WEBVTT - The Overnight Daycare ‘House Of Horror’ 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:08.160 Five year old Haley and seven year old Laura Jane 0:00:08.280 --> 0:00:11.320 are happily playing with toys at Bluemoor Family Daycare in 0:00:11.360 --> 0:00:15.320 Bateman's Bay on the New South Wales south coast. It's 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:18.840 a center that offers overnight services to parents and takes 0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:22.759 kids up to fourteen years old. It's pretty remote, run 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:27.280 from the family property of the only carer there, David Tuck. 0:00:29.160 --> 0:00:32.840 He's a jovial man in his thirties, charismatic and approachable, 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:36.720 and Haley and Lj's parents feel comfortable leaving their kids 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:42.080 in his home, but within hours Tuck will start grooming them. 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:46.319 They realize he has some pretty unusual rules, like an 0:00:46.320 --> 0:00:50.360 open door policy for the toilets and no underwear whilst sleeping. 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:55.880 The girls also quickly realize that every night someone sleeps 0:00:55.920 --> 0:00:59.880 in the big bed with him. Soon it's there to 0:01:00.720 --> 0:01:04.280 and at first they think it's special to be chosen lucky. 0:01:05.240 --> 0:01:09.319 It takes just one night for them to realize the truth. 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:16.600 I'm Jemma Bath and you're listening to True Crime Conversations, 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:21.080 a podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:24.480 to the people who know the most about them. A 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:28.240 warning this episode does involve discussion about child sexual abuse 0:01:28.480 --> 0:01:34.560 and suicide. Please take care while listening. For years, parents 0:01:34.640 --> 0:01:37.920 trusted David Tuck to look after their children at his 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:41.880 family day care service in Bateman's Bay. It's only now 0:01:42.400 --> 0:01:46.080 decades later that the extent of his horrific abuse is 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:49.720 being revealed, earning him the title of one of Australia's 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:54.320 worst pedophiles. He was aged between thirty two and thirty 0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:57.520 seven when he ran the center. Between nineteen ninety four 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:01.640 and nineteen ninety nine, it's believed he had more than 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:06.320 fifty five victims. He also had access to children across 0:02:06.360 --> 0:02:11.000 his career, running school holiday camps in youth detention, as 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:14.959 a gymnastics instructor, as a school bus driver for intellectually 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:19.080 disabled children, and as a career for intellectually disabled children. 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:22.400 He lived and worked across not just New South Wales, 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:28.519 but Victoria, Queensland, the Act and South Australia. The true 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:33.959 extent of his victims is unknown, partly because he died 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:37.280 in two thousand and one, just as police were starting 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:37.919 to catch. 0:02:37.720 --> 0:02:38.680 Up to him. 0:02:39.240 --> 0:02:42.560 This isn't just a story about Tuck and his crimes. 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:46.239 It's also about the failure of local authorities to take 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:51.880 allegations seriously. Our guests today are currently in court with 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:55.640 Urubadalla Local Council trying to hold them to account for 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:58.200 allowing him to operate in the first place and for 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:03.360 so long. The other big glaring failures is the fact 0:03:03.480 --> 0:03:07.760 David Tuck's name was suppressed and shrouded in silence for years. 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:11.639 That was changed in twenty twenty five thanks to legal 0:03:11.680 --> 0:03:15.680 blocks overcome by journalists and victims advocate Nina Fanel and 0:03:15.800 --> 0:03:19.639 news dot com do Au. Laura Jane and Hailey were 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:28.760 just two of TUX victims. This is their story. LJ. Hailey. 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:32.720 Thank you for joining me on True Crime Conversations. You 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:36.920 told your story publicly for the first time just last year. 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:41.000 Can you tell us about why and how you made 0:03:41.000 --> 0:03:46.760 that decision and what it's been like since sharing your story. 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:51.640 We made the decision to come forward in the media 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:55.440 because we had not been able to say our abusa's 0:03:55.840 --> 0:04:01.560 name for over twenty years. He and I had many 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:04.240 discussions about the fact that he'd never been named publicly 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:07.720 in the media, and we decided that it was time 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:11.400 we wanted to reclaim our story, and part of that 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:16.400 was naming him, not just for us, but for all 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:22.120 of his survivors, so that they'd never have to they'd 0:04:22.120 --> 0:04:24.920 never have to type his name into a Google search, 0:04:24.960 --> 0:04:26.080 and nothing came up. 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:30.040 To even be able to say his name. He had 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:31.000 to go to court, didn't you. 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:39.880 We didn't that there was some historical suppression orders which 0:04:40.240 --> 0:04:45.359 were lost, I guess in decades of no one speaking out. 0:04:46.279 --> 0:04:48.760 But the journalist that we worked with, Nina Fannel, was 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:53.719 able to navigate that and realize that, you know, they 0:04:53.760 --> 0:04:54.839 were no longer in place. 0:04:56.000 --> 0:04:57.760 What has it meant to be able to say the 0:04:57.839 --> 0:05:01.120 name David Tuck publicly? That made the difference that you 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:03.360 were hoping being able to say his name? 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:08.040 Definitely. I think since we did our first article around 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:13.520 twelve months ago, we've connected with numerous other victim survivors. 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:16.200 And this is not just from the childcare and the 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:20.000 experience that we had, but previous victim survivors of his 0:05:20.640 --> 0:05:24.479 as well. And I think that's huge for LJ and 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:28.159 I growing up. I mean, I know myself definitely tried 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:32.000 to at least read about or understand my own story 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:35.520 and understand if there were others involved, and it was 0:05:35.960 --> 0:05:39.680 not possible. So I think the closure that's hopefully given 0:05:40.360 --> 0:05:44.320 to others who maybe don't want to speak out themselves, 0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:47.440 but at least can understand that they're not alone and 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:50.640 there are others that are supporting them and understand what 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:56.240 happened with the childcare, what happened with him committing suicide. 0:05:56.560 --> 0:05:59.800 These are all things that unless you remained in this 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:04.200 or with a connection in that small town, that information 0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:08.120 just was not available to the wider community or to 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:10.760 the remainder of his victims. 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:13.880 Why why was none of that online? 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:19.000 As far as we can tell, and I guess from 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:21.560 speaking to Chris Graham, who was the editor of the 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:26.440 local newspaper at the time, is that essentially the council 0:06:26.680 --> 0:06:30.040 played a significant role in ensuring that his name wasn't 0:06:30.040 --> 0:06:34.440 mentioned in the paper and he wasn't publicly identified. As 0:06:34.480 --> 0:06:37.280 to why, I can't tell you exactly, but I can 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:39.760 tell you that it caused a lot of harm, and 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:44.039 it meant that many victim survivors, potentially up until last year, 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:47.000 didn't even know that he was dead. 0:06:47.440 --> 0:06:49.919 There's not even photos, is there. There's not like a 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:51.680 recognizable photo of him. 0:06:52.000 --> 0:06:55.440 That photo that you see in the newspaper is a 0:06:55.440 --> 0:06:58.720 photo that I happened to stumble across in my not 0:06:58.760 --> 0:07:02.560 even my mother, my grandmother's photo appens and it's just 0:07:02.720 --> 0:07:05.720 one random photo with him in the background. And we've 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:09.600 not only us but our current affair and Nina Fanel 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:12.160 searched high and low, and we have still not been 0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:12.880 able to locate a. 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:13.520 Photo of him. 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:18.040 To explain to listeners, it's a photo of LJ in 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:20.000 the foreground and then in the background there's a boat 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:22.360 and he's in it and it's not even his face. 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:25.160 It's kind of the back of hitting and almost a 0:07:25.200 --> 0:07:27.120 side profile, but you can't see anything. 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:30.000 He's literally in the background as far as you can go, Like, 0:07:30.120 --> 0:07:33.720 he's just a tiny little like blur on a boat. 0:07:33.840 --> 0:07:36.680 Really, and that's the only photo you can find. 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:40.640 Well, yeah, and let's put it this way. We are 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:43.800 aware of close family friends. We are aware of family 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:48.000 members that we personally as well as others assisting us, 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:51.080 have reached out to directly that will not share photos 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:56.440 of him. The police department will not release any mugshots 0:07:56.520 --> 0:08:00.000 of him. Now he was charged with crime, so yeah, 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:03.800 there must be mugshots that exist. There is a large 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:09.320 group of people still protecting his identity for some reason 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:11.160 to this day, the. 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:13.560 Mind boggles as to why we are protecting this person. 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:17.960 And I think it's just there's no understanding maybe from 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:20.400 the families, as to why we need this picture now. 0:08:20.600 --> 0:08:23.560 But you know, I guess to make it clear, not 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:26.320 every one of his victim survivors will have known his 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:30.720 name or his full name. Now putting that image out there, 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:33.520 and we know that he abused children as young as 0:08:33.559 --> 0:08:37.240 two years old. Now that putting his face out there 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:40.240 and connecting it with his name once again gives every 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:44.280 one of his victims that opportunity to go, oh, my goodness, 0:08:44.720 --> 0:08:46.880 that is the man. That is the man that harmed me, 0:08:47.640 --> 0:08:51.320 and they can then from their understand it, you know 0:08:51.440 --> 0:08:55.120 he is dead. We have named him and identified him. 0:08:55.160 --> 0:08:58.080 It's just I think for us that really big missing 0:08:58.120 --> 0:09:02.240 piece of the puzzle, calling everyone what this guy looks like. 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:05.640 He had a victim survivor reach out and she told 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:08.400 me that every year around the same time she would 0:09:08.400 --> 0:09:11.200 do a search. She didn't have like a name, she 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:15.280 just had a few key identifiers, and every year she 0:09:15.320 --> 0:09:18.360 would try and find out details. And then because the 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:20.920 first article came out, she was able to do her 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:23.920 annual search and have a name. 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:26.280 Wow, and a lot of this. 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:28.920 Was for me. 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:29.760 That's what it was like. 0:09:29.800 --> 0:09:31.960 When I was eighteen, I went back to Bateman's Bay 0:09:32.040 --> 0:09:35.120 to try and find an information to meet with other 0:09:35.200 --> 0:09:36.199 victim survivors. 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:38.160 It was from there that I was. 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:41.440 Able to get like newspaper clippings and start to understand 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:45.480 the extent one of the abuse and the amount of victims, 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:48.080 but two just how hidden this had all been. 0:09:48.120 --> 0:09:48.640 And like the. 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:53.480 By him not being named and there being no photos 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:57.160 and no discussions, this sort of just disappeared. He just 0:09:57.200 --> 0:09:59.679 disappeared from the face of the earth. And no, I've 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:02.439 had survivors that have come forward that are as old 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:05.040 as my parents. So he's been doing this a really 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:09.400 long time. And that's why, you know, ultimately his name 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:12.559 being the media is so important because even if those 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:15.920 people don't come forward, they might have a tiny sense 0:10:15.960 --> 0:10:19.160 of closure. I know that there is indeed people out 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:23.000 there fighting for justice for all of David Tuck's victim survivors. 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:27.360 Let's go back to the start and tell your story. 0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:32.360 When did you both start going to this daycare and 0:10:32.840 --> 0:10:35.840 how much care were you in. Were you there multiple 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:38.400 days a week, multiple nights a week, what did the 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:39.199 care kind of. 0:10:39.120 --> 0:10:42.480 Look like I was seven, so I was quite a lot. 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:45.439 My mum was a shift worker, so I spent a 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:48.600 lot of time there after school, before school, on the 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:50.800 weekends and in the evenings. 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:54.640 And do you remember what it looked like, what the 0:10:54.679 --> 0:10:56.320 property looked like, what the house looked like. 0:10:57.360 --> 0:10:58.040 Yeah, I do. 0:10:58.840 --> 0:11:02.000 I remember, like I was there yesterday, And also when 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:04.600 I've made trips back to Bateman's Bay, I've driven out 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:06.640 to the property just to make sure it was real. 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:09.760 But yeah, I could remember exactly what it was like 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:13.200 to walk up to the front stairs, where the rooms were, 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:17.440 where the bathroom was, the backyard looked like. And I 0:11:17.480 --> 0:11:19.640 think the thing that stuck with me and Haley and 0:11:19.720 --> 0:11:22.559 I have had this conversation is just how small it was. 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:25.640 Last year, Hailey was able to find some photos on 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:27.599 real estate dot Com of the property. 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:29.480 And it was just so small. 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:34.360 And it's crazy to me that any type of regulatory 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:37.000 body walked into that place and said this is a 0:11:37.040 --> 0:11:39.520 suitable place for twelve twelve or more children. 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:43.720 Twelve or more kids, that's how many were there at 0:11:43.760 --> 0:11:44.120 a time. 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:48.680 Well, this is I guess. Part of the information we've 0:11:48.760 --> 0:11:50.960 now have to find out is he wasn't meant to 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:53.560 have that many children there at any one time. But 0:11:54.559 --> 0:11:58.040 any person who was attending the center, whether a parent 0:11:58.320 --> 0:12:01.240 or somebody that was doing checks or you know, the 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:05.840 children themselves, knew that on quite a number of occasions, 0:12:06.280 --> 0:12:10.480 he was frequently over the allowable numbers of children he 0:12:10.640 --> 0:12:14.000 was meant to have in his care. And you know, 0:12:14.080 --> 0:12:18.200 even the property itself, the house was tiny, you know, 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:22.920 one single bathroom, two very small rooms, not enough beds 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:27.120 for the children that were staying overnight, but also a 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:31.440 very large dam that was completely unfenced on the property 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:36.200 that at least one child that I know of, fell into, 0:12:36.679 --> 0:12:42.439 thankfully was pulled out without any harm. But to Lj's point, 0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:46.320 the property itself was not something that should ever have 0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:50.600 been approved to allow children in a care facility to 0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:53.560 be attending. It wasn't a safe property, let alone the 0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:55.080 man running it being a safe person. 0:12:56.360 --> 0:12:59.400 Do you remember on the surface when you first went 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:04.000 was it was their activities? What was the pool? 0:13:05.040 --> 0:13:05.360 For me? 0:13:06.400 --> 0:13:08.280 I had gone to a couple of different primary schools 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:09.920 and Batemans based, so there were kids I went to 0:13:09.960 --> 0:13:14.160 school with, and you know, like there were familiar faces. 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:16.520 There were so many kids. The yard was big, there 0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:19.960 were toys, there was TV. We could watch whatever movies 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:20.400 we wanted. 0:13:20.440 --> 0:13:21.600 I remember we would. 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:26.880 Watch like Titanic and ah, there was another movie can Greece, 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:29.840 you know, And I didn't have a VCR at home, 0:13:30.280 --> 0:13:33.440 So being able to sit and watch those things that 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:35.640 have access to things that I might not have had 0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:39.080 was a big pool, you know. And it's not like 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:43.760 back then, you know, center daycare was really unaffordable, and 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:47.480 family daycare was always a preferred option, particularly in small towns. 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:50.320 So when you walked in and you've seen all of 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:53.960 these other kids, people that you know, children that you recognized, 0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:56.640 there was no reason to think, even for a moment 0:13:56.720 --> 0:13:57.600 that it was unsafe. 0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:01.080 And it was a necessity, I guess. You know, for 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:06.560 most all families there was low income families with multiple 0:14:06.640 --> 0:14:12.280 children typically and they were working, so you know, similar 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:15.360 to LJ would be shift working or you know, hospitality 0:14:15.400 --> 0:14:19.080 workers that needed that extended hours care that was being 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:23.560 offered rather than your standard after school care, you know, 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:26.600 and your sort of daytime childcare that was that was 0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:29.280 the necessity for both most families that were attending the. 0:14:29.240 --> 0:14:32.560 Center, which even nowadays is hard to find to find 0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:37.720 kind of affordable childcare for evenings and weekends and those 0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:41.440 kinds of hours. You know, it is hard to find 0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:42.600 in Australia. 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:43.960 Basically non existent. 0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:47.680 I mean my partner and I were looking at, you know, 0:14:47.720 --> 0:14:50.840 getting a baby setter for a night out, you know, 0:14:50.920 --> 0:14:52.800 to go to the movies or at shel or dinner 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:54.880 and three hundred dollars, you. 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:57.080 Know, three hundred dollars. 0:14:57.480 --> 0:14:59.440 You know, you're getting a private nanny or you're getting 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:02.680 a private person who's charging him thirty forty dollars an hour. 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:07.360 So if it's not affordable now, it absolutely was not 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:11.120 affordable then. So anywhere that offered after hours care that 0:15:11.160 --> 0:15:15.240 you could use a childcare rebate for, you know, of 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:17.680 course people are going to use that service. He was 0:15:17.720 --> 0:15:20.640 also well regarded in the community. He was registered with 0:15:20.720 --> 0:15:24.240 the council. When you look at some of the flyers 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:28.080 and things like that, you know it was promoted as 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:32.800 this really safe, family friendly, inclusive space for children. 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:38.520 Did the grooming start pretty quickly For. 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:41.600 Me, it was instantaneously from the first time I ever 0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:42.480 walked in that place. 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:46.960 After the break, LJ and Hailey share what the overnight 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:49.760 childcare center was like and how they felt when they 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:55.720 first arrived there as children, What did it look like? 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:58.920 What was the first time you walked into that place? 0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:04.120 Like there was lots of affection, lots of toys, lots 0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:09.840 of you're so special, I'm so glad you're here. You know, 0:16:09.960 --> 0:16:16.040 identifying I guess vulnerabilities and then being able to like 0:16:16.440 --> 0:16:20.640 weaponize that vulnerability against you. Particularly I say, there was 0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:23.960 any like issues at home or you know, if there 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:27.240 was like poverty or anything like that, he was really 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:30.120 able to fill those gaps and create that trust. And 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:32.520 because there were so many kids, you know, when you 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:35.680 see like another kid sitting on his lap, it wasn't 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:39.320 like it was just a normalized behavior. And you know 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:42.480 what I reflect on now is that he didn't just 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:45.760 groom the kids. He groomed to the parents because it 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:47.400 was like, oh, come in for that cup of tea 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:50.880 or like, you know, it became very friendly, almost like 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:52.240 a community within itself. 0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:57.360 Can you tell me about the odd rules that he 0:16:57.520 --> 0:16:59.440 had and he enforced. 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:04.720 On the kids. Yeah, he had some rules, which I 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:08.760 mean we've actually found in writing since our investigations started, 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:14.040 some being for parents that they had to knock before entering, 0:17:14.520 --> 0:17:19.080 had to allow time. Now, if you compare that to 0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:22.840 a modern facility for childcare. I mean, you want to 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:24.760 walk in and collect your child, you walk in and 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:30.119 collect your child. But in terms of rules there was 0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:34.400 for the children, and these were of course kept from 0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:39.320 the parents, but you weren't meant to wear underwear to bed. 0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:44.000 There essentially was a child each night that would sleep 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:49.360 in his bed. And you know what I mean, Yeah, 0:17:49.359 --> 0:17:51.320 they're probably the most significant ones. 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:55.520 Normally too, Like for me, you know, I'd be getting 0:17:55.560 --> 0:17:57.040 dropped to school and he'd be like, oh, you look 0:17:57.040 --> 0:17:57.480 really sick. 0:17:57.520 --> 0:17:58.399 You have to stay home. 0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:01.280 And that was a common encourage as well for children, 0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:03.960 like there does always be one sick kid that had 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:06.760 to stay home, particularly if they're of school age. 0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:13.680 We have access to some correspondence between organizations government organizations 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:19.160 that was raising that as an issue between the organizations, 0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:24.720 and he was given warnings essentially that that wasn't appropriate behavior. 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:30.119 Nothing further was addressed or done by counsel when they 0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:34.960 were made aware that the government funded childcare was having 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:37.120 children sleep in his bed. I mean, you would think 0:18:37.160 --> 0:18:39.959 that's an immediate reason to shut down the center. Yeah, 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:43.359 And that in the end was not even the reason 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:45.000 that he was shut down for In the end, he 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:48.040 was shut down for fraud, and that meant he was 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:54.920 then allowed to move to a different state and continue essentially, 0:18:54.960 --> 0:18:57.960 you know, exposing himself to children. I at that point 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:04.160 was harmed again because our parents were never notified that, hey, 0:19:04.240 --> 0:19:08.520 these allegations that have been raised. You know, he called 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:11.000 my parents and said, well, you know, listen, I've stopped 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:13.360 doing the child care for something to do with fraud. 0:19:14.000 --> 0:19:16.119 And then we went to go and have a visit, 0:19:16.800 --> 0:19:20.320 which it's like, had he had my family been notified, 0:19:21.080 --> 0:19:23.840 obviously at that point you cut ties, but no families 0:19:23.880 --> 0:19:26.960 were given that opportunity because you know, my opinion, it 0:19:27.000 --> 0:19:27.880 was swept under the rug. 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:33.439 How soon after you both started going did the abuse start? 0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:36.199 Mine was in like the second or third time that 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:37.560 I attended Hayley. 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:39.200 Do you remember because you were so young? 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:41.919 Yeah, I was only five years old when I started 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:45.480 at the center, and it was the first time that 0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:49.320 I was chosen to sleep in the bed essentially, which 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:53.040 was again fairly immediate to starting at the center. 0:19:53.760 --> 0:19:56.919 And then the abuse in terms of frequency once he 0:19:56.960 --> 0:19:59.720 had started, was it every time you guys went for me? 0:20:00.760 --> 0:20:05.399 It was very often. As l J said, it's you know, 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:07.560 it's almost like he picked a child he got to pick, 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:12.119 you know, So it was definitely very frequent, particularly when 0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:14.480 most children were attending the center three or four times 0:20:14.480 --> 0:20:16.720 a week, it would be at least once a week. 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:19.280 Do either of you or both of you remember how 0:20:19.280 --> 0:20:20.359 it made you feel. 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:22.280 I don't think I knew what was happening, but I 0:20:22.320 --> 0:20:23.080 knew it was wrong. 0:20:23.560 --> 0:20:24.600 Yeah, I think I. 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:27.879 Also realized it was happening to other children, so that 0:20:27.960 --> 0:20:29.959 I was confused about whether or not it was normal. 0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:33.080 Obviously there are you know, physical responses such as like 0:20:33.320 --> 0:20:37.639 pain and comfortability, all of those things. But for me, 0:20:37.680 --> 0:20:39.840 I just don't think I knew what was happening other 0:20:39.880 --> 0:20:41.359 than I didn't want it to happen. 0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:43.520 And you know, he was. 0:20:45.000 --> 0:20:47.560 Good at the manipulation, I guess, or ensuring that you 0:20:47.600 --> 0:20:51.639 didn't tell, and he himself normalized the behavior, maybing like 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:54.159 I love you so much, this is what love is. 0:20:54.359 --> 0:20:58.040 You're my favorite, all of that kind of typical sex 0:20:58.080 --> 0:20:58.960 offender behavior. 0:20:59.359 --> 0:21:03.520 Were are their threats involved? How did he kind of 0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:05.000 keep this up without. 0:21:04.920 --> 0:21:08.399 I'm part of a bigger sibling group, So he was like, 0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:11.600 you know, if you tell anyone, like your mom's going 0:21:11.680 --> 0:21:13.600 to get in trouble, and then you'll like get taken 0:21:13.640 --> 0:21:15.920 away from her and you won't see your siblings again. 0:21:16.440 --> 0:21:20.439 Yeah, I mean for me it was small. You're going 0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:22.720 to get in trouble. You know this is because you 0:21:22.760 --> 0:21:25.960 do if you feel like it's your fault or like 0:21:26.080 --> 0:21:30.240 you know it's something wrong, you don't know how to 0:21:30.359 --> 0:21:32.919 express it, or you don't really understand what's going on. 0:21:33.040 --> 0:21:36.480 But when you're told this is your fault, you're bad. 0:21:36.640 --> 0:21:38.720 You're going to get in trouble if you tell anyone, 0:21:39.800 --> 0:21:41.960 you know at five years old. That obviously puts a 0:21:42.000 --> 0:21:44.760 lot of pressure on a child and causes a lot 0:21:44.800 --> 0:21:49.680 of confusion. So ultimately, yeah, you just stay quiet because 0:21:49.720 --> 0:21:53.840 you don't know. We don't have the ability to sort 0:21:53.840 --> 0:21:55.840 of weigh up the risks or understand that. 0:21:56.520 --> 0:22:00.000 The language Like I wouldn't have known what to say anyway. 0:22:00.600 --> 0:22:03.479 And even in the nineties, I mean I'm a nineties 0:22:03.520 --> 0:22:06.840 baby too, we weren't really taught consent as a kid 0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:10.520 and our bodies being ours or any of that kind 0:22:10.520 --> 0:22:11.800 of language that we use now. 0:22:12.200 --> 0:22:15.480 I think the best was like that life that you know, 0:22:15.520 --> 0:22:17.680 that giraffe. I think I learned some stuff from there. 0:22:17.760 --> 0:22:19.600 Healthy Herald Ye healthy, Harold. 0:22:19.640 --> 0:22:23.000 I think that was the best I got, really, not. 0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:28.680 One understanding what's going on and two not understanding where 0:22:28.680 --> 0:22:31.199 there's safe people. You can tell. That's something that has 0:22:31.280 --> 0:22:33.520 really improved over time. I mean, it's you know, we 0:22:33.560 --> 0:22:36.679 can still do better. But definitely, as a child, like 0:22:36.720 --> 0:22:39.239 you said, in the nineties, you were told to do 0:22:39.280 --> 0:22:43.480 what adults said you did, and if an adult said 0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:47.000 you can't tell anyone this, and you're going to be 0:22:47.040 --> 0:22:49.960 in big trouble, particularly when you come from a home 0:22:50.119 --> 0:22:54.120 that maybe isn't as loving and supportive, then you absolutely 0:22:54.119 --> 0:22:57.360 don't want to get in trouble, so you don't tell anyone. 0:22:58.040 --> 0:23:00.399 Did either of you try and tell anyone? Try and 0:23:00.440 --> 0:23:02.520 talk to your parents. 0:23:03.320 --> 0:23:04.159 I thought about it. 0:23:04.240 --> 0:23:07.199