Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges the
Speaker 1: traditional owners of the land and waters that this podcast
Speaker 1: is recorded on.
Speaker 2: Welcome to Parenting out Loud, the podcast for parents who
Speaker 2: don't always listen to parenting podcasts. Here we are again,
Speaker 2: another week of parenting culture, some hot takes, and this
Speaker 2: time we're in our own podcast feed, which is nice.
Speaker 2: So we let go of the mother ship of Mamma
Speaker 2: Mia out Loud. We're off the teat.
Speaker 3: We now must learn to walk.
Speaker 4: Here.
Speaker 1: We got a lot of avocado. Yeah, and it.
Speaker 3: Helps you to learn to walk.
Speaker 1: Food.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I'm Monic Bowley, I'm Amelia Lasto, and I am
Speaker 4: Stacy Kicks Stacy. Before we begin, I'm just sensing a
Speaker 4: vibe from you this week that you're very stressed out.
Speaker 1: Is that correct? Yes, I'm very stressed this week. I've
Speaker 1: had a bit of a week. I have cried multiple
Speaker 1: times this week, just to make the listeners feel seen
Speaker 1: if you've done the same, which culminated in me crying
Speaker 1: because I couldn't do a Copenhagen plank.
Speaker 4: Sorry, Jim, what is a Copenhagen plank? I thought Copenhagen
Speaker 4: was just about like being stylish.
Speaker 2: Yes, so nice.
Speaker 3: It was ice cream.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was like a torture device. I don't know why.
Speaker 1: I had to have one leg suspended in the air
Speaker 1: in a sideways plank and I couldn't do it, and
Speaker 1: the trainer came to help me. I got very upset
Speaker 1: and I said, it's not about the Copenhagen plank.
Speaker 4: It's never about the Copenhagen should be over the edge.
Speaker 1: But I'm very happy to be with you guys, very
Speaker 1: happy to be doing this. It's the highlight of my week.
Speaker 2: Oh, Stacy, let's just ignore you crying in the corner.
Speaker 2: Grab a tissue. This is what's coming up on today's show.
Speaker 1: The girl Boss is dead and them influencer is out,
Speaker 1: and there's a new status symbol in pretending you just
Speaker 1: don't have kids at all.
Speaker 4: I want to talk about how the raw book around
Speaker 4: praise has changed, and whether compliments and how we compliment
Speaker 4: people is just yet another topic around which millennials are overthinking.
Speaker 2: I saw a tiny feud on Facebook and it's changed
Speaker 2: the way I think about reading with my kids, and
Speaker 2: I want to bring it to your attention.
Speaker 4: Oh, I love a tiny few. There's a Reddit board
Speaker 4: called niche scandals, and it's just all about like people
Speaker 4: on crafting boards, like arguing with each other, and it's
Speaker 4: the best to have a low stakes feud.
Speaker 1: That sounds duey.
Speaker 2: This starts like a niche scandal, But then what I
Speaker 2: discovered is it's actually a bigger thing.
Speaker 3: It's a bigger thing. I can't wait.
Speaker 4: But first, in case you missed it, I have to
Speaker 4: talk to you about Roadblocks and why it's in the
Speaker 4: news this week.
Speaker 1: What is a roadblock? And why am I buying my
Speaker 1: friend's kids Roebucks gift cards every Christmas? And why am
Speaker 1: I talking about it this week?
Speaker 4: Yeah? So Roadblocks is an online gaming platform and the
Speaker 4: reason it's in the news this week it's been around
Speaker 4: since two thousand and six, is because as we're all
Speaker 4: preparing for the government's Social Media band to come into effect,
Speaker 4: a loophole has been discovered. And the loophole is Roadbox.
Speaker 4: Because while Roadblocks is ostensibly a place where you go
Speaker 4: to play games online, it's actually a social media site
Speaker 4: in disguise, and so it's not subject to this new
Speaker 4: Under SIXTEENES ban, but a lot of people are saying
Speaker 4: it should be. So Roadblocks has tried to preemp this
Speaker 4: by saying, hey, here's this new suite of safety features
Speaker 4: we have. But a lot of parents and experts say
Speaker 4: this is not going far enough. That Roadblocks is actually
Speaker 4: really dangerous for kids, and we have to think more
Speaker 4: systematically about how to make it safer.
Speaker 3: Roadblocks is cooked. Let's just put this on the table.
Speaker 1: It is. But I say this was like the sims like,
Speaker 1: is this not just like building little villag Yes.
Speaker 3: I think it started out like that, Stacy.
Speaker 2: I think ten years ago when it came out, people
Speaker 2: touted it as this great place for entrepreneurship and it
Speaker 2: teaches kids how to code, because essentially what it is
Speaker 2: is it's a platform where you can go on and
Speaker 2: build a game and then people come and play your games.
Speaker 3: But what'spened is that now.
Speaker 2: Because of the popularity of it, and it's something like
Speaker 2: sixty eight million uses a day, forty million of them
Speaker 2: are under the age of thirteen, it's just become this
Speaker 2: kind of free fall and now it's a place that's
Speaker 2: full of grooming, inappropriate content, bullying, racism, anti semitism. It's
Speaker 2: banned in Qatar and Turkey. It's being sued by Louisiana.
Speaker 2: But most importantly, this game uses addiction based mechanics for kids.
Speaker 2: It addicts kids, it hooks them. It is a very
Speaker 2: bad place.
Speaker 4: So I've been hearing about it a lot from my
Speaker 4: seven year old and I sort of thought, oh, it
Speaker 4: seems gentle. Like one of the most popular games on
Speaker 4: there is a game where you essentially grow a garden,
Speaker 4: and I thought, well, that sounds nice. It sort of
Speaker 4: sounds like Beatrix Potter, how lovely, and it's free. Great,
Speaker 4: So I go online to play it with him, and
Speaker 4: very shortly he's in a game where he's playing an
Speaker 4: ice a as in The Masked People, who scoop people
Speaker 4: up off the streets in the US and take them
Speaker 4: to immigration prison. And I suddenly realized that because it's
Speaker 4: open source, you start with the garden game, you end
Speaker 4: up playing an ice agent with a machine gun. Mon's
Speaker 4: you have done some research around there? Since I'm curious
Speaker 4: to know the answer. Has it always been like this,
Speaker 4: like why do we think it's the acceptable face of gaming?
Speaker 4: Like what happened?
Speaker 2: I think it's victim of inshitification. Now, this is a term.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you've heard of it. It's basically
Speaker 2: for when things turn to shit. So it's the process
Speaker 2: where online platforms start out really good and then they
Speaker 2: deteriorate over time because they become sort of just about
Speaker 2: shareholders at everyone's expense. So an example like being yes
Speaker 2: or you know, when Instagram first started, it was just
Speaker 2: your friends in the news feed, and now it's people
Speaker 2: you don't know and a lot of ads. It's sort
Speaker 2: of the same thing with Twitter. It's really gone down
Speaker 2: the toilet. So I feel like.
Speaker 3: Perhaps Roadblocks is victim of intititification.
Speaker 4: And that's why Australia's e Safety Commissioner has flagged Roadblocks
Speaker 4: and has said that in addition to the Under sixteen
Speaker 4: social media Band, we've got to talk about how to
Speaker 4: protect kids on roadblocks and look to be fair to Roadblocks.
Speaker 4: I should mention what they came out with this week.
Speaker 4: They said that under sixteen's accounts will now be private
Speaker 4: by default and they will be unable to chat with adults.
Speaker 4: And the reason why they had to put that in
Speaker 4: is because there was grooming happening on roadblocks. There have
Speaker 4: been many people arrested. Two dozen is the number. Actually,
Speaker 4: two dozen adults have been arrested on suspicion of abusing
Speaker 4: or abducting victims that they groomed on roadblocks, So this
Speaker 4: is very much a live issue. They reckon.
Speaker 3: The big problem with roadblocks is the chat feature.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 2: This is what a lot of people say, is that's
Speaker 2: how predators come in. They chat with your kids, they
Speaker 2: can groom your kids. But I don't quite believe it.
Speaker 2: I think eliminating the chat function does not solve any
Speaker 2: of the problems, because there's other ways that your kids
Speaker 2: can see things. People can write things on buildings, people
Speaker 2: can have a speech bubble coming out of them. I
Speaker 2: know there's probably people listening whose kids play this. There
Speaker 2: are other games that kids can play where they are
Speaker 2: building things, learning things. I can't see any advantage for
Speaker 2: kids being on.
Speaker 1: Right, But I don't think it's as easy as that.
Speaker 4: Mon's like speaking as someone who's having to negotiate this
Speaker 4: right now. If I disconnect from roadblocks and I ban
Speaker 4: it completely, the children will always find something else to play,
Speaker 4: and keeping the line of communication open, I think is
Speaker 4: the only solution rather than saying we're just not going
Speaker 4: to play it all.
Speaker 2: The experts say there is no safe way for kids
Speaker 2: to use this, and if they are not old enough
Speaker 2: to see porn. They are not old enough to play
Speaker 2: this game. I know you're rolling your eyes, but I
Speaker 2: follow this quite daggy Instagram account called the family it Guy.
Speaker 2: This guy's a cybersecurity expert and a dad, and he
Speaker 2: registered on Roadblocks as an eight year old and he
Speaker 2: joined a game. Within minutes, he joined a game called
Speaker 2: puss Blick Bathroom Simulator, which was a simulator where you
Speaker 2: can only imagine what was going on in there, stuff
Speaker 2: that eight year olds should not be seeing. So I
Speaker 2: don't think Roadblocks is going far enough with parental controls.
Speaker 2: I think that also this e Safety Commissioner is not
Speaker 2: going far enough with this fine. So the Australian government
Speaker 2: is saying we're going to find Roadblocks forty five million
Speaker 2: dollars for non compliance. But guys, this is a ninety
Speaker 2: five billion dollar company. Forty five million to them, that's
Speaker 2: like you walking down the street with one hundred thousand
Speaker 2: dollars in your pocket and shelling out fifty bucks. It's nothing.
Speaker 1: I've seen stories. There was a case in Kansas where
Speaker 1: an eight year old girl was sending inappropriate images to
Speaker 1: a stranger that was sending her roebucks send her thousands
Speaker 1: of Roebucks.
Speaker 4: Yes, because the other element that we haven't even really
Speaker 4: talked about here is the fact that while these games
Speaker 4: start out as free very quickly, as I discovered when
Speaker 4: I played, you were prompted to buy things in order
Speaker 4: to level up to a more advanced stage of various games,
Speaker 4: and those numbers add up really quickly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you're doing the right thing by playing the games, Like,
Speaker 1: I don't want everyone, especially people whose children are already
Speaker 1: on this game, to feel like right, the solution is
Speaker 1: that we need to just snatch the iPad off them
Speaker 1: and they're not allowed on it anymore. Like we run
Speaker 1: a story on the site this week written by Madeline West,
Speaker 1: you know Neighbors actress Madeline West, like she's an icon,
Speaker 1: but she works as an online safety advocate now for
Speaker 1: Old Shift, and she was saying that the best thing
Speaker 1: to do is never make your child afraid that if
Speaker 1: they tell you something that you'll take their devices away.
Speaker 1: That you need to, as much as it can feel
Speaker 1: like pulling teeth, be involved and be playing whatever games
Speaker 1: they're playing so that they do feel like when things
Speaker 1: like this happen they can raise it with you.
Speaker 4: Well. And the other broader problem is that as a parent,
Speaker 4: you're always trying to stay ahead of what the kids
Speaker 4: are interested in. It is a little bit like whack
Speaker 4: a mole, because once you've established that one thing is
Speaker 4: problematic in some way, they will move on to something else.
Speaker 4: So that, as you say, the solution is not to
Speaker 4: throw the baby out with the bathwater, but instead try
Speaker 4: and find a way forward with the platforms that they
Speaker 4: enjoy and stay connected to what they're doing.
Speaker 1: I guess so, I guess we're going to be planting
Speaker 1: veggies on.
Speaker 4: This game on the weekend, not being ice agents.
Speaker 1: While women once loudly and proudly celebrated the era of
Speaker 1: girl bosses and leaning in, we're now seeing women pretending
Speaker 1: that they aren't even parents at all, so they're working
Speaker 1: and looking like they're child free. There's a few examples
Speaker 1: of this in the culture this week. Case in point
Speaker 1: Margo Robbie. It would have been hard to ignore the
Speaker 1: images of Margo Robbie around this week on her press tour.
Speaker 1: Have you seen them? Yes, the naked dress. You've surely
Speaker 1: seen her believable, Yeah, loved it, I fell hook line
Speaker 1: and singer. I've seen her from every angle that you
Speaker 1: could see her I thought she looked amazing. So she's
Speaker 1: on the press tour for her movie, which is called
Speaker 1: A Big, Bold, Beautiful Journey, which feels like too many
Speaker 1: words for a movie title, but we're going to skim
Speaker 1: right over that. So what she's doing essentially, which a
Speaker 1: lot of the celebrities do nowadays, is that they're getting
Speaker 1: you to note their film, like we saw Zendea do
Speaker 1: it with Challengers. We saw Margo do it when she
Speaker 1: was on the Barbie press tour as well, like people
Speaker 1: are paying attention because of their outfits. There's six words
Speaker 1: I've heard on repeat when people are seeing these images
Speaker 1: this week that I wanted to interrogate a little bit,
Speaker 1: and those words are didn't she just have a baby?
Speaker 1: So I feel like that's a reaction that everyone I.
Speaker 3: Have said that.
Speaker 2: I said that myself. Actually, do you know the headlines
Speaker 2: around this rankled me a little bit. I know you're
Speaker 2: going to get into some other stuff, but I just
Speaker 2: want to put this on the table first. Every headline
Speaker 2: that I read was.
Speaker 3: Like, she's back, She's back.
Speaker 2: And I just felt like the undertone was, oh, thank God,
Speaker 2: like she's bounced back, she's hot, and she's working again,
Speaker 2: and it was just this subtext of a woman pretending
Speaker 2: she never really had a baby in the first place
Speaker 2: is what we want to see like glamorous hot. But
Speaker 2: this is a discussion that they had in MoMA Mea
Speaker 2: out Loud, So if you want to go into sort
Speaker 2: of that, I would highly recommend you listen to Me
Speaker 2: out Loud episode On that Mea Friedman goes.
Speaker 1: Off, Yeah, we need to remember, like this is her
Speaker 1: literal job, like her body and her appearance, let's be honest,
Speaker 1: is her job. So of course that is what she's
Speaker 1: going to be doing to be getting back to her role.
Speaker 1: That's not the case for us, thank god. But people
Speaker 1: are either saying, didn't she have a baby or they
Speaker 1: totally forgot she had a baby at all. And I
Speaker 1: think there's a little bit of a pattern that we're
Speaker 1: seeing now with this, where women were once celebrating that
Speaker 1: era of girl bosses and leaning in, and we're now
Speaker 1: seeing women pretending that they're not even parents at all,
Speaker 1: Like that seems like the new cool girl thing to do,
Speaker 1: Like don't you think this feels like the new top
Speaker 1: tier of Mummy.
Speaker 4: What I found fascinating about it is that our team
Speaker 4: here established that Margo has talked about her baby exactly once.
Speaker 5: Everyone who was sitting with me were, I mean the
Speaker 5: music number, the musical number happens, And honestly, I'm so sorry,
Speaker 5: great sound track, isn't that you can do?
Speaker 1: I'm sorry I had to start the interview for a set, yeah,
Speaker 1: because like, aren't you isn't there a part of you?
Speaker 1: There's like yes, I like time, that's it.
Speaker 4: And what I think is fascinating about this is it's
Speaker 4: kind of the era of being a stealth mum. And
Speaker 4: it's so different from ten years ago when celebrities would
Speaker 4: talk endlessly, ad infinitum about how having children had changed
Speaker 4: everything for them. I'm now picking roles that are more
Speaker 4: compassionate and more deep, and now they're.
Speaker 1: Just not talking about it at all. I feel like
Speaker 1: you see that with your friends, like your normy friends
Speaker 1: that have three hundred followers on Instagram, Like I know
Speaker 1: a lot of people now they don't announce their pregnancy,
Speaker 1: they don't announce the birth, Nope. They just start having
Speaker 1: like little toes in the corner of their photo or
Speaker 1: the back of a baby's head. Like it's very much
Speaker 1: a thing now, like a cool girl thing. And I
Speaker 1: guess Margot is the old pap or girl.
Speaker 4: It started with Kylie Jenna having a completely secret pregnancy.
Speaker 1: Maybe that was it. Yeah, the stealth mom started with
Speaker 1: Kylie like every other bloody trend on this planet.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I so agree. This cultural shift is so interesting.
Speaker 2: So first we had girl Boss, Rise and Grind. Then
Speaker 2: it was sharanting like it was very much oversharing everything
Speaker 2: about parenting everywhere like hashtag real. But now I agree
Speaker 2: it is stealth mum where your kids are not your brand.
Speaker 2: So Kylie Jenner, what about Hailey Bieber? She never talks
Speaker 2: about her baby. Margot Robbie doesn't talk about her baby.
Speaker 2: It's like a flex of Yeah, I have kids, but
Speaker 2: I don't need to make them my brand.
Speaker 4: And I get it. Look, I used to have a
Speaker 4: thing and I've spoken about it on this podcast where
Speaker 4: I still kind of have it at my day job
Speaker 4: where I just do not want to talk about having
Speaker 4: kids at work. And if no one ever has to
Speaker 4: hear about me going to a school concert, that my
Speaker 4: sweet spot.
Speaker 1: I kind of tried to do the same thing when
Speaker 1: I started at Mum and Mea. I was like, you know,
Speaker 1: it's a fresh start. I'm going to be really cool
Speaker 1: and mysterious, and you know they'll be shocked, like a
Speaker 1: year down the track when they find out a a kid,
Speaker 1: because obviously I'm too young to have a child. And
Speaker 1: then like I think, at about one pm on my
Speaker 1: first day, I might have mentioned I got an update
Speaker 1: photo of my daughter, so it all went out the window.
Speaker 4: But why do we think that way, and why is
Speaker 4: it sort of now cool to not talk about your
Speaker 4: children or to sort of act like you don't have children.
Speaker 1: It's almost like you've got to pick a brand for
Speaker 1: your job, and if your child doesn't align with your brand,
Speaker 1: then you know they have to be kept separate.
Speaker 3: I wonder if it's a generational thing. So millennials centered
Speaker 3: their children at the center of the world. We are
Speaker 3: intense parents, We are overparenting. I wonder if the next
Speaker 3: generation alphas or z's are going the other way, where
Speaker 3: they're centering themselves and they keep true to themselves and
Speaker 3: what they're doing, and they don't make their kids their
Speaker 3: entire personality. It's just probably a reflexive action. You know,
Speaker 3: how we parent in the way in the opposite way
Speaker 3: to our parents parented. Maybe the next generation is saying,
Speaker 3: I don't want everything to be about my kids, still
Speaker 3: about me. I'm still number one.
Speaker 4: I've got a theory that I think it's a bit political.
Speaker 4: I think the reason why we've seen the rise of
Speaker 4: the stealth mum is because it reflects this newfound ambivalence
Speaker 4: we have about the very idea of the working mother.
Speaker 4: We all know that the tradwife wave happened, but those
Speaker 4: trad wifs were already doing a job. They were performing
Speaker 4: the job of being a trad wife. But now I
Speaker 4: think there's this deep seated kind of nervousness about how
Speaker 4: you have a kid in capitalism at all, and people
Speaker 4: are just saying, of all political stripes, I don't want
Speaker 4: to have to do that. The workplace was structured for men,
Speaker 4: and it's impossible in some ways to fulfill both the
Speaker 4: role of being a parent and the role of being
Speaker 4: a good employee. And they're checking out of it, and
Speaker 4: they're saying, I don't want to do that anymore. And
Speaker 4: I think that's why it's almost become like daggy to
Speaker 4: try and balance the two, because it's sort of seen
Speaker 4: as like, well, you're clearly not doing a good job
Speaker 4: on either of them.
Speaker 1: And it's interesting when you use the term stealth mumming,
Speaker 1: because I've seen that. This week there was a piece
Speaker 1: in the Cut where they talked about Vogue's new editor.
Speaker 1: Vogues knew she's called head of editorial Content so that
Speaker 1: there's never another editor after Anna Wintall, which I love.
Speaker 1: But Vogue's new head of editorial content Chloe mahl So.
Speaker 1: The author Catherine jess and Morton admitted that her first
Speaker 1: thought when she saw that Marl had been promoted to
Speaker 1: this spot was how is she going to do that
Speaker 1: with a four and a two year old? And she
Speaker 1: was saying this, she said she felt like hard working,
Speaker 1: ambitious mothers have gone into stealth mode in the last decade.
Speaker 4: Min's we talked about how we've tried to stealth mom
Speaker 4: unsuccessfully at work. Have you stealth mum? No?
Speaker 2: I haven't stealth mum. But my most recent boss was
Speaker 2: a stealth mum. Where she was this unbelievably impressive woman
Speaker 2: and I had been working with her for a few
Speaker 2: weeks when she casually just dropped in something about having
Speaker 2: a six month old baby, and I write two two
Speaker 2: very small children. This is a woman, incredible, ambitious, a
Speaker 2: very very large job that was my first example of
Speaker 2: stealth mumming in real life.
Speaker 1: And how did it make you feel?
Speaker 4: Did you feel a little like misled or was it
Speaker 4: just I'm impressed?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 2: Is it wrong to say I was impressed? It was
Speaker 2: my first example of the subtext being I'm not here
Speaker 2: to talk about my kids. I'm not here to be
Speaker 2: defined by them. I'm not going to be defined as
Speaker 2: a harried, tired working mother. I'm here, I'm standing on
Speaker 2: business and my kids are not my brand. And I
Speaker 2: think that we have seen this cultural shift where probably
Speaker 2: ten years ago it was all about sharinging. Well there
Speaker 2: is still some of that, but a lot of millennial
Speaker 2: parents were over sharing and over there was a raft
Speaker 2: of like mummy blogs showing it this is what it's like,
Speaker 2: this is the real me, very messy kind of parenting.
Speaker 2: But now there is this shift into cool girl stealth
Speaker 2: mums who don't make kids part of their brand and
Speaker 2: who don't seemingly exist.
Speaker 1: But I worry about this though, because I'm like, why
Speaker 1: should I pretend I didn't basically go to war before
Speaker 1: I got to work, Like I've had to battle a
Speaker 1: child into a uniform, get them out the door, get
Speaker 1: myself ready within that deal with a tantrum, like it
Speaker 1: is part of our brand, Like should we be denying
Speaker 1: that part of our self exists?
Speaker 3: Do men make a part of their brand?
Speaker 1: No, because they're not doing that.
Speaker 4: And also I worry that it's just adding more pressure
Speaker 4: onto us to keep this veneer of I'm not going
Speaker 4: to say perfection, because I don't think anyone thinks I
Speaker 4: have a veneer of perfection, but a veneer of just
Speaker 4: kind of like impenetrability and like pretending like our kids
Speaker 4: don't exist.
Speaker 1: It just puts more pressure on us.
Speaker 2: It felt kind of boundaried to me. It felt like
Speaker 2: that's my other life and this is my work life.
Speaker 1: Like almost a relief. I guess that's why I do it.
Speaker 4: Actually, it is a relief to be able to go
Speaker 4: to work and not think about my children while I'm there.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: The ang the greatest I've ever seen a man is
Speaker 4: I went to a dinner where I was seated next
Speaker 4: to a pediatric pomonologist and I was just making small
Speaker 4: talk with him, and I knew that he had two
Speaker 4: small children at home, and I said to him, Wow,
Speaker 4: that must be a lot, because you got this kids
Speaker 4: at home. And then you're talking to kids at work,
Speaker 4: and he flew into a rage and started telling me
Speaker 4: that his job isn't about talking to children. And I
Speaker 4: was thinking about it afterwards and why he was so
Speaker 4: angry at me, and I think there were two reasons.
Speaker 4: So first is because men are accustomed to being stealth dads,
Speaker 4: like that's the default to be a stealth dad, and
Speaker 4: so to be told like there's some continuation between what
Speaker 4: you do at home and what you do at work,
Speaker 4: it was almost offensive to him. It was almost undermining
Speaker 4: his professionalism in a way that a woman would never
Speaker 4: take offense at that. She may not want to talk
Speaker 4: about it once to your point, but she's not going
Speaker 4: to take offense. And then I think the second reason
Speaker 4: why he took offense was sort of specific to the
Speaker 4: context of the conversation, which was that he thought that
Speaker 4: I was saying that his job was requiring caregiving, it
Speaker 4: was about looking after children, and for him it was
Speaker 4: about solving a problem, not looking after them, not caregiving,
Speaker 4: which is coded as feminine. But it's just interesting to
Speaker 4: reflect on as an example of how for dads, stealth
Speaker 4: dadding is what they've always done.
Speaker 3: It does feel like there's a motherhood penalty in the workplace,
Speaker 3: there's a bias around if you say as a mother,
Speaker 3: I'm a mother, it has connotations of you're not completely
Speaker 3: focused on work, You're going to have to take time
Speaker 3: off for sick kids. So I wonder if stealth mumming
Speaker 3: is in response to that, trying to push back against
Speaker 3: people's bias.
Speaker 4: It's kind of a necessity in order to be taken seriously. Potentially. Yeah,
Speaker 4: I don't know if you've come across this, but there's
Speaker 4: some new thinking around the idea of praise and compliments,
Speaker 4: and this new thinking is that praise itself might be toxic.
Speaker 4: Let me explain. Some studies actually compare excessive praise to
Speaker 4: a dangerous chemical or at aol to manipulate people into
Speaker 4: doing what we want.
Speaker 1: Oh God, they were doing compliments wrong.
Speaker 4: And this came up for me because something happened to
Speaker 4: my child at school recently which kind of upset me.
Speaker 4: And it was around are You Oka Day, which is
Speaker 4: always marked on the second day in September, And what
Speaker 4: happened was that the students in my kids class were
Speaker 4: creating compliment buckets and he and his classmates were encouraged
Speaker 4: to fill these compliment buckets with compliments about other kids
Speaker 4: in the class. Suffice to say, I'm sure you can
Speaker 4: anticipate what ended up happening. There were a lot of
Speaker 4: hurt feelings because kids were comparing how many compliments they
Speaker 4: had compared with other kids, and it basically turned into
Speaker 4: a popularity contest. And the other problem with it is
Speaker 4: that what is a compliment for a child? What is
Speaker 4: okay to compliment a child about? And I realized that
Speaker 4: the whole thing is actually a bit of a minefield,
Speaker 4: and it's really a new development. The first time I
Speaker 4: thought about this was I noticed that gen X parents
Speaker 4: around me were getting very mindful about how they were
Speaker 4: praising their kid kids, and they'd say things like I
Speaker 4: can see you tried so hard to draw this balloon,
Speaker 4: rather than like, what a great picture of a balloon?
Speaker 4: And I sort of inherited that when I had kids,
Speaker 4: and I didn't compliment their appearances, even though sometimes they
Speaker 4: were just wearing a great outfit. And I always talked
Speaker 4: about effort rather than outcome. But don't children deserve the
Speaker 4: same recognition as adults, Like I love a compliment, it
Speaker 4: makes me feel good. Isn't a child simply asking for
Speaker 4: our attention and our recognition and a pat on the
Speaker 4: head for how beautiful.
Speaker 1: A picture is.
Speaker 4: And I'm just wondering, is this another example of millennials
Speaker 4: overthinking everything to the nth degree?
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, it is, okay, this is what we do.
Speaker 1: We overthink everything. And this feels like, now to give
Speaker 1: a child a compliment, you've got to put it through
Speaker 1: a mind map of like does it praise their appearance?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 1: Yes, like to get the compliment even out of your mouth,
Speaker 1: Like I know that even people say, don't say good
Speaker 1: boy or good girl, Like you're not meant to do that,
Speaker 1: because that's incururaging them to be really compliant, Like you
Speaker 1: should be saying well done or good effort. You're not
Speaker 1: meant to say good boy or good girl. So it
Speaker 1: feels like every time we think about praising our child,
Speaker 1: then we're stopping ourselves and going, no, but their appearance
Speaker 1: isn't the most beautiful thing about them. I need to
Speaker 1: praise them for being strong or being kind. And it
Speaker 1: just feels like we're exhausting ourselves by just trying to
Speaker 1: be good and tell them that they're great, Like if
Speaker 1: we're not going to tell them they're great, who's going
Speaker 1: to do it.
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm so exhausted by this, So now we can't
Speaker 2: even praise correctly. But you're right, Amelia, overthinking is the
Speaker 2: millennial brand of parenting, right.
Speaker 3: It's not our fault.
Speaker 2: Though we have parenting books, podcasts, newsletters, Instagram accounts all
Speaker 2: telling us that there's a right way to say good job.
Speaker 2: But our parents just had like a cigarette and didn't
Speaker 2: think about it.
Speaker 3: So of course we're hyper aware. It's how we've been conditioned.
Speaker 4: And I also want to inject a note here that
Speaker 4: praise it does make people we feel good. And on
Speaker 4: the other hand, I know I mentioned that the new
Speaker 4: thinking is that it's kind of like a toxic chemical,
Speaker 4: but there's also studies that show that people who say
Speaker 4: they were praised a lot by their parents are more
Speaker 4: likely to be happy. And there's even a correlation between
Speaker 4: income and how much praise people received as children, which
Speaker 4: is fascinating.
Speaker 1: Because that's what I'm saying as well. There's this woman
Speaker 1: I follow on TikTok, you know, when I'm meant to
Speaker 1: be asleep and I just scroll for hours on end,
Speaker 1: called doctor Chelsea and she said, you're meant to give
Speaker 1: a hundred pieces of praise a day to a day,
Speaker 1: each child, each child, each child, And she was saying
Speaker 1: it's because if all you're doing is correction and direction,
Speaker 1: like if all you're doing is saying no, don't do that, no,
Speaker 1: get off that, put your shoes on, Like, all they're
Speaker 1: hearing from our mouths is things that they need to
Speaker 1: do or things that they need to not do. So
Speaker 1: she was saying, you need to do really micro compliments
Speaker 1: to them, so things like you put your shoes on,
Speaker 1: well done, you came down for dinner, well done. No.
Speaker 4: I wonder how that translates into the workplace too, because
Speaker 4: maybe it's like also a good management technique to be
Speaker 4: praising everyone one hundred times a day.
Speaker 1: But can you imagine that would mean that we're saying
Speaker 1: things like wow, that's an amazing font you used in
Speaker 1: that deck, and wow you circled back when you said
Speaker 1: you'd circle back and close the loop. Good on you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Like please.
Speaker 2: I for one would like more praise in the workplace.
Speaker 2: I don't think there's enough. There's a lot of stick
Speaker 2: and not heaps of carrot in workplaces, and I think
Speaker 2: it's a good cultural thing to tell people when they've
Speaker 2: done a good job.
Speaker 1: Which we mentioned Herem's that you look beautiful and you're
Speaker 1: doing such a good job today, and you're so strong.
Speaker 3: My beauty. I praise the effort. I tried really hard today.
Speaker 2: I did a lot of research, and I did research
Speaker 2: on this, and I think the point we're missing is
Speaker 2: over praise, excessive praise.
Speaker 3: This is the problem.
Speaker 2: And the research says that over praising kids can turn
Speaker 2: them into external validation junkies, and it turns them into
Speaker 2: doing things for extrinsic praise rather than like the intrinsic
Speaker 2: motivation of working hard. It also diminishes rezilily. So if
Speaker 2: kids have grown up with constantly wow, you ate your
Speaker 2: vegetables so amazing, or everything you do is incredible, then
Speaker 2: the first time they hit a real critic, or if
Speaker 2: the first time they get feedback, the first time they
Speaker 2: even just get sort of a neutral silence or not
Speaker 2: someone pumping their ties, it can feel really crushing and
Speaker 2: really derailing. And I think that we do see that
Speaker 2: in the workplace. There is a generation here that can't
Speaker 2: take feedback and can't handle it when you're not pumping
Speaker 2: their tires every five minutes.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but Mon's I did my research for this segment too,
Speaker 4: and deserve praise and recognition for that, And the studies
Speaker 4: I found said the opposite. So now I think the
Speaker 4: point is that that's why we're overthinking it, because there's
Speaker 4: so much data on both sides. Do you praise them
Speaker 4: one hundred times a day? Do you make sure that
Speaker 4: you don't praise them too much? And then ultimately, maybe
Speaker 4: what we previously might have thought was an instinctive act
Speaker 4: to praise or not praise has instead turned into something
Speaker 4: that we have to intellectualize.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we just need to tell people and
Speaker 1: they look nice and move on. So now I've brought
Speaker 1: you my favorite video from the internet this week, and
Speaker 1: I want you to have a listen. It's a woman
Speaker 1: named Chelsea who's just become my new hero. Here she is,
Speaker 1: we don't do bath toys.
Speaker 5: Over here, my baby does not do bath toys.
Speaker 1: You want to know why? Too much bullshit?
Speaker 5: Okay, bad time is to get in, wash your ass,
Speaker 5: get out. That's exactly what we do. We get in,
Speaker 5: we wash our ass, we get out because there's two
Speaker 5: minutes of a hassle with these toys. You load the
Speaker 5: toys in, you get the toys out. You dry the
Speaker 5: toys off, you hope the toys don't moved. Gotta keep
Speaker 5: washing all the toys. I already gotta wash this toy.
Speaker 5: I'm not adding a new group of toys that specifically
Speaker 5: get wet and most of the time stay with that.
Speaker 1: I also got to wash.
Speaker 5: That's extra work for what play with your toys when
Speaker 5: you get out the bat.
Speaker 1: I love Chelsea so much. I stepped on a bluey
Speaker 1: toy and a dinosaur last night in my shower, so
Speaker 1: she has now become my new icon. I'm doing less
Speaker 1: toys in the shower and the bar.
Speaker 3: I love this from Chelsea.
Speaker 2: But for people that have neurodivergent kids who like deep pressure,
Speaker 2: bathtime can be really important. And bath time is, as
Speaker 2: you say, Amelia, the calming thing. You might be a
Speaker 2: parent that has a kid that has multiple barths a
Speaker 2: day because it's quite regulating for them.
Speaker 3: So yeah, that's just me being the fun police.
Speaker 2: And I know that Chelsea is not against bathtime per se.
Speaker 2: She's pro bath, just anti bath toy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's just saying just get them in there, get
Speaker 1: them clean, and get out. I like it.
Speaker 2: It's effiicient or business. But can I also give you
Speaker 2: guys an amazing hack for bath time. So I fell
Speaker 2: into this trap where both times went on and on
Speaker 2: and on because I could never get them out. I
Speaker 2: went to Bunnings and I bought pond lights like ten dollar.
Speaker 2: They're a little disc and you have a remote that
Speaker 2: comes with it and it turns them into different colors
Speaker 2: and I put them on the bottom of the bath
Speaker 2: and the kids are obsessed with them because it lights
Speaker 2: up the bath. So you turn the lights off, you
Speaker 2: put the pond lights on, and then when you've had enough,
Speaker 2: you take your remote and you turn the pond light
Speaker 2: to red and you say, oh far, time's finished. Like
Speaker 2: the lights turned to red. That means we've got to
Speaker 2: get out. Just works, They're just something in their brain goes,
Speaker 2: oh shit, the light's red out.
Speaker 1: We get that's very good Monds, but that's another toy
Speaker 1: for the bum. You're going against Chelsea's advice. I am
Speaker 1: taking Chelsea's advice. I'm taking everything out and only adding bubbles,
Speaker 1: and I guarantee it will be better. That's what I'm doing.
Speaker 2: There's a tiny internet feud on Facebook that I would
Speaker 2: like to bring to your attention that I discovered this week.
Speaker 2: So move over Hottest one hundred because the ABC are
Speaker 2: running a competition for the Hottest one hundred books of
Speaker 2: the twenty first century, and it listed Where Is the
Speaker 2: Green Sheep?
Speaker 3: By Mem Fox a classic.
Speaker 2: Total classic, but it left one thing off the illustrator
Speaker 2: Judy horror Check. So this week she wrote on her Facebook, Hey, ABC,
Speaker 2: you have Where is the Green Sheep listed as by
Speaker 2: mem Fox alone? You know it's actually by Memfox and
Speaker 2: me right, And then she goes on to say in
Speaker 2: the comments, you know, the people that do the pictures
Speaker 2: in picture books are frequently left off, like we're used
Speaker 2: to it, but it also drives us nuts. So Judy
Speaker 2: Horrichek has had just about enough of illustrators being overlooked,
Speaker 2: and I just want to have a moment for the
Speaker 2: illustrators of children's books.
Speaker 4: Such a good point, I'm ashamed to say. I hadn't
Speaker 4: even thought about this until I came across this item,
Speaker 4: and then I started to think about how important illustrations
Speaker 4: are in children's books and how they stir feeling in
Speaker 4: children that they never forget, Like where would Roll Dhal
Speaker 4: be without the Quentin Blake line drawings exactly?
Speaker 1: Like the kids can't read the words. The thing that's
Speaker 1: drawing them into the book is the illustrations. Like, I
Speaker 1: feel so bad that I've never thought about this before.
Speaker 1: Like I could not tell you the names of the
Speaker 1: illustrators on my daughter's books, and yet we read them
Speaker 1: every night. But I should. Now I'm going to pay
Speaker 1: attention to this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I read this amazing piece in The Guardian about
Speaker 2: illustrations and the history of illustrations and what was that
Speaker 2: Illustrations are as memory evoking as smells or songs, So
Speaker 2: you see things as a kid and it will stick
Speaker 2: with you for life.
Speaker 3: That's so true, Stacy.
Speaker 2: If kids are visual learners, you know, we've spent all
Speaker 2: this time trying to get them off of iPads.
Speaker 3: They're drawn to visuals all the time.
Speaker 2: Our illustrators actually the real rock stars of our childhoods,
Speaker 2: and we've just been ignoring them.
Speaker 1: They really are, Like we need to pour one out
Speaker 1: for them now, Like they are the reason that our
Speaker 1: kids even drawn to books in the first place. Like
Speaker 1: I guarantee, if they were just black and white words
Speaker 1: on the page, they're not going to sit there for
Speaker 1: more than two seconds. So yeah, we need to pour
Speaker 1: one out for the illustrators.
Speaker 2: I reckon great illustrators, like as you said, Quentin Blake,
Speaker 2: like Helen Oxbury, who did We're going on a bear Hunt?
Speaker 2: They shape the stories as much as the writers do.
Speaker 2: You know, We're going on a bear Hunt was originally
Speaker 2: supposed to be about a line of kings and queens
Speaker 2: going on a bear hunt, but Helen Oxenbury turned it
Speaker 2: into like this regular family squelching through the mud, and
Speaker 2: that's just where the beauty is. And this article also
Speaker 2: said that kids love chaos in illustrations.
Speaker 3: They fixate on messy.
Speaker 2: Disruptive moments in books so peas spilling out or the
Speaker 2: tiger that came to tea drinking all the water out
Speaker 2: of the tap, and they find a lot of joy
Speaker 2: in the disorder, and that these illustrations can also help
Speaker 2: them deal with big feelings chaos, loneliness, loss or anger
Speaker 2: all through the pictures much more than words can. The
Speaker 2: upshot of this is that I went onto the ABC
Speaker 2: Book's website. They have updated the entry for mem Fox.
Speaker 2: They have included Judy horrorcheck. She gets my vote, Judy,
Speaker 2: we love you. I also want to shout out to
Speaker 2: Deborah n Island for drawing my favorite illustrations in Mulgarbill's bicycle.
Speaker 2: And also she did that hippopotamus that goes on.
Speaker 3: That is brilliant hctics one of the bed illustrator right
Speaker 3: such range.
Speaker 2: So thank you illustrators, thank you for bringing the magic.
Speaker 2: To wrap up today's show, we're going to just share
Speaker 2: the things that we are loving sick, so the stuff
Speaker 2: you might text to your friends or put in the
Speaker 2: Mums group, Chat Amelia, what's on your list.
Speaker 4: This is going to sound strange, but my recommendation this
Speaker 4: week is getting the newspaper. Oh. I subscribed to my
Speaker 4: local paper to have it delivered Monday through Sunday, and
Speaker 4: it is bringing me such joy and delight. And I've
Speaker 4: tried to think about why that is. I think it's
Speaker 4: because when you read the news in the newspaper, it's
Speaker 4: giving come closer, it's saying, come here, let's share this experience.
Speaker 4: If you read the news on your phone and your
Speaker 4: droom scrolling, that says go away. It says I don't
Speaker 4: want to be disturbed. And there's something about the act
Speaker 4: of scrolling where it doesn't invite people in in the
Speaker 4: way that a big newspaper does, and a.
Speaker 1: Newspaper's a novelty now to them, like they don't see that,
Speaker 1: so how cool.
Speaker 4: There's so many nice things about it, like you can
Speaker 4: practice numbers and talk about numbers on the world weather page.
Speaker 4: You can do the word games together with a pen
Speaker 4: and paper so fun.
Speaker 3: You can draw mustaches and all the world leaders.
Speaker 4: And I think it's modeling good information hygiene, which I
Speaker 4: think is going to be increasingly a topic of conversation
Speaker 4: going forward with AI and everything else that's going on.
Speaker 4: And I just think overall, it makes me feel calmer
Speaker 4: because when I read the newspaper, it's a finite experience.
Speaker 4: I can get to the end of it and I
Speaker 4: can feel like, Okay, I know what's going on. I
Speaker 4: don't need to keep doom scrolling. I don't need to
Speaker 4: read all the news in the world. This is the
Speaker 4: news that I need to know today. So I think
Speaker 4: it's been a really nice experience, not just for my kids,
Speaker 4: but also for me.
Speaker 2: I love that it's so intentional, and it's also you
Speaker 2: can't skip around all over the place like you can
Speaker 2: on a phone.
Speaker 3: It's just the one single tasking. Love it. What about you, Stacey?
Speaker 1: So mine this week is a docco that I cannot
Speaker 1: stop thinking about. Have you guys watched Unknown Number The
Speaker 1: Catfish Story on Netflix? Stacy obsessed? Yes, mons no?
Speaker 3: Is it a true crime?
Speaker 1: Yes? True crime documentary my favorite kind. So I promise
Speaker 1: I'm not going to spoil it for you. I'll just
Speaker 1: give you top line. But if you want to listen
Speaker 1: to more and you have watched it, Mom and Me
Speaker 1: are allowed did a subs episode on it this week.
Speaker 1: So it's a thirteen year old girl, Lauren Lacari. She
Speaker 1: lives in this tiny town in Michigan, like couple hundred people.
Speaker 1: And Lauren starts stating a boy in her class named Owen,
Speaker 1: and that's when the messages start. So she starts getting
Speaker 1: up to forty to fifty abusive messages to her phone
Speaker 1: a day from an unknown number, and so does Owen.
Speaker 1: And then they start coming to different people, but they
Speaker 1: are the main ones that start receiving these messages. This
Speaker 1: goes on for fifteen months until they finally figure out
Speaker 1: who it is. So it's satisfying in that you will
Speaker 1: find out who it is, and it is infuriating when
Speaker 1: you find out who it is. But I think the
Speaker 1: most interesting part about watching it and I'm sure you'll agree, Amelia,
Speaker 1: Like the question you have when you're watching it is
Speaker 1: why didn't they take the phones off the kids? Like
Speaker 1: why didn't they remove their And it's such an interesting
Speaker 1: reflection on society today in that the other parents of
Speaker 1: the kids at the school said, well, no, we don't
Speaker 1: want our kids phones taken away because we want to
Speaker 1: know where they are. We want to be able to
Speaker 1: track them and to be able to contact them. And
Speaker 1: that's actually something that we touched on in last week's
Speaker 1: episode when we were talking about phone tracking. It very
Speaker 1: much plays into that, like would you track your kids?
Speaker 1: And why do we want to track our kids? So
Speaker 1: this poor girl had to go to school every day
Speaker 1: knowing these messages were going to come through, and it
Speaker 1: was all because the other parents wouldn't get on board
Speaker 1: and support it. It was a bit of an aha
Speaker 1: moment for me because I've find that conversation around phones
Speaker 1: and children it's often about well, the kids don't want
Speaker 1: to give the phone up because they're addicted, and that
Speaker 1: may or may not be true. But what this documentary
Speaker 1: shows is that parents also feel ambivalent about taking their
Speaker 1: phones away from their kids because it's a way to
Speaker 1: keep in touch with their kids and keep in some
Speaker 1: ways control over their kids. And it was a reminder
Speaker 1: that that dynamic goes both ways. Yeah, and when the
Speaker 1: reveal happens, it's so satisfying. Mons, Like there is videos
Speaker 1: all over the internet. You will scream. You will scream
Speaker 1: out loud when you find out who it is. It's
Speaker 1: that satisfying. So please watch for principle, it's the teaching
Speaker 1: a word. You'll have to watch.
Speaker 2: It's the teacher and it's an exercise in resilience. Everybody fails.
Speaker 1: Mon's what's yours this week?
Speaker 2: I have a viral two ingredient dinner for lazy people
Speaker 2: who hate cooking to me ingredient.
Speaker 1: Please give it to me.
Speaker 3: It's changed my life.
Speaker 2: I can't stop talking about this and telling everybody about this.
Speaker 2: So I stole it from the Lee's and Sarah podcast,
Speaker 2: which for transparency reasons, I work on this show. But
Speaker 2: this recipe has gone viral in a way that we've
Speaker 2: never seen anything do before.
Speaker 3: People are losing their minds. It's called the triple Bee.
Speaker 3: All you need to do is get a beef bowler
Speaker 3: blade from the supermarket. It's called a beef bowler blade.
Speaker 3: A triple be.
Speaker 1: It's not like a cut of meat.
Speaker 3: It's a cut of meat. It's like a big roast.
Speaker 3: It's called beef bowl blade.
Speaker 1: Okay, got it.
Speaker 2: And then a jar of Cha Sus sauce. It comes
Speaker 2: in a red jar. What you do is you turn
Speaker 2: on your slow cooker, you dump the triple be in it.
Speaker 2: You pour over the entire jar of Chassius sauce, put
Speaker 2: the lid on, put it on low for eight to
Speaker 2: ten hours, and walk away.
Speaker 3: That is it.
Speaker 2: No browning, no nothing, two things, triple b Cha su,
Speaker 2: walk away and at the end what you will have
Speaker 2: is the most amazing, succulent, delicious pulley a party like
Speaker 2: Chinese infused beef.
Speaker 4: What is the charge eating a meal a succulent Chinese me.
Speaker 2: That you could serve with rice. You could put it
Speaker 2: on like a white roll with some kalslaur in it.
Speaker 2: It's just amazing. It's become a weekly staple in this
Speaker 2: house because it's so ridiculously easy.
Speaker 4: YEA.
Speaker 1: Nothing insides. Rage in me is when you see a
Speaker 1: slow cooker recipe and it says you've got a brown
Speaker 1: in a pan fur, I might No, I'm not doing
Speaker 1: that because I'll just book it in the pan. So
Speaker 1: this is great, love it.
Speaker 2: That's all we have time for on Parenting out Loud
Speaker 2: this week. We are so happy that you're here in
Speaker 2: our new home in this feed, so thank you for
Speaker 2: hitting the follow button. Actually, we do need a name
Speaker 2: for our tribe of smart parents.
Speaker 3: What can we call them?
Speaker 2: Maybe poles call yeah the polyp Please pout louders like
Speaker 2: parenting out Louders.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I like that?
Speaker 4: All right?
Speaker 2: Well, before you go, we are so goddamn thirsty for
Speaker 2: praise here. Maybe our parents did not praise us enough,
Speaker 2: and frankly it shows. So if you've got any spare
Speaker 2: praise rattling around that you're taking off your kids now,
Speaker 2: we'd love to have it. So the way you can
Speaker 2: do it is drop us a review on Apple Podcasts.
Speaker 2: It actually helps other people find the show because the
Speaker 2: Apple charts work in this way where it's this weird
Speaker 2: alchemy of reviews and follows, so it's like the worst
Speaker 2: game of roadblocks ever. So please write us a review.
Speaker 2: But here's the challenge. Here's what I would love.
Speaker 3: I would love if you could please write it in
Speaker 3: gentle parenting speak, so very non praise speak. That would
Speaker 3: really make me laugh.
Speaker 2: So none of this this is the best podcast in
Speaker 2: the whole word world. Like that sort of reckless praise
Speaker 2: will go straight to our heads. It's not good for us.
Speaker 2: So I really want to see what people have got.
Speaker 2: So here's an example. You worked really hard on this
Speaker 2: episode and it shows keep going.
Speaker 3: You're learning and growing every week. I'd like the way
Speaker 3: you're speaking here. I bet one day you're gonna get it.
Speaker 2: Please leave us one a little inside joke for all
Speaker 2: of us, and I can't wait to read them. Big
Speaker 2: Thanks to our team this week. Junior Content Producer is
Speaker 2: Tessa Kotovich, produces Leaporgus and Sashatanic and the group ep
Speaker 2: Is Roots de Vine.
Speaker 3: Have a great week. Will be back in this feed
Speaker 3: next Saturday morning. See ya, Bye, Yes