WEBVTT - Nikki's Divorce Began With A Midnight Email

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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to Amma mea podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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<v Speaker 2>that this podcast is recorded on white dresses and canna

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<v Speaker 2>pays and flowers, the perfect shade of pearl, Promises and

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<v Speaker 2>purchases and blueprints for a life. Will do this, and

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<v Speaker 2>will do that, and oh the places will go. An

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<v Speaker 2>act of audacious hope, signed off on by everyone you love.

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<v Speaker 2>Reinforcement against the world, a comrade, a co conspirator, the

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<v Speaker 2>person at your back. And then a slow fade or

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<v Speaker 2>a sudden reveal, a creeping unease, or a bolt of betrayal.

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<v Speaker 2>For many, divorce at the moment of impact is an

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<v Speaker 2>upending of everything we're taught to counter. A dream that

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<v Speaker 2>turned dark from the edges, in plan that didn't pan

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<v Speaker 2>out in the most public of ways, a financial earthquake

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<v Speaker 2>and emotional tnunami. A practical puzzle, how do you untangle

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<v Speaker 2>two lives or three, four or five? Throw in the

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<v Speaker 2>family and the friends and the acquaintances, and you're on

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<v Speaker 2>picking an entire community, pulling on threads until they're free

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<v Speaker 2>and clear. It takes time. You say, at least three years,

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<v Speaker 2>you told me at least four and a half, you said, mids.

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<v Speaker 2>You told me all kinds of things when I asked

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<v Speaker 2>about the words you wish you'd had in your pocket

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<v Speaker 2>at the start of your own seismic divorce shift. Some

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<v Speaker 2>of them are shiny with optimism, some of them sopping

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<v Speaker 2>in pain. You have to remember you said that the

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<v Speaker 2>person you marry is never the person you divorce. It's

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<v Speaker 2>okay for you to want life to be better, not

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<v Speaker 2>just for your kids, but also for yourself. You said,

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<v Speaker 2>it's okay to be emotional. It doesn't mean you're not

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<v Speaker 2>smart and strong. There is no shame in this. The

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<v Speaker 2>grass isn't always greener.

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<v Speaker 1>You told me.

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<v Speaker 2>Pick your battles, have a bigger getaway fun than you

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<v Speaker 2>think you need. Don't lose your self confidence, Separate money

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<v Speaker 2>and emotion as much as you can. You're going to survive,

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<v Speaker 2>you said, and be better than okay. You're going to

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<v Speaker 2>be free and reborn when devastation is all you see

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<v Speaker 2>and feel. You told me, it's hard to see the light,

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<v Speaker 2>but it will come. Your words, not mine, offering a

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<v Speaker 2>hand to hold as the wedding video rewinds, as the

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<v Speaker 2>uncoupling clicks open, as a new life begins to reach,

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<v Speaker 2>bud and bloom. Divorce is an ending and a beginning,

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<v Speaker 2>and beginnings should be celebrated. And what if, just like

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<v Speaker 2>at that party with the dresses and cannopeys and flowers,

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<v Speaker 2>the perfect shade of pearl, you get to walk towards it, bolstered, supported,

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<v Speaker 2>flanked by love and told congratulations mate for choosing you.

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<v Speaker 2>I hope you'll be very happy together.

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<v Speaker 1>Hello.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Holly Wainwright and I am mid midlife, midfamily, mid

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<v Speaker 2>non marriage. I'm getting straight to it today because the

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<v Speaker 2>story you're about to hear is one that you've been

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<v Speaker 2>asking for, and you don't need to hang around a

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<v Speaker 2>minute longer to hear it. Nicki Parkinson thought that her

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<v Speaker 2>husband of fifteen years was having an affair. No, he said,

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<v Speaker 2>you're imagining it, he said, No way, he said. And

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<v Speaker 2>then one day she got an email in the middle

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<v Speaker 2>of the night, the subject line all caps. I'm sorry.

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<v Speaker 2>Nicky's going to tell you that story in a moment.

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<v Speaker 2>But importantly, she's also going to tell you what became

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<v Speaker 2>before and what came after it. Because what everyone who's

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<v Speaker 2>lived through the collapse of a long term relationship knows

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<v Speaker 2>to be true, even in the face of an I'm

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<v Speaker 2>sorry midnight email is that a divorce is never a

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<v Speaker 2>simple linear Everything was absolutely fine and then boom story.

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<v Speaker 2>You're going to really like Nikki too, not just because

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<v Speaker 2>of her honesty, but because six years after that email,

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<v Speaker 2>she's got a lot of perspectives on the mistakes she

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<v Speaker 2>believes that she made as her marriage fell apart, both

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<v Speaker 2>really practical ones and emotional ones, and now she shares

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<v Speaker 2>those mistakes and what she believes of their solutions with

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<v Speaker 2>other women in the same situation. She also has a

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<v Speaker 2>story about what happened in their family earlier this year

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<v Speaker 2>that brought her and the man who wrote that email

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<v Speaker 2>back under the same roof, and it's inspiring in the extreme. So,

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<v Speaker 2>mids you asked for it, and here it is divorce

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<v Speaker 2>with Nicki Parkinson. Nikki, I've seen you say that when

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<v Speaker 2>a friend tells you they're getting divorced, and you're tempted

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<v Speaker 2>to say, oh, I'm sorry, that maybe you should stop

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<v Speaker 2>yourself and instead offer some congratulations. Why is that?

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<v Speaker 1>Look? I think that the connotations around divorce and separation

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<v Speaker 1>is that it is a failure and it is so

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<v Speaker 1>it's something that we should have a lot of sorrow

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<v Speaker 1>around and actually do you really do? So let's not

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<v Speaker 1>sugarcoat that because it's pretty awful. But I think what

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<v Speaker 1>it is is somebody is taking that next step into

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<v Speaker 1>this next chapter or season of their life, and they're

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<v Speaker 1>doing it with courage, and they're brave and they're strong,

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<v Speaker 1>and so what they need is I'm so proud of you,

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<v Speaker 1>or a congratulations on your divorce if it feels like

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<v Speaker 1>the right thing to say. But our default is, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm so sorry, And it's that look that someone gives

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<v Speaker 1>you when when they say or that pity look, I suppose,

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<v Speaker 1>And I just think we need to reframe that.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I suppose obviously, under the umbrella of divorce

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<v Speaker 2>and why a relationship ends, there are so many different

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<v Speaker 2>ways that can happen. That's sometimes the congratulations on prioritizing

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<v Speaker 2>yourself and your sanity and health is exactly the right

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<v Speaker 2>thing to say. And sometimes i'm sorry that you were

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<v Speaker 2>betrayed might be the right thing to say.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, yes, yes, absolutely, yeah, I mean there are there

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<v Speaker 1>are spectrums, right, there's the it takes on everything. So yes,

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<v Speaker 1>you're right in I'm sorry that that happened to you,

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<v Speaker 1>But how do we make that the best thing for you.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and how do we throw out the idea as

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<v Speaker 2>you say that it's always a failure and a disaster.

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<v Speaker 2>And yeah, of course, let's start with your own experience

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<v Speaker 2>of divorce, the thing that led you to the work

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<v Speaker 2>that you do. First, tell me about your marriage.

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<v Speaker 1>We were we were set up on a blind date

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<v Speaker 1>with our mutual hairdresser and an interfering mother.

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<v Speaker 2>Do you mind me asking you how old you were

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<v Speaker 2>when you got together?

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, ish ish ish. I would have been twenty five, so.

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<v Speaker 2>Like mid twenties. Yeah, mid training time that people are

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<v Speaker 2>often coupling up kind of.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah. So I had a three year old at

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<v Speaker 1>the time from a former high school sweetheart relationship, and

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<v Speaker 1>so it was her and I and we my ex

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<v Speaker 1>and I had met and it was, you know, this

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<v Speaker 1>really beautiful, well wind romance. It was great. It was

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<v Speaker 1>all things that we had hoped that marriage would be.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, we go in our mid twenties, we're thinking, Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>what is this partnership a lifelong partnership? And you hope

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<v Speaker 1>that it is. I mean, nobody gets married with the

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<v Speaker 1>thought that, well someday I'm going to get divorced or

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going to separate. So it was you know, I

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<v Speaker 1>had up its ups and downs. It was never perfect.

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<v Speaker 1>It was good and it was bad, and it was

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<v Speaker 1>fucking horrible at the times, but it was it was.

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<v Speaker 1>It was us, and it was You go into a

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<v Speaker 1>relationship or you go into a partnership hoping that it's

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<v Speaker 1>going to bring you a lifelong trail of happiness. I

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<v Speaker 1>suppose along the way.

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<v Speaker 2>What were the first signs for you that maybe things

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<v Speaker 2>weren't as happy as you maybe thought.

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<v Speaker 1>I think we were just not on the same page, Holly.

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<v Speaker 1>We had I was quite growth driven and he was

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<v Speaker 1>quite happy just to be And not that that's a

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<v Speaker 1>bad thing.

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<v Speaker 2>It's quite a familiar story though. Actually, yes, we in

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<v Speaker 2>heterosexual relationships. As you get a bit older, that I

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<v Speaker 2>see around me a lot is that often women are like,

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<v Speaker 2>this can't be everything. I want to work on myself.

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<v Speaker 2>I want what's the next phase? What are we going

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<v Speaker 2>to like that? And the often manimal.

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<v Speaker 1>Things are okay, yeah, I'm not going to question that.

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<v Speaker 1>That's okay. We're good. We're good. We've got you know,

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<v Speaker 1>we've got a house, we've got super we've got money

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<v Speaker 1>in the bank. Kids are okay, let's just keep plotting along.

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<v Speaker 1>But I think the thing is that asy and I

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<v Speaker 1>think generally as women, we are we're looking for a

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<v Speaker 1>broader not meaning, but maybe purpose for what are we

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<v Speaker 1>kind of doing here? And we have children and then

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<v Speaker 1>children start to grow up and it's just like, oh shit,

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<v Speaker 1>is this it? Like? Is this?

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<v Speaker 2>Is this it?

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<v Speaker 1>Like? Am I going to live out the rest of

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<v Speaker 1>my days doing the day in day out? And I

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<v Speaker 1>guess for me, I probably wanted a little bit more,

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<v Speaker 1>but I wasn't brave enough to really deep dive into that, going,

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<v Speaker 1>oh gosh, you know, do I end a marriage? Do

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<v Speaker 1>I end a relationship just because that's what I want

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<v Speaker 1>to do? And had I guess an event not had happened,

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<v Speaker 1>would I have a question I asked myself, is would

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<v Speaker 1>I have been brave enough to end the marriage or

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<v Speaker 1>end the relationship or would I have just stuck it out?

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<v Speaker 2>And the thing that happened? You were you suspect for

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<v Speaker 2>a while? Did you that maybe that he was seeing

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<v Speaker 2>somebody else, that he was having an affair? Is that right?

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<v Speaker 1>I did? Yeah?

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<v Speaker 2>And what did that look like?

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<v Speaker 1>It was? I suspected it for a really long time.

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<v Speaker 1>There was just a real disconnect and.

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<v Speaker 2>You said a really long time. How long do you

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<v Speaker 2>are we talking? Months? Are we talking to you here?

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<v Speaker 1>I'm I'm going to say about eighteen months prior to

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<v Speaker 1>our marriage actually ending. And you know, I might have

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<v Speaker 1>it might have just been how I was feeling. But

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<v Speaker 1>I'm a really big believer in gut instinct, and something

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<v Speaker 1>told me that something wasn't right. And that's something I

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't sure what it was. I just couldn't put my

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<v Speaker 1>finger on it. So for a long period of time,

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<v Speaker 1>I thought that I was just going a bit crazy, right,

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<v Speaker 1>Like I was asking myself, Am I just inventing these thoughts?

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<v Speaker 1>Am I reading into things? Because I just don't feel

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<v Speaker 1>really happy at the moment?

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<v Speaker 2>Were you asking him?

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<v Speaker 1>I was asking him, was saying completely denied it absolutely not,

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<v Speaker 1>You're crazy? Why would you think that that's not true?

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<v Speaker 1>All of these connotations that I felt like. And at

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<v Speaker 1>the end of the day, and I now know, you

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<v Speaker 1>know what gas lighting is, and at that point in time,

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<v Speaker 1>it was not this term that is thrown around quite

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<v Speaker 1>often these days. So I mean we're talking six years ago,

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<v Speaker 1>so it was starting to make its way out into

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<v Speaker 1>the psychological world, I suppose, and in the media, So

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<v Speaker 1>I didn't really have an understanding of what that was.

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<v Speaker 2>So you knew, so you knew you weren't necessarily in

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<v Speaker 2>your marriage leaping out of bed every day going this

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<v Speaker 2>is amazing. As you say, you were questioning where you're going,

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<v Speaker 2>but you were going along. You're suspecting this, You're asking him,

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<v Speaker 2>He's saying, though, then and then what happened?

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<v Speaker 1>Then? What happened is it was he had a small

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<v Speaker 1>medical procedure done, and we'd got back from the hospital

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<v Speaker 1>and he sat on the couch and he just said,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't love you anymore. I'm leaving. Gosh, cold hearted,

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<v Speaker 1>brutal conversation, nothing more than that.

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<v Speaker 2>I this question seems so silly in how did you feel?

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<v Speaker 2>What did you What happened in that moment?

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<v Speaker 1>Felt like my world had just been knocked out from

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<v Speaker 1>even though I had, you know, I had this thought

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<v Speaker 1>that something was going on, something wasn't right. So even

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<v Speaker 1>though I felt like that, I can't I was really

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<v Speaker 1>quite blindsided, to be honest.

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<v Speaker 2>Because he'd he'd been denying it and reassuring you.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, and look Holly. To this day he still

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<v Speaker 1>won't admit that to me. And that's okay. That's that's

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<v Speaker 1>his story, and that's on him, that's not on me.

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<v Speaker 1>But how I felt was it was kind of like

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<v Speaker 1>a bit of like an outer body experience, to be

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<v Speaker 1>really honest. I'm sitting on the couch and I'm hearing

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<v Speaker 1>these words come out of his mouth and they're landing,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm like, what the fuck has just happened here?

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<v Speaker 1>And it wasn't until a little while later to when

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<v Speaker 1>the kids were going to come back home that we

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<v Speaker 1>had to put on this happy face of because the

0:13:37.127 --> 0:13:39.447
<v Speaker 1>next day I was traveling with one of my children

0:13:39.487 --> 0:13:42.247
<v Speaker 1>for a sporting event. So then I had to pack

0:13:42.287 --> 0:13:45.527
<v Speaker 1>everyone up and jump in the car the next morning

0:13:46.127 --> 0:13:48.527
<v Speaker 1>with the happy, smiley face. Let's get you through the

0:13:48.647 --> 0:13:53.127
<v Speaker 1>you know, the next couple of days, and knowing that

0:13:53.727 --> 0:13:56.367
<v Speaker 1>in turnal like when I got back, things were going

0:13:56.367 --> 0:14:00.447
<v Speaker 1>to change dramatically. How old were your kids at this point,

0:14:01.447 --> 0:14:04.687
<v Speaker 1>sixteen and sixteen and eleven.

0:14:04.567 --> 0:14:09.247
<v Speaker 2>Sixteen and eleven, and he says this, you've got to oh,

0:14:09.327 --> 0:14:12.367
<v Speaker 2>here's dinner time, here's packing the bags, here's going off

0:14:12.407 --> 0:14:15.687
<v Speaker 2>to do the parental stuff. When you got back. Was

0:14:15.727 --> 0:14:18.927
<v Speaker 2>there any part of you at that time like did

0:14:18.967 --> 0:14:21.647
<v Speaker 2>you go, well, this is over or did you go

0:14:21.767 --> 0:14:22.807
<v Speaker 2>we should work on it.

0:14:23.487 --> 0:14:28.487
<v Speaker 1>I went straight into the I suppose the stage of grief.

0:14:28.527 --> 0:14:30.927
<v Speaker 1>I skipped the anger to start with, and then it

0:14:31.007 --> 0:14:34.167
<v Speaker 1>went back into bargaining, right, so how can we make

0:14:34.207 --> 0:14:40.127
<v Speaker 1>it work? And almost like begging him to stay, really

0:14:40.167 --> 0:14:45.207
<v Speaker 1>begging him to let's fix this. But in hindsight, I

0:14:45.287 --> 0:14:48.327
<v Speaker 1>knew that it was too far gone to fix and

0:14:48.407 --> 0:14:50.767
<v Speaker 1>even if we did fix it, it wasn't going to

0:14:50.847 --> 0:14:53.647
<v Speaker 1>be as it was ever again.

0:14:53.607 --> 0:14:57.487
<v Speaker 2>Mothers oftener, let's fix this because you don't want to.

0:14:58.087 --> 0:14:59.967
<v Speaker 2>And I know that and we'll get to all this later,

0:15:00.047 --> 0:15:01.927
<v Speaker 2>that this isn't necessarily what it is. But in the

0:15:01.927 --> 0:15:04.567
<v Speaker 2>picture in your head, blow up my children's lives, ruin

0:15:04.647 --> 0:15:07.447
<v Speaker 2>my children's lives. And again I know that's not what happens,

0:15:07.447 --> 0:15:10.447
<v Speaker 2>but this is what's going going through your head. We

0:15:10.487 --> 0:15:12.207
<v Speaker 2>can deal with this, we can put up with this.

0:15:12.287 --> 0:15:14.967
<v Speaker 2>It's not perfect, but we'll do it. So you were

0:15:15.047 --> 0:15:17.887
<v Speaker 2>kind of, I imagine, in that phase for a while.

0:15:18.247 --> 0:15:22.167
<v Speaker 1>For months, months and months, and then just trying to

0:15:22.207 --> 0:15:25.567
<v Speaker 1>wrap my head around how we were actually going to

0:15:25.607 --> 0:15:29.007
<v Speaker 1>then tell the kids and what did that look like?

0:15:29.687 --> 0:15:32.367
<v Speaker 1>And even though you know I came from a legal background,

0:15:34.087 --> 0:15:38.087
<v Speaker 1>and I've seen many many people go through what I

0:15:38.247 --> 0:15:41.927
<v Speaker 1>was going through. I honestly didn't think that I would

0:15:42.047 --> 0:15:43.647
<v Speaker 1>that that would be me. One day I would be

0:15:43.687 --> 0:15:45.527
<v Speaker 1>sitting on the other side and being the client, Like,

0:15:45.567 --> 0:15:47.367
<v Speaker 1>I really didn't think that that would be me.

0:15:48.167 --> 0:15:50.087
<v Speaker 2>Can I ask you who you turned to in that

0:15:50.247 --> 0:15:53.767
<v Speaker 2>very tumultuous time when this was all very fresh? Was

0:15:53.767 --> 0:15:58.847
<v Speaker 2>it girlfriends? Was it family? Did you keep it to yourself? Like?

0:15:59.207 --> 0:16:01.967
<v Speaker 2>How did you go about go honoring some support and

0:16:02.007 --> 0:16:04.127
<v Speaker 2>perspective in those early days.

0:16:04.407 --> 0:16:06.847
<v Speaker 1>The first phone call I made was to my girlfriend,

0:16:06.967 --> 0:16:10.487
<v Speaker 1>and we'd shared a lot about, you know, how I

0:16:10.527 --> 0:16:13.087
<v Speaker 1>felt things were and what was kind of going on

0:16:13.207 --> 0:16:16.367
<v Speaker 1>and my suspicions and how I felt about that, and

0:16:18.327 --> 0:16:21.687
<v Speaker 1>then it was just like the phone call and I'm crying,

0:16:21.967 --> 0:16:24.727
<v Speaker 1>sobbing mess on the phone, and all I could get

0:16:24.767 --> 0:16:30.607
<v Speaker 1>out to her was it's finally happened. And she, of

0:16:30.647 --> 0:16:33.967
<v Speaker 1>course knew exactly what I was talking about, so, you know,

0:16:34.047 --> 0:16:38.207
<v Speaker 1>she's there in a heartbeat, and we had to coordinate

0:16:38.327 --> 0:16:41.327
<v Speaker 1>times where he wasn't going to be home so that

0:16:41.367 --> 0:16:43.567
<v Speaker 1>she could turn up, so that I could fall apart

0:16:43.607 --> 0:16:47.047
<v Speaker 1>without you know, collectively trying to keep it together with

0:16:47.167 --> 0:16:50.967
<v Speaker 1>family and those sorts of things and girlfriends and my

0:16:51.087 --> 0:16:55.527
<v Speaker 1>mum and my sister were initially really great support. So

0:16:55.567 --> 0:16:59.247
<v Speaker 1>I kept the circle really tight because you know, living

0:16:59.247 --> 0:17:02.767
<v Speaker 1>in where I live, it's a very small town and

0:17:02.807 --> 0:17:05.647
<v Speaker 1>small community. So that was probably one of the things

0:17:05.687 --> 0:17:09.527
<v Speaker 1>that I really wanted to do, was not involve you

0:17:09.887 --> 0:17:12.807
<v Speaker 1>have it spread across the community, I suppose.

0:17:13.207 --> 0:17:15.367
<v Speaker 2>And it's interesting what you said about how you had

0:17:15.407 --> 0:17:20.247
<v Speaker 2>to schedule falling apart time, because that's the reality for

0:17:20.327 --> 0:17:23.047
<v Speaker 2>a lot of especially if you've got kids. That's the

0:17:23.087 --> 0:17:27.927
<v Speaker 2>reality of you, Like, I can't fall apart entirely. I've

0:17:27.927 --> 0:17:31.487
<v Speaker 2>got to give myself between one o'clock and three o'clock.

0:17:31.807 --> 0:17:36.087
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, or you know seven pm in the shower where

0:17:36.127 --> 0:17:38.367
<v Speaker 1>you're rocking in the shower and you're a sobbing this.

0:17:38.487 --> 0:17:40.487
<v Speaker 1>I mean, how many mothers have cried in the shower

0:17:40.527 --> 0:17:42.767
<v Speaker 1>over It's the only safe place that you can do

0:17:42.847 --> 0:17:45.847
<v Speaker 1>it without your kids looking at you, going shit, what's

0:17:45.887 --> 0:17:51.127
<v Speaker 1>going on with mum.

0:17:51.367 --> 0:17:53.687
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to be back with my conversation with Nikki

0:17:53.767 --> 0:17:57.047
<v Speaker 2>Parkinson after this break, talking about the moment she knew

0:17:57.087 --> 0:18:01.767
<v Speaker 2>her marriage was over. Was it an email that you

0:18:01.887 --> 0:18:05.727
<v Speaker 2>got from him that finally made you go, oh, we

0:18:05.847 --> 0:18:08.047
<v Speaker 2>are getting divorced. What happened?

0:18:08.127 --> 0:18:13.967
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the email, the email arrived at the early hours

0:18:14.967 --> 0:18:18.847
<v Speaker 1>one morning with the headline I'm sorry.

0:18:18.927 --> 0:18:23.767
<v Speaker 2>And the email from your partner with the head like,

0:18:23.847 --> 0:18:25.847
<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry all caps, all caps.

0:18:25.847 --> 0:18:27.127
<v Speaker 1>You're like shouting at me.

0:18:27.487 --> 0:18:29.407
<v Speaker 2>It's not going to be good.

0:18:29.527 --> 0:18:32.807
<v Speaker 1>What did the email? Then? The email? It was never

0:18:32.807 --> 0:18:35.767
<v Speaker 1>going to be good with that title, right, So, and

0:18:36.527 --> 0:18:39.127
<v Speaker 1>I never check emails when I first wake up in

0:18:39.167 --> 0:18:44.127
<v Speaker 1>the morning, it's just not It was four am. I'm like, oh,

0:18:44.287 --> 0:18:46.927
<v Speaker 1>I just check what's going on in the world. Open

0:18:47.007 --> 0:18:50.527
<v Speaker 1>the and I see the email from him, and I

0:18:50.607 --> 0:18:54.847
<v Speaker 1>knew instinctively that something was obviously not right. But the

0:18:54.887 --> 0:19:00.047
<v Speaker 1>email was basically saying that he had actually been caught

0:19:00.167 --> 0:19:04.367
<v Speaker 1>with He's the person he was having an affair with,

0:19:05.007 --> 0:19:06.407
<v Speaker 1>and that's what he was sorry for.

0:19:07.527 --> 0:19:11.887
<v Speaker 2>Caught by him her husband. Oh, so she was also

0:19:11.927 --> 0:19:15.647
<v Speaker 2>in a relationship. And so he would not Up until

0:19:15.647 --> 0:19:18.327
<v Speaker 2>this point, he hadn't admitted to you that he was

0:19:18.367 --> 0:19:20.807
<v Speaker 2>having an affair. You'd been asking him for more than

0:19:20.807 --> 0:19:23.167
<v Speaker 2>a year, and even when he said I don't love

0:19:23.207 --> 0:19:25.527
<v Speaker 2>you anymore, he wouldn't tell you no. But when she

0:19:25.727 --> 0:19:29.167
<v Speaker 2>got busted. That's when he had to tell you because

0:19:29.207 --> 0:19:30.927
<v Speaker 2>he knew it would come out. It would come out,

0:19:31.087 --> 0:19:36.447
<v Speaker 2>and obviously protecting everybody here within your community, people that

0:19:36.487 --> 0:19:38.847
<v Speaker 2>you sort of like, did you have mutual like was

0:19:38.847 --> 0:19:41.367
<v Speaker 2>it going to blow up, you know, in your lives?

0:19:41.607 --> 0:19:48.887
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it was to It was going to blow up, Yeah, friendships, workplaces,

0:19:51.007 --> 0:19:53.927
<v Speaker 1>all of the all of the things, and you know

0:19:54.007 --> 0:19:59.847
<v Speaker 1>it did. It did exactly that. It blew everything apart,

0:20:00.527 --> 0:20:04.407
<v Speaker 1>and then when the pieces start to land again, you

0:20:04.487 --> 0:20:06.527
<v Speaker 1>then have to figure out how you're going to put

0:20:06.527 --> 0:20:08.967
<v Speaker 1>that back together and is it it's obviously not going

0:20:09.047 --> 0:20:11.807
<v Speaker 1>to go back in the same way that it came out.

0:20:12.167 --> 0:20:15.087
<v Speaker 1>So then that's where the gift is, right, So that's

0:20:15.127 --> 0:20:18.967
<v Speaker 1>where the gift that you get to choose. And mind you,

0:20:19.447 --> 0:20:21.127
<v Speaker 1>for anyone listening, I did it terribly?

0:20:21.367 --> 0:20:23.927
<v Speaker 2>What did you do? So tell yes, because I'm sure

0:20:24.207 --> 0:20:27.287
<v Speaker 2>you know, the hard fought wisdom of what you went

0:20:27.327 --> 0:20:30.287
<v Speaker 2>through then has got you to a very different place

0:20:30.327 --> 0:20:33.247
<v Speaker 2>where you help women who are in that situation. But

0:20:33.367 --> 0:20:36.087
<v Speaker 2>the mistakes that you made there, what did you do?

0:20:37.007 --> 0:20:39.607
<v Speaker 2>Oh gosh, I imagine when you got that email. I

0:20:39.607 --> 0:20:41.967
<v Speaker 2>imagine you threw your phone at the wall and had

0:20:42.007 --> 0:20:46.727
<v Speaker 2>whiskey for breakfast, Like that's what I could have done. Sorry,

0:20:47.207 --> 0:20:50.367
<v Speaker 2>maybe not.

0:20:49.127 --> 0:20:51.607
<v Speaker 1>Maybe not whiskey, I mean not whiskey, No, no, no,

0:20:52.127 --> 0:20:52.927
<v Speaker 1>the Irish coffee.

0:20:53.007 --> 0:20:53.127
<v Speaker 2>Right.

0:20:55.487 --> 0:21:01.327
<v Speaker 1>Oh. When I read the email, I I picked up

0:21:01.367 --> 0:21:07.087
<v Speaker 1>the phone and out in the backyard at four am

0:21:07.127 --> 0:21:12.447
<v Speaker 1>in the morning, screaming obscenity down the phone to him.

0:21:12.807 --> 0:21:14.807
<v Speaker 1>Funnily enough, he picks the fine up at four o'clock

0:21:14.807 --> 0:21:17.407
<v Speaker 1>in the morning, so you know he's probably waiting for

0:21:17.447 --> 0:21:19.487
<v Speaker 1>the phone call, right he.

0:21:19.567 --> 0:21:21.647
<v Speaker 2>Knew that, I'm sorry, email had landed.

0:21:21.807 --> 0:21:25.207
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, it had landed. So what did I do?

0:21:25.327 --> 0:21:28.367
<v Speaker 1>What are the mistakes that I made? I communication was terrible?

0:21:29.647 --> 0:21:31.447
<v Speaker 2>How could it not be the NICKI really in the

0:21:31.487 --> 0:21:32.007
<v Speaker 2>heat of.

0:21:31.927 --> 0:21:37.647
<v Speaker 1>That, Yeah, yeah, in hindsight. And I what I tell

0:21:37.687 --> 0:21:40.607
<v Speaker 1>people now is give yourself the gift of time and

0:21:41.247 --> 0:21:46.127
<v Speaker 1>pressing pause on angry communication because we all want to

0:21:46.167 --> 0:21:49.127
<v Speaker 1>say it, right. But I did, and I you know,

0:21:49.167 --> 0:21:52.967
<v Speaker 1>I shot off emails, I shot off text messages. I

0:21:53.007 --> 0:21:59.527
<v Speaker 1>wouldn't speak with him. I you know, I never involved

0:22:00.087 --> 0:22:04.647
<v Speaker 1>the kids in that, despite being accused of being the kids,

0:22:04.647 --> 0:22:08.087
<v Speaker 1>of being involved in that. They were my rock and

0:22:08.127 --> 0:22:10.247
<v Speaker 1>I had to My own thought was, how do I

0:22:10.327 --> 0:22:14.447
<v Speaker 1>protect them through this, and how do I protect them

0:22:15.207 --> 0:22:18.807
<v Speaker 1>knowing what could come out in the community, Because at

0:22:18.807 --> 0:22:21.687
<v Speaker 1>the end of the day, he's still their dad and

0:22:21.727 --> 0:22:24.487
<v Speaker 1>they get to still have a beautiful relationship with him

0:22:24.487 --> 0:22:28.087
<v Speaker 1>and vice versa, and none of those actions should stop that.

0:22:29.007 --> 0:22:32.527
<v Speaker 2>But your anger was very valid at that time.

0:22:32.727 --> 0:22:35.927
<v Speaker 1>Sure, and I you know, there were moments there I

0:22:35.967 --> 0:22:37.727
<v Speaker 1>was just like, I just want to punish you for

0:22:37.807 --> 0:22:42.047
<v Speaker 1>what you did, so I would write it all out.

0:22:42.167 --> 0:22:44.847
<v Speaker 1>But you know, there would be moments WHEREUNT just writing

0:22:44.887 --> 0:22:48.047
<v Speaker 1>the emails and they're so vile and vicious and angry

0:22:48.127 --> 0:22:49.967
<v Speaker 1>and saying all the things that I wanted to say,

0:22:50.007 --> 0:22:52.007
<v Speaker 1>and I'm like, I really shouldn't send this. I really

0:22:52.007 --> 0:22:53.847
<v Speaker 1>shouldn't send it. Not fuck it, I'm going to send that,

0:22:55.047 --> 0:22:57.647
<v Speaker 1>and then it's just like you can't take it back.

0:22:58.727 --> 0:23:03.607
<v Speaker 1>It's so those things I think I didn't do very well.

0:23:03.727 --> 0:23:06.367
<v Speaker 1>And the other thing I did was I lay it

0:23:06.527 --> 0:23:10.567
<v Speaker 1>up and I shouldn't have. I should have got the

0:23:10.647 --> 0:23:14.967
<v Speaker 1>advice I should have. You know, I think in any

0:23:15.367 --> 0:23:18.167
<v Speaker 1>vocation that we have, if you are, you know for

0:23:18.247 --> 0:23:20.767
<v Speaker 1>a lawyer that is their own client has a fool

0:23:20.807 --> 0:23:23.047
<v Speaker 1>for a client, right, So if.

0:23:23.007 --> 0:23:25.887
<v Speaker 2>Yes, because yeah, let's two steps back. You were a lawyer.

0:23:26.407 --> 0:23:29.367
<v Speaker 1>I wasn't working in family law at that time, but

0:23:29.447 --> 0:23:31.007
<v Speaker 1>you had I had, yes.

0:23:31.007 --> 0:23:35.047
<v Speaker 2>So you probably had. For some women who are in

0:23:35.087 --> 0:23:39.327
<v Speaker 2>this situation, they have no clue about what the next

0:23:39.327 --> 0:23:42.607
<v Speaker 2>step should be. You probably did have some clue because

0:23:42.607 --> 0:23:45.327
<v Speaker 2>you've been working in that world and talking to women,

0:23:45.367 --> 0:23:50.207
<v Speaker 2>I assume who were in relatively similar situations. But was

0:23:50.327 --> 0:23:54.247
<v Speaker 2>the initial lawyering up part of the sort of punishment

0:23:54.367 --> 0:23:57.007
<v Speaker 2>almost like that I'm gonna I don't know what kind

0:23:57.127 --> 0:23:57.327
<v Speaker 2>is that?

0:23:57.727 --> 0:24:00.407
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? Probably? I mean, yeah, I did. I had all

0:24:00.447 --> 0:24:03.007
<v Speaker 1>of the legal knowledge. I knew what I had to do,

0:24:03.087 --> 0:24:05.447
<v Speaker 1>when I had to do it, what I needed, and

0:24:05.487 --> 0:24:08.047
<v Speaker 1>how the process was going to unfold if I took

0:24:08.087 --> 0:24:11.327
<v Speaker 1>it from point A to point But what I did

0:24:11.367 --> 0:24:17.247
<v Speaker 1>do was I shot off a legal letter from my

0:24:17.407 --> 0:24:20.807
<v Speaker 1>lawyer in how do we fix the finances? How do

0:24:20.847 --> 0:24:24.567
<v Speaker 1>we sort the kids out? And it all became very formal,

0:24:24.727 --> 0:24:29.567
<v Speaker 1>very quickly. So that was one of the mistakes that

0:24:29.607 --> 0:24:32.367
<v Speaker 1>I made. What I should have done was get some

0:24:32.447 --> 0:24:38.647
<v Speaker 1>advice and somebody independently giving me advice irrespective of what

0:24:38.847 --> 0:24:43.047
<v Speaker 1>knowledge I had, and then just taken some time to

0:24:43.167 --> 0:24:45.767
<v Speaker 1>think that through. Because when you like when you had

0:24:45.767 --> 0:24:50.087
<v Speaker 1>this fogginess and a shock, We're not meant to be

0:24:50.127 --> 0:24:53.247
<v Speaker 1>able to make those really big decisions. We're expected to,

0:24:53.367 --> 0:24:57.967
<v Speaker 1>but we're not supposed to. I don't think. And I

0:24:58.167 --> 0:25:01.727
<v Speaker 1>had a conversation recently with one of the judges of

0:25:01.807 --> 0:25:05.007
<v Speaker 1>the Federal Circuit Court and he says the same thing.

0:25:05.047 --> 0:25:07.807
<v Speaker 1>You know, I'm seeing people come through this system that

0:25:08.207 --> 0:25:11.687
<v Speaker 1>their early day of separation and having to make these

0:25:11.767 --> 0:25:14.807
<v Speaker 1>really big life decisions when they kind of inn sea

0:25:14.887 --> 0:25:18.447
<v Speaker 1>for it to the future. Yeah, absolutely so, I you know,

0:25:18.487 --> 0:25:19.567
<v Speaker 1>I wouldn't do that again.

0:25:19.727 --> 0:25:24.527
<v Speaker 2>And is that partly because involving the lawyers at that

0:25:24.607 --> 0:25:27.247
<v Speaker 2>point it escalates everything? Is that what it is? It

0:25:27.327 --> 0:25:32.127
<v Speaker 2>kind of it escalates everything and accelerates it. Is that

0:25:32.567 --> 0:25:35.447
<v Speaker 2>partly why? And sort of before you've really had time

0:25:35.967 --> 0:25:38.447
<v Speaker 2>to let things settle and see what you want, what's

0:25:38.487 --> 0:25:41.487
<v Speaker 2>best for you, the kids, what he wants, I guess,

0:25:41.527 --> 0:25:43.167
<v Speaker 2>although I don't care what he wants at this point,

0:25:43.167 --> 0:25:45.447
<v Speaker 2>which is because I'm in your stage of shock. I'm

0:25:45.447 --> 0:25:50.087
<v Speaker 2>sure I'll get there. But is that why? Is it?

0:25:50.127 --> 0:25:52.087
<v Speaker 2>Because it just escalates everything.

0:25:52.247 --> 0:25:54.327
<v Speaker 1>It does, and what it does it actually takes it

0:25:54.407 --> 0:25:58.207
<v Speaker 1>a little bit out of your control, because the lawyers

0:25:58.407 --> 0:26:02.847
<v Speaker 1>are there to give you advice on what the law says.

0:26:02.967 --> 0:26:06.687
<v Speaker 1>Basically that's their only job. They're not there to be

0:26:06.767 --> 0:26:10.807
<v Speaker 1>your emotional support person. And doesn't mean they don't care,

0:26:11.647 --> 0:26:15.167
<v Speaker 1>but that's not their role. So their role is okay,

0:26:15.207 --> 0:26:17.087
<v Speaker 1>So we're there now, we're out there and where it's

0:26:17.127 --> 0:26:19.647
<v Speaker 1>a business decision and we're trying to carve up assets

0:26:19.687 --> 0:26:22.847
<v Speaker 1>and liabilities and we're trying to put the kids in

0:26:22.847 --> 0:26:24.807
<v Speaker 1>this little box and how much time are they going

0:26:24.847 --> 0:26:26.287
<v Speaker 1>to spend with mum and how much time are they

0:26:26.327 --> 0:26:28.967
<v Speaker 1>going to spend with dad? And all of a sudden,

0:26:29.007 --> 0:26:33.407
<v Speaker 1>it's just like really quick. So as much as I

0:26:33.447 --> 0:26:39.047
<v Speaker 1>wanted it over with, I probably should have given myself

0:26:39.567 --> 0:26:41.567
<v Speaker 1>a lot more time than what I actually did.

0:26:42.167 --> 0:26:46.687
<v Speaker 2>Can I ask you about the kids? So the four

0:26:46.727 --> 0:26:51.727
<v Speaker 2>am screaming phone call and the new processing that, how

0:26:51.767 --> 0:26:53.607
<v Speaker 2>did you talk to the kids about what had happened

0:26:53.647 --> 0:26:56.887
<v Speaker 2>when you after this point? And did you get that right?

0:26:56.967 --> 0:26:59.647
<v Speaker 2>Do you think? And are their lessons to be there?

0:27:00.127 --> 0:27:02.127
<v Speaker 2>How did you handle it? And did you do it together?

0:27:02.407 --> 0:27:02.767
<v Speaker 1>We did?

0:27:03.527 --> 0:27:07.687
<v Speaker 2>That's impressive considering the amount of betrayal you must have

0:27:07.767 --> 0:27:08.367
<v Speaker 2>been feeling.

0:27:09.287 --> 0:27:11.807
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I probably burn a wedding photo before having a

0:27:11.887 --> 0:27:18.047
<v Speaker 1>chat with the kids. But actually, yeah I did.

0:27:15.367 --> 0:27:19.927
<v Speaker 2>Did Did you have a bomb fire in the back garden?

0:27:20.727 --> 0:27:23.167
<v Speaker 1>You know, I just did this quite quite wou Bay

0:27:23.287 --> 0:27:25.447
<v Speaker 1>and based ceremonial thing where you just burn the photo

0:27:25.487 --> 0:27:27.127
<v Speaker 1>and you know, get sage, stick a hut in the

0:27:27.167 --> 0:27:31.327
<v Speaker 1>crystals and all the things. That was That was fun.

0:27:32.087 --> 0:27:33.887
<v Speaker 2>Because you do live up there on the North coast.

0:27:35.287 --> 0:27:39.407
<v Speaker 1>On the North Coast, we did tell the kids. One

0:27:39.447 --> 0:27:41.447
<v Speaker 1>of the things that I wanted to make sure we

0:27:41.487 --> 0:27:45.727
<v Speaker 1>did was give them an opportunity to have a conversation.

0:27:46.567 --> 0:27:51.207
<v Speaker 1>And it was one of the worst conversations that I've

0:27:51.207 --> 0:27:53.407
<v Speaker 1>had to prepare for, to be really honest. So what

0:27:53.447 --> 0:27:55.287
<v Speaker 1>do we say, Who's going to talk? Who's going to

0:27:55.287 --> 0:27:58.927
<v Speaker 1>do the talking? And at that point in time when

0:27:58.927 --> 0:28:00.727
<v Speaker 1>we're having a discussion about that, so well, you can

0:28:00.727 --> 0:28:03.367
<v Speaker 1>do the talking you want. This this is your fault,

0:28:03.447 --> 0:28:04.767
<v Speaker 1>this is this is all your fault.

0:28:04.807 --> 0:28:07.167
<v Speaker 2>You tell them how you've screwed me over.

0:28:07.407 --> 0:28:10.647
<v Speaker 1>Go on, Yeah, you do that, But of course that

0:28:10.807 --> 0:28:15.007
<v Speaker 1>wasn't ever going to happen. And we get to, you know,

0:28:15.047 --> 0:28:18.087
<v Speaker 1>bringing them together and they're kind of a bit weird. Well,

0:28:18.127 --> 0:28:19.567
<v Speaker 1>what do we need to come and sit down and

0:28:19.567 --> 0:28:22.087
<v Speaker 1>have a conversation with you. And you know, my middle

0:28:22.207 --> 0:28:25.927
<v Speaker 1>child is like, I've got skating to do. How long

0:28:25.967 --> 0:28:29.207
<v Speaker 1>is this going to take? You know? So it's sitting

0:28:29.247 --> 0:28:33.367
<v Speaker 1>down at the table and then it's I'm waiting for

0:28:33.967 --> 0:28:37.167
<v Speaker 1>him to start the conversation and it just never starts,

0:28:37.247 --> 0:28:39.607
<v Speaker 1>and the kids are kind of looking like gosh, who's died,

0:28:41.007 --> 0:28:43.407
<v Speaker 1>looking across the table at each other. And so then

0:28:43.487 --> 0:28:45.207
<v Speaker 1>it's like, okay, well I've got to step up here,

0:28:45.247 --> 0:28:47.967
<v Speaker 1>so parking everything else, dad, and I've got something to

0:28:48.007 --> 0:28:50.407
<v Speaker 1>talk to you about. Like Dad's going to go and

0:28:50.447 --> 0:28:52.447
<v Speaker 1>stay with you know, Nanny and Poppy for a while.

0:28:52.847 --> 0:28:56.687
<v Speaker 1>And the kids are like, is that it is?

0:28:56.687 --> 0:28:56.807
<v Speaker 2>That?

0:28:56.887 --> 0:29:02.327
<v Speaker 1>It like she's like my middle child is It's like, okay,

0:29:02.367 --> 0:29:04.167
<v Speaker 1>well that's cool. What do we need a family meeting

0:29:04.167 --> 0:29:04.607
<v Speaker 1>about that? For?

0:29:05.167 --> 0:29:05.327
<v Speaker 2>When?

0:29:05.327 --> 0:29:07.967
<v Speaker 1>Do you haven't when you come back dad? And then

0:29:08.007 --> 0:29:12.007
<v Speaker 1>it was like okay, so no, we need to actually

0:29:12.087 --> 0:29:13.767
<v Speaker 1>say it. We need to say it. Yeah.

0:29:13.927 --> 0:29:16.207
<v Speaker 2>So, which is so hard because as a parent, you

0:29:17.207 --> 0:29:20.727
<v Speaker 2>everything is about protecting your kid's feelings and you're like,

0:29:20.887 --> 0:29:25.447
<v Speaker 2>maybe that's an easy way in, but actually they need

0:29:25.487 --> 0:29:26.807
<v Speaker 2>to hear the true.

0:29:26.687 --> 0:29:27.607
<v Speaker 1>Hear the words.

0:29:27.767 --> 0:29:29.047
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So what did you say?

0:29:29.287 --> 0:29:33.607
<v Speaker 1>Dad and I are separating? Yeah? And from then they

0:29:33.647 --> 0:29:37.647
<v Speaker 1>got it. So I was trying to sugarcoat it in

0:29:37.687 --> 0:29:40.487
<v Speaker 1>a way, I guess make it, you know not So,

0:29:42.007 --> 0:29:44.047
<v Speaker 1>I mean I didn't want to have the conversation full stop,

0:29:44.567 --> 0:29:47.927
<v Speaker 1>but we have to say the words to kids because

0:29:47.967 --> 0:29:51.407
<v Speaker 1>otherwise they just don't understand it. Don't mince your words, right, So, yes,

0:29:51.527 --> 0:29:54.407
<v Speaker 1>Dad and I are separating. Dad's going to stay, you know,

0:29:54.527 --> 0:29:56.727
<v Speaker 1>over there for a while, and then we're going to

0:29:56.727 --> 0:29:59.247
<v Speaker 1>figure out what it is it looks like, and it's

0:29:59.727 --> 0:30:02.327
<v Speaker 1>we're still a family. We're still going to try and

0:30:02.367 --> 0:30:06.407
<v Speaker 1>come together. Dad's still Dad, I'm still me. You've got

0:30:06.407 --> 0:30:09.567
<v Speaker 1>the best of both of us. Do you have questions?

0:30:09.327 --> 0:30:12.847
<v Speaker 2>And did they have questions? Or is it too soon?

0:30:13.527 --> 0:30:14.087
<v Speaker 1>Way too soon?

0:30:14.167 --> 0:30:14.407
<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

0:30:14.487 --> 0:30:19.007
<v Speaker 1>They both just scattered in very different directions, and I

0:30:19.047 --> 0:30:22.487
<v Speaker 1>was kind of expecting that to be honest. So then

0:30:22.527 --> 0:30:25.567
<v Speaker 1>it's a you know, then it's just a continued conversation,

0:30:25.927 --> 0:30:28.327
<v Speaker 1>checking in, are you okay? Do you need to ask

0:30:28.407 --> 0:30:31.767
<v Speaker 1>me anything? And some of the things that they they

0:30:31.807 --> 0:30:34.807
<v Speaker 1>want to know is do we have to move? We

0:30:35.167 --> 0:30:36.847
<v Speaker 1>are we going to live somewhere else? Yeah?

0:30:36.887 --> 0:30:38.767
<v Speaker 2>How much it's going to affect that day to day.

0:30:38.847 --> 0:30:42.287
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and that's really valid. Yeah, of course, because that's

0:30:42.327 --> 0:30:45.967
<v Speaker 1>their safety net. You know, that community is their safety net.

0:30:46.007 --> 0:30:48.647
<v Speaker 1>Their home is their their kids, you know, their their

0:30:48.647 --> 0:30:51.807
<v Speaker 1>friendship groups are there, their school is there, so of

0:30:51.847 --> 0:30:53.847
<v Speaker 1>course that they want to know what is the impact

0:30:53.927 --> 0:30:58.727
<v Speaker 1>going to be for them. So it's just recognizing And

0:30:58.807 --> 0:31:01.127
<v Speaker 1>I didn't really have a plan forward of what that

0:31:01.207 --> 0:31:03.767
<v Speaker 1>looked like at that time, so we kind of figured

0:31:04.447 --> 0:31:10.167
<v Speaker 1>that out together. But after I told the kids, I

0:31:10.207 --> 0:31:12.407
<v Speaker 1>then kind of just fell apart. To be honest, it

0:31:12.487 --> 0:31:16.567
<v Speaker 1>was I can't. I didn't feel like I could hold

0:31:16.607 --> 0:31:20.967
<v Speaker 1>it all together. And I stopped eating, not because I

0:31:21.447 --> 0:31:24.247
<v Speaker 1>because I didn't that I wanted to. I just I

0:31:24.407 --> 0:31:28.087
<v Speaker 1>had no hunger anymore. And that's a really I hear

0:31:28.127 --> 0:31:30.727
<v Speaker 1>that a lot like people to stop eating, and I

0:31:30.767 --> 0:31:33.327
<v Speaker 1>didn't realize I was doing it until my youngest said

0:31:33.367 --> 0:31:35.167
<v Speaker 1>to me, I'm not eating anymore until I see you

0:31:35.167 --> 0:31:38.167
<v Speaker 1>put food in your mouth. Oh I'm like, oh wow,

0:31:39.287 --> 0:31:42.807
<v Speaker 1>And that was that was heart wrenching for me to

0:31:42.847 --> 0:31:45.687
<v Speaker 1>hear her say that to me, And at the moment,

0:31:45.727 --> 0:31:49.767
<v Speaker 1>I'll never forget. And I felt like I'd let her

0:31:49.847 --> 0:31:53.727
<v Speaker 1>down because what sort of a role model was I being.

0:31:53.767 --> 0:31:56.207
<v Speaker 1>I'm asking them to be brave, I'm asking them to

0:31:57.207 --> 0:32:00.487
<v Speaker 1>you know, fall into this new way of life. Yet

0:32:00.527 --> 0:32:04.407
<v Speaker 1>here I am just you know, losing my shit over

0:32:04.447 --> 0:32:05.407
<v Speaker 1>in the corner, right.

0:32:05.807 --> 0:32:07.487
<v Speaker 2>I know. But NICKI and I know, I'm sure you

0:32:07.607 --> 0:32:09.807
<v Speaker 2>know this now, but that just makes me want to

0:32:09.807 --> 0:32:13.207
<v Speaker 2>give you a hug because you were going through something

0:32:13.407 --> 0:32:17.287
<v Speaker 2>enormous And this is what's so hard is you've got

0:32:17.287 --> 0:32:19.887
<v Speaker 2>to keep it together and inverted commas for your kids.

0:32:19.927 --> 0:32:23.327
<v Speaker 2>But that's actually impossible. And I know that some people say, well,

0:32:23.327 --> 0:32:25.687
<v Speaker 2>it's very important for your kids to see you fall

0:32:25.727 --> 0:32:29.727
<v Speaker 2>apart and put yourself back together again and struggling and things,

0:32:29.767 --> 0:32:33.247
<v Speaker 2>but we all know that that's also very hard for

0:32:33.287 --> 0:32:35.607
<v Speaker 2>them to see you struggling. So it's just you're in

0:32:35.647 --> 0:32:36.887
<v Speaker 2>a very difficult situation.

0:32:37.087 --> 0:32:39.247
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And how much of that do they need to see?

0:32:39.247 --> 0:32:42.327
<v Speaker 2>Holly? Like, what did you land with all that? Were

0:32:42.367 --> 0:32:45.567
<v Speaker 2>you even though they were picking up because they're like, Mum,

0:32:45.607 --> 0:32:48.167
<v Speaker 2>isn't even eating? Were you pretending everything was fine on

0:32:48.247 --> 0:32:51.127
<v Speaker 2>the outside, like hi, darlings, it's dinner time? Or were

0:32:51.167 --> 0:32:53.327
<v Speaker 2>you we were kind.

0:32:53.127 --> 0:32:56.967
<v Speaker 1>Of I you know, I would I'd get them off

0:32:56.967 --> 0:33:00.687
<v Speaker 1>to school, and you know, we everything kind of just

0:33:01.727 --> 0:33:05.367
<v Speaker 1>stayed the same. Really. It was I'd cook the meals

0:33:05.487 --> 0:33:07.727
<v Speaker 1>and sit down and I'd push the food around on

0:33:07.727 --> 0:33:11.767
<v Speaker 1>my plate. And there was times there where I was like, no,

0:33:11.847 --> 0:33:14.447
<v Speaker 1>we're going to come together as a family. And he'd

0:33:14.487 --> 0:33:18.047
<v Speaker 1>come back sometimes every fortnight for Sunday night dinner, and

0:33:18.567 --> 0:33:20.927
<v Speaker 1>I was really conscious that that's what I wanted to

0:33:21.647 --> 0:33:24.927
<v Speaker 1>do for them. And that didn't last very long because

0:33:24.927 --> 0:33:28.367
<v Speaker 1>it was so awkward, Like it was, the idea was

0:33:28.367 --> 0:33:30.327
<v Speaker 1>a great idea. It seems like it seems like a

0:33:30.327 --> 0:33:34.927
<v Speaker 1>good idea at the time, but it wasn't. So yeah,

0:33:35.007 --> 0:33:39.687
<v Speaker 1>everything just kind of ticked along really until it wasn't.

0:33:40.287 --> 0:33:42.927
<v Speaker 1>And I didn't realize that I was just I was

0:33:42.967 --> 0:33:44.687
<v Speaker 1>just putting one foot in front of the other and

0:33:44.687 --> 0:33:48.727
<v Speaker 1>that's all I was doing. And moments of where you

0:33:48.767 --> 0:33:51.487
<v Speaker 1>want to break down, you know, there'd be times you

0:33:51.567 --> 0:33:55.927
<v Speaker 1>cooking dinner and the kitchen and the tears are streaming

0:33:56.007 --> 0:33:58.247
<v Speaker 1>and you can't stop those because once those you know,

0:33:58.287 --> 0:34:00.687
<v Speaker 1>those big tears start to flow and they're really hard

0:34:00.727 --> 0:34:03.647
<v Speaker 1>to stop. So it's just like, oh, I'm really sweaty,

0:34:03.647 --> 0:34:05.047
<v Speaker 1>I'm just going to go on have a shower, So

0:34:05.087 --> 0:34:06.767
<v Speaker 1>you jump in the shower and you'd have a little

0:34:06.767 --> 0:34:08.487
<v Speaker 1>bit more of a cry and then you pop back

0:34:08.487 --> 0:34:10.927
<v Speaker 1>out and just don't let the past to burn. And

0:34:11.527 --> 0:34:15.807
<v Speaker 1>you know, and it's some days I look at it

0:34:15.847 --> 0:34:17.527
<v Speaker 1>and go, gosh, I don't even know how I got

0:34:17.647 --> 0:34:19.447
<v Speaker 1>got through that, but I did.

0:34:19.927 --> 0:34:25.287
<v Speaker 2>And was there a moment, a turning point or that

0:34:25.327 --> 0:34:29.047
<v Speaker 2>you can see that you began to come out of

0:34:29.087 --> 0:34:31.367
<v Speaker 2>that a little bit and look around.

0:34:31.927 --> 0:34:36.247
<v Speaker 1>Probably the moment where my youngest said to me, yeah,

0:34:36.447 --> 0:34:40.127
<v Speaker 1>because that was really confronting. And I had lost a

0:34:40.247 --> 0:34:41.247
<v Speaker 1>lot of weight.

0:34:42.727 --> 0:34:45.447
<v Speaker 2>So you were lost, looking really frail, really frail.

0:34:45.527 --> 0:34:47.807
<v Speaker 1>I was looking really sick. I then got w hooping

0:34:47.887 --> 0:34:51.567
<v Speaker 1>cough and it's you know, your body, your body is

0:34:51.647 --> 0:34:54.127
<v Speaker 1>just it's going to if you don't stop and try

0:34:54.167 --> 0:34:57.127
<v Speaker 1>and you know, heal yourself. Something's got to give and

0:34:57.207 --> 0:34:57.527
<v Speaker 1>it does.

0:34:57.807 --> 0:35:01.487
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, absolutely, yeah, So what did you do to try?

0:35:01.567 --> 0:35:03.567
<v Speaker 2>And when you when you were realized, you were at

0:35:03.567 --> 0:35:06.807
<v Speaker 2>that point where you're like, okay, this isn't going well.

0:35:07.287 --> 0:35:11.447
<v Speaker 2>I'm literally breaking down, like my what is Something's got

0:35:11.487 --> 0:35:13.127
<v Speaker 2>to change? What changed?

0:35:14.047 --> 0:35:19.287
<v Speaker 1>Mindset? Mindset changed, and it's like, okay, this has happened

0:35:20.047 --> 0:35:23.647
<v Speaker 1>and I need to move forward. So it's like, all right,

0:35:23.727 --> 0:35:26.247
<v Speaker 1>so what do we need as a family. I moved

0:35:26.247 --> 0:35:30.847
<v Speaker 1>the kids to the beach and moved house. Yep. It's

0:35:30.887 --> 0:35:33.247
<v Speaker 1>like I can't stay in the house that I'm in anymore.

0:35:33.287 --> 0:35:36.567
<v Speaker 1>There's too many memories here. Moved house, moved to the beach.

0:35:37.127 --> 0:35:39.567
<v Speaker 1>I got in the ocean every day, rain, hail, or

0:35:39.607 --> 0:35:44.247
<v Speaker 1>shine for three hundred and sixty five days, every morning

0:35:44.567 --> 0:35:49.687
<v Speaker 1>and every afternoon, and that became my therapy. I would

0:35:49.767 --> 0:35:55.207
<v Speaker 1>walk down barefoot, cup of tea in hand, immerse myself

0:35:55.247 --> 0:35:58.447
<v Speaker 1>in the you know, really dig my feet into the sand.

0:35:58.567 --> 0:36:02.327
<v Speaker 1>So it was just really grounding and throwing myself in

0:36:02.687 --> 0:36:07.727
<v Speaker 1>and no wetsuit. Winter was just a swim suits like

0:36:07.927 --> 0:36:12.727
<v Speaker 1>it's freezing, but you've commuted to that. So that therapy

0:36:13.207 --> 0:36:17.527
<v Speaker 1>really looking after myself instead of trying to sabotage myself

0:36:18.127 --> 0:36:21.567
<v Speaker 1>because I was thinking, gosh, you know, I felt betrayed.

0:36:21.727 --> 0:36:26.007
<v Speaker 1>I felt like I'd failed, I felt shame, I felt embarrassed.

0:36:26.047 --> 0:36:29.207
<v Speaker 1>I felt this, you know that I never wanted to

0:36:29.247 --> 0:36:32.287
<v Speaker 1>go back out into that community again. And I felt

0:36:32.287 --> 0:36:35.447
<v Speaker 1>like every time I walked out there, somebody was looking

0:36:35.487 --> 0:36:38.127
<v Speaker 1>at me. They weren't, of course, but I felt like

0:36:38.207 --> 0:36:43.567
<v Speaker 1>I couldn't live in the space that I'd created, So

0:36:45.007 --> 0:36:46.727
<v Speaker 1>it was just reframing all of that.

0:36:46.967 --> 0:36:50.767
<v Speaker 2>Was the place you moved to, still within the same community,

0:36:50.887 --> 0:36:53.287
<v Speaker 2>just closer to the ocean, to the water. Yeah, and

0:36:54.087 --> 0:36:56.447
<v Speaker 2>just in terms of that for a moment, because it's

0:36:56.447 --> 0:36:59.767
<v Speaker 2>a very common experience that you know, families, We do

0:36:59.847 --> 0:37:02.207
<v Speaker 2>live in communities, of course, and everybody knows each other

0:37:02.207 --> 0:37:05.287
<v Speaker 2>to a point, and it is gossip at the schoolgate.

0:37:05.727 --> 0:37:08.487
<v Speaker 2>It definitely, there's no getting around that. It is gossip

0:37:08.567 --> 0:37:12.087
<v Speaker 2>at the school gate for a while, and particularly if

0:37:12.087 --> 0:37:14.207
<v Speaker 2>it's an affair and did you know it was this,

0:37:14.367 --> 0:37:17.207
<v Speaker 2>it's like it's for other people, it's the TV show

0:37:17.247 --> 0:37:21.287
<v Speaker 2>for a little while. Yeah, how do you get through

0:37:21.367 --> 0:37:23.167
<v Speaker 2>that part of it? You know, the part of it

0:37:23.207 --> 0:37:25.447
<v Speaker 2>because they will all move on and you know, they've

0:37:25.487 --> 0:37:27.447
<v Speaker 2>all got their own shit going on in their own houses.

0:37:27.447 --> 0:37:30.807
<v Speaker 2>But do you have advice for how to get through

0:37:30.847 --> 0:37:33.527
<v Speaker 2>that part, like that part where you do feel like

0:37:33.607 --> 0:37:35.727
<v Speaker 2>everybody's talking about you and they might be for a

0:37:35.727 --> 0:37:36.207
<v Speaker 2>little while.

0:37:36.287 --> 0:37:38.447
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and you know what they will be, Yeah, yeah,

0:37:38.487 --> 0:37:40.847
<v Speaker 1>they will be because, as you say, it is gossip

0:37:40.967 --> 0:37:45.607
<v Speaker 1>and it's people love to talk about other people because

0:37:46.007 --> 0:37:49.647
<v Speaker 1>often things aren't going very well in their right. So

0:37:49.727 --> 0:37:52.447
<v Speaker 1>what I would say to people is, and we like

0:37:52.487 --> 0:37:54.447
<v Speaker 1>our stories to be simple, like we like it to

0:37:54.487 --> 0:37:57.527
<v Speaker 1>be very like black and white about what happened and whose.

0:37:57.247 --> 0:38:00.127
<v Speaker 2>Fault it was, and that's that. And you know, it's

0:38:00.207 --> 0:38:03.287
<v Speaker 2>sort of a yeah, it's unsatisfying, really, isn't it?

0:38:03.327 --> 0:38:06.087
<v Speaker 1>Oh? It really is? But I mean, to be honest,

0:38:06.127 --> 0:38:08.487
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I've got to take responsibility for some of

0:38:08.527 --> 0:38:10.927
<v Speaker 1>the things in in our marriage that weren't perfect either,

0:38:11.087 --> 0:38:15.607
<v Speaker 1>Like I certainly don't tell this story and hold no

0:38:15.687 --> 0:38:18.407
<v Speaker 1>fault in that. Yeah, of course. But what I would

0:38:18.487 --> 0:38:22.047
<v Speaker 1>say to people is the gossip says more about them

0:38:22.087 --> 0:38:25.607
<v Speaker 1>than it does about you. It will go away and

0:38:25.967 --> 0:38:29.287
<v Speaker 1>you might be top of mind for a couple of weeks,

0:38:30.007 --> 0:38:32.087
<v Speaker 1>but they're going to forget about that, and they're going

0:38:32.127 --> 0:38:36.087
<v Speaker 1>to start to talk about someone else. Be brave. Be brave,

0:38:36.327 --> 0:38:42.167
<v Speaker 1>and by saying that, feel good about yourself, whatever that

0:38:42.247 --> 0:38:45.207
<v Speaker 1>looks and feels like for you, there's moments of joy

0:38:45.207 --> 0:38:49.007
<v Speaker 1>that you're going to capture in times throughout the day.

0:38:49.847 --> 0:38:54.887
<v Speaker 1>Really go with that instead of sinking into the story

0:38:55.487 --> 0:38:59.967
<v Speaker 1>and being caught in that loop of that story continuously,

0:39:00.047 --> 0:39:02.527
<v Speaker 1>because that loop will go on for as long as

0:39:02.567 --> 0:39:03.447
<v Speaker 1>you will allow it to.

0:39:03.807 --> 0:39:08.287
<v Speaker 2>So you mean, for example, if the story is and

0:39:08.327 --> 0:39:10.247
<v Speaker 2>as you said, this is not what you're saying at all.

0:39:10.287 --> 0:39:12.807
<v Speaker 2>But if the story is I was a good wife,

0:39:12.807 --> 0:39:15.407
<v Speaker 2>I was building a good life and he screwed me

0:39:15.447 --> 0:39:18.327
<v Speaker 2>over and he's ruined everything and he's a monster and

0:39:18.367 --> 0:39:20.167
<v Speaker 2>nothing's ever going to be good in my life again,

0:39:20.807 --> 0:39:23.047
<v Speaker 2>and I can't trust anybody, And that is the loop

0:39:23.087 --> 0:39:25.887
<v Speaker 2>that goes round and round. Is there a place for

0:39:26.847 --> 0:39:29.207
<v Speaker 2>letting yourself sink into that story for a little while

0:39:29.247 --> 0:39:32.487
<v Speaker 2>before you start unpicking it or do you know what

0:39:32.487 --> 0:39:32.727
<v Speaker 2>I mean?

0:39:32.807 --> 0:39:35.207
<v Speaker 1>Like definitely, yes, yeah, because I think you have to

0:39:35.207 --> 0:39:37.767
<v Speaker 1>acknowledge that, and if you don't sit in it, then

0:39:37.767 --> 0:39:41.367
<v Speaker 1>you can't. Were's the acknowledgment And by sitting in it,

0:39:41.447 --> 0:39:44.727
<v Speaker 1>we are really and it's hard to really hard to do.

0:39:44.807 --> 0:39:47.367
<v Speaker 1>It's so easy for me to sit here today on

0:39:47.407 --> 0:39:49.527
<v Speaker 1>the other side of a microphone and say this is

0:39:49.567 --> 0:39:52.407
<v Speaker 1>what you should do, but let's acknowledge how really hard

0:39:52.487 --> 0:39:56.567
<v Speaker 1>that is. And there are moments where you may not

0:39:56.607 --> 0:39:58.367
<v Speaker 1>feel like you want to get out of bed anymore,

0:39:58.687 --> 0:40:02.807
<v Speaker 1>and you may not have the energy to deal with

0:40:03.687 --> 0:40:07.287
<v Speaker 1>life as you knew it, or finances or paying the

0:40:07.287 --> 0:40:10.047
<v Speaker 1>bills or doing the grocery shopping, or cleaning the house

0:40:10.447 --> 0:40:12.167
<v Speaker 1>or taking the dog for a whet to work or

0:40:12.207 --> 0:40:16.007
<v Speaker 1>going to work, any of those things. Allow yourself some

0:40:16.127 --> 0:40:18.927
<v Speaker 1>time to do that, and it is the only way

0:40:19.127 --> 0:40:23.247
<v Speaker 1>to get through is to move through it. But yeah, absolutely,

0:40:23.287 --> 0:40:27.887
<v Speaker 1>sitting the story because it's yours, and then over a

0:40:27.927 --> 0:40:31.287
<v Speaker 1>period of time it becomes part of then who you

0:40:31.367 --> 0:40:34.087
<v Speaker 1>are doesn't have to define you, It just becomes part

0:40:34.167 --> 0:40:36.807
<v Speaker 1>of what that life then looks like for you.

0:40:37.647 --> 0:40:40.487
<v Speaker 2>Because divorce can blow up lives in lots of ways, right,

0:40:40.567 --> 0:40:44.647
<v Speaker 2>and one of those ways is financially because if suddenly

0:40:44.727 --> 0:40:47.127
<v Speaker 2>your circumstances of life have to shift because you can't

0:40:47.127 --> 0:40:49.167
<v Speaker 2>afford to live where you were living when you were together,

0:40:49.767 --> 0:40:52.887
<v Speaker 2>if you know you've got to take on more work

0:40:52.967 --> 0:40:54.687
<v Speaker 2>or go back to work to a job you didn't like,

0:40:54.767 --> 0:40:57.007
<v Speaker 2>or a million different things, or suddenly you can't pay

0:40:57.007 --> 0:41:00.007
<v Speaker 2>for things, and maybe you're not getting this that there

0:41:00.007 --> 0:41:01.927
<v Speaker 2>are a lot of very practical things as well as

0:41:01.967 --> 0:41:04.287
<v Speaker 2>the emotional things, right that can also keep you in

0:41:04.327 --> 0:41:07.087
<v Speaker 2>a loop of fury in a way.

0:41:07.287 --> 0:41:14.407
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, financial fear and scarcity is really

0:41:14.807 --> 0:41:18.927
<v Speaker 1>really hard for women in particular. Often there is one

0:41:18.967 --> 0:41:22.687
<v Speaker 1>person in a marriage or a relationship that deals with

0:41:22.727 --> 0:41:28.927
<v Speaker 1>the finances, and by default it's often men generally, not always,

0:41:28.967 --> 0:41:33.367
<v Speaker 1>but you know in it usually is from what I see,

0:41:34.407 --> 0:41:38.607
<v Speaker 1>and that's really hard because you not only do you

0:41:38.727 --> 0:41:43.567
<v Speaker 1>have my life is falling apart, It's like how am

0:41:43.567 --> 0:41:46.967
<v Speaker 1>I actually going to survive? How am I going to

0:41:47.047 --> 0:41:47.767
<v Speaker 1>keep the lights on?

0:41:48.847 --> 0:41:52.527
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely? And those are questions you've got to figure out, yeah,

0:41:52.927 --> 0:41:54.087
<v Speaker 2>answers to they are.

0:41:54.647 --> 0:41:58.287
<v Speaker 1>And I think there's two things that often happen in

0:41:59.807 --> 0:42:03.807
<v Speaker 1>high conflict family law situations is that kids and money

0:42:03.847 --> 0:42:08.007
<v Speaker 1>gets weaponized and one will withhold the other until the other.

0:42:08.487 --> 0:42:11.527
<v Speaker 1>You know, kids are withheld until the money comes and

0:42:11.647 --> 0:42:15.607
<v Speaker 1>vice versa. And it's ugly, and that's the ugliest of ugly,

0:42:15.727 --> 0:42:18.327
<v Speaker 1>right So, but it happens, and it still happens. And

0:42:18.367 --> 0:42:20.127
<v Speaker 1>I know that we've got this movement that we are

0:42:20.167 --> 0:42:23.087
<v Speaker 1>trying to get away from that, but still to this

0:42:23.207 --> 0:42:26.767
<v Speaker 1>day it happens. And things that I often say to

0:42:26.847 --> 0:42:31.047
<v Speaker 1>women is know your finances, Know what it costs to

0:42:31.167 --> 0:42:34.247
<v Speaker 1>keep the lights on. You have to understand that, whether

0:42:34.287 --> 0:42:36.247
<v Speaker 1>you want to or not, you've got to do it.

0:42:36.927 --> 0:42:39.967
<v Speaker 1>So even if you're not going through a hard time

0:42:40.007 --> 0:42:42.127
<v Speaker 1>in your marriage or relationship, know.

0:42:42.167 --> 0:42:48.527
<v Speaker 2>That, yeah, absolutely arm yourself for that. After this shortbreak,

0:42:48.647 --> 0:42:52.087
<v Speaker 2>Nikki tells me how she transformed her experience into the

0:42:52.127 --> 0:42:54.647
<v Speaker 2>really meaningful work she does now, which is help other

0:42:54.687 --> 0:42:58.367
<v Speaker 2>women navigate divorce and separation. And she's going to share

0:42:58.407 --> 0:43:05.287
<v Speaker 2>her very best advice. So I want to talk to

0:43:05.327 --> 0:43:08.687
<v Speaker 2>you about the point where you move from you know,

0:43:08.807 --> 0:43:12.927
<v Speaker 2>dealing with literally your life being entirely upended, and you're

0:43:12.927 --> 0:43:15.167
<v Speaker 2>putting yourself back together, you're swimming in the ocean and

0:43:15.207 --> 0:43:17.847
<v Speaker 2>you're getting grounded. How do we move to a place

0:43:17.847 --> 0:43:20.007
<v Speaker 2>where you're like, what I want to do is fill

0:43:20.047 --> 0:43:23.327
<v Speaker 2>this gap that I felt in helping women through this,

0:43:23.447 --> 0:43:26.327
<v Speaker 2>and I'm going to make this my life's work. Like

0:43:26.927 --> 0:43:28.607
<v Speaker 2>what happened? How did that come about?

0:43:29.287 --> 0:43:35.687
<v Speaker 1>I always had a My nature is to support and

0:43:35.727 --> 0:43:39.407
<v Speaker 1>guide and help people. That's that's who I am and

0:43:39.927 --> 0:43:40.447
<v Speaker 1>when I.

0:43:40.327 --> 0:43:42.847
<v Speaker 2>Was a very you have a lovely energy about that.

0:43:43.127 --> 0:43:44.967
<v Speaker 2>This is obviously the first time I've met you, but

0:43:45.047 --> 0:43:48.167
<v Speaker 2>I can see exactly how that would how you would

0:43:48.167 --> 0:43:51.607
<v Speaker 2>be a very reassuring presence to somebody in that situation.

0:43:51.967 --> 0:43:57.047
<v Speaker 1>Thank you. But even when I was working in family law.

0:43:57.287 --> 0:43:58.847
<v Speaker 1>It was I was always in I was the one

0:43:58.887 --> 0:44:01.487
<v Speaker 1>that was always in trouble because it was never meeting

0:44:01.487 --> 0:44:05.487
<v Speaker 1>the billable hours because I couldn't charge people for you know,

0:44:05.527 --> 0:44:06.647
<v Speaker 1>the things that they needed.

0:44:06.687 --> 0:44:08.047
<v Speaker 2>And so it was great lawyer.

0:44:08.047 --> 0:44:10.927
<v Speaker 1>Then no, no, I didn't make anyone any money, that's

0:44:10.967 --> 0:44:13.967
<v Speaker 1>for sure. So it was just just and then when

0:44:14.007 --> 0:44:17.047
<v Speaker 1>this happened, it's just like, oh, this is what I

0:44:17.127 --> 0:44:19.407
<v Speaker 1>need to do, you know. It was just it's almost

0:44:19.487 --> 0:44:23.607
<v Speaker 1>like this light bulb moment. And I started coaching with

0:44:23.687 --> 0:44:27.327
<v Speaker 1>Kim McGinnis and she had said and it wasn't about

0:44:27.567 --> 0:44:30.447
<v Speaker 1>divorce coaching at that stage, and she's like, well, what

0:44:30.887 --> 0:44:33.567
<v Speaker 1>is it that you want to do with career? And

0:44:34.647 --> 0:44:37.247
<v Speaker 1>you've got this golden opportunity now that you can choose

0:44:37.287 --> 0:44:39.407
<v Speaker 1>to do. You can go back and work in the

0:44:39.807 --> 0:44:42.407
<v Speaker 1>system if that's what you want, which was never going

0:44:42.447 --> 0:44:46.767
<v Speaker 1>to happen. But I'm like, I can help people get

0:44:46.807 --> 0:44:49.407
<v Speaker 1>through this. She just did, and there's your answer. So

0:44:49.447 --> 0:44:53.247
<v Speaker 1>we just started to map out this pathway that people

0:44:53.247 --> 0:44:57.007
<v Speaker 1>could then start to take and understanding where the acute

0:44:57.047 --> 0:44:59.687
<v Speaker 1>times were, what did you or how do you get

0:44:59.807 --> 0:45:02.847
<v Speaker 1>through that? And then what is it that you need next,

0:45:03.247 --> 0:45:06.927
<v Speaker 1>and putting all of those stringing all of those things together,

0:45:07.047 --> 0:45:10.167
<v Speaker 1>so like your self care and your children, your finances

0:45:10.207 --> 0:45:13.127
<v Speaker 1>and your legals, and your nutrition and your health and

0:45:13.167 --> 0:45:17.487
<v Speaker 1>your fitness, and just stringing all of that together and going, Okay,

0:45:17.607 --> 0:45:20.047
<v Speaker 1>how do we look at this as a whole person

0:45:20.527 --> 0:45:23.847
<v Speaker 1>rather than just ship my marriages over. I need to

0:45:23.847 --> 0:45:25.287
<v Speaker 1>get a lawyer, and I need to get a divorce,

0:45:25.327 --> 0:45:26.847
<v Speaker 1>and I need to sort out my property and my

0:45:26.967 --> 0:45:31.687
<v Speaker 1>kids the end, goodbye. So it started to, you know,

0:45:32.047 --> 0:45:34.367
<v Speaker 1>think about that, and then I did a bit more training,

0:45:34.407 --> 0:45:38.127
<v Speaker 1>and I did some high conflict training, and I just

0:45:38.207 --> 0:45:40.647
<v Speaker 1>threw it out there and I thought, well, you know what,

0:45:40.927 --> 0:45:46.167
<v Speaker 1>either worker, it won't and it's been the best thing

0:45:46.207 --> 0:45:50.567
<v Speaker 1>that could have happened for me. How'd I have stayed

0:45:50.807 --> 0:45:54.327
<v Speaker 1>in the marriage? There is no I can safely say

0:45:54.367 --> 0:45:56.647
<v Speaker 1>that I wouldn't be doing the work that I'm doing now.

0:45:56.767 --> 0:45:58.447
<v Speaker 2>That you obviously find very fulfilling.

0:45:58.607 --> 0:46:02.207
<v Speaker 1>I love it, I absolutely love it, and it's so

0:46:03.447 --> 0:46:07.807
<v Speaker 1>it's such a beautiful feeling for me to then have

0:46:07.967 --> 0:46:12.887
<v Speaker 1>somebody that can come to me trust that. One. I

0:46:12.967 --> 0:46:15.887
<v Speaker 1>have the practical side of things, I have the professional

0:46:15.927 --> 0:46:18.767
<v Speaker 1>side of but I've also have the personal side where

0:46:18.807 --> 0:46:22.287
<v Speaker 1>I can go. I know exactly where you're at, and

0:46:22.327 --> 0:46:25.367
<v Speaker 1>I know that it feels like it is not going

0:46:25.407 --> 0:46:27.767
<v Speaker 1>to get any better. But I'm going here to tell

0:46:27.807 --> 0:46:30.967
<v Speaker 1>you that. Come back to me in a little while,

0:46:31.087 --> 0:46:33.287
<v Speaker 1>and I will guarantee you that you're going to feel

0:46:33.327 --> 0:46:35.247
<v Speaker 1>a whole different person in time.

0:46:35.047 --> 0:46:37.767
<v Speaker 2>To come tell me. I mean, obviously you've got a

0:46:37.807 --> 0:46:40.607
<v Speaker 2>whole program and course around this, and you've got your

0:46:40.647 --> 0:46:42.127
<v Speaker 2>own podcast, and we'll link to all those in the

0:46:42.127 --> 0:46:44.967
<v Speaker 2>show notes. But you said before, like a couple of

0:46:45.007 --> 0:46:48.447
<v Speaker 2>really helpful tips to people who might be listening to

0:46:48.447 --> 0:46:51.767
<v Speaker 2>this who are finding themselves where you were. You mentioned

0:46:51.767 --> 0:46:55.247
<v Speaker 2>before about communication. Do you have anything else that you

0:46:55.367 --> 0:46:57.327
<v Speaker 2>just think of? The golden rules that we get wrong

0:46:57.567 --> 0:47:02.367
<v Speaker 2>in this moment of crisis. Definitely communication, So sit on

0:47:02.407 --> 0:47:05.247
<v Speaker 2>the communication on the cause. Your advice to write that

0:47:05.367 --> 0:47:08.767
<v Speaker 2>email that you wrote that you were senting but not

0:47:08.927 --> 0:47:10.607
<v Speaker 2>send is that the advice.

0:47:10.687 --> 0:47:14.007
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely write the email, but don't write it in your

0:47:14.047 --> 0:47:16.847
<v Speaker 1>actual email, because you know chances are that you might

0:47:16.887 --> 0:47:19.887
<v Speaker 1>just accidentally hits end on that. Write it out in

0:47:19.927 --> 0:47:22.327
<v Speaker 1>your notes, your journal, whatever that looks like for you,

0:47:22.407 --> 0:47:24.567
<v Speaker 1>however you want to do that, write it out, but

0:47:24.647 --> 0:47:27.207
<v Speaker 1>write it out exactly as you want to say it,

0:47:27.567 --> 0:47:29.447
<v Speaker 1>and then you can go back and look at that

0:47:29.567 --> 0:47:32.687
<v Speaker 1>twenty four hours. At the very least, nothing needs to

0:47:32.727 --> 0:47:35.287
<v Speaker 1>happen before then. Nothing is the emergency that needs to

0:47:35.327 --> 0:47:38.127
<v Speaker 1>happen before then, and give yourself the gift of time

0:47:38.167 --> 0:47:40.847
<v Speaker 1>to do it. Then reframe it and what I there's

0:47:40.847 --> 0:47:43.807
<v Speaker 1>some really great tips from a man called Bill Eddie

0:47:43.807 --> 0:47:46.087
<v Speaker 1>and he calls it the Biff method, and it's called

0:47:46.127 --> 0:47:49.607
<v Speaker 1>brief informative, friendly infirm. So when you write your email,

0:47:49.807 --> 0:47:52.847
<v Speaker 1>you keep it brief. So two topics at.

0:47:53.127 --> 0:47:56.007
<v Speaker 2>Minimum, we need to we're doing for the school.

0:47:55.727 --> 0:47:59.287
<v Speaker 1>Holidays, yes, the end informative this.

0:47:59.167 --> 0:48:01.087
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to be taking the kids to nanas at

0:48:01.087 --> 0:48:02.887
<v Speaker 2>blah on this date yep, yep.

0:48:03.047 --> 0:48:04.927
<v Speaker 1>And this is when I propose that the kids come

0:48:04.967 --> 0:48:07.927
<v Speaker 1>to you. And then friendly. So the friendly is just

0:48:08.007 --> 0:48:11.367
<v Speaker 1>the high and the buy and firm is that you

0:48:11.407 --> 0:48:14.727
<v Speaker 1>give a deadline to come back to you with or

0:48:14.927 --> 0:48:18.687
<v Speaker 1>you know, I'd appreciate your response by five pm on

0:48:18.727 --> 0:48:22.727
<v Speaker 1>the fourteenth of October, just to really set that boundary

0:48:22.807 --> 0:48:25.687
<v Speaker 1>that this is what I need, this is what I'm suggesting,

0:48:25.927 --> 0:48:28.407
<v Speaker 1>this is when I need it by and then let's

0:48:28.407 --> 0:48:31.527
<v Speaker 1>have another conversation about that. And I think that you

0:48:31.567 --> 0:48:35.247
<v Speaker 1>can take that forward with you in any anything that

0:48:35.287 --> 0:48:37.567
<v Speaker 1>you do, whether it's acute or whether it is like

0:48:37.647 --> 0:48:40.687
<v Speaker 1>later on in your separation or your divorce. And then

0:48:40.727 --> 0:48:44.047
<v Speaker 1>I think, look after yourself. It's really easy to sit

0:48:44.127 --> 0:48:46.447
<v Speaker 1>there and say look after yourself, and that's really hard

0:48:46.527 --> 0:48:50.487
<v Speaker 1>because you're as a mom, your default is I need

0:48:50.487 --> 0:48:53.687
<v Speaker 1>to look after the kids. But you know, in my experience,

0:48:54.287 --> 0:48:57.127
<v Speaker 1>because I wasn't looking after myself, that was then having

0:48:57.167 --> 0:48:59.927
<v Speaker 1>an impact on my kids that I didn't really know

0:48:59.967 --> 0:49:04.767
<v Speaker 1>that it was. So find something anything, whether it is

0:49:05.287 --> 0:49:07.447
<v Speaker 1>walking out of the room. If you're feeling overwhelmed, you

0:49:07.447 --> 0:49:09.767
<v Speaker 1>can walk out of the room into an other room,

0:49:09.967 --> 0:49:13.407
<v Speaker 1>stay there for five minutes, and come back in again. Outside,

0:49:13.647 --> 0:49:16.047
<v Speaker 1>put your feet on the ground, barefoot, wherever you are.

0:49:16.207 --> 0:49:18.927
<v Speaker 1>Those types of things will immediately give you some grounding.

0:49:19.527 --> 0:49:22.927
<v Speaker 1>And breath is going to be your best friend, breathing

0:49:23.127 --> 0:49:27.767
<v Speaker 1>through those moments of where you feel your nervous system

0:49:27.847 --> 0:49:31.967
<v Speaker 1>starting to just wor and circulate. Breathing through that. And

0:49:32.007 --> 0:49:33.967
<v Speaker 1>we can all do that no matter where we are,

0:49:34.207 --> 0:49:36.007
<v Speaker 1>and no one else needs to know that you're doing it.

0:49:36.567 --> 0:49:38.847
<v Speaker 2>I want to bring you. You know, this is six

0:49:38.927 --> 0:49:41.687
<v Speaker 2>years ago that you were having this you know this email.

0:49:41.847 --> 0:49:44.647
<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry, and I know your life is in a

0:49:44.687 --> 0:49:47.207
<v Speaker 2>very different place in lots of ways. But for you

0:49:47.247 --> 0:49:50.567
<v Speaker 2>and your ex, I know that this year you had

0:49:50.567 --> 0:49:55.047
<v Speaker 2>to survive something very difficult together when your youngest child

0:49:55.487 --> 0:49:57.847
<v Speaker 2>became ill. Can you tell me a bit about that

0:49:58.247 --> 0:50:01.767
<v Speaker 2>and dealing with that in this separated family.

0:50:02.407 --> 0:50:06.087
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So at the beginning of the year, my youngest

0:50:06.247 --> 0:50:10.007
<v Speaker 1>was diagnosed with osteopsychoma, which is a type of bone cancer.

0:50:10.487 --> 0:50:15.807
<v Speaker 1>How old was she eighteen? Yeah, it was the worst

0:50:16.247 --> 0:50:20.767
<v Speaker 1>phone call that I have ever can't received. I was

0:50:21.247 --> 0:50:24.847
<v Speaker 1>in Alice Springs at the time with my eldest daughter,

0:50:25.407 --> 0:50:27.527
<v Speaker 1>and I just knew that something. You know, that phone

0:50:27.527 --> 0:50:32.247
<v Speaker 1>call was he had rung and they've mentioned cancer because

0:50:32.247 --> 0:50:36.367
<v Speaker 1>she basically fell or burnt down and broke her femur.

0:50:36.407 --> 0:50:42.127
<v Speaker 1>And that's how we knew that she had cancer. And

0:50:42.847 --> 0:50:46.767
<v Speaker 1>we then had to find a way to come back

0:50:47.167 --> 0:50:52.887
<v Speaker 1>together and park any and I will say that prior

0:50:52.887 --> 0:50:55.727
<v Speaker 1>to that, we you know, spend birth days together, We

0:50:55.767 --> 0:50:59.807
<v Speaker 1>spend the big occasions together, formals, those things, and we

0:50:59.807 --> 0:51:01.367
<v Speaker 1>we do it reasonably well.

0:51:01.607 --> 0:51:04.767
<v Speaker 2>So you're you're its friendly, it's friendly, and you're.

0:51:07.447 --> 0:51:10.607
<v Speaker 1>No no. So so this year found us back in

0:51:10.647 --> 0:51:14.887
<v Speaker 1>that situation where we were theoretically having to co parent

0:51:14.927 --> 0:51:18.207
<v Speaker 1>an adult child. You know, she whilst she was an adult,

0:51:18.247 --> 0:51:21.567
<v Speaker 1>she had just turned eighteen and having to make those

0:51:21.967 --> 0:51:25.727
<v Speaker 1>really big, scary decisions about what her life then looked like.

0:51:26.687 --> 0:51:29.287
<v Speaker 1>So she needed, you know, she needed her support crow

0:51:29.367 --> 0:51:33.167
<v Speaker 1>there and that is mum and dad and siblings. And

0:51:33.207 --> 0:51:36.967
<v Speaker 1>we became a really tight unit when that happened, and

0:51:37.007 --> 0:51:39.727
<v Speaker 1>we did it well for the most part. It was

0:51:39.847 --> 0:51:42.927
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure, you know if you ask him the same question,

0:51:43.287 --> 0:51:45.487
<v Speaker 1>Neither one of us really thought that we would spend

0:51:45.607 --> 0:51:48.927
<v Speaker 1>that much time together, nor did we want to, to

0:51:48.967 --> 0:51:52.567
<v Speaker 1>be honest, but there were some ground rules and we

0:51:52.607 --> 0:51:55.327
<v Speaker 1>found ourselves having to live in an apartment away from

0:51:55.687 --> 0:51:57.167
<v Speaker 1>home together.

0:51:57.807 --> 0:51:59.047
<v Speaker 2>And she was having treatment.

0:51:59.087 --> 0:52:02.847
<v Speaker 1>While she was having treatment, I stayed in the hospital

0:52:03.047 --> 0:52:06.127
<v Speaker 1>with her every time she was admitted, and he would

0:52:06.127 --> 0:52:09.167
<v Speaker 1>come and go. And then when she was having chemo,

0:52:09.327 --> 0:52:12.527
<v Speaker 1>which is external to so when she was an outpatient,

0:52:13.127 --> 0:52:14.927
<v Speaker 1>we would have to stay close by. So we would

0:52:14.967 --> 0:52:17.247
<v Speaker 1>live in an apartment, the three of us, or you know,

0:52:17.247 --> 0:52:21.367
<v Speaker 1>if the other siblings were around. So we did spend

0:52:21.407 --> 0:52:27.447
<v Speaker 1>a lot of time together, and that was very It

0:52:27.527 --> 0:52:32.047
<v Speaker 1>was really tricky to start with, but then it was like, okay, well,

0:52:31.887 --> 0:52:34.927
<v Speaker 1>we need to be there for her first and foremost.

0:52:35.407 --> 0:52:39.407
<v Speaker 1>And there were moments there where things were looking a

0:52:39.447 --> 0:52:43.047
<v Speaker 1>little bit. We didn't know which way it was going

0:52:43.127 --> 0:52:45.087
<v Speaker 1>to go, because you don't you just don't.

0:52:44.887 --> 0:52:47.207
<v Speaker 2>You know, you I'm so sorry. I can't imagine.

0:52:47.367 --> 0:52:51.207
<v Speaker 1>You're at the mercy of the medical teams and you

0:52:51.327 --> 0:52:55.167
<v Speaker 1>trust in them. So there was moments there where there

0:52:55.207 --> 0:52:56.967
<v Speaker 1>were you know, there were a lot of tears and

0:52:57.007 --> 0:53:01.287
<v Speaker 1>there were you know, hugs because I haven't repartnered and

0:53:01.327 --> 0:53:04.047
<v Speaker 1>he's there and it's like, you know, we've come together

0:53:04.127 --> 0:53:06.367
<v Speaker 1>and it's going to be okay, and whichever way, we'll

0:53:06.407 --> 0:53:09.047
<v Speaker 1>get through this. And when we were home, it was

0:53:09.087 --> 0:53:12.527
<v Speaker 1>just like my door is open, because she was living

0:53:12.527 --> 0:53:14.207
<v Speaker 1>at home with me. I said, you come and go

0:53:14.367 --> 0:53:17.647
<v Speaker 1>as you please, because you know, you need to have

0:53:17.687 --> 0:53:20.287
<v Speaker 1>that time with her when you want to have that

0:53:20.367 --> 0:53:24.087
<v Speaker 1>time with her, and vice versa, so you know, come

0:53:24.087 --> 0:53:27.607
<v Speaker 1>and go. And that was a really big moment for

0:53:27.687 --> 0:53:31.247
<v Speaker 1>me because it was in my space and in my

0:53:31.407 --> 0:53:34.807
<v Speaker 1>home and in something that I had created like a

0:53:34.847 --> 0:53:39.487
<v Speaker 1>safe haven for myself, so inviting him back in on

0:53:39.527 --> 0:53:43.807
<v Speaker 1>a day to day basis felt it was challenging. But

0:53:43.887 --> 0:53:46.407
<v Speaker 1>I'm so pleased that we did that, and I'm so

0:53:46.567 --> 0:53:50.167
<v Speaker 1>pleased that we did it well. And we you know,

0:53:50.247 --> 0:53:52.567
<v Speaker 1>we've come to the end of the year, and you know,

0:53:52.607 --> 0:53:55.447
<v Speaker 1>we've got a cancer free diagnosis a month ago, and

0:53:56.007 --> 0:53:58.807
<v Speaker 1>I'm so happy to which is, you know, just the

0:53:58.807 --> 0:54:02.567
<v Speaker 1>best news. And to be able to then come home

0:54:02.607 --> 0:54:05.207
<v Speaker 1>from the hospital and crack a bottle of champagne and

0:54:05.247 --> 0:54:07.967
<v Speaker 1>sit there and clink the glasses together and go, you

0:54:08.007 --> 0:54:09.927
<v Speaker 1>know what, we did it.

0:54:09.927 --> 0:54:11.847
<v Speaker 2>It's a great story, Niki Baka. I mean, it's not

0:54:11.887 --> 0:54:14.687
<v Speaker 2>a great story that your daughter went through that and

0:54:14.727 --> 0:54:17.887
<v Speaker 2>that you all went through that, But I can imagine

0:54:17.887 --> 0:54:22.847
<v Speaker 2>a circumstance in which the tension between parents who've been

0:54:22.847 --> 0:54:26.087
<v Speaker 2>through so much in that way would make that almost

0:54:26.087 --> 0:54:30.687
<v Speaker 2>impossible situation entirely impossible for you both and for your daughter,

0:54:30.767 --> 0:54:34.327
<v Speaker 2>and add this extra layer of tension and stress. So

0:54:34.527 --> 0:54:37.447
<v Speaker 2>what an amazing and important thing you did.

0:54:37.847 --> 0:54:40.047
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'm really I am really proud of us for

0:54:40.127 --> 0:54:43.087
<v Speaker 1>doing that. There are moments in the hospital where you

0:54:43.487 --> 0:54:47.047
<v Speaker 1>kind of just because you people ware right, So there

0:54:47.047 --> 0:54:50.487
<v Speaker 1>were moments there where I could see that the parent,

0:54:50.607 --> 0:54:53.207
<v Speaker 1>there's a couple and they are just really struggling, and

0:54:53.247 --> 0:54:56.367
<v Speaker 1>the tension in them and then the tension in their

0:54:56.487 --> 0:55:00.527
<v Speaker 1>child was it was really you could cut the air

0:55:00.567 --> 0:55:02.367
<v Speaker 1>with a knife, and I'm like, I don't want that.

0:55:02.607 --> 0:55:06.007
<v Speaker 1>I can't. We are focused on holy and soul of

0:55:06.087 --> 0:55:09.567
<v Speaker 1>getting her well, and that is our only focus. Put

0:55:09.607 --> 0:55:11.647
<v Speaker 1>your ego at the door, leave it at the door,

0:55:11.727 --> 0:55:14.287
<v Speaker 1>and let's get down to business and we make sure

0:55:14.327 --> 0:55:15.287
<v Speaker 1>that she's going to be okay.

0:55:15.847 --> 0:55:20.927
<v Speaker 2>If this was a TV movie during those times in

0:55:20.927 --> 0:55:23.847
<v Speaker 2>that apartment, you would have discussed all the ins and

0:55:23.847 --> 0:55:26.527
<v Speaker 2>outs of what have happened. You would have forgiven or

0:55:26.567 --> 0:55:30.247
<v Speaker 2>not each other. You may have I don't know, did

0:55:30.287 --> 0:55:32.247
<v Speaker 2>you do all that stuff or was it just like

0:55:32.447 --> 0:55:35.327
<v Speaker 2>so did what was going on with your daughter? Just

0:55:35.447 --> 0:55:38.887
<v Speaker 2>put everything into perspective and it wasn't important.

0:55:39.167 --> 0:55:41.447
<v Speaker 1>It wasn't important. It really just put it all into

0:55:41.487 --> 0:55:45.807
<v Speaker 1>perspective and it's just like, Okay, we are being forced

0:55:45.887 --> 0:55:48.927
<v Speaker 1>into spending this time together. We get a choice here.

0:55:49.407 --> 0:55:52.967
<v Speaker 1>We either come back together and we do this for

0:55:53.007 --> 0:55:57.367
<v Speaker 1>her and our family, or one of us is going

0:55:57.447 --> 0:56:00.247
<v Speaker 1>to be not being able to be with her at

0:56:00.247 --> 0:56:02.487
<v Speaker 1>that time, and that's not fair on her, and it's

0:56:02.527 --> 0:56:06.247
<v Speaker 1>not fair on us as parents. And you know, there

0:56:06.247 --> 0:56:09.967
<v Speaker 1>were moments there where where we're in the apartment and

0:56:10.527 --> 0:56:13.327
<v Speaker 1>I'd put something into the washing machine to wash, and

0:56:13.367 --> 0:56:15.487
<v Speaker 1>I walk it back into the laundry. In the next minute,

0:56:15.487 --> 0:56:17.367
<v Speaker 1>it's on the floor and I'm like, why did you

0:56:17.447 --> 0:56:19.367
<v Speaker 1>take my clothes out of the washing machine? Said, well,

0:56:19.407 --> 0:56:21.287
<v Speaker 1>I'm not going to wash your clothes with my clothes,

0:56:23.927 --> 0:56:26.847
<v Speaker 1>and I'm like, oh gosh, here we are again. It

0:56:26.927 --> 0:56:29.407
<v Speaker 1>kind of takes you back. I'm like, I'm like, I'm

0:56:29.487 --> 0:56:31.487
<v Speaker 1>so glad I'm not married to you anymore.

0:56:33.047 --> 0:56:36.487
<v Speaker 2>I love that. Okay, before we go, I want to

0:56:36.527 --> 0:56:38.687
<v Speaker 2>ask you this. I've seen you say in your ted

0:56:38.727 --> 0:56:41.167
<v Speaker 2>talks that all of this experience and the experience of

0:56:41.247 --> 0:56:43.047
<v Speaker 2>work that you do with other people have made you

0:56:43.167 --> 0:56:46.447
<v Speaker 2>question the whole notion of marriage and long term monogamy

0:56:47.087 --> 0:56:49.767
<v Speaker 2>and partnering. What are you where are you sitting on

0:56:49.807 --> 0:56:50.327
<v Speaker 2>that now?

0:56:51.127 --> 0:56:54.167
<v Speaker 1>Well, if I think you look back at you know

0:56:54.207 --> 0:56:58.087
<v Speaker 1>when when we Western marriage became a thing, and I

0:56:58.087 --> 0:57:00.407
<v Speaker 1>think it was I'll get the date wrong, but I

0:57:00.407 --> 0:57:02.567
<v Speaker 1>think it was twenty thirty five BC or something. Back

0:57:02.607 --> 0:57:05.087
<v Speaker 1>in those days, we had a life expectancy of thirty five,

0:57:05.807 --> 0:57:08.967
<v Speaker 1>so marriages weren't meant to last that long. And now

0:57:09.407 --> 0:57:13.607
<v Speaker 1>we are coming together and our life expectancy is almost

0:57:13.647 --> 0:57:17.047
<v Speaker 1>double that, so expecting to spend that great chunk of

0:57:17.087 --> 0:57:21.767
<v Speaker 1>time with one person, and I just don't think that,

0:57:22.407 --> 0:57:26.047
<v Speaker 1>in what I know, what I've learned, what I've experienced,

0:57:26.047 --> 0:57:28.447
<v Speaker 1>that we're just not meant to marry and mate for life.

0:57:28.967 --> 0:57:31.207
<v Speaker 1>I will say though, that some people are meant to

0:57:31.247 --> 0:57:35.167
<v Speaker 1>be together forever, and they are the extreme of the

0:57:35.327 --> 0:57:39.487
<v Speaker 1>death do us part, and that is beautiful, and there

0:57:39.527 --> 0:57:43.767
<v Speaker 1>are many marriages that do do that. For me. I

0:57:43.807 --> 0:57:46.007
<v Speaker 1>don't think that that was going to be for me,

0:57:47.327 --> 0:57:50.567
<v Speaker 1>and I think that that's okay to really recognize that.

0:57:50.887 --> 0:57:53.807
<v Speaker 1>And it's one of these things that I do feel

0:57:53.847 --> 0:57:56.487
<v Speaker 1>it is a bit of a rite of passage too, right,

0:57:56.607 --> 0:58:01.607
<v Speaker 1>because we celebrate the weddings and we celebrate births, and

0:58:01.647 --> 0:58:05.007
<v Speaker 1>we celebrate all of the big things, but we don't

0:58:05.087 --> 0:58:09.687
<v Speaker 1>celebrate divorce as we have or we can cele break it,

0:58:09.807 --> 0:58:12.487
<v Speaker 1>because it's still this a bit of a dark cloud

0:58:12.487 --> 0:58:16.887
<v Speaker 1>that sits over that. So it's just changing that mindset

0:58:16.927 --> 0:58:19.767
<v Speaker 1>to be able to go. Yeah, marriage can come and go,

0:58:20.607 --> 0:58:22.847
<v Speaker 1>but the next phase of that can also be a

0:58:22.887 --> 0:58:24.287
<v Speaker 1>really beautiful chapter two.

0:58:24.927 --> 0:58:28.047
<v Speaker 2>I love that, Nikki. Thank you so much. We'll direct,

0:58:28.047 --> 0:58:30.087
<v Speaker 2>as I say, everybody, to your work in links in

0:58:30.167 --> 0:58:33.007
<v Speaker 2>our show notes, and I just really appreciate you sharing

0:58:33.087 --> 0:58:33.927
<v Speaker 2>your story with us.

0:58:34.167 --> 0:58:36.247
<v Speaker 1>Oh you're very welcome. Thanks so much for having me.

0:58:39.727 --> 0:58:41.847
<v Speaker 2>I had my heart in my mouth in the last

0:58:41.887 --> 0:58:45.367
<v Speaker 2>parts of that conversation. What happened to Nicky's daughter, which

0:58:45.407 --> 0:58:48.447
<v Speaker 2>is every parent's absolute nightmare, and the way that the

0:58:48.487 --> 0:58:51.927
<v Speaker 2>family pulled in around her is so beautiful and so

0:58:52.007 --> 0:58:54.687
<v Speaker 2>important and so affirming. And I know there are going

0:58:54.727 --> 0:58:56.767
<v Speaker 2>to be people listening to this who are thinking they

0:58:56.767 --> 0:58:59.327
<v Speaker 2>could never share an experience like that with their ex

0:58:59.447 --> 0:59:03.087
<v Speaker 2>even under such extreme circumstances, because their relationships were just

0:59:03.127 --> 0:59:06.727
<v Speaker 2>so toxic or maybe abusive, or their split was so bitter,

0:59:06.967 --> 0:59:11.207
<v Speaker 2>so acrimonious. And of course that's okay too. You've got

0:59:11.207 --> 0:59:13.407
<v Speaker 2>to look after yourself. But if you want to hear

0:59:13.487 --> 0:59:16.487
<v Speaker 2>more about mid relationships, we've got you. You can scroll

0:59:16.527 --> 0:59:18.807
<v Speaker 2>back in the feed and listen to Gina Chick talking

0:59:18.847 --> 0:59:21.727
<v Speaker 2>about letting her husband Lee go so that he could

0:59:21.767 --> 0:59:24.607
<v Speaker 2>have more children after the death of their three year

0:59:24.607 --> 0:59:28.687
<v Speaker 2>old daughter, Blaze. Or Christine Arnu talking about the kind

0:59:28.687 --> 0:59:31.047
<v Speaker 2>of split that leaves you crying in bed for weeks

0:59:31.087 --> 0:59:33.887
<v Speaker 2>and allowing her teenage kids to care for her. Or

0:59:33.967 --> 0:59:37.567
<v Speaker 2>Leslie Morgan about walking away from a sexless marriage and

0:59:37.607 --> 0:59:43.567
<v Speaker 2>rediscovering pleasure and lots of orgasms at fifty. I've got

0:59:43.927 --> 0:59:47.527
<v Speaker 2>enormous thanks and appreciation for Nicki for being so vulnerable

0:59:47.687 --> 0:59:50.407
<v Speaker 2>and sharing that remarkable story. I know it'll be familiar

0:59:50.407 --> 0:59:52.927
<v Speaker 2>to lots of you. You can find out more about

0:59:52.927 --> 0:59:55.607
<v Speaker 2>her and her work in the link in our show notes.

0:59:55.807 --> 0:59:58.567
<v Speaker 2>And look, I know that divorces are much more than breakups,

0:59:58.567 --> 1:00:01.687
<v Speaker 2>but sometimes a breakup song is exactly what you need.

1:00:01.967 --> 1:00:05.207
<v Speaker 2>And we've got some suggestions from the talented mid team.

1:00:05.487 --> 1:00:09.247
<v Speaker 2>Our executive producer Nama Brown says Exile by Taylor Swis

1:00:09.527 --> 1:00:12.367
<v Speaker 2>is her go to for ugly crying. Our producer Charlie

1:00:12.367 --> 1:00:15.047
<v Speaker 2>Blackman says, lover you should have come over by Jeff

1:00:15.087 --> 1:00:18.527
<v Speaker 2>Buckley is hers, which is extraordinarily gen x of her

1:00:18.607 --> 1:00:22.327
<v Speaker 2>considering she's a zee. And Tom Lyon, who is responsible

1:00:22.367 --> 1:00:26.727
<v Speaker 2>for us seamless audio production, says the scientist by coldplay

1:00:27.287 --> 1:00:32.167
<v Speaker 2>me you can't go past against all odds facts. Thank

1:00:32.207 --> 1:00:48.567
<v Speaker 2>you mids and goodbye