Speaker 1: We acknowledged the traditional custodians of the land we're recording
Speaker 1: on today.
Speaker 2: I already feel bad enough about that. Sometimes it's like
Speaker 2: you're not putting the idea into my head. Hello, and
Speaker 2: welcome back to Eat Sleep, Shit Repeat. The podcast soon
Speaker 2: to have a name change, and if Kiri Cells had
Speaker 2: her way, you would be referred to as Snott's because
Speaker 2: she wanted to call it eat sleep snot Repeat. What
Speaker 2: the actual fuck. I'm Kelly McCarran.
Speaker 1: And I'm Kiri's Cells, and Kell was pretty brutal with
Speaker 1: her feedback.
Speaker 2: We're going to get straight into things today because we
Speaker 2: have one hell of a guest later on in the episode.
Speaker 2: But first, peek and pit. But we're gonna make it
Speaker 2: snappy because our guest is more interesting than our silly
Speaker 2: little problems in offense.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Queen through the.
Speaker 1: Ship and I'm up first this week, so I'll start
Speaker 1: with my pit.
Speaker 4: Last Friday, I was went for a lovely afternoon at
Speaker 4: my sister in law's house and we just had such
Speaker 4: a great time.
Speaker 1: She was giving me all of her old.
Speaker 4: Daycare clothes for rue, all hanging out, and then about
Speaker 4: two o'clock, I was like, all right, let's go. We'll
Speaker 4: go get some sushi, get back to our normal Friday
Speaker 4: mother daughter day with the girls. So I bundled the
Speaker 4: girls into the car and off we went. I got
Speaker 4: maybe just around the corner, and the sun was in
Speaker 4: my eyes, and so I pulled down my visor and
Speaker 4: guess what was right behind my sun visor? A huge, huge, hairy,
Speaker 4: long leg, big bodied Huntsman spider, and I lost my shit.
Speaker 4: I was on a main road and it was so bad.
Speaker 4: I happened to also be drinking out of my drink
Speaker 4: bottle at time, and I used my other hand to
Speaker 4: pull down the visor. So at one stage I realized
Speaker 4: I was driving with no hands on the wheel because
Speaker 4: I automatically pushed the visor up to try and squish
Speaker 4: the spider, realizing it's not flush. So when I pulled
Speaker 4: it down, the spider was still there and then scurried.
Speaker 1: Down onto the windshield the front.
Speaker 4: Then I realized, okay, I had to like clock into
Speaker 4: gear here, Like what am I going to do? The
Speaker 4: kids are in the back. I'm definitely scared of spiders.
Speaker 4: I was pretty much hyperventilating by this point and screaming
Speaker 4: and ru was like screaming in the back because I'm screaming.
Speaker 4: I managed to get across four rows of traffic and
Speaker 4: then I just like throw my drink bottle with all
Speaker 4: the water in it at the spider. Then I just
Speaker 4: pulled into a random driveway, called my sister in law
Speaker 4: and she switched into gear, came and got me. She
Speaker 4: was like, you get in my car with Rue. I'll
Speaker 4: stay with Suki. She checked that Suki was okay, and
Speaker 4: we drove back to her house.
Speaker 2: Jim should do Survivor, like, honest, she should do Survivor.
Speaker 2: She would win. She's a woman you want around.
Speaker 4: She just switched into gear and she's really scared of
Speaker 4: spiders too, But she was like, I haven't seen it,
Speaker 4: so in my mind it doesn't exist. So she had
Speaker 4: a good look, couldn't find it. Ended up spraying the
Speaker 4: car with rid. She was like, you need to sit here,
Speaker 4: eat food, have a glass of water, because she was like,
Speaker 4: I have never seen you like that, rattled. She had
Speaker 4: to move my car because it was blocking her curR
Speaker 4: in and as she moved it, she saw the spider
Speaker 4: kind of dying and crawling along the back window. So
Speaker 4: we located the spider, but I could not drive home.
Speaker 1: I called.
Speaker 4: Charlie told him what happened, and I was like, I'm
Speaker 4: not driving home, like I'm too nervous with the girls
Speaker 4: in the car. It's also been raining heaps. It started
Speaker 4: raining again, so he ended up picking me up later.
Speaker 2: Can nature just stay outside?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree, and not in the car.
Speaker 4: It's like, you know what happens, it's from parking under
Speaker 4: trees and huntsmen's drop out of trees into the car
Speaker 4: and because they're warm, they crawl inside. So avoid parking
Speaker 4: under trees when you're parking outside and hopefully that will help.
Speaker 2: Can you please tell me now what your peak is
Speaker 2: because I've got the hebgbis.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 4: So our family were in town, Charlie's sister, George and
Speaker 4: her partner and our little new baby, Ronnie, so Suki's
Speaker 4: little new cousin. It's just like so exciting for them
Speaker 4: to come to town, Like they came at Easter and
Speaker 4: we just had the best best time and.
Speaker 1: Then they came back.
Speaker 4: Actually, George and I had hens that we went to
Speaker 4: on the Saturday, and George and I used to live
Speaker 4: in Sydney together, so it was a little bit of
Speaker 4: like the nostalgia for those times that we lived in
Speaker 4: the same city, and then just all of us being
Speaker 4: together on a Sunday at the local BOWLO like having
Speaker 4: family time. We don't get to do it because they live,
Speaker 4: you know, up north, so it's just.
Speaker 1: Really nice anytime they come to town.
Speaker 4: And even with my sister in law Gem and her husband,
Speaker 4: like Charlie's brother that live here. They've got three girls
Speaker 4: and Rue is just obsessed with them, obsessed with them.
Speaker 4: So I think the most time we all spend together,
Speaker 4: I just see their little cousin relationships.
Speaker 2: Cousin relationships the best.
Speaker 4: It's just so sweet and they just play so well together.
Speaker 4: It's the big, supportive, nurturing, loving family that I have
Speaker 4: always really wanted, and I feel like so happy to.
Speaker 2: Have all, Like twenty year old Keys so happy.
Speaker 1: She's like, whoa, anyway, what's your pit? What's your pit?
Speaker 2: My pit is that I'm just so behind on my
Speaker 2: comms and I'm just so bad at it and it's
Speaker 2: really getting me down at the moment. It's not just
Speaker 2: one area as well. It's like Facebook, Messenger, Instagram, my emails,
Speaker 2: my actual text messages from my best friends. I'll go
Speaker 2: on there sometimes to text someone and I'll be like, oh,
Speaker 2: they messaged me three weeks ago and I just never responded.
Speaker 2: And I know that you're going to be like, oh, Kelly,
Speaker 2: give yourself a little bit of slack. You're very busy,
Speaker 2: but you are also notoriously bad on comms, so I
Speaker 2: feel like you're just making an excuse for both of
Speaker 2: us being shit. So if anyone has like a hack
Speaker 2: that if they were really bad at comms and then
Speaker 2: they now are good at it and they have like
Speaker 2: a weird little secret hack, please let me know what
Speaker 2: that hack is, because it's really getting to me because
Speaker 2: it adds like this other layer of stress that I'm
Speaker 2: letting people down all the time.
Speaker 4: Can I give you a hack now? Emoji is, using
Speaker 4: those emojis, doing voice notes, using Siri to dictate messages
Speaker 4: when you're in the car. It's really good. Like literally,
Speaker 4: I say it all the time, Hey, sirius and Kelly
Speaker 4: knew McCarry in a message, that's what you're saved in
Speaker 4: my phone as and it'll be like what do you
Speaker 4: want to to say? But I think taking the stress
Speaker 4: out of the response. Don't be like, oh I need
Speaker 4: to write back later, it's going to be too long.
Speaker 4: If it's going to be too long to a voice note.
Speaker 4: If it's going to be too long, dictate the message.
Speaker 2: Anyway, that's my pit. My peak is that two weeks
Speaker 2: ago Key, I had to call her straight away and
Speaker 2: she was so proud of me. I had proper canulas
Speaker 2: in my face and I didn't faint, I didn't get diarrhea,
Speaker 2: nervous poos, I didn't vomit, I didn't have to light well.
Speaker 2: I did have to lie down, sorry, but like I
Speaker 2: didn't have a panic attack. I was okay, what the hell?
Speaker 1: It was amazing, what a win. I cannot believe you
Speaker 1: didn't pass out.
Speaker 2: Why does no one else not have gas? Because it
Speaker 2: it didn't even really do anything. It was just such
Speaker 2: a good distraction. Yeah, So I was focusing on that
Speaker 2: and deep breaths and all that stuff that they tell
Speaker 2: you to do. Anyway, I don't even know. I was
Speaker 2: just so proud. Of course, if it was anywhere near
Speaker 2: a vein, I'm sure I would still have an absolute meltdown.
Speaker 2: But the fact that I did something so intensive because
Speaker 2: a pr organized it, because like this new treatment in
Speaker 2: Australia that I was trialing for work, and I didn't
Speaker 2: know anything about it, which is my silly fault. But
Speaker 2: I turn up and then the doctor's like, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm signing everything, and she goes to your okay with
Speaker 2: canulas in the face, and I said, I'm sorry, Oh
Speaker 2: my god, no I am not okay, but I was there, Yeah,
Speaker 2: what are you going to do?
Speaker 1: Walk out?
Speaker 2: And also you know then I would have ruined the
Speaker 2: relationship with the pr if I'd walked out and not
Speaker 2: ruined it. But there are just so many layers of
Speaker 2: reasons why I couldn't just bail out at the last second.
Speaker 2: So I was, oh, anyway, I did really well.
Speaker 1: I'm honestly so proud of you because it wasn't just
Speaker 1: a needle.
Speaker 2: It was a canula, like a thick and.
Speaker 4: Like going underneath the skin for quite a while. Reminded
Speaker 4: me almost like LiPo movements. You know when you see
Speaker 4: hears of LiPo and they go back and forth under
Speaker 4: the skin and you can kind of see the instrument.
Speaker 4: That's what it was, and that was in your face,
Speaker 4: Like I couldn't do that.
Speaker 2: Luke was making a noise watching it.
Speaker 1: I would too.
Speaker 4: It was anyway, I'm proud of you to.
Speaker 3: Talk to me sometimes.
Speaker 1: Dolores sometimes you have to be a high rideing bitch
Speaker 1: to survive.
Speaker 4: Okay, we have our first guest led Can I just
Speaker 4: be a bitch for a sec chat?
Speaker 1: And it is a good one.
Speaker 2: Our guest today is none other than the delightful Claire Stevens,
Speaker 2: friend of the pod and friend of ours. You definitely
Speaker 2: have read, watched, or listened to some of Claire's work
Speaker 2: because she is that bloody talented. It's actually kind of
Speaker 2: annoying because she's so smart. She's just one of those
Speaker 2: people that ticks every box. She is so smart and talented,
Speaker 2: but she's also just really funny and really nice. Claire
Speaker 2: is a digital content creator, screenwriter, editor and podcaster. She's
Speaker 2: the former editor in chief at Mumma Mea, which is
Speaker 2: obviously where we met her, and she has produced some
Speaker 2: of the site's most viral content. She's the brains and
Speaker 2: talent behind the top comedy podcast Canceled, which she hosted
Speaker 2: with her twin Jesse for years and it was always charting.
Speaker 2: She also launched the podcast but Are You Happy, which
Speaker 2: debuted at number twenty three in the whole country on
Speaker 2: the Australian Podcast Ranker and went on to be wildly successful.
Speaker 2: She works as a writer and producer on the Binge
Speaker 2: series Strife, and her first novel, The Worst Thing I've
Speaker 2: Ever Done, is due to be released in spring. Claire
Speaker 2: is also mum to a hilarious one year old Matilda
Speaker 2: and a longtime shitter. She has been with us, supporting
Speaker 2: us from the beginning, and we're so delighted to have
Speaker 2: her on. Claire Stevens, Welcome to the pod.
Speaker 3: Who I'm so excited to be here. I am such
Speaker 3: a devoted listener every episode.
Speaker 2: We know, so we just adore you. So that's why
Speaker 2: we're like, even when we're reformatting the show, you were
Speaker 2: the first person on our examples of like a shitter
Speaker 2: led episodes.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh. When I heard you were having shitters on,
Speaker 3: I was like, oh my god, should I reach out?
Speaker 2: But you know what, actually my example was it was
Speaker 2: Claire Stevens, how the hell did I write a book
Speaker 2: with a new boy?
Speaker 1: Yes, you did do that.
Speaker 3: It's not an aspirational story, I'll tell you.
Speaker 2: That, listen. I'm sure it involves lots of tears. Yes, yes,
Speaker 2: many many, not just from Matilda. That's not what you
Speaker 2: want to vent about today. No, what do you want
Speaker 2: to venture about today.
Speaker 3: Off, I have a rant, and I have to apologize
Speaker 3: because it's longer than a minute.
Speaker 2: That's okay, to pease, I realized.
Speaker 1: Okay, well, yeah, we weren't timing it, were we.
Speaker 3: Whoops?
Speaker 1: We make a lot of rules and we break it
Speaker 1: every single week.
Speaker 3: Yes, okay, are we ready for my Rantay? Okay? My
Speaker 3: rant is generally about tradwives, but it goes in strange directions.
Speaker 3: Everywhere I look, I'm being told that your children are
Speaker 3: only young for such a short period of time, and
Speaker 3: it is so incredibly important to spend that time with them,
Speaker 3: that to work is actually morally wrong. There are conservative
Speaker 3: commentators who say feminism has gone too far and it
Speaker 3: pushed women outside the home, and now women are less
Speaker 3: happy than ever because deep down we want to be
Speaker 3: at home with our babies, but we've been forced by
Speaker 3: angry feminists to go to work, and that stuffed up
Speaker 3: the economy to the point where women now need to
Speaker 3: work in order for most households to function. I want
Speaker 3: to acknowledge that I do know a lot of women
Speaker 3: who have to go back to work before they feel
Speaker 3: emotionally ready, and there are a lot of mums who
Speaker 3: would love to spend the early years at home with
Speaker 3: their kids, and there are a lot of mums who
Speaker 3: do and to be totally transparent. If money wasn't as
Speaker 3: much of a pressure, I would probably work a little
Speaker 3: bit less. However, the tradwife aesthetic slash discourse has got
Speaker 3: to go. So much of this conservative bullshit is idealizing
Speaker 3: a golden age that never existed. It never happened. There
Speaker 3: was no time in history where women walked around barefoot
Speaker 3: in silk slightly sexy nineties, doing crafts with their small
Speaker 3: families and being this imaginary perfect parent. This childhood they
Speaker 3: are asking us to create, never happened. Look at it
Speaker 3: from the child's perspective. A generation ago, it was my
Speaker 3: mum working with too many kids and not enough money,
Speaker 3: no offense. Mum, I spent a lot of time in
Speaker 3: front of the television and inventing games with my siblings,
Speaker 3: and it was glorious. Two generations ago, it was my
Speaker 3: nana also working several jobs with seven kids who got
Speaker 3: no one on one time with their mother. Ever, three
Speaker 3: generations ago, it was more children because contraception didn't exist.
Speaker 3: So where my time goes to paid employment, that woman's
Speaker 3: time went to her other fourteen children, and washing clothes
Speaker 3: and cooking and cleaning took longer because the technology wasn't
Speaker 3: there to expedite it. Before that, before industrialization and early capitalism,
Speaker 3: the nuclear family didn't even exist. We lived in multi
Speaker 3: generational homes which provided a village. So the grandmothers and
Speaker 3: the aunties and the cousins were all helping out, and
Speaker 3: everyone was caring for each other. So a mother might
Speaker 3: be caring for a child but also their mother and
Speaker 3: also whoever else needed it. And cooking and cleaning is work.
Speaker 3: You cannot be constantly fully engaged with your child while
Speaker 3: cooking and cleaning. It isn't possible. This idea of complete
Speaker 3: self safe in the service of one child is a face,
Speaker 3: and I refuse to be beat up with a made
Speaker 3: up stick. I'll also say that that guy who did
Speaker 3: that podcast episode about wanting a partner who didn't work
Speaker 3: and just goes on hot girl walks and is happy
Speaker 3: to see him at the end of the day, sir,
Speaker 3: it sounds like you're unaware that life also happens to women.
Speaker 3: Even if a woman doesn't work and doesn't fucking hate
Speaker 3: housework like I do, she still might get the flu,
Speaker 3: and her family member might be unwell, and she might
Speaker 3: break her leg, and she might be stressed because the
Speaker 3: fridge broke, and you need to be there to support her.
Speaker 3: You not wanting to deal with the emotional load of
Speaker 3: your partner having a job. Is actually you not wanting
Speaker 3: to deal with the emotional load of having a partner.
Speaker 3: But that is another topic altogether. I just wanted to
Speaker 3: get that in. In conclusion, research shows that even with
Speaker 3: more mums and dads working outside the home than ever,
Speaker 3: modern parents are spending twice the amount of time with
Speaker 3: their kids and parents fifty years ago. Stop glorifying a
Speaker 3: golden age that never fucking existed, you misogynistic to us.
Speaker 3: I'm done.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, well done getting that off your chest.
Speaker 3: I actually really do you.
Speaker 4: Look every time.
Speaker 3: I see those freakin videos on social media that are
Speaker 3: saying like you know that one, it's Jordan Peterson's voice
Speaker 3: in the background and it's like young, yes, young man.
Speaker 5: It's just so romanticized as well, because it's like, yeah
Speaker 5: they are, but you know what, you still have to
Speaker 5: pay bills when they're young, and they scream at you
Speaker 5: were lost, yes.
Speaker 3: And like it just never happened. This year that we
Speaker 3: are idealizing, Like I think the act of being a
Speaker 3: parent is a constant exercise in guilt because you're never
Speaker 3: gonna feel like you're enough for your child, and that
Speaker 3: is kind of love, Like that's kind of what love is,
Speaker 3: feeling like you always want to give me because if.
Speaker 2: You feel like you've given enough, well, you know what,
Speaker 2: you're probably pretty shit. You're a psychopath who doesn't love
Speaker 2: them that much. Exactly if you think you're done.
Speaker 3: There's another like midwife such researcher who I always see
Speaker 3: on TikTok and she is always like going on about
Speaker 3: but breastfeeding and like the mum needing to be at
Speaker 3: home for the first five years, and her vibe is
Speaker 3: like if you're not going to be at home for
Speaker 3: the first five years, like why did you even have
Speaker 3: a child?
Speaker 2: And I'm like, well, that's how we all bought there
Speaker 2: would be no.
Speaker 3: Popular children human being.
Speaker 4: I don't think I've ever heard it summarized so well
Speaker 4: with the generational differences, yes, and the invention of machines
Speaker 4: to help alleviate that stuff, Like, I don't think I've
Speaker 4: ever heard read it that clearly because it.
Speaker 1: Is so true.
Speaker 4: I mean I'm struggling so much at the moment with
Speaker 4: the house, and it gets me down so much, to
Speaker 4: the point where like people wanted to come and see
Speaker 4: Suuki as a newborn, and I was saying, like, no,
Speaker 4: but is.
Speaker 2: That because you go on your phone and you see
Speaker 2: everyone with their perfect esthetic house where it looks like
Speaker 2: this kid doesn't even live. Yes, yes, And all the
Speaker 2: trad wife content where they've got like full makeup, beautiful
Speaker 2: gown on, it doesn't help and attached to their nipple,
Speaker 2: and it's like, that's just not realistic.
Speaker 4: It doesn't help some of those creators who are doing
Speaker 4: that content.
Speaker 1: What is it like when you turn that camera off?
Speaker 4: Because I'm telling you, I'm spiraling about not even being
Speaker 4: able to show up and I don't even care what
Speaker 4: I look like on social media, but how you showing
Speaker 4: up so perfectly? Like surely there has to be a
Speaker 4: toll on that person showing up in that way. And
Speaker 4: then the other point I wanted to make was just
Speaker 4: about the fact that all of these tradwives are working.
Speaker 3: Oh okay, that is the pyramid scheme of at all
Speaker 3: every panel I see where it's a woman and she's like,
Speaker 3: here's the case for not working. I'm like, what do
Speaker 3: you call speaking on a panel? Yeah, on a panel
Speaker 3: writing all of that. And I'm genuinely not saying that
Speaker 3: there is anything wrong with mums who stay home. I reckon,
Speaker 3: in an ideal world, I would love to have a
Speaker 3: period like that.
Speaker 2: Why would you go for a hot girl walk every day?
Speaker 3: I would freaking love that. And I think a lot
Speaker 3: of people would love that or have done that. I
Speaker 3: know so many incredible women who spent five years, seven years, whatever, yeah,
Speaker 3: and like, good on them. I'm parts of being a
Speaker 3: jealous of that. However, it's the tradwives who are like
Speaker 3: making a living out of time talking about it, and
Speaker 3: I'm like, no, no, no, no no. The definition of
Speaker 3: what you are proposing is someone that's invisible, like technically
Speaker 3: invisible because they're not writing or communicating.
Speaker 4: The other thing about it is like the class version
Speaker 4: of it, because there are historically there's only one real
Speaker 4: group of people that could actually afford not to work exactly.
Speaker 4: And then the other thing is that the muddling of
Speaker 4: stay at home mum and trad wife because I never
Speaker 4: thought about it in that way, but I think what's
Speaker 4: really clever and the way that trad Wives has kind
Speaker 4: of got more momentum with it is piggybacking onto that.
Speaker 4: So people that don't actually want to be a trad
Speaker 4: wife are now all lumped into. You know, you might
Speaker 4: want to be a stay at home mum, but you
Speaker 4: don't want to be a trad wife, but you're a
Speaker 4: lumped in together. So now there's this even higher level
Speaker 4: of excellence perfection that we're meant to reach is stay
Speaker 4: at home mums.
Speaker 2: Yea, and is so performative and it is so classist.
Speaker 4: It is so classist, and it's something I hadn't realized before,
Speaker 4: Like everyone looks at those mums and I was like,
Speaker 4: oh yeah, but be you know, objectively beautiful, have a
Speaker 4: perfect house, have the option not to have to go
Speaker 4: to work.
Speaker 2: Every day even though you are going to work every
Speaker 2: day by filming content, going on past yes, monetizing, and they're.
Speaker 3: Probably making a whole lot more money than you. That's ridiculous.
Speaker 2: Then their partner swans in like as if they've had
Speaker 2: such a hard day.
Speaker 3: Either of you.
Speaker 1: Watched The Secret Live of Mormon?
Speaker 3: Why no? But I need to, okay, because it's.
Speaker 4: Really interesting because if you haven't seen the show, a
Speaker 4: group of Mormons became very famous. There was a swinging scandal.
Speaker 1: They've got a pilot out of it.
Speaker 4: It's glorious, it's old housewives, it's raw reality TV, and
Speaker 4: they just want to stab each other in the back.
Speaker 1: It's perfection.
Speaker 4: But what was really interesting about that is that all
Speaker 4: of them have done so well and they're in this
Speaker 4: very traditional relationship of genders. But because they're making so
Speaker 4: much money, their partners are a little bit like, oh,
Speaker 4: but now you're kind of outgrowing that. And one of
Speaker 4: them gave their husband an ultimatum and he actually left
Speaker 4: his medical school placement in order for her to be
Speaker 4: in mom oh. But that I felt was really interesting
Speaker 4: because a lot of these famous people are making enough
Speaker 4: money to pay all of the bills, so then you're
Speaker 4: not actually in a traditional gender at.
Speaker 1: All. You are the breadwinner.
Speaker 2: I love that honesty, though, that they're being honest about
Speaker 2: when they're not being honest about the fact that they
Speaker 2: are working and they are making bank and that they're
Speaker 2: just like this silly little woman at home looking after
Speaker 2: the children and baking things from scratch. That's what I
Speaker 2: don't like because it completely like undermines all of the
Speaker 2: progression that we have done over the past decades, longer
Speaker 2: than that.
Speaker 3: But it's like stay at home mums generally are not
Speaker 3: placing any judgment on the mums who go the traditional work.
Speaker 3: I'm saying the majority. I'm sure there are something outline
Speaker 3: and mums who go to work and not fucking passing
Speaker 3: judgment on the state at home mums. But that's why
Speaker 3: we get so freaking triggered by the ones on TikTok
Speaker 3: who are yelling at us, because it's like, stop, I'm
Speaker 3: not judging anyone, why are you yelling at.
Speaker 2: But I also feel so guilty enough about my exactnesses
Speaker 2: and you know, the days along but the years assured,
Speaker 2: and then they'll post those things that go it's crazy
Speaker 2: that for the first few years of our children's lives,
Speaker 2: we see them for half an hour in the morning,
Speaker 2: then we send them to daycare for someone else to
Speaker 2: look after them while we go to work, and then
Speaker 2: we see them. I already feel bad enough about that,
Speaker 2: sometimes not for the time.
Speaker 3: It's like you're not putting the idea into my head.
Speaker 2: I recently said something about you know those when something
Speaker 2: awful happens and then people post like themselves crying and
Speaker 2: they go make sure you hug your babies extra tight tonight.
Speaker 2: Everyone was thinking, yeah, yeah, yeah, you need to point
Speaker 2: it out and make other people feel really bad, like
Speaker 2: and also like, does that mean that you think that
Speaker 2: that person didn't hug their child like tight enough that
Speaker 2: that doesn't awful happen?
Speaker 3: Have perspective already because most of us do, and I
Speaker 3: find but it's so incredibly unfair to do that to women.
Speaker 3: And I do feel like this conservativism and this idea
Speaker 3: of traditional values is creeping in further and further. And
Speaker 3: we have probably all experienced the difference between a marriage
Speaker 3: with kids breaking down where the mum worked and a
Speaker 3: marriage with kids where it breaks down and the mother
Speaker 3: didn't work, And how different the trajectory of that woman's life,
Speaker 3: I know, And how unfair it is because all of us,
Speaker 3: like we would love to think that the partners that
Speaker 3: we have right now, we are going to be with
Speaker 3: them for the rest of our lives, and they are
Speaker 3: good men and they would look after us. But the
Speaker 3: fact is that's not always the case. Statistically, Statistically, it's
Speaker 3: not always the case, and it's not the case that
Speaker 3: they would be that good human when things end because
Speaker 3: there are men who don't pay child support in all
Speaker 3: of that, and you end up being a woman who
Speaker 3: is living a really fucking hard life. And I think
Speaker 3: that the whole child wife thing is very ignorant.
Speaker 2: Of that because it's take into consideration the one percent
Speaker 2: who it doesn't matter if they break up because they're
Speaker 2: earning enough bank themselves. But also even if they weren't,
Speaker 2: like they would get enough in the breakup to set
Speaker 2: themselves up for life and it doesn't matter. But it's
Speaker 2: for all of the people in the lowest socioeconomic brackets
Speaker 2: that they're the ones that are really impacted so much.
Speaker 4: Your feminism was about us just having the opportunity to
Speaker 4: do things, but also having something to fall back on,
Speaker 4: making our own money, and I think that that creeping
Speaker 4: in of those traditional values erases that, and then it
Speaker 4: just makes us way more vulnerable to being able to
Speaker 4: survive on our own, which is really scary, because surviving
Speaker 4: on our own even in the way of like something
Speaker 4: happening to your partner, you know. And then you're like,
Speaker 4: because there was something I was reading, it was like
Speaker 4: learned helplessness on both sides, right, Men are like, I
Speaker 4: can't tie my shoelace.
Speaker 1: Not that, but you know that's an example.
Speaker 3: Stuff with the kids that they.
Speaker 4: Can't do right, and then women are like, well, I
Speaker 4: can't do my taxes, I can't do this, and that
Speaker 4: like that's the stuff that will really negatively affect us
Speaker 4: overall from that traditional wife then coming in, because that's
Speaker 4: the stuff that's our power, and that's how we bring
Speaker 4: ourselves out of stuff, being able to be fully functioning
Speaker 4: in society without someone having to do that for us.
Speaker 3: And that's so true that it's like the women that
Speaker 3: you see on panels or TV shows or whatever talking
Speaker 3: about like, oh, but my husband would never leave me
Speaker 3: or whatever. It's like doesn't even have to be your
Speaker 3: husband leaving. It could be your husband to die or
Speaker 3: getting sick and medical bills, it could be more sorts
Speaker 3: of unpredictable things. But I think what you said, Kelly
Speaker 3: about people who are uber wealthy, they have the luxury
Speaker 3: of buying into this idea. And there's this thing that
Speaker 3: I've heard spoken about called luxury beliefs, and it's like
Speaker 3: the kind of beliefs that, yeah, you can have if
Speaker 3: you're privileged enough to have them. And I think the
Speaker 3: traadwife thing is exactly that most of us. And the
Speaker 3: same thing as like women not working. I'm like my
Speaker 3: working class grandmother in I don't know, the nineteen forties,
Speaker 3: nineteen fifties, whatever was working.
Speaker 2: She was working at what my nanny did for so
Speaker 2: many years. She plucked chickens. She cannot eat a chicken,
Speaker 2: although I think she does now because of her dementia,
Speaker 2: she forgets that she hates chickens. She plucked chickens for years.
Speaker 2: And yes there was a fair few years where she
Speaker 2: wasn't working because she was looking after the four boys,
Speaker 2: but that wasn't like this endless time that she was
Speaker 2: spending with young children. She always had different jobs. And
Speaker 2: the thing was is that one of her biggest regrets
Speaker 2: is that she wanted to be a nurse. That's all
Speaker 2: she wanted to do, but she couldn't because it wasn't
Speaker 2: women didn't go to university, or if they did, it
Speaker 2: was a huge deal. And so she was a dressmaker,
Speaker 2: or she was plucking chickens, or she was also working
Speaker 2: at a factory that my par worked at, but she
Speaker 2: wasn't not working. And the same thing with my mom,
Speaker 2: like even though my dad was the primary breadwinner. My
Speaker 2: mom was always working because they wanted to do different
Speaker 2: things and they had a big mortgage and it wasn't
Speaker 2: an option not to.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's almost like there's like a historical amnesia,
Speaker 3: Like I look at my Nan, and my Nan had
Speaker 3: to drop out of school in year eight because her
Speaker 3: mum got sick, and her brothers were allowed to finish
Speaker 3: school and continue education. But it's like, you're the girl,
Speaker 3: so you have to be thirteen fourteen and looking after
Speaker 3: the whole family, cooking, cleaning and all of that. And
Speaker 3: I remember looking at my Nan at eighty and thinking, Nne,
Speaker 3: you're really smart, Like it would have been so interesting
Speaker 3: to see what it would have been like for her
Speaker 3: to finish.
Speaker 2: If she'd been able to do what she wanted to do.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's like we know, like there are just
Speaker 3: endless statistics about the value of education in every aspect
Speaker 3: of like the depth of life that somebody's able to experience,
Speaker 3: the kind of like cultural joys they can experience, and
Speaker 3: then not to mention life expectancy and all of that.
Speaker 3: But it's like the creeping in of these traditional values
Speaker 3: then creeps in on that stuff. It's like, well, if
Speaker 3: you're not gonna work, what's the point in education. I
Speaker 3: think it's so dangerous. And I see debates play out
Speaker 3: and I'm like, it's not a debate. The debate's done. Yeah,
Speaker 3: did the debate we try to go?
Speaker 2: Yeah? And I also have a huge problem with the
Speaker 2: women that comment on these videos saying, Oh, I totally
Speaker 2: get what this person is saying, and I really love
Speaker 2: just being a traditional at home, stay at home mum
Speaker 2: or whatever. Okay, that's great, but you don't need to
Speaker 2: encourage it. It's lovely that you are emotionally, mentally, and
Speaker 2: financially okay enough to do that, and that's great for you.
Speaker 2: But just like I wouldn't say that every single woman
Speaker 2: should go be a nurse, you don't really need to
Speaker 2: say that every woman should be doing this because it's
Speaker 2: just not helpful and it's so dangerous, and it's also
Speaker 2: so privileged of you to come to that sort of
Speaker 2: opinion without considering everything that we just discussed with like, Okay,
Speaker 2: well what if that man leaves the woman?
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's true. I think about how far we've come
Speaker 3: in the last few decades with gender and our understandings
Speaker 3: of gender, and I love and I hope that the
Speaker 3: way we're going is almost dismantling gender roles and gender
Speaker 3: identity in a way that changes what our lives look like.
Speaker 3: And then it's so bizarre that it's like this one
Speaker 3: movement is going on one side where it's like what
Speaker 3: is gender? Does this even matter? There's no gender binary?
Speaker 3: And then on the other hand you have like, not
Speaker 3: only do we believe in this absolute, immovable boundary, but
Speaker 3: we believe that it should dictate how you live, Like
Speaker 3: how also.
Speaker 2: Exclude so many different groups of people, but the couples
Speaker 2: exactly working mum, It excludes anyone that doesn't fit that
Speaker 2: really traditional boring.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4: I don't think that that is like a mistake, though
Speaker 4: I think one is because of the other. You know,
Speaker 4: it's a direct reaction to that. And I loved something
Speaker 4: I read It was like we've gone from girl boss
Speaker 4: to tradwife, And I think that that's nomous steak as well,
Speaker 4: because there is this ideal that really appeals to some women. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and the girl bossed it so hard that now they're like,
Speaker 4: I need a tad wife, you know.
Speaker 1: Like it's interesting that how.
Speaker 4: These different movements end up influencing something else, and it's
Speaker 4: always the pendulum swinging from far side to far side.
Speaker 3: And I think it's like the medium is the message.
Speaker 3: I think it's because there is no room for nuance
Speaker 3: on the internet because the girl Boss movement had issues too.
Speaker 3: It's like T.
Speaker 2: Shirts with hashtag girl boss and it Oh oh god,
Speaker 2: I was that that.
Speaker 1: Had a choke hold on me. I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker 3: Oh my.
Speaker 1: I was just like, I have to girl boss.
Speaker 3: This is lean in. Like I was so into it.
Speaker 3: I was so into it. And then I think it's
Speaker 3: having a baby that re clarifies it for you, and
Speaker 3: it's like, hold on, this is more complex than that.
Speaker 3: And I was really conscious Key, I don't know if
Speaker 3: you feel this, but like I did a podcast maybe
Speaker 3: six weeks after Matilda was born, and then I remember
Speaker 3: I did one where no one could look after her.
Speaker 3: So I did a podcast with her st to me
Speaker 3: in the podcast studio. Yeah, and there was a video
Speaker 3: of it, and I was so conscious of like, I'm
Speaker 3: not doing this as a value statement, like I'm not yeah,
Speaker 3: I'm doing it because it was possible in that moment,
Speaker 3: and she happened to sleep, and there was every possibility.
Speaker 2: She was going to wake up.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I am not saying that women should do this.
Speaker 3: I know I don't particularly want to be doing this
Speaker 3: right now.
Speaker 4: Well, I had a little like freak out the other
Speaker 4: day just because I'm very not good with my confidence.
Speaker 4: A lot of the audience who were listening to that
Speaker 4: wrote and then were like, you know, you just back
Speaker 4: at work and inspiring, and I'm thinking like, oh no, no,
Speaker 4: I'm not trying to be like and now I'm back working.
Speaker 1: No, I'm a freelancer.
Speaker 4: I need to be back in order for us to
Speaker 4: like be able to make money as a family.
Speaker 1: This is not aspirational.
Speaker 3: And I think that's the other thing about the Internet
Speaker 3: that like no room for nuance. But it also has
Speaker 3: become this weird thing where we think that everything someone
Speaker 3: else does is a statement on us. And then that's
Speaker 3: what annoys me about the trad wife thing is because
Speaker 3: it's being explicit about that. Like if I see somebody
Speaker 3: who's taken a year's matt leave and just looks like
Speaker 3: they are in heaven, which I see all the time,
Speaker 3: and I get a pang of jealousy, I'm like, ooh,
Speaker 3: I've got to think about that. That's about me, that's
Speaker 3: not about them, but with the child wife stuff that
Speaker 3: is explicitly just getting a knife and going into that
Speaker 3: area women.
Speaker 1: Because it doesn't exist. Yeah, it's just yeah.
Speaker 2: I think your sister actually because she was so open
Speaker 2: when she was postpartum about loving it yeah yeah, and
Speaker 2: really loving being on Matt leave, and that she really
Speaker 2: liked her birth and she was actually really happy. And
Speaker 2: she was talking about how it was weird because a
Speaker 2: lot of the conversations are prior to her having that,
Speaker 2: she'd felt like it was all going to be just
Speaker 2: like quite negative.
Speaker 1: But me and my.
Speaker 2: Sister, who both had awful experiences postpartuman in birth, we're
Speaker 2: talking about it, and we were saying it was actually
Speaker 2: so refreshing and nice to hear someone speak about it
Speaker 2: in a way that was different, but also not twisting
Speaker 2: a knife in any way. She was really appreciating it,
Speaker 2: and it was actually really nice to hear that perspective,
Speaker 2: which is why it's you need to have different opinions
Speaker 2: and perspectives because otherwise the conversation would be so boring.
Speaker 2: But you need to be able to have the conversation
Speaker 2: not just think that it's your way or the high way,
Speaker 2: because none of us are saying that it's bad to
Speaker 2: be a stay at home mum and want to cook
Speaker 2: and clean for your partner and your family. But we
Speaker 2: are saying that it's bad if you're saying that that's
Speaker 2: the only way to do things.
Speaker 1: Yes, it's going to say they're all white.
Speaker 2: He they are all white, and they all not all No,
Speaker 2: they're not white. Nara Smith is not white. True, true,
Speaker 2: Like it's dangerous because their views not there maybe personally,
Speaker 2: and also they probably don't loudly and proudly say their
Speaker 2: political beliefs, but some of them are just really far right.
Speaker 4: Some of them are quite political in what they say,
Speaker 4: like a lot of them are. I think it does
Speaker 4: have like a religious understroyed for shit does.
Speaker 2: But that adds to how dangerous it can be.
Speaker 1: Completely I agree.
Speaker 3: I saw a panel discussion recently. I don't know if
Speaker 3: you guys saw it. It was on Piers Morgan and
Speaker 3: there was Clementine Ford and she was the only one
Speaker 3: on this panel who was arguing against the trad wife vibe.
Speaker 3: And then there was a husband and wife and another
Speaker 3: woman and it was like she was mocked the whole time.
Speaker 3: She was made fun of, And I was like Oh
Speaker 3: my god, this is what we're living in, where like
Speaker 3: she would.
Speaker 2: Have also just been saying what I just said, that
Speaker 2: it's not bad if you want to yes, yes, but
Speaker 2: don't tell other people. And then they're making fun of
Speaker 2: her for that.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, and it went all these clips from it
Speaker 3: went viral, just made fun of her, and I was like,
Speaker 3: oh my god, this is the world we're living in,
Speaker 3: where like she is mocked and the power lies with
Speaker 3: these conservatives who also set it up so it can't
Speaker 3: be argued. Like I was like a panel where three
Speaker 3: of the four people and the host were against Yeah, argument,
Speaker 3: that's panel. Like, No, I don't know if you guys
Speaker 3: get all the Ben Shapiro stuff.
Speaker 2: He terrifies me. But I also is his name Dean Withers,
Speaker 2: Dean the kind of blondie guard. Yes, he's like twenty
Speaker 2: years old.
Speaker 3: Yes, do you know what?
Speaker 2: I want him and that bloke from that shitty Australian
Speaker 2: podcast to have a debate. That's what I want because
Speaker 2: he's the only twenty year old I want to listen to.
Speaker 3: Yes, who was able to argue against him? Like there's
Speaker 3: a British woman actually who was able to argue against.
Speaker 2: I'm just period so many things. Ben Shapiro, He's just
Speaker 2: why do you have points that make sense about something?
Speaker 3: No, there is a difference between somebody being educated enough
Speaker 3: to articulate and argument well and argue a point well
Speaker 3: and that point itself being valid. Like they are two
Speaker 3: different things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so true.
Speaker 3: Sometimes I see someone I'm like, wow, you are so smart.
Speaker 3: You're an excellent debater, like excellent strategies of like tearing
Speaker 3: apart in argument. I do not agree with your argument
Speaker 3: at all, And it's like smart people. That's the thing
Speaker 3: about smart people can argue even illogical, deeply flawed things
Speaker 3: very very very well well and make you question.
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously there are some things that he could
Speaker 2: never make me question, but he does still always have
Speaker 2: really strong arguments, which if you're not that confident with
Speaker 2: your own critical thinking, maybe then you could watch something
Speaker 2: like that. He's got such a big platform and think, yeah,
Speaker 2: you're right.
Speaker 3: And he speaks so fast and he interrupts people.
Speaker 2: I've got a list of about five people I never
Speaker 2: want to debate with.
Speaker 3: The I can live knowing I'm right and you're wrong
Speaker 3: and never.
Speaker 1: Have to have a conversation.
Speaker 2: You would put me in my place, and you would
Speaker 2: make me doubt every single thing about myself and my
Speaker 2: brain within five seconds. We can't have the tried wife
Speaker 2: conversation without touching on the ridiculousness and complete unrelatable of
Speaker 2: just how much it leans on that heavily aesthetic interest beige.
Speaker 2: Their houses look like no children actually live there. Their
Speaker 2: kitchens are always spotless, everything is made from scratch. The
Speaker 2: toddlers aren't ever screaming at them about the baked goods
Speaker 2: being ready or being cut up in a certain way.
Speaker 2: Like there's nothing about the content that is a reflection
Speaker 2: of real life, which is fine if it's not designed
Speaker 2: to like, if your content is kind of like not
Speaker 2: designed to be relatable, if it's just like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 2: like I'm doing special effects makeup or I'm a high
Speaker 2: fashion girlie. But this obviously isn't stuff that you just wear.
Speaker 2: Generally is very different to when it's being portrayed in
Speaker 2: a way that they are trying to make out that
Speaker 2: it's real life and that that's just what every day
Speaker 2: actually looks like.
Speaker 3: And the implication is if you lived like this, your
Speaker 3: life would be calm.
Speaker 6: And stressed, free to and you also you speak like this,
Speaker 6: to speak slowly and make bubble gum from scratch.
Speaker 3: There's no screaming children. You have enough space where your
Speaker 3: children are playing somewhere else, which.
Speaker 4: There's obviously a nanny. Yes, because you're working. You're not
Speaker 4: a stay at home mum. And the traditional definition.
Speaker 2: Of that, because if it was, there would be mess
Speaker 2: everywhere because no one can clean up as they go
Speaker 2: that well, you would hear the children babbling, asking questions,
Speaker 2: then screaming. One of them would have a tantrum, one
Speaker 2: of them would fight with the other one.
Speaker 3: I know. Yeah, they hire a studio like maybe Marcle.
Speaker 3: It's just all like a film. I didn't realize before
Speaker 3: I had a child was how much being a picky
Speaker 3: eater is innate. I always assumed that it was like nurture,
Speaker 3: that maybe, like my mum was too fucking busy to
Speaker 3: like introduce me to different textures, hence why I'm a pigire. Yeah,
Speaker 3: but having like experiment like Jesse has a child, I
Speaker 3: have a child. I am lazy with food. I do
Speaker 3: not do anything exceptional and my child will eat anything
Speaker 3: that is biology. But watching Luna and Matilda, who at
Speaker 3: like if you compared them at the same age. Luna
Speaker 3: is picky and it is nothing that Jesse has done,
Speaker 3: and Matilda will eat anything. It is nothing that I
Speaker 3: have done.
Speaker 2: I've heard Jesse talk about like she's home cooking and
Speaker 2: being so careful about everything that is in different things.
Speaker 3: She does so much more than me, and I'm like,
Speaker 3: that is actually so unfair. And the tradwife thing, whereas
Speaker 3: Narah Smith doing all her bloody, weird milks and her
Speaker 3: weird foods. I'm like, those kids they are eating that.
Speaker 3: That is not an environmental thing. That is luck and
Speaker 3: it is not that if anyone behaved like that, they
Speaker 3: guess we'll freaking eat that. No.
Speaker 4: And I was definitely like that at the beginning, and
Speaker 4: Rue I only wanted to eat pasta, so I just
Speaker 4: gave that up. I was just like, fine, you will
Speaker 4: eat that stuff when you want to eat that stuff.
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna waste my time anymore.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I do not cook anymore through the week at all.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, the other day she was like, can I
Speaker 1: have some carrots? And I was like whoa.
Speaker 4: So then I cooked her some carrots and she ate
Speaker 4: all of them and I was like, carrots are in
Speaker 4: I put them to bed. I didn't worry about it
Speaker 4: and said she'll get there in the end, and she does, because.
Speaker 1: They get exposed in other places.
Speaker 2: If your kids at daycare, they're getting exposed totally.
Speaker 1: I love seeing them.
Speaker 4: They're eating together at their little table, like all together,
Speaker 4: like a little cult.
Speaker 3: It is.
Speaker 1: It's so cute.
Speaker 2: Is not at daycare yet?
Speaker 3: No, she's doing though. I'm going to a place called
Speaker 3: Bubba Desk once a week where her working space with
Speaker 3: a crate. I want to ask you and essentially charge
Speaker 3: it on site, which is great for me a day
Speaker 3: roughly about saying okay, one sixty. I structure my day
Speaker 3: by being like, Okay, I'm going to do some writing,
Speaker 3: I'm gonna do whatever task, and then I'm going to
Speaker 3: go and put her down for a nap, and then
Speaker 3: I'll come and give her a lunch. Like It's a
Speaker 3: really nice way, and it's also good for if you're
Speaker 3: still breastfeeding care and then they'll message you and be
Speaker 3: like hungry.
Speaker 1: She wants she wants to can they be.
Speaker 3: Or Matilda was very little. I did a few days
Speaker 3: when Matilda was maybe like four months.
Speaker 4: Okay, I was actually gonna ask you about this because
Speaker 4: I'm kind of thinking about my.
Speaker 1: She's just starting to get a bit vocal.
Speaker 4: And I'm also like sitting here all day working and
Speaker 4: she's looking at me like, bitch, I have developed more.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wanted things to do.
Speaker 2: She really wanted it when I arrived this morning because
Speaker 2: I entertained her.
Speaker 1: That actually made me feel really bad.
Speaker 4: Girl.
Speaker 1: I was like, I just do not play with her enough.
Speaker 3: Jess, and I always say it when I walk into
Speaker 3: Jesse's place. Me and Luna have our own little games.
Speaker 3: Jesse has her own little games with Matilda. And I'm like,
Speaker 3: I can't make her laugh like that. You can't make
Speaker 3: Luna laugh like this. But again, I think.
Speaker 2: It's gonna make you both feel a bit bad. I
Speaker 2: can make my kids laugh like.
Speaker 3: No one else. You're a performer, however, perform.
Speaker 2: Also, you both know he is the most clingy mummies
Speaker 2: boy in the entire world, and that is that is why.
Speaker 3: You're a little man. But I do think like there
Speaker 3: are these little fleeting thoughts that you have throughout motherhood, right,
Speaker 3: and I am working with my psychologist on these thoughts
Speaker 3: at the moment, Like all those little thoughts, which is like, wait,
Speaker 3: why can somebody else make my child laugh more. And
Speaker 3: that's why the child wife stuff piss me off so much,
Speaker 3: because I'm like, do not poke at the insecurities like
Speaker 3: they are there. The mental health toll of those narratives
Speaker 3: as you are a mother is like, I think there
Speaker 3: are some amazing mental health benefits to being a parent,
Speaker 3: and I think there are some real challenges. Yes, I
Speaker 3: have a lot of friends who say, like, I don't
Speaker 3: want to have a child because I struggle with my
Speaker 3: mental health, and I'm like, reconsider that, because I think
Speaker 3: having a child can be exposure therapy for a lot
Speaker 3: of shit.
Speaker 2: Also, they force you to get out of bed in
Speaker 2: the money exactly exactly.
Speaker 3: Depression. My thing with depression exactly. My thing was always
Speaker 3: like lethargy. And then I'd get into a cycle where
Speaker 3: it's like I feel shit because i haven't got out
Speaker 3: of bed and I'm.
Speaker 2: Over the head exactly for a few days and you.
Speaker 3: Can't is actually a form of therapy, and I genuinely
Speaker 3: think it is exposure therapy for perfection because it's like,
Speaker 3: your kids not perfect, and you learn that you love
Speaker 3: them as much as you could possibly love anyone anyway, Yeah,
Speaker 3: and then you kind of start to look at yourself
Speaker 3: like that, and then you're like, no day is going
Speaker 3: to be perfect, nothing I do is going to be perfect,
Speaker 3: and yet this little human is growing and developing still,
Speaker 3: Like I genuinely think it's like a mental such a
Speaker 3: good point, like I do think there are parts of
Speaker 3: my mental health that have improved, but then I think
Speaker 3: there are challenges, and I think some of that fucking
Speaker 3: content just plays in.
Speaker 4: It's true because it's like all the mean stuff that
Speaker 4: you say in your head or not necessarily mean, like
Speaker 4: negative or questioning things that you do, and then looking
Speaker 4: at someone who's telling you.
Speaker 2: Like, you're right, you need to be better off.
Speaker 4: You would be better off to the right person that
Speaker 4: is really going to resonate and just make them feel awful,
Speaker 4: and it makes me feel awful and I know better, And.
Speaker 3: I think the darkest thought a mother can have, and
Speaker 3: I think depending on how your mental health has been
Speaker 3: as a parent, you might have had this, Kelly, because
Speaker 3: I know I have this every now and then you
Speaker 3: have it where it's like, oh am, I even the
Speaker 3: best mother for my child, would somebody else be at.
Speaker 2: The darkest thoughts is when you think you look at
Speaker 2: them and you go you would be so much better
Speaker 2: off without me exactly. When you're feeling clarity and not
Speaker 2: like that, you're like, of course that, you're like, that's.
Speaker 3: Such an logical thought. But when you're in the depths
Speaker 3: of it, that's the thought you have, and that's the
Speaker 3: thought that some of this shit presses on because it's
Speaker 3: like because then you're like, well, I'm not the stay.
Speaker 2: At home mum, I'm not all the time smiling.
Speaker 3: I'm not that maybe they would be better off with
Speaker 3: somebody else, Like it's so.
Speaker 4: And there's no way that that mum could achieve that exactly.
Speaker 4: So it's like they're just like, I'm just warning my
Speaker 4: kid's laugh.
Speaker 2: And that's why social media can be so dangerous though
Speaker 2: when it comes to these things, is that, yes, of
Speaker 2: course you can look at it. It's just a form
Speaker 2: of entertainment. But when they're hammering different, really dangerous messages home.
Speaker 2: If you're already feeling so shit and you are looking
Speaker 2: at your kid and you're thinking, oh my god, you'd
Speaker 2: be so much better off without me, you open up
Speaker 2: your phone. You open up your phone for entertainment or
Speaker 2: the news, maybe mainly to if you open up TikTok,
Speaker 2: you're looking for a little bit of entertainment, looking for
Speaker 2: a giggle, if you will. You're not looking for everything.
Speaker 2: You've just been feeling to be completely validated by a
Speaker 2: stranger with an objectively perfect house, perfect face, perfect children,
Speaker 2: smugly telling you exactly what you've just thought.
Speaker 3: It's true. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: That's how we started the pod.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that bit funny, and I have to say,
Speaker 2: very unperfect.
Speaker 3: I don't know if I've told you guys this, but
Speaker 3: I was struggling very early on with We had a
Speaker 3: thing where Matila just didn't latch in the first place,
Speaker 3: and then the breastfeeding kind of never never works off pumping.
Speaker 3: I was like triple feeding, you know when it's like
Speaker 3: and then you're pumping and then your formula for all
Speaker 3: that stuff. I was doing that for like five months,
Speaker 3: and I think I got to that five months and
Speaker 3: I was so broken and emotional and I was like,
Speaker 3: I want to feel permission to stop. I have not
Speaker 3: felt it, and I was almost looking for it, and
Speaker 3: it was u Key. I think you were talking about
Speaker 3: your breastfeeding journeys. I think UK said something like giving
Speaker 3: a bottle is really cute, and that was it. I
Speaker 3: was like giving a.
Speaker 2: Bottle is cute. You can't see their little face, no,
Speaker 2: you can see and then look the way that they're
Speaker 2: like caress your arm and when they.
Speaker 1: Hold it with their tiny hand and the bottle is
Speaker 1: so big, and you're just.
Speaker 3: Like how the bottle it's so cute. And it was
Speaker 3: you guys admitting like, well, not admitting like that even
Speaker 3: sounds bad, but it was you guys being honest about
Speaker 3: your journeys and how different they were. That it's like
Speaker 3: ket you enjoyed it and all of that. But it
Speaker 3: was like that she wait, like there was there's all
Speaker 3: that kind of stuff. It's like so many different reasons
Speaker 3: for it not to work, and it is not your
Speaker 3: fucking fault. No, And then I was like, I fucking
Speaker 3: did it five months, like I'm good, and that was
Speaker 3: like the permission. But I could have gone for another
Speaker 3: six months and my mental.
Speaker 2: Health would have just continued it fine decline. I recently
Speaker 2: got kicked out of a Facebook group before for yelling
Speaker 2: at someone who was, you know, very pushing the breast
Speaker 2: is best. I got so cranky, I said times.
Speaker 3: It wouldn't be a thing, I know, because the fed's
Speaker 3: best doesn't rhyme yeah, it was.
Speaker 2: Like catch anyway, listen, at the end of the day,
Speaker 2: I probably wasn't the kindest person to this woman. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I was removed from the group. Well, and I don't
Speaker 2: often comment because I have a lot of opinions and
Speaker 2: I have a lot of thoughts. But I don't often
Speaker 2: ever comment because I'm like, I don't want to argue
Speaker 2: with strangers on the internet, which is a.
Speaker 4: Normal response to things that you see on the internet, Right,
Speaker 4: I just want to say that is the normal. You
Speaker 4: are the normal person, and that's you know, it's.
Speaker 2: Not the normal. Well, what I did that day, which
Speaker 2: was start arguing with the stranger on the internet and
Speaker 2: then called her called her names because she was making
Speaker 2: other people feel But I didn't call her names, but
Speaker 2: I probably did a little bit.
Speaker 3: Kelly, you're gonna get canceled.
Speaker 1: Someone's gonna listen to this and be like, I thought
Speaker 1: that was her.
Speaker 2: I thought I recognized her pop picture and her name.
Speaker 2: I'm scared by it. Don't shame other women about breastfeeding.
Speaker 2: I will shame you for breastfeeding then.
Speaker 3: And that's the other thing about the breastfeeding thing, Like
Speaker 3: everyone's like breast is best like and you see the
Speaker 3: Likectatian consultants who are as saints, and I get it,
Speaker 3: and I get it, but it's like, believe me, in
Speaker 3: my bones, I know that breast is best. Yeah, I
Speaker 3: fucking know. I'm actually not naive.
Speaker 2: Like so it's not brand neuine, it's not.
Speaker 3: New information, I know. So you telling me that actually
Speaker 3: just confirms that any thought I had about like yeah,
Speaker 3: but maybe this is making me really struggle and I'm
Speaker 3: not okay and I'm an insane person and I can't
Speaker 3: have a social life and I.
Speaker 2: Can't work, and my boobs hurt, I keep getting messed outs.
Speaker 2: Whatever it is. You know what, if you really want
Speaker 2: to start arguing about what is best for the baby,
Speaker 2: vaginal birth is without an EPI, yeah, probably arguably it
Speaker 2: could be the best. You know what, I'm not doing that,
Speaker 2: no introest. I would not, no, unless it was I
Speaker 2: had to.
Speaker 3: Oh sorry, we're saying it in the company of miss
Speaker 3: miss Home Bertha Miss home.
Speaker 1: Birth didn't get across the line. No, but you're.
Speaker 3: Still laboring without paint relief.
Speaker 4: I'm like, yeah, I just enjoyed it, which I know
Speaker 4: sounds crazy, and I don't want to get into that
Speaker 4: conversation but I did enjoy it.
Speaker 3: I do think that there is this weird part of
Speaker 3: your brain that's activated towards like in pregnancy, and especially
Speaker 3: towards the end of pregnancy where you do go a
Speaker 3: bit earth mother and you go you go full. Maybe
Speaker 3: I have a really high pain threshold. And then I
Speaker 3: learned one centimeter, but I didn't that I.
Speaker 2: Absolutely did not contraction that I have the least amount
Speaker 2: of pain. But I also think everyone is so different.
Speaker 2: Like I have a girlfriend that genuinely didn't think it
Speaker 2: was that bad.
Speaker 1: Oh, I think I do have.
Speaker 4: A high pain through because I had shingles the other
Speaker 4: day and I was like out looking at houses being.
Speaker 1: Like, oh my god, this is quite painful, and.
Speaker 4: It's that is meant to be really paying. It wasn't
Speaker 4: just the laboring like it's been confired.
Speaker 3: Oh my god.
Speaker 5: You know what.
Speaker 2: Actually, I had a procedure done where I had canuless
Speaker 2: put in my face also as a needle frobe sleigh
Speaker 2: that I took pay.
Speaker 3: Okay, I thought that when I saw you getting a
Speaker 3: hate needles and that needle is near your eye.
Speaker 2: I've never had the gas before, so I didn't know
Speaker 2: what to do. That poor lady, how did she not
Speaker 2: lose her shit? Laughing at it makes you.
Speaker 3: High or drunk. I didn't take it. I don't mind it.
Speaker 4: When I was like super pregnant and had the compacted bow, you.
Speaker 1: Know, like, oh, I mean the.
Speaker 2: Time that you ended up in hospital, Like what a
Speaker 2: delicate way to say that you were literally full of
Speaker 2: shit and doctor Matt he just had to help you.
Speaker 1: Can I tell you this?
Speaker 4: They took me up to the delivery suite or whatever
Speaker 4: because they didn't know what was going on. And I
Speaker 4: was sucking on this thing for so long because I
Speaker 4: was in so much pain. It's super painful. And Charlie
Speaker 4: liked said to the midwives like, hey, is it okay that,
Speaker 4: like she's sucking for the baby, and they're like, oh,
Speaker 4: it's been on oxygen for ages, there's no gas.
Speaker 2: And I was like, it's just like I was literally
Speaker 2: he told me that, and I.
Speaker 3: Was like, bitches, it's like, also, don't tell me like placebo,
Speaker 3: like let me enjoy this.
Speaker 1: I have no idea.
Speaker 4: He told me months old, months after and a hind man,
Speaker 4: I mean, I get it, but like I wasn't a.
Speaker 3: Lot of pain too.
Speaker 1: It's really it's really.
Speaker 2: Good but placebo effect. I think that's how I did
Speaker 2: the needles in the face because the gas. I wasn't
Speaker 2: sucky enough to do much, but it was such a
Speaker 2: distraction and I couldn't see it. Even though I was
Speaker 2: filming myself, I couldn't see it. And I was just
Speaker 2: like yabbering away asking her odd questions, and yeah, I
Speaker 2: think it was just destruction so very sam.
Speaker 4: I forgot we had the gas during the home birth,
Speaker 4: and you know, like in the days after birth, like
Speaker 4: the midwife's checking with me, like how's your mental health?
Speaker 1: Like are you you know, you have like a.
Speaker 4: Bit of a baby blues moment and mine latched onto
Speaker 4: the berth for like a hot minute and she was like,
Speaker 4: you know, how are you feeling about the birth? And
Speaker 4: I'm like I just keep like replying the fact that
Speaker 4: we didn't use the.
Speaker 1: Gas, like how do I use the gas? And she
Speaker 1: was like, key, I cannot stress this enough. It wouldn't
Speaker 1: have made a difference, would.
Speaker 2: Not have opened enough to let yeah evenly like you oh, anyway.
Speaker 3: But I think it's such a normal thing with birth
Speaker 3: that you convinced.
Speaker 2: Yourself it was something you did.
Speaker 1: So yeah, And my.
Speaker 3: Big thing is and I think I told you this key,
Speaker 3: this was my theory about your first birth, Like I've
Speaker 3: imposed my own theory to you.
Speaker 2: Did you talk about it with your psychologist?
Speaker 3: Yes? So there was a storm and my water broke,
Speaker 3: and apparently a midwife told me afterwards that something with
Speaker 3: the drop in barometric pressure can rupture waters and so
Speaker 3: a lot of women go into labor when there's a storm, right,
Speaker 3: But I convinced myself. I was like, so what happened
Speaker 3: was my waters broke before they should have and that's
Speaker 3: why Matilda flopped into the wrong position, and that's why
Speaker 3: I didn't fully dilate, and that's why my birth was awful.
Speaker 2: And yeah, I ended up weather's fault if you think
Speaker 2: about it.
Speaker 3: Yes, But then I'm like, oh, it was the fact
Speaker 3: that I got dural. Then I'm like it didn't even
Speaker 3: freaking work. And then I'm like, was I pushing properly?
Speaker 3: Like all of that share goes through your head and
Speaker 3: you convince yourself that like it was actually your fault, which.
Speaker 4: Is just because you like, you find a reason like, well,
Speaker 4: that has to be my fault, and it's like yeah,
Speaker 4: but you can't control the fuck and wear.
Speaker 3: That and so yeah, yeah, yeah, and some just happens
Speaker 3: and it's okay, yeah.
Speaker 1: And it is okay.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Anyway, let's wrap this up because we, the three of us,
Speaker 2: could probably just keep here. We could Birth Stories. Don't
Speaker 2: tempt this, because we will. I'll go out get us
Speaker 2: the bottle of water for it. We'll just sit around
Speaker 2: and thank you so much Claire for oh please any time.
Speaker 3: I love this show so much. I'm just anyone who
Speaker 3: will listen. I'm like, here's a podcast, here go, here go.
Speaker 3: I just I think it's genuinely so important. We'll have
Speaker 3: mums being.
Speaker 2: Honest, we hope. So recommendations, Kyri Cells, what have you got?
Speaker 4: I wanted to recommend my breast pump this week. It
Speaker 4: is the Licevo wearable breast pump. Look, it is not cheap,
Speaker 4: so I realize it is hard times at the moment.
Speaker 4: I was actually gifted this, So it just depends where
Speaker 4: you're out and how much money you want to spend
Speaker 4: on a breast pump. This is just over five hundred dollars.
Speaker 4: But when I was out the other night, my sister
Speaker 4: in law borrowed it because we both needed to pump
Speaker 4: and dump at the hens and she commented about how
Speaker 4: good it was. She was like, oh my god, I
Speaker 4: think I'm gonna have to get this pump because she
Speaker 4: said it was just the same as the.
Speaker 1: Baby being on.
Speaker 4: And it isn't super loud like when we were out
Speaker 4: you could not hear it at all. And it's super comfy.
Speaker 4: It's just really good, easy to use, easy to dissemble
Speaker 4: and clean, and comes in like a really cute little
Speaker 4: leather pouch. It's just great and I can't recommend it enough.
Speaker 4: I had a really shitty pump the first time around,
Speaker 4: so my pumping experience, I was very scared and hesitant
Speaker 4: to start pumping this time around, and it has made
Speaker 4: the biggest difference. So if you're looking for a great pump,
Speaker 4: highly recommend the lice Evo.
Speaker 2: I've got a rogue recommendation today, but it's the hydro
Speaker 2: Mamma by Minni and Me. It's basically just like an
Speaker 2: electrolyte sachet that you pop in your water. My favorite
Speaker 2: is the cola. It tastes like post mix from the
Speaker 2: movies that's watered down a little bit, which is so yummy.
Speaker 2: I need to have a lot of salt in my
Speaker 2: diet and the electrolytes. Whenever I haven't had this for
Speaker 2: a few days, I notice it. I get dizzy, I
Speaker 2: get vertigo, I get stomach cramps. It is so good
Speaker 2: and they've got so many different yummy flavors. It's also
Speaker 2: perfect to have on hand even if you don't need
Speaker 2: it on the rag because it is quite expensive as well,
Speaker 2: but to have on hand for people, because it's good
Speaker 2: for kids as well, if you've got gastro in the house,
Speaker 2: or just anything where you're not having enough fluids, if
Speaker 2: you're sick, if you're pregnant and sick, this really icy
Speaker 2: when you're vomiting in the first trimestol throughout your pregnancy.
Speaker 2: Holly duly, it would be delicious.
Speaker 4: I actually use this for my pregnancy, so I second that.
Speaker 4: And you can buy like a mixed flavor the first
Speaker 4: time around, so that you can tie all the flavors
Speaker 4: to figure out which.
Speaker 1: One you like.
Speaker 4: That one's your face and I really liked the was
Speaker 4: it pomegranate?
Speaker 1: The purple one?
Speaker 2: Oh yes, yum yummy.
Speaker 1: That one was so good.
Speaker 2: And you can turn them into icy poles anyway. They're
Speaker 2: just very multi use. Absolutely love them. But on that note,
Speaker 2: this episode has been going for far too long, but
Speaker 2: hopefully you've really enjoyed it. Key's got another shitty happy
Speaker 2: to change. So we are going to love you and
Speaker 2: leave you, and the only thing we're going to say
Speaker 2: is make sure you're following us and the episode production.
Speaker 2: Thank you Maddie, Thank you shitters.
Speaker 1: Bye bye.