1 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. 2 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and 3 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 2: waters that this podcast is recorded. 4 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:26,440 Speaker 3: On Hello, bestie, there are you. Don't ghost me on Snapchat. 5 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 3: I can see that you are on Snapchat. I can 6 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 3: see you on the map. 7 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:37,559 Speaker 1: For Mamma Mia. I'm your host, Ashani Dante. Welcome to 8 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: But Are You Happy? The show for people who say 9 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:43,480 Speaker 1: no worries far clearly deeply worried. 10 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 2: And I'm doctor Anastaga Heronis, a clinical psychologist passionate about 11 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 2: happiness and mental health. Have you ever wondered why friendship 12 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 2: breakups feel so brutal? 13 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've definitely had my fair share of friendship breakups 14 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: and breakdowns? Why does it feel worse than breaking up 15 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: with a romantic partner? 16 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:04,679 Speaker 2: That's what we're going to talk about today. How to 17 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 2: end a friendship without ghosting someone and leaving them wondering 18 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 2: what just happened? 19 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: Get into it, okay, Anathasia. I want to start off 20 00:01:16,559 --> 00:01:18,959 Speaker 1: with the big scary question that so many of us 21 00:01:19,039 --> 00:01:21,479 Speaker 1: are thinking but are too scared to actually talk about 22 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: out loud. How do we know when it's time to 23 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 1: end a friendship? Can you give us some of the 24 00:01:26,759 --> 00:01:27,759 Speaker 1: signs to look out for. 25 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:30,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, friendship is a big one that I think doesn't 26 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 2: get talked about enough. So I'm so glad we're having 27 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 2: this conversation. So, yeah, let's talk about signs of unhealthy friendships. Right, 28 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 2: when we think about a friendship, we want it to 29 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 2: be happy, fun, respectful, emotional. We want to feel like 30 00:01:45,839 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 2: we have a strong sense of connection with someone. So 31 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 2: I guess when we're looking for signs of an unhealthy friendship, 32 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 2: we might be looking at signs of, you know, someone 33 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 2: who's not kind of reciprocating the friendship. Right, Friendship's got 34 00:01:57,440 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 2: to be two ways, not just a one way straight 35 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 2: so we need that reciprocity. We need to feel like 36 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 2: we can trust that person. If our friend is not 37 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 2: someone we feel like we can trust, then are they 38 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 2: really our friend. We don't want to have any ox 39 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 2: ssessive signs of jealousy any one person trying to control 40 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 2: the dynamic. It's got to really be kind of fair 41 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 2: and respectful to both people. 42 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 1: And I can imagine with these signs as well, like, 43 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 1: would you be looking at for these signs consistently? Because 44 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:26,800 Speaker 1: I understand, you know, at the end of the day. 45 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: We're all human and sometimes we're going through a bad day. 46 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: We can project our stuff onto someone else, Like, can 47 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 1: you tell me a little bit more about that? Is 48 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: it a consistent thing that we're looking out for. 49 00:02:36,640 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 2: I think you've hit the nail on the head there 50 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 2: with the idea of patterns, right, Like, it's never going 51 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 2: to be one hundred percents equal all of the time, 52 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 2: Right There's going to be times where one person has 53 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 2: less capacity than the other. One friend steps up and 54 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 2: fills the space while the other person is maybe like 55 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 2: a little bit down or unable to kind of contribute 56 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 2: as much. That's fine as long as we don't find 57 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 2: ourselves in a pattern where one person is always unavailable 58 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 2: or always wants things to be exactly on their terms, 59 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 2: or we always have to go to the sushi place 60 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 2: that the friend wants to go to instead of it 61 00:03:08,920 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 2: kind of being a fair share of who get to 62 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 2: pick where we go for dinner. 63 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. And it's really interesting because as you're unpacking some 64 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 1: of these signs, something else that I think about could 65 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 1: be another potential sign would be a misalignment in values, right, Like, 66 00:03:22,640 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: I know, for me, I've had to step away from 67 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 1: friendships where I've been deeply hurt and that friend knew 68 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 1: the impact that they had on me, but didn't make 69 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: the effort to repair. And that was a misalignment in 70 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: values for me because love and respect's really important, but 71 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: in that particular situation, they weren't demonstrating that and that 72 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: was really hard. But I did have to question the friendship. 73 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's such a good point, the values misalignment, right, 74 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 2: And I think values is a big one. We've talked 75 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 2: about values before on the podcast. But you know, we 76 00:03:56,760 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 2: can have different values where like I value adventure and 77 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 2: New value creativity, so we might have kind of different 78 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 2: interest in hobbies, right, But when it comes down to 79 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 2: those really core values around respect and honesty and forgiveness 80 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 2: and repair, you know, if we differ on some of 81 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 2: those really core values with our friends, then we might 82 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:20,039 Speaker 2: find it hard to maintain a friendship with them. As 83 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 2: you've said, so, what are some of. 84 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 1: The common red flags to look out for when it 85 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:26,599 Speaker 1: comes to an unhealthy relationship? 86 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 2: So I would say signs of an unhealthy friendship are 87 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 2: things like when someone's disrespecting your boundaries and doing so constantly. 88 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,160 Speaker 2: Maybe they're not willing to sort of respect, your emotional 89 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 2: limits or limits on your time and your availability. Maybe 90 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 2: if someone's constantly negative, right, really being negative and pulling 91 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 2: the friendship down, a lot of criticisms. They're very critical 92 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 2: of you and harsh towards you. They don't give the 93 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 2: support when you feel like you need it. There's a 94 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 2: lot of conflict in the friendship, maybe some betrayal, maybe gossip, jealousy, dishonesty, 95 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 2: and then of course the imbalance of effort. If you 96 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 2: feel like you're the person who is always putting in 97 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 2: the effort and it's not a two way street, that's 98 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 2: probably a sign that there's something unhealthy going on in 99 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 2: the friendship. 100 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: Why do ending a friendship feel just as hard as 101 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 1: a romantic breakup? 102 00:05:13,840 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 2: Often we've had these friends through the ups and downs 103 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:21,159 Speaker 2: of our lives. Right, We've gone through romantic breakups and 104 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 2: they've been the person there who shoulder we cry on. 105 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 2: Or we've gone through illness or death of a parent, 106 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 2: or a change in career or trying to figure out 107 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 2: our identity. You know, these different kind of life stages 108 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:36,280 Speaker 2: we go through. Those friends are there with us and 109 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 2: they've seen the changes in who we are, how we 110 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 2: show up in the world, our personality, our interests, our choices. 111 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 2: They've been there through the highs, they've been there through 112 00:05:45,840 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 2: the lows, and so it's you lose a lot when 113 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 2: you lose a friend, because it's sad to grieve the 114 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:54,840 Speaker 2: history that that friendship comes with. 115 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: I feel like you just worded it so beautifully because 116 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,159 Speaker 1: I feel like what I'm hearing is there was a 117 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:03,840 Speaker 1: lot of emotional intimacy. You know, they've been there through 118 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 1: the ups and the downs, and it is kind of 119 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: that breaking away of the possibility of the memories and 120 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 1: the joy love that you experience. It's breaking away from 121 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:16,719 Speaker 1: that as well, and that's scary. We don't like change, right. 122 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 2: We don't like change, and when there's a lot of 123 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 2: history behind us with friends, we do feel a desire 124 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 2: to hold on to that. Whether it's the right or 125 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,359 Speaker 2: wrong thing for us, there is a desire to hold 126 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 2: on to that history. I know for me, a lot 127 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 2: of my friends have been from my schooling years right 128 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 2: and we've been with each other through those life transitions 129 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 2: of going to UNI and figuring out what to do 130 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:41,599 Speaker 2: in the world and in our careers, and some of 131 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 2: us have got married and had babies and done all 132 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 2: sorts of things, and you live life with that person 133 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 2: by your side in some way, and so it's a 134 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 2: big part of our life friends. 135 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,480 Speaker 1: But I guess the other question I have is what 136 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 1: if it's not a breakup at all, and actually it's 137 00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 1: a re establishment of boundaries, like redefining the friendship. 138 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 2: I think this is a good point because people can 139 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 2: sometimes be quick to jump to cutting the friendship, off 140 00:07:08,280 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 2: ending the friendship, right like, oh, we have this misalignment 141 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 2: of values, or you know, this person's not putting in 142 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 2: as much effort as I am, and so this isn't 143 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 2: the right friendship for me anymore, and I'm going to 144 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 2: end it. Well, maybe we don't need to end it, 145 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 2: but as you say, it's just this kind of redefining 146 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 2: what the friendship looks like. We all have friends that 147 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 2: I want to say, serve different purposes in our lives. Right, 148 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 2: no one person is going to be well maybe they are, 149 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 2: but no one person should feel the pressure to be 150 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 2: the ultimate friend and ultimate person. I guess what I 151 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 2: mean by that is that we have some friends that 152 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 2: might be the fun friends. They are the people we 153 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 2: go out with on the weekend, we have a nice 154 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 2: time with them, We enjoy ourselves with them, but they're 155 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 2: maybe not the person we call up when we've just 156 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 2: had heartbreak in our lives and we want to cry 157 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 2: on the phone to them. We might have friends who 158 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 2: share similar interests and hobbies to us, you know, the 159 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 2: friends that we go hiking with, or the friends that 160 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 2: are in the run club or something. We might have 161 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 2: friends who are the work friends, right, we share common 162 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 2: space day to day, we share commonality because we work 163 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 2: together and we bond over that, but perhaps we don't 164 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 2: necessarily take that outside of work. And then we have 165 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 2: the friends who are the emotionally close friends, the people 166 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 2: we feel very emotionally intimate with, and they serve a 167 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 2: particular role and function in our lives. So it's important 168 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 2: to kind of think about where different people fit in 169 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 2: our lives and making sure for ourselves that we see 170 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 2: them in that role and we're not kind of expecting 171 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 2: them to necessarily be more than that. Different people serve 172 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 2: different purposes in terms of friendships for us. 173 00:08:42,079 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: I really like that because I think so often, you know, 174 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:48,079 Speaker 1: there's that concept when we were growing up in high 175 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: school where there's the whole concept of fiffles. You know, 176 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: we had those like best friends for life, and we 177 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: had the best friend bracelets and you had the best 178 00:08:56,440 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 1: friend necklaces. And in a way, I feel like it 179 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 1: was this false narrative where it was like, oh, I 180 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: need to do everything, share everything with my best friend, 181 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: and I feel like there is some version of adult 182 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: team when we realize, actually, you know, that person's for 183 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 1: this purpose and this person's for that purpose. Like it's 184 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 1: not a bad thing to sometimes compartmentalize, right. 185 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 2: Maybe the best friend sounds like a lot of pressure 186 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 2: right now, I have at it right, like you're the 187 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 2: best friends, like you support that person and everything in 188 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 2: their life, and that feels like a lot of pressure 189 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 2: as opposed to like, you know, I feel this part 190 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 2: of this person's life, but maybe I don't do all 191 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 2: things with them. 192 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so true. And I feel like I've come 193 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 1: from a different lens because I used to work with 194 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: my best friends as well, and that was a really 195 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 1: interesting dynamic to move through and knowing Okay, what's personal 196 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 1: what's professional, and it was really challenging as well. I 197 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 1: think also coming back to what you were talking about 198 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 1: around setting new boundaries, I think that that could be 199 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 1: hard but also really necessary because I know for me, 200 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: I've definitely had situations where I did set a boundary 201 00:10:00,560 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: with certain friends in my life because I had a 202 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 1: lot going on emotionally and I couldn't hold the conversation 203 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: about that relationship in that time. So I did set 204 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 1: a bit of a boundary, like, hey, I'm just taking 205 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 1: a bit of a break, and they respected it as well. 206 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: But that was a moment for me to not just 207 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: always say yes because I'm such a yes person. And 208 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: you know, we've definitely talked about people pleasing in season one. 209 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 1: We'll head back to those episodes. So it was a 210 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 1: moment for me to step into my power and own 211 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: what was going to be in alignment with my own 212 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: values in that moment. 213 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, and the idea that it doesn't have to be 214 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 2: a breakup, it can be a break Yeah. 215 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:43,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk about guilt because kind of extending on 216 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 1: people pleasing and how you know, these people have been 217 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 1: such core parts of our lives. So often we can 218 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: feel like the bad person or the villain when it's 219 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 1: time for us to step away from a friendship. Why 220 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: is it so hard for us to change a dynamic 221 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: with a friend. 222 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 2: It's hard because you know, if we feel guilt, and 223 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:06,199 Speaker 2: if we feel bad about it, we probably still care 224 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:10,079 Speaker 2: for this person and still value the relationship that we've had. 225 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,439 Speaker 2: The right just because the friendship or the relationship right 226 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 2: now doesn't feel good or it feels like we need 227 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 2: a break from it or we want to step away 228 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 2: from it completely, doesn't mean it hasn't been great in 229 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 2: the past. 230 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:22,079 Speaker 4: Right. 231 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 2: Just like any relationship, even romantic relationships, they might reach 232 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 2: a point where they're no longer healthy for us, but 233 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 2: there may certainly be times in the past where there 234 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 2: have been wonderful experiences with great shared memories and great 235 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 2: emotional intimacy, and that can feel really sad and hard 236 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,319 Speaker 2: to step away from, even if it's the best thing 237 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 2: for us. 238 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 1: It's really interesting because as we're talking more about this conversation, 239 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 1: it gets me thinking about mel Robin's book The Lethem Theory. 240 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: I have read it, and there's something that she talks 241 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 1: about around this concept of the great scattering and how 242 00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: it's about how friends naturally can change in different transitions 243 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 1: in life, and how it is such a normal part 244 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:05,439 Speaker 1: of life where you know, you go from you move 245 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 1: into state, your friends naturally change. And I remember when 246 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 1: I read that for the first time, I had this 247 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:14,680 Speaker 1: moment of relief because I kept thinking there was something 248 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 1: wrong with me, being like, oh, I should keep these 249 00:12:18,560 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: people in my life because you spoke to how you've 250 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 1: been friends with people from school, Like, I actually don't 251 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 1: have any friends from school that I'm still connected with, 252 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 1: and there's no bad blood there, Like, I think they're 253 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 1: all really beautiful people, but I think it was a 254 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 1: natural flow of life and noticing when I moved into 255 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 1: State that just changed. And it's just nice to know 256 00:12:39,560 --> 00:12:40,319 Speaker 1: that it's okay. 257 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 2: It's the permission piece, right, giving ourselves permission to change 258 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 2: as people, and that means our relationships will naturally change, 259 00:12:48,560 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 2: and that doesn't have to be a bad thing. It's 260 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 2: not that we're no longer friends with this person because 261 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 2: they've done something that's so hurtful to us that we 262 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 2: can't possibly forgive them. It's just that life changes and 263 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 2: priorities change, and I think there's actually something so beautiful 264 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 2: about a friendship when you can have that time that's 265 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 2: passed where maybe you haven't spoken to each other or 266 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:10,680 Speaker 2: seen one another, but you can kind of call that 267 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 2: for what it is and be like, hey, I've got 268 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 2: a great friend from school that I don't see very often, 269 00:13:16,560 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 2: but when we do connect, it's like, Hey, we haven't 270 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 2: spoken for almost a year, but I love you as 271 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 2: a friend. You're a wonderful person. Like, let's make some 272 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 2: time to reconnect in some way, whether it's a phone 273 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 2: call or in person catch up. And I think there's 274 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 2: something so lovely about being able to own the space 275 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 2: and the distance. But that doesn't necessarily mean that I 276 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 2: care about you any less or I value you any less. 277 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:40,079 Speaker 2: It's just that life has happened. 278 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: So true, And I think it's one of those things 279 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 1: where at the end of the day, we can't control 280 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: other people's reactions, and especially with a best friend or 281 00:13:48,680 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: a friend that you've done a lot of life with, 282 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: you know how they're going to respond usually, so I 283 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 1: can imagine that hesitation of even wanting to lean into 284 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 1: the conversation because you're already playing out all the potential 285 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 1: scenarios like, oh, they're going to think this, they're going 286 00:14:01,560 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 1: to think this, they're going to share it with all 287 00:14:03,560 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 1: of our collective friends, and you just create all these 288 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: you know, you end up spiraling before even having the conversation. Yes, 289 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:13,560 Speaker 1: but absolutely yeah, And I think what I'm hearing is 290 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 1: that it's okay to feel those things and you know, 291 00:14:17,680 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 1: take that next step. 292 00:14:18,560 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 2: Whatever. That is absolutely so some. 293 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: Of you I do want to talk about because it 294 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: kind of ties back to the title of this whole 295 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 1: episode around how to end friendships without ghosting. I can 296 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: imagine it's potentially not a clinical term, so we'd we'd 297 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 1: love to hear what is ghosting? Is it all that bad? 298 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 2: Yes, ghosting? Well, you're right, it's not a clinical term. 299 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 2: I looked up online to try and find the official 300 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 2: definition of ghosting, if there is one, so I'll say, 301 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 2: according to the Oxford Learner's Dictionary, okay, we're gone there, 302 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 2: ghosting is the practice of ending a personal relationship with 303 00:14:55,000 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 2: someone by suddenly stopping all communication without explanation. So I 304 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 2: think the key parts about this is it's sudden, right, 305 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 2: it feels like it comes out of the blue. It's 306 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 2: not expected, it's sudden, and it it happens without any explanation. 307 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 2: So the person on the other end is left feeling 308 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 2: often very confused and potentially overwhelmed by what's happened. 309 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 1: So with ghosting, is it all that bad? 310 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 2: That's a good question. Look, if it is someone that 311 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 2: you have a close personal relationship with, if you have 312 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 2: a friendship with them, if you're dating them, et cetera. 313 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 2: My advice would be not to ghost. Yeah, I think 314 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 2: out of kind of respect for how we would like 315 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 2: to be treated, Let's treat others that way. And if 316 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 2: we would be in a situation where we would find 317 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 2: it really unpleasant or uncomfortable or a bit disheartening to 318 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 2: be ghosted by someone, then let's not inflict that same 319 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 2: sort of behavior or treatment on someone else. That's very 320 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 2: different to friendships or relationships that kind of naturally drift, right, 321 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 2: the sort of natural drift where things just you know, 322 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 2: neither person is kind of putting the effort in and 323 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 2: so they sort of drift apart. But that's different because 324 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 2: it's not sudden, and one person is not left on 325 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 2: the other end going what on earth has happened? Because 326 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 2: that's a really unsettling feeling. 327 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: Something I am curious about when it comes to ghosting 328 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: is could it be also a capacity thing? I know 329 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: I spoke before about an example of me not having 330 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 1: the capacity to have a conversation. What happens if you 331 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 1: don't have the capacity to lean into that conversation and 332 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: slash or the person on the receiving end can't it 333 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 1: doesn't have the capacity to receive it. So what do 334 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 1: you do on that end? Because if there isn't a space, 335 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: a mutual space of being open and willing to lean 336 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: into the conversation, is there a point to actually even 337 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 1: have a conversation. 338 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, I say own it. If capacity is the issue, 339 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 2: If you don't feel like in this moment you can 340 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 2: show up and have the conversation, or you don't feel 341 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 2: like you can explain to someone you know why it 342 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:04,959 Speaker 2: is you want to step away from the friendship or 343 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 2: the relationship, then I say own the capacity, because that 344 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 2: at least gives the person some understanding as to what's happening. 345 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:13,759 Speaker 2: There's nothing wrong with being able to say to someone 346 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:18,119 Speaker 2: like I'm not able to continue in this friendship or 347 00:17:18,120 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 2: this relationship at this point in time. 348 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 3: Right. 349 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 2: That doesn't have to mean forever, It just means right now, 350 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 2: I'm just feeling like I don't have the capacity to 351 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:27,920 Speaker 2: be able to kind of talk through this right now. 352 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 2: But perhaps later we can come back to it. I 353 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 2: hope you can understand, right just being transparent, honest, I 354 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 2: think people really value or I really value when people 355 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 2: are honest and transparent about how they're feeling and they 356 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 2: share the hard stuff. 357 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:41,880 Speaker 1: Right. 358 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:43,680 Speaker 2: It's not easy to do. It's not easy for any 359 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 2: of us to do, but we can have respect for 360 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 2: someone that. 361 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,120 Speaker 1: Does it, and I can also hear in that it's 362 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: also a really good character buility moment. Right when we're 363 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 1: leaning into a bit of you know, we're stepping out 364 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: of our comfort zone, we're leaning into the eakiness of 365 00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 1: how this is going to end up. And it is 366 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 1: a good life skill to learn. Whether it's friendships, whether 367 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:05,919 Speaker 1: it's you know, conflict in the workplace, it's inevitable. So 368 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 1: I really like that you're a pro clear community. 369 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 2: Clear communication. Absolutely, And you know what, if we don't 370 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 2: communicate clearly and the other person on the other end 371 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 2: is feeling confused and doesn't know what's happening, often people 372 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:27,160 Speaker 2: will resort to blaming themselves, and that's what we don't want. 373 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 2: If we get ghosted, often we'll sit there, we'll ruminate 374 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 2: over what's happened. We'll go over the scenarios. We'll overthink 375 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 2: did I say something, did I do something? Was at 376 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:36,399 Speaker 2: that time I called them on the phone and they 377 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 2: were really busy but I kept talking anyway, you know, 378 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 2: we'll try and pinpoint the thing that we did that 379 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 2: made someone ghost us, and we want to avoid someone 380 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 2: going through that process if it really isn't a them thing. 381 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 1: So if you're the one that's been ghosted, what should 382 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:50,719 Speaker 1: you do? 383 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 2: I think you can go multiple ways here, right, Like, 384 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 2: I think there are some people who would be on 385 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:57,919 Speaker 2: the receiving end of being ghosted in a friendship and 386 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:00,160 Speaker 2: feel really hurt by that, but not want to take 387 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 2: the step forward to try and open up communication. And 388 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,159 Speaker 2: I respect that, right, It's not for everyone, and it 389 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 2: can sometimes feel more hurtful to try and like reach 390 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 2: out to that person and not potentially get a response. 391 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,399 Speaker 2: The other option is to maybe send a message, you know, 392 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:19,679 Speaker 2: a text, whatever it might be that just sort of 393 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,640 Speaker 2: recognizes what's happened. So, you know, Hey, I haven't heard 394 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 2: from you in a while. I've tried to contact you, 395 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 2: I haven't heard back from you. I do hope things 396 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 2: are okay. Let me know when you're ready to chat. 397 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 2: You know, I often think about what's the decision for 398 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:38,719 Speaker 2: me personally that I'm going to feel best with at 399 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 2: the end of the day, because the end of the 400 00:19:40,120 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 2: day I have to live with myself and my decisions 401 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 2: and my choices, and what I might decide to do 402 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 2: might be different to what someone else does. But if 403 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:48,159 Speaker 2: you can get to the end of the day and 404 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 2: go okay, you know what, Like I'm satisfied and I'm 405 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:53,679 Speaker 2: glad I made that decision, even if they choose not 406 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 2: to respond, then I feel like I've done okay. 407 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:01,920 Speaker 1: After the shopbreak, doctor an Atasia is going to teach 408 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 1: us how to navigate the tough conversation when you think 409 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 1: you need to end a friendship. Stay with us. Okay, Anastasia, 410 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: We've now covered a lot of the signs to look 411 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,399 Speaker 1: out for when you're considering having a friendship breakup. But 412 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,160 Speaker 1: how how do we have the breakup conversation? Can you 413 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:23,119 Speaker 1: give us a bit of a roadmap around how to 414 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:25,120 Speaker 1: navigate this with love and respect? 415 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 2: Yes? Absolutely, this is a framework. I'm going to call 416 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 2: it the care framework, a nice acronym. 417 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:33,680 Speaker 1: That's great, we love a good acronym. 418 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 2: The care framework for a friend breakup. But I want 419 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 2: to also say this, you can use this framework for 420 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 2: redefining readjusting boundaries, you know, kind of talking to someone 421 00:20:45,120 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 2: about how you might like some tweaks in the friendship right, 422 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 2: So it doesn't just have to be for the breakup. 423 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:51,679 Speaker 2: It can be for how to have a conversation with 424 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 2: a friend that might be hard. Right, So let's go 425 00:20:55,680 --> 00:21:00,639 Speaker 2: through it. C are So C stands for choose the 426 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 2: right time and place. So before we get into what 427 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 2: we're going to say, let's get the setting right. Are 428 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 2: you guys going to have a FaceTime call. Are you 429 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 2: going to have a chat over the phone, You're going 430 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:13,159 Speaker 2: to sit at a cafe, You're going to sit in 431 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 2: a park in a quiet spot, You're going to go 432 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 2: to someone's place. Right, what does the setting actually look like. 433 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 2: I'm not saying there's a right or wrong answer here, 434 00:21:20,120 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 2: but think carefully about having the setting right, because if 435 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 2: the setting is wrong, if you're in like a really noisy, 436 00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 2: busy cafe and you're trying to tell someone, look, I 437 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,679 Speaker 2: think we need to redefine our friendship. It's not going 438 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:36,679 Speaker 2: to be, you know, the easiest place to have a 439 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 2: potentially hard conversation, right. So that's the sea choosing the 440 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 2: right time and place. Next one is a acknowledge the 441 00:21:46,120 --> 00:21:49,119 Speaker 2: friendship and your feelings. This is the part I really like, 442 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:53,360 Speaker 2: particularly when the redefining of the friendship or the breakup 443 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,160 Speaker 2: can be very bittersweet, right when you have a lot 444 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:58,439 Speaker 2: of care for that person but the friendship is just 445 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:03,120 Speaker 2: no longer working for you. Acknowledge the friendship, Acknowledge the history, 446 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,680 Speaker 2: Acknowledge the good qualities of that person. Acknowledge what you've 447 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 2: really valued about the friendship. Right, so we want to 448 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 2: really lean into acknowledging those things and acknowledge how you feel. 449 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 2: Acknowledge that this might be a really hard conversation for 450 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 2: you to have. Acknowledge that you might be feeling a 451 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 2: bit of guilt. Acknowledge that you might be feeling a 452 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 2: bit sad. Acknowledge that you might also be feeling a 453 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 2: bit relieved to have this conversation. Right. So, the A 454 00:22:29,120 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 2: is all about acknowledging the friendship and acknowledging our feelings. 455 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:34,640 Speaker 1: And I really love that because in a way, you're 456 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 1: framing up the vulnerability piece, which is what fosters more 457 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:42,360 Speaker 1: of that connection and that safety exactly exactly. 458 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:47,680 Speaker 2: You're modeling that openness and that transparency and the vulnerability. Okay, 459 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 2: so choose the right time and place. Acknowledge the friendship 460 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 2: R is about relaying your reasons okay, So you want 461 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 2: to share your reasons with the person as to why 462 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 2: you'd like the friendship to change, or why you'd like 463 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 2: to take a break from the friendship. Whatever those reasons 464 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,120 Speaker 2: might be, try and reflect them and state them using 465 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 2: eye statements. So I've noticed this or I'm feeling this, right, 466 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 2: So providing the person with your reasons and then e 467 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 2: is ending with empathy. Now, some people might say, if 468 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:20,679 Speaker 2: the friendship has been a really horrible one and I 469 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 2: don't want to end with empathy, I don't have to. 470 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 2: That's okay. But again, if it's that bittersweet ending, or 471 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 2: you do want to have the friendship with them, but 472 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 2: you want to sort of change the dynamic, provide the empathy, 473 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,359 Speaker 2: lean into the difficult emotions, you know, talk about how 474 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 2: this might be hard for that person to hear, or 475 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 2: it might be upsetting, or it might be unwanted. So 476 00:23:42,120 --> 00:23:46,439 Speaker 2: end with empathy. What I love about this framework is 477 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:50,400 Speaker 2: that it leans into emotion and as you said, vulnerability, right, 478 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 2: and that can be a really honest and kind way 479 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 2: to have hard conversations with someone. 480 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,959 Speaker 1: I really love this framework. It's so good. One other 481 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 1: question I do have, because you have mentioned how it 482 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,640 Speaker 1: can be really scary to lean into these conversations. And 483 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 1: now we've got this framing of the care framework, would 484 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 1: you be able to step out a potential script because 485 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 1: I know you did this last season, particularly with the 486 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: Dear method back in what was that episode six? I 487 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,199 Speaker 1: think it was episode six. Go check it out. But 488 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 1: I just feel like it's really helpful to have that. 489 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 2: Yes, Okay, all right, So let's use an example. Let's 490 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 2: say that I need to have a break from my 491 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 2: friends Lucy. 492 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,120 Speaker 1: You can pretend I'm Lucy too. You can pretend you end. 493 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 2: I don't have a friend called Lucy. So if there's 494 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:42,200 Speaker 2: any way Lucy's listen out there, this is. 495 00:24:42,120 --> 00:24:45,159 Speaker 1: Not about you, Okay. 496 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 2: So if I need to have a break from Lucy, right, 497 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 2: I'm gonna look at you and deliver it to you 498 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 2: as shanis if you're Lucy. So let's say I've asked you, Lucy, 499 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 2: to come meet me, know, just at a kind of 500 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:00,679 Speaker 2: like we'll grab a cup of coffee and sit in 501 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 2: a park somewhere where it's a bit quiet, right, Okay, 502 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 2: So I've chosen the time and the place. Lucy's agreed 503 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:10,959 Speaker 2: to that. So I'm gonna say Lucy. We've been friends 504 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,120 Speaker 2: for so long, literally for years and years. We've had 505 00:25:14,120 --> 00:25:16,199 Speaker 2: some good memories together. I remember the time we went 506 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,119 Speaker 2: on that Europe trip together and we had lots of fun, 507 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,679 Speaker 2: and we've shared highs and lows in life, and I 508 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 2: think you're a really wonderful person with so many great qualities. 509 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,920 Speaker 2: So that's my acknowledgment of friendship. Now I'm going to 510 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 2: acknowledge feelings. I'm noticing that lately I've been feeling like 511 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,679 Speaker 2: our friendship just isn't what it used to be. Our 512 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 2: friendship just doesn't have the same connection, the same intimacy, 513 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 2: the same reciprocity as what it used to Okay, so 514 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 2: that's me acknowledging my feelings now that are relay my 515 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 2: reasons for wanting to redefine the friendship. What I'm thinking 516 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 2: is that it's worth us having a conversation about perhaps 517 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,440 Speaker 2: how we view each other in this friendship going forward, 518 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,439 Speaker 2: and perhaps if we need to change our expectations for 519 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 2: one another, because I know we've previously been really close 520 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 2: and the way that life has changed, that's just not 521 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 2: so possible anymore. E And with empathy, I care about you, 522 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 2: I value you. I know that you're busy. I know 523 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 2: that life gets hard, So I want us to kind 524 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 2: of figure out what we mean to each other as 525 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 2: friends going forward, and if maybe we can give each 526 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 2: other permission to not have to force this friendship if 527 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 2: it doesn't feel like it's going in that direction. 528 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 1: It's beautifully articulated. 529 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 2: How did that feel to be on the receiver end of. 530 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 1: Well, it's really the way you delivered it was with respect, 531 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 1: and I could feel it was coming from a really 532 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 1: genuine place. So there's a I mean, I'm speaking, I'm 533 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: seeing from my perspective, you know, and it might be 534 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 1: different for other people, But I did feel there was 535 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: this mutual love and respect and also respect in the 536 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 1: sense of because there's a lot of courage to lean 537 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,360 Speaker 1: into the conversation because it takes one person to lead it, 538 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 1: and there's a bit like there's respect there for you 539 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 1: to want to even have the conversation. Yeah, So does 540 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: that mean in that way with this framework, because I 541 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 1: know when you were talking about it, it's like a 542 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 1: monologue in a way. Would you want people to kind 543 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 1: of not stay too stiff with the framework and allow 544 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 1: that to be a bit of back and forth because 545 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 1: I can imagine, when you're talking about acknowledging feelings, you 546 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:35,879 Speaker 1: might want to naturally create space for them to also 547 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 1: acknowledge and share feelings. I know that's really specific, but 548 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,200 Speaker 1: sometimes I think these conversations do need to be really 549 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 1: structured because we don't have the roadmap. You're giving us 550 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:46,400 Speaker 1: the roadmap, Yeah. 551 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 2: I would say, with that care framework, and really it's 552 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 2: the AAR that sort of tell you what to say. 553 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,120 Speaker 2: I would say, deliver that all at once. Don't get 554 00:27:55,120 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 2: too into it, right, We don't have to kind of 555 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,040 Speaker 2: create this big long script. It can be literally kind 556 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 2: of four sentences, five sentences. I think if you can 557 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 2: communicate your whole message to someone so that they can 558 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 2: respond to everything you've said, that canst clear communication. But 559 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 2: if we only get like one or two sentences in 560 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,200 Speaker 2: and then open up for someone to respond, we can 561 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 2: easily kind of drift away from our endpoint. So communicate 562 00:28:19,120 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 2: your whole message and then like invite that person to respond. 563 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,399 Speaker 1: Okay, so you've now had the conversation, you hug, you 564 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:30,200 Speaker 1: walk away. What now, because I can imagine there's a 565 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 1: possibility of running into each other in similar circles, Right. 566 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 2: What do we do after the friend break or the 567 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 2: friend breakup is a very good question. I think sometimes 568 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 2: we don't quite give it enough consideration, but it's very important. 569 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 2: So there's two parts to this. What do we do 570 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 2: when we perhaps see that person in the world, But 571 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 2: then what do we also do for ourselves? Because we're sad, 572 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 2: right and it's hard. So I would say for yourself, 573 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 2: have a plan as to how you're going to manage 574 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 2: social interactions where you may see that person. Now, it 575 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 2: could be that you just bump into them at a 576 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 2: social event, or it could be that you know you're 577 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 2: going to see them again because you have this same 578 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 2: shared circle of friends. Have a plan for how you're 579 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 2: going to interact with them. Maybe that's just a smile 580 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 2: and nod and a hello, but you're not really going 581 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 2: to get into in depth conversations with that person. Maybe 582 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 2: you're happy to continue being friends with that person on 583 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 2: social media, but you don't necessarily want to catch up 584 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 2: with them for coffee in real life. Right, have a 585 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 2: plan for what the aftermath of the friend break with 586 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 2: a friend breakup looks like. And the reason I suggest 587 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 2: that is because it can be really hard and overwhelming 588 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 2: when you walk into that social setting. Without a plan 589 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 2: of what to do right to be anxiety provoking. It's 590 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 2: a little bit scary. But if you have a mental plan, 591 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 2: it's going to help you feel more calm and comfortable 592 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 2: to approach those situations. 593 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 1: I can definitely relate to that when I did not 594 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 1: have a plan for my half to care. So, how 595 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 1: do we look after ourselves because we are clearly walking 596 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: away very sad. 597 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 2: It's grief, right, A friendship breakdown or break is a 598 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 2: form of us losing something. Even if we choose it right, 599 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 2: it's still a loss. It's still grief. So we want 600 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 2: to look after ourselves in the same way that we 601 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 2: would look after ourselves if we have a romantic breakup 602 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 2: or if we experience loss of other sorts. Right, it 603 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 2: means taking the time to be compassionate with ourselves, to 604 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 2: look after ourselves, to do the self soothing things. Have 605 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 2: the bubble bath, have the cry, reach out to other friends, 606 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 2: lean on them for support, do the things that you 607 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 2: need to do to look after yourself emotionally in those moments. 608 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 1: I feel like this has been so juicy, and I 609 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 1: feel like so many people are going to be bookmarking 610 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 1: writing down the care framework after this show break, You're 611 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 1: going to hear from a woman who ended a friendship, 612 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: but things are getting awkward because they're still part of 613 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 1: the same friend group. 614 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 2: Bibby hearb Berby. I'm having a serious Christy the BRB 615 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 2: having a crisis. 616 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 1: We've reached the time in our episode where we answer 617 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 1: a question or dilemma from one of you. Anaesthetia. Our 618 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 1: first dilemma before the season is from Mikayla. 619 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 4: I recently ended a friendship and it basically felt like 620 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 4: a breakup because I just didn't feel like it was 621 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 4: adding anything positive to my life anymore. The hard part 622 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 4: is we're still in the same friendship group, so I 623 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 4: still have to see her at group hangouts, birthdays. 624 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 1: All that. 625 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 2: It's awkward, and we haven't really spoken since. 626 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 4: I've also heard she's been saying some not so great 627 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 4: things about me to other people in the group. There's 628 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 4: a group dinner coming up that I really want to 629 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 4: go to, which has already said she's going. Now I'm 630 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:42,719 Speaker 4: not sure if I should still go. I don't want drama, 631 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 4: but I also don't want to miss out just because 632 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 4: she'll be there. How do I handle situations like this? 633 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: Oh, that's hard, very relatable. 634 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 2: It is hard, And look, there's a few things to this. 635 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 2: First of all, I don't love to hear that this 636 00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:00,120 Speaker 2: friend has been ex friend has been saying unkind things 637 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,960 Speaker 2: about our listener. So I mean, the first thing I'd 638 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 2: throw out there is consider whether or not it feels 639 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:08,840 Speaker 2: right for you to actually bring this up with her, 640 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 2: like is it worth a conversation and to say, hey, 641 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 2: I've heard these things going around? Is this true? Can 642 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 2: you please not say these things about me? 643 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: Right? 644 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 2: That will very person to person as to whether people 645 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 2: want to do that or not. But second to that, 646 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 2: whether or not to go to this social catch up. 647 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 2: Sometimes when people can't figure out what to do, I 648 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 2: suggest that they use the concept of regret to figure 649 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 2: out what decision to make. Which decision will you regret 650 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 2: the least? Will you regret not going to the party, 651 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 2: or will you regret going? You know which one? Are 652 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 2: you going to regret least? I would encourage our listener 653 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 2: to go. Why should you have to miss out on 654 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 2: a social gathering just because you've had this friendship breakdown? 655 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 2: If your other friends going to go, she's going to go, 656 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 2: why do you have to miss out? Right? Yes, it's 657 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 2: going to be a bit awkward. Yes, it's going to 658 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 2: be a bit uncomfortable, but you know what, You'll be 659 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 2: able to rip that band aid off and it will 660 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 2: set the tone and the scene for future social gatherings 661 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 2: where you're able to see one another. You can maybe nod, 662 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 2: say hello, smile. You don't have to sit right next 663 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 2: to each other. You can sit at opposite ends of 664 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 2: the table if you have to, But it sets the 665 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 2: scene for being able to be in the same space 666 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 2: as one another without being really close friends. Now, if 667 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 2: you're worried about drama, I would say this, you can't 668 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 2: change or control what other people are going to do, 669 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 2: but you can make a commitment to yourself to show 670 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:44,360 Speaker 2: up to this social event. Hold true within yourself, be 671 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 2: strong within yourself, and not get pulled into drama. Still 672 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,240 Speaker 2: be respectful of other people, respectful of yourself, respectful of 673 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 2: the situation. You don't need to get pulled into drama, 674 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 2: even if other people are creating it. 675 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 1: Can we also go back to this shit talking part, like, 676 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 1: how do you even approach that conversation? If you were 677 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 1: going to do that. 678 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:10,240 Speaker 2: With some bravery? That's my shop. But I think really again, 679 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 2: like I come back to sort of this care framework 680 00:34:13,759 --> 00:34:16,279 Speaker 2: that's all about the vulnerability. As we said, right, it's 681 00:34:16,319 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 2: approaching that person. It might be a text, it might 682 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,200 Speaker 2: be a phone call, whatever feels right for you, but 683 00:34:21,319 --> 00:34:25,360 Speaker 2: really sort of acknowledging. Look, i've heard that you've said 684 00:34:25,399 --> 00:34:28,159 Speaker 2: these things about me. We don't know if it's true 685 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:29,799 Speaker 2: or not, right, so I don't want to come across 686 00:34:29,839 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 2: as accusatree, but I've heard that you've been seeing these 687 00:34:32,279 --> 00:34:36,360 Speaker 2: things about me. If this is true, can you please stop? 688 00:34:36,479 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 2: I really don't appreciate being talked about in this way. 689 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,439 Speaker 2: I would rather our personal friendship and business stay out 690 00:34:42,479 --> 00:34:44,559 Speaker 2: of other people's lives and just stay between us. So 691 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 2: if there is something you feel like you need to 692 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 2: bring up with me, please send me a text, call me, 693 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:51,519 Speaker 2: let's discuss it. But we don't need to talk about 694 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:52,119 Speaker 2: it with other people. 695 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,799 Speaker 1: What happens if they get quite defensive, because I can 696 00:34:57,839 --> 00:35:00,959 Speaker 1: imagine when someone shit talking about you, they're very angry, right, 697 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,519 Speaker 1: So there's a heidened state of emotion. And again we 698 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:05,999 Speaker 1: don't know how they're going to respond to that, because 699 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:07,359 Speaker 1: it does take a lot of courage. 700 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:13,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, stay calm, find that anchor within yourself, try not 701 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:18,320 Speaker 2: to react. To their defensiveness and just sort of reiterate, Look, 702 00:35:18,359 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 2: I've just heard this and I just want to share 703 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 2: that if this is the case, can you please not 704 00:35:22,759 --> 00:35:24,279 Speaker 2: do it? So a little bit of that being that 705 00:35:24,319 --> 00:35:26,999 Speaker 2: broken record, repeating what you have to say, but doing 706 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:28,799 Speaker 2: it with confidence and. 707 00:35:28,799 --> 00:35:32,679 Speaker 1: Kindness, And as Michelle Obama would say, when they go low, 708 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:43,319 Speaker 1: you go high. Yes, Anastasia, I'm so happy we had 709 00:35:43,319 --> 00:35:46,999 Speaker 1: this discussion because friendship breakups are something we all deal with, 710 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 1: no matter what stage of life we're in. Can you 711 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 1: reiterate the main takeaways from today's episode. 712 00:35:52,919 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 2: One hundred percent. First of all, just because we're friends 713 00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 2: with someone now doesn't mean we will be friends with 714 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:04,359 Speaker 2: them forever, and that's okay. Second, consider if the friendship 715 00:36:04,439 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 2: breakup is just because you're on different parts in life 716 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:11,840 Speaker 2: or because there are deeper, more serious issues in the ship. Third, 717 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:14,759 Speaker 2: consider whether you want to remain friends but just at 718 00:36:14,759 --> 00:36:17,879 Speaker 2: a distance, or if you no longer want contact with 719 00:36:17,919 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 2: this person at all. Fourth, use the care framework if 720 00:36:22,759 --> 00:36:25,439 Speaker 2: you're struggling to find the words to have the conversation. 721 00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 2: And last of all, have a plan for how to 722 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 2: handle mutual social interactions. 723 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:33,319 Speaker 1: If you have a burning question for us. There are 724 00:36:33,319 --> 00:36:35,239 Speaker 1: a few ways to get in touch links or in 725 00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:35,920 Speaker 1: the show notes. 726 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:39,879 Speaker 2: And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't 727 00:36:39,919 --> 00:36:43,279 Speaker 2: a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas we present 728 00:36:43,359 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 2: here should always take into account your personal medical history. 729 00:36:47,479 --> 00:36:50,840 Speaker 2: The executive producer of But Are You Happy is Naima Brown. 730 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 1: Tarlie Blackman is our senior producer. 731 00:36:54,479 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 2: Sound design and editing by Jacob Brown. 732 00:36:57,439 --> 00:36:59,799 Speaker 1: I'm a Shani Dante and I'm. 733 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:03,719 Speaker 2: Doctor Anastasia Hernus. The names and stories of people discussed 734 00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:07,559 Speaker 2: have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity. If 735 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,759 Speaker 2: this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you, we 736 00:37:10,879 --> 00:37:13,759 Speaker 2: have links for more resources in the show notes around 737 00:37:13,799 --> 00:37:16,999 Speaker 2: the topics we discussed today. You can also reach out 738 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:21,160 Speaker 2: to organizations like Beyond Blue or Lifeline if you're wanting 739 00:37:21,359 --> 00:37:25,319 Speaker 2: more immediate support. Tune in next week as we unpack 740 00:37:25,399 --> 00:37:28,640 Speaker 2: how to reframe negative body thoughts in the age of 741 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 2: weight loss, meds and skinny culture. 742 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,480 Speaker 1: Muma Mia Studios are starred with furniture from Fentin and Fentin. 743 00:37:34,839 --> 00:37:37,959 Speaker 1: Visit Fenton Andfentin dot com dot au want to win 744 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,519 Speaker 1: a ten dollar e gift card and a Mumma mea 745 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,959 Speaker 1: subscription free for one month. Give us twenty minutes of 746 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 1: your time and fill out a short survey so we 747 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:50,039 Speaker 1: can better understand you, our audience, and what content you 748 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,759 Speaker 1: want from us. You'll find a link in our show notes. 749 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:55,239 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening and seeing you next time.