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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia. Out loud what women are actually talking about

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Speaker 2: On Wednesday, August the fourteenth, I'm Holly Wainwright.

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Speaker 1: I'm mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 2: And on the show today, a TV presenter suffered a

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Speaker 2: panic attack live on air and everyone's so very grateful.

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Speaker 2: Also why gambling companies are on every Footy Jersey and

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Speaker 2: Gina Reinhart is sitting poolside in Paris? Who fun sport?

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Speaker 2: And why does it matter? And ditching scrolling sex, wine shopping,

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Speaker 2: what's a dopamine detox? And could you survive? But first

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Speaker 2: MEA Friedman? O Katie, Mister.

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Speaker 3: Baby name regret is real and it's estimated that around

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Speaker 3: ten percent of parents don't like the name that they

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Speaker 3: chose for their child, as opposed to the percentage of

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Speaker 3: people who don't like the name that celebrities choose for

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Speaker 3: their children, which is probably much higher. This week, Kylie

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Speaker 3: Jenna has given an interview to British Fogue where she

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Speaker 3: explains the turmoil that she experienced when she named her

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Speaker 3: second child, a son called Air spelled Are, but who

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Speaker 3: used to be called Knight spelled knigt. She said, my

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Speaker 3: son's name was actually Knight for a long time. And

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Speaker 3: my daughter still to this day, is like, do you

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Speaker 3: remember when Air's name was Night? And I'm like no,

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Speaker 3: and she's like, that was so funny, Mum. I like

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Speaker 3: Night better, and I'm like, you know what, We're not

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Speaker 3: doing this again, and she went on that actually is funny.

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Speaker 3: She went on to say that she really struggled to

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Speaker 3: name her son and she was hysterically crying on the

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Speaker 3: phone to her mother. Chris spelled Kris on the phone,

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Speaker 3: and she said to her, Chris with k I can't

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Speaker 3: figure out his name. Now. My advice to all my

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Speaker 3: friends having children. He's picked the name before, because when

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Speaker 3: the hormones hit, you can't make decisions. You can't, she cries.

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Speaker 3: When I met him, he was just the most beautiful

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Speaker 3: thing to me, and I couldn't believe just how perfect

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Speaker 3: he was. I felt like such a failure that I

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Speaker 3: couldn't name him. He deserved so much more than that.

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Speaker 3: It just really triggered me.

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Speaker 1: I don't often say that Kylie Jenner is relatable. I

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Speaker 1: found this incredibly, very relatable. I think she's spot on

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Speaker 1: the idea that you go through something like giving birth

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Speaker 1: and then you're expected to make a rational, logical, administrative decision.

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Speaker 3: With respect you have nine months.

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Speaker 1: Yes, but a lot of people we were the same.

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Speaker 1: We kind of went, oh, we'll meet her that last.

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Speaker 1: When we look at her, we'll know. And I had

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Speaker 1: no feelings either way. You're often incredibly sleep deprived. Luca

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Speaker 1: was very committed to Luna. I ended up saying, yes,

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Speaker 1: I had no feelings at the time. I still the

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Speaker 1: name is like, she just is Luna. I think we

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Speaker 1: probably give too much stock to a name. We do,

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Speaker 1: But I don't feel strongly either. I just had no

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Speaker 1: capacity to make a decision, which is what she's So.

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Speaker 1: You don't have regret, No, I don't have regret. Do

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Speaker 1: you want to know the breakdown of why people have regret?

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Speaker 4: Yes.

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Speaker 3: Of the people who regret it, twenty five percent say

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Speaker 3: it's because the name is too common. Twenty what do

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Speaker 3: you know, lunas? I think number one or two most

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Speaker 3: common names. Twenty one percent of name regrettas say that

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Speaker 3: it just doesn't feel right and twenty percent say that

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Speaker 3: I never liked it. I was pressured into using it yep.

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Speaker 3: Eleven percent say it causes problems with spelling or pronunciation,

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Speaker 3: like air with an E, and eleven percent say it

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Speaker 3: just doesn't suit my kid.

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Speaker 2: I used to I think we both did. Me a

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Speaker 2: work with someone who changed their baby's name after like

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Speaker 2: a year, and it's more common than you think. And

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Speaker 2: the thing is, is, just like everything about parenting, when

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Speaker 2: you do that case in point, Kylie Jenner, a lot

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Speaker 2: of people have a lot of feelings.

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Speaker 3: I'm really angry.

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Speaker 2: Why do they get so angry about that?

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Speaker 3: Sofya Keisha changed her names. I don't know why people care.

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Speaker 2: People care deeply.

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Speaker 1: I think that's probably a threshold. What do we think

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Speaker 1: it is?

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Speaker 4: Like?

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Speaker 5: Eight?

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Speaker 1: Can you not change your name anymore?

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Speaker 6: The thing is is.

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Speaker 1: That my daughter still.

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Speaker 2: One of the little triggers of why it probably irritate

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Speaker 2: people is because it feels very vain, like I'm not

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Speaker 2: saying that it is, but I can see why it does,

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Speaker 2: because you know how you just said, Luna just is

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Speaker 2: Luna and you don't really think about it. I think

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Speaker 2: that's how most people feel about their kids' names. Is

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Speaker 2: they like we liked it. At the time, we didn't

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Speaker 2: really realize that we liked it because we're part of

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Speaker 2: a culture where everybody likes it too, hence Luna, hence

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Speaker 2: the fact that Matilda is usually in a sporting team

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Speaker 2: with like five other Matilda's. Because of that particular moment

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Speaker 2: was the name, and we thought we were being different.

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Speaker 2: And I think most of us go, you suck it

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Speaker 2: up and you deal with it. But if you've got

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Speaker 2: the balls or the female version of balls to go, no,

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Speaker 2: I don't like it. I'm going to change it. It feels that.

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Speaker 3: I think that's the Manchester view, right view. Is why

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Speaker 3: it makes people upset is because it's suddenly like, is

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Speaker 3: that something that we can do? Is that something we're

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Speaker 3: doing now? Because then it hadn't occurred to me that

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Speaker 3: I could change my child's name, And now I've got

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Speaker 3: the mental load of thinking maybe I got it wrong. True,

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Speaker 3: I like the idea. You've made a decision, Okay, next, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: So if it's like, well, you could change it if

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Speaker 3: you wanted to, too many choices.

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Speaker 2: Oh, well, you could just give them the nickname like

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Speaker 2: his called Night, but we call him a Why I

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Speaker 2: don't care it's family. We just do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no one knows the Bethti forget. My uncle was

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Speaker 1: tasked with the job of writing down the kid's name, Like,

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Speaker 1: you know, the wife's just given birth. Can you go

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Speaker 1: and do the forms? Filled out the forms wrong, middle

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Speaker 1: and first came the wrong way around. Really, they're still

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Speaker 1: pissed about it.

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Speaker 3: It's hard when you're tired and you've got to fill

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Speaker 3: out forms.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, a man is halfway through doing his very public

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Speaker 2: job when he has to put his hand up and say,

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I can't keep going.

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Speaker 1: I need a minute.

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Speaker 2: Nate Burned, the very popular weather reporter on ABC Breakfast,

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Speaker 2: did exactly this in front of thousands of viewers on

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Speaker 2: Tuesday morning and instantly became a viral video. Here's the

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Speaker 2: audio of what happened.

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Speaker 7: We've got big falls right through that part of the country,

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Speaker 7: and we're going to see lots more rain in the

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Speaker 7: days ahead. Actually going to need to stop for a second.

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Speaker 7: Some of you may know that I occasionally get affected

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Speaker 7: by some panic attacks, and actually that's happening right now. Lisa,

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Speaker 7: maybe I could hand back to you.

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Speaker 2: You certainly can date Nate's co workers, including Lisa Miller,

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Speaker 2: who you heard there on that Grab immediately jumped in

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Speaker 2: finished the weather for Nate and explained what was happening,

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Speaker 2: reassuring views that he was fine.

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Speaker 3: That was so hard to listen to him, Oh so

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Speaker 3: hard to like. You can hear it start. You can

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Speaker 3: hear him swallow, try to get it together, and you

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Speaker 3: can hear his voice wobble, and you can hear him

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Speaker 3: make that snap decision of I actually can't keep going

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Speaker 3: because he tries to keep going and then he can't,

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Speaker 3: and then to have the fortitude to be able to

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Speaker 3: do a throw, I can't believe he was a co

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Speaker 3: host to articulate that, I'm so impressed, very very impressive.

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Speaker 2: It was immediately hailed as the textbook way to handle

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Speaker 2: a coworker's mental health incident with sensitivity and grace by

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Speaker 2: his colleagues, and then Nate himself came back on the

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Speaker 2: show a little bit later to talk about it, as

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Speaker 2: he'd done in an article for the ABC two years

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Speaker 2: ago after it happened before, and he reassured the audience

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Speaker 2: that he was fine.

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Speaker 1: Very pleased to say that our wonderful colleague mate is.

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Speaker 4: Back with this.

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Speaker 7: Sorry if I gave anybody a bit of a scare there.

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Speaker 1: Yes, not really, because you've been very honest before about

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Speaker 1: getting panic attacks on air, and it's so great for

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Speaker 1: people to know that it can happen to When.

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Speaker 7: He gave me a scared because I thought I'd have

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Speaker 7: to finish doing the weather report and I'm no good

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Speaker 7: of that.

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Speaker 1: Well, he was talking about Queensland, so.

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Speaker 7: I was going to step up well, and today would

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Speaker 7: be the day to do it. There's so much going

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Speaker 7: on for Queensland. But thank you all so much for

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Speaker 7: helping out.

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Speaker 2: Here's a little bit of what he wrote in that

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Speaker 2: story where he first explained his panic attacks. He said,

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Speaker 2: I had my first ever panic attack on live TV.

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Speaker 2: I was standing in one of my favorite places, doing

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Speaker 2: the thing I love most. He went on to say,

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Speaker 2: anxiety had never been an issue in my life before,

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Speaker 2: even though high stress situations weren't a stranger. But this

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Speaker 2: time I wasn't a naval officer moments away from running

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Speaker 2: a warship aground, or standing in front of a stadium

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Speaker 2: filled with twelve thousand people hosting my first internationally televised event.

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Speaker 2: I thought that my career was over. Something was taking

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Speaker 2: control of me without my permission or understanding, and it

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Speaker 2: was preventing me from doing what made me me. I

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Speaker 2: was stood down for the rest of the day. News

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Speaker 2: Breakfast co host Madeline Morris very tactfully told the audience

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Speaker 2: that the weather man is under the weather and I

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Speaker 2: gathered by things and went straight to the doctor. Now

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Speaker 2: Nate's not alone. This week, both Carrie Bickmore, radio host,

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Speaker 2: TV presenter, cancer charity advocate all round Legend said that

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Speaker 2: she had also suffered while doing her job. She said

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Speaker 2: this on radio this week, and she played a little

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Speaker 2: bit of audio of herself reading the news while suffering anxiety.

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Speaker 2: Before then she jumps in and talks about it.

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Speaker 6: And the fate of the English Siamese twins have been decided.

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Speaker 6: A London courts ruled they can undergo surgery to separate them.

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Speaker 6: Doctors are expected to wait a month. Though we have

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Speaker 6: speed cameras on Army and Abs Sorrento, Southwest Highwi, Armadale Grade,

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Speaker 6: Eastern Highway, Greenmound, Tonkin Highway, Morley, Enna, sav Rockingham and

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Speaker 6: Orong Road Belmont.

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Speaker 5: We don't need to know how the traffic's going back

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Speaker 5: twenty years ago, but I still look back and think

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Speaker 5: how did I do that? Because I was so consumed

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Speaker 5: by this anxiety, and I didn't tell my family and

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Speaker 5: friends about it because I think it felt quite significant

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Speaker 5: in the scheme of some of the stuff that was

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Speaker 5: happening in my life at the time. But I remember

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Speaker 5: I would have them all afternoon when I was reading

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Speaker 5: the news on Nova, and then all morning when I

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Speaker 5: joined USY and Kate all those years ago. And I

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Speaker 5: only told Kate Langbrook about it the other day and

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Speaker 5: she was like, what are you talking about. I think

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Speaker 5: I managed to get through that whole time without I

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Speaker 5: just imagine people were having meetings in rooms going what

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Speaker 5: Wronger though?

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Speaker 3: Why does she sound like that?

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Speaker 1: And why does she do that?

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Speaker 5: She had no idea. I think it's interesting her first comment,

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Speaker 5: which was why didn't you tell me? And I think

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Speaker 5: that's the thing. I just wish I'd spoken to people

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Speaker 5: about it back then, because she wouldn't have cared. She

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Speaker 5: would have done nothing but helped me out.

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Speaker 2: Carrie said that she had was on the verge of

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Speaker 2: a panic attack pretty much every single time she went

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Speaker 2: on air in any capacity on TV and radio for

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Speaker 2: a good decade.

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Speaker 4: Wow.

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Speaker 2: Jackie I also backed up this morning, saying she'd had

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Speaker 2: panic attacks for eighteen months after a negative drug experience.

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Speaker 2: I want to understand something about this, right because this

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Speaker 2: is obviously struck such a chord when Nate in particular

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Speaker 2: has been so open about what he was going through,

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Speaker 2: and there's something about seeing it with your own eyes.

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Speaker 2: Is it possible do you think to avoid putting yourself

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Speaker 2: in circumstances that would make you this anxious if you

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Speaker 2: suffer from anxiety? Because put in the most base terms,

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Speaker 2: and I want to be really careful not to sound

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Speaker 2: dismissive or insensitive about it, but in a world where

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Speaker 2: we're constantly urged to push yourself out of your comfort

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Speaker 2: zone and do something every day that scares you and

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Speaker 2: all those things, is there a way in which, like,

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Speaker 2: if something about your job makes you hyper anxious, it

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Speaker 2: might not be the right.

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Speaker 1: Job for you. So what you're articulating, Holly, and I

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Speaker 1: know that, or sort of being Devil's advocate is actually

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Speaker 1: something that comes up in a lot of comment sections,

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Speaker 1: So particularly the first time that Nate Burne came out

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Speaker 1: with his story, a lot of the comments were like,

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Speaker 1: why are your weather man? Why are you on live television?

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Speaker 1: And I actually put it to some out louders we

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Speaker 1: have a lot of out louders who are practicing psychologists,

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Speaker 1: And I said, and I had a hunch because I've

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Speaker 1: seen psychologists and studied it at UNI for a bit,

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Speaker 1: but I just wanted their expertise. You know, you hear

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Speaker 1: Kate Campbell talk about swimming and the stress.

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Speaker 2: That that causes her to vomiting before they go on

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Speaker 2: stage from nerves.

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Speaker 1: And the psychologists said a few interesting things. They said,

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Speaker 1: often the panic attack isn't as related to the situation

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Speaker 1: you're in as you might think. So it isn't the

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Speaker 1: live television, It isn't reading the weather that's causing the

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Speaker 1: panic attack necessarily. And people who experience panic attacks will

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Speaker 1: testify to this that they can happen when I mean,

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Speaker 1: I've had them when I've sat down to rah or

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Speaker 1: I've been totally by myself. And people who don't work

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Speaker 1: in live television also have paying attacks all the time.

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Speaker 1: And the other thing they'd said is that the advice

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Speaker 1: a psychologist wouldn't give you is avoidance. So the thing

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Speaker 1: that makes anxiety worse and panic attacks worse is avoidance.

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Speaker 1: So I went to a psychologist about panic attacks, probably

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Speaker 1: ten years ago, and we did exposure therapy that's part

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Speaker 1: of CBT, and they gradually I'm not sure a psychologist

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Speaker 1: if you were in this level of distress, they'd be like,

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Speaker 1: go and do it again tomorrow. They help you and

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Speaker 1: be a bit gentler. But it exacerbates anxiety to avoid it.

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Speaker 1: And so I would hazard a guess that if Carrie

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Speaker 1: Bickmore wasn't reading the news, if she was doing something else,

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Speaker 1: those panic attacks still might present themselves. I think the

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Speaker 1: reason that these stories go viral is because one thing

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Speaker 1: that people get very self conscious about is how they appear.

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Speaker 1: Because you feel like when you're in the midst of

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Speaker 1: a panic attack, you actually I thought i'd had one.

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Speaker 1: I once called an ambulance because I thought that I

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Speaker 1: was dying. I thought I was having a heart attack.

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Speaker 1: You think everyone can see your head exploding, and it

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Speaker 1: is mortifying and shameful, and it's this dread. This You're

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Speaker 1: so certain that you're dying in that moment that to

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Speaker 1: actually see or hear someone else go through a panic

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Speaker 1: attack sort of demystifies it and you go, oh, the

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Speaker 1: world kept spinning, the sun rose next day. It wasn't

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Speaker 1: the end of the world.

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Speaker 3: And from the outside, if he hadn't have walked off,

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Speaker 3: you wouldn't have known if he hadn't have said it. No,

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Speaker 3: it's interesting when I've had panic attacks. I don't feel

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Speaker 3: like I'm dying, but I feel such a level of

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Speaker 3: terror that I can't even speak it. I can't even

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Speaker 3: tell anyone. I would never have been able to say

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Speaker 3: what Nate did, or in Carrie's case, tell a friend

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Speaker 3: or a coworker, because it's really had to explain. But

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Speaker 3: you're right, Jesse, in terms of I used to have

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Speaker 3: panic attacks whenever I flew, and I could have decided

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Speaker 3: to not fly, and I did minimize the amount of

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Speaker 3: travel that I did for a really long time. And

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Speaker 3: then I realized my life was getting smaller because anxiety

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Speaker 3: will just attach itself to something else, and it did.

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Speaker 3: Once I got over my fear of flying, my anxiety

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Speaker 3: attached itself to a different fear. I think that what's

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Speaker 3: so amazing about Nate doing this, And also a shout

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Speaker 3: out to Lisa Miller for the way she was able

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Speaker 3: to handle that, and I remember, this is not the

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Speaker 3: first time that's happened to her. This also happened when

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Speaker 3: she was hosting and life TV is so hard. She

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Speaker 3: had a guest who was menopausal. She had a hot

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Speaker 3: flush and she suddenly couldn't speak. And Lisa was also

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Speaker 3: in the position there to just carry that through and

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Speaker 3: give that person complete dignity and make it feel really normal.

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Speaker 3: And that is an incredible art and an incredible skill.

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Speaker 3: But I think Carrie back there wouldn't have seen anyone.

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Speaker 3: No one spoke about anxiety. When I was having my

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Speaker 3: panic attacks. It was in the earlier days of Mum

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Speaker 3: and mea and I didn't want to tell anyone or

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Speaker 3: write about it because I thought it would mean people

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Speaker 3: would think I was crazy and people wouldn't take me seriously.

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Speaker 3: The generosity of being public about something.

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Speaker 1: Like that is huge. The other thing I thought was

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Speaker 1: a note about what they both said the more you listened,

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Speaker 1: and I urge people to read Nate Burne's article. It's

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Speaker 1: really insightful. But the thing that they're almost scared them

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Speaker 1: continued to scare them more than the stimulus was the

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Speaker 1: possibility of having a panic attack again. So that's actually

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Speaker 1: what the and then you're panicking about that, Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: then when you get any of the symptoms like Nate

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Speaker 1: the first time he had it, Interestingly, he was running

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Speaker 1: late and you kind of had to run. And if

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Speaker 1: you've had panic attacks and you feel out of breath,

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Speaker 1: that can freak you out because you go, oh, no,

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Speaker 1: i'm not, I'm not I'm not telling me I'm not

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Speaker 1: having panic, and then you start to spiral, and then

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Speaker 1: the physiological sense of panic start to trigger the brain,

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Speaker 1: and then that's when it happens.

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Speaker 3: It's also not possible to avoid everything that might trigger you.

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Speaker 3: So for example, I have panic attacks when I have

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Speaker 3: ultrasounds or any sort of scan because of a bad

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Speaker 3: experience and a bad result that I got many many

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Speaker 3: years ago. I didn't even realize that's why I would

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Speaker 3: have them, Like it took my mum to sort of say, Darling,

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Speaker 3: I think it's because that time you had the ultrasound

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Speaker 3: and you lost the baby, Like I think that's what

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Speaker 3: and I'm like, oh my god, yeah, like I had

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Speaker 3: to almost sedate myself. But you can't not have a mammogram.

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Speaker 3: You can't not have an ultrasound if you need one.

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Speaker 3: So that's why I also, avoidance just isn't possible and

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Speaker 3: it isn't helpful.

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Speaker 2: I find all that, of course, absolutely enlightening and correct.

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Speaker 2: The only thing I would say is that for some

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Speaker 2: people work stress does really add to their anxiety, and

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Speaker 2: there is no shame in saying I can't do this.

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Speaker 2: And I'm not suggesting for even a split second that

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Speaker 2: that's what Nate or Carry or anyone should not even

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Speaker 2: for a second. But I mean, because panic attacks are

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Speaker 2: kind of a bit different, right, but for lots of

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Speaker 2: people who find themselves teetering on the edge of I mean,

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Speaker 2: breakdown's a tough word. But you know, when I did

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Speaker 2: that interview with Julie Goodwin and she was talking about

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Speaker 2: how she felt she couldn't get off this professional flywheel

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Speaker 2: that she was on of all this work that she

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Speaker 2: had to do to keep everything going all the time,

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Speaker 2: but she was inside, just completely in the grips of

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Speaker 2: a terrible mental health crisis. And she said to her psychiatrist,

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Speaker 2: but I can't stop. And she was like why, and

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Speaker 2: she's like, because of the money, because of the mortgage,

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Speaker 2: because of this is what I do. And her psychiatrist

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Speaker 2: was like, you know, funerals cost a lot of money, too,

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Speaker 2: you know, like which it seems like a very simplistic,

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Speaker 2: extreme thing to say, But my point is just while

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Speaker 2: I don't mean in any way to attach that to

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Speaker 2: this conversation. There is no shame or stigma in not

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Speaker 2: being able to carry on if you are struggling.

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Speaker 3: No, that's really true.

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Speaker 1: Is Australia about to ban gambling ads? And if so,

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Speaker 1: could that mark the end of freeda air television? Are

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Speaker 1: gambling ads keeping Australian support afloat? And does complete prohibition work? Anyway?

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Speaker 1: Let's start at the beginning. An alliance of leading Australians

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Speaker 1: has demanded the government totally ban gambling ads. Gambling losses

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Speaker 1: in Australia. I didn't know this are among the highest

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Speaker 1: per person in the world. They cost us an estimated

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Speaker 1: twenty five billion dollars a year. Among the signatories of

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Speaker 1: this alliance that was put to the government was Formerr

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Speaker 1: PM John Howard, who said many Australians are alarmed about

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Speaker 1: the proliferation of gambling advertising on our screens, which I

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Speaker 1: think we can all agree as a fair statement. Labour

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Speaker 1: MP Mike Freelander said a total advertising ban was a

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Speaker 1: necessary health policy akin to controls on tobacco advertising, adding

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Speaker 1: that gambling is a way of transferring billions of dollars

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Speaker 1: from poor people to wealthy people. Yes, here's what Independent

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Speaker 1: Senator David Pocock said this week.

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Speaker 4: It's a betrayal of Australians. Eighty percent of Australians want this,

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Speaker 4: and we have a government that doesn't have the guts

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Speaker 4: to actually stand up to the gambling industry, doesn't have

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Speaker 4: the imagination to actually work with TV. Where is the

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Speaker 4: courage from from this labor government. Young men who have

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Speaker 4: committed suicide because of the whole that they have got

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Speaker 4: themselves into with gambling addictions, and.

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Speaker 1: Jackie Lamby said this just for once to die, just

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Speaker 1: for once. Put the future of our kids first.

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Speaker 3: Put the future of our kids first. I am begging you,

404
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Speaker 3: yay Jackie that I just endorse everything that she says

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Speaker 3: and the emotion in her voice abs of friggin lootly.

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Speaker 1: I love what she can get through in nine seconds.

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Speaker 1: She's like, I only need nine seconds.

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Speaker 3: Gets my point.

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Speaker 1: That, But is it really that simple? Because on Q

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Speaker 1: and A on Monday night, Bill Shorten said that free

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Speaker 1: to air television needs the money from gambling ads to

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Speaker 1: stay afloat.

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Speaker 3: We should go fundme for free to air television because

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Speaker 3: you know they're not making enough money, but you know

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Speaker 3: what they are poor Australians. We are having billions of dollars.

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Speaker 1: We will build, we will get gambling companies, but they

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Speaker 1: hire a lot of Australians. A lot of people have

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Speaker 1: jobs in these industries. And if free to air was

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Speaker 1: to go down the toilet, a lot of people lose

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Speaker 1: their jobs.

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Speaker 2: And also when we say free to way, they also

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Speaker 2: been streaming, Like I watch a lot of streaming TV

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Speaker 2: and there is a gambling ad every two seconds.

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Speaker 3: To be clear, if your business is held up by

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Speaker 3: gambling advertising, you need to rel look at your business model,

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Speaker 3: take some hard decisions. We don't accept gambling advertising at Mammamea.

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Speaker 3: Would we be more profitable.

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Speaker 1: If we did?

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Speaker 3: Hell yes yes, But could we hire more people?

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Speaker 1: Hell yes yes, But Mama Maya is targeted at women.

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Speaker 1: A lot of gambling advertising, if not all of it,

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Speaker 1: is really appealing to men, so young men and young men. Right.

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Speaker 1: So if I'm making my money off young men and

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Speaker 1: a gambling company is going, I'm going to give you

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Speaker 1: all of this money, which is a year's worth of revenue,

436
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Speaker 1: it's a hard thing to say no to.

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Speaker 3: You know what else you make a lot of money from,

438
00:21:28,087 --> 00:21:30,407
Speaker 3: or you used to tobacco advertising.

439
00:21:30,647 --> 00:21:33,207
Speaker 2: This is the most common comparison, and it's a very

440
00:21:33,247 --> 00:21:38,167
Speaker 2: good one because gambling is addictive. Gambling is, as you said, Jesse,

441
00:21:38,367 --> 00:21:40,127
Speaker 2: costing a lot of people, and a lot of young

442
00:21:40,167 --> 00:21:41,967
Speaker 2: men who can't afford it, and not only young men,

443
00:21:42,047 --> 00:21:44,167
Speaker 2: but a lot of young men an enormous amount of money.

444
00:21:44,567 --> 00:21:47,807
Speaker 2: They are advertising in a way that's very attractive to

445
00:21:47,967 --> 00:21:51,767
Speaker 2: attract a new recruit to this addiction. You can do

446
00:21:51,847 --> 00:21:53,527
Speaker 2: it on your phone, you can do it in private.

447
00:21:53,607 --> 00:21:56,327
Speaker 2: It's a very good comparison with your mates to part

448
00:21:56,367 --> 00:22:00,647
Speaker 2: of makeship. It's very good comparison to tobacco advertising. One

449
00:22:00,687 --> 00:22:03,087
Speaker 2: of the issues is, though, and I guess this is

450
00:22:03,127 --> 00:22:06,287
Speaker 2: one of the arguments they'd say, is that Australians spend

451
00:22:07,567 --> 00:22:12,047
Speaker 2: so much money on gambling, Like they spend billions and

452
00:22:12,207 --> 00:22:13,727
Speaker 2: billions and billions of dollars.

453
00:22:13,967 --> 00:22:18,487
Speaker 1: So under Labour's proposal, gambling ads would be banned online

454
00:22:18,687 --> 00:22:23,167
Speaker 1: in kids programming. That seems like sense one to find kid.

455
00:22:23,367 --> 00:22:25,927
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, because the problem with kids advertising is I

456
00:22:26,047 --> 00:22:28,647
Speaker 2: see lots of gambling ads on family TV. Okay, it

457
00:22:28,727 --> 00:22:32,447
Speaker 2: wouldn't fall into like kids advertising, but let's say Lego

458
00:22:32,847 --> 00:22:36,807
Speaker 2: survivor Lego Masters Summit like stuff that I watch with

459
00:22:36,927 --> 00:22:39,407
Speaker 2: the kids and sport which we all watch with our kids.

460
00:22:39,487 --> 00:22:42,327
Speaker 1: So it would be during live sports broadcasting. Let's say

461
00:22:42,327 --> 00:22:44,167
Speaker 1: you're sitting down, you're watching the NRL or the AFL

462
00:22:44,567 --> 00:22:47,327
Speaker 1: live sports broadcasting in an hour either side. They're saying

463
00:22:47,407 --> 00:22:51,647
Speaker 1: no gambling ads, but it can still appear during TV programming,

464
00:22:52,327 --> 00:22:53,727
Speaker 1: but a lot of people are going hang on that.

465
00:22:54,247 --> 00:22:56,847
Speaker 1: It means that at another time, let's say at ten PM,

466
00:22:57,247 --> 00:22:59,327
Speaker 1: that you can put your gambling ads there. It'll keep

467
00:22:59,327 --> 00:23:00,967
Speaker 1: it afloat. You can still show the sport, but we're

468
00:23:01,007 --> 00:23:03,967
Speaker 1: not showing them together because kids are watching the sport. There's,

469
00:23:04,007 --> 00:23:06,407
Speaker 1: of course the other issue, which is maybe there's not

470
00:23:06,527 --> 00:23:08,807
Speaker 1: gambling ads, but I turn on and I want to

471
00:23:08,847 --> 00:23:11,447
Speaker 1: watch them. At Manly Sea Eagles, they've got points Bet

472
00:23:11,647 --> 00:23:15,207
Speaker 1: written on their jersey sponsorship and you've also got points

473
00:23:15,247 --> 00:23:18,087
Speaker 1: Bet Stadium, which is where the Cronulla Sharks play.

474
00:23:18,287 --> 00:23:20,727
Speaker 3: So what does that tell you if they're advertising on

475
00:23:20,847 --> 00:23:23,567
Speaker 3: these programs and they're advertising on the players.

476
00:23:24,847 --> 00:23:26,287
Speaker 1: It tells you that it works.

477
00:23:26,767 --> 00:23:30,327
Speaker 3: It tells you that by doing that, more people spend

478
00:23:30,407 --> 00:23:34,007
Speaker 3: more money with these companies and more Australians are put

479
00:23:34,127 --> 00:23:37,887
Speaker 3: into financial hardship, often with tragic consequences.

480
00:23:38,167 --> 00:23:40,847
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, I'm totally with you, and I think we

481
00:23:40,967 --> 00:23:41,247
Speaker 1: all are.

482
00:23:41,807 --> 00:23:45,647
Speaker 3: And I think that with you're very angry, but Jesse,

483
00:23:45,727 --> 00:23:46,887
Speaker 3: You're like, Okay.

484
00:23:46,967 --> 00:23:47,247
Speaker 4: I am.

485
00:23:47,527 --> 00:23:50,847
Speaker 3: I'm very angry because I am very angry because I'm

486
00:23:50,847 --> 00:23:53,447
Speaker 3: also a media owners. So this idea of and we

487
00:23:53,567 --> 00:23:55,367
Speaker 3: have to make our decisions all the time about the

488
00:23:55,407 --> 00:23:58,807
Speaker 3: advertising that we accept or don't accept, and to just

489
00:23:58,927 --> 00:24:01,887
Speaker 3: say well, our business depends on it, I don't think

490
00:24:01,967 --> 00:24:02,647
Speaker 3: that's good enough.

491
00:24:02,927 --> 00:24:05,567
Speaker 1: These are the exact arguments made about tobacco. And you

492
00:24:05,647 --> 00:24:08,007
Speaker 1: know what, if Freda Air is dying, then maybe we

493
00:24:08,127 --> 00:24:09,927
Speaker 1: just bring back the tobacco exactly.

494
00:24:10,007 --> 00:24:12,447
Speaker 3: And these media companies have all these lobbyists in Canberra

495
00:24:12,567 --> 00:24:14,527
Speaker 3: talking to Bill Short and talking to all these people saying,

496
00:24:14,807 --> 00:24:16,487
Speaker 3: oh no, it'll mean so many jobs.

497
00:24:16,567 --> 00:24:17,287
Speaker 1: Well, what does it.

498
00:24:17,407 --> 00:24:19,647
Speaker 3: Mean if it doesn't happen? What doesn't mean if we

499
00:24:19,687 --> 00:24:20,687
Speaker 3: don't ban these ads?

500
00:24:20,727 --> 00:24:23,727
Speaker 2: Although I agree with you, and I do genuinely agree

501
00:24:23,767 --> 00:24:26,327
Speaker 2: with you, it infuriates me how like my kids can

502
00:24:26,447 --> 00:24:29,647
Speaker 2: literally parrot all the words to all the gambling ads

503
00:24:30,207 --> 00:24:32,167
Speaker 2: and that is scary, So I can mind it, and

504
00:24:32,247 --> 00:24:34,927
Speaker 2: I don't even know where they see them clearly on subliminal,

505
00:24:35,207 --> 00:24:37,687
Speaker 2: you know it's going in. I guess if I was

506
00:24:37,727 --> 00:24:40,407
Speaker 2: putting a Devil's Advocate argument on it, I'd say, with

507
00:24:40,607 --> 00:24:43,287
Speaker 2: that number of Ozzie spending that much money on it

508
00:24:43,367 --> 00:24:45,327
Speaker 2: all the time, they clearly love it. There's a portion

509
00:24:45,487 --> 00:24:47,447
Speaker 2: of the population who have problem and addiction.

510
00:24:47,647 --> 00:24:48,567
Speaker 3: Do you know what people love?

511
00:24:48,607 --> 00:24:52,167
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, okay, let me finish my sentence. Cigarettes and

512
00:24:52,367 --> 00:24:54,087
Speaker 2: alcohol and social media.

513
00:24:54,367 --> 00:24:54,487
Speaker 4: Right.

514
00:24:54,767 --> 00:24:56,967
Speaker 2: There are lots of things that prop up our economies

515
00:24:57,007 --> 00:25:00,007
Speaker 2: that are bad for people. So it's like, you know,

516
00:25:00,087 --> 00:25:02,087
Speaker 2: the debate that's going on at the moment all over

517
00:25:02,167 --> 00:25:04,607
Speaker 2: the world about what kind of restrictions we should be

518
00:25:04,647 --> 00:25:06,767
Speaker 2: putting on social media and phone news for young people

519
00:25:06,807 --> 00:25:09,407
Speaker 2: because that's also very damaging for their mental health. So

520
00:25:09,527 --> 00:25:12,807
Speaker 2: it's like there are all kinds of pockets of our

521
00:25:13,367 --> 00:25:15,767
Speaker 2: global economy that are held up by things that are

522
00:25:15,807 --> 00:25:18,487
Speaker 2: basically damaging, and this is one of them. And I

523
00:25:18,647 --> 00:25:22,647
Speaker 2: agree wholeheartedly that it needs to be very strictly regulated.

524
00:25:23,007 --> 00:25:25,927
Speaker 2: But I guess one of the arguments is I'm an adult,

525
00:25:26,287 --> 00:25:28,807
Speaker 2: choose what I do with my money. Lardie Blardi blood.

526
00:25:28,807 --> 00:25:31,807
Speaker 2: They do still let alcohol advertise around sport, not cigarettes,

527
00:25:31,847 --> 00:25:35,287
Speaker 2: but alcohol, and that's interesting too, because there's an enormous

528
00:25:35,327 --> 00:25:38,047
Speaker 2: portion of population who have massive problems with alcohol addiction.

529
00:25:38,687 --> 00:25:43,247
Speaker 2: The counter argument, and again it's not mine, is are

530
00:25:43,287 --> 00:25:46,607
Speaker 2: we just going to impede everybody's choices and treat everybody

531
00:25:46,727 --> 00:25:49,447
Speaker 2: like a child rather than let them make their own calls?

532
00:25:49,967 --> 00:25:53,127
Speaker 2: I guess that would probably be a generous reach.

533
00:25:53,247 --> 00:25:55,927
Speaker 1: Yeah, what do you think about alcohol advertising during sport,

534
00:25:56,047 --> 00:25:59,647
Speaker 1: especially given the say spike, you know, great final state

535
00:25:59,687 --> 00:26:02,527
Speaker 1: of origin spike in domestic violence because men come home

536
00:26:03,167 --> 00:26:05,447
Speaker 1: having drunk too much alcohol. Like, what do you think

537
00:26:05,487 --> 00:26:05,767
Speaker 1: about that?

538
00:26:06,927 --> 00:26:09,247
Speaker 3: I think that there are responsible ways to drink.

539
00:26:09,607 --> 00:26:12,007
Speaker 2: The sports thing is fascinating because in England they have

540
00:26:12,167 --> 00:26:16,967
Speaker 2: banned the shirts and the gambling companies from being directly

541
00:26:17,007 --> 00:26:19,727
Speaker 2: involved in the sport, and the world hasn't ended, and

542
00:26:19,807 --> 00:26:21,927
Speaker 2: the Premier League still makes a lot of money and

543
00:26:22,007 --> 00:26:25,007
Speaker 2: they still sell the broadcasting rights for bajillions of dollars.

544
00:26:25,087 --> 00:26:26,767
Speaker 2: So you know, it is a bit, as you say me,

545
00:26:26,967 --> 00:26:29,327
Speaker 2: it's a bit of a furfey that like, everything will

546
00:26:29,487 --> 00:26:32,127
Speaker 2: end and it is insidious that if you watch a

547
00:26:32,167 --> 00:26:35,047
Speaker 2: sporting game someone will kick a goal. We cut straight

548
00:26:35,087 --> 00:26:37,327
Speaker 2: to a gambling ad, then we cut to another bit

549
00:26:37,407 --> 00:26:39,407
Speaker 2: that looks like commentary, but actually it's brought to you

550
00:26:39,527 --> 00:26:42,607
Speaker 2: by gambling ad branded content. It is insidious.

551
00:26:43,047 --> 00:26:45,527
Speaker 1: I've heard lobbyists say you can give them a few

552
00:26:45,567 --> 00:26:48,527
Speaker 1: years to kind of make some plans about changing the

553
00:26:48,607 --> 00:26:51,047
Speaker 1: advertising model or whatever. It's not going to be like

554
00:26:51,127 --> 00:26:53,207
Speaker 1: a click of the fingers, and that seems fair enough.

555
00:26:53,927 --> 00:26:56,167
Speaker 1: But on this because I've been thinking a lot about

556
00:26:56,487 --> 00:27:00,367
Speaker 1: ethics and sport and who funds it, especially in light

557
00:27:00,527 --> 00:27:04,367
Speaker 1: of the Olympics, which we've said, you know, brought everyone together.

558
00:27:04,967 --> 00:27:08,047
Speaker 1: And you might have noticed during the swimming when Australia

559
00:27:08,367 --> 00:27:12,367
Speaker 1: won so many gold medals, especially Australian female athletes, they

560
00:27:12,527 --> 00:27:16,087
Speaker 1: would go to the stands and there was a smiling

561
00:27:16,367 --> 00:27:19,247
Speaker 1: Gena reyn Hart. Gena Ryan Hart is of course the

562
00:27:19,327 --> 00:27:24,007
Speaker 1: executive chairwoman of Hancock Prospecting. She's made her money in mining,

563
00:27:24,087 --> 00:27:28,007
Speaker 1: which is ethically fraught. But the commentators couldn't say a

564
00:27:28,047 --> 00:27:32,407
Speaker 1: thing about Jana Reineheart at the swimming because she has

565
00:27:33,007 --> 00:27:38,047
Speaker 1: funded Australian swimming for years. Basically, even like Kate Campbell

566
00:27:38,127 --> 00:27:42,487
Speaker 1: has come out and said she saved Australian swimming.

567
00:27:42,287 --> 00:27:43,207
Speaker 4: Hi versus Rehnhart.

568
00:27:43,247 --> 00:27:45,567
Speaker 5: It's Kate Campbell here, thank you so much for your

569
00:27:45,607 --> 00:27:49,327
Speaker 5: support of this wonderful team. You have been a number

570
00:27:49,367 --> 00:27:52,887
Speaker 5: one cheerleader every stroke of the way.

571
00:27:53,127 --> 00:27:56,247
Speaker 1: They've all said that they wouldn't be as successful without

572
00:27:56,367 --> 00:28:01,247
Speaker 1: her financial and emotional support. She donates directly to the swimmers,

573
00:28:01,407 --> 00:28:03,687
Speaker 1: basically meaning that they don't have to work other jobs.

574
00:28:03,767 --> 00:28:06,927
Speaker 1: They can train, like really really hard throughout the years

575
00:28:07,007 --> 00:28:11,487
Speaker 1: and get these record gold medals. How do we feel

576
00:28:11,927 --> 00:28:14,887
Speaker 1: about that? Because the swimmers, even they know how it works,

577
00:28:15,087 --> 00:28:17,487
Speaker 1: they know it's in exchange. So even after they won

578
00:28:17,527 --> 00:28:19,407
Speaker 1: all their gold medals, there was a cruise. Gina took

579
00:28:19,447 --> 00:28:21,247
Speaker 1: them on a cruise and they al said, thank you Gina.

580
00:28:21,487 --> 00:28:25,287
Speaker 2: It's really interesting this because you can see this like

581
00:28:25,567 --> 00:28:28,087
Speaker 2: conflict in some of the athletes, in particular the younger

582
00:28:28,127 --> 00:28:32,887
Speaker 2: ones in this like genuflecting to Gina, to your benefactor

583
00:28:33,327 --> 00:28:35,607
Speaker 2: or patron, yes to your patron, yes, which is a

584
00:28:35,687 --> 00:28:38,207
Speaker 2: very it's as old as time right, like wealthy people

585
00:28:38,847 --> 00:28:43,007
Speaker 2: subsidizing arts, subsidizing sports, subsidizing events, and then your job

586
00:28:43,127 --> 00:28:45,527
Speaker 2: is to just not say anything mean about them. It

587
00:28:45,767 --> 00:28:50,127
Speaker 2: just gets Gina because one of the interesting things about

588
00:28:50,207 --> 00:28:52,807
Speaker 2: why does Gina do this. She's got a lot of

589
00:28:52,847 --> 00:28:54,727
Speaker 2: money and you know, I'm sure it's fun to decide

590
00:28:54,767 --> 00:28:57,407
Speaker 2: what you want to do with it. Is there has

591
00:28:57,487 --> 00:28:59,967
Speaker 2: to be a level here where it's in exchange for something, yeah,

592
00:29:00,007 --> 00:29:03,527
Speaker 2: and it seems to be in exchange for influence, cultural influence,

593
00:29:04,247 --> 00:29:07,607
Speaker 2: because we know how Australia feels about the swimming, particularly

594
00:29:07,687 --> 00:29:09,847
Speaker 2: every four years. And in fact there will be a

595
00:29:09,967 --> 00:29:13,447
Speaker 2: very strong argument being mounted right now that Australia's best

596
00:29:13,527 --> 00:29:17,767
Speaker 2: ever Olympic results are a direct result of Gina. There

597
00:29:17,847 --> 00:29:20,247
Speaker 2: has been a report I read this investigation in the

598
00:29:20,287 --> 00:29:22,407
Speaker 2: Herald that was sort of trying to uncover what some

599
00:29:22,527 --> 00:29:26,007
Speaker 2: of this influence might look like. And she famously had

600
00:29:26,047 --> 00:29:28,647
Speaker 2: a big falling out with Swimming Australia a few years

601
00:29:28,687 --> 00:29:33,447
Speaker 2: ago and withdrew funding from that organization, but carried on

602
00:29:33,527 --> 00:29:36,047
Speaker 2: a partnership with Swimming Queensland and as you said, Jesse,

603
00:29:36,487 --> 00:29:38,967
Speaker 2: going directly to the swimmers instead. They seem to have

604
00:29:39,047 --> 00:29:40,767
Speaker 2: been patching that up because I think they had to.

605
00:29:41,487 --> 00:29:44,447
Speaker 2: But for example, at that time there were reports that

606
00:29:45,367 --> 00:29:50,047
Speaker 2: Hancock Prospecting were asking for things like could Swimming Australia

607
00:29:50,127 --> 00:29:53,407
Speaker 2: not support Pride months in a public way, could they

608
00:29:53,527 --> 00:29:57,847
Speaker 2: take the acknowledgment of country off their website and off

609
00:29:57,927 --> 00:30:01,047
Speaker 2: their Instagram posts and things like that. Wow, and then

610
00:30:01,287 --> 00:30:02,007
Speaker 2: we talked about this.

611
00:30:02,087 --> 00:30:02,607
Speaker 3: I can't remember.

612
00:30:03,887 --> 00:30:06,247
Speaker 2: I'm not sure that they did because I'm not sure

613
00:30:06,287 --> 00:30:10,807
Speaker 2: if it was that direct. When the Herald asked Hancock

614
00:30:10,847 --> 00:30:13,407
Speaker 2: Prospecting directly, is it true that you asked for those

615
00:30:14,007 --> 00:30:17,447
Speaker 2: The statements that came back were like, Hancock Prospecting doesn't

616
00:30:17,487 --> 00:30:19,887
Speaker 2: believe that politics has any place in sports. So they

617
00:30:19,927 --> 00:30:22,447
Speaker 2: didn't say yes or no. They just said this is

618
00:30:22,527 --> 00:30:23,087
Speaker 2: our thing, right.

619
00:30:23,447 --> 00:30:24,607
Speaker 1: And it's like when there was.

620
00:30:24,607 --> 00:30:30,447
Speaker 2: That farua is how I say fual around the Gina

621
00:30:30,607 --> 00:30:34,007
Speaker 2: ryin Hart portraits in the National Gallery. We went into

622
00:30:34,047 --> 00:30:35,167
Speaker 2: this on the show, so I won't go into it

623
00:30:35,207 --> 00:30:38,447
Speaker 2: in big detail, but you like it. She did like it,

624
00:30:39,567 --> 00:30:42,487
Speaker 2: and an email was sent out to all her swimmers,

625
00:30:42,567 --> 00:30:45,527
Speaker 2: her swimmers or the swimmers that said athletes. It has

626
00:30:45,607 --> 00:30:48,447
Speaker 2: come to our attention that there are some portraits of

627
00:30:48,527 --> 00:30:51,407
Speaker 2: missus Rhyinhart displayed in both the National and South Australian

628
00:30:51,527 --> 00:30:54,927
Speaker 2: Art Galleries that she, rightly so in brackets, finds offensive

629
00:30:54,967 --> 00:30:57,607
Speaker 2: and insulting. I've attached them here so you can see them.

630
00:30:57,967 --> 00:30:59,887
Speaker 2: We will be reaching out to the CEO of the

631
00:30:59,967 --> 00:31:02,207
Speaker 2: galleries to express our concerns with the pieces that they

632
00:31:02,287 --> 00:31:04,527
Speaker 2: do not represent the image or the reputation that is

633
00:31:04,607 --> 00:31:07,407
Speaker 2: deserved as the patron of our sport, to assist in

634
00:31:07,487 --> 00:31:10,087
Speaker 2: the message. It would be great to weight behind it

635
00:31:10,167 --> 00:31:12,647
Speaker 2: as a collective group, giving that you are athletes that

636
00:31:12,767 --> 00:31:17,967
Speaker 2: she loves and supports so generously. They said it wasn't compulsory,

637
00:31:18,407 --> 00:31:21,887
Speaker 2: but it would be appreciated, and swimmers like Kyle Chalmers did.

638
00:31:22,327 --> 00:31:24,527
Speaker 2: They came out publicly and said, I think she deserves

639
00:31:24,567 --> 00:31:27,887
Speaker 2: to be praised and I think these portraits are unfair

640
00:31:27,967 --> 00:31:31,287
Speaker 2: and without her sponsorship we'd have nothing. So then she

641
00:31:31,447 --> 00:31:33,567
Speaker 2: has these big galas at her mansion. When the swimmers

642
00:31:33,607 --> 00:31:35,527
Speaker 2: all come up and get awards from her, she gives

643
00:31:35,567 --> 00:31:38,767
Speaker 2: them MacBooks and treats and they all have to say

644
00:31:38,847 --> 00:31:41,207
Speaker 2: nice things. Like Ariann Tipmas went up and said, you know,

645
00:31:41,247 --> 00:31:44,567
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have anything without you. So it's influence on

646
00:31:44,687 --> 00:31:47,367
Speaker 2: a big part of Australian culture. And is there a

647
00:31:47,447 --> 00:31:48,327
Speaker 2: problem with that or not?

648
00:31:48,567 --> 00:31:51,287
Speaker 3: Mia, Well, yeah, I mean in the same way that

649
00:31:51,487 --> 00:31:58,407
Speaker 3: the gambling companies have influenced in commercial television and if

650
00:31:58,447 --> 00:32:01,887
Speaker 3: you're a big advertiser, depending on the media organization, but

651
00:32:02,007 --> 00:32:06,047
Speaker 3: why do you think the media companies are lobbying politicians

652
00:32:06,727 --> 00:32:09,927
Speaker 3: to block this bill, to block any legislation that could

653
00:32:09,967 --> 00:32:10,767
Speaker 3: turn the tap off.

654
00:32:11,807 --> 00:32:13,847
Speaker 1: So it is really.

655
00:32:13,687 --> 00:32:18,847
Speaker 3: Insidious, and I think that you don't even realize it.

656
00:32:19,047 --> 00:32:20,767
Speaker 3: Like the stuff that you were just saying about we

657
00:32:20,847 --> 00:32:24,847
Speaker 3: don't want swimming Australia to participate in Pride Month, that

658
00:32:25,087 --> 00:32:30,367
Speaker 3: is really one person's view. She's buying cultural influence.

659
00:32:30,447 --> 00:32:33,207
Speaker 1: Quite literally, I've been thinking a lot. I was speaking

660
00:32:33,207 --> 00:32:36,047
Speaker 1: to a friend over the weekend about imagining the last

661
00:32:36,367 --> 00:32:40,687
Speaker 1: three years where the swimmers get pulled into private meetings

662
00:32:40,727 --> 00:32:44,047
Speaker 1: and it's like, repeat up to me. We love Gina,

663
00:32:44,447 --> 00:32:47,287
Speaker 1: we love we can't say anything bad about Gina. And

664
00:32:47,367 --> 00:32:49,847
Speaker 1: someone's like, I just want to do my backstroke. I

665
00:32:49,927 --> 00:32:53,247
Speaker 1: don't like, I don't want to get into all of

666
00:32:53,327 --> 00:32:53,527
Speaker 1: this t.

667
00:32:53,967 --> 00:32:56,247
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, we know what happened when she tried

668
00:32:56,287 --> 00:33:01,247
Speaker 3: to sponsor the Diamonds. The Diamonds and Nepal Australia wanted

669
00:33:01,287 --> 00:33:02,567
Speaker 3: to take the money because they.

670
00:33:02,527 --> 00:33:03,207
Speaker 1: Really needed it.

671
00:33:03,367 --> 00:33:06,727
Speaker 3: The sport was in difficult financial straits and the players

672
00:33:06,767 --> 00:33:10,647
Speaker 3: were like, we're not comfortable with this person whose father

673
00:33:11,247 --> 00:33:15,927
Speaker 3: had said that Aboriginal people should be sterilized where uncomfortable

674
00:33:15,967 --> 00:33:21,407
Speaker 3: with wearing his name Hancock prospecting on our outfits whatever

675
00:33:21,407 --> 00:33:24,487
Speaker 3: they're called sporting uniforms while we play thought and so

676
00:33:24,607 --> 00:33:27,247
Speaker 3: she withdrew the money. Yeah, because why she wouldn't disavow

677
00:33:27,287 --> 00:33:27,807
Speaker 3: those comments.

678
00:33:27,927 --> 00:33:30,447
Speaker 1: I wonder how we'd feel about our athletes, you know,

679
00:33:30,607 --> 00:33:33,607
Speaker 1: turning up to the opening ceremony with Hancock pect like

680
00:33:34,047 --> 00:33:37,727
Speaker 1: emblazoned on on their front or whatever. And I in

681
00:33:37,847 --> 00:33:40,527
Speaker 1: these situations either way, I actually feel for the athletes,

682
00:33:40,647 --> 00:33:43,207
Speaker 1: because the athletes, even the rugby league player with points

683
00:33:43,247 --> 00:33:45,007
Speaker 1: bet on his shirt, Yeah, he just wants to go

684
00:33:45,007 --> 00:33:47,007
Speaker 1: and play the star he loves and he wants to

685
00:33:47,007 --> 00:33:48,287
Speaker 1: get paid for it so that he can do it

686
00:33:48,367 --> 00:33:51,807
Speaker 1: full time. And the kind of complicated, high level stuff.

687
00:33:52,007 --> 00:33:55,007
Speaker 1: I just think it's ethically frat, but it is really

688
00:33:55,087 --> 00:33:56,767
Speaker 1: really complicated. I acknowledge that.

689
00:33:59,087 --> 00:34:02,807
Speaker 2: One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday

690
00:34:02,887 --> 00:34:06,927
Speaker 2: and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link

691
00:34:06,967 --> 00:34:08,607
Speaker 2: in the show notes to get us in your ears

692
00:34:08,967 --> 00:34:11,687
Speaker 2: five days a week, and a huge thank you to

693
00:34:11,927 --> 00:34:13,487
Speaker 2: all our current subscribers.

694
00:34:19,367 --> 00:34:21,167
Speaker 3: You may have heard or seen something about doing a

695
00:34:21,247 --> 00:34:24,207
Speaker 3: dopamine detox it's become a bit of a viral wellness

696
00:34:24,287 --> 00:34:27,207
Speaker 3: trend in the last little while, and so we wanted

697
00:34:27,207 --> 00:34:30,727
Speaker 3: to unpack what it involves and who needs one. First

698
00:34:30,767 --> 00:34:33,767
Speaker 3: of all, what is dopamine. It is the brain's own

699
00:34:33,887 --> 00:34:36,207
Speaker 3: reward system. So if you think of it as the

700
00:34:36,407 --> 00:34:39,567
Speaker 3: brain's way of saying, Hey, that felt good, let's do

701
00:34:39,647 --> 00:34:44,047
Speaker 3: it again. And it's the neurotransmitter that's responsible for feelings

702
00:34:44,087 --> 00:34:48,327
Speaker 3: of pleasure and reward and motivation. Whether it's biting into

703
00:34:48,367 --> 00:34:52,727
Speaker 3: your favorite dessert or achieving a personal goal, Dopamine is

704
00:34:52,807 --> 00:34:55,927
Speaker 3: there cheering you on and keeping you coming back for more.

705
00:34:56,807 --> 00:35:00,007
Speaker 3: So having the activities that give you this dopamine hit

706
00:35:00,207 --> 00:35:03,847
Speaker 3: as part of your lifestyle allows dopamine to be released

707
00:35:03,847 --> 00:35:06,727
Speaker 3: through your brain's reward system, and so as a result,

708
00:35:06,807 --> 00:35:09,127
Speaker 3: the pleasure will lift your mood and it will make

709
00:35:09,127 --> 00:35:13,047
Speaker 3: you feel more motivated and focused and less stressed. And

710
00:35:13,247 --> 00:35:15,687
Speaker 3: dopamine can even act as a bit of a pain reliever.

711
00:35:15,927 --> 00:35:19,287
Speaker 3: So the obvious question is why we choose to detox

712
00:35:19,367 --> 00:35:23,287
Speaker 3: from feelings of pleasure. That sounds very puritan Well, the

713
00:35:23,407 --> 00:35:26,767
Speaker 3: problem with dopamine inducing activities is that we come to

714
00:35:26,887 --> 00:35:30,287
Speaker 3: rely on them too much. Talking about addiction. They can

715
00:35:30,407 --> 00:35:33,087
Speaker 3: leave us craving more and more and more, and it's

716
00:35:33,247 --> 00:35:35,927
Speaker 3: like trying to fill a bucket with a hole in it.

717
00:35:36,167 --> 00:35:41,087
Speaker 3: According to clinical psychologists, they say that excessive engagement in

718
00:35:41,647 --> 00:35:44,767
Speaker 3: sort of activities that give you a dopamine hit, especially

719
00:35:44,847 --> 00:35:49,807
Speaker 3: when they involve instant gratification, can prompt over stimulation of

720
00:35:50,287 --> 00:35:53,647
Speaker 3: your dopamine system, and that can lead to addictive behaviors

721
00:35:53,927 --> 00:35:58,487
Speaker 3: and negative consequences. And they also say that when you

722
00:35:58,607 --> 00:36:03,047
Speaker 3: become overly reliant on dopamine inducing activities, gambling is a

723
00:36:03,127 --> 00:36:06,967
Speaker 3: really good example, it can dull our sensitivity to pleasure.

724
00:36:07,287 --> 00:36:08,887
Speaker 3: So they say that you know, if you look at

725
00:36:08,927 --> 00:36:12,407
Speaker 3: things liken or gambling to use extremes, the high that

726
00:36:12,527 --> 00:36:16,247
Speaker 3: you get can mean that you're constantly chasing a higher

727
00:36:16,287 --> 00:36:20,487
Speaker 3: and higher high, and so called normal pleasures just don't

728
00:36:20,527 --> 00:36:25,487
Speaker 3: give you that hit of dopamine. So dopamine detox means

729
00:36:25,527 --> 00:36:29,127
Speaker 3: that you fast from dopamine producing activities or anything that

730
00:36:29,247 --> 00:36:32,407
Speaker 3: gives you pleasure. That sounds horrendous, and the idea of

731
00:36:32,487 --> 00:36:37,087
Speaker 3: it is that you decrease reward sensitivity. Although it's important

732
00:36:37,127 --> 00:36:39,527
Speaker 3: to say there's no scientific evidence to support the concept

733
00:36:39,647 --> 00:36:41,727
Speaker 3: of a dopamine detox. It's really just kind of an

734
00:36:41,847 --> 00:36:44,647
Speaker 3: Internet thing that people are talking about. So, for example,

735
00:36:44,687 --> 00:36:46,807
Speaker 3: we spoke on the show a little while ago about

736
00:36:46,967 --> 00:36:50,327
Speaker 3: raw dogging on flights. So our phones are probably the

737
00:36:50,367 --> 00:36:53,287
Speaker 3: biggest hit of dopamine that we get. Everyone gets, whether

738
00:36:53,327 --> 00:36:57,287
Speaker 3: you're checking things, scrolling, all the different ways that our

739
00:36:57,367 --> 00:37:00,447
Speaker 3: phone relies on us being addicted by giving us those

740
00:37:00,487 --> 00:37:03,407
Speaker 3: little hits of dopamine that we're constantly looking for, which

741
00:37:03,447 --> 00:37:06,287
Speaker 3: is why we end up doom scrolling, because we're scrolling

742
00:37:06,327 --> 00:37:08,967
Speaker 3: and scrolling looking for the hit and thinking, I'll just

743
00:37:08,967 --> 00:37:10,727
Speaker 3: stay a bit longer in case I get that hit

744
00:37:10,807 --> 00:37:15,207
Speaker 3: because I need more. If you do a dopamine detox

745
00:37:15,607 --> 00:37:18,367
Speaker 3: and you're trying to, for example, limit your screen time,

746
00:37:18,407 --> 00:37:21,047
Speaker 3: which is one way of doing it, the typical timeframe

747
00:37:21,127 --> 00:37:23,487
Speaker 3: is doing it for two to four weeks, says a

748
00:37:23,807 --> 00:37:26,607
Speaker 3: doctor who was quoted in an article about this. He

749
00:37:26,807 --> 00:37:29,247
Speaker 3: says that you might feel irritable and moody during the

750
00:37:29,287 --> 00:37:31,767
Speaker 3: first week or two as you reduce your engagement with

751
00:37:31,887 --> 00:37:35,607
Speaker 3: the feel good activities. Jesse, do you need a dopamine detox?

752
00:37:35,927 --> 00:37:37,807
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have called it this, but I do this

753
00:37:38,047 --> 00:37:40,527
Speaker 1: all the time because I'm very aware of it rather

754
00:37:40,607 --> 00:37:42,607
Speaker 1: than dopamine. The way I think about it is like

755
00:37:43,247 --> 00:37:48,247
Speaker 1: over stimulation or over arousal. In order to feel stimulated.

756
00:37:48,887 --> 00:37:51,647
Speaker 1: If I am on my couch and I go all right,

757
00:37:51,807 --> 00:37:53,727
Speaker 1: in order for me not to feel bored, I have

758
00:37:53,847 --> 00:37:55,887
Speaker 1: to have my phone, my laptop, my TV on and

759
00:37:56,167 --> 00:37:59,767
Speaker 1: music going, and also half reading a book. That's a problem.

760
00:37:59,927 --> 00:38:01,527
Speaker 1: And I don't think that's good for me or my

761
00:38:01,607 --> 00:38:05,367
Speaker 1: brain all the way I live my life. So I

762
00:38:05,567 --> 00:38:09,807
Speaker 1: will consciously go all right, we're taking down the arousal

763
00:38:10,247 --> 00:38:12,447
Speaker 1: so that I can do the things that because then

764
00:38:12,487 --> 00:38:14,327
Speaker 1: of course when I get into bed and open my book,

765
00:38:14,527 --> 00:38:17,807
Speaker 1: of course that's not going to stimulate because where's the dopamine.

766
00:38:18,567 --> 00:38:19,847
Speaker 3: Or sit on the floor to read a book with

767
00:38:19,887 --> 00:38:20,287
Speaker 3: your child.

768
00:38:20,447 --> 00:38:22,887
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's parenting, I think is a good example,

769
00:38:23,007 --> 00:38:25,367
Speaker 1: because parenting a child for a day is a dop

770
00:38:25,407 --> 00:38:28,927
Speaker 1: for meat because even at work, right, you've got the

771
00:38:29,007 --> 00:38:30,767
Speaker 1: slack messages, and you've got your cup of coffee or

772
00:38:30,847 --> 00:38:32,967
Speaker 1: like all the little things that kind of keep you going,

773
00:38:33,087 --> 00:38:34,887
Speaker 1: the almost little treat culture of.

774
00:38:34,927 --> 00:38:37,167
Speaker 2: It for it. Sorry, I'm just trying to understand. For

775
00:38:37,247 --> 00:38:38,687
Speaker 2: it to qualify as to op means you have to

776
00:38:38,927 --> 00:38:40,767
Speaker 2: like it. Or is it just that you're addicted to it?

777
00:38:40,847 --> 00:38:44,127
Speaker 2: Because so say, I'm as guilty as this is everybody

778
00:38:44,327 --> 00:38:46,327
Speaker 2: constantly looking at my phone, look at my phone, looking phone.

779
00:38:46,367 --> 00:38:49,927
Speaker 2: But it also makes me feel really overwhelmed when my

780
00:38:50,087 --> 00:38:52,647
Speaker 2: Slack messages are going bing bing bing, and my text

781
00:38:52,687 --> 00:38:55,047
Speaker 2: messages and I do it all the time, but it's

782
00:38:55,087 --> 00:38:57,887
Speaker 2: not like I go, oh, goody my phone being and

783
00:38:57,927 --> 00:38:58,727
Speaker 2: I generally.

784
00:38:59,167 --> 00:39:02,127
Speaker 1: But you're still getting a dopamine hit because it's it's

785
00:39:02,167 --> 00:39:03,567
Speaker 1: making stimulation.

786
00:39:03,367 --> 00:39:06,847
Speaker 3: And it's holding your attention, and you're right, when you're

787
00:39:06,847 --> 00:39:10,367
Speaker 3: getting really overwhelmed, it means that you've got too much

788
00:39:10,447 --> 00:39:10,567
Speaker 3: of it.

789
00:39:11,087 --> 00:39:13,767
Speaker 1: And I remember I used to tutor kids and you know,

790
00:39:13,927 --> 00:39:16,287
Speaker 1: try to get them to write an essay, and they

791
00:39:16,327 --> 00:39:18,247
Speaker 1: would be sitting in their room and they'd go, yeah,

792
00:39:18,247 --> 00:39:19,687
Speaker 1: I've been trying to write my essay. And they'd have

793
00:39:19,967 --> 00:39:23,127
Speaker 1: music on, they'd have a stress ball, all these different

794
00:39:23,167 --> 00:39:27,167
Speaker 1: points often phone, laptop, eleven tabs open. And I was like, well,

795
00:39:27,167 --> 00:39:28,527
Speaker 1: you're not going to be able to write your essay

796
00:39:28,647 --> 00:39:32,487
Speaker 1: like that because this is all antithetical to focus, because

797
00:39:32,607 --> 00:39:38,247
Speaker 1: you're getting dopamine from so many different points of stimulus

798
00:39:38,647 --> 00:39:40,767
Speaker 1: that it's going to be way too boring for you

799
00:39:40,887 --> 00:39:43,247
Speaker 1: to do anything. And this is where the issue actually comes.

800
00:39:43,767 --> 00:39:48,207
Speaker 1: Is anything that's purposeful or meaningful or goal oriented you

801
00:39:48,327 --> 00:39:51,567
Speaker 1: can't achieve because dopamine's getting in the way. Because there

802
00:39:51,607 --> 00:39:52,967
Speaker 1: are ten things that are going to make you feel

803
00:39:53,007 --> 00:39:54,727
Speaker 1: better than doing the essay right now, But you should

804
00:39:54,767 --> 00:39:56,367
Speaker 1: do the essay right now because it's better for the

805
00:39:56,447 --> 00:39:58,407
Speaker 1: long term. So it's also about hedonism.

806
00:39:58,527 --> 00:40:02,847
Speaker 3: I think it's about the attention economy and how the

807
00:40:02,927 --> 00:40:06,447
Speaker 3: digital world has made all of us addicted to dopamine

808
00:40:06,567 --> 00:40:09,327
Speaker 3: because everything about it is it rewards instant gratification, and

809
00:40:09,407 --> 00:40:11,567
Speaker 3: it's built on instant gratification, and the things that you

810
00:40:11,647 --> 00:40:15,407
Speaker 3: talk about reading a book, doing an assignment, there's no

811
00:40:15,527 --> 00:40:18,887
Speaker 3: instant gratification. They're just a hard slog and there's not

812
00:40:18,927 --> 00:40:21,967
Speaker 3: a lot of dopamine in the short term involved, like

813
00:40:22,087 --> 00:40:25,527
Speaker 3: it's I'll give you some examples of low stimulus or

814
00:40:25,607 --> 00:40:32,607
Speaker 3: low dopamine activities. Examples include meditation, gentle exercise, reading in moderation.

815
00:40:33,287 --> 00:40:35,127
Speaker 3: That's exactly how I don't know how to read. I

816
00:40:35,207 --> 00:40:38,767
Speaker 3: only know how to read like hard and fast, spending

817
00:40:38,807 --> 00:40:42,727
Speaker 3: time in nature, all the things I hate. Engaging in

818
00:40:42,887 --> 00:40:46,087
Speaker 3: these activities during your detox helps maintain a calmer and

819
00:40:46,127 --> 00:40:47,127
Speaker 3: more focused state of mind.

820
00:40:47,167 --> 00:40:50,167
Speaker 1: They say, you know what else? You know what else?

821
00:40:50,527 --> 00:40:54,487
Speaker 1: Most of those tasks don't have attention instant gratification aside

822
00:40:55,127 --> 00:40:57,687
Speaker 1: is you don't have to pay for them. So yeah,

823
00:40:58,007 --> 00:41:01,727
Speaker 1: this is also about consumerism. This is about the attention economy, yes,

824
00:41:02,087 --> 00:41:04,887
Speaker 1: but it's also about what you can buy. Because if

825
00:41:05,327 --> 00:41:08,247
Speaker 1: where all one purchase away from happiness, which is what

826
00:41:08,407 --> 00:41:10,367
Speaker 1: capitalism selves are us that if we just buy that

827
00:41:10,447 --> 00:41:13,967
Speaker 1: one more thing, we're gonna be happy. Then we're constantly

828
00:41:14,207 --> 00:41:18,727
Speaker 1: on this flywheel of just next, next, next. But the

829
00:41:18,847 --> 00:41:22,047
Speaker 1: things that you named is like, there's this difference between

830
00:41:22,647 --> 00:41:23,767
Speaker 1: dopamine and happiness.

831
00:41:24,047 --> 00:41:25,207
Speaker 3: Do you like doing those things?

832
00:41:25,247 --> 00:41:26,327
Speaker 1: I love doing those things.

833
00:41:26,367 --> 00:41:29,447
Speaker 2: I also also ADHD affects this right me. You don't

834
00:41:29,487 --> 00:41:33,047
Speaker 2: say they're feeling like in any way bad that You're like,

835
00:41:33,167 --> 00:41:35,007
Speaker 2: I don't like that stuff. There must be something wrong

836
00:41:35,047 --> 00:41:35,207
Speaker 2: with me.

837
00:41:35,327 --> 00:41:37,127
Speaker 1: You know that that's not true, Like you know that's

838
00:41:37,167 --> 00:41:37,527
Speaker 1: not true.

839
00:41:37,727 --> 00:41:39,767
Speaker 2: And we talked about this on one of our subs

840
00:41:39,807 --> 00:41:41,927
Speaker 2: episodes last week, and then I talked about it on Friday.

841
00:41:42,007 --> 00:41:45,847
Speaker 2: But the thing I worry about about this is putting

842
00:41:46,087 --> 00:41:50,967
Speaker 2: like moral value almost on the things that bring you pleasure.

843
00:41:51,647 --> 00:41:53,687
Speaker 2: Because one of the things that I've really come to

844
00:41:53,807 --> 00:41:56,487
Speaker 2: understand about judging this kind of stuff is, you know

845
00:41:56,567 --> 00:41:58,447
Speaker 2: the scenario that you explained at the beginning of this

846
00:41:58,567 --> 00:42:00,567
Speaker 2: jesse where you're like, you're on your couch with your

847
00:42:00,607 --> 00:42:03,847
Speaker 2: book and your TV and your phone, and I kind

848
00:42:03,887 --> 00:42:05,527
Speaker 2: of do that to myself, but then I begin to

849
00:42:05,527 --> 00:42:08,407
Speaker 2: feel a bit sick, and so I have to m claustrophobic. Yeah,

850
00:42:08,927 --> 00:42:11,087
Speaker 2: that's not how it makes you feel, is it. Like

851
00:42:11,207 --> 00:42:12,887
Speaker 2: you've explained this to me lots of times and so

852
00:42:12,967 --> 00:42:16,007
Speaker 2: of other people that like that makes you feel calmer.

853
00:42:16,527 --> 00:42:19,647
Speaker 3: So that so unable to focus better.

854
00:42:19,887 --> 00:42:22,567
Speaker 2: So for me to sit there and say to somebody

855
00:42:22,967 --> 00:42:25,447
Speaker 2: to say to you, like, you know what you should

856
00:42:25,447 --> 00:42:27,647
Speaker 2: do me, you should turn everything off and go for a.

857
00:42:27,647 --> 00:42:28,367
Speaker 1: Walk in the park.

858
00:42:28,687 --> 00:42:31,247
Speaker 2: Like that isn't necessary. I mean maybe it is, I

859
00:42:31,247 --> 00:42:33,247
Speaker 2: don't know, but I don't think that is going to

860
00:42:33,287 --> 00:42:35,967
Speaker 2: make you feel better. And feeling like you should be

861
00:42:36,047 --> 00:42:36,887
Speaker 2: doing that is making you.

862
00:42:36,927 --> 00:42:39,247
Speaker 3: Feel worse, right anxious exactly.

863
00:42:39,727 --> 00:42:42,887
Speaker 2: The language of detox, which is borrowed obviously from all

864
00:42:42,967 --> 00:42:46,847
Speaker 2: addictive stuff, and we'd say that giving up alcohol when

865
00:42:46,887 --> 00:42:49,647
Speaker 2: you've got an issue with it is incredibly difficult and challenging,

866
00:42:49,687 --> 00:42:50,927
Speaker 2: and you have to push through it to get to

867
00:42:51,007 --> 00:42:53,087
Speaker 2: a good place. God, maybe not even a good place,

868
00:42:53,167 --> 00:42:56,487
Speaker 2: a stable, steady place. Are we saying by using the

869
00:42:56,527 --> 00:42:59,687
Speaker 2: word detox in this context? Are we saying that Mia

870
00:43:00,167 --> 00:43:02,047
Speaker 2: has to close all her tabs and go and sit

871
00:43:02,127 --> 00:43:05,807
Speaker 2: in a park, even if that makes her really anxious

872
00:43:05,847 --> 00:43:09,007
Speaker 2: and unhappy, because eventually she's going to see the light.

873
00:43:09,327 --> 00:43:12,367
Speaker 2: That's not how your brain works, right, see the light.

874
00:43:12,527 --> 00:43:15,127
Speaker 3: I think the interesting thing about what you just said

875
00:43:15,767 --> 00:43:19,167
Speaker 3: is about how you two actually like those things. So

876
00:43:19,287 --> 00:43:23,687
Speaker 3: those low dopamine activities, your baseline is that you enjoy them.

877
00:43:24,487 --> 00:43:27,647
Speaker 3: I've always detested them, and I have always felt that

878
00:43:27,687 --> 00:43:29,927
Speaker 3: it's a moral failing you. Now everyone's like, go outside

879
00:43:29,967 --> 00:43:32,447
Speaker 3: and touch grass, and you know, go for a walk

880
00:43:32,487 --> 00:43:35,207
Speaker 3: on the beach and try meditation. Learning that I had

881
00:43:35,247 --> 00:43:40,687
Speaker 3: ADHD and learning what ADHD is. It's essentially a dysfunctional

882
00:43:40,807 --> 00:43:41,607
Speaker 3: reward system.

883
00:43:42,007 --> 00:43:43,487
Speaker 1: Or it's about dopamine right.

884
00:43:43,407 --> 00:43:47,247
Speaker 3: One hundred percent. So it's a completely dysfunctional dopamine reward system.

885
00:43:47,287 --> 00:43:50,327
Speaker 3: Because we don't naturally produce enough of it, we have

886
00:43:50,487 --> 00:43:54,167
Speaker 3: to look for it externally. It might be taking risks,

887
00:43:54,567 --> 00:43:58,847
Speaker 3: it might be jumping around, it might be fidget spinners.

888
00:43:59,007 --> 00:44:02,647
Speaker 3: We need more stimulation than the average bear. It's either

889
00:44:02,687 --> 00:44:04,967
Speaker 3: we don't produce it enough naturally or we don't use

890
00:44:05,007 --> 00:44:08,967
Speaker 3: it sufficiently. So what ADHD medication does is that it

891
00:44:09,047 --> 00:44:12,567
Speaker 3: are officially gives you dopamine, which helps you concentrate. Right, So,

892
00:44:12,607 --> 00:44:15,087
Speaker 3: if you even look at caffeine, caffeine in someone who

893
00:44:15,367 --> 00:44:19,727
Speaker 3: doesn't have ADHD is a stimulant. Caffeine for someone who

894
00:44:19,807 --> 00:44:22,487
Speaker 3: does have ADHD is a stimulant, but it also helps

895
00:44:22,527 --> 00:44:25,287
Speaker 3: you focus, and that's a big difference.

896
00:44:25,687 --> 00:44:29,087
Speaker 1: What I've always found strange about you is that so.

897
00:44:29,247 --> 00:44:31,567
Speaker 3: Many, so many you can't go on all day.

898
00:44:32,727 --> 00:44:36,207
Speaker 1: So true is that even though you're addicted to dopamine

899
00:44:36,287 --> 00:44:37,847
Speaker 1: and you wear your bright colors and you've got your

900
00:44:37,847 --> 00:44:41,127
Speaker 1: fidgets and you've got your phone, you still get the

901
00:44:41,167 --> 00:44:45,087
Speaker 1: big things done. And to me, that's why I hate

902
00:44:45,087 --> 00:44:47,087
Speaker 1: the distractions, because I feel like they're going to stop

903
00:44:47,127 --> 00:44:49,487
Speaker 1: me from getting the big things done. But you're able

904
00:44:49,567 --> 00:44:53,247
Speaker 1: to use the adrenaline. The whole thing about the reason

905
00:44:53,287 --> 00:44:56,127
Speaker 1: why we were detox off dopamine is of what we're

906
00:44:56,207 --> 00:44:58,447
Speaker 1: missing out on. But I'm not sure you're missing out

907
00:44:58,447 --> 00:44:58,687
Speaker 1: on me.

908
00:44:59,567 --> 00:45:01,367
Speaker 2: That's why it can't be one size fits all.

909
00:45:01,687 --> 00:45:04,967
Speaker 3: No, But I am because my dopamine, my biggest dopamine

910
00:45:05,007 --> 00:45:08,407
Speaker 3: hit his work. So when you say I get the

911
00:45:08,447 --> 00:45:11,407
Speaker 3: big things done, I get the work big things done.

912
00:45:11,687 --> 00:45:13,327
Speaker 3: Also because I don't have a choice because I'm co

913
00:45:13,447 --> 00:45:15,967
Speaker 3: owned the business, but I get the work things done.

914
00:45:16,007 --> 00:45:18,327
Speaker 3: I've got an enormous tank for work. It gives me

915
00:45:18,367 --> 00:45:19,007
Speaker 3: a dope mein hit.

916
00:45:19,327 --> 00:45:19,447
Speaker 4: Now.

917
00:45:19,487 --> 00:45:21,127
Speaker 3: There are a lot of people who work in jobs

918
00:45:21,167 --> 00:45:24,087
Speaker 3: where they get no dopamine out of their job at all.

919
00:45:24,407 --> 00:45:26,247
Speaker 3: It doesn't mean I love every minute of it, but

920
00:45:26,287 --> 00:45:28,487
Speaker 3: I find it very energizing and it's interesting to me.

921
00:45:29,487 --> 00:45:31,487
Speaker 3: What I don't get done are a lot of the

922
00:45:31,567 --> 00:45:34,047
Speaker 3: things that I really need to get done, like registering

923
00:45:34,087 --> 00:45:37,007
Speaker 3: my car or cooking dinners that I just can't get

924
00:45:37,047 --> 00:45:39,887
Speaker 3: done because there's never been any dopamine in it for me.

925
00:45:39,967 --> 00:45:41,607
Speaker 3: So I think the way to know if you should

926
00:45:41,647 --> 00:45:44,967
Speaker 3: do a dopamin detox or not, like anything, is your

927
00:45:45,047 --> 00:45:47,847
Speaker 3: life unmanageable? Like is it difficult? And when you both

928
00:45:47,927 --> 00:45:50,167
Speaker 3: talk about how you feel when it's just a bit much,

929
00:45:51,367 --> 00:45:54,847
Speaker 3: and then you do need to get back to that baseline.

930
00:45:54,407 --> 00:45:57,167
Speaker 2: That that's when my life becomes a money overwhelm.

931
00:45:57,207 --> 00:46:00,047
Speaker 3: It gives you something rather than going for a walk

932
00:46:00,167 --> 00:46:02,047
Speaker 3: just doesn't give me anything, and I don't have time.

933
00:46:03,127 --> 00:46:05,727
Speaker 3: You might need to recalibrate your levels of dopamine, but

934
00:46:05,767 --> 00:46:09,247
Speaker 3: when you have ADHD your whole life, your every waking minute.

935
00:46:09,287 --> 00:46:11,927
Speaker 3: It is about trying to manage your dopamine levels in

936
00:46:12,007 --> 00:46:14,327
Speaker 3: a way that's constructive, not destructive.

937
00:46:15,007 --> 00:46:16,887
Speaker 2: Very interesting, Yeah, out Ladders.

938
00:46:16,927 --> 00:46:19,167
Speaker 3: Will put in our newsletter this week some links to

939
00:46:19,607 --> 00:46:22,567
Speaker 3: a few articles about this, because as always, I mean,

940
00:46:22,607 --> 00:46:24,887
Speaker 3: I know, we're not saying you should detox from anything

941
00:46:25,207 --> 00:46:28,727
Speaker 3: like medical, but never do anything extreme or anything any

942
00:46:28,767 --> 00:46:31,807
Speaker 3: wellness trend that you see on the internet without really

943
00:46:31,847 --> 00:46:34,647
Speaker 3: looking into it, because it just might not be for you.

944
00:46:35,767 --> 00:46:39,407
Speaker 1: Will Taylor formally endorsed Kamala Harris or has she already?

945
00:46:39,487 --> 00:46:40,807
Speaker 2: When you say Taylor you mean.

946
00:46:43,447 --> 00:46:45,967
Speaker 1: Shere me needs the first name as opposed to the

947
00:46:46,127 --> 00:46:49,567
Speaker 1: potential future president of the United States? Or has she already?

948
00:46:49,647 --> 00:46:53,247
Speaker 1: In yesterday's subscriber episode, we unpacked all the latest from

949
00:46:53,287 --> 00:46:55,487
Speaker 1: the US election. We want to know if you're interested

950
00:46:55,527 --> 00:46:57,367
Speaker 1: in this, because we could talk about the US election

951
00:46:57,607 --> 00:47:00,447
Speaker 1: all day. A lot has happened. Trump is losing his

952
00:47:00,567 --> 00:47:02,087
Speaker 1: mind a little bit we've had.

953
00:47:03,287 --> 00:47:05,007
Speaker 3: I so love that you guys are on this train

954
00:47:05,087 --> 00:47:07,247
Speaker 3: and that I'm back on it. So subscribers, we know

955
00:47:07,327 --> 00:47:10,607
Speaker 3: that the US politics isn't for everyone. Tried making it

956
00:47:10,647 --> 00:47:13,127
Speaker 3: a subscriber episode this week. Gosh, we had a good time.

957
00:47:13,247 --> 00:47:14,687
Speaker 3: We'll put a link in the show notes if you

958
00:47:14,767 --> 00:47:15,127
Speaker 3: want to have a.

959
00:47:15,167 --> 00:47:17,527
Speaker 2: Listen, Yes, go and listen. If you like it, tell

960
00:47:17,607 --> 00:47:20,007
Speaker 2: us we want to know. A massive thank you to

961
00:47:20,087 --> 00:47:22,247
Speaker 2: all of you out louderus for listening to our show

962
00:47:22,287 --> 00:47:25,007
Speaker 2: today and every time you do it. We really appreciate it,

963
00:47:25,087 --> 00:47:27,367
Speaker 2: and of course to our fabulous team for putting it together.

964
00:47:27,607 --> 00:47:29,207
Speaker 2: We're going to be back in your ears tomorrow.

965
00:47:29,367 --> 00:47:33,047
Speaker 1: Bye bye bye. Shout out to any Mum and Mia

966
00:47:33,127 --> 00:47:35,967
Speaker 1: subscribers listening. If you love the show and you want

967
00:47:35,967 --> 00:47:38,967
Speaker 1: to support us, subscribing to MoMA Mia is the very

968
00:47:39,087 --> 00:47:39,807
Speaker 1: best way.

969
00:47:39,727 --> 00:47:40,127
Speaker 6: To do so.

970
00:47:40,567 --> 00:47:42,287
Speaker 1: There's a link in the episode description.