Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma mea podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on white dresses and canna
Speaker 2: pays and flowers, the perfect shade of pearl, Promises and
Speaker 2: purchases and blueprints for a life. Will do this, and
Speaker 2: will do that, and oh the places will go. An
Speaker 2: act of audacious hope, signed off on by everyone you love.
Speaker 2: Reinforcement against the world, a comrade, a co conspirator, the
Speaker 2: person at your back. And then a slow fade or
Speaker 2: a sudden reveal, a creeping unease, or a bolt of betrayal.
Speaker 2: For many, divorce at the moment of impact is an
Speaker 2: upending of everything we're taught to counter. A dream that
Speaker 2: turned dark from the edges, in plan that didn't pan
Speaker 2: out in the most public of ways, a financial earthquake
Speaker 2: and emotional tnunami. A practical puzzle, how do you untangle
Speaker 2: two lives or three, four or five? Throw in the
Speaker 2: family and the friends and the acquaintances, and you're on
Speaker 2: picking an entire community, pulling on threads until they're free
Speaker 2: and clear. It takes time. You say, at least three years,
Speaker 2: you told me at least four and a half, you said, mids.
Speaker 2: You told me all kinds of things when I asked
Speaker 2: about the words you wish you'd had in your pocket
Speaker 2: at the start of your own seismic divorce shift. Some
Speaker 2: of them are shiny with optimism, some of them sopping
Speaker 2: in pain. You have to remember you said that the
Speaker 2: person you marry is never the person you divorce. It's
Speaker 2: okay for you to want life to be better, not
Speaker 2: just for your kids, but also for yourself. You said,
Speaker 2: it's okay to be emotional. It doesn't mean you're not
Speaker 2: smart and strong. There is no shame in this. The
Speaker 2: grass isn't always greener.
Speaker 1: You told me.
Speaker 2: Pick your battles, have a bigger getaway fun than you
Speaker 2: think you need. Don't lose your self confidence, Separate money
Speaker 2: and emotion as much as you can. You're going to survive,
Speaker 2: you said, and be better than okay. You're going to
Speaker 2: be free and reborn when devastation is all you see
Speaker 2: and feel. You told me, it's hard to see the light,
Speaker 2: but it will come. Your words, not mine, offering a
Speaker 2: hand to hold as the wedding video rewinds, as the
Speaker 2: uncoupling clicks open, as a new life begins to reach,
Speaker 2: bud and bloom. Divorce is an ending and a beginning,
Speaker 2: and beginnings should be celebrated. And what if, just like
Speaker 2: at that party with the dresses and cannopeys and flowers,
Speaker 2: the perfect shade of pearl, you get to walk towards it, bolstered, supported,
Speaker 2: flanked by love and told congratulations mate for choosing you.
Speaker 2: I hope you'll be very happy together.
Speaker 1: Hello.
Speaker 2: I'm Holly Wainwright and I am mid midlife, midfamily, mid
Speaker 2: non marriage. I'm getting straight to it today because the
Speaker 2: story you're about to hear is one that you've been
Speaker 2: asking for, and you don't need to hang around a
Speaker 2: minute longer to hear it. Nicki Parkinson thought that her
Speaker 2: husband of fifteen years was having an affair. No, he said,
Speaker 2: you're imagining it, he said, No way, he said. And
Speaker 2: then one day she got an email in the middle
Speaker 2: of the night, the subject line all caps. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2: Nicky's going to tell you that story in a moment.
Speaker 2: But importantly, she's also going to tell you what became
Speaker 2: before and what came after it. Because what everyone who's
Speaker 2: lived through the collapse of a long term relationship knows
Speaker 2: to be true, even in the face of an I'm
Speaker 2: sorry midnight email is that a divorce is never a
Speaker 2: simple linear Everything was absolutely fine and then boom story.
Speaker 2: You're going to really like Nikki too, not just because
Speaker 2: of her honesty, but because six years after that email,
Speaker 2: she's got a lot of perspectives on the mistakes she
Speaker 2: believes that she made as her marriage fell apart, both
Speaker 2: really practical ones and emotional ones, and now she shares
Speaker 2: those mistakes and what she believes of their solutions with
Speaker 2: other women in the same situation. She also has a
Speaker 2: story about what happened in their family earlier this year
Speaker 2: that brought her and the man who wrote that email
Speaker 2: back under the same roof, and it's inspiring in the extreme. So,
Speaker 2: mids you asked for it, and here it is divorce
Speaker 2: with Nicki Parkinson. Nikki, I've seen you say that when
Speaker 2: a friend tells you they're getting divorced, and you're tempted
Speaker 2: to say, oh, I'm sorry, that maybe you should stop
Speaker 2: yourself and instead offer some congratulations. Why is that?
Speaker 1: Look? I think that the connotations around divorce and separation
Speaker 1: is that it is a failure and it is so
Speaker 1: it's something that we should have a lot of sorrow
Speaker 1: around and actually do you really do? So let's not
Speaker 1: sugarcoat that because it's pretty awful. But I think what
Speaker 1: it is is somebody is taking that next step into
Speaker 1: this next chapter or season of their life, and they're
Speaker 1: doing it with courage, and they're brave and they're strong,
Speaker 1: and so what they need is I'm so proud of you,
Speaker 1: or a congratulations on your divorce if it feels like
Speaker 1: the right thing to say. But our default is, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry, And it's that look that someone gives
Speaker 1: you when when they say or that pity look, I suppose,
Speaker 1: And I just think we need to reframe that.
Speaker 2: I mean, I suppose obviously, under the umbrella of divorce
Speaker 2: and why a relationship ends, there are so many different
Speaker 2: ways that can happen. That's sometimes the congratulations on prioritizing
Speaker 2: yourself and your sanity and health is exactly the right
Speaker 2: thing to say. And sometimes i'm sorry that you were
Speaker 2: betrayed might be the right thing to say.
Speaker 1: Right, yes, yes, absolutely, yeah, I mean there are there
Speaker 1: are spectrums, right, there's the it takes on everything. So yes,
Speaker 1: you're right in I'm sorry that that happened to you,
Speaker 1: But how do we make that the best thing for you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and how do we throw out the idea as
Speaker 2: you say that it's always a failure and a disaster.
Speaker 2: And yeah, of course, let's start with your own experience
Speaker 2: of divorce, the thing that led you to the work
Speaker 2: that you do. First, tell me about your marriage.
Speaker 1: We were we were set up on a blind date
Speaker 1: with our mutual hairdresser and an interfering mother.
Speaker 2: Do you mind me asking you how old you were
Speaker 2: when you got together?
Speaker 1: Oh, ish ish ish. I would have been twenty five, so.
Speaker 2: Like mid twenties. Yeah, mid training time that people are
Speaker 2: often coupling up kind of.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. So I had a three year old at
Speaker 1: the time from a former high school sweetheart relationship, and
Speaker 1: so it was her and I and we my ex
Speaker 1: and I had met and it was, you know, this
Speaker 1: really beautiful, well wind romance. It was great. It was
Speaker 1: all things that we had hoped that marriage would be.
Speaker 1: You know, we go in our mid twenties, we're thinking, Okay,
Speaker 1: what is this partnership a lifelong partnership? And you hope
Speaker 1: that it is. I mean, nobody gets married with the
Speaker 1: thought that, well someday I'm going to get divorced or
Speaker 1: I'm going to separate. So it was you know, I
Speaker 1: had up its ups and downs. It was never perfect.
Speaker 1: It was good and it was bad, and it was
Speaker 1: fucking horrible at the times, but it was it was.
Speaker 1: It was us, and it was You go into a
Speaker 1: relationship or you go into a partnership hoping that it's
Speaker 1: going to bring you a lifelong trail of happiness. I
Speaker 1: suppose along the way.
Speaker 2: What were the first signs for you that maybe things
Speaker 2: weren't as happy as you maybe thought.
Speaker 1: I think we were just not on the same page, Holly.
Speaker 1: We had I was quite growth driven and he was
Speaker 1: quite happy just to be And not that that's a
Speaker 1: bad thing.
Speaker 2: It's quite a familiar story though. Actually, yes, we in
Speaker 2: heterosexual relationships. As you get a bit older, that I
Speaker 2: see around me a lot is that often women are like,
Speaker 2: this can't be everything. I want to work on myself.
Speaker 2: I want what's the next phase? What are we going
Speaker 2: to like that? And the often manimal.
Speaker 1: Things are okay, yeah, I'm not going to question that.
Speaker 1: That's okay. We're good. We're good. We've got you know,
Speaker 1: we've got a house, we've got super we've got money
Speaker 1: in the bank. Kids are okay, let's just keep plotting along.
Speaker 1: But I think the thing is that asy and I
Speaker 1: think generally as women, we are we're looking for a
Speaker 1: broader not meaning, but maybe purpose for what are we
Speaker 1: kind of doing here? And we have children and then
Speaker 1: children start to grow up and it's just like, oh shit,
Speaker 1: is this it? Like? Is this?
Speaker 2: Is this it?
Speaker 1: Like? Am I going to live out the rest of
Speaker 1: my days doing the day in day out? And I
Speaker 1: guess for me, I probably wanted a little bit more,
Speaker 1: but I wasn't brave enough to really deep dive into that, going,
Speaker 1: oh gosh, you know, do I end a marriage? Do
Speaker 1: I end a relationship just because that's what I want
Speaker 1: to do? And had I guess an event not had happened,
Speaker 1: would I have a question I asked myself, is would
Speaker 1: I have been brave enough to end the marriage or
Speaker 1: end the relationship or would I have just stuck it out?
Speaker 2: And the thing that happened? You were you suspect for
Speaker 2: a while? Did you that maybe that he was seeing
Speaker 2: somebody else, that he was having an affair? Is that right?
Speaker 1: I did? Yeah?
Speaker 2: And what did that look like?
Speaker 1: It was? I suspected it for a really long time.
Speaker 1: There was just a real disconnect and.
Speaker 2: You said a really long time. How long do you
Speaker 2: are we talking? Months? Are we talking to you here?
Speaker 1: I'm I'm going to say about eighteen months prior to
Speaker 1: our marriage actually ending. And you know, I might have
Speaker 1: it might have just been how I was feeling. But
Speaker 1: I'm a really big believer in gut instinct, and something
Speaker 1: told me that something wasn't right. And that's something I
Speaker 1: wasn't sure what it was. I just couldn't put my
Speaker 1: finger on it. So for a long period of time,
Speaker 1: I thought that I was just going a bit crazy, right,
Speaker 1: Like I was asking myself, Am I just inventing these thoughts?
Speaker 1: Am I reading into things? Because I just don't feel
Speaker 1: really happy at the moment?
Speaker 2: Were you asking him?
Speaker 1: I was asking him, was saying completely denied it absolutely not,
Speaker 1: You're crazy? Why would you think that that's not true?
Speaker 1: All of these connotations that I felt like. And at
Speaker 1: the end of the day, and I now know, you
Speaker 1: know what gas lighting is, and at that point in time,
Speaker 1: it was not this term that is thrown around quite
Speaker 1: often these days. So I mean we're talking six years ago,
Speaker 1: so it was starting to make its way out into
Speaker 1: the psychological world, I suppose, and in the media, So
Speaker 1: I didn't really have an understanding of what that was.
Speaker 2: So you knew, so you knew you weren't necessarily in
Speaker 2: your marriage leaping out of bed every day going this
Speaker 2: is amazing. As you say, you were questioning where you're going,
Speaker 2: but you were going along. You're suspecting this, You're asking him,
Speaker 2: He's saying, though, then and then what happened?
Speaker 1: Then? What happened is it was he had a small
Speaker 1: medical procedure done, and we'd got back from the hospital
Speaker 1: and he sat on the couch and he just said,
Speaker 1: I don't love you anymore. I'm leaving. Gosh, cold hearted,
Speaker 1: brutal conversation, nothing more than that.
Speaker 2: I this question seems so silly in how did you feel?
Speaker 2: What did you What happened in that moment?
Speaker 1: Felt like my world had just been knocked out from
Speaker 1: even though I had, you know, I had this thought
Speaker 1: that something was going on, something wasn't right. So even
Speaker 1: though I felt like that, I can't I was really
Speaker 1: quite blindsided, to be honest.
Speaker 2: Because he'd he'd been denying it and reassuring you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and look Holly. To this day he still
Speaker 1: won't admit that to me. And that's okay. That's that's
Speaker 1: his story, and that's on him, that's not on me.
Speaker 1: But how I felt was it was kind of like
Speaker 1: a bit of like an outer body experience, to be
Speaker 1: really honest. I'm sitting on the couch and I'm hearing
Speaker 1: these words come out of his mouth and they're landing,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, what the fuck has just happened here?
Speaker 1: And it wasn't until a little while later to when
Speaker 1: the kids were going to come back home that we
Speaker 1: had to put on this happy face of because the
Speaker 1: next day I was traveling with one of my children
Speaker 1: for a sporting event. So then I had to pack
Speaker 1: everyone up and jump in the car the next morning
Speaker 1: with the happy, smiley face. Let's get you through the
Speaker 1: you know, the next couple of days, and knowing that
Speaker 1: in turnal like when I got back, things were going
Speaker 1: to change dramatically. How old were your kids at this point,
Speaker 1: sixteen and sixteen and eleven.
Speaker 2: Sixteen and eleven, and he says this, you've got to oh,
Speaker 2: here's dinner time, here's packing the bags, here's going off
Speaker 2: to do the parental stuff. When you got back. Was
Speaker 2: there any part of you at that time like did
Speaker 2: you go, well, this is over or did you go
Speaker 2: we should work on it.
Speaker 1: I went straight into the I suppose the stage of grief.
Speaker 1: I skipped the anger to start with, and then it
Speaker 1: went back into bargaining, right, so how can we make
Speaker 1: it work? And almost like begging him to stay, really
Speaker 1: begging him to let's fix this. But in hindsight, I
Speaker 1: knew that it was too far gone to fix and
Speaker 1: even if we did fix it, it wasn't going to
Speaker 1: be as it was ever again.
Speaker 2: Mothers oftener, let's fix this because you don't want to.
Speaker 2: And I know that and we'll get to all this later,
Speaker 2: that this isn't necessarily what it is. But in the
Speaker 2: picture in your head, blow up my children's lives, ruin
Speaker 2: my children's lives. And again I know that's not what happens,
Speaker 2: but this is what's going going through your head. We
Speaker 2: can deal with this, we can put up with this.
Speaker 2: It's not perfect, but we'll do it. So you were
Speaker 2: kind of, I imagine, in that phase for a while.
Speaker 1: For months, months and months, and then just trying to
Speaker 1: wrap my head around how we were actually going to
Speaker 1: then tell the kids and what did that look like?
Speaker 1: And even though you know I came from a legal background,
Speaker 1: and I've seen many many people go through what I
Speaker 1: was going through. I honestly didn't think that I would
Speaker 1: that that would be me. One day I would be
Speaker 1: sitting on the other side and being the client, Like,
Speaker 1: I really didn't think that that would be me.
Speaker 2: Can I ask you who you turned to in that
Speaker 2: very tumultuous time when this was all very fresh? Was
Speaker 2: it girlfriends? Was it family? Did you keep it to yourself? Like?
Speaker 2: How did you go about go honoring some support and
Speaker 2: perspective in those early days.
Speaker 1: The first phone call I made was to my girlfriend,
Speaker 1: and we'd shared a lot about, you know, how I
Speaker 1: felt things were and what was kind of going on
Speaker 1: and my suspicions and how I felt about that, and
Speaker 1: then it was just like the phone call and I'm crying,
Speaker 1: sobbing mess on the phone, and all I could get
Speaker 1: out to her was it's finally happened. And she, of
Speaker 1: course knew exactly what I was talking about, so, you know,
Speaker 1: she's there in a heartbeat, and we had to coordinate
Speaker 1: times where he wasn't going to be home so that
Speaker 1: she could turn up, so that I could fall apart
Speaker 1: without you know, collectively trying to keep it together with
Speaker 1: family and those sorts of things and girlfriends and my
Speaker 1: mum and my sister were initially really great support. So
Speaker 1: I kept the circle really tight because you know, living
Speaker 1: in where I live, it's a very small town and
Speaker 1: small community. So that was probably one of the things
Speaker 1: that I really wanted to do, was not involve you
Speaker 1: have it spread across the community, I suppose.
Speaker 2: And it's interesting what you said about how you had
Speaker 2: to schedule falling apart time, because that's the reality for
Speaker 2: a lot of especially if you've got kids. That's the
Speaker 2: reality of you, Like, I can't fall apart entirely. I've
Speaker 2: got to give myself between one o'clock and three o'clock.
Speaker 1: Yeah, or you know seven pm in the shower where
Speaker 1: you're rocking in the shower and you're a sobbing this.
Speaker 1: I mean, how many mothers have cried in the shower
Speaker 1: over It's the only safe place that you can do
Speaker 1: it without your kids looking at you, going shit, what's
Speaker 1: going on with mum.
Speaker 2: I'm going to be back with my conversation with Nikki
Speaker 2: Parkinson after this break, talking about the moment she knew
Speaker 2: her marriage was over. Was it an email that you
Speaker 2: got from him that finally made you go, oh, we
Speaker 2: are getting divorced. What happened?
Speaker 1: Yeah, the email, the email arrived at the early hours
Speaker 1: one morning with the headline I'm sorry.
Speaker 2: And the email from your partner with the head like,
Speaker 2: I'm sorry all caps, all caps.
Speaker 1: You're like shouting at me.
Speaker 2: It's not going to be good.
Speaker 1: What did the email? Then? The email? It was never
Speaker 1: going to be good with that title, right, So, and
Speaker 1: I never check emails when I first wake up in
Speaker 1: the morning, it's just not It was four am. I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: I just check what's going on in the world. Open
Speaker 1: the and I see the email from him, and I
Speaker 1: knew instinctively that something was obviously not right. But the
Speaker 1: email was basically saying that he had actually been caught
Speaker 1: with He's the person he was having an affair with,
Speaker 1: and that's what he was sorry for.
Speaker 2: Caught by him her husband. Oh, so she was also
Speaker 2: in a relationship. And so he would not Up until
Speaker 2: this point, he hadn't admitted to you that he was
Speaker 2: having an affair. You'd been asking him for more than
Speaker 2: a year, and even when he said I don't love
Speaker 2: you anymore, he wouldn't tell you no. But when she
Speaker 2: got busted. That's when he had to tell you because
Speaker 2: he knew it would come out. It would come out,
Speaker 2: and obviously protecting everybody here within your community, people that
Speaker 2: you sort of like, did you have mutual like was
Speaker 2: it going to blow up, you know, in your lives?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was to It was going to blow up, Yeah, friendships, workplaces,
Speaker 1: all of the all of the things, and you know
Speaker 1: it did. It did exactly that. It blew everything apart,
Speaker 1: and then when the pieces start to land again, you
Speaker 1: then have to figure out how you're going to put
Speaker 1: that back together and is it it's obviously not going
Speaker 1: to go back in the same way that it came out.
Speaker 1: So then that's where the gift is, right, So that's
Speaker 1: where the gift that you get to choose. And mind you,
Speaker 1: for anyone listening, I did it terribly?
Speaker 2: What did you do? So tell yes, because I'm sure
Speaker 2: you know, the hard fought wisdom of what you went
Speaker 2: through then has got you to a very different place
Speaker 2: where you help women who are in that situation. But
Speaker 2: the mistakes that you made there, what did you do?
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, I imagine when you got that email. I
Speaker 2: imagine you threw your phone at the wall and had
Speaker 2: whiskey for breakfast, Like that's what I could have done. Sorry,
Speaker 2: maybe not.
Speaker 1: Maybe not whiskey, I mean not whiskey, No, no, no,
Speaker 1: the Irish coffee.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: Oh. When I read the email, I I picked up
Speaker 1: the phone and out in the backyard at four am
Speaker 1: in the morning, screaming obscenity down the phone to him.
Speaker 1: Funnily enough, he picks the fine up at four o'clock
Speaker 1: in the morning, so you know he's probably waiting for
Speaker 1: the phone call, right he.
Speaker 2: Knew that, I'm sorry, email had landed.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it had landed. So what did I do?
Speaker 1: What are the mistakes that I made? I communication was terrible?
Speaker 2: How could it not be the NICKI really in the
Speaker 2: heat of.
Speaker 1: That, Yeah, yeah, in hindsight. And I what I tell
Speaker 1: people now is give yourself the gift of time and
Speaker 1: pressing pause on angry communication because we all want to
Speaker 1: say it, right. But I did, and I you know,
Speaker 1: I shot off emails, I shot off text messages. I
Speaker 1: wouldn't speak with him. I you know, I never involved
Speaker 1: the kids in that, despite being accused of being the kids,
Speaker 1: of being involved in that. They were my rock and
Speaker 1: I had to My own thought was, how do I
Speaker 1: protect them through this, and how do I protect them
Speaker 1: knowing what could come out in the community, Because at
Speaker 1: the end of the day, he's still their dad and
Speaker 1: they get to still have a beautiful relationship with him
Speaker 1: and vice versa, and none of those actions should stop that.
Speaker 2: But your anger was very valid at that time.
Speaker 1: Sure, and I you know, there were moments there I
Speaker 1: was just like, I just want to punish you for
Speaker 1: what you did, so I would write it all out.
Speaker 1: But you know, there would be moments WHEREUNT just writing
Speaker 1: the emails and they're so vile and vicious and angry
Speaker 1: and saying all the things that I wanted to say,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I really shouldn't send this. I really
Speaker 1: shouldn't send it. Not fuck it, I'm going to send that,
Speaker 1: and then it's just like you can't take it back.
Speaker 1: It's so those things I think I didn't do very well.
Speaker 1: And the other thing I did was I lay it
Speaker 1: up and I shouldn't have. I should have got the
Speaker 1: advice I should have. You know, I think in any
Speaker 1: vocation that we have, if you are, you know for
Speaker 1: a lawyer that is their own client has a fool
Speaker 1: for a client, right, So if.
Speaker 2: Yes, because yeah, let's two steps back. You were a lawyer.
Speaker 1: I wasn't working in family law at that time, but
Speaker 1: you had I had, yes.
Speaker 2: So you probably had. For some women who are in
Speaker 2: this situation, they have no clue about what the next
Speaker 2: step should be. You probably did have some clue because
Speaker 2: you've been working in that world and talking to women,
Speaker 2: I assume who were in relatively similar situations. But was
Speaker 2: the initial lawyering up part of the sort of punishment
Speaker 2: almost like that I'm gonna I don't know what kind
Speaker 2: is that?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Probably? I mean, yeah, I did. I had all
Speaker 1: of the legal knowledge. I knew what I had to do,
Speaker 1: when I had to do it, what I needed, and
Speaker 1: how the process was going to unfold if I took
Speaker 1: it from point A to point But what I did
Speaker 1: do was I shot off a legal letter from my
Speaker 1: lawyer in how do we fix the finances? How do
Speaker 1: we sort the kids out? And it all became very formal,
Speaker 1: very quickly. So that was one of the mistakes that
Speaker 1: I made. What I should have done was get some
Speaker 1: advice and somebody independently giving me advice irrespective of what
Speaker 1: knowledge I had, and then just taken some time to
Speaker 1: think that through. Because when you like when you had
Speaker 1: this fogginess and a shock, We're not meant to be
Speaker 1: able to make those really big decisions. We're expected to,
Speaker 1: but we're not supposed to. I don't think. And I
Speaker 1: had a conversation recently with one of the judges of
Speaker 1: the Federal Circuit Court and he says the same thing.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm seeing people come through this system that
Speaker 1: their early day of separation and having to make these
Speaker 1: really big life decisions when they kind of inn sea
Speaker 1: for it to the future. Yeah, absolutely so, I you know,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't do that again.
Speaker 2: And is that partly because involving the lawyers at that
Speaker 2: point it escalates everything? Is that what it is? It
Speaker 2: kind of it escalates everything and accelerates it. Is that
Speaker 2: partly why? And sort of before you've really had time
Speaker 2: to let things settle and see what you want, what's
Speaker 2: best for you, the kids, what he wants, I guess,
Speaker 2: although I don't care what he wants at this point,
Speaker 2: which is because I'm in your stage of shock. I'm
Speaker 2: sure I'll get there. But is that why? Is it?
Speaker 2: Because it just escalates everything.
Speaker 1: It does, and what it does it actually takes it
Speaker 1: a little bit out of your control, because the lawyers
Speaker 1: are there to give you advice on what the law says.
Speaker 1: Basically that's their only job. They're not there to be
Speaker 1: your emotional support person. And doesn't mean they don't care,
Speaker 1: but that's not their role. So their role is okay,
Speaker 1: So we're there now, we're out there and where it's
Speaker 1: a business decision and we're trying to carve up assets
Speaker 1: and liabilities and we're trying to put the kids in
Speaker 1: this little box and how much time are they going
Speaker 1: to spend with mum and how much time are they
Speaker 1: going to spend with dad? And all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: it's just like really quick. So as much as I
Speaker 1: wanted it over with, I probably should have given myself
Speaker 1: a lot more time than what I actually did.
Speaker 2: Can I ask you about the kids? So the four
Speaker 2: am screaming phone call and the new processing that, how
Speaker 2: did you talk to the kids about what had happened
Speaker 2: when you after this point? And did you get that right?
Speaker 2: Do you think? And are their lessons to be there?
Speaker 2: How did you handle it? And did you do it together?
Speaker 1: We did?
Speaker 2: That's impressive considering the amount of betrayal you must have
Speaker 2: been feeling.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I probably burn a wedding photo before having a
Speaker 1: chat with the kids. But actually, yeah I did.
Speaker 2: Did Did you have a bomb fire in the back garden?
Speaker 1: You know, I just did this quite quite wou Bay
Speaker 1: and based ceremonial thing where you just burn the photo
Speaker 1: and you know, get sage, stick a hut in the
Speaker 1: crystals and all the things. That was That was fun.
Speaker 2: Because you do live up there on the North coast.
Speaker 1: On the North Coast, we did tell the kids. One
Speaker 1: of the things that I wanted to make sure we
Speaker 1: did was give them an opportunity to have a conversation.
Speaker 1: And it was one of the worst conversations that I've
Speaker 1: had to prepare for, to be really honest. So what
Speaker 1: do we say, Who's going to talk? Who's going to
Speaker 1: do the talking? And at that point in time when
Speaker 1: we're having a discussion about that, so well, you can
Speaker 1: do the talking you want. This this is your fault,
Speaker 1: this is this is all your fault.
Speaker 2: You tell them how you've screwed me over.
Speaker 1: Go on, Yeah, you do that, But of course that
Speaker 1: wasn't ever going to happen. And we get to, you know,
Speaker 1: bringing them together and they're kind of a bit weird. Well,
Speaker 1: what do we need to come and sit down and
Speaker 1: have a conversation with you. And you know, my middle
Speaker 1: child is like, I've got skating to do. How long
Speaker 1: is this going to take? You know? So it's sitting
Speaker 1: down at the table and then it's I'm waiting for
Speaker 1: him to start the conversation and it just never starts,
Speaker 1: and the kids are kind of looking like gosh, who's died,
Speaker 1: looking across the table at each other. And so then
Speaker 1: it's like, okay, well I've got to step up here,
Speaker 1: so parking everything else, dad, and I've got something to
Speaker 1: talk to you about. Like Dad's going to go and
Speaker 1: stay with you know, Nanny and Poppy for a while.
Speaker 1: And the kids are like, is that it is?
Speaker 2: That?
Speaker 1: It like she's like my middle child is It's like, okay,
Speaker 1: well that's cool. What do we need a family meeting
Speaker 1: about that? For?
Speaker 2: When?
Speaker 1: Do you haven't when you come back dad? And then
Speaker 1: it was like okay, so no, we need to actually
Speaker 1: say it. We need to say it. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So, which is so hard because as a parent, you
Speaker 2: everything is about protecting your kid's feelings and you're like,
Speaker 2: maybe that's an easy way in, but actually they need
Speaker 2: to hear the true.
Speaker 1: Hear the words.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So what did you say?
Speaker 1: Dad and I are separating? Yeah? And from then they
Speaker 1: got it. So I was trying to sugarcoat it in
Speaker 1: a way, I guess make it, you know not So,
Speaker 1: I mean I didn't want to have the conversation full stop,
Speaker 1: but we have to say the words to kids because
Speaker 1: otherwise they just don't understand it. Don't mince your words, right, So, yes,
Speaker 1: Dad and I are separating. Dad's going to stay, you know,
Speaker 1: over there for a while, and then we're going to
Speaker 1: figure out what it is it looks like, and it's
Speaker 1: we're still a family. We're still going to try and
Speaker 1: come together. Dad's still Dad, I'm still me. You've got
Speaker 1: the best of both of us. Do you have questions?
Speaker 2: And did they have questions? Or is it too soon?
Speaker 1: Way too soon?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: They both just scattered in very different directions, and I
Speaker 1: was kind of expecting that to be honest. So then
Speaker 1: it's a you know, then it's just a continued conversation,
Speaker 1: checking in, are you okay? Do you need to ask
Speaker 1: me anything? And some of the things that they they
Speaker 1: want to know is do we have to move? We
Speaker 1: are we going to live somewhere else? Yeah?
Speaker 2: How much it's going to affect that day to day.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's really valid. Yeah, of course, because that's
Speaker 1: their safety net. You know, that community is their safety net.
Speaker 1: Their home is their their kids, you know, their their
Speaker 1: friendship groups are there, their school is there, so of
Speaker 1: course that they want to know what is the impact
Speaker 1: going to be for them. So it's just recognizing And
Speaker 1: I didn't really have a plan forward of what that
Speaker 1: looked like at that time, so we kind of figured
Speaker 1: that out together. But after I told the kids, I
Speaker 1: then kind of just fell apart. To be honest, it
Speaker 1: was I can't. I didn't feel like I could hold
Speaker 1: it all together. And I stopped eating, not because I
Speaker 1: because I didn't that I wanted to. I just I
Speaker 1: had no hunger anymore. And that's a really I hear
Speaker 1: that a lot like people to stop eating, and I
Speaker 1: didn't realize I was doing it until my youngest said
Speaker 1: to me, I'm not eating anymore until I see you
Speaker 1: put food in your mouth. Oh I'm like, oh wow,
Speaker 1: And that was that was heart wrenching for me to
Speaker 1: hear her say that to me, And at the moment,
Speaker 1: I'll never forget. And I felt like I'd let her
Speaker 1: down because what sort of a role model was I being.
Speaker 1: I'm asking them to be brave, I'm asking them to
Speaker 1: you know, fall into this new way of life. Yet
Speaker 1: here I am just you know, losing my shit over
Speaker 1: in the corner, right.
Speaker 2: I know. But NICKI and I know, I'm sure you
Speaker 2: know this now, but that just makes me want to
Speaker 2: give you a hug because you were going through something
Speaker 2: enormous And this is what's so hard is you've got
Speaker 2: to keep it together and inverted commas for your kids.
Speaker 2: But that's actually impossible. And I know that some people say, well,
Speaker 2: it's very important for your kids to see you fall
Speaker 2: apart and put yourself back together again and struggling and things,
Speaker 2: but we all know that that's also very hard for
Speaker 2: them to see you struggling. So it's just you're in
Speaker 2: a very difficult situation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And how much of that do they need to see?
Speaker 2: Holly? Like, what did you land with all that? Were
Speaker 2: you even though they were picking up because they're like, Mum,
Speaker 2: isn't even eating? Were you pretending everything was fine on
Speaker 2: the outside, like hi, darlings, it's dinner time? Or were
Speaker 2: you we were kind.
Speaker 1: Of I you know, I would I'd get them off
Speaker 1: to school, and you know, we everything kind of just
Speaker 1: stayed the same. Really. It was I'd cook the meals
Speaker 1: and sit down and I'd push the food around on
Speaker 1: my plate. And there was times there where I was like, no,
Speaker 1: we're going to come together as a family. And he'd
Speaker 1: come back sometimes every fortnight for Sunday night dinner, and
Speaker 1: I was really conscious that that's what I wanted to
Speaker 1: do for them. And that didn't last very long because
Speaker 1: it was so awkward, Like it was, the idea was
Speaker 1: a great idea. It seems like it seems like a
Speaker 1: good idea at the time, but it wasn't. So yeah,
Speaker 1: everything just kind of ticked along really until it wasn't.
Speaker 1: And I didn't realize that I was just I was
Speaker 1: just putting one foot in front of the other and
Speaker 1: that's all I was doing. And moments of where you
Speaker 1: want to break down, you know, there'd be times you
Speaker 1: cooking dinner and the kitchen and the tears are streaming
Speaker 1: and you can't stop those because once those you know,
Speaker 1: those big tears start to flow and they're really hard
Speaker 1: to stop. So it's just like, oh, I'm really sweaty,
Speaker 1: I'm just going to go on have a shower, So
Speaker 1: you jump in the shower and you'd have a little
Speaker 1: bit more of a cry and then you pop back
Speaker 1: out and just don't let the past to burn. And
Speaker 1: you know, and it's some days I look at it
Speaker 1: and go, gosh, I don't even know how I got
Speaker 1: got through that, but I did.
Speaker 2: And was there a moment, a turning point or that
Speaker 2: you can see that you began to come out of
Speaker 2: that a little bit and look around.
Speaker 1: Probably the moment where my youngest said to me, yeah,
Speaker 1: because that was really confronting. And I had lost a
Speaker 1: lot of weight.
Speaker 2: So you were lost, looking really frail, really frail.
Speaker 1: I was looking really sick. I then got w hooping
Speaker 1: cough and it's you know, your body, your body is
Speaker 1: just it's going to if you don't stop and try
Speaker 1: and you know, heal yourself. Something's got to give and
Speaker 1: it does.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, yeah, So what did you do to try?
Speaker 2: And when you when you were realized, you were at
Speaker 2: that point where you're like, okay, this isn't going well.
Speaker 2: I'm literally breaking down, like my what is Something's got
Speaker 2: to change? What changed?
Speaker 1: Mindset? Mindset changed, and it's like, okay, this has happened
Speaker 1: and I need to move forward. So it's like, all right,
Speaker 1: so what do we need as a family. I moved
Speaker 1: the kids to the beach and moved house. Yep. It's
Speaker 1: like I can't stay in the house that I'm in anymore.
Speaker 1: There's too many memories here. Moved house, moved to the beach.
Speaker 1: I got in the ocean every day, rain, hail, or
Speaker 1: shine for three hundred and sixty five days, every morning
Speaker 1: and every afternoon, and that became my therapy. I would
Speaker 1: walk down barefoot, cup of tea in hand, immerse myself
Speaker 1: in the you know, really dig my feet into the sand.
Speaker 1: So it was just really grounding and throwing myself in
Speaker 1: and no wetsuit. Winter was just a swim suits like
Speaker 1: it's freezing, but you've commuted to that. So that therapy
Speaker 1: really looking after myself instead of trying to sabotage myself
Speaker 1: because I was thinking, gosh, you know, I felt betrayed.
Speaker 1: I felt like I'd failed, I felt shame, I felt embarrassed.
Speaker 1: I felt this, you know that I never wanted to
Speaker 1: go back out into that community again. And I felt
Speaker 1: like every time I walked out there, somebody was looking
Speaker 1: at me. They weren't, of course, but I felt like
Speaker 1: I couldn't live in the space that I'd created, So
Speaker 1: it was just reframing all of that.
Speaker 2: Was the place you moved to, still within the same community,
Speaker 2: just closer to the ocean, to the water. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: just in terms of that for a moment, because it's
Speaker 2: a very common experience that you know, families, We do
Speaker 2: live in communities, of course, and everybody knows each other
Speaker 2: to a point, and it is gossip at the schoolgate.
Speaker 2: It definitely, there's no getting around that. It is gossip
Speaker 2: at the school gate for a while, and particularly if
Speaker 2: it's an affair and did you know it was this,
Speaker 2: it's like it's for other people, it's the TV show
Speaker 2: for a little while. Yeah, how do you get through
Speaker 2: that part of it? You know, the part of it
Speaker 2: because they will all move on and you know, they've
Speaker 2: all got their own shit going on in their own houses.
Speaker 2: But do you have advice for how to get through
Speaker 2: that part, like that part where you do feel like
Speaker 2: everybody's talking about you and they might be for a
Speaker 2: little while.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know what they will be, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: they will be because, as you say, it is gossip
Speaker 1: and it's people love to talk about other people because
Speaker 1: often things aren't going very well in their right. So
Speaker 1: what I would say to people is, and we like
Speaker 1: our stories to be simple, like we like it to
Speaker 1: be very like black and white about what happened and whose.
Speaker 2: Fault it was, and that's that. And you know, it's
Speaker 2: sort of a yeah, it's unsatisfying, really, isn't it?
Speaker 1: Oh? It really is? But I mean, to be honest,
Speaker 1: I mean, I've got to take responsibility for some of
Speaker 1: the things in in our marriage that weren't perfect either,
Speaker 1: Like I certainly don't tell this story and hold no
Speaker 1: fault in that. Yeah, of course. But what I would
Speaker 1: say to people is the gossip says more about them
Speaker 1: than it does about you. It will go away and
Speaker 1: you might be top of mind for a couple of weeks,
Speaker 1: but they're going to forget about that, and they're going
Speaker 1: to start to talk about someone else. Be brave. Be brave,
Speaker 1: and by saying that, feel good about yourself, whatever that
Speaker 1: looks and feels like for you, there's moments of joy
Speaker 1: that you're going to capture in times throughout the day.
Speaker 1: Really go with that instead of sinking into the story
Speaker 1: and being caught in that loop of that story continuously,
Speaker 1: because that loop will go on for as long as
Speaker 1: you will allow it to.
Speaker 2: So you mean, for example, if the story is and
Speaker 2: as you said, this is not what you're saying at all.
Speaker 2: But if the story is I was a good wife,
Speaker 2: I was building a good life and he screwed me
Speaker 2: over and he's ruined everything and he's a monster and
Speaker 2: nothing's ever going to be good in my life again,
Speaker 2: and I can't trust anybody, And that is the loop
Speaker 2: that goes round and round. Is there a place for
Speaker 2: letting yourself sink into that story for a little while
Speaker 2: before you start unpicking it or do you know what
Speaker 2: I mean?
Speaker 1: Like definitely, yes, yeah, because I think you have to
Speaker 1: acknowledge that, and if you don't sit in it, then
Speaker 1: you can't. Were's the acknowledgment And by sitting in it,
Speaker 1: we are really and it's hard to really hard to do.
Speaker 1: It's so easy for me to sit here today on
Speaker 1: the other side of a microphone and say this is
Speaker 1: what you should do, but let's acknowledge how really hard
Speaker 1: that is. And there are moments where you may not
Speaker 1: feel like you want to get out of bed anymore,
Speaker 1: and you may not have the energy to deal with
Speaker 1: life as you knew it, or finances or paying the
Speaker 1: bills or doing the grocery shopping, or cleaning the house
Speaker 1: or taking the dog for a whet to work or
Speaker 1: going to work, any of those things. Allow yourself some
Speaker 1: time to do that, and it is the only way
Speaker 1: to get through is to move through it. But yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: sitting the story because it's yours, and then over a
Speaker 1: period of time it becomes part of then who you
Speaker 1: are doesn't have to define you, It just becomes part
Speaker 1: of what that life then looks like for you.
Speaker 2: Because divorce can blow up lives in lots of ways, right,
Speaker 2: and one of those ways is financially because if suddenly
Speaker 2: your circumstances of life have to shift because you can't
Speaker 2: afford to live where you were living when you were together,
Speaker 2: if you know you've got to take on more work
Speaker 2: or go back to work to a job you didn't like,
Speaker 2: or a million different things, or suddenly you can't pay
Speaker 2: for things, and maybe you're not getting this that there
Speaker 2: are a lot of very practical things as well as
Speaker 2: the emotional things, right that can also keep you in
Speaker 2: a loop of fury in a way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, financial fear and scarcity is really
Speaker 1: really hard for women in particular. Often there is one
Speaker 1: person in a marriage or a relationship that deals with
Speaker 1: the finances, and by default it's often men generally, not always,
Speaker 1: but you know in it usually is from what I see,
Speaker 1: and that's really hard because you not only do you
Speaker 1: have my life is falling apart, It's like how am
Speaker 1: I actually going to survive? How am I going to
Speaker 1: keep the lights on?
Speaker 2: Absolutely? And those are questions you've got to figure out, yeah,
Speaker 2: answers to they are.
Speaker 1: And I think there's two things that often happen in
Speaker 1: high conflict family law situations is that kids and money
Speaker 1: gets weaponized and one will withhold the other until the other.
Speaker 1: You know, kids are withheld until the money comes and
Speaker 1: vice versa. And it's ugly, and that's the ugliest of ugly,
Speaker 1: right So, but it happens, and it still happens. And
Speaker 1: I know that we've got this movement that we are
Speaker 1: trying to get away from that, but still to this
Speaker 1: day it happens. And things that I often say to
Speaker 1: women is know your finances, Know what it costs to
Speaker 1: keep the lights on. You have to understand that, whether
Speaker 1: you want to or not, you've got to do it.
Speaker 1: So even if you're not going through a hard time
Speaker 1: in your marriage or relationship, know.
Speaker 2: That, yeah, absolutely arm yourself for that. After this shortbreak,
Speaker 2: Nikki tells me how she transformed her experience into the
Speaker 2: really meaningful work she does now, which is help other
Speaker 2: women navigate divorce and separation. And she's going to share
Speaker 2: her very best advice. So I want to talk to
Speaker 2: you about the point where you move from you know,
Speaker 2: dealing with literally your life being entirely upended, and you're
Speaker 2: putting yourself back together, you're swimming in the ocean and
Speaker 2: you're getting grounded. How do we move to a place
Speaker 2: where you're like, what I want to do is fill
Speaker 2: this gap that I felt in helping women through this,
Speaker 2: and I'm going to make this my life's work. Like
Speaker 2: what happened? How did that come about?
Speaker 1: I always had a My nature is to support and
Speaker 1: guide and help people. That's that's who I am and
Speaker 1: when I.
Speaker 2: Was a very you have a lovely energy about that.
Speaker 2: This is obviously the first time I've met you, but
Speaker 2: I can see exactly how that would how you would
Speaker 2: be a very reassuring presence to somebody in that situation.
Speaker 1: Thank you. But even when I was working in family law.
Speaker 1: It was I was always in I was the one
Speaker 1: that was always in trouble because it was never meeting
Speaker 1: the billable hours because I couldn't charge people for you know,
Speaker 1: the things that they needed.
Speaker 2: And so it was great lawyer.
Speaker 1: Then no, no, I didn't make anyone any money, that's
Speaker 1: for sure. So it was just just and then when
Speaker 1: this happened, it's just like, oh, this is what I
Speaker 1: need to do, you know. It was just it's almost
Speaker 1: like this light bulb moment. And I started coaching with
Speaker 1: Kim McGinnis and she had said and it wasn't about
Speaker 1: divorce coaching at that stage, and she's like, well, what
Speaker 1: is it that you want to do with career? And
Speaker 1: you've got this golden opportunity now that you can choose
Speaker 1: to do. You can go back and work in the
Speaker 1: system if that's what you want, which was never going
Speaker 1: to happen. But I'm like, I can help people get
Speaker 1: through this. She just did, and there's your answer. So
Speaker 1: we just started to map out this pathway that people
Speaker 1: could then start to take and understanding where the acute
Speaker 1: times were, what did you or how do you get
Speaker 1: through that? And then what is it that you need next,
Speaker 1: and putting all of those stringing all of those things together,
Speaker 1: so like your self care and your children, your finances
Speaker 1: and your legals, and your nutrition and your health and
Speaker 1: your fitness, and just stringing all of that together and going, Okay,
Speaker 1: how do we look at this as a whole person
Speaker 1: rather than just ship my marriages over. I need to
Speaker 1: get a lawyer, and I need to get a divorce,
Speaker 1: and I need to sort out my property and my
Speaker 1: kids the end, goodbye. So it started to, you know,
Speaker 1: think about that, and then I did a bit more training,
Speaker 1: and I did some high conflict training, and I just
Speaker 1: threw it out there and I thought, well, you know what,
Speaker 1: either worker, it won't and it's been the best thing
Speaker 1: that could have happened for me. How'd I have stayed
Speaker 1: in the marriage? There is no I can safely say
Speaker 1: that I wouldn't be doing the work that I'm doing now.
Speaker 2: That you obviously find very fulfilling.
Speaker 1: I love it, I absolutely love it, and it's so
Speaker 1: it's such a beautiful feeling for me to then have
Speaker 1: somebody that can come to me trust that. One. I
Speaker 1: have the practical side of things, I have the professional
Speaker 1: side of but I've also have the personal side where
Speaker 1: I can go. I know exactly where you're at, and
Speaker 1: I know that it feels like it is not going
Speaker 1: to get any better. But I'm going here to tell
Speaker 1: you that. Come back to me in a little while,
Speaker 1: and I will guarantee you that you're going to feel
Speaker 1: a whole different person in time.
Speaker 2: To come tell me. I mean, obviously you've got a
Speaker 2: whole program and course around this, and you've got your
Speaker 2: own podcast, and we'll link to all those in the
Speaker 2: show notes. But you said before, like a couple of
Speaker 2: really helpful tips to people who might be listening to
Speaker 2: this who are finding themselves where you were. You mentioned
Speaker 2: before about communication. Do you have anything else that you
Speaker 2: just think of? The golden rules that we get wrong
Speaker 2: in this moment of crisis. Definitely communication, So sit on
Speaker 2: the communication on the cause. Your advice to write that
Speaker 2: email that you wrote that you were senting but not
Speaker 2: send is that the advice.
Speaker 1: Absolutely write the email, but don't write it in your
Speaker 1: actual email, because you know chances are that you might
Speaker 1: just accidentally hits end on that. Write it out in
Speaker 1: your notes, your journal, whatever that looks like for you,
Speaker 1: however you want to do that, write it out, but
Speaker 1: write it out exactly as you want to say it,
Speaker 1: and then you can go back and look at that
Speaker 1: twenty four hours. At the very least, nothing needs to
Speaker 1: happen before then. Nothing is the emergency that needs to
Speaker 1: happen before then, and give yourself the gift of time
Speaker 1: to do it. Then reframe it and what I there's
Speaker 1: some really great tips from a man called Bill Eddie
Speaker 1: and he calls it the Biff method, and it's called
Speaker 1: brief informative, friendly infirm. So when you write your email,
Speaker 1: you keep it brief. So two topics at.
Speaker 2: Minimum, we need to we're doing for the school.
Speaker 1: Holidays, yes, the end informative this.
Speaker 2: I'm going to be taking the kids to nanas at
Speaker 2: blah on this date yep, yep.
Speaker 1: And this is when I propose that the kids come
Speaker 1: to you. And then friendly. So the friendly is just
Speaker 1: the high and the buy and firm is that you
Speaker 1: give a deadline to come back to you with or
Speaker 1: you know, I'd appreciate your response by five pm on
Speaker 1: the fourteenth of October, just to really set that boundary
Speaker 1: that this is what I need, this is what I'm suggesting,
Speaker 1: this is when I need it by and then let's
Speaker 1: have another conversation about that. And I think that you
Speaker 1: can take that forward with you in any anything that
Speaker 1: you do, whether it's acute or whether it is like
Speaker 1: later on in your separation or your divorce. And then
Speaker 1: I think, look after yourself. It's really easy to sit
Speaker 1: there and say look after yourself, and that's really hard
Speaker 1: because you're as a mom, your default is I need
Speaker 1: to look after the kids. But you know, in my experience,
Speaker 1: because I wasn't looking after myself, that was then having
Speaker 1: an impact on my kids that I didn't really know
Speaker 1: that it was. So find something anything, whether it is
Speaker 1: walking out of the room. If you're feeling overwhelmed, you
Speaker 1: can walk out of the room into an other room,
Speaker 1: stay there for five minutes, and come back in again. Outside,
Speaker 1: put your feet on the ground, barefoot, wherever you are.
Speaker 1: Those types of things will immediately give you some grounding.
Speaker 1: And breath is going to be your best friend, breathing
Speaker 1: through those moments of where you feel your nervous system
Speaker 1: starting to just wor and circulate. Breathing through that. And
Speaker 1: we can all do that no matter where we are,
Speaker 1: and no one else needs to know that you're doing it.
Speaker 2: I want to bring you. You know, this is six
Speaker 2: years ago that you were having this you know this email.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, and I know your life is in a
Speaker 2: very different place in lots of ways. But for you
Speaker 2: and your ex, I know that this year you had
Speaker 2: to survive something very difficult together when your youngest child
Speaker 2: became ill. Can you tell me a bit about that
Speaker 2: and dealing with that in this separated family.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So at the beginning of the year, my youngest
Speaker 1: was diagnosed with osteopsychoma, which is a type of bone cancer.
Speaker 1: How old was she eighteen? Yeah, it was the worst
Speaker 1: phone call that I have ever can't received. I was
Speaker 1: in Alice Springs at the time with my eldest daughter,
Speaker 1: and I just knew that something. You know, that phone
Speaker 1: call was he had rung and they've mentioned cancer because
Speaker 1: she basically fell or burnt down and broke her femur.
Speaker 1: And that's how we knew that she had cancer. And
Speaker 1: we then had to find a way to come back
Speaker 1: together and park any and I will say that prior
Speaker 1: to that, we you know, spend birth days together, We
Speaker 1: spend the big occasions together, formals, those things, and we
Speaker 1: we do it reasonably well.
Speaker 2: So you're you're its friendly, it's friendly, and you're.
Speaker 1: No no. So so this year found us back in
Speaker 1: that situation where we were theoretically having to co parent
Speaker 1: an adult child. You know, she whilst she was an adult,
Speaker 1: she had just turned eighteen and having to make those
Speaker 1: really big, scary decisions about what her life then looked like.
Speaker 1: So she needed, you know, she needed her support crow
Speaker 1: there and that is mum and dad and siblings. And
Speaker 1: we became a really tight unit when that happened, and
Speaker 1: we did it well for the most part. It was
Speaker 1: I'm sure, you know if you ask him the same question,
Speaker 1: Neither one of us really thought that we would spend
Speaker 1: that much time together, nor did we want to, to
Speaker 1: be honest, but there were some ground rules and we
Speaker 1: found ourselves having to live in an apartment away from
Speaker 1: home together.
Speaker 2: And she was having treatment.
Speaker 1: While she was having treatment, I stayed in the hospital
Speaker 1: with her every time she was admitted, and he would
Speaker 1: come and go. And then when she was having chemo,
Speaker 1: which is external to so when she was an outpatient,
Speaker 1: we would have to stay close by. So we would
Speaker 1: live in an apartment, the three of us, or you know,
Speaker 1: if the other siblings were around. So we did spend
Speaker 1: a lot of time together, and that was very It
Speaker 1: was really tricky to start with, but then it was like, okay, well,
Speaker 1: we need to be there for her first and foremost.
Speaker 1: And there were moments there where things were looking a
Speaker 1: little bit. We didn't know which way it was going
Speaker 1: to go, because you don't you just don't.
Speaker 2: You know, you I'm so sorry. I can't imagine.
Speaker 1: You're at the mercy of the medical teams and you
Speaker 1: trust in them. So there was moments there where there
Speaker 1: were you know, there were a lot of tears and
Speaker 1: there were you know, hugs because I haven't repartnered and
Speaker 1: he's there and it's like, you know, we've come together
Speaker 1: and it's going to be okay, and whichever way, we'll
Speaker 1: get through this. And when we were home, it was
Speaker 1: just like my door is open, because she was living
Speaker 1: at home with me. I said, you come and go
Speaker 1: as you please, because you know, you need to have
Speaker 1: that time with her when you want to have that
Speaker 1: time with her, and vice versa, so you know, come
Speaker 1: and go. And that was a really big moment for
Speaker 1: me because it was in my space and in my
Speaker 1: home and in something that I had created like a
Speaker 1: safe haven for myself, so inviting him back in on
Speaker 1: a day to day basis felt it was challenging. But
Speaker 1: I'm so pleased that we did that, and I'm so
Speaker 1: pleased that we did it well. And we you know,
Speaker 1: we've come to the end of the year, and you know,
Speaker 1: we've got a cancer free diagnosis a month ago, and
Speaker 1: I'm so happy to which is, you know, just the
Speaker 1: best news. And to be able to then come home
Speaker 1: from the hospital and crack a bottle of champagne and
Speaker 1: sit there and clink the glasses together and go, you
Speaker 1: know what, we did it.
Speaker 2: It's a great story, Niki Baka. I mean, it's not
Speaker 2: a great story that your daughter went through that and
Speaker 2: that you all went through that, But I can imagine
Speaker 2: a circumstance in which the tension between parents who've been
Speaker 2: through so much in that way would make that almost
Speaker 2: impossible situation entirely impossible for you both and for your daughter,
Speaker 2: and add this extra layer of tension and stress. So
Speaker 2: what an amazing and important thing you did.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm really I am really proud of us for
Speaker 1: doing that. There are moments in the hospital where you
Speaker 1: kind of just because you people ware right, So there
Speaker 1: were moments there where I could see that the parent,
Speaker 1: there's a couple and they are just really struggling, and
Speaker 1: the tension in them and then the tension in their
Speaker 1: child was it was really you could cut the air
Speaker 1: with a knife, and I'm like, I don't want that.
Speaker 1: I can't. We are focused on holy and soul of
Speaker 1: getting her well, and that is our only focus. Put
Speaker 1: your ego at the door, leave it at the door,
Speaker 1: and let's get down to business and we make sure
Speaker 1: that she's going to be okay.
Speaker 2: If this was a TV movie during those times in
Speaker 2: that apartment, you would have discussed all the ins and
Speaker 2: outs of what have happened. You would have forgiven or
Speaker 2: not each other. You may have I don't know, did
Speaker 2: you do all that stuff or was it just like
Speaker 2: so did what was going on with your daughter? Just
Speaker 2: put everything into perspective and it wasn't important.
Speaker 1: It wasn't important. It really just put it all into
Speaker 1: perspective and it's just like, Okay, we are being forced
Speaker 1: into spending this time together. We get a choice here.
Speaker 1: We either come back together and we do this for
Speaker 1: her and our family, or one of us is going
Speaker 1: to be not being able to be with her at
Speaker 1: that time, and that's not fair on her, and it's
Speaker 1: not fair on us as parents. And you know, there
Speaker 1: were moments there where where we're in the apartment and
Speaker 1: I'd put something into the washing machine to wash, and
Speaker 1: I walk it back into the laundry. In the next minute,
Speaker 1: it's on the floor and I'm like, why did you
Speaker 1: take my clothes out of the washing machine? Said, well,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to wash your clothes with my clothes,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh gosh, here we are again. It
Speaker 1: kind of takes you back. I'm like, I'm like, I'm
Speaker 1: so glad I'm not married to you anymore.
Speaker 2: I love that. Okay, before we go, I want to
Speaker 2: ask you this. I've seen you say in your ted
Speaker 2: talks that all of this experience and the experience of
Speaker 2: work that you do with other people have made you
Speaker 2: question the whole notion of marriage and long term monogamy
Speaker 2: and partnering. What are you where are you sitting on
Speaker 2: that now?
Speaker 1: Well, if I think you look back at you know
Speaker 1: when when we Western marriage became a thing, and I
Speaker 1: think it was I'll get the date wrong, but I
Speaker 1: think it was twenty thirty five BC or something. Back
Speaker 1: in those days, we had a life expectancy of thirty five,
Speaker 1: so marriages weren't meant to last that long. And now
Speaker 1: we are coming together and our life expectancy is almost
Speaker 1: double that, so expecting to spend that great chunk of
Speaker 1: time with one person, and I just don't think that,
Speaker 1: in what I know, what I've learned, what I've experienced,
Speaker 1: that we're just not meant to marry and mate for life.
Speaker 1: I will say though, that some people are meant to
Speaker 1: be together forever, and they are the extreme of the
Speaker 1: death do us part, and that is beautiful, and there
Speaker 1: are many marriages that do do that. For me. I
Speaker 1: don't think that that was going to be for me,
Speaker 1: and I think that that's okay to really recognize that.
Speaker 1: And it's one of these things that I do feel
Speaker 1: it is a bit of a rite of passage too, right,
Speaker 1: because we celebrate the weddings and we celebrate births, and
Speaker 1: we celebrate all of the big things, but we don't
Speaker 1: celebrate divorce as we have or we can cele break it,
Speaker 1: because it's still this a bit of a dark cloud
Speaker 1: that sits over that. So it's just changing that mindset
Speaker 1: to be able to go. Yeah, marriage can come and go,
Speaker 1: but the next phase of that can also be a
Speaker 1: really beautiful chapter two.
Speaker 2: I love that, Nikki. Thank you so much. We'll direct,
Speaker 2: as I say, everybody, to your work in links in
Speaker 2: our show notes, and I just really appreciate you sharing
Speaker 2: your story with us.
Speaker 1: Oh you're very welcome. Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 2: I had my heart in my mouth in the last
Speaker 2: parts of that conversation. What happened to Nicky's daughter, which
Speaker 2: is every parent's absolute nightmare, and the way that the
Speaker 2: family pulled in around her is so beautiful and so
Speaker 2: important and so affirming. And I know there are going
Speaker 2: to be people listening to this who are thinking they
Speaker 2: could never share an experience like that with their ex
Speaker 2: even under such extreme circumstances, because their relationships were just
Speaker 2: so toxic or maybe abusive, or their split was so bitter,
Speaker 2: so acrimonious. And of course that's okay too. You've got
Speaker 2: to look after yourself. But if you want to hear
Speaker 2: more about mid relationships, we've got you. You can scroll
Speaker 2: back in the feed and listen to Gina Chick talking
Speaker 2: about letting her husband Lee go so that he could
Speaker 2: have more children after the death of their three year
Speaker 2: old daughter, Blaze. Or Christine Arnu talking about the kind
Speaker 2: of split that leaves you crying in bed for weeks
Speaker 2: and allowing her teenage kids to care for her. Or
Speaker 2: Leslie Morgan about walking away from a sexless marriage and
Speaker 2: rediscovering pleasure and lots of orgasms at fifty. I've got
Speaker 2: enormous thanks and appreciation for Nicki for being so vulnerable
Speaker 2: and sharing that remarkable story. I know it'll be familiar
Speaker 2: to lots of you. You can find out more about
Speaker 2: her and her work in the link in our show notes.
Speaker 2: And look, I know that divorces are much more than breakups,
Speaker 2: but sometimes a breakup song is exactly what you need.
Speaker 2: And we've got some suggestions from the talented mid team.
Speaker 2: Our executive producer Nama Brown says Exile by Taylor Swis
Speaker 2: is her go to for ugly crying. Our producer Charlie
Speaker 2: Blackman says, lover you should have come over by Jeff
Speaker 2: Buckley is hers, which is extraordinarily gen x of her
Speaker 2: considering she's a zee. And Tom Lyon, who is responsible
Speaker 2: for us seamless audio production, says the scientist by coldplay
Speaker 2: me you can't go past against all odds facts. Thank
Speaker 2: you mids and goodbye