WEBVTT - What We Missed In Taylor's Royal Box 0:00:10.327 --> 0:00:13.047 You're listening to a MoMA Mea podcast. 0:00:13.727 --> 0:00:16.767 Mama Mer acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:16.807 --> 0:00:23.327 that this podcast is recorded on Hello, Hello, and welcome 0:00:23.367 --> 0:00:25.607 to Mama Mina out Loud. It's what women are actually 0:00:25.647 --> 0:00:28.167 talking about on Monday, the twenty fourth of June. 0:00:28.327 --> 0:00:30.767 I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm Mea Friedman. 0:00:30.687 --> 0:00:35.007 And I'm Jesse Stevens. I'm back from my European holidays. 0:00:35.047 --> 0:00:36.407 I'm making an applause. 0:00:37.007 --> 0:00:39.207 Crowdgo wild, thank you. 0:00:39.287 --> 0:00:39.567 Look. 0:00:40.367 --> 0:00:43.367 I've had a few out louders message saying how the 0:00:43.367 --> 0:00:43.727 flight go. 0:00:44.247 --> 0:00:47.047 I've been quiet. There's a reason why I've been quiet, because. 0:00:46.927 --> 0:00:49.407 We were thoughts and prayers, thoughts like, well, your thoughts 0:00:49.447 --> 0:00:49.967 and prayers. 0:00:51.287 --> 0:00:52.887 Didn't help my thoughts and my prayers. 0:00:52.927 --> 0:00:54.487 It's going to come up on the best and worst 0:00:54.487 --> 0:00:57.207 segment on Friday's episode. Everyone can take a little guess 0:00:57.447 --> 0:00:59.167 as to which category will fall into. 0:00:59.647 --> 0:01:01.287 I was really bummed that you didn't have Wi Fi 0:01:01.567 --> 0:01:04.127 on the flight because I want to constant update. 0:01:04.247 --> 0:01:06.687 I had a little bit of Wi Fi. Luca was 0:01:06.687 --> 0:01:09.247 getting updates. I'll tell you that he was getting up 0:01:09.847 --> 0:01:13.047 all day, all fourteen hours of that second leg. On 0:01:13.367 --> 0:01:16.727 tomorrow's subscriber episode, I'm going to do a big kind. 0:01:16.527 --> 0:01:19.567 Of catch up about the we want to hear about. 0:01:19.607 --> 0:01:21.687 True A real highlight was when I was so jet 0:01:21.767 --> 0:01:24.687 lagged when we landed that I found myself at two 0:01:24.727 --> 0:01:26.087 am holding Luner upside down. 0:01:26.527 --> 0:01:30.207 So there'll be nice tidbits. There was a hospital visit. 0:01:30.247 --> 0:01:32.487 There's so much I need to tell you guys about. 0:01:32.607 --> 0:01:36.127 Wait, yeah, yeah, wouldn't be Jesse Stevens holiday at a 0:01:36.127 --> 0:01:36.767 hospital visit. 0:01:36.927 --> 0:01:39.447 I was actually relieved when we ended up in the 0:01:39.447 --> 0:01:42.647 French hospital. Oh thank god. All right, we have done 0:01:42.647 --> 0:01:44.327 the hospital. Now we can get on with our holiday. 0:01:47.327 --> 0:01:51.567 On the show today, two out loud obsessions collided in 0:01:51.647 --> 0:01:55.287 a rainbow explosion of sparkly corsets and daggy dad dancing 0:01:55.327 --> 0:01:58.607 on the weekend. Yes, we're talking about that time Taylor 0:01:58.647 --> 0:02:01.727 Swift granted an audience to the future King of England, 0:02:01.967 --> 0:02:05.287 also one of Australia's most famous feminists, our first female 0:02:05.287 --> 0:02:08.087 Prime Minister, thinks we have failed to bring young men 0:02:08.127 --> 0:02:10.487 along with us on our mind towards equality. 0:02:10.647 --> 0:02:11.527 Is she right? 0:02:11.847 --> 0:02:14.647 And do you need a live coach, sweetie or do 0:02:14.687 --> 0:02:18.047 you want to be one? The great live coach pyramid scheme, 0:02:18.367 --> 0:02:21.047 but first Jesse Stevens. 0:02:20.407 --> 0:02:21.287 In case he missed it. 0:02:21.367 --> 0:02:24.087 A Kiwi woman is suing her ex for not giving 0:02:24.087 --> 0:02:26.967 her a ride to the airport and she is my idol. 0:02:27.167 --> 0:02:30.327 A New Zealand woman has taken her boyfriend to small 0:02:30.367 --> 0:02:32.967 Claims court over a broken promise to drive her to 0:02:33.007 --> 0:02:36.407 the airport and watch her dogs during her trip, arguing 0:02:36.807 --> 0:02:41.167 that the agreement represented an oral contract. She was going 0:02:41.167 --> 0:02:43.767 to a concert with friends and he agreed to take 0:02:43.767 --> 0:02:46.447 her to the airport between ten and ten fifteen am, 0:02:46.567 --> 0:02:49.247 but then he did not and she missed her flight. 0:02:49.687 --> 0:02:52.847 Ooh, was he just late or he like ghosted her? 0:02:52.927 --> 0:02:53.967 I think he ghosted her. 0:02:54.287 --> 0:02:56.567 They met together six years. I thought that was interesting. 0:02:56.767 --> 0:02:58.327 This wasn't someone she just met on the weekend. 0:02:58.407 --> 0:03:00.007 He really didn't want to take her to the airport. 0:03:00.647 --> 0:03:04.327 The Disputes Tribunal where this woman took her case looks 0:03:04.367 --> 0:03:07.367 at smaller claims and she basically wanted financial damages for 0:03:07.367 --> 0:03:10.167 her missed flight, but also shuttle. 0:03:09.927 --> 0:03:11.407 She had to catch to the airport. 0:03:11.407 --> 0:03:12.287 Actually no longer had a. 0:03:12.327 --> 0:03:14.087 Lift and she had to put a dogs in boarding. 0:03:14.087 --> 0:03:15.407 I think was. 0:03:15.527 --> 0:03:18.167 Looking it is expensive, especially last minute. What was she 0:03:18.207 --> 0:03:20.007 to do she had to go to her concert. 0:03:20.127 --> 0:03:25.327 I hope she didn't miss it. Sy're going to drive you. 0:03:25.367 --> 0:03:27.367 No one wants to get the bus, not to the airport. 0:03:27.727 --> 0:03:31.327 The tribunal basically said that sometimes friends or romantic partners 0:03:31.447 --> 0:03:34.127 break promises, but that's none of their business, and she 0:03:34.167 --> 0:03:37.207 will not be reimbursed by anyone for the inconvenience caused. 0:03:38.127 --> 0:03:40.887 I feel inspired to sue a lot of people, but 0:03:41.007 --> 0:03:43.727 most of all, I just love that not dropping someone 0:03:44.007 --> 0:03:46.087 off at the airport is in the realm of criminal 0:03:46.167 --> 0:03:47.247 charges where it belongs. 0:03:47.647 --> 0:03:48.807 Do you drop people at the airport? 0:03:48.887 --> 0:03:49.247 I do? 0:03:49.447 --> 0:03:51.407 You know I do, because I've dropped you at the airport, 0:03:51.687 --> 0:03:54.567 But no one else in my family does. No, they don't. 0:03:54.647 --> 0:03:57.887 I love an airport drop off, but not as much 0:03:57.927 --> 0:04:00.887 as I love an airport pick up. In fact, when 0:04:00.927 --> 0:04:02.687 you were you home on Sunday, I. 0:04:03.407 --> 0:04:06.167 Was going, look, I love yer, but if she is 0:04:06.167 --> 0:04:07.247 at that gate, I'm just. 0:04:07.287 --> 0:04:09.687 It's going to know that. 0:04:09.767 --> 0:04:11.527 I knew that, and I'm self censored. 0:04:11.847 --> 0:04:14.607 So I was saying that I was I said to Luca, 0:04:15.127 --> 0:04:17.847 I was just thinking about and I was going to say, 0:04:17.847 --> 0:04:20.847 but I decided no, that you need some time as 0:04:20.887 --> 0:04:23.647 a family and I just said I was thinking about 0:04:23.687 --> 0:04:24.927 when Jesse and he just goes. 0:04:24.847 --> 0:04:29.887 Nope, you know this is like this story is one 0:04:29.927 --> 0:04:32.167 of the texts in the canon of my life is 0:04:32.207 --> 0:04:34.287 when Harry met Sally. The greatest movie ever made and 0:04:34.847 --> 0:04:38.247 the wisdom in there that Harry tells Sally about. He 0:04:38.567 --> 0:04:40.287 bumps into her an airport and he goes, oh, that 0:04:40.327 --> 0:04:43.247 relationship must be new, because she's like kissing her guy 0:04:43.287 --> 0:04:44.047 at the gate and. 0:04:44.007 --> 0:04:45.207 She's about to get on a plane. 0:04:45.607 --> 0:04:46.967 And she goes, how did you know that? We've been 0:04:47.007 --> 0:04:48.407 since the other three months? How did you know that? 0:04:48.447 --> 0:04:50.647 And he goes, because you only ever take people to 0:04:50.687 --> 0:04:53.527 the airport at the beginning of a relationship. And he said, 0:04:53.567 --> 0:04:55.807 that's why I never take people to the airport at 0:04:55.807 --> 0:04:57.847 the beginning of a relationship, so they can never turn 0:04:57.887 --> 0:05:00.007 around to me and say, you used to take me 0:05:00.087 --> 0:05:01.687 to the airport, do you? 0:05:01.967 --> 0:05:04.127 Because your partner travels are bitch? 0:05:04.287 --> 0:05:08.007 No, never ever pick like I like a pickup, but 0:05:08.327 --> 0:05:09.727 I don't drop now. 0:05:09.807 --> 0:05:12.567 Oh, there's something so sad about making your own way 0:05:12.727 --> 0:05:14.287 to and from an airport. 0:05:13.927 --> 0:05:14.367 That I've got. 0:05:14.367 --> 0:05:15.647 But I know people who feel that way. 0:05:15.687 --> 0:05:16.087 I don't. 0:05:16.087 --> 0:05:18.687 I don't. I do like to be met at long distance. 0:05:18.727 --> 0:05:21.167 Oh my god. When I arrived at Manchester and if 0:05:21.167 --> 0:05:23.527 my family weren't there, I would be a mess right 0:05:23.967 --> 0:05:26.087 long distance for sure, But like if you're flying to 0:05:26.247 --> 0:05:28.567 Melbourne or whatever, like I wouldn't expect anyone to pick 0:05:28.567 --> 0:05:29.527 me up or drop me off. 0:05:29.887 --> 0:05:32.567 Oh no, but I'm a slut for an airport reunion. 0:05:32.967 --> 0:05:35.767 I love it. Yeah, for like a long haul, not 0:05:35.887 --> 0:05:36.487 short haul. 0:05:36.647 --> 0:05:39.607 She was promised, she was promised, she was promised that 0:05:39.647 --> 0:05:41.847 he would drive her. And I think that this could 0:05:41.847 --> 0:05:44.047 possibly be a new podcast idea for us, which is 0:05:44.207 --> 0:05:47.327 petty crimes. Yes. Can you imagine if out Louders just 0:05:47.327 --> 0:05:49.087 were like, I have a petty crime and we were 0:05:49.127 --> 0:05:52.607 the tribunal like Judge Dude liked except. 0:05:52.247 --> 0:05:54.527 Its us and people just say whether they're guilty or not. 0:05:54.687 --> 0:05:56.087 I declare him very guilty. 0:05:56.207 --> 0:05:57.807 I agree fully guilty. 0:05:58.167 --> 0:06:00.687 Out Louders, do you think we want to hear from 0:06:00.727 --> 0:06:02.007 you about your petty crime? 0:06:02.127 --> 0:06:04.327 We could turn it into a song like I'm looking at. 0:06:06.527 --> 0:06:09.647 The intersection of Holly in my Hyperfixations. Happened over the 0:06:09.687 --> 0:06:12.927 weekend with members of the royal family attending the Taylor 0:06:12.967 --> 0:06:16.167 Swift concert in London and having a sing and a 0:06:16.247 --> 0:06:20.127 dance and a backstage selfie with Taylor herself afterwards the 0:06:20.207 --> 0:06:23.607 ultimate collab, which was excellent for both brands. May it 0:06:23.687 --> 0:06:26.807 be said it was very mutually beneficial. I thought it 0:06:26.847 --> 0:06:29.287 was very well received by the Internet, who really frothed 0:06:29.287 --> 0:06:33.167 over Prince William dancing along with two of his small 0:06:33.287 --> 0:06:36.447 royal children, Prince George and Princess Charlotte in a posh 0:06:36.487 --> 0:06:40.807 box overlooking the masses at Wimbley Stadium. Fun fact, this 0:06:40.847 --> 0:06:44.327 is not the first time the pair have met backstage. 0:06:44.727 --> 0:06:48.927 They did a duet Prince William and Taylor Swift in 0:06:49.087 --> 0:06:55.247 a Kensington Palace charity event with bon John Bovy Try 0:06:55.287 --> 0:06:59.447 again Bon Jovi. They sang Living on a Prayer in 0:06:59.527 --> 0:07:01.647 twenty thirteen. Here's a little piece of that. 0:07:21.407 --> 0:07:22.567 You go here, Taylor. 0:07:22.727 --> 0:07:26.567 Did we need to hear that? Carry out? It was 0:07:26.687 --> 0:07:28.607 like when mea wants to sing to us. 0:07:29.647 --> 0:07:34.447 I thought that was good. Holly, were you wearing your pants? 0:07:34.447 --> 0:07:35.087 Were excitement? 0:07:35.247 --> 0:07:39.447 So excited? It was really funny because my Instagram feed 0:07:39.887 --> 0:07:42.647 at the weekend was just famous people in London seeing 0:07:42.647 --> 0:07:45.607 Taylor Swift. And I mean no one in Australia needs 0:07:45.687 --> 0:07:48.247 to be told this because we've been through it ourselves, 0:07:48.327 --> 0:07:52.207 but it's that moment where everybody's there and there's a 0:07:52.247 --> 0:07:55.767 sort of real zeitgeistee moment of who's hot. Because all 0:07:55.767 --> 0:07:58.047 the celebrities I saw wanted their picture taken with Nicola 0:07:58.127 --> 0:08:01.167 Cocklan from Bridgeton, so because she was there. So there's 0:08:01.167 --> 0:08:03.687 hern Karra Delavin and her and j VN and her 0:08:03.767 --> 0:08:05.847 and all these people, and I was just like, she's 0:08:05.847 --> 0:08:07.767 obviously the person you want to sit next to your 0:08:07.807 --> 0:08:11.807 box because no is invited into the Royal Box where 0:08:11.847 --> 0:08:15.167 William was dad dancing, and I thought. 0:08:15.047 --> 0:08:17.847 I thought he was quite good at his dancing was terrible. 0:08:18.087 --> 0:08:19.927 One of my friends just message and said it makes 0:08:19.967 --> 0:08:21.967 me crawl up inside my bumhole a little bit, and 0:08:22.007 --> 0:08:24.047 I know what she meant. I thought he was. 0:08:24.047 --> 0:08:27.767 Quite I liked imagining that he did that because it 0:08:27.807 --> 0:08:29.807 was to shake it off. And I was thinking when 0:08:29.847 --> 0:08:32.607 Spare came out and when he had a rough trot, 0:08:33.207 --> 0:08:36.727 I imagine him in his palation doing his little jig. 0:08:36.807 --> 0:08:39.287 And you'll notice in that video Charlotte and George and 0:08:39.327 --> 0:08:41.127 know where to be saying it's just William. 0:08:41.647 --> 0:08:43.327 He's there on his own. 0:08:44.687 --> 0:08:46.607 Sometimes, like when you're at the concert I know neither 0:08:46.647 --> 0:08:49.047 review went, but it just it comes out of you. 0:08:49.447 --> 0:08:52.047 You can't only help it, you can't help it. I 0:08:52.087 --> 0:08:55.687 think this is brilliant. We talked last week about Kate's 0:08:55.727 --> 0:08:59.007 sort of semi return to public life. She came out 0:08:59.007 --> 0:09:00.807 and did the trooping of the color to let everybody 0:09:00.847 --> 0:09:03.487 know that she's you know, she's halfway through her cancer treatment, 0:09:04.127 --> 0:09:06.967 and we were saying how we thought that was brilliantly handled. 0:09:07.247 --> 0:09:11.327 I think this is poignant pr brilliance because there's something 0:09:11.367 --> 0:09:14.767 about the dad taking his kids to see he's swifty. 0:09:14.927 --> 0:09:17.367 I'm sure that she Kate would have been there if 0:09:17.407 --> 0:09:19.687 she was able to be there, so it was beautiful 0:09:19.687 --> 0:09:22.047 that he took them. And then I think that the 0:09:22.127 --> 0:09:25.687 daggy dad dancing with such abandon in such a public 0:09:25.727 --> 0:09:27.847 spot is very endearing. 0:09:28.247 --> 0:09:29.447 It was so human. 0:09:29.607 --> 0:09:32.367 And to see him the smile on his face in 0:09:32.407 --> 0:09:35.127 that selfie with Taylor Swift, I've never seen him smile. 0:09:35.327 --> 0:09:38.327 And she posted it, and she doesn't usually post all 0:09:38.447 --> 0:09:40.087 her celebrity selfies. 0:09:39.687 --> 0:09:39.967 Does she? 0:09:40.887 --> 0:09:43.807 No, she doesn't usually take a lot of selfies. Probably, 0:09:43.887 --> 0:09:46.847 but also someone took a photo of her taking the 0:09:46.887 --> 0:09:50.127 selfie that was probably what you saw, which is interesting, 0:09:50.127 --> 0:09:52.727 which I think it was probably her publicist Tree Paint, 0:09:53.047 --> 0:09:54.327 or maybe Travis. 0:09:54.487 --> 0:09:56.447 Because he was in one of the pictures too. Right, 0:09:56.887 --> 0:09:59.567 So this worked so well on me that we always 0:09:59.607 --> 0:10:01.527 talk on the show about how I'm obsessed with the royals, 0:10:01.567 --> 0:10:03.847 but I'm not a royalist, right, I'm a Republican. I 0:10:03.927 --> 0:10:06.847 generally think off with the heads, et cetera. But when 0:10:06.847 --> 0:10:09.927 I was watching this on Saturday, the magic it was 0:10:09.927 --> 0:10:11.647 working on me. I was going, Oh, I think he'll 0:10:11.647 --> 0:10:15.167 be a good king. Oh, I don't know, Maybe we 0:10:15.207 --> 0:10:17.847 don't need to rush that republican business because look, he's 0:10:17.887 --> 0:10:18.527 so human. 0:10:19.007 --> 0:10:22.247 It's like on my mad it'd be great on my money. 0:10:22.287 --> 0:10:25.847 Look, I definitely worked so no notes on the Wills 0:10:25.887 --> 0:10:28.287 and Kate pr team that since the stuff up of 0:10:28.447 --> 0:10:31.207 March and the photo shop incident, Oh I forgot that 0:10:31.487 --> 0:10:34.087 really got their shit together. Because also it was Wills's 0:10:34.167 --> 0:10:37.567 birthday when he went to Taylor Swift and Kate posted 0:10:37.607 --> 0:10:40.327 some beautiful pictures of him and the kids jumping off 0:10:40.367 --> 0:10:43.647 sand dunes and stuff and just looking which is very different, Yeah, 0:10:43.887 --> 0:10:44.567 very different. 0:10:44.807 --> 0:10:48.447 I loved seeing Charlotte and George with their big smiles too, 0:10:48.487 --> 0:10:51.247 because I thought they've had a really rough time as well, 0:10:51.287 --> 0:10:54.087 and the idea that their mum has been seeking. I 0:10:54.127 --> 0:10:56.767 know that we can look at this as a story 0:10:56.927 --> 0:11:00.327 and unpack it in terms of the media scrutiny, but 0:11:00.367 --> 0:11:03.647 there's a family who's in pain, and so to see 0:11:03.647 --> 0:11:07.247 that as a joyful moment and Charlotte has her sparkles 0:11:07.247 --> 0:11:09.607 on and you just know that she was like it. 0:11:10.327 --> 0:11:13.447 My first reaction to that, because we were texting about it, 0:11:13.567 --> 0:11:14.487 was Megan. 0:11:15.487 --> 0:11:18.807 Megan's gonna be pissed because Meghan. 0:11:18.847 --> 0:11:22.047 We know, asked Taylor to be on a podcast in 0:11:22.087 --> 0:11:23.167 Taylor's archetypes. 0:11:23.447 --> 0:11:25.607 Yes, Taylor couldn't. And then I. 0:11:25.527 --> 0:11:26.927 Remember Taylor wouldn't. 0:11:27.487 --> 0:11:30.247 Taylor doesn't do a lot of interviews. That does not 0:11:30.287 --> 0:11:31.087 even for Megan. 0:11:31.207 --> 0:11:31.367 No. 0:11:31.647 --> 0:11:34.407 So I saw that and I'm like, if I was 0:11:35.007 --> 0:11:39.287 the Princess of La and I had moved to La, 0:11:39.687 --> 0:11:43.007 I would think that Taylor was on my team and 0:11:43.087 --> 0:11:46.087 Taylor's on their team. And then I remembered that Megan 0:11:46.167 --> 0:11:49.447 Mirkael went to the Taylor Swift concept in La. I 0:11:49.487 --> 0:11:52.767 have no guess who wasn't in a VIP box. Guess 0:11:52.767 --> 0:11:54.127 who was with the common man? 0:11:54.527 --> 0:11:57.367 No, but that just to be clear, he wasn't in 0:11:57.527 --> 0:11:58.367 Taylor's box. 0:11:58.767 --> 0:12:01.767 Taylor's box is different. Okay, he was just enough. 0:12:01.807 --> 0:12:05.607 Posh Wembley box. So anyone go in, like if you've 0:12:05.607 --> 0:12:07.767 got enough money or you're invited. 0:12:07.447 --> 0:12:09.567 By well, let's be on this. He probably has a 0:12:09.607 --> 0:12:12.247 box at Wembley, like it's where all the football games are. 0:12:12.607 --> 0:12:15.727 But yeah, I'll say be a royal boxes. That Meghan 0:12:15.727 --> 0:12:16.207 didn't get. 0:12:16.127 --> 0:12:18.247 Herself Tail Swift, she did not. 0:12:19.527 --> 0:12:22.807 I think that what happened in the celebrity division of 0:12:22.847 --> 0:12:26.927 celebrities during the great Estrangement of Harry and Wills is 0:12:26.967 --> 0:12:29.727 that Megan maybe got Beyonce and Oprah she did, and 0:12:29.807 --> 0:12:33.327 that Will's got Taylor Swift and right now he's the winner. 0:12:33.367 --> 0:12:34.647 Who knows in the years time. 0:12:34.647 --> 0:12:38.247 No, Taylor did not. Meghan did not get Beyonce. 0:12:38.847 --> 0:12:39.727 She was at the Beyonce. 0:12:40.047 --> 0:12:45.887 She's a very good scene whose movie premiere? Did Beyonce 0:12:46.047 --> 0:12:49.327 come to Taylor and walk the red carpet Taylor and 0:12:49.367 --> 0:12:50.967 then Taylor to Beyonce? 0:12:51.207 --> 0:12:55.687 No, No, I mean Meghan got got Beyonce, and William 0:12:55.727 --> 0:12:58.807 and Kate got Taylor. Oh, I don't mean Taylor and 0:12:58.847 --> 0:13:03.927 Beyonce are beefing. They're amazing, But like in the celebrity division, 0:13:04.847 --> 0:13:06.127 Beyonce's team Meghan. 0:13:06.367 --> 0:13:09.607 Anyone who's kind of thinking what's going to be for 0:13:09.727 --> 0:13:13.767 my career would probably go with the the incumbents, don't. 0:13:13.607 --> 0:13:16.407 You think, because the Royals are on the nose, like 0:13:16.887 --> 0:13:18.727 this is what I mean. Like when I was watching 0:13:18.727 --> 0:13:20.407 William dancing and I was like, this is good for 0:13:20.447 --> 0:13:24.887 their brand, because really the Royals are a really naff brand. Yeah, 0:13:24.727 --> 0:13:27.407 and colonies privilege. 0:13:27.367 --> 0:13:31.167 In speaking of the dancing, because I was looking at 0:13:31.407 --> 0:13:33.327 William and then I was looking at the box right 0:13:33.407 --> 0:13:35.247 with all the celebrities. And I've watched that video one 0:13:35.287 --> 0:13:36.847 hundred times because every time you look at it, you 0:13:36.927 --> 0:13:39.527 spott a new one. You go, that's Amelia Clark, that 0:13:39.647 --> 0:13:42.847 is a Hemsworth, that is Greta Gowick. And I'm watching 0:13:42.847 --> 0:13:46.567 it and I realized that there is such a distinct 0:13:46.647 --> 0:13:49.927 difference between how British people dance and Americans dance. And 0:13:50.007 --> 0:13:52.287 Travis Kelcey has a very like every time I've seen 0:13:52.367 --> 0:13:54.487 him dance, he's got his arms up, he's doing a point. 0:13:54.567 --> 0:13:58.607 He's very frat party, very American. Yeah, very I'm in. 0:13:58.567 --> 0:14:01.327 A club usually like a beer in the other hand y, yes, 0:14:01.687 --> 0:14:04.287 And he just loves it. And it's just this confidence 0:14:04.367 --> 0:14:07.047 is olfa male thing? And then and Ashton Kutsch is 0:14:07.087 --> 0:14:09.247 doing the same dance right because he's with like one 0:14:09.447 --> 0:14:12.847 with one arm. He's there with Miller and Tom Cruise 0:14:12.847 --> 0:14:14.967 looks he was there on his own trading bracelets. 0:14:15.007 --> 0:14:17.087 But anyway, I love that. I love that Tom Crat. 0:14:17.327 --> 0:14:19.527 None of his children are talking to him, I know, no, 0:14:20.087 --> 0:14:21.487 he's cut them off. 0:14:21.807 --> 0:14:24.207 Sorry, Suri. I think he's fine with the others. But Suri, 0:14:24.887 --> 0:14:28.087 she was at prom. Where was he trading bracelets with 0:14:28.167 --> 0:14:30.047 young teenage girls who aren't his daughter? 0:14:30.647 --> 0:14:31.047 Why? 0:14:31.087 --> 0:14:31.327 Tom? 0:14:31.407 --> 0:14:31.647 Why? 0:14:31.967 --> 0:14:32.287 Look what? 0:14:32.367 --> 0:14:33.967 I Noticedn't ask him about that. 0:14:34.167 --> 0:14:37.407 I don't know, I know, but he was quite likable 0:14:37.447 --> 0:14:38.567 in this ten second video. 0:14:38.807 --> 0:14:40.527 But greta girl, well. 0:14:40.327 --> 0:14:43.647 The other the Brits, that Amelie Clark, they're doing this 0:14:43.847 --> 0:14:46.127 jig where they have their arms down because they're there 0:14:46.167 --> 0:14:47.727 and they do kind of a shimmy. 0:14:47.847 --> 0:14:48.807 It's a bit of a shimmy. 0:14:48.887 --> 0:14:51.847 It's very Hugh gran in love actually walking down the stairs. 0:14:52.007 --> 0:14:54.967 It's understated, quite committing to a fool. 0:14:55.047 --> 0:14:56.927 No no, no, because you're embarrassed by yourself. 0:14:57.287 --> 0:15:00.767 I thought William was really throwing it out. 0:15:00.847 --> 0:15:01.967 He was making some shapes. 0:15:13.167 --> 0:15:15.567 If you want to hear more about Taylor Swift's concept, 0:15:15.687 --> 0:15:19.287 then Mummy's entertainment podcast The Spill has unpacked the wave 0:15:19.367 --> 0:15:22.327 of celebrities that attended Taylor swift London show. Because now 0:15:22.367 --> 0:15:24.527 there's not only been one, there's been three and more 0:15:24.527 --> 0:15:27.407 celebrities are coming every night and I adjust the rotation. 0:15:28.007 --> 0:15:30.967 I care enormously so about so we will pop a 0:15:31.007 --> 0:15:32.687 link to their episode in our show notes. 0:15:34.807 --> 0:15:38.767 This month, Mumma Mia turned seventeen. We know birthdays aren't 0:15:38.767 --> 0:15:42.407 all that exciting when they're not well. Your birthday, there 0:15:42.407 --> 0:15:44.887 aren't enough presents, So we want to take this as 0:15:44.927 --> 0:15:47.207 a chance to give you a treat and say thank 0:15:47.247 --> 0:15:48.887 you for being on the ride with us. 0:15:49.047 --> 0:15:51.167 Right now, you can get twenty dollars off a yearly 0:15:51.247 --> 0:15:52.687 Mumma me a subscription. 0:15:52.527 --> 0:15:54.767 With the code out Loud Birthday. 0:15:55.007 --> 0:15:57.167 The offer is valid till the end of June and 0:15:57.207 --> 0:15:59.567 you will find all the details of how to do 0:15:59.607 --> 0:16:05.927 that in the show notes. Enjoy, my friends. Look, if 0:16:05.927 --> 0:16:08.047 you felt your brain shriveling up a little bit during 0:16:08.047 --> 0:16:10.327 that segment, it's okay. We've got you. You've got you 0:16:10.447 --> 0:16:14.727 with bringing it back with some smart chat about one 0:16:14.767 --> 0:16:19.407 of the smartest women Australia has ever produced. So I 0:16:19.487 --> 0:16:21.927 want to talk about a narrative that I'm seeing around 0:16:21.927 --> 0:16:23.727 a lot at the moment, the one that says that 0:16:23.847 --> 0:16:26.687 young men are feeling a bit jipped by feminism and 0:16:26.727 --> 0:16:28.647 the fear that it's all gone a bit too far. 0:16:29.327 --> 0:16:33.567 And the latest smart human talking about this is Julia Gillard. 0:16:33.367 --> 0:16:35.127 I just noticed that when I wrote the note in 0:16:35.167 --> 0:16:38.487 my script, I called it Julian Gillard, which I don't 0:16:38.527 --> 0:16:40.567 think she would appreciate the problem. 0:16:40.767 --> 0:16:43.247 I know you're half watching the William video. 0:16:47.367 --> 0:16:49.647 Julia is a great ex Prime minister. Let's be clear. 0:16:49.767 --> 0:16:52.247 She doesn't meddle. She's not in there like going. 0:16:52.087 --> 0:16:53.447 Out gold charge. 0:16:53.527 --> 0:16:56.167 Yeah, if I was in charge, blah blah. She's off 0:16:56.207 --> 0:16:58.647 having a very exciting third act doing good things for 0:16:58.687 --> 0:17:01.727 women all over the world. And look, she's also feeling 0:17:01.767 --> 0:17:04.407 a bit sorry for young men at the moment. In 0:17:04.447 --> 0:17:06.727 this interview that she gave to The Australian recently, they 0:17:06.767 --> 0:17:08.607 did like a cover story on her. They shot her 0:17:08.607 --> 0:17:11.087 in London. She's half the year in London, half the 0:17:11.167 --> 0:17:14.167 year in Australia. She's on the board of directors for 0:17:14.207 --> 0:17:17.287 this big sort of science y Medical Board there. She's 0:17:17.327 --> 0:17:21.407 also in charge of an organization called the Global Institute 0:17:21.407 --> 0:17:23.727 for Women's Leadership, which she founded, and it's based at 0:17:23.727 --> 0:17:27.727 a university in London and ANU in Canberra. Right, And 0:17:27.767 --> 0:17:30.127 when she was talking to The Australian, she was saying 0:17:30.127 --> 0:17:33.447 that that organization did some research lately and what it 0:17:33.527 --> 0:17:35.767 found was that the young men are pissed off with 0:17:35.887 --> 0:17:39.007 us and Julia and all of our kind. In this interview, 0:17:39.127 --> 0:17:41.527 Gilard was talking about gen Z and she was saying, 0:17:41.567 --> 0:17:44.367 how you know her famous misogyny speech. I think you'll 0:17:44.407 --> 0:17:45.767 all remember it. Here's a little bit. 0:17:46.087 --> 0:17:50.487 I will not be lectured about sexism and misogyny. 0:17:49.927 --> 0:17:52.007 By this man. I will not be. 0:17:54.207 --> 0:18:00.167 Lectured about and mithsogyny by this man, not now, not ever. 0:18:00.607 --> 0:18:03.927 The Leader of the Opposition says that people who hold 0:18:04.007 --> 0:18:08.567 sexist views and who are misogynists are not appropriate for 0:18:08.687 --> 0:18:11.487 high office. Well, I hope the Leader of the Opposition 0:18:11.567 --> 0:18:14.847 it's got a piece of paper and he is writing out. 0:18:14.647 --> 0:18:17.407 His resignation because if he wants to know. 0:18:17.487 --> 0:18:21.567 What misogyny looks like in modern Australia, he doesn't need 0:18:21.607 --> 0:18:23.807 a motion in the House of Representatives. 0:18:24.007 --> 0:18:27.767 He needs a Miro that's what he needs. Has become 0:18:27.767 --> 0:18:30.247 so iconic to that generation that it's on t shirts 0:18:30.247 --> 0:18:33.967 and tea towels, and she's in people have often come 0:18:34.047 --> 0:18:36.367 up and show her their tattoos of it and stuff, 0:18:36.407 --> 0:18:39.567 and she's like, it's amazing. But she says there's also 0:18:39.807 --> 0:18:43.047 a portion of that generation who feels that either gender 0:18:43.047 --> 0:18:45.367 equality has been reached or it's gone so far that 0:18:45.407 --> 0:18:50.287 it's now discriminating against men. She said, there's certainly a 0:18:50.367 --> 0:18:53.327 hardening of attitudes amongst young men that it's all gone 0:18:53.407 --> 0:18:56.087 too far, and for people like myself who've been an 0:18:56.127 --> 0:18:59.487 active feminist and campaigning in various ways on gender equality 0:18:59.527 --> 0:19:02.567 for literally a lifetime, we've got to be self critical 0:19:02.647 --> 0:19:06.807 and analytical about our obvious inability to take young men 0:19:06.887 --> 0:19:10.527 in particular on this journey with her. What the research 0:19:10.647 --> 0:19:13.087 found was that it was done across thirty one countries, 0:19:13.127 --> 0:19:15.647 and it showed that fifty one percent of respondents asked 0:19:15.727 --> 0:19:18.087 believe that men are being asked to do too much 0:19:18.127 --> 0:19:21.687 to support gender equality, and that sixty percent of Gen 0:19:21.807 --> 0:19:24.327 Z men, so that's men aged eighteen to twenty seven, 0:19:24.727 --> 0:19:27.767 say that they believe women's equality has gone too far, 0:19:28.047 --> 0:19:31.447 which is a much larger proportion than any other generation. 0:19:31.727 --> 0:19:33.847 It's clearly landed in a way that is felt as 0:19:33.967 --> 0:19:37.847 exclusionary or diminishing for particularly young men, she said, and 0:19:37.887 --> 0:19:41.607 it's essential that men and women have this conversation. How 0:19:41.647 --> 0:19:44.047 do we reshape the way we are campaigning for gender 0:19:44.087 --> 0:19:46.767 equality so that we're explaining what I deeply believe to 0:19:46.767 --> 0:19:49.647 be true, which is that a gender equal world will 0:19:49.647 --> 0:19:53.407 be better for everyone? Jesse, How do we reshape the 0:19:53.407 --> 0:19:55.887 way we are campaigning so that we are explaining that 0:19:55.967 --> 0:19:58.167 a gender equal world will be better for everyone? 0:19:58.607 --> 0:20:00.727 I think this is really smart, and I agree with 0:20:00.807 --> 0:20:03.727 everything that she says. I don't think it is actually 0:20:03.767 --> 0:20:07.847 about feminism going too far, or feminism having failed, or 0:20:07.887 --> 0:20:11.527 any criticism of female empowerment. I think that would be 0:20:11.647 --> 0:20:19.127 to misread what she's saying. It's about looking at what's happened. 0:20:19.167 --> 0:20:22.807 I mean, most of the twentieth century was so focused 0:20:22.847 --> 0:20:25.327 on reimagining what it is to be a woman and 0:20:25.367 --> 0:20:29.687 broadening that and remolding it and unpacking it imperfectly but 0:20:29.887 --> 0:20:32.887 in exciting and revolutionary ways, and we just didn't do 0:20:32.967 --> 0:20:35.047 the same to what it means to be a man 0:20:35.367 --> 0:20:39.647 like that still has remained fairly fairly stuck. And I 0:20:39.647 --> 0:20:43.047 think what she's looking at is the language of feminism, 0:20:44.007 --> 0:20:47.807 what's existing in the zeitgeist, and whether or not it's working, 0:20:48.487 --> 0:20:51.687 and the message that. 0:20:52.287 --> 0:20:54.567 Is intended and how it's landing. Right. 0:20:54.967 --> 0:20:59.487 So it's basic psychology that if you keep yelling at 0:20:59.527 --> 0:21:02.727 a three year old that they're naughty, then they will 0:21:03.127 --> 0:21:07.647 become naughty. That if you corner someone for long enough 0:21:07.647 --> 0:21:12.247 and tell them how bad they are, then they've only 0:21:12.287 --> 0:21:15.647 got one way to go and they can sort of 0:21:15.927 --> 0:21:18.727 lash out. And that sounds like I'm blaming feminism for 0:21:18.767 --> 0:21:20.927 men's actions, and it's absolutely not what I'm doing. 0:21:21.007 --> 0:21:23.527 In that analogy. Who's doing the yelling and saying that 0:21:23.567 --> 0:21:24.087 they're bad? 0:21:24.407 --> 0:21:25.807 You know what I mean? 0:21:27.447 --> 0:21:31.247 Because I don't think that feminism is necessarily the dominant 0:21:31.247 --> 0:21:33.247 discourse either, Like I think that there's a lot of 0:21:33.287 --> 0:21:38.647 messaging happening, but I think it is a discourse that 0:21:38.767 --> 0:21:44.407 pervades like education young men. What I think is missing 0:21:44.487 --> 0:21:48.047 from that is any vision of what it is to 0:21:48.127 --> 0:21:54.367 be a man or like a good man. If there 0:21:54.367 --> 0:21:56.327 are messages, and I suppose this has a lot to 0:21:56.367 --> 0:21:59.247 do with the news more so than I would say feminism, 0:21:59.287 --> 0:22:00.607 But like the front page of the paper. It's it's 0:22:00.607 --> 0:22:03.607 all like domestic violence, and that's a story that needs 0:22:03.607 --> 0:22:05.767 to be told all the time. We've got domestic violence, 0:22:06.007 --> 0:22:10.127 we've got sexual assault. These things are really important stories. 0:22:10.847 --> 0:22:17.087 But if you tell men that they as a cohort, 0:22:17.727 --> 0:22:21.487 are rapists and that they are. 0:22:21.447 --> 0:22:23.487 Violent or rapists in waiting. 0:22:23.447 --> 0:22:25.967 In waiting exactly, and that they are violent, and if 0:22:26.007 --> 0:22:29.767 we provide no alternative image of what it is to 0:22:29.807 --> 0:22:32.767 be a man, then of course Andrew Tate is going 0:22:32.807 --> 0:22:35.807 to look appealing because he's the first man who has 0:22:35.807 --> 0:22:38.967 a difference, who was potentially said to them, here's what 0:22:39.047 --> 0:22:43.927 it is to be strong, to be alpha, to be not. 0:22:43.887 --> 0:22:45.687 A shame but a man. 0:22:45.687 --> 0:22:50.967 But his version of masculinity is in opposition to femininity, right, 0:22:51.047 --> 0:22:51.967 and so are a lot of. 0:22:51.927 --> 0:22:53.967 These guys who are in feminism. 0:22:54.207 --> 0:22:58.087 Well well, women full stop yea. And she she says 0:22:58.127 --> 0:23:00.447 this in the thing She's I mean, Julia Gillard says 0:23:00.447 --> 0:23:02.287 this in the interview. She says that, you know, the 0:23:02.327 --> 0:23:06.167 Andrew Tates have stepped into the space. They set up 0:23:06.207 --> 0:23:10.527 everything about masculinity as basically or position to women, so 0:23:10.527 --> 0:23:14.087 that a powerful man subjugates women, they are in charge 0:23:14.127 --> 0:23:14.447 of them. 0:23:14.527 --> 0:23:16.047 So that it's like a zero sum game. 0:23:16.207 --> 0:23:21.247 So any power or equality that women get comes at 0:23:21.247 --> 0:23:22.567 the expense of men. 0:23:22.967 --> 0:23:28.327 Yes, and they're weaponizing that message it's not true. My 0:23:28.487 --> 0:23:31.727 question about this is right, is that you're in the 0:23:31.767 --> 0:23:34.927 analogy where it's like feminism has gone too far. We're 0:23:35.007 --> 0:23:37.567 yelling at men, telling them about all the time. So 0:23:37.647 --> 0:23:41.007 what do we think they're going to do? Is how 0:23:41.047 --> 0:23:44.887 do you solve issues without airing what the issues are? Right? So, 0:23:45.007 --> 0:23:48.407 when women who now have more microphones both literally and 0:23:48.407 --> 0:23:50.727 figuratively than they've ever had before and are so are 0:23:50.767 --> 0:23:54.207 speaking in open ways for the first time they ever 0:23:54.247 --> 0:23:57.287 have before about all the issues both little and really big, 0:23:57.967 --> 0:24:00.927 that affect their lives, that have to do with the 0:24:01.007 --> 0:24:03.607 fact that as women, they often aren't afforded the same 0:24:03.647 --> 0:24:07.327 amount of safety, opportunity, whatever it is we like, as 0:24:07.327 --> 0:24:10.767 I say, from micro to macro issues, how do we 0:24:11.287 --> 0:24:14.687 allow women to say all that if we have to 0:24:14.807 --> 0:24:17.247 keep telling them to not upset the men? 0:24:17.887 --> 0:24:20.167 I don't think it's I don't think it's about that. 0:24:20.247 --> 0:24:24.207 I think it's just about balancing it with some sort 0:24:24.247 --> 0:24:25.647 of with role models. 0:24:25.647 --> 0:24:26.567 And whose job is that? 0:24:26.927 --> 0:24:29.127 But hang on, you've got to bring people along with you. 0:24:29.407 --> 0:24:34.207 When you want to make cultural or social change in 0:24:34.247 --> 0:24:39.007 a democracy and in a culture, you have to instead 0:24:39.047 --> 0:24:42.247 of just imposing it upon people against their will without 0:24:42.247 --> 0:24:45.887 them understanding the benefits, you have to bring them along. 0:24:45.967 --> 0:24:47.567 Any social movement. 0:24:47.727 --> 0:24:51.567 Does that, which is what she's suggesting we've failed at right, Yeah. 0:24:51.207 --> 0:24:53.127 And I think that I under well. 0:24:53.487 --> 0:24:57.367 She says that we've been so focused on getting our 0:24:57.447 --> 0:25:00.967 voices out there and rebalancing some of the things that 0:25:01.007 --> 0:25:05.007 have been really terrible for women that it's not and 0:25:05.047 --> 0:25:07.207 it's not even that the pendulums come to fights that 0:25:07.247 --> 0:25:11.207 we haven't explained the better it's of gender equality to men. 0:25:11.807 --> 0:25:14.927 Because this is a generation Generation Z and the generation 0:25:15.047 --> 0:25:18.687 behind them have grown up marinating in the Me Too 0:25:18.767 --> 0:25:24.327 movement conversations about violence against women, words like misogyny. A 0:25:24.407 --> 0:25:29.087 generation ago, the word misogyny wasn't understood or thrown around 0:25:29.887 --> 0:25:33.167 the idea of believe women, the idea of even women 0:25:33.247 --> 0:25:37.327 having a voice. So it's been a time of massive 0:25:37.367 --> 0:25:41.167 social change, and for us, it's great that people are 0:25:41.207 --> 0:25:44.607 now talking about these things. And sometimes when everyone gets 0:25:44.687 --> 0:25:47.447 very down on oh it's terrible and things have never 0:25:47.487 --> 0:25:49.407 been worse for women, that's not true. Things have never 0:25:49.447 --> 0:25:52.647 been better for women, but we've got a long way 0:25:52.687 --> 0:25:54.567 to go and we're not finished. 0:25:55.287 --> 0:25:57.727 But I think that while we can. 0:25:57.607 --> 0:26:02.407 See the benefits of feminism and equality, what's in it 0:26:02.447 --> 0:26:02.807 for men? 0:26:02.927 --> 0:26:03.127 Now? 0:26:03.207 --> 0:26:06.287 What Glorious dynam has always said is that gender roles 0:26:06.287 --> 0:26:08.607 are prisons for men as well. Yes, they have will 0:26:08.647 --> 0:26:10.567 to walk up and someone brings you coffee, but there's 0:26:10.607 --> 0:26:13.287 still prisons. And and our Crab's written about this a 0:26:13.287 --> 0:26:16.887 lot in The Wife Drought, where a woman's life can 0:26:16.927 --> 0:26:20.527 look very very different now to generations go, but a 0:26:20.567 --> 0:26:23.527 man's life and the expectations of what a man is 0:26:23.767 --> 0:26:26.247 is still pretty much the same as their grandfathers or 0:26:26.247 --> 0:26:29.087 their great grandfathers in terms of you should be a breadwinner, 0:26:29.407 --> 0:26:31.607 you shouldn't be looking after the kids, you should go 0:26:31.647 --> 0:26:35.047 out to work, all of those things. So while our 0:26:35.087 --> 0:26:38.167 worlds have opened up, and some would say we now 0:26:38.247 --> 0:26:41.727 have the burden of having to have their career and 0:26:41.807 --> 0:26:43.687 do everything at home and raise the children like we 0:26:43.727 --> 0:26:44.287 always have. 0:26:45.087 --> 0:26:46.447 Men's kind of haven't. 0:26:47.047 --> 0:26:49.487 And our lives aren't going to get better until their 0:26:49.527 --> 0:26:50.367 lives get better too. 0:26:50.487 --> 0:26:53.327 But surely they're saying that there's have like surely the 0:26:53.407 --> 0:26:56.967 issue with this narrative that I hear everywhere at the minute, 0:26:57.007 --> 0:26:59.287 and some of it's backed up by some very compelling 0:26:59.327 --> 0:27:02.927 statistics about young men feeling lost. Yeah, they think their 0:27:02.967 --> 0:27:06.127 lives have changed. They think that we've taken stuff from them. 0:27:06.127 --> 0:27:09.007 When I say we, I mean women broadly. They're not 0:27:09.047 --> 0:27:10.967 so saying, oh, I still get to do all the 0:27:11.007 --> 0:27:12.847 things that my dad got to do, and that In fact, 0:27:12.887 --> 0:27:15.447 they're saying the opposite. They're saying, I don't know what 0:27:15.447 --> 0:27:17.407 my role is now because I thought I was meant 0:27:17.407 --> 0:27:20.447 to be the breadwinner, the protector, the keeper, the worker, 0:27:20.927 --> 0:27:23.647 and yet apparently that's not needed anymore. Right, this is 0:27:23.687 --> 0:27:27.167 the narrative that's out there, So I don't know if 0:27:27.207 --> 0:27:28.647 that's true, because they. 0:27:28.567 --> 0:27:31.407 Don't have the role models for how that can look 0:27:31.447 --> 0:27:33.927 in a positive way. Right, So it's like, you might 0:27:33.967 --> 0:27:35.967 not have to be the breadwinner and whatever, but what 0:27:36.087 --> 0:27:38.567 else can you be? It doesn't help when you've got 0:27:39.127 --> 0:27:41.727 so called feminists. And I don't hate even calling them that, 0:27:41.767 --> 0:27:43.447 because I just think they do such a disservice to 0:27:43.807 --> 0:27:47.247 what feminism is. Who are out there talking about hating 0:27:47.287 --> 0:27:52.127 men and men being rapists and male tears and being 0:27:52.167 --> 0:27:55.767 disparaging about men and laughing about the idea of not 0:27:55.807 --> 0:27:58.047 all men and insisting that it actually is all men 0:27:58.087 --> 0:28:01.447 that are the problem. That doesn't help either because it's 0:28:01.647 --> 0:28:05.967 very polarizing and very ostracizing, but it's also it's not see. 0:28:06.007 --> 0:28:08.487 One of the reason why I get defensive in this argument, 0:28:08.487 --> 0:28:11.567 which is like feminism has gone too far. Women have 0:28:11.567 --> 0:28:13.407 asked for too much. Now the men are lost. Is 0:28:13.447 --> 0:28:16.007 I'm like, Okay, then the men can step in and 0:28:16.047 --> 0:28:18.847 sort this out, right, because I feel like otherwise this 0:28:18.927 --> 0:28:21.247 narrative is it just keeps landing back on us, right, 0:28:21.727 --> 0:28:25.087 and which bits of equality and the advances that we've 0:28:25.167 --> 0:28:28.367 made over the past fifty years are we giving back 0:28:28.407 --> 0:28:29.887 to make the men feel better? Right? 0:28:30.447 --> 0:28:31.287 I don't thinking of that. 0:28:31.407 --> 0:28:33.727 But then that's you you agreeing that it's a zero 0:28:33.887 --> 0:28:35.087 some game. I'm just saying that. 0:28:35.207 --> 0:28:36.887 No, no, I'm not agreeing it's a zero some game. 0:28:36.887 --> 0:28:40.247 But I've said that's how it's being presented in this discussion. 0:28:40.767 --> 0:28:43.567 And so we're saying we need more good role models 0:28:43.567 --> 0:28:46.007 for men, which we one hundred percent do. So men off, 0:28:46.047 --> 0:28:48.687 you go sort that shit out. That's that's my position 0:28:48.727 --> 0:28:51.127 on this. Is there and there are lots There's an 0:28:51.167 --> 0:28:53.367 amazing organization that's here and in other parts of the 0:28:53.367 --> 0:28:55.567 all called man Cave. It's run by this amazing young 0:28:55.607 --> 0:28:58.207 man called Hunter Johnson. I've heard him on in this 0:28:58.247 --> 0:29:01.167 whole period of discussion about male violence. I've heard him 0:29:01.167 --> 0:29:02.607 on the radio, and se him on TV, and see 0:29:02.687 --> 0:29:06.247 him on social media everywhere. Brilliant role models doing incredible things. 0:29:06.527 --> 0:29:09.127 Let's hear them and lift them up instead of, you know, 0:29:09.647 --> 0:29:11.727 leaving the vacuum for the andrew Tates. But what I 0:29:11.767 --> 0:29:15.607 won't cop is that this is somehow feminism's problem. I 0:29:15.647 --> 0:29:18.367 won't cop that because I think that any group of 0:29:18.407 --> 0:29:21.687 people who have to share power get defensive and upset 0:29:21.687 --> 0:29:22.007 about it. 0:29:22.247 --> 0:29:24.607 Don't you think any social movement needs to win hearts 0:29:24.607 --> 0:29:26.487 and minds though well to succeed. 0:29:26.607 --> 0:29:28.927 I think that they have. I mean you're saying, I 0:29:28.967 --> 0:29:31.087 don't think that men's roles have changed. There are lots 0:29:31.127 --> 0:29:33.207 of men who now have the opportunity to live really 0:29:33.247 --> 0:29:35.247 different lives and if that works for them, it does. 0:29:35.287 --> 0:29:38.087 But if they're still struggling with this idea of well, 0:29:38.127 --> 0:29:41.167 what does masculinity mean? If it's not all about me? 0:29:41.687 --> 0:29:43.527 And what we've been talking about a lot lately, is 0:29:43.567 --> 0:29:46.487 this kind of quiet resurgence of women who are saying, well, actually, 0:29:46.847 --> 0:29:49.207 I don't want to do it all, you know, I think, 0:29:49.287 --> 0:29:50.807 isn't the whole point of it is that now we 0:29:50.887 --> 0:29:51.727 have more options? 0:29:51.807 --> 0:29:55.607 Jesse, do you think that, in quite rightly pushing back 0:29:55.647 --> 0:30:01.047 against what we call toxic masculinity, which is like sexism 0:30:01.367 --> 0:30:06.887 and you know, being disrespectful to women, that we've actually 0:30:07.727 --> 0:30:11.567 pushed back against all masculine Yeah, and demonized some just 0:30:11.727 --> 0:30:15.247 male behaviors and not necessarily toxic any sense. 0:30:15.967 --> 0:30:18.807 And I know this with friends who you know, are 0:30:18.927 --> 0:30:25.287 raising adolescent boys or work with adolescent boys. Any discussion 0:30:25.447 --> 0:30:27.767 around what it means to be a man is very fraught. 0:30:28.167 --> 0:30:29.527 It sounds toxic. 0:30:29.967 --> 0:30:31.567 You know, if you picked up a book that was 0:30:31.647 --> 0:30:36.527 like masculinity different types, or like, you know, how to 0:30:36.567 --> 0:30:38.767 be a man, you'd be like, oh my god, this 0:30:38.967 --> 0:30:41.327 is not good. So it's like we've dropped the toxic 0:30:41.887 --> 0:30:46.567 and masculinity is seen as inherently bad. And if you're 0:30:47.007 --> 0:30:51.007 told that part of you that is intrinsic to your 0:30:51.047 --> 0:30:56.047 sense of identity is bad, then I know what you're saying, Holly, 0:30:56.087 --> 0:30:59.927 but I also think we've got to look objectively at 0:30:59.927 --> 0:31:03.087 what's happening, at the Andrew tape phenomenon, at the fact 0:31:03.127 --> 0:31:07.007 that men do feel ostracized from this conversation, and try 0:31:07.047 --> 0:31:09.647 and work out how to make this work. The civil 0:31:09.727 --> 0:31:13.047 rights movement, which is just such an incredible example of 0:31:13.127 --> 0:31:16.607 and not that that's finished or you know, achieved everything 0:31:16.767 --> 0:31:19.687 it set out to, but there was incredible strides taken 0:31:19.727 --> 0:31:25.207 and that was because of a mutual discourse of respect. 0:31:25.687 --> 0:31:30.167 There wasn't this idea of like you are inherently bad 0:31:30.287 --> 0:31:32.927 because of how you were born, and that's how achievement 0:31:33.127 --> 0:31:37.727 was developed. So yeah, I think that's that's got to 0:31:37.767 --> 0:31:40.447 be the beginning. Is what is it to be a man? 0:31:41.127 --> 0:31:42.487 What are those images? 0:31:42.567 --> 0:31:44.887 No one answer to that, Like one of the things 0:31:44.927 --> 0:31:46.967 I think all the time, you know, as a mother 0:31:47.047 --> 0:31:49.567 of a sod like my little boy doesn't tick a 0:31:49.607 --> 0:31:52.767 lot of boxes of what's traditionally what being a man is. 0:31:52.847 --> 0:31:54.967 You know, he doesn't love playing football, he's not a 0:31:55.007 --> 0:31:59.247 rough and tumbled dude, he doesn't take charge. Like I think, 0:31:59.287 --> 0:32:02.887 there's no one answer. Surely, if the progress that is 0:32:02.927 --> 0:32:06.327 being made here isn't isn't unpicking all of those things, 0:32:06.367 --> 0:32:08.447 you know, like the whole idea that there's just one 0:32:08.527 --> 0:32:11.047 lane for everybody. I feel like. 0:32:11.127 --> 0:32:13.527 That's lane matter how many times have we said on 0:32:13.567 --> 0:32:15.687 this show, you can't be what you can't say. You know, 0:32:15.727 --> 0:32:19.087 you think about a girl who goes to her teenage 0:32:19.087 --> 0:32:23.487 bedroom and all the images of famous inspiring women up 0:32:23.487 --> 0:32:26.647 on her walls, and all the different paths. I just 0:32:26.767 --> 0:32:29.967 hope that there are as many varied and inspiring paths 0:32:30.207 --> 0:32:30.927 for little boys. 0:32:31.247 --> 0:32:33.207 Do you know what's really challenging as a parent of 0:32:33.247 --> 0:32:37.247 a son and a daughter is all the messages that 0:32:37.287 --> 0:32:40.567 we're giving our daughter to pump up their tires are 0:32:40.607 --> 0:32:43.687 also being heard by our sons. And remember we had 0:32:43.687 --> 0:32:46.847 this conversation quite a few years ago home where your 0:32:46.887 --> 0:32:48.647 son said to you, when I grow up, I want 0:32:48.647 --> 0:32:50.447 to be a girl. And you were like, oh, billy, 0:32:50.567 --> 0:32:52.967 that's interesting. Why And he said to you because girls 0:32:52.967 --> 0:32:55.927 can do anything. And that's when you realized, oh shit. 0:32:56.527 --> 0:33:01.047 I've been working as of course, to correcting, you know, 0:33:01.127 --> 0:33:03.487 bringing up our daughters to be strong, powerful women and 0:33:03.647 --> 0:33:06.327 not take shit from men. But then our sons have 0:33:06.407 --> 0:33:10.207 been listening, and is the implication that they're shit? 0:33:10.367 --> 0:33:13.167 Yeah? But since then it didn't take long to correct 0:33:13.167 --> 0:33:15.287 that view. For Billy, because he does still live in 0:33:15.287 --> 0:33:19.527 a world where boys are very much treasured, right, and 0:33:19.567 --> 0:33:22.327 he has has his own issues with dealing with the 0:33:22.327 --> 0:33:24.967 alpha males in his school or wherever, And he's always 0:33:25.007 --> 0:33:26.967 saying to me how surprised he is about the way 0:33:26.967 --> 0:33:28.967 that a lot of boys talk about girls right in 0:33:29.007 --> 0:33:32.287 a very disparaging way. I get all of the things 0:33:32.327 --> 0:33:34.727 we're talking about, but I also think it's a big 0:33:34.767 --> 0:33:37.807 and complicated picture that the andrew Tates and everything of 0:33:37.847 --> 0:33:39.567 the world who are now being held up as like, well, 0:33:39.567 --> 0:33:43.207 there's either this, or there's you know, there are footy players, 0:33:43.367 --> 0:33:46.367 or there are men in finance or whatever it is, 0:33:46.407 --> 0:33:49.487 these views of masculinity, and we've got to remember that 0:33:49.567 --> 0:33:52.567 the extreme ends of that, just like everything in our culture, 0:33:52.567 --> 0:33:54.687 are being promoted and elevated to us all the time 0:33:54.727 --> 0:33:57.167 by the content we're consuming, the algorithms we swim, we 0:33:57.247 --> 0:34:01.487 swim in all that stuff. In little boys actual lives, 0:34:02.087 --> 0:34:06.007 they're still struggling with toxic masculinity in inverted commerce, and 0:34:06.047 --> 0:34:08.647 they still need to hear all the time the messaging 0:34:08.687 --> 0:34:11.287 about women respect. I don't think that job is done. 0:34:11.407 --> 0:34:13.927 I don't think we can dust off our hands. I 0:34:13.967 --> 0:34:15.847 think any young woman out in the world, like the 0:34:16.007 --> 0:34:18.567 dilemma that we spoke about about sexy dress dilemma on 0:34:18.607 --> 0:34:21.127 the subs episode the other week, any young woman out 0:34:21.127 --> 0:34:23.687 in the world will tell you that it's not like, yeah, 0:34:23.927 --> 0:34:26.687 those all those issues have gone away, And I just 0:34:26.727 --> 0:34:29.847 feel like we're kind of running a risk of telling 0:34:29.887 --> 0:34:32.847 women to stop complaining because it's making the men feel bad. 0:34:35.367 --> 0:34:37.167 One Unlimited out Loud Access. 0:34:37.447 --> 0:34:41.607 We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mum 0:34:41.607 --> 0:34:44.607 and MEA subscribers. Follow the link in the show notes 0:34:44.607 --> 0:34:47.087 to get us in your ears five days a week. 0:34:47.247 --> 0:34:50.687 And a huge thank you to all our current subscribers. 0:34:51.967 --> 0:34:55.327 Have you noticed more life coaches popping up. 0:34:55.287 --> 0:34:56.447 In your Instagram feede lately? 0:34:56.647 --> 0:34:57.087 So just me? 0:34:57.567 --> 0:34:58.207 You guys got them? 0:34:58.327 --> 0:35:01.087 Yep, yeah, and they all sound the same. I actually 0:35:01.087 --> 0:35:02.047 haven't noticed it lately. 0:35:02.047 --> 0:35:03.567 I noticed it a couple of years ago, and some 0:35:03.647 --> 0:35:08.367 people I knew who really shouldn't be were touting their 0:35:08.407 --> 0:35:09.767 services as life coaches. 0:35:10.047 --> 0:35:12.927 Yes, so when you say they all look the same, 0:35:13.167 --> 0:35:16.327 there are lots of emojis in the captions. They want 0:35:16.327 --> 0:35:18.927 to empower you to manifest your best life by leaving 0:35:18.967 --> 0:35:22.447 fear behind, and often they use words like neuroscience and 0:35:22.487 --> 0:35:26.807 psychology and then encourage you to comment webinar below, and 0:35:26.847 --> 0:35:28.287 then they'll send you something they all. 0:35:28.287 --> 0:35:31.407 Read that's called a lead magnet. That's to get your 0:35:31.447 --> 0:35:32.167 email address. 0:35:32.647 --> 0:35:35.327 Okay, because they do that, and they market lots of 0:35:35.367 --> 0:35:37.327 capital letters and then lots of stuff. 0:35:37.367 --> 0:35:39.847 They all kind of feel the same. And there's a 0:35:39.887 --> 0:35:40.967 reason for that, isn't there. 0:35:41.167 --> 0:35:41.407 Well. 0:35:41.447 --> 0:35:44.767 An article published in the Sydney Morning Herald over the weekend, 0:35:44.807 --> 0:35:47.887 and it was republished from the New York Times, references 0:35:47.967 --> 0:35:51.767 a growing cohort of people speaking out about the ugly 0:35:51.887 --> 0:35:54.807 underbelly of life coaching. And basically the reason why all 0:35:54.807 --> 0:35:56.687 of these things are the same is because they're all. 0:35:56.567 --> 0:35:57.727 Being taught by the same people. 0:35:58.287 --> 0:36:02.127 So it's an unregulated industry that means anyone can call 0:36:02.167 --> 0:36:04.447 themselves a life coach that grew out of the late 0:36:04.447 --> 0:36:09.247 twentieth century, pulled towards self improvement when talk therapy was popular. 0:36:11.047 --> 0:36:14.447 It's really hard to get stats about this because of 0:36:14.567 --> 0:36:17.887 how unregulated it is, but there are suggestions that between 0:36:17.887 --> 0:36:20.487 twenty nineteen and twenty twenty two, the number of life 0:36:20.567 --> 0:36:25.367 coaches increased by fifty four percent, So it's skyrocketing, and 0:36:25.447 --> 0:36:29.687 the question is is the uptick harmful? And if it is, 0:36:29.727 --> 0:36:31.247 then who are the victims? 0:36:31.767 --> 0:36:34.607 What's interesting is that this person that I know who 0:36:35.207 --> 0:36:37.967 left a job went and became a life coach. I 0:36:38.007 --> 0:36:40.527 got a bit obsessed with, like what is going on? 0:36:40.567 --> 0:36:42.567 And then there was this one person who kept commenting, 0:36:42.847 --> 0:36:46.087 so I went and looked up her name and she 0:36:46.247 --> 0:36:48.847 was a life coach for life coaches, So she taught 0:36:48.887 --> 0:36:52.807 people how to become life coaches. And then soon enough 0:36:53.327 --> 0:36:57.047 this other woman who I knew, she was then trying 0:36:57.087 --> 0:37:00.887 to attract people to teach them how to be life coaches, 0:37:01.247 --> 0:37:03.767 when she didn't seem to be coaching anyone herself. 0:37:04.087 --> 0:37:09.207 So it's very pyramids game, very MLM, very very marketing. 0:37:09.327 --> 0:37:12.287 Can I ask a really basic question, what's a life coach? 0:37:12.607 --> 0:37:15.487 As in, like how are they different from like a 0:37:15.487 --> 0:37:18.527 therapist or a mentor, or like as someone at work? 0:37:19.007 --> 0:37:22.127 What's a life Okay, So in Australia actually something like 0:37:22.167 --> 0:37:25.847 a counselor. Anyone can legally call themselves a counselor. But 0:37:26.047 --> 0:37:28.447 if you're going to see a counselor, then chances are 0:37:28.927 --> 0:37:32.007 they've studied for minimum three years A psychologist we're talking 0:37:32.047 --> 0:37:34.047 minimum six years. You need to have some sort of 0:37:34.167 --> 0:37:37.327 tertiary education. There are bodies where you can go and 0:37:37.327 --> 0:37:39.607 look up your psychologists or a therapist or whatever and 0:37:39.647 --> 0:37:43.727 see if they, you know, actually fit the criteria. A 0:37:43.807 --> 0:37:47.007 life coach can do a week long course, a life 0:37:47.007 --> 0:37:48.767 coach can do no study. 0:37:48.687 --> 0:37:51.167 But I would go to one because. 0:37:50.807 --> 0:37:53.687 You have a problem that you're trying to solve, You 0:37:53.727 --> 0:37:57.887 want help with your career, you want things to get better, 0:37:58.127 --> 0:37:59.287 like very broad. 0:37:59.047 --> 0:38:01.567 Therapy light and so one of the reasons that people 0:38:01.607 --> 0:38:03.527 do see life coaches often is because it can be 0:38:03.607 --> 0:38:06.127 very hard and very expensive to get in to see 0:38:06.127 --> 0:38:09.807 a therapist. Life coaches do tend to be cheaper because 0:38:09.807 --> 0:38:16.167 they're unregulated and unqualified, and that brings risks. 0:38:15.807 --> 0:38:17.167 Of course, because you don't know. 0:38:17.967 --> 0:38:21.367 You could be going with some very complex issue and 0:38:21.407 --> 0:38:24.807 a mental health issue or an issue around abuse or 0:38:24.807 --> 0:38:28.767 who knows, and they might have done an hour long 0:38:28.927 --> 0:38:29.887 online course. 0:38:30.487 --> 0:38:35.047 And the people who seek out life coaches of generally 0:38:35.127 --> 0:38:38.327 vulnerable people right like, they probably have a significant, absolutely 0:38:38.447 --> 0:38:40.127 problem that they're trying to sort out in their lives. 0:38:40.727 --> 0:38:43.647 And look, that's one thing. But an expert in this 0:38:43.807 --> 0:38:46.967 article was saying that This other element is that there's 0:38:46.967 --> 0:38:48.967 a problem in the industry, as you say, Mayor, of 0:38:49.007 --> 0:38:53.127 coaches who coach coaches to become coaches. Yes, and you 0:38:53.207 --> 0:38:55.687 see a lot of people who then are promised, in 0:38:55.727 --> 0:38:58.807 your first year, you'll make one hundred thousand dollars, and 0:38:58.847 --> 0:39:01.767 then they do this thing, They've forked out tens of 0:39:01.807 --> 0:39:05.087 thousands of dollars in order to get this qualification that 0:39:05.127 --> 0:39:09.287 isn't real, and then they have no clients because of 0:39:09.287 --> 0:39:11.367 course they don't. And then they're told, well, you need 0:39:11.367 --> 0:39:13.207 to do more courses, so they do more and more, 0:39:13.327 --> 0:39:15.607 and then it's the sunt cost fallacy, which is, well, 0:39:15.647 --> 0:39:18.527 I've invested seventy thousand dollars, I can't give up now, 0:39:18.927 --> 0:39:21.567 and before you know it, you're in debt and you're 0:39:21.607 --> 0:39:24.047 trying to sell to your same two hundred Instagram followers. 0:39:24.127 --> 0:39:24.287 Right. 0:39:25.207 --> 0:39:26.767 And I've personally seen. 0:39:26.607 --> 0:39:30.447 Heaps of this, especially since COVID and my instinct, I've 0:39:30.487 --> 0:39:33.087 been trying to do this topic for ages because I 0:39:33.207 --> 0:39:38.127 find it intensely irritating. I like expertise, I know what 0:39:38.167 --> 0:39:40.247 it takes to be a psychologist, and I think. 0:39:41.047 --> 0:39:42.767 Honestly, I'm like, how dare you? 0:39:43.247 --> 0:39:47.167 What makes you think that you can help anyone with 0:39:47.207 --> 0:39:47.807 their problems. 0:39:48.567 --> 0:39:50.767 But reading this, it changed my perspective a bit. 0:39:50.647 --> 0:39:56.527 Because I thought, these are vulnerable people who often have 0:39:56.727 --> 0:39:57.327 a family. 0:39:57.567 --> 0:40:00.167 Do you mean the people who are becoming life creag Yeah, yeah, 0:40:00.287 --> 0:40:04.247 because it like all of these MLMs, it prays usually 0:40:04.287 --> 0:40:06.047 on women and usually on mothers. 0:40:06.207 --> 0:40:06.447 Yeah. 0:40:06.527 --> 0:40:10.647 So because you can work from home, it's flexible, you 0:40:10.687 --> 0:40:11.767 can be your own boss. 0:40:12.167 --> 0:40:13.447 And that's what women are craving. 0:40:13.487 --> 0:40:15.567 They want to do something, they want to bring earn 0:40:15.607 --> 0:40:18.487 an income, but maybe they can't do it around and 0:40:18.527 --> 0:40:21.967 every woman I know who's fallen victim to these things 0:40:22.527 --> 0:40:24.847 and paid money to do these courses and then of 0:40:24.887 --> 0:40:27.887 course found and years ago, ten years ago, it was 0:40:27.887 --> 0:40:30.807 all about becoming a diet coach or a nutrition coach. 0:40:31.287 --> 0:40:32.007 Is the other one. 0:40:32.167 --> 0:40:34.847 I've got all those people on my feed who were 0:40:34.887 --> 0:40:36.007 doing things where I. 0:40:36.007 --> 0:40:39.127 Go, how is this legal? How are you dishing out? 0:40:39.167 --> 0:40:42.167 You have like an online course? And then they become 0:40:42.287 --> 0:40:46.207 health coaches. And again it's the same type of woman 0:40:46.647 --> 0:40:49.047 who it tends to be a woman who really needs 0:40:49.087 --> 0:40:53.167 money or who really can't work in a regular job 0:40:53.247 --> 0:40:55.727 or doesn't want to. It's also a get rich quick 0:40:55.967 --> 0:40:58.487 a lot of promises are made and it looks too 0:40:58.487 --> 0:40:59.207 good to be true. 0:40:59.007 --> 0:40:59.527 Because it is. 0:40:59.887 --> 0:41:02.367 I know lots of people though love their coaches, Like 0:41:02.447 --> 0:41:06.367 I know lots of successful people who have a coach. Yeah, 0:41:06.487 --> 0:41:08.607 I was on a call with I don't know, some 0:41:08.727 --> 0:41:11.487 writer person who was like, I just got off the 0:41:11.487 --> 0:41:13.687 call with my coach in LA and I've never felt 0:41:13.687 --> 0:41:15.727 more fighted up and this is going to be amazing, 0:41:15.927 --> 0:41:17.407 And I'm like, yeah, I want a bit of that. 0:41:17.567 --> 0:41:20.407 I entirely understand the appeal because the thing is as 0:41:20.447 --> 0:41:23.207 a therapist a as you've said me, or there's barriers, 0:41:23.247 --> 0:41:26.047 it's expensive, but also I might not want to just 0:41:26.207 --> 0:41:29.447 unpack all my inner everything. I might just want someone 0:41:29.447 --> 0:41:31.567 to tell me how to be more effective, how to 0:41:31.607 --> 0:41:34.327 be more efficient, how do I repay rise, how do whatever? 0:41:34.327 --> 0:41:37.447 It is? Like, I can entirely understand the appeal of 0:41:37.487 --> 0:41:42.247 a coach, so I don't really care about their certificates 0:41:42.327 --> 0:41:43.647 and their qualifications. 0:41:43.687 --> 0:41:47.087 If it works, yes, And that's a really good point 0:41:47.127 --> 0:41:50.487 because life coaches aren't all made equal, which is the 0:41:50.487 --> 0:41:52.607 same obviously with a therapist. And there are some who 0:41:52.687 --> 0:41:56.967 have who are actually incredibly qualified, and they're even like 0:41:57.447 --> 0:41:59.887 Ben Crow, who's not really a life coach, but he's. 0:41:59.687 --> 0:42:03.647 A similar worldness, innovational person. Like who doesn't want someone 0:42:03.727 --> 0:42:05.327 like that in their corner? Who's going to go Well, 0:42:05.367 --> 0:42:07.447 the way that you should have this conversation is like this, 0:42:07.807 --> 0:42:09.127 and the way that you should do that is like 0:42:09.647 --> 0:42:11.487 and maybe, if you think of it, if you'd structure 0:42:11.487 --> 0:42:13.487 your day a bit. I mean, we're all obsessed with 0:42:13.487 --> 0:42:16.287 that stuff, right, So I understand the need. So what 0:42:16.327 --> 0:42:19.087 we're talking about here is the fact that if you're 0:42:19.927 --> 0:42:22.727 looking for that, you have to be wary that you're 0:42:22.727 --> 0:42:28.367 not just getting poor old Betty who was sold this 0:42:28.487 --> 0:42:31.207 pyramid scheme idea that she was going to make herself 0:42:31.287 --> 0:42:33.247 rich when really she's just yeah. 0:42:33.287 --> 0:42:36.407 Because then suddenly Betty's trying to convince you that what 0:42:36.447 --> 0:42:38.967 you need to do is also become a coach. Yes, 0:42:39.127 --> 0:42:41.927 that's the answer. So that's different because when someone is 0:42:41.927 --> 0:42:44.567 actually coaching you. And I've seen coaches before. Although someone 0:42:44.607 --> 0:42:46.607 recommended a new therapist to me recently, I went and 0:42:46.647 --> 0:42:48.527 saw her, and before I went, I looked her up 0:42:48.567 --> 0:42:51.167 and I was like, Oh, she's actually not qualified as 0:42:51.207 --> 0:42:54.087 a therapist. She's more of a coach, and I actually 0:42:54.087 --> 0:42:55.847 found her great. Would I go back to her. Yes 0:42:55.887 --> 0:42:59.807 I would, but it's more about she didn't suggest that 0:42:59.887 --> 0:43:00.287 I then. 0:43:00.247 --> 0:43:02.447 Become a coach and. 0:43:02.407 --> 0:43:05.567 Do pay her money apart from the sessions that I 0:43:05.647 --> 0:43:08.887 was seeing her with. So as you say, you can 0:43:09.007 --> 0:43:11.847 be vulnerable when someone sees a coach. If they work 0:43:11.967 --> 0:43:14.487 and if they've got expertise, that's great. But I guess 0:43:14.567 --> 0:43:17.487 what we're also wanting to flag is this idea of 0:43:18.727 --> 0:43:21.087 women who think or maybe I'll become a coach. 0:43:21.447 --> 0:43:23.447 So it's the two it's the two risks. 0:43:23.687 --> 0:43:29.247 We also feel unqualified to live and by that, yes 0:43:29.367 --> 0:43:32.647 we do. Like That's the thing, right, is that the 0:43:32.647 --> 0:43:35.287 majority of these clients are also women. 0:43:35.647 --> 0:43:36.247 I must say. 0:43:36.447 --> 0:43:38.447 One of the richest people I know is a life 0:43:38.487 --> 0:43:40.207 coach and it's a family friend. 0:43:40.287 --> 0:43:43.167 Who makes unbelievable money. 0:43:43.207 --> 0:43:45.807 She has siblings who are in who's a finance bro 0:43:45.967 --> 0:43:48.527 and a blar and really really high up, and they 0:43:48.687 --> 0:43:50.167 laughed at her when she said she was going to 0:43:50.167 --> 0:43:52.367 be a life coach, and now she is living in some. 0:43:54.047 --> 0:43:55.607 Because now everybody's gurgling. 0:43:55.647 --> 0:43:57.567 Life coach can also be a business coach. 0:43:57.647 --> 0:44:01.767 You can be there are coaches, But I think you've 0:44:01.807 --> 0:44:03.247 hit the nail on the head there jesse A, but 0:44:03.367 --> 0:44:06.247 we don't feel qualified to live because I think that 0:44:06.447 --> 0:44:10.967 surely this enthusiasm for coaches is also part of our isolation. 0:44:11.127 --> 0:44:11.247 Right. 0:44:11.287 --> 0:44:13.047 We spend a lot of time looking at our phones, 0:44:13.087 --> 0:44:16.127 and everybody's more successful than we are. That's the impression 0:44:16.127 --> 0:44:18.967 you're getting from your algorithm. And so you're like, I 0:44:19.007 --> 0:44:22.367 don't understand. And it's part of the whole push for 0:44:22.407 --> 0:44:23.767 self improvement and productivity. 0:44:23.847 --> 0:44:24.007 Right. 0:44:24.047 --> 0:44:26.407 We all think if I just changed this and this 0:44:26.487 --> 0:44:28.687 and this, I could be that and that and that. 0:44:29.087 --> 0:44:32.367 And your family friend apparently hears that, but for most 0:44:32.447 --> 0:44:34.007 of us, we're probably doing okay. 0:44:34.807 --> 0:44:38.567 Yes, there's no like golden ticket. 0:44:38.687 --> 0:44:41.407 And I've seen as well this thing of some people 0:44:41.407 --> 0:44:43.447 I know who have really big followings and maybe they've 0:44:43.447 --> 0:44:46.407 had other careers in entertainment or whatever, and they've got 0:44:46.447 --> 0:44:48.287 one hundred thousand followers and they don't know what to 0:44:48.287 --> 0:44:48.647 do with it. 0:44:49.167 --> 0:44:50.847 They've all become life coaches. 0:44:50.487 --> 0:44:52.207 Because it's like, that's how I can monetize it. There 0:44:52.287 --> 0:44:53.447 must be money in course. 0:44:53.327 --> 0:44:55.207 But well that's the point. 0:44:55.327 --> 0:44:58.727 That's why the whole idea of an MLM is that 0:44:58.967 --> 0:45:00.287 there are no customers. 0:45:00.687 --> 0:45:03.607 There's just other people that you bring in to sell. 0:45:04.047 --> 0:45:07.807 Yeah, So it's actually that's why the line between a 0:45:07.807 --> 0:45:12.167 period scheme and EMMA is very fine, and regulators often 0:45:12.287 --> 0:45:14.487 have a little bit of trouble because it can be 0:45:14.527 --> 0:45:18.447 hard to prove that there aren't any potential customers for 0:45:18.487 --> 0:45:20.967 the service that you're asking, you know, whether it's buy 0:45:21.007 --> 0:45:24.007 all of these leggings, and then no one wants to 0:45:24.007 --> 0:45:25.607 buy the leggings from you, so you've just got to 0:45:25.647 --> 0:45:28.687 find other people who are in your what's called a downline, 0:45:29.047 --> 0:45:31.327 who then also sell the leggings and give you a 0:45:31.327 --> 0:45:32.207 little bit of a cut. 0:45:32.327 --> 0:45:33.247 But they can't. 0:45:32.967 --> 0:45:35.527 Find anyone either, so they've then got to find more people. 0:45:35.767 --> 0:45:39.327 And so that's how that's how the MLM works, and that's. 0:45:39.167 --> 0:45:39.647 What this is. 0:45:39.687 --> 0:45:44.047 So thinking that there's this huge hunger and need and 0:45:44.207 --> 0:45:48.527 market for a regular person who's just done a course 0:45:48.567 --> 0:45:50.687 and he's going to become a life coach, it's just 0:45:50.727 --> 0:45:53.127 not true. It's just not like there are some people 0:45:53.127 --> 0:45:54.887 who are good and who who have clients and who 0:45:55.007 --> 0:45:57.927 do it well. But it's really unlikely that you're going 0:45:57.967 --> 0:45:59.807 to be one of those people just from doing a 0:45:59.847 --> 0:46:00.767 course on the internet. 0:46:01.047 --> 0:46:03.767 Now in the show notes are the two registered like 0:46:03.847 --> 0:46:05.567 the way that you can tell if the person that 0:46:05.567 --> 0:46:07.647 you're saying, whether it's a therapist or a counselor or 0:46:07.687 --> 0:46:11.607 a psychologist, they hit the criteria. And you know that's 0:46:11.647 --> 0:46:13.967 not to say there aren't great life coaches, but if 0:46:14.007 --> 0:46:16.487 you want to triple check links in the show notes. 0:46:18.887 --> 0:46:22.487 Jesse, what's the way in which you reckon motherhood has 0:46:22.567 --> 0:46:23.967 changed you most? 0:46:24.967 --> 0:46:31.767 Ooh, I something has happened to my I feel like, 0:46:31.847 --> 0:46:35.007 to my biology, to my brain, to something that has 0:46:35.087 --> 0:46:38.367 given me patience that I didn't have. I was an 0:46:38.367 --> 0:46:43.847 incredibly impatient person before and quite prone to panic, and 0:46:43.887 --> 0:46:47.967 I have been surprised at how that has changed. Like 0:46:47.967 --> 0:46:49.527 if you'd told me that I could spend four or 0:46:49.527 --> 0:46:50.887 five hours in a room trying to put a baby 0:46:50.927 --> 0:46:52.927 to sleep, I would have gone, I'm not capable of that. 0:46:53.087 --> 0:46:54.207 So something has changed. 0:46:54.247 --> 0:46:56.167 Yeah, I think I've lost that again. I think you've 0:46:56.207 --> 0:46:57.927 got it and then you lose it as your kids 0:46:57.967 --> 0:46:58.487 get older. 0:46:59.007 --> 0:47:01.567 We spoke while you're away with Gemma, who is a 0:47:01.727 --> 0:47:05.847 relatively new mother as well, about mattrescence and how becoming 0:47:05.847 --> 0:47:07.207 a mother changes your identity. 0:47:07.247 --> 0:47:08.407 So it's not just about how it. 0:47:08.447 --> 0:47:10.767 Changes your lifestyle, which of course it does, but how 0:47:10.767 --> 0:47:12.167 it can really change your identity. 0:47:12.567 --> 0:47:15.247 I was heavily pregnant and terrified and I went and 0:47:15.247 --> 0:47:17.527 had brunch with Gemma before I had learner. 0:47:17.327 --> 0:47:20.367 And oh my god, speaking of life coaches. 0:47:21.807 --> 0:47:24.447 Through that period, she's very, very wise, and like she 0:47:25.327 --> 0:47:27.567 just she told me the good bits and was like, 0:47:27.607 --> 0:47:30.527 you're prepared for the sleep. All of that and her 0:47:30.647 --> 0:47:33.127 birth she didn't have a great she didn't have a 0:47:33.127 --> 0:47:36.087 great one, but I have found her insights about motherhood 0:47:36.167 --> 0:47:36.727 very very h. 0:47:36.687 --> 0:47:39.087 We spoke about how it will often affect a woman's 0:47:39.087 --> 0:47:41.887 identity but not a man's identity in that same way, 0:47:41.927 --> 0:47:42.767 and how nothing. 0:47:42.527 --> 0:47:45.127 Really prepares you for that, and out loud as if. 0:47:44.967 --> 0:47:47.367 That sounds like the most boring thing you could ever 0:47:47.407 --> 0:47:49.527 even imagine listening to because you don't have kids, you 0:47:49.527 --> 0:47:53.127 don't want kids, or you just are not interested. We 0:47:53.167 --> 0:47:55.567 have also got a No Filter episode this week about 0:47:55.607 --> 0:47:57.927 an interview with a woman who has got kids and 0:47:57.967 --> 0:48:00.087 has decided not to have kids, and she talks about 0:48:00.127 --> 0:48:02.887 what her life is like at forty five, having made 0:48:02.887 --> 0:48:04.527 that decision about eight or nine. 0:48:04.647 --> 0:48:05.407 I love that. 0:48:05.567 --> 0:48:07.767 So we've got you covered no matter what you want 0:48:07.767 --> 0:48:10.447 to listen to. Next will link to those both of 0:48:10.487 --> 0:48:11.047 those episodes. 0:48:11.047 --> 0:48:13.967 In the show notes, a big thank you friends for 0:48:14.087 --> 0:48:15.967 listening to today's show, and a big thank you to 0:48:15.967 --> 0:48:18.607 you Jesse Stevens for coming back from your holiday. We 0:48:18.687 --> 0:48:21.367 missed you. I'm glad you decided to return. I thought 0:48:21.407 --> 0:48:23.087 we're looking at that flight you might have gone and 0:48:23.127 --> 0:48:25.247 I'm just going to stay, which. 0:48:25.087 --> 0:48:28.207 Is exactly I'm never coming back. I consider that it's 0:48:28.207 --> 0:48:28.807 been amazing. 0:48:28.847 --> 0:48:30.487 A big thank you to our team, of course for 0:48:30.607 --> 0:48:32.007 putting today's show together. 0:48:32.287 --> 0:48:33.767 We'll be back in your ears tomorrow. 0:48:34.087 --> 0:48:37.807 Bye. 0:48:41.847 --> 0:48:45.007 Shout out to any Mum and mia subscribers listening. If 0:48:45.047 --> 0:48:47.607 you love the show and want to support us as well, 0:48:47.807 --> 0:48:50.207 subscribing to Mom and Miya is the very best way 0:48:50.247 --> 0:48:50.727 to do so. 0:48:50.807 --> 0:48:52.767 There is a link in the episode description.