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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia out loud. It's what women are actually talking

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Speaker 2: about on Wednesday, the eighth of October. I'm Holly Waynwright.

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Speaker 3: I'm Jesse Stevens, and I'm Amelia Lester.

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Speaker 2: And here's what's made our agenda today.

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Speaker 3: We are on day six of the Taylor Swift Life

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Speaker 3: Event discourse exactly right, and today Swift is in trouble.

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Speaker 3: You may have missed why. We discuss why some fans

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Speaker 3: are very pissed off.

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Speaker 4: And we're going to talk about Klana maxink. That's a

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Speaker 4: new term for the buy now, pay later lifestyle. But

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Speaker 4: there might be a dark side to young women buying

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Speaker 4: luxury goods with these services.

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Speaker 2: And j Lo and Ben, I don't know. I don't

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Speaker 2: know if we're ready to go through all this again. Friends,

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Speaker 2: we need to hold hands and discuss why some should

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Speaker 2: just not try to be friends.

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Speaker 3: We have some urgent thoughts. But first, Jesse, in case

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Speaker 3: you missed it, there has been a surge in shark

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Speaker 3: tracking app downloads, which is following the death of a

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Speaker 3: surfer in d Y last month. So after people saw

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Speaker 3: that news, thousands of people, particularly in New South Wales,

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Speaker 3: downloaded the app Shark Smart. There's another one called dorsal something.

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Speaker 2: That's the one I've got.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and it works by providing real time alerts about

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Speaker 3: tagged shark detections and also sightings from surf life saving drones. Now,

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Speaker 3: while your actual chances of being attacked by a shark

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Speaker 3: in Australia are ridiculously low, you're far more likely to

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Speaker 3: get caught in, say a lethal rip. Incidents of shark

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Speaker 3: attacks in Australia have gone up for a variety of reasons.

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Speaker 3: I knew about changes in coastal erosion and even climate

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Speaker 3: change and a bunch of things. And also more people

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Speaker 3: are using Australian beaches than ever before in history, right,

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Speaker 3: more people are swimmingulation growth, lots of tourists exactly exactly right,

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Speaker 3: So it does make sense. But in saying that, the

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Speaker 3: approach to any injuries with sharks has improved astronomically, so

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Speaker 3: it is very unlikely to have a fatal shark attack

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Speaker 3: now I would know. So, Holly, you have a shark

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Speaker 3: tracking app. I do and for all the surfing you do.

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Speaker 2: Look, it's interesting because you know, I'm against tracking in general.

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Speaker 2: I want to respect the sharks. Yeah, but I have

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Speaker 2: dorsal and I don't know why my relationship with it

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Speaker 2: this summer is going to be complicated because, without wanting

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Speaker 2: to sound flippant about what has clearly been you know,

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Speaker 2: very traumatic incidents and loss of life, the problem with

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Speaker 2: it is is now I get pinged all the time.

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Speaker 2: So I live near the coast and on the south

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Speaker 2: coast of New South Wales, and so my area you

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Speaker 2: know that you select the area that you're interested in,

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Speaker 2: and it's quite big and it pings all the time,

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Speaker 2: and that's quite alarming. So you open your thing and

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Speaker 2: there's a little shark fin and it's at beach near

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Speaker 2: where I live, and it's at there, and it's there

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Speaker 2: and it says this is a white, this is a bronzer,

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Speaker 2: this is and it kind of messes with my head

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Speaker 2: because then I also think, oh, these are only the

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Speaker 2: tag sharks, because I think, and don't at me if

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Speaker 2: I got this wrong, but I think the way I

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Speaker 2: thought that these are sharks that are.

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Speaker 3: Tagged, they're tagged, And then I'm not sure if this

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Speaker 3: is Jossil as well, but there's like drone technology used

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Speaker 3: by places that they kind of look over when the

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Speaker 3: water's they can see.

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Speaker 2: These are basically the sharks.

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Speaker 1: We know about.

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Speaker 4: And what this means is the holly sharks, the ones

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Speaker 4: that resent being trapped figure out all these like sneaky

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Speaker 4: ways to swim under the radar.

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Speaker 1: We're not even thinking.

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Speaker 3: They are not on fine, my friends, they are not.

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Speaker 2: And the thing is is it's changed my mindset. So

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Speaker 2: you know, I might walk along the beach then where

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Speaker 2: I live, and I usually look out the sea and

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Speaker 2: I thinking that's beautiful. If it's a lovely day, I'm

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Speaker 2: going to go for a swim. Now I'm finding myself

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Speaker 2: looking out there and going I know what's out there,

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Speaker 2: And it's changing my relationship with the ocean. So I wonder,

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Speaker 2: like I wonder if they're really sensible and help us

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Speaker 2: assess risk or if they make us mentally increase the risk.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and also if it makes us acknowledge who the

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Speaker 3: ocean primarily belongs to. Right, it's like the idea that

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Speaker 3: they're going to exist and we have to work out

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Speaker 3: how to coexist. But I was also thinking I got

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Speaker 3: stuck in a rip like a few years ago. It

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Speaker 3: was really scary, Yeah, terrifying, And I'm like, oh, there's

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Speaker 3: got to be an app that tells me where there's

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Speaker 3: a rip. Of course there is some app. It's a

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Speaker 3: bit of a less interesting app, right of fins exactly,

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Speaker 3: less shark fins. But I'm like, that would probably be

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Speaker 3: more useful if before we got in the water we

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Speaker 3: all checked to go, all.

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Speaker 2: Right, assess the danger of this beach.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, listen, I need an app for something else. Magpies

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Speaker 4: in swooping season, No, and I got swooped twice.

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Speaker 3: Yes, where were you?

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Speaker 2: Sorry?

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Speaker 3: That sounded like victim blaming. I'm so sorry, but where Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you're next time? Asked me what I was wearing. And

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Speaker 3: by the way, there's no truth to the fact that

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Speaker 3: they swoop particular colors.

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Speaker 4: So before you, okay what I was wearing, which was

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Speaker 4: a beige hat, If that's okay with you, Jesse, it

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Speaker 4: needed eyes on the bat.

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Speaker 3: So were you in a park?

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Speaker 4: No, I was just walking in my neighborhood and this

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Speaker 4: magpie swoops me and then I have to cross over

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Speaker 4: the street and he clearly has a vendetta. They do

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Speaker 4: whole grudges. They do because they know about faces. They

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Speaker 4: know up to two hundred human faces, and they remember

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Speaker 4: them for up to twenty years.

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Speaker 1: So this smagpie clearly hates me.

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Speaker 4: And now I've been advised you cannot walk down that

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Speaker 4: street during swooping season because now he thinks you really

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Speaker 4: are a threat. Something about you really triggered him. And

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Speaker 4: it's a hymn. They're all male. You just got to

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Speaker 4: avoid that street for the rest of the month.

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Speaker 3: Okay, that's helpful.

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Speaker 2: It belongs to the birds.

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Speaker 4: But there is a tracking, a way to track magpie swoopings.

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Speaker 4: I've gone deep on this. There are websites where you

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Speaker 4: can in real time see people logging their magpie swoopings,

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Speaker 4: which I did.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of them around right now.

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Speaker 3: Did I tell you I was in a really bad

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Speaker 3: mood once and I walked out onto the street and

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Speaker 3: a magpie went for me, got me in the eye.

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Speaker 3: I remember that I got swooped by a magpie in

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Speaker 3: the eye, and I was like, I defended you, like

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Speaker 3: people who were afraid of birds. I was always like that, samuch,

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Speaker 3: I have a like now now you.

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Speaker 1: Do think they're little dinosaur?

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's kind of funny. It's kind of funny seeing

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Speaker 2: someone's being swooped if they're not get hurt. I acknowledge

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Speaker 2: this is wrong, but I was in my neighborhood the

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Speaker 2: other week and there was a kid and he had

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Speaker 2: a bike helmet on and I even had those things

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Speaker 2: sticking out of it, because kids are very savvy on

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Speaker 2: their bikes around my neighborhood. They'll put like cable ties

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Speaker 2: sticking out of their helmet and stuff to deter them.

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Speaker 2: And there was a kid. He was riding along the

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Speaker 2: pavement and these magpies just kept swooping him, and he

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Speaker 2: was like, it was actually very amusing to watch. He

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Speaker 2: was fine, nobody was hurt, but it was just very primal,

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Speaker 2: very boy versus and I think he was kind of

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Speaker 2: enjoying it because then he went to the end of

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Speaker 2: the road turn around.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I just thought it was so funny, but I'm sorry,

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Speaker 2: I know it's not funny.

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Speaker 3: I saw a post by rider Caroline O'donnaho yesterday that

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Speaker 3: read people will winge all year that culture has become

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Speaker 3: too splintered and that there are no water cooler moments anymore,

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Speaker 3: and then lose their shit if an album or movie

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Speaker 3: is in the news for longer than three days.

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Speaker 2: This is entirely accurate because we're having one of those

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Speaker 2: what do we call a monocultural moment, yes because yesterday

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Speaker 2: I was out and about around Sydney work and all

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Speaker 2: you could hear coming out of every car and every

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Speaker 2: shop was that new Taylor Swift single, The Fate of Aphilia,

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Speaker 2: And it was very unifying. It felt great. It was

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Speaker 2: a warm evening and that song was everywhere, and you

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Speaker 2: were like, when was the last time we were all

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Speaker 2: playing the same.

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Speaker 3: The same song exactly, And then people get annoyed because

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Speaker 3: they're like, well, I don't even like it, it's overrated.

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Speaker 3: You can't say that it's overrated, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: And you don't know enough about this artist to have

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Speaker 2: an opinion about editing. When then you like that song.

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Speaker 3: Or not, you know what you actually know too much,

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Speaker 3: So how about that?

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Speaker 1: Exactly?

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Speaker 3: We are on day six of the Taylor Swift Life

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Speaker 3: of a Showgirl discourse, and today's chapter is all about AI.

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Speaker 3: So we talked about all the tail, the disk track,

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Speaker 3: the treadwife, accusations, accusation on yesterday's Too Much Bread. But

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Speaker 3: today we're going to talk about why Taylor is in trouble.

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Speaker 3: So on Saturday, our time, something about a bunch of

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Speaker 3: orange doors were hidden in twelve cities around the world.

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Speaker 3: There was a treasure hunt. There was something about like

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Speaker 3: you'd go to the door. There was a QR code.

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Speaker 3: None of this needs to make sense. Just stay with this,

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Speaker 3: just roll with it. What you might have actually seen

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Speaker 3: is that if you went on Google that day, they

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Speaker 3: had a special Taylor Swift themed kind of info thing,

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Speaker 3: you know how they come with sometimes out.

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Speaker 2: Loud to posted about it and said go and google

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Speaker 2: Taylor Swift and see what happens. So I did, because

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Speaker 2: I do it loud to tell me, and that very

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Speaker 2: quickly didn't understand.

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Speaker 3: Exactly well, that was part of it, right. So these

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Speaker 3: twelve doors led to twelve videos which were part of

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Speaker 3: a promotional scavenger hunt released by Google. So what's the problem,

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Speaker 3: what's the problem?

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Speaker 2: Bit of fun the kind of thing that people do

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Speaker 2: all the time for.

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Speaker 3: Emotion, exactly. It feels a bit Pokemon go.

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Speaker 2: How famous do you have to be? The take out

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Speaker 2: of Google? Like? Could I do it? On a book release?

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Speaker 3: So fans started noticing that these videos looked very AI

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Speaker 3: So there's a finger that goes through a napkin. A

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Speaker 3: hanger is there and then that disappears. There's a treadmill,

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Speaker 3: but all the letters are gibberish. To summarize. Look, I've

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Speaker 3: seen these videos along with most people on the internet.

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Speaker 3: These videos are AI. Taylor hasn't confirmed it. None's officially

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Speaker 3: confirmed it, but they just are.

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Speaker 4: One of them looks distinctly like the prompts they put

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Speaker 4: into the generative. AI was something about George Michael's Freedom

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Speaker 4: ninety video. Do you remember that iconic musically here with

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Speaker 4: the supermodels and the bathtub and the dark mansion.

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Speaker 1: That was absolutely the prompt.

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Speaker 3: Okay, that's how it felt, right. So this is from

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Speaker 3: an artist who has fiercely advocated for artists' rights. That's

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Speaker 3: always been her beat. She has spoken out about pornographic

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Speaker 3: deep fakes, which are created by AI, that she's been

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Speaker 3: a victim of that. Last year, she explicitly called out

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump after he used an AI generated image of

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Speaker 3: Taylor endorsing him for president, and she said this has

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Speaker 3: conjured up my fears around AI. Now the closer I look,

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Speaker 3: the more I think that people are missing a very

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Speaker 3: key piece of the puzzle.

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Speaker 1: Here.

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Speaker 3: But before we get to that, what do you guys

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Speaker 3: make of this use of AI. Do you think that

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Speaker 3: it's us all being a little bit hysterical or do

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Speaker 3: you think it's a real misstep.

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Speaker 4: No, I think it's a real mistep I think when

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Speaker 4: I watch aar videos like these, I feel sad. So

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Speaker 4: the one that looks like the George Michael Freedom ninety video,

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Speaker 4: it feels like an alien version of the George Michael

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Speaker 4: Freedom ninety video. It has none of the originality, it

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Speaker 4: has none of the punch, it has none of that

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Speaker 4: incredibly invigorating feeling when you see original creative art for

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Speaker 4: the first time. And I do have to point out,

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Speaker 4: sorry to be a down but generative AI is generative,

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Speaker 4: meaning it's drawing on what other artists have done to

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Speaker 4: create new things. So not only is she putting out

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Speaker 4: of work people who could have made those videos, she's

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Speaker 4: also drawing on work that other artists have produced without

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Speaker 4: paying for it.

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Speaker 1: And there's a huge environmental cost too. But we all

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Speaker 1: know that as well.

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Speaker 2: I have seen all these criticisms AI is stolen art,

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Speaker 2: as everybody knows it's accurate. The thing is, I think

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Speaker 2: that Taylor Swift, particularly at moments of mass saturation of

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Speaker 2: Taylor Swift, as we have been living through for almost

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Speaker 2: a week. As you point out, she becomes like the

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Speaker 2: lens through which you see everything in the culture and

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Speaker 2: every argument within the culture. So whether that is ambition

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Speaker 2: versus greed, you know, is she too greedy or is

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Speaker 2: she just an ambitious you know woman, hustle versus tradwifeism.

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Speaker 2: All of the conversations we're having, you can apply them

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Speaker 2: to a Taylor Swift moment like this one, Like pop

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Speaker 2: versus art is also one, you know, is this just

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Speaker 2: throwaway pop? Lots of people are saying, and then this

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Speaker 2: which is the AI versus the true artists. I think

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Speaker 2: that Amelia is right. I think that if you're taking

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Speaker 2: a serious view on it, it is nonsense that someone

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Speaker 2: as powerful as Taylor Swift, because she's become a corporation

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Speaker 2: in herself. She's very much and she draws criticism for this,

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Speaker 2: but is also massively admired for this at this point

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Speaker 2: in her career, in complete control of her kingdom in

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Speaker 2: a way that her queendom rather in a way that

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Speaker 2: most artists are certainly not. They are being dictated to

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Speaker 2: by record companies, marketing executives, all those things. Whereas we

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Speaker 2: all know that Swift has fought really, really hard to

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Speaker 2: have complete creative control of her world, and so because

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Speaker 2: of that, it also kind of opens her up to

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Speaker 2: personal criticism in a way that if the circumstances were different,

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Speaker 2: it wouldn't be And I think you said this in

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Speaker 2: the show yesterday the subscribers show that we did, Jesse.

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Speaker 2: Is that you know, there's obviously Taylor Swift the human,

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Speaker 2: there's Taylor Swift the artist, this tailor Swift the brand,

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Speaker 2: and Taylor with the brand is of course open for criticism.

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Speaker 2: I mean, all those people are to a point, but

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Speaker 2: because she is the queen of her kingdom, any criticism

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Speaker 2: of Taylor Swift the Brand quickly falls and translates into

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Speaker 2: criticism of her. So if the people who are saying

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Speaker 2: this use of AI is disappointing from somebody who has,

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Speaker 2: as you've both pointed out, been very stridently defensive of

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Speaker 2: artists who can afford to pay proper people to put

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Speaker 2: their videos together, that is all valid criticism, but where

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Speaker 2: it often ends up is silly, selfish billionaire, you know

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Speaker 2: what I mean. And that's kind of disappointing.

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Speaker 3: I reckon Taylor Swift is so pissed off. So it

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Speaker 3: was released by Google. Now Google has a brand new

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Speaker 3: product it is about to release that is going up

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Speaker 3: against Open Ai, and that product is an AI video generator,

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Speaker 3: and this is the biggest cultural moment of the year.

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Speaker 3: So Google, to my mind, has gone, how do we

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Speaker 3: harness the tailor Swift brand to promote this product?

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Speaker 2: But they can't do that.

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Speaker 3: They can't do that. Taylor Swift's okay, exactly right now.

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Speaker 3: I can see a world in which this was pitched

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Speaker 3: or whatever they went, We're gonna have doors, and we're

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Speaker 3: gonna have this and we're gonna have Easter eggs and

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Speaker 3: blah blah blah, and Taylor's team has thought, okay, that's fine.

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Speaker 3: But the fact that this hasn't been shared by Taylor Nation,

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Speaker 3: which is her official kind of what they share on Instagram.

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Speaker 3: It's been taken off the YouTube channels since it went up,

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Speaker 3: suggests to me that she is trying to distance herself

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Speaker 3: from it. It's cheap, it's anti art, it doesn't make

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Speaker 3: you feel anything, and it is in consistent with the

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Speaker 3: film that she released on the weekend. So I didn't

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Speaker 3: go and see it, but lots of people in the

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Speaker 3: office did. And the point of that film, whether you

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Speaker 3: liked it or not, was to show the perfectionism and

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Speaker 3: the control of Taylor Swift is like a creative genius,

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Speaker 3: Like she's going from the costumes to the set to

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Speaker 3: every little detail. There is not a shred of AI

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Speaker 3: in that. It is almost an ANTIAI project. So to

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Speaker 3: then have these weird promotional videos that are made with

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Speaker 3: Google AI software is just very bizarre.

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Speaker 4: Devil's advocate on this is that surveys have shown that

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Speaker 4: young people do not care as much about this notion

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Speaker 4: of AI art versus human art as older people do.

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Speaker 4: And these videos also, like there's been speculation, for instance,

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Speaker 4: there's like slippers and blankets depicted in the videos, and

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Speaker 4: there's been speculation that this will become part of the

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Speaker 4: merch world or the universe of things you can buy

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Speaker 4: related to the Showgirl era. I just wonder if, even

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Speaker 4: if she was involved, the thinking was that the target

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Speaker 4: audience for these kinds of things, people running around a

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Speaker 4: city taking QR code pictures, that's not probably going to

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Speaker 4: be older people, It's going to be younger people. And

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Speaker 4: maybe there's some way in which we need to get

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Speaker 4: over this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what I was going to ask, because although

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Speaker 2: obviously I, like quite deeply do believe that AI is

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Speaker 2: built on stolen art, I do also understand that Taylor

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Speaker 2: Swift and any really successful artist in this era has

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Speaker 2: to be always on in a way that means you

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Speaker 2: are generating stuff all the time, and she is very

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Speaker 2: good at that. She has adapted and her team have

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Speaker 2: adapted very quickly to every new platform that has come

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Speaker 2: her way. Because she's been famous in creating music long

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Speaker 2: enough that TikTok certainly wasn't a thing. YouTube phenomenon wasn't

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Speaker 2: a thing.

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Speaker 4: She was able to define new platforms which it took

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Speaker 4: her music off Spotify. She basically got Spotify to move

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Speaker 4: how it treated artists.

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Speaker 2: So she is very adaptable, very savvy, very technologically savvy.

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Speaker 2: Like her art is one thing, I don't think anyone

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Speaker 2: can argue that some exploding hearts on Google that you

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Speaker 2: press and get his art, it's not. It's just the

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Speaker 2: gamification that just adds to the And so of course

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Speaker 2: artists are going to use AI to make that kind

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Speaker 2: of stuff because it's not high stakes and the volume

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Speaker 2: that is required. Is it a good use of the

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Speaker 2: human artists time to be making tiny little blad videos

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Speaker 2: of this might be the bath that from the hotel

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Speaker 2: that maybe Taylor Swift wants lay in to recover from

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Speaker 2: her Barcelona show line.

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Speaker 3: And like video editors, graphic designers, creatives are terrified and

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Speaker 3: are losing jobs and are being replaced at a quicker

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Speaker 3: rate than pretty much anyone else. And I think that

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Speaker 3: this reveals probably the greatest tension, well, there are a

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Speaker 3: few tensions, but one of the greatest tensions in the

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Speaker 3: music industry at the moment, which is this fear of

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Speaker 3: AI and.

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Speaker 2: All creative industries to be honest.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And so to kind of have that as any

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Speaker 3: part of what you do feels like even if she

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Speaker 3: didn't know about it, I think you'd be kicking yourself

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Speaker 3: because you would want to and it sends a like

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Speaker 3: a feeling of disappointment.

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Speaker 1: When the audience for it.

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Speaker 4: I think Holly's point that great artists have to do

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Speaker 4: a lot of things. They're stretched in terms of their

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Speaker 4: own personal time and being able to fulfill all their projects,

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Speaker 4: but they're also.

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Speaker 1: Pushing the envelope.

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Speaker 4: They're changing what we think of as acceptable and as

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Speaker 4: normal redefining things, and I wonder if this is part

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Speaker 4: of us being left behind a little bit by this

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Speaker 4: new notion of what is art, and she's speaking to

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Speaker 4: younger people.

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Speaker 2: Before we move on. Jesse, I think in the same

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Speaker 2: way that I had to do a mere culpa when

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Speaker 2: I told all the out louders with such confidence that

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Speaker 2: Kate Middleton would never die her hair like that she

383
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Speaker 2: just wouldn't, and that she did, and I had to

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Speaker 2: say sorry, guys. I think we went viral a little

385
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Speaker 2: while ago for your theory that Taylor Swift was definitely

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Speaker 2: going to play the Super Bowl, and not only do

387
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Speaker 2: we know she's not because bad Bunny is, but she

388
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Speaker 2: spelled out on Jimmy Fallon last night why she definitely

389
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Speaker 2: wasn't going to. Do you have anything to say to

390
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Speaker 2: the other idea.

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Speaker 3: I tried to East Egg. I'm not a swifty and

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Speaker 3: I tried to East Egg. And sometimes we don't really

393
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Speaker 3: understand Easter eggs and you've just got to throw them

394
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Speaker 3: out there, and sometimes you go eastter egg hunting and

395
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Speaker 3: you just get a rapper. I tried. I was wrong.

396
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Speaker 3: I reserve my right to still lay claim to this

397
00:19:20,581 --> 00:19:22,302
Speaker 3: theory if it happens.

398
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Speaker 2: And some people, lots of people agreed with you. There

399
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Speaker 2: was something about sour dough being the logo for them.

400
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Speaker 3: Something about that there was an orange and blast. I

401
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Speaker 3: was like, I thought, this is how we played Easter Eggs.

402
00:19:32,061 --> 00:19:35,821
Speaker 1: Sour dough is the logo of any apparently.

403
00:19:36,341 --> 00:19:37,221
Speaker 2: Is anyway whatever.

404
00:19:37,542 --> 00:19:38,702
Speaker 3: We don't really understand.

405
00:19:38,742 --> 00:19:40,861
Speaker 2: She says she's definitely not going to and she's definitely

406
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Speaker 2: not going to.

407
00:19:41,542 --> 00:19:43,381
Speaker 3: Because Travis still plays.

408
00:19:43,462 --> 00:19:47,141
Speaker 2: She's hoping her man will be out there on the field,

409
00:19:47,742 --> 00:19:50,782
Speaker 2: like bashing into people and putting his skull at risk.

410
00:19:50,861 --> 00:19:53,621
Speaker 2: And she's like, I can't be working on my corrol.

411
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Speaker 3: Well, it's the kind of thing you say to throw

412
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Speaker 3: us off her scent.

413
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Speaker 2: I'm a bit stups never backsteaw.

414
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Speaker 3: I don't really understand Easter Eggs, but we just have

415
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Speaker 3: some fun with some theories, and ultimately they're very low steaks.

416
00:20:08,262 --> 00:20:11,262
Speaker 4: In a moment, would you have to pay your injectables?

417
00:20:11,702 --> 00:20:14,382
Speaker 4: We look into the dark side of buy now, pay

418
00:20:14,462 --> 00:20:21,741
Speaker 4: later culture. So, like everyone else, I've been listening to

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Speaker 4: Taylor's new album and there's a song on there called

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Speaker 4: Elizabeth Taylor, in which she sings, I would trade the

421
00:20:28,581 --> 00:20:33,022
Speaker 4: cartier for someone to trust talking about her now very famous,

422
00:20:33,581 --> 00:20:38,181
Speaker 4: very expensive Cartier watch that she also wore quite prominently

423
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Speaker 4: in her engagement photos with Travis Kelsey.

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Speaker 3: How much is a Cartier watch do you think?

425
00:20:42,821 --> 00:20:45,462
Speaker 4: So that exact model is no longer being sold new,

426
00:20:46,101 --> 00:20:49,262
Speaker 4: but vintage editions of it are going for upwards of

427
00:20:49,302 --> 00:20:52,421
Speaker 4: twenty thousand dollars or more, because of course everyone wants

428
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Speaker 4: one now.

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Speaker 1: And I love this watch.

430
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Speaker 4: When I saw in the engagement photos, I have a

431
00:20:56,982 --> 00:20:59,941
Speaker 4: really unattractive watch, Miya has in fact told me that

432
00:21:00,061 --> 00:21:03,702
Speaker 4: on occasion, and I'm aware of that. And I saw

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00:21:03,742 --> 00:21:05,982
Speaker 4: these photos of her wearing the Cartier and I thought,

434
00:21:06,022 --> 00:21:07,061
Speaker 4: that's a nice watch.

435
00:21:07,262 --> 00:21:08,381
Speaker 1: Maybe I should look into it.

436
00:21:08,422 --> 00:21:09,542
Speaker 3: Maybe she got it from Zaz.

437
00:21:11,262 --> 00:21:12,101
Speaker 1: So I googled the.

438
00:21:12,141 --> 00:21:14,902
Speaker 4: Cartier watch and discovered that if I could even get

439
00:21:14,901 --> 00:21:17,461
Speaker 4: my hands on one, it would be twenty five thousand dollars.

440
00:21:17,542 --> 00:21:20,901
Speaker 4: But I could use one of these buy now, pay

441
00:21:20,982 --> 00:21:24,662
Speaker 4: later programs or services to pay just a little bit

442
00:21:24,782 --> 00:21:27,262
Speaker 4: now and then pay the rest of it off later.

443
00:21:27,462 --> 00:21:28,901
Speaker 3: Whatever could go wrong.

444
00:21:28,821 --> 00:21:31,741
Speaker 1: But you've seen these right in every checkout page for

445
00:21:31,782 --> 00:21:34,821
Speaker 1: an online shop, you see the opportunity to get the

446
00:21:34,861 --> 00:21:37,582
Speaker 1: product now, pay a little bit for it and then

447
00:21:37,661 --> 00:21:38,621
Speaker 1: pay it off later.

448
00:21:38,742 --> 00:21:40,661
Speaker 3: So for installments exactly.

449
00:21:40,742 --> 00:21:43,302
Speaker 4: So the various companies that do this after pays an

450
00:21:43,341 --> 00:21:46,782
Speaker 4: Australian one, there's also Zip, there's Klana. So you see

451
00:21:46,821 --> 00:21:50,141
Speaker 4: these companies on every checkout now. And the way that

452
00:21:50,141 --> 00:21:53,662
Speaker 4: it's different to old fashioned layby is layby was all

453
00:21:53,702 --> 00:21:57,742
Speaker 4: about paying gradually and then getting the product. But these

454
00:21:57,782 --> 00:22:01,421
Speaker 4: news services say you get the product and then you

455
00:22:01,542 --> 00:22:04,621
Speaker 4: pay for it. Buy now, pay later, much more attractive,

456
00:22:04,821 --> 00:22:08,901
Speaker 4: much more attractive. So I managed to avoid going into

457
00:22:09,141 --> 00:22:13,502
Speaker 4: debt for my Cartier. But sefer that is not to

458
00:22:13,542 --> 00:22:15,982
Speaker 4: say I have not been tempted before, and a generation

459
00:22:16,222 --> 00:22:19,061
Speaker 4: is now turning to buy now, pay later for everything

460
00:22:19,061 --> 00:22:22,101
Speaker 4: from botox to concert tickets, says a recent article in

461
00:22:22,101 --> 00:22:24,341
Speaker 4: the Wall Street Journal. I was staggered by these numbers.

462
00:22:24,422 --> 00:22:28,261
Speaker 4: Forty percent of Australians use these services regularly. Millennials make

463
00:22:28,341 --> 00:22:31,742
Speaker 4: up seventy five percent of users of these various services.

464
00:22:32,381 --> 00:22:35,662
Speaker 4: And a recent US study nailed the problem with them,

465
00:22:35,661 --> 00:22:38,741
Speaker 4: which is, yes, they're interest free if you pay them

466
00:22:38,782 --> 00:22:41,501
Speaker 4: off on time. They're not interest free if you end

467
00:22:41,581 --> 00:22:43,542
Speaker 4: up having to pay over a longer period, as a

468
00:22:43,542 --> 00:22:46,581
Speaker 4: lot of people do. And what these loans make you

469
00:22:46,661 --> 00:22:49,982
Speaker 4: do is buy things you would not have otherwise bought.

470
00:22:50,101 --> 00:22:51,542
Speaker 1: That's the sweet spot for them.

471
00:22:51,942 --> 00:22:54,742
Speaker 4: So various people interviewed in this Wall Street Journal article

472
00:22:54,782 --> 00:22:56,782
Speaker 4: on New York Times article on the subject was also

473
00:22:56,861 --> 00:23:00,382
Speaker 4: coming out recently. They've bought Harry style tickets, they've bought flights,

474
00:23:00,462 --> 00:23:03,421
Speaker 4: they've bought luxury lipsticks. We've talked about the Louis Vuitton

475
00:23:03,462 --> 00:23:05,782
Speaker 4: one hundred and eighty dollars lipstick. They're buying that on

476
00:23:05,821 --> 00:23:08,981
Speaker 4: the buy now, pay later the consumer psychology this is

477
00:23:09,022 --> 00:23:11,782
Speaker 4: really old. We all know I'd rather pay a dollar

478
00:23:11,821 --> 00:23:14,462
Speaker 4: a day for a year than three hundred and sixty

479
00:23:14,462 --> 00:23:16,621
Speaker 4: five dollars up front. But there does seem to be

480
00:23:16,742 --> 00:23:19,781
Speaker 4: something new in this idea that like, why did I

481
00:23:19,821 --> 00:23:21,462
Speaker 4: think I could buy a cashier watch?

482
00:23:21,502 --> 00:23:23,101
Speaker 1: Why was that even on my radar?

483
00:23:23,302 --> 00:23:25,581
Speaker 4: And why was it tempting for me to pay a

484
00:23:25,581 --> 00:23:27,742
Speaker 4: little bit now and then a lot later for it?

485
00:23:27,782 --> 00:23:28,061
Speaker 2: Holy?

486
00:23:28,262 --> 00:23:28,821
Speaker 1: Is this new?

487
00:23:29,661 --> 00:23:32,102
Speaker 2: Yes? And no, I think that. You know, we've used

488
00:23:32,101 --> 00:23:34,701
Speaker 2: that analogy before of walking through business class to get

489
00:23:34,742 --> 00:23:37,182
Speaker 2: to economy, and how you're always more pissed off about

490
00:23:37,222 --> 00:23:39,941
Speaker 2: sitting in economy if you've walked through business class first.

491
00:23:40,782 --> 00:23:43,821
Speaker 2: Now we do that for everything because of social media.

492
00:23:43,901 --> 00:23:46,782
Speaker 2: So I have never obviously set foot in a first

493
00:23:46,782 --> 00:23:50,101
Speaker 2: class airplane section what if we call it? So I

494
00:23:50,141 --> 00:23:53,942
Speaker 2: don't know what it's called. But because of TikTok and Instagram,

495
00:23:53,982 --> 00:23:55,141
Speaker 2: I know exactly what they look like.

496
00:23:55,302 --> 00:23:57,381
Speaker 3: Cabin cabin, that's the word we're looking for.

497
00:23:57,742 --> 00:24:00,981
Speaker 2: I've never set foot in the first class cabin of

498
00:24:01,022 --> 00:24:03,421
Speaker 2: an airplane, but because of Instagram TikTok, I know exactly

499
00:24:03,462 --> 00:24:05,262
Speaker 2: what they look like. I know about the fluffy beds

500
00:24:05,262 --> 00:24:07,381
Speaker 2: and about the door. I know about the caveat service.

501
00:24:07,422 --> 00:24:09,061
Speaker 2: I know about all these things. I could even tell

502
00:24:09,061 --> 00:24:11,462
Speaker 2: you that different airlines have different like yeah, I could

503
00:24:11,462 --> 00:24:12,061
Speaker 2: tell you I.

504
00:24:12,022 --> 00:24:14,902
Speaker 1: Know which one I want to fly first.

505
00:24:14,742 --> 00:24:17,581
Speaker 2: Which is never going to happen. I have never owned

506
00:24:17,661 --> 00:24:20,542
Speaker 2: a designer handbag, but I know exactly that a Minnie

507
00:24:20,621 --> 00:24:23,382
Speaker 2: Kelly is more expensive than the bigger bags, even though

508
00:24:23,782 --> 00:24:25,621
Speaker 2: you can't fit an iPhone in it. I know this

509
00:24:25,661 --> 00:24:28,022
Speaker 2: stuff because it's all on social media. So we all

510
00:24:28,101 --> 00:24:30,701
Speaker 2: now have to walk through business class to get to

511
00:24:30,742 --> 00:24:34,181
Speaker 2: economy on everything from healthcare to skin care to beauty

512
00:24:34,222 --> 00:24:37,821
Speaker 2: to lunch to holidays. Like that's what it feels like, right, Yes,

513
00:24:38,302 --> 00:24:43,181
Speaker 2: and so that's why I think this is so appealing

514
00:24:43,262 --> 00:24:46,381
Speaker 2: in this moment. It's obviously really appealing to any have

515
00:24:46,462 --> 00:24:48,462
Speaker 2: to pay small amounts when we're all in the cost

516
00:24:48,462 --> 00:24:51,542
Speaker 2: of living crisis and everything's expensive. I saw in that

517
00:24:51,581 --> 00:24:54,901
Speaker 2: New York Times piece that two thirds of Coachella tickets

518
00:24:54,942 --> 00:24:55,581
Speaker 2: are brought this way.

519
00:24:55,661 --> 00:24:56,021
Speaker 1: Wow.

520
00:24:56,061 --> 00:24:57,861
Speaker 2: So and that makes it. I mean, we all know

521
00:24:57,901 --> 00:24:59,702
Speaker 2: how expensive it is to go to a concert now,

522
00:24:59,742 --> 00:25:01,862
Speaker 2: to go to any kind of event that you want

523
00:25:01,901 --> 00:25:05,101
Speaker 2: to go to, and so it makes financial sense in

524
00:25:05,141 --> 00:25:08,861
Speaker 2: this kind of cost of living crisis, but also luxury

525
00:25:08,901 --> 00:25:11,462
Speaker 2: goods that are, to quote what Jesse Stevens would say,

526
00:25:11,621 --> 00:25:15,542
Speaker 2: none of our business, like most people's business. The Cardier watch,

527
00:25:15,742 --> 00:25:16,461
Speaker 2: why should we know?

528
00:25:16,661 --> 00:25:18,101
Speaker 3: You know what I mean, It's better if I don't.

529
00:25:18,141 --> 00:25:20,581
Speaker 2: It's better if I don't. Is now sort of it

530
00:25:20,661 --> 00:25:24,981
Speaker 2: appears to be democratized because it's everywhere and everybody seems

531
00:25:24,982 --> 00:25:27,381
Speaker 2: to be tiktoking about them all the time, but they

532
00:25:27,422 --> 00:25:28,702
Speaker 2: are still very exclusive.

533
00:25:28,861 --> 00:25:31,942
Speaker 3: And that's not an accident. Amelia as well, that you've

534
00:25:31,942 --> 00:25:34,941
Speaker 3: felt for a moment like that what should belong to you?

535
00:25:35,422 --> 00:25:38,821
Speaker 3: And that's because there's been all this analysis done on

536
00:25:38,901 --> 00:25:42,221
Speaker 3: the feminization of these brands. So there was an article

537
00:25:42,222 --> 00:25:45,061
Speaker 3: in the Atlantic that talked about how these are being

538
00:25:45,101 --> 00:25:49,101
Speaker 3: framed as cute debt and even the use of the

539
00:25:49,101 --> 00:25:53,702
Speaker 3: word cute is like, there's something very female about having

540
00:25:53,742 --> 00:25:54,821
Speaker 3: a little bit of shopping debts.

541
00:25:54,982 --> 00:25:56,502
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's fine indulgence.

542
00:25:56,621 --> 00:25:59,302
Speaker 4: There's actually an afterpay ad that reads, eat the whole

543
00:25:59,341 --> 00:26:02,581
Speaker 4: tub of ice cream and spread the calories over six weeks.

544
00:26:02,621 --> 00:26:05,821
Speaker 3: Like that's a female code. It's a girl math, Yes, exactly.

545
00:26:06,661 --> 00:26:09,861
Speaker 3: There's also the cash app in the US and it

546
00:26:09,901 --> 00:26:13,222
Speaker 3: said little payments are so much cuter. And that's when

547
00:26:13,262 --> 00:26:16,981
Speaker 3: this writer named Annie Joy Williams looked at it and went, Okay,

548
00:26:17,022 --> 00:26:20,621
Speaker 3: this is not for men. And even Klana the brand

549
00:26:20,661 --> 00:26:22,461
Speaker 3: for a little while. I'm not sure if it still is,

550
00:26:22,462 --> 00:26:24,462
Speaker 3: but it was pink and one of the people who

551
00:26:24,502 --> 00:26:27,022
Speaker 3: was promoting it was Paris Hilton. It was this idea

552
00:26:27,141 --> 00:26:30,302
Speaker 3: that like, women are entitled to those little treats.

553
00:26:30,381 --> 00:26:31,581
Speaker 1: It's about treating yourself.

554
00:26:31,581 --> 00:26:33,821
Speaker 4: In fact, let's have a listen to the way that

555
00:26:33,861 --> 00:26:36,821
Speaker 4: this shows up on social media and on TikTok.

556
00:26:37,182 --> 00:26:38,861
Speaker 3: The payday sales got me good.

557
00:26:39,022 --> 00:26:44,621
Speaker 4: Okay, after paydays, say anyone else fall victim to after

558
00:26:44,661 --> 00:26:47,462
Speaker 4: payday sales because I assured it it's.

559
00:26:47,022 --> 00:26:50,182
Speaker 2: So dangerous because it's not new in that debt and

560
00:26:50,262 --> 00:26:53,302
Speaker 2: credit card debt has obviously often been marketed to the

561
00:26:53,341 --> 00:26:56,461
Speaker 2: youth market, but now it's much more stringent rules about that.

562
00:26:56,742 --> 00:27:00,461
Speaker 2: And in Australia the biden now pay later industry is

563
00:27:00,502 --> 00:27:02,581
Speaker 2: subject to pretty strict rules. This year they change the

564
00:27:02,661 --> 00:27:05,302
Speaker 2: rules on it, but still the marketing of it is

565
00:27:05,341 --> 00:27:08,542
Speaker 2: the wild West on social media, no question. And if

566
00:27:08,542 --> 00:27:11,742
Speaker 2: you're susceptible to that kind of mindset, and I certainly was.

567
00:27:11,782 --> 00:27:14,302
Speaker 2: I've spoken about this before on the show that when

568
00:27:14,341 --> 00:27:17,582
Speaker 2: I was younger, credit card debt that was a massive

569
00:27:17,581 --> 00:27:19,982
Speaker 2: problem for me. In this article, one of the women

570
00:27:20,022 --> 00:27:23,901
Speaker 2: interview talked about buying something on after pay for the

571
00:27:23,901 --> 00:27:26,341
Speaker 2: first time, and she says taking home such a treasure

572
00:27:26,742 --> 00:27:29,861
Speaker 2: for only a small cost upfront felt like stumbling across

573
00:27:29,901 --> 00:27:33,581
Speaker 2: a cheat code, a kind of unlock. And that is

574
00:27:33,742 --> 00:27:37,981
Speaker 2: exactly how I remember feeling when I first bought a

575
00:27:37,982 --> 00:27:39,902
Speaker 2: pair of genes on credit card for the first time,

576
00:27:40,022 --> 00:27:42,782
Speaker 2: Like putting that card down knowing I didn't have the

577
00:27:42,821 --> 00:27:45,981
Speaker 2: money for the genes and walking out with those genes,

578
00:27:46,581 --> 00:27:49,181
Speaker 2: it unlocked something in my brain. It's not anything to

579
00:27:49,222 --> 00:27:51,221
Speaker 2: be proud of. I'm sure it's you know, to do

580
00:27:51,262 --> 00:27:53,862
Speaker 2: with your makeup in lots of ways that then went

581
00:27:53,901 --> 00:27:56,101
Speaker 2: on to have really serious repercusions. For me, I got

582
00:27:56,101 --> 00:27:58,182
Speaker 2: in so much credit card debt when I was young.

583
00:27:58,542 --> 00:28:00,542
Speaker 2: It came back to bite me later in life. It

584
00:28:00,661 --> 00:28:03,501
Speaker 2: still plays out sometimes. My attitude to money can be

585
00:28:03,621 --> 00:28:07,262
Speaker 2: terrible and if you're susceptible to that, because some people aren't,

586
00:28:07,262 --> 00:28:09,061
Speaker 2: they're like, I'm scared of debt. I never want to

587
00:28:09,061 --> 00:28:11,861
Speaker 2: get a debt. And the marketing of this doesn't talk

588
00:28:11,901 --> 00:28:14,861
Speaker 2: about debt noticing no, because dad is a big scary word,

589
00:28:14,901 --> 00:28:17,981
Speaker 2: particularly in a tight economy. But this is all little treats.

590
00:28:18,022 --> 00:28:22,902
Speaker 2: But if you are susceptible to that kind of instant gratification,

591
00:28:23,222 --> 00:28:27,542
Speaker 2: that kind of delaying the inevitable, then this can be

592
00:28:27,581 --> 00:28:28,302
Speaker 2: really dangerous.

593
00:28:28,341 --> 00:28:29,742
Speaker 3: And that's the thing is that a lot of these

594
00:28:29,901 --> 00:28:31,942
Speaker 3: I guess you'd call them products, but they have been

595
00:28:32,462 --> 00:28:35,341
Speaker 3: marketed as the anti credit card because they're going, well,

596
00:28:35,462 --> 00:28:37,542
Speaker 3: if you did the credit card, then you'd be paying interest,

597
00:28:37,542 --> 00:28:39,102
Speaker 3: and with us, you're not. You just have to do

598
00:28:39,142 --> 00:28:42,542
Speaker 3: your FOURGN installments or whatever. If you're putting a lot

599
00:28:42,622 --> 00:28:45,422
Speaker 3: of products on this then I don't think a lot

600
00:28:45,462 --> 00:28:49,142
Speaker 3: of us, if we're honest, have a totally transparent relationship

601
00:28:49,182 --> 00:28:52,182
Speaker 3: with how much we're spending, because when you spend four

602
00:28:52,222 --> 00:28:54,102
Speaker 3: hundred dollars, it is the same as spending four dollars.

603
00:28:54,142 --> 00:28:55,902
Speaker 3: It's just tap tap tap tap tap tap tap, like

604
00:28:56,222 --> 00:28:59,782
Speaker 3: all the time. And I can avoid looking at my

605
00:29:00,542 --> 00:29:03,181
Speaker 3: bank account if I want, like I don't have to

606
00:29:03,622 --> 00:29:05,822
Speaker 3: even go to an ATM and discover that I've got nothing.

607
00:29:05,862 --> 00:29:08,142
Speaker 3: I used to have to look at how much was left,

608
00:29:08,422 --> 00:29:10,462
Speaker 3: and now you can just kind of put your hands

609
00:29:10,462 --> 00:29:12,742
Speaker 3: over your eyes and ignore it, which is a very

610
00:29:12,822 --> 00:29:16,741
Speaker 3: dangerous way to live. And it also normalizes living a

611
00:29:16,822 --> 00:29:19,702
Speaker 3: life of debt, basically putting your whole life in debt.

612
00:29:19,942 --> 00:29:21,862
Speaker 4: And you can also tell that we're in a real

613
00:29:21,942 --> 00:29:26,181
Speaker 4: moment of people embracing this because these companies tried to

614
00:29:26,222 --> 00:29:29,862
Speaker 4: market themselves as different from credit cards, and now credit

615
00:29:29,862 --> 00:29:32,862
Speaker 4: cards and traditional banks are getting in on the buy now,

616
00:29:32,942 --> 00:29:35,941
Speaker 4: pay later scheme because they've recognized that you can collect

617
00:29:35,982 --> 00:29:39,022
Speaker 4: a lot of interest from people when they don't fully

618
00:29:39,102 --> 00:29:41,542
Speaker 4: understand where and when the money is getting taken out

619
00:29:41,582 --> 00:29:44,262
Speaker 4: of their bank account. But I wanted to talk about

620
00:29:44,342 --> 00:29:47,142
Speaker 4: why this is happening in this moment, because Holly, I

621
00:29:47,182 --> 00:29:49,501
Speaker 4: couldn't agree with you more. That feeling of when you

622
00:29:49,582 --> 00:29:51,781
Speaker 4: first are spending on a credit card and doing it

623
00:29:51,822 --> 00:29:54,702
Speaker 4: recklessly as a young person, and buying jeans and buying

624
00:29:54,942 --> 00:29:57,342
Speaker 4: I remember I bought a new Mew handbag back in

625
00:29:57,342 --> 00:29:59,502
Speaker 4: the day that I definitely could not have afforded, which

626
00:29:59,542 --> 00:30:01,382
Speaker 4: I put on a credit card, which then got me

627
00:30:01,422 --> 00:30:03,902
Speaker 4: into trouble later. But I think what's new about this

628
00:30:04,062 --> 00:30:07,542
Speaker 4: is a couple of deeper cultural vibes that.

629
00:30:07,422 --> 00:30:08,421
Speaker 1: Are kind of fueling it.

630
00:30:08,542 --> 00:30:10,422
Speaker 4: So we all got into the but of buying things

631
00:30:10,422 --> 00:30:13,142
Speaker 4: to lift our mood in the pandemic, and now that's

632
00:30:13,182 --> 00:30:16,102
Speaker 4: continued as things like groceries get more and more out

633
00:30:16,142 --> 00:30:16,582
Speaker 4: of reach.

634
00:30:16,902 --> 00:30:18,981
Speaker 1: We all need fun money. We all feel like we

635
00:30:19,062 --> 00:30:20,062
Speaker 1: deserve fun money.

636
00:30:20,422 --> 00:30:23,302
Speaker 4: And then there's that notion of financial manifestation that's also

637
00:30:23,342 --> 00:30:26,822
Speaker 4: really big on TikTok, the abundance mentality. You remember Ronda

638
00:30:26,862 --> 00:30:28,942
Speaker 4: Burns The Secret, that book that came out in two

639
00:30:28,942 --> 00:30:31,501
Speaker 4: thousand and four, which led to people thinking that if

640
00:30:31,542 --> 00:30:33,941
Speaker 4: you lived beyond your means and if you put that

641
00:30:34,062 --> 00:30:37,222
Speaker 4: out into the universe enough, that would lead to financial success.

642
00:30:37,382 --> 00:30:39,542
Speaker 4: And I think we're seeing that play out now in

643
00:30:39,582 --> 00:30:41,181
Speaker 4: the way people are spending money.

644
00:30:41,462 --> 00:30:44,542
Speaker 3: I write about this in my most recent book in

645
00:30:44,622 --> 00:30:48,782
Speaker 3: Terms of Class, Right, there's almost this rising class consciousness

646
00:30:48,822 --> 00:30:51,862
Speaker 3: a lot of our upbringings, I think, particularly in Australia,

647
00:30:51,902 --> 00:30:54,941
Speaker 3: from suburbs to schools, you are surrounded by people who

648
00:30:54,942 --> 00:30:58,062
Speaker 3: are in your class and who probably have a similar

649
00:30:58,102 --> 00:31:02,382
Speaker 3: amount of money to you, and it feels quite comforting

650
00:31:02,862 --> 00:31:06,102
Speaker 3: because at my school no one had designer items and

651
00:31:06,142 --> 00:31:06,862
Speaker 3: no one went.

652
00:31:06,742 --> 00:31:09,261
Speaker 1: To Aspen a drunk elephant hadn't even been invved.

653
00:31:09,862 --> 00:31:12,262
Speaker 3: So I was quite comfortable and just kind of went

654
00:31:12,302 --> 00:31:16,062
Speaker 3: all right, this is how my people and my sphere,

655
00:31:16,182 --> 00:31:17,742
Speaker 3: my milu whatever lives.

656
00:31:17,822 --> 00:31:20,382
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've big indulgences, were like maybe this thing I've.

657
00:31:20,222 --> 00:31:23,182
Speaker 4: Scrub Yeah, maybe a bit of fudge hair color exactly,

658
00:31:23,222 --> 00:31:24,622
Speaker 4: which you could buy at the supermarket.

659
00:31:24,661 --> 00:31:27,462
Speaker 3: Yes, whatever was at Wilworth. And then you go out

660
00:31:27,502 --> 00:31:30,342
Speaker 3: into the world and this was I guess pre social media,

661
00:31:30,822 --> 00:31:32,822
Speaker 3: and I went, oh, my goodness.

662
00:31:32,422 --> 00:31:33,382
Speaker 1: This is wow.

663
00:31:34,102 --> 00:31:36,382
Speaker 3: As you were saying, it's like those walls have kind

664
00:31:36,462 --> 00:31:39,622
Speaker 3: of come down and we've got this insight almost into

665
00:31:39,661 --> 00:31:43,062
Speaker 3: other people's homes constantly, and sometimes I worry that that's

666
00:31:43,062 --> 00:31:45,182
Speaker 3: a bad thing. It's the nune of my business.

667
00:31:45,102 --> 00:31:46,981
Speaker 2: It is, And well it's not a bad thing. I

668
00:31:46,982 --> 00:31:49,181
Speaker 2: think it's in many ways, it's probably an eye opening,

669
00:31:49,382 --> 00:31:51,181
Speaker 2: motivating thing. And when I say that, I don't mean

670
00:31:51,222 --> 00:31:53,502
Speaker 2: to work crowd or I mean to understand how the

671
00:31:53,542 --> 00:31:57,942
Speaker 2: world works. Yeah, but to the manifesting point is really interesting.

672
00:31:58,102 --> 00:32:00,142
Speaker 2: You know, we talked a while ago about that really

673
00:32:00,222 --> 00:32:03,582
Speaker 2: rich influencer, Becka Bloom. Yeah, and there's a whole rich

674
00:32:03,702 --> 00:32:07,062
Speaker 2: talk thing, right, and I had never really stepped into

675
00:32:07,062 --> 00:32:09,102
Speaker 2: that until we had that conversation and I needed to

676
00:32:09,102 --> 00:32:11,542
Speaker 2: go and find becker Bloom was and now I watch

677
00:32:11,542 --> 00:32:14,941
Speaker 2: her quite often. But what we were talking about on

678
00:32:14,982 --> 00:32:17,342
Speaker 2: that is that there wasn't a lot of vitriol directed

679
00:32:17,422 --> 00:32:20,102
Speaker 2: towards her. There's actually quite a lot of goodwill because

680
00:32:20,102 --> 00:32:22,941
Speaker 2: there's something almost soothing about the way that she does that.

681
00:32:23,502 --> 00:32:26,742
Speaker 2: But I also think that it's true that people feel

682
00:32:26,782 --> 00:32:29,941
Speaker 2: like if I can present a tiny bit of that,

683
00:32:29,942 --> 00:32:32,981
Speaker 2: that lifestyle might come my way. We also spoke recently,

684
00:32:33,022 --> 00:32:37,022
Speaker 2: remember about how dressing for work is back, like dress

685
00:32:37,062 --> 00:32:38,862
Speaker 2: for the job you want is back, and all those

686
00:32:38,942 --> 00:32:42,622
Speaker 2: kind of things, And there's sort of a confidence that

687
00:32:42,661 --> 00:32:45,741
Speaker 2: we're encouraging about you know, you need to look a

688
00:32:45,742 --> 00:32:48,742
Speaker 2: certain way, act a certain way, act rich to get rich,

689
00:32:48,782 --> 00:32:51,461
Speaker 2: all of those kind of things that I think is

690
00:32:51,622 --> 00:32:54,221
Speaker 2: very appealing because it all gives you just all this

691
00:32:54,382 --> 00:32:57,662
Speaker 2: list of excuses for if you are as I certainly

692
00:32:57,702 --> 00:33:01,661
Speaker 2: am and was more so susceptible to recklessness when it

693
00:33:01,702 --> 00:33:04,342
Speaker 2: comes to money. And it's really important to make the

694
00:33:04,342 --> 00:33:07,542
Speaker 2: distinction here that in difficult economic times, which were certainly

695
00:33:07,542 --> 00:33:10,022
Speaker 2: in now, some people are using by now later to

696
00:33:10,022 --> 00:33:12,382
Speaker 2: buy their basics. That's a different ballgame that says a

697
00:33:12,382 --> 00:33:16,302
Speaker 2: lot about the economy. What we're discussing really is not

698
00:33:16,422 --> 00:33:19,661
Speaker 2: about that, but more, as you say, the curtain dropping

699
00:33:19,702 --> 00:33:22,302
Speaker 2: on this other life, this luxurious life that we all

700
00:33:22,302 --> 00:33:24,421
Speaker 2: feel we should have a part of, as you've already

701
00:33:24,462 --> 00:33:28,181
Speaker 2: alluded to, Amelia, like skin care and beauty things that

702
00:33:28,702 --> 00:33:31,102
Speaker 2: again used to beat the idea. When I was younger,

703
00:33:31,142 --> 00:33:33,822
Speaker 2: there used to be these mythical brands, you know, like

704
00:33:33,942 --> 00:33:37,701
Speaker 2: Lemur or whatever, that were for very rich ladies in

705
00:33:37,902 --> 00:33:40,942
Speaker 2: very fancy spas, and you were never getting anywhere near

706
00:33:40,982 --> 00:33:44,622
Speaker 2: that stuff. And now, as we've talked about twelve year

707
00:33:44,661 --> 00:33:48,661
Speaker 2: olds in Sephora, you know, it's it's really interesting a

708
00:33:49,142 --> 00:33:50,221
Speaker 2: piece of a lifestyle.

709
00:33:50,342 --> 00:33:53,542
Speaker 3: Can I ask how you stopped with the credit cards?

710
00:33:53,702 --> 00:33:54,102
Speaker 1: What do you do?

711
00:33:54,262 --> 00:33:56,582
Speaker 2: I was forced into it. This is a personal story,

712
00:33:56,622 --> 00:34:00,062
Speaker 2: but it's true that I was very reckless with money.

713
00:34:00,622 --> 00:34:02,542
Speaker 2: I don't know what like. I'm sure a therapist can

714
00:34:02,582 --> 00:34:04,862
Speaker 2: tell me why. But I was reckless with money, and

715
00:34:04,902 --> 00:34:09,982
Speaker 2: I also was very avoidant of dealing with it. When

716
00:34:10,022 --> 00:34:12,702
Speaker 2: I got together with Brent and we kind of merged

717
00:34:12,702 --> 00:34:15,181
Speaker 2: our lives, one of the most shameful moments of my

718
00:34:15,262 --> 00:34:17,661
Speaker 2: life was having to sit down and tell him how

719
00:34:17,741 --> 00:34:18,261
Speaker 2: much did I.

720
00:34:18,382 --> 00:34:20,462
Speaker 3: That seems like a really common in a lot of

721
00:34:20,462 --> 00:34:22,502
Speaker 3: these articles. I read that it was a partner where

722
00:34:22,542 --> 00:34:24,861
Speaker 3: they had to almost confess and go by the way

723
00:34:25,221 --> 00:34:26,261
Speaker 3: I mean fifty K.

724
00:34:27,261 --> 00:34:32,582
Speaker 4: And also that avoidant idea because these services automatically withdraw

725
00:34:32,741 --> 00:34:36,582
Speaker 4: the amount from your bank account, they're playing on people

726
00:34:36,661 --> 00:34:38,741
Speaker 4: who don't want to think about it. Yes, because you

727
00:34:38,822 --> 00:34:40,781
Speaker 4: don't have to think about it, they're going to take

728
00:34:40,822 --> 00:34:42,862
Speaker 4: it out whether you like it or not. What I

729
00:34:42,942 --> 00:34:45,741
Speaker 4: keep coming back to, Holly, is your genius analogy about

730
00:34:45,781 --> 00:34:48,341
Speaker 4: business class. The one way I would change it is

731
00:34:48,382 --> 00:34:50,582
Speaker 4: I actually think it's not so much that we're now

732
00:34:50,822 --> 00:34:53,982
Speaker 4: all being exposed to business class. We're all being exposed

733
00:34:54,022 --> 00:34:56,181
Speaker 4: to first class. And if you think about the way

734
00:34:56,422 --> 00:35:00,142
Speaker 4: international flights are structured, we don't walk through first now

735
00:35:00,622 --> 00:35:01,102
Speaker 4: or economy.

736
00:35:01,181 --> 00:35:03,462
Speaker 2: That's one of the appeals of first classic. The plubs

737
00:35:03,502 --> 00:35:05,102
Speaker 2: won't walk through the sack at you and go.

738
00:35:05,142 --> 00:35:08,582
Speaker 4: Oh, but now we're all walking through first class.

739
00:35:08,582 --> 00:35:10,902
Speaker 3: When I learned that could lay down on a plane,

740
00:35:11,102 --> 00:35:14,742
Speaker 3: I thought, when I've been sitting in economy after twelve hours,

741
00:35:14,822 --> 00:35:18,022
Speaker 3: if you told me I could pay even five hundred

742
00:35:18,062 --> 00:35:20,741
Speaker 3: bucks a day to get that bed, I'd pay it.

743
00:35:20,781 --> 00:35:26,421
Speaker 2: No half. Megan Duchess went to Paris for a lovely weekend.

744
00:35:27,022 --> 00:35:27,661
Speaker 1: No one needs it.

745
00:35:28,942 --> 00:35:32,421
Speaker 2: She went to Paris and had a lovely time. That's

746
00:35:32,462 --> 00:35:33,062
Speaker 2: my head line.

747
00:35:33,102 --> 00:35:36,942
Speaker 3: Do you think that she flew first mate, she flew private?

748
00:35:37,062 --> 00:35:38,142
Speaker 3: Come on, I care.

749
00:35:38,221 --> 00:35:40,582
Speaker 2: That's the whole other thing. We're never getting on those planes.

750
00:35:40,622 --> 00:35:43,022
Speaker 4: What I'm worried about is that she wore this all

751
00:35:43,062 --> 00:35:46,542
Speaker 4: white outfit with the sort of scarf attached. Yes, And

752
00:35:46,582 --> 00:35:48,901
Speaker 4: I just kept thinking about being in Paris with all

753
00:35:48,902 --> 00:35:51,062
Speaker 4: the red wine in her all white house.

754
00:35:52,022 --> 00:35:53,062
Speaker 1: Did you have a tied pin.

755
00:35:56,102 --> 00:35:59,142
Speaker 2: I'm only telling you about this because it signaled a

756
00:35:59,181 --> 00:36:01,221
Speaker 2: bit of a new era. I think in terms of

757
00:36:01,302 --> 00:36:04,142
Speaker 2: Meg's world, because we've been Mia always says that this.

758
00:36:04,302 --> 00:36:06,462
Speaker 2: She always says she wants to be a celebrity and

759
00:36:06,462 --> 00:36:08,102
Speaker 2: just let the woman be a celebrity, but she kind

760
00:36:08,102 --> 00:36:10,382
Speaker 2: of hasn't been able to because she's royal adjacent. So

761
00:36:10,902 --> 00:36:13,342
Speaker 2: this was the first time I can remember for ages

762
00:36:13,862 --> 00:36:15,821
Speaker 2: where she just went and did a celebrity thing because

763
00:36:15,822 --> 00:36:18,062
Speaker 2: she got invited by the designer. She kinds of knows him.

764
00:36:18,142 --> 00:36:20,462
Speaker 2: It was his first show for Balanciaga. I don't really

765
00:36:20,502 --> 00:36:22,661
Speaker 2: understand what any of that means. She's worked with him

766
00:36:22,661 --> 00:36:25,861
Speaker 2: a long time. He swept Valentino whatever, one of my

767
00:36:25,902 --> 00:36:30,781
Speaker 2: business and he invited her to come. We call it

768
00:36:30,862 --> 00:36:33,422
Speaker 2: a jolly, you know, a jolly a for mill almost

769
00:36:33,582 --> 00:36:36,462
Speaker 2: like a book. It's a book. It's like you come, Megs,

770
00:36:36,741 --> 00:36:37,502
Speaker 2: sit front row.

771
00:36:37,661 --> 00:36:39,142
Speaker 3: So her name was just on the door.

772
00:36:39,221 --> 00:36:41,661
Speaker 2: Yeah, she wasn't like walking the catwalk rightd of things.

773
00:36:41,661 --> 00:36:43,102
Speaker 2: She was just going to be there and be one

774
00:36:43,102 --> 00:36:45,102
Speaker 2: of the famous people there. All the famous people do it,

775
00:36:45,382 --> 00:36:46,821
Speaker 2: And this is the first time I've seen her just

776
00:36:46,862 --> 00:36:48,862
Speaker 2: go and have a little bit of fun. She posted

777
00:36:48,902 --> 00:36:53,661
Speaker 2: an excellently basic video about here's my breakfast in the hotel.

778
00:36:53,781 --> 00:36:55,862
Speaker 2: Here's my view out the window. She was definitely staying

779
00:36:55,862 --> 00:36:58,341
Speaker 2: in that really fancy one that Taylor Swift stays in.

780
00:36:58,701 --> 00:37:00,702
Speaker 2: And here's what I wore, and here and my shoes,

781
00:37:00,701 --> 00:37:02,781
Speaker 2: and here's my hair. And it was lovely. But that's

782
00:37:02,822 --> 00:37:04,341
Speaker 2: not what everybody said, was it, Jesse.

783
00:37:04,661 --> 00:37:06,861
Speaker 3: There are a few headlines, Oh my god, o that woman,

784
00:37:06,942 --> 00:37:10,502
Speaker 3: the poor woman. So she allegedly laughs at a model

785
00:37:10,741 --> 00:37:11,862
Speaker 3: falling over on the catwalk.

786
00:37:12,302 --> 00:37:14,221
Speaker 2: Would she's not me with the Magpie boy.

787
00:37:14,302 --> 00:37:16,542
Speaker 3: No, well you would have. That's why you're not invited.

788
00:37:16,982 --> 00:37:19,582
Speaker 3: But there's a picture of her smirking with no context,

789
00:37:19,902 --> 00:37:22,221
Speaker 3: and someone has found a model falling over and they're like,

790
00:37:22,261 --> 00:37:26,742
Speaker 3: there we go, Megan markleks pointing and laughing. She also

791
00:37:27,142 --> 00:37:29,542
Speaker 3: went to the Balenciaga show, which is a big no

792
00:37:29,542 --> 00:37:32,421
Speaker 3: no because she got invited to get well three years

793
00:37:32,462 --> 00:37:37,662
Speaker 3: ago Balenciaga had two controversial campaigns, so now apparently people

794
00:37:37,661 --> 00:37:39,181
Speaker 3: are like, I thought you cared about.

795
00:37:39,062 --> 00:37:42,982
Speaker 2: Children, even though it's now a completely different person. Yes, sure, yeah, terrible,

796
00:37:43,022 --> 00:37:43,861
Speaker 2: what a terrible human.

797
00:37:43,982 --> 00:37:46,261
Speaker 3: There is more. There is a video of her in

798
00:37:46,302 --> 00:37:49,142
Speaker 3: a limo with her feet on the seat, which was

799
00:37:49,142 --> 00:37:51,222
Speaker 3: seen as disrespectful, but wait the limo.

800
00:37:51,542 --> 00:37:55,022
Speaker 2: Yes, disrespectful celebrities have done more disrespectful things than that

801
00:37:55,062 --> 00:37:55,582
Speaker 2: in a limo.

802
00:37:55,741 --> 00:37:59,862
Speaker 3: Yeah, this limo was only streets away from where lady

803
00:37:59,902 --> 00:38:04,502
Speaker 3: died died, And how dare you have your feet up

804
00:38:05,382 --> 00:38:07,181
Speaker 3: in a way that suggests you up?

805
00:38:07,302 --> 00:38:10,062
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I think it was weird. I think it

806
00:38:10,102 --> 00:38:10,542
Speaker 1: was weird.

807
00:38:10,822 --> 00:38:10,982
Speaker 4: All.

808
00:38:11,181 --> 00:38:12,821
Speaker 2: Paris is only streets away from.

809
00:38:12,781 --> 00:38:15,582
Speaker 4: That time, and her husband's not the feed up. But

810
00:38:15,741 --> 00:38:18,062
Speaker 4: when I saw that video, my first thought was, you

811
00:38:18,142 --> 00:38:20,741
Speaker 4: took a video of you in the back of a

812
00:38:20,862 --> 00:38:23,221
Speaker 4: car speeding through the streets of Paris.

813
00:38:23,502 --> 00:38:26,902
Speaker 3: No, I just think that at all.

814
00:38:27,181 --> 00:38:30,261
Speaker 2: Okay, well, a lot of the car I think speeding

815
00:38:30,342 --> 00:38:31,382
Speaker 2: is you know, an add on?

816
00:38:31,661 --> 00:38:35,181
Speaker 3: Okay. Apparently she also walked in a way that reminded

817
00:38:35,181 --> 00:38:37,902
Speaker 3: people of Zooland and the comments said.

818
00:38:38,181 --> 00:38:40,462
Speaker 1: I don't know how zoo Lander woked.

819
00:38:40,261 --> 00:38:42,821
Speaker 3: Like an exaggerated model, and they were like, Megan, you're

820
00:38:42,862 --> 00:38:45,862
Speaker 3: not a model, You're just a guest. Then the body

821
00:38:45,902 --> 00:38:48,341
Speaker 3: language experts came because that's what they had to do.

822
00:38:48,342 --> 00:38:49,342
Speaker 3: They ran out of headline.

823
00:38:49,542 --> 00:38:52,182
Speaker 4: I am so excited to become a body language expert

824
00:38:52,221 --> 00:38:52,941
Speaker 4: later in my life.

825
00:38:52,982 --> 00:38:55,142
Speaker 3: You would be so good at it because this body

826
00:38:55,221 --> 00:38:56,062
Speaker 3: language experts.

827
00:38:56,302 --> 00:38:58,502
Speaker 1: It's good for people who like making mountains out of

828
00:38:58,542 --> 00:38:59,142
Speaker 1: molehills and.

829
00:38:59,221 --> 00:39:04,102
Speaker 3: Just looking at photos of fa exactly. So apparently she

830
00:39:04,302 --> 00:39:09,301
Speaker 3: looked anxious and uncomfortable allegedly, and you may did anyone

831
00:39:09,342 --> 00:39:12,341
Speaker 3: else the video of the awkward kiss with her friend.

832
00:39:12,261 --> 00:39:14,342
Speaker 1: Oh did you see that? The kiss with Anna Windjaw?

833
00:39:14,622 --> 00:39:15,942
Speaker 1: They looked like they were chummy.

834
00:39:16,062 --> 00:39:17,901
Speaker 3: This was like they went in both ways and then

835
00:39:17,902 --> 00:39:19,862
Speaker 3: maybe they accidentally confusing.

836
00:39:20,181 --> 00:39:22,902
Speaker 2: Yeah, they hadn't read the etiquette guide once on the left.

837
00:39:23,022 --> 00:39:26,941
Speaker 3: That's it exactly, she did that wrong. And also apparently

838
00:39:27,342 --> 00:39:30,902
Speaker 3: she was a bit flirty because she was walking towards

839
00:39:30,902 --> 00:39:32,622
Speaker 3: a car and then she turned around in a way

840
00:39:32,661 --> 00:39:33,462
Speaker 3: that felt dramatic.

841
00:39:33,701 --> 00:39:35,502
Speaker 1: I have to say, I think that this was a

842
00:39:35,542 --> 00:39:39,502
Speaker 1: triumph for her. It really was. Notwithstanding at tabloid headlines.

843
00:39:39,542 --> 00:39:41,582
Speaker 4: I thought she looked fabulous, But also what was really

844
00:39:41,622 --> 00:39:44,181
Speaker 4: interesting was her star power when you compared it to

845
00:39:44,422 --> 00:39:46,622
Speaker 4: As Holly mentioned, there were lots of other celebrities there,

846
00:39:46,661 --> 00:39:49,182
Speaker 4: including Nicole Kidman. In one of her very first public

847
00:39:49,181 --> 00:39:52,021
Speaker 4: appearances since the announcement of her separation from Keith Urban.

848
00:39:52,462 --> 00:39:55,062
Speaker 4: She went to Paris for the Chanelle Show with her daughters.

849
00:39:55,181 --> 00:39:58,462
Speaker 4: And what I thought was interesting is that Megan fashion

850
00:39:58,502 --> 00:40:02,022
Speaker 4: commentator said she was indisputably the biggest star at Paris

851
00:40:02,022 --> 00:40:03,181
Speaker 4: Fashion Week and.

852
00:40:03,181 --> 00:40:06,062
Speaker 3: She wasn't there with Harry. She was there, yes, so she's.

853
00:40:05,942 --> 00:40:07,142
Speaker 1: Ready for her celebrity era.

854
00:40:07,221 --> 00:40:09,422
Speaker 2: She is right. I think she's ready for her celebrity era.

855
00:40:09,741 --> 00:40:13,062
Speaker 2: And I love how many different stories one can pull

856
00:40:13,302 --> 00:40:15,701
Speaker 2: out of a very short video of a woman going,

857
00:40:15,741 --> 00:40:19,821
Speaker 2: look at my breakfast in Paris? Anyway, that's awesome in

858
00:40:19,902 --> 00:40:24,062
Speaker 2: a moment. More scorelous gossip. I have an unpopular opinion

859
00:40:24,701 --> 00:40:28,822
Speaker 2: there are some exes who should not be friends, also

860
00:40:28,942 --> 00:40:31,781
Speaker 2: known as why Ben Affleck and j Loo shouldn't be

861
00:40:31,862 --> 00:40:33,182
Speaker 2: on that red carpet together?

862
00:40:33,261 --> 00:40:37,902
Speaker 3: This week one unlimited out Loud Access. We drop episodes

863
00:40:37,982 --> 00:40:41,941
Speaker 3: every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mum and Maya subscribers.

864
00:40:42,422 --> 00:40:44,502
Speaker 3: Follow the link in the show notes to get us

865
00:40:44,502 --> 00:40:47,262
Speaker 3: in your ears five days a week, and a huge

866
00:40:47,302 --> 00:40:49,341
Speaker 3: thank you to all our current subscribers.

867
00:40:54,302 --> 00:40:59,782
Speaker 2: Friends, schorelous time, but based on facts right, As I said,

868
00:40:59,902 --> 00:41:01,501
Speaker 2: I don't know if we're all ready to go through

869
00:41:01,502 --> 00:41:04,901
Speaker 2: this again. So let's hold hands. But someone needs to

870
00:41:04,942 --> 00:41:10,261
Speaker 2: call j Loo's zodiacal council. Remember do you remember in

871
00:41:10,982 --> 00:41:16,182
Speaker 2: Jayla's amazing self created movie This Is Me Now, Yes,

872
00:41:16,462 --> 00:41:19,861
Speaker 2: she had a celebrity panel representing the zodiac giving her

873
00:41:19,942 --> 00:41:22,862
Speaker 2: love life advice. Trevor Nowah there, Yes, or a dream

874
00:41:24,102 --> 00:41:26,741
Speaker 2: it seems like a fever dream post. Malone was there,

875
00:41:26,862 --> 00:41:30,502
Speaker 2: Jane Fonda was there. Is such a strange group and

876
00:41:30,542 --> 00:41:33,981
Speaker 2: they were all saying things like no, don't and yes,

877
00:41:34,102 --> 00:41:37,422
Speaker 2: do whatever and basically directing Jayla's life. Well, they've obviously

878
00:41:37,462 --> 00:41:40,702
Speaker 2: taken a few days off because she and Ben Affleck

879
00:41:40,701 --> 00:41:42,781
Speaker 2: were on the red carpet together this week, which has

880
00:41:42,822 --> 00:41:45,582
Speaker 2: started a whole lot of rumors. Again, now a little

881
00:41:45,622 --> 00:41:48,782
Speaker 2: bit of factual context. She was on the red carpet

882
00:41:48,781 --> 00:41:51,422
Speaker 2: for the New York premiere of a new musical movie

883
00:41:51,462 --> 00:41:53,622
Speaker 2: called Kiss of the Spider Woman, which is based on

884
00:41:53,622 --> 00:41:57,901
Speaker 2: a famous stage musical. It was obviously a project that

885
00:41:58,022 --> 00:42:01,702
Speaker 2: got the green light during her and Ben's marriage, because

886
00:42:01,862 --> 00:42:04,982
Speaker 2: Ben and of course Matt Damon because he's always around,

887
00:42:05,741 --> 00:42:07,502
Speaker 2: are producers on this movie.

888
00:42:07,781 --> 00:42:08,902
Speaker 3: Was he at the press conference?

889
00:42:09,781 --> 00:42:12,102
Speaker 2: See him? See any Matt Damon? I think he maybe

890
00:42:12,142 --> 00:42:14,741
Speaker 2: had the sense to just send flowers, which is what

891
00:42:15,142 --> 00:42:18,701
Speaker 2: Ben Afflecks should have done, right, so this is a

892
00:42:18,701 --> 00:42:21,822
Speaker 2: project that they clearly started together when they were married.

893
00:42:21,902 --> 00:42:25,062
Speaker 2: Just a quick refresher, they were married from twenty twenty

894
00:42:25,102 --> 00:42:27,622
Speaker 2: two to twenty twenty four, so that window there, and

895
00:42:27,822 --> 00:42:31,462
Speaker 2: also of course engaged from two thousand and two to

896
00:42:31,502 --> 00:42:36,702
Speaker 2: two thousand and four. Symmetry is amazing something about manifesting. Anyway,

897
00:42:36,781 --> 00:42:38,422
Speaker 2: So she's got a new project, she's got the New

898
00:42:38,462 --> 00:42:41,022
Speaker 2: York City premier. Ben turns up. There are lots of

899
00:42:41,022 --> 00:42:44,421
Speaker 2: pictures of them together. She looks, she looks fabulous, he's

900
00:42:44,502 --> 00:42:47,341
Speaker 2: kissy kissing her, and there's lots of people going, oh

901
00:42:47,342 --> 00:42:49,502
Speaker 2: my god, are they getting back together. I just want

902
00:42:49,542 --> 00:42:51,701
Speaker 2: to posit the theory and explore this theory with you.

903
00:42:52,502 --> 00:42:57,221
Speaker 2: There are some exes whose chemistry prohibits them from ever

904
00:42:57,302 --> 00:42:59,942
Speaker 2: being friends. Like, yes, it was a nice thing to

905
00:43:00,022 --> 00:43:03,181
Speaker 2: do in theory that Ben Affleck turned up to direct

906
00:43:03,221 --> 00:43:06,542
Speaker 2: some attention to Jalo's new project that he has invested

907
00:43:06,542 --> 00:43:10,062
Speaker 2: interest in. But you can just tell to the body

908
00:43:10,142 --> 00:43:13,741
Speaker 2: language experts, you can just tell no.

909
00:43:13,982 --> 00:43:16,502
Speaker 4: And do you think that's a really interesting theory because

910
00:43:16,542 --> 00:43:19,942
Speaker 4: clearly some celebrities can do it, Like I believe that

911
00:43:19,982 --> 00:43:22,861
Speaker 4: if Chris Martin and Gwenne's Paltrow showed up for each

912
00:43:22,902 --> 00:43:25,941
Speaker 4: other's big premies. That wouldn't be a problem, that would

913
00:43:25,942 --> 00:43:28,221
Speaker 4: be fine. We'd think that was cozy and supportive.

914
00:43:28,422 --> 00:43:28,942
Speaker 2: Absolutely.

915
00:43:29,022 --> 00:43:31,661
Speaker 4: So here's one theory to posit about this. Is it

916
00:43:31,902 --> 00:43:35,022
Speaker 4: because Ben and Jalo don't have children?

917
00:43:35,142 --> 00:43:36,422
Speaker 1: Is that somehow in the mix?

918
00:43:36,582 --> 00:43:36,741
Speaker 3: Well?

919
00:43:36,822 --> 00:43:40,502
Speaker 2: I think my theory is if your relationship breaks up,

920
00:43:40,781 --> 00:43:44,502
Speaker 2: as many do, because you are more like flatmates in

921
00:43:44,502 --> 00:43:48,661
Speaker 2: inverted commers, or more like siblings by now in inverted commerce, like,

922
00:43:49,102 --> 00:43:52,542
Speaker 2: as long as there is not high betrayal or toxic

923
00:43:52,582 --> 00:43:58,142
Speaker 2: behavior involved in your split, you can probably storia celebrate

924
00:43:58,221 --> 00:43:59,461
Speaker 2: somebody else's wood.

925
00:43:59,502 --> 00:44:03,142
Speaker 4: Jen and Ben in fact, gender and Ben they can

926
00:44:03,221 --> 00:44:03,542
Speaker 4: do it.

927
00:44:03,582 --> 00:44:04,741
Speaker 1: They've got the flat.

928
00:44:04,582 --> 00:44:07,502
Speaker 2: Made energy, and you can and probably should. Really again

929
00:44:07,622 --> 00:44:10,781
Speaker 2: with those caveats about you know, abuse, try and be

930
00:44:10,822 --> 00:44:12,741
Speaker 2: civil and nice when you've got the kids involved, and

931
00:44:12,781 --> 00:44:16,622
Speaker 2: these two do not. But they blended family are quite close,

932
00:44:16,701 --> 00:44:19,142
Speaker 2: so her kids and his kids are quite tight. But

933
00:44:19,302 --> 00:44:21,502
Speaker 2: I just think, and I know I'm projecting, and I

934
00:44:21,542 --> 00:44:25,181
Speaker 2: know this is scoreless. I just get the vibe from

935
00:44:25,261 --> 00:44:29,862
Speaker 2: them every time they're in a space. It's like sparks.

936
00:44:29,902 --> 00:44:31,861
Speaker 2: You just get that vibe and you can't do.

937
00:44:31,902 --> 00:44:34,901
Speaker 3: That think they had sex in the toilet a car

938
00:44:35,181 --> 00:44:35,901
Speaker 3: or at time later?

939
00:44:36,661 --> 00:44:40,301
Speaker 4: You know what it actually might be Ben himself, because

940
00:44:41,181 --> 00:44:44,901
Speaker 4: I was thinking about Gwyneth's ex'es and I don't think

941
00:44:45,022 --> 00:44:49,542
Speaker 4: Gwinn and Ben have roommate flatmate energy. I think this

942
00:44:49,781 --> 00:44:52,622
Speaker 4: and remember how she said he was technically excellent in bed.

943
00:44:53,062 --> 00:44:56,062
Speaker 4: I wonder if it's just Ben who can't really?

944
00:44:56,261 --> 00:44:59,222
Speaker 2: I wonder do you not have a platonic vibe?

945
00:44:59,622 --> 00:45:02,062
Speaker 3: Central to it as well is the amount of time

946
00:45:02,102 --> 00:45:02,542
Speaker 3: you're with them?

947
00:45:02,622 --> 00:45:05,421
Speaker 4: Oh, I first thought you were saying sensual, and I

948
00:45:05,462 --> 00:45:07,701
Speaker 4: was really excited for you sut a sentence of the

949
00:45:07,701 --> 00:45:08,422
Speaker 4: word sensual.

950
00:45:09,022 --> 00:45:12,861
Speaker 3: I wonder if you've been together for twenty years, right

951
00:45:13,261 --> 00:45:16,222
Speaker 3: then it's like, clearly you worked through a bunch of stuff,

952
00:45:17,062 --> 00:45:21,261
Speaker 3: Like the sexual tension probably did evaporate a little bit

953
00:45:21,542 --> 00:45:24,102
Speaker 3: because they've been on and off, on and off, and

954
00:45:24,342 --> 00:45:26,661
Speaker 3: for those relatively short periods of time.

955
00:45:26,741 --> 00:45:29,582
Speaker 4: They can only stand each other for twenty four months exactly,

956
00:45:29,661 --> 00:45:31,502
Speaker 4: just get out take it, dunkin Donuts.

957
00:45:31,622 --> 00:45:34,421
Speaker 2: You But I think the sex is obviously so good. Yeah,

958
00:45:34,422 --> 00:45:36,781
Speaker 2: it blocks some kind of common sense.

959
00:45:36,982 --> 00:45:38,741
Speaker 3: Yes, and we've been there.

960
00:45:38,902 --> 00:45:41,022
Speaker 2: They have to keep marrying each other just like over

961
00:45:41,062 --> 00:45:44,701
Speaker 2: an hour. Again, if the sex with your ex is

962
00:45:44,701 --> 00:45:46,941
Speaker 2: so good that you feel like you have to marry them,

963
00:45:47,102 --> 00:45:50,741
Speaker 2: every dame, don't pretend to be friends. Don't just send

964
00:45:50,741 --> 00:45:52,341
Speaker 2: good luck because Jla.

965
00:45:52,102 --> 00:45:54,262
Speaker 1: And Mark Anthony. I think they're fine.

966
00:45:54,582 --> 00:45:55,142
Speaker 3: They're fine.

967
00:45:55,221 --> 00:45:56,102
Speaker 1: I think they're fine.

968
00:45:56,142 --> 00:45:57,222
Speaker 3: Do they have the twins?

969
00:45:57,701 --> 00:45:58,062
Speaker 1: They do?

970
00:45:58,102 --> 00:46:00,221
Speaker 3: They do have the twins? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've been

971
00:46:00,261 --> 00:46:02,422
Speaker 3: looking up pictures of Jael pregnant with twins.

972
00:46:02,822 --> 00:46:05,701
Speaker 2: Oh oh, what are the celebrities?

973
00:46:05,781 --> 00:46:09,022
Speaker 3: Julie Roberts and of course my friend Beyonce, of.

974
00:46:09,062 --> 00:46:11,422
Speaker 2: Course, And how's the comparison going?

975
00:46:13,422 --> 00:46:16,462
Speaker 3: Think about Jlo and Beyonce and a Julie Roberts is

976
00:46:16,462 --> 00:46:18,622
Speaker 3: how great they looked? And so I just look at them.

977
00:46:18,661 --> 00:46:20,341
Speaker 3: And then I look at the picture of j Loo

978
00:46:20,462 --> 00:46:22,741
Speaker 3: at fifty and I go, I can look at that.

979
00:46:22,862 --> 00:46:26,342
Speaker 4: Have any of them said anything about twins and raising twins?

980
00:46:26,862 --> 00:46:28,861
Speaker 3: Well, Jlo was on the front page of a lot

981
00:46:28,862 --> 00:46:32,582
Speaker 3: of magazines. She looked fabulous, she had eyeshadow on, and

982
00:46:32,622 --> 00:46:34,582
Speaker 3: the twins looked happy. So I'm like, I think the

983
00:46:34,622 --> 00:46:38,942
Speaker 3: other side is glamorous and easy.

984
00:46:37,942 --> 00:46:40,502
Speaker 1: Roomy, and sir, we don't hear a lot about them.

985
00:46:40,822 --> 00:46:44,302
Speaker 3: No, they're seventeen. Now, oh wow, oh god, yes, fraternal.

986
00:46:44,622 --> 00:46:47,341
Speaker 2: I don't want to offend you in any way. But

987
00:46:47,422 --> 00:46:50,542
Speaker 2: if you do not look like Jlo before you have twins,

988
00:46:51,741 --> 00:46:55,661
Speaker 2: is having twins? Can imagine bullet, that's going to mean

989
00:46:55,661 --> 00:46:57,261
Speaker 2: you do look like after you.

990
00:46:57,382 --> 00:46:58,661
Speaker 3: I'm we're going to get stronger.

991
00:46:58,781 --> 00:47:00,501
Speaker 4: No, but you've got to use the olive oil. That's

992
00:47:00,622 --> 00:47:02,661
Speaker 4: very important. She says, he's a lot of olive oil

993
00:47:02,701 --> 00:47:03,181
Speaker 4: on your skin.

994
00:47:03,302 --> 00:47:05,022
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I might do some of her workouts. And

995
00:47:05,142 --> 00:47:06,222
Speaker 3: doesn't she have beauty products?

996
00:47:06,422 --> 00:47:07,181
Speaker 2: Just yeah, she does.

997
00:47:07,302 --> 00:47:09,702
Speaker 1: Yeah. Just to bring it back a little bit.

998
00:47:10,862 --> 00:47:13,181
Speaker 2: That's called a sidebar. Sorry about that.

999
00:47:13,342 --> 00:47:15,502
Speaker 4: Page six had a really tell end quote from a

1000
00:47:15,542 --> 00:47:19,022
Speaker 4: Lopez sauce unnamed I get it. They had to meet

1001
00:47:19,102 --> 00:47:22,742
Speaker 4: in a secret location to share this information with Page six.

1002
00:47:23,221 --> 00:47:25,142
Speaker 4: They like each other so much more when they're not

1003
00:47:25,221 --> 00:47:27,502
Speaker 4: married to each other, a Lopez source said, that's a

1004
00:47:27,542 --> 00:47:28,262
Speaker 4: huge red flag.

1005
00:47:28,542 --> 00:47:31,022
Speaker 1: They each have roles to play. This is what I

1006
00:47:31,022 --> 00:47:35,102
Speaker 1: wanted to talk about. She's the glamorous, gorgeous divas superstar

1007
00:47:35,261 --> 00:47:38,382
Speaker 1: on a pedestal. He's the roguish cad who keeps her

1008
00:47:38,422 --> 00:47:42,821
Speaker 1: at a distance to maintain sexual tension. The source added, so.

1009
00:47:42,741 --> 00:47:46,822
Speaker 4: Do you think that the reason why they can't really

1010
00:47:46,862 --> 00:47:50,062
Speaker 4: be friends is because they have gotten lot in this.

1011
00:47:50,142 --> 00:47:53,741
Speaker 1: Sexual role play. It's just unsustainable.

1012
00:47:53,942 --> 00:47:54,741
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that.

1013
00:47:54,982 --> 00:47:55,301
Speaker 4: I know.

1014
00:47:55,462 --> 00:47:58,062
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously my life is not Jaylah and Bed,

1015
00:47:58,342 --> 00:48:00,142
Speaker 2: but there are some people in your life who if

1016
00:48:00,142 --> 00:48:03,142
Speaker 2: you're ever around them, you fall back into these just

1017
00:48:03,221 --> 00:48:04,901
Speaker 2: the way that you behave with them, And so it's

1018
00:48:05,022 --> 00:48:07,701
Speaker 2: very hard not to flirt with someone with whom you

1019
00:48:07,822 --> 00:48:11,181
Speaker 2: always had flirty energy. You know, it's very hard to

1020
00:48:11,261 --> 00:48:15,022
Speaker 2: bump into them on a work related red carpet and

1021
00:48:15,462 --> 00:48:18,941
Speaker 2: be like very boundary and respectful. You know.

1022
00:48:19,181 --> 00:48:22,261
Speaker 3: I think Jaylo needs a shark tracking app. But it's

1023
00:48:22,302 --> 00:48:25,261
Speaker 3: been I think she needs to check it and she's

1024
00:48:25,261 --> 00:48:28,062
Speaker 3: got to go. Ben's in radius, Jaylo, it's not getting

1025
00:48:28,062 --> 00:48:28,661
Speaker 3: in the water today.

1026
00:48:28,701 --> 00:48:32,302
Speaker 2: If I've been popped, she needs the helmet.

1027
00:48:35,661 --> 00:48:38,941
Speaker 3: Do not dazzle them, but it would be great. Yes

1028
00:48:40,982 --> 00:48:41,701
Speaker 3: out loud.

1029
00:48:41,502 --> 00:48:45,902
Speaker 2: As gosh, I have you feeling really informed and nourished.

1030
00:48:46,422 --> 00:48:50,582
Speaker 2: Back to today's conversation because we had a lot of fun.

1031
00:48:50,622 --> 00:48:54,341
Speaker 2: I hope you did too. Anyway, a massive thank you

1032
00:48:54,422 --> 00:48:57,821
Speaker 2: to you. As always, remember you can go and watch

1033
00:48:57,902 --> 00:48:59,701
Speaker 2: us on YouTube if you want to.

1034
00:49:00,302 --> 00:49:02,701
Speaker 3: Why you'd want to well because we're not AI.

1035
00:49:03,102 --> 00:49:05,382
Speaker 2: But we'll tell you that we are definitely not AI.

1036
00:49:05,582 --> 00:49:07,941
Speaker 2: All LA fingers are here with us, so you can

1037
00:49:07,982 --> 00:49:09,981
Speaker 2: go and watch us on YouTube if you would like too.

1038
00:49:10,342 --> 00:49:12,062
Speaker 2: Massive thank you to our team. We're going to be

1039
00:49:12,102 --> 00:49:13,542
Speaker 2: back in your ears tomorrow, of.

1040
00:49:13,502 --> 00:49:17,542
Speaker 3: Course, and we also have yesterday's Taylor Swift deep Dive

1041
00:49:17,582 --> 00:49:19,341
Speaker 3: if you are more of that conversation. There is a

1042
00:49:19,382 --> 00:49:22,381
Speaker 3: link in the show notes that is for subscribers.

1043
00:49:22,582 --> 00:49:24,902
Speaker 4: Don't forget just before we go to listen to Parenting

1044
00:49:24,942 --> 00:49:27,462
Speaker 4: out Loud. It drops every week on Saturday. In our

1045
00:49:27,582 --> 00:49:31,382
Speaker 4: last episode, we talked about why Magic is having a

1046
00:49:31,502 --> 00:49:35,902
Speaker 4: moment and also delve into the oldest daughter birth auder

1047
00:49:35,982 --> 00:49:39,622
Speaker 4: theory that Taylor has just popularized for us find it

1048
00:49:39,661 --> 00:49:41,822
Speaker 4: in its own feed. You just have to search Parenting

1049
00:49:41,942 --> 00:49:44,982
Speaker 4: out Loud and tap follows so you don't miss an episode.

1050
00:49:45,062 --> 00:49:45,982
Speaker 1: Bye bye,