WEBVTT - Harrison James: What Every Parent Should Know About Grooming 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:03.000 I didn't have the language at the time to say, yeah, 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:06.240 you know this is wrong, or because it felt good 0:00:06.240 --> 0:00:09.240 to be loved and appreciated and to as a thirteen 0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:11.680 year old boy to have sex. You know, it was 0:00:12.000 --> 0:00:13.360 I thought I was the king of the world. And 0:00:13.400 --> 0:00:15.880 you've got this societal sort of grooming outside of that 0:00:15.960 --> 0:00:19.720 as well, where you've got porn categories like stepmom or 0:00:19.800 --> 0:00:22.640 teen and you think, oh, but it's in the media, 0:00:22.720 --> 0:00:26.239 and it's in you know, like I got lucky. I 0:00:26.400 --> 0:00:30.120 was better than any kid at school, you know, because 0:00:30.160 --> 0:00:31.920 I was scoring an older woman. 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:35.840 Hello, I'm Kate lane Brook, host of No Filter. Today's 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:41.080 guest is Harrison. James. Harrison has lived through a story 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:46.040 that is almost impossible to comprehend. At thirteen years old, 0:00:46.120 --> 0:00:50.080 after years of upheaval in his family life, Harrison moved 0:00:50.080 --> 0:00:53.360 in with his father, hoping to reconnect with him and 0:00:53.400 --> 0:00:58.040 find the stability he'd been missing. Instead, he found himself 0:00:58.080 --> 0:01:01.400 at the center of a situation no child should ever 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:06.280 have to navigate. Between the ages of thirteen and sixteen, 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:10.800 Harrison was sexually abused by his stepmother, But one of 0:01:10.800 --> 0:01:13.760 the most confronting aspects of his story is that for 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:18.319 years afterwards, he didn't fully understand what had happened to 0:01:18.400 --> 0:01:24.400 him was abuse. Like many survivors of grooming, Harrison believed 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:28.880 he was in a relationship. At fifteen, his stepmother gave 0:01:28.959 --> 0:01:33.880 birth to a daughter who was biologically his child. For years, 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:37.240 Harrison lived with the secret that the little girl everyone 0:01:37.280 --> 0:01:43.280 believed was his sister was actually his daughter. In this conversation, 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:51.640 Harrison speaks openly about grooming, trauma, abuse, fatherhood, family estrangement, 0:01:51.920 --> 0:01:56.160 mental health, and the long journey towards understanding what happened 0:01:56.200 --> 0:01:59.880 to him. We also talk about the daughter he has 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:03.360 scene for years, the father who still doesn't believe him, 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:07.800 and how he transformed his own experience into a campaign 0:02:08.280 --> 0:02:12.480 that helped change laws across Australia. While we don't discuss 0:02:12.600 --> 0:02:15.960 child sexual abuse in graphic detail, it is central to 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:20.800 this conversation. So please this and mindfully. This is Harrison 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:28.400 James on No Filter. Harrison James, welcome to No Filter. 0:02:28.600 --> 0:02:30.040 Thank you so much for having me on Cake. 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:37.560 I have read your book, and well thank you for 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:42.639 writing this. The book is called Transform Your Pain into Purpose. 0:02:43.000 --> 0:02:47.240 You need to have pain to transform in order to 0:02:47.280 --> 0:02:52.359 transform it into purpose, and that certainly you have had 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:56.880 plenty of in your kind of relatively short life. And 0:02:56.919 --> 0:03:01.040 it started when you were a young boy. 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:04.640 Yeah, when I was thirteen. I'm twenty six now, by 0:03:04.680 --> 0:03:04.959 the way. 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:08.799 Okay, so even if I was to take you further back, 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:11.760 or you were to take us further back to your 0:03:11.880 --> 0:03:15.679 growing up, what was Harrison like then? 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:19.160 Oh? Yeah, No, I was quite a reserved and shy 0:03:19.320 --> 0:03:23.280 kid and I but I was also super creative and 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:26.200 I think you know, I love drawing. I loved all 0:03:26.200 --> 0:03:29.040 of that. But there was also a facade. I learned 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:33.080 from a very early age what a tumultual household was like, 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:35.120 and I think that's what primed me for the sexual 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:37.720 abuse that I ended up experiencing at thirty because there was. 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:42.000 Always a violence in your home. Yeah, so I've traded 0:03:42.040 --> 0:03:43.080 by your father. 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:48.400 Correct, Yeah, so my father was physically abusive towards your mother, 0:03:48.720 --> 0:03:49.760 towards and the kids. 0:03:50.200 --> 0:03:52.560 And also okay, and there were four. 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:54.880 Four there's four children. I'm the eldest of four. So 0:03:54.920 --> 0:03:58.080 I can't speak for the other kids because they're going 0:03:58.120 --> 0:04:00.680 their own way about things, which is more fine. But 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:05.800 for me, I experienced you know, physical abuse, emotional abused, 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:08.840 mental abuse, all those things. He was a very violent man. 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:11.080 He would come through the house like a hurricane most 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:14.160 of the time. You know, I talk about it in 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:17.560 the book. You know, there was this notion of I 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:20.440 wasn't good enough because I was into acting and art, 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:22.800 and you know, I was sort of that sort of kid. 0:04:22.839 --> 0:04:26.640 And I remember my father and Fury one time, like 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:30.280 he would throw his full weight onto my neck and 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:33.640 I wouldn't be able to breathe. Sometimes he catapulted a 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:36.760 fork across the room. It landed in my eye. And 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:38.480 so there was a myriad of things where it was 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:41.760 a very violent household and it was like stepping on 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:45.880 you know, it's like you're in a minefield essentially. 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:50.239 Because I think you can you can break a child 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:54.040 more easily than you can make a child. Yes, so 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:58.800 you learn at a very young age too, do what 0:04:59.000 --> 0:05:02.040 retreating to your sell for to always be on guard? 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:05.080 Well, yeah, and it's also it's a phenomenon. So we 0:05:05.200 --> 0:05:08.400 hear about flight and fight all the time. Yeah, but 0:05:08.440 --> 0:05:11.839 there's this other phenomenon called fawning. And I was constantly fawning, 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:14.000 which is where you retreat into yourself and sort of 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:16.719 cater to the adults around you or the people around you, 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:18.839 I should say, to keep them having to keep the peace. 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:22.400 And yeah, and like I was always preempting, you know, 0:05:22.800 --> 0:05:25.799 a violent blow up or you know, the worst possible 0:05:25.800 --> 0:05:28.159 thing that could happen. So I was always ten steps ahead, 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:30.520 even as a child, and that formed into you know, 0:05:30.680 --> 0:05:35.240 anxiety and all these awful things where you're constantly preempting 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:38.800 the worst possible outcome to save yourself. And you would 0:05:38.880 --> 0:05:41.640 I was constantly reverse engineering my next move. 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:46.520 Right of course, Yeah, because you even though the pattern 0:05:46.560 --> 0:05:49.840 is unpredictable, you know that it's coming. So you are 0:05:50.080 --> 0:05:53.120 living in this state of anticipation. 0:05:52.560 --> 0:05:53.359 Yeah, and fear. 0:05:53.760 --> 0:05:54.039 Right. 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:57.800 And you know that's common amongst survivors of domestic and 0:05:57.839 --> 0:06:01.560 family violence. It's you know, not just amongst children too, 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:04.520 but amongst women in domestic violence relationships. You know, it's 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:09.240 a common fawning is a common you know, retreat practice 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:13.520 to ensure that you're safe. Yeah, and that's how I 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:17.000 was raised. And I think that's sort of that progression 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:19.799 and that slow erosion of my own identity. I didn't 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:23.960 have my own identity, but that sort of primed me 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:27.279 for the sexual abuse I went on to experience. 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:31.520 Unfortunately, when you were. So you're talking in your book 0:06:31.560 --> 0:06:36.720 about when you were eight, one of many incidents with 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:41.560 your mum where you tried to come to her aid, 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:47.599 what was that feeling for you as a little boy, 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:51.680 because you knew that you would obviously incur the wrath 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:57.120 and fury of your dad, but your loyalty and your. 0:06:57.279 --> 0:06:59.560 Love for my mom. Yeah, for your mom, it just 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:01.600 came through and I remember, yeah, I was on the 0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:04.720 thing that you're talking about with in the book was 0:07:04.760 --> 0:07:06.880 when I was sitting on the top the top bunk 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:11.920 and my mother. My dad came home in this drunken 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:15.160 rage of fury and his head was like bright red. 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:18.480 I remember it being like bee troop red almost, and 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:22.800 he was abusing Mum and Mum I think mum has 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:25.280 felt Mum was pregnant, and I felt as though she 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:28.000 thought coming into our room would put him at bay. 0:07:28.560 --> 0:07:31.040 But then he took his belt off corner and went 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:33.679 to but I jumped on his back from the top bunk, 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:38.600 and I remember, I don't remember what like, I don't 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:42.760 remember a specific you know, memory or thought that went 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:44.960 processed through my head to want me to do that. 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:47.320 I think it was just more instinctual that I wanted 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:51.160 to protect my mother, and people would always tell me, 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:53.600 even from a very young age, oh, you're so, you're 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:57.080 so wise beyond your years. You're this, you're very mature. 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:02.200 And looking back on that now with hindsight, it's all 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:06.320 just you know, that fawning that as I was talking 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:10.280 about that preempting of abuse, that you know, had that 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:12.520 thing of survival. I had to survive. It was a 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:15.360 survival mechanism to be like that, because it was the 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:17.000 only way you could get through those moments. 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:22.000 But even in even though you had learned what by 0:08:22.040 --> 0:08:26.280 the age of eight, what the outcome would be, you 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:32.040 still showed this instinctive bravery, which I'm going to say 0:08:32.240 --> 0:08:35.440 I think has proven to be kind of a template 0:08:35.520 --> 0:08:36.760 for you in life. 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:37.560 Oh thank you. 0:08:38.120 --> 0:08:40.920 But it's amazing, isn't it, Because it's not always the 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:43.920 case and you're talking. Also, you mentioned this in your book, 0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:47.200 and this is well known that a lot of people 0:08:47.240 --> 0:08:50.520 who have lived with abuse, sexual abuse, because of the 0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:53.120 shame that's attached to it in a myriad of reasons, 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:58.480 take a long time to come out, to say it 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:00.280 out loud, to walk in the light. 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:03.000 It's an average of twenty one and a half years 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:05.880 before a survivor of child sexual abuse will ever come 0:09:05.920 --> 0:09:07.640 forward with what they've experienced. 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:11.960 Yeah, and we understand why. Yeah, but for you, that 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:13.040 was not the path. 0:09:13.800 --> 0:09:18.160 No, it wasn't. I think it wasn't the path because 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:23.280 of circumstances outside of my control. Really, after experiencing child 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:26.200 sexual abuse from the ages of thirteen to sixteen, and 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:29.640 then you know, staying quiet about it because my daughter 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:32.760 was involved as well, which we'll get into, I didn't 0:09:32.760 --> 0:09:34.840 even know it was abuse what I was experiencing, even 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:37.760 at nineteen, after all those years, I thought I was 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:42.000 complicit in the relationship with my stepmother. 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:45.440 Okay, so let's go back a little bit. Yeah, so 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:48.840 the by this stage, your mum has four children with 0:09:48.920 --> 0:09:54.600 your dad. Yes, they divorced when your team at that point, 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:57.280 did the divorce almost feel like a relief? 0:09:58.600 --> 0:10:01.120 No, because there were moments my father would just come 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:03.920 around unannounced and bang on the glass, and we mom 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:06.160 would just draw the curtains and we'd be watching TV 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:08.680 and we turn off the volume so it would drown 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:10.760 out my dad banging on the glass and hurling abuse 0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:11.240 at my mother. 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:18.640 Right, So there was no sense of safety or release, No, 0:10:18.800 --> 0:10:22.199 nothing like that. It was always acrimonious between them. 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:27.120 Yeah. Yeah, and it wasn't my mother as well. You know, 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:31.040 she was subjected to violence for many, many years and 0:10:31.120 --> 0:10:34.240 post that divorce, you know, there was a moment where 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:36.920 on my twelfth birthday where I woke up to my 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:39.680 mum she was bruised and beaten and taken to a hospital. 0:10:41.360 --> 0:10:44.320 And you know, from your dad, from my dad, Yeah, 0:10:44.360 --> 0:10:45.960 he followed her home one night. She was at a 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:47.800 party and he followed her and she couldn't get in 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:51.199 the front door us four kids with my auntie, so 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:53.280 she went down into the granny flat at the back 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:55.520 and he followed it in the granny flat and beat 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:58.280 her to a pulp. And that was the case that 0:10:58.320 --> 0:11:01.080 went to court where he got good character references. 0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:07.840 Okay, we'll get to that as well. So then you're thirteen, 0:11:08.720 --> 0:11:13.679 your dad remarries a woman from the Philippines. Where did 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:14.120 they meet? 0:11:14.760 --> 0:11:17.280 I have no idea. He would travel to the Philippines 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:22.559 regularly during that period of divorce, I believe, and they 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:25.839 met over there and he brought her back to Australia 0:11:26.120 --> 0:11:28.360 and married her, and she got a visa and everything 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:28.800 like that. 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:33.480 And then so that from that period from when you 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:35.800 were ten to thirteen, you weren't living with your dad. 0:11:36.160 --> 0:11:39.600 No, No, I'd see him on occasion if he was 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:43.440 picking up like my siblings, but they'd come back within 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:45.880 the within the next few hours because he would he 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:47.720 would do something that would upset them. 0:11:48.080 --> 0:11:50.040 Right, So you pick up your siblings but not pick 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:50.400 up you. 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:53.040 Yeah, well I just refused to go. I've always felt 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:56.000 uncomfortable going and stuff like that. And then by the 0:11:56.040 --> 0:11:58.880 time I was thirteen, oh, you know, I was in 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:03.199 year eight. I you know, I had no I was 0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:05.640 raised by my mother, my grandmother and all my aunties, 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:08.240 so it was very you know, it was a maternal 0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:12.160 sort of environment that I was in constantly. So I 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:15.160 was really striving for some male you know. 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:23.319 Yes, of a young boy emerging into manhood. The hunger 0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:24.400 for a man. 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:26.120 Is is it's real? 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:28.800 Yes, it's real, and I think it's underestimated. 0:12:28.920 --> 0:12:32.480 Yes. So, And because my father had gone, I hadn't 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:34.680 seen him for so long by that point, or I 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:37.200 saw him sparingly. I felt as though that was my 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:40.400 only option and or maybe he's changed. So then we 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:43.600 started going to the gym together. And I hate any 0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:46.400 sort of physical activity. I don't do sport or anything 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:48.960 that he's into. But going to the gym together was 0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:50.880 a way for us to connect, and I thought, oh, 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:53.840 he's been really nice to me. Now, how nice is this? 0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:56.520 This is all I've ever wanted. Our dad really has changed. 0:12:57.320 --> 0:12:59.920 And then that's when I decided to move in with him. 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:02.559 And you know, being the eldest of four in a household, 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:05.760 you know, it's quite an attractive offer to go live 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:08.480 with my dad, have my own bedroom, be right near 0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:10.960 the beach, one bus away from school, like it was. 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:13.520 It was sort of a no brainer at that time. 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:16.880 And I had this sense of freedom away from my 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:19.640 siblings and I was with dad. He's been really nice 0:13:19.640 --> 0:13:22.840 to me. Things have changed. But his wife was in 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:26.320 the house, and initially I didn't have that. I didn't 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:27.520 have any interaction with her. 0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:29.760 Really, did you know her at all before? 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:30.480 Not before? 0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:34.319 So you weren't at the wedding or no, it was nothing, Yeah, 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:36.040 it was nothing like that, right, So she was a 0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:36.880 fae to complay. 0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:39.079 Yeah, this is my new wife. 0:13:39.640 --> 0:13:43.520 So when you're move in a stranger, yeah, yeah. 0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:46.600 And she was just very unassuming. She was sweet and 0:13:46.679 --> 0:13:50.640 soft spoken and just sort of kept to herself really 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:54.520 and then eventually she wanted to sort of she offered 0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:55.679 to take me to the movies. 0:13:56.920 --> 0:13:58.920 How long how long have you been living there. 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:02.520 At the last, oh a fortnight? Not that much of all. Yeah, 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:06.320 less than a month. I could definitely say that. Yeah, 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:08.280 but she often to take me to the movies, and 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:11.720 I went, oh, okay, you know, my stepmother as she's 0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:14.160 trying to reach out and establish a relationship because I'll 0:14:14.200 --> 0:14:16.880 be living here now, she wants to do something friendly 0:14:16.920 --> 0:14:21.280 and nice. And we went to a movie theater and 0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:26.120 saw A Step Up. Yeah, And we were watching that 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:28.880 and then that's when the sort of touching on the 0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:32.320 leg and the hand holding and the I remember her 0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:36.120 rubbing my legs throughout the film, like going inside my 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:40.520 leg yeah, yeah, and and and then you know, we 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:43.680 were hugging. And when we got the bus home and 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:45.480 walked there's a hill that we had to walk up 0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:47.360 to get to the apartment that we were living in 0:14:47.480 --> 0:14:51.240 with my dad in the Eastern suburbs of Sydney, and 0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:54.720 I remember, you know, I was putting my arm around 0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:57.320 her and she was hugging me. And then the first 0:14:57.320 --> 0:15:00.120 thing I remember her specifically saying, oh, do you you 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:03.280 hug your real mum like this, and it was just 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:06.280 now with hindsight, I understand it was that she was 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:09.480 trying to establish that feeling of the fact that I 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:13.160 was complicit in the in the touching, and it was 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:14.120 just a little thing. 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:17.360 But that you're doing it. Yeah, you're the one that's hugging. 0:15:17.720 --> 0:15:21.400 Yes, yeah, yeah, And then soon after that it progressed 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:25.560 to kissing, and then you know, more explicit things and 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:28.240 then yeah, obviously sexual abuse as well. 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:31.680 So wow. 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:37.120 So but it's a gradual erosion of boundaries. And that's 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:39.440 what I'm trying to get at. It's not this when 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:42.200 people say sexual abuse or sexual assault, people think of 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:47.320 this really hyper dramatic, which sometimes sometimes it is, and 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:48.640 I never deny that, but. 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:52.800 Usual context of this, it's classic. 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:56.560 Grooming, yes, exactly, and especially with child sexual abuse. You know, 0:15:56.640 --> 0:15:59.400 these perpetrators, they're experts, are what they do. It's a 0:15:59.440 --> 0:16:02.640 gradual erosion of boundaries, making the victim feel complicit. And 0:16:02.640 --> 0:16:05.440 that's why when a victim finally speaks out, there was 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:09.280 so much shame shrouded around it because they're grappling with 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:11.600 the fact, or even I was grappling with the fact, 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:15.520 Oh no, I wanted this as well. Yeah, yeah, but. 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:18.760 You don't have a vocabulary. You don't have a sexual 0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:21.640 or an emotional vocabulary for any of this. 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:24.840 At this point, I don't even have a developed mind yet, 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:27.240 let alone the language to be able to speak about it. 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:29.680 How much older was she than you? 0:16:29.960 --> 0:16:32.040 Yep, so she was in her mid to late twenties 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:32.480 at the time. 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:37.200 And how was her relationship with your dad? Was that 0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:40.400 like marked by violence as well? 0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:42.560 She would tell me that it was, and I wouldn't 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:45.920 be surprised if it was. But part of me thinks, 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:47.880 was she telling me that for me to feel a 0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:52.000 sort of you know, sensitivity towards her, feel like I 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:53.840 need to help it, like keep me in the loop. 0:16:53.960 --> 0:16:58.680 So I can't verify, but I wouldn't be surprised if 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:01.120 it was either, because I'm Dad's history as well. 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:10.600 So now you're in this position that you're basically living 0:17:10.640 --> 0:17:18.080 with someone who has predatory sexual intent towards you, but 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:23.120 you're being double gained because you're a thirteen year old 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:30.399 old boy, freshly pubescent with all of the confusion and 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:36.639 those attendant urges and whatever. And it's well documented that 0:17:36.640 --> 0:17:39.160 that's one of the things that's often attributed I think 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:43.800 with shame of sexual assault survivors sexual abuse survivors, is 0:17:43.840 --> 0:17:46.560 that because there's a certain degree of pleasure. Of course 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:50.919 there is, that's the whole point of you know, especially. 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:55.560 For young boys, there's actually a physical sort of embodiment 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:58.800 of pleasure, which is, you know, yes, I don't want 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:00.679 to be crashed, but like in the peanis and you 0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:03.240 start to feel that guilt and shame. Well, how was 0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:06.159 I aroused? You know if it wasn't sexual abuse, And 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:09.359 that's a common trope, but the abuse part is the 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:12.560 coercion and the grooming to get to that point as 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:15.880 well as the physical aspect. But there's so many elements. 0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:18.600 To it in that So when you came back for 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:22.359 it from the movies that night and you go into 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:27.960 the house, how is she? How is she the next morning? 0:18:28.080 --> 0:18:30.280 Like when you're in front of your dad, how is 0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:31.400 she towards you? 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:33.760 Well, it was interesting because my dad was starting his 0:18:33.920 --> 0:18:37.800 company at the time that he runs at the moment, 0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:43.359 and it was at the time of establishing that company 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:45.360 he was gone from early hours of the morning till 0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:49.600 late hours of the evening. So the sexual abuse occurred, 0:18:49.760 --> 0:18:52.240 you know, before and after school, and my dad wasn't 0:18:52.280 --> 0:18:54.520 in the house. When my dad was in the house, 0:18:54.880 --> 0:18:58.640 we would just be it was normal. It wasn't like, yeah, 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:03.200 of facade essentially to play pretend in front of my dad. 0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:06.480 And we were having this illicit affair behind my dad's back, 0:19:06.520 --> 0:19:09.000 and it was true love and you know, nobody else 0:19:09.000 --> 0:19:11.080 will understand it, so we can't tell anyone. And she 0:19:11.119 --> 0:19:14.480 would tell me, you know, if you say anything, you 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:16.639 and I can both go to jail. And I remember 0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:18.679 when a police car would go buy me in my 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:21.080 school uniform in my backpack as a thirteen year old, 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:24.880 fourteen year old kid, my stomach would drop because I think, oh, 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:26.840 the cops are going to find out I've done the 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:29.320 wrong thing. And you know, it was it was an 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:30.680 awful experience. 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:38.800 How long between the initial the movie yep and the 0:19:38.840 --> 0:19:41.280 first kind of sexual Yeah. 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:45.199 It was a matter of two weeks. Yeah, So it 0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:48.600 went from the movies the next morning. You know. My 0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:51.960 stepmother was a cleaner for my dad's company, and she 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:54.760 would get the bus to the city and I would 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:56.840 get on the same bus because my school was on 0:19:56.880 --> 0:19:59.439 the way, my high school, so we'd get on the 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:01.199 bus together and we'd make sure to go to the 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:03.800 back row, so no one could see her holding my 0:20:03.880 --> 0:20:05.760 hand or touching my leg or kissing me in the 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:09.760 backseat of the bus. And that's what the next morning was. 0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:15.320 And I don't know if you can answer this or that, 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:20.439 but do you think a part of the part of 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:22.960 the reason that it made it possible for her to 0:20:23.000 --> 0:20:24.600 pray on you, aside from the fact that she had 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:27.720 the power in this house anyway, was because of what 0:20:27.760 --> 0:20:30.119 you had experienced at the hands of your dad. 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:34.720 Oh, undoubtedly. Yeah, what I experienced, the violence that I experienced, 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:38.720 And I want to remind you as well, by this point, 0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:42.439 my dad already become violent again. Right, Yeah, So like 0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:46.760 that feeling of oh, my dad's change, that went away 0:20:46.880 --> 0:20:47.399 very quickly. 0:20:47.680 --> 0:20:53.480 Right, But what was the first can you remember the first? 0:20:54.000 --> 0:20:54.080 Oh? 0:20:54.160 --> 0:20:58.160 I can't recall the experience where you went, Oh, I'd 0:20:58.200 --> 0:21:00.679 get screened out and called a puff and you know, 0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:04.520 an idiot every day, or you know, he'd thrown me 0:21:04.560 --> 0:21:07.439 about or hit me or whatever like it was. 0:21:07.520 --> 0:21:10.160 It was just back to usual how it was when 0:21:10.160 --> 0:21:10.720 I was a kid. 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:13.120 You were still a kid. 0:21:13.440 --> 0:21:14.280 I still was a kid. 0:21:14.320 --> 0:21:15.160 He's still a kid. 0:21:15.280 --> 0:21:20.600 Yeah. But the thing is, well, the violence that I 0:21:20.640 --> 0:21:24.400 experienced it in my household as a younger boy. Primed 0:21:24.440 --> 0:21:28.160 me for the sexual abuse, and my parents' divorce primed 0:21:28.200 --> 0:21:31.880 me for my stepmother to interject and groom me because 0:21:33.520 --> 0:21:36.119 as a kid, you know, I felt as though I 0:21:36.160 --> 0:21:39.080 needed to take a side in my parents' divorce when 0:21:39.080 --> 0:21:41.240 my dad's telling me my mother's the worst in the world, 0:21:41.240 --> 0:21:43.840 and my mom's you know, going through this violence and 0:21:43.880 --> 0:21:47.399 expressing frustration at my father. You know, one day I 0:21:47.400 --> 0:21:49.320 think he's not a great dad. The next day I 0:21:49.320 --> 0:21:52.359 think my mother's awful. And it's this pendulum and there's 0:21:52.359 --> 0:21:55.040 no middle middle ground where I can hold both truths 0:21:55.119 --> 0:21:57.920 at one time. Because I'm being different. Messaging is coming 0:21:57.920 --> 0:22:01.280 to me all the time, your disputed territory. Yeah, and 0:22:01.520 --> 0:22:02.960 you know, I felt as though I had to be 0:22:03.040 --> 0:22:06.400