Speaker 1: This episode is brought to you by Sikh. The great
Speaker 1: job boom is upon us and there's never been a
Speaker 1: better time to take the next step in your path.
Speaker 2: Yay. You're not going to know until you undertake the
Speaker 2: assessment of whether or not it's worth the risk, Like
Speaker 2: you're not going to know until you go through that
Speaker 2: yes or no, And everyone has to make those decisions
Speaker 2: to themselves. But you're not going to know whether you
Speaker 2: can do it until you sit down and try and
Speaker 2: do it. Where things really started to work out for
Speaker 2: me was accepting who I was as a person and
Speaker 2: accepting that I was not going to be cookie cutter.
Speaker 2: I was always going to be who I was, and
Speaker 2: the second that I embraced who I was, things changed
Speaker 2: to me.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Sees the Yay Podcast. Busy and happy
Speaker 1: are not the same thing. We too rarely question what
Speaker 1: makes the heart seeing. We work, then we rest, but
Speaker 1: rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than
Speaker 1: one way. So this is a platform to hear and
Speaker 1: explore the stories of those who found lives They adore,
Speaker 1: the good, bad and ugly. The best and worst days
Speaker 1: will bear all the facets of seizing your Yay. I'm
Speaker 1: Sarah Davidson or Spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned fuentrepreneurs
Speaker 1: swapped the suits and heels to co found matcha Maiden
Speaker 1: and matcha Milk Bar. CZA is a series of conversations
Speaker 1: on finding a life you love and exploring the self doubt, challenge,
Speaker 1: joy and fulfillment along the way. I could not be
Speaker 1: more excited about today's guest, as she is not only
Speaker 1: one of my dearest friends in the world, but also
Speaker 1: the perfect example of an entrepreneur who has repeatedly embraced
Speaker 1: the beauty of change. She is also the exquisite bride
Speaker 1: from this past weekend. If any of you were watching
Speaker 1: my socials, you may have caught her smashing plates on
Speaker 1: the ground in her fully fledged Juton dress in true
Speaker 1: big fat Greek wedding style. Kat is nothing if not
Speaker 1: extra and I love her to bits for it. Kat
Speaker 1: and I met at our selective entry high school mech
Speaker 1: Rob and shared the hilarious dichotomy between our very nerdy
Speaker 1: academic selves and our station hanging in wild child tendencies.
Speaker 1: On the other hand, she also went on to do
Speaker 1: law arts at Monash, but unlike me, stayed within the
Speaker 1: law to pave an incredibly successful career, but also not
Speaker 1: without its own pivots. She is a brilliant employment lawyer
Speaker 1: who has worked her way through several huge jumps between
Speaker 1: corporate and in house Sydney and Melbourne, and is literally
Speaker 1: on the cusp of another big change. We've had a
Speaker 1: lot of self doubt and certainty chats lately, so she
Speaker 1: couldn't be more perfect for fellow seekers of change to
Speaker 1: hear from. Right now, Cat brings so much a to
Speaker 1: my life, you'll very quickly hear why. So I hope
Speaker 1: you love her as much as I do. Welcome to Seize,
Speaker 1: my darling, Cat.
Speaker 2: Hello, my love you. Hello, beautiful people. Oh my gosh,
Speaker 2: you're so much brand.
Speaker 1: So for context, everyone, Cat and I have known each
Speaker 1: other since like high school. So all of the chapters
Speaker 1: of My Path Yay that you've kind of heard a
Speaker 1: bit about, Kat's there for all of them, so it
Speaker 1: has born witnessed to a lot of different versions of
Speaker 1: Sarah and the Yay has also listened to the podcast
Speaker 1: and been an epic supporter for the whole time, so
Speaker 1: we'll know all the puns and all the background, so
Speaker 1: it's even more of a privilege to have you here today,
Speaker 1: my darling.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. I'm so honored to be here.
Speaker 2: And yes I have all the receipts from all the
Speaker 2: various parts of your life come out mostly on your birthday.
Speaker 1: This is such a risk. I'm like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: this is a much I know, too much, way too much.
Speaker 1: There's photo evidence. There's just too many skeletons. But it's
Speaker 1: your turn to be in the spotlight, so we can
Speaker 1: talk about your skeletons. Let's starting to be here all day,
Speaker 1: I know, right, I was like, how much time should
Speaker 1: we really leave for this. I'm glad we're starting holiday
Speaker 1: because this is going to be like a Joe rogan
Speaker 1: An epic, maybe a trilogy even just minus TBC on that. So,
Speaker 1: as you know, this is a mini series which has
Speaker 1: been a really amazing way to kind of dive a
Speaker 1: little bit deeper into areas that are more timely and
Speaker 1: more specific. And one of the things I probably don't
Speaker 1: share enough on the show, but really really think you're
Speaker 1: an amazing, amazing representation of is the entrepreneurial journey and
Speaker 1: how creative and fulfilled and exciting it can be to
Speaker 1: work within companies and still forge your path and cz
Speaker 1: your yea. So I'd love to go back to the
Speaker 1: very beginning, which is something we do in every episode
Speaker 1: to kind of, you know, trace through all the dots
Speaker 1: and how they connect. What did your youngest self first
Speaker 1: seek to become? Which makes me happy because I think
Speaker 1: it's I think it's Yelvis, which I think is suh.
Speaker 2: My god, moh. The fact that this has come up
Speaker 2: on the podcast.
Speaker 1: Minute two and we're straight into yo. But this is important.
Speaker 2: Elvis is important. Yas is actually relevant to my path
Speaker 2: because I actually, originally when I was little, wanted to
Speaker 2: be a ballerina, but realized pretty quickly that my physical
Speaker 2: comp position as a child not necessarily allow me to
Speaker 2: be a ballerina. And if you've seen my Greek dancing days,
Speaker 2: you'll know that that was the case. So, yeah, I
Speaker 2: wanted to be a ballerina. I was a larger child,
Speaker 2: and yeah, couldn't do that. So I think I don't
Speaker 2: really know what my younger self wanted to be, because
Speaker 2: as long as I can remember, people told me I
Speaker 2: should be a lawyer. I talked a lot. Yeah, So
Speaker 2: I remember being like maybe three or four or five
Speaker 2: when my dad was like, you would make a great lawyer.
Speaker 2: You talk so much. I was very quick to defend
Speaker 2: people like yes, yeah, a constant defender of the underdog.
Speaker 2: I would have an argument when an argument was not required,
Speaker 2: like genuinely would just start fighting. I just always wanted
Speaker 2: to put forward an opposing viewpoint or be the devil's advocate.
Speaker 2: I think I'm still like that, but yeah, I just
Speaker 2: forever had this messaging that you would be a great lawyer.
Speaker 2: You would be a great lawyer. So I kind of
Speaker 2: grew up in my kind of formative years knowing that
Speaker 2: that was the path. People had always told me that.
Speaker 1: That is extraordinary. I actually didn't know that about you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Like I mean obviously a chatterbox like
Speaker 2: you know that can't get a word in sideways around
Speaker 2: me and love, you know, as we said off podcast,
Speaker 2: love giving a lecture occasionally mostly drunk about life.
Speaker 1: And I mean those are my favorite chats with you,
Speaker 1: my absolute.
Speaker 2: Favorite just discussing life. Existential crisis comes up often, you know,
Speaker 2: why the world is the way the world is? The
Speaker 2: stars has come up recently, as you know, you know,
Speaker 2: all those discussions.
Speaker 1: God, I mean, our voice memos to each other are
Speaker 1: just out of prolific, out of controlic.
Speaker 2: Yeah. But also I love a voice memo. So for
Speaker 2: everyone listening, I think voice memos are the way of
Speaker 2: the future. Don't text that people listen to the voices.
Speaker 1: You need the voice. You need the voice, the animation
Speaker 1: in your voice on a Monday morning.
Speaker 2: And also, like tell me, if you get a voice
Speaker 2: message from your girlfriend, you don't know that the message
Speaker 2: is going to be great. Like it's not like I, Hey,
Speaker 2: what's up. It's I have a story to tell you,
Speaker 2: and I have to tell you right now, and you
Speaker 2: need to listen to my voice. That's a tough thing, exactly.
Speaker 1: So obviously, Yelvis is yellow Elvis, which actually is probably
Speaker 1: not that obvious to anyone outside No, but yellow Elvis
Speaker 1: was a costume that it.
Speaker 2: Wasn't a costume. That was the best part of it.
Speaker 2: What do you mean It wasn't a costume, It wasn't outfit,
Speaker 2: So yellow Elvis. So as part of my journey, we
Speaker 2: moved to Greece when we were little, and right I
Speaker 2: told us we were going on a holiday. People are
Speaker 2: going to think my family's bond because after listening to.
Speaker 1: This, which is accurate.
Speaker 2: So Dad was like, oh, we're going on a family holiday.
Speaker 2: And we didn't really holiday as kids. Like, the focus
Speaker 2: for us was really like education, you know, migrant kind
Speaker 2: of story. You come to this country, mum's a refugee,
Speaker 2: dad's migrant, came to country to give your children a future,
Speaker 2: and that was the whole focus. They worked. We went
Speaker 2: to school with the vision, you know, the kind of
Speaker 2: greater vision in mind. And anyway, I was nine years
Speaker 2: old and Dad said, we're going to go to Greece
Speaker 2: for a holiday. So I was like, great, this is
Speaker 2: what all the other kids do. This is amazing. So
Speaker 2: we went to Greece. Narrator, it was not a holiday.
Speaker 1: Dad moved on, you should n'tarrate every episode.
Speaker 2: I feel that was just like surprise, we're living here. Actually,
Speaker 2: the weird thing that happened was when we got there,
Speaker 2: we enrolled us at school and I was like, this
Speaker 2: is weird. My like, Anglo friends don't go to school
Speaker 2: when they go on holidays. I've seen, like, I don't know,
Speaker 2: this is really strange. Anyway, a year later, we're still
Speaker 2: in Grace, We're still in school. I was like, something's
Speaker 2: not right. So we leaved over there for a year,
Speaker 2: and then we came back because obviously that didn't work out.
Speaker 2: So we came back and on my first day back
Speaker 2: at my primary school in Melbourne, it was casual clothes day,
Speaker 2: and because I had just been in Greece for a
Speaker 2: whole year, I was really welcoming a euro vibe, you know.
Speaker 2: I was all about the sequence, the white pants.
Speaker 1: The you know, the Eurovision time seasons.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so I decided that on my first day
Speaker 2: back at my primary school. Mind you, everyone's wearing like
Speaker 2: trackies and you know, like I mean when we were
Speaker 2: wearing back.
Speaker 1: There, Yeah, gosh, brand.
Speaker 2: I turned up in my favorite euro outfit because I
Speaker 2: was like, I'm going to make an entrance. Also, nothing's changed,
Speaker 2: and I was like three piece canary yellow outfit, Elvis esque,
Speaker 2: you know. It was a bell bottom bell bottom pants
Speaker 2: with his little tiny best and like a blazer. Now, honestly,
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure I saw Scanlon selling a similar set
Speaker 2: recently for like one thousand dollars. Meanwhile, I picked it
Speaker 2: up at like some little woggie market in Gulla. Mother
Speaker 2: and my god and I went to school and I was,
Speaker 2: you know, I was a little bit rotund at the time,
Speaker 2: like if you push me down a hill, I would
Speaker 2: have rolled just for like a while, bab And so
Speaker 2: you know, a mid droop top at that age was
Speaker 2: like cute now, but like at the time not and
Speaker 2: kids are vicious. So I turned up on the day
Speaker 2: in this outfit. Everyone else is in like navy red,
Speaker 2: like normal stuff, and I turn up looking literally like
Speaker 2: baby Elvis. And I just remember sitting by myself on
Speaker 2: the steps of the church and people yelling Yelvis at me,
Speaker 2: like obviously yellow outfit, and I looked like Elvis. So
Speaker 2: I was yelloless from there on. Love and you still
Speaker 2: tell you guys this story, and now the whole world
Speaker 2: goes this story.
Speaker 1: So we live for the day that Yelvis makes a return.
Speaker 1: I feel like it's going to happen on Londony in
Speaker 1: our friendship.
Speaker 2: One hundred percent will make a return at some stage.
Speaker 2: But you know what, like the Bully was relentless. But
Speaker 2: I look back on it quite fondly because I think
Speaker 2: it was formative.
Speaker 1: It was, yeah, and.
Speaker 2: It's a great story.
Speaker 1: Now it isn't great. It's a very It's a great
Speaker 1: conversation starter. Not that you need conversation starters to help
Speaker 1: you with conversation. I think it's I think it's really
Speaker 1: like in a really endearing, lovely way. It's such a
Speaker 1: representation of what you are in this life. You aren't
Speaker 1: the person who turns up in the Navy and the Red.
Speaker 1: You've never made a quiet entrance, You've never been a wallflower,
Speaker 1: and it does mean that it's been especially hard, I
Speaker 1: think for you to find the box that you fit in,
Speaker 1: if not that you don't really want to fit in,
Speaker 1: which is why you're the perfect guest for this miniseries
Speaker 1: because the you know, the whole idea is that we
Speaker 1: often have a dream that either we don't end up
Speaker 1: doing or that we get to in a totally different
Speaker 1: way to the way we thought. And even the fact
Speaker 1: that you wanted to be a lawyer, but your first
Speaker 1: year at UNI wasn't law, it was arts and then
Speaker 1: you moved into arts law, Like, there's been so many
Speaker 1: big pivots along the way, and I think, you know,
Speaker 1: one of the common kind of themes for everyone in
Speaker 1: finding their pathways, and it never really looks you know,
Speaker 1: the more unique that you are, the harder it is
Speaker 1: to find what the right way is for you. So
Speaker 1: tell us about how you did end up where you are.
Speaker 1: I mean, you've had some extraordinary positions. But it was
Speaker 1: not a straight line.
Speaker 2: No, And it was a struggle I have to admit, because,
Speaker 2: like you said, I never really fit the mold. I
Speaker 2: mean we came up kind of together. Through high school
Speaker 2: and through UNI primary school was a challenge for me.
Speaker 2: Like I said, I got bullied quite a lot. High
Speaker 2: school is kind of where I found myself, and particularly
Speaker 2: at Macrob. I mean I kicked and screamed about going
Speaker 2: to Macrob and I ran away from home. I don't
Speaker 2: know if I've ever told you that story. When I
Speaker 2: got in, my dad was like you're going to MCROB
Speaker 2: and I was like, nah, I have friends where I
Speaker 2: am and I ran away from home. It lasted eight hours.
Speaker 2: I'm not joking. I got hungry and came back, but
Speaker 2: I love you.
Speaker 1: Probably ran like around the block and we're like.
Speaker 2: Oy the way I was around the corner, just sitting
Speaker 2: by train tracks, like I know that that level crossing,
Speaker 2: And then I got hungry and then I was like
Speaker 2: I'm going over my protest. So yeah, high school was
Speaker 2: kind of where I found myself. But the career path
Speaker 2: that you're given, but I think, particularly when we were
Speaker 2: coming through school. I think it's changing now. But the
Speaker 2: career path that we were told was the way through
Speaker 2: high school through into the first stages of UNI was
Speaker 2: very much like must get X score, must get into
Speaker 2: degree instantly, must finish degree, start working like that was
Speaker 2: kind of what we were told. And particularly when you
Speaker 2: were looking to do law, you know, I remember the
Speaker 2: kind of clerkship season, and it was like, if you
Speaker 2: don't get into a certain law firm, you're not going
Speaker 2: to succeed if you don't. You know, it was like
Speaker 2: your mid tiers and your top tiers and you know,
Speaker 2: and that was kind of what we were told. So
Speaker 2: and my path was not that at all. I really
Speaker 2: struggled at UNI. I knew I was going to love practice,
Speaker 2: but I hated UNI. I loved the social aspect, surprise, surprise,
Speaker 2: shocking down, so just sitting down for that message.
Speaker 1: An aru, but I.
Speaker 2: Hated the study I did. I didn't want to study
Speaker 2: property law, and I didn't want to study body constitutional law,
Speaker 2: and I didn't I wasn't interested, and I, you know,
Speaker 2: I would come from a very kind of like rigid
Speaker 2: structure at high school into a very autonomous structure at UNI,
Speaker 2: and I really struggled to find my feet between you know,
Speaker 2: going to Cuba every Thursday night and then going out
Speaker 2: every Friday night and Saturday and trying to study in between,
Speaker 2: you know, like there wasn't enough time. How do I
Speaker 2: fit in all of the things most in all of
Speaker 2: the things. So yeah, I really really struggled. And then
Speaker 2: at Uni. I did really well at high school, you know,
Speaker 2: comparatively like if you look at scale, but still didn't
Speaker 2: get enough to get into UNI. And that was a
Speaker 2: real blow, Like I felt really devastated by that, but
Speaker 2: decided to do arts and yeah, did two years of
Speaker 2: arts at Monash and then transferred in to a law degree.
Speaker 2: Actually almost missed my spot in the transfer because I
Speaker 2: didn't check my emails with the offer the letter of offer,
Speaker 2: and oh my god, the deadline and missed the deadline
Speaker 2: and ended up at the legal like the law faculty office,
Speaker 2: like crying, literally in tears, saying I've been waiting my
Speaker 2: whole life for this, my parents moved to Australia for this,
Speaker 2: Please let me in, Please give me my spot, and
Speaker 2: ended up having to do orientation late. It was a
Speaker 2: whole thing, but yeah, it wasn't an easy thing to
Speaker 2: get into law, and then I got into law and
Speaker 2: really struggled through it until kind of the end when
Speaker 2: I really kind of buckled down. And then I didn't
Speaker 2: get into a top tier law firm. And the message
Speaker 2: at the time was if you don't get into a
Speaker 2: top tier law firm, you're not going to do very well.
Speaker 2: And you had that in your mind, and I don't know,
Speaker 2: I just kind of kept at it. I think I
Speaker 2: surrounded myself with people who believed in me, and my
Speaker 2: parents were incredibly instrumental in that because they thought I
Speaker 2: was a success. Like they didn't realize or know what
Speaker 2: a top tier law firm was. All they knew was
Speaker 2: that their daughter had gotten into law and you know,
Speaker 2: had kind of fulfilled why they came to Australia. So
Speaker 2: then ended up it was a really weird story. My
Speaker 2: now sister in law, my then brother's girlfriend, messaged me
Speaker 2: and said, Hey, I'm doing some casual work at a
Speaker 2: boutique law firm. You know, do you want some work experience?
Speaker 2: And I was like, sure, what do they do? When
Speaker 2: she said employment law? And I was like, what on
Speaker 2: God's greenerth is that you never even heard about this thing.
Speaker 2: What you mean we had it like at UNI, your
Speaker 2: you know, your core subjects were not employment law, and
Speaker 2: it was an elective but it didn't sound very entertaining.
Speaker 1: It's called industrial relations, and I was like, what does
Speaker 1: that even mean? What does that you say it? But
Speaker 1: I'm like this around yeah, yeah exactly.
Speaker 2: So we had no idea and it didn't sound sexy
Speaker 2: like criminal law, like oh yeah, I'm an employment lawyer.
Speaker 1: And now I think it's obviously for you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like literally, I'm not going to be famous and
Speaker 2: defend underbelly people like this, which was obviously the dream
Speaker 2: at the time. Of course, all of our dream obviously obviously. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So Nicole was like, yeah, just come and interview and
Speaker 2: you know, give it a crack. Anyway, turned up to
Speaker 2: the interview for this firm that I knew, not what
Speaker 2: they did and not of employment and industrial relations, and
Speaker 2: did the interview and thought, I mean, one of the
Speaker 2: things that I have to say I'm very good at
Speaker 2: is faking confidence, and I think that's been really instrumental
Speaker 2: in my career. I'm just really good at faking it
Speaker 2: till I make it. So I walked in confident, I'm lowed.
Speaker 2: So that's not necessarily hard to like project and.
Speaker 1: Volume is not your challenge. That's not your challenge. Yeap.
Speaker 2: So had the interview, and then I actually found out
Speaker 2: some years later that there was two guys that I
Speaker 2: interviewed with. One wanted to hire me and one didn't.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah. The one who wanted to hire me just
Speaker 2: kind of he said, I just kind of saw something
Speaker 2: in you. And the one who didn't want to hire
Speaker 2: me thought that I was all confidence and nothing else,
Speaker 2: which is an interesting comment. Wow. Also goes to show
Speaker 2: that maybe being interviewed by men as an assertive woman
Speaker 2: might come off a certain way.
Speaker 1: But anyway, I mean, we have a whole question on that,
Speaker 1: so we'll come back to that for sure.
Speaker 2: Yes, So got the casual job and there and then
Speaker 2: worked the phones, and really what the job was was
Speaker 2: I did a couple of days a week and that
Speaker 2: was on top of you know, our retail jobs and
Speaker 2: yuinni and whatever, giving advice to retailers about employment conditions,
Speaker 2: so things like modern awards, the National Employment Standards contracts
Speaker 2: HR advice effectively. And realized pretty quickly that there was
Speaker 2: this whole area of law that I didn't know anything about,
Speaker 2: but really kind of liked, like I got to deal
Speaker 2: with people, I got to you know, I liked the
Speaker 2: relevance of employment. You know, we all work, so many
Speaker 2: people don't know their rights, and I you know, found
Speaker 2: myself feeling quite passionately about it. So did that for
Speaker 2: a while and then kind of got towards the end
Speaker 2: of our degree, and in my penultimate year, towards the
Speaker 2: end of my penultimate yea was offered a graduate role, which,
Speaker 2: you know, as most people know, was like god, I
Speaker 2: don't even know, like it was like the biggest a
Speaker 2: gift on.
Speaker 1: Earth, like plinicle, like.
Speaker 2: A secure and role totally, and you know, and got
Speaker 2: one at a firm that I really liked with people
Speaker 2: I really enjoyed working with. But the catch was I
Speaker 2: had eleven subjects to go, and so I needed to
Speaker 2: do eleven subjects in twelve months.
Speaker 1: That's right, Oh my god, I forgot that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I was like, shit, cat, Like, if ever
Speaker 2: there's a time where you've got to really like pull
Speaker 2: your socks up, I hate that saying. Why did I
Speaker 2: say that?
Speaker 1: Because at we had to pull our socks up all
Speaker 1: the time.
Speaker 2: It's contextual. Yeah, there was ever a time where I
Speaker 2: really had to like step up and deliver forre myself
Speaker 2: more than anything, you know. That was the time. So
Speaker 2: I did a summer subject, four semesters two and then
Speaker 2: I think four again. Somehow managed to like complete the
Speaker 2: degree and then graduated and then ended up working at
Speaker 2: this law firm. Can I say names on the podcast.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, if you're comfortable.
Speaker 2: Yeah. The firm's called FCB Workplace Law. It was an
Speaker 2: incredible place for me to loe. They're one of Australia's
Speaker 2: kind of boutique employment and industry relations firms and learned
Speaker 2: from really really exceptional lawyers. And one of the other
Speaker 2: things that happened when I started my supervised workplace training,
Speaker 2: which is like the first part of being a lawyer,
Speaker 2: was the firm was kind of like under resourced at
Speaker 2: the time, there being kind of like a staff movement,
Speaker 2: which meant that I was also being exposed to work
Speaker 2: that was a well above my pay grade and well
Speaker 2: above my years of experience, and that was terrifying. At
Speaker 2: the time. I was like, literally, fuck, I am going
Speaker 2: to ruin someone's life, someone's business, Like why is anyone
Speaker 2: allowing me to do this? This is a bad idea, Guys,
Speaker 2: I don't know what I'm.
Speaker 1: Doing talking about employment law. Why did you employ me?
Speaker 2: Why did you employ me? Terrible idea? You should know
Speaker 2: about it. Like was genuinely felt like I had absolutely
Speaker 2: no idea what I was doing. But it was sink
Speaker 2: or swim, and you had to swim, like you just
Speaker 2: you know, you just didn't have a choice, and really
Speaker 2: throwing the deep end, you know, long hours, fifteen hour days,
Speaker 2: eating fucking two minute noodles. My it was literally beige
Speaker 2: at the time. It was like baskets and noodles and toast,
Speaker 2: and like coffee, so much coffee, and nothing.
Speaker 1: About you is beige. That was a really I remember.
Speaker 1: It was a really hard time, just a hard time time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think it was for a lot of us,
Speaker 2: and I also think it was formative for a lot
Speaker 2: of us. Now. I'm certainly not saying that lawyers have
Speaker 2: to work those hours to prove themselves. I think that's nonsense,
Speaker 2: and I think the tide is changing on that most definitely.
Speaker 2: I think people coming through now have a greater appreciation
Speaker 2: of work life balance and in a way that we didn't.
Speaker 2: We almost feel like we had to do it because
Speaker 2: it was like part of being a lawyer. And I
Speaker 2: don't necessarily condone that, but what it certainly did do
Speaker 2: for me was it showed me that I could step
Speaker 2: up and I could deliver, and I could step up
Speaker 2: in a world that I didn't always feel like I
Speaker 2: belonged in. I mean, I always felt like being a
Speaker 2: lawyer you had to be this kind of like cookie
Speaker 2: cutter kind of you had to be quiet in a way, right,
Speaker 2: Like we had this image of lawyers, and I certainly
Speaker 2: am not the image. I am brash, I can be
Speaker 2: quite abrasive. I swear a lot like I swear a lot.
Speaker 2: I you know, I'm a big personality. I'm a woman,
Speaker 2: and I was entering a world and particularly the industrial
Speaker 2: relations side is incredibly male dominated, and you're dealing with
Speaker 2: unions and you know this is not a comment about unions,
Speaker 2: but you know that there is this kind of like
Speaker 2: male dominance that you have to deal with. And you know,
Speaker 2: I wasn't going to be the reserved lawyer that was
Speaker 2: going to cop the shit, and you know, I was outspoken,
Speaker 2: and yeah, I just didn't fit a mold and that
Speaker 2: was really really hard. But yeah, those first kind of
Speaker 2: years showed me that I could really step up, and
Speaker 2: that kind of maybe was the beginning of what happened
Speaker 2: after my kind of first couple of years as a lawyer.
Speaker 1: I think, well, that also makes me really think a
Speaker 1: couple of things. Firstly, because you and I have been
Speaker 1: through the you know, the big career kind of becoming
Speaker 1: a big formative part of our lives. If you're the
Speaker 1: main part of our life, but through a lot of
Speaker 1: self doubt. Often people who don't know I won't have
Speaker 1: seen that, but we've seen each other's absolute breakdowns along
Speaker 1: the way. First is that you can push through that.
Speaker 1: But second, something I love about you and why I'm
Speaker 1: excited to have you for this particular mini series is
Speaker 1: the idea that now knowing everyone listening, knowing how much
Speaker 1: you wanted this for how long and how hard it
Speaker 1: was to get there, like the barriers on top of
Speaker 1: the normal conventional pathway that you had to take to
Speaker 1: make sure you got into FCB, then you, I mean,
Speaker 1: I know you won't blow your own horn, became one
Speaker 1: of like the thirty lawyers under thirty. You know, you
Speaker 1: won all these awards, you became a senior associate, You
Speaker 1: lived up to what you worried you never could. It
Speaker 1: would have been very easy for you then to be
Speaker 1: comfortable there, Like once you did conquer one workplace, you
Speaker 1: could have lived there for decades, become a partner and
Speaker 1: kind of never moved. But you know, there's a statistic
Speaker 1: that's just come out as part of this kind of
Speaker 1: mini series to the background to it is that like
Speaker 1: sixty one percent of Australians right now don't want to
Speaker 1: change jobs in the next twelve months because we've been
Speaker 1: threatened with so much uncertainty and instability. But I I
Speaker 1: kind of think of it as an opportunity and knowing
Speaker 1: now what's happened to you since then, being headhunted and
Speaker 1: like all the things you never thought that could happen,
Speaker 1: but also the scariest things that could happen. Why do
Speaker 1: you think we are so averse to change? And how
Speaker 1: did you then embrace the massive changes that have come
Speaker 1: more than once since then? I mean FCB is like
Speaker 1: three chapters ago for you. Now, how did you push
Speaker 1: through you know, that fear of change?
Speaker 2: So the first thing I will say is I hate
Speaker 2: change like I can't hate penance, like I fight change
Speaker 2: like I'm gonna tell you a story. I were the
Speaker 2: same pants to every exam we ever did at Monash
Speaker 2: Law and fuck, we did a lot of exams and
Speaker 2: I wore the same pants. They were these black cargo
Speaker 2: zip off pants. They could be shorts, they could be pants.
Speaker 2: Were you feeling hot in the exam? Were you feeling
Speaker 2: cold in the exam? Who knows? I will the same pants?
Speaker 1: Is there every situation.
Speaker 2: I'm so superstitious and I hate change so much that
Speaker 2: to me, maintaining control of anything was the easiest way
Speaker 2: for me to get through life. In saying that, to
Speaker 2: answer the question, I think, why don't people go through
Speaker 2: change because it's scary, Because being in a situation that's
Speaker 2: known and sure is easier. It's like staying in a
Speaker 2: relationship you're not happy in, you're not miserable, it's not toxic,
Speaker 2: it's okay. You stay in it because it's easy and
Speaker 2: it's comfortable, and it's known, and the unknown is really
Speaker 2: really scary as humans, and I think, particularly after the
Speaker 2: last two years, every day has felt unknown. Will we
Speaker 2: have restrictions? When we have restrictions, we're borders open, we're
Speaker 2: borders clothes. Can I go to that event? Can I
Speaker 2: not go to that event is my family okay? Is
Speaker 2: my family not? Okay? You know, change is really really scary,
Speaker 2: and once though, I think you allow yourself to kind
Speaker 2: of just go with it, that becomes easier. And also
Speaker 2: I think there needs to be an acceptance that change
Speaker 2: can be good. And that took me a really long
Speaker 2: time to work out that change is good and change
Speaker 2: may bring good and especially I think if you're an
Speaker 2: anxious person. I'm an anxious person. So for me, change
Speaker 2: is like like affects my mental health sometimes and I'm
Speaker 2: very open about that. So I think it is it's
Speaker 2: hard for everyone.
Speaker 1: And so how did you kind of like full context
Speaker 1: for everyone? Kat then went on to get head hunted
Speaker 1: by Borrel. So then adding your unique perspectives as a
Speaker 1: woman in the construction industry is you know, another sort
Speaker 1: of layer here. But then god head hunted by Australia Post. Like,
Speaker 1: you've just had so many enormous changes within employment law
Speaker 1: and within a you know, one kind of vague category,
Speaker 1: but with you know, that's coming back to the entrepreneurial
Speaker 1: possibilities to within companies grow exponentially. You've changed complete industries,
Speaker 1: like from construction to Australia Posts. Like they are so
Speaker 1: diametrically opposed in nature. How did you push through that doubt,
Speaker 1: that anxiety, that hatred of change until you can realize
Speaker 1: the benefits in it, Like, how did you get through
Speaker 1: those uncomfortable, you know, responses in your body?
Speaker 2: I think it started at FCB, if I'm honest, being
Speaker 2: able to accept change, And I think it was because
Speaker 2: I was surrounded by people, two partners in particular, who
Speaker 2: really backed me and allowed me to back myself. So
Speaker 2: I think it started there. I would say where things
Speaker 2: really started to work out for me was accepting who
Speaker 2: I was as a person and accepting that I was
Speaker 2: not going to be cookie cutter. I was always going
Speaker 2: to be who I was. And the second that I
Speaker 2: embraced who I was, which is what you see is
Speaker 2: what you get kind of things changed for me. Once
Speaker 2: I accepted that clients liked me because I was who
Speaker 2: I was, that my colleagues liked me because I was
Speaker 2: who I was, That I was good at what I
Speaker 2: did because I was who I was. Once I stopped
Speaker 2: trying to fit this like bullshit mold that I thought
Speaker 2: was a lawyer, I actually got really fucking good at
Speaker 2: my job because I got I had this different confidence
Speaker 2: that was like, I'm not going to sit myself in
Speaker 2: a box for you, and no, I actually deserve to
Speaker 2: be at that table, and I'm going to demand a
Speaker 2: place at that table. So that's kind of where it
Speaker 2: changed for me, and I think the kind of critical
Speaker 2: part of that was and that's where I kind of
Speaker 2: learned to start embracing change and backing myself people believing
Speaker 2: in me, having an incredible network around me of people
Speaker 2: like yourself who I've messaged being like, fuck, what am
Speaker 2: I doing?
Speaker 1: Tell me those on my phone from you.
Speaker 2: So then I went into I did a secondment at Borrel,
Speaker 2: and then Borrel effectively kind of had having me ask
Speaker 2: me to stay on as an in house legal council there.
Speaker 2: So I stepped into a different world that was a
Speaker 2: huge change for me. All I had known since UNI
Speaker 2: was FCB. I did eight years there, from casual to
Speaker 2: junior grad to solicitor to associate to senior associate. That's
Speaker 2: all I had known. And then I stepped into a
Speaker 2: world where that none of that shit matted at all.
Speaker 2: The guys at Borrel, the girls at Borrel. Could I
Speaker 2: have given two fucks what I was in my previous life.
Speaker 2: They were like, you're a legal counsel. Now there's a
Speaker 2: whole other range of stakeholders, you have to deal with
Speaker 2: a whole other range of considerations. And you're a woman
Speaker 2: now in a man's world, like very much in a
Speaker 2: man's world. Yeah, And that was really really hard. And
Speaker 2: then moving to POST was another change that probably was
Speaker 2: the scarier change. I always had a backup plan because
Speaker 2: I was on Secconvent to start with. I knew the people,
Speaker 2: and I knew that if I hated it, I could
Speaker 2: kind of like put my safety blanket back on and
Speaker 2: go back to FCB, which is what I knew. Post
Speaker 2: was entirely different. I was going into a situation where
Speaker 2: I'm knew one person, the organization was entirely different. Wasn't
Speaker 2: in construction or infrastructure, wasn't private practice. That was really scary.
Speaker 2: And actually remember having a conversation with you where I
Speaker 2: was like, what am I doing? Do I take this
Speaker 2: chance or not? I hate change? Why am I looking
Speaker 2: for another change? What's wrong with me? Why can I
Speaker 2: not be less ambitious? Why can't I just be happy?
Speaker 2: And that was hard. And now the role that I've
Speaker 2: just accepted, which is you to start in May was
Speaker 2: the hardest decision for me because I've always dealt with
Speaker 2: imposter syndrome as a woman. I've never dealt with it
Speaker 2: as much as I've dealt with it. Taking this job on,
Speaker 2: I don't think, as you know.
Speaker 1: Which is interesting, isn't it? Isn't it? It's like you've
Speaker 1: built a toolkit to deal with that, and yet as
Speaker 1: the stakes get higher, it actually becomes more acute, which
Speaker 1: means you're constantly developing those tools.
Speaker 2: And I keep saying to people, you know, I think
Speaker 2: I've said this to you where I say, you know,
Speaker 2: this is a stretch role for me, and people like,
Speaker 2: why do you keep saying that? That means that you're
Speaker 2: not backing yourself. So yeah, all the stuff that I've
Speaker 2: just said that I learned to do back myself, be myself.
Speaker 2: Go into organizations where I'm a cultural fit, where it's
Speaker 2: not just them interviewing me, but I'm interviewing them. Have unraveled.
Speaker 2: The more kind of senior my roles get and I'm
Speaker 2: back to feeling like a woman in a man's world
Speaker 2: who isn't qualified enough to be there and questioning my
Speaker 2: seat at the table again, which has been an interesting
Speaker 2: transformation mentally for me, because I feel like I've come
Speaker 2: kind of full circle again and I'm now convincing myself
Speaker 2: again you can do this, You can push through this.
Speaker 2: Remember the days of eating two minute noodles at your desk.
Speaker 2: This is what you wanted, this is what you worked for.
Speaker 2: Now is your chance to take this opportunity in a
Speaker 2: candidates market. You know, it really is a market at
Speaker 2: the moment for people to back themselves and have a crack.
Speaker 2: And you've been given this opportunity. Why the fuck are
Speaker 2: you not taking it? Q thirty five thousand voice messages
Speaker 2: to you.
Speaker 1: Next me in it, catecceity my last few months highlight.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's kind of that's where I'm at at
Speaker 2: the moment. But still battling with all the stuff that
Speaker 2: we deal with as you know, as women, as candidates,
Speaker 2: as people who want to progress their careers, as people
Speaker 2: who don't like change. All of those things factor into
Speaker 2: decision making, I think absolutely.
Speaker 1: And it is so interesting that you've heard me, I'm
Speaker 1: sure you've heard me speak many times about the fact
Speaker 1: that actually, you will get better at mastering self doubt,
Speaker 1: you'll get better at pitching yourself and having those conversations.
Speaker 1: But as you get like the day that it disappears
Speaker 1: is the day I worry I've become too complacent. It's
Speaker 1: not a bad thing for that self doubt to follow you.
Speaker 1: It just means you're constantly leveling up each time, which
Speaker 1: is why changes is important, so that you don't ever
Speaker 1: get like too comfortable that you're not learning or growing
Speaker 1: as you grow as a person in the world does
Speaker 1: around you. And the candidates market thing is like the
Speaker 1: point that I really want to have a home for people,
Speaker 1: which is it really hasn't ever been a better time
Speaker 1: for you to just make the most of this phenomenon
Speaker 1: that is, you know, it's being called the Great boom
Speaker 1: because there are more jobs than they have ever been before,
Speaker 1: but less candidates and less people applying than they ever
Speaker 1: have been before, So like, why do you think we
Speaker 1: should make the most of it?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: The quote that I love is when nothing is certain,
Speaker 1: anything is possible, everyone's in Like the uncertainty is universal now,
Speaker 1: so it's almost like just ignore that and just go
Speaker 1: for like what's the worst that could happen? And then also,
Speaker 1: I know you've had a rejection recently as well, and
Speaker 1: that ties in a lot to you know, not wanting
Speaker 1: to put ourselves out there and even knowing that there's
Speaker 1: a higher chance than ever knowing that that also is
Speaker 1: not the end of the story either. It's just a
Speaker 1: time of like trying lots of things, putting lots of
Speaker 1: you know, little seeds and things out there. Why do
Speaker 1: you think we should make the most of this time
Speaker 1: in particular?
Speaker 2: Well, I guess firstly because there's so many opportunities at
Speaker 2: the moment. So like the role I've just taken, for example,
Speaker 2: isn't technically a legal role. It's a role that requires
Speaker 2: or I guess, you know, ideally someone will have a
Speaker 2: legal background and understand the kind of technical components of ERR,
Speaker 2: but doesn't actually require I want to be an ir lawyer.
Speaker 2: I just happened to be one, And I think now
Speaker 2: is an opportunity, like what I've just done, for people
Speaker 2: to kind of go to pivot kind of sideways, like
Speaker 2: not necessarily go up in the same kind of a
Speaker 2: corporate ladder that they may have thought, but to use
Speaker 2: the skills that they've acquired during the course of their
Speaker 2: careers to do something else, to do something they've always
Speaker 2: wanted to try, and I just think to myself, what's
Speaker 2: the worst that's going to happen? You apply for a job,
Speaker 2: you don't get it. Okay, that hurts. I just had
Speaker 2: a rejection recently, the first one I've actually ever had
Speaker 2: in my life, which sounds so arrogant to say, and
Speaker 2: I don't mean it to sound arrogant, but being rejected,
Speaker 2: you can take it very, very personally, and it's not personal.
Speaker 2: You just weren't the right person for the job. You
Speaker 2: were too senior, you were too junior, you were not
Speaker 2: you know that you were in a cultural fit. I
Speaker 2: think that's a big one, you know, So you know
Speaker 2: rejection is hard, But what's the worst that's going to happen.
Speaker 2: You're going to get rejected and you'll get over it,
Speaker 2: and you've probably got a job to stay at. Anyway,
Speaker 2: you're going to get the job, and you have to
Speaker 2: consider whether or not you take it. Now. Just because
Speaker 2: you get the job doesn't mean you need to take it.
Speaker 2: I mean, the way that you interview is really important,
Speaker 2: and the way that you communicate, you know, whether you
Speaker 2: accept or reject an offer or negotiate an off is
Speaker 2: really important, I think. But you don't need to take
Speaker 2: a job just because you get it. So what's the
Speaker 2: worst that's going to happen. You have more interview experience,
Speaker 2: you get to meet more people, you get to network,
Speaker 2: you get to give it a go, and if you
Speaker 2: want it, great, and if you don't, then you're back
Speaker 2: to where you kind of were.
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, you haven't lost anything.
Speaker 2: You haven't lost anything. And that's really hard for me
Speaker 2: to say again as somebody who hates change and you know,
Speaker 2: finds it quite anxiety inducing. But there's really no downside,
Speaker 2: especially at the moment, Like there's just so many opportunities
Speaker 2: out there for people, and we all have imposter syndrome
Speaker 2: and we all have self doubt and we just need
Speaker 2: to even if even with that, just give it a crack.
Speaker 2: I don't know, my dad always said, and I don't
Speaker 2: know if you've ever heard him say this, but like
Speaker 2: he always just said to us, do your best, and like,
Speaker 2: just do your best, give it a go and see
Speaker 2: what happens. And you know, I even say going into
Speaker 2: my new job, like I say to my partner all
Speaker 2: the time, this could be the best thing I've ever done.
Speaker 2: This could be the biggest mistake I've ever made. But
Speaker 2: I'm not going to know until I give it a crack,
Speaker 2: and what's the worst that's going to happen? Like, we're
Speaker 2: very privileged, I mean in an incredibly privileged position where
Speaker 2: I could find another job or I could not work
Speaker 2: for a little bit if I had to, like it
Speaker 2: wouldn't be great, but like if I had to, so
Speaker 2: you know, for people who are able to do so,
Speaker 2: it's always worth taking a risk. I think. I say
Speaker 2: that as a not risk taker.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, bro, that is such good advice. That
Speaker 1: question coming back to that idea of what is the
Speaker 1: worst that could happen? And there will absolutely be times
Speaker 1: in your life where the worst that could happen is
Speaker 1: too much of a risk. There will be times where
Speaker 1: you might have a dependent or you might have you know,
Speaker 1: whatever circumstances might be there that mean it is too
Speaker 1: much of a risk. But if you do ask that
Speaker 1: question and the answer is, I won't lose anything except
Speaker 1: maybe a bit of a you know, pride might be hurt,
Speaker 1: I might take something personally, it might feel a little
Speaker 1: bit icky. Or you apply for all these things and
Speaker 1: you suddenly have all these opportunities you never knew you had,
Speaker 1: and you can still choose to say no, Like if
Speaker 1: the worst that could happen is that either you say
Speaker 1: no or they say no, and like you take a
Speaker 1: few minutes to get over it, but you haven't lost anything.
Speaker 2: And everything is a calculated risk, right, So you know,
Speaker 2: I think especially as women, and you know, depending on
Speaker 2: where you are in your life and what your personal
Speaker 2: choices are. By no means to say that all women
Speaker 2: want to make the same choices. That's certainly not the case.
Speaker 2: But if you are a woman like myself who does
Speaker 2: want to have a family and does want to be
Speaker 2: a mother and does want to be able to dedicate
Speaker 2: time to that, that the considerations and the pros and
Speaker 2: cons become different. Again. It's no longer just a career
Speaker 2: trajectory and financial you know, your remuneration. It's also what
Speaker 2: else do I need to give up? What does my
Speaker 2: timing look like? Like timing also becomes really really important,
Speaker 2: and you know there are things that will factor into
Speaker 2: the analysis of is this worth the risk? But you're
Speaker 2: not going to know until you undertake the assessment of
Speaker 2: whether or not it's worth the risk, Like you're not
Speaker 2: going to know until you go through that yes or no.
Speaker 2: And I just did this, So this is very fresh
Speaker 2: for me. You know, do I leave a job that
Speaker 2: I'm in that I'm really enjoying it at the moment,
Speaker 2: with great colleagues, great flexibility, I could have a family,
Speaker 2: I can go off and get married, you know whatever.
Speaker 2: Or do I take a huge gamble and restart my
Speaker 2: matt leave clock effectively and know that maybe I won't
Speaker 2: get maternity leave, or maybe it won't be as flexible
Speaker 2: in the workplace. You know, I'm going into a very
Speaker 2: intense role. Maybe I won't get the flexibility. But it's
Speaker 2: just everyone has to make those decisions for themselves. But
Speaker 2: you're not going to know whether you can do it
Speaker 2: until you sit down and try and do it.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, that just is So it's just everything
Speaker 1: that sees the A is about the idea that, like
Speaker 1: you know, firstly, everyone's equation, everyone's risk matrix is going
Speaker 1: to be different, so you really don't have to look
Speaker 1: at the way anyone else has done it as long
Speaker 1: as you're trying to do the equation at all. Secondly,
Speaker 1: I love the idea that you were saying about back
Speaker 1: to rejection. I think it's really important to remember also
Speaker 1: that sometimes rejection is just redirecting you, like sometimes you're
Speaker 1: getting rejected from a role because it's not not only
Speaker 1: are you not the right cultural fit, it might be
Speaker 1: saving you from going down a pathway that isn't then
Speaker 1: for you. I think that's also something. And then finally
Speaker 1: on the whole idea of like your risk matrix, it's actually,
Speaker 1: like you just said before, the job you have right
Speaker 1: now is fulfilling. You've got great opportunities, You've got a
Speaker 1: great maternity lead policy. You know, all these things for
Speaker 1: two people who have for different reasons, like with your
Speaker 1: parents being you know, migrants and me being adopted. We've
Speaker 1: had this like really overh sense of gratitude for a
Speaker 1: really long time. Sometimes the hesitation of the reason Ozzies
Speaker 1: don't want to change jobs is also because they feel
Speaker 1: like it's ungrateful to want something more than something that's good.
Speaker 1: But you don't have to settle for good, like otherwise
Speaker 1: we would all just live this like fine life. You'd
Speaker 1: never grow, you'd never try anything else. Just because you're
Speaker 1: happy where you are, it doesn't mean you can't at
Speaker 1: least put your toe in a different water. Yeah, like
Speaker 1: you said, you don't have to say yes if you
Speaker 1: get the job.
Speaker 2: And gone other days. You know. I had an interesting
Speaker 2: conversation with my parents recently where I told them about
Speaker 2: the new role and I was like, Oh, I got
Speaker 2: this really exciting opportunity to be an IR manager on
Speaker 2: this new enormous ten billion dollar project. This is what
Speaker 2: I'm doing. And the response was, we're happy for you,
Speaker 2: but didn't you just start a new job? Why not
Speaker 2: stay in that job? Like this idea that you have
Speaker 2: to stay in a job like our parents did for ten,
Speaker 2: twenty thirty, forty fifty years, Like those days are gone.
Speaker 2: Now there is so many opportunities out there, and opportunities
Speaker 2: look different to us, you know. Like to your point
Speaker 2: about comparison, I spent the last probably five or six
Speaker 2: years comparing myself to like so many of the incredible
Speaker 2: people you've had on the podcast, for example, being like,
Speaker 2: why can't I be an entrepreneur? Why can't Why did
Speaker 2: I not have that idea? Why is this still my trajectory?
Speaker 2: It's no longer like it's not cool or it's not
Speaker 2: you know, am I really fulfilling? You know? What I
Speaker 2: was put on this earth to do. God, that sounds
Speaker 2: like so wanky, But like you know what I mean, Like,
Speaker 2: it is true my life goal, you know, by not
Speaker 2: being an entrepreneur or whatever. But like I think also
Speaker 2: like comparing yourself to someone who's not on your path
Speaker 2: is really difficult in our day and age. Like, yes,
Speaker 2: we have more opportunities, but we also have more opportunities
Speaker 2: to compare ourselves to people who aren't actually doing the
Speaker 2: same thing as us. So totally, I don't know if
Speaker 2: that makes any sense, but like, do you know what
Speaker 2: I mean?
Speaker 1: Oh? Absolutely, And I think that's one thing. I think
Speaker 1: that is one thing, like the hustle culture and like
Speaker 1: the total democratization of choice and influence and business ideas
Speaker 1: has meant where a generation where, you know, becoming an
Speaker 1: entrepreneur and starting a business like startup culture has been
Speaker 1: really hailed and glorified as like the way to happiness because.
Speaker 2: You totally.
Speaker 1: Does not suit everyone. Absolutely does not suit everyone. The
Speaker 1: reason why I'm so excited about it is because the
Speaker 1: like pathway of an entrepreneur is there's no greater than
Speaker 1: less than equal to whatever. It's just like some people
Speaker 1: aren't suited to running their own business. It was liberating
Speaker 1: for me, but it could be totally restrictive for others,
Speaker 1: like some people don't thrive in that environment, and you've
Speaker 1: been able to like change industries, probably at a much
Speaker 1: greater level of change than someone who was running their
Speaker 1: own business. They couldn't have probably gone from like construction
Speaker 1: to Australia posts like you know, you're able to make
Speaker 1: massive changes, massive growth opportunities within companies and focus on
Speaker 1: the skill that you have rather than being an accountant
Speaker 1: and being a marketing person. I'm doing all the things
Speaker 1: at once. I think you'd hate that.
Speaker 2: I know very despite comparing myself to numerous people who
Speaker 2: run their own businesses, I know I could never run
Speaker 2: my own business, and not that I could not. It's
Speaker 2: not a competency thing. I don't want to. I really
Speaker 2: actually love what I do, Like I am a proper
Speaker 2: eir nerd like I read cases on aeroplanes at seven
Speaker 2: o'clock in the morning, like it's discussed you do.
Speaker 1: I love how much you love it and how much
Speaker 1: you never knew you would love it.
Speaker 2: I get such a kick out of it. I'm really
Speaker 2: lucky to be in a profession where you know, I
Speaker 2: can be myself, I can deal with people. I can
Speaker 2: you know, be you know, intelligent, and also, you know,
Speaker 2: the interesting thing about being in my space as a
Speaker 2: woman is you're a surprise packet, Like they don't really
Speaker 2: see you coming a lot of the time, which is great.
Speaker 2: But I think if people are like me, if you
Speaker 2: really love what you do, don't worry about being an entrepreneur.
Speaker 2: But now is your time? Really, like genuinely twenty twenty two,
Speaker 2: I think is the time for you to either back
Speaker 2: yourself and take a risk in what you're doing, or
Speaker 2: back yourself and take a risk in something adjacent to
Speaker 2: what you're doing and just try something else on and
Speaker 2: see what happens. I mean, unless you're really happy where
Speaker 2: you are, and then like stay there, like sure, tell
Speaker 2: y if you've been entertaining the idea of like do
Speaker 2: I don't? I like, now is really the time to
Speaker 2: have a go, Like I'm trying to build a team
Speaker 2: at the moment under me, and like we can't find
Speaker 2: enough people to hire, like it really is a candidate's market.
Speaker 1: There you go, Lovely yighborhood. You all know how excited
Speaker 1: I get about life unraveling in chapters and how uncertainty
Speaker 1: is the greatest platform for opportunity. After a few tough
Speaker 1: years the great job boom is upon us, and there
Speaker 1: has never been a better time to start the next
Speaker 1: step in your path. Yay. We talk at length on
Speaker 1: this show about the obstacles to change, and the statistics
Speaker 1: are real. Forty five percent, nearly half of Aussie's are
Speaker 1: worried their skills and resume won't stuck up against other Aussies.
Speaker 1: Fifty nine percent are worried that if they changed jobs,
Speaker 1: it might not be the right role or company for them.
Speaker 1: But if you let your mind worry that there's a
Speaker 1: risk it won't work out, logic consists that you must
Speaker 1: also accept that it could also work out better than
Speaker 1: you had ever dreamed. Plus, the numbers are on your side.
Speaker 1: In March, job ads on SEQ were up thirty two
Speaker 1: percent compared to the same time last year and fifty
Speaker 1: one percent compared to pre pandemic levels, but job applications
Speaker 1: per job ad are down forty two percent compared to
Speaker 1: pre pandemic levels. So there are more jobs but less
Speaker 1: competition than ever before. So if you're looking to change
Speaker 1: Pathia's head on over to seek and take advantage of
Speaker 1: the great job boom. Also for those who are considering
Speaker 1: putting themselves forward, for something. I think we are not
Speaker 1: always the best at pitching ourselves, if not other worst
Speaker 1: at pitching ourselves, Like you and I always struggle with that,
Speaker 1: are spoken at length about it. How have you learnt
Speaker 1: to be able to get a bit more comfortable with
Speaker 1: putting your best foot forward so that you don't miss
Speaker 1: out on something that is meant for you just because
Speaker 1: you are uncomfortable, you know, with the language of like
Speaker 1: blowing your own horn. You know, we live in a
Speaker 1: really tall puppy syndrome infected landscape. And plus self doubt
Speaker 1: plus imposter syndrome, plus being a woman, plus being an overthinker,
Speaker 1: you know, all of those things. Is there any advice
Speaker 1: for like your CV or organizing meetings with someone who
Speaker 1: might put you forward for a job, Like, how do
Speaker 1: you take advantage of it without feeling icky about putting
Speaker 1: yourself you know, pitching yourself?
Speaker 2: I mean really, I'd just like love to walk into
Speaker 2: an interview and be like I'm cute and I'm really
Speaker 2: nice and I'm really entertaining, like Hiami, love me, pay me,
Speaker 2: like That's what I want to do. But yeah, no,
Speaker 2: you can't do that, and interviewing is really tricky. Selling
Speaker 2: yourself is really hard and as I think women in particular,
Speaker 2: My god, I've raised the woman thing a lot, but like,
Speaker 2: obviously that's my experience. Obviously it's my strange. I think
Speaker 2: it's hard because I think, like you said, in Australia,
Speaker 2: we have this tall poppy syndrome things, so there's a
Speaker 2: fine line between selling yourself and being arrogant, and you
Speaker 2: don't want to come across as arrogant or we have
Speaker 2: this like thing inouse society about not being arrogant and
Speaker 2: selling yourself. My tips are be who you are. That's
Speaker 2: the first thing, like a like a cute, pared down
Speaker 2: version of who you are, Like I'm not entirely in
Speaker 2: myself in an interview, Like let's be honest, but be
Speaker 2: who you are, know your worth, know what things you're
Speaker 2: good at, and also be honest, like that's my biggest thing.
Speaker 2: Do not pretend to know something, not know something in
Speaker 2: an interview, because you will be found out. Like that's
Speaker 2: my and I say that as both an employment lawyer
Speaker 2: and as someone who has interviewed a lot, like calm down,
Speaker 2: like we're gonna know if you're lying, But be honest
Speaker 2: with people you know, like I walked into this inter
Speaker 2: and said to them, I've never managed a project like this.
Speaker 2: This is well outside of my scope. But here is
Speaker 2: why I think I can do it. And just put
Speaker 2: yourself forward. And like we said, the worst thing that's
Speaker 2: going to happen is they're going to reject you. The
Speaker 2: other thing I would say is do your recent make
Speaker 2: sure you research the company, make sure you research the people.
Speaker 2: It's really not that hard. We all sit on our
Speaker 2: phones all the bloody time, jump on LinkedIn, have a look
Speaker 2: at people, and know why you want the job. And
Speaker 2: I think if you do genuinely want the job, you'll
Speaker 2: be able to convey why you want it much easier.
Speaker 2: But yeah, for me, the big one is be yourself.
Speaker 2: Understand yourself, like, understand what your strengths and weaknesses are genuinely,
Speaker 2: not in like a wanky way, you know, not like
Speaker 2: I'm really good with people, like great, but like how
Speaker 2: does that apply specific?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I think, oh god, my big piece
Speaker 2: of advice is James is gonna hate me for saying this.
Speaker 2: Be disagreeable, like, especially if you're a woman. Yeah, be disagreeable.
Speaker 2: You should not be grateful someone's given you a job,
Speaker 2: like I mean, yeah, be grateful because you're being given
Speaker 2: an opportunity, but you deserve that. If you're given a job,
Speaker 2: you deserve that role. You've proven yourself already, so don't
Speaker 2: just take whatever is given to you, Like back yourself,
Speaker 2: negotiate to ask questions. It's I always think that one
Speaker 2: of the things that we forget is candidates is that
Speaker 2: like they're not just interviewing you, you're interviewing them as well,
Speaker 2: Like they need to be right for you. So do
Speaker 2: your research, be yourself, be honest, back yourself, ask questions.
Speaker 2: Has that answered the question? I don't know if I'm
Speaker 2: not so much.
Speaker 1: I think there you go, you're already like, did I
Speaker 1: even answer the question? Was it good enough? But absolutely
Speaker 1: you nailed it.
Speaker 2: It was.
Speaker 1: It's so true. I think we find it, particularly as women. Yeah,
Speaker 1: really hard to balance that really awkward line between assertiveness
Speaker 1: and likability and then particularly being someone like me. I'm
Speaker 1: like so like, I hate confrontation. I need everyone to
Speaker 1: like me. But it's really hard then to say what
Speaker 1: you want because you don't want to, you know, muddy
Speaker 1: the waters. You don't want to tip the boat. You
Speaker 1: don't upset anyone.
Speaker 2: But I think there's also a fine line between you know,
Speaker 2: being disagreeable and being confrontational, being assertive and being aggressive,
Speaker 2: and I think it's finding where your line is. Like
Speaker 2: I know, for example, that my delivery can come across
Speaker 2: as quite aggressive, so I've worked on that kind of
Speaker 2: over the years, so I can still be myself but
Speaker 2: come across in asertive rather than aggressive kind of way.
Speaker 2: And I think we need to change our mindsets as well,
Speaker 2: Like asking for what you deserve doesn't make you confrontational
Speaker 2: or aggressive, it makes you knowing your self worth. Like
Speaker 2: I know I am good at what I do. This
Speaker 2: is the salary that I want or the conditions that
Speaker 2: I want, and if you're not going to offer that,
Speaker 2: then okay, that's fine. But either we're going to negotiate
Speaker 2: on something else or it's not the right role for me.
Speaker 2: That doesn't make you confrontational, it just makes you you.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And another thing I think that happens is like
Speaker 1: you know, coming back to you saying it's okay to
Speaker 1: say no if you get an offer. I think sometimes
Speaker 1: we're flattered by the bare minimum, Like we get flattered
Speaker 1: that we've been asked to do something, so then we
Speaker 1: feel like, well, I should do it because I was
Speaker 1: asked without ever asking, Wait, do I actually want that? Like,
Speaker 1: There's been plenty of things that I've been asked to
Speaker 1: do that I've just it's almost been an automatic yes,
Speaker 1: just because I'm flattered by the offer.
Speaker 2: And that comes down to that gratitude thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'm like, ill, it's not anything in line
Speaker 1: with what I want to do, what I'm good at,
Speaker 1: what I enjoyed, But for some reason, that flattery overrides.
Speaker 2: And women do that more than men. I think there's
Speaker 2: a statistic about women who are disagreeable when it comes
Speaker 2: to like looking for roles, and how much more likely
Speaker 2: they are to get a higher salary or better terms
Speaker 2: and conditions than women who just accept the first offer
Speaker 2: that's made to them. And I think part of the
Speaker 2: reason I've managed to be successful. I've never said that
Speaker 2: out loud.
Speaker 1: I'm so proud of you. I have never heard you
Speaker 1: say that ever.
Speaker 2: Oh God, it's like therapy, whatst.
Speaker 1: Extraordinarily baby, It's you just had me voice memos all
Speaker 1: the time.
Speaker 2: That's like part of the reason that I've managed to
Speaker 2: be successful. I mean, God, I've said it twice that
Speaker 2: I'm disagreeable. Yeah, James, I can tell you about He's like,
Speaker 2: oh yeah, let's talk about being bloodied disagreeable. Is there
Speaker 2: a day that goes by that you're not going to
Speaker 2: disagree with something? I was like, do you want a
Speaker 2: guess person? If you want a guess person, I'm not
Speaker 2: your gal, but you're married to someone else.
Speaker 1: That's why you are such a big inspiration for me,
Speaker 1: because I'm not like that by default, and I need
Speaker 1: to be like that sometimes. And you need to surround
Speaker 1: yourself with people who emulate the things that you don't
Speaker 1: and who will help you guide you to like, not
Speaker 1: change who you are, but fill the gaps of the
Speaker 1: areas where perhaps you're disadvantaging yourself by not just working
Speaker 1: on it. You can work on yourself without changing yourself fundamentally.
Speaker 1: It's okay to be like you know, I think sometimes
Speaker 1: we're very all or nothing. We're like, oh, I need
Speaker 1: to be more loud, so then you totally become someone
Speaker 1: you're not. You don't need to do that. You just
Speaker 1: maybe need to think about where you're losing out because
Speaker 1: of something, and like and Taylor it a little bit
Speaker 1: so that you're not missing out. You have given such valuable,
Speaker 1: extraordinary advice, but it would also be absolutely remossis me
Speaker 1: on this show in particular not to ask a non
Speaker 1: work from lated question. All So, before we wrap up,
Speaker 1: how important is it for you to cultivate your identity
Speaker 1: outside of work?
Speaker 2: I e?
Speaker 1: What is your playta? And this is particularly relevant because
Speaker 1: you do work in an industry like many where your
Speaker 1: spare time to cultivate that side of yourself isn't plentiful.
Speaker 1: Your flexibility to do that isn't as easily, you know,
Speaker 1: easy as it might be for someone who does work
Speaker 1: for themselves. But it's still incredibly important. So how do
Speaker 1: you do that? And who are you like outside of work?
Speaker 2: Who were my outside of work? Maybe you should answer
Speaker 2: this question.
Speaker 1: I know a delight, a pure joy, bitter Elvis in
Speaker 1: there loves the dance floor.
Speaker 2: I do. Actually that is one of my play ta things.
Speaker 2: I love a dance for I hate myself the next
Speaker 2: day after a big night, but also feel like I
Speaker 2: really do need it. That is one of my big things.
Speaker 2: I'm a big social person. So my play day, I mean,
Speaker 2: the first thing would be yeah, friends and family, you
Speaker 2: guys feel my happy cup. I don't have a lot
Speaker 2: of time to see people, and I don't have a
Speaker 2: lot of time to play really, but when I do,
Speaker 2: I try and make the most of every kind of second.
Speaker 2: So the first one, if I may, would definitely be
Speaker 2: hanging out with my friends and family, even if it's
Speaker 2: in little doses, I definitely I walk away feeling revived
Speaker 2: in a way that nothing else kind of does that
Speaker 2: for me. That's the first one. The second one is
Speaker 2: I bloody love reality television, Like, oh I got to
Speaker 2: know this disgusting, disgusting way, Like I could watch reality
Speaker 2: TV all weekend and with like zero shame attached. When
Speaker 2: I met James, he was just like, oh god, reality television,
Speaker 2: Like don't you just how do you watch this? And
Speaker 2: I said to him, my job is so intense. All
Speaker 2: I want to do when I have a second to
Speaker 2: watch TV is to tune out. I don't want to
Speaker 2: watch Bloody the movie Tenet that I have to like
Speaker 2: google what they hell? Just you watch for three hours? Yeah,
Speaker 2: I've watched the movie twice now I still don't fucking
Speaker 2: understand it. I just I don't want to think. I
Speaker 2: just want something that's like entertaining. I like people watching,
Speaker 2: So yeah, I love reality TV. I love to cook.
Speaker 2: My God, I love to cook cookings like meditation for me.
Speaker 2: I love throwing it dinner party, so when I move
Speaker 2: back to Melbourne, we can have lots of dinner parties. Yes,
Speaker 2: it's so exciting. I love event planning, which people think
Speaker 2: is sick and like.
Speaker 1: Seditionive sood at, so good.
Speaker 2: I love an event plan I love planning other people's
Speaker 2: events and my own events.
Speaker 1: You have been a bridesmaid for like eighty five thousand people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, six six times, actually close to eighty five thousand,
Speaker 2: Like it's really close, but like it's close.
Speaker 1: It's in the ballpark in the general vicinity of s
Speaker 1: eighty five thousand. Yeah, but you've planned about eighty five
Speaker 1: thousand events for those people.
Speaker 2: I've also planned about eighty five thousand of my own
Speaker 2: in the lead up to getting married. It's like an extravagance.
Speaker 2: It's like I'm some kind of I think I'm royalty.
Speaker 2: I don't. I just love getting people together, and like
Speaker 2: I think it just ties in with my life of
Speaker 2: being with friends and family, Like it all just kind
Speaker 2: of ties in. And the other thing I love doing
Speaker 2: yet so cooking, having a night out, love a glass wine,
Speaker 2: I love reading, and I think one of the benefits well,
Speaker 2: there was a few kind of silver linings to COVID
Speaker 2: for me, but one of them was reinvigorating my love
Speaker 2: of reading and not like on a tablet like I
Speaker 2: can't deal with kindles and showed like a book like
Speaker 2: a phissy paper book, the paper, the smell. I don't know,
Speaker 2: it's nerdy thing. Maybe I love the smell of the book.
Speaker 2: I love with bookstore. I love spending hours like walking
Speaker 2: around a bookstore.
Speaker 1: Oh my whole like everything I earned in COVID was bookstore.
Speaker 2: Literally. I love the book and rearranging it onto like
Speaker 2: a different.
Speaker 1: You are like my visual merchandiser all over the country.
Speaker 2: It's so many talents lawyer by Davy and by night. Yeah. So,
Speaker 2: and I love reading. I'm I'm an anxious person and
Speaker 2: I just find that it calms my brain. It's certain
Speaker 2: kinds of books, like a thriller disgusting. Why does that
Speaker 2: work for my anxiety? Do not know? It's like watching
Speaker 2: like a crime show and I'm just like go to
Speaker 2: bed and sleep like a baby afterwards, which is so weird.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know you're speaking my language the same way
Speaker 1: that James to you is like IR reality TV. Nick
Speaker 1: is like, E, why do you watch Serial Killers to
Speaker 1: go to sleep? I'm like, you know what, don't question
Speaker 1: your ya, don't question it, just let me go with it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you're reading TV people, that's it. I do
Speaker 2: some self care stuff, but like, honestly, I could like
Speaker 2: never get a facial and be fine if I got
Speaker 2: to see my friends and family and read a book
Speaker 2: and cook a meal and you know, like that they're
Speaker 2: the things that make me happy. And I've become better
Speaker 2: at doing those things over time. I think I didn't
Speaker 2: at the start of my career disasters own. That was
Speaker 2: like there was like zero cat time. It was like
Speaker 2: must burnout, must work harder, must be Harvey specter, female form.
Speaker 1: But that's part of it, right, It's like your part.
Speaker 1: THEA is that it's starting out not knowing what you're
Speaker 1: doing in any area and then slowly, slowly, bit by bit,
Speaker 1: figuring out what works for you and then doing it
Speaker 1: and it I mean, well, well, you know, I suck
Speaker 1: at it. The first thing I said when I got
Speaker 1: on this call was I am so depleted, Like I
Speaker 1: spend my entire life telling other people not to do that.
Speaker 1: And then we rock up and we're like, so, I'm Michelle,
Speaker 1: I'm a human, hay me. But that's like, that's being human.
Speaker 1: I feel like it's better to present reminding everyone that
Speaker 1: we don't all get it right all the time.
Speaker 2: No, and I definitely don't get it right all the time.
Speaker 2: And I have lots and lots of breakdowns. I mean,
Speaker 2: one of the things that has gotten me through my
Speaker 2: career has been crying a lot. Just get it out.
Speaker 2: I have a crying corner at home, like you know
Speaker 2: that scene of the Symptoms where it's like this is
Speaker 2: where I come to cry. That's literally like, yeah, I
Speaker 2: just think we all need to make time for ourselves though,
Speaker 2: because I actually think being a better version of you
Speaker 2: socially or or whatever socially looks like to somebody some
Speaker 2: people don't like people makes you a better professional as well,
Speaker 2: and gives you time and space to think about what
Speaker 2: you want to do and what your next step is
Speaker 2: and who you are and you know, all of those
Speaker 2: existential crisis things that again, when we go back to
Speaker 2: all the time we do.
Speaker 1: Actually, so guys, one of our playsta in our little group,
Speaker 1: which the weirdest thing I'm not in their year level,
Speaker 1: like I just kind of got to do though it's
Speaker 1: so weird, Like I nearly went to your reunion, not mine.
Speaker 1: It was so weird. Anyway, there's like a group of
Speaker 1: us and they're all in one year level. I was
Speaker 1: ear below, but I just kind of like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: just got ad opt into the group. And one of
Speaker 1: the things we love to talk about because we all
Speaker 1: have like these personas that our nerdiness doesn't fully fledge,
Speaker 1: like it's not fully fledgedly fledgingly out and about. But
Speaker 1: when we get together, like just something about it comes out.
Speaker 1: And at your bridal shower the other night, we all
Speaker 1: just were like, you know what, now is the time
Speaker 1: to discuss space as a concept. Let's talk about space,
Speaker 1: yea space time distance like always the existential crisis, but
Speaker 1: we have this super intellectual rationalization of all the things
Speaker 1: we feel and it goes for hours hours.
Speaker 2: And then easily flip into a non intellectual conversation. Absolutely
Speaker 2: also that, yeah, that's kind of play the yay stuff though,
Speaker 2: Like that's the stuff that makes me happy and the
Speaker 2: stuff that I need in my life, you know, I like.
Speaker 1: To get in the space.
Speaker 2: Cuts so excited for their new show I can't even
Speaker 2: tell you.
Speaker 1: I'm like, god, I know I don't relate, but I
Speaker 1: love that for you, good girl.
Speaker 2: I'm god. I love them so much. Like why why
Speaker 2: someone actually said to me? Where was I when someone
Speaker 2: was like you look at me like Kim Kartashi, And
Speaker 2: I was.
Speaker 1: Like did you die?
Speaker 2: Like literally, I told the lady I wanted to marry
Speaker 2: her in a bathroom. I was in a bathroom somewhere
Speaker 2: for sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Nice.
Speaker 2: That tends to me where I have these conversations. Yeah, hot,
Speaker 2: but reality TV. See this is my reality TV thing.
Speaker 2: I played a gay.
Speaker 1: I love it.
Speaker 2: Oh, I have to. I actually wrote them down. Do
Speaker 2: you want me to read them to you?
Speaker 1: Yes? Please?
Speaker 2: Okay, I have too. One is very like career based,
Speaker 2: and I think I've sat it like four trillion times.
Speaker 2: All these courts of people are gonna be like fuck, oh,
Speaker 2: please stop saying that, but I'm going to say it again.
Speaker 2: And one is like what I live my personal life by. Okay,
Speaker 2: so my career one is don't talk yourself out of
Speaker 2: the rooms. You have the right to be. That's a
Speaker 2: big one. I love my favorite. You deserve if you
Speaker 2: are there, you deserve a right to be. There. I
Speaker 2: say this to James all the time and he thinks
Speaker 2: I'm like Oprah. I still love Oprah, But yeah, I
Speaker 2: think that's a that's really it's a really powerful quote.
Speaker 2: If you are in a room, or you think you
Speaker 2: deserve to be in a room, be in the room.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's one. I also love that. You and
Speaker 1: I like we either say trillion, gazillion or five. There's
Speaker 1: like no numbers in between for us. There's only like
Speaker 1: I've said it one trillion times or two times. Of course,
Speaker 1: it's either all or I.
Speaker 2: Say all the time. Like never, I have never narrator
Speaker 2: she has many times, but you Never's like, why are
Speaker 2: you so extreme? I was like, I don't know, but again,
Speaker 2: you know what, if you don't like it, you can leave.
Speaker 2: No one's forcing him to marry again with the extremism.
Speaker 1: It down could just say.
Speaker 2: And anything else you're literally you go straight to if
Speaker 2: you don't like it, you can leave.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we can get a divorce before we're even married.
Speaker 2: Literally, sound like I have a very unhealthy it's a
Speaker 2: very healthy relationship. Everybody.
Speaker 1: It's just we're so excited for you to get married.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, stop it. I know we haven't even
Speaker 2: mentioned that. Everyone. Seventh day, Okay, wedding extravaganza.
Speaker 1: It'll be splashed all over the newspapers. Everyone will see it.
Speaker 1: It's like it's like newspaper.
Speaker 2: My parents have already discussed this. It's stop it. I
Speaker 2: can't excited.
Speaker 1: I'm too excited.
Speaker 2: So to all your listeners who are readers of the
Speaker 2: Neil Scores Moss, yeah, well.
Speaker 1: They're also all going to say if my social media
Speaker 1: will be breaking plates for weeks after.
Speaker 2: So fun. You can just go.
Speaker 1: It's very not related to your wedding. I'm just going
Speaker 1: to do it because I like very cathartic.
Speaker 2: Like if you've ever been to a smashroom, you know
Speaker 2: how good you feel after a smashroom. That's how you
Speaker 2: can be in to breaking plates excited. I took a
Speaker 2: baseball back to a washing machine and it was literally
Speaker 2: ill let out some energy I don't even know I had.
Speaker 2: James's are you okay? My other quote is and another
Speaker 2: one that I like love a lot, and I know
Speaker 2: you've probably mentioned a few times this is not groundbreaking.
Speaker 2: Is the Maya Angelou quote. The people will forget what
Speaker 2: you said, people forget what you did, but people will
Speaker 2: never forget how you made them feel. My big thing
Speaker 2: in life is anytime I see somebody, how do I
Speaker 2: leave that person?
Speaker 1: We're friends?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just think the people that I now have
Speaker 2: in my life in my thirties are all so important
Speaker 2: to me. Do I leave you feeling happy and loved
Speaker 2: and supported and heard and all of those things? And
Speaker 2: if I don't, then I haven't done my job as
Speaker 2: a friend or a sister or a child or whatever. Right.
Speaker 2: I also carry that into my professional life to some degree.
Speaker 2: Sometimes I'm a bitch, but you know that's balance. But yeah,
Speaker 2: they're my two probably my favorite quotes that I genuinely
Speaker 2: I live by, And the first one, in particular when
Speaker 2: it comes to work given this mini series, is one
Speaker 2: that I constantly repeat to myself in situations where I
Speaker 2: feel like I have imposter syndrome, which is often like,
Speaker 2: you have a right to be here, be in the room,
Speaker 2: be present, deliver what you know that you can deliver,
Speaker 2: and walk out knowing that you've done that.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, my love. This was the first of
Speaker 1: the episodes of the miniseries that I've recorded, and I
Speaker 1: kind of feel like I can leave it there, like
Speaker 1: I kind of feel like you were just so amazing
Speaker 1: and yeah, it's just it's a mini series of one.
Speaker 1: Everyone just.
Speaker 2: Back next week drunk with more lectures than advice.
Speaker 1: We will pick a different theme every week within the
Speaker 1: mini series and that will be the show.
Speaker 2: Yeah, next week, Yelvis, let's talk about moments where your
Speaker 2: mom your mom let you go to primary school? Dress
Speaker 2: is Elvis?
Speaker 1: Let's talk an in depth analysis by CZA. Thank you
Speaker 1: so much, my darling. This was extraordinary. You are an
Speaker 1: amazing human being. I'm so grateful to have you in
Speaker 1: my life and so so grateful that you could share
Speaker 1: so much of your wisdom with the apehood.
Speaker 2: Very grateful to be here, so thank you