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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Mom and Mia out Loud. It's

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Speaker 2: what women are actually talking about on Wednesday, the twenty

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Speaker 2: first of January. Oh, I wonder what women are talking

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Speaker 2: about on Wednesday, the twenty first of January.

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Speaker 3: I'm Holly Wayne Wright, I'm Amelia Laster, and I'm Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 2: And you'll be very surprised to hear that on our

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Speaker 2: agenda for today, the Beckhams. That is one of the things.

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Speaker 2: If you are an Out Louder subscriber, and increasingly many

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Speaker 2: of you are, you will have heard our episode yesterday

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Speaker 2: with Mia Friedman where we had an emergency meeting and

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Speaker 2: unpacked lots of beckham.

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Speaker 3: We decided how we needed to show it was go

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Speaker 3: line by line analysis, get our red pens out, discuss Holly,

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Speaker 3: you couldn't even read a full sentence without stopping and

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Speaker 3: providing commentary. You got in trouble. It was Look, it

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Speaker 3: was very meaty and a lot of.

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Speaker 2: Fun, and yet the fallout continues. So we will be

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Speaker 2: unpacking that today, including how normal is it to trademark

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Speaker 2: your baby's name, whether this is the end of boy

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Speaker 2: mum culture, and an update on that wedding dance.

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Speaker 1: Plus is every forty somethings must have accessory a twenty

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Speaker 1: something friend. I want to talk about age gap friendships

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Speaker 1: and why they still feel a little bit taboo.

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Speaker 3: And shark attacks. You've probably seen the headlines over the

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Speaker 3: last few days. We discuss what specifically is going on

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Speaker 3: and if we are kidding ourselves about the element of

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Speaker 3: risk when we're entering the water.

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Speaker 2: But first, Jesse Stevens, in case.

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Speaker 3: You missed it, did we see Naomi Osaka, former champion

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Speaker 3: of the Australian Open. Did we say what she wore

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Speaker 3: to her match?

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Speaker 2: Holli mokes. I am not a big tennis person. You are.

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Speaker 2: You are a tennis correspondent on out loud. Regular outlouders

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Speaker 2: want to But that got my attention and made me go, oh,

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Speaker 2: I believe there's a tennis tournament going on.

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Speaker 3: There is, and there's been lots of chatter about fashion

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Speaker 3: at the Australian Open in particular, and what O'saka wore

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Speaker 3: has been called the boldest fashion choice in tennis history.

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Speaker 4: Do you agree with that?

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Speaker 3: I do, and I think it's a big call though,

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Speaker 3: because look at Serena and Venus like they have been

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Speaker 3: pioneers when it comes to what you wear on the court.

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Speaker 2: Is it right?

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Speaker 4: Though?

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Speaker 2: That I don't think I've seen before, but again I

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Speaker 2: might not have been watching like a sort of catwalk

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Speaker 2: entrance like that where you're wearing an outfit that then

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Speaker 2: you take off to play.

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Speaker 4: So she did take it off? Can we describe it?

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Speaker 3: Yes? So, Holly, you're right about that. I can't remember

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Speaker 3: either anything like this because o'saka came as a jellyfish

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Speaker 3: and it was iconic. So she walks into rod Lava

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Speaker 3: Arena and she is wearing wide legged trousers, she's wearing

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Speaker 3: a wide brimmed hat with a veil.

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Speaker 2: Just parents really played tennis in any of those.

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Speaker 3: Who exactly right? This entrance was just stunning. And if

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Speaker 3: you wondering why Maya is late to work today, she's

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Speaker 3: at Zara asking if they've got any parasols, which she

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Speaker 3: would like, gree and a jellyfish dress exactly. She's like,

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Speaker 3: jellyfish are it? And of course, like it's not unheard

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Speaker 3: of for there to be a statement, like a lot

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Speaker 3: of female tennis players have statement jewelry. You know, they've

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Speaker 3: worn lacey dresses or jumpsuits that kind of thing. Venus

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Speaker 3: Williams once wore like a mule and rouge inspired almost

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Speaker 3: like lingerie look from her brand. So the connection between

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Speaker 3: fashion and tennis exists, but this was next level. So

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Speaker 3: what does it mean?

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Speaker 2: I heard that the butterfly was very symbolic for this

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Speaker 2: particular tournament yep. And is that because Naomi Osaka won

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Speaker 2: it a few years ago twenty twenty one yep, and

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Speaker 2: a butterfly blessed her in that year? Is that right?

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Speaker 3: Yes? So what happened when she was playing? Yes, that

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Speaker 3: was a year she won. And there are these pictures

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Speaker 3: you'll remember them if you go back and google them

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Speaker 3: of this butterfly like sitting on her face and she

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Speaker 3: paused the match and she took the butterfly and kind

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Speaker 3: of had it on her hand and just let the

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Speaker 3: butterfly fly off.

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Speaker 2: That is pretty amazing.

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Speaker 3: It was amazing. And one of the fashion designers who

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Speaker 3: worked on this look then did this whole inspired range

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Speaker 3: and it was about it was jellyfish, but it was

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Speaker 3: inspired from that butterfly moment.

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Speaker 2: The jellyfish were also at the winning tournament.

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Speaker 3: She didn't know, and Osaka didn't have a jellyfish on

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Speaker 3: her face. That would have been so surprising.

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Speaker 2: It would have been very aussy to have a jellyfish

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Speaker 2: on your face.

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Speaker 4: She says.

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Speaker 1: The jellyfish is inspired by her reading a book to

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Speaker 1: her daughter and her daughter loving jellyfish.

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Speaker 3: And the reason I love this so much is that

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Speaker 3: I think, if you just turn on the tennis it's

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Speaker 3: on in the background, just hear the whack and the

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Speaker 3: strength and the like fierceness of that sport. But the

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Speaker 3: butterfly and the jellyfish, to me, represents like the grace

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Speaker 3: and the precision and just the incredible skill that these

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Speaker 3: athletes have. And so for her to walk in as

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Speaker 3: this jellyfish, I just think it's a really I mean,

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Speaker 3: she won the match, and I just think that that

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Speaker 3: vibe must be very good for your headspace.

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Speaker 2: One final question on this, do you think we are

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Speaker 2: going to start seeing these kind of catwalk entrances more often?

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Speaker 2: Because we've talked a lot about how tennis, like old sports,

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Speaker 2: is in a battle for retention, is in a battle

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Speaker 2: for viral moments, is in a battle to make it

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Speaker 2: to our feeds. Do you think that people coming out

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Speaker 2: in an outfit and then the reveal of the Noomon

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Speaker 2: zip in. The outfit is going to become more and

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Speaker 2: more of a thing.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and I think it's really good for designers and

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Speaker 3: a lot of players as well. Their connection with designers

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Speaker 3: is very strong. They work really closely with like a

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Speaker 3: Nike or whatever.

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Speaker 1: We should say that Naomi herself co designed this with

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Speaker 1: the designers at Nike. And I have a Megan connection

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Speaker 1: for you, Holly exciting, which is that on with Love Megan,

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Speaker 1: which I watched the complete latest season of Naomi Osaka

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Speaker 1: appears as a guest in one of the epsies and

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Speaker 1: she mentions as they are making some kind of pastry

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Speaker 1: or doing some sort.

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Speaker 4: Of craft that part of what she loves.

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Speaker 1: About working with Nike is that they let her design

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Speaker 1: stuff herself.

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Speaker 3: Yeah right, Okay, so I reckon that from some players,

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Speaker 3: the stylish ones, we are going to see lots of

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Speaker 3: moments like like this where we're getting all the pictures

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Speaker 3: of them in their fancy outfits. And I guess parasols back.

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Speaker 2: Well, and parasols are very sensible, very unsafe, sensible, no question,

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Speaker 2: in our harsh climate.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Go, And we should mention that Naomi is Japanese and

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Speaker 1: East Asia loves a parasol always has.

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Speaker 3: That's such beautiful skin.

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Speaker 4: It's time that they come across to the west.

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Speaker 3: The New York Times, the BBC, CNN. Australia's recent spate

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Speaker 3: of shark attacks are being reported all over the world.

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Speaker 3: There have been four shark attacks in forty eight hours

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Speaker 3: in New South Wales and add to that, a nineteen

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Speaker 3: year old Canadian woman was found dead this week on

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Speaker 3: the island of Gari surrounded by a pack of dingoes,

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Speaker 3: and a man was taken to hospital after a crocodile

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Speaker 3: attack in a creek in North Queensland. That is literally

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Speaker 3: all in the last few days. If you'd never been

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Speaker 3: to Australia, you would be forgiven for thinking it is

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Speaker 3: a very, very dangerous place. But I want to speak

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Speaker 3: specifically about the shark attacks today because a great deal

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Speaker 3: of expert commentary has been coming out about why now,

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Speaker 3: why we're not imagining it there has been an increase

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Speaker 3: in shark attacks. I first want to acknowledge, though, the

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Speaker 3: tragic and unthinkable devastation that a family in Sydney is

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Speaker 3: going through. That is the family of twelve year old

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Speaker 3: Nico Antik, who was jumping off a rock west of

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Speaker 3: Shark Beach on Sunday afternoon when he was bitten by

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Speaker 3: what is believed to be a large bull shark and hiss.

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Speaker 3: Heroic group of friends who his age jumped in and

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Speaker 3: pulled him from the water, but those injuries that he

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Speaker 3: sustained are reportedly so significant, with a close friend describing

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Speaker 3: this heartbreaking event as having led to the worst possible outcome.

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Speaker 3: I just think it's important to say this little boy

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Speaker 3: did nothing wrong, He did nothing irresponsible. So many kids

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Speaker 3: jump off those rocks, you would not think twice about it.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: In the following days there was a boy whose surfboard

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Speaker 3: was bitten. Then there was a man attacked at Manly

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Speaker 3: Beach he is in a critical condition, and another man

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Speaker 3: injured while surfing near Port Macquarie. So why is this?

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Speaker 3: Have we been hearing the word brackish water a lot lately?

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Speaker 2: We have well in relation to this.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, so brackish water means a mix of fresh

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Speaker 3: and salt water and it happens after heavy rainfall. Apparently

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Speaker 3: Sunday in Sydney was like the wettest day in nearly

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Speaker 3: forty years. Right, so much and our dated sewerage pipes

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Speaker 3: in Sydney mean that when that happens, you get fecal

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Speaker 3: matter raw sewage in the harbor, and I've never really

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Speaker 3: understood why that would impact sharks.

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Speaker 2: You are generally advised to not swim in the ocean

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Speaker 2: after a heavy rain. I thought, that's what I mean.

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Speaker 2: Sorry to finish that sentence. You are generally told not

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Speaker 2: to swim in the ocean after heavy rain because of

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Speaker 2: how dirty it is, because everything's flushed out into it.

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Speaker 2: But I also think, and we'll get to this, but

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Speaker 2: that when you live around water and you're in and

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Speaker 2: around it all the time, it's very easy to become

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Speaker 2: deaf to those kinds of warnings. And also the idea

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Speaker 2: of it being related to sharks is not something that

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Speaker 2: feels particularly common knowledge.

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Speaker 1: No. I grew up in Sydney, and there are so

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Speaker 1: many things that I am just learning this week, and

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Speaker 1: maybe that's my fault.

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Speaker 4: In fact, it probably is, But I.

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Speaker 1: Think we do need to increase our literacy sharks and

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Speaker 1: how to coexist with them, because things that I learned

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Speaker 1: this week included that if you really want to minimize

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Speaker 1: your risk, you shouldn't swim at dawn or dusk. Did

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Speaker 1: not know that you didn't know that I know.

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Speaker 4: I didn't know that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, maybe it's my fault, but these are

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Speaker 1: things I want this.

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Speaker 3: I think I know that from Jaws though the opening,

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Speaker 3: the opening scene is always.

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Speaker 2: The thing that's funny is I probably know a lot

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Speaker 2: of these things because as someone who didn't grow up

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Speaker 2: in Sydney, you had to learn them well. And also

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Speaker 2: we're obsessed with how sharky Australia. Like when I remember

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Speaker 2: being a kid and seeing pictures of Sydney, Australia and

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Speaker 2: people swimming in the beaches and like saying, why would

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Speaker 2: anybody go in that water? We know there are sharks

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Speaker 2: that order, So I think you're probably you have this

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Speaker 2: sort of almost macab obsession with it. That probably means

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Speaker 2: you consume a lot of related content.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that could be why.

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Speaker 1: Another thing I didn't know in Sydney there are harbor

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Speaker 1: beaches and ocean beaches. And while I knew that you

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Speaker 1: were not meant to swim at the harbor beaches after rain,

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Speaker 1: I did not now you were not meant to swim

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Speaker 1: at the ocean beaches.

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Speaker 3: I don't think I knew that either.

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Speaker 1: And another thing is Sydney's just way more rainy now

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Speaker 1: than it was thirty years ago. The water temperatures are higher,

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Speaker 1: and that's contributing also to the fact that there are

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Speaker 1: more sharks coming closer to humans.

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Speaker 4: In the water.

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Speaker 1: So what I think we need is just like we

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Speaker 1: have bushfire risk charts and signs all over the weather

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Speaker 1: report talks about UV indexes. I do think that we

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Speaker 1: have to figure out a way to be more aware

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Speaker 1: of how to coexist with sharks, and that might involve

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Speaker 1: shark risk warnings, signs on beaches, inclusions in weather reports

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Speaker 1: and risk assessments like the ones we have a bushfire.

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Speaker 3: That's really interesting because experts have said in the wake

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Speaker 3: of this that flyers were posted around swimming areas in

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Speaker 3: the aftermath of Sundays saying that there was an elevated

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Speaker 3: risk of bacteria. Right if I'm a kid, in fact,

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Speaker 3: even me like, would I take that is seriously? As

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Speaker 3: if I saw one that said something about the risk

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Speaker 3: of sharks and it didn't mention the risk of sharks

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Speaker 3: and it was this perfect storm in terms of its

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Speaker 3: school holidays. The wild weather also means that surfers jump

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Speaker 3: in the second the sun comes out. You go, oh,

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Speaker 3: we can get back to the bed, it hasn't been.

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Speaker 2: And I know this story sounds very Sydney centric at

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Speaker 2: this point, and I think one of the reasons why

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Speaker 2: this story has gone so global is because the concentration

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Speaker 2: of these attacks very quickly, but also where they are.

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Speaker 2: It's not usually what people think of happening in Sydney

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Speaker 2: for decades. People would say there have been no serious

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Speaker 2: shark attacks in Sydney for a long time, and that

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Speaker 2: clearly isn't true anymore. But you know, if you live

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Speaker 2: in WA, shark attacks are not uncommon if you live

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Speaker 2: in South Australia, and they do sometimes tend to go

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Speaker 2: in waves. What often happens is that there'll be a

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Speaker 2: spate of them. People are high per aware and then

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Speaker 2: you go back to your life because Australians are very,

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Speaker 2: very wedded to the coast, even if you don't. Obviously

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Speaker 2: the popular doesn't all live by the coast, but it

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Speaker 2: is coastally concentrated. And I was reading that the Surf

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Speaker 2: Life Saving Australia say that like sixteen million ossies go

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Speaker 2: to the beach a year. The percentage of our population

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Speaker 2: that is enormous. When that's something that you love doing

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Speaker 2: carries a risk, but that risk is tiny, and it

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Speaker 2: is tiny generally speaking. You make your own peace with that,

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Speaker 2: don't you in your own assessments with that. But the

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Speaker 2: thing is is if you don't have the information to

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Speaker 2: your point, Ameilia, about how risky it really is at

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Speaker 2: a given time next to another time, then you're not

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Speaker 2: making an informed choice.

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Speaker 1: No, And different states are dealing with that in different ways, like,

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Speaker 1: for instance, I learned this week that Queensland has year

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Speaker 1: round shark netting, and shark netting is a bit controversial,

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Speaker 1: but that's their way of dealing with it. Anecdotally, Westminsteronia

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Speaker 1: certainly seems to have a higher shark awareness and a

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Speaker 1: lot of the beaches, particularly in the southwest, do have

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Speaker 1: permanent science on the beach that say.

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Speaker 4: There is shark activity here.

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Speaker 1: So it is a matter of adjusting to a new reality,

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Speaker 1: like the temperature is changing, the climate is changing. Maybe

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Speaker 1: Sydney does need to look into those kinds of measures.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the literacy point is a really pertinent

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Speaker 3: one because even in North Queensland, your knowledge of crocodiles

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Speaker 3: is huge.

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Speaker 4: Because it.

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Speaker 2: Is a campaign. You'll see TV adverts, you'll see newspaper ads,

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Speaker 2: it's everywhere particular times of year. To be fair, there

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Speaker 2: is a higher risk in many ways living in that

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Speaker 2: part of the country with a proliferation of crocodiles.

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Speaker 3: To your point, Amelia, I agree about the Wa thing.

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Speaker 3: I think that if you live close to a beach

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Speaker 3: in Wa, your knowledge is just so much greater, and

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Speaker 3: so with all these people. You know, there's a lot

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Speaker 3: of tourists and stuff in Sydney as well who are

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Speaker 3: jumping in the water. I think it's a really good

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Speaker 3: point that the communication of this kind of stuff could

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Speaker 3: be improved, and I wish the conversation was going there

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Speaker 3: rather than in the direction. Inevitably you've got Tony Abbott

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Speaker 3: talking about shark culling.

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Speaker 2: No experts think that's going to make a deal exactly exactly,

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Speaker 2: and very few experts think that would make any difference

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Speaker 2: at all, because it's not really about shark numbers, it's

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Speaker 2: about shark activity. With all the things that you just

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Speaker 2: said about the amount of conditions, the kind of sharks. Again,

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Speaker 2: these seem to be proliferation of bull sharks. They generally

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Speaker 2: often live in rivers, they come out. There's a lot

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Speaker 2: of science here. It's not just like there are more

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Speaker 2: sharks kill the sharks. It doesn't seem to be that

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Speaker 2: at all. But I think to the point of why

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Speaker 2: this grabs our imagination so much, is that because there

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Speaker 2: have been a lot of drownings in Australia this year.

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Speaker 2: I think thirty three deaths so far this summer of

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Speaker 2: drownings on beaches around beaches in Australia. That is a

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Speaker 2: much higher casualty activity. And being for people to be

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Speaker 2: water smart in all kinds of ways is but you

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Speaker 2: cannot overstate the trauma of these kind of incidents on

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Speaker 2: the people involved in them, the people who attend to them,

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Speaker 2: the amazing stories we've been hearing this week about friends

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Speaker 2: and family and surfers who've been brave enough to go

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Speaker 2: in and pull people out. Also the ambulance workers who've

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Speaker 2: done these amazing things like in the middle of a

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Speaker 2: journey to hospitals stop and get more blood on board.

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Speaker 2: I've heard that being described like an F one pit

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Speaker 2: stop like to try and get enough blood into these victims.

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Speaker 2: And the trauma for everybody involved is enormous. Is it

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Speaker 2: very distressing events.

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Speaker 1: And I think the good news is though that we

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Speaker 1: can get their own awareness just like I'm astonished by

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Speaker 1: how much Australians know about sun safety and awareness compared

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Speaker 1: with anyone else in the world, in part because we

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Speaker 1: do have very high rates of skin cancer and we've

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Speaker 1: decided to address that and tackle that. We all know

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Speaker 1: how SBF works, how UV indexes work. Most other countries

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Speaker 1: don't have that kind of information, so we can do

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Speaker 1: the same thing for sharks.

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Speaker 2: After the break. Yes, we are talking about the biggest

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Speaker 2: pop culture story of perhaps the decade. Who knows, yes,

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Speaker 2: is the Beckham family feud. We're going to talk about

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Speaker 2: the Beckhams, my friends, because how could we not. I

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Speaker 2: can't remember the last time a pop culture story seized everybody.

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Speaker 2: I know it's only been twenty four hours, but group

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Speaker 2: chats of mine that have been dormant for years have

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Speaker 2: sucked up in this last few hours.

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Speaker 3: You think that that is because everyone is projecting their

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Speaker 3: own values, their own relationship with their in laws, their

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Speaker 3: own life stage onto this. Is there something kind of

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Speaker 3: very almost relatable about it?

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Speaker 2: Yes, And also it's because we are very rarely handed

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Speaker 2: by the horse from the horse's mouth, the facts or

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Speaker 2: their version of the facts of a story that has

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Speaker 2: been bubbling away and everybody's been gossiping about it for

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Speaker 2: a long time, so I think, yes, family estrangement, clashes

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Speaker 2: between mother in laws and daughter in laws, all of

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Speaker 2: that stuff is stuff we're all very primed for. But

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Speaker 2: we have been handed a rich text, as we discussed

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Speaker 2: yesterday to dissect.

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Speaker 1: And the other thing is that Beckham awareness is really

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Speaker 1: high because of the Netflix documentaries which went global. The

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Speaker 1: Beckhams used to be much more of a anglophone country obsession,

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Speaker 1: but the Netflix shows really sent them into the global stratosphere.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there are different levels.

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Speaker 3: So that would be one of the most famous families

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Speaker 3: in the world.

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Speaker 2: Unquestionably and for a variety of reasons, right spice, girls, football,

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Speaker 2: et cetera. But this story is being seen in very

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Speaker 2: different ways, and I think we need to talk about

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Speaker 2: that off the bat. For some people, it's sport, to

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Speaker 2: be honest, and if you're interested in popular culture and

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Speaker 2: celebrity culture, and that does inform an enormous amount of

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Speaker 2: our lives to what we buy and you know, what

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Speaker 2: we watch and how we feel about things. This does

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Speaker 2: feel a bit like the Super Bowl or the Grand

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Speaker 2: Final or something, so we are looking at it a

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Speaker 2: bit like sport. But then, of course, also it's being

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Speaker 2: seen as what it actually is, which is a very human,

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Speaker 2: very sad family drama, and a lot of people who

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Speaker 2: have rifts with their families feel very sensitive about this story.

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Speaker 2: I think it's a bit of both, to be honest,

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Speaker 2: because as I said on yesterday's subs episode, this is

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Speaker 2: a very sad episode for the Beckhams, but it didn't

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Speaker 2: need to be played out in public the way that

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Speaker 2: it has. And I think that there is no question

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Speaker 2: that when Brooklyn Beckham loaded those stories to his feed,

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Speaker 2: and I can only imagine the deep breath he took

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Speaker 2: before he posted share on those that this was going

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Speaker 2: to happen, I don't think anyone could be like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I didn't expect that kind of reaction. Anyway, we are

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Speaker 2: going to address a couple of things, because I think

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Speaker 2: what everybody is talking about out there is whose side

388
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Speaker 2: are you on, Who's to blame? Where should my sympathy go?

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Speaker 2: And I don't think there's an easy answer to that question,

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Speaker 2: but we're going to present some of the latest developments

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Speaker 2: that might assist. Yeah, First of all, do we think

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Speaker 2: that this is kind of the end of the argument

393
00:19:55,554 --> 00:19:58,914
Speaker 2: about kids as brands? I would love to know that.

394
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Speaker 2: We have talked about said it on the sub show.

395
00:20:01,554 --> 00:20:04,714
Speaker 2: We have talked about it before, how Brooklyn Beckham was

396
00:20:04,834 --> 00:20:07,514
Speaker 2: a brand before he was born. The pictures his mother

397
00:20:07,554 --> 00:20:10,194
Speaker 2: pregnant with him was sold, the baby pictures were sold,

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Speaker 2: christening pictures were sold, the wedding pictures were sold. His

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Speaker 2: name was copyrighted. We're going to get to that in

400
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Speaker 2: a minute. He has been a brand since before he

401
00:20:17,754 --> 00:20:22,273
Speaker 2: was born. That has brought him enormous advantage, without question,

402
00:20:22,674 --> 00:20:26,793
Speaker 2: in terms of finance and the lifestyle, but also a

403
00:20:26,794 --> 00:20:29,594
Speaker 2: whole lot of heartache. There's always been an argument about

404
00:20:29,594 --> 00:20:31,714
Speaker 2: whether or not this is good or bad. Do you

405
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Speaker 2: think this.

406
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Speaker 3: Closes that book when we say it's brought him enormous

407
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Speaker 3: advantage and Maya talked about that in yesterday's Subscribe episode. Yes,

408
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Speaker 3: but isn't some of it his Like as you say

409
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Speaker 3: he was commodified as a.

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Speaker 2: Fetus, he was earning that money.

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Speaker 3: He was earning that money, right, So it's kind of like,

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00:20:51,634 --> 00:20:54,434
Speaker 3: look at everything your parents gave you, Well, they didn't

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Speaker 3: just give it to you like you were part of

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Speaker 3: the brand from before you were born. And I wonder

415
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Speaker 3: if this is a reckoning for family brands. I don't

416
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Speaker 3: think anyone in this story is evil, and I don't

417
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Speaker 3: think that casting Victoria Beckham and David Beckham as narcissist

418
00:21:13,274 --> 00:21:18,074
Speaker 3: is necessarily very helpful, because thirty years ago they had

419
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Speaker 3: no idea. They had no idea that this is what

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00:21:21,434 --> 00:21:25,994
Speaker 3: celebrity would become, or that that brand would be central

421
00:21:26,194 --> 00:21:32,354
Speaker 3: to selling their products. And therefore their Instagram feed, which

422
00:21:32,394 --> 00:21:34,274
Speaker 3: is pictures of their family and I love you Cruse,

423
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Speaker 3: and I love you Blah, and I love you Harper

424
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Speaker 3: and all that kind of stuff, people are invested in that,

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Speaker 3: and therefore they go on by eyeliners like I don't

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Speaker 3: think that was necessarily the strategy during conception.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't the strategy during conception, but it became the

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Speaker 1: strategy to me. The most damning part of what he

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Speaker 1: posted was not even about the dance, although I'm.

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Speaker 4: To say that we'll get to the dance in a bit.

431
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Speaker 1: The most galling part of what Brooklyn wrote about to

432
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Speaker 1: me was when he came back for David's birthday party

433
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Speaker 1: and he and Nicola wanted to see David, but they

434
00:22:14,514 --> 00:22:17,594
Speaker 1: kept being told, you can't see him unless you come

435
00:22:17,714 --> 00:22:20,594
Speaker 1: and see him at his party, where there are cameras

436
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Speaker 1: where they're going to post it on Instagram, and that

437
00:22:24,394 --> 00:22:27,594
Speaker 1: just seemed so sad. Yeah, to put my thumb on

438
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Speaker 1: the scale, that's sad that he can't be bothered to

439
00:22:30,474 --> 00:22:33,874
Speaker 1: see them unless there's a camera they're documenting it for Instagram.

440
00:22:34,234 --> 00:22:36,954
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that rings true, right, Like we have seen

441
00:22:37,594 --> 00:22:41,273
Speaker 3: the way that they all engage on social media. And

442
00:22:41,954 --> 00:22:45,354
Speaker 3: Marina Hyde has written a great analysis about all of this,

443
00:22:45,554 --> 00:22:48,714
Speaker 3: and I think that it's particularly prominent because it's in

444
00:22:48,794 --> 00:22:52,033
Speaker 3: the context of the two documentaries being launched. The brand

445
00:22:52,074 --> 00:22:55,273
Speaker 3: has never been more important and more front and center.

446
00:22:55,954 --> 00:22:58,634
Speaker 3: And then I suppose the wedding disrupted that for a

447
00:22:58,714 --> 00:23:02,154
Speaker 3: number of reasons. And Brooklyn now has this insight into

448
00:23:02,154 --> 00:23:06,354
Speaker 3: how another family operates, and that other family isn't perfect,

449
00:23:06,354 --> 00:23:07,714
Speaker 3: and that other family normal.

450
00:23:08,434 --> 00:23:10,434
Speaker 2: We're not even a little bit normal. But I have

451
00:23:10,474 --> 00:23:13,834
Speaker 2: to keep remembering the family that he's joined. Yeah, yeah,

452
00:23:13,954 --> 00:23:16,754
Speaker 2: the one percent. These are the billionaires and they're maga

453
00:23:16,754 --> 00:23:17,714
Speaker 2: supporting billionaires.

454
00:23:17,754 --> 00:23:19,914
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not just the one percent, it's an American

455
00:23:19,954 --> 00:23:22,434
Speaker 1: one percent. And I think that's another key thread we've

456
00:23:22,434 --> 00:23:24,194
Speaker 1: got to bring up here, is that this is a

457
00:23:24,194 --> 00:23:26,314
Speaker 1: culture clash. And you talked a little bit about this.

458
00:23:26,394 --> 00:23:28,114
Speaker 2: I agree, but I have to say one more thing

459
00:23:28,194 --> 00:23:31,273
Speaker 2: about brands. Okay, you know yesterday I kept saying I

460
00:23:31,274 --> 00:23:34,274
Speaker 2: don't understand this bit about the right to his name. Yeah,

461
00:23:34,314 --> 00:23:37,033
Speaker 2: so there's been a bit more light shone on that today.

462
00:23:37,154 --> 00:23:37,354
Speaker 4: Right.

463
00:23:37,554 --> 00:23:42,314
Speaker 2: In December twenty sixteen, Victoria Beckham, via her business, trademarked

464
00:23:42,394 --> 00:23:45,194
Speaker 2: all the children's names. Right, so all the children's names

465
00:23:45,234 --> 00:23:48,394
Speaker 2: are trademarked under Victoria Beckham's business. Now that's not particularly

466
00:23:48,474 --> 00:23:50,434
Speaker 2: unusual for celebrities, which we'll talk about in a minute,

467
00:23:50,594 --> 00:23:53,914
Speaker 2: but apparently the expiry date for those, particularly in the

468
00:23:54,034 --> 00:23:56,954
Speaker 2: UK and the EU, is this year because they're ten

469
00:23:57,034 --> 00:23:59,714
Speaker 2: years long. So it gives you a little bit of

470
00:23:59,754 --> 00:24:03,314
Speaker 2: insight into what that I wanted rights to my name

471
00:24:03,594 --> 00:24:06,594
Speaker 2: and they wouldn't let me have it. Meant now, celebrities

472
00:24:06,674 --> 00:24:10,394
Speaker 2: often trademark their kids' names now, not only so that

473
00:24:10,474 --> 00:24:13,874
Speaker 2: they can launch fragrances and whatever, but so that other

474
00:24:13,954 --> 00:24:16,754
Speaker 2: people can't. So it's often seen as a defensive move.

475
00:24:16,834 --> 00:24:19,834
Speaker 2: So the Kardashian Jennas have trademarked all their kids' names.

476
00:24:19,874 --> 00:24:22,394
Speaker 2: Beyonce and jay Z have trademarked their kids' names. And

477
00:24:22,474 --> 00:24:24,793
Speaker 2: I'm sure, plenty of other celebrities who we don't know about.

478
00:24:25,154 --> 00:24:27,914
Speaker 2: And it can be obviously so that they can kind

479
00:24:27,954 --> 00:24:30,194
Speaker 2: of a they can profit, but also they can give

480
00:24:30,194 --> 00:24:32,274
Speaker 2: it to them and say, trademark your name, so you're

481
00:24:32,554 --> 00:24:35,154
Speaker 2: you make Brooklyn Beckham hot sauce and not some guy

482
00:24:35,194 --> 00:24:38,394
Speaker 2: down the road who's making Brooklyn Beckham hot sauce. But

483
00:24:38,554 --> 00:24:43,634
Speaker 2: also they say to defend them from fraud. So that's

484
00:24:43,714 --> 00:24:46,594
Speaker 2: really interesting because it does give us an insight into

485
00:24:46,634 --> 00:24:49,354
Speaker 2: why he went Brooklyn pelts Beckham so quickly, because that

486
00:24:49,514 --> 00:24:52,154
Speaker 2: is not trademarked, do you know what I mean? So

487
00:24:52,314 --> 00:24:55,554
Speaker 2: that's a really interesting insight. So do how do you

488
00:24:55,794 --> 00:24:58,874
Speaker 2: imagine how much that muddies the warders, the fact that

489
00:24:58,954 --> 00:25:02,313
Speaker 2: your name belongs to you and you are part of

490
00:25:02,354 --> 00:25:04,874
Speaker 2: this brand. And presumably they all have some kind of

491
00:25:04,954 --> 00:25:06,714
Speaker 2: arrangement where they get and you know, they get and

492
00:25:06,794 --> 00:25:08,754
Speaker 2: allow and whatever, and they'll get a certain amount of

493
00:25:08,754 --> 00:25:10,994
Speaker 2: support for their endeavors, whether it's a photography book or

494
00:25:11,034 --> 00:25:13,874
Speaker 2: a cookery show or a band cruises in a band

495
00:25:13,954 --> 00:25:16,634
Speaker 2: now they'll get a certain support from that. But your

496
00:25:16,754 --> 00:25:19,354
Speaker 2: name belongs to the business and not to you. Now

497
00:25:19,434 --> 00:25:22,234
Speaker 2: that must be a bit of a head fuck.

498
00:25:22,914 --> 00:25:27,994
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that must be really disturbing. And obviously he

499
00:25:28,114 --> 00:25:30,634
Speaker 3: feels whether or not you think this is the case,

500
00:25:30,674 --> 00:25:35,754
Speaker 3: he feels exploited, he feels taken advantage of, and he

501
00:25:35,914 --> 00:25:40,034
Speaker 3: has been working as part of that brand for his

502
00:25:40,114 --> 00:25:42,514
Speaker 3: whole life and he's been made a mockery of because

503
00:25:42,514 --> 00:25:44,594
Speaker 3: he's tried a lot of things, from photography to cooking

504
00:25:44,634 --> 00:25:47,594
Speaker 3: to all of that. Do you really have a choice?

505
00:25:47,634 --> 00:25:50,194
Speaker 3: Like he had a brand before he had a frontal lobe.

506
00:25:50,354 --> 00:25:54,754
Speaker 2: So back to America, Britain, Amelia, tell me your thoughts

507
00:25:54,794 --> 00:25:55,354
Speaker 2: about that.

508
00:25:55,634 --> 00:25:58,513
Speaker 1: Well, I don't think it's a coincidence that Megan and

509
00:25:58,634 --> 00:26:03,074
Speaker 1: Harry and Brooklyn and Nicola are both a British man

510
00:26:03,194 --> 00:26:06,474
Speaker 1: and an American woman, because what I see is at

511
00:26:06,514 --> 00:26:10,234
Speaker 1: the heart of this conflict in both cases is a

512
00:26:10,274 --> 00:26:14,994
Speaker 1: pool between American individualism and a British kind of idea

513
00:26:15,114 --> 00:26:17,834
Speaker 1: of keep calm and carry on, like Grin and Barrett,

514
00:26:17,914 --> 00:26:19,954
Speaker 1: like it's your family, what are you going to do? Yes,

515
00:26:20,114 --> 00:26:22,394
Speaker 1: look at the fact that in American culture there's so

516
00:26:22,514 --> 00:26:26,353
Speaker 1: many movies and comedic tropes centered around the idea of

517
00:26:26,954 --> 00:26:30,513
Speaker 1: coming back to see your original nuclear family, whether it

518
00:26:30,554 --> 00:26:34,074
Speaker 1: be for Thanksgiving or Christmas or some other milestone that's

519
00:26:34,114 --> 00:26:37,554
Speaker 1: depicted in American culture as a really jarring event. Oh,

520
00:26:37,594 --> 00:26:40,994
Speaker 1: I have to go and see my parents because it's Thanksgiving,

521
00:26:41,074 --> 00:26:43,634
Speaker 1: and then there'll be all these terrible things that happen

522
00:26:43,714 --> 00:26:45,874
Speaker 1: along the way because you don't see them very often.

523
00:26:45,874 --> 00:26:48,793
Speaker 1: You see them once a year. It's not The idea

524
00:26:48,834 --> 00:26:52,553
Speaker 1: in the US is that once you leave the parental

525
00:26:52,674 --> 00:26:55,354
Speaker 1: unit and go out in the world, you're kind of

526
00:26:55,394 --> 00:26:58,194
Speaker 1: done with that. Now you have to make yourself. It's

527
00:26:58,314 --> 00:26:58,874
Speaker 1: up to you.

528
00:26:58,994 --> 00:26:59,194
Speaker 4: Now.

529
00:26:59,434 --> 00:27:03,514
Speaker 3: Even the popularization of estrangement has been very US It's

530
00:27:03,554 --> 00:27:04,634
Speaker 3: come from there.

531
00:27:04,554 --> 00:27:06,834
Speaker 1: And some stats say that up to twenty five percent

532
00:27:06,874 --> 00:27:09,714
Speaker 1: of Americans are estranged from at least one family member.

533
00:27:09,914 --> 00:27:12,594
Speaker 1: I doubt those stats would be the same in the UK.

534
00:27:12,874 --> 00:27:15,634
Speaker 2: Rightly, Yes, I don't know. I have to admit I

535
00:27:15,674 --> 00:27:17,313
Speaker 2: don't know what the stats are in the UK. But

536
00:27:17,434 --> 00:27:21,314
Speaker 2: I think you absolutely struck on something there about that

537
00:27:21,954 --> 00:27:26,273
Speaker 2: individualism versus the suck it up narrative. Obviously this is

538
00:27:26,474 --> 00:27:30,034
Speaker 2: these are generalizations, but you'll see this cultural conversation play

539
00:27:30,074 --> 00:27:32,794
Speaker 2: out and lots of different groups. Actually have people been like, well,

540
00:27:32,794 --> 00:27:35,394
Speaker 2: of course your mom's annoying, and of course she doesn't

541
00:27:35,394 --> 00:27:37,194
Speaker 2: get on with your wife, and of course you're going

542
00:27:37,274 --> 00:27:38,874
Speaker 2: to fight about that, and da da da da dah,

543
00:27:39,074 --> 00:27:41,994
Speaker 2: like you just deal with it. And that is not

544
00:27:42,914 --> 00:27:45,234
Speaker 2: the American way. I'm sure it is since for some

545
00:27:45,354 --> 00:27:48,154
Speaker 2: cultures in America too. But and also we are not,

546
00:27:48,354 --> 00:27:52,194
Speaker 2: or we weren't. The therapization of everything is not part

547
00:27:52,234 --> 00:27:54,314
Speaker 2: of the British legs gone, which is why you see

548
00:27:54,354 --> 00:27:58,754
Speaker 2: a lot of mocking of Harry's new life and of

549
00:27:58,794 --> 00:28:03,554
Speaker 2: Brooklyn's new life from the British establishment because they're very like, boohoo,

550
00:28:03,714 --> 00:28:06,114
Speaker 2: poor you. You've realized your mom and dad fucked you up.

551
00:28:06,154 --> 00:28:08,234
Speaker 2: Well all mom and Dad's you're up. That's life, Get

552
00:28:08,314 --> 00:28:11,074
Speaker 2: over it. It's a very it's almost like a culture

553
00:28:11,114 --> 00:28:11,794
Speaker 2: war position.

554
00:28:12,154 --> 00:28:15,033
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're right that these are generalizations, but just

555
00:28:15,074 --> 00:28:18,074
Speaker 1: a cherry pick, like two different sort of key cultural

556
00:28:18,114 --> 00:28:20,554
Speaker 1: figures and what they say about each of the cultures.

557
00:28:20,954 --> 00:28:24,274
Speaker 1: Think about Bridget Jones and Carrie Bradshaw. These are two

558
00:28:24,354 --> 00:28:27,114
Speaker 1: fictional inventions that came about at the same time in

559
00:28:27,154 --> 00:28:30,994
Speaker 1: the nineteen nineties late nineteen nineties obviously then became.

560
00:28:30,874 --> 00:28:33,194
Speaker 4: Huge hits for their respective creators.

561
00:28:33,234 --> 00:28:38,034
Speaker 1: But Carrie Bradshaw, we know nothing about her nuclear family

562
00:28:38,274 --> 00:28:41,034
Speaker 1: absolutely nothing. She is this self made woman who are

563
00:28:41,274 --> 00:28:43,434
Speaker 1: as far as we're concerned. She arrived in New York

564
00:28:43,674 --> 00:28:47,274
Speaker 1: and then just that's when her life began. Bridget Jones,

565
00:28:47,274 --> 00:28:50,514
Speaker 1: the very first Bridget Jones movie, starts with her coming

566
00:28:50,554 --> 00:28:53,914
Speaker 1: home for Christmas, and it's not a There is tension,

567
00:28:54,154 --> 00:28:57,274
Speaker 1: but it's not a dramatic tension. It's a comedic tension,

568
00:28:57,354 --> 00:29:00,394
Speaker 1: like it's an ugly sweater party. Everyone's having a good time.

569
00:29:00,514 --> 00:29:03,234
Speaker 2: It's not like my mom triggers me. No, more like.

570
00:29:03,634 --> 00:29:06,754
Speaker 1: She's eye rolling. She's not triggering. So if you just

571
00:29:06,794 --> 00:29:10,234
Speaker 1: look at those two characters and what they represent about

572
00:29:10,234 --> 00:29:13,154
Speaker 1: the culture, it's something very different. And this idea that

573
00:29:13,234 --> 00:29:16,874
Speaker 1: in the US you have to make yourself now, that

574
00:29:17,074 --> 00:29:20,074
Speaker 1: is also a lie and a myth. The Peltzer's obviously

575
00:29:20,154 --> 00:29:25,274
Speaker 1: Nikola Peltz is a billionaire because her is a billionaire.

576
00:29:25,674 --> 00:29:26,994
Speaker 4: I'm talking about.

577
00:29:26,674 --> 00:29:29,234
Speaker 1: The way that they would tell the story to themselves

578
00:29:29,314 --> 00:29:30,194
Speaker 1: rather than the reality.

579
00:29:30,274 --> 00:29:34,954
Speaker 3: I think that also informs the response of the House

580
00:29:34,994 --> 00:29:38,194
Speaker 3: of Beckham because they are so steeped in British culture.

581
00:29:38,314 --> 00:29:42,714
Speaker 3: Right if they were Americans, would they speak very differently

582
00:29:42,754 --> 00:29:45,114
Speaker 3: and would their statement be very different.

583
00:29:45,194 --> 00:29:48,594
Speaker 2: Even think about what we were talking about Victoria Beckham's documentary.

584
00:29:48,634 --> 00:29:51,034
Speaker 2: Now we know there are many issues with that documentary.

585
00:29:51,034 --> 00:29:52,874
Speaker 2: It was self funded and self produced, and it was

586
00:29:52,914 --> 00:29:55,234
Speaker 2: basically an ad as you've said, Amelia for her fashion

587
00:29:55,274 --> 00:29:59,914
Speaker 2: and makeup, but also think of her discomfort when they

588
00:29:59,954 --> 00:30:02,194
Speaker 2: were trying to get her to talk about stuff like

589
00:30:02,514 --> 00:30:06,554
Speaker 2: her eating disorder, wait, her self esteem issues, have a

590
00:30:06,554 --> 00:30:10,914
Speaker 2: nervous break, maybe your husband. She is English to her

591
00:30:11,074 --> 00:30:13,794
Speaker 2: core in that you could see that she would rather

592
00:30:13,954 --> 00:30:16,554
Speaker 2: die than have to put all that out on the table,

593
00:30:16,914 --> 00:30:19,594
Speaker 2: whereas everybody wanted to tell all from her. Now I'm

594
00:30:19,594 --> 00:30:22,234
Speaker 2: not when I say this, I'm not sort of valorizing

595
00:30:22,274 --> 00:30:24,834
Speaker 2: that at all. I think there's all kinds of deeply

596
00:30:24,874 --> 00:30:27,314
Speaker 2: repressive problems with it. But what I mean is, if

597
00:30:27,314 --> 00:30:30,914
Speaker 2: that was an American equivalent, imagine the spilling of the

598
00:30:30,914 --> 00:30:34,074
Speaker 2: guts like the Beckhams. Although we say that they share

599
00:30:34,154 --> 00:30:37,034
Speaker 2: all the time and they do, they are not a

600
00:30:37,074 --> 00:30:40,354
Speaker 2: spilling of the guts couple like both of those documentaries

601
00:30:40,394 --> 00:30:43,114
Speaker 2: were very very managed in that way, and I think

602
00:30:43,394 --> 00:30:46,554
Speaker 2: obviously for pr reasons, but also because she would feel

603
00:30:46,554 --> 00:30:48,594
Speaker 2: that was deeply broken. You could tell how much it

604
00:30:48,674 --> 00:30:51,914
Speaker 2: painted her to have to admit any vulnerability.

605
00:30:51,354 --> 00:30:54,274
Speaker 1: And also how important it was for both her and David.

606
00:30:54,474 --> 00:30:57,434
Speaker 1: The whole point of those two documentaries is to show

607
00:30:57,714 --> 00:31:00,914
Speaker 1: they've done all this and they've got a wonderful family life.

608
00:31:00,954 --> 00:31:03,194
Speaker 1: That was the whole point in both of them. Compare

609
00:31:03,194 --> 00:31:06,594
Speaker 1: the David back in documentary to another really big sports documentary,

610
00:31:06,594 --> 00:31:08,834
Speaker 1: The Last Year, which was the Last Dance that came

611
00:31:08,874 --> 00:31:12,834
Speaker 1: out in twenty twenty and was talking about the Chicago Bulls. Now,

612
00:31:12,954 --> 00:31:16,154
Speaker 1: I don't know anything about Michael Jordan's family. He's featured

613
00:31:16,154 --> 00:31:18,274
Speaker 1: in it. That's not the point of the documentary. The

614
00:31:18,314 --> 00:31:20,514
Speaker 1: point of that documentary is to show you how good

615
00:31:20,634 --> 00:31:23,914
Speaker 1: at sport Michael Jordan is. The point of the Beckham

616
00:31:23,954 --> 00:31:26,354
Speaker 1: documentary was not to show that. It was to show look,

617
00:31:26,394 --> 00:31:28,594
Speaker 1: you know, he's good at sport, but also look how

618
00:31:28,634 --> 00:31:30,674
Speaker 1: cozy his family life is and he makes meals for

619
00:31:30,794 --> 00:31:33,074
Speaker 1: his family and he loves cleaning the kitchen after everyone's

620
00:31:33,074 --> 00:31:35,914
Speaker 1: gone to bed. It's a very different ideal.

621
00:31:36,114 --> 00:31:39,594
Speaker 3: And they like to have a little dance in Victoria.

622
00:31:39,754 --> 00:31:45,354
Speaker 2: It's become a I want to lead me to Victoria

623
00:31:45,634 --> 00:31:48,554
Speaker 2: and the mother in law narrative because I've.

624
00:31:48,434 --> 00:31:51,434
Speaker 3: Heard rumors of nuzzling. Yes, so I've seen the word nuzzling.

625
00:31:52,114 --> 00:31:55,794
Speaker 2: It is true that perhaps the most explosive and certainly

626
00:31:55,834 --> 00:32:00,554
Speaker 2: the most embarrassing claims in yesterday's story dump from Bes

627
00:32:00,994 --> 00:32:03,834
Speaker 2: was no Brooks, which we should call him. He's not Bex.

628
00:32:03,874 --> 00:32:04,394
Speaker 2: There's only one.

629
00:32:04,754 --> 00:32:07,154
Speaker 3: You'll get a legal letter about trademarking.

630
00:32:06,714 --> 00:32:11,754
Speaker 2: Home very will about Brooklyn. Was the dance right? He

631
00:32:11,794 --> 00:32:14,194
Speaker 2: said that his mum danced on him at his wedding.

632
00:32:14,274 --> 00:32:17,394
Speaker 2: Now stuff has come out, but not that much stuff. No,

633
00:32:17,514 --> 00:32:18,834
Speaker 2: they will tell us some of the stuff.

634
00:32:19,194 --> 00:32:21,434
Speaker 3: I have just seen that there are reports that she

635
00:32:21,554 --> 00:32:24,914
Speaker 3: did nazzle into his neck during the dance. I have

636
00:32:24,994 --> 00:32:29,674
Speaker 3: also seen reports that the only people who have access

637
00:32:29,874 --> 00:32:33,394
Speaker 3: to that video are Nicola and Brooklyn definitely, which means

638
00:32:33,434 --> 00:32:35,994
Speaker 3: they hold all the cards. They can say anything is

639
00:32:35,994 --> 00:32:39,394
Speaker 3: on that video. So our wishes that that would be

640
00:32:39,474 --> 00:32:42,594
Speaker 3: published potentially, like I don't know if we're going to

641
00:32:42,674 --> 00:32:43,994
Speaker 3: get at There's been.

642
00:32:43,914 --> 00:32:46,394
Speaker 1: A couple of other small updates on the dance, if

643
00:32:46,434 --> 00:32:50,474
Speaker 1: I may. The first is that the partner of a

644
00:32:50,514 --> 00:32:54,914
Speaker 1: wedding guest was a British DJ. His partner posted on

645
00:32:54,954 --> 00:32:58,114
Speaker 1: Instagram in the last twenty four hours that it's true

646
00:32:58,354 --> 00:33:00,994
Speaker 1: what was said about the dance, and then he subsequently

647
00:33:01,034 --> 00:33:02,834
Speaker 1: took it down and said he needs to keep his mouth.

648
00:33:02,674 --> 00:33:05,034
Speaker 4: Shut, which was coupled with a picture of him with

649
00:33:05,074 --> 00:33:05,634
Speaker 4: no shirt on.

650
00:33:07,914 --> 00:33:10,554
Speaker 1: That's's moment of fame. And then the second update is

651
00:33:10,594 --> 00:33:13,954
Speaker 1: page six has two sources that have confirmed that the

652
00:33:13,994 --> 00:33:18,194
Speaker 1: story is also directionally accurate, though they have added the

653
00:33:18,234 --> 00:33:20,474
Speaker 1: caveat that it was not the first dance, It was

654
00:33:20,554 --> 00:33:22,954
Speaker 1: just one of the dancers at the wedding, which I

655
00:33:22,994 --> 00:33:25,994
Speaker 1: do think kind of exonerates Victoria a little bit. Also,

656
00:33:26,034 --> 00:33:28,634
Speaker 1: I just have to say, in defense of Victoria, she's

657
00:33:28,674 --> 00:33:31,594
Speaker 1: a tactile person. We see that in the documentary. She

658
00:33:31,634 --> 00:33:34,554
Speaker 1: loves rubbing people's backs. She also loves a dance. I

659
00:33:34,634 --> 00:33:36,274
Speaker 1: you know, I just I think if.

660
00:33:36,114 --> 00:33:39,274
Speaker 2: It was as straightforward as we're imagining, which is that

661
00:33:39,354 --> 00:33:41,954
Speaker 2: she like basically elbows Nicola out of the way in

662
00:33:41,994 --> 00:33:44,354
Speaker 2: the romantic first dance and starts tworking on him as

663
00:33:44,354 --> 00:33:47,314
Speaker 2: me I suggests. Yes, say, if it was that, we

664
00:33:47,394 --> 00:33:49,834
Speaker 2: would have known by now, right, because there were five

665
00:33:50,434 --> 00:33:53,314
Speaker 2: hundred people at that play. I think it's much more

666
00:33:53,314 --> 00:33:56,394
Speaker 2: of a degree of judgment about what or not it

667
00:33:56,434 --> 00:33:57,234
Speaker 2: was inappropriate, And.

668
00:33:57,194 --> 00:34:00,194
Speaker 1: It's at that point in the wedding when everyone is

669
00:34:00,274 --> 00:34:03,074
Speaker 1: kind of moved away from their assigned seating because no

670
00:34:03,154 --> 00:34:05,474
Speaker 1: one wants to sit with the assigned seating the whole evening.

671
00:34:05,594 --> 00:34:08,074
Speaker 1: And maybe you've gone to the dessert bar, and maybe

672
00:34:08,074 --> 00:34:10,674
Speaker 1: you've gone outside for a little bit, Like I just

673
00:34:10,714 --> 00:34:13,994
Speaker 1: think everyone's trickling around. I don't think everyone's at their seat.

674
00:34:14,034 --> 00:34:15,914
Speaker 1: And then it's the first dance that's important.

675
00:34:15,954 --> 00:34:19,474
Speaker 3: Then I think it plays into this pre existing narrative

676
00:34:19,514 --> 00:34:23,794
Speaker 3: about boy mum culture. Mother in law's the implicit, and

677
00:34:23,834 --> 00:34:27,953
Speaker 3: I bristle at this, the implication that there is some

678
00:34:27,994 --> 00:34:32,074
Speaker 3: sort of emotional incest going on between a mother and

679
00:34:32,354 --> 00:34:36,554
Speaker 3: her like ownership over her eldest son. I think it

680
00:34:36,634 --> 00:34:41,794
Speaker 3: is so deeply misogynistic to suggest that women can't get

681
00:34:41,794 --> 00:34:46,114
Speaker 3: along and that there is some fight going on between

682
00:34:46,354 --> 00:34:48,834
Speaker 3: the mother in law and the daughter in law.

683
00:34:50,394 --> 00:34:51,714
Speaker 4: But there is a fight, Jess.

684
00:34:51,834 --> 00:34:54,154
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know it's misogynistic to point out.

685
00:34:53,954 --> 00:34:55,114
Speaker 4: But there is a fight.

686
00:34:56,354 --> 00:34:59,074
Speaker 2: Always, Like I don't buy into I mean, I know

687
00:34:59,154 --> 00:35:01,474
Speaker 2: it exists, and I know that the reason it's a

688
00:35:01,514 --> 00:35:03,393
Speaker 2: trope and a cliche is because there is a lot

689
00:35:03,514 --> 00:35:04,754
Speaker 2: of evidence to support this.

690
00:35:04,994 --> 00:35:07,873
Speaker 3: But if your son stop seeing you after it gets girlfriends.

691
00:35:07,874 --> 00:35:10,234
Speaker 2: It's on your son. Yeah, it's well, it's on your son,

692
00:35:10,234 --> 00:35:12,234
Speaker 2: and maybe it's on you as well, because maybe you

693
00:35:12,274 --> 00:35:15,434
Speaker 2: didn't want to see you. I also bristle a lot

694
00:35:15,514 --> 00:35:18,954
Speaker 2: at this another woman has replaced you stuff and the

695
00:35:19,074 --> 00:35:23,154
Speaker 2: idea that it's inherently a combative relationship that has not

696
00:35:23,274 --> 00:35:25,913
Speaker 2: been my experience. Like so, and I know I'm only

697
00:35:25,954 --> 00:35:28,114
Speaker 2: one person, but it has not been my experience. It's

698
00:35:28,154 --> 00:35:30,873
Speaker 2: also not my experience that like I mean, I know

699
00:35:30,914 --> 00:35:32,314
Speaker 2: I'm not there yet, but I have a son and

700
00:35:32,354 --> 00:35:34,073
Speaker 2: I have a daughter, and the way I feel about

701
00:35:34,074 --> 00:35:36,434
Speaker 2: them as a mother is not vastly different, do you

702
00:35:36,474 --> 00:35:39,194
Speaker 2: know what I mean? Like I love them both. They

703
00:35:39,194 --> 00:35:41,953
Speaker 2: are both very important to me. I hope we all

704
00:35:41,994 --> 00:35:44,754
Speaker 2: stay close for their whole lives.

705
00:35:44,794 --> 00:35:46,314
Speaker 4: But have you trademark their names?

706
00:35:46,674 --> 00:35:46,794
Speaker 5: Not?

707
00:35:46,914 --> 00:35:49,234
Speaker 2: And maybe I need to do that because maybe it

708
00:35:49,274 --> 00:35:52,194
Speaker 2: would help, like yoke them to me to life. Although

709
00:35:52,274 --> 00:35:55,634
Speaker 2: Victoria would disagree. But you think it is an insolvable

710
00:35:55,634 --> 00:35:56,954
Speaker 2: problem the mother in law.

711
00:35:57,034 --> 00:36:01,274
Speaker 1: I mean, it's definitely not an unusual story, Like we

712
00:36:01,314 --> 00:36:03,074
Speaker 1: need to lay our cards on the table here that

713
00:36:03,114 --> 00:36:06,913
Speaker 1: we've all heard examples all that now, and I think

714
00:36:06,954 --> 00:36:09,234
Speaker 1: that there's a video going around at the moment of

715
00:36:09,554 --> 00:36:13,314
Speaker 1: the Beckhams and Brooklyn and Nicola at the premiere of

716
00:36:13,594 --> 00:36:19,634
Speaker 1: Beckham the David documentary, and even at that point, Nicola

717
00:36:19,834 --> 00:36:22,274
Speaker 1: wants nothing to do with Victoria, And I have to

718
00:36:22,314 --> 00:36:24,393
Speaker 1: say Victoria is not extending much of an.

719
00:36:24,314 --> 00:36:25,394
Speaker 4: Olive branch either.

720
00:36:25,674 --> 00:36:29,274
Speaker 1: Whatever happened, there's a particular dynamic there that it's naive

721
00:36:29,314 --> 00:36:31,674
Speaker 1: of us not to point out. Think of Mia Friedman's

722
00:36:31,714 --> 00:36:36,194
Speaker 1: famous famous piece which she talks about the idea that

723
00:36:36,434 --> 00:36:40,674
Speaker 1: their mother's son relationship is a woman's longest breakupick.

724
00:36:42,434 --> 00:36:42,954
Speaker 4: That hit a.

725
00:36:43,034 --> 00:36:46,674
Speaker 2: Chord with I know it did. It's the breakup bit

726
00:36:46,714 --> 00:36:48,754
Speaker 2: for me, because again I think it's what Jesse said,

727
00:36:48,754 --> 00:36:51,993
Speaker 2: this kind of always insinuating that there's something romantic about

728
00:36:52,034 --> 00:36:54,994
Speaker 2: this relationship. But of course she's right, Like, I totally

729
00:36:54,994 --> 00:36:57,914
Speaker 2: get that, But I also just think we can't ignore

730
00:36:57,954 --> 00:37:02,154
Speaker 2: the complexities of this particular family. That video so clear

731
00:37:02,154 --> 00:37:05,274
Speaker 2: that Nicola would rather be anywhere else in the entire world.

732
00:37:05,314 --> 00:37:07,913
Speaker 2: But if we're to believe what Brooklyn said, by then

733
00:37:08,114 --> 00:37:10,354
Speaker 2: the cracks are already deeply showing in the fact that

734
00:37:10,394 --> 00:37:12,514
Speaker 2: they're being pulled into this brand that they do not

735
00:37:12,634 --> 00:37:15,554
Speaker 2: want to be part of again posh. Although she is

736
00:37:16,234 --> 00:37:19,474
Speaker 2: famously a loving demonster of mother. The woman never smiles

737
00:37:19,474 --> 00:37:21,593
Speaker 2: in public. This is back to my point about how

738
00:37:22,154 --> 00:37:26,074
Speaker 2: buckled up, stiff upper lip you know people are. She

739
00:37:26,194 --> 00:37:29,634
Speaker 2: doesn't smile for a camera. She doesn't. She's not even the.

740
00:37:29,674 --> 00:37:33,154
Speaker 1: Chocolate since the nineties, as she told them that documentary.

741
00:37:32,594 --> 00:37:34,674
Speaker 2: She is not going to be like, come over here, darling.

742
00:37:35,474 --> 00:37:38,554
Speaker 2: And there are actually lots of videos of them dancing

743
00:37:38,594 --> 00:37:41,354
Speaker 2: and having good time, her and Nicola clearly before things

744
00:37:41,394 --> 00:37:44,594
Speaker 2: went so pair shaped. I think there's also a story

745
00:37:44,634 --> 00:37:47,834
Speaker 2: here about two very strong and meshed families, which is

746
00:37:47,874 --> 00:37:50,554
Speaker 2: another thing that I think you understand if you are

747
00:37:50,594 --> 00:37:53,234
Speaker 2: in one of those, and if you're not, you think

748
00:37:53,314 --> 00:37:54,033
Speaker 2: is a little bit weird.

749
00:37:55,034 --> 00:37:58,314
Speaker 3: Who is going to work subsumed into which family and

750
00:37:58,394 --> 00:38:01,234
Speaker 3: gender dynamics absolutely play a role in that, Like, let's

751
00:38:01,234 --> 00:38:05,394
Speaker 3: not pretend like people don't go oh, there's an allegiance

752
00:38:05,434 --> 00:38:07,834
Speaker 3: to the woman's family that there is to the man.

753
00:38:07,754 --> 00:38:11,634
Speaker 1: And there's often an expectation the wife's family is going

754
00:38:11,714 --> 00:38:14,473
Speaker 1: to be the sort of quote unquote winner in that

755
00:38:14,514 --> 00:38:15,154
Speaker 1: tuger wark.

756
00:38:15,234 --> 00:38:17,674
Speaker 3: And we've spoken about this before. There can't be a

757
00:38:17,714 --> 00:38:20,474
Speaker 3: brand within a brand. So if it was brand Beckham,

758
00:38:20,594 --> 00:38:23,993
Speaker 3: and you've got Nicola and Nicola coming over to that going,

759
00:38:24,034 --> 00:38:24,514
Speaker 3: I don't want to.

760
00:38:24,514 --> 00:38:25,034
Speaker 2: Be a part of this.

761
00:38:25,074 --> 00:38:27,914
Speaker 3: I'm kind of an individual, I'm American, I'm a billionaire.

762
00:38:28,034 --> 00:38:28,354
Speaker 2: Whatever.

763
00:38:28,714 --> 00:38:29,034
Speaker 4: That was.

764
00:38:29,114 --> 00:38:32,914
Speaker 3: Never she was never going to just perfectly slip into

765
00:38:32,954 --> 00:38:35,034
Speaker 3: the story of the house of.

766
00:38:34,994 --> 00:38:37,954
Speaker 1: That paresthetic is so different from Victoria's to start off with,

767
00:38:38,074 --> 00:38:40,474
Speaker 1: No wonder there was a disagreement over the wedding dress.

768
00:38:40,554 --> 00:38:43,473
Speaker 2: I know, but I do, and I know Mia made

769
00:38:43,474 --> 00:38:47,274
Speaker 2: this point yesterday, But looking back through their instagrams is

770
00:38:47,354 --> 00:38:49,634
Speaker 2: maybe I've spent some time doing in the last twenty

771
00:38:49,634 --> 00:38:53,474
Speaker 2: four hours. The number of magazine covers that Nicola Peltz

772
00:38:53,474 --> 00:38:56,154
Speaker 2: Beckham got when she in those early days of their

773
00:38:56,154 --> 00:38:59,034
Speaker 2: relationship and when they got married. This is not something

774
00:38:59,074 --> 00:39:03,634
Speaker 2: that was happening anyway. Victoria, like Nicola Peltz Beckham, got

775
00:39:03,634 --> 00:39:06,354
Speaker 2: a lot out of that union and that association with

776
00:39:06,394 --> 00:39:08,674
Speaker 2: that name. And so did Brooklyn. Yes, so did Victoria,

777
00:39:08,794 --> 00:39:12,514
Speaker 2: so did David, so did everybody. Yes story and so

778
00:39:12,794 --> 00:39:15,433
Speaker 2: once it becomes toxic and you realize all the bad

779
00:39:15,474 --> 00:39:18,034
Speaker 2: things that come with the good things, that's when it

780
00:39:18,074 --> 00:39:19,074
Speaker 2: gets really icky.

781
00:39:19,274 --> 00:39:20,474
Speaker 4: And Nicola really.

782
00:39:20,274 --> 00:39:23,314
Speaker 1: Is unusually a meshed in her own family too. I

783
00:39:23,314 --> 00:39:25,834
Speaker 1: don't want it to seem like I'm taking her side here.

784
00:39:25,954 --> 00:39:29,834
Speaker 1: I find her Instagram really odd. She posted recently a

785
00:39:29,874 --> 00:39:33,114
Speaker 1: slideshow of pictures of her kind of like walking around

786
00:39:33,154 --> 00:39:36,594
Speaker 1: her parents' palatial Florida estate with her a close up

787
00:39:36,634 --> 00:39:40,434
Speaker 1: of her mother. Very strange pictures to post of your parents.

788
00:39:40,474 --> 00:39:42,873
Speaker 1: I don't know what that's about either. And I do

789
00:39:42,914 --> 00:39:45,194
Speaker 1: think there's a political element here too, which is that,

790
00:39:45,314 --> 00:39:48,993
Speaker 1: as you mentioned, the Peltz patriarch is at the very

791
00:39:49,074 --> 00:39:52,354
Speaker 1: least Trump friendly, if not, he has donated to Donald

792
00:39:52,354 --> 00:39:55,154
Speaker 1: Trump in the past. He's also expressed reservations about it,

793
00:39:55,194 --> 00:39:56,993
Speaker 1: but he did also say that he voted for him

794
00:39:57,234 --> 00:39:59,714
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty four. Incidentally, I think that that was

795
00:39:59,754 --> 00:40:03,114
Speaker 1: the same dynamic happening in the Hillary Duff mean Mom's

796
00:40:03,154 --> 00:40:06,634
Speaker 1: group chat wherein in America right now, Like it's not

797
00:40:06,874 --> 00:40:09,314
Speaker 1: being like, oh, you're you labor or you're liberal, it's

798
00:40:09,354 --> 00:40:12,314
Speaker 1: like are you a Trump supporter? Are you maga or

799
00:40:12,354 --> 00:40:12,834
Speaker 1: are you not?

800
00:40:13,034 --> 00:40:16,554
Speaker 2: And Lisdale posted about Charlie Kirk's assassination, and she was

801
00:40:16,594 --> 00:40:20,354
Speaker 2: obviously more read than the rest of that liberal labor.

802
00:40:20,754 --> 00:40:23,114
Speaker 1: So I'm not saying that David and Victoria are actually

803
00:40:23,194 --> 00:40:26,074
Speaker 1: particularly enthused about this, but if you are maga, it

804
00:40:26,114 --> 00:40:28,834
Speaker 1: does become it has become your identity in the US

805
00:40:28,874 --> 00:40:31,634
Speaker 1: now too, and I can imagine that that is maybe

806
00:40:31,834 --> 00:40:35,714
Speaker 1: somewhat hard to understand for some British people who haven't

807
00:40:35,714 --> 00:40:37,714
Speaker 1: been especially political for most of their lives.

808
00:40:37,754 --> 00:40:40,354
Speaker 2: I've very much tried to stay out of it. Okay, look,

809
00:40:40,434 --> 00:40:42,554
Speaker 2: we could keep going, but we won't listen, as I

810
00:40:42,594 --> 00:40:44,553
Speaker 2: promise you we won't. We are just going to play

811
00:40:44,594 --> 00:40:48,393
Speaker 2: you a tiny grab from yesterday's Subs episode about what

812
00:40:48,634 --> 00:40:51,154
Speaker 2: might happen next, because that is, of course what everybody

813
00:40:51,154 --> 00:40:53,834
Speaker 2: wants to know, what a Victoria David going to do.

814
00:40:54,154 --> 00:40:56,114
Speaker 2: You might have seen today just before we play you

815
00:40:56,194 --> 00:40:59,393
Speaker 2: that that David has been the only footage we have

816
00:40:59,434 --> 00:41:01,754
Speaker 2: of David Beckham since this happened. He's in Davos, which

817
00:41:01,794 --> 00:41:04,954
Speaker 2: is really weird, which is a massive am I right, Amelia,

818
00:41:04,994 --> 00:41:07,754
Speaker 2: And that's a massive world economic forum of right and

819
00:41:07,794 --> 00:41:09,674
Speaker 2: all the great and good and the rich and like

820
00:41:09,754 --> 00:41:13,034
Speaker 2: go and talk about important things. And for inexplicable reasons,

821
00:41:13,074 --> 00:41:14,994
Speaker 2: I wonder if David Beckham was on a panel that

822
00:41:15,714 --> 00:41:17,913
Speaker 2: you will have seen the headlines that say he responds,

823
00:41:17,994 --> 00:41:19,834
Speaker 2: he talks about he doesn't do any of that. He

824
00:41:19,914 --> 00:41:22,714
Speaker 2: was on a panel about where they talk about social media,

825
00:41:22,874 --> 00:41:25,674
Speaker 2: and he made an oblique point about like children make mistake,

826
00:41:25,794 --> 00:41:28,433
Speaker 2: My children made mistakes. He wasn't talking about Brooklyn. But

827
00:41:28,514 --> 00:41:31,033
Speaker 2: what you did see is that as he came out

828
00:41:31,034 --> 00:41:34,274
Speaker 2: of there, he's being mobbed by press, just going what

829
00:41:34,314 --> 00:41:35,594
Speaker 2: do you want to say to Brooklyn? What do you

830
00:41:35,594 --> 00:41:37,393
Speaker 2: want to stay to Brooklyn? Do you have something to say?

831
00:41:37,434 --> 00:41:40,194
Speaker 2: What do you think? And he completely ignores it all

832
00:41:40,194 --> 00:41:43,034
Speaker 2: and walks to the car. So we'll see what they do.

833
00:41:43,114 --> 00:41:45,834
Speaker 2: But here's a little snippet of what Mia Friedman thinks

834
00:41:45,874 --> 00:41:48,114
Speaker 2: they should do. And if you want to hear more

835
00:41:48,114 --> 00:41:50,594
Speaker 2: from mea on this story, she and Jesse and I

836
00:41:50,674 --> 00:41:52,794
Speaker 2: did a whole subs episode yesterday and they'll be linked

837
00:41:52,834 --> 00:41:53,794
Speaker 2: to that in the show notes.

838
00:41:54,514 --> 00:41:57,473
Speaker 4: What is hush now? Because that's later.

839
00:41:57,554 --> 00:42:00,274
Speaker 5: I get that this felt like finally I can speak

840
00:42:00,314 --> 00:42:04,073
Speaker 5: my truth. I get it from Brooklyn and Nicholas's point

841
00:42:04,074 --> 00:42:04,474
Speaker 5: of view.

842
00:42:04,874 --> 00:42:06,873
Speaker 2: But what happens next because.

843
00:42:06,634 --> 00:42:10,314
Speaker 3: Now they have to reply, Well, he's doubled.

844
00:42:09,914 --> 00:42:12,554
Speaker 6: Down on this narrative that he will never not be

845
00:42:12,674 --> 00:42:16,754
Speaker 6: asked about this, you kind of imagine And again two

846
00:42:16,754 --> 00:42:18,914
Speaker 6: things are true, Like I understand that you know the

847
00:42:18,994 --> 00:42:22,953
Speaker 6: raw family of the queen, never complain, never explain. Once

848
00:42:22,994 --> 00:42:27,114
Speaker 6: you do complain, you always have to explain. So no

849
00:42:27,154 --> 00:42:31,234
Speaker 6: one asks William and Catherine about it, any of those accusations,

850
00:42:31,234 --> 00:42:33,433
Speaker 6: any of it, because they've made it very clear they

851
00:42:33,434 --> 00:42:34,473
Speaker 6: will never comment on it.

852
00:42:35,634 --> 00:42:37,873
Speaker 5: I think that's what David and Victoria have to do.

853
00:42:37,994 --> 00:42:41,393
Speaker 2: So if you're advising them with your crisis management hat

854
00:42:41,514 --> 00:42:43,994
Speaker 2: on how their response is. And you can only imagine

855
00:42:44,034 --> 00:42:48,393
Speaker 2: this happened evening time, UK time. You can only imagine

856
00:42:48,434 --> 00:42:50,674
Speaker 2: what's been going on down at that gorgeous farmhouse that

857
00:42:50,714 --> 00:42:51,473
Speaker 2: they're hanging out at.

858
00:42:51,514 --> 00:42:52,594
Speaker 3: No one's had any sleep.

859
00:42:52,954 --> 00:42:54,714
Speaker 2: What would you advise them to do?

860
00:42:56,474 --> 00:42:59,594
Speaker 5: I would advise them to take a breath on a

861
00:42:59,634 --> 00:43:07,114
Speaker 5: real human level, devastating, like gutting. This is her child,

862
00:43:07,594 --> 00:43:11,274
Speaker 5: This is her again. Two things can be true.

863
00:43:11,474 --> 00:43:15,314
Speaker 1: After the break, Why every twenty something needs a friend

864
00:43:15,434 --> 00:43:27,274
Speaker 1: in her forties. A recent article in Self magazine got

865
00:43:27,274 --> 00:43:31,154
Speaker 1: me thinking about a double standard that we have. Age

866
00:43:31,194 --> 00:43:35,674
Speaker 1: gaps and relationships have started to become cool aspirational. Think

867
00:43:35,714 --> 00:43:40,234
Speaker 1: of Nicole Kidman in Baby girl. Oh yeah, and that's great.

868
00:43:40,354 --> 00:43:43,314
Speaker 1: I think that's good. Let a thousand flowers bloom. But

869
00:43:43,794 --> 00:43:48,074
Speaker 1: platonic friendship age gaps are sometimes still received as a

870
00:43:48,114 --> 00:43:52,634
Speaker 1: little bit weird or at the very least unusual. Now, Holly,

871
00:43:52,754 --> 00:43:56,474
Speaker 1: you have a friend in her twenties.

872
00:43:56,354 --> 00:43:59,314
Speaker 2: Thirties, but I'm aldso that's quite.

873
00:43:59,114 --> 00:44:00,194
Speaker 4: Where that works.

874
00:44:00,594 --> 00:44:03,594
Speaker 1: Tell us what happened when you recently went away.

875
00:44:03,834 --> 00:44:05,794
Speaker 2: So out loud as might know. I've got a great

876
00:44:05,834 --> 00:44:08,274
Speaker 2: friend called Lucy Ormond. We actually met working at Mama

877
00:44:08,354 --> 00:44:10,393
Speaker 2: a long time ago. Loose hasn't worked here full time

878
00:44:10,434 --> 00:44:12,993
Speaker 2: for a very long time, and we have become great

879
00:44:12,994 --> 00:44:16,754
Speaker 2: friends over the years. And she is fifteen or sixteen

880
00:44:16,834 --> 00:44:20,074
Speaker 2: years younger than me, so significant age gap, but we

881
00:44:20,194 --> 00:44:22,634
Speaker 2: don't really see that age gap much. But we went

882
00:44:22,634 --> 00:44:26,674
Speaker 2: on holiday together last year to Western Australia and it

883
00:44:26,794 --> 00:44:29,314
Speaker 2: was really interesting. We were staying in like a lodge

884
00:44:29,354 --> 00:44:31,594
Speaker 2: place where there are other people staying of course, and

885
00:44:31,634 --> 00:44:34,994
Speaker 2: you were encouraged to mix and mingle, and people trying

886
00:44:35,034 --> 00:44:38,834
Speaker 2: to work out what our relationship was was really interesting.

887
00:44:38,994 --> 00:44:40,994
Speaker 3: Teen mom, hollyween right, yeah, Well.

888
00:44:40,874 --> 00:44:42,794
Speaker 2: One man did ask if I was her mother. You

889
00:44:42,794 --> 00:44:43,993
Speaker 2: can imagine how that went down.

890
00:44:44,034 --> 00:44:44,274
Speaker 4: With me.

891
00:44:44,554 --> 00:44:46,114
Speaker 2: That did not go down well with me, and I

892
00:44:46,114 --> 00:44:48,514
Speaker 2: immediately blanked him off my list. I will not be

893
00:44:48,594 --> 00:44:52,274
Speaker 2: sitting next to that man at dinner. And also you

894
00:44:52,314 --> 00:44:54,514
Speaker 2: could just see the questions, you know, how people are

895
00:44:54,514 --> 00:44:56,473
Speaker 2: trying to be polite, but they're trying to work out

896
00:44:56,514 --> 00:45:00,634
Speaker 2: what's the deal. Let's her just friends or you know,

897
00:45:00,754 --> 00:45:03,554
Speaker 2: maybe we were lovers? Maybe were, But also then they're like, so,

898
00:45:03,674 --> 00:45:07,634
Speaker 2: how did you know? Very intriguing to them that we

899
00:45:07,354 --> 00:45:10,514
Speaker 2: were friends with this very visible age gap. But I

900
00:45:10,554 --> 00:45:15,073
Speaker 2: actually have quite a few young friends, and I don't

901
00:45:15,234 --> 00:45:17,114
Speaker 2: know if that was the norm when I was growing up,

902
00:45:17,114 --> 00:45:17,634
Speaker 2: But what do you think?

903
00:45:17,714 --> 00:45:19,393
Speaker 1: No, well, that's what I wanted to talk about, because

904
00:45:19,434 --> 00:45:23,634
Speaker 1: I do think people raise an eyebrow at them still

905
00:45:23,754 --> 00:45:27,354
Speaker 1: and maybe that's happening less. But I only developed an

906
00:45:27,394 --> 00:45:32,114
Speaker 1: age gap friendship in my early thirties, and I developed

907
00:45:32,114 --> 00:45:34,834
Speaker 1: it with a woman named Mia Freedman, which is why

908
00:45:34,874 --> 00:45:35,553
Speaker 1: I'm sitting here.

909
00:45:35,634 --> 00:45:36,434
Speaker 4: I think, where.

910
00:45:36,314 --> 00:45:39,634
Speaker 1: About fifteen years aparpa gosh, I don't even know. And

911
00:45:39,834 --> 00:45:42,594
Speaker 1: what I value about it is that every single life

912
00:45:42,594 --> 00:45:46,554
Speaker 1: stage I get too, she's been there, done that, and

913
00:45:46,634 --> 00:45:48,554
Speaker 1: she can just kind of give me, like the one

914
00:45:48,594 --> 00:45:51,634
Speaker 1: sentence advice on how to deal with that particular life stage.

915
00:45:51,634 --> 00:45:54,674
Speaker 1: One example is when I had my first child and

916
00:45:55,474 --> 00:45:58,794
Speaker 1: I felt completely adrift in terms of my career and

917
00:45:58,794 --> 00:46:01,194
Speaker 1: what I would do next, and she said to me,

918
00:46:02,074 --> 00:46:05,794
Speaker 1: don't make any career decisions when you're breastfeeding. I went, oh, okay,

919
00:46:05,874 --> 00:46:07,994
Speaker 1: that's really good to know. And I just was able

920
00:46:08,034 --> 00:46:11,514
Speaker 1: to continue with my sort of career discompopulation and not

921
00:46:11,554 --> 00:46:13,554
Speaker 1: worry about it because my older friend had told me

922
00:46:13,594 --> 00:46:16,834
Speaker 1: this was completely normal. And I don't want to make

923
00:46:16,874 --> 00:46:19,714
Speaker 1: it sound one sided, but that is what I get

924
00:46:19,714 --> 00:46:22,114
Speaker 1: from the friendship is her for one of a better word,

925
00:46:22,194 --> 00:46:24,433
Speaker 1: and she'll hate me for using this word wisdom. I

926
00:46:24,594 --> 00:46:27,754
Speaker 1: appreciate her wisdom, but what's she getting from me that

927
00:46:27,794 --> 00:46:28,594
Speaker 1: makes me worry?

928
00:46:28,794 --> 00:46:31,554
Speaker 2: I know what she's getting from you because my young friends,

929
00:46:31,634 --> 00:46:34,354
Speaker 2: like another of my young friends is Jesse Stevens. We

930
00:46:34,514 --> 00:46:36,994
Speaker 2: fact that I still count as young. We have even

931
00:46:37,034 --> 00:46:39,434
Speaker 2: a larger age gap, I think than mine and Lucy's.

932
00:46:39,794 --> 00:46:41,913
Speaker 2: And I know we're work colleagues, right, but we've been

933
00:46:41,914 --> 00:46:44,794
Speaker 2: working really closely together for years and we're definitely friends.

934
00:46:44,874 --> 00:46:51,354
Speaker 2: And I value Jesse's judgment wisdom insights every bit as

935
00:46:51,434 --> 00:46:53,873
Speaker 2: much as anybody my age, Like, I don't think that

936
00:46:54,034 --> 00:46:56,994
Speaker 2: age always does equate with wisdom. And I've had career

937
00:46:57,034 --> 00:46:59,194
Speaker 2: mentors who are a lot younger than me too, who

938
00:46:59,234 --> 00:47:01,194
Speaker 2: maybe were much more familiar in you know, when I

939
00:47:01,234 --> 00:47:03,794
Speaker 2: moved to digital media, they were a lot more knowledgeable

940
00:47:03,794 --> 00:47:06,514
Speaker 2: than I was about how things worked, and I really

941
00:47:06,634 --> 00:47:09,033
Speaker 2: enjoyed that, and I just you have to get over

942
00:47:09,154 --> 00:47:11,514
Speaker 2: yourself the idea that like, well, I'm older and I

943
00:47:11,594 --> 00:47:14,433
Speaker 2: know you, But then you get a lot out of that.

944
00:47:14,514 --> 00:47:16,194
Speaker 2: And Em is also a friend of mine and we

945
00:47:16,234 --> 00:47:19,194
Speaker 2: go out for dinner sometimes and it's so interesting to

946
00:47:19,234 --> 00:47:22,114
Speaker 2: see the world through her eyes. So I think that

947
00:47:22,154 --> 00:47:25,954
Speaker 2: the old people, I hate to say that, but the

948
00:47:26,034 --> 00:47:30,474
Speaker 2: older person in the friendship, what they're getting is sometimes

949
00:47:30,474 --> 00:47:32,314
Speaker 2: when I'm with my group of people who are all

950
00:47:32,354 --> 00:47:35,194
Speaker 2: the same age as me, they can seem very stuck

951
00:47:35,194 --> 00:47:38,114
Speaker 2: in the mud to me, very like well in my day,

952
00:47:38,274 --> 00:47:40,674
Speaker 2: and very you know, everything from the music they're listening

953
00:47:40,714 --> 00:47:43,674
Speaker 2: to to how they feel about social too. It feels

954
00:47:43,794 --> 00:47:46,354
Speaker 2: very frozen in time somehow. And I think that one

955
00:47:46,354 --> 00:47:48,553
Speaker 2: of the things that stopped me from becoming that way

956
00:47:48,674 --> 00:47:50,674
Speaker 2: is that I have a lot of younger friends.

957
00:47:51,074 --> 00:47:53,873
Speaker 3: Yeah, my parents have both, and I wonder if it's

958
00:47:53,874 --> 00:47:56,834
Speaker 3: a profession both being teachers. Some of their closest friends

959
00:47:56,954 --> 00:48:01,433
Speaker 3: are my age and so they've always like, yeah, and.

960
00:48:01,794 --> 00:48:04,754
Speaker 1: Do you feel okay with that because one of my

961
00:48:04,914 --> 00:48:08,634
Speaker 1: closest friends is very good friends with my mother, very

962
00:48:08,674 --> 00:48:12,873
Speaker 1: independently of me. And I think it's very cozy. Yeah,

963
00:48:12,874 --> 00:48:14,714
Speaker 1: Like at first, I was a little bit I'm not

964
00:48:14,714 --> 00:48:16,674
Speaker 1: gonna lie. At first, I felt a little bit like

965
00:48:17,674 --> 00:48:21,634
Speaker 1: mift is too strong, maybe like huh, But now I'm like,

966
00:48:21,754 --> 00:48:23,993
Speaker 1: that's the most delightful, lovely.

967
00:48:23,794 --> 00:48:26,474
Speaker 4: Cozy thing I can think of. Is that how you feel?

968
00:48:26,674 --> 00:48:29,994
Speaker 3: Yes, I think it's almost like there's less pressure. I

969
00:48:29,994 --> 00:48:31,514
Speaker 3: see a lot of their friends who are in the

970
00:48:31,754 --> 00:48:34,834
Speaker 3: stage of for people in their sixties, they go to

971
00:48:34,914 --> 00:48:37,594
Speaker 3: so many weddings because they know so many people of

972
00:48:37,634 --> 00:48:40,873
Speaker 3: that like that age group, and I wonder if there's

973
00:48:40,954 --> 00:48:45,354
Speaker 3: less pressure to compete and compare. There's definitely the wisdom

974
00:48:45,394 --> 00:48:48,754
Speaker 3: and the perspective thing, like I can see that maybe

975
00:48:48,754 --> 00:48:50,834
Speaker 3: when you're also out of that life stage of having

976
00:48:50,914 --> 00:48:56,114
Speaker 3: little kids, there's no judgment. So my parents will offering

977
00:48:56,194 --> 00:48:59,354
Speaker 3: the holidays childcare to some of their friends.

978
00:48:59,194 --> 00:49:00,473
Speaker 4: Or whatever friends.

979
00:49:01,954 --> 00:49:03,674
Speaker 3: They'll do that sort of stuff, and it's like they

980
00:49:03,714 --> 00:49:05,674
Speaker 3: do not judge anything a parent does because they're just

981
00:49:05,714 --> 00:49:07,874
Speaker 3: not in the same life stage and they like everyone's

982
00:49:07,874 --> 00:49:08,594
Speaker 3: doing their best.

983
00:49:08,714 --> 00:49:12,434
Speaker 1: We've well crucially, their young friends don't feel judged whether

984
00:49:12,554 --> 00:49:15,114
Speaker 1: or not people are judging them. You are hyper aware

985
00:49:15,154 --> 00:49:18,514
Speaker 1: when you have little kids.

986
00:49:17,914 --> 00:49:20,993
Speaker 3: Your age, and it's like we you know, recently, it

987
00:49:21,034 --> 00:49:24,594
Speaker 3: was like I gave Luna a chocolate and another parent's going,

988
00:49:24,634 --> 00:49:27,434
Speaker 3: we don't have chocolate before dinner, and I was like, fuck, yeah.

989
00:49:27,274 --> 00:49:31,074
Speaker 4: Victoria be yeah, and what about you? Do you have

990
00:49:31,194 --> 00:49:32,314
Speaker 4: age gap friends? Yes?

991
00:49:32,554 --> 00:49:34,594
Speaker 3: Yes, most of them apart from Holly.

992
00:49:34,474 --> 00:49:36,994
Speaker 2: In fact, although she's your mother in List's compety.

993
00:49:37,114 --> 00:49:37,274
Speaker 4: Yeah.

994
00:49:37,794 --> 00:49:40,354
Speaker 3: I think that ever since starting here. And I find

995
00:49:40,394 --> 00:49:44,114
Speaker 3: it funny that it's like we look at romantic relationships

996
00:49:44,154 --> 00:49:46,634
Speaker 3: and can only see age gaps in terms of power,

997
00:49:47,074 --> 00:49:51,034
Speaker 3: Like that's it just overlays the whole thing. Leonardo DiCaprio

998
00:49:51,594 --> 00:49:54,754
Speaker 3: is a punchline. Even Baby Girl and all of that.

999
00:49:54,994 --> 00:49:59,714
Speaker 3: It's like, oh, is it creepy? Is it predatory? Is

1000
00:49:59,754 --> 00:50:01,554
Speaker 3: it like we're trying to work out who has the

1001
00:50:01,634 --> 00:50:04,234
Speaker 3: power in it. We can't imagine that if there's a

1002
00:50:04,354 --> 00:50:06,913
Speaker 3: significant age gap, that there could be a quality but

1003
00:50:06,954 --> 00:50:12,433
Speaker 3: in friendships, I don't think we do that, nor should we. Like,

1004
00:50:12,514 --> 00:50:14,634
Speaker 3: I have a lot of because Luke is younger than me,

1005
00:50:15,194 --> 00:50:17,554
Speaker 3: A lot of people I hang out with younger than me.

1006
00:50:17,874 --> 00:50:20,274
Speaker 2: So how did those age gaps go? Yeah, well I'm

1007
00:50:20,274 --> 00:50:21,354
Speaker 2: off platonic ones.

1008
00:50:21,434 --> 00:50:24,873
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, completely different because they're in the age group

1009
00:50:24,914 --> 00:50:26,274
Speaker 3: now where they're all moving to London.

1010
00:50:26,394 --> 00:50:26,834
Speaker 2: Remember that.

1011
00:50:27,674 --> 00:50:31,473
Speaker 3: I find that fascinating, probably more interesting because I'm like

1012
00:50:31,674 --> 00:50:35,433
Speaker 3: living through that. And then I think that you kind

1013
00:50:35,514 --> 00:50:39,914
Speaker 3: of don't get stuck in your life stage or maybe

1014
00:50:39,994 --> 00:50:42,393
Speaker 3: it makes you less narcissistic or thinking that the whole

1015
00:50:42,394 --> 00:50:46,114
Speaker 3: world revolves around you and where you are right now.

1016
00:50:46,154 --> 00:50:48,034
Speaker 3: I feel like it gives you access to a lot

1017
00:50:48,034 --> 00:50:48,674
Speaker 3: of different people.

1018
00:50:48,834 --> 00:50:51,514
Speaker 2: I think because obviously workplaces are the place where these

1019
00:50:51,594 --> 00:50:53,634
Speaker 2: kind of friendships are going to flourish, right because you're

1020
00:50:53,634 --> 00:50:56,474
Speaker 2: not generally hanging out with a lot of people you

1021
00:50:56,514 --> 00:50:59,433
Speaker 2: don't know who in very different age brackets. In other

1022
00:50:59,474 --> 00:51:01,274
Speaker 2: areas of your life, are you? I mean, maybe if

1023
00:51:01,314 --> 00:51:03,314
Speaker 2: you've got a particular hobby or you join a sporting

1024
00:51:03,314 --> 00:51:06,634
Speaker 2: club or so maybe. But I think though when I

1025
00:51:06,754 --> 00:51:11,234
Speaker 2: was a twin something starting my working life, a forty

1026
00:51:11,274 --> 00:51:14,194
Speaker 2: something in my office would have seemed I can't imagine

1027
00:51:14,194 --> 00:51:16,594
Speaker 2: that I would have reached out a branch of friendship

1028
00:51:16,634 --> 00:51:19,033
Speaker 2: to them. I can imagine that I would have thought

1029
00:51:19,074 --> 00:51:22,114
Speaker 2: they're so old. Ye Oh, my god, that's so old.

1030
00:51:22,834 --> 00:51:24,834
Speaker 2: And so I think there's a certain amount of growing

1031
00:51:24,914 --> 00:51:27,714
Speaker 2: up phatronizing words. But it's a bit of growing up

1032
00:51:27,754 --> 00:51:30,834
Speaker 2: to do before you start not worrying about that.

1033
00:51:30,994 --> 00:51:33,393
Speaker 3: And I reckon, it's like a mid twenties. Everyone was

1034
00:51:33,434 --> 00:51:35,554
Speaker 3: my parents until I was over the age of my

1035
00:51:35,594 --> 00:51:36,194
Speaker 3: mid twenties.

1036
00:51:36,274 --> 00:51:39,074
Speaker 2: I reckon, that's right. And then I think that if

1037
00:51:39,074 --> 00:51:42,594
Speaker 2: I had advice, and this is for both ends of that,

1038
00:51:42,994 --> 00:51:45,834
Speaker 2: is that do try and foster it. If you like

1039
00:51:45,914 --> 00:51:47,513
Speaker 2: each other and you get along and you make each

1040
00:51:47,514 --> 00:51:50,234
Speaker 2: other laugh in the kitchen, there's no reason not to.

1041
00:51:50,354 --> 00:51:52,634
Speaker 2: Whereas I feel like I would have felt it was,

1042
00:51:52,674 --> 00:51:55,994
Speaker 2: I don't know, uncool to have somebody who I considered

1043
00:51:56,034 --> 00:51:58,473
Speaker 2: a friend who is in a very different stage, or

1044
00:51:58,514 --> 00:52:01,234
Speaker 2: that they would think I was silly. But I think

1045
00:52:01,234 --> 00:52:03,954
Speaker 2: there's a lot to offer in both those directions.

1046
00:52:04,034 --> 00:52:07,074
Speaker 1: Just on that point about how to cultivate these friendships.

1047
00:52:07,154 --> 00:52:09,834
Speaker 1: And so we're talking about all these the manifold benefits

1048
00:52:09,834 --> 00:52:13,794
Speaker 1: of them in your experience, Holly, you have these younger friends.

1049
00:52:13,954 --> 00:52:16,274
Speaker 1: Is this partly because the owners was a bit on

1050
00:52:16,354 --> 00:52:18,873
Speaker 1: you as the older friend to cultivate the friendship.

1051
00:52:18,954 --> 00:52:22,114
Speaker 2: Probably. I used to work with this amazing young woman who,

1052
00:52:22,234 --> 00:52:24,234
Speaker 2: as I used to think of her as my mentor

1053
00:52:24,354 --> 00:52:26,754
Speaker 2: very much and ask her questions about like, what do

1054
00:52:26,794 --> 00:52:28,594
Speaker 2: you think about this strategy I'm putting in place for

1055
00:52:28,634 --> 00:52:30,034
Speaker 2: this and blah blah blah blah. She used to give

1056
00:52:30,034 --> 00:52:32,234
Speaker 2: me the best advice, And so we started going out

1057
00:52:32,234 --> 00:52:35,594
Speaker 2: for drink, you know, like, which seemed at first maybe

1058
00:52:35,594 --> 00:52:37,953
Speaker 2: talk to talk about work, but then it would be, oh,

1059
00:52:38,034 --> 00:52:39,794
Speaker 2: you know, maybe we'll have dinner, like just like any

1060
00:52:39,794 --> 00:52:42,913
Speaker 2: friendship slowly advancing. And I guess it probably was true

1061
00:52:42,994 --> 00:52:46,074
Speaker 2: that I had to make the social advance. I do

1062
00:52:46,114 --> 00:52:50,834
Speaker 2: think that's bridge that gap between professional and personal. And

1063
00:52:51,354 --> 00:52:54,714
Speaker 2: obviously I'm not suggesting that every like grown up person

1064
00:52:54,794 --> 00:52:56,194
Speaker 2: in the office should be marching up to the young

1065
00:52:56,194 --> 00:52:57,714
Speaker 2: people and going we should go to the pub. I

1066
00:52:57,754 --> 00:52:58,913
Speaker 2: mean that would be more.

1067
00:52:59,994 --> 00:53:03,473
Speaker 3: Unself consciousness though. As women get older, Yeah, where, And

1068
00:53:03,554 --> 00:53:05,873
Speaker 3: I think of the friends that I have who are

1069
00:53:05,874 --> 00:53:06,554
Speaker 3: in there has to.

1070
00:53:06,474 --> 00:53:09,473
Speaker 2: Be chemistry, yeah, saying before you start insisting that they

1071
00:53:09,514 --> 00:53:10,594
Speaker 2: have to come to the pub with you.

1072
00:53:10,754 --> 00:53:14,354
Speaker 3: Yeah, I just you know the women I know in

1073
00:53:14,594 --> 00:53:18,114
Speaker 3: like forties fifties who I'm friends with, they definitely were

1074
00:53:18,114 --> 00:53:20,834
Speaker 3: the initiators. But maybe that was my own insecurity, thinking, well,

1075
00:53:20,834 --> 00:53:22,954
Speaker 3: why would they want to spend their time talking to someone.

1076
00:53:22,994 --> 00:53:24,873
Speaker 1: I do think there's a bit of insecurity there, and

1077
00:53:24,914 --> 00:53:27,913
Speaker 1: the age gap thing becomes less relevant. You understand that

1078
00:53:27,954 --> 00:53:30,074
Speaker 1: it's much less important than you think it is as

1079
00:53:30,074 --> 00:53:32,953
Speaker 1: you get older. I remember in my twenties I had

1080
00:53:32,994 --> 00:53:36,194
Speaker 1: a really good friend who was two years younger than me,

1081
00:53:36,474 --> 00:53:38,674
Speaker 1: and I am not joking when I say that it

1082
00:53:38,874 --> 00:53:41,194
Speaker 1: like weighed on me every time we hung out. I

1083
00:53:41,274 --> 00:53:45,794
Speaker 1: just felt like this old maid dispensing my wisdom to her.

1084
00:53:46,434 --> 00:53:48,714
Speaker 4: Then you realize that that's really very silly.

1085
00:53:49,234 --> 00:53:51,514
Speaker 2: I would love to hear some of the out loudest

1086
00:53:51,554 --> 00:53:53,754
Speaker 2: stories about age gap friendships. I bet there are some

1087
00:53:53,834 --> 00:53:56,634
Speaker 2: good ones out there. I bet there's some embarrassing missteps,

1088
00:53:57,114 --> 00:53:59,274
Speaker 2: and I'm sure there are people who have very special

1089
00:53:59,274 --> 00:54:01,314
Speaker 2: people in their lives who are from a different generation.

1090
00:54:01,394 --> 00:54:03,634
Speaker 2: But don't just walk up to the young people and

1091
00:54:03,674 --> 00:54:04,474
Speaker 2: that's them if they want to go.

1092
00:54:04,794 --> 00:54:07,434
Speaker 3: Don't do that, and don't treat older people like a

1093
00:54:07,514 --> 00:54:10,873
Speaker 3: charity case where you go, Holly, you're looking lonely in

1094
00:54:10,914 --> 00:54:12,794
Speaker 3: your old age? Do you need a friend?

1095
00:54:13,114 --> 00:54:15,154
Speaker 1: Check in on me because I'm trying to cultivate and

1096
00:54:15,354 --> 00:54:18,274
Speaker 1: Vernon as a friend.

1097
00:54:16,954 --> 00:54:19,873
Speaker 4: So I'll give you an update on you too.

1098
00:54:20,314 --> 00:54:23,834
Speaker 2: You too like good food and nice drinks and yeah,

1099
00:54:23,954 --> 00:54:26,473
Speaker 2: so I feel like you. I think I could see

1100
00:54:26,514 --> 00:54:27,754
Speaker 2: a couple of good dates in your face.

1101
00:54:27,754 --> 00:54:29,114
Speaker 4: I might. I might ask her out.

1102
00:54:30,954 --> 00:54:33,473
Speaker 2: Out loud as that is all we have time for

1103
00:54:33,634 --> 00:54:36,674
Speaker 2: on today's show. We've been to a lot of different places,

1104
00:54:36,674 --> 00:54:40,274
Speaker 2: haven't we. An enormous thank you to our incredible team, who,

1105
00:54:40,394 --> 00:54:43,114
Speaker 2: especially in the face of all this breaking news, likely

1106
00:54:43,674 --> 00:54:46,234
Speaker 2: have been working their butts off to bring you all

1107
00:54:46,274 --> 00:54:47,034
Speaker 2: these shows.

1108
00:54:47,354 --> 00:54:49,794
Speaker 3: I heard Holly call Brent. She was on the phone

1109
00:54:49,794 --> 00:54:52,393
Speaker 3: to Brent and she's like, it's been such a busy day, Brent.

1110
00:54:52,434 --> 00:54:54,674
Speaker 3: You know what with Brooklyn Beckham, I bet you you

1111
00:54:54,714 --> 00:54:58,154
Speaker 3: don't even know about them. And it was like explaining

1112
00:54:58,154 --> 00:55:00,354
Speaker 3: it was like she thought she was a surgeon. He'd

1113
00:55:00,394 --> 00:55:02,994
Speaker 3: been in back to back surgery and she was like,

1114
00:55:02,994 --> 00:55:05,554
Speaker 3: I've just just been in really intense I.

1115
00:55:05,594 --> 00:55:09,114
Speaker 4: Told my partner, room is like between Greenland and Brooklyn

1116
00:55:09,194 --> 00:55:10,114
Speaker 4: back in this week.

1117
00:55:10,394 --> 00:55:15,234
Speaker 2: This is a crazy week, really is No Brenda did

1118
00:55:15,314 --> 00:55:19,474
Speaker 2: not know about the Brooklyn back and drama. We'll be

1119
00:55:19,474 --> 00:55:20,514
Speaker 2: back in your ears tomorrow.

1120
00:55:20,514 --> 00:55:29,594
Speaker 3: Out loud As by Mama May acknowledges the traditional owners

1121
00:55:29,634 --> 00:55:31,954
Speaker 3: of the land on which we have recorded this podcast.