Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mea podcast.
Speaker 2: Mama Mer acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello, Hello, and welcome
Speaker 2: to Mama Mina out Loud. It's what women are actually
Speaker 2: talking about on Monday, the twenty fourth of June.
Speaker 1: I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm Mea Friedman.
Speaker 3: And I'm Jesse Stevens. I'm back from my European holidays.
Speaker 2: I'm making an applause.
Speaker 3: Crowdgo wild, thank you.
Speaker 4: Look.
Speaker 3: I've had a few out louders message saying how the
Speaker 3: flight go.
Speaker 4: I've been quiet. There's a reason why I've been quiet, because.
Speaker 3: We were thoughts and prayers, thoughts like, well, your thoughts
Speaker 3: and prayers.
Speaker 1: Didn't help my thoughts and my prayers.
Speaker 3: It's going to come up on the best and worst
Speaker 3: segment on Friday's episode. Everyone can take a little guess
Speaker 3: as to which category will fall into.
Speaker 5: I was really bummed that you didn't have Wi Fi
Speaker 5: on the flight because I want to constant update.
Speaker 3: I had a little bit of Wi Fi. Luca was
Speaker 3: getting updates. I'll tell you that he was getting up
Speaker 3: all day, all fourteen hours of that second leg. On
Speaker 3: tomorrow's subscriber episode, I'm going to do a big kind.
Speaker 1: Of catch up about the we want to hear about.
Speaker 3: True A real highlight was when I was so jet
Speaker 3: lagged when we landed that I found myself at two
Speaker 3: am holding Luner upside down.
Speaker 4: So there'll be nice tidbits. There was a hospital visit.
Speaker 4: There's so much I need to tell you guys about.
Speaker 5: Wait, yeah, yeah, wouldn't be Jesse Stevens holiday at a
Speaker 5: hospital visit.
Speaker 3: I was actually relieved when we ended up in the
Speaker 3: French hospital. Oh thank god. All right, we have done
Speaker 3: the hospital. Now we can get on with our holiday.
Speaker 2: On the show today, two out loud obsessions collided in
Speaker 2: a rainbow explosion of sparkly corsets and daggy dad dancing
Speaker 2: on the weekend. Yes, we're talking about that time Taylor
Speaker 2: Swift granted an audience to the future King of England,
Speaker 2: also one of Australia's most famous feminists, our first female
Speaker 2: Prime Minister, thinks we have failed to bring young men
Speaker 2: along with us on our mind towards equality.
Speaker 1: Is she right?
Speaker 2: And do you need a live coach, sweetie or do
Speaker 2: you want to be one? The great live coach pyramid scheme,
Speaker 2: but first Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 4: In case he missed it.
Speaker 3: A Kiwi woman is suing her ex for not giving
Speaker 3: her a ride to the airport and she is my idol.
Speaker 3: A New Zealand woman has taken her boyfriend to small
Speaker 3: Claims court over a broken promise to drive her to
Speaker 3: the airport and watch her dogs during her trip, arguing
Speaker 3: that the agreement represented an oral contract. She was going
Speaker 3: to a concert with friends and he agreed to take
Speaker 3: her to the airport between ten and ten fifteen am,
Speaker 3: but then he did not and she missed her flight.
Speaker 1: Ooh, was he just late or he like ghosted her?
Speaker 4: I think he ghosted her.
Speaker 5: They met together six years. I thought that was interesting.
Speaker 5: This wasn't someone she just met on the weekend.
Speaker 4: He really didn't want to take her to the airport.
Speaker 3: The Disputes Tribunal where this woman took her case looks
Speaker 3: at smaller claims and she basically wanted financial damages for
Speaker 3: her missed flight, but also shuttle.
Speaker 2: She had to catch to the airport.
Speaker 4: Actually no longer had a.
Speaker 1: Lift and she had to put a dogs in boarding.
Speaker 1: I think was.
Speaker 3: Looking it is expensive, especially last minute. What was she
Speaker 3: to do she had to go to her concert.
Speaker 1: I hope she didn't miss it. Sy're going to drive you.
Speaker 4: No one wants to get the bus, not to the airport.
Speaker 3: The tribunal basically said that sometimes friends or romantic partners
Speaker 3: break promises, but that's none of their business, and she
Speaker 3: will not be reimbursed by anyone for the inconvenience caused.
Speaker 3: I feel inspired to sue a lot of people, but
Speaker 3: most of all, I just love that not dropping someone
Speaker 3: off at the airport is in the realm of criminal
Speaker 3: charges where it belongs.
Speaker 4: Do you drop people at the airport?
Speaker 1: I do?
Speaker 5: You know I do, because I've dropped you at the airport,
Speaker 5: But no one else in my family does. No, they don't.
Speaker 5: I love an airport drop off, but not as much
Speaker 5: as I love an airport pick up. In fact, when
Speaker 5: you were you home on Sunday, I.
Speaker 3: Was going, look, I love yer, but if she is
Speaker 3: at that gate, I'm just.
Speaker 2: It's going to know that.
Speaker 1: I knew that, and I'm self censored.
Speaker 5: So I was saying that I was I said to Luca,
Speaker 5: I was just thinking about and I was going to say,
Speaker 5: but I decided no, that you need some time as
Speaker 5: a family and I just said I was thinking about
Speaker 5: when Jesse and he just goes.
Speaker 2: Nope, you know this is like this story is one
Speaker 2: of the texts in the canon of my life is
Speaker 2: when Harry met Sally. The greatest movie ever made and
Speaker 2: the wisdom in there that Harry tells Sally about. He
Speaker 2: bumps into her an airport and he goes, oh, that
Speaker 2: relationship must be new, because she's like kissing her guy
Speaker 2: at the gate and.
Speaker 1: She's about to get on a plane.
Speaker 2: And she goes, how did you know that? We've been
Speaker 2: since the other three months? How did you know that?
Speaker 2: And he goes, because you only ever take people to
Speaker 2: the airport at the beginning of a relationship. And he said,
Speaker 2: that's why I never take people to the airport at
Speaker 2: the beginning of a relationship, so they can never turn
Speaker 2: around to me and say, you used to take me
Speaker 2: to the airport, do you?
Speaker 4: Because your partner travels are bitch?
Speaker 2: No, never ever pick like I like a pickup, but
Speaker 2: I don't drop now.
Speaker 3: Oh, there's something so sad about making your own way
Speaker 3: to and from an airport.
Speaker 1: That I've got.
Speaker 2: But I know people who feel that way.
Speaker 1: I don't.
Speaker 2: I don't. I do like to be met at long distance.
Speaker 2: Oh my god. When I arrived at Manchester and if
Speaker 2: my family weren't there, I would be a mess right
Speaker 2: long distance for sure, But like if you're flying to
Speaker 2: Melbourne or whatever, like I wouldn't expect anyone to pick
Speaker 2: me up or drop me off.
Speaker 1: Oh no, but I'm a slut for an airport reunion.
Speaker 1: I love it. Yeah, for like a long haul, not
Speaker 1: short haul.
Speaker 3: She was promised, she was promised, she was promised that
Speaker 3: he would drive her. And I think that this could
Speaker 3: possibly be a new podcast idea for us, which is
Speaker 3: petty crimes. Yes. Can you imagine if out Louders just
Speaker 3: were like, I have a petty crime and we were
Speaker 3: the tribunal like Judge Dude liked except.
Speaker 4: Its us and people just say whether they're guilty or not.
Speaker 4: I declare him very guilty.
Speaker 2: I agree fully guilty.
Speaker 5: Out Louders, do you think we want to hear from
Speaker 5: you about your petty crime?
Speaker 2: We could turn it into a song like I'm looking at.
Speaker 5: The intersection of Holly in my Hyperfixations. Happened over the
Speaker 5: weekend with members of the royal family attending the Taylor
Speaker 5: Swift concert in London and having a sing and a
Speaker 5: dance and a backstage selfie with Taylor herself afterwards the
Speaker 5: ultimate collab, which was excellent for both brands. May it
Speaker 5: be said it was very mutually beneficial. I thought it
Speaker 5: was very well received by the Internet, who really frothed
Speaker 5: over Prince William dancing along with two of his small
Speaker 5: royal children, Prince George and Princess Charlotte in a posh
Speaker 5: box overlooking the masses at Wimbley Stadium. Fun fact, this
Speaker 5: is not the first time the pair have met backstage.
Speaker 5: They did a duet Prince William and Taylor Swift in
Speaker 5: a Kensington Palace charity event with bon John Bovy Try
Speaker 5: again Bon Jovi. They sang Living on a Prayer in
Speaker 5: twenty thirteen. Here's a little piece of that.
Speaker 2: You go here, Taylor.
Speaker 4: Did we need to hear that? Carry out? It was
Speaker 4: like when mea wants to sing to us.
Speaker 5: I thought that was good. Holly, were you wearing your pants?
Speaker 5: Were excitement?
Speaker 2: So excited? It was really funny because my Instagram feed
Speaker 2: at the weekend was just famous people in London seeing
Speaker 2: Taylor Swift. And I mean no one in Australia needs
Speaker 2: to be told this because we've been through it ourselves,
Speaker 2: but it's that moment where everybody's there and there's a
Speaker 2: sort of real zeitgeistee moment of who's hot. Because all
Speaker 2: the celebrities I saw wanted their picture taken with Nicola
Speaker 2: Cocklan from Bridgeton, so because she was there. So there's
Speaker 2: hern Karra Delavin and her and j VN and her
Speaker 2: and all these people, and I was just like, she's
Speaker 2: obviously the person you want to sit next to your
Speaker 2: box because no is invited into the Royal Box where
Speaker 2: William was dad dancing, and I thought.
Speaker 1: I thought he was quite good at his dancing was terrible.
Speaker 2: One of my friends just message and said it makes
Speaker 2: me crawl up inside my bumhole a little bit, and
Speaker 2: I know what she meant. I thought he was.
Speaker 3: Quite I liked imagining that he did that because it
Speaker 3: was to shake it off. And I was thinking when
Speaker 3: Spare came out and when he had a rough trot,
Speaker 3: I imagine him in his palation doing his little jig.
Speaker 3: And you'll notice in that video Charlotte and George and
Speaker 3: know where to be saying it's just William.
Speaker 4: He's there on his own.
Speaker 5: Sometimes, like when you're at the concert I know neither
Speaker 5: review went, but it just it comes out of you.
Speaker 2: You can't only help it, you can't help it. I
Speaker 2: think this is brilliant. We talked last week about Kate's
Speaker 2: sort of semi return to public life. She came out
Speaker 2: and did the trooping of the color to let everybody
Speaker 2: know that she's you know, she's halfway through her cancer treatment,
Speaker 2: and we were saying how we thought that was brilliantly handled.
Speaker 2: I think this is poignant pr brilliance because there's something
Speaker 2: about the dad taking his kids to see he's swifty.
Speaker 2: I'm sure that she Kate would have been there if
Speaker 2: she was able to be there, so it was beautiful
Speaker 2: that he took them. And then I think that the
Speaker 2: daggy dad dancing with such abandon in such a public
Speaker 2: spot is very endearing.
Speaker 4: It was so human.
Speaker 3: And to see him the smile on his face in
Speaker 3: that selfie with Taylor Swift, I've never seen him smile.
Speaker 2: And she posted it, and she doesn't usually post all
Speaker 2: her celebrity selfies.
Speaker 1: Does she?
Speaker 5: No, she doesn't usually take a lot of selfies. Probably,
Speaker 5: but also someone took a photo of her taking the
Speaker 5: selfie that was probably what you saw, which is interesting,
Speaker 5: which I think it was probably her publicist Tree Paint,
Speaker 5: or maybe Travis.
Speaker 2: Because he was in one of the pictures too. Right,
Speaker 2: So this worked so well on me that we always
Speaker 2: talk on the show about how I'm obsessed with the royals,
Speaker 2: but I'm not a royalist, right, I'm a Republican. I
Speaker 2: generally think off with the heads, et cetera. But when
Speaker 2: I was watching this on Saturday, the magic it was
Speaker 2: working on me. I was going, Oh, I think he'll
Speaker 2: be a good king. Oh, I don't know, Maybe we
Speaker 2: don't need to rush that republican business because look, he's
Speaker 2: so human.
Speaker 4: It's like on my mad it'd be great on my money.
Speaker 2: Look, I definitely worked so no notes on the Wills
Speaker 2: and Kate pr team that since the stuff up of
Speaker 2: March and the photo shop incident, Oh I forgot that
Speaker 2: really got their shit together. Because also it was Wills's
Speaker 2: birthday when he went to Taylor Swift and Kate posted
Speaker 2: some beautiful pictures of him and the kids jumping off
Speaker 2: sand dunes and stuff and just looking which is very different, Yeah,
Speaker 2: very different.
Speaker 3: I loved seeing Charlotte and George with their big smiles too,
Speaker 3: because I thought they've had a really rough time as well,
Speaker 3: and the idea that their mum has been seeking. I
Speaker 3: know that we can look at this as a story
Speaker 3: and unpack it in terms of the media scrutiny, but
Speaker 3: there's a family who's in pain, and so to see
Speaker 3: that as a joyful moment and Charlotte has her sparkles
Speaker 3: on and you just know that she was like it.
Speaker 3: My first reaction to that, because we were texting about it,
Speaker 3: was Megan.
Speaker 4: Megan's gonna be pissed because Meghan.
Speaker 3: We know, asked Taylor to be on a podcast in
Speaker 3: Taylor's archetypes.
Speaker 4: Yes, Taylor couldn't. And then I.
Speaker 1: Remember Taylor wouldn't.
Speaker 2: Taylor doesn't do a lot of interviews. That does not
Speaker 2: even for Megan.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 3: So I saw that and I'm like, if I was
Speaker 3: the Princess of La and I had moved to La,
Speaker 3: I would think that Taylor was on my team and
Speaker 3: Taylor's on their team. And then I remembered that Megan
Speaker 3: Mirkael went to the Taylor Swift concept in La. I
Speaker 3: have no guess who wasn't in a VIP box. Guess
Speaker 3: who was with the common man?
Speaker 5: No, but that just to be clear, he wasn't in
Speaker 5: Taylor's box.
Speaker 1: Taylor's box is different. Okay, he was just enough.
Speaker 5: Posh Wembley box. So anyone go in, like if you've
Speaker 5: got enough money or you're invited.
Speaker 2: By well, let's be on this. He probably has a
Speaker 2: box at Wembley, like it's where all the football games are.
Speaker 4: But yeah, I'll say be a royal boxes. That Meghan
Speaker 4: didn't get.
Speaker 1: Herself Tail Swift, she did not.
Speaker 2: I think that what happened in the celebrity division of
Speaker 2: celebrities during the great Estrangement of Harry and Wills is
Speaker 2: that Megan maybe got Beyonce and Oprah she did, and
Speaker 2: that Will's got Taylor Swift and right now he's the winner.
Speaker 2: Who knows in the years time.
Speaker 1: No, Taylor did not. Meghan did not get Beyonce.
Speaker 2: She was at the Beyonce.
Speaker 5: She's a very good scene whose movie premiere? Did Beyonce
Speaker 5: come to Taylor and walk the red carpet Taylor and
Speaker 5: then Taylor to Beyonce?
Speaker 2: No, No, I mean Meghan got got Beyonce, and William
Speaker 2: and Kate got Taylor. Oh, I don't mean Taylor and
Speaker 2: Beyonce are beefing. They're amazing, But like in the celebrity division,
Speaker 2: Beyonce's team Meghan.
Speaker 5: Anyone who's kind of thinking what's going to be for
Speaker 5: my career would probably go with the the incumbents, don't.
Speaker 2: You think, because the Royals are on the nose, like
Speaker 2: this is what I mean. Like when I was watching
Speaker 2: William dancing and I was like, this is good for
Speaker 2: their brand, because really the Royals are a really naff brand. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and colonies privilege.
Speaker 3: In speaking of the dancing, because I was looking at
Speaker 3: William and then I was looking at the box right
Speaker 3: with all the celebrities. And I've watched that video one
Speaker 3: hundred times because every time you look at it, you
Speaker 3: spott a new one. You go, that's Amelia Clark, that
Speaker 3: is a Hemsworth, that is Greta Gowick. And I'm watching
Speaker 3: it and I realized that there is such a distinct
Speaker 3: difference between how British people dance and Americans dance. And
Speaker 3: Travis Kelcey has a very like every time I've seen
Speaker 3: him dance, he's got his arms up, he's doing a point.
Speaker 4: He's very frat party, very American. Yeah, very I'm in.
Speaker 3: A club usually like a beer in the other hand y, yes,
Speaker 3: And he just loves it. And it's just this confidence
Speaker 3: is olfa male thing? And then and Ashton Kutsch is
Speaker 3: doing the same dance right because he's with like one
Speaker 3: with one arm. He's there with Miller and Tom Cruise
Speaker 3: looks he was there on his own trading bracelets.
Speaker 4: But anyway, I love that. I love that Tom Crat.
Speaker 2: None of his children are talking to him, I know, no,
Speaker 2: he's cut them off.
Speaker 5: Sorry, Suri. I think he's fine with the others. But Suri,
Speaker 5: she was at prom. Where was he trading bracelets with
Speaker 5: young teenage girls who aren't his daughter?
Speaker 2: Why?
Speaker 5: Tom?
Speaker 1: Why?
Speaker 4: Look what?
Speaker 1: I Noticedn't ask him about that.
Speaker 3: I don't know, I know, but he was quite likable
Speaker 3: in this ten second video.
Speaker 4: But greta girl, well.
Speaker 3: The other the Brits, that Amelie Clark, they're doing this
Speaker 3: jig where they have their arms down because they're there
Speaker 3: and they do kind of a shimmy.
Speaker 1: It's a bit of a shimmy.
Speaker 3: It's very Hugh gran in love actually walking down the stairs.
Speaker 2: It's understated, quite committing to a fool.
Speaker 4: No no, no, because you're embarrassed by yourself.
Speaker 5: I thought William was really throwing it out.
Speaker 1: He was making some shapes.
Speaker 3: If you want to hear more about Taylor Swift's concept,
Speaker 3: then Mummy's entertainment podcast The Spill has unpacked the wave
Speaker 3: of celebrities that attended Taylor swift London show. Because now
Speaker 3: there's not only been one, there's been three and more
Speaker 3: celebrities are coming every night and I adjust the rotation.
Speaker 3: I care enormously so about so we will pop a
Speaker 3: link to their episode in our show notes.
Speaker 2: This month, Mumma Mia turned seventeen. We know birthdays aren't
Speaker 2: all that exciting when they're not well. Your birthday, there
Speaker 2: aren't enough presents, So we want to take this as
Speaker 2: a chance to give you a treat and say thank
Speaker 2: you for being on the ride with us.
Speaker 5: Right now, you can get twenty dollars off a yearly
Speaker 5: Mumma me a subscription.
Speaker 1: With the code out Loud Birthday.
Speaker 2: The offer is valid till the end of June and
Speaker 2: you will find all the details of how to do
Speaker 2: that in the show notes. Enjoy, my friends. Look, if
Speaker 2: you felt your brain shriveling up a little bit during
Speaker 2: that segment, it's okay. We've got you. You've got you
Speaker 2: with bringing it back with some smart chat about one
Speaker 2: of the smartest women Australia has ever produced. So I
Speaker 2: want to talk about a narrative that I'm seeing around
Speaker 2: a lot at the moment, the one that says that
Speaker 2: young men are feeling a bit jipped by feminism and
Speaker 2: the fear that it's all gone a bit too far.
Speaker 2: And the latest smart human talking about this is Julia Gillard.
Speaker 2: I just noticed that when I wrote the note in
Speaker 2: my script, I called it Julian Gillard, which I don't
Speaker 2: think she would appreciate the problem.
Speaker 4: I know you're half watching the William video.
Speaker 2: Julia is a great ex Prime minister. Let's be clear.
Speaker 2: She doesn't meddle. She's not in there like going.
Speaker 1: Out gold charge.
Speaker 2: Yeah, if I was in charge, blah blah. She's off
Speaker 2: having a very exciting third act doing good things for
Speaker 2: women all over the world. And look, she's also feeling
Speaker 2: a bit sorry for young men at the moment. In
Speaker 2: this interview that she gave to The Australian recently, they
Speaker 2: did like a cover story on her. They shot her
Speaker 2: in London. She's half the year in London, half the
Speaker 2: year in Australia. She's on the board of directors for
Speaker 2: this big sort of science y Medical Board there. She's
Speaker 2: also in charge of an organization called the Global Institute
Speaker 2: for Women's Leadership, which she founded, and it's based at
Speaker 2: a university in London and ANU in Canberra. Right, And
Speaker 2: when she was talking to The Australian, she was saying
Speaker 2: that that organization did some research lately and what it
Speaker 2: found was that the young men are pissed off with
Speaker 2: us and Julia and all of our kind. In this interview,
Speaker 2: Gilard was talking about gen Z and she was saying,
Speaker 2: how you know her famous misogyny speech. I think you'll
Speaker 2: all remember it. Here's a little bit.
Speaker 6: I will not be lectured about sexism and misogyny.
Speaker 2: By this man. I will not be.
Speaker 6: Lectured about and mithsogyny by this man, not now, not ever.
Speaker 6: The Leader of the Opposition says that people who hold
Speaker 6: sexist views and who are misogynists are not appropriate for
Speaker 6: high office. Well, I hope the Leader of the Opposition
Speaker 6: it's got a piece of paper and he is writing out.
Speaker 2: His resignation because if he wants to know.
Speaker 6: What misogyny looks like in modern Australia, he doesn't need
Speaker 6: a motion in the House of Representatives.
Speaker 2: He needs a Miro that's what he needs. Has become
Speaker 2: so iconic to that generation that it's on t shirts
Speaker 2: and tea towels, and she's in people have often come
Speaker 2: up and show her their tattoos of it and stuff,
Speaker 2: and she's like, it's amazing. But she says there's also
Speaker 2: a portion of that generation who feels that either gender
Speaker 2: equality has been reached or it's gone so far that
Speaker 2: it's now discriminating against men. She said, there's certainly a
Speaker 2: hardening of attitudes amongst young men that it's all gone
Speaker 2: too far, and for people like myself who've been an
Speaker 2: active feminist and campaigning in various ways on gender equality
Speaker 2: for literally a lifetime, we've got to be self critical
Speaker 2: and analytical about our obvious inability to take young men
Speaker 2: in particular on this journey with her. What the research
Speaker 2: found was that it was done across thirty one countries,
Speaker 2: and it showed that fifty one percent of respondents asked
Speaker 2: believe that men are being asked to do too much
Speaker 2: to support gender equality, and that sixty percent of Gen
Speaker 2: Z men, so that's men aged eighteen to twenty seven,
Speaker 2: say that they believe women's equality has gone too far,
Speaker 2: which is a much larger proportion than any other generation.
Speaker 2: It's clearly landed in a way that is felt as
Speaker 2: exclusionary or diminishing for particularly young men, she said, and
Speaker 2: it's essential that men and women have this conversation. How
Speaker 2: do we reshape the way we are campaigning for gender
Speaker 2: equality so that we're explaining what I deeply believe to
Speaker 2: be true, which is that a gender equal world will
Speaker 2: be better for everyone? Jesse, How do we reshape the
Speaker 2: way we are campaigning so that we are explaining that
Speaker 2: a gender equal world will be better for everyone?
Speaker 3: I think this is really smart, and I agree with
Speaker 3: everything that she says. I don't think it is actually
Speaker 3: about feminism going too far, or feminism having failed, or
Speaker 3: any criticism of female empowerment. I think that would be
Speaker 3: to misread what she's saying. It's about looking at what's happened.
Speaker 3: I mean, most of the twentieth century was so focused
Speaker 3: on reimagining what it is to be a woman and
Speaker 3: broadening that and remolding it and unpacking it imperfectly but
Speaker 3: in exciting and revolutionary ways, and we just didn't do
Speaker 3: the same to what it means to be a man
Speaker 3: like that still has remained fairly fairly stuck. And I
Speaker 3: think what she's looking at is the language of feminism,
Speaker 3: what's existing in the zeitgeist, and whether or not it's working,
Speaker 3: and the message that.
Speaker 4: Is intended and how it's landing. Right.
Speaker 3: So it's basic psychology that if you keep yelling at
Speaker 3: a three year old that they're naughty, then they will
Speaker 3: become naughty. That if you corner someone for long enough
Speaker 3: and tell them how bad they are, then they've only
Speaker 3: got one way to go and they can sort of
Speaker 3: lash out. And that sounds like I'm blaming feminism for
Speaker 3: men's actions, and it's absolutely not what I'm doing.
Speaker 2: In that analogy. Who's doing the yelling and saying that
Speaker 2: they're bad?
Speaker 4: You know what I mean?
Speaker 3: Because I don't think that feminism is necessarily the dominant
Speaker 3: discourse either, Like I think that there's a lot of
Speaker 3: messaging happening, but I think it is a discourse that
Speaker 3: pervades like education young men. What I think is missing
Speaker 3: from that is any vision of what it is to
Speaker 3: be a man or like a good man. If there
Speaker 3: are messages, and I suppose this has a lot to
Speaker 3: do with the news more so than I would say feminism,
Speaker 3: But like the front page of the paper. It's it's
Speaker 3: all like domestic violence, and that's a story that needs
Speaker 3: to be told all the time. We've got domestic violence,
Speaker 3: we've got sexual assault. These things are really important stories.
Speaker 3: But if you tell men that they as a cohort,
Speaker 3: are rapists and that they are.
Speaker 1: Violent or rapists in waiting.
Speaker 3: In waiting exactly, and that they are violent, and if
Speaker 3: we provide no alternative image of what it is to
Speaker 3: be a man, then of course Andrew Tate is going
Speaker 3: to look appealing because he's the first man who has
Speaker 3: a difference, who was potentially said to them, here's what
Speaker 3: it is to be strong, to be alpha, to be not.
Speaker 1: A shame but a man.
Speaker 2: But his version of masculinity is in opposition to femininity, right,
Speaker 2: and so are a lot of.
Speaker 1: These guys who are in feminism.
Speaker 2: Well well, women full stop yea. And she she says
Speaker 2: this in the thing She's I mean, Julia Gillard says
Speaker 2: this in the interview. She says that, you know, the
Speaker 2: Andrew Tates have stepped into the space. They set up
Speaker 2: everything about masculinity as basically or position to women, so
Speaker 2: that a powerful man subjugates women, they are in charge
Speaker 2: of them.
Speaker 1: So that it's like a zero sum game.
Speaker 5: So any power or equality that women get comes at
Speaker 5: the expense of men.
Speaker 2: Yes, and they're weaponizing that message it's not true. My
Speaker 2: question about this is right, is that you're in the
Speaker 2: analogy where it's like feminism has gone too far. We're
Speaker 2: yelling at men, telling them about all the time. So
Speaker 2: what do we think they're going to do? Is how
Speaker 2: do you solve issues without airing what the issues are? Right? So,
Speaker 2: when women who now have more microphones both literally and
Speaker 2: figuratively than they've ever had before and are so are
Speaker 2: speaking in open ways for the first time they ever
Speaker 2: have before about all the issues both little and really big,
Speaker 2: that affect their lives, that have to do with the
Speaker 2: fact that as women, they often aren't afforded the same
Speaker 2: amount of safety, opportunity, whatever it is we like, as
Speaker 2: I say, from micro to macro issues, how do we
Speaker 2: allow women to say all that if we have to
Speaker 2: keep telling them to not upset the men?
Speaker 4: I don't think it's I don't think it's about that.
Speaker 3: I think it's just about balancing it with some sort
Speaker 3: of with role models.
Speaker 2: And whose job is that?
Speaker 5: But hang on, you've got to bring people along with you.
Speaker 5: When you want to make cultural or social change in
Speaker 5: a democracy and in a culture, you have to instead
Speaker 5: of just imposing it upon people against their will without
Speaker 5: them understanding the benefits, you have to bring them along.
Speaker 5: Any social movement.
Speaker 2: Does that, which is what she's suggesting we've failed at right, Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I think that I under well.
Speaker 5: She says that we've been so focused on getting our
Speaker 5: voices out there and rebalancing some of the things that
Speaker 5: have been really terrible for women that it's not and
Speaker 5: it's not even that the pendulums come to fights that
Speaker 5: we haven't explained the better it's of gender equality to men.
Speaker 5: Because this is a generation Generation Z and the generation
Speaker 5: behind them have grown up marinating in the Me Too
Speaker 5: movement conversations about violence against women, words like misogyny. A
Speaker 5: generation ago, the word misogyny wasn't understood or thrown around
Speaker 5: the idea of believe women, the idea of even women
Speaker 5: having a voice. So it's been a time of massive
Speaker 5: social change, and for us, it's great that people are
Speaker 5: now talking about these things. And sometimes when everyone gets
Speaker 5: very down on oh it's terrible and things have never
Speaker 5: been worse for women, that's not true. Things have never
Speaker 5: been better for women, but we've got a long way
Speaker 5: to go and we're not finished.
Speaker 1: But I think that while we can.
Speaker 5: See the benefits of feminism and equality, what's in it
Speaker 5: for men?
Speaker 3: Now?
Speaker 5: What Glorious dynam has always said is that gender roles
Speaker 5: are prisons for men as well. Yes, they have will
Speaker 5: to walk up and someone brings you coffee, but there's
Speaker 5: still prisons. And and our Crab's written about this a
Speaker 5: lot in The Wife Drought, where a woman's life can
Speaker 5: look very very different now to generations go, but a
Speaker 5: man's life and the expectations of what a man is
Speaker 5: is still pretty much the same as their grandfathers or
Speaker 5: their great grandfathers in terms of you should be a breadwinner,
Speaker 5: you shouldn't be looking after the kids, you should go
Speaker 5: out to work, all of those things. So while our
Speaker 5: worlds have opened up, and some would say we now
Speaker 5: have the burden of having to have their career and
Speaker 5: do everything at home and raise the children like we
Speaker 5: always have.
Speaker 1: Men's kind of haven't.
Speaker 5: And our lives aren't going to get better until their
Speaker 5: lives get better too.
Speaker 2: But surely they're saying that there's have like surely the
Speaker 2: issue with this narrative that I hear everywhere at the minute,
Speaker 2: and some of it's backed up by some very compelling
Speaker 2: statistics about young men feeling lost. Yeah, they think their
Speaker 2: lives have changed. They think that we've taken stuff from them.
Speaker 2: When I say we, I mean women broadly. They're not
Speaker 2: so saying, oh, I still get to do all the
Speaker 2: things that my dad got to do, and that In fact,
Speaker 2: they're saying the opposite. They're saying, I don't know what
Speaker 2: my role is now because I thought I was meant
Speaker 2: to be the breadwinner, the protector, the keeper, the worker,
Speaker 2: and yet apparently that's not needed anymore. Right, this is
Speaker 2: the narrative that's out there, So I don't know if
Speaker 2: that's true, because they.
Speaker 5: Don't have the role models for how that can look
Speaker 5: in a positive way. Right, So it's like, you might
Speaker 5: not have to be the breadwinner and whatever, but what
Speaker 5: else can you be? It doesn't help when you've got
Speaker 5: so called feminists. And I don't hate even calling them that,
Speaker 5: because I just think they do such a disservice to
Speaker 5: what feminism is. Who are out there talking about hating
Speaker 5: men and men being rapists and male tears and being
Speaker 5: disparaging about men and laughing about the idea of not
Speaker 5: all men and insisting that it actually is all men
Speaker 5: that are the problem. That doesn't help either because it's
Speaker 5: very polarizing and very ostracizing, but it's also it's not see.
Speaker 2: One of the reason why I get defensive in this argument,
Speaker 2: which is like feminism has gone too far. Women have
Speaker 2: asked for too much. Now the men are lost. Is
Speaker 2: I'm like, Okay, then the men can step in and
Speaker 2: sort this out, right, because I feel like otherwise this
Speaker 2: narrative is it just keeps landing back on us, right,
Speaker 2: and which bits of equality and the advances that we've
Speaker 2: made over the past fifty years are we giving back
Speaker 2: to make the men feel better? Right?
Speaker 1: I don't thinking of that.
Speaker 5: But then that's you you agreeing that it's a zero
Speaker 5: some game. I'm just saying that.
Speaker 2: No, no, I'm not agreeing it's a zero some game.
Speaker 2: But I've said that's how it's being presented in this discussion.
Speaker 2: And so we're saying we need more good role models
Speaker 2: for men, which we one hundred percent do. So men off,
Speaker 2: you go sort that shit out. That's that's my position
Speaker 2: on this. Is there and there are lots There's an
Speaker 2: amazing organization that's here and in other parts of the
Speaker 2: all called man Cave. It's run by this amazing young
Speaker 2: man called Hunter Johnson. I've heard him on in this
Speaker 2: whole period of discussion about male violence. I've heard him
Speaker 2: on the radio, and se him on TV, and see
Speaker 2: him on social media everywhere. Brilliant role models doing incredible things.
Speaker 2: Let's hear them and lift them up instead of, you know,
Speaker 2: leaving the vacuum for the andrew Tates. But what I
Speaker 2: won't cop is that this is somehow feminism's problem. I
Speaker 2: won't cop that because I think that any group of
Speaker 2: people who have to share power get defensive and upset
Speaker 2: about it.
Speaker 5: Don't you think any social movement needs to win hearts
Speaker 5: and minds though well to succeed.
Speaker 2: I think that they have. I mean you're saying, I
Speaker 2: don't think that men's roles have changed. There are lots
Speaker 2: of men who now have the opportunity to live really
Speaker 2: different lives and if that works for them, it does.
Speaker 2: But if they're still struggling with this idea of well,
Speaker 2: what does masculinity mean? If it's not all about me?
Speaker 2: And what we've been talking about a lot lately, is
Speaker 2: this kind of quiet resurgence of women who are saying, well, actually,
Speaker 2: I don't want to do it all, you know, I think,
Speaker 2: isn't the whole point of it is that now we
Speaker 2: have more options?
Speaker 5: Jesse, do you think that, in quite rightly pushing back
Speaker 5: against what we call toxic masculinity, which is like sexism
Speaker 5: and you know, being disrespectful to women, that we've actually
Speaker 5: pushed back against all masculine Yeah, and demonized some just
Speaker 5: male behaviors and not necessarily toxic any sense.
Speaker 3: And I know this with friends who you know, are
Speaker 3: raising adolescent boys or work with adolescent boys. Any discussion
Speaker 3: around what it means to be a man is very fraught.
Speaker 4: It sounds toxic.
Speaker 3: You know, if you picked up a book that was
Speaker 3: like masculinity different types, or like, you know, how to
Speaker 3: be a man, you'd be like, oh my god, this
Speaker 3: is not good. So it's like we've dropped the toxic
Speaker 3: and masculinity is seen as inherently bad. And if you're
Speaker 3: told that part of you that is intrinsic to your
Speaker 3: sense of identity is bad, then I know what you're saying, Holly,
Speaker 3: but I also think we've got to look objectively at
Speaker 3: what's happening, at the Andrew tape phenomenon, at the fact
Speaker 3: that men do feel ostracized from this conversation, and try
Speaker 3: and work out how to make this work. The civil
Speaker 3: rights movement, which is just such an incredible example of
Speaker 3: and not that that's finished or you know, achieved everything
Speaker 3: it set out to, but there was incredible strides taken
Speaker 3: and that was because of a mutual discourse of respect.
Speaker 3: There wasn't this idea of like you are inherently bad
Speaker 3: because of how you were born, and that's how achievement
Speaker 3: was developed. So yeah, I think that's that's got to
Speaker 3: be the beginning. Is what is it to be a man?
Speaker 3: What are those images?
Speaker 2: No one answer to that, Like one of the things
Speaker 2: I think all the time, you know, as a mother
Speaker 2: of a sod like my little boy doesn't tick a
Speaker 2: lot of boxes of what's traditionally what being a man is.
Speaker 2: You know, he doesn't love playing football, he's not a
Speaker 2: rough and tumbled dude, he doesn't take charge. Like I think,
Speaker 2: there's no one answer. Surely, if the progress that is
Speaker 2: being made here isn't isn't unpicking all of those things,
Speaker 2: you know, like the whole idea that there's just one
Speaker 2: lane for everybody. I feel like.
Speaker 3: That's lane matter how many times have we said on
Speaker 3: this show, you can't be what you can't say. You know,
Speaker 3: you think about a girl who goes to her teenage
Speaker 3: bedroom and all the images of famous inspiring women up
Speaker 3: on her walls, and all the different paths. I just
Speaker 3: hope that there are as many varied and inspiring paths
Speaker 3: for little boys.
Speaker 5: Do you know what's really challenging as a parent of
Speaker 5: a son and a daughter is all the messages that
Speaker 5: we're giving our daughter to pump up their tires are
Speaker 5: also being heard by our sons. And remember we had
Speaker 5: this conversation quite a few years ago home where your
Speaker 5: son said to you, when I grow up, I want
Speaker 5: to be a girl. And you were like, oh, billy,
Speaker 5: that's interesting. Why And he said to you because girls
Speaker 5: can do anything. And that's when you realized, oh shit.
Speaker 5: I've been working as of course, to correcting, you know,
Speaker 5: bringing up our daughters to be strong, powerful women and
Speaker 5: not take shit from men. But then our sons have
Speaker 5: been listening, and is the implication that they're shit?
Speaker 2: Yeah? But since then it didn't take long to correct
Speaker 2: that view. For Billy, because he does still live in
Speaker 2: a world where boys are very much treasured, right, and
Speaker 2: he has has his own issues with dealing with the
Speaker 2: alpha males in his school or wherever, And he's always
Speaker 2: saying to me how surprised he is about the way
Speaker 2: that a lot of boys talk about girls right in
Speaker 2: a very disparaging way. I get all of the things
Speaker 2: we're talking about, but I also think it's a big
Speaker 2: and complicated picture that the andrew Tates and everything of
Speaker 2: the world who are now being held up as like, well,
Speaker 2: there's either this, or there's you know, there are footy players,
Speaker 2: or there are men in finance or whatever it is,
Speaker 2: these views of masculinity, and we've got to remember that
Speaker 2: the extreme ends of that, just like everything in our culture,
Speaker 2: are being promoted and elevated to us all the time
Speaker 2: by the content we're consuming, the algorithms we swim, we
Speaker 2: swim in all that stuff. In little boys actual lives,
Speaker 2: they're still struggling with toxic masculinity in inverted commerce, and
Speaker 2: they still need to hear all the time the messaging
Speaker 2: about women respect. I don't think that job is done.
Speaker 2: I don't think we can dust off our hands. I
Speaker 2: think any young woman out in the world, like the
Speaker 2: dilemma that we spoke about about sexy dress dilemma on
Speaker 2: the subs episode the other week, any young woman out
Speaker 2: in the world will tell you that it's not like, yeah,
Speaker 2: those all those issues have gone away, And I just
Speaker 2: feel like we're kind of running a risk of telling
Speaker 2: women to stop complaining because it's making the men feel bad.
Speaker 4: One Unlimited out Loud Access.
Speaker 3: We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mum
Speaker 3: and MEA subscribers. Follow the link in the show notes
Speaker 3: to get us in your ears five days a week.
Speaker 3: And a huge thank you to all our current subscribers.
Speaker 3: Have you noticed more life coaches popping up.
Speaker 4: In your Instagram feede lately?
Speaker 3: So just me?
Speaker 4: You guys got them?
Speaker 1: Yep, yeah, and they all sound the same. I actually
Speaker 1: haven't noticed it lately.
Speaker 5: I noticed it a couple of years ago, and some
Speaker 5: people I knew who really shouldn't be were touting their
Speaker 5: services as life coaches.
Speaker 3: Yes, so when you say they all look the same,
Speaker 3: there are lots of emojis in the captions. They want
Speaker 3: to empower you to manifest your best life by leaving
Speaker 3: fear behind, and often they use words like neuroscience and
Speaker 3: psychology and then encourage you to comment webinar below, and
Speaker 3: then they'll send you something they all.
Speaker 1: Read that's called a lead magnet. That's to get your
Speaker 1: email address.
Speaker 4: Okay, because they do that, and they market lots of
Speaker 4: capital letters and then lots of stuff.
Speaker 5: They all kind of feel the same. And there's a
Speaker 5: reason for that, isn't there.
Speaker 4: Well.
Speaker 3: An article published in the Sydney Morning Herald over the weekend,
Speaker 3: and it was republished from the New York Times, references
Speaker 3: a growing cohort of people speaking out about the ugly
Speaker 3: underbelly of life coaching. And basically the reason why all
Speaker 3: of these things are the same is because they're all.
Speaker 4: Being taught by the same people.
Speaker 3: So it's an unregulated industry that means anyone can call
Speaker 3: themselves a life coach that grew out of the late
Speaker 3: twentieth century, pulled towards self improvement when talk therapy was popular.
Speaker 3: It's really hard to get stats about this because of
Speaker 3: how unregulated it is, but there are suggestions that between
Speaker 3: twenty nineteen and twenty twenty two, the number of life
Speaker 3: coaches increased by fifty four percent, So it's skyrocketing, and
Speaker 3: the question is is the uptick harmful? And if it is,
Speaker 3: then who are the victims?
Speaker 5: What's interesting is that this person that I know who
Speaker 5: left a job went and became a life coach. I
Speaker 5: got a bit obsessed with, like what is going on?
Speaker 5: And then there was this one person who kept commenting,
Speaker 5: so I went and looked up her name and she
Speaker 5: was a life coach for life coaches, So she taught
Speaker 5: people how to become life coaches. And then soon enough
Speaker 5: this other woman who I knew, she was then trying
Speaker 5: to attract people to teach them how to be life coaches,
Speaker 5: when she didn't seem to be coaching anyone herself.
Speaker 1: So it's very pyramids game, very MLM, very very marketing.
Speaker 2: Can I ask a really basic question, what's a life coach?
Speaker 2: As in, like how are they different from like a
Speaker 2: therapist or a mentor, or like as someone at work?
Speaker 3: What's a life Okay, So in Australia actually something like
Speaker 3: a counselor. Anyone can legally call themselves a counselor. But
Speaker 3: if you're going to see a counselor, then chances are
Speaker 3: they've studied for minimum three years A psychologist we're talking
Speaker 3: minimum six years. You need to have some sort of
Speaker 3: tertiary education. There are bodies where you can go and
Speaker 3: look up your psychologists or a therapist or whatever and
Speaker 3: see if they, you know, actually fit the criteria. A
Speaker 3: life coach can do a week long course, a life
Speaker 3: coach can do no study.
Speaker 2: But I would go to one because.
Speaker 3: You have a problem that you're trying to solve, You
Speaker 3: want help with your career, you want things to get better,
Speaker 3: like very broad.
Speaker 5: Therapy light and so one of the reasons that people
Speaker 5: do see life coaches often is because it can be
Speaker 5: very hard and very expensive to get in to see
Speaker 5: a therapist. Life coaches do tend to be cheaper because
Speaker 5: they're unregulated and unqualified, and that brings risks.
Speaker 1: Of course, because you don't know.
Speaker 5: You could be going with some very complex issue and
Speaker 5: a mental health issue or an issue around abuse or
Speaker 5: who knows, and they might have done an hour long
Speaker 5: online course.
Speaker 3: And the people who seek out life coaches of generally
Speaker 3: vulnerable people right like, they probably have a significant, absolutely
Speaker 3: problem that they're trying to sort out in their lives.
Speaker 3: And look, that's one thing. But an expert in this
Speaker 3: article was saying that This other element is that there's
Speaker 3: a problem in the industry, as you say, Mayor, of
Speaker 3: coaches who coach coaches to become coaches. Yes, and you
Speaker 3: see a lot of people who then are promised, in
Speaker 3: your first year, you'll make one hundred thousand dollars, and
Speaker 3: then they do this thing, They've forked out tens of
Speaker 3: thousands of dollars in order to get this qualification that
Speaker 3: isn't real, and then they have no clients because of
Speaker 3: course they don't. And then they're told, well, you need
Speaker 3: to do more courses, so they do more and more,
Speaker 3: and then it's the sunt cost fallacy, which is, well,
Speaker 3: I've invested seventy thousand dollars, I can't give up now,
Speaker 3: and before you know it, you're in debt and you're
Speaker 3: trying to sell to your same two hundred Instagram followers.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 4: And I've personally seen.
Speaker 3: Heaps of this, especially since COVID and my instinct, I've
Speaker 3: been trying to do this topic for ages because I
Speaker 3: find it intensely irritating. I like expertise, I know what
Speaker 3: it takes to be a psychologist, and I think.
Speaker 4: Honestly, I'm like, how dare you?
Speaker 3: What makes you think that you can help anyone with
Speaker 3: their problems.
Speaker 4: But reading this, it changed my perspective a bit.
Speaker 3: Because I thought, these are vulnerable people who often have
Speaker 3: a family.
Speaker 5: Do you mean the people who are becoming life creag Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 5: because it like all of these MLMs, it prays usually
Speaker 5: on women and usually on mothers.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 5: So because you can work from home, it's flexible, you
Speaker 5: can be your own boss.
Speaker 1: And that's what women are craving.
Speaker 5: They want to do something, they want to bring earn
Speaker 5: an income, but maybe they can't do it around and
Speaker 5: every woman I know who's fallen victim to these things
Speaker 5: and paid money to do these courses and then of
Speaker 5: course found and years ago, ten years ago, it was
Speaker 5: all about becoming a diet coach or a nutrition coach.
Speaker 4: Is the other one.
Speaker 3: I've got all those people on my feed who were
Speaker 3: doing things where I.
Speaker 4: Go, how is this legal? How are you dishing out?
Speaker 5: You have like an online course? And then they become
Speaker 5: health coaches. And again it's the same type of woman
Speaker 5: who it tends to be a woman who really needs
Speaker 5: money or who really can't work in a regular job
Speaker 5: or doesn't want to. It's also a get rich quick
Speaker 5: a lot of promises are made and it looks too
Speaker 5: good to be true.
Speaker 1: Because it is.
Speaker 2: I know lots of people though love their coaches, Like
Speaker 2: I know lots of successful people who have a coach. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I was on a call with I don't know, some
Speaker 2: writer person who was like, I just got off the
Speaker 2: call with my coach in LA and I've never felt
Speaker 2: more fighted up and this is going to be amazing,
Speaker 2: And I'm like, yeah, I want a bit of that.
Speaker 2: I entirely understand the appeal because the thing is as
Speaker 2: a therapist a as you've said me, or there's barriers,
Speaker 2: it's expensive, but also I might not want to just
Speaker 2: unpack all my inner everything. I might just want someone
Speaker 2: to tell me how to be more effective, how to
Speaker 2: be more efficient, how do I repay rise, how do whatever?
Speaker 2: It is? Like, I can entirely understand the appeal of
Speaker 2: a coach, so I don't really care about their certificates
Speaker 2: and their qualifications.
Speaker 3: If it works, yes, And that's a really good point
Speaker 3: because life coaches aren't all made equal, which is the
Speaker 3: same obviously with a therapist. And there are some who
Speaker 3: have who are actually incredibly qualified, and they're even like
Speaker 3: Ben Crow, who's not really a life coach, but he's.
Speaker 2: A similar worldness, innovational person. Like who doesn't want someone
Speaker 2: like that in their corner? Who's going to go Well,
Speaker 2: the way that you should have this conversation is like this,
Speaker 2: and the way that you should do that is like
Speaker 2: and maybe, if you think of it, if you'd structure
Speaker 2: your day a bit. I mean, we're all obsessed with
Speaker 2: that stuff, right, So I understand the need. So what
Speaker 2: we're talking about here is the fact that if you're
Speaker 2: looking for that, you have to be wary that you're
Speaker 2: not just getting poor old Betty who was sold this
Speaker 2: pyramid scheme idea that she was going to make herself
Speaker 2: rich when really she's just yeah.
Speaker 5: Because then suddenly Betty's trying to convince you that what
Speaker 5: you need to do is also become a coach. Yes,
Speaker 5: that's the answer. So that's different because when someone is
Speaker 5: actually coaching you. And I've seen coaches before. Although someone
Speaker 5: recommended a new therapist to me recently, I went and
Speaker 5: saw her, and before I went, I looked her up
Speaker 5: and I was like, Oh, she's actually not qualified as
Speaker 5: a therapist. She's more of a coach, and I actually
Speaker 5: found her great. Would I go back to her. Yes
Speaker 5: I would, but it's more about she didn't suggest that
Speaker 5: I then.
Speaker 1: Become a coach and.
Speaker 5: Do pay her money apart from the sessions that I
Speaker 5: was seeing her with. So as you say, you can
Speaker 5: be vulnerable when someone sees a coach. If they work
Speaker 5: and if they've got expertise, that's great. But I guess
Speaker 5: what we're also wanting to flag is this idea of
Speaker 5: women who think or maybe I'll become a coach.
Speaker 1: So it's the two it's the two risks.
Speaker 3: We also feel unqualified to live and by that, yes
Speaker 3: we do. Like That's the thing, right, is that the
Speaker 3: majority of these clients are also women.
Speaker 4: I must say.
Speaker 3: One of the richest people I know is a life
Speaker 3: coach and it's a family friend.
Speaker 4: Who makes unbelievable money.
Speaker 3: She has siblings who are in who's a finance bro
Speaker 3: and a blar and really really high up, and they
Speaker 3: laughed at her when she said she was going to
Speaker 3: be a life coach, and now she is living in some.
Speaker 2: Because now everybody's gurgling.
Speaker 1: Life coach can also be a business coach.
Speaker 2: You can be there are coaches, But I think you've
Speaker 2: hit the nail on the head there jesse A, but
Speaker 2: we don't feel qualified to live because I think that
Speaker 2: surely this enthusiasm for coaches is also part of our isolation.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: We spend a lot of time looking at our phones,
Speaker 2: and everybody's more successful than we are. That's the impression
Speaker 2: you're getting from your algorithm. And so you're like, I
Speaker 2: don't understand. And it's part of the whole push for
Speaker 2: self improvement and productivity.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 2: We all think if I just changed this and this
Speaker 2: and this, I could be that and that and that.
Speaker 2: And your family friend apparently hears that, but for most
Speaker 2: of us, we're probably doing okay.
Speaker 4: Yes, there's no like golden ticket.
Speaker 3: And I've seen as well this thing of some people
Speaker 3: I know who have really big followings and maybe they've
Speaker 3: had other careers in entertainment or whatever, and they've got
Speaker 3: one hundred thousand followers and they don't know what to
Speaker 3: do with it.
Speaker 4: They've all become life coaches.
Speaker 3: Because it's like, that's how I can monetize it. There
Speaker 3: must be money in course.
Speaker 1: But well that's the point.
Speaker 5: That's why the whole idea of an MLM is that
Speaker 5: there are no customers.
Speaker 1: There's just other people that you bring in to sell.
Speaker 5: Yeah, So it's actually that's why the line between a
Speaker 5: period scheme and EMMA is very fine, and regulators often
Speaker 5: have a little bit of trouble because it can be
Speaker 5: hard to prove that there aren't any potential customers for
Speaker 5: the service that you're asking, you know, whether it's buy
Speaker 5: all of these leggings, and then no one wants to
Speaker 5: buy the leggings from you, so you've just got to
Speaker 5: find other people who are in your what's called a downline,
Speaker 5: who then also sell the leggings and give you a
Speaker 5: little bit of a cut.
Speaker 1: But they can't.
Speaker 5: Find anyone either, so they've then got to find more people.
Speaker 5: And so that's how that's how the MLM works, and that's.
Speaker 1: What this is.
Speaker 5: So thinking that there's this huge hunger and need and
Speaker 5: market for a regular person who's just done a course
Speaker 5: and he's going to become a life coach, it's just
Speaker 5: not true. It's just not like there are some people
Speaker 5: who are good and who who have clients and who
Speaker 5: do it well. But it's really unlikely that you're going
Speaker 5: to be one of those people just from doing a
Speaker 5: course on the internet.
Speaker 3: Now in the show notes are the two registered like
Speaker 3: the way that you can tell if the person that
Speaker 3: you're saying, whether it's a therapist or a counselor or
Speaker 3: a psychologist, they hit the criteria. And you know that's
Speaker 3: not to say there aren't great life coaches, but if
Speaker 3: you want to triple check links in the show notes.
Speaker 5: Jesse, what's the way in which you reckon motherhood has
Speaker 5: changed you most?
Speaker 3: Ooh, I something has happened to my I feel like,
Speaker 3: to my biology, to my brain, to something that has
Speaker 3: given me patience that I didn't have. I was an
Speaker 3: incredibly impatient person before and quite prone to panic, and
Speaker 3: I have been surprised at how that has changed. Like
Speaker 3: if you'd told me that I could spend four or
Speaker 3: five hours in a room trying to put a baby
Speaker 3: to sleep, I would have gone, I'm not capable of that.
Speaker 4: So something has changed.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I've lost that again. I think you've
Speaker 1: got it and then you lose it as your kids
Speaker 1: get older.
Speaker 5: We spoke while you're away with Gemma, who is a
Speaker 5: relatively new mother as well, about mattrescence and how becoming
Speaker 5: a mother changes your identity.
Speaker 1: So it's not just about how it.
Speaker 5: Changes your lifestyle, which of course it does, but how
Speaker 5: it can really change your identity.
Speaker 3: I was heavily pregnant and terrified and I went and
Speaker 3: had brunch with Gemma before I had learner.
Speaker 4: And oh my god, speaking of life coaches.
Speaker 3: Through that period, she's very, very wise, and like she
Speaker 3: just she told me the good bits and was like,
Speaker 3: you're prepared for the sleep. All of that and her
Speaker 3: birth she didn't have a great she didn't have a
Speaker 3: great one, but I have found her insights about motherhood
Speaker 3: very very h.
Speaker 5: We spoke about how it will often affect a woman's
Speaker 5: identity but not a man's identity in that same way,
Speaker 5: and how nothing.
Speaker 1: Really prepares you for that, and out loud as if.
Speaker 5: That sounds like the most boring thing you could ever
Speaker 5: even imagine listening to because you don't have kids, you
Speaker 5: don't want kids, or you just are not interested. We
Speaker 5: have also got a No Filter episode this week about
Speaker 5: an interview with a woman who has got kids and
Speaker 5: has decided not to have kids, and she talks about
Speaker 5: what her life is like at forty five, having made
Speaker 5: that decision about eight or nine.
Speaker 4: I love that.
Speaker 5: So we've got you covered no matter what you want
Speaker 5: to listen to. Next will link to those both of
Speaker 5: those episodes.
Speaker 2: In the show notes, a big thank you friends for
Speaker 2: listening to today's show, and a big thank you to
Speaker 2: you Jesse Stevens for coming back from your holiday. We
Speaker 2: missed you. I'm glad you decided to return. I thought
Speaker 2: we're looking at that flight you might have gone and
Speaker 2: I'm just going to stay, which.
Speaker 4: Is exactly I'm never coming back. I consider that it's
Speaker 4: been amazing.
Speaker 2: A big thank you to our team, of course for
Speaker 2: putting today's show together.
Speaker 1: We'll be back in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 4: Bye.
Speaker 5: Shout out to any Mum and mia subscribers listening. If
Speaker 5: you love the show and want to support us as well,
Speaker 5: subscribing to Mom and Miya is the very best way
Speaker 5: to do so.
Speaker 1: There is a link in the episode description.