1 00:00:10,622 --> 00:00:13,382 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 2 00:00:13,822 --> 00:00:17,182 Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and warders 3 00:00:17,222 --> 00:00:18,822 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. 4 00:00:20,582 --> 00:00:25,422 Speaker 3: I only get profoundly irritained or invested enough to care 5 00:00:25,662 --> 00:00:28,142 Speaker 3: about people who are close to me. If I don't 6 00:00:28,142 --> 00:00:30,141 Speaker 3: care at all, it's a sign that you're not important 7 00:00:30,222 --> 00:00:31,621 Speaker 3: in my life. You know what I mean? 8 00:00:31,822 --> 00:00:31,982 Speaker 4: Oh? 9 00:00:31,982 --> 00:00:33,982 Speaker 1: No, I have strong feelings about lots of people who 10 00:00:33,942 --> 00:00:37,342 Speaker 1: aren't important in who I've never met before. 11 00:00:40,462 --> 00:00:43,422 Speaker 3: Hello, and welcome to Mamma Mia. Out loud what women 12 00:00:43,462 --> 00:00:46,422 Speaker 3: are actually talking about on Wednesday, the fourteenth of May. 13 00:00:46,502 --> 00:00:48,062 Speaker 3: I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm. 14 00:00:47,862 --> 00:00:50,502 Speaker 5: Mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens. 15 00:00:50,102 --> 00:00:53,542 Speaker 3: And welcome to our chaotic on the Road recording. Hopefully 16 00:00:53,582 --> 00:00:56,302 Speaker 3: you've been enjoying it this week and it continues because 17 00:00:56,302 --> 00:00:58,382 Speaker 3: today we are in Brisbane and we will see you 18 00:00:58,462 --> 00:01:01,542 Speaker 3: tonight out Louders on the show. There's a word being 19 00:01:01,582 --> 00:01:03,902 Speaker 3: thrown around a lot on the internet this week, and 20 00:01:03,942 --> 00:01:07,862 Speaker 3: it's narcissist. Why is everyone suddenly one? And if you 21 00:01:07,982 --> 00:01:10,342 Speaker 3: have to google whether or not you are one? Is 22 00:01:10,382 --> 00:01:14,302 Speaker 3: the answer clear? Also, the p Diddy trial started this 23 00:01:14,422 --> 00:01:18,021 Speaker 3: week and the headlines are already grimmed. What's it all about? 24 00:01:18,182 --> 00:01:21,782 Speaker 3: On which celebrities are feeling very nervous right now? And 25 00:01:22,502 --> 00:01:25,262 Speaker 3: is it normal to hate your partner? There's a very 26 00:01:25,302 --> 00:01:29,262 Speaker 3: respectable couples therapist who says yes, and that actually it's 27 00:01:29,302 --> 00:01:31,902 Speaker 3: a very good sign. But first, Mia Friedman. 28 00:01:32,302 --> 00:01:35,062 Speaker 1: In case you missed it, Susan Lee has been elected 29 00:01:35,102 --> 00:01:38,382 Speaker 1: the first woman to ever lead the Liberal Party. She 30 00:01:38,502 --> 00:01:42,422 Speaker 1: defeated challenger Angus Taylor twenty nine to twenty five in 31 00:01:42,462 --> 00:01:45,782 Speaker 1: the battle to replace Peter Dutton as opposition leader after 32 00:01:45,822 --> 00:01:49,742 Speaker 1: the party's devastating election loss. Sounds a little bit like 33 00:01:49,782 --> 00:01:52,982 Speaker 1: a shit skirt hole, just like Thereasa May war in 34 00:01:53,022 --> 00:01:56,342 Speaker 1: the UK. Can you revisit what that means? 35 00:01:56,942 --> 00:02:01,982 Speaker 3: Yes. Back in twenty sixteen, after the massive Brexit loss 36 00:02:02,102 --> 00:02:05,502 Speaker 3: in the UK, nobody wanted to be the leader of 37 00:02:05,582 --> 00:02:08,302 Speaker 3: the Conservative Party because they're in complete disarray. The people 38 00:02:08,341 --> 00:02:11,102 Speaker 3: who'd campaigned four breaks it didn't want to be responsible 39 00:02:11,142 --> 00:02:13,181 Speaker 3: for the mess of getting it done. The people who 40 00:02:13,262 --> 00:02:15,902 Speaker 3: campaigned against it, which was the sitting Prime Minister at 41 00:02:15,942 --> 00:02:19,181 Speaker 3: the time, David Cameron, obviously were humiliated. So no one 42 00:02:19,222 --> 00:02:22,222 Speaker 3: wanted that job until Theresa May put her hand up 43 00:02:22,342 --> 00:02:24,742 Speaker 3: and we discussed at the time how it was kind 44 00:02:24,782 --> 00:02:27,341 Speaker 3: of like she'd got a lot of shit on her 45 00:02:27,342 --> 00:02:30,702 Speaker 3: skirt and she was going to have to be spending 46 00:02:30,742 --> 00:02:33,422 Speaker 3: a whole lot of time trying to clean it off 47 00:02:33,742 --> 00:02:36,222 Speaker 3: as more and more people piled more shit onto her. 48 00:02:36,262 --> 00:02:39,262 Speaker 3: And that is how we came to the shitskirt analogy. 49 00:02:39,542 --> 00:02:42,222 Speaker 3: This does feel a bit like a shit skirt moment 50 00:02:42,462 --> 00:02:46,582 Speaker 3: because the Liberals have just had a historic defeat. They 51 00:02:46,582 --> 00:02:49,582 Speaker 3: are so reduced in the Parliament, Labor have more than 52 00:02:49,582 --> 00:02:53,102 Speaker 3: twice as many seats, so much to celebrate in the 53 00:02:53,181 --> 00:02:56,422 Speaker 3: female leader, but work cut out Jesse. 54 00:02:56,902 --> 00:02:59,142 Speaker 5: Yeah, a lot of people were talking about the glass cliff. 55 00:02:59,382 --> 00:03:03,102 Speaker 5: People talk about the glass ceiling that women face, which. 56 00:03:02,942 --> 00:03:05,422 Speaker 1: She has broken through. Is the first female leader of 57 00:03:05,462 --> 00:03:06,181 Speaker 1: the Liberal Party? 58 00:03:06,302 --> 00:03:08,262 Speaker 5: Yes, And the glass cliff is the idea, we'll put 59 00:03:08,262 --> 00:03:10,901 Speaker 5: you in a position of power just to what you 60 00:03:11,181 --> 00:03:14,061 Speaker 5: fall off. And I don't think that's the whole story here, 61 00:03:14,102 --> 00:03:19,022 Speaker 5: because she was next in line, really like in terms 62 00:03:19,062 --> 00:03:22,102 Speaker 5: of she was deputy, it's not ridiculous that this would 63 00:03:22,142 --> 00:03:24,382 Speaker 5: be a job that she takes. 64 00:03:24,662 --> 00:03:27,302 Speaker 3: And to be clear, the idea that a woman might 65 00:03:27,342 --> 00:03:30,262 Speaker 3: be handled a shitskirt is not like denigrating the woman. 66 00:03:30,382 --> 00:03:32,781 Speaker 3: It's not like saying that she didn't deserve it. It's 67 00:03:32,862 --> 00:03:36,822 Speaker 3: just that sometimes establishments suddenly seem to decide that a 68 00:03:36,862 --> 00:03:40,662 Speaker 3: female leader or sea would be a great idea just 69 00:03:40,742 --> 00:03:41,662 Speaker 3: when everything. 70 00:03:41,382 --> 00:03:45,862 Speaker 1: Shit because Julie Bishop, remember was the deputy leader and 71 00:03:46,102 --> 00:03:48,302 Speaker 1: didn't get the job when it went to Scott Morrison, 72 00:03:48,382 --> 00:03:51,582 Speaker 1: and many people say that was the beginning of the end, 73 00:03:51,742 --> 00:03:55,022 Speaker 1: certainly for the Liberal Party's reputation with women. 74 00:03:55,462 --> 00:03:58,462 Speaker 5: Yes, so years ago, I think it was like twenty fifteen, 75 00:03:58,502 --> 00:04:02,142 Speaker 5: the Liberal Party established a target for how many women 76 00:04:02,182 --> 00:04:04,062 Speaker 5: they wanted to get too politics because the Labor Party 77 00:04:04,062 --> 00:04:07,062 Speaker 5: did this a long time ago. And now, of course 78 00:04:07,342 --> 00:04:10,182 Speaker 5: we are having a historic moment with more women in 79 00:04:10,382 --> 00:04:13,662 Speaker 5: Parliament and more women in the Cabinet than ever before, 80 00:04:13,702 --> 00:04:16,702 Speaker 5: which is really exciting. But they set this target and 81 00:04:16,861 --> 00:04:20,102 Speaker 5: were very much against quotas and they've not kept themselves 82 00:04:20,301 --> 00:04:24,061 Speaker 5: accountable to those targets at all. And last election in 83 00:04:24,101 --> 00:04:27,181 Speaker 5: twenty twenty two they had their worst result in thirty 84 00:04:27,262 --> 00:04:30,782 Speaker 5: years for female representation. Friend of the Pod Charlotte Morlock 85 00:04:30,861 --> 00:04:33,821 Speaker 5: has written a great deal about this, and she says 86 00:04:33,861 --> 00:04:38,021 Speaker 5: that most Liberal politicians are men. I think over about 87 00:04:38,061 --> 00:04:41,582 Speaker 5: sixty and the voters in Australia, the average voter is 88 00:04:41,582 --> 00:04:43,501 Speaker 5: a thirty seven year old female and they're not seeing 89 00:04:43,501 --> 00:04:46,701 Speaker 5: themselves represented by this party at all. She's actually put 90 00:04:46,741 --> 00:04:50,821 Speaker 5: together a petition and it's putting pressure on the Liberal 91 00:04:50,861 --> 00:04:55,342 Speaker 5: Party to go, let's introduce some gender quotas. Regardless of 92 00:04:55,342 --> 00:04:57,741 Speaker 5: how you vote, if you are not about the Liberal Party, 93 00:04:57,821 --> 00:04:59,821 Speaker 5: if you would never in a million years vote for them. 94 00:05:00,181 --> 00:05:03,741 Speaker 5: For a thriving democracy, what we want is equal representation 95 00:05:04,101 --> 00:05:06,821 Speaker 5: and we want a competitive democracy. And what we've seen 96 00:05:06,861 --> 00:05:09,822 Speaker 5: with the Liberal Party going further and further right them 97 00:05:09,861 --> 00:05:12,662 Speaker 5: to represent their electorates. And there are Liberal women who 98 00:05:12,702 --> 00:05:14,741 Speaker 5: have tried to put their hands up and so it'll 99 00:05:14,782 --> 00:05:19,141 Speaker 5: be interesting to see if they actually introduce a quota. 100 00:05:19,222 --> 00:05:21,981 Speaker 5: Maybe Susan Lee is the first step to having more 101 00:05:22,022 --> 00:05:23,021 Speaker 5: female representation. 102 00:05:23,981 --> 00:05:26,342 Speaker 3: Also, in case you missed it, you need to put 103 00:05:26,342 --> 00:05:29,342 Speaker 3: some tape over your mouth? Yes, you do. Everywhere I 104 00:05:29,381 --> 00:05:32,421 Speaker 3: look at the moment, there is a prominent and influential 105 00:05:32,462 --> 00:05:36,741 Speaker 3: woman mouth taping. Most recently, I saw Sally Obermeina on 106 00:05:36,782 --> 00:05:39,501 Speaker 3: Instagram saying that putting tape over her mouth at night 107 00:05:39,741 --> 00:05:42,061 Speaker 3: had meant that she wakes up more energized every day. 108 00:05:42,061 --> 00:05:44,502 Speaker 3: That she's sleeping better than ever. And then, of course 109 00:05:44,541 --> 00:05:47,021 Speaker 3: there's my mate Gwynneth, who says, the first thing she 110 00:05:47,101 --> 00:05:49,582 Speaker 3: has to do in the morning is basically on block 111 00:05:49,782 --> 00:05:50,782 Speaker 3: all her orifices. 112 00:05:51,301 --> 00:05:53,701 Speaker 1: I wake up, I take off my mouth tape, my 113 00:05:53,941 --> 00:05:56,181 Speaker 1: mouth earpl my mouth taping. 114 00:05:56,541 --> 00:05:58,941 Speaker 3: Oh my god, I gotta call you the what. 115 00:05:59,741 --> 00:06:02,141 Speaker 5: Oh yeah, I think it looks like such bullshit. 116 00:06:02,381 --> 00:06:03,741 Speaker 4: I'll send you a bunch of research. 117 00:06:03,981 --> 00:06:04,621 Speaker 1: It's so good. 118 00:06:04,902 --> 00:06:07,741 Speaker 3: She goes on, say, mouth tape, IM ask air plugs. 119 00:06:07,782 --> 00:06:09,941 Speaker 3: She basically is like when she goes to bed, she 120 00:06:09,981 --> 00:06:12,821 Speaker 3: has to block herself off from the entire world. Guys, 121 00:06:12,861 --> 00:06:15,181 Speaker 3: are we trying it? Are we ready to mouth tape? 122 00:06:15,582 --> 00:06:18,981 Speaker 5: It's an interesting theory. I listened to Norman Swan talk 123 00:06:19,022 --> 00:06:22,061 Speaker 5: about it, and a lot of sentists and health experts 124 00:06:22,101 --> 00:06:24,662 Speaker 5: have poop pooed a bit because they say, if you 125 00:06:24,702 --> 00:06:27,141 Speaker 5: are a mouth breather, if you go to bed and 126 00:06:27,541 --> 00:06:29,941 Speaker 5: you're finding that you breathe through your mouth all night, 127 00:06:30,501 --> 00:06:32,821 Speaker 5: there's probably a reason for that, and that might be 128 00:06:32,902 --> 00:06:35,261 Speaker 5: that your nose is blocked, in which case, if you're 129 00:06:35,662 --> 00:06:41,222 Speaker 5: covering your mouth, then it could affect oxygen supply. If 130 00:06:41,222 --> 00:06:43,462 Speaker 5: you're suddenly putting all this pressure on your nose, so 131 00:06:43,501 --> 00:06:46,501 Speaker 5: it's definitely not advisable for everyone. 132 00:06:46,621 --> 00:06:49,302 Speaker 1: Couldn't do it if you had a cold, No, exactly right, 133 00:06:49,381 --> 00:06:51,462 Speaker 1: well allergy do it if you wanted to kiss someone. 134 00:06:52,022 --> 00:06:58,061 Speaker 5: No, But there is this growing field of like health 135 00:06:58,101 --> 00:07:03,381 Speaker 5: and wellness focused around breathing and how we're all doing 136 00:07:03,462 --> 00:07:07,861 Speaker 5: it wrong. So apparently we're breathing too much a minute. 137 00:07:08,262 --> 00:07:10,182 Speaker 5: Someone told me once that you meant to breathe like 138 00:07:10,262 --> 00:07:12,742 Speaker 5: twelve times a minute. I reckon, I'm breathing like forty 139 00:07:12,782 --> 00:07:13,542 Speaker 5: two times a minute. 140 00:07:13,582 --> 00:07:15,782 Speaker 3: I'm thinking about it now, I'm like thinking, how many 141 00:07:15,821 --> 00:07:16,662 Speaker 3: times am I breathing? 142 00:07:16,902 --> 00:07:19,502 Speaker 5: We've evolved, and it's to do with the fact that 143 00:07:19,502 --> 00:07:22,662 Speaker 5: we eat softer foods and a bunch of other things, 144 00:07:22,702 --> 00:07:25,381 Speaker 5: where our jaws are just wired differently and our airways 145 00:07:25,422 --> 00:07:28,021 Speaker 5: have gotten smaller. This is what everyone says, right, and 146 00:07:28,182 --> 00:07:33,462 Speaker 5: ancient civilizations knew the importance of breathing for stress, for relaxation, 147 00:07:33,782 --> 00:07:36,982 Speaker 5: for all of the things and being alive. Exactly, we've 148 00:07:37,022 --> 00:07:39,662 Speaker 5: lost the art, so we need to be retrained in breathing, 149 00:07:39,702 --> 00:07:42,302 Speaker 5: and I think mouth tape is a part of that. 150 00:07:42,381 --> 00:07:44,742 Speaker 5: Mayor this feels like something you'll be doing literally tonight. 151 00:07:44,982 --> 00:07:47,102 Speaker 1: Well, I'm excited that there's another thing that I can 152 00:07:47,142 --> 00:07:50,941 Speaker 1: do yep, before bed. I mean, crikey, I already wear 153 00:07:50,941 --> 00:07:54,982 Speaker 1: a mouthguard, so you know I've already got stuff going 154 00:07:55,022 --> 00:07:57,622 Speaker 1: on in my mouth. I'm not an ear plug or 155 00:07:57,622 --> 00:08:01,021 Speaker 1: an eye mask person. I don't know whether it's a 156 00:08:01,062 --> 00:08:04,302 Speaker 1: hangover from having little kids, but I always feel like 157 00:08:04,342 --> 00:08:06,461 Speaker 1: I need to be alert to know what's going on 158 00:08:07,302 --> 00:08:10,302 Speaker 1: in the house. Not that that's got anything. Maybe I 159 00:08:10,342 --> 00:08:11,901 Speaker 1: don't want to take my mouth because I might have 160 00:08:11,902 --> 00:08:13,941 Speaker 1: something to say in the middle of the night. Apparently 161 00:08:14,022 --> 00:08:16,261 Speaker 1: last night I got up to go to the toilet, 162 00:08:16,381 --> 00:08:19,742 Speaker 1: and apparently on the way back to bed, I said 163 00:08:19,742 --> 00:08:22,982 Speaker 1: to the dog, I love you, Belle. I was not 164 00:08:23,102 --> 00:08:24,982 Speaker 1: even aware of that I said that out loud, but 165 00:08:25,302 --> 00:08:28,261 Speaker 1: it woke up my husband. So yeah, no, I won't 166 00:08:28,342 --> 00:08:30,542 Speaker 1: be mouth taping. Do you just use like reggular, use 167 00:08:30,662 --> 00:08:31,502 Speaker 1: like a band. 168 00:08:31,182 --> 00:08:33,902 Speaker 3: Aid, or you need special mouth tape? So it's something 169 00:08:33,942 --> 00:08:36,222 Speaker 3: else you to buy me. Oh, which is fine obviously 170 00:08:36,662 --> 00:08:38,822 Speaker 3: given that all the trendy people are into it. I'm 171 00:08:38,822 --> 00:08:41,462 Speaker 3: sure that there are degrees of cool mouth tape and 172 00:08:41,462 --> 00:08:44,381 Speaker 3: on cool, but a lot of people say it really 173 00:08:44,462 --> 00:08:46,542 Speaker 3: helps you sleep, you know, I've got issues with that. 174 00:08:46,622 --> 00:08:49,102 Speaker 3: I reckon I will be mouth taping in a hot minute. 175 00:08:49,542 --> 00:08:53,262 Speaker 1: The internet is accusing everyone of being a narcissist this week, 176 00:08:53,302 --> 00:08:56,582 Speaker 1: and we'd like to know what one actually is. You 177 00:08:56,622 --> 00:08:59,622 Speaker 1: may have seen the headlines about Abby Chatfield upset on 178 00:08:59,662 --> 00:09:03,622 Speaker 1: Instagram about a number of things that Clementine Ford has 179 00:09:03,662 --> 00:09:08,222 Speaker 1: said about her. These are two sort of prominent online personalities. 180 00:09:08,702 --> 00:09:12,142 Speaker 1: Clementine Ford currently said that Abby is a narcissist, and 181 00:09:12,222 --> 00:09:14,302 Speaker 1: Abby said that was very upsetting to her because that's 182 00:09:14,342 --> 00:09:16,222 Speaker 1: what an ex used to call her, and so she 183 00:09:16,262 --> 00:09:19,102 Speaker 1: asked her therapist if she was one, and her therapist 184 00:09:19,102 --> 00:09:22,982 Speaker 1: said no. Anyway, we aren't waiting into that online drama 185 00:09:23,022 --> 00:09:25,342 Speaker 1: because we're not stupid. But one of the top stories 186 00:09:25,342 --> 00:09:27,862 Speaker 1: on Mum and mea this week was about women who 187 00:09:27,902 --> 00:09:31,622 Speaker 1: realized their mothers were narcissists. Happy Mother's Day. That's a 188 00:09:31,622 --> 00:09:34,142 Speaker 1: good thing to put the card. You may have noticed. 189 00:09:34,142 --> 00:09:35,982 Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys have noticed, but people 190 00:09:36,022 --> 00:09:39,222 Speaker 1: seem to be diagnosing other people with narcissism at a 191 00:09:39,222 --> 00:09:42,422 Speaker 1: fairly alarming rate. So the question is, is everyone suddenly 192 00:09:42,462 --> 00:09:45,662 Speaker 1: a narcissist or is the term being overused? 193 00:09:45,982 --> 00:09:48,902 Speaker 5: Jesse Well there's actually a really interesting theory I read 194 00:09:48,902 --> 00:09:53,022 Speaker 5: from a doctor who said that the thing about certified narcissists, 195 00:09:53,182 --> 00:09:57,462 Speaker 5: as in people with narcissistic personality disorder as defined by 196 00:09:57,462 --> 00:09:59,462 Speaker 5: the DSM, and we'll get to the definition of that, 197 00:09:59,822 --> 00:10:01,622 Speaker 5: but the thing about them is that they can be 198 00:10:01,822 --> 00:10:05,702 Speaker 5: very charismatic and very attractive, and therefore might actually pro 199 00:10:05,782 --> 00:10:08,462 Speaker 5: create more, which means that we may be living in 200 00:10:08,502 --> 00:10:11,342 Speaker 5: a world that has more narcissists than ever before. It 201 00:10:11,422 --> 00:10:15,502 Speaker 5: might be a trait that is evolutionarily rewarded and therefore 202 00:10:15,702 --> 00:10:19,902 Speaker 5: is more widespread. I don't think it would happen this quickly, 203 00:10:19,942 --> 00:10:22,782 Speaker 5: but it was an interesting theory. I think the reason 204 00:10:22,822 --> 00:10:25,662 Speaker 5: we're hearing it more and more is because calling someone 205 00:10:25,782 --> 00:10:30,342 Speaker 5: a narcissist is a way of turning their identity into 206 00:10:30,382 --> 00:10:35,102 Speaker 5: this static thing and dismissing them in a way that 207 00:10:35,182 --> 00:10:38,902 Speaker 5: makes them totally irredeemable, because of course we all behave 208 00:10:39,102 --> 00:10:43,862 Speaker 5: in ways that are narcissistic, and psychologists will say, the 209 00:10:43,902 --> 00:10:46,902 Speaker 5: trait of narcissism exists on a spectrum, and we are 210 00:10:46,982 --> 00:10:50,862 Speaker 5: all there. We all have ego that exists within us, 211 00:10:50,902 --> 00:10:54,781 Speaker 5: and you know, all the time we act like narcissists. 212 00:10:55,342 --> 00:10:57,822 Speaker 5: It's less than one percent of the population that is 213 00:10:58,142 --> 00:11:03,382 Speaker 5: thought to be actual narcissists, and of those, seventy five 214 00:11:03,542 --> 00:11:06,502 Speaker 5: percent are thought to be men. So it's something that's 215 00:11:06,542 --> 00:11:08,582 Speaker 5: diagnosed a lot more in men than women, and it 216 00:11:08,742 --> 00:11:12,862 Speaker 5: looks very different in men than women. Holly, do you 217 00:11:12,902 --> 00:11:13,662 Speaker 5: think you know any? 218 00:11:13,902 --> 00:11:18,502 Speaker 3: I do. I also think although it's become very fashionable 219 00:11:18,542 --> 00:11:21,822 Speaker 3: for women in particular, Sale, my ex was definitely a narcissist. 220 00:11:22,542 --> 00:11:25,782 Speaker 3: There's a real community of people who believe that narcissists 221 00:11:25,982 --> 00:11:29,141 Speaker 3: have damaged their relationships, whether it's their romantic ones or 222 00:11:29,142 --> 00:11:32,622 Speaker 3: their familiar ones. As you said me about mothers. I 223 00:11:32,662 --> 00:11:36,702 Speaker 3: interviewed a woman called Margie Bowden who is a narcissism expert. 224 00:11:36,742 --> 00:11:38,982 Speaker 3: She has so many followers. She is so but she's 225 00:11:38,982 --> 00:11:42,982 Speaker 3: an Australian woman and she focuses very much on narcissism 226 00:11:43,062 --> 00:11:43,982 Speaker 3: and relationships. 227 00:11:44,062 --> 00:11:47,142 Speaker 2: And you're in that relationship, you just you know, I 228 00:11:47,262 --> 00:11:50,462 Speaker 2: know that they love me. You know, we live in hope. 229 00:11:50,502 --> 00:11:54,022 Speaker 2: Hope is very powerful and often when you are in that, 230 00:11:54,862 --> 00:11:58,702 Speaker 2: in that early stage, you will have friends, You will 231 00:11:58,742 --> 00:12:01,302 Speaker 2: have people saying what are you doing? Can't you see 232 00:12:01,502 --> 00:12:06,982 Speaker 2: that they're no good? But you're now in an abuse cycle. 233 00:12:06,862 --> 00:12:12,342 Speaker 3: And she says some of the signs are lying, gas lighting, cheating, manipulation, control. 234 00:12:12,502 --> 00:12:14,742 Speaker 3: Now the thing is, it's not everybody who does those 235 00:12:14,782 --> 00:12:20,182 Speaker 3: things is a narcissist, but narcissists will definitely do those things. 236 00:12:20,262 --> 00:12:22,262 Speaker 3: And one of the things, to your point, Jesse, about 237 00:12:22,382 --> 00:12:24,342 Speaker 3: once you've called somebody that, and the reason there's so 238 00:12:24,422 --> 00:12:28,902 Speaker 3: much weight to it is it's incurable. Like a narcissist 239 00:12:29,022 --> 00:12:32,062 Speaker 3: is a narcissist. We all have our narcissistic traits, as 240 00:12:32,102 --> 00:12:35,062 Speaker 3: you've said, Jesse, and you can work towards working with 241 00:12:35,102 --> 00:12:37,422 Speaker 3: them or suppressing them or anything like that, but a 242 00:12:37,462 --> 00:12:40,382 Speaker 3: true narcissist is always going to be a narcissist. So 243 00:12:40,422 --> 00:12:42,862 Speaker 3: a lot of Margie's work is about how do you 244 00:12:42,942 --> 00:12:45,422 Speaker 3: copaent with a narcissist, How do you go to Mother's 245 00:12:45,462 --> 00:12:47,582 Speaker 3: Day when your mum's a narcist? How do you deal 246 00:12:47,662 --> 00:12:48,062 Speaker 3: with it? 247 00:12:48,382 --> 00:12:51,062 Speaker 1: I know it seems like splitting hairs, but there's a 248 00:12:51,102 --> 00:12:56,062 Speaker 1: difference between being narcissistic and having those traits and being 249 00:12:56,222 --> 00:13:00,142 Speaker 1: a narcissist. One is sort of an adjective and one 250 00:13:00,222 --> 00:13:03,262 Speaker 1: is a noun. The big thing that's happened online is 251 00:13:03,302 --> 00:13:07,781 Speaker 1: that there's confusion between the traits of narcissism and the disorder. 252 00:13:07,942 --> 00:13:11,982 Speaker 1: So people have started and labeling like selfish or arrogant 253 00:13:12,062 --> 00:13:17,342 Speaker 1: or even annoying behavior as narcissism. But actual narcissistic personality 254 00:13:17,382 --> 00:13:21,182 Speaker 1: disorder involves a persistent pattern of lack of empathy and 255 00:13:21,262 --> 00:13:25,902 Speaker 1: grandiosity and exploitative behavior. And it has to be not 256 00:13:25,982 --> 00:13:29,222 Speaker 1: just persistent but life disrupting. 257 00:13:29,582 --> 00:13:32,502 Speaker 3: Yes, And they say that the thing about narcissists, and 258 00:13:32,262 --> 00:13:34,662 Speaker 3: we know this because of the way that we colloquially 259 00:13:34,782 --> 00:13:37,142 Speaker 3: use it, but it is all about them, right, that 260 00:13:37,262 --> 00:13:40,102 Speaker 3: everybody and everything around them exists only to serve their needs. 261 00:13:40,102 --> 00:13:42,222 Speaker 3: And I remember when I was talking to Margie the expert, 262 00:13:42,222 --> 00:13:44,542 Speaker 3: I said, that sounds like a psychopath, and she said, 263 00:13:44,542 --> 00:13:48,342 Speaker 3: there's a crucial difference. And psychopaths don't care what other 264 00:13:48,382 --> 00:13:51,062 Speaker 3: people think of them. Narcissists really do. 265 00:13:51,502 --> 00:13:54,742 Speaker 1: Yes, that's the difference exactly. And that's the difference a 266 00:13:54,782 --> 00:13:58,262 Speaker 1: couple of I mean, you can't diagnose people with mental 267 00:13:58,262 --> 00:14:03,062 Speaker 1: disorders from the outside. But two prominent examples that display 268 00:14:03,622 --> 00:14:09,662 Speaker 1: not just narcissistic traits but narcissistic personality disorder symptoms are 269 00:14:09,702 --> 00:14:11,982 Speaker 1: Kanye West and Donald Trump. 270 00:14:12,262 --> 00:14:15,822 Speaker 5: I think TikTok co opting a lot of this language. 271 00:14:16,382 --> 00:14:19,382 Speaker 5: Narcissism or you are a narcissist, has just become interchangeable 272 00:14:19,422 --> 00:14:23,182 Speaker 5: with you are an asshole, and they are different things. 273 00:14:24,062 --> 00:14:29,542 Speaker 5: But I wonder too if we're seeing more narcissistic behavior 274 00:14:29,582 --> 00:14:33,102 Speaker 5: because we live in a culture that so clearly rewards it. 275 00:14:33,462 --> 00:14:38,782 Speaker 5: So vanity, self centeredness, heightened sense of self worth, visions 276 00:14:38,782 --> 00:14:43,902 Speaker 5: of their own grandiosity, probably incredibly ambitious, undeterred by rejection, 277 00:14:44,422 --> 00:14:48,662 Speaker 5: craving attention, highly motivated. All of those things will make 278 00:14:48,702 --> 00:14:51,262 Speaker 5: you a winner in the world we live in, and 279 00:14:51,302 --> 00:14:56,222 Speaker 5: in fact, social morality can be a hurdle or a 280 00:14:56,302 --> 00:14:59,822 Speaker 5: hindrance to what we see as capitalist's success. So if 281 00:14:59,902 --> 00:15:03,062 Speaker 5: you don't worry about any of those things, then you 282 00:15:03,142 --> 00:15:06,742 Speaker 5: might rise and rise. But the irony to calling someone 283 00:15:06,782 --> 00:15:10,542 Speaker 5: a narcissist online, it's like when someone reads a memoir 284 00:15:10,622 --> 00:15:14,182 Speaker 5: and goes all they did is talk about themselves. It's like, yeah, 285 00:15:14,222 --> 00:15:17,462 Speaker 5: the medium is a message, like we're all narcissists on 286 00:15:17,462 --> 00:15:20,222 Speaker 5: our social media platforms because that's what the technology is 287 00:15:20,902 --> 00:15:23,742 Speaker 5: demanding of us. And I know it. It's like such 288 00:15:23,782 --> 00:15:28,502 Speaker 5: a basic primary school lesson, but you know, not weighing 289 00:15:28,542 --> 00:15:33,462 Speaker 5: into any internet drama. But the second someone calls anyone 290 00:15:33,902 --> 00:15:39,022 Speaker 5: a definitive name and stops playing the ball, but instead 291 00:15:39,062 --> 00:15:42,262 Speaker 5: starts playing the person, you've lost me. And I just 292 00:15:42,302 --> 00:15:44,822 Speaker 5: see so much of this all over my social media 293 00:15:44,862 --> 00:15:46,902 Speaker 5: where you just throw out these terms. It must feel 294 00:15:46,902 --> 00:15:47,822 Speaker 5: good to use. 295 00:15:47,742 --> 00:15:49,942 Speaker 1: Because it's so reductive, isn't it and dismissive. 296 00:15:50,222 --> 00:15:52,382 Speaker 5: Well, it always just undermines your argument as well. 297 00:15:52,542 --> 00:15:56,502 Speaker 1: It's interesting how things have changed so much for gen 298 00:15:56,742 --> 00:15:59,582 Speaker 1: X's I remember that the worst thing you could be 299 00:15:59,702 --> 00:16:03,702 Speaker 1: at school and in Australia really is up yourself or vain. 300 00:16:03,982 --> 00:16:07,902 Speaker 1: That was the biggest diss But you're right, Jesse, like 301 00:16:07,982 --> 00:16:12,022 Speaker 1: in just a generation, we are now living in the 302 00:16:12,022 --> 00:16:16,782 Speaker 1: world of the front facing camera where we're encouraged to 303 00:16:16,942 --> 00:16:22,422 Speaker 1: just share our every thought, feeling, outfit, opinion with the world. 304 00:16:22,542 --> 00:16:25,742 Speaker 1: And there's a whole category of people that do that 305 00:16:25,742 --> 00:16:27,542 Speaker 1: that are very able to make a lot of money 306 00:16:27,582 --> 00:16:29,542 Speaker 1: for it, and they're called influencers. And you know, I 307 00:16:29,542 --> 00:16:32,102 Speaker 1: listened to us. Who cares what we think? Yep, here 308 00:16:32,142 --> 00:16:34,582 Speaker 1: we are here talking about narcissism. Who cares what the 309 00:16:34,622 --> 00:16:37,582 Speaker 1: three of us think? And we've been rewarded really well 310 00:16:37,582 --> 00:16:39,702 Speaker 1: for it. So I did google whether I was a 311 00:16:39,782 --> 00:16:40,542 Speaker 1: narcissist once? 312 00:16:40,782 --> 00:16:41,942 Speaker 5: What made you google it? 313 00:16:42,142 --> 00:16:44,662 Speaker 1: Because someone called me one? Someone who knew me called 314 00:16:44,662 --> 00:16:46,782 Speaker 1: me one, and then afterwards they apologized and said I 315 00:16:46,822 --> 00:16:49,422 Speaker 1: was just being a dick and that's not fair. But 316 00:16:49,542 --> 00:16:52,342 Speaker 1: what I discovered, much to my relief, is that if 317 00:16:52,382 --> 00:16:55,862 Speaker 1: you google am I a narcissist, you're not a narcissist 318 00:16:55,902 --> 00:17:00,102 Speaker 1: because narcissists aren't worried about being narcissists because they don't care. 319 00:17:00,422 --> 00:17:03,302 Speaker 5: I reckon. I know one that comes to mind, and 320 00:17:03,342 --> 00:17:10,502 Speaker 5: the sign for me is incredibly professionally successful, took risks, 321 00:17:11,022 --> 00:17:13,981 Speaker 5: made decisions that would be very difficult to make if 322 00:17:14,061 --> 00:17:18,061 Speaker 5: you had real social relationships with people, and left in 323 00:17:18,101 --> 00:17:21,782 Speaker 5: the wake of that are disastrous personal relationships? 324 00:17:22,101 --> 00:17:22,461 Speaker 4: Is it me? 325 00:17:23,462 --> 00:17:26,342 Speaker 5: No, you have quite good relationships with the people around Jamana. 326 00:17:26,942 --> 00:17:27,142 Speaker 6: Yeah. 327 00:17:27,182 --> 00:17:30,622 Speaker 1: I think I've definitely got narcissistic tendencies. I think in 328 00:17:30,702 --> 00:17:34,022 Speaker 1: some ways, certainly, to get ahead in our industry, you 329 00:17:34,101 --> 00:17:37,542 Speaker 1: have to be self focused a lot, probably more than 330 00:17:37,621 --> 00:17:40,381 Speaker 1: is healthy. Jesus, I started a media company with my 331 00:17:40,422 --> 00:17:41,821 Speaker 1: own name in it. 332 00:17:41,821 --> 00:17:46,222 Speaker 3: It's the behavior you try and train your kids. 333 00:17:45,901 --> 00:17:48,181 Speaker 1: Out of, particularly if you're English or Australian. 334 00:17:48,502 --> 00:17:48,702 Speaker 7: Yeah. 335 00:17:48,742 --> 00:17:52,381 Speaker 3: But also adolescents are by their very nature very narcissistic 336 00:17:52,462 --> 00:17:56,902 Speaker 3: as a total right, like everything is literally around them 337 00:17:56,901 --> 00:17:58,821 Speaker 3: and the way they see the world, and so much 338 00:17:58,861 --> 00:18:02,022 Speaker 3: of parenting is constantly saying, think about what other people 339 00:18:02,141 --> 00:18:04,341 Speaker 3: might think, see yourself through their eyes? How do you 340 00:18:04,341 --> 00:18:06,421 Speaker 3: think that made them feel? How do you think? And 341 00:18:06,462 --> 00:18:09,382 Speaker 3: it's like one of the things about the age will 342 00:18:09,422 --> 00:18:12,222 Speaker 3: have in now, as you say, Jesse, which rewards narcisism 343 00:18:12,262 --> 00:18:16,022 Speaker 3: a lot, is it extends the adolescent view of the world. 344 00:18:16,101 --> 00:18:18,461 Speaker 3: It's like it is really just about you and what 345 00:18:18,502 --> 00:18:20,581 Speaker 3: other people think about you. Because to the point about 346 00:18:20,702 --> 00:18:23,701 Speaker 3: narcissists care about what other people think. It matters a 347 00:18:23,702 --> 00:18:26,261 Speaker 3: great deal that they have high status and that people 348 00:18:26,341 --> 00:18:27,822 Speaker 3: think they're amazing. 349 00:18:28,182 --> 00:18:31,821 Speaker 5: In a moment, celebrity names and horrific testimonies, the court 350 00:18:31,901 --> 00:18:35,141 Speaker 5: case that could land Sean Combs or p Diddy in 351 00:18:35,182 --> 00:18:36,302 Speaker 5: prison full life. 352 00:18:40,462 --> 00:18:42,381 Speaker 1: In case you missed it, men have a new Roman 353 00:18:42,381 --> 00:18:46,141 Speaker 1: Empire and it's man versus gorilla, or should I say 354 00:18:46,302 --> 00:18:51,542 Speaker 1: man versus one hundred gorillas? This bizarre question whether one 355 00:18:51,621 --> 00:18:55,221 Speaker 1: hundred men could defeat a single adult male gorilla in 356 00:18:55,341 --> 00:18:59,581 Speaker 1: hand to hand combat went very viral after mister bast 357 00:18:59,581 --> 00:19:02,302 Speaker 1: tweeted about it, and suddenly everyone from your teenage nephew 358 00:19:02,341 --> 00:19:07,101 Speaker 1: to your accountant has a passionate opinion about primate combat. 359 00:19:07,742 --> 00:19:10,302 Speaker 1: Here is a little explanation of the question. 360 00:19:10,542 --> 00:19:14,022 Speaker 7: It's a hypothetical question that sparked a huge debate on 361 00:19:14,061 --> 00:19:17,702 Speaker 7: social media. Okay, so could one hundred man defeat one 362 00:19:17,782 --> 00:19:18,942 Speaker 7: gorilla nfight? 363 00:19:19,381 --> 00:19:19,701 Speaker 6: Okay? 364 00:19:19,861 --> 00:19:23,381 Speaker 7: So the question was first, this is locker room conversation, Adriana. 365 00:19:23,502 --> 00:19:25,581 Speaker 7: So it was thrown out there on x and has 366 00:19:25,942 --> 00:19:29,221 Speaker 7: been showing up on Facebook, TikTok and read it. People 367 00:19:29,262 --> 00:19:32,181 Speaker 7: seem to have some real opinions on the matter. 368 00:19:33,302 --> 00:19:35,821 Speaker 8: Now let's talk strategy. I think this is very doable. 369 00:19:35,982 --> 00:19:38,821 Speaker 8: If you guys are rush in on him at once, 370 00:19:38,942 --> 00:19:41,942 Speaker 8: there's going to be at least ten of y'all that die, okay, 371 00:19:42,222 --> 00:19:43,861 Speaker 8: And as long as you guys are okay with that, 372 00:19:43,942 --> 00:19:45,222 Speaker 8: then I think you can take him down. 373 00:19:45,462 --> 00:19:48,341 Speaker 7: What the gorilla would do to the first human man 374 00:19:48,502 --> 00:19:50,342 Speaker 7: would be talked about for generations. 375 00:19:50,381 --> 00:19:53,262 Speaker 6: Okay, it would be not ideal to watch. 376 00:19:53,341 --> 00:19:55,181 Speaker 7: I'm going to be the first person to walk up 377 00:19:55,222 --> 00:19:57,262 Speaker 7: to the gorilla, and as I get to it, I'm 378 00:19:57,262 --> 00:19:59,862 Speaker 7: going to slowly turn around and switch teams. 379 00:20:00,222 --> 00:20:03,941 Speaker 1: Wow, well this debate has taken over dinner tables and 380 00:20:04,022 --> 00:20:09,262 Speaker 1: pub conversations and slack channels at work. And here's where 381 00:20:09,262 --> 00:20:12,781 Speaker 1: it interesting. Gorillas are absolute units of raw power. They 382 00:20:12,782 --> 00:20:15,901 Speaker 1: are three times stronger than humans. They can bench press 383 00:20:15,942 --> 00:20:18,262 Speaker 1: around five hundred kilos, and they have jaws that could 384 00:20:18,341 --> 00:20:21,861 Speaker 1: crush your skull like it's a grape. But humans have 385 00:20:21,982 --> 00:20:27,341 Speaker 1: numbers and strategy and the endurance advantage. Gorillas, particularly silver 386 00:20:27,381 --> 00:20:30,061 Speaker 1: back gorillas, they don't have a lot of endurance, so 387 00:20:30,422 --> 00:20:33,622 Speaker 1: it's kind of brute force versus teamwork and planning. 388 00:20:33,742 --> 00:20:36,422 Speaker 5: Jesse, I have a question, how do we know how 389 00:20:36,502 --> 00:20:40,181 Speaker 5: much a gorilla can bench press? Is a gorilla sitting 390 00:20:40,182 --> 00:20:41,981 Speaker 5: there in the zoo doing bench presses and we're just 391 00:20:42,022 --> 00:20:44,302 Speaker 5: adding going to another one. 392 00:20:44,341 --> 00:20:48,262 Speaker 3: This whole thing makes me think evolution never happened. We're 393 00:20:48,341 --> 00:20:51,181 Speaker 3: just still back there. We're just still back there fighting 394 00:20:51,222 --> 00:20:51,581 Speaker 3: the apes. 395 00:20:51,742 --> 00:20:54,182 Speaker 5: I have a mental block in my brain that does 396 00:20:54,302 --> 00:20:57,861 Speaker 5: not allow me to engage with this hypothetical. My husband 397 00:20:57,901 --> 00:20:59,742 Speaker 5: is talking about it, people in my life talking about it, 398 00:21:00,061 --> 00:21:03,942 Speaker 5: and I'm just like, but it wouldn't happen, And if 399 00:21:03,982 --> 00:21:06,101 Speaker 5: it did happen, I don't. 400 00:21:05,861 --> 00:21:07,821 Speaker 1: Know do you know what's interesting about this is that 401 00:21:07,901 --> 00:21:10,542 Speaker 1: usually it's the women that are in my experience, it's 402 00:21:10,581 --> 00:21:13,861 Speaker 1: women who talk about hypotheticals, and men aren't very interested 403 00:21:13,901 --> 00:21:17,782 Speaker 1: in hypotheticals. Very big generalizations I'm making here, but this 404 00:21:17,942 --> 00:21:19,742 Speaker 1: is one of those things that women are just like 405 00:21:20,341 --> 00:21:23,061 Speaker 1: most women. But who cares? And why are we even 406 00:21:23,101 --> 00:21:23,942 Speaker 1: talking about this? 407 00:21:24,061 --> 00:21:27,422 Speaker 5: It's like men are pretending like they know anything about gorillas. 408 00:21:27,502 --> 00:21:29,101 Speaker 5: Like my husband's talking about it. I'm like, what if 409 00:21:29,141 --> 00:21:31,502 Speaker 5: you met at gorilla? What did you learn your gorilla 410 00:21:31,542 --> 00:21:34,302 Speaker 5: facts from Google? With your soft little hands? Like I'm 411 00:21:34,302 --> 00:21:36,782 Speaker 5: not trying to emasculate him, but it's like they're pretending 412 00:21:36,821 --> 00:21:37,702 Speaker 5: to be cave men. 413 00:21:37,861 --> 00:21:38,861 Speaker 1: Do you want to know the answer? 414 00:21:39,101 --> 00:21:42,262 Speaker 3: The answer is clearly that one hundred men could beat 415 00:21:42,302 --> 00:21:44,302 Speaker 3: a gorilla in a fight. Of course they could. 416 00:21:44,462 --> 00:21:48,141 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you're right, because the experts generally agree that 417 00:21:48,182 --> 00:21:51,742 Speaker 1: while the gorilla would absolutely demolish the first wave of humans, 418 00:21:52,422 --> 00:21:57,222 Speaker 1: eventually one hundred men who sort of coordinate it. I 419 00:21:57,262 --> 00:21:59,422 Speaker 1: don't know whether they'd need a meeting beforehand. I don't 420 00:21:59,462 --> 00:22:03,021 Speaker 1: think there's prep time involved in this hypothetical. It'd get 421 00:22:03,101 --> 00:22:05,421 Speaker 1: worn down eventually, But let's be honest, most of the 422 00:22:05,502 --> 00:22:08,462 Speaker 1: men would be severely injured or killed before victory. 423 00:22:08,702 --> 00:22:11,382 Speaker 5: Look Robert Erwin weigh in and he just said, just. 424 00:22:11,422 --> 00:22:16,542 Speaker 4: As an animal conservationist, fighting an endangered species just doesn't 425 00:22:16,821 --> 00:22:20,542 Speaker 4: sit right with me. How many people does it take 426 00:22:20,581 --> 00:22:23,501 Speaker 4: to save gorillas? That's the question we should be asking. 427 00:22:23,621 --> 00:22:29,581 Speaker 5: Gorillas are friend not for unendangered changing gears. This week, 428 00:22:29,782 --> 00:22:33,381 Speaker 5: the trial of p Diddy or Sean John Colmes began 429 00:22:33,621 --> 00:22:37,101 Speaker 5: in New York. The fifty five year old wrapper, record 430 00:22:37,101 --> 00:22:41,381 Speaker 5: producer and record executive is charged with transportation to engage 431 00:22:41,381 --> 00:22:46,741 Speaker 5: in prostitution, sex trafficking, and racketeering, which refers to dishonest 432 00:22:46,782 --> 00:22:51,141 Speaker 5: and fraudulent business dealings. So what is this trial going 433 00:22:51,182 --> 00:22:53,902 Speaker 5: to look like, who will be involved and what are 434 00:22:53,901 --> 00:22:57,981 Speaker 5: we likely to learn. Experts have warned that any celebrity 435 00:22:58,141 --> 00:23:02,141 Speaker 5: involved in Combs's supposed free coughs, and they're the free 436 00:23:02,141 --> 00:23:05,262 Speaker 5: cough parties that you may have heard about, should be concerned, 437 00:23:05,341 --> 00:23:07,941 Speaker 5: and many have speculated that we will likely hear the 438 00:23:08,061 --> 00:23:12,542 Speaker 5: names of other people who have participated. Jurors were on 439 00:23:12,621 --> 00:23:16,341 Speaker 5: Monday presented with a questionnaire to assess their suitability to 440 00:23:16,462 --> 00:23:18,861 Speaker 5: the case, so the court might be checking for any 441 00:23:18,861 --> 00:23:22,941 Speaker 5: associations or prejudicial feelings towards celebrities that may be called 442 00:23:23,022 --> 00:23:26,502 Speaker 5: as witnesses during the trial. Names that were on that 443 00:23:26,621 --> 00:23:31,222 Speaker 5: questionnaire included Michael B. Jordan, actor and comedian Mike Myers, 444 00:23:31,341 --> 00:23:35,741 Speaker 5: as well as rappers Kid Cuddy and Kanye West. On 445 00:23:35,782 --> 00:23:37,782 Speaker 5: the first day of the trial, the New York court 446 00:23:37,982 --> 00:23:42,861 Speaker 5: heard claims that Coombs made a male escort urinate in 447 00:23:42,942 --> 00:23:47,141 Speaker 5: his then girlfriend, Cassie Venturer's mouth and threatened to release 448 00:23:47,222 --> 00:23:51,061 Speaker 5: images of her having sex with male escorts. Lawyer Emily 449 00:23:51,141 --> 00:23:54,181 Speaker 5: Johnson has said this is just the tip of the iceberg. 450 00:23:55,182 --> 00:23:58,701 Speaker 5: If found guilty of these crimes, Coombs is looking at 451 00:23:58,702 --> 00:24:02,542 Speaker 5: a potential life sentence. Holly, what do you think we 452 00:24:02,581 --> 00:24:04,262 Speaker 5: are going to see over the coming weeks. 453 00:24:04,542 --> 00:24:06,981 Speaker 3: I think we're going to see, and we're already seeing 454 00:24:06,982 --> 00:24:12,582 Speaker 3: it a lot of almost tittule sensationalist headlines about kinky 455 00:24:12,782 --> 00:24:18,222 Speaker 3: sex parties and extreme behaviors that lots of people participated 456 00:24:18,262 --> 00:24:21,702 Speaker 3: in at a group level at these because Co's defense 457 00:24:21,821 --> 00:24:25,861 Speaker 3: is basically like in a nutshell, is yeah, we lived 458 00:24:25,861 --> 00:24:29,422 Speaker 3: a wild life and people loved these parties, and everyone 459 00:24:29,502 --> 00:24:33,061 Speaker 3: involved was consenting and paid, and this is just how 460 00:24:33,141 --> 00:24:36,581 Speaker 3: we do right, like, that's basically his defense for this 461 00:24:36,702 --> 00:24:40,621 Speaker 3: sort of very particular subset of rich and powerful people 462 00:24:40,661 --> 00:24:44,581 Speaker 3: having a great time. And his defense argue that the 463 00:24:44,702 --> 00:24:46,941 Speaker 3: women who were bringing and there are some men of 464 00:24:46,982 --> 00:24:50,101 Speaker 3: course too, but the women who are bringing cases against 465 00:24:50,182 --> 00:24:53,902 Speaker 3: him and saying they were coerced, he's saying, actually, these 466 00:24:53,901 --> 00:24:55,702 Speaker 3: are just people who had a bit of a different 467 00:24:55,782 --> 00:24:58,462 Speaker 3: sex life. She's saying, his defense attorney is a woman 468 00:24:58,782 --> 00:25:02,141 Speaker 3: and calling these women capable, strong women who had the 469 00:25:02,182 --> 00:25:05,782 Speaker 3: freedom to make the choices that they made. The problem is, 470 00:25:05,821 --> 00:25:08,022 Speaker 3: of course, and this is what the prosecution are going 471 00:25:08,061 --> 00:25:10,421 Speaker 3: to lean hard into. Is at the center of this 472 00:25:10,581 --> 00:25:15,502 Speaker 3: case is this video of did he assaulting his former 473 00:25:15,702 --> 00:25:19,782 Speaker 3: partner who appears in lots of these stories, Cassie Ventura, 474 00:25:20,422 --> 00:25:22,462 Speaker 3: And well, you know, I'm sure that many people listening 475 00:25:22,502 --> 00:25:24,941 Speaker 3: to this have seen either that video or glimpses of 476 00:25:24,942 --> 00:25:28,181 Speaker 3: that video or heard about It's incredibly disturbing, and she 477 00:25:28,341 --> 00:25:30,302 Speaker 3: was with him for years and features a lot of 478 00:25:30,302 --> 00:25:32,381 Speaker 3: these stories. The idea that she was free to leave 479 00:25:32,422 --> 00:25:35,501 Speaker 3: at any time is rather negated by the fact that 480 00:25:35,542 --> 00:25:38,101 Speaker 3: there are witnesses saying that they saw her trying to 481 00:25:38,182 --> 00:25:41,341 Speaker 3: leave and she was violently made to stay. I guess 482 00:25:41,502 --> 00:25:44,222 Speaker 3: everything about this story is grim, and because a lot 483 00:25:44,222 --> 00:25:48,622 Speaker 3: of the names in it are high profile and exciting, 484 00:25:48,861 --> 00:25:51,261 Speaker 3: we're going to see wall to wall coverage, and some 485 00:25:51,302 --> 00:25:53,182 Speaker 3: of it's going to feel a bit like an ordinary 486 00:25:53,262 --> 00:25:56,502 Speaker 3: celebrity trial. And I just feel like we need to 487 00:25:56,581 --> 00:25:59,181 Speaker 3: hold at the center of it that a lot of 488 00:25:59,222 --> 00:26:02,782 Speaker 3: the things that are being talked about being done to 489 00:26:03,262 --> 00:26:07,182 Speaker 3: women at this are not ordinary, and they have said 490 00:26:07,222 --> 00:26:10,861 Speaker 3: over and over again that it wasn't. So it's going 491 00:26:10,942 --> 00:26:13,102 Speaker 3: to be really interesting to see how it plays out. 492 00:26:13,422 --> 00:26:16,422 Speaker 5: The defense said in its opening statement that the government 493 00:26:16,462 --> 00:26:20,821 Speaker 5: has no place in this man's private bedrooms, which again 494 00:26:21,101 --> 00:26:24,302 Speaker 5: is to your point, Holly, that they are suggesting that 495 00:26:24,302 --> 00:26:26,941 Speaker 5: these are private sexual acts that were consented to, and 496 00:26:26,982 --> 00:26:30,381 Speaker 5: we don't know what the court will find. But also, 497 00:26:31,022 --> 00:26:35,381 Speaker 5: Cassie Ventura, she can be interested in whatever sex she 498 00:26:35,542 --> 00:26:37,782 Speaker 5: is or isn't interested in, and that doesn't preclude her 499 00:26:37,861 --> 00:26:41,061 Speaker 5: from being a victim. And it seems sometimes in a 500 00:26:41,262 --> 00:26:44,502 Speaker 5: court that there's sort of an assumption that it does, 501 00:26:44,821 --> 00:26:46,701 Speaker 5: and in fact, she enjoyed all of this. Well, she 502 00:26:46,742 --> 00:26:50,941 Speaker 5: can have enjoyed A and not have wanted B. And 503 00:26:50,982 --> 00:26:55,422 Speaker 5: so these cases are always especially for victims of sexual assault. 504 00:26:55,742 --> 00:26:59,661 Speaker 5: I think that they're incredibly confronting. It's going to be 505 00:26:59,702 --> 00:27:03,741 Speaker 5: particularly confronting because experts think that there is vision of 506 00:27:03,782 --> 00:27:06,621 Speaker 5: a lot of what occurred, and there could be tapes 507 00:27:06,661 --> 00:27:11,982 Speaker 5: played in this courtroom, and some victims claim that they 508 00:27:12,141 --> 00:27:15,262 Speaker 5: were made to look like they enjoyed things or they 509 00:27:15,262 --> 00:27:19,542 Speaker 5: were under the influence of drugs in those particular videos. 510 00:27:19,581 --> 00:27:25,182 Speaker 5: But it will be very damning for a number of celebrities, 511 00:27:25,182 --> 00:27:27,902 Speaker 5: and there will be celebrities named over the next eight 512 00:27:27,942 --> 00:27:29,942 Speaker 5: to ten weeks. 513 00:27:30,581 --> 00:27:34,221 Speaker 3: After the break. If you have a partner and they're breathing, typing, 514 00:27:34,422 --> 00:27:37,542 Speaker 3: or chewing near you right now, that deep rumbling hatred 515 00:27:37,621 --> 00:27:40,621 Speaker 3: you're feeling, it's got a name, and apparently it's a 516 00:27:40,621 --> 00:27:41,061 Speaker 3: good thing. 517 00:27:41,702 --> 00:27:44,421 Speaker 1: Do you want daily outloud access? Why wouldn't you? We 518 00:27:44,581 --> 00:27:49,581 Speaker 1: drop episides every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Muma MEA subscribers. 519 00:27:49,861 --> 00:27:51,542 Speaker 1: Follow the link in the show notes to get us 520 00:27:51,581 --> 00:27:54,141 Speaker 1: in your ears five days a week and a huge 521 00:27:54,141 --> 00:27:56,181 Speaker 1: thank you if you're already a subscriber. 522 00:28:00,821 --> 00:28:03,101 Speaker 4: What is normal marital hatred? 523 00:28:04,182 --> 00:28:11,981 Speaker 6: The essential rhythm of all relationships is harmony, disharmony and repair, closeness, disruption, 524 00:28:12,581 --> 00:28:15,261 Speaker 6: and a return to closeness. That's where the skills come in, 525 00:28:15,302 --> 00:28:18,502 Speaker 6: how to move from disruption to repair. Our culture doesn't 526 00:28:18,542 --> 00:28:22,901 Speaker 6: teach it. We don't deal with reality. The father of 527 00:28:23,302 --> 00:28:26,661 Speaker 6: couple's therapy back in the fifties said, the day you 528 00:28:26,821 --> 00:28:29,901 Speaker 6: turn to the person who's next to you and you say, 529 00:28:30,022 --> 00:28:32,621 Speaker 6: this is a mistake I've been had, This is not 530 00:28:32,782 --> 00:28:35,061 Speaker 6: the person I fell in love with, that said FRAMO 531 00:28:35,262 --> 00:28:36,861 Speaker 6: is the first day of your real Mary. 532 00:28:37,182 --> 00:28:39,822 Speaker 3: The voice you just heard is a guy called Dr 533 00:28:39,902 --> 00:28:42,822 Speaker 3: Terry Reel, and he was on the Tim Ferris podcast, 534 00:28:43,182 --> 00:28:45,022 Speaker 3: and he's a guy who has lots of letters after 535 00:28:45,062 --> 00:28:46,902 Speaker 3: his name that Jesse would think were very important for 536 00:28:46,942 --> 00:28:48,862 Speaker 3: me to tell you, but I'm choosing just to tell 537 00:28:48,902 --> 00:28:51,742 Speaker 3: you that he's worked in couple's therapy for a really 538 00:28:51,782 --> 00:28:54,382 Speaker 3: long time, and he says that he's been going around 539 00:28:54,422 --> 00:28:57,982 Speaker 3: the world talking about what he calls normal marital hatred 540 00:28:58,661 --> 00:29:01,622 Speaker 3: for years and not one person has ever come to 541 00:29:01,661 --> 00:29:04,862 Speaker 3: him afterwards and said, I don't know what you're talking about. 542 00:29:06,622 --> 00:29:09,501 Speaker 5: Except for Holly, who says, can I have normal marital 543 00:29:09,622 --> 00:29:11,022 Speaker 5: hatred if I am not married? 544 00:29:11,342 --> 00:29:11,902 Speaker 1: Exactly? 545 00:29:13,062 --> 00:29:16,661 Speaker 3: Does normal marital hatred sound familiar to you? To married 546 00:29:16,661 --> 00:29:20,782 Speaker 3: people who have been married for about two issues and 547 00:29:20,862 --> 00:29:26,302 Speaker 3: twenty ish years, respectively. Does normal marital hatred resonate? 548 00:29:26,622 --> 00:29:31,062 Speaker 5: I had no questions after listening to that excerpt, I went, yeah, 549 00:29:31,142 --> 00:29:33,622 Speaker 5: play on that. I have no questions. I did a 550 00:29:33,622 --> 00:29:37,062 Speaker 5: bit of research into it, and this therapist has had 551 00:29:37,142 --> 00:29:40,462 Speaker 5: a lot of criticism and a lot of blowback, especially 552 00:29:40,822 --> 00:29:45,781 Speaker 5: from female therapists who want to make clear that you 553 00:29:45,822 --> 00:29:49,662 Speaker 5: don't undermine your instincts. If you hate your partner, If 554 00:29:49,661 --> 00:29:52,461 Speaker 5: you hate your partner every day for three years, that 555 00:29:52,622 --> 00:29:55,502 Speaker 5: is not normal marital hatred. And of course, in cases 556 00:29:55,582 --> 00:29:59,262 Speaker 5: of abuse or anything sinister, you listen to that gut instinct. 557 00:29:59,902 --> 00:30:03,102 Speaker 5: But there's a lot of discussion around the word hate, 558 00:30:03,142 --> 00:30:07,582 Speaker 5: and I think it's almost a definitional tension because hatred 559 00:30:07,702 --> 00:30:13,902 Speaker 5: means intense dislike, checks out, opposition or revulsion towards something. Yep, 560 00:30:14,022 --> 00:30:17,902 Speaker 5: that's what I mean. And it can pass very quickly. 561 00:30:18,342 --> 00:30:21,142 Speaker 5: So some people have said, compare it to how you 562 00:30:21,142 --> 00:30:24,862 Speaker 5: feel about a sibling, Like I know the feeling of 563 00:30:24,902 --> 00:30:30,262 Speaker 5: having intense hatred for Claire one minute and then going, hey, 564 00:30:30,582 --> 00:30:32,982 Speaker 5: do you want to eat some chocolate? And it passes 565 00:30:33,382 --> 00:30:38,422 Speaker 5: like very very quickly. But close personal relationships lead to 566 00:30:38,542 --> 00:30:41,661 Speaker 5: such an intensity of feeling, And do you see parts 567 00:30:41,702 --> 00:30:43,261 Speaker 5: of them that are ugly? You see parts of your 568 00:30:43,262 --> 00:30:46,502 Speaker 5: self reflected back that are ugly. That's surely a sign 569 00:30:46,542 --> 00:30:49,822 Speaker 5: of real intimacy. If you have fleeting moments of hatred 570 00:30:49,982 --> 00:30:52,422 Speaker 5: mayor do you hate your husband some of the time 571 00:30:52,502 --> 00:30:53,502 Speaker 5: or all of the time. 572 00:30:54,462 --> 00:30:56,262 Speaker 1: Not all of the time. A, You're right, I think 573 00:30:56,302 --> 00:31:00,542 Speaker 1: it's about duration that's important. I know that in that moment, 574 00:31:01,182 --> 00:31:03,862 Speaker 1: and I've experienced that moment enough times, as I'm sure 575 00:31:03,862 --> 00:31:06,941 Speaker 1: he has, where you just go, oh, I can't imagine 576 00:31:06,942 --> 00:31:10,422 Speaker 1: anyway back from this. I can't imagine ever not feeling 577 00:31:10,462 --> 00:31:14,981 Speaker 1: this way about you. And sometimes I guess, well, for us, 578 00:31:15,022 --> 00:31:18,502 Speaker 1: it hasn't been true yet. Oh, I guess it was 579 00:31:18,542 --> 00:31:20,102 Speaker 1: true at one point because we did split up. But 580 00:31:20,782 --> 00:31:23,502 Speaker 1: I think you're right, like I also can't hold onto 581 00:31:23,622 --> 00:31:27,582 Speaker 1: things for very long. I've also been in relationships before 582 00:31:27,661 --> 00:31:32,262 Speaker 1: him where I felt that and it didn't pass, and 583 00:31:32,902 --> 00:31:36,102 Speaker 1: that feeling it's a different feeling because that was an 584 00:31:36,102 --> 00:31:40,582 Speaker 1: abusive relationship that I needed to end, and even though 585 00:31:40,742 --> 00:31:43,142 Speaker 1: I didn't feel that way all the time, because there 586 00:31:43,142 --> 00:31:46,181 Speaker 1: were incredible highs in that relationship, as there often are 587 00:31:46,782 --> 00:31:51,982 Speaker 1: in abusive relationships. There were incredible highs, but the lows 588 00:31:52,062 --> 00:31:57,222 Speaker 1: just felt different. They didn't feel fleeting, they felt fundamental, 589 00:31:57,422 --> 00:32:00,382 Speaker 1: and so much of it actually was not how I 590 00:32:00,382 --> 00:32:03,022 Speaker 1: felt about the person, but how I felt about myself 591 00:32:03,102 --> 00:32:04,222 Speaker 1: in those low moments. 592 00:32:04,661 --> 00:32:07,622 Speaker 3: And that's also can be when you feel the normal 593 00:32:07,702 --> 00:32:10,342 Speaker 3: nratal hatred in a vert Commas die directed at you. 594 00:32:10,982 --> 00:32:13,782 Speaker 3: Because we're talking a lot about this, like I can't 595 00:32:13,782 --> 00:32:15,942 Speaker 3: bear it when they do this thing. I can't bear 596 00:32:15,982 --> 00:32:18,782 Speaker 3: it when they type too loudly, breathe too loudly, put 597 00:32:18,782 --> 00:32:22,342 Speaker 3: that thing on there, you know whatever. But when you 598 00:32:22,582 --> 00:32:24,982 Speaker 3: feel it back at you, when you think, oh my god, 599 00:32:25,622 --> 00:32:30,781 Speaker 3: they hate me right now, that's very confronting, right And 600 00:32:30,822 --> 00:32:32,421 Speaker 3: one of the points that this guy makes. And I'm 601 00:32:32,422 --> 00:32:34,941 Speaker 3: glad you brought that context, Jesse, because when I first 602 00:32:34,942 --> 00:32:37,181 Speaker 3: saw this, and I don't know a great deal about him, 603 00:32:37,222 --> 00:32:38,701 Speaker 3: I was like, he sounds a bit like he's got 604 00:32:38,742 --> 00:32:41,302 Speaker 3: an agenda, Like he sounds a bit like he would 605 00:32:41,382 --> 00:32:45,782 Speaker 3: like women in particular maybe to stay in unhappy marriages 606 00:32:45,822 --> 00:32:47,822 Speaker 3: for a long time, which sometimes the kind of code 607 00:32:47,862 --> 00:32:50,862 Speaker 3: of you can get past it is code for you know, 608 00:32:51,182 --> 00:32:54,262 Speaker 3: stay where you are. And I think that that obviously 609 00:32:54,302 --> 00:32:57,662 Speaker 3: is not ideal. But the reason that obviously this catch phrase, 610 00:32:57,702 --> 00:33:00,422 Speaker 3: this normal marital hatred, travels so far is we all 611 00:33:00,462 --> 00:33:02,862 Speaker 3: feel it. And then when we have to recognize that 612 00:33:02,982 --> 00:33:06,462 Speaker 3: sometimes people feeling about us too, it shifts the way 613 00:33:06,502 --> 00:33:08,741 Speaker 3: you look at it. But if you're constantly feeling like 614 00:33:08,782 --> 00:33:11,662 Speaker 3: your partner doesn't like you, doesn't value you, all those things, 615 00:33:11,661 --> 00:33:12,462 Speaker 3: it's a different thing. 616 00:33:12,862 --> 00:33:17,102 Speaker 5: I was reading that all relationships, all close relationships, are 617 00:33:17,182 --> 00:33:19,981 Speaker 5: like a relational weather system, where there are storms and 618 00:33:20,022 --> 00:33:24,302 Speaker 5: there's springtime, and there's flowers and blue skies and frozen 619 00:33:24,342 --> 00:33:28,342 Speaker 5: pipes and electrical outages and all of that. And I 620 00:33:28,422 --> 00:33:32,701 Speaker 5: actually think we can also apply it to podcast host 621 00:33:33,342 --> 00:33:36,782 Speaker 5: hatred because there would be moments where, like, we spend 622 00:33:37,062 --> 00:33:39,062 Speaker 5: too much time together. I'm sure we can all agree, 623 00:33:39,062 --> 00:33:41,782 Speaker 5: and especially we've been touring tonight, we're on stage together, 624 00:33:42,342 --> 00:33:48,142 Speaker 5: there can be a moment where you just go oh maa, oh, holly, ugh, yeah, 625 00:33:48,182 --> 00:33:51,582 Speaker 5: and you feel this frustration, but it lifts as quickly 626 00:33:51,582 --> 00:33:55,262 Speaker 5: as it came on. And I think Esther Perrell talks 627 00:33:55,262 --> 00:33:57,502 Speaker 5: about I think the four horsemen of like what you 628 00:33:57,582 --> 00:33:59,662 Speaker 5: can't come back from, and her big thing is resentment 629 00:34:00,182 --> 00:34:04,662 Speaker 5: and how toxic resentment is to any relationship. You can 630 00:34:04,702 --> 00:34:08,662 Speaker 5: hate someone briefly, it doesn't imprint. It's like a feeling 631 00:34:08,702 --> 00:34:12,622 Speaker 5: of intense irritate more than anything, and then you forgive it. 632 00:34:12,782 --> 00:34:15,342 Speaker 3: And also it's like if you didn't care about someone 633 00:34:15,382 --> 00:34:18,301 Speaker 3: at all, you wouldn't have those powerful feelings about them. 634 00:34:18,382 --> 00:34:23,821 Speaker 3: It's like, I only get profoundly irritated or invested enough 635 00:34:23,822 --> 00:34:26,181 Speaker 3: to care about people who are close to me. If 636 00:34:26,221 --> 00:34:28,341 Speaker 3: I don't care at all, it's a sign that you're 637 00:34:28,382 --> 00:34:30,381 Speaker 3: not important in my life, you know what I mean? 638 00:34:30,622 --> 00:34:30,701 Speaker 4: Oh? 639 00:34:30,781 --> 00:34:32,741 Speaker 1: No, I have strong feelings about lots of people who 640 00:34:32,741 --> 00:34:37,382 Speaker 1: aren't important, who I've never met before. I have a question. 641 00:34:37,781 --> 00:34:42,261 Speaker 1: Does no marital hatred, which apparently you can come back from, 642 00:34:42,542 --> 00:34:43,942 Speaker 1: how does it compare to the ick? 643 00:34:44,342 --> 00:34:46,901 Speaker 3: Yeah? It sounds a lot like the ick, doesn't it. Well. 644 00:34:46,942 --> 00:34:49,062 Speaker 3: I've always pushed back on the idea you can't come 645 00:34:49,062 --> 00:34:51,181 Speaker 3: back from a nick. I think if you couldn't come 646 00:34:51,221 --> 00:34:53,821 Speaker 3: back from an ick, then no one would ever stay 647 00:34:53,822 --> 00:34:56,582 Speaker 3: in a long relationship because there are always going to 648 00:34:56,582 --> 00:34:59,102 Speaker 3: be times in a relationship when you're living in close 649 00:34:59,142 --> 00:35:02,421 Speaker 3: proximity with someone, sharing a bathroom with someone, watching them 650 00:35:02,422 --> 00:35:04,221 Speaker 3: eat and do all of the intimate things that we 651 00:35:04,261 --> 00:35:06,462 Speaker 3: do all the time, that someone you love is going 652 00:35:06,542 --> 00:35:08,822 Speaker 3: to give you the ick. I believe you can bounce 653 00:35:08,862 --> 00:35:11,542 Speaker 3: back from the ick if the other respects are in place. 654 00:35:11,622 --> 00:35:12,382 Speaker 3: That's what I think. 655 00:35:12,701 --> 00:35:15,142 Speaker 5: I reckon. This is so different to the ick, the 656 00:35:15,221 --> 00:35:17,301 Speaker 5: feeling of I will be having an argument with my 657 00:35:17,822 --> 00:35:20,982 Speaker 5: sister or Luca will have done something the other day. 658 00:35:20,982 --> 00:35:22,902 Speaker 5: I had a really frustrating day and I had to 659 00:35:22,942 --> 00:35:25,341 Speaker 5: blame it on someone, and it really worked when I 660 00:35:25,382 --> 00:35:29,221 Speaker 5: decided it was Luca's far And you almost want to 661 00:35:29,261 --> 00:35:31,661 Speaker 5: say I hate you, like you just want to say it. 662 00:35:31,741 --> 00:35:34,502 Speaker 5: You know you don't mean it. You know it's not 663 00:35:34,542 --> 00:35:38,542 Speaker 5: about anything. You couldn't even really explain why. But you're 664 00:35:38,542 --> 00:35:43,702 Speaker 5: not disgusted by them. You're just filled up with anger. 665 00:35:43,862 --> 00:35:47,502 Speaker 5: And I reckon that parenting compounds that, because you know 666 00:35:48,062 --> 00:35:51,982 Speaker 5: that you shouldn't hate your kids. So there are moments 667 00:35:51,982 --> 00:35:55,422 Speaker 5: where like your buttons are being pushed and your patience 668 00:35:55,781 --> 00:35:59,582 Speaker 5: is all being invested into this little person who doesn't 669 00:35:59,582 --> 00:36:02,781 Speaker 5: know any better. But your partner can handle it, and 670 00:36:02,862 --> 00:36:06,341 Speaker 5: so you kind of re orient it towards them. 671 00:36:06,942 --> 00:36:09,701 Speaker 3: That's all we've got time for today, out louders, I 672 00:36:09,701 --> 00:36:12,261 Speaker 3: hope you've enjoyed listening to today's show, and massive thank 673 00:36:12,342 --> 00:36:14,341 Speaker 3: you for our fabulous team for putting it together under 674 00:36:14,502 --> 00:36:18,022 Speaker 3: tough circumstances, everybody being in a different place. We will 675 00:36:18,062 --> 00:36:19,502 Speaker 3: be back in your ears tomorrow. 676 00:36:19,701 --> 00:36:21,701 Speaker 5: Can I ask, do you reckon that our audience has 677 00:36:21,781 --> 00:36:22,982 Speaker 5: normal hatred towards us? 678 00:36:23,022 --> 00:36:24,221 Speaker 3: Sometimes? Definitely? 679 00:36:24,622 --> 00:36:26,301 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Like on. 680 00:36:26,302 --> 00:36:28,381 Speaker 5: A bad day, they chuck us in and they go, 681 00:36:28,701 --> 00:36:31,662 Speaker 5: Jesse is pissing me off today. 682 00:36:32,022 --> 00:36:35,062 Speaker 1: I think that's when they like shout also at like 683 00:36:35,142 --> 00:36:37,102 Speaker 1: they might be in the car, or they later shout 684 00:36:37,102 --> 00:36:39,222 Speaker 1: in their heads. Sometimes they say they shout out loud 685 00:36:39,902 --> 00:36:40,422 Speaker 1: at us. 686 00:36:40,582 --> 00:36:42,782 Speaker 5: I reckon when you're feeling like that totally valid feeling, 687 00:36:42,822 --> 00:36:44,741 Speaker 5: I reckon. You don't got to leave a review. I 688 00:36:44,741 --> 00:36:45,462 Speaker 5: think that's fine. 689 00:36:46,342 --> 00:36:47,622 Speaker 1: That's a good time to step away. 690 00:36:47,862 --> 00:36:51,341 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, a review if you are looking for something 691 00:36:51,382 --> 00:36:53,302 Speaker 5: else to listen to. This is if you're not feeling 692 00:36:53,302 --> 00:36:57,502 Speaker 5: profound hatred right now. On yesterday's episode, we invited Amelia 693 00:36:57,582 --> 00:37:01,542 Speaker 5: Lester on the show to share her story about being 694 00:37:01,661 --> 00:37:05,542 Speaker 5: at Harvard University with Mark Zuckerberg. We should say we 695 00:37:05,822 --> 00:37:09,181 Speaker 5: forced Amelia Leicester show us his story. Amelia is not 696 00:37:10,181 --> 00:37:12,542 Speaker 5: kind of going through the world going ask me about Mark. 697 00:37:13,302 --> 00:37:16,542 Speaker 1: This wasn't her idea. It wasn't because there was someone 698 00:37:16,622 --> 00:37:20,222 Speaker 1: with intense hatred in that moment who left a review. 699 00:37:20,302 --> 00:37:23,421 Speaker 1: Last time she mentioned Mark Zuckerberg and Harvard. But we're 700 00:37:23,462 --> 00:37:25,301 Speaker 1: always the ones that bring it up, so we want 701 00:37:25,302 --> 00:37:26,661 Speaker 1: to make that clear, and. 702 00:37:26,582 --> 00:37:29,062 Speaker 5: In our private lives, we should say Amelia doesn't even 703 00:37:29,102 --> 00:37:30,341 Speaker 5: bring up Mark Zuckerberg as. 704 00:37:30,342 --> 00:37:31,982 Speaker 1: Much as I would if at one time. 705 00:37:32,462 --> 00:37:35,542 Speaker 5: So look, if you are interested, it is so interesting. 706 00:37:35,582 --> 00:37:37,582 Speaker 5: She tells us all about it, what he was like, 707 00:37:37,862 --> 00:37:39,102 Speaker 5: what it's been like since. 708 00:37:39,422 --> 00:37:41,861 Speaker 1: Except when she wears that sweatshirt that says Harvard and 709 00:37:41,982 --> 00:37:43,261 Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg signed it. 710 00:37:43,422 --> 00:37:45,781 Speaker 5: Signed it, that's actually very true. And when she gets 711 00:37:45,781 --> 00:37:48,142 Speaker 5: her phone out and she goes hey Mark and like 712 00:37:48,302 --> 00:37:50,462 Speaker 5: she's not him on the phone, then that's a bit arrogant. 713 00:37:50,502 --> 00:37:51,941 Speaker 1: But I'm just going to text my friend Mark. 714 00:37:52,142 --> 00:37:55,742 Speaker 5: Yes, we had a few questions for her. So listen 715 00:37:55,781 --> 00:37:58,781 Speaker 5: to yesterday's subscriber episode. There is a link in our 716 00:37:58,822 --> 00:38:03,221 Speaker 5: show notes. As always, Bye bye, shout out to any 717 00:38:03,261 --> 00:38:05,821 Speaker 5: Mum and Me a subscribers listening. If you love the 718 00:38:05,862 --> 00:38:08,622 Speaker 5: show and you want to support us, subscribing to Mom 719 00:38:08,622 --> 00:38:10,861 Speaker 5: and Mia is the very best way to do so. 720 00:38:11,221 --> 00:38:12,982 Speaker 5: There's a link in the episode description.