1
00:00:10,622 --> 00:00:13,342
Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

2
00:00:13,822 --> 00:00:17,182
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

3
00:00:17,222 --> 00:00:22,581
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Welcome friends to MoMA

4
00:00:22,662 --> 00:00:25,221
Speaker 2: Mia out Loud. It's what women are actually talking about

5
00:00:25,302 --> 00:00:28,782
Speaker 2: on Friday, August the first. Don't think about that too much.

6
00:00:29,101 --> 00:00:30,262
Speaker 2: I'm Holly Wayne Wright.

7
00:00:30,742 --> 00:00:32,901
Speaker 1: I thought it was may. I'm mea Friedman, and I'm

8
00:00:32,982 --> 00:00:33,982
Speaker 1: Jesse Stevens.

9
00:00:34,182 --> 00:00:37,862
Speaker 2: And here's what's on our agenda for today. Just how

10
00:00:38,022 --> 00:00:42,542
Speaker 2: rotten is your brain after years of attention nibbling scrolls?

11
00:00:43,182 --> 00:00:44,662
Speaker 2: We happily have a cure.

12
00:00:45,222 --> 00:00:47,902
Speaker 3: And the brutal essay that I haven't stopped thinking about

13
00:00:48,022 --> 00:00:51,622
Speaker 3: that thing in your life you're struggling with. What if

14
00:00:52,102 --> 00:00:55,022
Speaker 3: you're actually not trying that hard to fix it?

15
00:00:55,182 --> 00:00:57,742
Speaker 1: And I have some personal news later in the show,

16
00:00:57,902 --> 00:01:02,262
Speaker 1: but first, in case you missed it, which you probably did.

17
00:01:03,182 --> 00:01:06,982
Speaker 1: A woman called Aaron Punton who's twenty two from Northumberland.

18
00:01:07,382 --> 00:01:10,342
Speaker 2: I think that's in northern England. Yep, ok, down my

19
00:01:10,462 --> 00:01:11,222
Speaker 2: way sort off.

20
00:01:11,502 --> 00:01:14,302
Speaker 1: She has been forced to bleach her whole house after

21
00:01:14,382 --> 00:01:18,142
Speaker 1: discovering that a seagull she drunkenly carried home from a

22
00:01:18,262 --> 00:01:23,542
Speaker 1: night out had bird flew ah, any questions, very many questions.

23
00:01:23,582 --> 00:01:25,462
Speaker 3: I like how in the script it said drunk woman

24
00:01:25,502 --> 00:01:28,181
Speaker 3: takes seagull home and I was like, is that MEA's

25
00:01:28,222 --> 00:01:29,182
Speaker 3: personal news?

26
00:01:31,662 --> 00:01:34,822
Speaker 1: And I was like, this is interesting. She says that

27
00:01:34,902 --> 00:01:37,862
Speaker 1: she had no idea why, but she picked up the

28
00:01:37,902 --> 00:01:40,342
Speaker 1: bird without even a thought. Have you seen a TikTok

29
00:01:40,582 --> 00:01:42,782
Speaker 1: from outside of Wetherspoon's pup. Here's a little bit of

30
00:01:42,782 --> 00:01:44,702
Speaker 1: the TikTok that she made at the time with She

31
00:01:44,822 --> 00:01:49,822
Speaker 1: just flipped her camera around and posted this to TikTok mancaensa,

32
00:01:49,822 --> 00:01:50,582
Speaker 1: come on home.

33
00:01:50,902 --> 00:01:56,062
Speaker 2: Well, my bad has been moose. Look but old mane

34
00:01:56,102 --> 00:01:59,702
Speaker 2: he's a beauty. He actually wants to stop my woman everything.

35
00:01:59,742 --> 00:02:02,382
Speaker 1: But I've got action them. The song she's singing is

36
00:02:02,462 --> 00:02:04,622
Speaker 1: Valerie by Amy white House. I don't know, maybe she

37
00:02:04,702 --> 00:02:07,742
Speaker 1: decided that the bird should be called Valerie. If you're

38
00:02:07,742 --> 00:02:10,542
Speaker 1: just listening to us and not watching this podcast, she

39
00:02:10,702 --> 00:02:14,262
Speaker 1: has this seagull which is the size of a small dog. Yes,

40
00:02:14,422 --> 00:02:16,622
Speaker 1: under her arm they have seagulls that big.

41
00:02:16,742 --> 00:02:19,302
Speaker 2: Well, they're beating a lot of chips, these seagulls. They're

42
00:02:19,342 --> 00:02:22,422
Speaker 2: hanging around outside par But the right of normous date night,

43
00:02:22,502 --> 00:02:25,022
Speaker 2: you're getting a lot of chips. Also that accent, that

44
00:02:25,142 --> 00:02:28,142
Speaker 2: Northeastern accent w chef's kiss and.

45
00:02:28,102 --> 00:02:29,222
Speaker 3: Make everything funny.

46
00:02:29,262 --> 00:02:31,782
Speaker 1: The seagulls, in case you're worried about crueltied animals, the

47
00:02:31,782 --> 00:02:34,901
Speaker 1: seagull is very happily under her arm, like it reminded

48
00:02:34,902 --> 00:02:36,782
Speaker 1: me of that episode of and just like that. Then

49
00:02:36,822 --> 00:02:39,181
Speaker 1: carry had the pigeon bag, except it was a real

50
00:02:39,222 --> 00:02:40,501
Speaker 1: seagull and it was enormous.

51
00:02:40,582 --> 00:02:41,982
Speaker 2: Someone's like, excuse me, is that?

52
00:02:43,302 --> 00:02:48,142
Speaker 1: So she carried the seagull home, and she was baffled

53
00:02:48,142 --> 00:02:50,582
Speaker 1: to find it flying around her living room. The next morning,

54
00:02:50,902 --> 00:02:53,502
Speaker 1: she said, I don't even know what made me pick

55
00:02:53,582 --> 00:02:55,182
Speaker 1: him up. I put him in my sitting room with

56
00:02:55,222 --> 00:02:57,302
Speaker 1: a blanket. When I woke up in the morning, i'd

57
00:02:57,302 --> 00:02:59,582
Speaker 1: forgotten and he was just floating around the sitting room.

58
00:02:59,862 --> 00:03:01,502
Speaker 1: I dropped him off with the vets the next day

59
00:03:01,542 --> 00:03:03,822
Speaker 1: in a box and was told he had bird flu.

60
00:03:04,181 --> 00:03:06,062
Speaker 2: Maybe that's a clue to why I was a little

61
00:03:06,062 --> 00:03:08,862
Speaker 2: bit slippy and allowed himself to be. He wasn't feeling great.

62
00:03:09,022 --> 00:03:10,582
Speaker 2: He thought you were to take him home, give him

63
00:03:10,582 --> 00:03:11,982
Speaker 2: a lambsippotment a bed.

64
00:03:12,181 --> 00:03:16,182
Speaker 3: My first reaction was this bird flu ridden seagull is

65
00:03:16,222 --> 00:03:18,102
Speaker 3: better than some of the things I have taken home

66
00:03:19,062 --> 00:03:21,502
Speaker 3: after a drunk night out because I've worken up and gone,

67
00:03:21,542 --> 00:03:23,782
Speaker 3: you have something worse than bird flu out of my house.

68
00:03:25,142 --> 00:03:27,901
Speaker 3: I read an essay over the weekend that, on the surface,

69
00:03:28,102 --> 00:03:30,822
Speaker 3: posited quite a simple idea, but I have not stopped

70
00:03:30,862 --> 00:03:34,702
Speaker 3: thinking about it. Kate Hall published a substack piece called

71
00:03:35,142 --> 00:03:38,542
Speaker 3: maybe You're Not Actually Trying, and she begins by telling

72
00:03:38,582 --> 00:03:42,262
Speaker 3: this story about a stalker she had years ago, and

73
00:03:42,302 --> 00:03:45,262
Speaker 3: after a particularly bad experience with this stalker, she writes,

74
00:03:45,702 --> 00:03:48,582
Speaker 3: and now if I thought and snapped into action, except

75
00:03:48,622 --> 00:03:50,622
Speaker 3: that I didn't. Instead, I curled up in a ball

76
00:03:50,662 --> 00:03:53,622
Speaker 3: and cried and told friends who suggested contacting the police,

77
00:03:53,622 --> 00:03:55,262
Speaker 3: that there was no point that no one would be

78
00:03:55,302 --> 00:03:57,822
Speaker 3: able to help. In the end, it was her husband

79
00:03:57,862 --> 00:04:01,142
Speaker 3: who contacted all the right people and Boom sorted it

80
00:04:01,182 --> 00:04:04,382
Speaker 3: all out. Now, this isn't to minimize stalking, and it's

81
00:04:04,382 --> 00:04:06,822
Speaker 3: an imperfect example because for a lot of people it

82
00:04:06,942 --> 00:04:09,742
Speaker 3: is a really, really difficult thing to address. But the

83
00:04:09,782 --> 00:04:13,382
Speaker 3: reason she used this example was because she said, why

84
00:04:13,422 --> 00:04:15,862
Speaker 3: did it take another person getting involved for me to

85
00:04:15,942 --> 00:04:19,142
Speaker 3: realize I wasn't actually trying? And she goes on to

86
00:04:19,222 --> 00:04:23,702
Speaker 3: nut out this idea of selective agency in capable people,

87
00:04:24,181 --> 00:04:26,021
Speaker 3: and how there are three theaters in our lives. So

88
00:04:26,022 --> 00:04:29,021
Speaker 3: we've got work, say, we've got relationships, and there's other

89
00:04:29,501 --> 00:04:32,421
Speaker 3: and she says that we all know of the high

90
00:04:32,421 --> 00:04:35,981
Speaker 3: achieving boss who can't seem to hold down a relationship,

91
00:04:36,262 --> 00:04:38,782
Speaker 3: or the person at work who will throw everything at

92
00:04:38,782 --> 00:04:43,062
Speaker 3: a complex problem and fix it, and yet they're feeling

93
00:04:43,142 --> 00:04:44,942
Speaker 3: ill but won't take the first step.

94
00:04:44,741 --> 00:04:45,861
Speaker 1: Of going to the doctor right.

95
00:04:46,582 --> 00:04:50,262
Speaker 3: And her suggestion is that we all assume that there's

96
00:04:50,301 --> 00:04:54,382
Speaker 3: some area of our lives where we are without realizing it,

97
00:04:54,501 --> 00:04:59,741
Speaker 3: frozen in time, and she challenges us to locate it. Maia,

98
00:04:59,861 --> 00:05:00,742
Speaker 3: do you relate to this?

99
00:05:01,462 --> 00:05:05,222
Speaker 1: I also read this essay and was really struck by

100
00:05:05,262 --> 00:05:08,941
Speaker 1: it because the most interesting part of the story is

101
00:05:08,981 --> 00:05:11,501
Speaker 1: about when she thinks about it later. There's a period

102
00:05:11,501 --> 00:05:13,701
Speaker 1: of time from when it starts happening. It goes on

103
00:05:13,741 --> 00:05:17,421
Speaker 1: for years that this person's essentially stalking her and emailing her,

104
00:05:18,262 --> 00:05:21,782
Speaker 1: and it's years later when it sort of escalates that

105
00:05:21,902 --> 00:05:24,181
Speaker 1: her husband says, please, can you let me get involved?

106
00:05:24,342 --> 00:05:27,621
Speaker 1: And he sorts it out, and what she realizes is

107
00:05:27,662 --> 00:05:30,981
Speaker 1: that the time in her life when he first came in.

108
00:05:31,101 --> 00:05:33,222
Speaker 1: She was at a very different time in her life,

109
00:05:33,342 --> 00:05:35,822
Speaker 1: and she felt that she wasn't capable of it, and

110
00:05:35,861 --> 00:05:38,902
Speaker 1: she sort of got frozen in that, and she didn't

111
00:05:38,941 --> 00:05:42,421
Speaker 1: realize that several years down the track she was in

112
00:05:42,462 --> 00:05:44,342
Speaker 1: a much better position to deal with it, but she

113
00:05:44,662 --> 00:05:49,142
Speaker 1: got stuck into that headspace of I can't.

114
00:05:48,981 --> 00:05:51,222
Speaker 3: It's an unfixable problem, fixable.

115
00:05:50,821 --> 00:05:55,301
Speaker 1: Problem, and I really relate to this idea of everything's ruined,

116
00:05:55,501 --> 00:05:59,101
Speaker 1: nothing can fix it, like I will sometimes get like that.

117
00:05:59,222 --> 00:06:01,701
Speaker 1: And the only way I can describe how it feels

118
00:06:01,702 --> 00:06:05,222
Speaker 1: inside is that I do feel about six or seven

119
00:06:05,342 --> 00:06:07,941
Speaker 1: years old or even younger, and I'm stamping my foot

120
00:06:08,662 --> 00:06:10,941
Speaker 1: and I'm like it's all real and I can't. I can't.

121
00:06:11,101 --> 00:06:12,981
Speaker 3: I thought about what it was in my life. What

122
00:06:13,022 --> 00:06:15,741
Speaker 3: am I not actually trying at? And yet I'm putting

123
00:06:15,741 --> 00:06:17,541
Speaker 3: a lot of effort in, but I'm not actually trying,

124
00:06:17,582 --> 00:06:20,822
Speaker 3: Like I'm not really workshopping this problem. I wondered if

125
00:06:20,861 --> 00:06:22,462
Speaker 3: there was a clue for all of us in our

126
00:06:22,501 --> 00:06:24,902
Speaker 3: word of the year. If our word of the year

127
00:06:24,941 --> 00:06:28,781
Speaker 3: is often the thing that we've not actually that we value,

128
00:06:29,101 --> 00:06:32,981
Speaker 3: but we've actually not tried at. So mine is creativity.

129
00:06:32,981 --> 00:06:34,502
Speaker 3: I've been talking about it. Oh yeah, I took a

130
00:06:34,501 --> 00:06:35,782
Speaker 3: big game about how I'm going to.

131
00:06:35,782 --> 00:06:36,461
Speaker 1: Be really creative.

132
00:06:36,621 --> 00:06:40,101
Speaker 3: Yes, there's this Simpsons quote that says something like, we've

133
00:06:40,142 --> 00:06:43,581
Speaker 3: tried nothing and we're all out of ideas. That's my

134
00:06:43,702 --> 00:06:47,222
Speaker 3: approach to creativity. Have I done anything? No, but I'm

135
00:06:47,301 --> 00:06:49,861
Speaker 3: going I just can't. How will I write a book?

136
00:06:50,142 --> 00:06:53,262
Speaker 3: I've virtually tried nothing, but the helplessness of it, I'm

137
00:06:53,342 --> 00:06:54,501
Speaker 3: quite stuck in.

138
00:06:54,861 --> 00:06:57,541
Speaker 1: Do you think that's sometimes whole because there have been

139
00:06:57,621 --> 00:07:00,301
Speaker 1: years when we've all done our word of the year

140
00:07:00,501 --> 00:07:02,741
Speaker 1: and we've really failed. Do you think that's about just

141
00:07:02,861 --> 00:07:05,502
Speaker 1: outsourcing our word of the year and not trying going

142
00:07:05,501 --> 00:07:06,821
Speaker 1: I've made it my word of the year, so it

143
00:07:06,861 --> 00:07:08,022
Speaker 1: will magically have it.

144
00:07:08,022 --> 00:07:09,782
Speaker 2: It's sort of that word of the year is so

145
00:07:09,782 --> 00:07:12,622
Speaker 2: I don't actually have to knuck anything. It's already done. Yeah.

146
00:07:12,662 --> 00:07:15,102
Speaker 2: I think that's a very true, very good insight, Jesse.

147
00:07:15,422 --> 00:07:19,542
Speaker 2: I'm really interested in this idea of high agency individuals

148
00:07:19,662 --> 00:07:24,862
Speaker 2: and low agency individuals because I immediately can pick people

149
00:07:24,862 --> 00:07:26,542
Speaker 2: in my life now. I know that this is because

150
00:07:26,582 --> 00:07:29,542
Speaker 2: she said, as you've said, Jesse, think about the different theaters,

151
00:07:29,542 --> 00:07:32,182
Speaker 2: as she calls them, relationships, work, and then she says

152
00:07:32,262 --> 00:07:34,262
Speaker 2: kind of self care, and what she means by that

153
00:07:34,342 --> 00:07:35,461
Speaker 2: is not massages and stuff.

154
00:07:35,542 --> 00:07:36,342
Speaker 3: It's like health.

155
00:07:36,342 --> 00:07:40,542
Speaker 2: Therapy, exercise, you know, like eating well, like looking after yourself.

156
00:07:40,542 --> 00:07:43,422
Speaker 2: So think about those three areas. You might be high

157
00:07:43,462 --> 00:07:45,342
Speaker 2: agency in one but not in others. But there are

158
00:07:45,381 --> 00:07:48,822
Speaker 2: definitely people who are just more high agencies. The definition

159
00:07:48,862 --> 00:07:52,342
Speaker 2: of these two broadly are high agency individuals are proactive,

160
00:07:52,381 --> 00:07:55,102
Speaker 2: see themselves as shapers of their own destiny, and actively

161
00:07:55,142 --> 00:07:59,062
Speaker 2: work to overcome obstacles. Mia, I think you are pretty

162
00:07:59,182 --> 00:08:01,862
Speaker 2: high agency. You're like, when I come to you with

163
00:08:01,902 --> 00:08:03,782
Speaker 2: a problem, You're like, do this and this and this,

164
00:08:03,982 --> 00:08:07,941
Speaker 2: and I'm like, okay. Low agency individuals tend to be

165
00:08:07,982 --> 00:08:11,381
Speaker 2: more passive, real active, and feel a greater sense of

166
00:08:11,422 --> 00:08:15,901
Speaker 2: helplessness or external control over their circumstances. So when you

167
00:08:16,022 --> 00:08:18,702
Speaker 2: kind of go, well, you know, it's just complicated and

168
00:08:18,862 --> 00:08:19,662
Speaker 2: I just cut you know.

169
00:08:19,862 --> 00:08:20,102
Speaker 3: Yeah.

170
00:08:20,142 --> 00:08:23,701
Speaker 2: And it's like the difference between me and my friend Penny,

171
00:08:23,742 --> 00:08:25,862
Speaker 2: for example, who I will talk about like, oh, we

172
00:08:25,982 --> 00:08:29,261
Speaker 2: need to get a new bathroom or something. I'd probably

173
00:08:29,262 --> 00:08:31,742
Speaker 2: talk about that for two years. And in the first

174
00:08:31,742 --> 00:08:34,462
Speaker 2: three sentences of me saying that she's already packed up

175
00:08:34,462 --> 00:08:37,862
Speaker 2: her bathroom called the builder got twenty five tile samples? Like,

176
00:08:37,902 --> 00:08:40,661
Speaker 2: you know, whatever it is? Is your bias to action

177
00:08:40,902 --> 00:08:43,542
Speaker 2: or is your bias to pondering? Do you know what

178
00:08:43,542 --> 00:08:43,862
Speaker 2: I mean?

179
00:08:44,342 --> 00:08:46,662
Speaker 1: To your point? I think I am sometimes too high

180
00:08:46,662 --> 00:08:50,142
Speaker 1: agency because I just also want to fix everybody else's problems,

181
00:08:50,182 --> 00:08:55,102
Speaker 1: which is like, can be quite controlling. I get exasperated

182
00:08:55,302 --> 00:08:57,982
Speaker 1: by people who are low agency. And I'll give you

183
00:08:58,022 --> 00:09:00,622
Speaker 1: an example. I think a really good indicator of high

184
00:09:00,622 --> 00:09:04,342
Speaker 1: agency low agency. I'm so baffled by people who don't

185
00:09:04,342 --> 00:09:08,102
Speaker 1: get their driver's license, because to me, that's the ultimate

186
00:09:08,142 --> 00:09:08,782
Speaker 1: in agency.

187
00:09:10,422 --> 00:09:12,102
Speaker 3: I think you're exactly right, But do you know how

188
00:09:12,262 --> 00:09:16,502
Speaker 3: I was when I got my life, oh like late twenties.

189
00:09:16,582 --> 00:09:19,582
Speaker 1: What not late twenties? I knew you before that.

190
00:09:20,142 --> 00:09:21,942
Speaker 3: I reckon you met me before I had a drivers

191
00:09:21,942 --> 00:09:22,742
Speaker 3: Like are you serious?

192
00:09:23,782 --> 00:09:23,942
Speaker 2: Nah?

193
00:09:24,062 --> 00:09:28,582
Speaker 1: To me, I put outside licenses in a particular basket

194
00:09:28,782 --> 00:09:31,302
Speaker 1: of I'm going to be harsh and say victims. I

195
00:09:31,342 --> 00:09:34,902
Speaker 1: don't really mean that, but passivity, like I've got no

196
00:09:34,982 --> 00:09:37,462
Speaker 1: agency in my life. Help me understand.

197
00:09:37,462 --> 00:09:40,182
Speaker 2: Funny, But I think that that's it is a good example.

198
00:09:40,182 --> 00:09:41,942
Speaker 2: Although you could put a lot of circumstances in that

199
00:09:41,982 --> 00:09:45,542
Speaker 2: do you live in a good public transport like all

200
00:09:45,542 --> 00:09:47,382
Speaker 2: of those things. But I get what you mean. Though

201
00:09:47,422 --> 00:09:50,462
Speaker 2: you're not driving your You're literally not driving your y.

202
00:09:51,302 --> 00:09:53,702
Speaker 2: You are relying on other people to drive you whatever.

203
00:09:53,702 --> 00:09:56,742
Speaker 2: That looks like that is definitely true. But I think

204
00:09:56,742 --> 00:09:59,382
Speaker 2: it's really interesting how you can be high agency in

205
00:09:59,422 --> 00:10:03,582
Speaker 2: some areas because if you think about those theaters of work, relationships,

206
00:10:03,782 --> 00:10:07,662
Speaker 2: self care. In work, I do try hard, like I

207
00:10:07,742 --> 00:10:10,182
Speaker 2: get most things done. I take on more projects. I

208
00:10:10,182 --> 00:10:12,302
Speaker 2: do want to want not very high agency with it,

209
00:10:12,422 --> 00:10:15,381
Speaker 2: but not always like really effectively like that. I'm a

210
00:10:15,422 --> 00:10:17,142
Speaker 2: bit of a procrastinator at a time, but I do

211
00:10:17,222 --> 00:10:19,862
Speaker 2: a lot. But then say, how long have you guys

212
00:10:19,902 --> 00:10:22,062
Speaker 2: been listening to me talk lately? I mean over the

213
00:10:22,182 --> 00:10:24,382
Speaker 2: years you've talked about many things in French, but like

214
00:10:24,942 --> 00:10:29,942
Speaker 2: about how I'm gonna like embrace exercise this year again

215
00:10:29,982 --> 00:10:32,302
Speaker 2: because I've been through phases where I really have or

216
00:10:32,462 --> 00:10:34,942
Speaker 2: meditation or whatever, like I bang on and on and

217
00:10:35,022 --> 00:10:36,422
Speaker 2: I've got to look after myself more.

218
00:10:36,502 --> 00:10:38,662
Speaker 3: To look remember you were buying a new car for

219
00:10:38,702 --> 00:10:39,382
Speaker 3: like six years.

220
00:10:39,462 --> 00:10:42,182
Speaker 2: Yes, like I'm very I can be very low agency.

221
00:10:42,182 --> 00:10:45,022
Speaker 2: Whereas so even though I'm supposed to be looking after

222
00:10:45,022 --> 00:10:47,982
Speaker 2: myself better. I'm like putting off doctor's appointments because I

223
00:10:47,982 --> 00:10:49,542
Speaker 2: haven't got time for that, and I didn't get that

224
00:10:49,582 --> 00:10:51,902
Speaker 2: test they needed, and you know what, I'll just let

225
00:10:51,942 --> 00:10:55,302
Speaker 2: that roll. So her theory would be that side of

226
00:10:55,342 --> 00:10:58,342
Speaker 2: myself is stuck somewhere and it needs unsticking, whereas the

227
00:10:58,382 --> 00:11:01,062
Speaker 2: work side of myself is not stuck. It's in motion,

228
00:11:01,222 --> 00:11:02,982
Speaker 2: it's with you.

229
00:11:03,502 --> 00:11:05,982
Speaker 1: I don't think you can work in digital media, or

230
00:11:06,022 --> 00:11:08,542
Speaker 1: certainly you can't be successful in digital media without having

231
00:11:08,622 --> 00:11:10,942
Speaker 1: high agency, because there's not a lot of time to

232
00:11:10,942 --> 00:11:13,062
Speaker 1: just sit around and wait for something to happen. You've

233
00:11:13,102 --> 00:11:14,822
Speaker 1: got to make it happen or get left behind.

234
00:11:14,902 --> 00:11:17,222
Speaker 3: I think it's probably that your energy is finite, and

235
00:11:17,262 --> 00:11:20,142
Speaker 3: that we spend it in ways that might not be

236
00:11:20,422 --> 00:11:23,142
Speaker 3: conscious or chosen, but that a lot of people are

237
00:11:23,182 --> 00:11:25,822
Speaker 3: incredibly effective at work and are not so effective when

238
00:11:25,822 --> 00:11:27,622
Speaker 3: they walk in the door at home. But I think

239
00:11:27,622 --> 00:11:30,302
Speaker 3: that a piece of this puzzle is learned helplessness, right,

240
00:11:30,742 --> 00:11:34,822
Speaker 3: So that's a psychological concept that sort of suggests that

241
00:11:34,862 --> 00:11:38,062
Speaker 3: if you've had a series of negative life events happen,

242
00:11:38,462 --> 00:11:42,622
Speaker 3: particularly in childhood, you begin to think that basically you

243
00:11:42,702 --> 00:11:44,902
Speaker 3: have no bearing on the world around you. So I

244
00:11:44,902 --> 00:11:48,342
Speaker 3: remember we learned in psychology about this experiment that they

245
00:11:48,342 --> 00:11:50,742
Speaker 3: did with an elephant, and they got the elephant and

246
00:11:50,822 --> 00:11:53,582
Speaker 3: put ropes around the elephant's ankle when the elephant was

247
00:11:53,622 --> 00:11:56,702
Speaker 3: a baby, and it would struggle and struggle and struggle,

248
00:11:56,942 --> 00:11:59,742
Speaker 3: and eventually even when it got really really big and

249
00:11:59,782 --> 00:12:02,662
Speaker 3: it was a grown up elephant and one struggle, it

250
00:12:02,662 --> 00:12:04,702
Speaker 3: would have been released from this rope. But by that

251
00:12:04,742 --> 00:12:06,582
Speaker 3: point it is stuff trying, because it was just like,

252
00:12:06,622 --> 00:12:08,262
Speaker 3: I'm struck to this rope. This is what my life

253
00:12:08,302 --> 00:12:08,542
Speaker 3: is like.

254
00:12:09,542 --> 00:12:12,102
Speaker 1: That's sad. That's like the Romanian orphans who don't cry

255
00:12:12,142 --> 00:12:13,742
Speaker 1: because they know that no one's coming.

256
00:12:13,582 --> 00:12:16,542
Speaker 3: Exactly exactly right. So there's a piece of this puzzle

257
00:12:16,902 --> 00:12:22,342
Speaker 3: which is about negative life experiences, about things like domestic violence.

258
00:12:22,542 --> 00:12:24,822
Speaker 3: I think when you go are you trying, there's an

259
00:12:24,822 --> 00:12:27,542
Speaker 3: element of why are you still in that relationship? Which

260
00:12:27,582 --> 00:12:29,502
Speaker 3: is a really complicated yeah.

261
00:12:29,582 --> 00:12:32,182
Speaker 2: So it's the wrong way to pick up this piece

262
00:12:32,222 --> 00:12:35,462
Speaker 2: of information about like are you really trying is not

263
00:12:35,542 --> 00:12:38,222
Speaker 2: to go all the problems in your life are your

264
00:12:38,262 --> 00:12:41,062
Speaker 2: fault because you're not trying. It's much more complicated than that,

265
00:12:41,422 --> 00:12:45,542
Speaker 2: but on a more sort of simple, high level of

266
00:12:45,662 --> 00:12:47,902
Speaker 2: things that we know that at other times in our life,

267
00:12:47,902 --> 00:12:50,062
Speaker 2: when we have applied ourselves to it in the same

268
00:12:50,102 --> 00:12:52,062
Speaker 2: manner that we bring to an area where we have

269
00:12:52,142 --> 00:12:54,102
Speaker 2: high agency, we can shift the dial.

270
00:12:54,342 --> 00:12:56,862
Speaker 3: Yeah. Like, I felt as though I was at a

271
00:12:56,902 --> 00:13:00,902
Speaker 3: particular place in my late teens twenties where I had

272
00:13:00,902 --> 00:13:04,262
Speaker 3: that sort of propensity towards depression, and in times in

273
00:13:04,302 --> 00:13:06,382
Speaker 3: my life when I've been particularly anxious and depressed, this

274
00:13:06,422 --> 00:13:08,662
Speaker 3: is the first thing I go to. No problem is solvable,

275
00:13:09,542 --> 00:13:10,542
Speaker 3: brow my arms up.

276
00:13:10,662 --> 00:13:13,742
Speaker 1: It's a feeling of overwhelm. Yes, yes, And you're saying

277
00:13:13,782 --> 00:13:16,782
Speaker 1: more than overwhelm, it's helplessness and hopelessness.

278
00:13:16,862 --> 00:13:17,062
Speaker 2: Yeah.

279
00:13:17,182 --> 00:13:20,702
Speaker 3: Yeah. Like, And the correlation between learned helplessness and depression

280
00:13:20,742 --> 00:13:22,822
Speaker 3: is I mean that they're like the same thing, which is,

281
00:13:22,862 --> 00:13:25,942
Speaker 3: if you walk around the world thinking you have no impact,

282
00:13:26,182 --> 00:13:28,102
Speaker 3: it's probably healthier to think you have more of an

283
00:13:28,102 --> 00:13:31,102
Speaker 3: impact on the world than you actually do that your choices.

284
00:13:31,702 --> 00:13:33,342
Speaker 3: So like, there are two types of people, people who

285
00:13:33,342 --> 00:13:36,422
Speaker 3: think that their choices will have a real bearing on

286
00:13:36,462 --> 00:13:38,222
Speaker 3: what happens in their lives and the world.

287
00:13:38,622 --> 00:13:39,822
Speaker 1: That's what I think, And.

288
00:13:39,742 --> 00:13:42,102
Speaker 3: In fact, apparently the older you get a lot of

289
00:13:42,142 --> 00:13:44,902
Speaker 3: older people start to fall into the learned helplessness because

290
00:13:44,902 --> 00:13:46,862
Speaker 3: I think they look at their lives and go, I

291
00:13:46,862 --> 00:13:48,262
Speaker 3: don't really have that much control.

292
00:13:48,742 --> 00:13:52,262
Speaker 1: I remember being in a terrible relationship, an abusive relationship,

293
00:13:52,302 --> 00:13:54,862
Speaker 1: and I held all the cards. It was so weird

294
00:13:54,942 --> 00:13:57,622
Speaker 1: because on paper, I had all the agency. He was

295
00:13:57,662 --> 00:14:00,182
Speaker 1: living in my apartment, he was driving my car.

296
00:14:00,502 --> 00:14:01,142
Speaker 2: I had the job.

297
00:14:01,222 --> 00:14:04,342
Speaker 1: He was unemployed, he was a drug addict. I wasn't.

298
00:14:04,902 --> 00:14:07,222
Speaker 1: I had family, support and friends and he didn't. And

299
00:14:07,982 --> 00:14:10,342
Speaker 1: yet he did such a number on me over a

300
00:14:10,342 --> 00:14:12,702
Speaker 1: couple of years that I had this learned helplessness and

301
00:14:12,742 --> 00:14:15,302
Speaker 1: hopelessness to the point where I didn't feel like I

302
00:14:15,342 --> 00:14:17,381
Speaker 1: had any agency. And I remember a close girlfriend of

303
00:14:17,422 --> 00:14:21,022
Speaker 1: mine said, kick him out, change the locks, get the

304
00:14:21,062 --> 00:14:23,982
Speaker 1: cleaners in, and get him out of your life. And

305
00:14:24,622 --> 00:14:26,862
Speaker 1: that felt like an impossible thing for me to say.

306
00:14:27,342 --> 00:14:30,022
Speaker 1: And it wasn't, ironically, until he went overseas and I

307
00:14:30,062 --> 00:14:32,222
Speaker 1: had that space from him that I was able to

308
00:14:32,342 --> 00:14:35,342
Speaker 1: end it. But then years later I saw her in

309
00:14:35,382 --> 00:14:38,182
Speaker 1: the same situation and I said the same thing to

310
00:14:38,222 --> 00:14:40,782
Speaker 1: her and she couldn't recognize it and she couldn't do it.

311
00:14:40,862 --> 00:14:43,782
Speaker 2: This is really interesting about people telling you, because one

312
00:14:43,822 --> 00:14:45,742
Speaker 2: of the things that is written in this newsletter is

313
00:14:45,782 --> 00:14:48,902
Speaker 2: she says, apply yourself in the areas where you know

314
00:14:48,942 --> 00:14:51,262
Speaker 2: your low agency, but you could be higher agency, you

315
00:14:51,262 --> 00:14:54,702
Speaker 2: know what I mean, not necessarily for complex reasons. How

316
00:14:54,702 --> 00:14:56,302
Speaker 2: have I done my best to come up with a

317
00:14:56,302 --> 00:14:58,902
Speaker 2: set of potential solutions using all the resources I have?

318
00:14:59,022 --> 00:15:00,822
Speaker 2: Am I doing as well by myself as I would

319
00:15:00,822 --> 00:15:03,742
Speaker 2: buy any friend who came to me with the same problem.

320
00:15:03,782 --> 00:15:05,662
Speaker 2: So you know how people often say that to you,

321
00:15:06,342 --> 00:15:08,902
Speaker 2: like what would you say to a friend in this situation?

322
00:15:09,342 --> 00:15:13,062
Speaker 2: An interesting thought experiment, but it's not so much a

323
00:15:13,102 --> 00:15:15,822
Speaker 2: personality type as your story just shows as where you

324
00:15:15,862 --> 00:15:17,862
Speaker 2: are in that moment, because your friend had all the

325
00:15:17,902 --> 00:15:20,422
Speaker 2: answers until it was her problem, and then she needed

326
00:15:20,462 --> 00:15:22,662
Speaker 2: you to have all the answers, and although you might

327
00:15:22,702 --> 00:15:25,342
Speaker 2: not act with high agency in that moment, you might

328
00:15:25,382 --> 00:15:27,782
Speaker 2: file it away and get there.

329
00:15:27,582 --> 00:15:30,382
Speaker 3: Which what your friend did is really I think like

330
00:15:30,382 --> 00:15:32,742
Speaker 3: the bedrock of therapy, right is that you feel like

331
00:15:32,782 --> 00:15:35,382
Speaker 3: you're stuck with all these positions and you can sit

332
00:15:35,462 --> 00:15:38,222
Speaker 3: there and the therapist who often leads you to your

333
00:15:38,222 --> 00:15:40,622
Speaker 3: own conclusions because they ask questions, and they ask questions,

334
00:15:40,822 --> 00:15:42,702
Speaker 3: But it might get to a point where it's like, oh,

335
00:15:42,742 --> 00:15:45,182
Speaker 3: well I could leave my job, and it's like, yeah,

336
00:15:45,262 --> 00:15:47,902
Speaker 3: you could, you know what I mean Like it kind

337
00:15:47,942 --> 00:15:51,222
Speaker 3: of leads you to a point of choice rather than rumination,

338
00:15:51,542 --> 00:15:52,182
Speaker 3: which I have.

339
00:15:52,222 --> 00:15:54,782
Speaker 1: A therapist who once called her a thought trap, because

340
00:15:54,862 --> 00:15:57,942
Speaker 1: kids can get into this a bit where it's just like, no,

341
00:15:58,022 --> 00:16:00,142
Speaker 1: bet I can't. We'll try it, No, but I can't.

342
00:16:00,822 --> 00:16:02,742
Speaker 1: Maybe it's not kids, maybe it's certain type of people.

343
00:16:02,822 --> 00:16:06,142
Speaker 1: But I also, back to what you said about childhood,

344
00:16:06,222 --> 00:16:08,462
Speaker 1: I think it can go both ways because I think

345
00:16:08,502 --> 00:16:12,262
Speaker 1: if all your needs get met as a child, then

346
00:16:12,302 --> 00:16:14,582
Speaker 1: you can just feel like it's out of your control

347
00:16:14,622 --> 00:16:16,662
Speaker 1: and someone else will meet them. But at the same time,

348
00:16:16,702 --> 00:16:20,062
Speaker 1: if your needs don't get met, you learn well, I

349
00:16:20,102 --> 00:16:22,462
Speaker 1: have to do it myself, so I better have agency

350
00:16:23,142 --> 00:16:26,022
Speaker 1: or I'm going to be screwed. What an interesting essay.

351
00:16:26,102 --> 00:16:28,822
Speaker 1: We will put a link to it in the show notes.

352
00:16:28,782 --> 00:16:31,342
Speaker 3: Justice for bitches who didn't get their license till late

353
00:16:31,382 --> 00:16:33,422
Speaker 3: in life. I would like the out louders to tell

354
00:16:33,422 --> 00:16:35,342
Speaker 3: me because there's a particular type of person and for

355
00:16:35,382 --> 00:16:37,102
Speaker 3: some reason they're my people.

356
00:16:37,822 --> 00:16:41,342
Speaker 2: Out louders in a moment, how rotten is your brain

357
00:16:41,702 --> 00:16:44,942
Speaker 2: and is it savable. No, we have some good news friends,

358
00:16:45,062 --> 00:16:53,062
Speaker 2: good news. Brain rot. It's everywhere. So brain rot is

359
00:16:53,102 --> 00:16:56,262
Speaker 2: two things. Actually, it's a term bandied about by young

360
00:16:56,262 --> 00:16:59,942
Speaker 2: people like my son who's thirteen, as like a word

361
00:16:59,942 --> 00:17:01,902
Speaker 2: for a lot of content that they consume, a lot

362
00:17:01,942 --> 00:17:05,502
Speaker 2: of sort of pointless, very online content. So for a

363
00:17:05,502 --> 00:17:08,182
Speaker 2: while there when like skibbety toilet was the biggest thing

364
00:17:08,222 --> 00:17:11,582
Speaker 2: that Jen Alfers was saying, that was brain rot. Right,

365
00:17:11,982 --> 00:17:13,262
Speaker 2: But it's also.

366
00:17:13,061 --> 00:17:14,422
Speaker 1: So it's different to hate watching.

367
00:17:14,581 --> 00:17:18,182
Speaker 2: It's very different, so they love it. It's an actual genre,

368
00:17:18,462 --> 00:17:20,341
Speaker 2: so it's got sort of a few different meanings. But

369
00:17:20,502 --> 00:17:22,821
Speaker 2: brain rot is an actual sort of genre of content

370
00:17:22,901 --> 00:17:26,181
Speaker 2: that like kids will watch on YouTube. An example, they'll say, yeah,

371
00:17:26,182 --> 00:17:28,821
Speaker 2: this is brain is brain an example, not a kid.

372
00:17:28,942 --> 00:17:31,941
Speaker 2: Local will often show me tiktoks of an ai yetty

373
00:17:32,101 --> 00:17:35,222
Speaker 2: doing a day in life, and I feel it poison

374
00:17:35,262 --> 00:17:37,022
Speaker 2: my soul every time I say it, I go, this

375
00:17:37,141 --> 00:17:37,702
Speaker 2: isn't good.

376
00:17:37,901 --> 00:17:39,901
Speaker 1: So it's something that's completely pointless.

377
00:17:40,101 --> 00:17:41,302
Speaker 3: It is dumb.

378
00:17:41,381 --> 00:17:45,622
Speaker 2: But also it's a thing that happens to us by

379
00:17:45,702 --> 00:17:48,901
Speaker 2: not literally. The scientists aren't entirely like in on the

380
00:17:48,901 --> 00:17:51,341
Speaker 2: fact that it's literally happened to us. But it's a

381
00:17:51,462 --> 00:17:54,902
Speaker 2: term that we now use for what fractured our attention spans,

382
00:17:55,262 --> 00:17:58,221
Speaker 2: What means we can't read books anymore, what means we

383
00:17:58,542 --> 00:18:02,861
Speaker 2: spend hours somehow we feel involuntarily talking of low agency

384
00:18:02,901 --> 00:18:07,141
Speaker 2: high agency scrolling TikTok or Instagram reels or YouTube shorts

385
00:18:07,182 --> 00:18:08,502
Speaker 2: or whatever it is your feet.

386
00:18:08,581 --> 00:18:09,821
Speaker 1: It's like dirty in your brain.

387
00:18:10,341 --> 00:18:12,901
Speaker 2: We feel as we're doing it, and we know it's mindless.

388
00:18:12,901 --> 00:18:16,061
Speaker 2: We know it's shallows surface and silly, and it's slowly,

389
00:18:16,182 --> 00:18:19,742
Speaker 2: slowly eroding our ability to focus deeply. So we might

390
00:18:19,942 --> 00:18:23,862
Speaker 2: then use it as like I've got brain wrong. Does

391
00:18:23,901 --> 00:18:24,982
Speaker 2: it sound familiar to you? Both?

392
00:18:25,022 --> 00:18:25,141
Speaker 1: Oh?

393
00:18:25,222 --> 00:18:25,422
Speaker 3: Yeah?

394
00:18:25,422 --> 00:18:27,061
Speaker 2: How far gone do you think your brains are? Before

395
00:18:27,101 --> 00:18:29,222
Speaker 2: I tell you the tricky steps to getting it back?

396
00:18:29,502 --> 00:18:33,542
Speaker 3: Very very far. Most of what I consume is making

397
00:18:33,621 --> 00:18:36,262
Speaker 3: me dumber, and I have tried a few things to

398
00:18:36,302 --> 00:18:37,861
Speaker 3: fix it, so I'm interested to see if they are.

399
00:18:37,942 --> 00:18:40,221
Speaker 2: Do you what do you watch or what do you

400
00:18:40,661 --> 00:18:43,742
Speaker 2: waste time on? Mea that you would consider brain rock?

401
00:18:44,222 --> 00:18:47,061
Speaker 1: To me, it's less of a particular type of content

402
00:18:47,942 --> 00:18:52,501
Speaker 1: than jumping and the medium jumping jumping, jumping jumping, just

403
00:18:52,901 --> 00:18:55,222
Speaker 1: scrolling jumping, scrolling jumping.

404
00:18:54,901 --> 00:18:56,981
Speaker 3: So I think. It's like there was this great article

405
00:18:57,022 --> 00:18:59,702
Speaker 3: about compression culture, which was this idea that we're trying

406
00:18:59,702 --> 00:19:04,262
Speaker 3: to get information as compressed as possible, that it's inefficient

407
00:19:04,341 --> 00:19:07,221
Speaker 3: to think, and so I reckon it's the three seconds,

408
00:19:07,262 --> 00:19:08,941
Speaker 3: three the second three seconds. And the other day I

409
00:19:08,982 --> 00:19:12,262
Speaker 3: stopped on a of a cake and it was being

410
00:19:12,302 --> 00:19:14,782
Speaker 3: decorated by a tennis racket and they were just doing

411
00:19:14,821 --> 00:19:17,101
Speaker 3: these brain and I watched it and watched it to

412
00:19:17,141 --> 00:19:18,861
Speaker 3: see the final result. They took it off. It was

413
00:19:18,942 --> 00:19:21,941
Speaker 3: just sludge. There was no point to it exactly.

414
00:19:21,982 --> 00:19:24,381
Speaker 2: And it's like I'll start off by scrolling going, oh,

415
00:19:24,422 --> 00:19:27,182
Speaker 2: I'm going to look for like gardening whatever. But then

416
00:19:27,422 --> 00:19:30,581
Speaker 2: five minutes, ten minutes later, I'm watching someone do a dance,

417
00:19:30,621 --> 00:19:32,741
Speaker 2: and then I'm watching somebody teach someone else how to

418
00:19:32,742 --> 00:19:34,341
Speaker 2: do a dance. And then I'm to you, like, so

419
00:19:34,422 --> 00:19:35,141
Speaker 2: it's just And.

420
00:19:35,061 --> 00:19:37,661
Speaker 3: What I find then is that I've trained my brain

421
00:19:37,782 --> 00:19:39,661
Speaker 3: to do these snippets. And then I sit down to

422
00:19:39,782 --> 00:19:44,101
Speaker 3: read a piece in the New York Times that's really meaty,

423
00:19:44,661 --> 00:19:47,662
Speaker 3: and I feel my brain go nah nahn and pull

424
00:19:47,742 --> 00:19:48,621
Speaker 3: myself away from it.

425
00:19:49,022 --> 00:19:50,622
Speaker 1: They do that thing of I'll save that flater, I'll

426
00:19:50,621 --> 00:19:52,542
Speaker 1: save that flater. I'll save that for later. I have

427
00:19:52,581 --> 00:19:55,901
Speaker 1: a question, though, what's the difference between brain rot or

428
00:19:55,942 --> 00:19:58,581
Speaker 1: the act of rotting your brain, and just watching something

429
00:19:58,621 --> 00:20:00,502
Speaker 1: that's kind of mindless and soothing.

430
00:20:00,901 --> 00:20:03,382
Speaker 2: I think soothing is a bit different, although we could

431
00:20:03,462 --> 00:20:05,742
Speaker 2: argue that all of this is self soothing in a way,

432
00:20:06,262 --> 00:20:08,742
Speaker 2: but I think the idea is that it is eroding

433
00:20:08,782 --> 00:20:10,661
Speaker 2: our ability to think more deeply.

434
00:20:10,782 --> 00:20:13,821
Speaker 1: For example, something that I am watching a lot on

435
00:20:13,861 --> 00:20:18,542
Speaker 1: TikTok is ballerinas being fitted for or breaking in their

436
00:20:18,581 --> 00:20:19,342
Speaker 1: ballet shoes.

437
00:20:19,422 --> 00:20:21,262
Speaker 2: That's very specific.

438
00:20:22,702 --> 00:20:25,461
Speaker 1: There's no point to it. They're not dancing, they're not

439
00:20:25,502 --> 00:20:27,821
Speaker 1: actually dancing with their shoes. There's nothing artistic about it.

440
00:20:28,061 --> 00:20:31,381
Speaker 1: They're just being fitted for shoes or they're breaking in

441
00:20:31,422 --> 00:20:34,381
Speaker 1: the shoes or sewing on the ribbons. And I'm mesmerized.

442
00:20:34,542 --> 00:20:37,542
Speaker 2: Yeah, I watched people endlessly packing lunches. I've never put

443
00:20:37,621 --> 00:20:42,621
Speaker 2: adult packed lunches anyway. A substack called plum Pits, spelled

444
00:20:42,621 --> 00:20:45,182
Speaker 2: out brilliantly recently, will link to it. But the writer

445
00:20:45,302 --> 00:20:48,702
Speaker 2: set out on a path to help us unrot our

446
00:20:48,702 --> 00:20:51,462
Speaker 2: brains because her kind of point was there are lots

447
00:20:51,462 --> 00:20:54,502
Speaker 2: of people who maybe did degrees, only one at this table,

448
00:20:54,502 --> 00:20:57,581
Speaker 2: but have studied things in depth, have applied themselves talking

449
00:20:57,661 --> 00:20:59,941
Speaker 2: about are you trying hard? Have applied themselves with a

450
00:20:59,942 --> 00:21:02,661
Speaker 2: lot of agency and focus to certain things in their lives,

451
00:21:03,022 --> 00:21:05,302
Speaker 2: who now feel like they just can't because of the

452
00:21:05,302 --> 00:21:07,981
Speaker 2: brain rotten. She sets out a path in this to

453
00:21:08,621 --> 00:21:12,222
Speaker 2: remember who you were before the dullness set in which

454
00:21:12,262 --> 00:21:15,782
Speaker 2: I totally get what she means about that. So just

455
00:21:15,821 --> 00:21:18,101
Speaker 2: to warn you, there will be losses to doing this.

456
00:21:18,222 --> 00:21:21,462
Speaker 2: If you do set on this path to restore your

457
00:21:21,542 --> 00:21:24,421
Speaker 2: brain till it's pre rot status. You may not be

458
00:21:24,462 --> 00:21:27,142
Speaker 2: the first to know about the next Coldplay cheating meme.

459
00:21:28,022 --> 00:21:31,262
Speaker 2: You may not be fully across all the details of

460
00:21:31,462 --> 00:21:35,021
Speaker 2: I don't know Timothy shallow May's ladies. Jaunty Scarf like,

461
00:21:35,422 --> 00:21:40,862
Speaker 2: you have to hard sit at this table. But if

462
00:21:40,901 --> 00:21:43,422
Speaker 2: you're feeling a little bit sick about all the nonsense

463
00:21:43,462 --> 00:21:47,341
Speaker 2: you're inputting, here's her advice. She's like, don't quit all

464
00:21:47,381 --> 00:21:50,581
Speaker 2: those things, but just pause. She's like, for at least

465
00:21:50,661 --> 00:21:53,742
Speaker 2: three days, set yourself a challenge that whenever you feel

466
00:21:53,821 --> 00:21:57,821
Speaker 2: the itch to pick up and just mindlessly scroll, don't

467
00:21:58,061 --> 00:22:01,382
Speaker 2: push through that urge, just once, just twice, or set

468
00:22:01,381 --> 00:22:03,661
Speaker 2: aside some time when you're allowed to do it, but

469
00:22:03,661 --> 00:22:05,941
Speaker 2: you've got to push through the urge, like when you're

470
00:22:05,982 --> 00:22:08,141
Speaker 2: giving up smoking and you're like, I want a cigarette,

471
00:22:08,182 --> 00:22:10,461
Speaker 2: Well do something else. Yeah, I want a cigarette, Well

472
00:22:10,462 --> 00:22:14,381
Speaker 2: do something else. Like that, right, Let your dopamine system

473
00:22:14,542 --> 00:22:17,621
Speaker 2: stop firing like a broken vending machine, she writes, and

474
00:22:17,661 --> 00:22:21,182
Speaker 2: allow your prefrontal cort is to actually breathe. And while

475
00:22:21,182 --> 00:22:24,222
Speaker 2: you're at it, she had stop asking chat GPT. Every

476
00:22:24,262 --> 00:22:27,341
Speaker 2: little thing you know more than you think, Well don't

477
00:22:27,542 --> 00:22:28,222
Speaker 2: that's a good thing.

478
00:22:28,262 --> 00:22:30,981
Speaker 3: I actually agree with that. I don't think CHATJPT is

479
00:22:31,022 --> 00:22:31,861
Speaker 3: good for the brain.

480
00:22:31,982 --> 00:22:35,702
Speaker 2: Run Let yourself be bored Mia. You struggle with this,

481
00:22:36,302 --> 00:22:40,061
Speaker 2: let yourself sit in silence, she says, no phone, no music,

482
00:22:40,222 --> 00:22:44,302
Speaker 2: no stimulation, just ten or fifteen minutes of mental stillness

483
00:22:44,341 --> 00:22:46,982
Speaker 2: a day. She says. If you struggle with it a lot,

484
00:22:47,061 --> 00:22:49,661
Speaker 2: try what they call the Navy seal nap. If you

485
00:22:49,702 --> 00:22:52,461
Speaker 2: need structure to it, lie on the floor, feed up

486
00:22:52,462 --> 00:22:56,141
Speaker 2: on the couch, twenty minutes max twenty. It's not max,

487
00:22:56,422 --> 00:22:58,742
Speaker 2: so it doesn't have to be. It's not lazy. It's

488
00:22:58,861 --> 00:23:01,461
Speaker 2: neurological recovery. Oh I love that.

489
00:23:01,821 --> 00:23:02,262
Speaker 3: I love that.

490
00:23:02,502 --> 00:23:04,581
Speaker 2: Could we do that? No, you seal nap. Yeah, okay,

491
00:23:05,141 --> 00:23:08,342
Speaker 2: start writing. I mean we do write so, but like notes,

492
00:23:08,462 --> 00:23:12,021
Speaker 2: app paper word. She says, let yourself ramble, write something

493
00:23:12,141 --> 00:23:16,181
Speaker 2: ugly and tangled and undeveloped, not to produce or sound intelligent,

494
00:23:16,262 --> 00:23:21,022
Speaker 2: but to hear yourself. Again. Oh I love that. You

495
00:23:21,061 --> 00:23:23,102
Speaker 2: know how Liz Gilbert writes herself a letter from God

496
00:23:23,141 --> 00:23:25,141
Speaker 2: every morning. I don't know if you listen to Liz Gilbert,

497
00:23:25,222 --> 00:23:27,181
Speaker 2: if you listen to her content, you know this. I

498
00:23:27,262 --> 00:23:29,701
Speaker 2: used to hear her say that and be like, you

499
00:23:29,821 --> 00:23:34,021
Speaker 2: got like, I'm very confused. But that's what she's doing.

500
00:23:34,101 --> 00:23:37,621
Speaker 2: She's like, every morning, hear yourself. Like, if you're not

501
00:23:37,702 --> 00:23:39,302
Speaker 2: thinking this is going to be published, I'm going to

502
00:23:39,341 --> 00:23:40,141
Speaker 2: show this to someone.

503
00:23:40,222 --> 00:23:45,262
Speaker 3: This is like because we're quietening through all of these things,

504
00:23:45,381 --> 00:23:48,141
Speaker 3: the inner monologue, Like, I think that it starts to

505
00:23:48,182 --> 00:23:51,022
Speaker 3: become crowded with all the things you're inputting.

506
00:23:51,262 --> 00:23:53,981
Speaker 1: It's true because it's just social media is just and

507
00:23:54,022 --> 00:23:58,542
Speaker 1: the internet is everybody else's monologue outer monologue. And so

508
00:23:58,621 --> 00:24:00,982
Speaker 1: you're right, you do lose touch with well.

509
00:24:00,782 --> 00:24:04,621
Speaker 2: You start your monologue starts taking on their monologue. Learn

510
00:24:04,702 --> 00:24:07,821
Speaker 2: something that fascinates you, pick a topic, anything, become.

511
00:24:07,621 --> 00:24:10,462
Speaker 3: Obsessed Gwyneth, Yes, okay, take my PhD.

512
00:24:10,581 --> 00:24:14,982
Speaker 2: Yeah, and read, But she says, read with curiosity and

513
00:24:15,022 --> 00:24:17,061
Speaker 2: out of your comfort zone. So if it helps, if

514
00:24:17,061 --> 00:24:19,742
Speaker 2: you need a challenge, do something like five books in

515
00:24:19,782 --> 00:24:23,462
Speaker 2: two months, one fiction, one nonfiction, one reread, one wild card,

516
00:24:23,502 --> 00:24:26,061
Speaker 2: one deep dive into something niche. What do you think

517
00:24:26,101 --> 00:24:26,542
Speaker 2: about this?

518
00:24:27,022 --> 00:24:29,981
Speaker 3: I think a solution is reading. I think reading fixes everything.

519
00:24:30,141 --> 00:24:32,942
Speaker 2: I can't though well when this is the problem, Because

520
00:24:33,581 --> 00:24:35,981
Speaker 2: when you're suffering from brain rot, and this happens to

521
00:24:36,022 --> 00:24:38,662
Speaker 2: me often, one of my first signals that my brain

522
00:24:38,702 --> 00:24:40,302
Speaker 2: isn't happy is I can't read.

523
00:24:40,742 --> 00:24:42,782
Speaker 1: I try every book that you guys recommend. I just

524
00:24:42,821 --> 00:24:46,702
Speaker 1: started The Nightingale, I started The Safe Keep. Maybe stop

525
00:24:46,782 --> 00:24:50,181
Speaker 1: recommending you know what? Period? No, no, no.

526
00:24:49,141 --> 00:24:50,662
Speaker 2: No, how you do it, how you try and get

527
00:24:50,702 --> 00:24:54,302
Speaker 2: into them, kindle, But do you like set yourself a

528
00:24:54,462 --> 00:24:55,502
Speaker 2: like a time frame?

529
00:24:57,101 --> 00:24:59,821
Speaker 1: No. I'm always aware that the first few chapters are

530
00:24:59,821 --> 00:25:02,542
Speaker 1: going to be horrific of any book, because I just

531
00:25:02,621 --> 00:25:05,181
Speaker 1: hate that feeling. I love the feeling of being well,

532
00:25:05,222 --> 00:25:08,782
Speaker 1: I'm in it. That feeling just isn't coming anymore.

533
00:25:08,581 --> 00:25:14,821
Speaker 3: You know how we're talking about it? Actually trying, I

534
00:25:15,022 --> 00:25:18,581
Speaker 3: reckon that if you went to the gym and every

535
00:25:18,581 --> 00:25:20,501
Speaker 3: time you tried to do a squat you couldn't because

536
00:25:20,861 --> 00:25:24,142
Speaker 3: you were so weak, then you'd start at a lower

537
00:25:24,381 --> 00:25:26,381
Speaker 3: level or whatever, and you just work your way up right.

538
00:25:26,702 --> 00:25:29,782
Speaker 3: And I reckon that it is exactly like a muscle.

539
00:25:29,821 --> 00:25:32,742
Speaker 3: I completely relate. I've had this issue lately, the more

540
00:25:32,901 --> 00:25:35,182
Speaker 3: I fragment. There's a term that this person who spent

541
00:25:35,262 --> 00:25:37,782
Speaker 3: years at Apple and Microsoft, her name is Linda Stone,

542
00:25:37,821 --> 00:25:41,861
Speaker 3: she called it continuous partial attention. And I think what

543
00:25:42,302 --> 00:25:45,982
Speaker 3: reading demands, I'm like pretty much any other activity we do,

544
00:25:46,262 --> 00:25:49,741
Speaker 3: is total focus for a long period, and the feeling

545
00:25:49,782 --> 00:25:52,821
Speaker 3: of flow when you lose sense of time is just

546
00:25:52,861 --> 00:25:54,941
Speaker 3: a dream. Like that's the best, the best thing. But

547
00:25:54,982 --> 00:25:57,262
Speaker 3: in order to get there, I think you've got to

548
00:25:57,302 --> 00:26:00,061
Speaker 3: be Like, whether it's I'm going to read for ten

549
00:26:00,101 --> 00:26:03,381
Speaker 3: minutes or whatever, I think you've just got to keep

550
00:26:03,502 --> 00:26:05,461
Speaker 3: trying night after night. I found with a few of

551
00:26:05,502 --> 00:26:07,302
Speaker 3: those books that it took me a few goes to

552
00:26:07,302 --> 00:26:09,861
Speaker 3: sit down and do it. And in fact, I'm actually

553
00:26:09,861 --> 00:26:12,901
Speaker 3: gonna argue against the ten minutes because I think often

554
00:26:12,901 --> 00:26:14,061
Speaker 3: you've got to do longer.

555
00:26:14,302 --> 00:26:17,142
Speaker 2: Yeah, I actually think because ten minutes is a thing

556
00:26:17,141 --> 00:26:19,742
Speaker 2: that I did when I was first trying to break

557
00:26:19,821 --> 00:26:22,581
Speaker 2: out of one of those periods, and I'd be like,

558
00:26:22,621 --> 00:26:24,302
Speaker 2: I can commit to ten minutes. I'd set a timer

559
00:26:24,341 --> 00:26:27,262
Speaker 2: on my phone and I'd read, and then what you

560
00:26:27,381 --> 00:26:29,582
Speaker 2: want to do is the alarm goes off and you go, oh,

561
00:26:29,621 --> 00:26:32,702
Speaker 2: shut up, like yes, but sometimes it does take longer.

562
00:26:32,702 --> 00:26:34,141
Speaker 2: So the other thing I sometimes do, and I think

563
00:26:34,141 --> 00:26:36,502
Speaker 2: I've talked about this before, is like mark it out

564
00:26:36,502 --> 00:26:38,782
Speaker 2: as half an hour at some point in the day.

565
00:26:38,821 --> 00:26:40,981
Speaker 2: When I can do half an hour and go, that

566
00:26:41,141 --> 00:26:43,702
Speaker 2: is reading time. It's not I'm not stealing that time

567
00:26:43,742 --> 00:26:47,061
Speaker 2: from anything else. And again said a timer like it

568
00:26:47,141 --> 00:26:49,861
Speaker 2: sounds so silly because they sound like scientific ways to

569
00:26:49,901 --> 00:26:51,461
Speaker 2: get you to do something you don't want to do.

570
00:26:51,502 --> 00:26:54,701
Speaker 2: And we all love reading, but it's just a brain

571
00:26:55,502 --> 00:26:56,141
Speaker 2: another trick.

572
00:26:56,422 --> 00:26:59,621
Speaker 1: Because I have started reading on the weekend and I'm

573
00:26:59,742 --> 00:27:02,502
Speaker 1: really into it. Sally Hepworth's new book. It's called Mad

574
00:27:02,581 --> 00:27:06,381
Speaker 1: Maybel and two things. Interestingly, I'm reading it on paper.

575
00:27:06,581 --> 00:27:10,182
Speaker 2: Same that's helping, ye because.

576
00:27:09,901 --> 00:27:14,702
Speaker 1: Obviously if you read on an Internet enable device, you fucked. Yeah,

577
00:27:14,702 --> 00:27:16,942
Speaker 1: it's just no coming back from that. But the other

578
00:27:16,982 --> 00:27:19,181
Speaker 1: thing that I've learnt to do is put my phone

579
00:27:19,182 --> 00:27:21,821
Speaker 1: in a different room. Yes, if I can reach my phone,

580
00:27:21,821 --> 00:27:24,701
Speaker 1: it's all over, or any device, it's all over. But

581
00:27:24,821 --> 00:27:28,061
Speaker 1: if I'm there just with a book or my kindle

582
00:27:28,262 --> 00:27:29,341
Speaker 1: on airplane.

583
00:27:29,341 --> 00:27:31,022
Speaker 2: I have to do it. I'm writing, and so do

584
00:27:31,141 --> 00:27:34,141
Speaker 2: lots of other novelists that I thought were you know,

585
00:27:34,222 --> 00:27:37,182
Speaker 2: obviously they just slip into a flow state. Is put

586
00:27:37,182 --> 00:27:39,262
Speaker 2: the phone in a part of your house. You can't

587
00:27:39,302 --> 00:27:40,821
Speaker 2: hear it for a period of time. Like most of

588
00:27:40,861 --> 00:27:42,542
Speaker 2: us have responsibilities. You're going to have to go and

589
00:27:42,621 --> 00:27:45,661
Speaker 2: check it, you know. But again, you say, a timer

590
00:27:45,782 --> 00:27:48,982
Speaker 2: on something else for thirty minutes, photos elsewhere.

591
00:27:49,101 --> 00:27:52,141
Speaker 3: There's all this brain imaging about what happens when you

592
00:27:52,222 --> 00:27:57,061
Speaker 3: read and how you read the word tennis and you

593
00:27:57,182 --> 00:28:00,501
Speaker 3: visualize and actually parts of your body feel the tennis

594
00:28:00,782 --> 00:28:04,902
Speaker 3: right like it's and the way it fosters empathy and nuance,

595
00:28:05,141 --> 00:28:08,061
Speaker 3: and you dive back into a book. And how remarkable

596
00:28:08,141 --> 00:28:10,702
Speaker 3: is it that your brain can pick up I always

597
00:28:10,742 --> 00:28:12,542
Speaker 3: find this when I'm in a really good state, is

598
00:28:12,542 --> 00:28:14,461
Speaker 3: that I dive back in. I read one sentence and go,

599
00:28:14,782 --> 00:28:17,581
Speaker 3: WHOA where am I? Who is this person? And then boom,

600
00:28:17,621 --> 00:28:20,262
Speaker 3: you're back in. And the fact that your brain is

601
00:28:20,302 --> 00:28:24,542
Speaker 3: able to do that. The complexity, the holding all of

602
00:28:24,581 --> 00:28:26,861
Speaker 3: those things at once is the opposite to what the

603
00:28:26,901 --> 00:28:29,262
Speaker 3: culture forces us to do otherwise, And so I feel

604
00:28:29,262 --> 00:28:33,061
Speaker 3: like it's so rehabilitated, Like when I go on holidays,

605
00:28:33,101 --> 00:28:34,462
Speaker 3: That's what I want to do because I know it's

606
00:28:34,821 --> 00:28:38,022
Speaker 3: makes me feel like genuinely refreshed.

607
00:28:38,182 --> 00:28:41,102
Speaker 1: No one feels refreshed after scrolling the internet. No ever

608
00:28:41,982 --> 00:28:44,941
Speaker 1: after the break. It is recommendations time in time for

609
00:28:44,982 --> 00:28:47,222
Speaker 1: the weekend, and also some news from me.

610
00:28:47,942 --> 00:28:51,662
Speaker 2: One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday

611
00:28:51,702 --> 00:28:55,782
Speaker 2: and Thursday exclusively for Mamma MIAs subscribers. Follow the link

612
00:28:55,822 --> 00:28:57,542
Speaker 2: in the show notes to get us in your ears

613
00:28:57,822 --> 00:29:00,542
Speaker 2: five days a week. And a huge thank you to

614
00:29:00,742 --> 00:29:12,502
Speaker 2: all our current subscribers. Vibes ideas atmosphere, something casual, something fun.

615
00:29:13,022 --> 00:29:16,982
Speaker 1: This is my best recommendation. It's Friday, so we want

616
00:29:17,022 --> 00:29:19,822
Speaker 1: to help set up your weekend with our best recommendations.

617
00:29:19,862 --> 00:29:22,781
Speaker 1: I'm going to go first. It is another newsletter. We've

618
00:29:22,822 --> 00:29:25,382
Speaker 1: been recommending a lot of newsletters today. This one is

619
00:29:25,462 --> 00:29:28,942
Speaker 1: by friend of the pod and friend of us, Lucy Ormond.

620
00:29:29,222 --> 00:29:31,941
Speaker 1: We've recommended her substack before. It's called a year of healing.

621
00:29:32,702 --> 00:29:35,382
Speaker 1: She was diagnosed with breast cancer about a year ago

622
00:29:35,622 --> 00:29:40,142
Speaker 1: and she has dedicated this year after completing her treatment,

623
00:29:40,262 --> 00:29:44,142
Speaker 1: to just getting back on track. And she writes this

624
00:29:44,262 --> 00:29:47,942
Speaker 1: beautiful newsletter which we'll link to in the show notes.

625
00:29:47,982 --> 00:29:50,702
Speaker 1: But while you were away hole, she sent one out

626
00:29:50,982 --> 00:29:54,782
Speaker 1: about you, and it's about people responding to it in

627
00:29:54,862 --> 00:29:58,102
Speaker 1: all different ways to her news and people dropped over

628
00:29:58,182 --> 00:30:01,342
Speaker 1: Lasagna's and came to chemo with her. But you, as

629
00:30:01,382 --> 00:30:03,902
Speaker 1: one of her closest friends, couldn't do that. You lived

630
00:30:04,102 --> 00:30:05,982
Speaker 1: not only in a different city, but a different state.

631
00:30:06,782 --> 00:30:08,742
Speaker 1: So what you just started to do was to send

632
00:30:08,742 --> 00:30:11,902
Speaker 1: her these glimmers, like little photos every day. Can you

633
00:30:12,062 --> 00:30:14,182
Speaker 1: tell us how this came about? Because she talks about

634
00:30:14,222 --> 00:30:16,941
Speaker 1: you do this every day for a year, and she

635
00:30:17,062 --> 00:30:20,062
Speaker 1: shared in this newsletter some of the photos that you

636
00:30:20,182 --> 00:30:23,062
Speaker 1: sent and some that she sent back to you. How

637
00:30:23,062 --> 00:30:23,741
Speaker 1: did it happen?

638
00:30:24,742 --> 00:30:27,902
Speaker 2: It's funny because I feel like uncomfortable about this, obviously,

639
00:30:27,942 --> 00:30:30,582
Speaker 2: but also because it seems like such a little thing.

640
00:30:30,742 --> 00:30:34,262
Speaker 2: But I think that actually the sending of glimmers is

641
00:30:34,302 --> 00:30:38,022
Speaker 2: something really useful to do when you can't do anything else,

642
00:30:38,102 --> 00:30:40,701
Speaker 2: do you know what I mean? So a glimmer is

643
00:30:40,742 --> 00:30:43,102
Speaker 2: the opposite of a trigger. It's something in your day

644
00:30:43,142 --> 00:30:47,542
Speaker 2: that makes you feel good, grateful, happy, something sparkly in

645
00:30:47,582 --> 00:30:50,741
Speaker 2: your day, and being on the hunt for them is

646
00:30:50,782 --> 00:30:52,982
Speaker 2: supposed to be able to help lift your mood and

647
00:30:53,182 --> 00:30:56,021
Speaker 2: maybe even help your mental health loose. Because she's amazing

648
00:30:56,062 --> 00:30:57,862
Speaker 2: in many ways. She was going through the worst time

649
00:30:57,862 --> 00:30:59,662
Speaker 2: of her life, but she actually has a really good

650
00:30:59,661 --> 00:31:02,622
Speaker 2: support network. She has a very close family, she has

651
00:31:03,022 --> 00:31:07,502
Speaker 2: a strong network of really great, old, established friends. Everybody

652
00:31:07,622 --> 00:31:09,142
Speaker 2: was doing lots of things for her. Not that that

653
00:31:09,182 --> 00:31:12,662
Speaker 2: made it easy, of course, but it's certainly lightened the load.

654
00:31:13,222 --> 00:31:16,622
Speaker 2: But I'm far away. And also, if I'm incredibly honest,

655
00:31:17,142 --> 00:31:19,622
Speaker 2: I'm not the bringer A's and your friend. I don't

656
00:31:19,661 --> 00:31:22,062
Speaker 2: know how I'm wired or whatever, but I find that

657
00:31:22,182 --> 00:31:24,782
Speaker 2: kind of thing quite hard, and don't I find it

658
00:31:24,822 --> 00:31:27,742
Speaker 2: hard to know what the line is between intruding and helping,

659
00:31:27,902 --> 00:31:29,981
Speaker 2: and I don't know. I just struggle with that. So

660
00:31:30,102 --> 00:31:33,462
Speaker 2: for me selfishly, for me, the glimmers and I think

661
00:31:33,502 --> 00:31:35,822
Speaker 2: we've talked about them on a show. We talked about

662
00:31:35,822 --> 00:31:38,822
Speaker 2: the idea of looking for moments in your day that

663
00:31:38,942 --> 00:31:42,021
Speaker 2: made you happy, grateful. I mean, these are grateful as

664
00:31:42,062 --> 00:31:45,342
Speaker 2: to become a cheesy kind of word, I guess. So

665
00:31:45,462 --> 00:31:47,221
Speaker 2: I said to Luise, I'll send you you might want

666
00:31:47,262 --> 00:31:48,941
Speaker 2: to vomit. I think I wrote something like that, this

667
00:31:49,022 --> 00:31:50,501
Speaker 2: might want to make you vomit. But every day I'm

668
00:31:50,502 --> 00:31:52,261
Speaker 2: going to send you a glimmer and you don't have

669
00:31:52,302 --> 00:31:53,742
Speaker 2: to send one back, but you can if you want.

670
00:31:53,942 --> 00:31:56,661
Speaker 2: And so what I did is for every day in

671
00:31:56,702 --> 00:31:58,142
Speaker 2: my day, I'd have to look for one thing to

672
00:31:58,142 --> 00:32:00,542
Speaker 2: send a picture to for Lucy. And it might be

673
00:32:01,462 --> 00:32:03,862
Speaker 2: from my morning walk. It might be a particularly good

674
00:32:03,942 --> 00:32:06,542
Speaker 2: cup of tea. It might be a cucumber I'd grown

675
00:32:06,542 --> 00:32:08,342
Speaker 2: in my garden. It might be my dog. It might

676
00:32:08,382 --> 00:32:10,582
Speaker 2: be this show. It might be new lipstick. It might

677
00:32:10,622 --> 00:32:13,461
Speaker 2: be a book I was reading, but one thing in

678
00:32:13,542 --> 00:32:15,702
Speaker 2: every day that was a bright spot.

679
00:32:15,782 --> 00:32:18,702
Speaker 1: Did it feel like pressure to find something every day?

680
00:32:18,982 --> 00:32:23,102
Speaker 2: Well, what it felt like after a while is it

681
00:32:23,142 --> 00:32:24,982
Speaker 2: was as good for me as it was for Loose,

682
00:32:25,262 --> 00:32:30,661
Speaker 2: because I trained myself to look every day for something like,

683
00:32:30,742 --> 00:32:34,542
Speaker 2: without wanting to sound really cheesy, but something wonderful, something

684
00:32:34,661 --> 00:32:38,422
Speaker 2: very ordinary but wonderful. And some days are harder than others,

685
00:32:38,422 --> 00:32:40,261
Speaker 2: as we all know, to find a glimmer in right,

686
00:32:40,302 --> 00:32:42,782
Speaker 2: Because some days are shit or some days it's just boring.

687
00:32:42,862 --> 00:32:45,382
Speaker 1: Did you store them like if you saw three glimmers

688
00:32:45,382 --> 00:32:45,822
Speaker 1: in a day?

689
00:32:46,582 --> 00:32:49,622
Speaker 2: No, the rules were me. I had to be from

690
00:32:49,661 --> 00:32:50,022
Speaker 2: the day.

691
00:32:50,102 --> 00:32:51,221
Speaker 1: I'm trying to gain the system.

692
00:32:51,502 --> 00:32:52,942
Speaker 2: Yeah, it had to be from the day.

693
00:32:53,102 --> 00:32:54,862
Speaker 1: So did you have to explain the glimmo?

694
00:32:55,102 --> 00:32:57,662
Speaker 2: So some days I did, some days I exclaimed the glimmer.

695
00:32:57,902 --> 00:33:00,701
Speaker 2: But some days it's literally just the photo with the

696
00:33:00,702 --> 00:33:03,622
Speaker 2: word glimmer. And then the beauty of this for anyone

697
00:33:03,661 --> 00:33:05,181
Speaker 2: who's thinking of doing it for someone who's going through

698
00:33:05,182 --> 00:33:07,342
Speaker 2: a hard time. We all want to be in touch

699
00:33:07,382 --> 00:33:09,661
Speaker 2: with our friends when they're suffering, but it can act

700
00:33:09,862 --> 00:33:12,062
Speaker 2: be a big burden for them to have to constantly

701
00:33:12,142 --> 00:33:17,462
Speaker 2: update everybody, so like asking how are you today, how's

702
00:33:17,502 --> 00:33:19,462
Speaker 2: the treatment going, how do you feel or you feel

703
00:33:19,622 --> 00:33:20,182
Speaker 2: it well?

704
00:33:20,262 --> 00:33:20,862
Speaker 1: What can I do?

705
00:33:20,982 --> 00:33:23,302
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a burden, right. Luce had a lot going on,

706
00:33:23,342 --> 00:33:26,542
Speaker 2: and she'd so this is an offering without an expectation

707
00:33:26,702 --> 00:33:32,022
Speaker 2: of receiving, although Lucy did frequently send them back. So

708
00:33:32,182 --> 00:33:34,661
Speaker 2: then we would go a period of time where we

709
00:33:34,661 --> 00:33:36,542
Speaker 2: were like in a volley of sending them back and forward,

710
00:33:36,582 --> 00:33:38,302
Speaker 2: and I'd know that Lucy was in quite a good space.

711
00:33:38,342 --> 00:33:40,262
Speaker 2: And then there'd be a few days where I'd send

712
00:33:40,742 --> 00:33:42,462
Speaker 2: a glimmer and not get one back, and I'd be like,

713
00:33:43,262 --> 00:33:46,502
Speaker 2: so then I might be like, okay, But I think

714
00:33:46,502 --> 00:33:48,701
Speaker 2: that's the beauty of it is it doesn't place expectation,

715
00:33:48,862 --> 00:33:51,742
Speaker 2: and that's an important thing. Anyway, I did do it

716
00:33:52,022 --> 00:33:54,342
Speaker 2: every day, I think I actually I think she was

717
00:33:54,382 --> 00:33:56,461
Speaker 2: generous to me in that newsletter because I think I

718
00:33:56,542 --> 00:33:58,661
Speaker 2: missed two days. I think it was three hundred and

719
00:33:58,742 --> 00:34:02,142
Speaker 2: sixty three pictures. But some days it's true that I

720
00:34:02,142 --> 00:34:03,902
Speaker 2: would sit up and bed and go, shit, I haven't

721
00:34:03,942 --> 00:34:08,102
Speaker 2: done it, yeah, and scroll my camera role and very

722
00:34:08,142 --> 00:34:10,902
Speaker 2: often i'd taken it. I'd just had center in the moment.

723
00:34:10,661 --> 00:34:12,982
Speaker 1: So you wouldn't just do a quick selfie of your boobs,

724
00:34:12,982 --> 00:34:13,901
Speaker 1: maybe like.

725
00:34:15,382 --> 00:34:17,822
Speaker 2: Look at this handsome man I'm sleeping next.

726
00:34:18,382 --> 00:34:20,341
Speaker 1: I love that. It reminded me that I have a

727
00:34:20,382 --> 00:34:24,382
Speaker 1: friend who went through cancer and she set up a

728
00:34:24,382 --> 00:34:27,982
Speaker 1: group chat where she posted glimmers, and just everybody in

729
00:34:28,022 --> 00:34:30,821
Speaker 1: the chat just posted their glimmers, And as you say,

730
00:34:30,862 --> 00:34:33,502
Speaker 1: it was just this stream of it forced her to

731
00:34:33,502 --> 00:34:36,622
Speaker 1: look for something bright in her day. And other people,

732
00:34:36,822 --> 00:34:39,622
Speaker 1: could you know, do them when they when they felt

733
00:34:39,661 --> 00:34:41,862
Speaker 1: them and it was just like the opposite of doom scrolling.

734
00:34:42,181 --> 00:34:44,261
Speaker 2: Yes, I love it. And the thing is is we did.

735
00:34:44,622 --> 00:34:46,982
Speaker 2: When I look back through that chat, because obviously that's

736
00:34:47,022 --> 00:34:49,661
Speaker 2: our text history, and some of the ones she'd put

737
00:34:49,701 --> 00:34:52,821
Speaker 2: in the newsletter, I'd forgotten all about them, and that

738
00:34:52,942 --> 00:34:56,102
Speaker 2: was lovely too. Like you know, it's cheesy, but writing

739
00:34:56,102 --> 00:34:59,622
Speaker 2: a gratitude journalism for everybody, but like taking a minute

740
00:34:59,661 --> 00:35:01,821
Speaker 2: every day to think of one good thing is.

741
00:35:02,142 --> 00:35:04,382
Speaker 1: That's so beautiful. We'll put a link to that substack

742
00:35:04,422 --> 00:35:06,582
Speaker 1: in our show notes. It's gorgeous. And the other thing

743
00:35:06,582 --> 00:35:10,022
Speaker 1: we'll put a link to is the new substack launched,

744
00:35:10,062 --> 00:35:11,702
Speaker 1: which is wholly out loud.

745
00:35:12,221 --> 00:35:14,502
Speaker 3: Well we did say that, Mama outloud.

746
00:35:14,502 --> 00:35:15,502
Speaker 1: Our substack was.

747
00:35:15,622 --> 00:35:17,782
Speaker 3: We were putting it on hiatus while we worked out.

748
00:35:17,622 --> 00:35:21,062
Speaker 1: What to do with it, renovator and Holly freening it.

749
00:35:21,622 --> 00:35:24,382
Speaker 2: She gave a friend, I've renovated that instead of my bathroom.

750
00:35:24,462 --> 00:35:25,821
Speaker 2: She took it over and.

751
00:35:25,741 --> 00:35:28,821
Speaker 3: She's writing on and so we'll have a link in

752
00:35:28,862 --> 00:35:32,102
Speaker 3: our show notes. Goes out every week and you get

753
00:35:32,142 --> 00:35:33,342
Speaker 3: to read Holly's writing, which.

754
00:35:33,142 --> 00:35:35,301
Speaker 2: Is so some days, it will be some weeks it'll

755
00:35:35,342 --> 00:35:37,261
Speaker 2: be a proper essay. Some days it might be a

756
00:35:37,302 --> 00:35:40,022
Speaker 2: few little things. There'll be some scarleous gossip in there

757
00:35:40,062 --> 00:35:42,502
Speaker 2: every week, maybe some glimmers, maybe a couple of glimmers.

758
00:35:42,502 --> 00:35:42,942
Speaker 2: You never know.

759
00:35:43,062 --> 00:35:43,422
Speaker 1: Why not.

760
00:35:43,781 --> 00:35:47,022
Speaker 3: I have two books to recommend. The first is I

761
00:35:47,261 --> 00:35:49,941
Speaker 3: just read the latest Lisa Jewel, which I think came

762
00:35:49,942 --> 00:35:50,542
Speaker 3: out this month.

763
00:35:50,741 --> 00:35:52,301
Speaker 1: That's always good to get out of a writing right,

764
00:35:52,462 --> 00:35:55,021
Speaker 1: really good, although I did read a couple of bad ones.

765
00:35:55,261 --> 00:35:56,701
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, this is She's back.

766
00:35:56,822 --> 00:35:57,262
Speaker 1: Okay.

767
00:35:57,661 --> 00:36:00,342
Speaker 3: It's called Don't Let Him In. And this is a blurb.

768
00:36:00,422 --> 00:36:03,261
Speaker 3: It says he's the perfect man. He says he loves you.

769
00:36:03,261 --> 00:36:06,062
Speaker 3: You think he might even be made for you. Before long,

770
00:36:06,102 --> 00:36:08,022
Speaker 3: he's moved into your house and into your heart, and

771
00:36:08,062 --> 00:36:10,181
Speaker 3: then he leaves for days at a time you don't

772
00:36:10,181 --> 00:36:11,861
Speaker 3: know where he's gone or who is with, and you

773
00:36:11,982 --> 00:36:14,661
Speaker 3: realize if you looked back, you'd say to yourself, don't

774
00:36:14,701 --> 00:36:18,381
Speaker 3: let him in. And so it's about it follows kind

775
00:36:18,422 --> 00:36:21,142
Speaker 3: of different relationships she has. She is the best character

776
00:36:21,261 --> 00:36:25,902
Speaker 3: to watch the story unfold from its different perspectives. The

777
00:36:25,902 --> 00:36:30,461
Speaker 3: way she's drawn this man is just genius. Loved it

778
00:36:30,622 --> 00:36:34,742
Speaker 3: really pacy and satisfying. And again, like I don't persevere

779
00:36:34,781 --> 00:36:38,022
Speaker 3: with books I don't like, So this one, I how.

780
00:36:37,862 --> 00:36:39,821
Speaker 2: Long do you give a book before you give up?

781
00:36:39,862 --> 00:36:40,301
Speaker 2: Both of you.

782
00:36:40,622 --> 00:36:43,461
Speaker 3: I recently got three quarters of all way through a book,

783
00:36:43,542 --> 00:36:46,102
Speaker 3: ye went, I'm just not spending another minute on this.

784
00:36:47,062 --> 00:36:49,341
Speaker 3: I do not care how this ends. I kept doing

785
00:36:49,342 --> 00:36:51,502
Speaker 3: that actually with a few really big ones that have

786
00:36:51,542 --> 00:36:54,622
Speaker 3: come out lately that everyone else loves, and I've just gone, nah,

787
00:36:54,741 --> 00:36:55,142
Speaker 3: not for me.

788
00:36:55,422 --> 00:36:56,261
Speaker 2: How long do you give it?

789
00:36:56,422 --> 00:36:58,342
Speaker 1: Well? I keep trying to read the books that you

790
00:36:59,022 --> 00:37:01,622
Speaker 1: guys give me, and then I'm like, I've got to

791
00:37:01,701 --> 00:37:04,542
Speaker 1: keep going. I've got to keep going. It really depends,

792
00:37:04,781 --> 00:37:06,181
Speaker 1: you know. I always give it more than a couple

793
00:37:06,221 --> 00:37:09,742
Speaker 1: of chapters. But I also just forget what i'm reading.

794
00:37:09,781 --> 00:37:11,421
Speaker 1: I think, as I've got a kindle and I'm sort

795
00:37:11,422 --> 00:37:14,062
Speaker 1: of like reading, and then I forget, and then I've

796
00:37:14,342 --> 00:37:16,822
Speaker 1: I've got a million half started books. What about you?

797
00:37:17,582 --> 00:37:19,982
Speaker 2: Yeah? Same. It takes a lot for me to abandon

798
00:37:20,022 --> 00:37:24,022
Speaker 2: a book, although increasingly less. It's interesting like I used

799
00:37:24,062 --> 00:37:25,502
Speaker 2: to be like, no, I've started, so I have to

800
00:37:25,542 --> 00:37:28,822
Speaker 2: finish it, But now I'm more likely to give it away.

801
00:37:28,822 --> 00:37:30,622
Speaker 2: But then, you know, I'm a writer, and I hate

802
00:37:30,622 --> 00:37:32,502
Speaker 2: the idea of someone give it up on your book.

803
00:37:32,542 --> 00:37:34,502
Speaker 3: So I'm like, oh, yeah, you know what, if I've

804
00:37:34,542 --> 00:37:36,142
Speaker 3: done half your book and you've not got me in,

805
00:37:36,302 --> 00:37:39,261
Speaker 3: then I feel my fault on you problem and a

806
00:37:39,302 --> 00:37:41,942
Speaker 3: bonus recommendation Nicole Madigan. She is a writer at My

807
00:37:42,062 --> 00:37:45,261
Speaker 3: Maya and she has published her second book literally this week.

808
00:37:45,422 --> 00:37:47,302
Speaker 1: She wrote an amazing book about being stalked.

809
00:37:47,422 --> 00:37:50,821
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, This one is called Torn. It's nonfiction and

810
00:37:50,862 --> 00:37:53,701
Speaker 3: it follows four women who are trying to make the

811
00:37:53,741 --> 00:37:57,741
Speaker 3: decision about whether they stay in an unhappy relationship or

812
00:37:57,781 --> 00:38:01,821
Speaker 3: whether they leave. And it's about addiction and it's about infidelity.

813
00:38:02,142 --> 00:38:03,902
Speaker 1: Did you say it's nonfiction?

814
00:38:04,142 --> 00:38:08,182
Speaker 3: So they're true stories. It's about the loneliness of being

815
00:38:08,462 --> 00:38:10,701
Speaker 3: in a relationship and thinking this isn't right and I

816
00:38:10,741 --> 00:38:12,622
Speaker 3: don't know what I'm going to do. It's going to

817
00:38:12,622 --> 00:38:14,502
Speaker 3: speak to a lot of out louders where they are

818
00:38:14,661 --> 00:38:17,181
Speaker 3: right now. So that is available now link in our

819
00:38:17,181 --> 00:38:17,702
Speaker 3: show notes.

820
00:38:18,102 --> 00:38:20,302
Speaker 2: I'm going to recommend books too, which I think, given

821
00:38:20,342 --> 00:38:22,502
Speaker 2: what we were talking about, this is relevant and also

822
00:38:22,542 --> 00:38:24,582
Speaker 2: it's now given me the point of this week's newsletter,

823
00:38:24,661 --> 00:38:28,381
Speaker 2: right books, We'll put some of those books that we've

824
00:38:28,422 --> 00:38:30,181
Speaker 2: out loud as have said get them out of reading

825
00:38:30,302 --> 00:38:32,822
Speaker 2: ruts in there because you asked that question before, because

826
00:38:32,902 --> 00:38:34,422
Speaker 2: it seems to be the theme of today's show a

827
00:38:34,422 --> 00:38:36,582
Speaker 2: little bit. But there are two new Aussie fiction books

828
00:38:36,741 --> 00:38:38,382
Speaker 2: that I want to give a shout out to because

829
00:38:38,701 --> 00:38:41,781
Speaker 2: we have some incredible Australian fiction writers, we really do.

830
00:38:41,942 --> 00:38:44,142
Speaker 2: And some of them are very famous and you know

831
00:38:44,181 --> 00:38:46,382
Speaker 2: their names and some not so much. But the debut

832
00:38:46,422 --> 00:38:48,981
Speaker 2: novel from Susan Do is out this week. It's called

833
00:38:49,022 --> 00:38:51,182
Speaker 2: The Golden Sister. And you might have seen it around.

834
00:38:51,221 --> 00:38:55,262
Speaker 2: Because Susan Do is married to Arn dou and because

835
00:38:55,302 --> 00:38:58,741
Speaker 2: he is actually one of Australia's most successful writers as

836
00:38:58,781 --> 00:39:01,861
Speaker 2: well as being a painter and a TV personality, people

837
00:39:01,902 --> 00:39:04,181
Speaker 2: are very interested in the idea that, oh, like, he's

838
00:39:04,181 --> 00:39:05,462
Speaker 2: not the only writer in the family.

839
00:39:05,542 --> 00:39:07,301
Speaker 3: Yeah, And she's often written with him.

840
00:39:07,342 --> 00:39:10,781
Speaker 2: She has helped him turn his very successful memoi The

841
00:39:10,781 --> 00:39:14,181
Speaker 2: Happiest Refugee into a children's book, and she's worked in

842
00:39:14,221 --> 00:39:17,022
Speaker 2: schools and everything. But this is her first adult novel

843
00:39:17,142 --> 00:39:18,661
Speaker 2: and so I think a lot of people are kind

844
00:39:18,661 --> 00:39:22,102
Speaker 2: of interested in, like, oh, anyway, it's really really good.

845
00:39:22,142 --> 00:39:24,582
Speaker 2: It's called The Golden Sister and it's about it's not what.

846
00:39:25,022 --> 00:39:27,381
Speaker 2: I don't know what I expected exactly, because it's kind

847
00:39:27,382 --> 00:39:30,341
Speaker 2: of a small town story. But it's not in any

848
00:39:30,382 --> 00:39:33,262
Speaker 2: way twee or cheesy. It's actually quite dark in places.

849
00:39:33,302 --> 00:39:36,421
Speaker 2: But it's about a woman, a young woman who's lost

850
00:39:36,422 --> 00:39:38,022
Speaker 2: her sister's.

851
00:39:37,342 --> 00:39:38,421
Speaker 3: Quite isn't it her twin?

852
00:39:38,781 --> 00:39:43,342
Speaker 2: Yes? Yeah, in quite dark circumstances, and she becomes obsessed

853
00:39:43,382 --> 00:39:46,301
Speaker 2: with what happened, which is, you know, in some way

854
00:39:46,302 --> 00:39:48,582
Speaker 2: it sounds like a familiar trope, but the places it

855
00:39:48,622 --> 00:39:52,182
Speaker 2: takes her is really interesting. So this young woman becomes

856
00:39:52,221 --> 00:39:54,382
Speaker 2: obsessed with this to a point that she gets herself

857
00:39:54,422 --> 00:39:58,341
Speaker 2: involved in a very unsuitable relationship. She has all these

858
00:39:58,462 --> 00:40:01,382
Speaker 2: interesting kind of clashes with the people at work. It

859
00:40:01,462 --> 00:40:04,142
Speaker 2: paints a very good picture about the claustrophobic nature of

860
00:40:04,142 --> 00:40:07,341
Speaker 2: a smallish town. It's really good. It's called The Golden Sister,

861
00:40:07,382 --> 00:40:09,421
Speaker 2: and I found that really interesting. And the other one

862
00:40:09,781 --> 00:40:11,862
Speaker 2: is by Jess Stepman. It's called Your Friend of Mine.

863
00:40:11,862 --> 00:40:14,781
Speaker 2: Now we have loved her books in the past. She

864
00:40:14,902 --> 00:40:18,582
Speaker 2: is a beautiful writer. She wrote How to Be Second Best.

865
00:40:18,701 --> 00:40:19,622
Speaker 1: Oh, I love that book.

866
00:40:19,661 --> 00:40:21,461
Speaker 2: The one with the cake. Everyone else says the one

867
00:40:21,462 --> 00:40:24,422
Speaker 2: with the cake on the and others she's a beautiful,

868
00:40:24,422 --> 00:40:27,181
Speaker 2: beautiful writer. Her latest one's called Your Friend of Mine

869
00:40:27,302 --> 00:40:30,181
Speaker 2: and it's a very it's quite a gentle book, but

870
00:40:30,221 --> 00:40:31,701
Speaker 2: it turns out to have a lot to say. It's

871
00:40:31,701 --> 00:40:34,542
Speaker 2: really about friendship and about the different versions of yourself

872
00:40:34,582 --> 00:40:36,741
Speaker 2: over the years. It starts with this young woman who

873
00:40:36,822 --> 00:40:39,861
Speaker 2: gets a letter out of the blue that appears to

874
00:40:39,862 --> 00:40:42,502
Speaker 2: be from her best friend who died twenty years before.

875
00:40:42,701 --> 00:40:46,182
Speaker 2: Oh wow, it's really good. They're both great Aussie fiction books.

876
00:40:46,422 --> 00:40:48,901
Speaker 2: So that was The Golden Sister by Suzann Do and

877
00:40:48,982 --> 00:40:51,062
Speaker 2: Your Friend of Mine by Jessica Deptman, and they're both

878
00:40:51,102 --> 00:40:51,821
Speaker 2: available now.

879
00:40:52,062 --> 00:40:55,301
Speaker 1: Before we go, I have some news which is not

880
00:40:55,382 --> 00:40:57,582
Speaker 1: news to anyone working on the show. Bet he's going

881
00:40:57,622 --> 00:41:00,062
Speaker 1: to be newsed to some out lauders. I am taking

882
00:41:00,382 --> 00:41:03,261
Speaker 1: a few months off the show. I'm taking a kind

883
00:41:03,261 --> 00:41:06,661
Speaker 1: of I guess it's long service leave because I have

884
00:41:06,741 --> 00:41:09,701
Speaker 1: been doing the show for more than ten years now.

885
00:41:09,822 --> 00:41:13,342
Speaker 1: It started as a weekly show, it's now a daily show.

886
00:41:14,022 --> 00:41:17,022
Speaker 1: During that time, that hasn't even been my day job.

887
00:41:17,062 --> 00:41:19,862
Speaker 1: My day job, obviously has been being the co founder

888
00:41:19,902 --> 00:41:24,062
Speaker 1: of Mauma Maa and all the things that that involves

889
00:41:24,142 --> 00:41:29,062
Speaker 1: in helping to run a business, and I've not taken

890
00:41:29,502 --> 00:41:32,862
Speaker 1: any time off. I've co founded Mamma Maa maybe eighteen

891
00:41:33,062 --> 00:41:36,982
Speaker 1: nineteen years ago, almost twenty years ago now, and I

892
00:41:37,022 --> 00:41:39,421
Speaker 1: didn't take any time off. I think I took two

893
00:41:39,462 --> 00:41:44,062
Speaker 1: weeks off when I had my youngest child, and I've

894
00:41:44,102 --> 00:41:48,102
Speaker 1: obviously taken holidays. But I'm pretty well known to be

895
00:41:48,302 --> 00:41:48,702
Speaker 1: a bit.

896
00:41:48,582 --> 00:41:50,862
Speaker 3: Of a workaholic and not so good at holidays.

897
00:41:51,062 --> 00:41:54,181
Speaker 1: Not so good at holidays, and part of that I've been,

898
00:41:54,462 --> 00:41:56,182
Speaker 1: you know, thinking about that a lot. It'll be interesting

899
00:41:56,181 --> 00:41:58,821
Speaker 1: to see how the next few months go, because I mean,

900
00:41:58,822 --> 00:42:01,381
Speaker 1: I'm still going to be around, but part of it

901
00:42:01,462 --> 00:42:03,901
Speaker 1: is that I'm not taken leave because I haven't been

902
00:42:03,942 --> 00:42:08,022
Speaker 1: able to out Louders who run their own businesses will

903
00:42:08,062 --> 00:42:11,102
Speaker 1: know that when you work for your self, you don't

904
00:42:11,102 --> 00:42:14,102
Speaker 1: get holidays, you don't really get weekends all the time.

905
00:42:14,261 --> 00:42:19,821
Speaker 1: And I haven't ever felt confident to take this much

906
00:42:19,862 --> 00:42:22,382
Speaker 1: time off I do now. I mean, you guys and

907
00:42:22,502 --> 00:42:25,221
Speaker 1: the show and our team, you know, led by our

908
00:42:25,221 --> 00:42:27,982
Speaker 1: wonderful Ruth and everybody that works on out loud and

909
00:42:28,181 --> 00:42:31,701
Speaker 1: the wider business here at Mama Mea. It's never had

910
00:42:31,701 --> 00:42:33,861
Speaker 1: a better team. You know, there's like one hundred and

911
00:42:33,862 --> 00:42:37,142
Speaker 1: fifty odd people working here, and we've got an incredible

912
00:42:37,181 --> 00:42:41,542
Speaker 1: CEO and executive team, and I feel like maybe I

913
00:42:41,582 --> 00:42:46,502
Speaker 1: can step back for a little bit and also creatively,

914
00:42:47,582 --> 00:42:53,781
Speaker 1: I feel like what you say, Jesse about creativity. When

915
00:42:53,822 --> 00:42:56,701
Speaker 1: you run a business, you're part of a group project,

916
00:42:56,942 --> 00:42:58,422
Speaker 1: and you're part of a team, and you have to

917
00:42:58,582 --> 00:43:01,381
Speaker 1: lead a team or work within a team. And then

918
00:43:01,422 --> 00:43:04,022
Speaker 1: this show is my favorite thing that I do, but

919
00:43:04,142 --> 00:43:07,062
Speaker 1: it is a team. And working on Strife that was

920
00:43:07,102 --> 00:43:10,142
Speaker 1: a team, and there are some things that I want

921
00:43:10,181 --> 00:43:11,821
Speaker 1: to do. Even when I was doing No Filter, that

922
00:43:11,862 --> 00:43:13,341
Speaker 1: was still a team. It was a little bit more me,

923
00:43:13,422 --> 00:43:16,901
Speaker 1: but it was still a team. And I'm feeling that's

924
00:43:17,062 --> 00:43:22,102
Speaker 1: itch to just go a bit quiet and maybe work

925
00:43:22,142 --> 00:43:24,261
Speaker 1: on some things of my own as part of my

926
00:43:24,422 --> 00:43:27,741
Speaker 1: andmea still but not being a team a little bit.

927
00:43:27,982 --> 00:43:28,181
Speaker 1: You know.

928
00:43:28,221 --> 00:43:32,221
Speaker 3: You posted in the out Louders about this decision, and

929
00:43:32,661 --> 00:43:36,102
Speaker 3: one thing that keeps coming up in the out Louders

930
00:43:36,142 --> 00:43:39,102
Speaker 3: recently is women who are feeling burnt out, Like, are

931
00:43:39,181 --> 00:43:40,781
Speaker 3: you just feeling beyond burnt out?

932
00:43:40,982 --> 00:43:43,821
Speaker 1: Yeah? Look, I didn't really want to say it, but

933
00:43:43,862 --> 00:43:46,062
Speaker 1: it's been interesting my voice carking.

934
00:43:45,701 --> 00:43:49,542
Speaker 3: It for the last time Loud have picked psychosomatic.

935
00:43:49,942 --> 00:43:52,382
Speaker 2: Yeah. When you put the news in the group, quite

936
00:43:52,382 --> 00:43:53,981
Speaker 2: a few of them said what I wanted to say

937
00:43:53,982 --> 00:43:56,582
Speaker 2: when you were talking about your voice was you need

938
00:43:56,622 --> 00:43:57,102
Speaker 2: to rest.

939
00:43:57,382 --> 00:43:58,941
Speaker 1: Yeah, And a lot of them have said they've heard

940
00:43:58,982 --> 00:44:01,981
Speaker 1: that I've sounded a bit tired. The last few couple

941
00:44:02,022 --> 00:44:05,741
Speaker 1: of years particularly have been very challenging for a lot

942
00:44:05,781 --> 00:44:08,182
Speaker 1: of people. But there's been a lot going on behind

943
00:44:08,221 --> 00:44:10,181
Speaker 1: the scenes as well, and there's been a lot of

944
00:44:10,542 --> 00:44:13,342
Speaker 1: online harassment and various things that I don't want to

945
00:44:13,382 --> 00:44:17,142
Speaker 1: talk about. But it's a lot of pressure. There's a

946
00:44:17,181 --> 00:44:20,181
Speaker 1: lot of pressure being the face of this business and

947
00:44:20,822 --> 00:44:25,422
Speaker 1: a lot of pressure being the one who it's my

948
00:44:25,582 --> 00:44:28,861
Speaker 1: face on the door, and when things go wrong and

949
00:44:29,142 --> 00:44:33,301
Speaker 1: we employ wonderful people who are all human as I am,

950
00:44:33,462 --> 00:44:35,861
Speaker 1: and humans make mistakes, as I certainly do.

951
00:44:36,862 --> 00:44:39,741
Speaker 3: But when yeah, you know we've had this before, I've

952
00:44:39,781 --> 00:44:43,542
Speaker 3: made a mistake and it's not my face, it's there's

953
00:44:43,582 --> 00:44:46,741
Speaker 3: someone else's face, and you own the words or the

954
00:44:46,822 --> 00:44:50,382
Speaker 3: mistakes or the perceived mistakes, I can't imagine that level

955
00:44:50,462 --> 00:44:53,301
Speaker 3: of pressure. And I feel as though there's a level

956
00:44:53,302 --> 00:44:56,102
Speaker 3: of burnout that I've certainly experienced in my career where

957
00:44:56,142 --> 00:45:00,902
Speaker 3: I've been able to rest, but to watch what happens

958
00:45:00,982 --> 00:45:03,462
Speaker 3: when you work through that burnout, which I think is

959
00:45:03,502 --> 00:45:05,942
Speaker 3: actually really relatable to a lot of business owners and

960
00:45:05,982 --> 00:45:07,301
Speaker 3: actually to a lot of women.

961
00:45:07,221 --> 00:45:09,422
Speaker 1: And mothers and and all sorts of people care is

962
00:45:10,181 --> 00:45:11,821
Speaker 1: and you've done it lots of time. I don't have

963
00:45:11,862 --> 00:45:12,861
Speaker 1: a choice yet, Like.

964
00:45:12,902 --> 00:45:14,902
Speaker 2: You've worked through burnout. I mean I've worked with you

965
00:45:14,942 --> 00:45:17,701
Speaker 2: a decade. You've worked through burnout many times. And I know,

966
00:45:18,942 --> 00:45:21,781
Speaker 2: I know you're not going to go and go to

967
00:45:22,022 --> 00:45:23,701
Speaker 2: the map.

968
00:45:24,942 --> 00:45:28,422
Speaker 3: For three months of like like on the floor, she's going,

969
00:45:29,142 --> 00:45:30,261
Speaker 3: she's gonna get pissed off.

970
00:45:31,142 --> 00:45:36,022
Speaker 2: But can you do you have any kind of roadmap

971
00:45:36,102 --> 00:45:38,501
Speaker 2: for what this might look like? Because as you say,

972
00:45:38,781 --> 00:45:41,261
Speaker 2: you a can't and we don't necessarily want to like

973
00:45:41,382 --> 00:45:45,102
Speaker 2: completely remove yourself from everything. But which bits of yourself

974
00:45:45,142 --> 00:45:47,261
Speaker 2: do you think you can replenish?

975
00:45:47,382 --> 00:45:49,301
Speaker 1: A great question? And we're going to find out. I mean,

976
00:45:49,302 --> 00:45:51,622
Speaker 1: I think that the business and the show can very

977
00:45:51,661 --> 00:45:53,781
Speaker 1: much live without me. We're going to find out if

978
00:45:53,781 --> 00:45:56,942
Speaker 1: I can live without it and them and you guys,

979
00:45:57,181 --> 00:45:59,622
Speaker 1: we can live without you, But it won't be can

980
00:45:59,661 --> 00:46:00,181
Speaker 1: you don't know?

981
00:46:00,542 --> 00:46:03,102
Speaker 3: That's what's been hard for us being like, yeah, no, man,

982
00:46:03,181 --> 00:46:05,062
Speaker 3: we know you have to like low company mental health,

983
00:46:05,102 --> 00:46:07,502
Speaker 3: but like from a selfish perspective, we actually really like

984
00:46:07,542 --> 00:46:08,342
Speaker 3: it being on the show.

985
00:46:08,701 --> 00:46:12,422
Speaker 1: There's also sense. And I'll be really honest, the internet's

986
00:46:12,462 --> 00:46:14,542
Speaker 1: a lot, and it's a lot at the moment, and

987
00:46:15,422 --> 00:46:17,582
Speaker 1: I feel I've sort of written about this a little

988
00:46:17,582 --> 00:46:20,502
Speaker 1: bit in my newsletter, like I want to be smaller.

989
00:46:20,542 --> 00:46:22,102
Speaker 1: I want to have it just a minute of a

990
00:46:22,181 --> 00:46:27,181
Speaker 1: smaller audience. Like the scrutiny of particularly women in the

991
00:46:27,181 --> 00:46:30,261
Speaker 1: public eye, particularly in the last couple of years. The

992
00:46:30,302 --> 00:46:33,622
Speaker 1: scrutiny is a lot, and I just want a little

993
00:46:33,622 --> 00:46:36,422
Speaker 1: bit of space, to be quiet, to spend time with Luna,

994
00:46:36,502 --> 00:46:39,782
Speaker 1: to spend more time with my family and my friends,

995
00:46:39,982 --> 00:46:42,462
Speaker 1: and see what it's like when I don't have to

996
00:46:42,622 --> 00:46:46,622
Speaker 1: race and people aren't depending on me. Maybe I'll hate it.

997
00:46:46,741 --> 00:46:48,022
Speaker 1: Maybe I'll be back in two weeks.

998
00:46:48,022 --> 00:46:49,342
Speaker 2: Are you going to take up gardening?

999
00:46:49,781 --> 00:46:53,902
Speaker 1: Oh God, please kill me if I do a fuck, because.

1000
00:46:53,661 --> 00:46:55,982
Speaker 2: I've got succeed I could succeed.

1001
00:46:56,382 --> 00:46:58,262
Speaker 1: I think I'm going to join a choir we started

1002
00:46:58,261 --> 00:47:00,341
Speaker 1: acquiring by Maya that you two are not part of it,

1003
00:47:00,382 --> 00:47:03,502
Speaker 1: I want to are. I think I'm going to do that,

1004
00:47:03,582 --> 00:47:06,261
Speaker 1: and I'm going to trouble for a little bit. I

1005
00:47:06,342 --> 00:47:07,502
Speaker 1: might even go to Copenhagen.

1006
00:47:07,582 --> 00:47:09,982
Speaker 2: She's just going to find out where Copenhagan is. Really.

1007
00:47:10,022 --> 00:47:12,422
Speaker 1: I'm still on the quest to find out where he

1008
00:47:12,502 --> 00:47:15,782
Speaker 1: put it in Google maps stat Apparently it's a city,

1009
00:47:15,862 --> 00:47:19,502
Speaker 1: not a country. I've got so much to learn my Stabatacra,

1010
00:47:20,142 --> 00:47:21,701
Speaker 1: but I just wanted to say thank you. They've been

1011
00:47:21,741 --> 00:47:24,461
Speaker 1: some beautiful messages in Yeah, that is. I just wanted

1012
00:47:24,462 --> 00:47:25,701
Speaker 1: to make a big deal of it. There's not a

1013
00:47:25,701 --> 00:47:27,781
Speaker 1: big deal. It's not a drama. I'm bloody end up

1014
00:47:27,822 --> 00:47:31,022
Speaker 1: in the Daily Mail. I'm fine, it's fine.

1015
00:47:31,062 --> 00:47:31,942
Speaker 2: I'm typing.

1016
00:47:32,342 --> 00:47:34,781
Speaker 1: The only reason, exactly, the only reason I can do

1017
00:47:34,822 --> 00:47:37,261
Speaker 1: this is because everything's going so well, and in a

1018
00:47:37,261 --> 00:47:39,382
Speaker 1: time of crisis, you can't do this, and it's not

1019
00:47:39,422 --> 00:47:40,222
Speaker 1: a time of crisis.

1020
00:47:40,261 --> 00:47:42,622
Speaker 3: So that's I like you out Louder who said that

1021
00:47:43,261 --> 00:47:45,102
Speaker 3: I really need a break, and I've been waiting for

1022
00:47:45,142 --> 00:47:47,221
Speaker 3: you to have a break. I feel as though if

1023
00:47:47,261 --> 00:47:49,741
Speaker 3: there is anyone who've been waiting for permission to have

1024
00:47:49,781 --> 00:47:51,942
Speaker 3: a break, Mayor Freedman is having one.

1025
00:47:52,221 --> 00:47:56,422
Speaker 1: So sometimes you'll you'll be hearing more from the wonderful

1026
00:47:56,422 --> 00:47:58,022
Speaker 1: Amelia Lester and Vernon.

1027
00:47:58,462 --> 00:48:01,102
Speaker 2: I have one more question from It out Louder. She said,

1028
00:48:01,142 --> 00:48:02,661
Speaker 2: give it a break. May we all know you're really

1029
00:48:02,661 --> 00:48:03,542
Speaker 2: going into the jungle?

1030
00:48:05,142 --> 00:48:07,902
Speaker 1: That was my favorite, having a deep plane face, list.

1031
00:48:09,862 --> 00:48:10,582
Speaker 2: A deep face.

1032
00:48:11,741 --> 00:48:14,781
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's going to come back if you were going.

1033
00:48:14,701 --> 00:48:16,341
Speaker 1: And they're going to do both of those things, the

1034
00:48:16,422 --> 00:48:18,901
Speaker 1: jungle and a deep Plans facelift. And then I'll come

1035
00:48:18,942 --> 00:48:20,902
Speaker 1: back and you'll be like, you look so arrested, and

1036
00:48:20,942 --> 00:48:21,901
Speaker 1: I'll be like, funny that.

1037
00:48:21,982 --> 00:48:24,422
Speaker 3: It was the jungle. I'm going to start rumors that

1038
00:48:24,502 --> 00:48:25,782
Speaker 3: she's on the mask singer.

1039
00:48:27,142 --> 00:48:27,781
Speaker 1: It's my dream.

1040
00:48:28,102 --> 00:48:30,622
Speaker 2: You're a little l and bring it back, Miya. We

1041
00:48:30,741 --> 00:48:32,062
Speaker 2: love you and we're going to miss you.

1042
00:48:32,062 --> 00:48:33,341
Speaker 1: Thank you. I love you too.

1043
00:48:33,542 --> 00:48:35,342
Speaker 2: We'll be fine. The show will be fine, but it

1044
00:48:35,382 --> 00:48:37,142
Speaker 2: will be the same, and we will miss you a lot.

1045
00:48:37,181 --> 00:48:38,422
Speaker 2: And I can't wait for you to come back. And

1046
00:48:38,422 --> 00:48:40,341
Speaker 2: also I look forward to all the voice notes. Don't

1047
00:48:40,342 --> 00:48:42,301
Speaker 2: care'll be coming in our way about the things we're

1048
00:48:42,342 --> 00:48:42,741
Speaker 2: doing wrong.

1049
00:48:42,902 --> 00:48:44,382
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going to be a listener. I get to

1050
00:48:44,422 --> 00:48:46,942
Speaker 1: shout at my phone and not infurious agreement like all

1051
00:48:46,942 --> 00:48:49,622
Speaker 1: the outlouders do. I love you out louders, I'll see

1052
00:48:49,661 --> 00:48:50,542
Speaker 1: you on the other side.

1053
00:48:51,062 --> 00:48:53,302
Speaker 2: Thank you out loud as we know you'll be wishing

1054
00:48:53,302 --> 00:48:55,181
Speaker 2: out me as well as she has a well earned

1055
00:48:55,261 --> 00:48:57,502
Speaker 2: time off. Jesse and I will still be here for you.

1056
00:48:57,582 --> 00:48:59,221
Speaker 2: We'll be here for you with Amelia. We'll be here

1057
00:48:59,382 --> 00:49:00,221
Speaker 2: with you for you.

1058
00:49:00,302 --> 00:49:03,181
Speaker 3: With Emily, the will be less significantly less singing.

1059
00:49:03,181 --> 00:49:06,062
Speaker 2: I'll tell you that will be Oh my gosh, you

1060
00:49:06,102 --> 00:49:07,821
Speaker 2: and Amelia are going to try and make me talk

1061
00:49:07,822 --> 00:49:10,301
Speaker 2: about all kinds of really in tel and things all

1062
00:49:10,302 --> 00:49:12,701
Speaker 2: the time. Who's going to be my fellow gen X

1063
00:49:12,741 --> 00:49:17,422
Speaker 2: celebrity obsessive? This is I can't cope. I'm already upset spiraling.

1064
00:49:17,661 --> 00:49:19,781
Speaker 2: Thank you to our wonderful team Miya and Jesse tell

1065
00:49:19,862 --> 00:49:20,661
Speaker 2: us who they are.

1066
00:49:20,701 --> 00:49:24,022
Speaker 3: A big thank you too. Group executive producer Ruth Devine.

1067
00:49:24,062 --> 00:49:24,982
Speaker 3: She's your gen X.

1068
00:49:25,502 --> 00:49:28,142
Speaker 1: She can sing too, so she'll provide singing.

1069
00:49:28,582 --> 00:49:33,062
Speaker 3: Our senior producer is the brilliant Leah Porges. She has

1070
00:49:33,142 --> 00:49:37,181
Speaker 3: been filling in while and Gazillis has been away and

1071
00:49:37,221 --> 00:49:39,661
Speaker 3: it has been such a delight having her expertise on

1072
00:49:39,701 --> 00:49:40,022
Speaker 3: this show.

1073
00:49:40,102 --> 00:49:41,142
Speaker 1: We've kept her on her toes.

1074
00:49:41,741 --> 00:49:42,782
Speaker 3: Poor Leah never.

1075
00:49:42,701 --> 00:49:44,142
Speaker 2: Boring, is it? Leah never? Boring.

1076
00:49:44,582 --> 00:49:47,341
Speaker 3: She should put on her LinkedIn profile has seen some shit.

1077
00:49:52,342 --> 00:49:55,902
Speaker 1: Video producer Josh Green, our junior content producers Coco and Tessa.

1078
00:49:56,221 --> 00:49:58,382
Speaker 1: I'll see you soon, out loud as, I love you.

1079
00:49:58,181 --> 00:50:03,102
Speaker 2: Bye bye. Shout out to any Mamma Mia subscribers listening.

1080
00:50:03,181 --> 00:50:05,582
Speaker 2: If you love the show and you want to support us,

1081
00:50:05,822 --> 00:50:08,542
Speaker 2: subscribing to Mamma Mia is the very best way to

1082
00:50:08,582 --> 00:50:13,301
Speaker 2: do it. There's a in the episode description you will

1083
00:50:13,502 --> 00:50:15,342
Speaker 2: be back soon.

1084
00:50:17,142 --> 00:50:20,701
Speaker 1: I have a quick bit of feedback. Boom goes to dynamite.

1085
00:50:22,142 --> 00:50:25,542
Speaker 1: Take that, Take that, take that, m listening. Each is

1086
00:50:25,542 --> 00:50:27,942
Speaker 1: a song. Please don't think people have it? Hey, you

1087
00:50:28,022 --> 00:50:30,702
Speaker 1: old sea words. I thought that you needed two people

1088
00:50:30,741 --> 00:50:32,821
Speaker 1: to use it, and I was had some questions about

1089
00:50:32,862 --> 00:50:35,542
Speaker 1: the wholes. I can do this, p me do this please.

1090
00:50:36,142 --> 00:50:39,741
Speaker 1: That's why you're talking, Jesse. You're serving seaword today. I'd

1091
00:50:39,741 --> 00:50:49,262
Speaker 1: stay Pink's fabulous.

1092
00:50:49,502 --> 00:50:50,222
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay.

1093
00:50:50,422 --> 00:50:53,661
Speaker 1: What's the plural though? Is it labby? I laby? I?

1094
00:50:53,661 --> 00:50:56,502
Speaker 1: I'm sure lay by? I know, I think about that.

1095
00:50:58,542 --> 00:51:01,342
Speaker 1: I'll see you soon, out louder, I love you, bye,