WEBVTT - Um, Who Are You Calling A Narcissist? 0:00:10.622 --> 0:00:13.382 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 0:00:13.822 --> 0:00:17.182 Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and warders 0:00:17.222 --> 0:00:18.822 that this podcast is recorded on. 0:00:20.582 --> 0:00:25.422 I only get profoundly irritained or invested enough to care 0:00:25.662 --> 0:00:28.142 about people who are close to me. If I don't 0:00:28.142 --> 0:00:30.141 care at all, it's a sign that you're not important 0:00:30.222 --> 0:00:31.621 in my life. You know what I mean? 0:00:31.822 --> 0:00:31.982 Oh? 0:00:31.982 --> 0:00:33.982 No, I have strong feelings about lots of people who 0:00:33.942 --> 0:00:37.342 aren't important in who I've never met before. 0:00:40.462 --> 0:00:43.422 Hello, and welcome to Mamma Mia. Out loud what women 0:00:43.462 --> 0:00:46.422 are actually talking about on Wednesday, the fourteenth of May. 0:00:46.502 --> 0:00:48.062 I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm. 0:00:47.862 --> 0:00:50.502 Mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens. 0:00:50.102 --> 0:00:53.542 And welcome to our chaotic on the Road recording. Hopefully 0:00:53.582 --> 0:00:56.302 you've been enjoying it this week and it continues because 0:00:56.302 --> 0:00:58.382 today we are in Brisbane and we will see you 0:00:58.462 --> 0:01:01.542 tonight out Louders on the show. There's a word being 0:01:01.582 --> 0:01:03.902 thrown around a lot on the internet this week, and 0:01:03.942 --> 0:01:07.862 it's narcissist. Why is everyone suddenly one? And if you 0:01:07.982 --> 0:01:10.342 have to google whether or not you are one? Is 0:01:10.382 --> 0:01:14.302 the answer clear? Also, the p Diddy trial started this 0:01:14.422 --> 0:01:18.021 week and the headlines are already grimmed. What's it all about? 0:01:18.182 --> 0:01:21.782 On which celebrities are feeling very nervous right now? And 0:01:22.502 --> 0:01:25.262 is it normal to hate your partner? There's a very 0:01:25.302 --> 0:01:29.262 respectable couples therapist who says yes, and that actually it's 0:01:29.302 --> 0:01:31.902 a very good sign. But first, Mia Friedman. 0:01:32.302 --> 0:01:35.062 In case you missed it, Susan Lee has been elected 0:01:35.102 --> 0:01:38.382 the first woman to ever lead the Liberal Party. She 0:01:38.502 --> 0:01:42.422 defeated challenger Angus Taylor twenty nine to twenty five in 0:01:42.462 --> 0:01:45.782 the battle to replace Peter Dutton as opposition leader after 0:01:45.822 --> 0:01:49.742 the party's devastating election loss. Sounds a little bit like 0:01:49.782 --> 0:01:52.982 a shit skirt hole, just like Thereasa May war in 0:01:53.022 --> 0:01:56.342 the UK. Can you revisit what that means? 0:01:56.942 --> 0:02:01.982 Yes. Back in twenty sixteen, after the massive Brexit loss 0:02:02.102 --> 0:02:05.502 in the UK, nobody wanted to be the leader of 0:02:05.582 --> 0:02:08.302 the Conservative Party because they're in complete disarray. The people 0:02:08.341 --> 0:02:11.102 who'd campaigned four breaks it didn't want to be responsible 0:02:11.142 --> 0:02:13.181 for the mess of getting it done. The people who 0:02:13.262 --> 0:02:15.902 campaigned against it, which was the sitting Prime Minister at 0:02:15.942 --> 0:02:19.181 the time, David Cameron, obviously were humiliated. So no one 0:02:19.222 --> 0:02:22.222 wanted that job until Theresa May put her hand up 0:02:22.342 --> 0:02:24.742 and we discussed at the time how it was kind 0:02:24.782 --> 0:02:27.341 of like she'd got a lot of shit on her 0:02:27.342 --> 0:02:30.702 skirt and she was going to have to be spending 0:02:30.742 --> 0:02:33.422 a whole lot of time trying to clean it off 0:02:33.742 --> 0:02:36.222 as more and more people piled more shit onto her. 0:02:36.262 --> 0:02:39.262 And that is how we came to the shitskirt analogy. 0:02:39.542 --> 0:02:42.222 This does feel a bit like a shit skirt moment 0:02:42.462 --> 0:02:46.582 because the Liberals have just had a historic defeat. They 0:02:46.582 --> 0:02:49.582 are so reduced in the Parliament, Labor have more than 0:02:49.582 --> 0:02:53.102 twice as many seats, so much to celebrate in the 0:02:53.181 --> 0:02:56.422 female leader, but work cut out Jesse. 0:02:56.902 --> 0:02:59.142 Yeah, a lot of people were talking about the glass cliff. 0:02:59.382 --> 0:03:03.102 People talk about the glass ceiling that women face, which. 0:03:02.942 --> 0:03:05.422 She has broken through. Is the first female leader of 0:03:05.462 --> 0:03:06.181 the Liberal Party? 0:03:06.302 --> 0:03:08.262 Yes, And the glass cliff is the idea, we'll put 0:03:08.262 --> 0:03:10.901 you in a position of power just to what you 0:03:11.181 --> 0:03:14.061 fall off. And I don't think that's the whole story here, 0:03:14.102 --> 0:03:19.022 because she was next in line, really like in terms 0:03:19.062 --> 0:03:22.102 of she was deputy, it's not ridiculous that this would 0:03:22.142 --> 0:03:24.382 be a job that she takes. 0:03:24.662 --> 0:03:27.302 And to be clear, the idea that a woman might 0:03:27.342 --> 0:03:30.262 be handled a shitskirt is not like denigrating the woman. 0:03:30.382 --> 0:03:32.781 It's not like saying that she didn't deserve it. It's 0:03:32.862 --> 0:03:36.822 just that sometimes establishments suddenly seem to decide that a 0:03:36.862 --> 0:03:40.662 female leader or sea would be a great idea just 0:03:40.742 --> 0:03:41.662 when everything. 0:03:41.382 --> 0:03:45.862 Shit because Julie Bishop, remember was the deputy leader and 0:03:46.102 --> 0:03:48.302 didn't get the job when it went to Scott Morrison, 0:03:48.382 --> 0:03:51.582 and many people say that was the beginning of the end, 0:03:51.742 --> 0:03:55.022 certainly for the Liberal Party's reputation with women. 0:03:55.462 --> 0:03:58.462 Yes, so years ago, I think it was like twenty fifteen, 0:03:58.502 --> 0:04:02.142 the Liberal Party established a target for how many women 0:04:02.182 --> 0:04:04.062 they wanted to get too politics because the Labor Party 0:04:04.062 --> 0:04:07.062 did this a long time ago. And now, of course 0:04:07.342 --> 0:04:10.182 we are having a historic moment with more women in 0:04:10.382 --> 0:04:13.662 Parliament and more women in the Cabinet than ever before, 0:04:13.702 --> 0:04:16.702 which is really exciting. But they set this target and 0:04:16.861 --> 0:04:20.102 were very much against quotas and they've not kept themselves 0:04:20.301 --> 0:04:24.061 accountable to those targets at all. And last election in 0:04:24.101 --> 0:04:27.181 twenty twenty two they had their worst result in thirty 0:04:27.262 --> 0:04:30.782 years for female representation. Friend of the Pod Charlotte Morlock 0:04:30.861 --> 0:04:33.821 has written a great deal about this, and she says 0:04:33.861 --> 0:04:38.021 that most Liberal politicians are men. I think over about 0:04:38.061 --> 0:04:41.582 sixty and the voters in Australia, the average voter is 0:04:41.582 --> 0:04:43.501 a thirty seven year old female and they're not seeing 0:04:43.501 --> 0:04:46.701 themselves represented by this party at all. She's actually put 0:04:46.741 --> 0:04:50.821 together a petition and it's putting pressure on the Liberal 0:04:50.861 --> 0:04:55.342 Party to go, let's introduce some gender quotas. Regardless of 0:04:55.342 --> 0:04:57.741 how you vote, if you are not about the Liberal Party, 0:04:57.821 --> 0:04:59.821 if you would never in a million years vote for them. 0:05:00.181 --> 0:05:03.741 For a thriving democracy, what we want is equal representation 0:05:04.101 --> 0:05:06.821 and we want a competitive democracy. And what we've seen 0:05:06.861 --> 0:05:09.822 with the Liberal Party going further and further right them 0:05:09.861 --> 0:05:12.662 to represent their electorates. And there are Liberal women who 0:05:12.702 --> 0:05:14.741 have tried to put their hands up and so it'll 0:05:14.782 --> 0:05:19.141 be interesting to see if they actually introduce a quota. 0:05:19.222 --> 0:05:21.981 Maybe Susan Lee is the first step to having more 0:05:22.022 --> 0:05:23.021 female representation. 0:05:23.981 --> 0:05:26.342 Also, in case you missed it, you need to put 0:05:26.342 --> 0:05:29.342 some tape over your mouth? Yes, you do. Everywhere I 0:05:29.381 --> 0:05:32.421 look at the moment, there is a prominent and influential 0:05:32.462 --> 0:05:36.741 woman mouth taping. Most recently, I saw Sally Obermeina on 0:05:36.782 --> 0:05:39.501 Instagram saying that putting tape over her mouth at night 0:05:39.741 --> 0:05:42.061 had meant that she wakes up more energized every day. 0:05:42.061 --> 0:05:44.502 That she's sleeping better than ever. And then, of course 0:05:44.541 --> 0:05:47.021 there's my mate Gwynneth, who says, the first thing she 0:05:47.101 --> 0:05:49.582 has to do in the morning is basically on block 0:05:49.782 --> 0:05:50.782 all her orifices. 0:05:51.301 --> 0:05:53.701 I wake up, I take off my mouth tape, my 0:05:53.941 --> 0:05:56.181 mouth earpl my mouth taping. 0:05:56.541 --> 0:05:58.941 Oh my god, I gotta call you the what. 0:05:59.741 --> 0:06:02.141 Oh yeah, I think it looks like such bullshit. 0:06:02.381 --> 0:06:03.741 I'll send you a bunch of research. 0:06:03.981 --> 0:06:04.621 It's so good. 0:06:04.902 --> 0:06:07.741 She goes on, say, mouth tape, IM ask air plugs. 0:06:07.782 --> 0:06:09.941 She basically is like when she goes to bed, she 0:06:09.981 --> 0:06:12.821 has to block herself off from the entire world. Guys, 0:06:12.861 --> 0:06:15.181 are we trying it? Are we ready to mouth tape? 0:06:15.582 --> 0:06:18.981 It's an interesting theory. I listened to Norman Swan talk 0:06:19.022 --> 0:06:22.061 about it, and a lot of sentists and health experts 0:06:22.101 --> 0:06:24.662 have poop pooed a bit because they say, if you 0:06:24.702 --> 0:06:27.141 are a mouth breather, if you go to bed and 0:06:27.541 --> 0:06:29.941 you're finding that you breathe through your mouth all night, 0:06:30.501 --> 0:06:32.821 there's probably a reason for that, and that might be 0:06:32.902 --> 0:06:35.261 that your nose is blocked, in which case, if you're 0:06:35.662 --> 0:06:41.222 covering your mouth, then it could affect oxygen supply. If 0:06:41.222 --> 0:06:43.462 you're suddenly putting all this pressure on your nose, so 0:06:43.501 --> 0:06:46.501 it's definitely not advisable for everyone. 0:06:46.621 --> 0:06:49.302 Couldn't do it if you had a cold, No, exactly right, 0:06:49.381 --> 0:06:51.462 well allergy do it if you wanted to kiss someone. 0:06:52.022 --> 0:06:58.061 No, But there is this growing field of like health 0:06:58.101 --> 0:07:03.381 and wellness focused around breathing and how we're all doing 0:07:03.462 --> 0:07:07.861 it wrong. So apparently we're breathing too much a minute. 0:07:08.262 --> 0:07:10.182 Someone told me once that you meant to breathe like 0:07:10.262 --> 0:07:12.742 twelve times a minute. I reckon, I'm breathing like forty 0:07:12.782 --> 0:07:13.542 two times a minute. 0:07:13.582 --> 0:07:15.782 I'm thinking about it now, I'm like thinking, how many 0:07:15.821 --> 0:07:16.662 times am I breathing? 0:07:16.902 --> 0:07:19.502 We've evolved, and it's to do with the fact that 0:07:19.502 --> 0:07:22.662 we eat softer foods and a bunch of other things, 0:07:22.702 --> 0:07:25.381 where our jaws are just wired differently and our airways 0:07:25.422 --> 0:07:28.021 have gotten smaller. This is what everyone says, right, and 0:07:28.182 --> 0:07:33.462 ancient civilizations knew the importance of breathing for stress, for relaxation, 0:07:33.782 --> 0:07:36.982 for all of the things and being alive. Exactly, we've 0:07:37.022 --> 0:07:39.662 lost the art, so we need to be retrained in breathing, 0:07:39.702 --> 0:07:42.302 and I think mouth tape is a part of that. 0:07:42.381 --> 0:07:44.742 Mayor this feels like something you'll be doing literally tonight. 0:07:44.982 --> 0:07:47.102 Well, I'm excited that there's another thing that I can 0:07:47.142 --> 0:07:50.941 do yep, before bed. I mean, crikey, I already wear 0:07:50.941 --> 0:07:54.982 a mouthguard, so you know I've already got stuff going 0:07:55.022 --> 0:07:57.622 on in my mouth. I'm not an ear plug or 0:07:57.622 --> 0:08:01.021 an eye mask person. I don't know whether it's a 0:08:01.062 --> 0:08:04.302 hangover from having little kids, but I always feel like 0:08:04.342 --> 0:08:06.461 I need to be alert to know what's going on 0:08:07.302 --> 0:08:10.302 in the house. Not that that's got anything. Maybe I 0:08:10.342 --> 0:08:11.901 don't want to take my mouth because I might have 0:08:11.902 --> 0:08:13.941 something to say in the middle of the night. Apparently 0:08:14.022 --> 0:08:16.261 last night I got up to go to the toilet, 0:08:16.381 --> 0:08:19.742 and apparently on the way back to bed, I said 0:08:19.742 --> 0:08:22.982 to the dog, I love you, Belle. I was not 0:08:23.102 --> 0:08:24.982 even aware of that I said that out loud, but 0:08:25.302 --> 0:08:28.261 it woke up my husband. So yeah, no, I won't 0:08:28.342 --> 0:08:30.542 be mouth taping. Do you just use like reggular, use 0:08:30.662 --> 0:08:31.502 like a band. 0:08:31.182 --> 0:08:33.902 Aid, or you need special mouth tape? So it's something 0:08:33.942 --> 0:08:36.222 else you to buy me. Oh, which is fine obviously 0:08:36.662 --> 0:08:38.822 given that all the trendy people are into it. I'm 0:08:38.822 --> 0:08:41.462 sure that there are degrees of cool mouth tape and 0:08:41.462 --> 0:08:44.381 on cool, but a lot of people say it really 0:08:44.462 --> 0:08:46.542 helps you sleep, you know, I've got issues with that. 0:08:46.622 --> 0:08:49.102 I reckon I will be mouth taping in a hot minute. 0:08:49.542 --> 0:08:53.262 The internet is accusing everyone of being a narcissist this week, 0:08:53.302 --> 0:08:56.582 and we'd like to know what one actually is. You 0:08:56.622 --> 0:08:59.622 may have seen the headlines about Abby Chatfield upset on 0:08:59.662 --> 0:09:03.622 Instagram about a number of things that Clementine Ford has 0:09:03.662 --> 0:09:08.222 said about her. These are two sort of prominent online personalities. 0:09:08.702 --> 0:09:12.142 Clementine Ford currently said that Abby is a narcissist, and 0:09:12.222 --> 0:09:14.302 Abby said that was very upsetting to her because that's 0:09:14.342 --> 0:09:16.222 what an ex used to call her, and so she 0:09:16.262 --> 0:09:19.102 asked her therapist if she was one, and her therapist 0:09:19.102 --> 0:09:22.982 said no. Anyway, we aren't waiting into that online drama 0:09:23.022 --> 0:09:25.342 because we're not stupid. But one of the top stories 0:09:25.342 --> 0:09:27.862 on Mum and mea this week was about women who 0:09:27.902 --> 0:09:31.622 realized their mothers were narcissists. Happy Mother's Day. That's a 0:09:31.622 --> 0:09:34.142 good thing to put the card. You may have noticed. 0:09:34.142 --> 0:09:35.982 I don't know if you guys have noticed, but people 0:09:36.022 --> 0:09:39.222 seem to be diagnosing other people with narcissism at a 0:09:39.222 --> 0:09:42.422 fairly alarming rate. So the question is, is everyone suddenly 0:09:42.462 --> 0:09:45.662 a narcissist or is the term being overused? 0:09:45.982 --> 0:09:48.902 Jesse Well there's actually a really interesting theory I read 0:09:48.902 --> 0:09:53.022 from a doctor who said that the thing about certified narcissists, 0:09:53.182 --> 0:09:57.462 as in people with narcissistic personality disorder as defined by 0:09:57.462 --> 0:09:59.462 the DSM, and we'll get to the definition of that, 0:09:59.822 --> 0:10:01.622 but the thing about them is that they can be 0:10:01.822 --> 0:10:05.702 very charismatic and very attractive, and therefore might actually pro 0:10:05.782 --> 0:10:08.462 create more, which means that we may be living in 0:10:08.502 --> 0:10:11.342 a world that has more narcissists than ever before. It 0:10:11.422 --> 0:10:15.502 might be a trait that is evolutionarily rewarded and therefore 0:10:15.702 --> 0:10:19.902 is more widespread. I don't think it would happen this quickly, 0:10:19.942 --> 0:10:22.782 but it was an interesting theory. I think the reason 0:10:22.822 --> 0:10:25.662 we're hearing it more and more is because calling someone 0:10:25.782 --> 0:10:30.342 a narcissist is a way of turning their identity into 0:10:30.382 --> 0:10:35.102 this static thing and dismissing them in a way that 0:10:35.182 --> 0:10:38.902 makes them totally irredeemable, because of course we all behave 0:10:39.102 --> 0:10:43.862 in ways that are narcissistic, and psychologists will say, the 0:10:43.902 --> 0:10:46.902 trait of narcissism exists on a spectrum, and we are 0:10:46.982 --> 0:10:50.862 all there. We all have ego that exists within us, 0:10:50.902 --> 0:10:54.781 and you know, all the time we act like narcissists. 0:10:55.342 --> 0:10:57.822 It's less than one percent of the population that is 0:10:58.142 --> 0:11:03.382 thought to be actual narcissists, and of those, seventy five 0:11:03.542 --> 0:11:06.502 percent are thought to be men. So it's something that's 0:11:06.542 --> 0:11:08.582 diagnosed a lot more in men than women, and it 0:11:08.742 --> 0:11:12.862 looks very different in men than women. Holly, do you 0:11:12.902 --> 0:11:13.662 think you know any? 0:11:13.902 --> 0:11:18.502 I do. I also think although it's become very fashionable 0:11:18.542 --> 0:11:21.822 for women in particular, Sale, my ex was definitely a narcissist. 0:11:22.542 --> 0:11:25.782 There's a real community of people who believe that narcissists 0:11:25.982 --> 0:11:29.141 have damaged their relationships, whether it's their romantic ones or 0:11:29.142 --> 0:11:32.622 their familiar ones. As you said me about mothers. I 0:11:32.662 --> 0:11:36.702 interviewed a woman called Margie Bowden who is a narcissism expert. 0:11:36.742 --> 0:11:38.982 She has so many followers. She is so but she's 0:11:38.982 --> 0:11:42.982 an Australian woman and she focuses very much on narcissism 0:11:43.062 --> 0:11:43.982 and relationships. 0:11:44.062 --> 0:11:47.142 And you're in that relationship, you just you know, I 0:11:47.262 --> 0:11:50.462 know that they love me. You know, we live in hope. 0:11:50.502 --> 0:11:54.022 Hope is very powerful and often when you are in that, 0:11:54.862 --> 0:11:58.702 in that early stage, you will have friends, You will 0:11:58.742 --> 0:12:01.302 have people saying what are you doing? Can't you see 0:12:01.502 --> 0:12:06.982 that they're no good? But you're now in an abuse cycle. 0:12:06.862 --> 0:12:12.342 And she says some of the signs are lying, gas lighting, cheating, manipulation, control. 0:12:12.502 --> 0:12:14.742 Now the thing is, it's not everybody who does those 0:12:14.782 --> 0:12:20.182 things is a narcissist, but narcissists will definitely do those things. 0:12:20.262 --> 0:12:22.262 And one of the things, to your point, Jesse, about 0:12:22.382 --> 0:12:24.342 once you've called somebody that, and the reason there's so 0:12:24.422 --> 0:12:28.902 much weight to it is it's incurable. Like a narcissist 0:12:29.022 --> 0:12:32.062 is a narcissist. We all have our narcissistic traits, as 0:12:32.102 --> 0:12:35.062 you've said, Jesse, and you can work towards working with 0:12:35.102 --> 0:12:37.422 them or suppressing them or anything like that, but a 0:12:37.462 --> 0:12:40.382 true narcissist is always going to be a narcissist. So 0:12:40.422 --> 0:12:42.862 a lot of Margie's work is about how do you 0:12:42.942 --> 0:12:45.422 copaent with a narcissist, How do you go to Mother's 0:12:45.462 --> 0:12:47.582 Day when your mum's a narcist? How do you deal 0:12:47.662 --> 0:12:48.062 with it? 0:12:48.382 --> 0:12:51.062 I know it seems like splitting hairs, but there's a 0:12:51.102 --> 0:12:56.062 difference between being narcissistic and having those traits and being 0:12:56.222 --> 0:13:00.142 a narcissist. One is sort of an adjective and one 0:13:00.222 --> 0:13:03.262 is a noun. The big thing that's happened online is 0:13:03.302 --> 0:13:07.781 that there's confusion between the traits of narcissism and the disorder. 0:13:07.942 --> 0:13:11.982 So people have started and labeling like selfish or arrogant 0:13:12.062 --> 0:13:17.342 or even annoying behavior as narcissism. But actual narcissistic personality 0:13:17.382 --> 0:13:21.182 disorder involves a persistent pattern of lack of empathy and 0:13:21.262 --> 0:13:25.902 grandiosity and exploitative behavior. And it has to be not 0:13:25.982 --> 0:13:29.222 just persistent but life disrupting. 0:13:29.582 --> 0:13:32.502 Yes, And they say that the thing about narcissists, and 0:13:32.262 --> 0:13:34.662 we know this because of the way that we colloquially 0:13:34.782 --> 0:13:37.142 use it, but it is all about them, right, that 0:13:37.262 --> 0:13:40.102 everybody and everything around them exists only to serve their needs. 0:13:40.102 --> 0:13:42.222 And I remember when I was talking to Margie the expert, 0:13:42.222 --> 0:13:44.542 I said, that sounds like a psychopath, and she said, 0:13:44.542 --> 0:13:48.342 there's a crucial difference. And psychopaths don't care what other 0:13:48.382 --> 0:13:51.062 people think of them. Narcissists really do. 0:13:51.502 --> 0:13:54.742 Yes, that's the difference exactly. And that's the difference a 0:13:54.782 --> 0:13:58.262 couple of I mean, you can't diagnose people with mental 0:13:58.262 --> 0:14:03.062 disorders from the outside. But two prominent examples that display 0:14:03.622 --> 0:14:09.662 not just narcissistic traits but narcissistic personality disorder symptoms are 0:14:09.702 --> 0:14:11.982 Kanye West and Donald Trump. 0:14:12.262 --> 0:14:15.822 I think TikTok co opting a lot of this language. 0:14:16.382 --> 0:14:19.382 Narcissism or you are a narcissist, has just become interchangeable 0:14:19.422 --> 0:14:23.182 with you are an asshole, and they are different things. 0:14:24.062 --> 0:14:29.542 But I wonder too if we're seeing more narcissistic behavior 0:14:29.582 --> 0:14:33.102 because we live in a culture that so clearly rewards it. 0:14:33.462 --> 0:14:38.782 So vanity, self centeredness, heightened sense of self worth, visions 0:14:38.782 --> 0:14:43.902 of their own grandiosity, probably incredibly ambitious, undeterred by rejection, 0:14:44.422 --> 0:14:48.662 craving attention, highly motivated. All of those things will make 0:14:48.702 --> 0:14:51.262 you a winner in the world we live in, and 0:14:51.302 --> 0:14:56.222 in fact, social morality can be a hurdle or a 0:14:56.302 --> 0:14:59.822 hindrance to what we see as capitalist's success. So if 0:14:59.902 --> 0:15:03.062 you don't worry about any of those things, then you 0:15:03.142 --> 0:15:06.742 might rise and rise. But the irony to calling someone 0:15:06.782 --> 0:15:10.542 a narcissist online, it's like when someone reads a memoir 0:15:10.622 --> 0:15:14.182 and goes all they did is talk about themselves. It's like, yeah, 0:15:14.222 --> 0:15:17.462 the medium is a message, like we're all narcissists on 0:15:17.462 --> 0:15:20.222 our social media platforms because that's what the technology is 0:15:20.902 --> 0:15:23.742 demanding of us. And I know it. It's like such 0:15:23.782 --> 0:15:28.502 a basic primary school lesson, but you know, not weighing 0:15:28.542 --> 0:15:33.462 into any internet drama. But the second someone calls anyone 0:15:33.902 --> 0:15:39.022 a definitive name and stops playing the ball, but instead 0:15:39.062 --> 0:15:42.262 starts playing the person, you've lost me. And I just 0:15:42.302 --> 0:15:44.822 see so much of this all over my social media 0:15:44.862 --> 0:15:46.902 where you just throw out these terms. It must feel 0:15:46.902 --> 0:15:47.822 good to use. 0:15:47.742 --> 0:15:49.942 Because it's so reductive, isn't it and dismissive. 0:15:50.222 --> 0:15:52.382 Well, it always just undermines your argument as well. 0:15:52.542 --> 0:15:56.502 It's interesting how things have changed so much for gen 0:15:56.742 --> 0:15:59.582 X's I remember that the worst thing you could be 0:15:59.702 --> 0:16:03.702 at school and in Australia really is up yourself or vain. 0:16:03.982 --> 0:16:07.902 That was the biggest diss But you're right, Jesse, like 0:16:07.982 --> 0:16:12.022 in just a generation, we are now living in the 0:16:12.022 --> 0:16:16.782 world of the front facing camera where we're encouraged to 0:16:16.942 --> 0:16:22.422 just share our every thought, feeling, outfit, opinion with the world. 0:16:22.542 --> 0:16:25.742 And there's a whole category of people that do that 0:16:25.742 --> 0:16:27.542 that are very able to make a lot of money 0:16:27.582 --> 0:16:29.542 for it, and they're called influencers. And you know, I 0:16:29.542 --> 0:16:32.102 listened to us. Who cares what we think? Yep, here 0:16:32.142 --> 0:16:34.582 we are here talking about narcissism. Who cares what the 0:16:34.622 --> 0:16:37.582 three of us think? And we've been rewarded really well 0:16:37.582 --> 0:16:39.702 for it. So I did google whether I was a 0:16:39.782 --> 0:16:40.542 narcissist once? 0:16:40.782 --> 0:16:41.942 What made you google it? 0:16:42.142 --> 0:16:44.662 Because someone called me one? Someone who knew me called 0:16:44.662 --> 0:16:46.782 me one, and then afterwards they apologized and said I 0:16:46.822 --> 0:16:49.422 was just being a dick and that's not fair. But 0:16:49.542 --> 0:16:52.342 what I discovered, much to my relief, is that if 0:16:52.382 --> 0:16:55.862 you google am I a narcissist, you're not a narcissist 0:16:55.902 --> 0:17:00.102 because narcissists aren't worried about being narcissists because they don't care. 0:17:00.422 --> 0:17:03.302 I reckon. I know one that comes to mind, and 0:17:03.342 --> 0:17:10.502 the sign for me is incredibly professionally successful, took risks, 0:17:11.022 --> 0:17:13.981 made decisions that would be very difficult to make if 0:17:14.061 --> 0:17:18.061 you had real social relationships with people, and left in 0:17:18.101 --> 0:17:21.782 the wake of that are disastrous personal relationships? 0:17:22.101 --> 0:17:22.461 Is it me? 0:17:23.462 --> 0:17:26.342 No, you have quite good relationships with the people around Jamana. 0:17:26.942 --> 0:17:27.142 Yeah. 0:17:27.182 --> 0:17:30.622 I think I've definitely got narcissistic tendencies. I think in 0:17:30.702 --> 0:17:34.022 some ways, certainly, to get ahead in our industry, you 0:17:34.101 --> 0:17:37.542 have to be self focused a lot, probably more than 0:17:37.621 --> 0:17:40.381 is healthy. Jesus, I started a media company with my 0:17:40.422 --> 0:17:41.821 own name in it. 0:17:41.821 --> 0:17:46.222 It's the behavior you try and train your kids. 0:17:45.901 --> 0:17:48.181 Out of, particularly if you're English or Australian. 0:17:48.502 --> 0:17:48.702 Yeah. 0:17:48.742 --> 0:17:52.381 But also adolescents are by their very nature very narcissistic 0:17:52.462 --> 0:17:56.902 as a total right, like everything is literally around them 0:17:56.901 --> 0:17:58.821 and the way they see the world, and so much 0:17:58.861 --> 0:18:02.022 of parenting is constantly saying, think about what other people 0:18:02.141 --> 0:18:04.341 might think, see yourself through their eyes? How do you 0:18:04.341 --> 0:18:06.421 think that made them feel? How do you think? And 0:18:06.462 --> 0:18:09.382 it's like one of the things about the age will 0:18:09.422 --> 0:18:12.222 have in now, as you say, Jesse, which rewards narcisism 0:18:12.262 --> 0:18:16.022 a lot, is it extends the adolescent view of the world. 0:18:16.101 --> 0:18:18.461 It's like it is really just about you and what 0:18:18.502 --> 0:18:20.581 other people think about you. Because to the point about 0:18:20.702 --> 0:18:23.701 narcissists care about what other people think. It matters a 0:18:23.702 --> 0:18:26.261 great deal that they have high status and that people 0:18:26.341 --> 0:18:27.822 think they're amazing. 0:18:28.182 --> 0:18:31.821 In a moment, celebrity names and horrific testimonies, the court 0:18:31.901 --> 0:18:35.141 case that could land Sean Combs or p Diddy in 0:18:35.182 --> 0:18:36.302 prison full life. 0:18:40.462 --> 0:18:42.381 In case you missed it, men have a new Roman 0:18:42.381 --> 0:18:46.141 Empire and it's man versus gorilla, or should I say 0:18:46.302 --> 0:18:51.542 man versus one hundred gorillas? This bizarre question whether one 0:18:51.621 --> 0:18:55.221 hundred men could defeat a single adult male gorilla in 0:18:55.341 --> 0:18:59.581 hand to hand combat went very viral after mister bast 0:18:59.581 --> 0:19:02.302 tweeted about it, and suddenly everyone from your teenage nephew 0:19:02.341 --> 0:19:07.101 to your accountant has a passionate opinion about primate combat. 0:19:07.742 --> 0:19:10.302 Here is a little explanation of the question. 0:19:10.542 --> 0:19:14.022 It's a hypothetical question that sparked a huge debate on 0:19:14.061 --> 0:19:17.702 social media. Okay, so could one hundred man defeat one 0:19:17.782 --> 0:19:18.942 gorilla nfight? 0:19:19.381 --> 0:19:19.701 Okay? 0:19:19.861 --> 0:19:23.381 So the question was first, this is locker room conversation, Adriana. 0:19:23.502 --> 0:19:25.581 So it was thrown out there on x and has 0:19:25.942 --> 0:19:29.221 been showing up on Facebook, TikTok and read it. People 0:19:29.262 --> 0:19:32.181 seem to have some real opinions on the matter. 0:19:33.302 --> 0:19:35.821 Now let's talk strategy. I think this is very doable. 0:19:35.982 --> 0:19:38.821 If you guys are rush in on him at once, 0:19:38.942 --> 0:19:41.942 there's going to be at least ten of y'all that die, okay, 0:19:42.222 --> 0:19:43.861 And as long as you guys are okay with that, 0:19:43.942 --> 0:19:45.222 then I think you can take him down. 0:19:45.462 --> 0:19:48.341 What the gorilla would do to the first human man 0:19:48.502 --> 0:19:50.342 would be talked about for generations. 0:19:50.381 --> 0:19:53.262 Okay, it would be not ideal to watch. 0:19:53.341 --> 0:19:55.181 I'm going to be the first person to walk up 0:19:55.222 --> 0:19:57.262 to the gorilla, and as I get to it, I'm 0:19:57.262 --> 0:19:59.862 going to slowly turn around and switch teams. 0:20:00.222 --> 0:20:03.941 Wow, well this debate has taken over dinner tables and 0:20:04.022 --> 0:20:09.262 pub conversations and slack channels at work. And here's where 0:20:09.262 --> 0:20:12.781 it interesting. Gorillas are absolute units of raw power. They 0:20:12.782 --> 0:20:15.901 are three times stronger than humans. They can bench press 0:20:15.942 --> 0:20:18.262 around five hundred kilos, and they have jaws that could 0:20:18.341 --> 0:20:21.861 crush your skull like it's a grape. But humans have 0:20:21.982 --> 0:20:27.341 numbers and strategy and the endurance advantage. Gorillas, particularly silver 0:20:27.381 --> 0:20:30.061 back gorillas, they don't have a lot of endurance, so 0:20:30.422 --> 0:20:33.622 it's kind of brute force versus teamwork and planning. 0:20:33.742 --> 0:20:36.422 Jesse, I have a question, how do we know how 0:20:36.502 --> 0:20:40.181 much a gorilla can bench press? Is a gorilla sitting 0:20:40.182 --> 0:20:41.981 there in the zoo doing bench presses and we're just 0:20:42.022 --> 0:20:44.302 adding going to another one. 0:20:44.341 --> 0:20:48.262 This whole thing makes me think evolution never happened. We're 0:20:48.341 --> 0:20:51.181 just still back there. We're just still back there fighting 0:20:51.222 --> 0:20:51.581 the apes. 0:20:51.742 --> 0:20:54.182 I have a mental block in my brain that does 0:20:54.302 --> 0:20:57.861 not allow me to engage with this hypothetical. My husband 0:20:57.901 --> 0:20:59.742 is talking about it, people in my life talking about it, 0:21:00.061 --> 0:21:03.942 and I'm just like, but it wouldn't happen, And if 0:21:03.982 --> 0:21:06.101 it did happen, I don't. 0:21:05.861 --> 0:21:07.821 Know do you know what's interesting about this is that 0:21:07.901 --> 0:21:10.542