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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.

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Speaker 3: It's a Woman's Will. Lucky to be.

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Speaker 2: Ah, Hello, and welcome to Mamma Mia. Out loud. It's

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Speaker 2: what women are actually talking about on Monday, the fifteenth

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Speaker 2: of July.

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Speaker 4: I'm Holly Wayne, right, I'm mea Friedman, and.

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Speaker 3: I'm Jesse Stevens. And I went to actually message our

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Speaker 3: producer and say, silly, silly, you've got the date wrong

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Speaker 3: because I couldn't believe it was the fifteenth of July.

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Speaker 3: I wanted to say to her, Oh, no, that's wrong.

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Speaker 4: When did you think it was?

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Speaker 3: I don't know, the second of June or something.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's fair.

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Speaker 2: We're racing through, yeah, through this year, and thank god

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Speaker 2: because i'd like it to be over already. On the

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Speaker 2: show today, the bullet that missed former President Trump but

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Speaker 2: changed everything about the American election. Also, It's a Woman's Will,

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Speaker 2: and we're waving drills while wearing teeny tiny bikinis and

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Speaker 2: putting petrol in our butts. It's Katy Perry's come back

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Speaker 2: and you're living in it. And Vail Shannondoherty, who was

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Speaker 2: very clear that haters were not going to be welcome

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Speaker 2: at her funeral, a rule that likely means her husband

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Speaker 2: is not invited. But first at least eight shots in

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Speaker 2: just a few seconds.

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Speaker 3: That may change America forever.

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Speaker 4: Take a look at what happened.

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Speaker 2: Former US President Donald Trump has survived an attempt on

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Speaker 2: his life at a campaign rally. The FBI says it

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Speaker 2: is treating the shooting as an assassination attempt.

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Speaker 5: Law enforcement officials say the person who opened fired was

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Speaker 5: twenty year old Thomas Matthew Crooks.

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Speaker 6: We are not enemies. We're neighbors. We're friends, co workers, citizens,

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Speaker 6: and most importantly, we are fellow Americans. We must stand together.

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Speaker 6: There is no place in America for this kind of violence,

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Speaker 6: for any violence, ever, period, no exceptions. We can allow

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Speaker 6: this violence to be normalized. You know, the political regular

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Speaker 6: this country has gotten very heated. It's time to call

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Speaker 6: it down.

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Speaker 2: Yesterday, Donald Trump survived an attempt on his life and

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Speaker 2: it's changed everything about the American election. We very much

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Speaker 2: doubt that you haven't heard about this, but we're here

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Speaker 2: to fill in some gaps and unpack some smart people's

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Speaker 2: opinions about what comes next. Former President Trump was speaking

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Speaker 2: at a rally in Butler, Pennsylvania, at about six o'clock

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Speaker 2: on Saturday evening US time.

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Speaker 6: Now.

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Speaker 2: Butler is a smallish regional community on the outskirts of Pittsburgh,

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Speaker 2: and he was talking in a kind of like show

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Speaker 2: ground space usually used for the town's very popular farm show,

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Speaker 2: and experts say that that kind of space in a

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Speaker 2: rural area with very few surrounding buildings is actually should

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Speaker 2: be much easier to secure than if you were in

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Speaker 2: a city or any kind of place that had lots

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Speaker 2: of overlooking buildings. So in theory, it's a relatively easy

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Speaker 2: to see cure spot. All the same alone, gunman on

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Speaker 2: the roof of a car park aimed his ar style

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Speaker 2: rifle at the former president and took several shots. One

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Speaker 2: whiz passed his ear, nicking it and causing the former

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Speaker 2: president to duck and for his Secret Service agents to

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Speaker 2: do what they're paid to do and pile on top

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Speaker 2: of him to take any further bullets.

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Speaker 7: I found those images incredibly moving. Isn't necessarily the right word,

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Speaker 7: but it really made me think about what they do

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Speaker 7: every day. Like that instinct, It's like Keny first responders, right.

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Speaker 7: Your instinct is to move away from danger, but they

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Speaker 7: literally put their body between the person they're protecting and danger.

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Speaker 2: There were no further bullets because a sniper had shot

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Speaker 2: and killed the gunman, twenty year old Thomas Crooks, but

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Speaker 2: not before his bullets took the life of a man

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Speaker 2: attending the rally, fifty year old Corey Compartori. Then, and

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Speaker 2: this is the part that you've seen over and over

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Speaker 2: on your phone's TV screens and on the front of

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Speaker 2: every newspaper in the world today. As Trump is ushered off,

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Speaker 2: he shakes off his service agents to rise head and

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Speaker 2: shoulders above them, which is, by the way, very much

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Speaker 2: against protocol. The whole point is that they're supposed to

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Speaker 2: cover you, so that if there are more bullets coming,

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Speaker 2: more gunmen there, they will get the shots, not you.

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Speaker 2: He riises head and shoulders above them, raises a fist,

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Speaker 2: and with his face splattered with his own blood, he

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Speaker 2: shouts fight, Fight, Fight. Jesse, what did you think when

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Speaker 2: you first saw this story.

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Speaker 3: It's weird, isn't it. It just pops up in your Instagram

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Speaker 3: feet alongside someone's picture from Europe, and it popped up

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Speaker 3: and I went, oh, and I'm horrified by this story,

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Speaker 3: and I, you know, echo everyone who just says this

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Speaker 3: is not what democracy is. I think it's really scary.

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Speaker 3: I think it's a really traumatic incident. I think the

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Speaker 3: biggest tragedy is the person who lost their lives and

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Speaker 3: people who are in a critical condition that's been really

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Speaker 3: lost in this. I think that someone died for demonstrating

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Speaker 3: their political beliefs, which should never happen in a democracy.

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Speaker 3: But I actually don't think I was surprised. There was

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Speaker 3: a moment of almost having expected this, which I have

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Speaker 3: found in a lot of the commentary as well. And

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Speaker 3: the commentary allowed me to understand why I felt that way,

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Speaker 3: which was that the temperature had been rising so high

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Speaker 3: in the US, and the way that these two candidates

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Speaker 3: speak to and about each other is so intense. You know,

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Speaker 3: a lot of commentators have said, how did it take

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Speaker 3: this long for there to be an act of violence

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Speaker 3: like this? But then, of course we remember that Nancy Pelosi,

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Speaker 3: that was only a few years ago that her husband

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Speaker 3: was bludgeoned in his own home. And then there was

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Speaker 3: Brett Kavanagh. Someone tried to assassinate him after abortion laws

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Speaker 3: were turned back there's been someone setting themselves a light

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Speaker 3: outside Donald Trump's trial. Something like thirty seven people have

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Speaker 3: died in like politically motivated attacks in the last few years,

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Speaker 3: because in the US there doesn't seem to be a

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Speaker 3: peaceful center. It's like the other side is your enemy.

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Speaker 3: And to watch this, I realized that both sides had deteriorated,

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Speaker 3: that there's been this representation from Democrats and from the

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Speaker 3: left that you know, the deplorables and fake news and

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Speaker 3: all that kind of stuff. The riot, of course, the

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Speaker 3: insurrection the January sixth Capital event, and that was Republicans.

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Speaker 3: But this, I went, oh, this was an attack on Trump,

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Speaker 3: and now he's seen as a martyr, and this will

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Speaker 3: be if he wasn't already going to win this election,

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Speaker 3: that man will win the election.

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Speaker 2: Mia, What did you think of the image, the image

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Speaker 2: that I just described of him with the blood and

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Speaker 2: his fist up, it's visceral, will definitely and to the

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Speaker 2: history books as one of the most important news images

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Speaker 2: of our time. What does it make you feel.

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Speaker 7: I felt oddly detached when I heard this news, and

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Speaker 7: I've been trying to work out why. I mean, part

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Speaker 7: of it is just going into adrenaline mode with breaking news.

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Speaker 4: But I also knew.

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Speaker 7: That it, like seemingly everything, it would play into his hands.

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Speaker 7: Because that image was so interesting to me because for

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Speaker 7: those out louders who were old enough to remember the

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Speaker 7: attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan in the eighties by a

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Speaker 7: lone crazy gunman who was trying to impress Jodie Foster,

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Speaker 7: who was a young actress at the time. So it

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Speaker 7: wasn't even politically motivated by a guy called John Hinckley.

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Speaker 7: What you saw in that footage was grainy, like people panicked, ducking.

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Speaker 7: But what was interesting about Donald Trump's instincts is that

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Speaker 7: your instincts, you would think would be to hide from danger,

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Speaker 7: self protection. But he knew in that moment that the

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Speaker 7: cameras were on him, and he was defiant without knowing

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Speaker 7: what the attack was, what had happened, how safe he was,

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Speaker 7: how safe he was that it was in fact an

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Speaker 7: assassination attempt.

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Speaker 4: He straightway said fight fight it.

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Speaker 3: That meant fight who.

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Speaker 7: Donald Trump has always fashioned himself as the underdog and

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Speaker 7: as a victim, and even when he was president, he

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Speaker 7: was always trying to make it that everybody was against him,

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Speaker 7: and he wasn't getting the credit he deserved and the

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Speaker 7: respect that he deserved, and that he was a victim

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Speaker 7: of the fake news media who were lying about him.

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Speaker 7: And he actually won the election and people said that

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Speaker 7: he didn't. So his posture has always been very I'm

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Speaker 7: the underdog, which is ironic for a guy who is

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Speaker 7: as privileged as him and was literally the president of

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Speaker 7: the United States. So I knew instantly that that image

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Speaker 7: will probably win him the election, if he wasn't already going.

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Speaker 4: To win it. And the thing about it because it

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Speaker 4: makes him a martyr. Yeah, and of course all the discourse,

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Speaker 4: what's so maddening about it? And I knew in that moment.

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Speaker 7: He has a way of it's a little bit like

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Speaker 7: I know you are, but what am I. He takes

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Speaker 7: anything that anyone says about him, like fake news, for

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Speaker 7: example's people were trying to say when he was just

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Speaker 7: making out lies about Hillary Clinton and about Quanon, kind

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Speaker 7: of conspiracy theories when he was running in twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 7: He twisted that and used it to anything that he

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Speaker 7: didn't want people to believe about him. He just called

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Speaker 7: it fake news. He was the one that weaponized it.

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Speaker 7: And so now he's weaponizing the idea that the rhetoric,

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Speaker 7: because even you said, Jesse, both sides have been inflating it.

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Speaker 7: It actually hasn't been both sides. He's been called what

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Speaker 7: he actually is, which is a convicted rapist and felon

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Speaker 7: and an existential threat to democracy. Those are sort of facts, really,

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Speaker 7: but his language has always been incredibly incendiary, incredibly violent.

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Speaker 2: The thing is, too, though about the fight Fight, Fight,

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Speaker 2: is that there's Trump, but then there's also Trump's like

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Speaker 2: literal army. What we saw on January the sixth when

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Speaker 2: he incited a riot of people, armed people to invade

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Speaker 2: a government building, and we do not know what would

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Speaker 2: have happened to the high profile mostly democratic but not

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Speaker 2: only not only Democrats, enemies of Trump who were in

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Speaker 2: there if the mob had got their hands on them.

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Speaker 2: There is a literal sense of building a resistance under Trump,

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Speaker 2: and a lot of Americans who would not identify as

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Speaker 2: Republicans necessarily. No one knows why Thomas Crooks had twenty

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Speaker 2: years old, so young, my god, but did what he did.

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Speaker 2: But he is a registered Republican. But I don't know

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Speaker 2: that a lot of Trump supporters consider themselves Republicans. They're

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Speaker 2: Trump supporters, you know.

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Speaker 3: Just on the both sides thing. The reason that I'm

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Speaker 3: cautious here because I know that in terms of violence

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Speaker 3: entering political debate and Nancy Pelosi and you know, a

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Speaker 3: lot of the cases were Republicans, some.

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Speaker 7: Were Democrats, like a Bernie Sanders supporter attacked a congressman

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Speaker 7: a few years ago.

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Speaker 3: But with this, I did have a sense that in

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Speaker 3: the moments afterwards, when it was being twisted to be

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Speaker 3: about how this was Trump's fault, I just went, this

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Speaker 3: is a human being who is running for president in

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Speaker 3: a Democratic who just nearly by a centimeter, if his

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Speaker 3: head had moved to a centimeter, would have been killed

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Speaker 3: on a stage. Like I think we've got to be

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Speaker 3: careful not to blame him for the assassination attempt. And

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Speaker 3: I think that there are points throughout the campaigns and

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Speaker 3: points across the last eight to ten years where we

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Speaker 3: can go we've stooped to a certain level. But also

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Speaker 3: we have characterized Trump supporters and Trump himself as something

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Speaker 3: less than Jamie.

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Speaker 7: Politics in America used to be really boring, like really boring,

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Speaker 7: even with Ronald Dragan that was that wasn't a politically

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Speaker 7: motivated attack in the good old days politics was boring.

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Speaker 7: It's only since twenty fifteen that we've had things that

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Speaker 7: were previously unimaginable, like riots in the Capitol building and

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Speaker 7: people talking about hanging members of Yes.

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Speaker 3: But I've listened to both sides, left and right, and

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Speaker 3: this actually isn't just about Trump. This is just broadly

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Speaker 3: how we speak about people and the level of contempt

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Speaker 3: that's in our voice. And remember Hillary Clinton and the deplorables.

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Speaker 3: When you start representing people as less than human, when

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Speaker 3: you demonize the other side to such an extent, violence

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Speaker 3: seems like.

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Speaker 4: A started those chants of lock her up about Hillary Clinton.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the Democrats, But you can't I see what Jesse

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Speaker 2: is saying because the presidential debate that happened two weeks ago,

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Speaker 2: and everybody obviously the story out of that was all

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Speaker 2: about Biden's fitness for office, which we'll get to in

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Speaker 2: a second. But the thing that actually really struck me

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Speaker 2: about that is all the reports said, these men will

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Speaker 2: not say hello to each other, they will not shake hands,

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Speaker 2: they won't refer to each other. That is not how

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Speaker 2: politics used to be, right, It used to be like

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Speaker 2: a sporting game.

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Speaker 4: But you know, let me finish myself.

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Speaker 2: It's like a sporting game where on the field you

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Speaker 2: would take somebody's legs out whatever, and afterwards you shake

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Speaker 2: their hands and you change shits.

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Speaker 4: And when did that change? Whole agree, And.

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Speaker 2: There is no question for me about what side in

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Speaker 2: inverted commas I feel has heightened the debate. But I

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Speaker 2: also think it's to do with the fact that we

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Speaker 2: live in a very different time in terms of social media,

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Speaker 2: and we all know that, we talk about it all

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Speaker 2: the time, what the algorithm rewards, etc. It was striking

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Speaker 2: to me that in the British election that we just saw,

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Speaker 2: they are talking about each other with civility when they lose,

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Speaker 2: they are They're losing gracefully. And this is also Trump's fault,

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Speaker 2: to be honest, because.

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Speaker 4: The Australian election the.

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Speaker 2: Reason that people talk about Trump being a threat to democracy,

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Speaker 2: and some people in the aftermath of the shooting have

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Speaker 2: said that such hyperbole. It isn't. Because he lost an

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Speaker 2: election and he refused to get out of office. That

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Speaker 2: is the definition of threatening democracy. So that's all true anyway.

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Speaker 2: I want to ask Mia quickly to Jesse's point that

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Speaker 2: there's certainly not only one side here. Who's spinning. Almost

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Speaker 2: immediately after this happened, senior Democrats came out straight away

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Speaker 2: all what I would like to call the grown ups,

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Speaker 2: and condemned the actions of the gunman, no question, called

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Speaker 2: for calm, called for unity everybody from Obama to Biden

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Speaker 2: to world leaders around the country. But there was a

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Speaker 2: small portion of the left who went straight to work

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Speaker 2: accusing the right of a conspiracy MAA, what's blueing on?

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Speaker 7: Well, if QAnon is a collection of sort of conspiracy

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Speaker 7: theories held by right wingers, So overall, the beliefs of

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Speaker 7: QAnon that became really big during the Trump years that

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Speaker 7: the Secret Service, the CIA, the FBI, and the elites

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Speaker 7: are all working together to bring Trump down and to

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Speaker 7: abuse children, and that there's a cabal of selling children.

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Speaker 7: So that's sort of what QAnon is, and that Trump

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Speaker 7: has come to overthrow all of these evil people. And

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Speaker 7: what I hadn't heard about, but which has been around

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Speaker 7: in the last couple of years and really showed its

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Speaker 7: head after this assassination attempt is blueing on and that's

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Speaker 7: the conspiracy theories held by the left. So what you

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Speaker 7: might have seen over the weekend was the idea that

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Speaker 7: the Trump shooting was staged to make him seem sympathetic

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Speaker 7: and powerful, which is how it's gone down. But the

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Speaker 7: idea that it was just tomato sauce, and the way

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Speaker 7: that the Secret Service allowed him to put his head

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Speaker 7: up and pump his fist and say fight, fight, fight, Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 7: and people saying that the image was just too perfect

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Speaker 7: of the upside down American flag and him with blood

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Speaker 7: but still looking defiant with his strong scale and not

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Speaker 7: looking scared or all the ways that you would have

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Speaker 7: thought he would look so. And this is where it is,

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Speaker 7: both sides being crazy QAnon and Blue and on fighting

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Speaker 7: it out and basically not believing anything that they see.

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Speaker 1: The thing.

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Speaker 2: It is not new or surprising at the moment that

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Speaker 2: there are no agreed on facts about anything ever.

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Speaker 3: And I saw that everywhere. It wasn't just in tiny

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Speaker 3: little niches on the internet, like it was all over

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Speaker 3: my TikTok feed, all over Instagram, people whose opinion I

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Speaker 3: respect saying almost immediately that they don't believe that this happened,

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Speaker 3: And I just went, this is how you know, the

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Speaker 3: divide just gets wider and wider and wide.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 7: Because of course it also reaffirms what the QAnon people think,

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Speaker 7: and a lot of Trump.

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Speaker 4: Supporters, which is that the Secret Service?

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Speaker 7: How did they miss it? People said they saw the sniper,

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Speaker 7: they tried to alert police and nothing was done. How

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Speaker 7: did it happen?

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Speaker 2: And they're blaming the Biden campaigns directly, So again, it

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Speaker 2: just shows how far we've gone in denying the humanity

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Speaker 2: of just a man.

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Speaker 4: Denying reality.

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Speaker 2: Okay, in the wake of the shooting, the US Democrats

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Speaker 2: pulled their multi multi million dollar ad campaign that they're

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Speaker 2: running at the minute, which attacks Trump and calls him

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Speaker 2: all the things that we have established that is.

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Speaker 3: Can I ask about that it Has Trump pulled anything?

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Speaker 7: No, immediately, I'm sure it's out already. There'll be images

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Speaker 7: of him bloody like that iconic even.

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Speaker 2: When the Republican Convention is about to start, and he

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Speaker 2: will be hailed a hero. The religious right are saying

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Speaker 2: this is proof that his presidency is ordained by God,

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Speaker 2: et cetera. Anyway, let's move over to the other side, which,

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Speaker 2: if we were recording this show on Friday, would have

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Speaker 2: been one we would have thought was the most unusual

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Speaker 2: development we'd had in a while in American politics, which

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Speaker 2: involves George Clooney. So while we're talking obviously about what

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Speaker 2: the assassination attempt has done for Trump's chances, in the

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Speaker 2: before the rally, many smart voices were saying that over

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Speaker 2: on the other side, President Biden would likely step down

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Speaker 2: on Sunday or Monday, not that he wants to. He

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Speaker 2: has been very publicly digging in and saying that only

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Speaker 2: the Lord Almighty can get him to step down. But

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Speaker 2: Democrats have been saying that in this case, the Lord

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Speaker 2: Almighty might take the form of George Clooney, who wrote

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Speaker 2: a column in The New York Times last Thursday headlined

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Speaker 2: I love Joe Biden, but we need a new nominee,

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Speaker 2: and in it he spoke about how he was one

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Speaker 2: of the main players at a big fundraiser for Biden

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Speaker 2: in June, and he said, I love Joe Biden as

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Speaker 2: a senator, as a vice president. I believe in his character,

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Speaker 2: I believe in his morals, etc. But the one battle

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Speaker 2: he cannot fight is the fight against time. None of

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Speaker 2: us can. It's devastating to say it, but the Joe

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Speaker 2: Biden I was with three weeks ago at the fundraiser

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Speaker 2: was not the Joe big fucking deal Biden of twenty ten.

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Speaker 2: He wasn't even the Joe Biden of twenty twenty. He

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Speaker 2: was the same man we all witnessed at the debate.

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Speaker 2: Clooney then name checked his choices. He interestingly put the

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Speaker 2: name Wes More first to obviously who he thinks should

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Speaker 2: get it. Let's say, from We's Moore, he says, and

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Speaker 2: Kamala Harris and Gretchen Whitner and governors and Andy Bscher

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Speaker 2: and so on and so on. Mia, Why does it

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Speaker 2: matter even a little bit what George Clooney thinks about

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Speaker 2: the president of the United.

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Speaker 7: States, Because there are two things that are required to

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Speaker 7: win the presidency. The first is people voting for you,

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Speaker 7: but the second is money to help make that happen.

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Speaker 7: And the donors on both sides have incredible power, not

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Speaker 7: necessarily in saying we want the candidate to be this person,

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Speaker 7: but there are certain candidates that will get more money

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Speaker 7: being donated to the party and other candidates who won't.

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Speaker 7: So for e then in a tap off, they're saying

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Speaker 7: we're going to turn the tap off, which is understandable

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Speaker 7: because if you believe that the wrong person is, you know,

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Speaker 7: driving the car, you're not going to keep paying for petrol,

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Speaker 7: you're going to say, well, why you're just going.

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Speaker 4: To drive the car off a cliff.

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Speaker 7: So with Joe Biden and why it could be George Clooney,

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Speaker 7: there've been a lot of talks in the same way

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Speaker 7: that people say, oh, Oprah should run for president, Michelle

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Speaker 7: Obama should run for president, George Clooney should run for president.

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Speaker 7: I don't think that's ever going to happen. But he

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Speaker 7: has been a power player behind the scenes. He's good

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Speaker 7: mates with Obama, and he's been a big supporter of

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Speaker 7: Joe Biden and that influence because it's not just the

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Speaker 7: money that George personally donates. It's when you've got big

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Speaker 7: Hollywood stars, people then pay money to go and be

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Speaker 7: at those fundraisers.

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Speaker 4: That's how it works.

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Speaker 7: So they're rain makers as well as being providers of

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Speaker 7: rain themselves. The position that the Democratic Party are in

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Speaker 7: that's difficult is that it's all relying on what Joe

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Speaker 7: Biden decides to do. And of course this weekend's changed everything.

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Speaker 7: But if everyone in the Democratic Party, if the members

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Speaker 7: of Congress say he needs to step down, and he doesn't,

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Speaker 7: then they're screwed. They've screwed their Party. So it's like

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Speaker 7: everybody's in this circle of being paralyzed because they have

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Speaker 7: to wait for it to be his decision. Now, George

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Speaker 7: Clooney doesn't care, like it doesn't matter. He can say

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Speaker 7: what he wants because he's a donor.

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Speaker 2: But Clooney is not just Clooney. Clooney is representative of

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Speaker 2: He is so embedded in the higher up Democratic Party

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Speaker 2: that he would not have written that without their endorsement,

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Speaker 2: their blessing, without So basically he's being a mouthpiece for

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Speaker 2: a large number of very senior Democrats.

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Speaker 7: Ye.

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Speaker 2: Now Biden has lost them. Yes, and it will be very,

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Speaker 2: very hard for Biden to keep holding on. What do

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Speaker 2: we think that Trump's assassination attempt does?

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Speaker 4: Though?

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Speaker 2: Imagining that Biden's getting under more pressure every minute and

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Speaker 2: plans are afoot and Pelosi isn't even really backing him anymore,

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Speaker 2: and Obama hasn't distanced himself from the Clooney column, then

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Speaker 2: do you go, well, now, it would be disrespectful for

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Speaker 2: us to do anything about anything for what a day,

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Speaker 2: a week, a month, And is a change of candidate

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Speaker 2: actually the best way to get the story back on you?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they need a narrative because there's no story right now.

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Speaker 3: And even we were watching this morning, Joe Biden addressed

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Speaker 3: the nation the nation about what happened with Trump, and

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Speaker 3: he is just so unint bying. It is more of

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Speaker 3: what we've been seeing, which is this, it's just sad.

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Speaker 4: Every time he talks, it's sad.

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Speaker 3: Last week, I don't think we even talked about the

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Speaker 3: fact that he mixed up the names of warring presidents,

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Speaker 3: which is like we're talking about like steaks foreign policy

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Speaker 3: that you just go what's going on? And over the

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Speaker 3: weekend I kept thinking with Biden. What the Democrats are

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Speaker 3: saying at the moment is that we would rather put

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Speaker 3: a white, eighty one year old man who can't string

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Speaker 3: a sentence together and mixes up names and is very

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Speaker 3: uninspiring and every press conference before we would risk a

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Speaker 3: woman of color. And I know that a lot of

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Speaker 3: people have a lot of analysis of Kamala, but I

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Speaker 3: don't think that you can unpick but those two things.

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Speaker 7: No one's saying that except Joe Biden. He's literally he's

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Speaker 7: holding his fire party and could be argued the country

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Speaker 7: hostage because no one thinks that like nobody, there is

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Speaker 7: nobody who is saying that he's a better chance than her,

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Speaker 7: nobody within the Democratic Party.

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Speaker 4: That's why it's so fastical.

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Speaker 7: Now in terms of how it's changed what happened on

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Speaker 7: Sunday in the attempt at assassination. It's good news and bad

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Speaker 7: news for Biden. The good news for him personally is

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Speaker 7: that it's changed the focus from him needing to step aside,

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Speaker 7: and all he's trying to do is slow walk this

436
00:22:28,567 --> 00:22:31,407
Speaker 7: and delay, delay, delay, until it becomes sort of too

437
00:22:31,527 --> 00:22:34,927
Speaker 7: late to change candidates. So this has been very effective

438
00:22:34,967 --> 00:22:38,367
Speaker 7: for that because it would seem to be unseemly. For example,

439
00:22:38,447 --> 00:22:41,727
Speaker 7: imagine if George Clooney's op ed came out tomorrow or

440
00:22:41,727 --> 00:22:43,607
Speaker 7: the next day, or even at the end of this week.

441
00:22:44,047 --> 00:22:46,927
Speaker 7: So all of that has been put on hold. And

442
00:22:46,967 --> 00:22:51,327
Speaker 7: also it's given him the chance to present as a stately, reassuring,

443
00:22:52,207 --> 00:22:55,047
Speaker 7: calming figure like whenever there's any kind of unrest. It

444
00:22:55,327 --> 00:22:58,167
Speaker 7: is very good for incumbent prime ministers and presidents because

445
00:22:58,207 --> 00:23:00,847
Speaker 7: everyone freaked out and they just want to be calmed.

446
00:23:00,927 --> 00:23:02,927
Speaker 3: But then he said, like he said in the first

447
00:23:02,927 --> 00:23:05,927
Speaker 3: press conference, this is unheard of, and I thought this

448
00:23:05,967 --> 00:23:08,887
Speaker 3: has happened in your lifetime. Joe Biden. You have seen

449
00:23:09,447 --> 00:23:12,887
Speaker 3: one president JFK be assassinated. You've seen Ronald Reagan with

450
00:23:12,887 --> 00:23:18,807
Speaker 3: an attempted assassination like not the right language, but on Trump,

451
00:23:18,927 --> 00:23:21,087
Speaker 3: I just kept thinking that there are a few things.

452
00:23:21,247 --> 00:23:23,367
Speaker 3: If you've been to the US, something that will strike

453
00:23:23,447 --> 00:23:28,567
Speaker 3: you as very different to Australia is the incredible outward

454
00:23:28,647 --> 00:23:32,847
Speaker 3: display of respect for war veterans everywhere at a sporting match.

455
00:23:33,487 --> 00:23:35,127
Speaker 3: If you have put your body on the line for

456
00:23:35,207 --> 00:23:38,047
Speaker 3: your country. There is little that Americans respect more than that.

457
00:23:39,047 --> 00:23:41,207
Speaker 3: And that is how Trump will now be seen as

458
00:23:41,247 --> 00:23:43,607
Speaker 3: a man who nearly lost his life, as a hero

459
00:23:43,687 --> 00:23:47,607
Speaker 3: who nearly lost his life while fighting for America, and

460
00:23:47,687 --> 00:23:50,047
Speaker 3: that is going to have an enormous impact on the

461
00:23:50,047 --> 00:24:03,807
Speaker 3: rest of this campaign.

462
00:24:06,727 --> 00:24:09,087
Speaker 4: Katy Perry has released the first single from her new

463
00:24:09,487 --> 00:24:12,487
Speaker 4: and it's an anthem about feminism that's made a lot

464
00:24:12,527 --> 00:24:17,447
Speaker 4: of people mad. Here is the song, and we're lucky

465
00:24:17,607 --> 00:24:25,527
Speaker 4: to believe it, Goddy wamb It's pretty catchy.

466
00:24:26,287 --> 00:24:28,487
Speaker 7: You'll be singing that in your head, I guarantee for

467
00:24:28,527 --> 00:24:30,447
Speaker 7: the next few days. But it is the video, not

468
00:24:30,527 --> 00:24:33,007
Speaker 7: the song so much that everyone's talking about.

469
00:24:33,167 --> 00:24:35,727
Speaker 3: I also have some thoughts about the song. Back continue yeah,

470
00:24:36,447 --> 00:24:37,327
Speaker 3: look it was.

471
00:24:37,847 --> 00:24:41,527
Speaker 7: The video was roundly slammed across the internet after it

472
00:24:41,607 --> 00:24:45,007
Speaker 7: dropped on the weekend for being a really cynical use

473
00:24:45,007 --> 00:24:48,207
Speaker 7: of empty feminism to get attention and sell music at

474
00:24:48,287 --> 00:24:51,247
Speaker 7: the expense of women. And there are two main reasons

475
00:24:51,287 --> 00:24:54,087
Speaker 7: for this, which I'm going to unpack to describe the

476
00:24:54,327 --> 00:24:58,727
Speaker 7: video itself. It starts with, you know, the very famous

477
00:24:58,807 --> 00:25:02,887
Speaker 7: image in feminism of Rosy the Riveter. It's the illustration

478
00:25:03,007 --> 00:25:05,567
Speaker 7: of the woman with the red bandana in her hair

479
00:25:05,847 --> 00:25:08,967
Speaker 7: and a work shirt and she's got her bicep, and

480
00:25:09,367 --> 00:25:12,447
Speaker 7: it shows Katie dressed like a sexy version of her

481
00:25:13,167 --> 00:25:16,007
Speaker 7: on a building site with a whole lot of other

482
00:25:16,047 --> 00:25:20,767
Speaker 7: sexy construction workers in teeny tiny hot pants and bikini tops.

483
00:25:20,487 --> 00:25:24,847
Speaker 2: Really see every day on the street, yeah, work boots.

484
00:25:25,247 --> 00:25:27,767
Speaker 7: Yes, So they sort of dance for a while and

485
00:25:27,807 --> 00:25:30,447
Speaker 7: she's got this bikini top on that's in stars and stripes,

486
00:25:30,727 --> 00:25:33,647
Speaker 7: and then an anvil comes from the sky like kind

487
00:25:33,647 --> 00:25:35,967
Speaker 7: of in a road run a cartoon. It sort of

488
00:25:36,007 --> 00:25:39,127
Speaker 7: squashes Katie Perry, and it's like, this is the reset,

489
00:25:39,207 --> 00:25:40,207
Speaker 7: and so it's going to be.

490
00:25:40,087 --> 00:25:41,847
Speaker 4: Like, well, what's the world like after it?

491
00:25:41,927 --> 00:25:42,087
Speaker 3: Oh?

492
00:25:42,167 --> 00:25:44,967
Speaker 4: Okay, So it was tongue in cheek sati hah.

493
00:25:45,127 --> 00:25:47,567
Speaker 7: But then the world afterwards is kind of just the same.

494
00:25:48,567 --> 00:25:52,047
Speaker 7: But like you know, sexy women including Katy Perry, like

495
00:25:52,087 --> 00:25:55,687
Speaker 7: in bikini and dressed like a biomechanical.

496
00:25:55,007 --> 00:25:57,767
Speaker 4: Horse that sex toys, that was driving.

497
00:25:58,167 --> 00:26:00,247
Speaker 2: They were sex toys. They were agues.

498
00:26:01,007 --> 00:26:04,527
Speaker 7: So the two main criticisms that she's using this empty

499
00:26:04,607 --> 00:26:07,607
Speaker 7: feminism in this cynical weight attempt to get attention.

500
00:26:08,287 --> 00:26:10,247
Speaker 4: The first is that the sthetic of the video is.

501
00:26:10,327 --> 00:26:12,487
Speaker 7: Very much focused literally on the tits and ass of

502
00:26:12,567 --> 00:26:15,167
Speaker 7: Katie Perry and the other women in the video, and

503
00:26:15,247 --> 00:26:18,247
Speaker 7: she says that that's ironic because they are making fun

504
00:26:18,287 --> 00:26:21,927
Speaker 7: of the male gaze while weirdly playing up to the

505
00:26:21,927 --> 00:26:25,247
Speaker 7: male gaze though. And the second thing is that the

506
00:26:25,407 --> 00:26:28,127
Speaker 7: song was co produced and co written by doctor Luke,

507
00:26:28,207 --> 00:26:30,767
Speaker 7: and he is a hit maker for a music producer

508
00:26:30,807 --> 00:26:34,807
Speaker 7: who was accused of sexual assault by his former protege Kesha,

509
00:26:35,207 --> 00:26:38,687
Speaker 7: which he denied, and Kesh's lawsuit claimed that doctor Luke

510
00:26:38,727 --> 00:26:41,927
Speaker 7: drugged and raped her on two occasions, made threats against

511
00:26:41,967 --> 00:26:45,367
Speaker 7: her and her family, and called her derogatory names. She

512
00:26:45,407 --> 00:26:47,607
Speaker 7: also said this the way he spoke about her trigger

513
00:26:47,647 --> 00:26:48,527
Speaker 7: and eating disorder.

514
00:26:48,967 --> 00:26:49,487
Speaker 4: The case was.

515
00:26:49,487 --> 00:26:52,367
Speaker 7: Eventually settled with no conviction or admission of guilt on

516
00:26:52,407 --> 00:26:54,647
Speaker 7: his part. But Katie Perry's decision to work with him

517
00:26:54,687 --> 00:26:58,127
Speaker 7: on this song about female empowerment, which he co wrote

518
00:26:58,487 --> 00:27:02,727
Speaker 7: and produced, is an interesting one, and she obviously predicted

519
00:27:02,767 --> 00:27:05,407
Speaker 7: the blowback about this because yesterday she released a defense

520
00:27:05,487 --> 00:27:08,247
Speaker 7: of the video as being satire that was actually taken

521
00:27:08,727 --> 00:27:11,247
Speaker 7: on set while the video itself was being filmed.

522
00:27:11,247 --> 00:27:14,127
Speaker 4: Here's what she had to say, girl Boss, shit, you

523
00:27:14,207 --> 00:27:19,127
Speaker 4: can do it. You go girl, you were born to shine, and.

524
00:27:19,047 --> 00:27:23,167
Speaker 5: We're kind of just having fun being a bit sarcastic

525
00:27:23,247 --> 00:27:27,567
Speaker 5: with it. It's very slapstick, very on the nose, and

526
00:27:27,647 --> 00:27:31,967
Speaker 5: with this set, it's like, oh, we're not about the malegates,

527
00:27:32,007 --> 00:27:34,767
Speaker 5: but we really are about the male gaze, and we're

528
00:27:34,767 --> 00:27:37,727
Speaker 5: really overplaying it and on the nose because I'm about

529
00:27:37,767 --> 00:27:41,527
Speaker 5: to get smashed, which is like a reset, a reset

530
00:27:41,687 --> 00:27:47,567
Speaker 5: for me and a reset from my idea of feminine divine.

531
00:27:47,727 --> 00:27:51,967
Speaker 5: And it's a whole different world we go to after.

532
00:27:51,687 --> 00:27:54,367
Speaker 7: This, except it's not really just a few sort of

533
00:27:54,527 --> 00:27:59,287
Speaker 7: comments that are indicative from out louders and others. So

534
00:27:59,367 --> 00:28:02,087
Speaker 7: you're dressed like every male fantasy. How is this empowering

535
00:28:02,127 --> 00:28:04,287
Speaker 7: for women. You're saying, as a woman, you need to

536
00:28:04,287 --> 00:28:06,087
Speaker 7: have a good body and show all your skin to

537
00:28:06,087 --> 00:28:08,567
Speaker 7: be strong. This is so nineties. What about image for

538
00:28:08,607 --> 00:28:11,007
Speaker 7: young girls everyone where? Don't you have a daughter? Is

539
00:28:11,047 --> 00:28:13,807
Speaker 7: this what you aspire her to be? Someone else said

540
00:28:13,847 --> 00:28:17,567
Speaker 7: a woman's empowerment song produced by doctor Luke call Alanis Morissette.

541
00:28:17,567 --> 00:28:21,007
Speaker 7: Because this shit is ironic, and then someone else saying

542
00:28:21,247 --> 00:28:24,287
Speaker 7: is supposed to make us feel empowered. Nothing says female

543
00:28:24,327 --> 00:28:27,327
Speaker 7: empowerment like holding a bedazzle drill. This is the most

544
00:28:27,367 --> 00:28:30,247
Speaker 7: surface level fake feminist shit I've seen in a long time.

545
00:28:30,327 --> 00:28:32,447
Speaker 2: One of my favorite comments on that post was, for

546
00:28:32,487 --> 00:28:35,047
Speaker 2: God's sake, you haven't even put the drill bits in correctly.

547
00:28:37,487 --> 00:28:40,407
Speaker 7: Jesse, How did you feel when I sent the video

548
00:28:40,527 --> 00:28:41,527
Speaker 7: to you over the weekend.

549
00:28:42,047 --> 00:28:45,527
Speaker 3: I don't get it. I keep watching it over and

550
00:28:45,567 --> 00:28:46,807
Speaker 3: over again. Then I was like, I need to know

551
00:28:46,847 --> 00:28:49,087
Speaker 3: who wrote this, because I believe chat GPT wrote this.

552
00:28:49,127 --> 00:28:52,447
Speaker 3: It's like you put in the video Feminist add them

553
00:28:52,567 --> 00:28:53,367
Speaker 3: twenty twenty four.

554
00:28:53,407 --> 00:28:56,887
Speaker 7: Well, doctor Luke, who was accused of sexual assault, wrote this, but.

555
00:28:57,127 --> 00:29:01,247
Speaker 3: It was so incoherent and bizarre that I was like

556
00:29:01,327 --> 00:29:03,087
Speaker 3: it it looks like a I has done this, But

557
00:29:03,127 --> 00:29:05,007
Speaker 3: then I looked at the six riders, four of which

558
00:29:05,007 --> 00:29:07,447
Speaker 3: a men, which is and the fact it took six

559
00:29:07,567 --> 00:29:10,287
Speaker 3: riders is kind of saying a lot. But even the

560
00:29:10,367 --> 00:29:13,367
Speaker 3: lyrics right are like it's a woman's world, which is

561
00:29:13,767 --> 00:29:17,967
Speaker 3: a meaningless statement. And in a US context when abortion

562
00:29:18,047 --> 00:29:20,127
Speaker 3: laws are being wound back, I think we probably require

563
00:29:20,167 --> 00:29:21,807
Speaker 3: something point here if we're going to be doing a

564
00:29:21,807 --> 00:29:25,847
Speaker 3: feminist anthem, it's being an activist without wanting to upset

565
00:29:25,887 --> 00:29:30,447
Speaker 3: anyone and say anything remotely controversial. And then she says

566
00:29:30,727 --> 00:29:34,607
Speaker 3: we ain't going away, and it's like where would women go?

567
00:29:35,087 --> 00:29:38,967
Speaker 3: Like women are here, therefore feminism they'refore tits Like I

568
00:29:39,007 --> 00:29:43,847
Speaker 3: don't understand. Also, yeah, what point we're making? So I've

569
00:29:43,847 --> 00:29:47,367
Speaker 3: rewatched it like one hundred times, and what I am

570
00:29:47,447 --> 00:29:51,447
Speaker 3: understanding is that feminism is an aesthetic I think, which

571
00:29:51,487 --> 00:29:55,727
Speaker 3: is rosy the riveter, but also in a way it's

572
00:29:55,847 --> 00:29:59,887
Speaker 3: perfect because it is an accurate reflection of the mess

573
00:29:59,927 --> 00:30:02,127
Speaker 3: that is the current state of feminism. It is a

574
00:30:02,127 --> 00:30:04,727
Speaker 3: woman with boobs and a male gaze, holding a vibrator

575
00:30:04,807 --> 00:30:08,407
Speaker 3: and a tool belt and trying to say, Jesse, is

576
00:30:08,407 --> 00:30:10,407
Speaker 3: there something wrong with because I think she kind of

577
00:30:10,407 --> 00:30:12,127
Speaker 3: loves that this is where feminism is at.

578
00:30:11,967 --> 00:30:14,007
Speaker 2: Because I think when she said that bit about it's

579
00:30:14,007 --> 00:30:16,007
Speaker 2: not about the malgaze, but it is about the malgaze

580
00:30:16,087 --> 00:30:19,047
Speaker 2: is what we often talk about when you're on Instagram

581
00:30:19,087 --> 00:30:21,447
Speaker 2: or whatever and there's a picture of somebody saying blah

582
00:30:21,447 --> 00:30:23,807
Speaker 2: blah empowerment, but they're in their bikini with their bum.

583
00:30:23,967 --> 00:30:25,007
Speaker 2: That's what she's talking.

584
00:30:24,807 --> 00:30:27,007
Speaker 3: About, right, Is she critiquing that or I.

585
00:30:26,927 --> 00:30:29,287
Speaker 2: Think she's critiquing that. I think that's what she thinks

586
00:30:29,327 --> 00:30:29,847
Speaker 2: she's doing.

587
00:30:30,207 --> 00:30:32,727
Speaker 4: But it's not critique if you're part of it, like

588
00:30:32,887 --> 00:30:33,807
Speaker 4: law is it? To me?

589
00:30:33,927 --> 00:30:35,887
Speaker 7: It's like, you know when people they do it less

590
00:30:35,887 --> 00:30:37,807
Speaker 7: now because they get called out, But you know when

591
00:30:37,807 --> 00:30:41,287
Speaker 7: people post us a thirsty photo of like themselves in

592
00:30:41,287 --> 00:30:44,767
Speaker 7: a bikini from behind with their bum and it's like

593
00:30:45,487 --> 00:30:49,127
Speaker 7: just appreciating the beautiful sunset and tranquility and.

594
00:30:49,087 --> 00:30:51,367
Speaker 4: Feel so grateful for this holiday I've been able to.

595
00:30:51,447 --> 00:30:53,087
Speaker 7: It's like, you just want us to look at your bum,

596
00:30:53,167 --> 00:30:54,967
Speaker 7: which is fine, but you don't have to dress it

597
00:30:55,087 --> 00:30:58,727
Speaker 7: up in some message of empowerment or inspiration.

598
00:30:59,007 --> 00:31:00,567
Speaker 4: But you're just being thirsty.

599
00:31:00,607 --> 00:31:04,127
Speaker 7: Because we all live in a world where being validated

600
00:31:04,167 --> 00:31:05,687
Speaker 7: for looking hot is power.

601
00:31:05,927 --> 00:31:09,087
Speaker 2: Here's my question about Katie Perry. Right, she was one.

602
00:31:09,247 --> 00:31:12,807
Speaker 2: It's enormous, right If you think about it, you think

603
00:31:12,807 --> 00:31:15,447
Speaker 2: about kiss the Girl, obviously, but then you think about raw,

604
00:31:15,487 --> 00:31:18,687
Speaker 2: you think about firework, you think about Last Friday Night,

605
00:31:18,727 --> 00:31:21,287
Speaker 2: and all those that are so ingrained in our culture

606
00:31:21,327 --> 00:31:23,607
Speaker 2: that we could all sing them at any time. She

607
00:31:23,767 --> 00:31:27,287
Speaker 2: was a massive, massive deal. She was multi platinum selling.

608
00:31:27,567 --> 00:31:29,967
Speaker 2: She sold all the rights to her music last year

609
00:31:30,047 --> 00:31:33,167
Speaker 2: for two hundred and twenty five million dollars or something. Right, So,

610
00:31:33,847 --> 00:31:37,647
Speaker 2: Katy Perry was a big deal. Now she hasn't really

611
00:31:37,687 --> 00:31:39,887
Speaker 2: been a big deal for pretty much a decade. She's

612
00:31:39,887 --> 00:31:42,087
Speaker 2: been releasing music, but it's not really cutting through in

613
00:31:42,127 --> 00:31:45,247
Speaker 2: the same way. She is now thirty nine, she has

614
00:31:45,287 --> 00:31:50,247
Speaker 2: had a kid. She is very much coming back with

615
00:31:50,367 --> 00:31:53,207
Speaker 2: this album as the same Katy Perry as before. Because

616
00:31:53,527 --> 00:31:55,327
Speaker 2: one of the things to note about this is it's

617
00:31:55,327 --> 00:31:57,447
Speaker 2: not like Katie Perry wasn't playing with this kind of

618
00:31:57,447 --> 00:32:00,767
Speaker 2: imagery before. She definitely was, Like who could forget the

619
00:32:00,887 --> 00:32:03,007
Speaker 2: shooting whipped cream out of your boobs and all that

620
00:32:03,047 --> 00:32:06,127
Speaker 2: kind of stuff and all the suggestive lollipop licking and things.

621
00:32:06,807 --> 00:32:08,647
Speaker 2: What do you do if you're her, right, what do

622
00:32:08,727 --> 00:32:12,207
Speaker 2: you do if you are a female pop star and

623
00:32:12,327 --> 00:32:14,967
Speaker 2: we know how age is that industry is? We know

624
00:32:15,047 --> 00:32:17,447
Speaker 2: that every five minutes there's a Sabrina Carpenter, or there's

625
00:32:17,487 --> 00:32:21,127
Speaker 2: a Camilla Cabello, or there's a Charlie XCX. Pop music

626
00:32:21,247 --> 00:32:24,007
Speaker 2: is obsessed with young, more dominated by women than it's

627
00:32:24,047 --> 00:32:26,007
Speaker 2: ever been at any other time in history, which is great,

628
00:32:26,047 --> 00:32:29,927
Speaker 2: but still mostly young, with a few like elder outliers,

629
00:32:29,927 --> 00:32:31,927
Speaker 2: and I guess we could probably call Taylor Swift an

630
00:32:31,927 --> 00:32:35,847
Speaker 2: elder these station a mid thirties. What are you supposed

631
00:32:35,887 --> 00:32:38,967
Speaker 2: to do? Like, how does Katie Perry play that game?

632
00:32:39,047 --> 00:32:41,007
Speaker 2: Because I saw a lot of comments on this going

633
00:32:41,487 --> 00:32:45,087
Speaker 2: so sad. Is she having a midlife crisis? Isn't she

634
00:32:45,167 --> 00:32:45,887
Speaker 2: too old for this?

635
00:32:45,967 --> 00:32:46,127
Speaker 1: Now?

636
00:32:46,287 --> 00:32:49,287
Speaker 2: Da da da da da? What does a Katie Perry do?

637
00:32:49,927 --> 00:32:52,647
Speaker 7: I don't think it's the getting a gear off that

638
00:32:52,807 --> 00:32:55,727
Speaker 7: is particularly surprising, because I mean, Beyonce was naked on

639
00:32:55,727 --> 00:32:58,727
Speaker 7: a horse, and apart from me, everyone seemed to be

640
00:32:58,767 --> 00:33:02,327
Speaker 7: cool with that. Right, It's not the getting the gear off,

641
00:33:02,407 --> 00:33:04,767
Speaker 7: it's getting the gear off and saying you're doing it

642
00:33:04,767 --> 00:33:08,327
Speaker 7: in the service of feminism and empowerment. When actually, you've

643
00:33:08,367 --> 00:33:11,687
Speaker 7: just had quite the body transformation, and you want to

644
00:33:11,727 --> 00:33:13,847
Speaker 7: stay relevant, and the way to stay relevant in our

645
00:33:13,887 --> 00:33:16,967
Speaker 7: culture is to be considered hot.

646
00:33:17,127 --> 00:33:20,127
Speaker 4: But the beauty that oppress all of us.

647
00:33:20,167 --> 00:33:22,687
Speaker 3: And she's gone back to doctor Luke, and as well

648
00:33:22,727 --> 00:33:25,327
Speaker 3: as obviously what you said about kesher, he is sort

649
00:33:25,367 --> 00:33:27,247
Speaker 3: of who was with her when her career launched, right,

650
00:33:27,287 --> 00:33:29,687
Speaker 3: and then she separated herself from him. So that signals

651
00:33:29,727 --> 00:33:31,687
Speaker 3: to me, I want to go back to ten years

652
00:33:31,687 --> 00:33:33,847
Speaker 3: ago Katie Perry, when I made Bangers, when I made

653
00:33:33,887 --> 00:33:38,847
Speaker 3: absolute bangers. What Katie Perry probably isn't nailing is evolution.

654
00:33:39,607 --> 00:33:43,447
Speaker 3: And this looked like a single that could have been

655
00:33:43,527 --> 00:33:47,127
Speaker 3: on the same album maybe as Firework and Raw and

656
00:33:47,407 --> 00:33:51,327
Speaker 3: all of those, and the music industry and the culture

657
00:33:51,487 --> 00:33:55,567
Speaker 3: has evolved enormously, and even her look is almost exactly

658
00:33:55,687 --> 00:33:58,407
Speaker 3: the same. And she said, I think it's it used

659
00:33:58,407 --> 00:34:02,127
Speaker 3: to be. In her Twitter bio it said artist activist conscious,

660
00:34:02,447 --> 00:34:05,007
Speaker 3: and she's decided that she's going to do purposeful pop.

661
00:34:05,327 --> 00:34:07,367
Speaker 3: And to me, since she decided that.

662
00:34:07,647 --> 00:34:10,047
Speaker 7: But that's just also not true, like you can call

663
00:34:10,087 --> 00:34:12,487
Speaker 7: it purposeful pop. The only song and I agree she's

664
00:34:12,487 --> 00:34:14,727
Speaker 7: had bangers like Firework and all of those things, the

665
00:34:14,767 --> 00:34:18,007
Speaker 7: only one that was even mildly purposeful or transgressive was

666
00:34:18,047 --> 00:34:20,767
Speaker 7: I kissed a Girl and I liked it. And we've

667
00:34:20,807 --> 00:34:23,727
Speaker 7: sort of seen not really any evidence that she actually

668
00:34:23,767 --> 00:34:25,607
Speaker 7: ever was queer. Maybe she was, Maybe she was, and

669
00:34:25,727 --> 00:34:27,927
Speaker 7: that's not really any of our business. But that's the

670
00:34:28,167 --> 00:34:31,887
Speaker 7: only thing that she's done back then, I kiss a

671
00:34:31,927 --> 00:34:34,087
Speaker 7: Girl and I liked it. That's in any way transgressive

672
00:34:34,287 --> 00:34:37,807
Speaker 7: or purposeful or kind of empowering.

673
00:34:38,007 --> 00:34:42,007
Speaker 3: What that song did was ingratiate her with the LGBT

674
00:34:42,127 --> 00:34:45,687
Speaker 3: community who have really like followed her entire career, and

675
00:34:45,727 --> 00:34:48,687
Speaker 3: there's a theory that this was a real and you

676
00:34:48,727 --> 00:34:53,287
Speaker 3: can see that there's a lot of kind of LGBT.

677
00:34:53,487 --> 00:34:55,647
Speaker 7: That's what Again, it feels really tokenistic, like there's just

678
00:34:55,687 --> 00:34:59,847
Speaker 7: inexplicably a cutaway shot of two guys kissing. That doesn't

679
00:35:00,007 --> 00:35:02,567
Speaker 7: I mean, Madonna did that many many decades ago in

680
00:35:02,567 --> 00:35:05,927
Speaker 7: a way that felt authentic. People know when they're being manipulated,

681
00:35:05,967 --> 00:35:06,727
Speaker 7: they get it.

682
00:35:07,207 --> 00:35:12,407
Speaker 3: And we always been manipulated by pops. We are it is.

683
00:35:12,647 --> 00:35:15,367
Speaker 4: That's just not a sophisticated enough for tim. I quite

684
00:35:15,527 --> 00:35:18,127
Speaker 4: like the video. It's an overach do.

685
00:35:18,607 --> 00:35:21,087
Speaker 2: I watched it several times because I'm like my candy,

686
00:35:21,127 --> 00:35:23,447
Speaker 2: it's fun, like I like, it's fun right, pretty colors.

687
00:35:23,447 --> 00:35:26,727
Speaker 2: I cannot forgive the doctor luke bit. I just think

688
00:35:26,767 --> 00:35:29,767
Speaker 2: that that is the biggest mistake, is that she's talking

689
00:35:29,767 --> 00:35:32,287
Speaker 2: a lot about the feminine, divine and all that. Then

690
00:35:32,367 --> 00:35:34,647
Speaker 2: work with an all female team, do something like that

691
00:35:34,647 --> 00:35:36,207
Speaker 2: that would be more interesting, but.

692
00:35:36,327 --> 00:35:39,807
Speaker 4: Have four men, right, you know what?

693
00:35:39,927 --> 00:35:43,127
Speaker 2: It feels like a little bit because in that clip

694
00:35:43,127 --> 00:35:45,327
Speaker 2: that you played before me or where she's talking about

695
00:35:45,327 --> 00:35:49,127
Speaker 2: how it's satire in her mind, I think she's trying

696
00:35:49,207 --> 00:35:52,767
Speaker 2: to be like that ironic gen Z thing of like

697
00:35:52,887 --> 00:35:55,927
Speaker 2: girl bossing, you know how it's like been a bit reclaimed,

698
00:35:55,967 --> 00:35:57,927
Speaker 2: you know how, like Emily Verner, my our friend and

699
00:35:58,607 --> 00:36:01,407
Speaker 2: co host on the pod, will like post pictures of

700
00:36:01,447 --> 00:36:03,887
Speaker 2: herself on a big workday going girl bossing, and it's

701
00:36:03,927 --> 00:36:05,967
Speaker 2: kind of like slightly ironic because we all know that

702
00:36:06,007 --> 00:36:08,967
Speaker 2: girls feminism is on the nose and it's gone, but

703
00:36:09,287 --> 00:36:12,087
Speaker 2: they're like claiming it back. And I think she's trying

704
00:36:12,127 --> 00:36:15,487
Speaker 2: to do all those things, but it just somehow feels

705
00:36:16,167 --> 00:36:20,087
Speaker 2: cheesy off because the proof of this will be in

706
00:36:20,407 --> 00:36:21,287
Speaker 2: is it going to be a hit?

707
00:36:21,407 --> 00:36:21,807
Speaker 4: This song?

708
00:36:21,967 --> 00:36:24,687
Speaker 3: And I feel like it might be even more derivative

709
00:36:24,927 --> 00:36:28,687
Speaker 3: the girl Boss thing. But this feels like Barbie. It's

710
00:36:28,727 --> 00:36:31,887
Speaker 3: looked at the success of Barbie and gone, we can

711
00:36:32,167 --> 00:36:35,967
Speaker 3: use a Barbie doll as a signal of empowerment. And

712
00:36:36,007 --> 00:36:39,767
Speaker 3: the song almost feels like a chat GPT rendition of.

713
00:36:39,807 --> 00:36:43,767
Speaker 2: The Barbie message We're all the President's girl, Yeah yeah,

714
00:36:43,887 --> 00:36:45,927
Speaker 2: and the thing about how hard our lives are and

715
00:36:45,927 --> 00:36:46,607
Speaker 2: blah blah blah.

716
00:36:46,647 --> 00:36:48,447
Speaker 3: It feels like she's taken that and gone, Okay, this

717
00:36:48,487 --> 00:36:51,887
Speaker 3: is a cultural moment. I'm going to try and go

718
00:36:51,967 --> 00:36:55,527
Speaker 3: with that, But it doesn't have the same depth or

719
00:36:55,727 --> 00:36:57,367
Speaker 3: grit to it. It hasn't landed.

720
00:36:57,407 --> 00:36:59,207
Speaker 7: I agree, and I think, look, I'm just going to

721
00:36:59,247 --> 00:37:02,247
Speaker 7: say the quiet part out loud. Her body looks very

722
00:37:02,247 --> 00:37:04,487
Speaker 7: different to the way that it used to, and I

723
00:37:04,487 --> 00:37:08,327
Speaker 7: think she's really feeling a lot of validation based on

724
00:37:08,407 --> 00:37:11,087
Speaker 7: how her body looks like. We saw some photos of

725
00:37:11,127 --> 00:37:13,807
Speaker 7: her appearing at fashion Week last week or the week before,

726
00:37:14,287 --> 00:37:17,407
Speaker 7: and she was wearing some panty hose or some tights

727
00:37:17,447 --> 00:37:20,847
Speaker 7: that were all ladded nothing and an open, full length

728
00:37:20,927 --> 00:37:24,887
Speaker 7: like fur coat. Now, Katie Perry, I would challenge you

729
00:37:24,927 --> 00:37:27,207
Speaker 7: a little bit on the fact that she's always done

730
00:37:27,247 --> 00:37:29,047
Speaker 7: like the whipped cream out of the bra and stuff,

731
00:37:29,087 --> 00:37:31,967
Speaker 7: but in a very kind of fun way, Like remember

732
00:37:32,007 --> 00:37:34,767
Speaker 7: she would go to the met gala dress like a Hamburger,

733
00:37:35,447 --> 00:37:39,847
Speaker 7: or like she was very much in dress, very ott,

734
00:37:40,207 --> 00:37:43,647
Speaker 7: but not as body con and not as body revealing

735
00:37:44,127 --> 00:37:47,127
Speaker 7: as she has been in this new iteration of herself

736
00:37:47,447 --> 00:37:51,047
Speaker 7: where her body does look very, very different. And again

737
00:37:51,167 --> 00:37:53,927
Speaker 7: she's part of the game that we all are forced

738
00:37:53,967 --> 00:37:56,767
Speaker 7: to play in terms of beauty standards and what is

739
00:37:56,807 --> 00:37:59,887
Speaker 7: rewarded in our culture. But I think where people are

740
00:37:59,887 --> 00:38:03,207
Speaker 7: getting their hackles up is that she is exploiting that

741
00:38:04,247 --> 00:38:08,807
Speaker 7: and pretending that it's for every woman when it's actually.

742
00:38:08,527 --> 00:38:09,687
Speaker 4: Just for her.

743
00:38:10,767 --> 00:38:14,487
Speaker 7: One thing that it's important to note is the like

744
00:38:14,567 --> 00:38:19,207
Speaker 7: the glee with which people leap on this in some places,

745
00:38:19,327 --> 00:38:24,327
Speaker 7: and how it descends into it like really disparaging, misogynistic,

746
00:38:25,247 --> 00:38:29,167
Speaker 7: nasty commentary about her personally instead of recognizing that, as

747
00:38:29,207 --> 00:38:32,367
Speaker 7: you said whole, it's really hard to reinvent yourself and

748
00:38:32,407 --> 00:38:36,047
Speaker 7: be a woman in the entertainment industry at any age,

749
00:38:36,087 --> 00:38:39,007
Speaker 7: but particularly as you hit forty and beyond.

750
00:38:39,207 --> 00:38:42,327
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I agree with the criticism, and obviously this

751
00:38:42,407 --> 00:38:44,847
Speaker 3: is an album it'd warrants review, the culture is going

752
00:38:44,887 --> 00:38:47,247
Speaker 3: to be talking about it. But I read one that

753
00:38:47,367 --> 00:38:50,807
Speaker 3: was kind of mocking her for being an American Idol judge,

754
00:38:50,847 --> 00:38:52,767
Speaker 3: which I thought was kind of a low blow. And

755
00:38:53,007 --> 00:38:55,367
Speaker 3: she's a new mum, and she's Orlando Bloom's wife, and

756
00:38:55,807 --> 00:38:58,527
Speaker 3: the tone which was applied to it, I just sort

757
00:38:58,567 --> 00:39:01,447
Speaker 3: of went, do we talk about men in the same

758
00:39:01,487 --> 00:39:03,847
Speaker 3: way or is this a little bit of fun that

759
00:39:03,887 --> 00:39:06,767
Speaker 3: we have with a thirty nine year old woman who

760
00:39:06,847 --> 00:39:10,407
Speaker 3: is clearly trying exactly there are men? Yeah, Like I

761
00:39:10,447 --> 00:39:14,567
Speaker 3: reckon that there's been more written about Katy Perry's attempt to,

762
00:39:14,847 --> 00:39:17,927
Speaker 3: you know, I don't know, make feminism sexy than there

763
00:39:17,967 --> 00:39:21,007
Speaker 3: has been about doctor Luke. Like doctor Luke is he

764
00:39:21,007 --> 00:39:21,967
Speaker 3: gets the odd article?

765
00:39:22,087 --> 00:39:23,967
Speaker 7: Oh no, there was a lot written about him at

766
00:39:23,967 --> 00:39:26,927
Speaker 7: the time. There honestly was. That's why people are so surprised.

767
00:39:26,967 --> 00:39:29,407
Speaker 7: It's not like that was a small story that flew. No.

768
00:39:29,687 --> 00:39:31,527
Speaker 3: But I think that men who do much worse. This

769
00:39:31,607 --> 00:39:33,487
Speaker 3: is a career misstep. This isn't a crime.

770
00:39:33,647 --> 00:39:35,807
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, of course. I don't think anyone's prosecuted. You

771
00:39:35,847 --> 00:39:37,967
Speaker 4: just need to go to prison, let's be clear.

772
00:39:38,607 --> 00:39:41,407
Speaker 7: But I think it's really just reflective of that disconnect

773
00:39:41,727 --> 00:39:45,087
Speaker 7: between how people are smarter than that, Like, you can't

774
00:39:45,087 --> 00:39:47,607
Speaker 7: just feed people one thing and call it another and

775
00:39:47,687 --> 00:39:51,167
Speaker 7: expect them to buy it. So I hate the term

776
00:39:51,287 --> 00:39:54,007
Speaker 7: calling out, but I think people are just drawing attention

777
00:39:54,127 --> 00:39:56,967
Speaker 7: to the contradiction here, and even though she's trying to

778
00:39:56,967 --> 00:39:58,727
Speaker 7: own it and say it's satire.

779
00:39:59,327 --> 00:40:01,647
Speaker 4: Oh, it's a little bit tricky.

780
00:40:01,847 --> 00:40:04,647
Speaker 3: Clara and I actually did an episode on Canceled recently

781
00:40:04,687 --> 00:40:07,767
Speaker 3: about Katy Perry about her She's got like a weird

782
00:40:07,807 --> 00:40:10,087
Speaker 3: feud with Taylor Swift that happened for a few years,

783
00:40:10,247 --> 00:40:13,447
Speaker 3: this awkward transition to purposeful pop that we've touched on,

784
00:40:13,847 --> 00:40:16,327
Speaker 3: the regrets about her early music. She has said that

785
00:40:16,367 --> 00:40:18,207
Speaker 3: she would phrase I kissed a girl very.

786
00:40:18,087 --> 00:40:20,367
Speaker 2: Different now it hasn't aged, It hasn't.

787
00:40:20,087 --> 00:40:23,047
Speaker 3: Actually aged that well, and a highly publicized court case.

788
00:40:23,087 --> 00:40:24,527
Speaker 3: To listen to that, there is a link in our

789
00:40:24,567 --> 00:40:25,007
Speaker 3: show notes.

790
00:40:25,127 --> 00:40:27,247
Speaker 2: I think it's hard being a female pop star, Oh

791
00:40:27,367 --> 00:40:34,527
Speaker 2: so hard. Every Tuesday and Thursday, we drop new segments

792
00:40:34,567 --> 00:40:38,287
Speaker 2: of Momma Mia out Loud just for Momma Mia subscribers.

793
00:40:38,807 --> 00:40:40,647
Speaker 2: Follow the link in the show notes to get your

794
00:40:40,727 --> 00:40:43,447
Speaker 2: daily dose of out Loud and a big Thank you

795
00:40:43,607 --> 00:40:48,287
Speaker 2: to all our current subscribers.

796
00:40:49,847 --> 00:40:52,487
Speaker 3: We woke up to the news this morning that Shannondohity,

797
00:40:52,607 --> 00:40:55,647
Speaker 3: aged fifty three, died after a decade long battle with

798
00:40:55,687 --> 00:40:59,167
Speaker 3: breast cancer, and despite her illness, her husband made her

799
00:40:59,207 --> 00:41:02,687
Speaker 3: suffer until the very end. Shannondohity is best known for

800
00:41:02,727 --> 00:41:04,727
Speaker 3: her roles in nine O two one zero and Charmed,

801
00:41:05,007 --> 00:41:07,847
Speaker 3: and in twenty fifteen, in her early forties, she was

802
00:41:07,887 --> 00:41:12,087
Speaker 3: diagnosed with breast cancer. Over the years, she documented a

803
00:41:12,127 --> 00:41:16,007
Speaker 3: lot of her experience with treatment, from surgery to radiation,

804
00:41:16,527 --> 00:41:19,927
Speaker 3: very publicly, and we knew that her cancer had spread.

805
00:41:20,487 --> 00:41:23,767
Speaker 3: Just last year, she launched a podcast where she revealed

806
00:41:23,807 --> 00:41:27,087
Speaker 3: that when she went into surgery to remove her brain tumor,

807
00:41:27,647 --> 00:41:30,807
Speaker 3: it was just after she'd discovered that her husband was

808
00:41:30,887 --> 00:41:31,487
Speaker 3: cheating on her.

809
00:41:31,687 --> 00:41:35,447
Speaker 1: I had brain surgery in twenty twenty three as well,

810
00:41:35,527 --> 00:41:39,127
Speaker 1: and I went in to that surgery early in the morning,

811
00:41:39,527 --> 00:41:43,647
Speaker 1: and I went in after I found out that, you know,

812
00:41:43,767 --> 00:41:48,287
Speaker 1: my marriage was essentially over, that my husband had been

813
00:41:48,327 --> 00:41:50,447
Speaker 1: carrying on an affair for two years.

814
00:41:50,687 --> 00:41:53,767
Speaker 3: She had been with kurt Iswarienko for fourteen years. When

815
00:41:53,767 --> 00:41:56,847
Speaker 3: she discovered he'd been having a two year affair. She

816
00:41:56,927 --> 00:42:00,527
Speaker 3: was heartbroken and filed for divorce in April twenty twenty three,

817
00:42:00,687 --> 00:42:04,087
Speaker 3: but more than a year on it still hadn't been finalized.

818
00:42:04,487 --> 00:42:09,047
Speaker 3: She wanted spousal support and claimed in court documents that

819
00:42:09,127 --> 00:42:12,807
Speaker 3: she was trying to pay for all this treatment while

820
00:42:12,847 --> 00:42:16,647
Speaker 3: he was on what sounds like their plane with another woman,

821
00:42:17,207 --> 00:42:20,407
Speaker 3: going around the world at Gucci, spending money on jewelry.

822
00:42:21,047 --> 00:42:23,487
Speaker 7: I had no idea about this story. I knew she

823
00:42:23,607 --> 00:42:26,327
Speaker 7: was unwell, but I had no idea.

824
00:42:26,407 --> 00:42:29,847
Speaker 3: In the court documents, she said, it is abundantly clear

825
00:42:29,887 --> 00:42:33,287
Speaker 3: to me that Kurt is intentionally delaying settlement in hopes

826
00:42:33,327 --> 00:42:36,087
Speaker 3: that I will not survive the divorce proceedings. It is

827
00:42:36,127 --> 00:42:38,647
Speaker 3: simply not right that Kurt be permitted to prolong our

828
00:42:38,687 --> 00:42:41,087
Speaker 3: divorce in hopes that I die before he is required

829
00:42:41,127 --> 00:42:43,607
Speaker 3: to pay me. Oh my God, while he continues to

830
00:42:43,647 --> 00:42:46,807
Speaker 3: live his life and shirk his responsibilities to his dying

831
00:42:46,887 --> 00:42:50,647
Speaker 3: wife of more than eleven years. Doherty was candid in

832
00:42:50,727 --> 00:42:53,407
Speaker 3: her podcast Let's Be Clear with Shannon Doherty, and even

833
00:42:53,527 --> 00:42:56,607
Speaker 3: had a rule for her funeral, Holly, What were her wishes?

834
00:42:57,007 --> 00:43:00,047
Speaker 2: She spoke on one of her podcasts about exactly how

835
00:43:00,047 --> 00:43:01,567
Speaker 2: she wanted to be remembered and what she wanted to

836
00:43:01,567 --> 00:43:02,967
Speaker 2: do with her money, and what she wanted to do

837
00:43:03,167 --> 00:43:06,527
Speaker 2: with her funeral, And she says she wanted her guest

838
00:43:06,567 --> 00:43:07,887
Speaker 2: list to be on the shorter side.

839
00:43:07,967 --> 00:43:09,767
Speaker 1: And there's a lot of people that I think would

840
00:43:09,767 --> 00:43:12,607
Speaker 1: show up that I don't want there, Like I don't

841
00:43:12,647 --> 00:43:16,647
Speaker 1: want them there because the reasons for showing up aren't

842
00:43:16,647 --> 00:43:20,127
Speaker 1: necessarily the best reasons, Like they don't really like me,

843
00:43:22,447 --> 00:43:24,487
Speaker 1: And you know, if they have their reasons, and good

844
00:43:24,527 --> 00:43:29,487
Speaker 1: for them, but they don't actually really like me enough

845
00:43:29,527 --> 00:43:31,567
Speaker 1: to show it to my funeral. But they will because

846
00:43:31,567 --> 00:43:34,007
Speaker 1: it's the politically correct thing to do, and they don't

847
00:43:34,007 --> 00:43:36,327
Speaker 1: want to look bad. I kind of want to take

848
00:43:36,367 --> 00:43:40,287
Speaker 1: that pressure off of them. And I want my funeral

849
00:43:40,327 --> 00:43:43,447
Speaker 1: to be like a love fest. I don't want people

850
00:43:43,447 --> 00:43:46,447
Speaker 1: to be crying or people to want people to privately

851
00:43:46,527 --> 00:43:49,087
Speaker 1: being like thank god that bitch is dead now, you know,

852
00:43:49,807 --> 00:43:52,967
Speaker 1: bye bye bitch, right, Like those are the things I

853
00:43:53,127 --> 00:43:53,647
Speaker 1: don't want.

854
00:43:53,847 --> 00:43:57,087
Speaker 4: Oh, it sounds like this podcast was like the full

855
00:43:57,127 --> 00:43:57,647
Speaker 4: Burn book.

856
00:43:57,887 --> 00:44:00,207
Speaker 2: Well, because the thing is about Shannon Doherty is that

857
00:44:00,287 --> 00:44:04,207
Speaker 2: if you were obsessed with that era of TV, so

858
00:44:04,447 --> 00:44:08,007
Speaker 2: Beverly Hills nine o two or no Charmed. She was

859
00:44:08,127 --> 00:44:12,247
Speaker 2: a constant in the tabloids in those days for being

860
00:44:12,407 --> 00:44:13,807
Speaker 2: and I'm just going to say it because I'm not

861
00:44:13,847 --> 00:44:15,567
Speaker 2: saying that this is what she was. This is her

862
00:44:15,647 --> 00:44:18,127
Speaker 2: reputation and what the tabloids decided she was, because you

863
00:44:18,167 --> 00:44:18,807
Speaker 2: know how much we.

864
00:44:18,927 --> 00:44:20,207
Speaker 4: Like to cast a role.

865
00:44:20,727 --> 00:44:23,487
Speaker 2: She was a bitch. She was the one who the

866
00:44:23,567 --> 00:44:26,487
Speaker 2: story went, was difficult with all the co stars, difficult

867
00:44:26,527 --> 00:44:30,207
Speaker 2: with Jason Priestley left that show on Charmed, difficult with

868
00:44:30,687 --> 00:44:35,087
Speaker 2: Alissa Milano left that show. So she's always been kind

869
00:44:35,127 --> 00:44:39,247
Speaker 2: of portrayed, rightly or wrongly, absolutely as being like a

870
00:44:39,287 --> 00:44:42,607
Speaker 2: woman who speaks her mind, wasn't afraid to make enemies,

871
00:44:42,847 --> 00:44:46,607
Speaker 2: said what she said, they go. And then what has happened,

872
00:44:46,607 --> 00:44:48,767
Speaker 2: obviously is that she has been very public about how

873
00:44:48,807 --> 00:44:51,527
Speaker 2: sick she's been for a long time. When it was

874
00:44:51,527 --> 00:44:53,247
Speaker 2: announced that she passed over the weekend, a lot of

875
00:44:53,247 --> 00:44:56,287
Speaker 2: those people, including Alisa Milano, have released statements saying how

876
00:44:56,327 --> 00:44:58,767
Speaker 2: sorry they are, as they should and as they would right.

877
00:44:59,727 --> 00:45:03,447
Speaker 2: What's interesting to me about the idea of saying so clearly,

878
00:45:03,487 --> 00:45:06,287
Speaker 2: don't pretend you're sad when I'm gone, is a really

879
00:45:06,287 --> 00:45:09,927
Speaker 2: interesting one, because if you've always lived your life as

880
00:45:09,967 --> 00:45:14,327
Speaker 2: being very straightforward about like, don't bullshit me. You know,

881
00:45:14,447 --> 00:45:16,727
Speaker 2: I'm not afraid to call out bad behavior if I

882
00:45:16,767 --> 00:45:19,607
Speaker 2: see it, or even behave badly if I am feeling it.

883
00:45:20,487 --> 00:45:22,567
Speaker 2: Don't pretend that I'm a saint when I'm gone. Don't

884
00:45:22,567 --> 00:45:24,367
Speaker 2: pretend that we loved each other when we didn't. Don't

885
00:45:24,367 --> 00:45:27,247
Speaker 2: pretend if you're my husband. And I mean, their divorce

886
00:45:27,367 --> 00:45:29,367
Speaker 2: was one of the most acrimonious I can remember in

887
00:45:29,367 --> 00:45:33,207
Speaker 2: Hollywood in that when they split, Doherty's agent released a

888
00:45:33,287 --> 00:45:37,167
Speaker 2: statement saying, if you want more details, ask his agent

889
00:45:37,327 --> 00:45:40,327
Speaker 2: because they're intimately involved, basically saying that he was having

890
00:45:40,327 --> 00:45:43,647
Speaker 2: an affair with his agent. And so it's kind of

891
00:45:43,687 --> 00:45:46,887
Speaker 2: interesting and I think worthy of respect that she's kind

892
00:45:46,887 --> 00:45:49,567
Speaker 2: of saying she's a woman who knew that her mortality

893
00:45:49,687 --> 00:45:51,527
Speaker 2: was finite. She was a woman who knew that the

894
00:45:51,607 --> 00:45:53,647
Speaker 2: end was close. The kind of people she wanted to

895
00:45:53,647 --> 00:45:56,647
Speaker 2: be around her, despite all the rumors that she was

896
00:45:56,687 --> 00:45:58,847
Speaker 2: difficult to work with. Her co host on her podcast

897
00:45:59,007 --> 00:46:01,807
Speaker 2: was Holly Marie Coombs, who was the other person on Charmed.

898
00:46:01,847 --> 00:46:04,047
Speaker 2: It was a show about three, which is if you

899
00:46:04,087 --> 00:46:07,207
Speaker 2: weren't familiar with it, and it was massive, massive, massive

900
00:46:07,207 --> 00:46:10,927
Speaker 2: in the naughties for a while they main friends, stayed friends.

901
00:46:10,967 --> 00:46:14,287
Speaker 2: Talk sometimes about the Milano stuffed but obviously she didn't

902
00:46:14,327 --> 00:46:17,927
Speaker 2: suffer fools, and she's saying, don't pretend just now I'm gone.

903
00:46:18,087 --> 00:46:23,287
Speaker 3: A celebrity death is so loaded because there's an expectation

904
00:46:23,407 --> 00:46:25,647
Speaker 3: that everyone who ever knew you or crossed paths with

905
00:46:25,727 --> 00:46:28,047
Speaker 3: you will make a statement, and if they don't, what's

906
00:46:28,047 --> 00:46:31,207
Speaker 3: wrong Exactly, So even the funeral would be about showing face,

907
00:46:31,407 --> 00:46:34,407
Speaker 3: Like she's saying, you know, something that would absolutely be true,

908
00:46:34,407 --> 00:46:37,007
Speaker 3: which is it? A Lissa Milano would probably be expected

909
00:46:37,327 --> 00:46:40,207
Speaker 3: and probably be advised by her agent that she show

910
00:46:40,327 --> 00:46:42,567
Speaker 3: up as a sign of respect, even though they'd had

911
00:46:42,607 --> 00:46:46,407
Speaker 3: this massive falling out, whereas in ordinary people's lives we

912
00:46:46,527 --> 00:46:48,967
Speaker 3: kind of just let that stuff lie. But because it

913
00:46:49,047 --> 00:46:50,287
Speaker 3: was also public for her, I don't.

914
00:46:50,367 --> 00:46:53,967
Speaker 7: No, don't people go to like the family funerals of

915
00:46:54,527 --> 00:46:55,967
Speaker 7: relatives they can't stand?

916
00:46:56,367 --> 00:46:59,127
Speaker 2: Yes, they do. And it's really interesting in that the

917
00:46:59,207 --> 00:47:01,687
Speaker 2: episode of mid I did with Jackie Bailey, who is

918
00:47:01,727 --> 00:47:04,287
Speaker 2: a funeral celebrant. She said that one of the most

919
00:47:04,327 --> 00:47:07,767
Speaker 2: complicated things often about funerals, obviously is dealing with the

920
00:47:07,767 --> 00:47:11,527
Speaker 2: family politics. And what people can and can't put aside,

921
00:47:11,927 --> 00:47:14,847
Speaker 2: and also the idea of your loved one after they've

922
00:47:14,887 --> 00:47:17,727
Speaker 2: gone being like a different person than the one that

923
00:47:17,847 --> 00:47:20,087
Speaker 2: you were with, so you suddenly can kind of imagine

924
00:47:20,087 --> 00:47:22,927
Speaker 2: that your relationship was different to how it was, or

925
00:47:23,447 --> 00:47:25,567
Speaker 2: she was saying how the cause of a lot of

926
00:47:25,687 --> 00:47:28,207
Speaker 2: tension in those final when a death is expected, in

927
00:47:28,247 --> 00:47:31,087
Speaker 2: those final months, week's days, is We're going to set

928
00:47:31,167 --> 00:47:33,807
Speaker 2: everything right in this very short period of time and

929
00:47:33,927 --> 00:47:36,607
Speaker 2: finally have that conversation that I've always been having in

930
00:47:36,607 --> 00:47:39,007
Speaker 2: my head with you, or set this relationship on a

931
00:47:39,047 --> 00:47:41,647
Speaker 2: path that I always truly believe it should be on

932
00:47:42,087 --> 00:47:46,087
Speaker 2: when actually a person who is dying is the same

933
00:47:46,127 --> 00:47:48,207
Speaker 2: person as they were when they're alive, and that your

934
00:47:48,247 --> 00:47:50,287
Speaker 2: relationship with them is going to be as complicated as

935
00:47:50,327 --> 00:47:52,727
Speaker 2: it always was. Like a lot of things we like

936
00:47:52,767 --> 00:47:55,487
Speaker 2: to see an absolute binary of, like is her ex

937
00:47:55,567 --> 00:47:57,727
Speaker 2: husband sad or is he happy? Like I'm sure that

938
00:47:57,847 --> 00:48:01,927
Speaker 2: his feelings about what's happened over the past, however long,

939
00:48:02,327 --> 00:48:03,807
Speaker 2: are very complicated too.

940
00:48:03,727 --> 00:48:06,327
Speaker 7: Well, he could have handled things differently. I mean, that's

941
00:48:06,327 --> 00:48:08,607
Speaker 7: still going through the courts. But what she said was

942
00:48:08,687 --> 00:48:11,967
Speaker 7: chilling to me about his slow walking this so that

943
00:48:12,007 --> 00:48:14,127
Speaker 7: he doesn't have to pay me because he knows that

944
00:48:14,167 --> 00:48:18,127
Speaker 7: I've got a very limited life expectancy, and his refusal

945
00:48:18,167 --> 00:48:20,687
Speaker 7: to do that means that the time I have left

946
00:48:21,487 --> 00:48:24,807
Speaker 7: will be awful. I can't have the comforts and any

947
00:48:24,887 --> 00:48:26,127
Speaker 7: sort of security.

948
00:48:26,407 --> 00:48:29,007
Speaker 3: This reminded me of an article I read in The

949
00:48:29,047 --> 00:48:32,767
Speaker 3: Guardian years ago which was all about men who leave

950
00:48:32,807 --> 00:48:35,727
Speaker 3: the terminally ill wives, and it said that the amount

951
00:48:35,767 --> 00:48:38,407
Speaker 3: of marriages that end you to terminal illness a relatively

952
00:48:38,447 --> 00:48:40,567
Speaker 3: small unlikely that your partner will leave you, I think

953
00:48:40,567 --> 00:48:43,567
Speaker 3: at six percent, But when you interrogate that six percent,

954
00:48:43,607 --> 00:48:46,887
Speaker 3: it is almost always the man who leaves. The reason,

955
00:48:46,967 --> 00:48:49,887
Speaker 3: they think, is a lot to do with gender division

956
00:48:49,887 --> 00:48:55,367
Speaker 3: within a household and the expectation that you clean, that

957
00:48:55,407 --> 00:48:58,127
Speaker 3: you provide, that you cook, and that you caretake the

958
00:48:58,207 --> 00:49:01,687
Speaker 3: care taking position. Not that it comes more naturally, but

959
00:49:01,727 --> 00:49:04,767
Speaker 3: maybe it's more expected for women. So there were all

960
00:49:04,807 --> 00:49:10,247
Speaker 3: these really heartbreaking stories of people remember ring, you know,

961
00:49:10,287 --> 00:49:13,527
Speaker 3: their mum and dad, and how their dad was often

962
00:49:13,687 --> 00:49:15,647
Speaker 3: very good, and it was saying that there's this thing

963
00:49:15,687 --> 00:49:18,087
Speaker 3: about men wanting to fix a problem, but when the

964
00:49:18,207 --> 00:49:22,967
Speaker 3: terminal diagnosis came in, they totally emotionally checked out, which

965
00:49:23,007 --> 00:49:27,007
Speaker 3: I just thought was so so tragic. And also she'd

966
00:49:27,047 --> 00:49:30,327
Speaker 3: had cancer for a long time before this affair had started,

967
00:49:30,327 --> 00:49:31,727
Speaker 3: and I wondered the impact of that.

968
00:49:32,007 --> 00:49:34,647
Speaker 4: I interviewed a woman called Rebecca Wolf, who's a writer.

969
00:49:35,087 --> 00:49:35,967
Speaker 4: She had four.

970
00:49:35,847 --> 00:49:38,127
Speaker 7: Children and had been with her husband for a really

971
00:49:38,127 --> 00:49:40,807
Speaker 7: long time and they were about to get divorced. It

972
00:49:40,847 --> 00:49:42,967
Speaker 7: had been a pretty unhappy marriage the last few years,

973
00:49:42,967 --> 00:49:46,647
Speaker 7: and it had been emotionally abusive from her point of view,

974
00:49:46,727 --> 00:49:49,167
Speaker 7: and it was just awful and she was getting out.

975
00:49:49,247 --> 00:49:52,927
Speaker 7: And then he was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and given

976
00:49:52,927 --> 00:49:56,167
Speaker 7: a limited amount of time to live, and she talked

977
00:49:56,207 --> 00:50:01,367
Speaker 7: about how incredibly complicated that was, and she didn't, you know,

978
00:50:01,407 --> 00:50:04,127
Speaker 7: obviously all their plans to split up were put on

979
00:50:04,207 --> 00:50:08,527
Speaker 7: hold and people hadn't really known about it, and she

980
00:50:08,647 --> 00:50:12,767
Speaker 7: nursed him until he died. But she then had very

981
00:50:13,207 --> 00:50:14,847
Speaker 7: complicated feelings.

982
00:50:14,407 --> 00:50:15,367
Speaker 4: After his death.

983
00:50:15,967 --> 00:50:19,447
Speaker 7: She absolutely grieved, but it was different to the way

984
00:50:19,447 --> 00:50:22,447
Speaker 7: everyone thought she was grieving, which is it of someone

985
00:50:22,447 --> 00:50:23,967
Speaker 7: who was still with him and planning to be with

986
00:50:24,047 --> 00:50:26,287
Speaker 7: him into the future, and who'd lost a future. She

987
00:50:26,367 --> 00:50:29,047
Speaker 7: hadn't she'd lost her past, but she hadn't lost her

988
00:50:29,087 --> 00:50:31,167
Speaker 7: future and we'll put a link in the show notes.

989
00:50:31,207 --> 00:50:34,567
Speaker 7: It was an amazing interview to listen to. But what

990
00:50:34,687 --> 00:50:37,487
Speaker 7: do you do if you're a Lissa Milano on this day?

991
00:50:37,607 --> 00:50:38,847
Speaker 7: I mean, has she released?

992
00:50:39,127 --> 00:50:41,407
Speaker 2: Yes, she hasn't, And I actually think her statement's great,

993
00:50:41,487 --> 00:50:43,927
Speaker 2: she said. And some people were rolling their rise of

994
00:50:43,967 --> 00:50:45,807
Speaker 2: me like she shouldn't have released a statement, But I

995
00:50:45,807 --> 00:50:48,927
Speaker 2: think that's tough. She said. It's no secret that Shannon

996
00:50:48,927 --> 00:50:51,847
Speaker 2: and I had a complicated relationship, but at its core

997
00:50:52,087 --> 00:50:54,567
Speaker 2: with someone I deeply respected and was in awe of.

998
00:50:54,887 --> 00:50:57,807
Speaker 2: She was a talented actress, beloved by many, and the

999
00:50:57,847 --> 00:51:00,407
Speaker 2: world is less without her. My condolence is to all

1000
00:51:00,407 --> 00:51:03,127
Speaker 2: who loved her. I think that's a great statement. I mean,

1001
00:51:03,167 --> 00:51:07,127
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, it's not about you when somebody else passes.

1002
00:51:07,207 --> 00:51:09,847
Speaker 2: And I think that if she hadn't a released statement,

1003
00:51:09,847 --> 00:51:12,527
Speaker 2: everybody would have looked because there is nothing we love

1004
00:51:12,607 --> 00:51:15,647
Speaker 2: more than a female feud in averted commas. So the

1005
00:51:15,767 --> 00:51:20,367
Speaker 2: Milano Doherty feud is in the pop culture canon of

1006
00:51:20,447 --> 00:51:23,687
Speaker 2: you know, co stars at war that we so buy into.

1007
00:51:24,287 --> 00:51:25,927
Speaker 2: I don't know, I think they we'll probably look back

1008
00:51:25,927 --> 00:51:28,327
Speaker 2: at Shannon Doherty, not in that way where we suddenly

1009
00:51:28,327 --> 00:51:30,727
Speaker 2: have to erase anything that's complicated about a person when

1010
00:51:30,767 --> 00:51:33,207
Speaker 2: they're gone. But in a way, what a gift to

1011
00:51:33,527 --> 00:51:36,687
Speaker 2: make a podcast kind of and document this final battle

1012
00:51:36,847 --> 00:51:42,327
Speaker 2: a cliched language, but this experience that is relatively common.

1013
00:51:43,007 --> 00:51:45,647
Speaker 2: And also to be so upfront about who you are.

1014
00:51:45,767 --> 00:51:48,487
Speaker 2: I mean, maybe she's not, you know, the easiest person

1015
00:51:48,567 --> 00:51:51,327
Speaker 2: to work with, get along with whatever, but that doesn't

1016
00:51:51,407 --> 00:51:54,767
Speaker 2: mean that, as Milano's said here, that a lot of

1017
00:51:54,767 --> 00:51:57,687
Speaker 2: people will be devastated by her passing. I say veil,

1018
00:51:58,047 --> 00:52:00,327
Speaker 2: and I also say go and watch Beverly Hills nine

1019
00:52:00,367 --> 00:52:03,207
Speaker 2: o two one. It's one of the greatest shows ever made.

1020
00:52:03,767 --> 00:52:06,727
Speaker 3: Out louders, If you feel like lifting spirits, well, may

1021
00:52:06,927 --> 00:52:10,967
Speaker 3: I suggest that you listen to our subscriber episode on

1022
00:52:11,047 --> 00:52:14,687
Speaker 3: a Family Affair, which stars Zac Efron and Nicole Goodman.

1023
00:52:14,967 --> 00:52:16,607
Speaker 3: People have listened to it have a lot of thoughts.

1024
00:52:16,687 --> 00:52:18,887
Speaker 3: I don't agree, so many thoughts, a lot of things

1025
00:52:18,887 --> 00:52:21,047
Speaker 3: we said. They think that we should have focused on

1026
00:52:21,127 --> 00:52:24,567
Speaker 3: other things more. They do being very cryptic, But please

1027
00:52:24,567 --> 00:52:26,367
Speaker 3: go and listen and jump in the outlauders and let

1028
00:52:26,447 --> 00:52:29,567
Speaker 3: us know what you thought about it, what your takeaways were. Overwhelmingly,

1029
00:52:30,127 --> 00:52:32,487
Speaker 3: just say the Outlouder's not given it five stars, not five,

1030
00:52:32,567 --> 00:52:35,687
Speaker 3: and we also were not giving it three or four

1031
00:52:35,807 --> 00:52:38,607
Speaker 3: or five stars. So h you can listen to that

1032
00:52:38,727 --> 00:52:40,047
Speaker 3: via the link in our show notes.

1033
00:52:40,207 --> 00:52:42,407
Speaker 2: A very big thank you our friends for being here

1034
00:52:42,447 --> 00:52:44,967
Speaker 2: with us on this enormous news Monday.

1035
00:52:45,287 --> 00:52:47,367
Speaker 4: We were so loud, news cycles drunk and it needs

1036
00:52:47,367 --> 00:52:47,767
Speaker 4: to go home.

1037
00:52:47,967 --> 00:52:50,167
Speaker 2: I know there are like five other things we could

1038
00:52:50,207 --> 00:52:52,887
Speaker 2: have talked about today too, but it's like we can't

1039
00:52:52,927 --> 00:52:55,927
Speaker 2: crumb it all into our show. This episode was produced

1040
00:52:55,927 --> 00:52:58,927
Speaker 2: by Emiline Gazillas. The assistant producer is Chylie Blackman. The

1041
00:52:58,967 --> 00:53:01,127
Speaker 2: audio production from Lea Porgees. And we'll be back in

1042
00:53:01,167 --> 00:53:04,767
Speaker 2: your ears tomorrow and then with more news and news

1043
00:53:04,767 --> 00:53:06,647
Speaker 2: on Wednesday Byye.

1044
00:53:07,487 --> 00:53:10,247
Speaker 4: Shout out to any Mum of me is subscribers listening.

1045
00:53:10,447 --> 00:53:12,727
Speaker 4: If you love the show and want to support us

1046
00:53:12,767 --> 00:53:15,567
Speaker 4: as well, subscribing to Mama Maya is the very best

1047
00:53:15,647 --> 00:53:17,407
Speaker 4: way to do so. There is a link in the

1048
00:53:17,447 --> 00:53:18,407
Speaker 4: episode description