Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia. Out loud what women are actually talking about
Speaker 2: On Wednesday, August the fourteenth, I'm Holly Wainwright.
Speaker 1: I'm mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 2: And on the show today, a TV presenter suffered a
Speaker 2: panic attack live on air and everyone's so very grateful.
Speaker 2: Also why gambling companies are on every Footy Jersey and
Speaker 2: Gina Reinhart is sitting poolside in Paris? Who fun sport?
Speaker 2: And why does it matter? And ditching scrolling sex, wine shopping,
Speaker 2: what's a dopamine detox? And could you survive? But first
Speaker 2: MEA Friedman? O Katie, Mister.
Speaker 3: Baby name regret is real and it's estimated that around
Speaker 3: ten percent of parents don't like the name that they
Speaker 3: chose for their child, as opposed to the percentage of
Speaker 3: people who don't like the name that celebrities choose for
Speaker 3: their children, which is probably much higher. This week, Kylie
Speaker 3: Jenna has given an interview to British Fogue where she
Speaker 3: explains the turmoil that she experienced when she named her
Speaker 3: second child, a son called Air spelled Are, but who
Speaker 3: used to be called Knight spelled knigt. She said, my
Speaker 3: son's name was actually Knight for a long time. And
Speaker 3: my daughter still to this day, is like, do you
Speaker 3: remember when Air's name was Night? And I'm like no,
Speaker 3: and she's like, that was so funny, Mum. I like
Speaker 3: Night better, and I'm like, you know what, We're not
Speaker 3: doing this again, and she went on that actually is funny.
Speaker 3: She went on to say that she really struggled to
Speaker 3: name her son and she was hysterically crying on the
Speaker 3: phone to her mother. Chris spelled Kris on the phone,
Speaker 3: and she said to her, Chris with k I can't
Speaker 3: figure out his name. Now. My advice to all my
Speaker 3: friends having children. He's picked the name before, because when
Speaker 3: the hormones hit, you can't make decisions. You can't, she cries.
Speaker 3: When I met him, he was just the most beautiful
Speaker 3: thing to me, and I couldn't believe just how perfect
Speaker 3: he was. I felt like such a failure that I
Speaker 3: couldn't name him. He deserved so much more than that.
Speaker 3: It just really triggered me.
Speaker 1: I don't often say that Kylie Jenner is relatable. I
Speaker 1: found this incredibly, very relatable. I think she's spot on
Speaker 1: the idea that you go through something like giving birth
Speaker 1: and then you're expected to make a rational, logical, administrative decision.
Speaker 3: With respect you have nine months.
Speaker 1: Yes, but a lot of people we were the same.
Speaker 1: We kind of went, oh, we'll meet her that last.
Speaker 1: When we look at her, we'll know. And I had
Speaker 1: no feelings either way. You're often incredibly sleep deprived. Luca
Speaker 1: was very committed to Luna. I ended up saying, yes,
Speaker 1: I had no feelings at the time. I still the
Speaker 1: name is like, she just is Luna. I think we
Speaker 1: probably give too much stock to a name. We do,
Speaker 1: But I don't feel strongly either. I just had no
Speaker 1: capacity to make a decision, which is what she's So.
Speaker 1: You don't have regret, No, I don't have regret. Do
Speaker 1: you want to know the breakdown of why people have regret?
Speaker 4: Yes.
Speaker 3: Of the people who regret it, twenty five percent say
Speaker 3: it's because the name is too common. Twenty what do
Speaker 3: you know, lunas? I think number one or two most
Speaker 3: common names. Twenty one percent of name regrettas say that
Speaker 3: it just doesn't feel right and twenty percent say that
Speaker 3: I never liked it. I was pressured into using it yep.
Speaker 3: Eleven percent say it causes problems with spelling or pronunciation,
Speaker 3: like air with an E, and eleven percent say it
Speaker 3: just doesn't suit my kid.
Speaker 2: I used to I think we both did. Me a
Speaker 2: work with someone who changed their baby's name after like
Speaker 2: a year, and it's more common than you think. And
Speaker 2: the thing is, is, just like everything about parenting, when
Speaker 2: you do that case in point, Kylie Jenner, a lot
Speaker 2: of people have a lot of feelings.
Speaker 3: I'm really angry.
Speaker 2: Why do they get so angry about that?
Speaker 3: Sofya Keisha changed her names. I don't know why people care.
Speaker 2: People care deeply.
Speaker 1: I think that's probably a threshold. What do we think
Speaker 1: it is?
Speaker 4: Like?
Speaker 5: Eight?
Speaker 1: Can you not change your name anymore?
Speaker 6: The thing is is.
Speaker 1: That my daughter still.
Speaker 2: One of the little triggers of why it probably irritate
Speaker 2: people is because it feels very vain, like I'm not
Speaker 2: saying that it is, but I can see why it does,
Speaker 2: because you know how you just said, Luna just is
Speaker 2: Luna and you don't really think about it. I think
Speaker 2: that's how most people feel about their kids' names. Is
Speaker 2: they like we liked it. At the time, we didn't
Speaker 2: really realize that we liked it because we're part of
Speaker 2: a culture where everybody likes it too, hence Luna, hence
Speaker 2: the fact that Matilda is usually in a sporting team
Speaker 2: with like five other Matilda's. Because of that particular moment
Speaker 2: was the name, and we thought we were being different.
Speaker 2: And I think most of us go, you suck it
Speaker 2: up and you deal with it. But if you've got
Speaker 2: the balls or the female version of balls to go, no,
Speaker 2: I don't like it. I'm going to change it. It feels that.
Speaker 3: I think that's the Manchester view, right view. Is why
Speaker 3: it makes people upset is because it's suddenly like, is
Speaker 3: that something that we can do? Is that something we're
Speaker 3: doing now? Because then it hadn't occurred to me that
Speaker 3: I could change my child's name, And now I've got
Speaker 3: the mental load of thinking maybe I got it wrong. True,
Speaker 3: I like the idea. You've made a decision, Okay, next, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: So if it's like, well, you could change it if
Speaker 3: you wanted to, too many choices.
Speaker 2: Oh, well, you could just give them the nickname like
Speaker 2: his called Night, but we call him a Why I
Speaker 2: don't care it's family. We just do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no one knows the Bethti forget. My uncle was
Speaker 1: tasked with the job of writing down the kid's name, Like,
Speaker 1: you know, the wife's just given birth. Can you go
Speaker 1: and do the forms? Filled out the forms wrong, middle
Speaker 1: and first came the wrong way around. Really, they're still
Speaker 1: pissed about it.
Speaker 3: It's hard when you're tired and you've got to fill
Speaker 3: out forms.
Speaker 2: Yeah, a man is halfway through doing his very public
Speaker 2: job when he has to put his hand up and say,
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I can't keep going.
Speaker 1: I need a minute.
Speaker 2: Nate Burned, the very popular weather reporter on ABC Breakfast,
Speaker 2: did exactly this in front of thousands of viewers on
Speaker 2: Tuesday morning and instantly became a viral video. Here's the
Speaker 2: audio of what happened.
Speaker 7: We've got big falls right through that part of the country,
Speaker 7: and we're going to see lots more rain in the
Speaker 7: days ahead. Actually going to need to stop for a second.
Speaker 7: Some of you may know that I occasionally get affected
Speaker 7: by some panic attacks, and actually that's happening right now. Lisa,
Speaker 7: maybe I could hand back to you.
Speaker 2: You certainly can date Nate's co workers, including Lisa Miller,
Speaker 2: who you heard there on that Grab immediately jumped in
Speaker 2: finished the weather for Nate and explained what was happening,
Speaker 2: reassuring views that he was fine.
Speaker 3: That was so hard to listen to him, Oh so
Speaker 3: hard to like. You can hear it start. You can
Speaker 3: hear him swallow, try to get it together, and you
Speaker 3: can hear his voice wobble, and you can hear him
Speaker 3: make that snap decision of I actually can't keep going
Speaker 3: because he tries to keep going and then he can't,
Speaker 3: and then to have the fortitude to be able to
Speaker 3: do a throw, I can't believe he was a co
Speaker 3: host to articulate that, I'm so impressed, very very impressive.
Speaker 2: It was immediately hailed as the textbook way to handle
Speaker 2: a coworker's mental health incident with sensitivity and grace by
Speaker 2: his colleagues, and then Nate himself came back on the
Speaker 2: show a little bit later to talk about it, as
Speaker 2: he'd done in an article for the ABC two years
Speaker 2: ago after it happened before, and he reassured the audience
Speaker 2: that he was fine.
Speaker 1: Very pleased to say that our wonderful colleague mate is.
Speaker 4: Back with this.
Speaker 7: Sorry if I gave anybody a bit of a scare there.
Speaker 1: Yes, not really, because you've been very honest before about
Speaker 1: getting panic attacks on air, and it's so great for
Speaker 1: people to know that it can happen to When.
Speaker 7: He gave me a scared because I thought I'd have
Speaker 7: to finish doing the weather report and I'm no good
Speaker 7: of that.
Speaker 1: Well, he was talking about Queensland, so.
Speaker 7: I was going to step up well, and today would
Speaker 7: be the day to do it. There's so much going
Speaker 7: on for Queensland. But thank you all so much for
Speaker 7: helping out.
Speaker 2: Here's a little bit of what he wrote in that
Speaker 2: story where he first explained his panic attacks. He said,
Speaker 2: I had my first ever panic attack on live TV.
Speaker 2: I was standing in one of my favorite places, doing
Speaker 2: the thing I love most. He went on to say,
Speaker 2: anxiety had never been an issue in my life before,
Speaker 2: even though high stress situations weren't a stranger. But this
Speaker 2: time I wasn't a naval officer moments away from running
Speaker 2: a warship aground, or standing in front of a stadium
Speaker 2: filled with twelve thousand people hosting my first internationally televised event.
Speaker 2: I thought that my career was over. Something was taking
Speaker 2: control of me without my permission or understanding, and it
Speaker 2: was preventing me from doing what made me me. I
Speaker 2: was stood down for the rest of the day. News
Speaker 2: Breakfast co host Madeline Morris very tactfully told the audience
Speaker 2: that the weather man is under the weather and I
Speaker 2: gathered by things and went straight to the doctor. Now
Speaker 2: Nate's not alone. This week, both Carrie Bickmore, radio host,
Speaker 2: TV presenter, cancer charity advocate all round Legend said that
Speaker 2: she had also suffered while doing her job. She said
Speaker 2: this on radio this week, and she played a little
Speaker 2: bit of audio of herself reading the news while suffering anxiety.
Speaker 2: Before then she jumps in and talks about it.
Speaker 6: And the fate of the English Siamese twins have been decided.
Speaker 6: A London courts ruled they can undergo surgery to separate them.
Speaker 6: Doctors are expected to wait a month. Though we have
Speaker 6: speed cameras on Army and Abs Sorrento, Southwest Highwi, Armadale Grade,
Speaker 6: Eastern Highway, Greenmound, Tonkin Highway, Morley, Enna, sav Rockingham and
Speaker 6: Orong Road Belmont.
Speaker 5: We don't need to know how the traffic's going back
Speaker 5: twenty years ago, but I still look back and think
Speaker 5: how did I do that? Because I was so consumed
Speaker 5: by this anxiety, and I didn't tell my family and
Speaker 5: friends about it because I think it felt quite significant
Speaker 5: in the scheme of some of the stuff that was
Speaker 5: happening in my life at the time. But I remember
Speaker 5: I would have them all afternoon when I was reading
Speaker 5: the news on Nova, and then all morning when I
Speaker 5: joined USY and Kate all those years ago. And I
Speaker 5: only told Kate Langbrook about it the other day and
Speaker 5: she was like, what are you talking about. I think
Speaker 5: I managed to get through that whole time without I
Speaker 5: just imagine people were having meetings in rooms going what
Speaker 5: Wronger though?
Speaker 3: Why does she sound like that?
Speaker 1: And why does she do that?
Speaker 5: She had no idea. I think it's interesting her first comment,
Speaker 5: which was why didn't you tell me? And I think
Speaker 5: that's the thing. I just wish I'd spoken to people
Speaker 5: about it back then, because she wouldn't have cared. She
Speaker 5: would have done nothing but helped me out.
Speaker 2: Carrie said that she had was on the verge of
Speaker 2: a panic attack pretty much every single time she went
Speaker 2: on air in any capacity on TV and radio for
Speaker 2: a good decade.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 2: Jackie I also backed up this morning, saying she'd had
Speaker 2: panic attacks for eighteen months after a negative drug experience.
Speaker 2: I want to understand something about this, right because this
Speaker 2: is obviously struck such a chord when Nate in particular
Speaker 2: has been so open about what he was going through,
Speaker 2: and there's something about seeing it with your own eyes.
Speaker 2: Is it possible do you think to avoid putting yourself
Speaker 2: in circumstances that would make you this anxious if you
Speaker 2: suffer from anxiety? Because put in the most base terms,
Speaker 2: and I want to be really careful not to sound
Speaker 2: dismissive or insensitive about it, but in a world where
Speaker 2: we're constantly urged to push yourself out of your comfort
Speaker 2: zone and do something every day that scares you and
Speaker 2: all those things, is there a way in which, like,
Speaker 2: if something about your job makes you hyper anxious, it
Speaker 2: might not be the right.
Speaker 1: Job for you. So what you're articulating, Holly, and I
Speaker 1: know that, or sort of being Devil's advocate is actually
Speaker 1: something that comes up in a lot of comment sections,
Speaker 1: So particularly the first time that Nate Burne came out
Speaker 1: with his story, a lot of the comments were like,
Speaker 1: why are your weather man? Why are you on live television?
Speaker 1: And I actually put it to some out louders we
Speaker 1: have a lot of out louders who are practicing psychologists,
Speaker 1: And I said, and I had a hunch because I've
Speaker 1: seen psychologists and studied it at UNI for a bit,
Speaker 1: but I just wanted their expertise. You know, you hear
Speaker 1: Kate Campbell talk about swimming and the stress.
Speaker 2: That that causes her to vomiting before they go on
Speaker 2: stage from nerves.
Speaker 1: And the psychologists said a few interesting things. They said,
Speaker 1: often the panic attack isn't as related to the situation
Speaker 1: you're in as you might think. So it isn't the
Speaker 1: live television, It isn't reading the weather that's causing the
Speaker 1: panic attack necessarily. And people who experience panic attacks will
Speaker 1: testify to this that they can happen when I mean,
Speaker 1: I've had them when I've sat down to rah or
Speaker 1: I've been totally by myself. And people who don't work
Speaker 1: in live television also have paying attacks all the time.
Speaker 1: And the other thing they'd said is that the advice
Speaker 1: a psychologist wouldn't give you is avoidance. So the thing
Speaker 1: that makes anxiety worse and panic attacks worse is avoidance.
Speaker 1: So I went to a psychologist about panic attacks, probably
Speaker 1: ten years ago, and we did exposure therapy that's part
Speaker 1: of CBT, and they gradually I'm not sure a psychologist
Speaker 1: if you were in this level of distress, they'd be like,
Speaker 1: go and do it again tomorrow. They help you and
Speaker 1: be a bit gentler. But it exacerbates anxiety to avoid it.
Speaker 1: And so I would hazard a guess that if Carrie
Speaker 1: Bickmore wasn't reading the news, if she was doing something else,
Speaker 1: those panic attacks still might present themselves. I think the
Speaker 1: reason that these stories go viral is because one thing
Speaker 1: that people get very self conscious about is how they appear.
Speaker 1: Because you feel like when you're in the midst of
Speaker 1: a panic attack, you actually I thought i'd had one.
Speaker 1: I once called an ambulance because I thought that I
Speaker 1: was dying. I thought I was having a heart attack.
Speaker 1: You think everyone can see your head exploding, and it
Speaker 1: is mortifying and shameful, and it's this dread. This You're
Speaker 1: so certain that you're dying in that moment that to
Speaker 1: actually see or hear someone else go through a panic
Speaker 1: attack sort of demystifies it and you go, oh, the
Speaker 1: world kept spinning, the sun rose next day. It wasn't
Speaker 1: the end of the world.
Speaker 3: And from the outside, if he hadn't have walked off,
Speaker 3: you wouldn't have known if he hadn't have said it. No,
Speaker 3: it's interesting when I've had panic attacks. I don't feel
Speaker 3: like I'm dying, but I feel such a level of
Speaker 3: terror that I can't even speak it. I can't even
Speaker 3: tell anyone. I would never have been able to say
Speaker 3: what Nate did, or in Carrie's case, tell a friend
Speaker 3: or a coworker, because it's really had to explain. But
Speaker 3: you're right, Jesse, in terms of I used to have
Speaker 3: panic attacks whenever I flew, and I could have decided
Speaker 3: to not fly, and I did minimize the amount of
Speaker 3: travel that I did for a really long time. And
Speaker 3: then I realized my life was getting smaller because anxiety
Speaker 3: will just attach itself to something else, and it did.
Speaker 3: Once I got over my fear of flying, my anxiety
Speaker 3: attached itself to a different fear. I think that what's
Speaker 3: so amazing about Nate doing this, And also a shout
Speaker 3: out to Lisa Miller for the way she was able
Speaker 3: to handle that, and I remember, this is not the
Speaker 3: first time that's happened to her. This also happened when
Speaker 3: she was hosting and life TV is so hard. She
Speaker 3: had a guest who was menopausal. She had a hot
Speaker 3: flush and she suddenly couldn't speak. And Lisa was also
Speaker 3: in the position there to just carry that through and
Speaker 3: give that person complete dignity and make it feel really normal.
Speaker 3: And that is an incredible art and an incredible skill.
Speaker 3: But I think Carrie back there wouldn't have seen anyone.
Speaker 3: No one spoke about anxiety. When I was having my
Speaker 3: panic attacks. It was in the earlier days of Mum
Speaker 3: and mea and I didn't want to tell anyone or
Speaker 3: write about it because I thought it would mean people
Speaker 3: would think I was crazy and people wouldn't take me seriously.
Speaker 3: The generosity of being public about something.
Speaker 1: Like that is huge. The other thing I thought was
Speaker 1: a note about what they both said the more you listened,
Speaker 1: and I urge people to read Nate Burne's article. It's
Speaker 1: really insightful. But the thing that they're almost scared them
Speaker 1: continued to scare them more than the stimulus was the
Speaker 1: possibility of having a panic attack again. So that's actually
Speaker 1: what the and then you're panicking about that, Yeah, so
Speaker 1: then when you get any of the symptoms like Nate
Speaker 1: the first time he had it, Interestingly, he was running
Speaker 1: late and you kind of had to run. And if
Speaker 1: you've had panic attacks and you feel out of breath,
Speaker 1: that can freak you out because you go, oh, no,
Speaker 1: i'm not, I'm not I'm not telling me I'm not
Speaker 1: having panic, and then you start to spiral, and then
Speaker 1: the physiological sense of panic start to trigger the brain,
Speaker 1: and then that's when it happens.
Speaker 3: It's also not possible to avoid everything that might trigger you.
Speaker 3: So for example, I have panic attacks when I have
Speaker 3: ultrasounds or any sort of scan because of a bad
Speaker 3: experience and a bad result that I got many many
Speaker 3: years ago. I didn't even realize that's why I would
Speaker 3: have them, Like it took my mum to sort of say, Darling,
Speaker 3: I think it's because that time you had the ultrasound
Speaker 3: and you lost the baby, Like I think that's what
Speaker 3: and I'm like, oh my god, yeah, like I had
Speaker 3: to almost sedate myself. But you can't not have a mammogram.
Speaker 3: You can't not have an ultrasound if you need one.
Speaker 3: So that's why I also, avoidance just isn't possible and
Speaker 3: it isn't helpful.
Speaker 2: I find all that, of course, absolutely enlightening and correct.
Speaker 2: The only thing I would say is that for some
Speaker 2: people work stress does really add to their anxiety, and
Speaker 2: there is no shame in saying I can't do this.
Speaker 2: And I'm not suggesting for even a split second that
Speaker 2: that's what Nate or Carry or anyone should not even
Speaker 2: for a second. But I mean, because panic attacks are
Speaker 2: kind of a bit different, right, but for lots of
Speaker 2: people who find themselves teetering on the edge of I mean,
Speaker 2: breakdown's a tough word. But you know, when I did
Speaker 2: that interview with Julie Goodwin and she was talking about
Speaker 2: how she felt she couldn't get off this professional flywheel
Speaker 2: that she was on of all this work that she
Speaker 2: had to do to keep everything going all the time,
Speaker 2: but she was inside, just completely in the grips of
Speaker 2: a terrible mental health crisis. And she said to her psychiatrist,
Speaker 2: but I can't stop. And she was like why, and
Speaker 2: she's like, because of the money, because of the mortgage,
Speaker 2: because of this is what I do. And her psychiatrist
Speaker 2: was like, you know, funerals cost a lot of money, too,
Speaker 2: you know, like which it seems like a very simplistic,
Speaker 2: extreme thing to say, But my point is just while
Speaker 2: I don't mean in any way to attach that to
Speaker 2: this conversation. There is no shame or stigma in not
Speaker 2: being able to carry on if you are struggling.
Speaker 3: No, that's really true.
Speaker 1: Is Australia about to ban gambling ads? And if so,
Speaker 1: could that mark the end of freeda air television? Are
Speaker 1: gambling ads keeping Australian support afloat? And does complete prohibition work? Anyway?
Speaker 1: Let's start at the beginning. An alliance of leading Australians
Speaker 1: has demanded the government totally ban gambling ads. Gambling losses
Speaker 1: in Australia. I didn't know this are among the highest
Speaker 1: per person in the world. They cost us an estimated
Speaker 1: twenty five billion dollars a year. Among the signatories of
Speaker 1: this alliance that was put to the government was Formerr
Speaker 1: PM John Howard, who said many Australians are alarmed about
Speaker 1: the proliferation of gambling advertising on our screens, which I
Speaker 1: think we can all agree as a fair statement. Labour
Speaker 1: MP Mike Freelander said a total advertising ban was a
Speaker 1: necessary health policy akin to controls on tobacco advertising, adding
Speaker 1: that gambling is a way of transferring billions of dollars
Speaker 1: from poor people to wealthy people. Yes, here's what Independent
Speaker 1: Senator David Pocock said this week.
Speaker 4: It's a betrayal of Australians. Eighty percent of Australians want this,
Speaker 4: and we have a government that doesn't have the guts
Speaker 4: to actually stand up to the gambling industry, doesn't have
Speaker 4: the imagination to actually work with TV. Where is the
Speaker 4: courage from from this labor government. Young men who have
Speaker 4: committed suicide because of the whole that they have got
Speaker 4: themselves into with gambling addictions, and.
Speaker 1: Jackie Lamby said this just for once to die, just
Speaker 1: for once. Put the future of our kids first.
Speaker 3: Put the future of our kids first. I am begging you,
Speaker 3: yay Jackie that I just endorse everything that she says
Speaker 3: and the emotion in her voice abs of friggin lootly.
Speaker 1: I love what she can get through in nine seconds.
Speaker 1: She's like, I only need nine seconds.
Speaker 3: Gets my point.
Speaker 1: That, But is it really that simple? Because on Q
Speaker 1: and A on Monday night, Bill Shorten said that free
Speaker 1: to air television needs the money from gambling ads to
Speaker 1: stay afloat.
Speaker 3: We should go fundme for free to air television because
Speaker 3: you know they're not making enough money, but you know
Speaker 3: what they are poor Australians. We are having billions of dollars.
Speaker 1: We will build, we will get gambling companies, but they
Speaker 1: hire a lot of Australians. A lot of people have
Speaker 1: jobs in these industries. And if free to air was
Speaker 1: to go down the toilet, a lot of people lose
Speaker 1: their jobs.
Speaker 2: And also when we say free to way, they also
Speaker 2: been streaming, Like I watch a lot of streaming TV
Speaker 2: and there is a gambling ad every two seconds.
Speaker 3: To be clear, if your business is held up by
Speaker 3: gambling advertising, you need to rel look at your business model,
Speaker 3: take some hard decisions. We don't accept gambling advertising at Mammamea.
Speaker 3: Would we be more profitable.
Speaker 1: If we did?
Speaker 3: Hell yes yes, But could we hire more people?
Speaker 1: Hell yes yes, But Mama Maya is targeted at women.
Speaker 1: A lot of gambling advertising, if not all of it,
Speaker 1: is really appealing to men, so young men and young men. Right.
Speaker 1: So if I'm making my money off young men and
Speaker 1: a gambling company is going, I'm going to give you
Speaker 1: all of this money, which is a year's worth of revenue,
Speaker 1: it's a hard thing to say no to.
Speaker 3: You know what else you make a lot of money from,
Speaker 3: or you used to tobacco advertising.
Speaker 2: This is the most common comparison, and it's a very
Speaker 2: good one because gambling is addictive. Gambling is, as you said, Jesse,
Speaker 2: costing a lot of people, and a lot of young
Speaker 2: men who can't afford it, and not only young men,
Speaker 2: but a lot of young men an enormous amount of money.
Speaker 2: They are advertising in a way that's very attractive to
Speaker 2: attract a new recruit to this addiction. You can do
Speaker 2: it on your phone, you can do it in private.
Speaker 2: It's a very good comparison with your mates to part
Speaker 2: of makeship. It's very good comparison to tobacco advertising. One
Speaker 2: of the issues is, though, and I guess this is
Speaker 2: one of the arguments they'd say, is that Australians spend
Speaker 2: so much money on gambling, Like they spend billions and
Speaker 2: billions and billions of dollars.
Speaker 1: So under Labour's proposal, gambling ads would be banned online
Speaker 1: in kids programming. That seems like sense one to find kid.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, because the problem with kids advertising is I
Speaker 2: see lots of gambling ads on family TV. Okay, it
Speaker 2: wouldn't fall into like kids advertising, but let's say Lego
Speaker 2: survivor Lego Masters Summit like stuff that I watch with
Speaker 2: the kids and sport which we all watch with our kids.
Speaker 1: So it would be during live sports broadcasting. Let's say
Speaker 1: you're sitting down, you're watching the NRL or the AFL
Speaker 1: live sports broadcasting in an hour either side. They're saying
Speaker 1: no gambling ads, but it can still appear during TV programming,
Speaker 1: but a lot of people are going hang on that.
Speaker 1: It means that at another time, let's say at ten PM,
Speaker 1: that you can put your gambling ads there. It'll keep
Speaker 1: it afloat. You can still show the sport, but we're
Speaker 1: not showing them together because kids are watching the sport. There's,
Speaker 1: of course the other issue, which is maybe there's not
Speaker 1: gambling ads, but I turn on and I want to
Speaker 1: watch them. At Manly Sea Eagles, they've got points Bet
Speaker 1: written on their jersey sponsorship and you've also got points
Speaker 1: Bet Stadium, which is where the Cronulla Sharks play.
Speaker 3: So what does that tell you if they're advertising on
Speaker 3: these programs and they're advertising on the players.
Speaker 1: It tells you that it works.
Speaker 3: It tells you that by doing that, more people spend
Speaker 3: more money with these companies and more Australians are put
Speaker 3: into financial hardship, often with tragic consequences.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, I'm totally with you, and I think we
Speaker 1: all are.
Speaker 3: And I think that with you're very angry, but Jesse,
Speaker 3: You're like, Okay.
Speaker 4: I am.
Speaker 3: I'm very angry because I am very angry because I'm
Speaker 3: also a media owners. So this idea of and we
Speaker 3: have to make our decisions all the time about the
Speaker 3: advertising that we accept or don't accept, and to just
Speaker 3: say well, our business depends on it, I don't think
Speaker 3: that's good enough.
Speaker 1: These are the exact arguments made about tobacco. And you
Speaker 1: know what, if Freda Air is dying, then maybe we
Speaker 1: just bring back the tobacco exactly.
Speaker 3: And these media companies have all these lobbyists in Canberra
Speaker 3: talking to Bill Short and talking to all these people saying,
Speaker 3: oh no, it'll mean so many jobs.
Speaker 1: Well, what does it.
Speaker 3: Mean if it doesn't happen? What doesn't mean if we
Speaker 3: don't ban these ads?
Speaker 2: Although I agree with you, and I do genuinely agree
Speaker 2: with you, it infuriates me how like my kids can
Speaker 2: literally parrot all the words to all the gambling ads
Speaker 2: and that is scary, So I can mind it, and
Speaker 2: I don't even know where they see them clearly on subliminal,
Speaker 2: you know it's going in. I guess if I was
Speaker 2: putting a Devil's Advocate argument on it, I'd say, with
Speaker 2: that number of Ozzie spending that much money on it
Speaker 2: all the time, they clearly love it. There's a portion
Speaker 2: of the population who have problem and addiction.
Speaker 3: Do you know what people love?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, okay, let me finish my sentence. Cigarettes and
Speaker 2: alcohol and social media.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 2: There are lots of things that prop up our economies
Speaker 2: that are bad for people. So it's like, you know,
Speaker 2: the debate that's going on at the moment all over
Speaker 2: the world about what kind of restrictions we should be
Speaker 2: putting on social media and phone news for young people
Speaker 2: because that's also very damaging for their mental health. So
Speaker 2: it's like there are all kinds of pockets of our
Speaker 2: global economy that are held up by things that are
Speaker 2: basically damaging, and this is one of them. And I
Speaker 2: agree wholeheartedly that it needs to be very strictly regulated.
Speaker 2: But I guess one of the arguments is I'm an adult,
Speaker 2: choose what I do with my money. Lardie Blardi blood.
Speaker 2: They do still let alcohol advertise around sport, not cigarettes,
Speaker 2: but alcohol, and that's interesting too, because there's an enormous
Speaker 2: portion of population who have massive problems with alcohol addiction.
Speaker 2: The counter argument, and again it's not mine, is are
Speaker 2: we just going to impede everybody's choices and treat everybody
Speaker 2: like a child rather than let them make their own calls?
Speaker 2: I guess that would probably be a generous reach.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what do you think about alcohol advertising during sport,
Speaker 1: especially given the say spike, you know, great final state
Speaker 1: of origin spike in domestic violence because men come home
Speaker 1: having drunk too much alcohol. Like, what do you think
Speaker 1: about that?
Speaker 3: I think that there are responsible ways to drink.
Speaker 2: The sports thing is fascinating because in England they have
Speaker 2: banned the shirts and the gambling companies from being directly
Speaker 2: involved in the sport, and the world hasn't ended, and
Speaker 2: the Premier League still makes a lot of money and
Speaker 2: they still sell the broadcasting rights for bajillions of dollars.
Speaker 2: So you know, it is a bit, as you say me,
Speaker 2: it's a bit of a furfey that like, everything will
Speaker 2: end and it is insidious that if you watch a
Speaker 2: sporting game someone will kick a goal. We cut straight
Speaker 2: to a gambling ad, then we cut to another bit
Speaker 2: that looks like commentary, but actually it's brought to you
Speaker 2: by gambling ad branded content. It is insidious.
Speaker 1: I've heard lobbyists say you can give them a few
Speaker 1: years to kind of make some plans about changing the
Speaker 1: advertising model or whatever. It's not going to be like
Speaker 1: a click of the fingers, and that seems fair enough.
Speaker 1: But on this because I've been thinking a lot about
Speaker 1: ethics and sport and who funds it, especially in light
Speaker 1: of the Olympics, which we've said, you know, brought everyone together.
Speaker 1: And you might have noticed during the swimming when Australia
Speaker 1: won so many gold medals, especially Australian female athletes, they
Speaker 1: would go to the stands and there was a smiling
Speaker 1: Gena reyn Hart. Gena Ryan Hart is of course the
Speaker 1: executive chairwoman of Hancock Prospecting. She's made her money in mining,
Speaker 1: which is ethically fraught. But the commentators couldn't say a
Speaker 1: thing about Jana Reineheart at the swimming because she has
Speaker 1: funded Australian swimming for years. Basically, even like Kate Campbell
Speaker 1: has come out and said she saved Australian swimming.
Speaker 4: Hi versus Rehnhart.
Speaker 5: It's Kate Campbell here, thank you so much for your
Speaker 5: support of this wonderful team. You have been a number
Speaker 5: one cheerleader every stroke of the way.
Speaker 1: They've all said that they wouldn't be as successful without
Speaker 1: her financial and emotional support. She donates directly to the swimmers,
Speaker 1: basically meaning that they don't have to work other jobs.
Speaker 1: They can train, like really really hard throughout the years
Speaker 1: and get these record gold medals. How do we feel
Speaker 1: about that? Because the swimmers, even they know how it works,
Speaker 1: they know it's in exchange. So even after they won
Speaker 1: all their gold medals, there was a cruise. Gina took
Speaker 1: them on a cruise and they al said, thank you Gina.
Speaker 2: It's really interesting this because you can see this like
Speaker 2: conflict in some of the athletes, in particular the younger
Speaker 2: ones in this like genuflecting to Gina, to your benefactor
Speaker 2: or patron, yes to your patron, yes, which is a
Speaker 2: very it's as old as time right, like wealthy people
Speaker 2: subsidizing arts, subsidizing sports, subsidizing events, and then your job
Speaker 2: is to just not say anything mean about them. It
Speaker 2: just gets Gina because one of the interesting things about
Speaker 2: why does Gina do this. She's got a lot of
Speaker 2: money and you know, I'm sure it's fun to decide
Speaker 2: what you want to do with it. Is there has
Speaker 2: to be a level here where it's in exchange for something, yeah,
Speaker 2: and it seems to be in exchange for influence, cultural influence,
Speaker 2: because we know how Australia feels about the swimming, particularly
Speaker 2: every four years. And in fact there will be a
Speaker 2: very strong argument being mounted right now that Australia's best
Speaker 2: ever Olympic results are a direct result of Gina. There
Speaker 2: has been a report I read this investigation in the
Speaker 2: Herald that was sort of trying to uncover what some
Speaker 2: of this influence might look like. And she famously had
Speaker 2: a big falling out with Swimming Australia a few years
Speaker 2: ago and withdrew funding from that organization, but carried on
Speaker 2: a partnership with Swimming Queensland and as you said, Jesse,
Speaker 2: going directly to the swimmers instead. They seem to have
Speaker 2: been patching that up because I think they had to.
Speaker 2: But for example, at that time there were reports that
Speaker 2: Hancock Prospecting were asking for things like could Swimming Australia
Speaker 2: not support Pride months in a public way, could they
Speaker 2: take the acknowledgment of country off their website and off
Speaker 2: their Instagram posts and things like that. Wow, and then
Speaker 2: we talked about this.
Speaker 3: I can't remember.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure that they did because I'm not sure
Speaker 2: if it was that direct. When the Herald asked Hancock
Speaker 2: Prospecting directly, is it true that you asked for those
Speaker 2: The statements that came back were like, Hancock Prospecting doesn't
Speaker 2: believe that politics has any place in sports. So they
Speaker 2: didn't say yes or no. They just said this is
Speaker 2: our thing, right.
Speaker 1: And it's like when there was.
Speaker 2: That farua is how I say fual around the Gina
Speaker 2: ryin Hart portraits in the National Gallery. We went into
Speaker 2: this on the show, so I won't go into it
Speaker 2: in big detail, but you like it. She did like it,
Speaker 2: and an email was sent out to all her swimmers,
Speaker 2: her swimmers or the swimmers that said athletes. It has
Speaker 2: come to our attention that there are some portraits of
Speaker 2: missus Rhyinhart displayed in both the National and South Australian
Speaker 2: Art Galleries that she, rightly so in brackets, finds offensive
Speaker 2: and insulting. I've attached them here so you can see them.
Speaker 2: We will be reaching out to the CEO of the
Speaker 2: galleries to express our concerns with the pieces that they
Speaker 2: do not represent the image or the reputation that is
Speaker 2: deserved as the patron of our sport, to assist in
Speaker 2: the message. It would be great to weight behind it
Speaker 2: as a collective group, giving that you are athletes that
Speaker 2: she loves and supports so generously. They said it wasn't compulsory,
Speaker 2: but it would be appreciated, and swimmers like Kyle Chalmers did.
Speaker 2: They came out publicly and said, I think she deserves
Speaker 2: to be praised and I think these portraits are unfair
Speaker 2: and without her sponsorship we'd have nothing. So then she
Speaker 2: has these big galas at her mansion. When the swimmers
Speaker 2: all come up and get awards from her, she gives
Speaker 2: them MacBooks and treats and they all have to say
Speaker 2: nice things. Like Ariann Tipmas went up and said, you know,
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have anything without you. So it's influence on
Speaker 2: a big part of Australian culture. And is there a
Speaker 2: problem with that or not?
Speaker 3: Mia, Well, yeah, I mean in the same way that
Speaker 3: the gambling companies have influenced in commercial television and if
Speaker 3: you're a big advertiser, depending on the media organization, but
Speaker 3: why do you think the media companies are lobbying politicians
Speaker 3: to block this bill, to block any legislation that could
Speaker 3: turn the tap off.
Speaker 1: So it is really.
Speaker 3: Insidious, and I think that you don't even realize it.
Speaker 3: Like the stuff that you were just saying about we
Speaker 3: don't want swimming Australia to participate in Pride Month, that
Speaker 3: is really one person's view. She's buying cultural influence.
Speaker 1: Quite literally, I've been thinking a lot. I was speaking
Speaker 1: to a friend over the weekend about imagining the last
Speaker 1: three years where the swimmers get pulled into private meetings
Speaker 1: and it's like, repeat up to me. We love Gina,
Speaker 1: we love we can't say anything bad about Gina. And
Speaker 1: someone's like, I just want to do my backstroke. I
Speaker 1: don't like, I don't want to get into all of
Speaker 1: this t.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, we know what happened when she tried
Speaker 3: to sponsor the Diamonds. The Diamonds and Nepal Australia wanted
Speaker 3: to take the money because they.
Speaker 1: Really needed it.
Speaker 3: The sport was in difficult financial straits and the players
Speaker 3: were like, we're not comfortable with this person whose father
Speaker 3: had said that Aboriginal people should be sterilized where uncomfortable
Speaker 3: with wearing his name Hancock prospecting on our outfits whatever
Speaker 3: they're called sporting uniforms while we play thought and so
Speaker 3: she withdrew the money. Yeah, because why she wouldn't disavow
Speaker 3: those comments.
Speaker 1: I wonder how we'd feel about our athletes, you know,
Speaker 1: turning up to the opening ceremony with Hancock pect like
Speaker 1: emblazoned on on their front or whatever. And I in
Speaker 1: these situations either way, I actually feel for the athletes,
Speaker 1: because the athletes, even the rugby league player with points
Speaker 1: bet on his shirt, Yeah, he just wants to go
Speaker 1: and play the star he loves and he wants to
Speaker 1: get paid for it so that he can do it
Speaker 1: full time. And the kind of complicated, high level stuff.
Speaker 1: I just think it's ethically frat, but it is really
Speaker 1: really complicated. I acknowledge that.
Speaker 2: One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
Speaker 2: and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link
Speaker 2: in the show notes to get us in your ears
Speaker 2: five days a week, and a huge thank you to
Speaker 2: all our current subscribers.
Speaker 3: You may have heard or seen something about doing a
Speaker 3: dopamine detox it's become a bit of a viral wellness
Speaker 3: trend in the last little while, and so we wanted
Speaker 3: to unpack what it involves and who needs one. First
Speaker 3: of all, what is dopamine. It is the brain's own
Speaker 3: reward system. So if you think of it as the
Speaker 3: brain's way of saying, Hey, that felt good, let's do
Speaker 3: it again. And it's the neurotransmitter that's responsible for feelings
Speaker 3: of pleasure and reward and motivation. Whether it's biting into
Speaker 3: your favorite dessert or achieving a personal goal, Dopamine is
Speaker 3: there cheering you on and keeping you coming back for more.
Speaker 3: So having the activities that give you this dopamine hit
Speaker 3: as part of your lifestyle allows dopamine to be released
Speaker 3: through your brain's reward system, and so as a result,
Speaker 3: the pleasure will lift your mood and it will make
Speaker 3: you feel more motivated and focused and less stressed. And
Speaker 3: dopamine can even act as a bit of a pain reliever.
Speaker 3: So the obvious question is why we choose to detox
Speaker 3: from feelings of pleasure. That sounds very puritan Well, the
Speaker 3: problem with dopamine inducing activities is that we come to
Speaker 3: rely on them too much. Talking about addiction. They can
Speaker 3: leave us craving more and more and more, and it's
Speaker 3: like trying to fill a bucket with a hole in it.
Speaker 3: According to clinical psychologists, they say that excessive engagement in
Speaker 3: sort of activities that give you a dopamine hit, especially
Speaker 3: when they involve instant gratification, can prompt over stimulation of
Speaker 3: your dopamine system, and that can lead to addictive behaviors
Speaker 3: and negative consequences. And they also say that when you
Speaker 3: become overly reliant on dopamine inducing activities, gambling is a
Speaker 3: really good example, it can dull our sensitivity to pleasure.
Speaker 3: So they say that you know, if you look at
Speaker 3: things liken or gambling to use extremes, the high that
Speaker 3: you get can mean that you're constantly chasing a higher
Speaker 3: and higher high, and so called normal pleasures just don't
Speaker 3: give you that hit of dopamine. So dopamine detox means
Speaker 3: that you fast from dopamine producing activities or anything that
Speaker 3: gives you pleasure. That sounds horrendous, and the idea of
Speaker 3: it is that you decrease reward sensitivity. Although it's important
Speaker 3: to say there's no scientific evidence to support the concept
Speaker 3: of a dopamine detox. It's really just kind of an
Speaker 3: Internet thing that people are talking about. So, for example,
Speaker 3: we spoke on the show a little while ago about
Speaker 3: raw dogging on flights. So our phones are probably the
Speaker 3: biggest hit of dopamine that we get. Everyone gets, whether
Speaker 3: you're checking things, scrolling, all the different ways that our
Speaker 3: phone relies on us being addicted by giving us those
Speaker 3: little hits of dopamine that we're constantly looking for, which
Speaker 3: is why we end up doom scrolling, because we're scrolling
Speaker 3: and scrolling looking for the hit and thinking, I'll just
Speaker 3: stay a bit longer in case I get that hit
Speaker 3: because I need more. If you do a dopamine detox
Speaker 3: and you're trying to, for example, limit your screen time,
Speaker 3: which is one way of doing it, the typical timeframe
Speaker 3: is doing it for two to four weeks, says a
Speaker 3: doctor who was quoted in an article about this. He
Speaker 3: says that you might feel irritable and moody during the
Speaker 3: first week or two as you reduce your engagement with
Speaker 3: the feel good activities. Jesse, do you need a dopamine detox?
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have called it this, but I do this
Speaker 1: all the time because I'm very aware of it rather
Speaker 1: than dopamine. The way I think about it is like
Speaker 1: over stimulation or over arousal. In order to feel stimulated.
Speaker 1: If I am on my couch and I go all right,
Speaker 1: in order for me not to feel bored, I have
Speaker 1: to have my phone, my laptop, my TV on and
Speaker 1: music going, and also half reading a book. That's a problem.
Speaker 1: And I don't think that's good for me or my
Speaker 1: brain all the way I live my life. So I
Speaker 1: will consciously go all right, we're taking down the arousal
Speaker 1: so that I can do the things that because then
Speaker 1: of course when I get into bed and open my book,
Speaker 1: of course that's not going to stimulate because where's the dopamine.
Speaker 3: Or sit on the floor to read a book with
Speaker 3: your child.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's parenting, I think is a good example,
Speaker 1: because parenting a child for a day is a dop
Speaker 1: for meat because even at work, right, you've got the
Speaker 1: slack messages, and you've got your cup of coffee or
Speaker 1: like all the little things that kind of keep you going,
Speaker 1: the almost little treat culture of.
Speaker 2: It for it. Sorry, I'm just trying to understand. For
Speaker 2: it to qualify as to op means you have to
Speaker 2: like it. Or is it just that you're addicted to it?
Speaker 2: Because so say, I'm as guilty as this is everybody
Speaker 2: constantly looking at my phone, look at my phone, looking phone.
Speaker 2: But it also makes me feel really overwhelmed when my
Speaker 2: Slack messages are going bing bing bing, and my text
Speaker 2: messages and I do it all the time, but it's
Speaker 2: not like I go, oh, goody my phone being and
Speaker 2: I generally.
Speaker 1: But you're still getting a dopamine hit because it's it's
Speaker 1: making stimulation.
Speaker 3: And it's holding your attention, and you're right, when you're
Speaker 3: getting really overwhelmed, it means that you've got too much
Speaker 3: of it.
Speaker 1: And I remember I used to tutor kids and you know,
Speaker 1: try to get them to write an essay, and they
Speaker 1: would be sitting in their room and they'd go, yeah,
Speaker 1: I've been trying to write my essay. And they'd have
Speaker 1: music on, they'd have a stress ball, all these different
Speaker 1: points often phone, laptop, eleven tabs open. And I was like, well,
Speaker 1: you're not going to be able to write your essay
Speaker 1: like that because this is all antithetical to focus, because
Speaker 1: you're getting dopamine from so many different points of stimulus
Speaker 1: that it's going to be way too boring for you
Speaker 1: to do anything. And this is where the issue actually comes.
Speaker 1: Is anything that's purposeful or meaningful or goal oriented you
Speaker 1: can't achieve because dopamine's getting in the way. Because there
Speaker 1: are ten things that are going to make you feel
Speaker 1: better than doing the essay right now, But you should
Speaker 1: do the essay right now because it's better for the
Speaker 1: long term. So it's also about hedonism.
Speaker 3: I think it's about the attention economy and how the
Speaker 3: digital world has made all of us addicted to dopamine
Speaker 3: because everything about it is it rewards instant gratification, and
Speaker 3: it's built on instant gratification, and the things that you
Speaker 3: talk about reading a book, doing an assignment, there's no
Speaker 3: instant gratification. They're just a hard slog and there's not
Speaker 3: a lot of dopamine in the short term involved, like
Speaker 3: it's I'll give you some examples of low stimulus or
Speaker 3: low dopamine activities. Examples include meditation, gentle exercise, reading in moderation.
Speaker 3: That's exactly how I don't know how to read. I
Speaker 3: only know how to read like hard and fast, spending
Speaker 3: time in nature, all the things I hate. Engaging in
Speaker 3: these activities during your detox helps maintain a calmer and
Speaker 3: more focused state of mind.
Speaker 1: They say, you know what else? You know what else?
Speaker 1: Most of those tasks don't have attention instant gratification aside
Speaker 1: is you don't have to pay for them. So yeah,
Speaker 1: this is also about consumerism. This is about the attention economy, yes,
Speaker 1: but it's also about what you can buy. Because if
Speaker 1: where all one purchase away from happiness, which is what
Speaker 1: capitalism selves are us that if we just buy that
Speaker 1: one more thing, we're gonna be happy. Then we're constantly
Speaker 1: on this flywheel of just next, next, next. But the
Speaker 1: things that you named is like, there's this difference between
Speaker 1: dopamine and happiness.
Speaker 3: Do you like doing those things?
Speaker 1: I love doing those things.
Speaker 2: I also also ADHD affects this right me. You don't
Speaker 2: say they're feeling like in any way bad that You're like,
Speaker 2: I don't like that stuff. There must be something wrong
Speaker 2: with me.
Speaker 1: You know that that's not true, Like you know that's
Speaker 1: not true.
Speaker 2: And we talked about this on one of our subs
Speaker 2: episodes last week, and then I talked about it on Friday.
Speaker 2: But the thing I worry about about this is putting
Speaker 2: like moral value almost on the things that bring you pleasure.
Speaker 2: Because one of the things that I've really come to
Speaker 2: understand about judging this kind of stuff is, you know
Speaker 2: the scenario that you explained at the beginning of this
Speaker 2: jesse where you're like, you're on your couch with your
Speaker 2: book and your TV and your phone, and I kind
Speaker 2: of do that to myself, but then I begin to
Speaker 2: feel a bit sick, and so I have to m claustrophobic. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's not how it makes you feel, is it. Like
Speaker 2: you've explained this to me lots of times and so
Speaker 2: of other people that like that makes you feel calmer.
Speaker 3: So that so unable to focus better.
Speaker 2: So for me to sit there and say to somebody
Speaker 2: to say to you, like, you know what you should
Speaker 2: do me, you should turn everything off and go for a.
Speaker 1: Walk in the park.
Speaker 2: Like that isn't necessary. I mean maybe it is, I
Speaker 2: don't know, but I don't think that is going to
Speaker 2: make you feel better. And feeling like you should be
Speaker 2: doing that is making you.
Speaker 3: Feel worse, right anxious exactly.
Speaker 2: The language of detox, which is borrowed obviously from all
Speaker 2: addictive stuff, and we'd say that giving up alcohol when
Speaker 2: you've got an issue with it is incredibly difficult and challenging,
Speaker 2: and you have to push through it to get to
Speaker 2: a good place. God, maybe not even a good place,
Speaker 2: a stable, steady place. Are we saying by using the
Speaker 2: word detox in this context? Are we saying that Mia
Speaker 2: has to close all her tabs and go and sit
Speaker 2: in a park, even if that makes her really anxious
Speaker 2: and unhappy, because eventually she's going to see the light.
Speaker 2: That's not how your brain works, right, see the light.
Speaker 3: I think the interesting thing about what you just said
Speaker 3: is about how you two actually like those things. So
Speaker 3: those low dopamine activities, your baseline is that you enjoy them.
Speaker 3: I've always detested them, and I have always felt that
Speaker 3: it's a moral failing you. Now everyone's like, go outside
Speaker 3: and touch grass, and you know, go for a walk
Speaker 3: on the beach and try meditation. Learning that I had
Speaker 3: ADHD and learning what ADHD is. It's essentially a dysfunctional
Speaker 3: reward system.
Speaker 1: Or it's about dopamine right.
Speaker 3: One hundred percent. So it's a completely dysfunctional dopamine reward system.
Speaker 3: Because we don't naturally produce enough of it, we have
Speaker 3: to look for it externally. It might be taking risks,
Speaker 3: it might be jumping around, it might be fidget spinners.
Speaker 3: We need more stimulation than the average bear. It's either
Speaker 3: we don't produce it enough naturally or we don't use
Speaker 3: it sufficiently. So what ADHD medication does is that it
Speaker 3: are officially gives you dopamine, which helps you concentrate. Right, So,
Speaker 3: if you even look at caffeine, caffeine in someone who
Speaker 3: doesn't have ADHD is a stimulant. Caffeine for someone who
Speaker 3: does have ADHD is a stimulant, but it also helps
Speaker 3: you focus, and that's a big difference.
Speaker 1: What I've always found strange about you is that so.
Speaker 3: Many, so many you can't go on all day.
Speaker 1: So true is that even though you're addicted to dopamine
Speaker 1: and you wear your bright colors and you've got your
Speaker 1: fidgets and you've got your phone, you still get the
Speaker 1: big things done. And to me, that's why I hate
Speaker 1: the distractions, because I feel like they're going to stop
Speaker 1: me from getting the big things done. But you're able
Speaker 1: to use the adrenaline. The whole thing about the reason
Speaker 1: why we were detox off dopamine is of what we're
Speaker 1: missing out on. But I'm not sure you're missing out
Speaker 1: on me.
Speaker 2: That's why it can't be one size fits all.
Speaker 3: No, But I am because my dopamine, my biggest dopamine
Speaker 3: hit his work. So when you say I get the
Speaker 3: big things done, I get the work big things done.
Speaker 3: Also because I don't have a choice because I'm co
Speaker 3: owned the business, but I get the work things done.
Speaker 3: I've got an enormous tank for work. It gives me
Speaker 3: a dope mein hit.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 3: There are a lot of people who work in jobs
Speaker 3: where they get no dopamine out of their job at all.
Speaker 3: It doesn't mean I love every minute of it, but
Speaker 3: I find it very energizing and it's interesting to me.
Speaker 3: What I don't get done are a lot of the
Speaker 3: things that I really need to get done, like registering
Speaker 3: my car or cooking dinners that I just can't get
Speaker 3: done because there's never been any dopamine in it for me.
Speaker 3: So I think the way to know if you should
Speaker 3: do a dopamin detox or not, like anything, is your
Speaker 3: life unmanageable? Like is it difficult? And when you both
Speaker 3: talk about how you feel when it's just a bit much,
Speaker 3: and then you do need to get back to that baseline.
Speaker 2: That that's when my life becomes a money overwhelm.
Speaker 3: It gives you something rather than going for a walk
Speaker 3: just doesn't give me anything, and I don't have time.
Speaker 3: You might need to recalibrate your levels of dopamine, but
Speaker 3: when you have ADHD your whole life, your every waking minute.
Speaker 3: It is about trying to manage your dopamine levels in
Speaker 3: a way that's constructive, not destructive.
Speaker 2: Very interesting, Yeah, out Ladders.
Speaker 3: Will put in our newsletter this week some links to
Speaker 3: a few articles about this, because as always, I mean,
Speaker 3: I know, we're not saying you should detox from anything
Speaker 3: like medical, but never do anything extreme or anything any
Speaker 3: wellness trend that you see on the internet without really
Speaker 3: looking into it, because it just might not be for you.
Speaker 1: Will Taylor formally endorsed Kamala Harris or has she already?
Speaker 2: When you say Taylor you mean.
Speaker 1: Shere me needs the first name as opposed to the
Speaker 1: potential future president of the United States? Or has she already?
Speaker 1: In yesterday's subscriber episode, we unpacked all the latest from
Speaker 1: the US election. We want to know if you're interested
Speaker 1: in this, because we could talk about the US election
Speaker 1: all day. A lot has happened. Trump is losing his
Speaker 1: mind a little bit we've had.
Speaker 3: I so love that you guys are on this train
Speaker 3: and that I'm back on it. So subscribers, we know
Speaker 3: that the US politics isn't for everyone. Tried making it
Speaker 3: a subscriber episode this week. Gosh, we had a good time.
Speaker 3: We'll put a link in the show notes if you
Speaker 3: want to have a.
Speaker 2: Listen, Yes, go and listen. If you like it, tell
Speaker 2: us we want to know. A massive thank you to
Speaker 2: all of you out louderus for listening to our show
Speaker 2: today and every time you do it. We really appreciate it,
Speaker 2: and of course to our fabulous team for putting it together.
Speaker 2: We're going to be back in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 1: Bye bye bye. Shout out to any Mum and Mia
Speaker 1: subscribers listening. If you love the show and you want
Speaker 1: to support us, subscribing to MoMA Mia is the very
Speaker 1: best way.
Speaker 6: To do so.
Speaker 1: There's a link in the episode description.