1 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:08,559 Speaker 1: You're listening to I'm On with mea podcast. 2 00:00:09,079 --> 00:00:11,720 Speaker 2: Phone addiction is getting so bad that watching a movie 3 00:00:11,719 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 2: feels productive. Like I'll scroll on my phone for three hours. 4 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 2: I'll go through TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, whatever it is, and 5 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 2: I'll feel super bad about it. I'll feel fried and 6 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:22,479 Speaker 2: just burnt out. And then I'll decide, you know what, 7 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 2: I want to sit down, relax and watch a three 8 00:00:25,759 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 2: hour movie. And for some reason, it feels way more 9 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:30,999 Speaker 2: productive than being on your phone. It's like your brain 10 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 2: process is that small screen is bad, big screen good. 11 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 1: Well, mama Mia, I'm your host, Ashani Dante. Welcome to 12 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: But Are You Happy? The show for anyone whose idea 13 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 1: of relaxation is watching true crime with a weighted blanket. 14 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 3: And I'm doctor Anastasia Hernas, a clinical psychologist passionate about 15 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 3: happiness and mental health. Are you someone who's never been 16 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 3: able to put their phone down? 17 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 1: Yep, I'm definitely guilty of that one. 18 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 3: We can all be. But there comes a point where 19 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 3: being on our phone too much can really negatively impact 20 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 3: our mental health and how we spend our time. So 21 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 3: we're gonna unpack that today. 22 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 4: Let's get into it. Okay, I'm not gonna lie. 23 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: I did have a little giggle to myself as we 24 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: were preparing for this episode because the phone is fucking 25 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 1: up our lives and yeah, it's laughable because it's so relatable. 26 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 4: Why is it fucking up our lives at aesthesia? 27 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, let me jump in right off the start 28 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 3: and say, it's not the phone, it's what's on the 29 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 3: phone and what we're doing on our phones. Right, because 30 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 3: if we think back to the days of the quote 31 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 3: unquote dumb phone as they call it now, right, the 32 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 3: Nokia flip phone or whatever it was. I remember I 33 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 3: had a phone back in the day. And what I do. 34 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 3: I played Snake. Yeah, it got really good at Snake. 35 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 4: What a throwback. 36 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 3: That is so true. Yeah, Snake, that like one game 37 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 3: black and white, no color. Yes, a lot of buttons 38 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 3: you had to press, and then what you text a 39 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 3: friend and you had to type out every letter. 40 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, it is so true that you say that, 41 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:08,920 Speaker 1: I fully forgot that we did that. 42 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:12,359 Speaker 3: Yeah. And while we might have used phones a lot 43 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 3: back then, we weren't like addicted to them in the 44 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 3: same way that we are now. I certainly didn't have 45 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:21,359 Speaker 3: kind of these urges to be like, oh my god, 46 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 3: I can't wait to like pick up my phone and 47 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,360 Speaker 3: play the next game of snake. Right, it just wasn't 48 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 3: that exciting or entire sing or you know, sending a text. 49 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 3: It took longer. So you know, part of the part 50 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 3: of the thing that makes something have more addictive potential 51 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 3: is how fast we can do it. Right, So nowadays 52 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 3: we can scroll super fast through TikTok, Instagram, YouTube shorts, 53 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 3: all these things. If I make an analogy, it's like 54 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 3: poke machines right. Very similarly, we can play Pokey's really fast, 55 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,080 Speaker 3: and that's why pokeys are more addictive than something like 56 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 3: scratches or lotto tickets, because we have more of a 57 00:02:56,400 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 3: period of having to wait than playing Pokey's. Wow. And 58 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 3: there's actually limits I'm getting a little bit off topic here, 59 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:04,399 Speaker 3: but it's actually limits as to how fast Pokeys can spin. 60 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 3: I think it's like two point four seconds per spin. 61 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 3: But the reason they have that in place is because 62 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 3: they know the faster you can do something, the more 63 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 3: addictive it can be. So the reason I say this 64 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:15,359 Speaker 3: is because when we had to type out that text, 65 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:17,919 Speaker 3: you know, it was slow, it was effortful, It took 66 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:20,920 Speaker 3: longer it was a bit more hard work, which means 67 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 3: it's got less of a potential to be addictive. 68 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so interesting you talk it out like that, 69 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 1: because I fully forgot that that's how I used to 70 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 1: text back in the days, and that wasn't that long ago. 71 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 3: Yeah I remember. I remember I could like type out 72 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 3: my name like super fast with my eyes closed without 73 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 3: having to look at like, and that was like a 74 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 3: win for the day. 75 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, oh my gosh, I love that. 76 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: But it's interesting because it does just go to show 77 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 1: I like to kind of name it as we do 78 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 1: live in this microwave culture where we want, we thrive 79 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: of getting things quick and fast, and I feel like 80 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: that's exactly what's happening with. 81 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 4: Our phones as well. 82 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 3: Absolutely, So what. 83 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 1: Makes our phones or as you were saying, what's on it? 84 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: What makes it so addictive? Like why can we not 85 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: put it down? 86 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 3: So there's a few key features. So I already spoke 87 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 3: to that speed element, right, the faster we can do something, 88 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 3: the more addictive potential it has. But there's something else 89 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 3: called intermittent reinforcement schedules, which is just basically fancy, a 90 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 3: fancy way of saying the brain likes things that are 91 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 3: rewarding and exciting. Right, So when we go and scroll 92 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 3: social media, we see a video and we find it funny, 93 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 3: and the brain likes that. 94 00:04:34,280 --> 00:04:34,480 Speaker 2: Right. 95 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 3: This is where dopamine comes into it. Dopamine pathways are activated. 96 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 3: But what the brain likes more than just something exciting 97 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 3: is random excitement. All right. So when I don't know 98 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:52,119 Speaker 3: when the exciting thing is going to happen, it makes 99 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:54,840 Speaker 3: my brain lock in even more and makes it more 100 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 3: exciting and addictive. So again I'm going to make a 101 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 3: link to poke machines. People know that a win is 102 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 3: possible when you play a poke machine because either they've 103 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:06,919 Speaker 3: won before, or they've seen someone else when, or they 104 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 3: just know it's a possibility. So the fact that those 105 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 3: wins are random, we don't know when it's gonna happen, 106 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 3: but we know there's the potential for it makes it 107 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 3: more exciting. So this is intermittent, which means every so often, 108 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 3: not on a regular intermittent reinforcement reward schedules. The rewards 109 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 3: are on a random schedule. And this is how social 110 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 3: media platforms have been developed to exist because the companies 111 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 3: know that if every single video you saw was like that, 112 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 3: bang on, this is so great. I love this. It 113 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:43,160 Speaker 3: would actually be less exciting to the brain than if 114 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 3: every third or fourth video you saw was that really 115 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:47,679 Speaker 3: funny or exciting video. 116 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:51,600 Speaker 1: Wow, that's actually I mean, it's amazing to see that perspective, 117 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 1: but also quite confronting because I'm literally thinking about social 118 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 1: media because I definitely am addicted to social media, and 119 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: I can I can feel like you talk about dopamine, 120 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: I literally can feel it go off in my brain 121 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,119 Speaker 1: being like ooh, new follow. 122 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 4: Like you comment who's this person? 123 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:08,280 Speaker 1: I don't know who this person is, and it's just 124 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:11,599 Speaker 1: I notice myself doing it, but I actually can't get 125 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:13,479 Speaker 1: out of it, and I know, like we'll talk about 126 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:18,040 Speaker 1: that later, but it does just it's so conflicting, right 127 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: because I know social media is this false reality. You know, 128 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 1: it's a curated lifestyle, but I do subconsciously and consciously 129 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 1: I do kind of give into it, being like and 130 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: it sounds so superficial in a way, but it's like, oh, 131 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 1: if I get this amount of followers, then I'm going 132 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 1: to be successful, or if I get this many likes, 133 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:39,799 Speaker 1: that means I'm going to feel loved. 134 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:42,599 Speaker 3: And I think what you're saying speaks to what a 135 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 3: lot of people experience, which is this internal conflict, the 136 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:48,279 Speaker 3: part of me that goes, I know this isn't real. 137 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 3: I know this maybe isn't as important. I know it's addictive. 138 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 3: I know I shouldn't look at my phone that much. 139 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:54,840 Speaker 3: I shouldn't, you know, look at social media that much, 140 00:06:55,440 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 3: and yet we do. Yeah, And it's because dopamine and 141 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 3: these these chemical neural pathways are being activated on a 142 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 3: level that is beneath conscious awareness. We actually don't you know. 143 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 3: I always hate to say this, but we don't have 144 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 3: as much control as we like to think we do. 145 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 3: I'm really sort of opinions about this because I think 146 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 3: where we're at currently with social media is that a 147 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 3: lot of onus has been placed on the individual to 148 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 3: manage and monitor and stop their use. Right, if you're 149 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 3: addicted to social media, you should put all these barriers 150 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 3: in place. Yes, I'm not anti that, But where's the 151 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 3: bigger conversation about regulation and pressure on social media companies 152 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 3: to not create apps and platforms that are designed to 153 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 3: be addictive. It's no secret that we exist in this 154 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 3: attention economy. We know that these companies profit the more 155 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 3: time we spend on certain apps, and so they are 156 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 3: being designed for us to be on there for as 157 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 3: long as possible. 158 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 1: It's so interesting you talk about the attention economy, like, 159 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: I think that's just such a like. I think that's 160 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: so symbolic of the times for living in because I 161 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 1: think about social media back in the days I was 162 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: in high school and I was probably on the edge 163 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 1: of my Space and Bebo Bebo the millennials out there 164 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: that I get this, but I remember it wasn't as 165 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 1: addictive too, because there wasn't that advertisement aspect to it 166 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 1: as well. So it's just interesting how much it's changed, 167 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 1: and drastically. 168 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 3: It was literally following your friends and friends would post, 169 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 3: you know, what they had for dinner that night, and 170 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 3: on a scale of what's exciting, what some person is 171 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 3: having somewhere with friends that I don't know is not 172 00:08:36,959 --> 00:08:39,679 Speaker 3: actually that exciting to me. Also, if you think back 173 00:08:39,719 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 3: to the days of say Facebook, Facebook used to have 174 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 3: an end to the home screen, right, we would actually 175 00:08:47,119 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 3: scroll because we have the infinite scroll. 176 00:08:48,839 --> 00:08:48,999 Speaker 4: Now. 177 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 3: Facebook never used to have the infinite scroll a new thing. 178 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 3: It used to scroll. You'd get to the end of 179 00:08:54,439 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 3: your news feed and it would either say you're all 180 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:00,119 Speaker 3: caught up, as in, you've seen everything there is to 181 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:03,599 Speaker 3: see on this home feed, or it would say click 182 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 3: to see more. And so that button, the click to 183 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 3: see more, was an opportunity for your brain that was 184 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:12,959 Speaker 3: stuck in this kind of scroll, for the prefrontal cortex 185 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 3: to come back online to go, hang on, do I 186 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:17,839 Speaker 3: actually want to keep scrolling through and seeing what food 187 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 3: people are eating for dinner or where they've checked into, 188 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 3: or do I want to go and do something else. 189 00:09:22,319 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 3: We don't have that button anymore because it has been 190 00:09:24,839 --> 00:09:28,319 Speaker 3: identified as a circuit breaker. It actually takes people away 191 00:09:28,439 --> 00:09:31,679 Speaker 3: from the scroll, and of course companies don't want that. 192 00:09:32,079 --> 00:09:33,479 Speaker 3: They want you to be on there for as long 193 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:36,960 Speaker 3: as possible. So these really kind of small, seemingly small 194 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 3: tweaks have such a huge impact on how much time 195 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 3: we spend on these apps. 196 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 1: So how big is the negative impact on our mental 197 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 1: and physical health? 198 00:09:46,959 --> 00:09:51,839 Speaker 3: It's big. And I say this not to discredit the 199 00:09:52,239 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 3: positive impacts that social media phones tech can have, but 200 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 3: if we look at the data about excessive phone use 201 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,319 Speaker 3: and social media use, because I think, really here, when 202 00:10:04,319 --> 00:10:06,879 Speaker 3: we're talking about phones, we're talking about specific apps, right, 203 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:09,199 Speaker 3: I'm not spending hours a day on Google Maps or 204 00:10:09,239 --> 00:10:11,559 Speaker 3: on the weather app. Yeah, you know, like I'm not 205 00:10:11,599 --> 00:10:14,319 Speaker 3: hooked on that. I'm hooked on as you're traveling a 206 00:10:14,359 --> 00:10:16,879 Speaker 3: lot er neither web and in which case it's really 207 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 3: functional and useful. So I guess we differentiate here between 208 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,679 Speaker 3: apps and technology that are designed to be tools that 209 00:10:26,719 --> 00:10:29,960 Speaker 3: are really useful versus apps and tech that are designed 210 00:10:29,959 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 3: to be entertainment. So when we look at people spending 211 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 3: excessive amounts of times on these apps, we see that 212 00:10:36,719 --> 00:10:42,439 Speaker 3: there are higher rates of depression, loneliness, anxiety. Physically, people 213 00:10:42,479 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 3: report disruptions to their sleep, especially if people are scrolling 214 00:10:46,079 --> 00:10:48,439 Speaker 3: before bed, which they often do in the bed and 215 00:10:48,479 --> 00:10:51,719 Speaker 3: before bed, So it really can have quite a negative 216 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 3: impact on our mental health in so many ways. 217 00:10:54,319 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: It's a little bit of a paradox in a way, 218 00:10:56,599 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: right when it comes to loneliness and using our phones, 219 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,719 Speaker 1: because it's like we think using our phones will make 220 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: us less alone. Because you're right, it does have a function. 221 00:11:04,959 --> 00:11:06,999 Speaker 1: It helps us to connect with people, especially in the 222 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 1: different time zones or you know, it is a way 223 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:12,959 Speaker 1: to communicate, but is it actually helping. 224 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:16,319 Speaker 3: I think it's exactly what you said, right, if we're 225 00:11:16,439 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 3: using it in a way that is useful as the 226 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 3: tool it's designed to be. If we're talking to friends 227 00:11:23,959 --> 00:11:26,359 Speaker 3: who live overseas and sort of can connect, et cetera, 228 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:31,079 Speaker 3: then wonderful, great, what a brilliant, wonderful use of tech 229 00:11:31,319 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 3: and social media and phones. But if we are on 230 00:11:36,079 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 3: our phones and we find ourselves replacing online connections with 231 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:44,559 Speaker 3: in real life connections, that's sort a great thing. If 232 00:11:44,599 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 3: we find ourselves engaging in excessive social comparison because we 233 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 3: are now suddenly exposed to so many more people online, 234 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 3: that's not great. And again, social comparison is a natural thing. 235 00:11:58,079 --> 00:12:01,479 Speaker 3: It's not a downfalling of any individual person if they 236 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:03,840 Speaker 3: fall into this sort of social comparison. When it comes 237 00:12:03,839 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 3: to what we consume online, it's really natural and normal, 238 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 3: but it's been amplified because we have access to so 239 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 3: much and so many people nowadays in a way that's 240 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 3: very curated online. 241 00:12:14,599 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: So what about algorithms and what these apps like, what 242 00:12:18,079 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: are they actually feeding us? 243 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:22,999 Speaker 3: Well, we would like to think that these apps are 244 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:27,359 Speaker 3: feeding us content that are really sort of personalized to us. Right, 245 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 3: these apps have a lot of data on who we 246 00:12:30,079 --> 00:12:33,879 Speaker 3: are and what kinds of content we want to consume. 247 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:36,399 Speaker 3: So yes, On the one hand, these apps will feed 248 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:41,200 Speaker 3: us content that we find enjoyable. For example, last night, 249 00:12:41,479 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 3: I love looking at like cooking videos on Instagram, so 250 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:46,439 Speaker 3: I was looking at cooking videos and the next thing 251 00:12:46,479 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 3: I know, my Explore page was just like full of 252 00:12:49,319 --> 00:12:51,439 Speaker 3: cooking videos, and I was like, Oh, there's a lot 253 00:12:51,439 --> 00:12:53,559 Speaker 3: of cooking videos. But like, you know, nice, Okay, I 254 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:55,959 Speaker 3: like looking at this stuff. So it gives us what 255 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 3: we like and what we enjoy, but there's a couple 256 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:01,319 Speaker 3: of other things that gives us that is not so 257 00:13:01,439 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 3: helpful or so good for us. Second is it feeds 258 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:11,199 Speaker 3: the echo chamber. So if I have particular political beliefs 259 00:13:11,359 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 3: or world views that may or may not be sort 260 00:13:15,199 --> 00:13:20,199 Speaker 3: of healthy and helpful, it will feed me content that 261 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:24,199 Speaker 3: pushes and pursues particular beliefs. Now, what we also know 262 00:13:24,239 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 3: about online content is that the more extreme it is, 263 00:13:26,959 --> 00:13:30,519 Speaker 3: the more viral it goes. Right, So I'm less likely 264 00:13:31,199 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 3: to receive videos that provide a very moderate view on 265 00:13:37,119 --> 00:13:40,559 Speaker 3: certain social issues. I'm more likely to be fed videos 266 00:13:40,599 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 3: that provide a somewhat extreme perspective because they're the ones 267 00:13:44,479 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 3: that get a lot of engagement. And this is where 268 00:13:46,119 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 3: we kind of move into the space of rage content. 269 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 3: We know that certain social media platforms will actually push 270 00:13:53,359 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 3: rage content. So this is content that makes us feel something. 271 00:13:56,839 --> 00:13:58,639 Speaker 3: It makes us angry, it makes us annoyed, it makes 272 00:13:58,719 --> 00:14:00,599 Speaker 3: us want to write the comment send it to a friend, 273 00:14:00,719 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 3: even if we don't agree with it. So we end 274 00:14:04,119 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 3: up in this space where we are engaging with and 275 00:14:07,079 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 3: somewhat perpetuating the spread of content that we might not 276 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 3: believe in, that we don't agree with, but because it's 277 00:14:13,239 --> 00:14:17,439 Speaker 3: activated some degree of emotion and rage within us, the 278 00:14:17,599 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 3: spread it has becomes even bigger. 279 00:14:20,359 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: And it's interesting too, just kind of touching on that, 280 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: because I think there's this desire and I'm coming from 281 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 1: a content creator space as well, but there's always this 282 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: desire for content creators or people that have online present 283 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:35,399 Speaker 1: to go viral, right, So it's like, what is that 284 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: telling these people, being like, oh, I need to be 285 00:14:38,239 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 1: more angry, and you know, kind of shape myself to 286 00:14:41,479 --> 00:14:44,239 Speaker 1: feed these algorithms. But then it's like we're losing touch 287 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: of our own authenticity as well. 288 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, and you know I see videos where people 289 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 3: have very strong, one sided opinions on things and those 290 00:14:55,479 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 3: go viral as opposed to the people who might have 291 00:14:58,479 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 3: more kind of moderate balanced perspectives and things or want 292 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 3: to kind of explore two sides. Those are not as engaging, 293 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 3: they're not as quick, they're not as snappy, so they 294 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 3: get often less exposure than the videos that are lean 295 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 3: on one end of a spectrum. Yeah, I think this 296 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 3: is also where we so we're talking about like algorithms 297 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 3: and what they feed us. This is where we can 298 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 3: also talk about the negative use of social media to 299 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:26,479 Speaker 3: kind of spread misinformation. So when we think about misinformation, 300 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:31,399 Speaker 3: we're thinking about content that is actually not factual, and 301 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 3: that might not necessarily be with the intention to not 302 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 3: be factual, but just by nature of the kind of 303 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 3: spread or whoever's created it, it's not actually factual versus disinformation, 304 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:43,999 Speaker 3: which is designed to be not factual but push a 305 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 3: particular agender. But with the degree of content that we 306 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:52,999 Speaker 3: consume these days, so the quantity but also how fast 307 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 3: we consume it, it's really hard to fact check everything. 308 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 2: I know. 309 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 3: I've certainly come across videos in my feed where I'm 310 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 3: looking at it and I'm like, is that actually true? 311 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 3: I don't know if it is. It sounds like it 312 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 3: might not be, but also I'm in some sort of 313 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:10,759 Speaker 3: scrolling pattern. Now I can't be bothered checking, and you know, 314 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 3: I'm just going to sort of take that with a 315 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:14,479 Speaker 3: grain of salt. But we're getting so much information we 316 00:16:14,479 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 3: don't know what's true and what's not these days. 317 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 1: So have you seen this in the clinic in terms 318 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:19,879 Speaker 1: of phone addictions. 319 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,479 Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, It's not something that we have a clear 320 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 3: definition around phone addiction, but I would say it is 321 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 3: absolutely something I'm seeing more and more in the clinic, 322 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 3: both adults and kids. We have a lot of parents 323 00:16:33,119 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 3: and families who are coming to the clinic being like my, 324 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 3: you know child, my teenager is hooked on phones, on screens, 325 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 3: on computers, whatever kind of screens it might be hooked 326 00:16:43,239 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 3: on them, and it's impacting all facets of their life. 327 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 3: They're not getting out and about, they're not doing the 328 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 3: sports that they once enjoyed, they're not connecting with their 329 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 3: friends in real life. They're sometimes not wanting to go 330 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 3: to school as a result of it. So we're absolutely 331 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 3: seeing more of this in the clinic. And I think 332 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,479 Speaker 3: this kind of speaks to the upcoming social media ban 333 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 3: as well. For in December, I think it's the tenth 334 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 3: of December. Ye under sixteens not going to be allowed 335 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:10,959 Speaker 3: to use social media in Australia. I mean, that's a 336 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 3: whole other topic. But I think one of the reasons 337 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:16,879 Speaker 3: it's important to kind of consider youth and teens in 338 00:17:16,879 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 3: this space is because the brain in those teenage years 339 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:27,199 Speaker 3: is very plastic. It's very changeable, it's very susceptible to 340 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,959 Speaker 3: the information we feed it. And we know that the 341 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 3: brain at that age also has a very active limpic system, 342 00:17:34,159 --> 00:17:37,999 Speaker 3: which means it's highly emotional and pretty impulsive. But the 343 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:41,359 Speaker 3: prefrontal cortex, the part that helps us regulate ourselves and 344 00:17:41,399 --> 00:17:44,719 Speaker 3: make good, responsible decisions, is not very well developed. So 345 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:49,119 Speaker 3: we're giving teens and kids access to these tools where 346 00:17:49,159 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 3: they have full ability to access all corners of the internet. 347 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 3: And the Internet has some dark and scary places on it, 348 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 3: but you know that's hard for adults to manage sometimes, 349 00:17:57,639 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 3: let alone kids whose brains are not yet fully developed. 350 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:03,199 Speaker 3: So I don't know that a social media ban is 351 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 3: the answer to all our problems, but I think it's 352 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,119 Speaker 3: a step in the right direction to bring awareness to 353 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 3: the fact that we need to do something to protect 354 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 3: our kids. 355 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 4: It's so true. 356 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 1: And it's interesting because I saw a bunch of our 357 00:18:15,399 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: facilitators from Flourish recently and I actually was asking them 358 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 1: about the conversations that you're having the teen girls around 359 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:24,640 Speaker 1: the social media band. And it's interesting because a they've 360 00:18:24,639 --> 00:18:26,119 Speaker 1: got to find a way to get around it. And 361 00:18:26,159 --> 00:18:29,759 Speaker 1: that's again another whole episode. But the second one is 362 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 1: actually they know that social media is addictive, and they 363 00:18:34,679 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 1: know they're not victims to it. Teenage girls, they're not 364 00:18:37,679 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 1: victims to it. It's more around they need help with 365 00:18:41,639 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 1: navigating the phone addiction because they they're aware of it too, 366 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:46,479 Speaker 1: as much as I'm aware that I'm really addicted to it. 367 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 1: They just need strategies and I think that's that's where 368 00:18:48,679 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 1: the conversations need to be had. 369 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely absolutely, And I think unfortunately, I'm going to 370 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 3: come back to the algorithm for a moment. The algorithm 371 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 3: knows exactly who we are. The algorithm knows that I'm, 372 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:06,759 Speaker 3: you know, thirty something year old psychologists who likes to 373 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 3: consume cooking videos. 374 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,199 Speaker 4: And your phone picking up on this, sorry. 375 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 3: And it feeds me sort of mental health information from 376 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 3: other you know, creators who have some really sort of 377 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 3: sound advice to share. But I was recently working with 378 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:24,440 Speaker 3: a young person and when I say young, I mean preteen, 379 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 3: and they showed me their feed, and their feed had 380 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 3: a lot of really cool, exciting, interesting vapes interesting, and 381 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 3: I then went on my app to try and find 382 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 3: similar videos. But because the algorithm knows who I am, 383 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 3: it gave me videos about people talking about how bad 384 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:47,959 Speaker 3: vapes are for you, which is the sort of concept 385 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 3: that I would typically consume. And I was like, no, no, 386 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:52,159 Speaker 3: I want to find those cool vape videos because I 387 00:19:52,159 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 3: want to understand, you know, better, what kids are seeing. 388 00:19:54,879 --> 00:19:56,919 Speaker 3: And it was very hard. I didn't actually find it. 389 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 3: I gave up in the end. I couldn't find those 390 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 3: cool marketing vape videos that kids are being fed, and 391 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 3: I come back to the ugrith. The algorithm knows that 392 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 3: that's a young child, so I find that really scary. 393 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,439 Speaker 1: I think the reality is the content on our phones 394 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:15,919 Speaker 1: is not going anywhere, and it's around how do we 395 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,719 Speaker 1: learn to work with it without compromising our mental health 396 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 1: and our physical health. And it's interesting because we are 397 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: in changing times and it's in conversations like this right 398 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 1: that we can build our self awareness but also start 399 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:36,239 Speaker 1: to create healthier habits. Absolutely, so, Anastasia, how do we 400 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:38,399 Speaker 1: stop our phones from sucking up our lives? 401 00:20:38,879 --> 00:20:39,159 Speaker 4: Hmmm? 402 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 3: The million billion dollar questions help quite literally the question 403 00:20:44,399 --> 00:20:48,199 Speaker 3: everyone is asking at the minute. And I'm going to 404 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,679 Speaker 3: give some suggestions and some strategies, but I want to 405 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:56,119 Speaker 3: preface this by saying, hold compassion for yourself when trying 406 00:20:56,159 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 3: to make these changes, because, as we've said, certain apps 407 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 3: are designed to keep us on there for as long 408 00:21:03,399 --> 00:21:05,959 Speaker 3: as possible. They active pathways in the brain that are 409 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 3: below our conscious awareness, and so it is really hard 410 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 3: to make some of these changes for ourselves. So let's 411 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 3: just keep that in mind and keep that in perspective. 412 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,199 Speaker 3: I'm going to suggest a twofold approach to trying to 413 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:22,639 Speaker 3: make some changes for ourselves. One is around practically limiting 414 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 3: our screen use, and the other is around increasing more 415 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:29,719 Speaker 3: values aligned behaviors and being able to do both of 416 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 3: these simultaneously. So if we first talk about limiting screen use, 417 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:39,640 Speaker 3: this is where the real practical stuff comes into it, 418 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:44,679 Speaker 3: So things like limiting access to certain apps. So this 419 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:46,919 Speaker 3: might mean that at certain points in the week or 420 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 3: certain points in the day, you actually uninstall apps from 421 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,879 Speaker 3: your phone. It might mean that you put your phone 422 00:21:51,919 --> 00:21:54,159 Speaker 3: on flight mode. This is something I do or do 423 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,120 Speaker 3: not disturb if I don't want to be interrupted with notifications. 424 00:21:57,679 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 3: It might mean that you download something called the dumb Phone. 425 00:22:01,679 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 3: So there's an actual app. I met Michael the who 426 00:22:05,159 --> 00:22:07,999 Speaker 3: designed this app recently, so he created an app that 427 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 3: sort of turns your phone into a dumb phone, and 428 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,120 Speaker 3: if you see it, it looks much less exciting than 429 00:22:14,159 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 3: how typical phones. It might be that you decide to 430 00:22:18,159 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 3: change your phone to grayscale. This is a really quick 431 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 3: and easy and effective one if anyone just wants a 432 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 3: quick tip for trying to make some changes fast, put 433 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 3: your phone on grayscale, scroll TikTok or Instagram and see 434 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:34,119 Speaker 3: how much less exciting the phone looks when you're looking 435 00:22:34,159 --> 00:22:36,400 Speaker 3: at it in black and white and gray as opposed 436 00:22:36,399 --> 00:22:39,159 Speaker 3: to in color. Color is quite exciting for the brain, 437 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,919 Speaker 3: so we're taking some of that excitement away. So looking 438 00:22:42,919 --> 00:22:46,640 Speaker 3: at these practical strategies, if you happen to be listening 439 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 3: and you're a parent and you want guidance around managing 440 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:54,679 Speaker 3: kid and teen phone usage, the e Safety website have 441 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 3: some really really great resources around family tech agreements, and 442 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:01,279 Speaker 3: this is where the whole family can come together and 443 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,399 Speaker 3: agree on tech use in the home. You know, do 444 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 3: we maybe have spaces in the home where we agree 445 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,199 Speaker 3: that we're not going to have phones, for example, the 446 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 3: dinner table or in bed. So having these shared family 447 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:14,679 Speaker 3: agreements can be really useful. 448 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:16,719 Speaker 1: I really love that. And that's so good that the 449 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 1: e Safety website has that. We'll have to put a 450 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: link into the show notes. But it's interesting you talk 451 00:23:21,639 --> 00:23:25,640 Speaker 1: about no phones in the bedroom, because yeah, okay, I'm 452 00:23:25,639 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 1: going to say, YO and I we don't do this anymore. 453 00:23:27,919 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: But when we were first married and we moved into 454 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,959 Speaker 1: our new apartment, it was very exciting. We didn't have 455 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 1: phones in the bedroom. Like it was like these non 456 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,719 Speaker 1: negotiable rules that we both like followed. We abide to 457 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 1: the rules, and it was so good because I was 458 00:23:40,639 --> 00:23:43,159 Speaker 1: in my room, I'll just be journaling, and it was 459 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:46,680 Speaker 1: like a really nice, sacred space. But now I say, 460 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 1: that's what we used to do, because now I don't 461 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: do that. But when it worked, it actually was really effective. 462 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,439 Speaker 1: And I think, doesn't it take like thirty days to 463 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:56,959 Speaker 1: build a habit anyways or something like that. So I 464 00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:58,919 Speaker 1: guess this is kind of the layer of compassion, to 465 00:23:58,919 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 1: bring compassion to all of this. 466 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 3: Exactly, and recognizing that when we do put these block 467 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,479 Speaker 3: in place, we are gonna have urges to go back to, 468 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,159 Speaker 3: you know, the app or to the phone. I know 469 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 3: I've had times where I've uninstalled or deactivated sort of 470 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 3: accounts of social media and I will literally open my 471 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,160 Speaker 3: phone and press exactly where the icon would be, automatically 472 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 3: without thinking. And it's not until it opens up and 473 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 3: it's like you've locked out or you've deactivated this account 474 00:24:26,679 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 3: temporarily that I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm doing that thing 475 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,160 Speaker 3: where I'm not looking at social media, but it's an 476 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 3: automatic habit and reaction to open and press the icon. 477 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 4: It's so true. It's interesting. 478 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,400 Speaker 1: Like, I know you mentioned about the app that your 479 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:43,119 Speaker 1: friend Michael has, so I've been using another app called Opal, 480 00:24:43,399 --> 00:24:46,399 Speaker 1: So that's another social media time restriction one and it 481 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 1: worked really well. I have to admit I have been 482 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,720 Speaker 1: ignoring the limit and I have been exceeding. And it's 483 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,399 Speaker 1: an interesting one because I'm sure there's people tuning in 484 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,479 Speaker 1: that have tried these strategies and it's still not working. 485 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,400 Speaker 1: And I'm keen to get your lens on, Like, how 486 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,680 Speaker 1: do we bring compassion to this because I so desperately 487 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: would like to not be addicted to my phone. 488 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:13,439 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's remembering that this is something that is 489 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,160 Speaker 3: designed to keep you on there. I mean, and it's 490 00:25:16,159 --> 00:25:17,919 Speaker 3: not just social media we're talking about. I mean, there 491 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 3: was a there was a very famous quote that came 492 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:24,920 Speaker 3: out from streaming service, a popular streaming service a few 493 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,120 Speaker 3: years back, where it said, we're not competing with other 494 00:25:27,159 --> 00:25:32,639 Speaker 3: streaming services, we're competing with sleep ah what. So I 495 00:25:32,679 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 3: think that really just clearly highlights the message of you know, 496 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 3: we're doing all this work trying to be like, let 497 00:25:38,399 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 3: me find another app to help me manage my use, 498 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:42,360 Speaker 3: and let me put my phone in one of those 499 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 3: boxes where I can't you know, access it, and let 500 00:25:44,879 --> 00:25:46,919 Speaker 3: me put limits and let me download E safety. You know, 501 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 3: we're doing all these things because they're designs to keep 502 00:25:51,879 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 3: us on there for as long as possible. And so 503 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:55,719 Speaker 3: I think the compassion comes in knowing that. 504 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 1: So how about values aligned behaviors You were speaking to 505 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:00,040 Speaker 1: that a little bit before. 506 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:05,119 Speaker 3: Yes, so while we try to reduce our SCREA in use, 507 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,159 Speaker 3: that's not going to be enough because what will typically 508 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,039 Speaker 3: happen if that's all we try to do. We'll do 509 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 3: that successfully for one week, two weeks however long, and 510 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 3: then and then at some point we'll just go back 511 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 3: to doing what we were doing before, Right, because it's 512 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,439 Speaker 3: hard work. We're kind of like right knuckling it the 513 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 3: whole time. It's it's difficult. So what we have to 514 00:26:23,639 --> 00:26:27,119 Speaker 3: do at the same time is increase other behaviors. Right, 515 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 3: we're going to spend less time on a screen. It 516 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 3: means we're going to have more time for other stuff. 517 00:26:32,679 --> 00:26:34,399 Speaker 3: So how are we going to feel that time? We 518 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:36,879 Speaker 3: can just fill it in random ways, but what I 519 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 3: recommend is we feel it in ways that are values aligned. 520 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 3: So we've talked about values before, but this is where 521 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 3: it comes back to being able to reflect on what 522 00:26:45,639 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 3: are those things that are most important to me, and 523 00:26:48,679 --> 00:26:52,919 Speaker 3: being able to substitute that time with actions and behaviors 524 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 3: that align with those values that I hold. If I 525 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 3: hold the value of creativity, what can I do during 526 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 3: that time that is creative? I hold the value of adventure? 527 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 3: What can I do that's adventures Instead of, you know, 528 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 3: spending a Sunday afternoon scrolling on my phone, I go 529 00:27:08,639 --> 00:27:11,159 Speaker 3: out and do some new activity, you know, doing things 530 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:16,479 Speaker 3: that align with our values, creates a stronger buffer for 531 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 3: us to then sort of resist the urge to want 532 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 3: to go back on our screens in the way that 533 00:27:21,159 --> 00:27:22,119 Speaker 3: we previously did. 534 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,999 Speaker 1: I can imagine as well readjusting there can be a 535 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 1: bit of resistance to that too, because I definitely can 536 00:27:28,879 --> 00:27:31,199 Speaker 1: feel that tendency to want to just jump back on 537 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,119 Speaker 1: my phone. But then it's like, Okay, Shanny, what our 538 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:34,119 Speaker 1: activities you can do? 539 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:35,639 Speaker 4: I've got some homework to do. 540 00:27:40,639 --> 00:27:45,879 Speaker 3: Barb, Barb, Barb. I'm poving a serious Cristians BRB having 541 00:27:45,879 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 3: a crisis. 542 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:50,119 Speaker 1: We've reached that time in our episode where we answer 543 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,719 Speaker 1: a question or dilemma from one of you. But are 544 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 1: you happy listeners, Anastasia, This one comes from mel. 545 00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:00,199 Speaker 5: Lately, I've noticed this weird compulsion. I'll be having a 546 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,920 Speaker 5: normal day, maybe even a good one, and suddenly I'm 547 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 5: deep in some article about climate collapse or doom, scrolling 548 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,279 Speaker 5: through headlines about everything going wrong in the world, and 549 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,279 Speaker 5: I know it's not good for me. I can feel 550 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 5: my chest tighten, my mood dip, my brain just goes 551 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:16,719 Speaker 5: into panic mode. But I keep doing it over and 552 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,159 Speaker 5: over again, like some part of me thinks staying constantly informed, 553 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,959 Speaker 5: even overwhelmed, is more responsible than stepping back. But is 554 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 5: it At what point does this awareness just turn into anxiety? 555 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,399 Speaker 3: This is such a great question. I'm really glad this 556 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,399 Speaker 3: one came through because we've talked about the addictive nature 557 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 3: of apps, we've talked about social comparison, but we haven't 558 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 3: talked too much in this episode about sort of doom 559 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:47,959 Speaker 3: scrolling and the consumption of a lot of news content. Yeah, 560 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 3: and so mel, I want to start off by validating 561 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 3: your experience by actually sharing some statistics with you. So 562 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 3: this came out from the twenty twenty five Digital News Report, 563 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 3: which tells us that an increasing amount of people are 564 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 3: actually going to social media as their main form of 565 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 3: news consumption. So true, So people are actually shifting away 566 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 3: from traditional news outlets to consume news and apparently it's 567 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 3: one in four that say social media is their main 568 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 3: source of where they get their news from. In addition 569 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 3: to this, there's also reports that say since about twenty sixteen, 570 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 3: people are reporting that they are wanting to consume news less. 571 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 3: And I think this speaks to the kind of rise 572 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 3: of social media and the way in which we have 573 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 3: actually been fed news and I use the word fed 574 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,759 Speaker 3: very deliberately because we're not always choosing to consume some 575 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 3: of this news online and through our social media. It 576 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 3: is just given to us, and we feel like we 577 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:51,999 Speaker 3: really don't have a choice in what we see sometimes. 578 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 3: So I say this to validate that people are getting 579 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 3: a lot of their news online, but people are not 580 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 3: always necessarily choosing that. We end up scrolling and seeing 581 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 3: all these awful stories about wars, about political things that 582 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 3: are happening, about climate change, financial crises, all these things, 583 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 3: and it can be very overwhelming. Historically, we haven't had 584 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 3: so much access to news. This is a new thing. 585 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:20,640 Speaker 3: So if you find yourself stuck doom scrolling news and 586 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,479 Speaker 3: some of that negative content that we can see with news, 587 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 3: I would encourage you to ask yourself the question, am 588 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 3: I doom scrolling for reassurance, for distraction or for control? 589 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 3: Because we might find that there is a part of 590 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,719 Speaker 3: reading through and looking through and watching videos that are 591 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 3: all about climate change that provides us something, some sort 592 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 3: of reassurance that someone's doing something, some sort of sense 593 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 3: of control that I feel like, well, now that I 594 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,239 Speaker 3: have the information, I can do something, or it might 595 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 3: feel like a distraction from other things in our life, 596 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 3: but really kind of reflect on the question of why 597 00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 3: am I doing this? Why am I going deep down 598 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 3: this rabbit hole? And if you can answer that question 599 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 3: for yourself, it might help you to be able to 600 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 3: kind of put the pause button in place and step 601 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,239 Speaker 3: away from the phone for a period of time. 602 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 1: Anastasia, can you reiterate on the main takeaways from today's episode, 603 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 1: I'll do my best. 604 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 3: First of all, screen time and social media, especially excessive 605 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 3: screen time can be detrimental for our mental health. Secondly, 606 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 3: these apps are designed to be addictive, so when you 607 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 3: are trying to make changes, hold compassion for yourself. And third, 608 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:39,759 Speaker 3: if you do find yourself stuck scrolling excessively, I encourage 609 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 3: you to take a two prong approach where you try 610 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 3: and limit screen time while also increasing values aligned behaviors. 611 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:48,959 Speaker 1: If you have a burning question for us, there's a 612 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 1: few ways to get in touch with us, links through 613 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:51,959 Speaker 1: in the show notes. 614 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 3: And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't 615 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 3: a diagnostic tool, and the ideas we present here should 616 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 3: always take into account your personal medical history. 617 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: Next week, we're going to have another mythbustering episode. We 618 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 1: know you guys love It, and this one is on OCD. 619 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 3: The senior producer of But Are You Happy is Charlie Blackman. 620 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 1: Executive producer is Naima Brown, and social producer is Gemma Donaho. 621 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 3: Sound design and editing by Tina Mattalov. 622 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,959 Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram and TikTok at But 623 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 1: Are You Happy Pod? 624 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:26,480 Speaker 4: I'm a Shani Dante. 625 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 3: And I'm Doctor Anastasia Hernas. The names and stories of 626 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 3: clients discussed have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity. 627 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,719 Speaker 3: If this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you, 628 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 3: we have links for more resources in the show notes 629 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 3: around the topics we discussed today. You can also reach 630 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 3: out to organizations like Beyond Blue or Lifeline if you're 631 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 3: wanting more immediate support. 632 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, See you next week. You're listening to 633 00:32:57,760 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 1: I'm Ama Mia podcast. 634 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 3: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and 635 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:07,719 Speaker 3: waters that this podcast is recorded on. Mamma Mia acknowledges 636 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 3: the traditional owners of the land and waters that this 637 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 3: podcast is recorded on.