Speaker 1: I've been on a huge learning curve, but you know
Speaker 1: one I think I'm stronger for. You know, I know
Speaker 1: who counts in my life. I have seen enormous kindness.
Speaker 1: I've seen the best of people, and I've seen the
Speaker 1: worst of people.
Speaker 2: Lisa Wilkinson has spent literally decades telling other people's stories.
Speaker 2: As a journalist, editor and broadcaster, She's been one of
Speaker 2: the most recognizable and trusted voices in Australian media. She's
Speaker 2: someone who's helped shape not just the stories we hear,
Speaker 2: but also how we understand ourselves. From her early days
Speaker 2: at Dolly mag and calioh through to her years on
Speaker 2: Breakfast TV, Lisa's been a constant presence in the cultural conversation,
Speaker 2: part of the rhythm of people's lives and part of
Speaker 2: the way we've understood the world around us. But there's
Speaker 2: a difference between building a career on asking questions and
Speaker 2: finding yourself in a position where you're the one being
Speaker 2: asked to answer them. Now, after those defining chapters in
Speaker 2: magazines and television, Lisa's moved into her third act, one
Speaker 2: that's quieter, more reflective, and centered on long form storytelling.
Speaker 2: Her latest book returns her to what first drew her
Speaker 2: to journalism, telling someone else's story, this time through the
Speaker 2: life of Australian Titanic survivor Evelyn Marsden. In this conversation,
Speaker 2: Lisa reflects on the different chapters of her career, from
Speaker 2: her ambition and early success to the complexity of her
Speaker 2: time in TV and the more uncertain, quieter space she
Speaker 2: finds herself in. Now we talk about identity, about success,
Speaker 2: about what happens when something that has defined you for
Speaker 2: so long begins to fall away, and about the process
Speaker 2: of finding your way back to yourself when the noise subsides.
Speaker 2: This is Lisa Wilkinson. Well, Lisa Wilkinson, welcome to No Filter.
Speaker 1: It is so nice to see you, Kaylin.
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. I feel like you were like from
Speaker 2: a Shakespeare play from the womb, untimely ripped because we
Speaker 2: used to see each other at the project and then
Speaker 2: I didn't see you anymore, and neither did the viewer.
Speaker 2: I'm just going to say to our listeners, the No
Speaker 2: Filter listeners, that we will not be in this discussion,
Speaker 2: in this conversation discussing Britney Higgins or Bruce Lammon. That's
Speaker 2: for legal reasons. So this is an auspicious day for
Speaker 2: you because we're also here to catch up with you
Speaker 2: and to find out where Lisa Wilkinson's been at, but
Speaker 2: also to discuss your new venture, which is an epic,
Speaker 2: like an epic undertaking. And this is very much a
Speaker 2: hallmark of you. I've realized that when you take on jobs,
Speaker 2: you don't take on small jobs.
Speaker 1: I also have a tendency to take on jobs that
Speaker 1: I'm not even sure I can do yet.
Speaker 2: Will you go? Where As the ancient mariners would say
Speaker 2: they be monsters, no one has charted that map for you.
Speaker 1: True.
Speaker 2: So it started for people who may not know when
Speaker 2: you're nineteen at Dolly Magazine as the receptionist. Yeah, an
Speaker 2: ad barring journalist, and then two years later I.
Speaker 1: Was the editor. Like what with the management thinking now crazy?
Speaker 1: I just I still don't know why they gave me
Speaker 1: that opportunity. But what I knew was I was not
Speaker 1: going to waste it. I couldn't understand why me, this
Speaker 1: kid from the Western suburbs, who you know, didn't have
Speaker 1: the old school tie or any kind of cushy media
Speaker 1: links that got me there. I just got there on
Speaker 1: hard work and whatever it was that my talent was
Speaker 1: that those above me recognized, and I think they just thought,
Speaker 1: we'll give this kid a shot, and I decided I'm
Speaker 1: just going to go for it.
Speaker 2: Well, you are the sort of person that if you
Speaker 2: give them a shot, like you'll take out the whole fleet.
Speaker 2: That is because you'll die trying totally.
Speaker 1: You know, I do enjoy hard work. I always have
Speaker 1: and I've always worked.
Speaker 2: And where did that come from? Because I was also
Speaker 2: in the time that I spent with you, I was
Speaker 2: also reading your memoir. It wasn't meant to be like that.
Speaker 1: Goodness me, you've gone I have, You've done your homework.
Speaker 2: If you want to know anything about yourself, you can
Speaker 2: ask me.
Speaker 1: I'm a little bit over me at this point from.
Speaker 2: Going well, it's because your upbringing, as you describe it,
Speaker 2: was just so at that time, like a slice of
Speaker 2: average Australia with your beautiful dad and mom Ray and
Speaker 2: Beryl and your ballet lessons, and you're going to the
Speaker 2: local school and you loved ballet, adored it, absolutely adored it,
Speaker 2: and it brought the eye and the eye of some
Speaker 2: of the girls at school.
Speaker 1: Ballet was not cool at Campbelltown High School.
Speaker 2: But there was also something about you, because I always
Speaker 2: think so many people who end up in the public eye,
Speaker 2: I think have had experiences when they were at school
Speaker 2: that were not necessarily pleasant. Maybe for guys it's different.
Speaker 2: I think our industry is populated with guys who with
Speaker 2: how fellow well met those guys you know, for whom
Speaker 2: the Red Sea parted. But most women in media seem
Speaker 2: to have an experience there's something that's different about them,
Speaker 2: and that's what draws the eye. What was it about
Speaker 2: you that what that was different? And that drew the eye?
Speaker 2: If you reflect back on, say, being bullied when you
Speaker 2: were a kid, when you're older, sometimes I think you
Speaker 2: get to see yourself through the prism not of your
Speaker 2: own gaze, but of how you look to them.
Speaker 1: I can say, hand on heart, I have no idea.
Speaker 1: Oh really, it baffled me at the time. I was
Speaker 1: told that the chief bully's boyfriend was apparently saying nice
Speaker 1: things about me. Ah, so that was possibly the original catalyst.
Speaker 1: But you know, it is that thing of once someone's
Speaker 1: been targeted, and I mean and a pylon begins, yes,
Speaker 1: and we're talking the seventies here, Yes, that bruise becomes
Speaker 1: a bit of a gaping wound, and you become an
Speaker 1: easy target, I think, and you want to make yourself
Speaker 1: small and you want to disappear between the cracks. But
Speaker 1: then once I was out of school and I was
Speaker 1: out of that environment and that backdrop where I'd felt
Speaker 1: so humiliated and belittled, I wanted to prove something to
Speaker 1: myself that I was better than the way that they
Speaker 1: saw me. That I could prove to myself. I didn't
Speaker 1: care about anybody else, but I wanted to prove something
Speaker 1: to myself. And I did that through hard work.
Speaker 2: And that's amazing because not everybody has that epiphany or
Speaker 2: has that breakthrough. You know. Sometimes people are shrunken and diminished,
Speaker 2: and that's a very weak place to be trying to
Speaker 2: emerge from. What was it that gave you the strength
Speaker 2: and the drive and the clarity to go, There's a
Speaker 2: world out there, I'm going to see it.
Speaker 1: I think it was my dad, Yeah, right, because Dad
Speaker 1: always believed in me. And I never ever ever told
Speaker 1: my parents about what was going on at school because
Speaker 1: that would make it more real, and I didn't I
Speaker 1: knew my mother. My mother would not be able to
Speaker 1: give me advice because she'd had such a shocking childhood,
Speaker 1: and right throughout my career until my beautiful late mother
Speaker 1: passed away, whenever I would do something a bit gutsy
Speaker 1: in my career, she would always say to me, I'm
Speaker 1: daring you really sure? Have you got advice on that?
Speaker 1: Do you know you don't think you're pushing it a
Speaker 1: little bit too far? She would regularly call me after
Speaker 1: I'd interviewed the Prime Minister on the DA Show and say, oh, Darling, really,
Speaker 1: did you really have to speak to mister Abbitt like that.
Speaker 1: She didn't beate me, but she would always fear for me. Yes,
Speaker 1: So I don't know. Maybe she sensed what happened in
Speaker 1: high school, but because she'd.
Speaker 2: Had I mean, she'd been a bird that a little
Speaker 2: bird that had its her feathers pecked herself really bad.
Speaker 1: Completely, and she was fortunate enough to meet and marry
Speaker 1: an angel in my father Ray. And I think it
Speaker 1: was Dad's ongoing quiet belief in me that saw me
Speaker 1: through all of that, because I think for Dad, I
Speaker 1: was always this right, and I think I always wanted
Speaker 1: to lift for Dad. And Dad wasn't someone who would
Speaker 1: give out huge compliments or you know, it's and He's
Speaker 1: one of those people.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: I'm a great believer that your children always see the
Speaker 1: real version of you when you think they're not looking.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, you think that you're editing yourself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but they actually get a full three sixty completely
Speaker 1: and it's not always pretty, no true, But I think
Speaker 1: you know, in so many ways, Dad was my north
Speaker 1: star and has been my entire life. He still is now.
Speaker 1: You know. He was such a community minded person, you know,
Speaker 1: social justice, you know, giving.
Speaker 2: Back the Lions Club.
Speaker 1: The Lions Club, he was president there. He was president
Speaker 1: of the local rugby union club. Who would know that
Speaker 1: I would, Well, Dad never discovered that I would go
Speaker 1: on to marry a wallaby.
Speaker 2: Which is incredible.
Speaker 1: I met Pete eighteen months after Dad passed away.
Speaker 2: And how long have you dad known him?
Speaker 1: Well, Dad had known him as a wallaby and.
Speaker 2: In fact years before you met him.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. And the first time I met Pete we
Speaker 1: were both guests on the Today Show. I was editing
Speaker 1: Cleo at the time and he was a part time
Speaker 1: reporter for the Today Show And it was one week
Speaker 1: after Dad had passed away and he was getting out
Speaker 1: of the makeup chair as I was just getting in
Speaker 1: and we were introduced by the producer and I remember
Speaker 1: him putting out his hand just as he was starting
Speaker 1: to get out of the chair, and I put my
Speaker 1: hand out to his, and I remember my hand going
Speaker 1: up and thinking, when is this guy going to be
Speaker 1: fully erect?
Speaker 3: Oh, if you're pardon the expression, hang on and what
Speaker 3: was the end? He stopped at two meters and the
Speaker 3: producer said my name, and she said, Peter FITD Simons,
Speaker 3: this is Lisa Wilkinson and I felt this beautiful, warm handshake,
Speaker 3: but strong. And then about a half a beat after
Speaker 3: she'd said my name, Pete said to me, Oh, you're
Speaker 3: not Ray Wilkinson's daughter, are you?
Speaker 1: And I thought, do not mention my father's name. I
Speaker 1: have got to go on national television in five minutes.
Speaker 1: I am only here because I've had a week off
Speaker 1: with buried dad. I need to focus on work so
Speaker 1: I can find something else to fill my life other
Speaker 1: than the grief of losing my north Star. And he
Speaker 1: said some beautiful words about Dad, and I just I
Speaker 1: just kind of thank you very much and sort of
Speaker 1: sat down.
Speaker 2: Especially in that situation where the grief is raw, it's
Speaker 2: often the kindness completely you undone.
Speaker 1: Always has, always well and to.
Speaker 2: Encounter him, the giant of him, who knew your dad
Speaker 2: and loved your dad, to speak of him beautifully.
Speaker 1: Yeah. He Dad was just so loved by everyone who
Speaker 1: knew him, worked with him, did charity work with him.
Speaker 1: And I still get people saying things about my dad
Speaker 1: to this day, people who knew and loved him deeply.
Speaker 2: He said, you quote him in your book, and it
Speaker 2: was something of a mantra I gather that you've lived by,
Speaker 2: which was he said, Dad always taught me to try
Speaker 2: to look after the bird with the broken wing. And
Speaker 2: I was thinking about that in light of you and
Speaker 2: the troubles which you have found yourself immersed in over
Speaker 2: the last three years, yeah, four years or three or years,
Speaker 2: and I thought to myself, who was looking after you
Speaker 2: when you had your broken wing?
Speaker 1: My family never left my side. They've been incredible.
Speaker 2: And when you were at what period? I mean, I'm
Speaker 2: trying to put together the pieces of because you have
Speaker 2: been so present in our lives.
Speaker 1: You're sorry about that everyone.
Speaker 2: It's not amazing really, to the point where we now
Speaker 2: know we can't take TV for granted at all. Right.
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of people in TV finding
Speaker 1: that at the.
Speaker 2: Moment, right, But because you were so present, you were
Speaker 2: so present on the Today Show, everyone was waking up
Speaker 2: with you, and then you were very present on the
Speaker 2: project and then you were gone. When you were gone,
Speaker 2: what did that feel like for you? Because you're also
Speaker 2: wired two be seen? Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: And to do that work in the public eye?
Speaker 1: No, No, I wouldn't say that. That is not how
Speaker 1: I would define it. I would say I'm wired to
Speaker 1: work and the fact that I was in the public
Speaker 1: eye was just like a cause and effect thing, you know.
Speaker 1: It was it was something that fell off the back
Speaker 1: of doing work that I loved.
Speaker 2: That happened to have a visual aspect to it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, But I mean I didn't disappear completely, because it's
Speaker 1: quite something when you find paparazzi chasing you down the
Speaker 1: street and jumping out from behind bushes and you're appearing
Speaker 1: in a way that is designed to put you in
Speaker 1: a certain light. So you know that do you think
Speaker 1: that light was? Do you think a very negative light?
Speaker 1: What was?
Speaker 2: What was that? They?
Speaker 1: Strong? Something young woman does work that challenges the norm
Speaker 1: doesn't go down well in some quarters.
Speaker 2: Right, I'm very curious about that, because it seems to
Speaker 2: me that the tone around you changed when your memoir
Speaker 2: came out. And I'm reminded of that quote, never pick
Speaker 2: a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel, right,
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, And I wouldn't say that I picked
Speaker 2: a fight. No, I just told the truth. But to
Speaker 2: some it was perceived.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and strong forces can decide we need to shut
Speaker 1: this down.
Speaker 2: And what was it in particular? Do you think was
Speaker 2: it the pay, the gender pay disparity with it was
Speaker 2: all of your host Karl? Was it you having asserted
Speaker 2: yourself in a negotiation? What was it?
Speaker 1: I think you'd have to ask those who were behind
Speaker 1: it all. I mean, I'm not really sure, but the
Speaker 1: reaction I got from women was wonderful. I think a
Speaker 1: lot of people could see what was going on, and
Speaker 1: people could see that all I was doing was telling
Speaker 1: the truth. But you know, quite often in memoirs people
Speaker 1: avert the truth because of the effect that it might have.
Speaker 1: And also, when I was reading it, I was very
Speaker 1: conscious of the fact that you weren't being inflammatory, you
Speaker 1: weren't poking a bear. I thought it was a very
Speaker 1: moderate It was a very interesting telling of as you
Speaker 1: say in the book what a lot of women encounter
Speaker 1: in their jobs.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Completely. And I disappeared off the show, off the Today Show.
Speaker 1: So I felt the audience was owed an explanation about
Speaker 1: exactly what happened because I wasn't rejecting the audience.
Speaker 2: No, you were not given the option.
Speaker 1: No, And how did that feel? Because I was really sad.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's hard.
Speaker 1: I loved that job, I really really. It was such
Speaker 1: a privilege to wake up with Australia and to present
Speaker 1: the news and to interview every major politician in the land.
Speaker 1: We had a stream of prime ministers during my tenure there,
Speaker 1: so there was a passing parade.
Speaker 2: So and also you had built the show from it
Speaker 2: being well back in the field, and you had built
Speaker 2: it built well.
Speaker 1: Cart and I were a really good combination. We had
Speaker 1: an incredible chemistry. In many ways, we were quite different
Speaker 1: from each other. But you know, I would I say
Speaker 1: this in the book that you know, right up until
Speaker 1: the very last day, we could still make it each
Speaker 1: other laugh, We could still challenge each other, we could
Speaker 1: still you know, talk through interesting ideas. You know, there
Speaker 1: was still a huge amount of chemistry between us. But
Speaker 1: the management of the day, made a call on who
Speaker 1: they wanted to proceed with and who they didn't.
Speaker 2: And do you think the aim of that was to
Speaker 2: pit you against each Other's too strong? But do you
Speaker 2: know what I mean, to drive a wedge there as
Speaker 2: a negotiating tactic or as a divide and conquer.
Speaker 1: I'll never know, because I was never told.
Speaker 2: And did you speak to Carl after that?
Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah? Yeah?
Speaker 2: And how was he? What was his We've probably had.
Speaker 1: More honest conversations since. But you know that was a
Speaker 1: difficult position for him to be in as well. But
Speaker 1: you know I moved on. I went to the project
Speaker 1: which I had an options move on, So you know,
Speaker 1: in many ways I couldn't complain. I was just I
Speaker 1: was sad to lose that particular role.
Speaker 2: Yes, But.
Speaker 1: I have always looked at jobs like that. Every job
Speaker 1: I've ever had, I've always thought, oh my god, what
Speaker 1: idiot put me here?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: How did I end up in this role? And every
Speaker 1: day I always approached every job I've had as.
Speaker 2: Though it's run by idiots.
Speaker 1: That wasn't how I was going to finish that sentence,
Speaker 1: But I don't dismiss it. No, I've always approached work
Speaker 1: as at some point someone's going to come and tap
Speaker 1: me on the shoulder. And that's a great way to
Speaker 1: approach any job, particularly in the media, because it's such
Speaker 1: a peripatetic kind of existence, and you know, swings and roundabouts,
Speaker 1: the whims of others, management changes. So I always walked
Speaker 1: in there thinking, I'm so lucky to have this job.
Speaker 1: I'm going to make this a great show. I'm going
Speaker 1: to do a great interview. I always did my homework,
Speaker 1: you know. I always approached the role with gratitude and
Speaker 1: having done my homework, So I don't I don't look
Speaker 1: back and regret anything about that role.
Speaker 2: Other than not getting to say goodbye.
Speaker 1: Yes, but that wasn't my call.
Speaker 2: No, And the same on the project, not getting to
Speaker 2: say goodbye.
Speaker 1: Well, I did say goodbye, but it was under or
Speaker 1: it wasn't my call. That was somebody else's decision. Once again,
Speaker 1: So of.
Speaker 2: All the jobs that you've had, which one do you
Speaker 2: look back on with the most fondness? And I gain
Speaker 2: I know that you're not a pillar of salt sort
Speaker 2: of person, so prone to the revision mirror. But which
Speaker 2: of those stirs the heart? I would say, editing, Dolly ah, yeah, leaving.
Speaker 1: That job that had given me so much joy, and
Speaker 1: the engagement with the readers, like that relationship was so
Speaker 1: beautiful and pure and honest and trusting because it was
Speaker 1: a teenage bible, you know, young girls trusted us in
Speaker 1: a way that was never lost on me.
Speaker 2: More with Lisa Wilkinson after this short break. So I
Speaker 2: just finished reading your book this morning, right, the.
Speaker 1: Second one, the second Evelyn, The second book Evelyn, The
Speaker 1: Titanic Story of Evelyn, Yeah, Marston, which is such an epic.
Speaker 2: It's an odyssey. It was an odyssey. Yeah, And I
Speaker 2: can't I couldn't help thinking I was reading about Evelyn,
Speaker 2: this extraordinary Australian woman.
Speaker 1: Isn't she amazing?
Speaker 2: Extraordinary from South Australia.
Speaker 1: I just love her.
Speaker 2: I didn't know that there were six Australians on the
Speaker 2: Titanic either, did.
Speaker 1: I, which is where the idea came from. Because my
Speaker 1: husband is a very successful author of great Australian history stories.
Speaker 2: Yes, and how many is he written.
Speaker 1: I think he's in his forties, forty plus books, I know.
Speaker 1: And the really annoying thing is he works incredibly hard
Speaker 1: on them. The research is enormous. But Pete has always
Speaker 1: written with such incredible ease. It just flows out of him.
Speaker 1: And he's quite poetic in his writing. He's like, you,
Speaker 1: you're an extraordinary writer. You have the most beautiful turn
Speaker 1: of phrase, and Pete is like that and so. But
Speaker 1: the history thing adds another dimension to oh really does?
Speaker 1: I mean? It was one thing to write my own memoir,
Speaker 1: but to disappear into the life of a woman from
Speaker 1: more than one hundred years ago was an extraordinary exercise
Speaker 1: that I'd never embarked upon before. But it's an idea
Speaker 1: I came up with for Pete because I was in
Speaker 1: the middle of the nightmare of the Trial and Pete
Speaker 1: was working on an upcoming book that he's got and
Speaker 1: a picture of the Titanic came up and he just
Speaker 1: said to me, isn't she a beauty? And I said,
Speaker 1: what are you talking about? And he showed me the
Speaker 1: picture and I said, oh, is that the Titanic? And
Speaker 1: he said, yes, isn't she a beauty? And I said
Speaker 1: she was probably not so pretty these days, But and
Speaker 1: I just thought about it for a second. I said,
Speaker 1: were there any Australians on the Titanic? And he said,
Speaker 1: I've got no idea. And I said, I don't either,
Speaker 1: And how do we not know whether there are any
Speaker 1: is Like, there might be an amazing story there for
Speaker 1: one of your upcome books. You really should check it
Speaker 1: out anyway, and he agreed. A couple of days went by,
Speaker 1: I asked him, you know, if he'd done anything, and
Speaker 1: he hadn't, and I thought, hmm, I've got a computer.
Speaker 1: I've heard of that thing called the internet. I should
Speaker 1: check and see. And I discovered that there were six
Speaker 1: Australian born passengers and crew on the Titanic and only
Speaker 1: one survived. This twenty eight year old kick ass nurse,
Speaker 1: youngest of five children, grew up in Hoylton, an hour
Speaker 1: and a half north of Adelaide. She was a champion
Speaker 1: horsewoman and she used to love to row on the
Speaker 1: Murray River.
Speaker 2: And when I read that, but I thought, by the
Speaker 2: way a pursuit that a lot of women engaged, So
Speaker 2: she was very unusual. Yes, love of horse riding in
Speaker 2: her physical pursuit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, very athletic. And when I read
Speaker 1: the words, there was very little on the internet about her.
Speaker 1: You know, she only ever gave two interviews, and it
Speaker 1: said that Evelyn was so good that she wanted to
Speaker 1: challenge herself when she rode on the River Murray at
Speaker 1: murray Bridge in South Australia. And so you know a
Speaker 1: lot of the rowers would row with the current and
Speaker 1: when the title flow turned, they would row back to
Speaker 1: shore with the current. Evelyn didn't want to do that.
Speaker 1: Evelyn wanted to row against the tide right. And when
Speaker 1: I read those words, a young woman who wrote against
Speaker 1: the tide, I just thought, how many Australian women women
Speaker 1: feel like they are constantly rowing against the tide?
Speaker 2: So you say, how many Australian women did Lisa Wilkinson
Speaker 2: feel that?
Speaker 1: Sure? Yeah, And I just the fact that she was
Speaker 1: doing this one hundred years ago. And the more I
Speaker 1: looked into it, I thought, oh my god, the Titanic
Speaker 1: actually happened during the rise of the Suffragettes. And this
Speaker 1: was a young girl who, unlike her two older sisters,
Speaker 1: didn't want to get married, didn't necessarily want to have children,
Speaker 1: or you know, she wasn't sort of saying that as
Speaker 1: there's my goal in life. She decided she wanted to
Speaker 1: be a nurse. She wanted to give back, so she
Speaker 1: went to train at Adelaide Hospital and while she was
Speaker 1: at Adelaide Hospital. A woman, a patient needed to go
Speaker 1: back to the UK and she needed a nurse to
Speaker 1: accompany her.
Speaker 2: Yes offered the gigs when they'd have a companion.
Speaker 1: Yes offered Evelyn the gig, and Evelyn thought, I now
Speaker 1: get to see the world. So she got to London
Speaker 1: and she thought, this is the life for me. So
Speaker 1: she applied to be a nurse stewardess on cruise ships
Speaker 1: and she couldn't believe her luck. And in the middle
Speaker 1: of it all meets a handsome ship's doctor, William Abel James.
Speaker 1: They become engaged and the two of them hear about
Speaker 1: the Titanic, which is launching in April of nineteen twelve,
Speaker 1: and they both apply. They are both successful, but with
Speaker 1: a few days to go, William is told sorry, you're
Speaker 1: not going to go on the Titanic. You're going on
Speaker 1: the Macedonia, which is traveling to Sydney, and so Evelyn
Speaker 1: sailed alone.
Speaker 2: Now this book I wept when I read it, particularly
Speaker 2: the I mean basically my education about the Titanic. I
Speaker 2: don't know if you know they've made a movie.
Speaker 1: I've heard.
Speaker 2: I bet you were like me.
Speaker 1: I thought, oh yeah, I know. The Titanic story. I've
Speaker 1: seen what James Cameron did I have your friend, Yeah, yes,
Speaker 1: I've seen the docos. You know, we all know the
Speaker 1: Titanic story. And you know why we do, because it's
Speaker 1: widely believed that the three best known words in the
Speaker 1: English language are God, Coca cola, and Titanic.
Speaker 2: Who said that, that's bizarre, it's widely reported. Well, I
Speaker 2: want your sources. There's a lot of sources in here.
Speaker 1: Here's the thing that I couldn't believe when I was
Speaker 1: going through the process of researching this, you know, sitting
Speaker 1: at home, sitting in cafes, writing it. And I wasn't
Speaker 1: telling a lot of people that I was writing the
Speaker 1: story because I just thought, how oners has this story
Speaker 1: Laine idol for over a century? That this story has
Speaker 1: never been properly told, and lay it on top of that.
Speaker 1: Once I started going back and watching movies. You know,
Speaker 1: there was a wonderful one in the nineteen fifties called
Speaker 1: A Night to Remember, and I remember that was the
Speaker 1: first time I ever cried watching a movie because the
Speaker 1: heartbreak of this story. It's an old black and white
Speaker 1: and I was a teenager when I first saw it.
Speaker 1: The heartbreaking stories in the Titanic, and I do tell
Speaker 1: quite a few of them, you know, the ones that
Speaker 1: really kind of sat with me when I was doing
Speaker 1: the research. But one of the things I realized is
Speaker 1: all of the documentaries, all of the movies, all of
Speaker 1: the books have always been told by men. This story
Speaker 1: has never been told through the female lens. And yet
Speaker 1: this happened during the rise of the suffragettes, and there
Speaker 1: were so many incredible women on that boat, and a
Speaker 1: lot of them fighting for women to get the right
Speaker 1: to vote. All these pieces of the puzzle started fitting together.
Speaker 1: Where was the second place in the world where women
Speaker 1: got the right to vote Evelyn's home state, South Australia
Speaker 1: they got it in eighteen ninety four. Was New Zealand first.
Speaker 1: New Zealand was first, and you know, in first class
Speaker 1: in particular, because that's where the educated women were who
Speaker 1: had careers. There were poets, philosophers, businesswomen, millionairesses, extraordinary fashion designers.
Speaker 2: The role like the role call of people.
Speaker 1: Yes, the highest paid actress movie actress in the world
Speaker 1: was in first class, Dorothy Perkins, and she in fact
Speaker 1: made a movie four weeks after the sinking of the
Speaker 1: Titanic she wrote it, directed it, did everything, and played herself,
Speaker 1: and that was released four weeks after the sinking, four
Speaker 1: weeks she.
Speaker 2: Barely would have recovered from our hypothermia.
Speaker 1: Well, she even wore the same outfit she had on
Speaker 1: that she was rescued in, and it haunted her for
Speaker 1: the rest of her life.
Speaker 2: Okay, So I don't know if you've wondered this or not.
Speaker 2: I imagine that you have because you were so immersed in this,
Speaker 2: and this did not come to you easily. It's a
Speaker 2: formidable work. Were you drawn to the story of Titanic
Speaker 2: and drawn to the story of Evelyn because of what
Speaker 2: you were going through at the time, do you think?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 1: But what it did give me. I mean, what I've
Speaker 1: done throughout my career is if there's a common denominator
Speaker 1: through magazines and through television and radio, it's as a journalist,
Speaker 1: you're a conduit to helping other people tell their stories,
Speaker 1: and to find this amazing woman whose story had never
Speaker 1: been properly told, and to immerse myself to the point
Speaker 1: where I was going to be able to finally have
Speaker 1: this woman's story told, celebrate her heroism, her desire to
Speaker 1: always give back, to tell the incredible love story that
Speaker 1: happened between her and William, which ultimately will break people's
Speaker 1: heart with the way it all finishes. So I was
Speaker 1: drawn to it because it gave me an enormous project
Speaker 1: to work. And I've never worked on a project this
Speaker 1: big in my life. You know, in magazines they came
Speaker 1: out every month, Television came out every day. So to
Speaker 1: work on something, you know, with all of my heart
Speaker 1: and all of my energy and bring all of my
Speaker 1: research and journalistic skills to it was again, it was
Speaker 1: such a privilege.
Speaker 2: Because also I think in circumstances in which your back
Speaker 2: is against the wall, work can be such a salvation.
Speaker 1: Oh completely, you know, just I was utterly immerged in
Speaker 1: her story.
Speaker 2: Coming up more of my conversation with Lisa Wilkinson Evelyn Marsden.
Speaker 2: I'm putting her to one side, and I want to
Speaker 2: know when you had to get into the lifeboat. What
Speaker 2: period when you're in the troubles, were you like, Okay,
Speaker 2: I've got to get off this ship. What was yours?
Speaker 1: I couldn't really get off the ship, you know, it
Speaker 1: was a ship that was sailing and I had to row.
Speaker 1: I just had to row. And how was that challenging,
Speaker 1: but I got through it. What did you learn about yourself? Then?
Speaker 1: That I have reserves of patients because I knew that
Speaker 1: this was going to be a very long process. I
Speaker 1: can be quite forgiving ah, because I didn't I really
Speaker 1: didn't want to bottle things up. I didn't want to
Speaker 1: get sick during all of this. I mean through all
Speaker 1: of this. I mean, perspective is a wonderful thing. I've
Speaker 1: had a few friends who've been going through enormous health challenges,
Speaker 1: one of whom I've lost, And you know, I had
Speaker 1: a job to do. I had no choice but to
Speaker 1: go through all of this and come out the other side.
Speaker 2: And also it mattered to you. It had to matter
Speaker 2: to you because much like Evelyn saving her life by
Speaker 2: having learned to row, you were hardwired because of what
Speaker 2: you had done those twelve years of waking up with
Speaker 2: today where you've got to wake up whistling doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: What's going on.
Speaker 2: So your muscles for positivity, and I do believe that
Speaker 2: they're muscles were trained, very well trained. But even so,
Speaker 2: you got such a terrible kicking that it hurt many
Speaker 2: of us who were not a part of it and
Speaker 2: were not privy to it and we're not whatever, but
Speaker 2: could feel it.
Speaker 1: And I saw that through messages that people such as
Speaker 1: yourself sent through and they meant the world, the absolute
Speaker 1: world because often, and you were one of them, I
Speaker 1: would get messages from people on just another day, just
Speaker 1: checking in to see how I am. And I will
Speaker 1: never ever forget the kindness of that.
Speaker 2: Did you ever think and I can't imagine that it's
Speaker 2: a part of your makeup? But did you ever think
Speaker 2: this is too hard?
Speaker 1: Oh? Sure, yeah, plenty of times. But there's there was
Speaker 1: no alternative.
Speaker 2: If you said that to Pete, what would he say?
Speaker 1: I can't say that I remember the specifics of it,
Speaker 1: but you know, I'm very fortunate that that guy I
Speaker 1: met in the makeup room back in May of nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety one, you know, has been a rock right throughout
Speaker 1: my marriage, and never more so than over recent years.
Speaker 1: You know, he's just he's made a very strong stuff.
Speaker 1: Petros rock.
Speaker 2: Really it's in the narrying. Yeah, I think you're right,
Speaker 2: so knowing what you know now and on the cusp
Speaker 2: of you being a historical author.
Speaker 1: Wow, I hadn't thought about suppose I am.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you are when you think about success, which as
Speaker 2: much as you are quite modest about you know, you
Speaker 2: kind of act like you were just kind of bumping
Speaker 2: into the furniture and you were just a girl who
Speaker 2: got lucky. There's much more to it than that, obviously.
Speaker 2: But when you look at the definition of success now,
Speaker 2: how do you define it?
Speaker 1: Gee, that's a huge question. Probably living a life that
Speaker 1: you know personally has meaning that makes a contribution and
Speaker 1: to live authentically.
Speaker 2: Has that changed? Do you think? I mean, you've got
Speaker 2: more time now. Sometimes I think when you're in the
Speaker 2: cut and thrust of a job, a big job, you
Speaker 2: don't have the time to be analyzing what's going on
Speaker 2: in your own life. But did you did anything change
Speaker 2: upon reflection with time about how you live or how
Speaker 2: you want to live? No?
Speaker 1: Not really. I just you know, I'm getting older now,
Speaker 1: so I'm very aware of the passing of time and
Speaker 1: wanting the way I spend my time to have meaning
Speaker 1: and to live with an open heart.
Speaker 2: To everybody. You said you're very forgiving. You learned that
Speaker 2: that was an interesting thing. Who have you had to
Speaker 2: forgive people who.
Speaker 1: Probably made some bad decisions along the way because of
Speaker 1: the stress of everything that was going on. And I
Speaker 1: understand that you know, when you when you're under a
Speaker 1: lot of pressure, people can make bad choices.
Speaker 2: And if your dad saw you, now, what would he say.
Speaker 1: I think he'd just say I'm very proud of you,
Speaker 1: and the hug would have lasted for about ten minutes.
Speaker 2: And be like you married him.
Speaker 1: Well. I always rejected the footballing millieure that Dad was
Speaker 1: surrounded by when I was a teenager, because all of
Speaker 1: my girlfriends were dating the guys in dad's football team.
Speaker 1: Mum was doing the sospoge quite popular, it turns out,
Speaker 1: and so I always rejected it. But I would sit
Speaker 1: with Dad and watch the Wallabies weirdly, and of course
Speaker 1: Pete would have been one of the Wallabies who was
Speaker 1: playing when I used to watch them on TV. But
Speaker 1: you know, on the day we got married, which was
Speaker 1: nine months after we met, like we were in a
Speaker 1: serious hurry. And so I'm walking down the aisle on
Speaker 1: the arm of my older brother towards a Wallaby and
Speaker 1: there as best man is the World Cup winning wallabye
Speaker 1: captain Nick varr Jones. I just looked to the sky
Speaker 1: and whispered to Dad, you got me. I've finally given in.
Speaker 2: Beauty in surrender.
Speaker 1: He's a good man.
Speaker 2: If you could project something for yourself going into the future.
Speaker 1: See, I've never planned ahead ever, and it's not a
Speaker 1: case of just you know, thinking, taking good luck for granted.
Speaker 1: But I also believe in making space and that gives
Speaker 1: you the freedom to make hopefully wise decisions. And right
Speaker 1: now I'm just completely focused on Evelyn. I really want
Speaker 1: Australia to get to know Evelyn. And somebody said to
Speaker 1: me the other day, you know, if Evelyn had been
Speaker 1: a man, Australia would have known about him, and I said,
Speaker 1: that's true, and then I said, but hang on, no,
Speaker 1: Only twenty percent of the men on Titanic survived, and
Speaker 1: as it turned out, there were only two ships doctors
Speaker 1: on the Titanic, So if William had been one of
Speaker 1: those doctors, William would have died.
Speaker 2: The men and the men built it, and the men,
Speaker 2: you know, sunk it. But it was the same men
Speaker 2: who said women and children first.
Speaker 1: Absolutely I can, and that has been a really interesting
Speaker 1: line that I've had to walk, you know, from a
Speaker 1: purely feminist point of view, because you cannot take away
Speaker 1: from the extraordinary heroism of those who, in order to
Speaker 1: save others lost their own lives, and that was overwhelmingly men,
Speaker 1: no question, and it was women and children first.
Speaker 2: Yes, And it's like a metaphor for also the lines
Speaker 2: that we straddle as feminists in the modern world is
Speaker 2: that equality doesn't mean that we can't avail ourselves of
Speaker 2: the strengths that men have, that we don't have physical
Speaker 2: strength or valor or whatever. It's not that women don't
Speaker 2: have them necessarily, but it's true that men have got
Speaker 2: them in different proportions often.
Speaker 1: Yeah. True. There's a wonderful story in that. It's one
Speaker 1: of my absolute favorites because you know, I've tried to
Speaker 1: elevate wherever i could in equal measure. I hope the
Speaker 1: heroism of many of the women who are on board,
Speaker 1: but also their kick assedness, which I know is not
Speaker 1: a word, but I've just made it a word. Because
Speaker 1: there's this amazing couple who arrive, William and Lucy Carter,
Speaker 1: he is heir to a coal mining fortune dynasty, and
Speaker 1: his wife Lucille, and they have two children, also called
Speaker 1: William and Lucille, because that's what rich people do, they
Speaker 1: create children in their own image. And they arrive they're
Speaker 1: heading to New York. Obviously, and they arrive with everything
Speaker 1: but the kitchen sink, a coterie of servants, and a
Speaker 1: bunch of polo ponies. Yes, so you know they're well
Speaker 1: and truly in first class. And on the night they
Speaker 1: hit the iceberg, William wakes Lucille up and says, quick,
Speaker 1: we've hit an iceberg. Get the kids dressed. I'll meet
Speaker 1: you up on deck. So she does exactly that dutifully,
Speaker 1: and she gets up on deck and cannot find William anywhere,
Speaker 1: and she keeps resisting getting into the lifeboats because she
Speaker 1: has to find her great love, William. And eventually the
Speaker 1: ship is so close to sinking she has no choice.
Speaker 1: She is ordered with the two children into the lifeboat.
Speaker 1: And so, like so many moments of desperation where couples
Speaker 1: are being torn apart, the men have to stay on
Speaker 1: the ship, the women get in the lifeboats. She eventually
Speaker 1: the rescue boat is the Carpathia. She arrives at the Carpathia.
Speaker 1: So often, wives who think they've lost their husbands are
Speaker 1: hoping against hope that maybe they've been rescued by another
Speaker 1: boat or a lifeboat, and they might see them on
Speaker 1: the Carpathia. And she's pulled up to the top of
Speaker 1: the Carpathian. She looks around, hoping that she's going to
Speaker 1: find William. And she looks up and there is William
Speaker 1: leaning casually against a railing, smoking a cigarette, and he
Speaker 1: takes one look at her and says, I've just had
Speaker 1: a jolly good breakfast, before adding I thought you and
Speaker 1: the children would never make it. And how do we
Speaker 1: know that he said those words, because those exact words
Speaker 1: were quoted in the divorce papers that Lucile filed the
Speaker 1: following you coward, you awful, awful man, and it came
Speaker 1: to like that he was more than likely one of
Speaker 1: the men who dressed as a woman and got into
Speaker 1: a lifeboat. So I just I love that she divorced
Speaker 1: him after that act of complete and utter cowardice.
Speaker 2: Well, I think that that's probably not an uncommon thing
Speaker 2: when your feet have been held to the fire and
Speaker 2: you've seen how your life partner responds under that pressure.
Speaker 1: And that's the other thing. You know, It's been such
Speaker 1: an interesting intellectual exercise to go through writing Evelyn's story,
Speaker 1: because you do think, how would I act? I don't
Speaker 1: think until we've all had our feet to the fire
Speaker 1: that we really know how we would react. Would we
Speaker 1: be heroic? Would be would we be so terrified? What
Speaker 1: would that final moment of death had been like for
Speaker 1: all of these people? I mean many times while I
Speaker 1: was writing this, I was crying the stories of magnificence
Speaker 1: and absolute utter tragedy, particularly when it came to some
Speaker 1: of the children.
Speaker 2: I wanted to You've reminded me that one of the
Speaker 2: one of the characters that you introduce us to, Violet
Speaker 2: jessp when are they on the lifeboats and they're watching
Speaker 2: the Titanic and the unsinkable sink extraordinary, watching the rows
Speaker 2: of lights yes slowly go out? Yeah stick, And she says,
Speaker 2: for a fraction of a second, my heart stood still,
Speaker 2: As is often the case when faith hitherto unshaken, faith
Speaker 2: gets its first setback.
Speaker 1: She was a beautiful writer. She wrote her memoir and
Speaker 1: it wasn't published until the nineteen nineties. One of her
Speaker 1: relatives made sure that it became a book, and that
Speaker 1: was one of the books you know, that I've drawn
Speaker 1: on because she was so eloquent in her prose about
Speaker 1: what she experienced, and she was a fellow stewardess with Evelyn.
Speaker 1: They'd worked together on the Olympic, which was the sister
Speaker 1: ship to the Titanic, because of her eloquent description of
Speaker 1: hitherto unshaken faith? Was there a time when your faith
Speaker 1: was shaken? You're talking about in the last couple of years.
Speaker 2: Or even before then. You know that even though your
Speaker 2: pivot from you know today to the project was quite
Speaker 2: an elegant one, that's still that that hurts that stuff
Speaker 2: because it's they're colleagues, but they're also friends, and the
Speaker 2: bosses are you know.
Speaker 1: I think we should separate the bosses and the friends.
Speaker 1: Well maybe, but because you'd had you know, everyone loves
Speaker 1: the Golden Child, which you were until you were quite
Speaker 1: sure how to respond to that.
Speaker 2: Well, until you weren't so well, I was a point
Speaker 2: at which you were shaken by I.
Speaker 1: Certainly disappointed, like deeply disappointed, But I just and I
Speaker 1: think again, this comes from my father. You count your blessings.
Speaker 1: You know what, what doesn't shake us makes us stronger.
Speaker 2: Don't look at me like I don't look at me
Speaker 2: like that.
Speaker 1: I know exactly what you're doing because I've done it myself.
Speaker 1: Well I don't.
Speaker 2: I'm just I'm just I think you've been through a
Speaker 2: lot and I think that it's like your tetris blocks
Speaker 2: are very well arranged, and I'm happy for that for you.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 2: Kay.
Speaker 1: It's I've been on a huge learning curve, but you
Speaker 1: know one I think I'm stronger for. You know, I
Speaker 1: know who counts in my life. I have seen enormous kindness.
Speaker 1: I've seen the best of people, and I've seen the
Speaker 1: worst of people. And you can't say that I'm not
Speaker 1: still learning.
Speaker 2: When you say you've seen the worst? What did that
Speaker 2: look like?
Speaker 1: Oh, disappointment?
Speaker 2: Were you prepared for that or sometimes not?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, I just find dwelling on the negative a
Speaker 1: real waste of energy that you know, I had to
Speaker 1: have energy and I couldn't dwell on things. I just
Speaker 1: had to keep moving forward.
Speaker 2: But you've got to take the lesson as well, you know,
Speaker 2: the old when someone shows you who they are, believe
Speaker 2: believe them, And sometimes it means rethinking people that you've
Speaker 2: known for a long time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm definitely older and wiser as a result
Speaker 1: of the last few years.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, your travails have been good news for readers.
Speaker 1: I hope. So I really, you know, as I said,
Speaker 1: I really fell in love with Evelyn, and I really
Speaker 1: hope that readers do too. And I'm thrilled that you
Speaker 1: enjoyed it so much.
Speaker 2: I do think more than you do that you were
Speaker 2: drawn to her because of the rowing against the tide.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I.
Speaker 2: Heard those words very early.
Speaker 1: On in looking at her story. And I'll tell you
Speaker 1: one of those weird moments that you know, just led
Speaker 1: to I now have to do this story because Pete.
Speaker 1: Actually I put a little dot point memo to Pete
Speaker 1: once I looked into her story, and I said to him,
Speaker 1: you've got to go to your publisher with this, because
Speaker 1: this story is extraordinary and no one's done it. And
Speaker 1: he went to the publisher, and you know, his beautiful
Speaker 1: female publisher, Vanessa came back to me and said, Lisa,
Speaker 1: everyone here is talking about this idea that you've had
Speaker 1: for Pete. I don't think this is a Pete book.
Speaker 1: I think this is a you book. And I said, Vanessa,
Speaker 1: I can't do this. I've never written a book like
Speaker 1: this before. The amount of research alone will be huge,
Speaker 1: and she said, I just want you to sit with
Speaker 1: it and have a think, because I think this would
Speaker 1: be an incredible project for you to work on. And
Speaker 1: I said, look, I just you know, my energies are
Speaker 1: elsewhere at the moment. Literally three hours later, news of
Speaker 1: the Ocean Gate submersible going missing broke around the world,
Speaker 1: and Vanessa called me and she said, have you seen
Speaker 1: the news? And I said, yeah, I think Evelyn and
Speaker 1: I are on a journey.
Speaker 2: And it starts and is she the person that said
Speaker 2: I think Evelyn was sent to save you?
Speaker 1: She said it to me a couple of months ago.
Speaker 2: Did she did Evylne save you?
Speaker 1: She gave me a focus that I didn't even know
Speaker 1: I needed. And I have been everywhere the last couple
Speaker 1: of years, and I didn't want to read about myself anymore,
Speaker 1: and I'm sure others didn't either. And to be able
Speaker 1: to not focus on me, not feel sorry for me,
Speaker 1: to be elevated by this woman's otherwise unknown magnificence. Just
Speaker 1: every day I worked on this project, I just felt
Speaker 1: good and I felt like I was maybe I was
Speaker 1: meant to be given this space to work on this project.
Speaker 1: And you know, the funny thing is when you know
Speaker 1: we're launching it April fourteen, which is the one hundred
Speaker 1: and fourteenth anniversary of the Titanic hitting the iceberg, twenty
Speaker 1: minutes to midnight, and it sank a twenty past two
Speaker 1: on the fifteenth of April, so we're launching it on
Speaker 1: the fourteenth. And Pete said to me a couple of
Speaker 1: months ago.
Speaker 2: At midnight, I hope that's too macabre. What's to launch
Speaker 2: it at the time? No, no, no, no, no no no.
Speaker 1: We just you know, we wanted to mark with respect
Speaker 1: to the anniversary of the sinking. And Pete said to me,
Speaker 1: who you're going to get to launch it, because we're
Speaker 1: launching it at the Maritime Museum. And I said, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I sort of don't know any boty people.
Speaker 1: And I said, I sort of feel like I need
Speaker 1: maybe a woman from South Australia who's always wrote against
Speaker 1: the tide. Oh my god, Julia Gillard. And I emailed
Speaker 1: her and said, I don't know if you've ever heard
Speaker 1: of this woman, Evelyn Marsden, but this is who she
Speaker 1: is and I've written a book about She got right
Speaker 1: back to me and said, Lisa, how on earth do
Speaker 1: we not know this woman's story. Of course I'll launch
Speaker 1: it for you. So another woman who's wrote against the tide,
Speaker 1: well that's going to be quiet and even I'm very
Speaker 1: much honored that she's agreed to do that.
Speaker 2: It's amazing. I hope that the rest of your the
Speaker 2: cruise of your life, you're.
Speaker 1: Going to get all poet.
Speaker 2: Are you these straits of all moons that you're unencumbered,
Speaker 2: thank you by the troubles of the past.
Speaker 1: Are you tired or invigorated? I'm invigorated by the boy.
Speaker 1: I really am tired of the other who isn't far out.
Speaker 2: Even as I say that, I don't even know how
Speaker 2: many incarnations there are of it, but it's honestly like
Speaker 2: the marrow being leached out of your bones. Lisa Wilkinson,
Speaker 2: good luck to you and to all who's sailing, which
Speaker 2: are believe. It's just it's only one that just got
Speaker 2: really creepy at the end. What about you talking about
Speaker 2: waiting for Pete to get a wrecked?
Speaker 1: Well, it's how long did that take?
Speaker 2: By the way, between that first afternoon tea?
Speaker 1: What until we got married? No? Oh, you're you're somewhere
Speaker 1: else completely of your memoir.
Speaker 2: You're like, if you meet him, if you finally meet
Speaker 2: him and then suddenly three months later you're engaged, I'm like,
Speaker 2: what happened in between?
Speaker 1: Just you know, a lot of conversations late into the night,
Speaker 1: and you know, I mean, you know what it's like
Speaker 1: when you when you meet someone where you just feel
Speaker 1: like where have you been? And it just happens so
Speaker 1: easily that you know, we we sort of didn't leave
Speaker 1: each other side. It's lucky, isn't it so lucky? Just
Speaker 1: a few frogs? Yeah, you know, you sort of you
Speaker 1: work out what you don't want. But I certainly didn't
Speaker 1: go into that relationship with a checklist.
Speaker 2: No. And also you don't know, you know, Nancy Reagan,
Speaker 2: he said, you don't know what a woman's made of.
Speaker 2: She's like a tea bag till you put her in
Speaker 2: hot water.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah.
Speaker 2: But also a relationship is like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because when you fall in love, it's good times.
Speaker 2: Very few people fall in love in bad times. It's
Speaker 2: always good times. Because you're falling in love, you don't
Speaker 2: know what's going to happen, or really necessarily what that
Speaker 2: person is made of until you know the shit gets going.
Speaker 1: I got a pretty good idea early on that, you know,
Speaker 1: Pete comes from the most incredible family, and to be
Speaker 1: welcomed so completely into that family, you know, I thought
Speaker 1: I was on pretty solid ground from the beginning, But
Speaker 1: you know what I've been through the last couple of years,
Speaker 1: that certainly tests the marriage, because you're not always at
Speaker 1: your absolute best when you're being tested like that. So
Speaker 1: I'd probably say I tested him a little more than
Speaker 1: he tested me in recent times. And he was not
Speaker 1: for flinching, no notting him only strong.
Speaker 2: Oh I know where a couple of those are.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, we're never stronger in fact fully enough, he
Speaker 1: said to me the other day, he said, did you
Speaker 1: know that apparently you and I have split?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 1: Apparently there was something on social media saying, you know,
Speaker 1: sad news that we have split. And it's just it's
Speaker 1: an indication of how useless social media is that you know,
Speaker 1: I didn't even know that. Yeah. I was just like,
Speaker 1: did I miss something?
Speaker 2: That's right. There's a version of Lisa Wilkinson that most
Speaker 2: of think we know, But this conversation sits just outside
Speaker 2: of that, in a space that's a little quieter, a
Speaker 2: little more reflective, and probably a lot less certain. And
Speaker 2: maybe that's what stays with you, not the headlines or
Speaker 2: the moments that defined a career, but the idea that,
Speaker 2: even after decades of clarity and success, there's still room
Speaker 2: to question, to shift, and to begin again. We've linked
Speaker 2: the details of the Titanic story of Evelyn by Lisa
Speaker 2: Wilkinson in the show notes. Thank you for listening to
Speaker 2: No Filter. The executive producer of No Filter is Breed Player.
Speaker 2: The assistant producer is Coco Levine. Audio production and video
Speaker 2: editing by Josh Green. I am Kate Langbrook. I will
Speaker 2: see you next Monday for another incredible conversation.