WEBVTT - The TV Presenters Who Had A Very Bad Day At Work 0:00:10.327 --> 0:00:13.047 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 0:00:13.727 --> 0:00:16.767 Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:16.807 --> 0:00:23.527 that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to 0:00:23.567 --> 0:00:26.407 Mamma Mia. Out loud what women are actually talking about 0:00:26.447 --> 0:00:30.287 On Wednesday, August the fourteenth, I'm Holly Wainwright. 0:00:29.927 --> 0:00:32.167 I'm mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens. 0:00:32.367 --> 0:00:35.367 And on the show today, a TV presenter suffered a 0:00:35.407 --> 0:00:39.407 panic attack live on air and everyone's so very grateful. 0:00:40.047 --> 0:00:43.247 Also why gambling companies are on every Footy Jersey and 0:00:43.327 --> 0:00:46.847 Gina Reinhart is sitting poolside in Paris? Who fun sport? 0:00:46.887 --> 0:00:51.847 And why does it matter? And ditching scrolling sex, wine shopping, 0:00:52.087 --> 0:00:56.167 what's a dopamine detox? And could you survive? But first 0:00:56.327 --> 0:00:58.047 MEA Friedman? O Katie, Mister. 0:00:58.367 --> 0:01:01.727 Baby name regret is real and it's estimated that around 0:01:01.767 --> 0:01:04.727 ten percent of parents don't like the name that they 0:01:04.807 --> 0:01:07.847 chose for their child, as opposed to the percentage of 0:01:07.887 --> 0:01:11.007 people who don't like the name that celebrities choose for 0:01:11.047 --> 0:01:14.887 their children, which is probably much higher. This week, Kylie 0:01:14.927 --> 0:01:17.527 Jenna has given an interview to British Fogue where she 0:01:17.607 --> 0:01:22.047 explains the turmoil that she experienced when she named her 0:01:22.127 --> 0:01:27.567 second child, a son called Air spelled Are, but who 0:01:27.647 --> 0:01:32.087 used to be called Knight spelled knigt. She said, my 0:01:32.127 --> 0:01:34.127 son's name was actually Knight for a long time. And 0:01:34.167 --> 0:01:35.687 my daughter still to this day, is like, do you 0:01:35.727 --> 0:01:38.727 remember when Air's name was Night? And I'm like no, 0:01:39.287 --> 0:01:41.527 and she's like, that was so funny, Mum. I like 0:01:41.687 --> 0:01:43.807 Night better, and I'm like, you know what, We're not 0:01:43.887 --> 0:01:48.647 doing this again, and she went on that actually is funny. 0:01:48.807 --> 0:01:50.607 She went on to say that she really struggled to 0:01:50.647 --> 0:01:53.287 name her son and she was hysterically crying on the 0:01:53.287 --> 0:01:57.127 phone to her mother. Chris spelled Kris on the phone, 0:01:57.287 --> 0:02:00.247 and she said to her, Chris with k I can't 0:02:00.287 --> 0:02:02.207 figure out his name. Now. My advice to all my 0:02:02.207 --> 0:02:05.247 friends having children. He's picked the name before, because when 0:02:05.287 --> 0:02:08.007 the hormones hit, you can't make decisions. You can't, she cries. 0:02:08.007 --> 0:02:10.047 When I met him, he was just the most beautiful 0:02:10.047 --> 0:02:12.007 thing to me, and I couldn't believe just how perfect 0:02:12.047 --> 0:02:13.967 he was. I felt like such a failure that I 0:02:13.967 --> 0:02:16.167 couldn't name him. He deserved so much more than that. 0:02:16.567 --> 0:02:17.727 It just really triggered me. 0:02:18.447 --> 0:02:20.647 I don't often say that Kylie Jenner is relatable. I 0:02:20.687 --> 0:02:24.287 found this incredibly, very relatable. I think she's spot on 0:02:24.807 --> 0:02:27.407 the idea that you go through something like giving birth 0:02:27.447 --> 0:02:33.007 and then you're expected to make a rational, logical, administrative decision. 0:02:32.687 --> 0:02:34.087 With respect you have nine months. 0:02:34.407 --> 0:02:36.087 Yes, but a lot of people we were the same. 0:02:36.167 --> 0:02:40.007 We kind of went, oh, we'll meet her that last. 0:02:40.047 --> 0:02:42.527 When we look at her, we'll know. And I had 0:02:42.687 --> 0:02:46.647 no feelings either way. You're often incredibly sleep deprived. Luca 0:02:46.807 --> 0:02:49.047 was very committed to Luna. I ended up saying, yes, 0:02:49.087 --> 0:02:51.247 I had no feelings at the time. I still the 0:02:51.327 --> 0:02:54.647 name is like, she just is Luna. I think we 0:02:54.767 --> 0:02:56.887 probably give too much stock to a name. We do, 0:02:57.487 --> 0:03:00.567 But I don't feel strongly either. I just had no 0:03:00.607 --> 0:03:02.767 capacity to make a decision, which is what she's So. 0:03:02.807 --> 0:03:05.007 You don't have regret, No, I don't have regret. Do 0:03:05.047 --> 0:03:07.367 you want to know the breakdown of why people have regret? 0:03:07.647 --> 0:03:07.807 Yes. 0:03:08.007 --> 0:03:10.727 Of the people who regret it, twenty five percent say 0:03:10.767 --> 0:03:13.607 it's because the name is too common. Twenty what do 0:03:13.607 --> 0:03:16.047 you know, lunas? I think number one or two most 0:03:16.047 --> 0:03:19.727 common names. Twenty one percent of name regrettas say that 0:03:19.807 --> 0:03:23.727 it just doesn't feel right and twenty percent say that 0:03:24.047 --> 0:03:26.287 I never liked it. I was pressured into using it yep. 0:03:26.767 --> 0:03:30.007 Eleven percent say it causes problems with spelling or pronunciation, 0:03:30.447 --> 0:03:33.447 like air with an E, and eleven percent say it 0:03:33.567 --> 0:03:34.567 just doesn't suit my kid. 0:03:34.727 --> 0:03:36.567 I used to I think we both did. Me a 0:03:36.647 --> 0:03:39.087 work with someone who changed their baby's name after like 0:03:39.127 --> 0:03:41.567 a year, and it's more common than you think. And 0:03:41.607 --> 0:03:44.447 the thing is, is, just like everything about parenting, when 0:03:44.527 --> 0:03:47.567 you do that case in point, Kylie Jenner, a lot 0:03:47.607 --> 0:03:48.767 of people have a lot of feelings. 0:03:48.847 --> 0:03:49.767 I'm really angry. 0:03:49.847 --> 0:03:51.527 Why do they get so angry about that? 0:03:51.647 --> 0:03:55.687 Sofya Keisha changed her names. I don't know why people care. 0:03:55.807 --> 0:03:56.767 People care deeply. 0:03:57.247 --> 0:03:59.127 I think that's probably a threshold. What do we think 0:03:59.127 --> 0:03:59.407 it is? 0:03:59.447 --> 0:03:59.527 Like? 0:03:59.567 --> 0:03:59.807 Eight? 0:04:01.847 --> 0:04:03.367 Can you not change your name anymore? 0:04:03.927 --> 0:04:04.927 The thing is is. 0:04:04.847 --> 0:04:05.887 That my daughter still. 0:04:06.847 --> 0:04:09.247 One of the little triggers of why it probably irritate 0:04:09.527 --> 0:04:13.727 people is because it feels very vain, like I'm not 0:04:13.767 --> 0:04:15.567 saying that it is, but I can see why it does, 0:04:15.607 --> 0:04:17.247 because you know how you just said, Luna just is 0:04:17.327 --> 0:04:19.447 Luna and you don't really think about it. I think 0:04:19.447 --> 0:04:22.647 that's how most people feel about their kids' names. Is 0:04:22.687 --> 0:04:24.967 they like we liked it. At the time, we didn't 0:04:24.967 --> 0:04:26.887 really realize that we liked it because we're part of 0:04:26.887 --> 0:04:30.807 a culture where everybody likes it too, hence Luna, hence 0:04:30.807 --> 0:04:32.887 the fact that Matilda is usually in a sporting team 0:04:32.887 --> 0:04:36.087 with like five other Matilda's. Because of that particular moment 0:04:36.207 --> 0:04:37.927 was the name, and we thought we were being different. 0:04:38.527 --> 0:04:40.007 And I think most of us go, you suck it 0:04:40.087 --> 0:04:42.167 up and you deal with it. But if you've got 0:04:42.167 --> 0:04:45.647 the balls or the female version of balls to go, no, 0:04:45.887 --> 0:04:48.567 I don't like it. I'm going to change it. It feels that. 0:04:49.127 --> 0:04:53.087 I think that's the Manchester view, right view. Is why 0:04:53.167 --> 0:04:57.167 it makes people upset is because it's suddenly like, is 0:04:57.167 --> 0:04:59.487 that something that we can do? Is that something we're 0:04:59.527 --> 0:05:01.927 doing now? Because then it hadn't occurred to me that 0:05:01.927 --> 0:05:03.847 I could change my child's name, And now I've got 0:05:03.847 --> 0:05:08.127 the mental load of thinking maybe I got it wrong. True, 0:05:08.247 --> 0:05:12.967 I like the idea. You've made a decision, Okay, next, yeah, yeah. 0:05:13.047 --> 0:05:14.727 So if it's like, well, you could change it if 0:05:14.767 --> 0:05:16.727 you wanted to, too many choices. 0:05:16.647 --> 0:05:18.647 Oh, well, you could just give them the nickname like 0:05:19.047 --> 0:05:21.327 his called Night, but we call him a Why I 0:05:21.327 --> 0:05:22.687 don't care it's family. We just do. 0:05:23.287 --> 0:05:25.527 Yeah, no one knows the Bethti forget. My uncle was 0:05:25.567 --> 0:05:28.527 tasked with the job of writing down the kid's name, Like, 0:05:28.687 --> 0:05:30.447 you know, the wife's just given birth. Can you go 0:05:30.487 --> 0:05:33.127 and do the forms? Filled out the forms wrong, middle 0:05:33.127 --> 0:05:35.967 and first came the wrong way around. Really, they're still 0:05:36.047 --> 0:05:36.687 pissed about it. 0:05:36.687 --> 0:05:38.447 It's hard when you're tired and you've got to fill 0:05:38.447 --> 0:05:38.927 out forms. 0:05:39.007 --> 0:05:42.647 Yeah, a man is halfway through doing his very public 0:05:42.767 --> 0:05:44.767 job when he has to put his hand up and say, 0:05:44.807 --> 0:05:46.407 I'm sorry, I can't keep going. 0:05:46.687 --> 0:05:47.367 I need a minute. 0:05:48.167 --> 0:05:52.087 Nate Burned, the very popular weather reporter on ABC Breakfast, 0:05:52.087 --> 0:05:54.767 did exactly this in front of thousands of viewers on 0:05:54.847 --> 0:05:59.087 Tuesday morning and instantly became a viral video. Here's the 0:05:59.127 --> 0:06:00.567 audio of what happened. 0:06:00.887 --> 0:06:04.607 We've got big falls right through that part of the country, 0:06:04.967 --> 0:06:07.367 and we're going to see lots more rain in the 0:06:07.407 --> 0:06:10.967 days ahead. Actually going to need to stop for a second. 0:06:11.447 --> 0:06:14.327 Some of you may know that I occasionally get affected 0:06:14.327 --> 0:06:18.687 by some panic attacks, and actually that's happening right now. Lisa, 0:06:19.007 --> 0:06:21.087 maybe I could hand back to you. 0:06:21.087 --> 0:06:24.207 You certainly can date Nate's co workers, including Lisa Miller, 0:06:24.247 --> 0:06:26.887 who you heard there on that Grab immediately jumped in 0:06:27.047 --> 0:06:29.367 finished the weather for Nate and explained what was happening, 0:06:29.367 --> 0:06:31.127 reassuring views that he was fine. 0:06:31.287 --> 0:06:33.287 That was so hard to listen to him, Oh so 0:06:33.327 --> 0:06:35.527 hard to like. You can hear it start. You can 0:06:35.567 --> 0:06:39.727 hear him swallow, try to get it together, and you 0:06:39.767 --> 0:06:42.847 can hear his voice wobble, and you can hear him 0:06:42.887 --> 0:06:46.007 make that snap decision of I actually can't keep going 0:06:46.007 --> 0:06:47.807 because he tries to keep going and then he can't, 0:06:48.487 --> 0:06:50.807 and then to have the fortitude to be able to 0:06:50.807 --> 0:06:53.007 do a throw, I can't believe he was a co 0:06:53.087 --> 0:06:56.327 host to articulate that, I'm so impressed, very very impressive. 0:06:56.607 --> 0:06:59.687 It was immediately hailed as the textbook way to handle 0:06:59.767 --> 0:07:03.047 a coworker's mental health incident with sensitivity and grace by 0:07:03.127 --> 0:07:06.007 his colleagues, and then Nate himself came back on the 0:07:06.047 --> 0:07:08.247 show a little bit later to talk about it, as 0:07:08.287 --> 0:07:10.607 he'd done in an article for the ABC two years 0:07:10.647 --> 0:07:13.887 ago after it happened before, and he reassured the audience 0:07:13.887 --> 0:07:14.847 that he was fine. 0:07:14.807 --> 0:07:17.927 Very pleased to say that our wonderful colleague mate is. 0:07:17.967 --> 0:07:18.447 Back with this. 0:07:19.247 --> 0:07:21.487 Sorry if I gave anybody a bit of a scare there. 0:07:21.847 --> 0:07:24.927 Yes, not really, because you've been very honest before about 0:07:25.047 --> 0:07:27.767 getting panic attacks on air, and it's so great for 0:07:27.807 --> 0:07:29.727 people to know that it can happen to When. 0:07:29.607 --> 0:07:30.967 He gave me a scared because I thought I'd have 0:07:31.007 --> 0:07:33.207 to finish doing the weather report and I'm no good 0:07:33.207 --> 0:07:33.407 of that. 0:07:33.767 --> 0:07:35.687 Well, he was talking about Queensland, so. 0:07:35.727 --> 0:07:38.807 I was going to step up well, and today would 0:07:38.807 --> 0:07:40.527 be the day to do it. There's so much going 0:07:40.527 --> 0:07:42.607 on for Queensland. But thank you all so much for 0:07:42.687 --> 0:07:43.207 helping out. 0:07:43.287 --> 0:07:45.207 Here's a little bit of what he wrote in that 0:07:45.367 --> 0:07:49.007 story where he first explained his panic attacks. He said, 0:07:49.007 --> 0:07:51.447 I had my first ever panic attack on live TV. 0:07:51.927 --> 0:07:54.287 I was standing in one of my favorite places, doing 0:07:54.327 --> 0:07:57.207 the thing I love most. He went on to say, 0:07:57.207 --> 0:07:59.887 anxiety had never been an issue in my life before, 0:08:00.367 --> 0:08:03.727 even though high stress situations weren't a stranger. But this 0:08:03.887 --> 0:08:06.527 time I wasn't a naval officer moments away from running 0:08:06.527 --> 0:08:08.887 a warship aground, or standing in front of a stadium 0:08:08.927 --> 0:08:13.367 filled with twelve thousand people hosting my first internationally televised event. 0:08:14.007 --> 0:08:17.207 I thought that my career was over. Something was taking 0:08:17.247 --> 0:08:20.447 control of me without my permission or understanding, and it 0:08:20.527 --> 0:08:24.287 was preventing me from doing what made me me. I 0:08:24.367 --> 0:08:26.087 was stood down for the rest of the day. News 0:08:26.127 --> 0:08:28.887 Breakfast co host Madeline Morris very tactfully told the audience 0:08:28.927 --> 0:08:31.167 that the weather man is under the weather and I 0:08:31.247 --> 0:08:34.287 gathered by things and went straight to the doctor. Now 0:08:34.367 --> 0:08:38.007 Nate's not alone. This week, both Carrie Bickmore, radio host, 0:08:38.087 --> 0:08:41.807 TV presenter, cancer charity advocate all round Legend said that 0:08:41.887 --> 0:08:45.407 she had also suffered while doing her job. She said 0:08:45.407 --> 0:08:47.567 this on radio this week, and she played a little 0:08:47.567 --> 0:08:51.967 bit of audio of herself reading the news while suffering anxiety. 0:08:51.967 --> 0:08:53.887 Before then she jumps in and talks about it. 0:08:54.447 --> 0:08:57.047 And the fate of the English Siamese twins have been decided. 0:08:57.247 --> 0:09:00.647 A London courts ruled they can undergo surgery to separate them. 0:09:00.807 --> 0:09:03.727 Doctors are expected to wait a month. Though we have 0:09:03.767 --> 0:09:07.287 speed cameras on Army and Abs Sorrento, Southwest Highwi, Armadale Grade, 0:09:07.287 --> 0:09:10.527 Eastern Highway, Greenmound, Tonkin Highway, Morley, Enna, sav Rockingham and 0:09:10.687 --> 0:09:11.687 Orong Road Belmont. 0:09:14.567 --> 0:09:16.287 We don't need to know how the traffic's going back 0:09:16.327 --> 0:09:18.847 twenty years ago, but I still look back and think 0:09:18.887 --> 0:09:21.447 how did I do that? Because I was so consumed 0:09:21.607 --> 0:09:24.127 by this anxiety, and I didn't tell my family and 0:09:24.167 --> 0:09:27.727 friends about it because I think it felt quite significant 0:09:27.767 --> 0:09:29.087 in the scheme of some of the stuff that was 0:09:29.087 --> 0:09:31.567 happening in my life at the time. But I remember 0:09:31.607 --> 0:09:33.847 I would have them all afternoon when I was reading 0:09:33.927 --> 0:09:36.327 the news on Nova, and then all morning when I 0:09:36.407 --> 0:09:38.847 joined USY and Kate all those years ago. And I 0:09:38.967 --> 0:09:41.247 only told Kate Langbrook about it the other day and 0:09:41.327 --> 0:09:43.767 she was like, what are you talking about. I think 0:09:44.367 --> 0:09:46.607 I managed to get through that whole time without I 0:09:46.727 --> 0:09:49.287 just imagine people were having meetings in rooms going what 0:09:49.607 --> 0:09:50.127 Wronger though? 0:09:50.167 --> 0:09:51.247 Why does she sound like that? 0:09:51.407 --> 0:09:52.247 And why does she do that? 0:09:52.927 --> 0:09:55.727 She had no idea. I think it's interesting her first comment, 0:09:55.807 --> 0:09:58.327 which was why didn't you tell me? And I think 0:09:58.367 --> 0:10:00.927 that's the thing. I just wish I'd spoken to people 0:10:00.967 --> 0:10:02.887 about it back then, because she wouldn't have cared. She 0:10:02.887 --> 0:10:05.087 would have done nothing but helped me out. 0:10:05.367 --> 0:10:07.207 Carrie said that she had was on the verge of 0:10:07.247 --> 0:10:10.007 a panic attack pretty much every single time she went 0:10:10.127 --> 0:10:12.767 on air in any capacity on TV and radio for 0:10:12.887 --> 0:10:14.247 a good decade. 0:10:14.567 --> 0:10:14.847 Wow. 0:10:15.807 --> 0:10:18.047 Jackie I also backed up this morning, saying she'd had 0:10:18.127 --> 0:10:20.887 panic attacks for eighteen months after a negative drug experience. 0:10:21.447 --> 0:10:23.807 I want to understand something about this, right because this 0:10:23.967 --> 0:10:27.527 is obviously struck such a chord when Nate in particular 0:10:27.767 --> 0:10:30.127 has been so open about what he was going through, 0:10:30.407 --> 0:10:32.567 and there's something about seeing it with your own eyes. 0:10:33.807 --> 0:10:37.007 Is it possible do you think to avoid putting yourself 0:10:37.047 --> 0:10:39.847 in circumstances that would make you this anxious if you 0:10:39.967 --> 0:10:43.447 suffer from anxiety? Because put in the most base terms, 0:10:43.487 --> 0:10:45.687 and I want to be really careful not to sound 0:10:46.447 --> 0:10:49.527 dismissive or insensitive about it, but in a world where 0:10:49.567 --> 0:10:53.087 we're constantly urged to push yourself out of your comfort 0:10:53.167 --> 0:10:55.767 zone and do something every day that scares you and 0:10:55.847 --> 0:10:58.847 all those things, is there a way in which, like, 0:10:59.127 --> 0:11:03.407 if something about your job makes you hyper anxious, it 0:11:03.607 --> 0:11:04.607 might not be the right. 0:11:04.567 --> 0:11:08.407 Job for you. So what you're articulating, Holly, and I 0:11:08.567 --> 0:11:12.287 know that, or sort of being Devil's advocate is actually 0:11:12.367 --> 0:11:14.247 something that comes up in a lot of comment sections, 0:11:14.447 --> 0:11:17.847 So particularly the first time that Nate Burne came out 0:11:17.887 --> 0:11:19.687 with his story, a lot of the comments were like, 0:11:20.247 --> 0:11:22.687 why are your weather man? Why are you on live television? 0:11:23.327 --> 0:11:26.647 And I actually put it to some out louders we 0:11:26.727 --> 0:11:29.527 have a lot of out louders who are practicing psychologists, 0:11:29.687 --> 0:11:32.047 And I said, and I had a hunch because I've 0:11:32.167 --> 0:11:34.287 seen psychologists and studied it at UNI for a bit, 0:11:34.327 --> 0:11:36.967 but I just wanted their expertise. You know, you hear 0:11:37.087 --> 0:11:40.007 Kate Campbell talk about swimming and the stress. 0:11:39.687 --> 0:11:43.127 That that causes her to vomiting before they go on 0:11:43.287 --> 0:11:44.567 stage from nerves. 0:11:45.327 --> 0:11:49.207 And the psychologists said a few interesting things. They said, 0:11:49.367 --> 0:11:52.807 often the panic attack isn't as related to the situation 0:11:53.207 --> 0:11:55.847 you're in as you might think. So it isn't the 0:11:55.927 --> 0:11:59.607 live television, It isn't reading the weather that's causing the 0:11:59.647 --> 0:12:03.727 panic attack necessarily. And people who experience panic attacks will 0:12:03.807 --> 0:12:07.327 testify to this that they can happen when I mean, 0:12:07.367 --> 0:12:09.567 I've had them when I've sat down to rah or 0:12:09.607 --> 0:12:13.567 I've been totally by myself. And people who don't work 0:12:14.167 --> 0:12:17.327 in live television also have paying attacks all the time. 0:12:17.967 --> 0:12:21.687 And the other thing they'd said is that the advice 0:12:21.687 --> 0:12:25.327 a psychologist wouldn't give you is avoidance. So the thing 0:12:25.367 --> 0:12:28.967 that makes anxiety worse and panic attacks worse is avoidance. 0:12:29.007 --> 0:12:31.927 So I went to a psychologist about panic attacks, probably 0:12:32.287 --> 0:12:35.767 ten years ago, and we did exposure therapy that's part 0:12:35.807 --> 0:12:40.527 of CBT, and they gradually I'm not sure a psychologist 0:12:40.607 --> 0:12:42.327 if you were in this level of distress, they'd be like, 0:12:42.447 --> 0:12:44.967 go and do it again tomorrow. They help you and 0:12:45.087 --> 0:12:49.727 be a bit gentler. But it exacerbates anxiety to avoid it. 0:12:50.287 --> 0:12:55.247 And so I would hazard a guess that if Carrie 0:12:55.287 --> 0:12:57.927 Bickmore wasn't reading the news, if she was doing something else, 0:12:58.207 --> 0:13:01.007 those panic attacks still might present themselves. I think the 0:13:01.127 --> 0:13:05.967 reason that these stories go viral is because one thing 0:13:06.407 --> 0:13:09.047 that people get very self conscious about is how they appear. 0:13:09.287 --> 0:13:11.007 Because you feel like when you're in the midst of 0:13:11.047 --> 0:13:14.087 a panic attack, you actually I thought i'd had one. 0:13:14.647 --> 0:13:16.647 I once called an ambulance because I thought that I 0:13:17.367 --> 0:13:20.167 was dying. I thought I was having a heart attack. 0:13:20.967 --> 0:13:24.727 You think everyone can see your head exploding, and it 0:13:24.887 --> 0:13:30.207 is mortifying and shameful, and it's this dread. This You're 0:13:30.287 --> 0:13:34.127 so certain that you're dying in that moment that to 0:13:34.287 --> 0:13:38.047 actually see or hear someone else go through a panic 0:13:38.087 --> 0:13:42.127 attack sort of demystifies it and you go, oh, the 0:13:42.207 --> 0:13:44.727 world kept spinning, the sun rose next day. It wasn't 0:13:44.727 --> 0:13:45.367 the end of the world. 0:13:45.527 --> 0:13:48.247 And from the outside, if he hadn't have walked off, 0:13:49.047 --> 0:13:50.927 you wouldn't have known if he hadn't have said it. No, 0:13:51.567 --> 0:13:53.647 it's interesting when I've had panic attacks. I don't feel 0:13:53.687 --> 0:13:56.607 like I'm dying, but I feel such a level of 0:13:56.807 --> 0:14:00.047 terror that I can't even speak it. I can't even 0:14:00.167 --> 0:14:02.807 tell anyone. I would never have been able to say 0:14:02.927 --> 0:14:06.407 what Nate did, or in Carrie's case, tell a friend 0:14:06.527 --> 0:14:09.967 or a coworker, because it's really had to explain. But 0:14:10.047 --> 0:14:11.927 you're right, Jesse, in terms of I used to have 0:14:11.967 --> 0:14:15.727 panic attacks whenever I flew, and I could have decided 0:14:15.767 --> 0:14:18.527 to not fly, and I did minimize the amount of 0:14:18.567 --> 0:14:20.287 travel that I did for a really long time. And 0:14:20.407 --> 0:14:24.487 then I realized my life was getting smaller because anxiety 0:14:24.527 --> 0:14:27.327 will just attach itself to something else, and it did. 0:14:27.447 --> 0:14:29.767 Once I got over my fear of flying, my anxiety 0:14:29.927 --> 0:14:33.607 attached itself to a different fear. I think that what's 0:14:33.727 --> 0:14:37.607 so amazing about Nate doing this, And also a shout 0:14:37.647 --> 0:14:40.527 out to Lisa Miller for the way she was able 0:14:40.607 --> 0:14:42.487 to handle that, and I remember, this is not the 0:14:42.527 --> 0:14:45.567 first time that's happened to her. This also happened when 0:14:45.687 --> 0:14:49.487 she was hosting and life TV is so hard. She 0:14:49.607 --> 0:14:52.087 had a guest who was menopausal. She had a hot 0:14:52.127 --> 0:14:55.247 flush and she suddenly couldn't speak. And Lisa was also 0:14:55.327 --> 0:14:58.367 in the position there to just carry that through and 0:14:58.527 --> 0:15:02.087 give that person complete dignity and make it feel really normal. 0:15:02.367 --> 0:15:06.407 And that is an incredible art and an incredible skill. 0:15:07.367 --> 0:15:10.847 But I think Carrie back there wouldn't have seen anyone. 0:15:11.127 --> 0:15:13.087 No one spoke about anxiety. When I was having my 0:15:13.167 --> 0:15:15.727 panic attacks. It was in the earlier days of Mum 0:15:15.807 --> 0:15:17.647 and mea and I didn't want to tell anyone or 0:15:17.687 --> 0:15:20.087 write about it because I thought it would mean people 0:15:20.087 --> 0:15:22.887 would think I was crazy and people wouldn't take me seriously. 0:15:23.487 --> 0:15:27.567 The generosity of being public about something. 0:15:27.407 --> 0:15:31.127 Like that is huge. The other thing I thought was 0:15:31.207 --> 0:15:34.647 a note about what they both said the more you listened, 0:15:34.687 --> 0:15:37.207 and I urge people to read Nate Burne's article. It's 0:15:37.247 --> 0:15:41.247 really insightful. But the thing that they're almost scared them 0:15:41.527 --> 0:15:46.087 continued to scare them more than the stimulus was the 0:15:46.367 --> 0:15:49.127 possibility of having a panic attack again. So that's actually 0:15:49.207 --> 0:15:51.647 what the and then you're panicking about that, Yeah, so 0:15:51.807 --> 0:15:54.407 then when you get any of the symptoms like Nate 0:15:54.847 --> 0:15:57.607 the first time he had it, Interestingly, he was running 0:15:57.647 --> 0:16:00.247 late and you kind of had to run. And if 0:16:00.327 --> 0:16:02.367 you've had panic attacks and you feel out of breath, 0:16:02.847 --> 0:16:04.647 that can freak you out because you go, oh, no, 0:16:04.727 --> 0:16:06.127 i'm not, I'm not I'm not telling me I'm not 0:16:06.167 --> 0:16:08.047 having panic, and then you start to spiral, and then 0:16:08.087 --> 0:16:11.647 the physiological sense of panic start to trigger the brain, 0:16:11.807 --> 0:16:13.687 and then that's when it happens. 0:16:13.767 --> 0:16:17.007 It's also not possible to avoid everything that might trigger you. 0:16:17.127 --> 0:16:18.847 So for example, I have panic attacks when I have 0:16:18.967 --> 0:16:21.767 ultrasounds or any sort of scan because of a bad 0:16:21.847 --> 0:16:25.007 experience and a bad result that I got many many 0:16:25.127 --> 0:16:28.087 years ago. I didn't even realize that's why I would 0:16:28.127 --> 0:16:31.647 have them, Like it took my mum to sort of say, Darling, 0:16:31.687 --> 0:16:34.047 I think it's because that time you had the ultrasound 0:16:34.127 --> 0:16:36.367 and you lost the baby, Like I think that's what 0:16:36.527 --> 0:16:39.167 and I'm like, oh my god, yeah, like I had 0:16:39.207 --> 0:16:42.087 to almost sedate myself. But you can't not have a mammogram. 0:16:42.167 --> 0:16:44.047 You can't not have an ultrasound if you need one. 0:16:44.607 --> 0:16:47.327 So that's why I also, avoidance just isn't possible and 0:16:47.407 --> 0:16:48.127 it isn't helpful. 0:16:48.207 --> 0:16:51.727 I find all that, of course, absolutely enlightening and correct. 0:16:52.207 --> 0:16:54.207 The only thing I would say is that for some 0:16:54.407 --> 0:16:57.887 people work stress does really add to their anxiety, and 0:16:58.007 --> 0:17:01.007 there is no shame in saying I can't do this. 0:17:01.567 --> 0:17:03.767 And I'm not suggesting for even a split second that 0:17:03.847 --> 0:17:06.007 that's what Nate or Carry or anyone should not even 0:17:06.047 --> 0:17:08.767 for a second. But I mean, because panic attacks are 0:17:08.807 --> 0:17:11.407 kind of a bit different, right, but for lots of 0:17:11.447 --> 0:17:15.367 people who find themselves teetering on the edge of I mean, 0:17:15.447 --> 0:17:17.327 breakdown's a tough word. But you know, when I did 0:17:17.367 --> 0:17:19.687 that interview with Julie Goodwin and she was talking about 0:17:19.767 --> 0:17:24.007 how she felt she couldn't get off this professional flywheel 0:17:24.087 --> 0:17:25.887 that she was on of all this work that she 0:17:25.967 --> 0:17:27.727 had to do to keep everything going all the time, 0:17:27.807 --> 0:17:32.447 but she was inside, just completely in the grips of 0:17:32.567 --> 0:17:35.687 a terrible mental health crisis. And she said to her psychiatrist, 0:17:35.847 --> 0:17:38.007 but I can't stop. And she was like why, and 0:17:38.087 --> 0:17:39.967 she's like, because of the money, because of the mortgage, 0:17:40.007 --> 0:17:42.047 because of this is what I do. And her psychiatrist 0:17:42.127 --> 0:17:44.767 was like, you know, funerals cost a lot of money, too, 0:17:44.847 --> 0:17:47.087 you know, like which it seems like a very simplistic, 0:17:47.167 --> 0:17:49.967 extreme thing to say, But my point is just while 0:17:50.007 --> 0:17:52.487 I don't mean in any way to attach that to 0:17:52.647 --> 0:17:56.687 this conversation. There is no shame or stigma in not 0:17:56.887 --> 0:17:59.607 being able to carry on if you are struggling. 0:17:59.767 --> 0:18:00.847 No, that's really true. 0:18:16.007 --> 0:18:19.527 Is Australia about to ban gambling ads? And if so, 0:18:19.807 --> 0:18:22.527 could that mark the end of freeda air television? Are 0:18:22.567 --> 0:18:27.967 gambling ads keeping Australian support afloat? And does complete prohibition work? Anyway? 0:18:28.927 --> 0:18:31.767 Let's start at the beginning. An alliance of leading Australians 0:18:31.807 --> 0:18:37.127 has demanded the government totally ban gambling ads. Gambling losses 0:18:37.167 --> 0:18:39.727 in Australia. I didn't know this are among the highest 0:18:39.807 --> 0:18:42.527 per person in the world. They cost us an estimated 0:18:42.567 --> 0:18:46.727 twenty five billion dollars a year. Among the signatories of 0:18:46.847 --> 0:18:49.447 this alliance that was put to the government was Formerr 0:18:49.607 --> 0:18:53.367 PM John Howard, who said many Australians are alarmed about 0:18:53.367 --> 0:18:56.887 the proliferation of gambling advertising on our screens, which I 0:18:56.967 --> 0:18:59.367 think we can all agree as a fair statement. Labour 0:18:59.527 --> 0:19:03.687 MP Mike Freelander said a total advertising ban was a 0:19:03.767 --> 0:19:08.927 necessary health policy akin to controls on tobacco advertising, adding 0:19:08.967 --> 0:19:11.607 that gambling is a way of transferring billions of dollars 0:19:11.767 --> 0:19:15.367 from poor people to wealthy people. Yes, here's what Independent 0:19:15.407 --> 0:19:17.287 Senator David Pocock said this week. 0:19:17.447 --> 0:19:21.607 It's a betrayal of Australians. Eighty percent of Australians want this, 0:19:22.167 --> 0:19:24.887 and we have a government that doesn't have the guts 0:19:25.247 --> 0:19:28.887 to actually stand up to the gambling industry, doesn't have 0:19:29.007 --> 0:19:33.247 the imagination to actually work with TV. Where is the 0:19:33.327 --> 0:19:36.367 courage from from this labor government. Young men who have 0:19:36.687 --> 0:19:39.807 committed suicide because of the whole that they have got 0:19:39.847 --> 0:19:42.127 themselves into with gambling addictions, and. 0:19:42.247 --> 0:19:46.207 Jackie Lamby said this just for once to die, just 0:19:46.407 --> 0:19:49.487 for once. Put the future of our kids first. 0:19:50.167 --> 0:19:52.807 Put the future of our kids first. I am begging you, 0:19:53.047 --> 0:19:58.007 yay Jackie that I just endorse everything that she says 0:19:58.087 --> 0:20:01.447 and the emotion in her voice abs of friggin lootly. 0:20:01.527 --> 0:20:03.367 I love what she can get through in nine seconds. 0:20:03.447 --> 0:20:04.927 She's like, I only need nine seconds. 0:20:05.727 --> 0:20:06.447 Gets my point. 0:20:07.887 --> 0:20:12.607 That, But is it really that simple? Because on Q 0:20:12.687 --> 0:20:15.207 and A on Monday night, Bill Shorten said that free 0:20:15.247 --> 0:20:18.207 to air television needs the money from gambling ads to 0:20:18.247 --> 0:20:18.847 stay afloat. 0:20:19.167 --> 0:20:22.567 We should go fundme for free to air television because 0:20:22.727 --> 0:20:25.447 you know they're not making enough money, but you know 0:20:25.567 --> 0:20:28.927 what they are poor Australians. We are having billions of dollars. 0:20:29.167 --> 0:20:33.007 We will build, we will get gambling companies, but they 0:20:33.287 --> 0:20:34.807 hire a lot of Australians. A lot of people have 0:20:34.967 --> 0:20:37.007 jobs in these industries. And if free to air was 0:20:37.087 --> 0:20:38.607 to go down the toilet, a lot of people lose 0:20:38.607 --> 0:20:38.967 their jobs. 0:20:39.007 --> 0:20:40.607 And also when we say free to way, they also 0:20:40.687 --> 0:20:43.007 been streaming, Like I watch a lot of streaming TV 0:20:43.087 --> 0:20:45.887 and there is a gambling ad every two seconds. 0:20:46.007 --> 0:20:51.167 To be clear, if your business is held up by 0:20:51.327 --> 0:20:54.727 gambling advertising, you need to rel look at your business model, 0:20:54.807 --> 0:20:58.887 take some hard decisions. We don't accept gambling advertising at Mammamea. 0:20:59.647 --> 0:21:01.527 Would we be more profitable. 0:21:01.087 --> 0:21:01.567 If we did? 0:21:02.127 --> 0:21:04.527 Hell yes yes, But could we hire more people? 0:21:04.887 --> 0:21:08.207 Hell yes yes, But Mama Maya is targeted at women. 0:21:09.007 --> 0:21:11.527 A lot of gambling advertising, if not all of it, 0:21:12.247 --> 0:21:16.207 is really appealing to men, so young men and young men. Right. 0:21:16.407 --> 0:21:19.847 So if I'm making my money off young men and 0:21:19.967 --> 0:21:22.367 a gambling company is going, I'm going to give you 0:21:22.527 --> 0:21:24.927 all of this money, which is a year's worth of revenue, 0:21:24.967 --> 0:21:26.207 it's a hard thing to say no to. 0:21:26.327 --> 0:21:27.927 You know what else you make a lot of money from, 0:21:28.087 --> 0:21:30.407 or you used to tobacco advertising. 0:21:30.647 --> 0:21:33.207 This is the most common comparison, and it's a very 0:21:33.247 --> 0:21:38.167 good one because gambling is addictive. Gambling is, as you said, Jesse, 0:21:38.367 --> 0:21:40.127 costing a lot of people, and a lot of young 0:21:40.167 --> 0:21:41.967 men who can't afford it, and not only young men, 0:21:42.047 --> 0:21:44.167 but a lot of young men an enormous amount of money. 0:21:44.567 --> 0:21:47.807 They are advertising in a way that's very attractive to 0:21:47.967 --> 0:21:51.767 attract a new recruit to this addiction. You can do 0:21:51.847 --> 0:21:53.527 it on your phone, you can do it in private. 0:21:53.607 --> 0:21:56.327 It's a very good comparison with your mates to part 0:21:56.367 --> 0:22:00.647 of makeship. It's very good comparison to tobacco advertising. One 0:22:00.687 --> 0:22:03.087 of the issues is, though, and I guess this is 0:22:03.127 --> 0:22:06.287 one of the arguments they'd say, is that Australians spend 0:22:07.567 --> 0:22:12.047 so much money on gambling, Like they spend billions and 0:22:12.207 --> 0:22:13.727 billions and billions of dollars. 0:22:13.967 --> 0:22:18.487 So under Labour's proposal, gambling ads would be banned online 0:22:18.687 --> 0:22:23.167 in kids programming. That seems like sense one to find kid. 0:22:23.367 --> 0:22:25.927 Well, yeah, because the problem with kids advertising is I 0:22:26.047 --> 0:22:28.647 see lots of gambling ads on family TV. Okay, it 0:22:28.727 --> 0:22:32.447 wouldn't fall into like kids advertising, but let's say Lego 0:22:32.847 --> 0:22:36.807 survivor Lego Masters Summit like stuff that I watch with 0:22:36.927 --> 0:22:39.407 the kids and sport which we all watch with our kids. 0:22:39.487 --> 0:22:42.327 So it would be during live sports broadcasting. Let's say 0:22:42.327 --> 0:22:44.167 you're sitting down, you're watching the NRL or the AFL 0:22:44.567 --> 0:22:47.327 live sports broadcasting in an hour either side. They're saying 0:22:47.407 --> 0:22:51.647 no gambling ads, but it can still appear during TV programming, 0:22:52.327 --> 0:22:53.727 but a lot of people are going hang on that. 0:22:54.247 --> 0:22:56.847 It means that at another time, let's say at ten PM, 0:22:57.247 --> 0:22:59.327 that you can put your gambling ads there. It'll keep 0:22:59.327 --> 0:23:00.967 it afloat. You can still show the sport, but we're 0:23:01.007 --> 0:23:03.967 not showing them together because kids are watching the sport. There's, 0:23:04.007 --> 0:23:06.407 of course the other issue, which is maybe there's not 0:23:06.527 --> 0:23:08.807 gambling ads, but I turn on and I want to 0:23:08.847 --> 0:23:11.447 watch them. At Manly Sea Eagles, they've got points Bet 0:23:11.647 --> 0:23:15.207 written on their jersey sponsorship and you've also got points 0:23:15.247 --> 0:23:18.087 Bet Stadium, which is where the Cronulla Sharks play. 0:23:18.287 --> 0:23:20.727 So what does that tell you if they're advertising on 0:23:20.847 --> 0:23:23.567 these programs and they're advertising on the players. 0:23:24.847 --> 0:23:26.287 It tells you that it works. 0:23:26.767 --> 0:23:30.327 It tells you that by doing that, more people spend 0:23:30.407 --> 0:23:34.007 more money with these companies and more Australians are put 0:23:34.127 --> 0:23:37.887 into financial hardship, often with tragic consequences. 0:23:38.167 --> 0:23:40.847 Yeah. Absolutely, I'm totally with you, and I think we 0:23:40.967 --> 0:23:41.247 all are. 0:23:41.807 --> 0:23:45.647 And I think that with you're very angry, but Jesse, 0:23:45.727 --> 0:23:46.887 You're like, Okay. 0:23:46.967 --> 0:23:47.247 I am. 0:23:47.527 --> 0:23:50.847 I'm very angry because I am very angry because I'm 0:23:50.847 --> 0:23:53.447 also a media owners. So this idea of and we 0:23:53.567 --> 0:23:55.367 have to make our decisions all the time about the 0:23:55.407 --> 0:23:58.807 advertising that we accept or don't accept, and to just 0:23:58.927 --> 0:24:01.887 say well, our business depends on it, I don't think 0:24:01.967 --> 0:24:02.647 that's good enough. 0:24:02.927 --> 0:24:05.567 These are the exact arguments made about tobacco. And you 0:24:05.647 --> 0:24:08.007 know what, if Freda Air is dying, then maybe we 0:24:08.127 --> 0:24:09.927 just bring back the tobacco exactly. 0:24:10.007 --> 0:24:12.447 And these media companies have all these lobbyists in Canberra 0:24:12.567 --> 0:24:14.527 talking to Bill Short and talking to all these people saying, 0:24:14.807 --> 0:24:16.487 oh no, it'll mean so many jobs. 0:24:16.567 --> 0:24:17.287 Well, what does it. 0:24:17.407 --> 0:24:19.647 Mean if it doesn't happen? What doesn't mean if we 0:24:19.687 --> 0:24:20.687 don't ban these ads? 0:24:20.727 --> 0:24:23.727 Although I agree with you, and I do genuinely agree 0:24:23.767 --> 0:24:26.327 with you, it infuriates me how like my kids can 0:24:26.447 --> 0:24:29.647 literally parrot all the words to all the gambling ads 0:24:30.207 --> 0:24:32.167 and that is scary, So I can mind it, and 0:24:32.247 --> 0:24:34.927 I don't even know where they see them clearly on subliminal, 0:24:35.207 --> 0:24:37.687 you know it's going in. I guess if I was 0:24:37.727 --> 0:24:40.407 putting a Devil's Advocate argument on it, I'd say, with 0:24:40.607 --> 0:24:43.287 that number of Ozzie spending that much money on it 0:24:43.367 --> 0:24:45.327 all the time, they clearly love it. There's a portion 0:24:45.487 --> 0:24:47.447 of the population who have problem and addiction. 0:24:47.647 --> 0:24:48.567 Do you know what people love? 0:24:48.607 --> 0:24:52.167 Yeah, yeah, okay, let me finish my sentence. Cigarettes and 0:24:52.367 --> 0:24:54.087 alcohol and social media. 0:24:54.367 --> 0:24:54.487 Right. 0:24:54.767 --> 0:24:56.967 There are lots of things that prop up our economies 0:24:57.007 --> 0:25:00.007 that are bad for people. So it's like, you know, 0:25:00.087 --> 0:25:02.087 the debate that's going on at the moment all over 0:25:02.167 --> 0:25:04.607 the world about what kind of restrictions we should be 0:25:04.647 --> 0:25:06.767 putting on social media and phone news for young people 0:25:06.807 --> 0:25:09.407 because that's also very damaging for their mental health. So 0:25:09.527 --> 0:25:12.807 it's like there are all kinds of pockets of our 0:25:13.367 --> 0:25:15.767 global economy that are held up by things that are 0:25:15.807 --> 0:25:18.487 basically damaging, and this is one of them. And I 0:25:18.647 --> 0:25:22.647 agree wholeheartedly that it needs to be very strictly regulated. 0:25:23.007 --> 0:25:25.927 But I guess one of the arguments is I'm an adult, 0:25:26.287 --> 0:25:28.807 choose what I do with my money. Lardie Blardi blood. 0:25:28.807 --> 0:25:31.807 They do still let alcohol advertise around sport, not cigarettes, 0:25:31.847 --> 0:25:35.287 but alcohol, and that's interesting too, because there's an enormous 0:25:35.327 --> 0:25:38.047 portion of population who have massive problems with alcohol addiction. 0:25:38.687 --> 0:25:43.247 The counter argument, and again it's not mine, is are 0:25:43.287 --> 0:25:46.607 we just going to impede everybody's choices and treat everybody 0:25:46.727 --> 0:25:49.447 like a child rather than let them make their own calls? 0:25:49.967 --> 0:25:53.127 I guess that would probably be a generous reach. 0:25:53.247 --> 0:25:55.927 Yeah, what do you think about alcohol advertising during sport, 0:25:56.047 --> 0:25:59.647 especially given the say spike, you know, great final state 0:25:59.687 --> 0:26:02.527 of origin spike in domestic violence because men come home 0:26:03.167 --> 0:26:05.447 having drunk too much alcohol. Like, what do you think 0:26:05.487 --> 0:26:05.767 about that? 0:26:06.927 --> 0:26:09.247 I think that there are responsible ways to drink. 0:26:09.607 --> 0:26:12.007 The sports thing is fascinating because in England they have 0:26:12.167 --> 0:26:16.967 banned the shirts and the gambling companies from being directly 0:26:17.007 --> 0:26:19.727 involved in the sport, and the world hasn't ended, and 0:26:19.807 --> 0:26:21.927 the Premier League still makes a lot of money and 0:26:22.007 --> 0:26:25.007 they still sell the broadcasting rights for bajillions of dollars. 0:26:25.087 --> 0:26:26.767 So you know, it is a bit, as you say me, 0:26:26.967 --> 0:26:29.327 it's a bit of a furfey that like, everything will 0:26:29.487 --> 0:26:32.127 end and it is insidious that if you watch a 0:26:32.167 --> 0:26:35.047 sporting game someone will kick a goal. We cut straight 0:26:35.087 --> 0:26:37.327 to a gambling ad, then we cut to another bit 0:26:37.407 --> 0:26:39.407 that looks like commentary, but actually it's brought to you 0:26:39.527 --> 0:26:42.607 by gambling ad branded content. It is insidious. 0:26:43.047 --> 0:26:45.527 I've heard lobbyists say you can give them a few 0:26:45.567 --> 0:26:48.527 years to kind of make some plans about changing the 0:26:48.607 --> 0:26:51.047 advertising model or whatever. It's not going to be like 0:26:51.127 --> 0:26:53.207 a click of the fingers, and that seems fair enough. 0:26:53.927 --> 0:26:56.167 But on this because I've been thinking a lot about 0:26:56.487 --> 0:27:00.367 ethics and sport and who funds it, especially in light 0:27:00.527 --> 0:27:04.367 of the Olympics, which we've said, you know, brought everyone together. 0:27:04.967 --> 0:27:08.047 And you might have noticed during the swimming when Australia 0:27:08.367 --> 0:27:12.367 won so many gold medals, especially Australian female athletes, they 0:27:12.527 --> 0:27:16.087 would go to the stands and there was a smiling 0:27:16.367 --> 0:27:19.247 Gena reyn Hart. Gena Ryan Hart is of course the 0:27:19.327 --> 0:27:24.007 executive chairwoman of Hancock Prospecting. She's made her money in mining, 0:27:24.087 --> 0:27:28.007 which is ethically fraught. But the commentators couldn't say a 0:27:28.047 --> 0:27:32.407 thing about Jana Reineheart at the swimming because she has 0:27:33.007 --> 0:27:38.047 funded Australian swimming for years. Basically, even like Kate Campbell 0:27:38.127 --> 0:27:42.487 has come out and said she saved Australian swimming. 0:27:42.287 --> 0:27:43.207 Hi versus Rehnhart. 0:27:43.247 --> 0:27:45.567 It's Kate Campbell here, thank you so much for your 0:27:45.607 --> 0:27:49.327 support of this wonderful team. You have been a number 0:27:49.367 --> 0:27:52.887 one cheerleader every stroke of the way. 0:27:53.127 --> 0:27:56.247 They've all said that they wouldn't be as successful without 0:27:56.367 --> 0:28:01.247 her financial and emotional support. She donates directly to the swimmers, 0:28:01.407 --> 0:28:03.687 basically meaning that they don't have to work other jobs. 0:28:03.767 --> 0:28:06.927 They can train, like really really hard throughout the years 0:28:07.007 --> 0:28:11.487 and get these record gold medals. How do we feel 0:28:11.927 --> 0:28:14.887 about that? Because the swimmers, even they know how it works, 0:28:15.087 --> 0:28:17.487 they know it's in exchange. So even after they won 0:28:17.527 --> 0:28:19.407 all their gold medals, there was a cruise. Gina took 0:28:19.447 --> 0:28:21.247 them on a cruise and they al said, thank you Gina. 0:28:21.487 --> 0:28:25.287 It's really interesting this because you can see this like 0:28:25.567 --> 0:28:28.087 conflict in some of the athletes, in particular the younger 0:28:28.127 --> 0:28:32.887 ones in this like genuflecting to Gina, to your benefactor 0:28:33.327 --> 0:28:35.607 or patron, yes to your patron, yes, which is a 0:28:35.687 --> 0:28:38.207 very it's as old as time right, like wealthy people 0:28:38.847 --> 0:28:43.007 subsidizing arts, subsidizing sports, subsidizing events, and then your job 0:28:43.127 --> 0:28:45.527 is to just not say anything mean about them. It 0:28:45.767 --> 0:28:50.127 just gets Gina because one of the interesting things about 0:28:50.207 --> 0:28:52.807 why does Gina do this. She's got a lot of 0:28:52.847 --> 0:28:54.727 money and you know, I'm sure it's fun to decide 0:28:54.767 --> 0:28:57.407 what you want to do with it. Is there has 0:28:57.487 --> 0:28:59.967 to be a level here where it's in exchange for something, yeah, 0:29:00.007 --> 0:29:03.527 and it seems to be in exchange for influence, cultural influence, 0:29:04.247 --> 0:29:07.607 because we know how Australia feels about the swimming, particularly 0:29:07.687 --> 0:29:09.847 every four years. And in fact there will be a 0:29:09.967 --> 0:29:13.447 very strong argument being mounted right now that Australia's best 0:29:13.527 --> 0:29:17.767 ever Olympic results are a direct result of Gina. There 0:29:17.847 --> 0:29:20.247 has been a report I read this investigation in the 0:29:20.287 --> 0:29:22.407 Herald that was sort of trying to uncover what some 0:29:22.527 --> 0:29:26.007 of this influence might look like. And she famously had 0:29:26.047 --> 0:29:28.647 a big falling out with Swimming Australia a few years 0:29:28.687 --> 0:29:33.447 ago and withdrew funding from that organization, but carried on 0:29:33.527 --> 0:29:36.047 a partnership with Swimming Queensland and as you said, Jesse, 0:29:36.487 --> 0:29:38.967 going directly to the swimmers instead. They seem to have 0:29:39.047 --> 0:29:40.767 been patching that up because I think they had to. 0:29:41.487 --> 0:29:44.447 But for example, at that time there were reports that 0:29:45.367 --> 0:29:50.047 Hancock Prospecting were asking for things like could Swimming Australia 0:29:50.127 --> 0:29:53.407 not support Pride months in a public way, could they 0:29:53.527 --> 0:29:57.847 take the acknowledgment of country off their website and off 0:29:57.927 --> 0:30:01.047 their Instagram posts and things like that. Wow, and then 0:30:01.287 --> 0:30:02.007 we talked about this. 0:30:02.087 --> 0:30:02.607 I can't remember. 0:30:03.887 --> 0:30:06.247 I'm not sure that they did because I'm not sure 0:30:06.287 --> 0:30:10.807 if it was that direct. When the Herald asked Hancock 0:30:10.847 --> 0:30:13.407 Prospecting directly, is it true that you asked for those 0:30:14.007 --> 0:30:17.447 The statements that came back were like, Hancock Prospecting doesn't 0:30:17.487 --> 0:30:19.887 believe that politics has any place in sports. So they 0:30:19.927 --> 0:30:22.447 didn't say yes or no. They just said this is 0:30:22.527 --> 0:30:23.087 our thing, right. 0:30:23.447 --> 0:30:24.607 And it's like when there was. 0:30:24.607 --> 0:30:30.447 That farua is how I say fual around the Gina 0:30:30.607 --> 0:30:34.007 ryin Hart portraits in the National Gallery. We went into 0:30:34.047 --> 0:30:35.167 this on the show, so I won't go into it 0:30:35.207 --> 0:30:38.447 in big detail, but you like it. She did like it, 0:30:39.567 --> 0:30:42.487 and an email was sent out to all her swimmers, 0:30:42.567 --> 0:30:45.527 her swimmers or the swimmers that said athletes. It has 0:30:45.607 --> 0:30:48.447 come to our attention that there are some portraits of 0:30:48.527 --> 0:30:51.407 missus Rhyinhart displayed in both the National and South Australian 0:30:51.527 --> 0:30:54.927 Art Galleries that she, rightly so in brackets, finds offensive 0:30:54.967 --> 0:30:57.607 and insulting. I've attached them here so you can see them. 0:30:57.967 --> 0:30:59.887 We will be reaching out to the CEO of the 0:30:59.967 --> 0:31:02.207 galleries to express our concerns with the pieces that they 0:31:02.287 --> 0:31:04.527 do not represent the image or the reputation that is 0:31:04.607 --> 0:31:07.407 deserved as the patron of our sport, to assist in 0:31:07.487 --> 0:31:10.087 the message. It would be great to weight behind it 0:31:10.167 --> 0:31:12.647 as a collective group, giving that you are athletes that 0:31:12.767 --> 0:31:17.967 she loves and supports so generously. They said it wasn't compulsory, 0:31:18.407 --> 0:31:21.887 but it would be appreciated, and swimmers like Kyle Chalmers did. 0:31:22.327 --> 0:31:24.527 They came out publicly and said, I think she deserves 0:31:24.567 --> 0:31:27.887 to be praised and I think these portraits are unfair 0:31:27.967 --> 0:31:31.287 and without her sponsorship we'd have nothing. So then she 0:31:31.447 --> 0:31:33.567 has these big galas at her mansion. When the swimmers 0:31:33.607 --> 0:31:35.527 all come up and get awards from her, she gives 0:31:35.567 --> 0:31:38.767 them MacBooks and treats and they all have to say 0:31:38.847 --> 0:31:41.207 nice things. Like Ariann Tipmas went up and said, you know, 0:31:41.247 --> 0:31:44.567 I wouldn't have anything without you. So it's influence on 0:31:44.687 --> 0:31:47.367 a big part of Australian culture. And is there a 0:31:47.447 --> 0:31:48.327 problem with that or not? 0:31:48.567 --> 0:31:51.287 Mia, Well, yeah, I mean in the same way that 0:31:51.487 --> 0:31:58.407 the gambling companies have influenced in commercial television and if 0:31:58.447 --> 0:32:01.887 you're a big advertiser, depending on the media organization, but 0:32:02.007 --> 0:32:06.047 why do you think the media companies are lobbying politicians 0:32:06.727 --> 0:32:09.927 to block this bill, to block any legislation that could 0:32:09.967 --> 0:32:10.767 turn the tap off. 0:32:11.807 --> 0:32:13.847 So it is really. 0:32:13.687 --> 0:32:18.847 Insidious, and I think that you don't even realize it. 0:32:19.047 --> 0:32:20.767 Like the stuff that you were just saying about we 0:32:20.847 --> 0:32:24.847 don't want swimming Australia to participate in Pride Month, that 0:32:25.087 --> 0:32:30.367 is really one person's view. She's buying cultural influence. 0:32:30.447 --> 0:32:33.207 Quite literally, I've been thinking a lot. I was speaking 0:32:33.207 --> 0:32:36.047 to a friend over the weekend about imagining the last 0:32:36.367 --> 0:32:40.687 three years where the swimmers get pulled into private meetings 0:32:40.727 --> 0:32:44.047 and it's like, repeat up to me. We love Gina, 0:32:44.447 --> 0:32:47.287 we love we can't say anything bad about Gina. And 0:32:47.367 --> 0:32:49.847 someone's like, I just want to do my backstroke. I 0:32:49.927 --> 0:32:53.247 don't like, I don't want to get into all of 0:32:53.327 --> 0:32:53.527 this t. 0:32:53.967 --> 0:32:56.247 Well, I mean, we know what happened when she tried 0:32:56.287 --> 0:33:01.247 to sponsor the Diamonds. The Diamonds and Nepal Australia wanted 0:33:01.287 --> 0:33:02.567 to take the money because they. 0:33:02.527 --> 0:33:03.207 Really needed it. 0:33:03.367 --> 0:33:06.727 The sport was in difficult financial straits and the players 0:33:06.767 --> 0:33:10.647 were like, we're not comfortable with this person whose father 0:33:11.247 --> 0:33:15.927 had said that Aboriginal people should be sterilized where uncomfortable 0:33:15.967 --> 0:33:21.407 with wearing his name Hancock prospecting on our outfits whatever 0:33:21.407 --> 0:33:24.487 they're called sporting uniforms while we play thought and so 0:33:24.607 --> 0:33:27.247 she withdrew the money. Yeah, because why she wouldn't disavow 0:33:27.287 --> 0:33:27.807 those comments. 0:33:27.927 --> 0:33:30.447 I wonder how we'd feel about our athletes, you know, 0:33:30.607 --> 0:33:33.607 turning up to the opening ceremony with Hancock pect like 0:33:34.047 --> 0:33:37.727 emblazoned on on their front or whatever. And I in 0:33:37.847 --> 0:33:40.527 these situations either way, I actually feel for the athletes, 0:33:40.647 --> 0:33:43.207 because the athletes, even the rugby league player with points 0:33:43.247 --> 0:33:45.007 bet on his shirt, Yeah, he just wants to go 0:33:45.007 --> 0:33:47.007 and play the star he loves and he wants to 0:33:47.007 --> 0:33:48.287 get paid for it so that he can do it 0:33:48.367 --> 0:33:51.807 full time. And the kind of complicated, high level stuff. 0:33:52.007 --> 0:33:55.007 I just think it's ethically frat, but it is really 0:33:55.087 --> 0:33:56.767 really complicated. I acknowledge that. 0:33:59.087 --> 0:34:02.807 One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday 0:34:02.887 --> 0:34:06.927 and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link 0:34:06.967 --> 0:34:08.607 in the show notes to get us in your ears 0:34:08.967 --> 0:34:11.687 five days a week, and a huge thank you to 0:34:11.927 --> 0:34:13.487 all our current subscribers. 0:34:19.367 --> 0:34:21.167 You may have heard or seen something about doing a 0:34:21.247 --> 0:34:24.207 dopamine detox it's become a bit of a viral wellness 0:34:24.287 --> 0:34:27.207 trend in the last little while, and so we wanted 0:34:27.207 --> 0:34:30.727 to unpack what it involves and who needs one. First 0:34:30.767 --> 0:34:33.767 of all, what is dopamine. It is the brain's own 0:34:33.887 --> 0:34:36.207 reward system. So if you think of it as the 0:34:36.407 --> 0:34:39.567 brain's way of saying, Hey, that felt good, let's do 0:34:39.647 --> 0:34:44.047 it again. And it's the neurotransmitter that's responsible for feelings 0:34:44.087 --> 0:34:48.327 of pleasure and reward and motivation. Whether it's biting into 0:34:48.367 --> 0:34:52.727 your favorite dessert or achieving a personal goal, Dopamine is 0:34:52.807 --> 0:34:55.927 there cheering you on and keeping you coming back for more. 0:34:56.807 --> 0:35:00.007 So having the activities that give you this dopamine hit 0:35:00.207 --> 0:35:03.847 as part of your lifestyle allows dopamine to be released 0:35:03.847 --> 0:35:06.727 through your brain's reward system, and so as a result, 0:35:06.807 --> 0:35:09.127 the pleasure will lift your mood and it will make 0:35:09.127 --> 0:35:13.047 you feel more motivated and focused and less stressed. And 0:35:13.247 --> 0:35:15.687 dopamine can even act as a bit of a pain reliever. 0:35:15.927 --> 0:35:19.287 So the obvious question is why we choose to detox 0:35:19.367 --> 0:35:23.287 from feelings of pleasure. That sounds very puritan Well, the 0:35:23.407 --> 0:35:26.767 problem with dopamine inducing activities is that we come to 0:35:26.887 --> 0:35:30.287 rely on them too much. Talking about addiction. They can 0:35:30.407 --> 0:35:33.087 leave us craving more and more and more, and it's 0:35:33.247 --> 0:35:35.927 like trying to fill a bucket with a hole in it. 0:35:36.167 --> 0:35:41.087 According to clinical psychologists, they say that excessive engagement in 0:35:41.647 --> 0:35:44.767 sort of activities that give you a dopamine hit, especially 0:35:44.847 --> 0:35:49.807 when they involve instant gratification, can prompt over stimulation of 0:35:50.287 --> 0:35:53.647 your dopamine system, and that can lead to addictive behaviors 0:35:53.927 --> 0:35:58.487 and negative consequences. And they also say that when you 0:35:58.607 --> 0:36:03.047 become overly reliant on dopamine inducing activities, gambling is a 0:36:03.127 --> 0:36:06.967 really good example, it can dull our sensitivity to pleasure. 0:36:07.287 --> 0:36:08.887 So they say that you know, if you look at 0:36:08.927 --> 0:36:12.407 things liken or gambling to use extremes, the high that 0:36:12.527 --> 0:36:16.247 you get can mean that you're constantly chasing a higher 0:36:16.287 --> 0:36:20.487 and higher high, and so called normal pleasures just don't 0:36:20.527 --> 0:36:25.487 give you that hit of dopamine. So dopamine detox means 0:36:25.527 --> 0:36:29.127 that you fast from dopamine producing activities or anything that 0:36:29.247 --> 0:36:32.407 gives you pleasure. That sounds horrendous, and the idea of 0:36:32.487 --> 0:36:37.087 it is that you decrease reward sensitivity. Although it's important 0:36:37.127 --> 0:36:39.527 to say there's no scientific evidence to support the concept 0:36:39.647 --> 0:36:41.727 of a dopamine detox. It's really just kind of an 0:36:41.847 --> 0:36:44.647 Internet thing that people are talking about. So, for example, 0:36:44.687 --> 0:36:46.807 we spoke on the show a little while ago about 0:36:46.967 --> 0:36:50.327 raw dogging on flights. So our phones are probably the 0:36:50.367 --> 0:36:53.287 biggest hit of dopamine that we get. Everyone gets, whether 0:36:53.327 --> 0:36:57.287 you're checking things, scrolling, all the different ways that our 0:36:57.367 --> 0:37:00.447 phone relies on us being addicted by giving us those 0:37:00.487 --> 0:37:03.407 little hits of dopamine that we're constantly looking for, which 0:37:03.447 --> 0:37:06.287 is why we end up doom scrolling, because we're scrolling 0:37:06.327 --> 0:37:08.967 and scrolling looking for the hit and thinking, I'll just 0:37:08.967 --> 0:37:10.727 stay a bit longer in case I get that hit 0:37:10.807 --> 0:37:15.207 because I need more. If you do a dopamine detox 0:37:15.607 --> 0:37:18.367 and you're trying to, for example, limit your screen time, 0:37:18.407 --> 0:37:21.047 which is one way of doing it, the typical timeframe 0:37:21.127 --> 0:37:23.487 is doing it for two to four weeks, says a 0:37:23.807 --> 0:37:26.607 doctor who was quoted in an article about this. He 0:37:26.807 --> 0:37:29.247 says that you might feel irritable and moody during the 0:37:29.287 --> 0:37:31.767 first week or two as you reduce your engagement with 0:37:31.887 --> 0:37:35.607 the feel good activities. Jesse, do you need a dopamine detox? 0:37:35.927 --> 0:37:37.807 I wouldn't have called it this, but I do this 0:37:38.047 --> 0:37:40.527 all the time because I'm very aware of it rather 0:37:40.607 --> 0:37:42.607 than dopamine. The way I think about it is like 0:37:43.247 --> 0:37:48.247 over stimulation or over arousal. In order to feel stimulated. 0:37:48.887 --> 0:37:51.647 If I am on my couch and I go all right, 0:37:51.807 --> 0:37:53.727 in order for me not to feel bored, I have 0:37:53.847 --> 0:37:55.887 to have my phone, my laptop, my TV on and 0:37:56.167 --> 0:37:59.767 music going, and also half reading a book. That's a problem. 0:37:59.927 --> 0:38:01.527 And I don't think that's good for me or my 0:38:01.607 --> 0:38:05.367 brain all the way I live my life. So I 0:38:05.567 --> 0:38:09.807 will consciously go all right, we're taking down the arousal 0:38:10.247 --> 0:38:12.447 so that I can do the things that because then 0:38:12.487 --> 0:38:14.327 of course when I get into bed and open my book, 0:38:14.527 --> 0:38:17.807 of course that's not going to stimulate because where's the dopamine. 0:38:18.567 --> 0:38:19.847 Or sit on the floor to read a book with 0:38:19.887 --> 0:38:20.287 your child. 0:38:20.447 --> 0:38:22.887 Yeah, and that's parenting, I think is a good example, 0:38:23.007 --> 0:38:25.367 because parenting a child for a day is a dop 0:38:25.407 --> 0:38:28.927 for meat because even at work, right, you've got the 0:38:29.007 --> 0:38:30.767 slack messages, and you've got your cup of coffee or 0:38:30.847 --> 0:38:32.967 like all the little things that kind of keep you going, 0:38:33.087 --> 0:38:34.887 the almost little treat culture of. 0:38:34.927 --> 0:38:37.167 It for it. Sorry, I'm just trying to understand. For 0:38:37.247 --> 0:38:38.687 it to qualify as to op means you have to 0:38:38.927 --> 0:38:40.767 like it. Or is it just that you're addicted to it? 0:38:40.847 --> 0:38:44.127 Because so say, I'm as guilty as this is everybody 0:38:44.327 --> 0:38:46.327 constantly looking at my phone, look at my phone, looking phone. 0:38:46.367 --> 0:38:49.927 But it also makes me feel really overwhelmed when my 0:38:50.087 --> 0:38:52.647 Slack messages are going bing bing bing, and my text 0:38:52.687 --> 0:38:55.047 messages and I do it all the time, but it's 0:38:55.087 --> 0:38:57.887 not like I go, oh, goody my phone being and 0:38:57.927 --> 0:38:58.727 I generally. 0:38:59.167 --> 0:39:02.127 But you're still getting a dopamine hit because it's it's 0:39:02.167 --> 0:39:03.567 making stimulation. 0:39:03.367 --> 0:39:06.847 And it's holding your attention, and you're right, when you're 0:39:06.847 --> 0:39:10.367 getting really overwhelmed, it means that you've got too much 0:39:10.447 --> 0:39:10.567 of it. 0:39:11.087 --> 0:39:13.767 And I remember I used to tutor kids and you know, 0:39:13.927 --> 0:39:16.287 try to get them to write an essay, and they 0:39:16.327 --> 0:39:18.247 would be sitting in their room and they'd go, yeah, 0:39:18.247 --> 0:39:19.687 I've been trying to write my essay. And they'd have 0:39:19.967 --> 0:39:23.127 music on, they'd have a stress ball, all these different 0:39:23.167 --> 0:39:27.167 points often phone, laptop, eleven tabs open. And I was like, well, 0:39:27.167 --> 0:39:28.527 you're not going to be able to write your essay 0:39:28.647 --> 0:39:32.487 like that because this is all antithetical to focus, because 0:39:32.607 --> 0:39:38.247 you're getting dopamine from so many different points of stimulus 0:39:38.647 --> 0:39:40.767 that it's going to be way too boring for you 0:39:40.887 --> 0:39:43.247 to do anything. And this is where the issue actually comes. 0:39:43.767 --> 0:39:48.207 Is anything that's purposeful or meaningful or goal oriented you 0:39:48.327 --> 0:39:51.567 can't achieve because dopamine's getting in the way. Because there 0:39:51.607 --> 0:39:52.967 are ten things that are going to make you feel 0:39:53.007 --> 0:39:54.727 better than doing the essay right now, But you should 0:39:54.767 --> 0:39:56.367 do the essay right now because it's better for the 0:39:56.447 --> 0:39:58.407 long term. So it's also about hedonism. 0:39:58.527 --> 0:40:02.847 I think it's about the attention economy and how the 0:40:02.927 --> 0:40:06.447 digital world has made all of us addicted to dopamine 0:40:06.567 --> 0:40:09.327 because everything about it is it rewards instant gratification, and 0:40:09.407 --> 0:40:11.567 it's built on instant gratification, and the things that you 0:40:11.647 --> 0:40:15.407 talk about reading a book, doing an assignment, there's no 0:40:15.527 --> 0:40:18.887 instant gratification. They're just a hard slog and there's not 0:40:18.927 --> 0:40:21.967 a lot of dopamine in the short term involved, like 0:40:22.087 --> 0:40:25.527 it's I'll give you some examples of low stimulus or 0:40:25.607 --> 0:40:32.607 low dopamine activities. Examples include meditation, gentle exercise, reading in moderation. 0:40:33.287 --> 0:40:35.127 That's exactly how I don't know how to read. I 0:40:35.207 --> 0:40:38.767 only know how to read like hard and fast, spending 0:40:38.807 --> 0:40:42.727 time in nature, all the things I hate. Engaging in 0:40:42.887 --> 0:40:46.087 these activities during your detox helps maintain a calmer and 0:40:46.127 --> 0:40:47.127 more focused state of mind. 0:40:47.167 --> 0:40:50.167 They say, you know what else? You know what else? 0:40:50.527 --> 0:40:54.487 Most of those tasks don't have attention instant gratification aside 0:40:55.127 --> 0:40:57.687 is you don't have to pay for them. So yeah, 0:40:58.007 --> 0:41:01.727 this is also about consumerism. This is about the attention economy, yes, 0:41:02.087 --> 0:41:04.887 but it's also about what you can buy. Because if 0:41:05.327 --> 0:41:08.247 where all one purchase away from happiness, which is what 0:41:08.407 --> 0:41:10.367 capitalism selves are us that if we just buy that 0:41:10.447 --> 0:41:13.967 one more thing, we're gonna be happy. Then we're constantly 0:41:14.207 --> 0:41:18.727 on this flywheel of just next, next, next. But the 0:41:18.847 --> 0:41:22.047 things that you named is like, there's this difference between 0:41:22.647 --> 0:41:23.767 dopamine and happiness. 0:41:24.047 --> 0:41:25.207 Do you like doing those things? 0:41:25.247 --> 0:41:26.327 I love doing those things. 0:41:26.367 --> 0:41:29.447 I also also ADHD affects this right me. You don't 0:41:29.487 --> 0:41:33.047 say they're feeling like in any way bad that You're like, 0:41:33.167 --> 0:41:35.007 I don't like that stuff. There must be something wrong 0:41:35.047 --> 0:41:35.207 with me. 0:41:35.327 --> 0:41:37.127 You know that that's not true, Like you know that's 0:41:37.167 --> 0:41:37.527 not true. 0:41:37.727 --> 0:41:39.767 And we talked about this on one of our subs 0:41:39.807 --> 0:41:41.927 episodes last week, and then I talked about it on Friday. 0:41:42.007 --> 0:41:45.847 But the thing I worry about about this is putting 0:41:46.087 --> 0:41:50.967 like moral value almost on the things that bring you pleasure. 0:41:51.647 --> 0:41:53.687 Because one of the things that I've really come to 0:41:53.807 --> 0:41:56.487 understand about judging this kind of stuff is, you know 0:41:56.567 --> 0:41:58.447 the scenario that you explained at the beginning of this 0:41:58.567 --> 0:42:00.567 jesse where you're like, you're on your couch with your 0:42:00.607 --> 0:42:03.847 book and your TV and your phone, and I kind 0:42:03.887 --> 0:42:05.527 of do that to myself, but then I begin to 0:42:05.527 --> 0:42:08.407 feel a bit sick, and so I have to m claustrophobic. Yeah, 0:42:08.927 --> 0:42:11.087 that's not how it makes you feel, is it. Like 0:42:11.207 --> 0:42:12.887 you've explained this to me lots of times and so 0:42:12.967 --> 0:42:16.007 of other people that like that makes you feel calmer. 0:42:16.527 --> 0:42:19.647 So that so unable to focus better. 0:42:19.887 --> 0:42:22.567 So for me to sit there and say to somebody 0:42:22.967 --> 0:42:25.447 to say to you, like, you know what you should 0:42:25.447 --> 0:42:27.647 do me, you should turn everything off and go for a. 0:42:27.647 --> 0:42:28.367 Walk in the park. 0:42:28.687 --> 0:42:31.247 Like that isn't necessary. I mean maybe it is, I 0:42:31.247 --> 0:42:33.247 don't know, but I don't think that is going to 0:42:33.287 --> 0:42:35.967 make you feel better. And feeling like you should be 0:42:36.047 --> 0:42:36.887 doing that is making you. 0:42:36.927 --> 0:42:39.247 Feel worse, right anxious exactly. 0:42:39.727 --> 0:42:42.887 The language of detox, which is borrowed obviously from all 0:42:42.967 --> 0:42:46.847 addictive stuff, and we'd say that giving up alcohol when 0:42:46.887 --> 0:42:49.647 you've got an issue with it is incredibly difficult and challenging, 0:42:49.687 --> 0:42:50.927 and you have to push through it to get to 0:42:51.007 --> 0:42:53.087 a good place. God, maybe not even a good place, 0:42:53.167 --> 0:42:56.487 a stable, steady place. Are we saying by using the 0:42:56.527 --> 0:42:59.687 word detox in this context? Are we saying that Mia 0:43:00.167 --> 0:43:02.047 has to close all her tabs and go and sit 0:43:02.127 --> 0:43:05.807 in a park, even if that makes her really anxious 0:43:05.847 --> 0:43:09.007 and unhappy, because eventually she's going to see the light. 0:43:09.327 --> 0:43:12.367 That's not how your brain works, right, see the light. 0:43:12.527 --> 0:43:15.127 I think the interesting thing about what you just said 0:43:15.767 --> 0:43:19.167 is about how you two actually like those things. So 0:43:19.287 --> 0:43:23.687 those low dopamine activities, your baseline is that you enjoy them. 0:43:24.487 --> 0:43:27.647 I've always detested them, and I have always felt that 0:43:27.687 --> 0:43:29.927 it's a moral failing you. Now everyone's like, go outside 0:43:29.967 --> 0:43:32.447 and touch grass, and you know, go for a walk 0:43:32.487 --> 0:43:35.207 on the beach and try meditation. Learning that I had 0:43:35.247 --> 0:43:40.687 ADHD and learning what ADHD is. It's essentially a dysfunctional 0:43:40.807 --> 0:43:41.607 reward system. 0:43:42.007 --> 0:43:43.487 Or it's about dopamine right. 0:43:43.407 --> 0:43:47.247 One hundred percent. So it's a completely dysfunctional dopamine reward system. 0:43:47.287 --> 0:43:50.327 Because we don't naturally produce enough of it, we have 0:43:50.487 --> 0:43:54.167 to look for it externally. It might be taking risks, 0:43:54.567 --> 0:43:58.847 it might be jumping around, it might be fidget spinners. 0:43:59.007 --> 0:44:02.647 We need more stimulation than the average bear. It's either 0:44:02.687 --> 0:44:04.967 we don't produce it enough naturally or we don't use 0:44:05.007 --> 0:44:08.967 it sufficiently. So what ADHD medication does is that it 0:44:09.047 --> 0:44:12.567 are officially gives you dopamine, which helps you concentrate. Right, So, 0:44:12.607 --> 0:44:15.087 if you even look at caffeine, caffeine in someone who 0:44:15.367 --> 0:44:19.727 doesn't have ADHD is a stimulant. Caffeine for someone who 0:44:19.807 --> 0:44:22.487 does have ADHD is a stimulant, but it also helps 0:44:22.527 --> 0:44:25.287 you focus, and that's a big difference. 0:44:25.687 --> 0:44:29.087 What I've always found strange about you is that so. 0:44:29.247 --> 0:44:31.567 Many, so many you can't go on all day. 0:44:32.727 --> 0:44:36.207 So true is that even though you're addicted to dopamine 0:44:36.287 --> 0:44:37.847 and you wear your bright colors and you've got your 0:44:37.847 --> 0:44:41.127 fidgets and you've got your phone, you still get the 0:44:41.167 --> 0:44:45.087 big things done. And to me, that's why I hate 0:44:45.087 --> 0:44:47.087 the distractions, because I feel like they're going to stop 0:44:47.127 --> 0:44:49.487 me from getting the big things done. But you're able 0:44:49.567 --> 0:44:53.247 to use the adrenaline. The whole thing about the reason 0:44:53.287 --> 0:44:56.127 why we were detox off dopamine is of what we're 0:44:56.207 --> 0:44:58.447 missing out on. But I'm not sure you're missing out 0:44:58.447 --> 0:44:58.687 on me. 0:44:59.567 --> 0:45:01.367 That's why it can't be one size fits all. 0:45:01.687 --> 0:45:04.967 No, But I am because my dopamine, my biggest dopamine 0:45:05.007 --> 0:45:08.407 hit his work. So when you say I get the 0:45:08.447 --> 0:45:11.407 big things done, I get the work big things done. 0:45:11.687 --> 0:45:13.327 Also because I don't have a choice because I'm co 0:45:13.447 --> 0:45:15.967 owned the business, but I get the work things done. 0:45:16.007 --> 0:45:18.327 I've got an enormous tank for work. It gives me 0:45:18.367 --> 0:45:19.007 a dope mein hit. 0:45:19.327 --> 0:45:19.447 Now. 0:45:19.487 --> 0:45:21.127 There are a lot of people who work in jobs 0:45:21.167 --> 0:45:24.087 where they get no dopamine out of their job at all. 0:45:24.407 --> 0:45:26.247 It doesn't mean I love every minute of it, but 0:45:26.287 --> 0:45:28.487 I find it very energizing and it's interesting to me. 0:45:29.487 --> 0:45:31.487 What I don't get done are a lot of the 0:45:31.567 --> 0:45:34.047 things that I really need to get done, like registering 0:45:34.087 --> 0:45:37.007 my car or cooking dinners that I just can't get 0:45:37.047 --> 0:45:39.887 done because there's never been any dopamine in it for me. 0:45:39.967 --> 0:45:41.607 So I think the way to know if you should 0:45:41.647 --> 0:45:44.967 do a dopamin detox or not, like anything, is your 0:45:45.047 --> 0:45:47.847 life unmanageable? Like is it difficult? And when you both 0:45:47.927 --> 0:45:50.167 talk about how you feel when it's just a bit much, 0:45:51.367 --> 0:45:54.847 and then you do need to get back to that baseline. 0:45:54.407 --> 0:45:57.167 That that's when my life becomes a money overwhelm. 0:45:57.207 --> 0:46:00.047 It gives you something rather than going for a walk 0:46:00.167 --> 0:46:02.047 just doesn't give me anything, and I don't have time. 0:46:03.127 --> 0:46:05.727 You might need to recalibrate your levels of dopamine, but 0:46:05.767 --> 0:46:09.247 when you have ADHD your whole life, your every waking minute. 0:46:09.287 --> 0:46:11.927 It is about trying to manage your dopamine levels in 0:46:12.007 --> 0:46:14.327 a way that's constructive, not destructive. 0:46:15.007 --> 0:46:16.887 Very interesting, Yeah, out Ladders. 0:46:16.927 --> 0:46:19.167 Will put in our newsletter this week some links to 0:46:19.607 --> 0:46:22.567 a few articles about this, because as always, I mean, 0:46:22.607 --> 0:46:24.887 I know, we're not saying you should detox from anything 0:46:25.207 --> 0:46:28.727 like medical, but never do anything extreme or anything any 0:46:28.767 --> 0:46:31.807 wellness trend that you see on the internet without really 0:46:31.847 --> 0:46:34.647 looking into it, because it just might not be for you. 0:46:35.767 --> 0:46:39.407 Will Taylor formally endorsed Kamala Harris or has she already? 0:46:39.487 --> 0:46:40.807 When you say Taylor you mean. 0:46:43.447 --> 0:46:45.967 Shere me needs the first name as opposed to the 0:46:46.127 --> 0:46:49.567 potential future president of the United States? Or has she already? 0:46:49.647 --> 0:46:53.247 In yesterday's subscriber episode, we unpacked all the latest from 0:46:53.287 --> 0:46:55.487 the US election. We want to know if you're interested 0:46:55.527 --> 0:46:57.367 in this, because we could talk about the US election 0:46:57.607 --> 0:47:00.447 all day. A lot has happened. Trump is losing his 0:47:00.567 --> 0:47:02.087 mind a little bit we've had. 0:47:03.287 --> 0:47:05.007 I so love that you guys are on this train 0:47:05.087 --> 0:47:07.247 and that I'm back on it. So subscribers, we know 0:47:07.327 --> 0:47:10.607 that the US politics isn't for everyone. Tried making it 0:47:10.647 --> 0:47:13.127 a subscriber episode this week. Gosh, we had a good time. 0:47:13.247 --> 0:47:14.687 We'll put a link in the show notes if you 0:47:14.767 --> 0:47:15.127 want to have a. 0:47:15.167 --> 0:47:17.527 Listen, Yes, go and listen. If you like it, tell 0:47:17.607 --> 0:47:20.007 us we want to know. A massive thank you to 0:47:20.087 --> 0:47:22.247 all of you out louderus for listening to our show 0:47:22.287 --> 0:47:25.007 today and every time you do it. We really appreciate it, 0:47:25.087 --> 0:47:27.367 and of course to our fabulous team for putting it together. 0:47:27.607 --> 0:47:29.207 We're going to be back in your ears tomorrow. 0:47:29.367 --> 0:47:33.047 Bye bye bye. Shout out to any Mum and Mia 0:47:33.127 --> 0:47:35.967 subscribers listening. If you love the show and you want 0:47:35.967 --> 0:47:38.967 to support us, subscribing to MoMA Mia is the very 0:47:39.087 --> 0:47:39.807 best way. 0:47:39.727 --> 0:47:40.127 To do so. 0:47:40.567 --> 0:47:42.287 There's a link in the episode description.