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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mea podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mama Mer acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello, Hello, and welcome

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Speaker 2: to Mama Mina out Loud. It's what women are actually

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Speaker 2: talking about on Monday, the twenty fourth of June.

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Speaker 1: I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm Mea Friedman.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Jesse Stevens. I'm back from my European holidays.

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Speaker 2: I'm making an applause.

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Speaker 3: Crowdgo wild, thank you.

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Speaker 4: Look.

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Speaker 3: I've had a few out louders message saying how the

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Speaker 3: flight go.

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Speaker 4: I've been quiet. There's a reason why I've been quiet, because.

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Speaker 3: We were thoughts and prayers, thoughts like, well, your thoughts

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Speaker 3: and prayers.

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Speaker 1: Didn't help my thoughts and my prayers.

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Speaker 3: It's going to come up on the best and worst

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Speaker 3: segment on Friday's episode. Everyone can take a little guess

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Speaker 3: as to which category will fall into.

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Speaker 5: I was really bummed that you didn't have Wi Fi

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Speaker 5: on the flight because I want to constant update.

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Speaker 3: I had a little bit of Wi Fi. Luca was

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Speaker 3: getting updates. I'll tell you that he was getting up

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Speaker 3: all day, all fourteen hours of that second leg. On

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Speaker 3: tomorrow's subscriber episode, I'm going to do a big kind.

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Speaker 1: Of catch up about the we want to hear about.

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Speaker 3: True A real highlight was when I was so jet

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Speaker 3: lagged when we landed that I found myself at two

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Speaker 3: am holding Luner upside down.

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Speaker 4: So there'll be nice tidbits. There was a hospital visit.

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Speaker 4: There's so much I need to tell you guys about.

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Speaker 5: Wait, yeah, yeah, wouldn't be Jesse Stevens holiday at a

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Speaker 5: hospital visit.

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Speaker 3: I was actually relieved when we ended up in the

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Speaker 3: French hospital. Oh thank god. All right, we have done

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Speaker 3: the hospital. Now we can get on with our holiday.

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Speaker 2: On the show today, two out loud obsessions collided in

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Speaker 2: a rainbow explosion of sparkly corsets and daggy dad dancing

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Speaker 2: on the weekend. Yes, we're talking about that time Taylor

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Speaker 2: Swift granted an audience to the future King of England,

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Speaker 2: also one of Australia's most famous feminists, our first female

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Speaker 2: Prime Minister, thinks we have failed to bring young men

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Speaker 2: along with us on our mind towards equality.

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Speaker 1: Is she right?

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Speaker 2: And do you need a live coach, sweetie or do

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Speaker 2: you want to be one? The great live coach pyramid scheme,

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Speaker 2: but first Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 4: In case he missed it.

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Speaker 3: A Kiwi woman is suing her ex for not giving

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Speaker 3: her a ride to the airport and she is my idol.

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Speaker 3: A New Zealand woman has taken her boyfriend to small

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Speaker 3: Claims court over a broken promise to drive her to

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Speaker 3: the airport and watch her dogs during her trip, arguing

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Speaker 3: that the agreement represented an oral contract. She was going

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Speaker 3: to a concert with friends and he agreed to take

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Speaker 3: her to the airport between ten and ten fifteen am,

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Speaker 3: but then he did not and she missed her flight.

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Speaker 1: Ooh, was he just late or he like ghosted her?

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Speaker 4: I think he ghosted her.

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Speaker 5: They met together six years. I thought that was interesting.

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Speaker 5: This wasn't someone she just met on the weekend.

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Speaker 4: He really didn't want to take her to the airport.

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Speaker 3: The Disputes Tribunal where this woman took her case looks

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Speaker 3: at smaller claims and she basically wanted financial damages for

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Speaker 3: her missed flight, but also shuttle.

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Speaker 2: She had to catch to the airport.

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Speaker 4: Actually no longer had a.

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Speaker 1: Lift and she had to put a dogs in boarding.

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Speaker 1: I think was.

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Speaker 3: Looking it is expensive, especially last minute. What was she

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Speaker 3: to do she had to go to her concert.

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Speaker 1: I hope she didn't miss it. Sy're going to drive you.

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Speaker 4: No one wants to get the bus, not to the airport.

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Speaker 3: The tribunal basically said that sometimes friends or romantic partners

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Speaker 3: break promises, but that's none of their business, and she

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Speaker 3: will not be reimbursed by anyone for the inconvenience caused.

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Speaker 3: I feel inspired to sue a lot of people, but

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Speaker 3: most of all, I just love that not dropping someone

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Speaker 3: off at the airport is in the realm of criminal

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Speaker 3: charges where it belongs.

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Speaker 4: Do you drop people at the airport?

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Speaker 1: I do?

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Speaker 5: You know I do, because I've dropped you at the airport,

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Speaker 5: But no one else in my family does. No, they don't.

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Speaker 5: I love an airport drop off, but not as much

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Speaker 5: as I love an airport pick up. In fact, when

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Speaker 5: you were you home on Sunday, I.

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Speaker 3: Was going, look, I love yer, but if she is

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Speaker 3: at that gate, I'm just.

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Speaker 2: It's going to know that.

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Speaker 1: I knew that, and I'm self censored.

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Speaker 5: So I was saying that I was I said to Luca,

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Speaker 5: I was just thinking about and I was going to say,

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Speaker 5: but I decided no, that you need some time as

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Speaker 5: a family and I just said I was thinking about

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Speaker 5: when Jesse and he just goes.

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Speaker 2: Nope, you know this is like this story is one

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Speaker 2: of the texts in the canon of my life is

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Speaker 2: when Harry met Sally. The greatest movie ever made and

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Speaker 2: the wisdom in there that Harry tells Sally about. He

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Speaker 2: bumps into her an airport and he goes, oh, that

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Speaker 2: relationship must be new, because she's like kissing her guy

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Speaker 2: at the gate and.

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Speaker 1: She's about to get on a plane.

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Speaker 2: And she goes, how did you know that? We've been

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Speaker 2: since the other three months? How did you know that?

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Speaker 2: And he goes, because you only ever take people to

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Speaker 2: the airport at the beginning of a relationship. And he said,

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Speaker 2: that's why I never take people to the airport at

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Speaker 2: the beginning of a relationship, so they can never turn

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Speaker 2: around to me and say, you used to take me

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Speaker 2: to the airport, do you?

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Speaker 4: Because your partner travels are bitch?

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Speaker 2: No, never ever pick like I like a pickup, but

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Speaker 2: I don't drop now.

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Speaker 3: Oh, there's something so sad about making your own way

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Speaker 3: to and from an airport.

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Speaker 1: That I've got.

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Speaker 2: But I know people who feel that way.

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Speaker 1: I don't.

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Speaker 2: I don't. I do like to be met at long distance.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god. When I arrived at Manchester and if

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Speaker 2: my family weren't there, I would be a mess right

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Speaker 2: long distance for sure, But like if you're flying to

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Speaker 2: Melbourne or whatever, like I wouldn't expect anyone to pick

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Speaker 2: me up or drop me off.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, but I'm a slut for an airport reunion.

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Speaker 1: I love it. Yeah, for like a long haul, not

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Speaker 1: short haul.

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Speaker 3: She was promised, she was promised, she was promised that

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Speaker 3: he would drive her. And I think that this could

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Speaker 3: possibly be a new podcast idea for us, which is

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Speaker 3: petty crimes. Yes. Can you imagine if out Louders just

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Speaker 3: were like, I have a petty crime and we were

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Speaker 3: the tribunal like Judge Dude liked except.

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Speaker 4: Its us and people just say whether they're guilty or not.

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Speaker 4: I declare him very guilty.

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Speaker 2: I agree fully guilty.

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Speaker 5: Out Louders, do you think we want to hear from

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Speaker 5: you about your petty crime?

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Speaker 2: We could turn it into a song like I'm looking at.

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Speaker 5: The intersection of Holly in my Hyperfixations. Happened over the

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Speaker 5: weekend with members of the royal family attending the Taylor

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Speaker 5: Swift concert in London and having a sing and a

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Speaker 5: dance and a backstage selfie with Taylor herself afterwards the

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Speaker 5: ultimate collab, which was excellent for both brands. May it

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Speaker 5: be said it was very mutually beneficial. I thought it

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Speaker 5: was very well received by the Internet, who really frothed

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Speaker 5: over Prince William dancing along with two of his small

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Speaker 5: royal children, Prince George and Princess Charlotte in a posh

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Speaker 5: box overlooking the masses at Wimbley Stadium. Fun fact, this

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Speaker 5: is not the first time the pair have met backstage.

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Speaker 5: They did a duet Prince William and Taylor Swift in

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Speaker 5: a Kensington Palace charity event with bon John Bovy Try

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Speaker 5: again Bon Jovi. They sang Living on a Prayer in

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Speaker 5: twenty thirteen. Here's a little piece of that.

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Speaker 2: You go here, Taylor.

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Speaker 4: Did we need to hear that? Carry out? It was

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Speaker 4: like when mea wants to sing to us.

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Speaker 5: I thought that was good. Holly, were you wearing your pants?

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Speaker 5: Were excitement?

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Speaker 2: So excited? It was really funny because my Instagram feed

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Speaker 2: at the weekend was just famous people in London seeing

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Speaker 2: Taylor Swift. And I mean no one in Australia needs

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Speaker 2: to be told this because we've been through it ourselves,

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Speaker 2: but it's that moment where everybody's there and there's a

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Speaker 2: sort of real zeitgeistee moment of who's hot. Because all

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Speaker 2: the celebrities I saw wanted their picture taken with Nicola

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Speaker 2: Cocklan from Bridgeton, so because she was there. So there's

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Speaker 2: hern Karra Delavin and her and j VN and her

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Speaker 2: and all these people, and I was just like, she's

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Speaker 2: obviously the person you want to sit next to your

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Speaker 2: box because no is invited into the Royal Box where

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Speaker 2: William was dad dancing, and I thought.

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Speaker 1: I thought he was quite good at his dancing was terrible.

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Speaker 2: One of my friends just message and said it makes

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Speaker 2: me crawl up inside my bumhole a little bit, and

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Speaker 2: I know what she meant. I thought he was.

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Speaker 3: Quite I liked imagining that he did that because it

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Speaker 3: was to shake it off. And I was thinking when

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Speaker 3: Spare came out and when he had a rough trot,

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Speaker 3: I imagine him in his palation doing his little jig.

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Speaker 3: And you'll notice in that video Charlotte and George and

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Speaker 3: know where to be saying it's just William.

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Speaker 4: He's there on his own.

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Speaker 5: Sometimes, like when you're at the concert I know neither

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Speaker 5: review went, but it just it comes out of you.

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Speaker 2: You can't only help it, you can't help it. I

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Speaker 2: think this is brilliant. We talked last week about Kate's

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Speaker 2: sort of semi return to public life. She came out

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Speaker 2: and did the trooping of the color to let everybody

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Speaker 2: know that she's you know, she's halfway through her cancer treatment,

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Speaker 2: and we were saying how we thought that was brilliantly handled.

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Speaker 2: I think this is poignant pr brilliance because there's something

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Speaker 2: about the dad taking his kids to see he's swifty.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure that she Kate would have been there if

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Speaker 2: she was able to be there, so it was beautiful

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Speaker 2: that he took them. And then I think that the

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Speaker 2: daggy dad dancing with such abandon in such a public

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Speaker 2: spot is very endearing.

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Speaker 4: It was so human.

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Speaker 3: And to see him the smile on his face in

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Speaker 3: that selfie with Taylor Swift, I've never seen him smile.

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Speaker 2: And she posted it, and she doesn't usually post all

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Speaker 2: her celebrity selfies.

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Speaker 1: Does she?

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Speaker 5: No, she doesn't usually take a lot of selfies. Probably,

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Speaker 5: but also someone took a photo of her taking the

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Speaker 5: selfie that was probably what you saw, which is interesting,

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Speaker 5: which I think it was probably her publicist Tree Paint,

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Speaker 5: or maybe Travis.

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Speaker 2: Because he was in one of the pictures too. Right,

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Speaker 2: So this worked so well on me that we always

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Speaker 2: talk on the show about how I'm obsessed with the royals,

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Speaker 2: but I'm not a royalist, right, I'm a Republican. I

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Speaker 2: generally think off with the heads, et cetera. But when

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Speaker 2: I was watching this on Saturday, the magic it was

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Speaker 2: working on me. I was going, Oh, I think he'll

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Speaker 2: be a good king. Oh, I don't know, Maybe we

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Speaker 2: don't need to rush that republican business because look, he's

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Speaker 2: so human.

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Speaker 4: It's like on my mad it'd be great on my money.

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Speaker 2: Look, I definitely worked so no notes on the Wills

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Speaker 2: and Kate pr team that since the stuff up of

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Speaker 2: March and the photo shop incident, Oh I forgot that

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Speaker 2: really got their shit together. Because also it was Wills's

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Speaker 2: birthday when he went to Taylor Swift and Kate posted

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Speaker 2: some beautiful pictures of him and the kids jumping off

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Speaker 2: sand dunes and stuff and just looking which is very different, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: very different.

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Speaker 3: I loved seeing Charlotte and George with their big smiles too,

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Speaker 3: because I thought they've had a really rough time as well,

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Speaker 3: and the idea that their mum has been seeking. I

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Speaker 3: know that we can look at this as a story

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Speaker 3: and unpack it in terms of the media scrutiny, but

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Speaker 3: there's a family who's in pain, and so to see

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Speaker 3: that as a joyful moment and Charlotte has her sparkles

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Speaker 3: on and you just know that she was like it.

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Speaker 3: My first reaction to that, because we were texting about it,

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Speaker 3: was Megan.

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Speaker 4: Megan's gonna be pissed because Meghan.

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Speaker 3: We know, asked Taylor to be on a podcast in

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Speaker 3: Taylor's archetypes.

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Speaker 4: Yes, Taylor couldn't. And then I.

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Speaker 1: Remember Taylor wouldn't.

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Speaker 2: Taylor doesn't do a lot of interviews. That does not

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Speaker 2: even for Megan.

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Speaker 1: No.

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Speaker 3: So I saw that and I'm like, if I was

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Speaker 3: the Princess of La and I had moved to La,

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Speaker 3: I would think that Taylor was on my team and

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Speaker 3: Taylor's on their team. And then I remembered that Megan

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Speaker 3: Mirkael went to the Taylor Swift concept in La. I

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Speaker 3: have no guess who wasn't in a VIP box. Guess

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Speaker 3: who was with the common man?

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Speaker 5: No, but that just to be clear, he wasn't in

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Speaker 5: Taylor's box.

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Speaker 1: Taylor's box is different. Okay, he was just enough.

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Speaker 5: Posh Wembley box. So anyone go in, like if you've

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Speaker 5: got enough money or you're invited.

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Speaker 2: By well, let's be on this. He probably has a

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Speaker 2: box at Wembley, like it's where all the football games are.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, I'll say be a royal boxes. That Meghan

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Speaker 4: didn't get.

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Speaker 1: Herself Tail Swift, she did not.

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Speaker 2: I think that what happened in the celebrity division of

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Speaker 2: celebrities during the great Estrangement of Harry and Wills is

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Speaker 2: that Megan maybe got Beyonce and Oprah she did, and

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Speaker 2: that Will's got Taylor Swift and right now he's the winner.

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Speaker 2: Who knows in the years time.

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Speaker 1: No, Taylor did not. Meghan did not get Beyonce.

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Speaker 2: She was at the Beyonce.

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Speaker 5: She's a very good scene whose movie premiere? Did Beyonce

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Speaker 5: come to Taylor and walk the red carpet Taylor and

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Speaker 5: then Taylor to Beyonce?

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Speaker 2: No, No, I mean Meghan got got Beyonce, and William

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Speaker 2: and Kate got Taylor. Oh, I don't mean Taylor and

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Speaker 2: Beyonce are beefing. They're amazing, But like in the celebrity division,

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Speaker 2: Beyonce's team Meghan.

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Speaker 5: Anyone who's kind of thinking what's going to be for

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Speaker 5: my career would probably go with the the incumbents, don't.

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Speaker 2: You think, because the Royals are on the nose, like

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Speaker 2: this is what I mean. Like when I was watching

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Speaker 2: William dancing and I was like, this is good for

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Speaker 2: their brand, because really the Royals are a really naff brand. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and colonies privilege.

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Speaker 3: In speaking of the dancing, because I was looking at

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Speaker 3: William and then I was looking at the box right

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Speaker 3: with all the celebrities. And I've watched that video one

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Speaker 3: hundred times because every time you look at it, you

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Speaker 3: spott a new one. You go, that's Amelia Clark, that

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Speaker 3: is a Hemsworth, that is Greta Gowick. And I'm watching

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Speaker 3: it and I realized that there is such a distinct

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Speaker 3: difference between how British people dance and Americans dance. And

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Speaker 3: Travis Kelcey has a very like every time I've seen

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Speaker 3: him dance, he's got his arms up, he's doing a point.

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Speaker 4: He's very frat party, very American. Yeah, very I'm in.

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Speaker 3: A club usually like a beer in the other hand y, yes,

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Speaker 3: And he just loves it. And it's just this confidence

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Speaker 3: is olfa male thing? And then and Ashton Kutsch is

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Speaker 3: doing the same dance right because he's with like one

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Speaker 3: with one arm. He's there with Miller and Tom Cruise

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Speaker 3: looks he was there on his own trading bracelets.

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Speaker 4: But anyway, I love that. I love that Tom Crat.

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Speaker 2: None of his children are talking to him, I know, no,

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Speaker 2: he's cut them off.

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Speaker 5: Sorry, Suri. I think he's fine with the others. But Suri,

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Speaker 5: she was at prom. Where was he trading bracelets with

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Speaker 5: young teenage girls who aren't his daughter?

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Speaker 2: Why?

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Speaker 5: Tom?

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Speaker 1: Why?

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Speaker 4: Look what?

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Speaker 1: I Noticedn't ask him about that.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, I know, but he was quite likable

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Speaker 3: in this ten second video.

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Speaker 4: But greta girl, well.

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Speaker 3: The other the Brits, that Amelie Clark, they're doing this

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Speaker 3: jig where they have their arms down because they're there

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Speaker 3: and they do kind of a shimmy.

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Speaker 1: It's a bit of a shimmy.

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Speaker 3: It's very Hugh gran in love actually walking down the stairs.

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Speaker 2: It's understated, quite committing to a fool.

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Speaker 4: No no, no, because you're embarrassed by yourself.

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Speaker 5: I thought William was really throwing it out.

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Speaker 1: He was making some shapes.

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Speaker 3: If you want to hear more about Taylor Swift's concept,

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Speaker 3: then Mummy's entertainment podcast The Spill has unpacked the wave

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Speaker 3: of celebrities that attended Taylor swift London show. Because now

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Speaker 3: there's not only been one, there's been three and more

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Speaker 3: celebrities are coming every night and I adjust the rotation.

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Speaker 3: I care enormously so about so we will pop a

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Speaker 3: link to their episode in our show notes.

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Speaker 2: This month, Mumma Mia turned seventeen. We know birthdays aren't

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Speaker 2: all that exciting when they're not well. Your birthday, there

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Speaker 2: aren't enough presents, So we want to take this as

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Speaker 2: a chance to give you a treat and say thank

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Speaker 2: you for being on the ride with us.

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Speaker 5: Right now, you can get twenty dollars off a yearly

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Speaker 5: Mumma me a subscription.

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Speaker 1: With the code out Loud Birthday.

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Speaker 2: The offer is valid till the end of June and

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Speaker 2: you will find all the details of how to do

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Speaker 2: that in the show notes. Enjoy, my friends. Look, if

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Speaker 2: you felt your brain shriveling up a little bit during

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Speaker 2: that segment, it's okay. We've got you. You've got you

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Speaker 2: with bringing it back with some smart chat about one

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Speaker 2: of the smartest women Australia has ever produced. So I

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Speaker 2: want to talk about a narrative that I'm seeing around

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Speaker 2: a lot at the moment, the one that says that

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Speaker 2: young men are feeling a bit jipped by feminism and

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Speaker 2: the fear that it's all gone a bit too far.

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Speaker 2: And the latest smart human talking about this is Julia Gillard.

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Speaker 2: I just noticed that when I wrote the note in

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Speaker 2: my script, I called it Julian Gillard, which I don't

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Speaker 2: think she would appreciate the problem.

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Speaker 4: I know you're half watching the William video.

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Speaker 2: Julia is a great ex Prime minister. Let's be clear.

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Speaker 2: She doesn't meddle. She's not in there like going.

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Speaker 1: Out gold charge.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, if I was in charge, blah blah. She's off

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Speaker 2: having a very exciting third act doing good things for

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Speaker 2: women all over the world. And look, she's also feeling

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Speaker 2: a bit sorry for young men at the moment. In

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Speaker 2: this interview that she gave to The Australian recently, they

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Speaker 2: did like a cover story on her. They shot her

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Speaker 2: in London. She's half the year in London, half the

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Speaker 2: year in Australia. She's on the board of directors for

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Speaker 2: this big sort of science y Medical Board there. She's

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Speaker 2: also in charge of an organization called the Global Institute

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Speaker 2: for Women's Leadership, which she founded, and it's based at

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Speaker 2: a university in London and ANU in Canberra. Right, And

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Speaker 2: when she was talking to The Australian, she was saying

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Speaker 2: that that organization did some research lately and what it

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Speaker 2: found was that the young men are pissed off with

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Speaker 2: us and Julia and all of our kind. In this interview,

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Speaker 2: Gilard was talking about gen Z and she was saying,

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Speaker 2: how you know her famous misogyny speech. I think you'll

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Speaker 2: all remember it. Here's a little bit.

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Speaker 6: I will not be lectured about sexism and misogyny.

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Speaker 2: By this man. I will not be.

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Speaker 6: Lectured about and mithsogyny by this man, not now, not ever.

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Speaker 6: The Leader of the Opposition says that people who hold

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Speaker 6: sexist views and who are misogynists are not appropriate for

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Speaker 6: high office. Well, I hope the Leader of the Opposition

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Speaker 6: it's got a piece of paper and he is writing out.

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Speaker 2: His resignation because if he wants to know.

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Speaker 6: What misogyny looks like in modern Australia, he doesn't need

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Speaker 6: a motion in the House of Representatives.

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Speaker 2: He needs a Miro that's what he needs. Has become

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Speaker 2: so iconic to that generation that it's on t shirts

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Speaker 2: and tea towels, and she's in people have often come

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Speaker 2: up and show her their tattoos of it and stuff,

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Speaker 2: and she's like, it's amazing. But she says there's also

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Speaker 2: a portion of that generation who feels that either gender

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Speaker 2: equality has been reached or it's gone so far that

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Speaker 2: it's now discriminating against men. She said, there's certainly a

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Speaker 2: hardening of attitudes amongst young men that it's all gone

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Speaker 2: too far, and for people like myself who've been an

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Speaker 2: active feminist and campaigning in various ways on gender equality

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Speaker 2: for literally a lifetime, we've got to be self critical

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Speaker 2: and analytical about our obvious inability to take young men

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Speaker 2: in particular on this journey with her. What the research

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Speaker 2: found was that it was done across thirty one countries,

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Speaker 2: and it showed that fifty one percent of respondents asked

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Speaker 2: believe that men are being asked to do too much

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Speaker 2: to support gender equality, and that sixty percent of Gen

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Speaker 2: Z men, so that's men aged eighteen to twenty seven,

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Speaker 2: say that they believe women's equality has gone too far,

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Speaker 2: which is a much larger proportion than any other generation.

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Speaker 2: It's clearly landed in a way that is felt as

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Speaker 2: exclusionary or diminishing for particularly young men, she said, and

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Speaker 2: it's essential that men and women have this conversation. How

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Speaker 2: do we reshape the way we are campaigning for gender

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Speaker 2: equality so that we're explaining what I deeply believe to

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Speaker 2: be true, which is that a gender equal world will

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Speaker 2: be better for everyone? Jesse, How do we reshape the

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Speaker 2: way we are campaigning so that we are explaining that

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Speaker 2: a gender equal world will be better for everyone?

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Speaker 3: I think this is really smart, and I agree with

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Speaker 3: everything that she says. I don't think it is actually

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Speaker 3: about feminism going too far, or feminism having failed, or

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Speaker 3: any criticism of female empowerment. I think that would be

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Speaker 3: to misread what she's saying. It's about looking at what's happened.

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Speaker 3: I mean, most of the twentieth century was so focused

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Speaker 3: on reimagining what it is to be a woman and

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Speaker 3: broadening that and remolding it and unpacking it imperfectly but

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Speaker 3: in exciting and revolutionary ways, and we just didn't do

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Speaker 3: the same to what it means to be a man

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Speaker 3: like that still has remained fairly fairly stuck. And I

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Speaker 3: think what she's looking at is the language of feminism,

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Speaker 3: what's existing in the zeitgeist, and whether or not it's working,

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Speaker 3: and the message that.

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Speaker 4: Is intended and how it's landing. Right.

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Speaker 3: So it's basic psychology that if you keep yelling at

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Speaker 3: a three year old that they're naughty, then they will

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Speaker 3: become naughty. That if you corner someone for long enough

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Speaker 3: and tell them how bad they are, then they've only

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Speaker 3: got one way to go and they can sort of

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Speaker 3: lash out. And that sounds like I'm blaming feminism for

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Speaker 3: men's actions, and it's absolutely not what I'm doing.

442
00:21:21,007 --> 00:21:23,527
Speaker 2: In that analogy. Who's doing the yelling and saying that

443
00:21:23,567 --> 00:21:24,087
Speaker 2: they're bad?

444
00:21:24,407 --> 00:21:25,807
Speaker 4: You know what I mean?

445
00:21:27,447 --> 00:21:31,247
Speaker 3: Because I don't think that feminism is necessarily the dominant

446
00:21:31,247 --> 00:21:33,247
Speaker 3: discourse either, Like I think that there's a lot of

447
00:21:33,287 --> 00:21:38,647
Speaker 3: messaging happening, but I think it is a discourse that

448
00:21:38,767 --> 00:21:44,407
Speaker 3: pervades like education young men. What I think is missing

449
00:21:44,487 --> 00:21:48,047
Speaker 3: from that is any vision of what it is to

450
00:21:48,127 --> 00:21:54,367
Speaker 3: be a man or like a good man. If there

451
00:21:54,367 --> 00:21:56,327
Speaker 3: are messages, and I suppose this has a lot to

452
00:21:56,367 --> 00:21:59,247
Speaker 3: do with the news more so than I would say feminism,

453
00:21:59,287 --> 00:22:00,607
Speaker 3: But like the front page of the paper. It's it's

454
00:22:00,607 --> 00:22:03,607
Speaker 3: all like domestic violence, and that's a story that needs

455
00:22:03,607 --> 00:22:05,767
Speaker 3: to be told all the time. We've got domestic violence,

456
00:22:06,007 --> 00:22:10,127
Speaker 3: we've got sexual assault. These things are really important stories.

457
00:22:10,847 --> 00:22:17,087
Speaker 3: But if you tell men that they as a cohort,

458
00:22:17,727 --> 00:22:21,487
Speaker 3: are rapists and that they are.

459
00:22:21,447 --> 00:22:23,487
Speaker 1: Violent or rapists in waiting.

460
00:22:23,447 --> 00:22:25,967
Speaker 3: In waiting exactly, and that they are violent, and if

461
00:22:26,007 --> 00:22:29,767
Speaker 3: we provide no alternative image of what it is to

462
00:22:29,807 --> 00:22:32,767
Speaker 3: be a man, then of course Andrew Tate is going

463
00:22:32,807 --> 00:22:35,807
Speaker 3: to look appealing because he's the first man who has

464
00:22:35,807 --> 00:22:38,967
Speaker 3: a difference, who was potentially said to them, here's what

465
00:22:39,047 --> 00:22:43,927
Speaker 3: it is to be strong, to be alpha, to be not.

466
00:22:43,887 --> 00:22:45,687
Speaker 1: A shame but a man.

467
00:22:45,687 --> 00:22:50,967
Speaker 2: But his version of masculinity is in opposition to femininity, right,

468
00:22:51,047 --> 00:22:51,967
Speaker 2: and so are a lot of.

469
00:22:51,927 --> 00:22:53,967
Speaker 1: These guys who are in feminism.

470
00:22:54,207 --> 00:22:58,087
Speaker 2: Well well, women full stop yea. And she she says

471
00:22:58,127 --> 00:23:00,447
Speaker 2: this in the thing She's I mean, Julia Gillard says

472
00:23:00,447 --> 00:23:02,287
Speaker 2: this in the interview. She says that, you know, the

473
00:23:02,327 --> 00:23:06,167
Speaker 2: Andrew Tates have stepped into the space. They set up

474
00:23:06,207 --> 00:23:10,527
Speaker 2: everything about masculinity as basically or position to women, so

475
00:23:10,527 --> 00:23:14,087
Speaker 2: that a powerful man subjugates women, they are in charge

476
00:23:14,127 --> 00:23:14,447
Speaker 2: of them.

477
00:23:14,527 --> 00:23:16,047
Speaker 1: So that it's like a zero sum game.

478
00:23:16,207 --> 00:23:21,247
Speaker 5: So any power or equality that women get comes at

479
00:23:21,247 --> 00:23:22,567
Speaker 5: the expense of men.

480
00:23:22,967 --> 00:23:28,327
Speaker 2: Yes, and they're weaponizing that message it's not true. My

481
00:23:28,487 --> 00:23:31,727
Speaker 2: question about this is right, is that you're in the

482
00:23:31,767 --> 00:23:34,927
Speaker 2: analogy where it's like feminism has gone too far. We're

483
00:23:35,007 --> 00:23:37,567
Speaker 2: yelling at men, telling them about all the time. So

484
00:23:37,647 --> 00:23:41,007
Speaker 2: what do we think they're going to do? Is how

485
00:23:41,047 --> 00:23:44,887
Speaker 2: do you solve issues without airing what the issues are? Right? So,

486
00:23:45,007 --> 00:23:48,407
Speaker 2: when women who now have more microphones both literally and

487
00:23:48,407 --> 00:23:50,727
Speaker 2: figuratively than they've ever had before and are so are

488
00:23:50,767 --> 00:23:54,207
Speaker 2: speaking in open ways for the first time they ever

489
00:23:54,247 --> 00:23:57,287
Speaker 2: have before about all the issues both little and really big,

490
00:23:57,967 --> 00:24:00,927
Speaker 2: that affect their lives, that have to do with the

491
00:24:01,007 --> 00:24:03,607
Speaker 2: fact that as women, they often aren't afforded the same

492
00:24:03,647 --> 00:24:07,327
Speaker 2: amount of safety, opportunity, whatever it is we like, as

493
00:24:07,327 --> 00:24:10,767
Speaker 2: I say, from micro to macro issues, how do we

494
00:24:11,287 --> 00:24:14,687
Speaker 2: allow women to say all that if we have to

495
00:24:14,807 --> 00:24:17,247
Speaker 2: keep telling them to not upset the men?

496
00:24:17,887 --> 00:24:20,167
Speaker 4: I don't think it's I don't think it's about that.

497
00:24:20,247 --> 00:24:24,207
Speaker 3: I think it's just about balancing it with some sort

498
00:24:24,247 --> 00:24:25,647
Speaker 3: of with role models.

499
00:24:25,647 --> 00:24:26,567
Speaker 2: And whose job is that?

500
00:24:26,927 --> 00:24:29,127
Speaker 5: But hang on, you've got to bring people along with you.

501
00:24:29,407 --> 00:24:34,207
Speaker 5: When you want to make cultural or social change in

502
00:24:34,247 --> 00:24:39,007
Speaker 5: a democracy and in a culture, you have to instead

503
00:24:39,047 --> 00:24:42,247
Speaker 5: of just imposing it upon people against their will without

504
00:24:42,247 --> 00:24:45,887
Speaker 5: them understanding the benefits, you have to bring them along.

505
00:24:45,967 --> 00:24:47,567
Speaker 5: Any social movement.

506
00:24:47,727 --> 00:24:51,567
Speaker 2: Does that, which is what she's suggesting we've failed at right, Yeah.

507
00:24:51,207 --> 00:24:53,127
Speaker 1: And I think that I under well.

508
00:24:53,487 --> 00:24:57,367
Speaker 5: She says that we've been so focused on getting our

509
00:24:57,447 --> 00:25:00,967
Speaker 5: voices out there and rebalancing some of the things that

510
00:25:01,007 --> 00:25:05,007
Speaker 5: have been really terrible for women that it's not and

511
00:25:05,047 --> 00:25:07,207
Speaker 5: it's not even that the pendulums come to fights that

512
00:25:07,247 --> 00:25:11,207
Speaker 5: we haven't explained the better it's of gender equality to men.

513
00:25:11,807 --> 00:25:14,927
Speaker 5: Because this is a generation Generation Z and the generation

514
00:25:15,047 --> 00:25:18,687
Speaker 5: behind them have grown up marinating in the Me Too

515
00:25:18,767 --> 00:25:24,327
Speaker 5: movement conversations about violence against women, words like misogyny. A

516
00:25:24,407 --> 00:25:29,087
Speaker 5: generation ago, the word misogyny wasn't understood or thrown around

517
00:25:29,887 --> 00:25:33,167
Speaker 5: the idea of believe women, the idea of even women

518
00:25:33,247 --> 00:25:37,327
Speaker 5: having a voice. So it's been a time of massive

519
00:25:37,367 --> 00:25:41,167
Speaker 5: social change, and for us, it's great that people are

520
00:25:41,207 --> 00:25:44,607
Speaker 5: now talking about these things. And sometimes when everyone gets

521
00:25:44,687 --> 00:25:47,447
Speaker 5: very down on oh it's terrible and things have never

522
00:25:47,487 --> 00:25:49,407
Speaker 5: been worse for women, that's not true. Things have never

523
00:25:49,447 --> 00:25:52,647
Speaker 5: been better for women, but we've got a long way

524
00:25:52,687 --> 00:25:54,567
Speaker 5: to go and we're not finished.

525
00:25:55,287 --> 00:25:57,727
Speaker 1: But I think that while we can.

526
00:25:57,607 --> 00:26:02,407
Speaker 5: See the benefits of feminism and equality, what's in it

527
00:26:02,447 --> 00:26:02,807
Speaker 5: for men?

528
00:26:02,927 --> 00:26:03,127
Speaker 3: Now?

529
00:26:03,207 --> 00:26:06,287
Speaker 5: What Glorious dynam has always said is that gender roles

530
00:26:06,287 --> 00:26:08,607
Speaker 5: are prisons for men as well. Yes, they have will

531
00:26:08,647 --> 00:26:10,567
Speaker 5: to walk up and someone brings you coffee, but there's

532
00:26:10,607 --> 00:26:13,287
Speaker 5: still prisons. And and our Crab's written about this a

533
00:26:13,287 --> 00:26:16,887
Speaker 5: lot in The Wife Drought, where a woman's life can

534
00:26:16,927 --> 00:26:20,527
Speaker 5: look very very different now to generations go, but a

535
00:26:20,567 --> 00:26:23,527
Speaker 5: man's life and the expectations of what a man is

536
00:26:23,767 --> 00:26:26,247
Speaker 5: is still pretty much the same as their grandfathers or

537
00:26:26,247 --> 00:26:29,087
Speaker 5: their great grandfathers in terms of you should be a breadwinner,

538
00:26:29,407 --> 00:26:31,607
Speaker 5: you shouldn't be looking after the kids, you should go

539
00:26:31,647 --> 00:26:35,047
Speaker 5: out to work, all of those things. So while our

540
00:26:35,087 --> 00:26:38,167
Speaker 5: worlds have opened up, and some would say we now

541
00:26:38,247 --> 00:26:41,727
Speaker 5: have the burden of having to have their career and

542
00:26:41,807 --> 00:26:43,687
Speaker 5: do everything at home and raise the children like we

543
00:26:43,727 --> 00:26:44,287
Speaker 5: always have.

544
00:26:45,087 --> 00:26:46,447
Speaker 1: Men's kind of haven't.

545
00:26:47,047 --> 00:26:49,487
Speaker 5: And our lives aren't going to get better until their

546
00:26:49,527 --> 00:26:50,367
Speaker 5: lives get better too.

547
00:26:50,487 --> 00:26:53,327
Speaker 2: But surely they're saying that there's have like surely the

548
00:26:53,407 --> 00:26:56,967
Speaker 2: issue with this narrative that I hear everywhere at the minute,

549
00:26:57,007 --> 00:26:59,287
Speaker 2: and some of it's backed up by some very compelling

550
00:26:59,327 --> 00:27:02,927
Speaker 2: statistics about young men feeling lost. Yeah, they think their

551
00:27:02,967 --> 00:27:06,127
Speaker 2: lives have changed. They think that we've taken stuff from them.

552
00:27:06,127 --> 00:27:09,007
Speaker 2: When I say we, I mean women broadly. They're not

553
00:27:09,047 --> 00:27:10,967
Speaker 2: so saying, oh, I still get to do all the

554
00:27:11,007 --> 00:27:12,847
Speaker 2: things that my dad got to do, and that In fact,

555
00:27:12,887 --> 00:27:15,447
Speaker 2: they're saying the opposite. They're saying, I don't know what

556
00:27:15,447 --> 00:27:17,407
Speaker 2: my role is now because I thought I was meant

557
00:27:17,407 --> 00:27:20,447
Speaker 2: to be the breadwinner, the protector, the keeper, the worker,

558
00:27:20,927 --> 00:27:23,647
Speaker 2: and yet apparently that's not needed anymore. Right, this is

559
00:27:23,687 --> 00:27:27,167
Speaker 2: the narrative that's out there, So I don't know if

560
00:27:27,207 --> 00:27:28,647
Speaker 2: that's true, because they.

561
00:27:28,567 --> 00:27:31,407
Speaker 5: Don't have the role models for how that can look

562
00:27:31,447 --> 00:27:33,927
Speaker 5: in a positive way. Right, So it's like, you might

563
00:27:33,967 --> 00:27:35,967
Speaker 5: not have to be the breadwinner and whatever, but what

564
00:27:36,087 --> 00:27:38,567
Speaker 5: else can you be? It doesn't help when you've got

565
00:27:39,127 --> 00:27:41,727
Speaker 5: so called feminists. And I don't hate even calling them that,

566
00:27:41,767 --> 00:27:43,447
Speaker 5: because I just think they do such a disservice to

567
00:27:43,807 --> 00:27:47,247
Speaker 5: what feminism is. Who are out there talking about hating

568
00:27:47,287 --> 00:27:52,127
Speaker 5: men and men being rapists and male tears and being

569
00:27:52,167 --> 00:27:55,767
Speaker 5: disparaging about men and laughing about the idea of not

570
00:27:55,807 --> 00:27:58,047
Speaker 5: all men and insisting that it actually is all men

571
00:27:58,087 --> 00:28:01,447
Speaker 5: that are the problem. That doesn't help either because it's

572
00:28:01,647 --> 00:28:05,967
Speaker 5: very polarizing and very ostracizing, but it's also it's not see.

573
00:28:06,007 --> 00:28:08,487
Speaker 2: One of the reason why I get defensive in this argument,

574
00:28:08,487 --> 00:28:11,567
Speaker 2: which is like feminism has gone too far. Women have

575
00:28:11,567 --> 00:28:13,407
Speaker 2: asked for too much. Now the men are lost. Is

576
00:28:13,447 --> 00:28:16,007
Speaker 2: I'm like, Okay, then the men can step in and

577
00:28:16,047 --> 00:28:18,847
Speaker 2: sort this out, right, because I feel like otherwise this

578
00:28:18,927 --> 00:28:21,247
Speaker 2: narrative is it just keeps landing back on us, right,

579
00:28:21,727 --> 00:28:25,087
Speaker 2: and which bits of equality and the advances that we've

580
00:28:25,167 --> 00:28:28,367
Speaker 2: made over the past fifty years are we giving back

581
00:28:28,407 --> 00:28:29,887
Speaker 2: to make the men feel better? Right?

582
00:28:30,447 --> 00:28:31,287
Speaker 1: I don't thinking of that.

583
00:28:31,407 --> 00:28:33,727
Speaker 5: But then that's you you agreeing that it's a zero

584
00:28:33,887 --> 00:28:35,087
Speaker 5: some game. I'm just saying that.

585
00:28:35,207 --> 00:28:36,887
Speaker 2: No, no, I'm not agreeing it's a zero some game.

586
00:28:36,887 --> 00:28:40,247
Speaker 2: But I've said that's how it's being presented in this discussion.

587
00:28:40,767 --> 00:28:43,567
Speaker 2: And so we're saying we need more good role models

588
00:28:43,567 --> 00:28:46,007
Speaker 2: for men, which we one hundred percent do. So men off,

589
00:28:46,047 --> 00:28:48,687
Speaker 2: you go sort that shit out. That's that's my position

590
00:28:48,727 --> 00:28:51,127
Speaker 2: on this. Is there and there are lots There's an

591
00:28:51,167 --> 00:28:53,367
Speaker 2: amazing organization that's here and in other parts of the

592
00:28:53,367 --> 00:28:55,567
Speaker 2: all called man Cave. It's run by this amazing young

593
00:28:55,607 --> 00:28:58,207
Speaker 2: man called Hunter Johnson. I've heard him on in this

594
00:28:58,247 --> 00:29:01,167
Speaker 2: whole period of discussion about male violence. I've heard him

595
00:29:01,167 --> 00:29:02,607
Speaker 2: on the radio, and se him on TV, and see

596
00:29:02,687 --> 00:29:06,247
Speaker 2: him on social media everywhere. Brilliant role models doing incredible things.

597
00:29:06,527 --> 00:29:09,127
Speaker 2: Let's hear them and lift them up instead of, you know,

598
00:29:09,647 --> 00:29:11,727
Speaker 2: leaving the vacuum for the andrew Tates. But what I

599
00:29:11,767 --> 00:29:15,607
Speaker 2: won't cop is that this is somehow feminism's problem. I

600
00:29:15,647 --> 00:29:18,367
Speaker 2: won't cop that because I think that any group of

601
00:29:18,407 --> 00:29:21,687
Speaker 2: people who have to share power get defensive and upset

602
00:29:21,687 --> 00:29:22,007
Speaker 2: about it.

603
00:29:22,247 --> 00:29:24,607
Speaker 5: Don't you think any social movement needs to win hearts

604
00:29:24,607 --> 00:29:26,487
Speaker 5: and minds though well to succeed.

605
00:29:26,607 --> 00:29:28,927
Speaker 2: I think that they have. I mean you're saying, I

606
00:29:28,967 --> 00:29:31,087
Speaker 2: don't think that men's roles have changed. There are lots

607
00:29:31,127 --> 00:29:33,207
Speaker 2: of men who now have the opportunity to live really

608
00:29:33,247 --> 00:29:35,247
Speaker 2: different lives and if that works for them, it does.

609
00:29:35,287 --> 00:29:38,087
Speaker 2: But if they're still struggling with this idea of well,

610
00:29:38,127 --> 00:29:41,167
Speaker 2: what does masculinity mean? If it's not all about me?

611
00:29:41,687 --> 00:29:43,527
Speaker 2: And what we've been talking about a lot lately, is

612
00:29:43,567 --> 00:29:46,487
Speaker 2: this kind of quiet resurgence of women who are saying, well, actually,

613
00:29:46,847 --> 00:29:49,207
Speaker 2: I don't want to do it all, you know, I think,

614
00:29:49,287 --> 00:29:50,807
Speaker 2: isn't the whole point of it is that now we

615
00:29:50,887 --> 00:29:51,727
Speaker 2: have more options?

616
00:29:51,807 --> 00:29:55,607
Speaker 5: Jesse, do you think that, in quite rightly pushing back

617
00:29:55,647 --> 00:30:01,047
Speaker 5: against what we call toxic masculinity, which is like sexism

618
00:30:01,367 --> 00:30:06,887
Speaker 5: and you know, being disrespectful to women, that we've actually

619
00:30:07,727 --> 00:30:11,567
Speaker 5: pushed back against all masculine Yeah, and demonized some just

620
00:30:11,727 --> 00:30:15,247
Speaker 5: male behaviors and not necessarily toxic any sense.

621
00:30:15,967 --> 00:30:18,807
Speaker 3: And I know this with friends who you know, are

622
00:30:18,927 --> 00:30:25,287
Speaker 3: raising adolescent boys or work with adolescent boys. Any discussion

623
00:30:25,447 --> 00:30:27,767
Speaker 3: around what it means to be a man is very fraught.

624
00:30:28,167 --> 00:30:29,527
Speaker 4: It sounds toxic.

625
00:30:29,967 --> 00:30:31,567
Speaker 3: You know, if you picked up a book that was

626
00:30:31,647 --> 00:30:36,527
Speaker 3: like masculinity different types, or like, you know, how to

627
00:30:36,567 --> 00:30:38,767
Speaker 3: be a man, you'd be like, oh my god, this

628
00:30:38,967 --> 00:30:41,327
Speaker 3: is not good. So it's like we've dropped the toxic

629
00:30:41,887 --> 00:30:46,567
Speaker 3: and masculinity is seen as inherently bad. And if you're

630
00:30:47,007 --> 00:30:51,007
Speaker 3: told that part of you that is intrinsic to your

631
00:30:51,047 --> 00:30:56,047
Speaker 3: sense of identity is bad, then I know what you're saying, Holly,

632
00:30:56,087 --> 00:30:59,927
Speaker 3: but I also think we've got to look objectively at

633
00:30:59,927 --> 00:31:03,087
Speaker 3: what's happening, at the Andrew tape phenomenon, at the fact

634
00:31:03,127 --> 00:31:07,007
Speaker 3: that men do feel ostracized from this conversation, and try

635
00:31:07,047 --> 00:31:09,647
Speaker 3: and work out how to make this work. The civil

636
00:31:09,727 --> 00:31:13,047
Speaker 3: rights movement, which is just such an incredible example of

637
00:31:13,127 --> 00:31:16,607
Speaker 3: and not that that's finished or you know, achieved everything

638
00:31:16,767 --> 00:31:19,687
Speaker 3: it set out to, but there was incredible strides taken

639
00:31:19,727 --> 00:31:25,207
Speaker 3: and that was because of a mutual discourse of respect.

640
00:31:25,687 --> 00:31:30,167
Speaker 3: There wasn't this idea of like you are inherently bad

641
00:31:30,287 --> 00:31:32,927
Speaker 3: because of how you were born, and that's how achievement

642
00:31:33,127 --> 00:31:37,727
Speaker 3: was developed. So yeah, I think that's that's got to

643
00:31:37,767 --> 00:31:40,447
Speaker 3: be the beginning. Is what is it to be a man?

644
00:31:41,127 --> 00:31:42,487
Speaker 3: What are those images?

645
00:31:42,567 --> 00:31:44,887
Speaker 2: No one answer to that, Like one of the things

646
00:31:44,927 --> 00:31:46,967
Speaker 2: I think all the time, you know, as a mother

647
00:31:47,047 --> 00:31:49,567
Speaker 2: of a sod like my little boy doesn't tick a

648
00:31:49,607 --> 00:31:52,767
Speaker 2: lot of boxes of what's traditionally what being a man is.

649
00:31:52,847 --> 00:31:54,967
Speaker 2: You know, he doesn't love playing football, he's not a

650
00:31:55,007 --> 00:31:59,247
Speaker 2: rough and tumbled dude, he doesn't take charge. Like I think,

651
00:31:59,287 --> 00:32:02,887
Speaker 2: there's no one answer. Surely, if the progress that is

652
00:32:02,927 --> 00:32:06,327
Speaker 2: being made here isn't isn't unpicking all of those things,

653
00:32:06,367 --> 00:32:08,447
Speaker 2: you know, like the whole idea that there's just one

654
00:32:08,527 --> 00:32:11,047
Speaker 2: lane for everybody. I feel like.

655
00:32:11,127 --> 00:32:13,527
Speaker 3: That's lane matter how many times have we said on

656
00:32:13,567 --> 00:32:15,687
Speaker 3: this show, you can't be what you can't say. You know,

657
00:32:15,727 --> 00:32:19,087
Speaker 3: you think about a girl who goes to her teenage

658
00:32:19,087 --> 00:32:23,487
Speaker 3: bedroom and all the images of famous inspiring women up

659
00:32:23,487 --> 00:32:26,647
Speaker 3: on her walls, and all the different paths. I just

660
00:32:26,767 --> 00:32:29,967
Speaker 3: hope that there are as many varied and inspiring paths

661
00:32:30,207 --> 00:32:30,927
Speaker 3: for little boys.

662
00:32:31,247 --> 00:32:33,207
Speaker 5: Do you know what's really challenging as a parent of

663
00:32:33,247 --> 00:32:37,247
Speaker 5: a son and a daughter is all the messages that

664
00:32:37,287 --> 00:32:40,567
Speaker 5: we're giving our daughter to pump up their tires are

665
00:32:40,607 --> 00:32:43,687
Speaker 5: also being heard by our sons. And remember we had

666
00:32:43,687 --> 00:32:46,847
Speaker 5: this conversation quite a few years ago home where your

667
00:32:46,887 --> 00:32:48,647
Speaker 5: son said to you, when I grow up, I want

668
00:32:48,647 --> 00:32:50,447
Speaker 5: to be a girl. And you were like, oh, billy,

669
00:32:50,567 --> 00:32:52,967
Speaker 5: that's interesting. Why And he said to you because girls

670
00:32:52,967 --> 00:32:55,927
Speaker 5: can do anything. And that's when you realized, oh shit.

671
00:32:56,527 --> 00:33:01,047
Speaker 5: I've been working as of course, to correcting, you know,

672
00:33:01,127 --> 00:33:03,487
Speaker 5: bringing up our daughters to be strong, powerful women and

673
00:33:03,647 --> 00:33:06,327
Speaker 5: not take shit from men. But then our sons have

674
00:33:06,407 --> 00:33:10,207
Speaker 5: been listening, and is the implication that they're shit?

675
00:33:10,367 --> 00:33:13,167
Speaker 2: Yeah? But since then it didn't take long to correct

676
00:33:13,167 --> 00:33:15,287
Speaker 2: that view. For Billy, because he does still live in

677
00:33:15,287 --> 00:33:19,527
Speaker 2: a world where boys are very much treasured, right, and

678
00:33:19,567 --> 00:33:22,327
Speaker 2: he has has his own issues with dealing with the

679
00:33:22,327 --> 00:33:24,967
Speaker 2: alpha males in his school or wherever, And he's always

680
00:33:25,007 --> 00:33:26,967
Speaker 2: saying to me how surprised he is about the way

681
00:33:26,967 --> 00:33:28,967
Speaker 2: that a lot of boys talk about girls right in

682
00:33:29,007 --> 00:33:32,287
Speaker 2: a very disparaging way. I get all of the things

683
00:33:32,327 --> 00:33:34,727
Speaker 2: we're talking about, but I also think it's a big

684
00:33:34,767 --> 00:33:37,807
Speaker 2: and complicated picture that the andrew Tates and everything of

685
00:33:37,847 --> 00:33:39,567
Speaker 2: the world who are now being held up as like, well,

686
00:33:39,567 --> 00:33:43,207
Speaker 2: there's either this, or there's you know, there are footy players,

687
00:33:43,367 --> 00:33:46,367
Speaker 2: or there are men in finance or whatever it is,

688
00:33:46,407 --> 00:33:49,487
Speaker 2: these views of masculinity, and we've got to remember that

689
00:33:49,567 --> 00:33:52,567
Speaker 2: the extreme ends of that, just like everything in our culture,

690
00:33:52,567 --> 00:33:54,687
Speaker 2: are being promoted and elevated to us all the time

691
00:33:54,727 --> 00:33:57,167
Speaker 2: by the content we're consuming, the algorithms we swim, we

692
00:33:57,247 --> 00:34:01,487
Speaker 2: swim in all that stuff. In little boys actual lives,

693
00:34:02,087 --> 00:34:06,007
Speaker 2: they're still struggling with toxic masculinity in inverted commerce, and

694
00:34:06,047 --> 00:34:08,647
Speaker 2: they still need to hear all the time the messaging

695
00:34:08,687 --> 00:34:11,287
Speaker 2: about women respect. I don't think that job is done.

696
00:34:11,407 --> 00:34:13,927
Speaker 2: I don't think we can dust off our hands. I

697
00:34:13,967 --> 00:34:15,847
Speaker 2: think any young woman out in the world, like the

698
00:34:16,007 --> 00:34:18,567
Speaker 2: dilemma that we spoke about about sexy dress dilemma on

699
00:34:18,607 --> 00:34:21,127
Speaker 2: the subs episode the other week, any young woman out

700
00:34:21,127 --> 00:34:23,687
Speaker 2: in the world will tell you that it's not like, yeah,

701
00:34:23,927 --> 00:34:26,687
Speaker 2: those all those issues have gone away, And I just

702
00:34:26,727 --> 00:34:29,847
Speaker 2: feel like we're kind of running a risk of telling

703
00:34:29,887 --> 00:34:32,847
Speaker 2: women to stop complaining because it's making the men feel bad.

704
00:34:35,367 --> 00:34:37,167
Speaker 4: One Unlimited out Loud Access.

705
00:34:37,447 --> 00:34:41,607
Speaker 3: We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mum

706
00:34:41,607 --> 00:34:44,607
Speaker 3: and MEA subscribers. Follow the link in the show notes

707
00:34:44,607 --> 00:34:47,087
Speaker 3: to get us in your ears five days a week.

708
00:34:47,247 --> 00:34:50,687
Speaker 3: And a huge thank you to all our current subscribers.

709
00:34:51,967 --> 00:34:55,327
Speaker 3: Have you noticed more life coaches popping up.

710
00:34:55,287 --> 00:34:56,447
Speaker 4: In your Instagram feede lately?

711
00:34:56,647 --> 00:34:57,087
Speaker 3: So just me?

712
00:34:57,567 --> 00:34:58,207
Speaker 4: You guys got them?

713
00:34:58,327 --> 00:35:01,087
Speaker 1: Yep, yeah, and they all sound the same. I actually

714
00:35:01,087 --> 00:35:02,047
Speaker 1: haven't noticed it lately.

715
00:35:02,047 --> 00:35:03,567
Speaker 5: I noticed it a couple of years ago, and some

716
00:35:03,647 --> 00:35:08,367
Speaker 5: people I knew who really shouldn't be were touting their

717
00:35:08,407 --> 00:35:09,767
Speaker 5: services as life coaches.

718
00:35:10,047 --> 00:35:12,927
Speaker 3: Yes, so when you say they all look the same,

719
00:35:13,167 --> 00:35:16,327
Speaker 3: there are lots of emojis in the captions. They want

720
00:35:16,327 --> 00:35:18,927
Speaker 3: to empower you to manifest your best life by leaving

721
00:35:18,967 --> 00:35:22,447
Speaker 3: fear behind, and often they use words like neuroscience and

722
00:35:22,487 --> 00:35:26,807
Speaker 3: psychology and then encourage you to comment webinar below, and

723
00:35:26,847 --> 00:35:28,287
Speaker 3: then they'll send you something they all.

724
00:35:28,287 --> 00:35:31,407
Speaker 1: Read that's called a lead magnet. That's to get your

725
00:35:31,447 --> 00:35:32,167
Speaker 1: email address.

726
00:35:32,647 --> 00:35:35,327
Speaker 4: Okay, because they do that, and they market lots of

727
00:35:35,367 --> 00:35:37,327
Speaker 4: capital letters and then lots of stuff.

728
00:35:37,367 --> 00:35:39,847
Speaker 5: They all kind of feel the same. And there's a

729
00:35:39,887 --> 00:35:40,967
Speaker 5: reason for that, isn't there.

730
00:35:41,167 --> 00:35:41,407
Speaker 4: Well.

731
00:35:41,447 --> 00:35:44,767
Speaker 3: An article published in the Sydney Morning Herald over the weekend,

732
00:35:44,807 --> 00:35:47,887
Speaker 3: and it was republished from the New York Times, references

733
00:35:47,967 --> 00:35:51,767
Speaker 3: a growing cohort of people speaking out about the ugly

734
00:35:51,887 --> 00:35:54,807
Speaker 3: underbelly of life coaching. And basically the reason why all

735
00:35:54,807 --> 00:35:56,687
Speaker 3: of these things are the same is because they're all.

736
00:35:56,567 --> 00:35:57,727
Speaker 4: Being taught by the same people.

737
00:35:58,287 --> 00:36:02,127
Speaker 3: So it's an unregulated industry that means anyone can call

738
00:36:02,167 --> 00:36:04,447
Speaker 3: themselves a life coach that grew out of the late

739
00:36:04,447 --> 00:36:09,247
Speaker 3: twentieth century, pulled towards self improvement when talk therapy was popular.

740
00:36:11,047 --> 00:36:14,447
Speaker 3: It's really hard to get stats about this because of

741
00:36:14,567 --> 00:36:17,887
Speaker 3: how unregulated it is, but there are suggestions that between

742
00:36:17,887 --> 00:36:20,487
Speaker 3: twenty nineteen and twenty twenty two, the number of life

743
00:36:20,567 --> 00:36:25,367
Speaker 3: coaches increased by fifty four percent, So it's skyrocketing, and

744
00:36:25,447 --> 00:36:29,687
Speaker 3: the question is is the uptick harmful? And if it is,

745
00:36:29,727 --> 00:36:31,247
Speaker 3: then who are the victims?

746
00:36:31,767 --> 00:36:34,607
Speaker 5: What's interesting is that this person that I know who

747
00:36:35,207 --> 00:36:37,967
Speaker 5: left a job went and became a life coach. I

748
00:36:38,007 --> 00:36:40,527
Speaker 5: got a bit obsessed with, like what is going on?

749
00:36:40,567 --> 00:36:42,567
Speaker 5: And then there was this one person who kept commenting,

750
00:36:42,847 --> 00:36:46,087
Speaker 5: so I went and looked up her name and she

751
00:36:46,247 --> 00:36:48,847
Speaker 5: was a life coach for life coaches, So she taught

752
00:36:48,887 --> 00:36:52,807
Speaker 5: people how to become life coaches. And then soon enough

753
00:36:53,327 --> 00:36:57,047
Speaker 5: this other woman who I knew, she was then trying

754
00:36:57,087 --> 00:37:00,887
Speaker 5: to attract people to teach them how to be life coaches,

755
00:37:01,247 --> 00:37:03,767
Speaker 5: when she didn't seem to be coaching anyone herself.

756
00:37:04,087 --> 00:37:09,207
Speaker 1: So it's very pyramids game, very MLM, very very marketing.

757
00:37:09,327 --> 00:37:12,287
Speaker 2: Can I ask a really basic question, what's a life coach?

758
00:37:12,607 --> 00:37:15,487
Speaker 2: As in, like how are they different from like a

759
00:37:15,487 --> 00:37:18,527
Speaker 2: therapist or a mentor, or like as someone at work?

760
00:37:19,007 --> 00:37:22,127
Speaker 3: What's a life Okay, So in Australia actually something like

761
00:37:22,167 --> 00:37:25,847
Speaker 3: a counselor. Anyone can legally call themselves a counselor. But

762
00:37:26,047 --> 00:37:28,447
Speaker 3: if you're going to see a counselor, then chances are

763
00:37:28,927 --> 00:37:32,007
Speaker 3: they've studied for minimum three years A psychologist we're talking

764
00:37:32,047 --> 00:37:34,047
Speaker 3: minimum six years. You need to have some sort of

765
00:37:34,167 --> 00:37:37,327
Speaker 3: tertiary education. There are bodies where you can go and

766
00:37:37,327 --> 00:37:39,607
Speaker 3: look up your psychologists or a therapist or whatever and

767
00:37:39,647 --> 00:37:43,727
Speaker 3: see if they, you know, actually fit the criteria. A

768
00:37:43,807 --> 00:37:47,007
Speaker 3: life coach can do a week long course, a life

769
00:37:47,007 --> 00:37:48,767
Speaker 3: coach can do no study.

770
00:37:48,687 --> 00:37:51,167
Speaker 2: But I would go to one because.

771
00:37:50,807 --> 00:37:53,687
Speaker 3: You have a problem that you're trying to solve, You

772
00:37:53,727 --> 00:37:57,887
Speaker 3: want help with your career, you want things to get better,

773
00:37:58,127 --> 00:37:59,287
Speaker 3: like very broad.

774
00:37:59,047 --> 00:38:01,567
Speaker 5: Therapy light and so one of the reasons that people

775
00:38:01,607 --> 00:38:03,527
Speaker 5: do see life coaches often is because it can be

776
00:38:03,607 --> 00:38:06,127
Speaker 5: very hard and very expensive to get in to see

777
00:38:06,127 --> 00:38:09,807
Speaker 5: a therapist. Life coaches do tend to be cheaper because

778
00:38:09,807 --> 00:38:16,167
Speaker 5: they're unregulated and unqualified, and that brings risks.

779
00:38:15,807 --> 00:38:17,167
Speaker 1: Of course, because you don't know.

780
00:38:17,967 --> 00:38:21,367
Speaker 5: You could be going with some very complex issue and

781
00:38:21,407 --> 00:38:24,807
Speaker 5: a mental health issue or an issue around abuse or

782
00:38:24,807 --> 00:38:28,767
Speaker 5: who knows, and they might have done an hour long

783
00:38:28,927 --> 00:38:29,887
Speaker 5: online course.

784
00:38:30,487 --> 00:38:35,047
Speaker 3: And the people who seek out life coaches of generally

785
00:38:35,127 --> 00:38:38,327
Speaker 3: vulnerable people right like, they probably have a significant, absolutely

786
00:38:38,447 --> 00:38:40,127
Speaker 3: problem that they're trying to sort out in their lives.

787
00:38:40,727 --> 00:38:43,647
Speaker 3: And look, that's one thing. But an expert in this

788
00:38:43,807 --> 00:38:46,967
Speaker 3: article was saying that This other element is that there's

789
00:38:46,967 --> 00:38:48,967
Speaker 3: a problem in the industry, as you say, Mayor, of

790
00:38:49,007 --> 00:38:53,127
Speaker 3: coaches who coach coaches to become coaches. Yes, and you

791
00:38:53,207 --> 00:38:55,687
Speaker 3: see a lot of people who then are promised, in

792
00:38:55,727 --> 00:38:58,807
Speaker 3: your first year, you'll make one hundred thousand dollars, and

793
00:38:58,847 --> 00:39:01,767
Speaker 3: then they do this thing, They've forked out tens of

794
00:39:01,807 --> 00:39:05,087
Speaker 3: thousands of dollars in order to get this qualification that

795
00:39:05,127 --> 00:39:09,287
Speaker 3: isn't real, and then they have no clients because of

796
00:39:09,287 --> 00:39:11,367
Speaker 3: course they don't. And then they're told, well, you need

797
00:39:11,367 --> 00:39:13,207
Speaker 3: to do more courses, so they do more and more,

798
00:39:13,327 --> 00:39:15,607
Speaker 3: and then it's the sunt cost fallacy, which is, well,

799
00:39:15,647 --> 00:39:18,527
Speaker 3: I've invested seventy thousand dollars, I can't give up now,

800
00:39:18,927 --> 00:39:21,567
Speaker 3: and before you know it, you're in debt and you're

801
00:39:21,607 --> 00:39:24,047
Speaker 3: trying to sell to your same two hundred Instagram followers.

802
00:39:24,127 --> 00:39:24,287
Speaker 1: Right.

803
00:39:25,207 --> 00:39:26,767
Speaker 4: And I've personally seen.

804
00:39:26,607 --> 00:39:30,447
Speaker 3: Heaps of this, especially since COVID and my instinct, I've

805
00:39:30,487 --> 00:39:33,087
Speaker 3: been trying to do this topic for ages because I

806
00:39:33,207 --> 00:39:38,127
Speaker 3: find it intensely irritating. I like expertise, I know what

807
00:39:38,167 --> 00:39:40,247
Speaker 3: it takes to be a psychologist, and I think.

808
00:39:41,047 --> 00:39:42,767
Speaker 4: Honestly, I'm like, how dare you?

809
00:39:43,247 --> 00:39:47,167
Speaker 3: What makes you think that you can help anyone with

810
00:39:47,207 --> 00:39:47,807
Speaker 3: their problems.

811
00:39:48,567 --> 00:39:50,767
Speaker 4: But reading this, it changed my perspective a bit.

812
00:39:50,647 --> 00:39:56,527
Speaker 3: Because I thought, these are vulnerable people who often have

813
00:39:56,727 --> 00:39:57,327
Speaker 3: a family.

814
00:39:57,567 --> 00:40:00,167
Speaker 5: Do you mean the people who are becoming life creag Yeah, yeah,

815
00:40:00,287 --> 00:40:04,247
Speaker 5: because it like all of these MLMs, it prays usually

816
00:40:04,287 --> 00:40:06,047
Speaker 5: on women and usually on mothers.

817
00:40:06,207 --> 00:40:06,447
Speaker 1: Yeah.

818
00:40:06,527 --> 00:40:10,647
Speaker 5: So because you can work from home, it's flexible, you

819
00:40:10,687 --> 00:40:11,767
Speaker 5: can be your own boss.

820
00:40:12,167 --> 00:40:13,447
Speaker 1: And that's what women are craving.

821
00:40:13,487 --> 00:40:15,567
Speaker 5: They want to do something, they want to bring earn

822
00:40:15,607 --> 00:40:18,487
Speaker 5: an income, but maybe they can't do it around and

823
00:40:18,527 --> 00:40:21,967
Speaker 5: every woman I know who's fallen victim to these things

824
00:40:22,527 --> 00:40:24,847
Speaker 5: and paid money to do these courses and then of

825
00:40:24,887 --> 00:40:27,887
Speaker 5: course found and years ago, ten years ago, it was

826
00:40:27,887 --> 00:40:30,807
Speaker 5: all about becoming a diet coach or a nutrition coach.

827
00:40:31,287 --> 00:40:32,007
Speaker 4: Is the other one.

828
00:40:32,167 --> 00:40:34,847
Speaker 3: I've got all those people on my feed who were

829
00:40:34,887 --> 00:40:36,007
Speaker 3: doing things where I.

830
00:40:36,007 --> 00:40:39,127
Speaker 4: Go, how is this legal? How are you dishing out?

831
00:40:39,167 --> 00:40:42,167
Speaker 5: You have like an online course? And then they become

832
00:40:42,287 --> 00:40:46,207
Speaker 5: health coaches. And again it's the same type of woman

833
00:40:46,647 --> 00:40:49,047
Speaker 5: who it tends to be a woman who really needs

834
00:40:49,087 --> 00:40:53,167
Speaker 5: money or who really can't work in a regular job

835
00:40:53,247 --> 00:40:55,727
Speaker 5: or doesn't want to. It's also a get rich quick

836
00:40:55,967 --> 00:40:58,487
Speaker 5: a lot of promises are made and it looks too

837
00:40:58,487 --> 00:40:59,207
Speaker 5: good to be true.

838
00:40:59,007 --> 00:40:59,527
Speaker 1: Because it is.

839
00:40:59,887 --> 00:41:02,367
Speaker 2: I know lots of people though love their coaches, Like

840
00:41:02,447 --> 00:41:06,367
Speaker 2: I know lots of successful people who have a coach. Yeah,

841
00:41:06,487 --> 00:41:08,607
Speaker 2: I was on a call with I don't know, some

842
00:41:08,727 --> 00:41:11,487
Speaker 2: writer person who was like, I just got off the

843
00:41:11,487 --> 00:41:13,687
Speaker 2: call with my coach in LA and I've never felt

844
00:41:13,687 --> 00:41:15,727
Speaker 2: more fighted up and this is going to be amazing,

845
00:41:15,927 --> 00:41:17,407
Speaker 2: And I'm like, yeah, I want a bit of that.

846
00:41:17,567 --> 00:41:20,407
Speaker 2: I entirely understand the appeal because the thing is as

847
00:41:20,447 --> 00:41:23,207
Speaker 2: a therapist a as you've said me, or there's barriers,

848
00:41:23,247 --> 00:41:26,047
Speaker 2: it's expensive, but also I might not want to just

849
00:41:26,207 --> 00:41:29,447
Speaker 2: unpack all my inner everything. I might just want someone

850
00:41:29,447 --> 00:41:31,567
Speaker 2: to tell me how to be more effective, how to

851
00:41:31,607 --> 00:41:34,327
Speaker 2: be more efficient, how do I repay rise, how do whatever?

852
00:41:34,327 --> 00:41:37,447
Speaker 2: It is? Like, I can entirely understand the appeal of

853
00:41:37,487 --> 00:41:42,247
Speaker 2: a coach, so I don't really care about their certificates

854
00:41:42,327 --> 00:41:43,647
Speaker 2: and their qualifications.

855
00:41:43,687 --> 00:41:47,087
Speaker 3: If it works, yes, And that's a really good point

856
00:41:47,127 --> 00:41:50,487
Speaker 3: because life coaches aren't all made equal, which is the

857
00:41:50,487 --> 00:41:52,607
Speaker 3: same obviously with a therapist. And there are some who

858
00:41:52,687 --> 00:41:56,967
Speaker 3: have who are actually incredibly qualified, and they're even like

859
00:41:57,447 --> 00:41:59,887
Speaker 3: Ben Crow, who's not really a life coach, but he's.

860
00:41:59,687 --> 00:42:03,647
Speaker 2: A similar worldness, innovational person. Like who doesn't want someone

861
00:42:03,727 --> 00:42:05,327
Speaker 2: like that in their corner? Who's going to go Well,

862
00:42:05,367 --> 00:42:07,447
Speaker 2: the way that you should have this conversation is like this,

863
00:42:07,807 --> 00:42:09,127
Speaker 2: and the way that you should do that is like

864
00:42:09,647 --> 00:42:11,487
Speaker 2: and maybe, if you think of it, if you'd structure

865
00:42:11,487 --> 00:42:13,487
Speaker 2: your day a bit. I mean, we're all obsessed with

866
00:42:13,487 --> 00:42:16,287
Speaker 2: that stuff, right, So I understand the need. So what

867
00:42:16,327 --> 00:42:19,087
Speaker 2: we're talking about here is the fact that if you're

868
00:42:19,927 --> 00:42:22,727
Speaker 2: looking for that, you have to be wary that you're

869
00:42:22,727 --> 00:42:28,367
Speaker 2: not just getting poor old Betty who was sold this

870
00:42:28,487 --> 00:42:31,207
Speaker 2: pyramid scheme idea that she was going to make herself

871
00:42:31,287 --> 00:42:33,247
Speaker 2: rich when really she's just yeah.

872
00:42:33,287 --> 00:42:36,407
Speaker 5: Because then suddenly Betty's trying to convince you that what

873
00:42:36,447 --> 00:42:38,967
Speaker 5: you need to do is also become a coach. Yes,

874
00:42:39,127 --> 00:42:41,927
Speaker 5: that's the answer. So that's different because when someone is

875
00:42:41,927 --> 00:42:44,567
Speaker 5: actually coaching you. And I've seen coaches before. Although someone

876
00:42:44,607 --> 00:42:46,607
Speaker 5: recommended a new therapist to me recently, I went and

877
00:42:46,647 --> 00:42:48,527
Speaker 5: saw her, and before I went, I looked her up

878
00:42:48,567 --> 00:42:51,167
Speaker 5: and I was like, Oh, she's actually not qualified as

879
00:42:51,207 --> 00:42:54,087
Speaker 5: a therapist. She's more of a coach, and I actually

880
00:42:54,087 --> 00:42:55,847
Speaker 5: found her great. Would I go back to her. Yes

881
00:42:55,887 --> 00:42:59,807
Speaker 5: I would, but it's more about she didn't suggest that

882
00:42:59,887 --> 00:43:00,287
Speaker 5: I then.

883
00:43:00,247 --> 00:43:02,447
Speaker 1: Become a coach and.

884
00:43:02,407 --> 00:43:05,567
Speaker 5: Do pay her money apart from the sessions that I

885
00:43:05,647 --> 00:43:08,887
Speaker 5: was seeing her with. So as you say, you can

886
00:43:09,007 --> 00:43:11,847
Speaker 5: be vulnerable when someone sees a coach. If they work

887
00:43:11,967 --> 00:43:14,487
Speaker 5: and if they've got expertise, that's great. But I guess

888
00:43:14,567 --> 00:43:17,487
Speaker 5: what we're also wanting to flag is this idea of

889
00:43:18,727 --> 00:43:21,087
Speaker 5: women who think or maybe I'll become a coach.

890
00:43:21,447 --> 00:43:23,447
Speaker 1: So it's the two it's the two risks.

891
00:43:23,687 --> 00:43:29,247
Speaker 3: We also feel unqualified to live and by that, yes

892
00:43:29,367 --> 00:43:32,647
Speaker 3: we do. Like That's the thing, right, is that the

893
00:43:32,647 --> 00:43:35,287
Speaker 3: majority of these clients are also women.

894
00:43:35,647 --> 00:43:36,247
Speaker 4: I must say.

895
00:43:36,447 --> 00:43:38,447
Speaker 3: One of the richest people I know is a life

896
00:43:38,487 --> 00:43:40,207
Speaker 3: coach and it's a family friend.

897
00:43:40,287 --> 00:43:43,167
Speaker 4: Who makes unbelievable money.

898
00:43:43,207 --> 00:43:45,807
Speaker 3: She has siblings who are in who's a finance bro

899
00:43:45,967 --> 00:43:48,527
Speaker 3: and a blar and really really high up, and they

900
00:43:48,687 --> 00:43:50,167
Speaker 3: laughed at her when she said she was going to

901
00:43:50,167 --> 00:43:52,367
Speaker 3: be a life coach, and now she is living in some.

902
00:43:54,047 --> 00:43:55,607
Speaker 2: Because now everybody's gurgling.

903
00:43:55,647 --> 00:43:57,567
Speaker 1: Life coach can also be a business coach.

904
00:43:57,647 --> 00:44:01,767
Speaker 2: You can be there are coaches, But I think you've

905
00:44:01,807 --> 00:44:03,247
Speaker 2: hit the nail on the head there jesse A, but

906
00:44:03,367 --> 00:44:06,247
Speaker 2: we don't feel qualified to live because I think that

907
00:44:06,447 --> 00:44:10,967
Speaker 2: surely this enthusiasm for coaches is also part of our isolation.

908
00:44:11,127 --> 00:44:11,247
Speaker 1: Right.

909
00:44:11,287 --> 00:44:13,047
Speaker 2: We spend a lot of time looking at our phones,

910
00:44:13,087 --> 00:44:16,127
Speaker 2: and everybody's more successful than we are. That's the impression

911
00:44:16,127 --> 00:44:18,967
Speaker 2: you're getting from your algorithm. And so you're like, I

912
00:44:19,007 --> 00:44:22,367
Speaker 2: don't understand. And it's part of the whole push for

913
00:44:22,407 --> 00:44:23,767
Speaker 2: self improvement and productivity.

914
00:44:23,847 --> 00:44:24,007
Speaker 4: Right.

915
00:44:24,047 --> 00:44:26,407
Speaker 2: We all think if I just changed this and this

916
00:44:26,487 --> 00:44:28,687
Speaker 2: and this, I could be that and that and that.

917
00:44:29,087 --> 00:44:32,367
Speaker 2: And your family friend apparently hears that, but for most

918
00:44:32,447 --> 00:44:34,007
Speaker 2: of us, we're probably doing okay.

919
00:44:34,807 --> 00:44:38,567
Speaker 4: Yes, there's no like golden ticket.

920
00:44:38,687 --> 00:44:41,407
Speaker 3: And I've seen as well this thing of some people

921
00:44:41,407 --> 00:44:43,447
Speaker 3: I know who have really big followings and maybe they've

922
00:44:43,447 --> 00:44:46,407
Speaker 3: had other careers in entertainment or whatever, and they've got

923
00:44:46,447 --> 00:44:48,287
Speaker 3: one hundred thousand followers and they don't know what to

924
00:44:48,287 --> 00:44:48,647
Speaker 3: do with it.

925
00:44:49,167 --> 00:44:50,847
Speaker 4: They've all become life coaches.

926
00:44:50,487 --> 00:44:52,207
Speaker 3: Because it's like, that's how I can monetize it. There

927
00:44:52,287 --> 00:44:53,447
Speaker 3: must be money in course.

928
00:44:53,327 --> 00:44:55,207
Speaker 1: But well that's the point.

929
00:44:55,327 --> 00:44:58,727
Speaker 5: That's why the whole idea of an MLM is that

930
00:44:58,967 --> 00:45:00,287
Speaker 5: there are no customers.

931
00:45:00,687 --> 00:45:03,607
Speaker 1: There's just other people that you bring in to sell.

932
00:45:04,047 --> 00:45:07,807
Speaker 5: Yeah, So it's actually that's why the line between a

933
00:45:07,807 --> 00:45:12,167
Speaker 5: period scheme and EMMA is very fine, and regulators often

934
00:45:12,287 --> 00:45:14,487
Speaker 5: have a little bit of trouble because it can be

935
00:45:14,527 --> 00:45:18,447
Speaker 5: hard to prove that there aren't any potential customers for

936
00:45:18,487 --> 00:45:20,967
Speaker 5: the service that you're asking, you know, whether it's buy

937
00:45:21,007 --> 00:45:24,007
Speaker 5: all of these leggings, and then no one wants to

938
00:45:24,007 --> 00:45:25,607
Speaker 5: buy the leggings from you, so you've just got to

939
00:45:25,647 --> 00:45:28,687
Speaker 5: find other people who are in your what's called a downline,

940
00:45:29,047 --> 00:45:31,327
Speaker 5: who then also sell the leggings and give you a

941
00:45:31,327 --> 00:45:32,207
Speaker 5: little bit of a cut.

942
00:45:32,327 --> 00:45:33,247
Speaker 1: But they can't.

943
00:45:32,967 --> 00:45:35,527
Speaker 5: Find anyone either, so they've then got to find more people.

944
00:45:35,767 --> 00:45:39,327
Speaker 5: And so that's how that's how the MLM works, and that's.

945
00:45:39,167 --> 00:45:39,647
Speaker 1: What this is.

946
00:45:39,687 --> 00:45:44,047
Speaker 5: So thinking that there's this huge hunger and need and

947
00:45:44,207 --> 00:45:48,527
Speaker 5: market for a regular person who's just done a course

948
00:45:48,567 --> 00:45:50,687
Speaker 5: and he's going to become a life coach, it's just

949
00:45:50,727 --> 00:45:53,127
Speaker 5: not true. It's just not like there are some people

950
00:45:53,127 --> 00:45:54,887
Speaker 5: who are good and who who have clients and who

951
00:45:55,007 --> 00:45:57,927
Speaker 5: do it well. But it's really unlikely that you're going

952
00:45:57,967 --> 00:45:59,807
Speaker 5: to be one of those people just from doing a

953
00:45:59,847 --> 00:46:00,767
Speaker 5: course on the internet.

954
00:46:01,047 --> 00:46:03,767
Speaker 3: Now in the show notes are the two registered like

955
00:46:03,847 --> 00:46:05,567
Speaker 3: the way that you can tell if the person that

956
00:46:05,567 --> 00:46:07,647
Speaker 3: you're saying, whether it's a therapist or a counselor or

957
00:46:07,687 --> 00:46:11,607
Speaker 3: a psychologist, they hit the criteria. And you know that's

958
00:46:11,647 --> 00:46:13,967
Speaker 3: not to say there aren't great life coaches, but if

959
00:46:14,007 --> 00:46:16,487
Speaker 3: you want to triple check links in the show notes.

960
00:46:18,887 --> 00:46:22,487
Speaker 5: Jesse, what's the way in which you reckon motherhood has

961
00:46:22,567 --> 00:46:23,967
Speaker 5: changed you most?

962
00:46:24,967 --> 00:46:31,767
Speaker 3: Ooh, I something has happened to my I feel like,

963
00:46:31,847 --> 00:46:35,007
Speaker 3: to my biology, to my brain, to something that has

964
00:46:35,087 --> 00:46:38,367
Speaker 3: given me patience that I didn't have. I was an

965
00:46:38,367 --> 00:46:43,847
Speaker 3: incredibly impatient person before and quite prone to panic, and

966
00:46:43,887 --> 00:46:47,967
Speaker 3: I have been surprised at how that has changed. Like

967
00:46:47,967 --> 00:46:49,527
Speaker 3: if you'd told me that I could spend four or

968
00:46:49,527 --> 00:46:50,887
Speaker 3: five hours in a room trying to put a baby

969
00:46:50,927 --> 00:46:52,927
Speaker 3: to sleep, I would have gone, I'm not capable of that.

970
00:46:53,087 --> 00:46:54,207
Speaker 4: So something has changed.

971
00:46:54,247 --> 00:46:56,167
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I've lost that again. I think you've

972
00:46:56,207 --> 00:46:57,927
Speaker 1: got it and then you lose it as your kids

973
00:46:57,967 --> 00:46:58,487
Speaker 1: get older.

974
00:46:59,007 --> 00:47:01,567
Speaker 5: We spoke while you're away with Gemma, who is a

975
00:47:01,727 --> 00:47:05,847
Speaker 5: relatively new mother as well, about mattrescence and how becoming

976
00:47:05,847 --> 00:47:07,207
Speaker 5: a mother changes your identity.

977
00:47:07,247 --> 00:47:08,407
Speaker 1: So it's not just about how it.

978
00:47:08,447 --> 00:47:10,767
Speaker 5: Changes your lifestyle, which of course it does, but how

979
00:47:10,767 --> 00:47:12,167
Speaker 5: it can really change your identity.

980
00:47:12,567 --> 00:47:15,247
Speaker 3: I was heavily pregnant and terrified and I went and

981
00:47:15,247 --> 00:47:17,527
Speaker 3: had brunch with Gemma before I had learner.

982
00:47:17,327 --> 00:47:20,367
Speaker 4: And oh my god, speaking of life coaches.

983
00:47:21,807 --> 00:47:24,447
Speaker 3: Through that period, she's very, very wise, and like she

984
00:47:25,327 --> 00:47:27,567
Speaker 3: just she told me the good bits and was like,

985
00:47:27,607 --> 00:47:30,527
Speaker 3: you're prepared for the sleep. All of that and her

986
00:47:30,647 --> 00:47:33,127
Speaker 3: birth she didn't have a great she didn't have a

987
00:47:33,127 --> 00:47:36,087
Speaker 3: great one, but I have found her insights about motherhood

988
00:47:36,167 --> 00:47:36,727
Speaker 3: very very h.

989
00:47:36,687 --> 00:47:39,087
Speaker 5: We spoke about how it will often affect a woman's

990
00:47:39,087 --> 00:47:41,887
Speaker 5: identity but not a man's identity in that same way,

991
00:47:41,927 --> 00:47:42,767
Speaker 5: and how nothing.

992
00:47:42,527 --> 00:47:45,127
Speaker 1: Really prepares you for that, and out loud as if.

993
00:47:44,967 --> 00:47:47,367
Speaker 5: That sounds like the most boring thing you could ever

994
00:47:47,407 --> 00:47:49,527
Speaker 5: even imagine listening to because you don't have kids, you

995
00:47:49,527 --> 00:47:53,127
Speaker 5: don't want kids, or you just are not interested. We

996
00:47:53,167 --> 00:47:55,567
Speaker 5: have also got a No Filter episode this week about

997
00:47:55,607 --> 00:47:57,927
Speaker 5: an interview with a woman who has got kids and

998
00:47:57,967 --> 00:48:00,087
Speaker 5: has decided not to have kids, and she talks about

999
00:48:00,127 --> 00:48:02,887
Speaker 5: what her life is like at forty five, having made

1000
00:48:02,887 --> 00:48:04,527
Speaker 5: that decision about eight or nine.

1001
00:48:04,647 --> 00:48:05,407
Speaker 4: I love that.

1002
00:48:05,567 --> 00:48:07,767
Speaker 5: So we've got you covered no matter what you want

1003
00:48:07,767 --> 00:48:10,447
Speaker 5: to listen to. Next will link to those both of

1004
00:48:10,487 --> 00:48:11,047
Speaker 5: those episodes.

1005
00:48:11,047 --> 00:48:13,967
Speaker 2: In the show notes, a big thank you friends for

1006
00:48:14,087 --> 00:48:15,967
Speaker 2: listening to today's show, and a big thank you to

1007
00:48:15,967 --> 00:48:18,607
Speaker 2: you Jesse Stevens for coming back from your holiday. We

1008
00:48:18,687 --> 00:48:21,367
Speaker 2: missed you. I'm glad you decided to return. I thought

1009
00:48:21,407 --> 00:48:23,087
Speaker 2: we're looking at that flight you might have gone and

1010
00:48:23,127 --> 00:48:25,247
Speaker 2: I'm just going to stay, which.

1011
00:48:25,087 --> 00:48:28,207
Speaker 4: Is exactly I'm never coming back. I consider that it's

1012
00:48:28,207 --> 00:48:28,807
Speaker 4: been amazing.

1013
00:48:28,847 --> 00:48:30,487
Speaker 2: A big thank you to our team, of course for

1014
00:48:30,607 --> 00:48:32,007
Speaker 2: putting today's show together.

1015
00:48:32,287 --> 00:48:33,767
Speaker 1: We'll be back in your ears tomorrow.

1016
00:48:34,087 --> 00:48:37,807
Speaker 4: Bye.

1017
00:48:41,847 --> 00:48:45,007
Speaker 5: Shout out to any Mum and mia subscribers listening. If

1018
00:48:45,047 --> 00:48:47,607
Speaker 5: you love the show and want to support us as well,

1019
00:48:47,807 --> 00:48:50,207
Speaker 5: subscribing to Mom and Miya is the very best way

1020
00:48:50,247 --> 00:48:50,727
Speaker 5: to do so.

1021
00:48:50,807 --> 00:48:52,767
Speaker 1: There is a link in the episode description.