Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and warders
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3: I only get profoundly irritained or invested enough to care
Speaker 3: about people who are close to me. If I don't
Speaker 3: care at all, it's a sign that you're not important
Speaker 3: in my life. You know what I mean?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 1: No, I have strong feelings about lots of people who
Speaker 1: aren't important in who I've never met before.
Speaker 3: Hello, and welcome to Mamma Mia. Out loud what women
Speaker 3: are actually talking about on Wednesday, the fourteenth of May.
Speaker 3: I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm.
Speaker 5: Mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 3: And welcome to our chaotic on the Road recording. Hopefully
Speaker 3: you've been enjoying it this week and it continues because
Speaker 3: today we are in Brisbane and we will see you
Speaker 3: tonight out Louders on the show. There's a word being
Speaker 3: thrown around a lot on the internet this week, and
Speaker 3: it's narcissist. Why is everyone suddenly one? And if you
Speaker 3: have to google whether or not you are one? Is
Speaker 3: the answer clear? Also, the p Diddy trial started this
Speaker 3: week and the headlines are already grimmed. What's it all about?
Speaker 3: On which celebrities are feeling very nervous right now? And
Speaker 3: is it normal to hate your partner? There's a very
Speaker 3: respectable couples therapist who says yes, and that actually it's
Speaker 3: a very good sign. But first, Mia Friedman.
Speaker 1: In case you missed it, Susan Lee has been elected
Speaker 1: the first woman to ever lead the Liberal Party. She
Speaker 1: defeated challenger Angus Taylor twenty nine to twenty five in
Speaker 1: the battle to replace Peter Dutton as opposition leader after
Speaker 1: the party's devastating election loss. Sounds a little bit like
Speaker 1: a shit skirt hole, just like Thereasa May war in
Speaker 1: the UK. Can you revisit what that means?
Speaker 3: Yes. Back in twenty sixteen, after the massive Brexit loss
Speaker 3: in the UK, nobody wanted to be the leader of
Speaker 3: the Conservative Party because they're in complete disarray. The people
Speaker 3: who'd campaigned four breaks it didn't want to be responsible
Speaker 3: for the mess of getting it done. The people who
Speaker 3: campaigned against it, which was the sitting Prime Minister at
Speaker 3: the time, David Cameron, obviously were humiliated. So no one
Speaker 3: wanted that job until Theresa May put her hand up
Speaker 3: and we discussed at the time how it was kind
Speaker 3: of like she'd got a lot of shit on her
Speaker 3: skirt and she was going to have to be spending
Speaker 3: a whole lot of time trying to clean it off
Speaker 3: as more and more people piled more shit onto her.
Speaker 3: And that is how we came to the shitskirt analogy.
Speaker 3: This does feel a bit like a shit skirt moment
Speaker 3: because the Liberals have just had a historic defeat. They
Speaker 3: are so reduced in the Parliament, Labor have more than
Speaker 3: twice as many seats, so much to celebrate in the
Speaker 3: female leader, but work cut out Jesse.
Speaker 5: Yeah, a lot of people were talking about the glass cliff.
Speaker 5: People talk about the glass ceiling that women face, which.
Speaker 1: She has broken through. Is the first female leader of
Speaker 1: the Liberal Party?
Speaker 5: Yes, And the glass cliff is the idea, we'll put
Speaker 5: you in a position of power just to what you
Speaker 5: fall off. And I don't think that's the whole story here,
Speaker 5: because she was next in line, really like in terms
Speaker 5: of she was deputy, it's not ridiculous that this would
Speaker 5: be a job that she takes.
Speaker 3: And to be clear, the idea that a woman might
Speaker 3: be handled a shitskirt is not like denigrating the woman.
Speaker 3: It's not like saying that she didn't deserve it. It's
Speaker 3: just that sometimes establishments suddenly seem to decide that a
Speaker 3: female leader or sea would be a great idea just
Speaker 3: when everything.
Speaker 1: Shit because Julie Bishop, remember was the deputy leader and
Speaker 1: didn't get the job when it went to Scott Morrison,
Speaker 1: and many people say that was the beginning of the end,
Speaker 1: certainly for the Liberal Party's reputation with women.
Speaker 5: Yes, so years ago, I think it was like twenty fifteen,
Speaker 5: the Liberal Party established a target for how many women
Speaker 5: they wanted to get too politics because the Labor Party
Speaker 5: did this a long time ago. And now, of course
Speaker 5: we are having a historic moment with more women in
Speaker 5: Parliament and more women in the Cabinet than ever before,
Speaker 5: which is really exciting. But they set this target and
Speaker 5: were very much against quotas and they've not kept themselves
Speaker 5: accountable to those targets at all. And last election in
Speaker 5: twenty twenty two they had their worst result in thirty
Speaker 5: years for female representation. Friend of the Pod Charlotte Morlock
Speaker 5: has written a great deal about this, and she says
Speaker 5: that most Liberal politicians are men. I think over about
Speaker 5: sixty and the voters in Australia, the average voter is
Speaker 5: a thirty seven year old female and they're not seeing
Speaker 5: themselves represented by this party at all. She's actually put
Speaker 5: together a petition and it's putting pressure on the Liberal
Speaker 5: Party to go, let's introduce some gender quotas. Regardless of
Speaker 5: how you vote, if you are not about the Liberal Party,
Speaker 5: if you would never in a million years vote for them.
Speaker 5: For a thriving democracy, what we want is equal representation
Speaker 5: and we want a competitive democracy. And what we've seen
Speaker 5: with the Liberal Party going further and further right them
Speaker 5: to represent their electorates. And there are Liberal women who
Speaker 5: have tried to put their hands up and so it'll
Speaker 5: be interesting to see if they actually introduce a quota.
Speaker 5: Maybe Susan Lee is the first step to having more
Speaker 5: female representation.
Speaker 3: Also, in case you missed it, you need to put
Speaker 3: some tape over your mouth? Yes, you do. Everywhere I
Speaker 3: look at the moment, there is a prominent and influential
Speaker 3: woman mouth taping. Most recently, I saw Sally Obermeina on
Speaker 3: Instagram saying that putting tape over her mouth at night
Speaker 3: had meant that she wakes up more energized every day.
Speaker 3: That she's sleeping better than ever. And then, of course
Speaker 3: there's my mate Gwynneth, who says, the first thing she
Speaker 3: has to do in the morning is basically on block
Speaker 3: all her orifices.
Speaker 1: I wake up, I take off my mouth tape, my
Speaker 1: mouth earpl my mouth taping.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, I gotta call you the what.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, I think it looks like such bullshit.
Speaker 4: I'll send you a bunch of research.
Speaker 1: It's so good.
Speaker 3: She goes on, say, mouth tape, IM ask air plugs.
Speaker 3: She basically is like when she goes to bed, she
Speaker 3: has to block herself off from the entire world. Guys,
Speaker 3: are we trying it? Are we ready to mouth tape?
Speaker 5: It's an interesting theory. I listened to Norman Swan talk
Speaker 5: about it, and a lot of sentists and health experts
Speaker 5: have poop pooed a bit because they say, if you
Speaker 5: are a mouth breather, if you go to bed and
Speaker 5: you're finding that you breathe through your mouth all night,
Speaker 5: there's probably a reason for that, and that might be
Speaker 5: that your nose is blocked, in which case, if you're
Speaker 5: covering your mouth, then it could affect oxygen supply. If
Speaker 5: you're suddenly putting all this pressure on your nose, so
Speaker 5: it's definitely not advisable for everyone.
Speaker 1: Couldn't do it if you had a cold, No, exactly right,
Speaker 1: well allergy do it if you wanted to kiss someone.
Speaker 5: No, But there is this growing field of like health
Speaker 5: and wellness focused around breathing and how we're all doing
Speaker 5: it wrong. So apparently we're breathing too much a minute.
Speaker 5: Someone told me once that you meant to breathe like
Speaker 5: twelve times a minute. I reckon, I'm breathing like forty
Speaker 5: two times a minute.
Speaker 3: I'm thinking about it now, I'm like thinking, how many
Speaker 3: times am I breathing?
Speaker 5: We've evolved, and it's to do with the fact that
Speaker 5: we eat softer foods and a bunch of other things,
Speaker 5: where our jaws are just wired differently and our airways
Speaker 5: have gotten smaller. This is what everyone says, right, and
Speaker 5: ancient civilizations knew the importance of breathing for stress, for relaxation,
Speaker 5: for all of the things and being alive. Exactly, we've
Speaker 5: lost the art, so we need to be retrained in breathing,
Speaker 5: and I think mouth tape is a part of that.
Speaker 5: Mayor this feels like something you'll be doing literally tonight.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm excited that there's another thing that I can
Speaker 1: do yep, before bed. I mean, crikey, I already wear
Speaker 1: a mouthguard, so you know I've already got stuff going
Speaker 1: on in my mouth. I'm not an ear plug or
Speaker 1: an eye mask person. I don't know whether it's a
Speaker 1: hangover from having little kids, but I always feel like
Speaker 1: I need to be alert to know what's going on
Speaker 1: in the house. Not that that's got anything. Maybe I
Speaker 1: don't want to take my mouth because I might have
Speaker 1: something to say in the middle of the night. Apparently
Speaker 1: last night I got up to go to the toilet,
Speaker 1: and apparently on the way back to bed, I said
Speaker 1: to the dog, I love you, Belle. I was not
Speaker 1: even aware of that I said that out loud, but
Speaker 1: it woke up my husband. So yeah, no, I won't
Speaker 1: be mouth taping. Do you just use like reggular, use
Speaker 1: like a band.
Speaker 3: Aid, or you need special mouth tape? So it's something
Speaker 3: else you to buy me. Oh, which is fine obviously
Speaker 3: given that all the trendy people are into it. I'm
Speaker 3: sure that there are degrees of cool mouth tape and
Speaker 3: on cool, but a lot of people say it really
Speaker 3: helps you sleep, you know, I've got issues with that.
Speaker 3: I reckon I will be mouth taping in a hot minute.
Speaker 1: The internet is accusing everyone of being a narcissist this week,
Speaker 1: and we'd like to know what one actually is. You
Speaker 1: may have seen the headlines about Abby Chatfield upset on
Speaker 1: Instagram about a number of things that Clementine Ford has
Speaker 1: said about her. These are two sort of prominent online personalities.
Speaker 1: Clementine Ford currently said that Abby is a narcissist, and
Speaker 1: Abby said that was very upsetting to her because that's
Speaker 1: what an ex used to call her, and so she
Speaker 1: asked her therapist if she was one, and her therapist
Speaker 1: said no. Anyway, we aren't waiting into that online drama
Speaker 1: because we're not stupid. But one of the top stories
Speaker 1: on Mum and mea this week was about women who
Speaker 1: realized their mothers were narcissists. Happy Mother's Day. That's a
Speaker 1: good thing to put the card. You may have noticed.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys have noticed, but people
Speaker 1: seem to be diagnosing other people with narcissism at a
Speaker 1: fairly alarming rate. So the question is, is everyone suddenly
Speaker 1: a narcissist or is the term being overused?
Speaker 5: Jesse Well there's actually a really interesting theory I read
Speaker 5: from a doctor who said that the thing about certified narcissists,
Speaker 5: as in people with narcissistic personality disorder as defined by
Speaker 5: the DSM, and we'll get to the definition of that,
Speaker 5: but the thing about them is that they can be
Speaker 5: very charismatic and very attractive, and therefore might actually pro
Speaker 5: create more, which means that we may be living in
Speaker 5: a world that has more narcissists than ever before. It
Speaker 5: might be a trait that is evolutionarily rewarded and therefore
Speaker 5: is more widespread. I don't think it would happen this quickly,
Speaker 5: but it was an interesting theory. I think the reason
Speaker 5: we're hearing it more and more is because calling someone
Speaker 5: a narcissist is a way of turning their identity into
Speaker 5: this static thing and dismissing them in a way that
Speaker 5: makes them totally irredeemable, because of course we all behave
Speaker 5: in ways that are narcissistic, and psychologists will say, the
Speaker 5: trait of narcissism exists on a spectrum, and we are
Speaker 5: all there. We all have ego that exists within us,
Speaker 5: and you know, all the time we act like narcissists.
Speaker 5: It's less than one percent of the population that is
Speaker 5: thought to be actual narcissists, and of those, seventy five
Speaker 5: percent are thought to be men. So it's something that's
Speaker 5: diagnosed a lot more in men than women, and it
Speaker 5: looks very different in men than women. Holly, do you
Speaker 5: think you know any?
Speaker 3: I do. I also think although it's become very fashionable
Speaker 3: for women in particular, Sale, my ex was definitely a narcissist.
Speaker 3: There's a real community of people who believe that narcissists
Speaker 3: have damaged their relationships, whether it's their romantic ones or
Speaker 3: their familiar ones. As you said me about mothers. I
Speaker 3: interviewed a woman called Margie Bowden who is a narcissism expert.
Speaker 3: She has so many followers. She is so but she's
Speaker 3: an Australian woman and she focuses very much on narcissism
Speaker 3: and relationships.
Speaker 2: And you're in that relationship, you just you know, I
Speaker 2: know that they love me. You know, we live in hope.
Speaker 2: Hope is very powerful and often when you are in that,
Speaker 2: in that early stage, you will have friends, You will
Speaker 2: have people saying what are you doing? Can't you see
Speaker 2: that they're no good? But you're now in an abuse cycle.
Speaker 3: And she says some of the signs are lying, gas lighting, cheating, manipulation, control.
Speaker 3: Now the thing is, it's not everybody who does those
Speaker 3: things is a narcissist, but narcissists will definitely do those things.
Speaker 3: And one of the things, to your point, Jesse, about
Speaker 3: once you've called somebody that, and the reason there's so
Speaker 3: much weight to it is it's incurable. Like a narcissist
Speaker 3: is a narcissist. We all have our narcissistic traits, as
Speaker 3: you've said, Jesse, and you can work towards working with
Speaker 3: them or suppressing them or anything like that, but a
Speaker 3: true narcissist is always going to be a narcissist. So
Speaker 3: a lot of Margie's work is about how do you
Speaker 3: copaent with a narcissist, How do you go to Mother's
Speaker 3: Day when your mum's a narcist? How do you deal
Speaker 3: with it?
Speaker 1: I know it seems like splitting hairs, but there's a
Speaker 1: difference between being narcissistic and having those traits and being
Speaker 1: a narcissist. One is sort of an adjective and one
Speaker 1: is a noun. The big thing that's happened online is
Speaker 1: that there's confusion between the traits of narcissism and the disorder.
Speaker 1: So people have started and labeling like selfish or arrogant
Speaker 1: or even annoying behavior as narcissism. But actual narcissistic personality
Speaker 1: disorder involves a persistent pattern of lack of empathy and
Speaker 1: grandiosity and exploitative behavior. And it has to be not
Speaker 1: just persistent but life disrupting.
Speaker 3: Yes, And they say that the thing about narcissists, and
Speaker 3: we know this because of the way that we colloquially
Speaker 3: use it, but it is all about them, right, that
Speaker 3: everybody and everything around them exists only to serve their needs.
Speaker 3: And I remember when I was talking to Margie the expert,
Speaker 3: I said, that sounds like a psychopath, and she said,
Speaker 3: there's a crucial difference. And psychopaths don't care what other
Speaker 3: people think of them. Narcissists really do.
Speaker 1: Yes, that's the difference exactly. And that's the difference a
Speaker 1: couple of I mean, you can't diagnose people with mental
Speaker 1: disorders from the outside. But two prominent examples that display
Speaker 1: not just narcissistic traits but narcissistic personality disorder symptoms are
Speaker 1: Kanye West and Donald Trump.
Speaker 5: I think TikTok co opting a lot of this language.
Speaker 5: Narcissism or you are a narcissist, has just become interchangeable
Speaker 5: with you are an asshole, and they are different things.
Speaker 5: But I wonder too if we're seeing more narcissistic behavior
Speaker 5: because we live in a culture that so clearly rewards it.
Speaker 5: So vanity, self centeredness, heightened sense of self worth, visions
Speaker 5: of their own grandiosity, probably incredibly ambitious, undeterred by rejection,
Speaker 5: craving attention, highly motivated. All of those things will make
Speaker 5: you a winner in the world we live in, and
Speaker 5: in fact, social morality can be a hurdle or a
Speaker 5: hindrance to what we see as capitalist's success. So if
Speaker 5: you don't worry about any of those things, then you
Speaker 5: might rise and rise. But the irony to calling someone
Speaker 5: a narcissist online, it's like when someone reads a memoir
Speaker 5: and goes all they did is talk about themselves. It's like, yeah,
Speaker 5: the medium is a message, like we're all narcissists on
Speaker 5: our social media platforms because that's what the technology is
Speaker 5: demanding of us. And I know it. It's like such
Speaker 5: a basic primary school lesson, but you know, not weighing
Speaker 5: into any internet drama. But the second someone calls anyone
Speaker 5: a definitive name and stops playing the ball, but instead
Speaker 5: starts playing the person, you've lost me. And I just
Speaker 5: see so much of this all over my social media
Speaker 5: where you just throw out these terms. It must feel
Speaker 5: good to use.
Speaker 1: Because it's so reductive, isn't it and dismissive.
Speaker 5: Well, it always just undermines your argument as well.
Speaker 1: It's interesting how things have changed so much for gen
Speaker 1: X's I remember that the worst thing you could be
Speaker 1: at school and in Australia really is up yourself or vain.
Speaker 1: That was the biggest diss But you're right, Jesse, like
Speaker 1: in just a generation, we are now living in the
Speaker 1: world of the front facing camera where we're encouraged to
Speaker 1: just share our every thought, feeling, outfit, opinion with the world.
Speaker 1: And there's a whole category of people that do that
Speaker 1: that are very able to make a lot of money
Speaker 1: for it, and they're called influencers. And you know, I
Speaker 1: listened to us. Who cares what we think? Yep, here
Speaker 1: we are here talking about narcissism. Who cares what the
Speaker 1: three of us think? And we've been rewarded really well
Speaker 1: for it. So I did google whether I was a
Speaker 1: narcissist once?
Speaker 5: What made you google it?
Speaker 1: Because someone called me one? Someone who knew me called
Speaker 1: me one, and then afterwards they apologized and said I
Speaker 1: was just being a dick and that's not fair. But
Speaker 1: what I discovered, much to my relief, is that if
Speaker 1: you google am I a narcissist, you're not a narcissist
Speaker 1: because narcissists aren't worried about being narcissists because they don't care.
Speaker 5: I reckon. I know one that comes to mind, and
Speaker 5: the sign for me is incredibly professionally successful, took risks,
Speaker 5: made decisions that would be very difficult to make if
Speaker 5: you had real social relationships with people, and left in
Speaker 5: the wake of that are disastrous personal relationships?
Speaker 4: Is it me?
Speaker 5: No, you have quite good relationships with the people around Jamana.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think I've definitely got narcissistic tendencies. I think in
Speaker 1: some ways, certainly, to get ahead in our industry, you
Speaker 1: have to be self focused a lot, probably more than
Speaker 1: is healthy. Jesus, I started a media company with my
Speaker 1: own name in it.
Speaker 3: It's the behavior you try and train your kids.
Speaker 1: Out of, particularly if you're English or Australian.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 3: But also adolescents are by their very nature very narcissistic
Speaker 3: as a total right, like everything is literally around them
Speaker 3: and the way they see the world, and so much
Speaker 3: of parenting is constantly saying, think about what other people
Speaker 3: might think, see yourself through their eyes? How do you
Speaker 3: think that made them feel? How do you think? And
Speaker 3: it's like one of the things about the age will
Speaker 3: have in now, as you say, Jesse, which rewards narcisism
Speaker 3: a lot, is it extends the adolescent view of the world.
Speaker 3: It's like it is really just about you and what
Speaker 3: other people think about you. Because to the point about
Speaker 3: narcissists care about what other people think. It matters a
Speaker 3: great deal that they have high status and that people
Speaker 3: think they're amazing.
Speaker 5: In a moment, celebrity names and horrific testimonies, the court
Speaker 5: case that could land Sean Combs or p Diddy in
Speaker 5: prison full life.
Speaker 1: In case you missed it, men have a new Roman
Speaker 1: Empire and it's man versus gorilla, or should I say
Speaker 1: man versus one hundred gorillas? This bizarre question whether one
Speaker 1: hundred men could defeat a single adult male gorilla in
Speaker 1: hand to hand combat went very viral after mister bast
Speaker 1: tweeted about it, and suddenly everyone from your teenage nephew
Speaker 1: to your accountant has a passionate opinion about primate combat.
Speaker 1: Here is a little explanation of the question.
Speaker 7: It's a hypothetical question that sparked a huge debate on
Speaker 7: social media. Okay, so could one hundred man defeat one
Speaker 7: gorilla nfight?
Speaker 6: Okay?
Speaker 7: So the question was first, this is locker room conversation, Adriana.
Speaker 7: So it was thrown out there on x and has
Speaker 7: been showing up on Facebook, TikTok and read it. People
Speaker 7: seem to have some real opinions on the matter.
Speaker 8: Now let's talk strategy. I think this is very doable.
Speaker 8: If you guys are rush in on him at once,
Speaker 8: there's going to be at least ten of y'all that die, okay,
Speaker 8: And as long as you guys are okay with that,
Speaker 8: then I think you can take him down.
Speaker 7: What the gorilla would do to the first human man
Speaker 7: would be talked about for generations.
Speaker 6: Okay, it would be not ideal to watch.
Speaker 7: I'm going to be the first person to walk up
Speaker 7: to the gorilla, and as I get to it, I'm
Speaker 7: going to slowly turn around and switch teams.
Speaker 1: Wow, well this debate has taken over dinner tables and
Speaker 1: pub conversations and slack channels at work. And here's where
Speaker 1: it interesting. Gorillas are absolute units of raw power. They
Speaker 1: are three times stronger than humans. They can bench press
Speaker 1: around five hundred kilos, and they have jaws that could
Speaker 1: crush your skull like it's a grape. But humans have
Speaker 1: numbers and strategy and the endurance advantage. Gorillas, particularly silver
Speaker 1: back gorillas, they don't have a lot of endurance, so
Speaker 1: it's kind of brute force versus teamwork and planning.
Speaker 5: Jesse, I have a question, how do we know how
Speaker 5: much a gorilla can bench press? Is a gorilla sitting
Speaker 5: there in the zoo doing bench presses and we're just
Speaker 5: adding going to another one.
Speaker 3: This whole thing makes me think evolution never happened. We're
Speaker 3: just still back there. We're just still back there fighting
Speaker 3: the apes.
Speaker 5: I have a mental block in my brain that does
Speaker 5: not allow me to engage with this hypothetical. My husband
Speaker 5: is talking about it, people in my life talking about it,
Speaker 5: and I'm just like, but it wouldn't happen, And if
Speaker 5: it did happen, I don't.
Speaker 1: Know do you know what's interesting about this is that
Speaker 1: usually it's the women that are in my experience, it's
Speaker 1: women who talk about hypotheticals, and men aren't very interested
Speaker 1: in hypotheticals. Very big generalizations I'm making here, but this
Speaker 1: is one of those things that women are just like
Speaker 1: most women. But who cares? And why are we even
Speaker 1: talking about this?
Speaker 5: It's like men are pretending like they know anything about gorillas.
Speaker 5: Like my husband's talking about it. I'm like, what if
Speaker 5: you met at gorilla? What did you learn your gorilla
Speaker 5: facts from Google? With your soft little hands? Like I'm
Speaker 5: not trying to emasculate him, but it's like they're pretending
Speaker 5: to be cave men.
Speaker 1: Do you want to know the answer?
Speaker 3: The answer is clearly that one hundred men could beat
Speaker 3: a gorilla in a fight. Of course they could.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you're right, because the experts generally agree that
Speaker 1: while the gorilla would absolutely demolish the first wave of humans,
Speaker 1: eventually one hundred men who sort of coordinate it. I
Speaker 1: don't know whether they'd need a meeting beforehand. I don't
Speaker 1: think there's prep time involved in this hypothetical. It'd get
Speaker 1: worn down eventually, But let's be honest, most of the
Speaker 1: men would be severely injured or killed before victory.
Speaker 5: Look Robert Erwin weigh in and he just said, just.
Speaker 4: As an animal conservationist, fighting an endangered species just doesn't
Speaker 4: sit right with me. How many people does it take
Speaker 4: to save gorillas? That's the question we should be asking.
Speaker 5: Gorillas are friend not for unendangered changing gears. This week,
Speaker 5: the trial of p Diddy or Sean John Colmes began
Speaker 5: in New York. The fifty five year old wrapper, record
Speaker 5: producer and record executive is charged with transportation to engage
Speaker 5: in prostitution, sex trafficking, and racketeering, which refers to dishonest
Speaker 5: and fraudulent business dealings. So what is this trial going
Speaker 5: to look like, who will be involved and what are
Speaker 5: we likely to learn. Experts have warned that any celebrity
Speaker 5: involved in Combs's supposed free coughs, and they're the free
Speaker 5: cough parties that you may have heard about, should be concerned,
Speaker 5: and many have speculated that we will likely hear the
Speaker 5: names of other people who have participated. Jurors were on
Speaker 5: Monday presented with a questionnaire to assess their suitability to
Speaker 5: the case, so the court might be checking for any
Speaker 5: associations or prejudicial feelings towards celebrities that may be called
Speaker 5: as witnesses during the trial. Names that were on that
Speaker 5: questionnaire included Michael B. Jordan, actor and comedian Mike Myers,
Speaker 5: as well as rappers Kid Cuddy and Kanye West. On
Speaker 5: the first day of the trial, the New York court
Speaker 5: heard claims that Coombs made a male escort urinate in
Speaker 5: his then girlfriend, Cassie Venturer's mouth and threatened to release
Speaker 5: images of her having sex with male escorts. Lawyer Emily
Speaker 5: Johnson has said this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Speaker 5: If found guilty of these crimes, Coombs is looking at
Speaker 5: a potential life sentence. Holly, what do you think we
Speaker 5: are going to see over the coming weeks.
Speaker 3: I think we're going to see, and we're already seeing
Speaker 3: it a lot of almost tittule sensationalist headlines about kinky
Speaker 3: sex parties and extreme behaviors that lots of people participated
Speaker 3: in at a group level at these because Co's defense
Speaker 3: is basically like in a nutshell, is yeah, we lived
Speaker 3: a wild life and people loved these parties, and everyone
Speaker 3: involved was consenting and paid, and this is just how
Speaker 3: we do right, like, that's basically his defense for this
Speaker 3: sort of very particular subset of rich and powerful people
Speaker 3: having a great time. And his defense argue that the
Speaker 3: women who were bringing and there are some men of
Speaker 3: course too, but the women who are bringing cases against
Speaker 3: him and saying they were coerced, he's saying, actually, these
Speaker 3: are just people who had a bit of a different
Speaker 3: sex life. She's saying, his defense attorney is a woman
Speaker 3: and calling these women capable, strong women who had the
Speaker 3: freedom to make the choices that they made. The problem is,
Speaker 3: of course, and this is what the prosecution are going
Speaker 3: to lean hard into. Is at the center of this
Speaker 3: case is this video of did he assaulting his former
Speaker 3: partner who appears in lots of these stories, Cassie Ventura,
Speaker 3: And well, you know, I'm sure that many people listening
Speaker 3: to this have seen either that video or glimpses of
Speaker 3: that video or heard about It's incredibly disturbing, and she
Speaker 3: was with him for years and features a lot of
Speaker 3: these stories. The idea that she was free to leave
Speaker 3: at any time is rather negated by the fact that
Speaker 3: there are witnesses saying that they saw her trying to
Speaker 3: leave and she was violently made to stay. I guess
Speaker 3: everything about this story is grim, and because a lot
Speaker 3: of the names in it are high profile and exciting,
Speaker 3: we're going to see wall to wall coverage, and some
Speaker 3: of it's going to feel a bit like an ordinary
Speaker 3: celebrity trial. And I just feel like we need to
Speaker 3: hold at the center of it that a lot of
Speaker 3: the things that are being talked about being done to
Speaker 3: women at this are not ordinary, and they have said
Speaker 3: over and over again that it wasn't. So it's going
Speaker 3: to be really interesting to see how it plays out.
Speaker 5: The defense said in its opening statement that the government
Speaker 5: has no place in this man's private bedrooms, which again
Speaker 5: is to your point, Holly, that they are suggesting that
Speaker 5: these are private sexual acts that were consented to, and
Speaker 5: we don't know what the court will find. But also,
Speaker 5: Cassie Ventura, she can be interested in whatever sex she
Speaker 5: is or isn't interested in, and that doesn't preclude her
Speaker 5: from being a victim. And it seems sometimes in a
Speaker 5: court that there's sort of an assumption that it does,
Speaker 5: and in fact, she enjoyed all of this. Well, she
Speaker 5: can have enjoyed A and not have wanted B. And
Speaker 5: so these cases are always especially for victims of sexual assault.
Speaker 5: I think that they're incredibly confronting. It's going to be
Speaker 5: particularly confronting because experts think that there is vision of
Speaker 5: a lot of what occurred, and there could be tapes
Speaker 5: played in this courtroom, and some victims claim that they
Speaker 5: were made to look like they enjoyed things or they
Speaker 5: were under the influence of drugs in those particular videos.
Speaker 5: But it will be very damning for a number of celebrities,
Speaker 5: and there will be celebrities named over the next eight
Speaker 5: to ten weeks.
Speaker 3: After the break. If you have a partner and they're breathing, typing,
Speaker 3: or chewing near you right now, that deep rumbling hatred
Speaker 3: you're feeling, it's got a name, and apparently it's a
Speaker 3: good thing.
Speaker 1: Do you want daily outloud access? Why wouldn't you? We
Speaker 1: drop episides every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Muma MEA subscribers.
Speaker 1: Follow the link in the show notes to get us
Speaker 1: in your ears five days a week and a huge
Speaker 1: thank you if you're already a subscriber.
Speaker 4: What is normal marital hatred?
Speaker 6: The essential rhythm of all relationships is harmony, disharmony and repair, closeness, disruption,
Speaker 6: and a return to closeness. That's where the skills come in,
Speaker 6: how to move from disruption to repair. Our culture doesn't
Speaker 6: teach it. We don't deal with reality. The father of
Speaker 6: couple's therapy back in the fifties said, the day you
Speaker 6: turn to the person who's next to you and you say,
Speaker 6: this is a mistake I've been had, This is not
Speaker 6: the person I fell in love with, that said FRAMO
Speaker 6: is the first day of your real Mary.
Speaker 3: The voice you just heard is a guy called Dr
Speaker 3: Terry Reel, and he was on the Tim Ferris podcast,
Speaker 3: and he's a guy who has lots of letters after
Speaker 3: his name that Jesse would think were very important for
Speaker 3: me to tell you, but I'm choosing just to tell
Speaker 3: you that he's worked in couple's therapy for a really
Speaker 3: long time, and he says that he's been going around
Speaker 3: the world talking about what he calls normal marital hatred
Speaker 3: for years and not one person has ever come to
Speaker 3: him afterwards and said, I don't know what you're talking about.
Speaker 5: Except for Holly, who says, can I have normal marital
Speaker 5: hatred if I am not married?
Speaker 1: Exactly?
Speaker 3: Does normal marital hatred sound familiar to you? To married
Speaker 3: people who have been married for about two issues and
Speaker 3: twenty ish years, respectively. Does normal marital hatred resonate?
Speaker 5: I had no questions after listening to that excerpt, I went, yeah,
Speaker 5: play on that. I have no questions. I did a
Speaker 5: bit of research into it, and this therapist has had
Speaker 5: a lot of criticism and a lot of blowback, especially
Speaker 5: from female therapists who want to make clear that you
Speaker 5: don't undermine your instincts. If you hate your partner, If
Speaker 5: you hate your partner every day for three years, that
Speaker 5: is not normal marital hatred. And of course, in cases
Speaker 5: of abuse or anything sinister, you listen to that gut instinct.
Speaker 5: But there's a lot of discussion around the word hate,
Speaker 5: and I think it's almost a definitional tension because hatred
Speaker 5: means intense dislike, checks out, opposition or revulsion towards something. Yep,
Speaker 5: that's what I mean. And it can pass very quickly.
Speaker 5: So some people have said, compare it to how you
Speaker 5: feel about a sibling, Like I know the feeling of
Speaker 5: having intense hatred for Claire one minute and then going, hey,
Speaker 5: do you want to eat some chocolate? And it passes
Speaker 5: like very very quickly. But close personal relationships lead to
Speaker 5: such an intensity of feeling, And do you see parts
Speaker 5: of them that are ugly? You see parts of your
Speaker 5: self reflected back that are ugly. That's surely a sign
Speaker 5: of real intimacy. If you have fleeting moments of hatred
Speaker 5: mayor do you hate your husband some of the time
Speaker 5: or all of the time.
Speaker 1: Not all of the time. A, You're right, I think
Speaker 1: it's about duration that's important. I know that in that moment,
Speaker 1: and I've experienced that moment enough times, as I'm sure
Speaker 1: he has, where you just go, oh, I can't imagine
Speaker 1: anyway back from this. I can't imagine ever not feeling
Speaker 1: this way about you. And sometimes I guess, well, for us,
Speaker 1: it hasn't been true yet. Oh, I guess it was
Speaker 1: true at one point because we did split up. But
Speaker 1: I think you're right, like I also can't hold onto
Speaker 1: things for very long. I've also been in relationships before
Speaker 1: him where I felt that and it didn't pass, and
Speaker 1: that feeling it's a different feeling because that was an
Speaker 1: abusive relationship that I needed to end, and even though
Speaker 1: I didn't feel that way all the time, because there
Speaker 1: were incredible highs in that relationship, as there often are
Speaker 1: in abusive relationships. There were incredible highs, but the lows
Speaker 1: just felt different. They didn't feel fleeting, they felt fundamental,
Speaker 1: and so much of it actually was not how I
Speaker 1: felt about the person, but how I felt about myself
Speaker 1: in those low moments.
Speaker 3: And that's also can be when you feel the normal
Speaker 3: nratal hatred in a vert Commas die directed at you.
Speaker 3: Because we're talking a lot about this, like I can't
Speaker 3: bear it when they do this thing. I can't bear
Speaker 3: it when they type too loudly, breathe too loudly, put
Speaker 3: that thing on there, you know whatever. But when you
Speaker 3: feel it back at you, when you think, oh my god,
Speaker 3: they hate me right now, that's very confronting, right And
Speaker 3: one of the points that this guy makes. And I'm
Speaker 3: glad you brought that context, Jesse, because when I first
Speaker 3: saw this, and I don't know a great deal about him,
Speaker 3: I was like, he sounds a bit like he's got
Speaker 3: an agenda, Like he sounds a bit like he would
Speaker 3: like women in particular maybe to stay in unhappy marriages
Speaker 3: for a long time, which sometimes the kind of code
Speaker 3: of you can get past it is code for you know,
Speaker 3: stay where you are. And I think that that obviously
Speaker 3: is not ideal. But the reason that obviously this catch phrase,
Speaker 3: this normal marital hatred, travels so far is we all
Speaker 3: feel it. And then when we have to recognize that
Speaker 3: sometimes people feeling about us too, it shifts the way
Speaker 3: you look at it. But if you're constantly feeling like
Speaker 3: your partner doesn't like you, doesn't value you, all those things,
Speaker 3: it's a different thing.
Speaker 5: I was reading that all relationships, all close relationships, are
Speaker 5: like a relational weather system, where there are storms and
Speaker 5: there's springtime, and there's flowers and blue skies and frozen
Speaker 5: pipes and electrical outages and all of that. And I
Speaker 5: actually think we can also apply it to podcast host
Speaker 5: hatred because there would be moments where, like, we spend
Speaker 5: too much time together. I'm sure we can all agree,
Speaker 5: and especially we've been touring tonight, we're on stage together,
Speaker 5: there can be a moment where you just go oh maa, oh, holly, ugh, yeah,
Speaker 5: and you feel this frustration, but it lifts as quickly
Speaker 5: as it came on. And I think Esther Perrell talks
Speaker 5: about I think the four horsemen of like what you
Speaker 5: can't come back from, and her big thing is resentment
Speaker 5: and how toxic resentment is to any relationship. You can
Speaker 5: hate someone briefly, it doesn't imprint. It's like a feeling
Speaker 5: of intense irritate more than anything, and then you forgive it.
Speaker 3: And also it's like if you didn't care about someone
Speaker 3: at all, you wouldn't have those powerful feelings about them.
Speaker 3: It's like, I only get profoundly irritated or invested enough
Speaker 3: to care about people who are close to me. If
Speaker 3: I don't care at all, it's a sign that you're
Speaker 3: not important in my life, you know what I mean?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 1: No, I have strong feelings about lots of people who
Speaker 1: aren't important, who I've never met before. I have a question.
Speaker 1: Does no marital hatred, which apparently you can come back from,
Speaker 1: how does it compare to the ick?
Speaker 3: Yeah? It sounds a lot like the ick, doesn't it. Well.
Speaker 3: I've always pushed back on the idea you can't come
Speaker 3: back from a nick. I think if you couldn't come
Speaker 3: back from an ick, then no one would ever stay
Speaker 3: in a long relationship because there are always going to
Speaker 3: be times in a relationship when you're living in close
Speaker 3: proximity with someone, sharing a bathroom with someone, watching them
Speaker 3: eat and do all of the intimate things that we
Speaker 3: do all the time, that someone you love is going
Speaker 3: to give you the ick. I believe you can bounce
Speaker 3: back from the ick if the other respects are in place.
Speaker 3: That's what I think.
Speaker 5: I reckon. This is so different to the ick, the
Speaker 5: feeling of I will be having an argument with my
Speaker 5: sister or Luca will have done something the other day.
Speaker 5: I had a really frustrating day and I had to
Speaker 5: blame it on someone, and it really worked when I
Speaker 5: decided it was Luca's far And you almost want to
Speaker 5: say I hate you, like you just want to say it.
Speaker 5: You know you don't mean it. You know it's not
Speaker 5: about anything. You couldn't even really explain why. But you're
Speaker 5: not disgusted by them. You're just filled up with anger.
Speaker 5: And I reckon that parenting compounds that, because you know
Speaker 5: that you shouldn't hate your kids. So there are moments
Speaker 5: where like your buttons are being pushed and your patience
Speaker 5: is all being invested into this little person who doesn't
Speaker 5: know any better. But your partner can handle it, and
Speaker 5: so you kind of re orient it towards them.
Speaker 3: That's all we've got time for today, out louders, I
Speaker 3: hope you've enjoyed listening to today's show, and massive thank
Speaker 3: you for our fabulous team for putting it together under
Speaker 3: tough circumstances, everybody being in a different place. We will
Speaker 3: be back in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 5: Can I ask, do you reckon that our audience has
Speaker 5: normal hatred towards us?
Speaker 3: Sometimes? Definitely?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Like on.
Speaker 5: A bad day, they chuck us in and they go,
Speaker 5: Jesse is pissing me off today.
Speaker 1: I think that's when they like shout also at like
Speaker 1: they might be in the car, or they later shout
Speaker 1: in their heads. Sometimes they say they shout out loud
Speaker 1: at us.
Speaker 5: I reckon when you're feeling like that totally valid feeling,
Speaker 5: I reckon. You don't got to leave a review. I
Speaker 5: think that's fine.
Speaker 1: That's a good time to step away.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, a review if you are looking for something
Speaker 5: else to listen to. This is if you're not feeling
Speaker 5: profound hatred right now. On yesterday's episode, we invited Amelia
Speaker 5: Lester on the show to share her story about being
Speaker 5: at Harvard University with Mark Zuckerberg. We should say we
Speaker 5: forced Amelia Leicester show us his story. Amelia is not
Speaker 5: kind of going through the world going ask me about Mark.
Speaker 1: This wasn't her idea. It wasn't because there was someone
Speaker 1: with intense hatred in that moment who left a review.
Speaker 1: Last time she mentioned Mark Zuckerberg and Harvard. But we're
Speaker 1: always the ones that bring it up, so we want
Speaker 1: to make that clear, and.
Speaker 5: In our private lives, we should say Amelia doesn't even
Speaker 5: bring up Mark Zuckerberg as.
Speaker 1: Much as I would if at one time.
Speaker 5: So look, if you are interested, it is so interesting.
Speaker 5: She tells us all about it, what he was like,
Speaker 5: what it's been like since.
Speaker 1: Except when she wears that sweatshirt that says Harvard and
Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg signed it.
Speaker 5: Signed it, that's actually very true. And when she gets
Speaker 5: her phone out and she goes hey Mark and like
Speaker 5: she's not him on the phone, then that's a bit arrogant.
Speaker 1: But I'm just going to text my friend Mark.
Speaker 5: Yes, we had a few questions for her. So listen
Speaker 5: to yesterday's subscriber episode. There is a link in our
Speaker 5: show notes. As always, Bye bye, shout out to any
Speaker 5: Mum and Me a subscribers listening. If you love the
Speaker 5: show and you want to support us, subscribing to Mom
Speaker 5: and Mia is the very best way to do so.
Speaker 5: There's a link in the episode description.