WEBVTT - Lisa Wilkinson Was Everywhere. Then She Wasn’t 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:05.600 I've been on a huge learning curve, but you know 0:00:05.680 --> 0:00:10.039 one I think I'm stronger for. You know, I know 0:00:11.320 --> 0:00:17.120 who counts in my life. I have seen enormous kindness. 0:00:18.040 --> 0:00:20.520 I've seen the best of people, and I've seen the 0:00:20.520 --> 0:00:21.400 worst of people. 0:00:23.040 --> 0:00:28.640 Lisa Wilkinson has spent literally decades telling other people's stories. 0:00:29.320 --> 0:00:32.559 As a journalist, editor and broadcaster, She's been one of 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:37.240 the most recognizable and trusted voices in Australian media. She's 0:00:37.280 --> 0:00:40.840 someone who's helped shape not just the stories we hear, 0:00:41.560 --> 0:00:45.600 but also how we understand ourselves. From her early days 0:00:45.600 --> 0:00:48.720 at Dolly mag and calioh through to her years on 0:00:48.800 --> 0:00:53.560 Breakfast TV, Lisa's been a constant presence in the cultural conversation, 0:00:54.400 --> 0:00:58.080 part of the rhythm of people's lives and part of 0:00:58.120 --> 0:01:01.480 the way we've understood the world around us. But there's 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:06.640 a difference between building a career on asking questions and 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:10.160 finding yourself in a position where you're the one being 0:01:10.319 --> 0:01:14.760 asked to answer them. Now, after those defining chapters in 0:01:14.800 --> 0:01:19.080 magazines and television, Lisa's moved into her third act, one 0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:24.040 that's quieter, more reflective, and centered on long form storytelling. 0:01:24.720 --> 0:01:28.120 Her latest book returns her to what first drew her 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:33.000 to journalism, telling someone else's story, this time through the 0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:39.600 life of Australian Titanic survivor Evelyn Marsden. In this conversation, 0:01:39.920 --> 0:01:43.839 Lisa reflects on the different chapters of her career, from 0:01:44.600 --> 0:01:49.080 her ambition and early success to the complexity of her 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:54.400 time in TV and the more uncertain, quieter space she 0:01:54.440 --> 0:01:58.880 finds herself in. Now we talk about identity, about success, 0:01:58.960 --> 0:02:02.480 about what happens when something that has defined you for 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:06.640 so long begins to fall away, and about the process 0:02:06.800 --> 0:02:11.240 of finding your way back to yourself when the noise subsides. 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:19.600 This is Lisa Wilkinson. Well, Lisa Wilkinson, welcome to No Filter. 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:21.560 It is so nice to see you, Kaylin. 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:26.120 Oh my goodness. I feel like you were like from 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:30.640 a Shakespeare play from the womb, untimely ripped because we 0:02:30.760 --> 0:02:32.680 used to see each other at the project and then 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:36.240 I didn't see you anymore, and neither did the viewer. 0:02:37.520 --> 0:02:40.040 I'm just going to say to our listeners, the No 0:02:40.160 --> 0:02:44.079 Filter listeners, that we will not be in this discussion, 0:02:44.240 --> 0:02:50.320 in this conversation discussing Britney Higgins or Bruce Lammon. That's 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:55.080 for legal reasons. So this is an auspicious day for 0:02:55.160 --> 0:03:00.840 you because we're also here to catch up with you 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:04.800 and to find out where Lisa Wilkinson's been at, but 0:03:05.040 --> 0:03:10.440 also to discuss your new venture, which is an epic, 0:03:11.600 --> 0:03:15.560 like an epic undertaking. And this is very much a 0:03:15.600 --> 0:03:21.919 hallmark of you. I've realized that when you take on jobs, 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:24.080 you don't take on small jobs. 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:28.000 I also have a tendency to take on jobs that 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:30.200 I'm not even sure I can do yet. 0:03:30.760 --> 0:03:33.560 Will you go? Where As the ancient mariners would say 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:38.080 they be monsters, no one has charted that map for you. 0:03:38.680 --> 0:03:39.120 True. 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:42.960 So it started for people who may not know when 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:48.280 you're nineteen at Dolly Magazine as the receptionist. Yeah, an 0:03:48.320 --> 0:03:52.160 ad barring journalist, and then two years later I. 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:58.520 Was the editor. Like what with the management thinking now crazy? 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:03.600 I just I still don't know why they gave me 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:06.520 that opportunity. But what I knew was I was not 0:04:06.600 --> 0:04:11.360 going to waste it. I couldn't understand why me, this 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:15.320 kid from the Western suburbs, who you know, didn't have 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:19.599 the old school tie or any kind of cushy media 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:22.479 links that got me there. I just got there on 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:26.880 hard work and whatever it was that my talent was 0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:31.240 that those above me recognized, and I think they just thought, 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:34.600 we'll give this kid a shot, and I decided I'm 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:35.560 just going to go for it. 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:37.800 Well, you are the sort of person that if you 0:04:37.800 --> 0:04:41.680 give them a shot, like you'll take out the whole fleet. 0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:46.680 That is because you'll die trying totally. 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:51.080 You know, I do enjoy hard work. I always have 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:53.000 and I've always worked. 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:55.880 And where did that come from? Because I was also 0:04:56.360 --> 0:04:57.960 in the time that I spent with you, I was 0:04:57.960 --> 0:05:01.560 also reading your memoir. It wasn't meant to be like that. 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:04.920 Goodness me, you've gone I have, You've done your homework. 0:05:05.080 --> 0:05:07.320 If you want to know anything about yourself, you can 0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:07.800 ask me. 0:05:09.960 --> 0:05:12.200 I'm a little bit over me at this point from. 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:16.720 Going well, it's because your upbringing, as you describe it, 0:05:16.800 --> 0:05:21.200 was just so at that time, like a slice of 0:05:21.800 --> 0:05:27.440 average Australia with your beautiful dad and mom Ray and 0:05:27.440 --> 0:05:32.479 Beryl and your ballet lessons, and you're going to the 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:39.240 local school and you loved ballet, adored it, absolutely adored it, 0:05:39.680 --> 0:05:43.640 and it brought the eye and the eye of some 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:44.799 of the girls at school. 0:05:45.680 --> 0:05:50.000 Ballet was not cool at Campbelltown High School. 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:52.159 But there was also something about you, because I always 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:55.040 think so many people who end up in the public eye, 0:05:55.680 --> 0:05:59.000 I think have had experiences when they were at school 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:03.160 that were not necessarily pleasant. Maybe for guys it's different. 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:06.360 I think our industry is populated with guys who with 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:11.840 how fellow well met those guys you know, for whom 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:16.760 the Red Sea parted. But most women in media seem 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:21.719 to have an experience there's something that's different about them, 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:27.839 and that's what draws the eye. What was it about 0:06:27.880 --> 0:06:32.640 you that what that was different? And that drew the eye? 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:35.680 If you reflect back on, say, being bullied when you 0:06:35.680 --> 0:06:39.760 were a kid, when you're older, sometimes I think you 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:41.920 get to see yourself through the prism not of your 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:44.000 own gaze, but of how you look to them. 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:48.680 I can say, hand on heart, I have no idea. 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:55.960 Oh really, it baffled me at the time. I was 0:06:56.080 --> 0:07:02.520 told that the chief bully's boyfriend was apparently saying nice 0:07:02.520 --> 0:07:08.280 things about me. Ah, so that was possibly the original catalyst. 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:12.280 But you know, it is that thing of once someone's 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:17.520 been targeted, and I mean and a pylon begins, yes, 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:24.160 and we're talking the seventies here, Yes, that bruise becomes 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:26.880 a bit of a gaping wound, and you become an 0:07:26.920 --> 0:07:29.160 easy target, I think, and you want to make yourself 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:34.400 small and you want to disappear between the cracks. But 0:07:34.480 --> 0:07:37.200 then once I was out of school and I was 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:41.480 out of that environment and that backdrop where I'd felt 0:07:41.520 --> 0:07:47.160 so humiliated and belittled, I wanted to prove something to 0:07:47.200 --> 0:07:52.080 myself that I was better than the way that they 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:56.640 saw me. That I could prove to myself. I didn't 0:07:56.640 --> 0:07:59.200 care about anybody else, but I wanted to prove something 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:01.440 to myself. And I did that through hard work. 0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:06.400 And that's amazing because not everybody has that epiphany or 0:08:06.440 --> 0:08:10.600 has that breakthrough. You know. Sometimes people are shrunken and diminished, 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:15.000 and that's a very weak place to be trying to 0:08:15.320 --> 0:08:19.760 emerge from. What was it that gave you the strength 0:08:19.840 --> 0:08:22.680 and the drive and the clarity to go, There's a 0:08:22.720 --> 0:08:24.440 world out there, I'm going to see it. 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:27.560 I think it was my dad, Yeah, right, because Dad 0:08:27.600 --> 0:08:30.960 always believed in me. And I never ever ever told 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:34.200 my parents about what was going on at school because 0:08:35.400 --> 0:08:39.240 that would make it more real, and I didn't I 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:41.960 knew my mother. My mother would not be able to 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:46.760 give me advice because she'd had such a shocking childhood, 0:08:46.800 --> 0:08:50.640 and right throughout my career until my beautiful late mother 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:54.040 passed away, whenever I would do something a bit gutsy 0:08:54.600 --> 0:08:57.280 in my career, she would always say to me, I'm 0:08:57.360 --> 0:08:59.960 daring you really sure? Have you got advice on that? 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:02.839 Do you know you don't think you're pushing it a 0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:06.080 little bit too far? She would regularly call me after 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:12.680 I'd interviewed the Prime Minister on the DA Show and say, oh, Darling, really, 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:15.440 did you really have to speak to mister Abbitt like that. 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:24.080 She didn't beate me, but she would always fear for me. Yes, 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:27.000 So I don't know. Maybe she sensed what happened in 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:30.000 high school, but because she'd. 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:35.160 Had I mean, she'd been a bird that a little 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:39.040 bird that had its her feathers pecked herself really bad. 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:43.960 Completely, and she was fortunate enough to meet and marry 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:49.920 an angel in my father Ray. And I think it 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:57.600 was Dad's ongoing quiet belief in me that saw me 0:09:57.720 --> 0:10:00.640 through all of that, because I think for Dad, I 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:05.640 was always this right, and I think I always wanted 0:10:05.679 --> 0:10:09.640 to lift for Dad. And Dad wasn't someone who would 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:14.080 give out huge compliments or you know, it's and He's 0:10:14.120 --> 0:10:15.120 one of those people. 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:15.400 You know. 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:21.079 I'm a great believer that your children always see the 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:24.360 real version of you when you think they're not looking. 0:10:24.559 --> 0:10:28.040 Yes, yes, you think that you're editing yourself. 0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:31.760 Yeah, but they actually get a full three sixty completely 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:36.640 and it's not always pretty, no true, But I think 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:40.840 you know, in so many ways, Dad was my north 0:10:40.880 --> 0:10:43.640 star and has been my entire life. He still is now. 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:47.400 You know. He was such a community minded person, you know, 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:51.359 social justice, you know, giving. 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:53.439 Back the Lions Club. 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:56.040 The Lions Club, he was president there. He was president 0:10:56.080 --> 0:10:59.080 of the local rugby union club. Who would know that 0:10:59.160 --> 0:11:01.880 I would, Well, Dad never discovered that I would go 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:03.640 on to marry a wallaby. 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:04.560 Which is incredible. 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:07.559 I met Pete eighteen months after Dad passed away. 0:11:07.760 --> 0:11:09.360 And how long have you dad known him? 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:12.200 Well, Dad had known him as a wallaby and. 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:14.480 In fact years before you met him. 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:18.319 Yeah. Yeah. And the first time I met Pete we 0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:20.600 were both guests on the Today Show. I was editing 0:11:20.679 --> 0:11:23.120 Cleo at the time and he was a part time 0:11:23.160 --> 0:11:26.200 reporter for the Today Show And it was one week 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:30.160 after Dad had passed away and he was getting out 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:32.480 of the makeup chair as I was just getting in 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:37.520 and we were introduced by the producer and I remember 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:40.400 him putting out his hand just as he was starting 0:11:40.400 --> 0:11:42.720 to get out of the chair, and I put my 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:46.600 hand out to his, and I remember my hand going 0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:50.440 up and thinking, when is this guy going to be 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:51.640 fully erect? 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:55.000 Oh, if you're pardon the expression, hang on and what 0:11:55.120 --> 0:12:00.280 was the end? He stopped at two meters and the 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:03.480 producer said my name, and she said, Peter FITD Simons, 0:12:03.480 --> 0:12:08.760 this is Lisa Wilkinson and I felt this beautiful, warm handshake, 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:14.160 but strong. And then about a half a beat after 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:18.319 she'd said my name, Pete said to me, Oh, you're 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:19.920 not Ray Wilkinson's daughter, are you? 0:12:21.280 --> 0:12:25.440 And I thought, do not mention my father's name. I 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:29.000 have got to go on national television in five minutes. 0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:33.360 I am only here because I've had a week off 0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:37.800 with buried dad. I need to focus on work so 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:42.480 I can find something else to fill my life other 0:12:42.559 --> 0:12:47.200 than the grief of losing my north Star. And he 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:50.640 said some beautiful words about Dad, and I just I 0:12:50.800 --> 0:12:52.600 just kind of thank you very much and sort of 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:53.199 sat down. 0:12:55.360 --> 0:13:00.480 Especially in that situation where the grief is raw, it's 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:04.840 often the kindness completely you undone. 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:06.959 Always has, always well and to. 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:10.760 Encounter him, the giant of him, who knew your dad 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:13.640 and loved your dad, to speak of him beautifully. 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:19.319 Yeah. He Dad was just so loved by everyone who 0:13:19.640 --> 0:13:23.240 knew him, worked with him, did charity work with him. 0:13:23.600 --> 0:13:26.920 And I still get people saying things about my dad 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:31.240 to this day, people who knew and loved him deeply. 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:35.200 He said, you quote him in your book, and it 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:37.840 was something of a mantra I gather that you've lived by, 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:42.480 which was he said, Dad always taught me to try 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:46.480 to look after the bird with the broken wing. And 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:49.600 I was thinking about that in light of you and 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:53.880 the troubles which you have found yourself immersed in over 0:13:53.920 --> 0:14:00.480 the last three years, yeah, four years or three or years, 0:14:01.400 --> 0:14:06.720 and I thought to myself, who was looking after you 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:08.960 when you had your broken wing? 0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:17.120 My family never left my side. They've been incredible. 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:22.240 And when you were at what period? I mean, I'm 0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:26.240 trying to put together the pieces of because you have 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:28.360 been so present in our lives. 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:30.400 You're sorry about that everyone. 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:34.720 It's not amazing really, to the point where we now 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:37.560 know we can't take TV for granted at all. Right. 0:14:38.240 --> 0:14:40.040 I think there's a lot of people in TV finding 0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:40.520 that at the. 0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:44.800 Moment, right, But because you were so present, you were 0:14:44.880 --> 0:14:49.200 so present on the Today Show, everyone was waking up 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:52.080 with you, and then you were very present on the 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:57.400 project and then you were gone. When you were gone, 0:14:57.720 --> 0:15:01.720 what did that feel like for you? Because you're also 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:07.400 wired two be seen? Do you know what I mean? 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:09.160 And to do that work in the public eye? 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:11.720 No, No, I wouldn't say that. That is not how 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:14.040 I would define it. I would say I'm wired to 0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:17.720 work and the fact that I was in the public 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:22.240 eye was just like a cause and effect thing, you know. 0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:24.840 It was it was something that fell off the back 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:26.760 of doing work that I loved. 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:29.920 That happened to have a visual aspect to it. 0:15:30.120 --> 0:15:35.200 Yeah, But I mean I didn't disappear completely, because it's 0:15:35.240 --> 0:15:38.000 quite something when you find paparazzi chasing you down the 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:41.760 street and jumping out from behind bushes and you're appearing 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:47.480 in a way that is designed to put you in 0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:50.880 a certain light. So you know that do you think 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:55.360 that light was? Do you think a very negative light? 0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:56.200 What was? 0:15:56.480 --> 0:15:58.360 What was that? They? 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:04.680 Strong? Something young woman does work that challenges the norm 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:07.040 doesn't go down well in some quarters. 0:16:07.280 --> 0:16:11.280 Right, I'm very curious about that, because it seems to 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:15.360 me that the tone around you changed when your memoir 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:21.720 came out. And I'm reminded of that quote, never pick 0:16:21.720 --> 0:16:24.760 a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel, right, 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:29.280 Oh yeah, yeah, And I wouldn't say that I picked 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:32.400 a fight. No, I just told the truth. But to 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:33.760 some it was perceived. 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:39.040 Yeah, and strong forces can decide we need to shut 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:39.480 this down. 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:43.840 And what was it in particular? Do you think was 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:48.640 it the pay, the gender pay disparity with it was 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:57.120 all of your host Karl? Was it you having asserted 0:16:57.160 --> 0:17:00.800 yourself in a negotiation? What was it? 0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:04.160 I think you'd have to ask those who were behind 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:09.040 it all. I mean, I'm not really sure, but the 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:13.680 reaction I got from women was wonderful. I think a 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:16.719 lot of people could see what was going on, and 0:17:18.359 --> 0:17:20.760 people could see that all I was doing was telling 0:17:20.760 --> 0:17:24.119 the truth. But you know, quite often in memoirs people 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:29.640 avert the truth because of the effect that it might have. 0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:33.560 And also, when I was reading it, I was very 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:38.359 conscious of the fact that you weren't being inflammatory, you 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:41.800 weren't poking a bear. I thought it was a very 0:17:41.880 --> 0:17:45.639 moderate It was a very interesting telling of as you 0:17:45.680 --> 0:17:47.680 say in the book what a lot of women encounter 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:49.160 in their jobs. 0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:49.639 Yeah. 0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:54.160 Completely. And I disappeared off the show, off the Today Show. 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:58.240 So I felt the audience was owed an explanation about 0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:02.440 exactly what happened because I wasn't rejecting the audience. 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:05.200 No, you were not given the option. 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:10.359 No, And how did that feel? Because I was really sad. 0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:11.600 Yeah, that's hard. 0:18:11.640 --> 0:18:15.000 I loved that job, I really really. It was such 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:21.479 a privilege to wake up with Australia and to present 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:27.440 the news and to interview every major politician in the land. 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:31.080 We had a stream of prime ministers during my tenure there, 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:35.400 so there was a passing parade. 0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:40.040 So and also you had built the show from it 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:44.040 being well back in the field, and you had built 0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:44.840 it built well. 0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:47.680 Cart and I were a really good combination. We had 0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:51.520 an incredible chemistry. In many ways, we were quite different 0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:54.640 from each other. But you know, I would I say 0:18:54.640 --> 0:18:56.760 this in the book that you know, right up until 0:18:56.760 --> 0:19:00.200 the very last day, we could still make it each 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:03.280 other laugh, We could still challenge each other, we could 0:19:03.359 --> 0:19:08.200 still you know, talk through interesting ideas. You know, there 0:19:08.280 --> 0:19:12.639 was still a huge amount of chemistry between us. But 0:19:12.760 --> 0:19:17.600 the management of the day, made a call on who 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:19.560 they wanted to proceed with and who they didn't. 0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:21.879 And do you think the aim of that was to 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:25.199 pit you against each Other's too strong? But do you 0:19:25.200 --> 0:19:27.960 know what I mean, to drive a wedge there as 0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:32.000 a negotiating tactic or as a divide and conquer. 0:19:31.920 --> 0:19:33.640 I'll never know, because I was never told. 0:19:34.480 --> 0:19:36.080 And did you speak to Carl after that? 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:37.560 Oh? Yeah? Yeah? 0:19:38.359 --> 0:19:43.240 And how was he? What was his We've probably had. 0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:48.760 More honest conversations since. But you know that was a 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:51.960 difficult position for him to be in as well. But 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:55.360 you know I moved on. I went to the project 0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:59.359 which I had an options move on, So you know, 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:02.840 in many ways I couldn't complain. I was just I 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:06.080 was sad to lose that particular role. 0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:06.680 Yes, But. 0:20:09.160 --> 0:20:13.040 I have always looked at jobs like that. Every job 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:17.280 I've ever had, I've always thought, oh my god, what 0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:19.000 idiot put me here? 0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:20.000 Like? 0:20:20.600 --> 0:20:23.880 How did I end up in this role? And every 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:28.560 day I always approached every job I've had as. 0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:30.280 Though it's run by idiots. 0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:34.960 That wasn't how I was going to finish that sentence, 0:20:35.000 --> 0:20:39.440 But I don't dismiss it. No, I've always approached work 0:20:39.600 --> 0:20:42.640 as at some point someone's going to come and tap 0:20:42.680 --> 0:20:45.080 me on the shoulder. And that's a great way to 0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:48.960 approach any job, particularly in the media, because it's such 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:54.840 a peripatetic kind of existence, and you know, swings and roundabouts, 0:20:54.960 --> 0:21:00.600 the whims of others, management changes. So I always walked 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:04.639 in there thinking, I'm so lucky to have this job. 0:21:04.960 --> 0:21:07.439 I'm going to make this a great show. I'm going 0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:10.200 to do a great interview. I always did my homework, 0:21:10.520 --> 0:21:16.840 you know. I always approached the role with gratitude and 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:21.000 having done my homework, So I don't I don't look 0:21:21.040 --> 0:21:24.240 back and regret anything about that role. 0:21:24.320 --> 0:21:26.200 Other than not getting to say goodbye. 0:21:26.680 --> 0:21:28.640 Yes, but that wasn't my call. 0:21:29.000 --> 0:21:31.359 No, And the same on the project, not getting to 0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:32.159 say goodbye. 0:21:32.320 --> 0:21:38.080 Well, I did say goodbye, but it was under or 0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:41.800 it wasn't my call. That was somebody else's decision. Once again, 0:21:42.240 --> 0:21:42.800 So of. 0:21:42.880 --> 0:21:47.359 All the jobs that you've had, which one do you 0:21:47.440 --> 0:21:51.840 look back on with the most fondness? And I gain 0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:54.720 I know that you're not a pillar of salt sort 0:21:54.760 --> 0:21:59.760 of person, so prone to the revision mirror. But which 0:21:59.760 --> 0:22:08.680 of those stirs the heart? I would say, editing, Dolly ah, yeah, leaving. 0:22:08.320 --> 0:22:13.480 That job that had given me so much joy, and 0:22:13.520 --> 0:22:17.320 the engagement with the readers, like that relationship was so 0:22:18.680 --> 0:22:24.080 beautiful and pure and honest and trusting because it was 0:22:24.119 --> 0:22:28.159 a teenage bible, you know, young girls trusted us in 0:22:28.200 --> 0:22:30.800 a way that was never lost on me. 0:22:33.200 --> 0:22:38.480 More with Lisa Wilkinson after this short break. So I 0:22:38.600 --> 0:22:42.400 just finished reading your book this morning, right, the. 0:22:42.320 --> 0:22:45.520 Second one, the second Evelyn, The second book Evelyn, The 0:22:45.560 --> 0:22:51.760 Titanic Story of Evelyn, Yeah, Marston, which is such an epic. 0:22:53.119 --> 0:22:57.359 It's an odyssey. It was an odyssey. Yeah, And I 0:22:57.520 --> 0:23:01.320 can't I couldn't help thinking I was reading about Evelyn, 0:23:01.320 --> 0:23:03.800 this extraordinary Australian woman. 0:23:04.119 --> 0:23:05.000 Isn't she amazing? 0:23:05.200 --> 0:23:07.560 Extraordinary from South Australia. 0:23:07.640 --> 0:23:08.560 I just love her. 0:23:09.040 --> 0:23:11.560 I didn't know that there were six Australians on the 0:23:11.600 --> 0:23:12.800 Titanic either, did. 0:23:12.640 --> 0:23:15.800 I, which is where the idea came from. Because my 0:23:15.960 --> 0:23:23.320 husband is a very successful author of great Australian history stories. 0:23:23.000 --> 0:23:24.960 Yes, and how many is he written. 0:23:25.760 --> 0:23:29.239 I think he's in his forties, forty plus books, I know. 0:23:29.880 --> 0:23:35.280 And the really annoying thing is he works incredibly hard 0:23:35.320 --> 0:23:39.080 on them. The research is enormous. But Pete has always 0:23:39.119 --> 0:23:44.640 written with such incredible ease. It just flows out of him. 0:23:44.920 --> 0:23:49.800 And he's quite poetic in his writing. He's like, you, 0:23:49.800 --> 0:23:53.600 you're an extraordinary writer. You have the most beautiful turn 0:23:53.640 --> 0:23:57.439 of phrase, and Pete is like that and so. But 0:23:57.480 --> 0:24:00.720 the history thing adds another dimension to oh really does? 0:24:01.040 --> 0:24:03.320 I mean? It was one thing to write my own memoir, 0:24:03.520 --> 0:24:06.960 but to disappear into the life of a woman from 0:24:07.119 --> 0:24:11.480 more than one hundred years ago was an extraordinary exercise 0:24:11.520 --> 0:24:14.919 that I'd never embarked upon before. But it's an idea 0:24:15.040 --> 0:24:18.400 I came up with for Pete because I was in 0:24:18.440 --> 0:24:24.960 the middle of the nightmare of the Trial and Pete 0:24:25.000 --> 0:24:27.399 was working on an upcoming book that he's got and 0:24:27.440 --> 0:24:30.720 a picture of the Titanic came up and he just 0:24:30.760 --> 0:24:33.520 said to me, isn't she a beauty? And I said, 0:24:33.520 --> 0:24:35.240 what are you talking about? And he showed me the 0:24:35.280 --> 0:24:37.439 picture and I said, oh, is that the Titanic? And 0:24:37.480 --> 0:24:39.560 he said, yes, isn't she a beauty? And I said 0:24:40.280 --> 0:24:45.840 she was probably not so pretty these days, But and 0:24:45.880 --> 0:24:47.840 I just thought about it for a second. I said, 0:24:48.119 --> 0:24:51.760 were there any Australians on the Titanic? And he said, 0:24:51.760 --> 0:24:53.840 I've got no idea. And I said, I don't either, 0:24:53.920 --> 0:24:55.880 And how do we not know whether there are any 0:24:55.880 --> 0:24:59.199 is Like, there might be an amazing story there for 0:24:59.280 --> 0:25:01.359 one of your upcome books. You really should check it 0:25:01.400 --> 0:25:05.120 out anyway, and he agreed. A couple of days went by, 0:25:05.280 --> 0:25:07.119 I asked him, you know, if he'd done anything, and 0:25:07.119 --> 0:25:11.000 he hadn't, and I thought, hmm, I've got a computer. 0:25:11.800 --> 0:25:14.000 I've heard of that thing called the internet. I should 0:25:14.080 --> 0:25:17.040 check and see. And I discovered that there were six 0:25:17.280 --> 0:25:21.679 Australian born passengers and crew on the Titanic and only 0:25:21.840 --> 0:25:26.879 one survived. This twenty eight year old kick ass nurse, 0:25:27.640 --> 0:25:31.160 youngest of five children, grew up in Hoylton, an hour 0:25:31.200 --> 0:25:34.800