Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mama Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
Speaker 2: Mom and Me are out Loud.
Speaker 3: It's what women are actually talking about on Monday, the
Speaker 3: twenty second of July.
Speaker 1: I'm Holly Wayne Wright, I'm Meya Friedman.
Speaker 4: I'm Jessie Stevens, and my weekend was made by looking
Speaker 4: at where out louders are listening. There were so many
Speaker 4: outlouders and tractors as few assumed.
Speaker 1: So many on tractors. There was a drama in the
Speaker 1: out Louders Facebook group because someone posted a photo of
Speaker 1: themselves in the shower where they have a coffee nima
Speaker 1: while listening, and that proved to be controversial.
Speaker 4: Some people said, don't think it's appropriate. Others thought it
Speaker 4: was very funny, very funny.
Speaker 3: We had doctors offices, we had people obviously cooking and folding,
Speaker 3: washing and all those boring things that people don't like doing.
Speaker 2: But so many regional outlouders.
Speaker 4: And so many around the world that was really exciting too.
Speaker 4: So please keep tagging us on the Mummeer out loud
Speaker 4: Instagram page.
Speaker 5: We are loving watching, and look.
Speaker 4: We've got a few that we really really like and
Speaker 4: we'll be sending out signed copies to the winner.
Speaker 3: Those lucky, lucky people.
Speaker 5: Lucky people sign copies of our books.
Speaker 2: To the winner on the show today.
Speaker 3: It's been a quiet few days in US election news,
Speaker 3: not really just kidding.
Speaker 1: Joe Biden got a weekend.
Speaker 2: I know, we did get a weekend.
Speaker 3: And then Joe Biden very thoughtfully announced that he was
Speaker 3: stepping down, just at the perfect time for us to
Speaker 3: be able to circle our American politics wagons yep, and
Speaker 3: bring you what's next.
Speaker 4: And of course Mayor is writing her thank you note
Speaker 4: to Joe Biden. To all the out louders who are wondering,
Speaker 4: I'm sure we'll get into that.
Speaker 3: Also, the workplace mistake that ruined an awful lot of
Speaker 3: Friday afternoons. And yes, we are living in a world
Speaker 3: where a repentant movie star has just given a high
Speaker 3: profile interview to deny being a cannibal. Welcome to the
Speaker 3: comeback of Army Hammer.
Speaker 1: But first, Mesad, my favorite story from the weekend, in
Speaker 1: case you missed it, is that Dubai Princess has declared
Speaker 1: her divorce on Instagram. Married Just over a year ago,
Speaker 1: Shaker Mahra posted on Instagram, dear husband, as you are
Speaker 1: occupied with other companions, I hereby declare our divorce. I
Speaker 1: divorce you. I divorce you, and I divorce you. Take
Speaker 1: care your ex wife. The only thing that could have
Speaker 1: made it better as if it was on the notes app.
Speaker 1: Who is this queen you ask? She's thirty years old.
Speaker 1: She's a daughter and one of the twenty six children
Speaker 1: of Sheik Muhammad, who is the Prime Minister and Vice
Speaker 1: President of the United Arab Emirates. So the reason she
Speaker 1: said I divorced you, I divorced you, and I divorce you.
Speaker 1: There was a story on Mamma Mia that unpacked this story,
Speaker 1: which will link to in the show notes. But it
Speaker 1: refers to a tradition that's not widely practiced. It's called
Speaker 1: to luck, and in some Muslim communities it refers to
Speaker 1: the right of a man to divorce his wife, and
Speaker 1: he can do it either verbally or in writing by
Speaker 1: just saying I divorced you three times.
Speaker 6: Now.
Speaker 1: It doesn't go the other way. Women can't divorce their
Speaker 1: husbands by this same sort of ancient tradition, so it
Speaker 1: was more symbolic than anything else. But I looked a
Speaker 1: little bit further into this very interesting woman. She got
Speaker 1: married a year ago to this dude, and she gave
Speaker 1: birth to their first child ten weeks ago.
Speaker 4: And did you see the caption on that image of
Speaker 4: the child. I went back, as I need to look
Speaker 4: at the Instagram activity.
Speaker 1: Well, I would, of course immediately I went back to
Speaker 1: make sure first of course, that it was her legitimate account.
Speaker 1: It is on her account that she posted that she
Speaker 1: has almost nine hundred thousand followers, and there are no
Speaker 1: photos of him because they've each deleted all the photos
Speaker 1: of each other, including of their lavish wedding, from their
Speaker 1: respective Instagram accounts.
Speaker 4: Classic breakup. They've unfollowed each other. That's when you know
Speaker 4: it's done. And she wrote this is about six weeks
Speaker 4: ago with the baby. She just wrote just the two
Speaker 4: of us, which was weeks ago, Yeah, which might have looked,
Speaker 4: you know, out of context, just like a sweet little
Speaker 4: picture with the newborn.
Speaker 5: But now it's very loaded.
Speaker 1: I wanted to know more about the husband, or the
Speaker 1: ex husband as he will soon be. His name's Sheik
Speaker 1: Mana al Maktoum, and he's widely known for his involvement
Speaker 1: in various successful ventures. He has made a name for
Speaker 1: himself as a successful entrepreneur and passionate traveler, among other things.
Speaker 7: It would seem this is an ABC News special report.
Speaker 5: Good afternoon, I'm Rachel Scott at ABC headquarters here in
Speaker 5: New York.
Speaker 1: We are coming on the air at this hour with
Speaker 1: breaking news.
Speaker 4: President Biden has just announced that he is ending his
Speaker 4: reelection bid.
Speaker 8: Biden wrote, quote that it has been the greatest honor
Speaker 8: of my life to serve as your president.
Speaker 7: And while it has been my intention to seek reelection,
Speaker 7: I believe it.
Speaker 8: Is in the best interest of my party and the
Speaker 8: country for me to stand down and to focus solely
Speaker 8: on fulfilling my duties as president for the remainder of
Speaker 8: my term.
Speaker 6: The only thing hotter than the temperature here in the
Speaker 6: end the United States right now is the heat of
Speaker 6: the conversation about what's been happening. We've used the word
Speaker 6: unprecedented so many times, but we really are in unprecedented
Speaker 6: territory here with this.
Speaker 3: On Saturday afternoon, Joe Biden called Steve Ricketti, one of
Speaker 3: his closest advisors, and told him that he needed to
Speaker 3: come to the Biden Holiday House straight away and bring
Speaker 3: with him chief strategist Mike Donnillan. The reason Biden's at
Speaker 3: the family beach house are not at work in the
Speaker 3: White House is that he's sick with COVID. And you
Speaker 3: might have seen that last week. His staff went straight there,
Speaker 3: wearing their masks and giving the President of the United
Speaker 3: States a wide berth and they began to game plan
Speaker 3: out what was broadly inevitable, but until Sunday afternoon US time,
Speaker 3: certainly not a done deal. Biden, under immense pressure from
Speaker 3: his party, his country, and yes us here at momamere
Speaker 3: out loud. We're very influential. The Biden family, as I'm
Speaker 3: sure you know, was.
Speaker 1: Dual pressuring him, maybe maybe not.
Speaker 3: Was stepping down as the presidential candidate for twenty twenty four.
Speaker 3: It was not going to be eighty one year old
Speaker 3: Hymn taking on Trump. In November, The New York Times
Speaker 3: reports that on Sunday morning, he called three people, Vice
Speaker 3: President Kamala Harris, his White House chief of staff, and
Speaker 3: his campaign chairwoman and told them, but they didn't tell
Speaker 3: anyone else on his staff until one minute before he
Speaker 3: made the announcement to the world on social media. On Sunday,
Speaker 3: he got on a zoom call. That's like when your
Speaker 3: boss tells you to get on a zoom call on
Speaker 3: Sunday morning, you're like, Ah. He got on a zoom
Speaker 3: call with the rest of his staff and he read
Speaker 3: them in his raspy, COVID affected voice, his letter of resignation.
Speaker 3: He thanked them for their service, and then he pushed
Speaker 3: go on posting the letter to social media. And then
Speaker 3: he said to his team, apparently, come to me with
Speaker 3: the work and let's get it done. He posted at
Speaker 3: one forty six pm.
Speaker 2: The reaction was swift.
Speaker 3: A surprise but not a shock, is how some described it,
Speaker 3: referring more to the timing and the manner of it
Speaker 3: than the announcement, which everybody's been kind of hoping was
Speaker 3: going to come for a while. And the Democrats immediately
Speaker 3: rolled out there, Joe is a hero, What a wonderful president,
Speaker 3: What a selfless act? This has been tributes and Trump's
Speaker 3: Republicans immediately went on the attack, questioning who is and
Speaker 3: who has been running the country, calling for Biden's immediate
Speaker 3: resignation as president, and pointing hard at the perceived deception
Speaker 3: of the Democrats for keeping Biden's condition secret for so long.
Speaker 3: Donald Trump said, bless him. He's always so reasonable, isn't he.
Speaker 1: I bet he just said, I wish you well, old mate.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I hope you recover stiffly.
Speaker 3: Yes, What did he say that crooked Joe Biden was
Speaker 3: not fit to run for president? He's certainly not fit
Speaker 3: to serve and he never was explamation Mark. He only
Speaker 3: attained the position of president by lies, fake news in
Speaker 3: capital letters, and by not leaving his basement. All those
Speaker 3: around him, all those around him, including his doctor and
Speaker 3: the media, knew that he wasn't capable of being president,
Speaker 3: and he wasn't an Now, look what he's done to
Speaker 3: our country, with millions of people coming across our border,
Speaker 3: totally unchecked and unvetted, many from prisons, mental institutions, and
Speaker 3: record numbers of terrorists. We will suffer greatly because of
Speaker 3: his president, but we will remedy the damage he has
Speaker 3: done very quickly make America great again. Maya Jesse, what
Speaker 3: were your feelings on waking up to this news.
Speaker 1: I was relieved, of course, I was also quite surprised
Speaker 1: because it was just it had become this incredible stalemate,
Speaker 1: and I was girding as many Democrats were. Not that
Speaker 1: I'm a Democrat, I live in a different country, but
Speaker 1: I was getting monary incensed that an entire party, and indeed,
Speaker 1: potentially an entire democratic system, was being held hostage by
Speaker 1: this man who was said to be stubborn and digging
Speaker 1: in and angry that people were betraying him. And it's like, dude,
Speaker 1: it's not about you.
Speaker 4: I thought the whole democratic system was being held hostage
Speaker 4: by his wife, Jill.
Speaker 1: Well, that's true because I think if Jill had said,
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you put it out, Jesse, Because if
Speaker 1: Jill had said, Joe, it's time to go stop, Joe
Speaker 1: would have been so. But if Jill had said three
Speaker 1: weeks a year ago, when he decided he was going
Speaker 1: to run, Joe, sweetie, no, then we wouldn't be here.
Speaker 4: So the argument that we've been having for weeks is
Speaker 4: whether or not Jill actually had any power in that.
Speaker 4: I mean, now that he has stepped down, are we
Speaker 4: going to give her a little bit of credit that
Speaker 4: perhaps perhaps Jill has actually been in his earl along.
Speaker 4: They've been in the holiday house, they've been having maybe
Speaker 4: some chats, maybe some walks along the beach, maybe some
Speaker 4: bedside conversations.
Speaker 1: She posted a love heart emoji you know, the double
Speaker 1: love hearts yep, and the sound you can hear also
Speaker 1: is Donald Trump frantically googling what rhymes with Kamala.
Speaker 3: That brings us to what's next. Over the past few weeks,
Speaker 3: since that fateful debate, it's been widely said that there
Speaker 3: were two options for the Dems to replace Biden. Either
Speaker 3: Biden annoints Harris, making her a pretty sure shoey for
Speaker 3: the nomination going into the convention in three weeks time,
Speaker 3: similar to how we've just seen Trump right at the
Speaker 3: Republican Convention being chosen even though obviously he was chosen
Speaker 3: a long time ago. Or the idea was a few
Speaker 3: candidates emerge and they run into the convention with like
Speaker 3: open debates and sort of campaigning, and then at the
Speaker 3: convention they pick someone, which is apparently how it used
Speaker 3: to be done in the olden days but hasn't been
Speaker 3: for ages. It very much looks like the former is happening.
Speaker 3: And although he didn't do it instantly, he did keep
Speaker 3: Kamala hanging for half an hour. Biden has endorsed her
Speaker 3: as his pick for the nominee. She of course, is
Speaker 3: the vice president, and although she's been publicly backing Biden
Speaker 3: in the last few weeks, she has also been conspicuously
Speaker 3: visible and giving some pretty good speeches in a way
Speaker 3: that the president is certainly not able to do at
Speaker 3: the minute. Here she is a few days ago talking
Speaker 3: about the Republican Convention and its claims to be the
Speaker 3: Party of Unity.
Speaker 9: You cannot claim you stand unity if you are intent
Speaker 9: on taking reproductive freedoms from the people of America and
Speaker 9: the women of America, trying to ban abortion nationwide as
Speaker 9: they do, and restrict access to IVF and contraception as
Speaker 9: their plan calls for.
Speaker 1: She responded to the announcement that Joe Biden was stepping
Speaker 1: aside by posting on behalf of the American people. I
Speaker 1: thank Joe Biden for his extraordinary leadership as President of
Speaker 1: the United States. I'm honored to have the President's endorsement,
Speaker 1: and my intention is to earn and win this nomination.
Speaker 1: I will do everything in my power to unite the
Speaker 1: Democratic Party and unite our nation to defeat Donald Trump
Speaker 1: and his extreme Project twenty twenty five agenda. If you're
Speaker 1: with me at a donation right now at my link
Speaker 1: in bio. Few things about that. First of all, the
Speaker 1: money's going to start coming back again. The donation tap
Speaker 1: will be turned on. Pretty much everybody, every major and
Speaker 1: minor donor in the Democratic Party had switched the tap off.
Speaker 4: Read and tell me if this is true or not.
Speaker 4: That if he endorses Kamala Harris, then the donations can
Speaker 4: go to her. But if it's a completely different nominee,
Speaker 4: then they have to raise money themselves.
Speaker 3: If it's a completely different nominee, the money goes back
Speaker 3: to the party.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and then it's complicated.
Speaker 3: To the nominee in a new way. But because the
Speaker 3: money was donated to Biden Harris, it's kamel as money.
Speaker 1: So there's about one hundred and fifty million dollars in
Speaker 1: an account. The Republicans are going to try and block
Speaker 1: that easy transition. They're already working to make that happen
Speaker 1: in that grab. In her statement, the two things that
Speaker 1: are interesting. Instead of Joe Biden, who's only been able
Speaker 1: to talk about his own mental acuity over the last
Speaker 1: little while, she named two things that are really really
Speaker 1: strong points of vulnerability for Trump and the Republican Party.
Speaker 1: The first is women's reproductive rights and abortion, which Joe
Speaker 1: Biden has really not been able to articulate at all.
Speaker 1: And the second is Project twenty twenty five. Hole, can
Speaker 1: you explain what that is?
Speaker 3: Yes, So it was very clever of Harris to mention
Speaker 3: straight off the bat in her first post, because if
Speaker 3: you have not heard of Project twenty twenty five, turned
Speaker 3: to your teenager in your life and ask them about it, right,
Speaker 3: because it is a story that's now blown up into
Speaker 3: the mainstream, but it's been bubbling away in places like
Speaker 3: TikTok for age. It's my fourteen year old knows about
Speaker 3: Project twenty twenty five what it actually is. And the
Speaker 3: ABC's four corners are doing a great two power on
Speaker 3: Trump that goes into this. I talked about it a
Speaker 3: bit on Friday, but it's basically this plan that a
Speaker 3: sort of cohort of quite right as in right leaning Republicans,
Speaker 3: mostly MAGA people have been working on putting in place
Speaker 3: that in theory, means that when Donald Trump, if Donald
Speaker 3: Trump gets elected president on day one, he can go
Speaker 3: into lots of organizations within the government. Because remember, to
Speaker 3: get anything done in any government takes a long time.
Speaker 3: You've got all the levels of civil service you've got
Speaker 3: to get through. The idea is having right leaning, sympathetic
Speaker 3: Trump Conservatives ready to go in all those institutions turfing
Speaker 3: out the people who are there.
Speaker 2: Jd.
Speaker 3: Vance has said he wants to fire all the mid
Speaker 3: level bureau crats in America on day one of Trump
Speaker 3: presidency to get the Trump sympathists in there, and then
Speaker 3: the idea is they can go hard on enacting things
Speaker 3: they really want to do, like a nationwide abortion Bannon,
Speaker 3: as Harris mentioned in that.
Speaker 2: Speech, not just about abortion.
Speaker 3: It's also even about contraception IVF coming after same sex marriage,
Speaker 3: marriage equality, lifting, lots of restrictions on where you can
Speaker 3: drill for oil, lots.
Speaker 5: Of very import that sounds like tyranny.
Speaker 3: To be honest and even handed about this, Trump has
Speaker 3: begun to distance himself a bit from the Project twenty
Speaker 3: twenty five thing, and so there are little bits of
Speaker 3: debate about how legit it really is, but it's definitely happening.
Speaker 3: The ABC's documentary got a lot of people on the record,
Speaker 3: and have a copy of the whole documentation watch.
Speaker 1: The first thing he will do is change that you
Speaker 1: can only be president for two terms.
Speaker 4: You say that like he's a shoe in and I
Speaker 4: would like to I am feeling optimistic relief.
Speaker 3: So let me do tiny bit about camera and then
Speaker 3: we can go to how excited we are or are
Speaker 3: not about this now. So if you just need a
Speaker 3: very quick reminder on who Harris is, she's fifty nine,
Speaker 3: which is so.
Speaker 2: Young in comparison. He's a gen XA.
Speaker 3: She is a politician from California who has a really
Speaker 3: long legal career. So she was the DA for San Francisco.
Speaker 3: She was the Attorney General for California. So she's a prosecutor, right,
Speaker 3: which is why she's very good at arguing. She's married
Speaker 3: to fellow lawyer Doug Emhoff. She has two adult step
Speaker 3: children with him, and she famously said they call her
Speaker 3: Mamola when she was sworn in. She's the first woman,
Speaker 3: obviously VP, the first Black American and the first Indian
Speaker 3: American to take the role. The people who love her
Speaker 3: say she's great because she knows how to get shit done,
Speaker 3: that she's progressive but tough on crime, and with her
Speaker 3: legal history, she has the chops to be aggressive in
Speaker 3: her opposition to him. She's young, she's energetic, and she
Speaker 3: could run for two terms. The people who are not
Speaker 3: so keen say that she has disappointed in the VP role,
Speaker 3: that she's not very good off the cuff, and she's
Speaker 3: not what they call a performance politician, which can be
Speaker 3: a problem when you're up against a man who is
Speaker 3: all performance, which is what Donald Trump is. So Mia
Speaker 3: and Jesse, are we excited and are we excited about Harris?
Speaker 4: I'm excited And I think that this is a case.
Speaker 4: I remember thinking this about Joe Biden a while back,
Speaker 4: that it was a man who met his moment. And
Speaker 4: I think that this has the potential to be a
Speaker 4: candidate who's met her moment. Because she is a prosecutor
Speaker 4: who is up against a convicted felon, there's a really
Speaker 4: easy campaign line. She's hard on crime, and she always
Speaker 4: has been. That's part of her history. So she's a
Speaker 4: Democrat who's hard on crime, which it will appeal to
Speaker 4: a certain centrist Republican. And with even what Trump said
Speaker 4: about immigration and crime and terrorism and blah blah, whether
Speaker 4: or not that's true, Kamala actually has the history and
Speaker 4: the qualifications to say I know how to fix this.
Speaker 4: I think Kamala at her absolute best. I've been listening
Speaker 4: to clips from her exchanges with Brett Kavanagh. When she
Speaker 4: is in her element, she is very, very good. And
Speaker 4: I've heard analysts who are a lot smarter than me
Speaker 4: say she's great at the specific. She's really good on
Speaker 4: a point. She's really good at legislation, she's really good
Speaker 4: at pressing something. What she's not great at And when
Speaker 4: people say she's not a great performance politician, she's not
Speaker 4: necessarily someone who can stand on stage and deliver this rousing,
Speaker 4: exciting broad strokes speech about the future. That's not something
Speaker 4: they've seen from her like Obama.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: And she's not particularly Trump yeah. And she's not particularly
Speaker 4: interested in a personal narrative. So there's this great profile
Speaker 4: that was written, I think, in The New Yorker about
Speaker 4: her a few years back. She said, I don't feel
Speaker 4: comfortable talking about myself. That's not what she finds interesting.
Speaker 3: Is also rather start contrast to somebody else.
Speaker 5: So she's great when she has a job to do.
Speaker 4: But I also heard someone say, who's a longtime adviser
Speaker 4: of hers, one thing that drives her crazy is getting
Speaker 4: reduced to a demographics stereotype. It is going to be
Speaker 4: enormously symbolic to have a candidate up who's the first
Speaker 4: female woman of color who's potentially president of the United States.
Speaker 4: To her, I don't think that's going to be the
Speaker 4: most interesting thing. She's very much like, I deserve this,
Speaker 4: I'm qualified for this, and I have a lot of
Speaker 4: work to do.
Speaker 1: I don't know if she says I deserve this, but
Speaker 1: I think it was important that she said I want
Speaker 1: to earn this nomination.
Speaker 5: What do you think of that mean?
Speaker 1: It means that she's not accepting it as a leydown Mazet.
Speaker 1: She's not accepting it as a foregone conclusion. She knows
Speaker 1: because it's true, she does have to work, and currently,
Speaker 1: you know, reports are that she's of course working the phones.
Speaker 1: She's already got the endorsement of the Clintons, of Pete
Speaker 1: Boodage Edge of Gavin Newsom, who is another considered both
Speaker 1: of them were considered to be front runners if it
Speaker 1: was going to be an open convention.
Speaker 4: The convention this is this is where I could see
Speaker 4: things going really wrong, right is if this breaks into
Speaker 4: all out chaos and then you have a whole lot
Speaker 4: of nominees come forward and go I want to I
Speaker 4: want it, then what can happen is that you get
Speaker 4: this infighting. We've seen this in Australia a little bit,
Speaker 4: but then you've got a lack of unity, a lack
Speaker 4: of narrative.
Speaker 5: The Republicans jump on that. Do you see a world
Speaker 5: in which that happens.
Speaker 1: I did before, but I don't now because I think
Speaker 1: that all the senior Democrats are working behind the scenes,
Speaker 1: and they were working behind the scenes to engineer Biden
Speaker 1: to step aside without publicly humiliating him and holding a
Speaker 1: press conference, and now they will work on what's the
Speaker 1: best thing for the party at this point, because what
Speaker 1: you describe is the American political system, but usually it
Speaker 1: happens like two years before an election. And I actually
Speaker 1: think even though this is highly unusual and unprecedented, et cetera, etc.
Speaker 1: And it seemed like the Republican convention last week, in contrast,
Speaker 1: was like almost a victory rally four months too soon.
Speaker 1: So if they've got a vulnerability, it's that they've peaked
Speaker 1: too early. Here's what I think is going to happen
Speaker 1: from here, and here's where I think her strengths and
Speaker 1: her weaknesses. The most important thing, remember is getting people
Speaker 1: interested enough to go out and vote. Now again, I
Speaker 1: don't vote but a lot of people were feeling completely despondent.
Speaker 1: I've got to choose between Joe Biden and Donald Trump.
Speaker 1: I'm not excited about that. Now suddenly women have a
Speaker 1: reason to get out. African Americans, some of whom, of course,
Speaker 1: are responsive to Trump, who's trying to say who's the
Speaker 1: unity candidate, they are likely to be more engaged. But
Speaker 1: what's going to be interesting. All you needed to know
Speaker 1: is that the Trump campaign really wanted Joe Biden to stay.
Speaker 1: I were just hoping, hoping, hoping that he was going
Speaker 1: to stay. Because this makes things different. What I think
Speaker 1: this is going to expose, and what I think we
Speaker 1: all have to be ready for in the next few months,
Speaker 1: is that it is going to get incredibly ugly because
Speaker 1: when he feels challenged, Donald Trump will go at her race,
Speaker 1: and he will go at her gender. It will go
Speaker 1: back to that awful awfulness of when he was running
Speaker 1: against Hillary, which we didn't see as much when he
Speaker 1: was running against Joe Biden because he was going up
Speaker 1: against another white so he doesn't automatically reach for the
Speaker 1: most disgusting form of abuse.
Speaker 4: Well, already we're seeing the seeds of questioning about her heritage.
Speaker 4: So because both of her parents weren't born in the US.
Speaker 4: One was born in Jamaica and one was born in India.
Speaker 4: There's remember the Obama thing about him not being the
Speaker 4: birth is exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like the equivalent of but her emails. What
Speaker 1: is also going to be interesting internally is that because
Speaker 1: she's a candidate of color, what's little known about JD.
Speaker 1: Vance is that his wife is the daughter of Indian immigrants.
Speaker 1: So once he starts persecuting Kamala Harris based on her
Speaker 1: race and her Indian heritage, which he will surely, that's
Speaker 1: going to make for some slightly awkward conversations around the
Speaker 1: Vance dinner table because his children are the grandchildren of
Speaker 1: Indian immigrants.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but Vance is pretty nationalistic himself, right, and he's
Speaker 3: all about heroing the white working class, So he plays
Speaker 3: that low. There's a dog whistle we have to listen
Speaker 3: out for. I mean, there's so many potential dog whistles
Speaker 3: a Harris. But when people say she's not a performance politician,
Speaker 3: think about women in politics. The same thing was said
Speaker 3: about Clinton, the same thing was said about Julia Gillard
Speaker 3: is they're like head girls, Like they work really hard.
Speaker 2: Because they've had to work really effing.
Speaker 3: Hard, much harder than lots of blokes who would have
Speaker 3: waltzed into the kind of high profile, you know, jobs
Speaker 3: that they've done that they're often kind of criticized for
Speaker 3: being too studious, serious, good at policy, good at detail,
Speaker 3: good at getting shit done, and often that gets criticized
Speaker 3: as being like, they're not very good. They're not really inspiring,
Speaker 3: are they. They're not really good orators. They're not orators.
Speaker 3: They're not really very great at performing, like a Trump,
Speaker 3: you know, who can't organize a piss up in a
Speaker 3: brewery but is really good on a stage full of
Speaker 3: rabid enthusiasts. So I think you want to watch for
Speaker 3: some of that kind of unspoken sexism that even comes
Speaker 3: from within the Democrats. Around Harris. It's like, well, she's
Speaker 3: a bit boring. It's like she would say she's a
Speaker 3: bit boring because she's been getting a lot of shit
Speaker 3: done and that, you know, the press don't want to
Speaker 3: come and see her at town hall meetings in Michigan
Speaker 3: or whatever, working on actual projects that help people. So
Speaker 3: it's going to be really interesting to see what they
Speaker 3: do about the razzle dazzle effect. But yeah, I think
Speaker 3: it's suddenly got a lot more interesting. Democrats have got
Speaker 3: the narrative back.
Speaker 1: Remember also, when you're vice president, you're not allowed to shine. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're not allowed to outshine the president. Everything I know
Speaker 1: about US politics vice presidents I know from VEEP, of course,
Speaker 1: And that's the ongoing gag that you've got to be good,
Speaker 1: but you can't be better than the president. And you've
Speaker 1: had a president who's been pretty much invisible for the
Speaker 1: last four years, so she has had to play it down.
Speaker 1: And as we've discussed many times, what makes you good
Speaker 1: at being elected is not necessarily what makes you good
Speaker 1: at running a country. So Donald Trump is very good
Speaker 1: at being elected. But I think things just got a
Speaker 1: whole lot more interesting. You're right.
Speaker 4: This is a fast evolving story, as we saw this morning.
Speaker 4: To keep across the latest headlines, listen to our twice
Speaker 4: daily news podcast, The Quickie. We're gonna pop a link
Speaker 4: in the show notes Tomorrow's deep Down. It's all about
Speaker 4: what will happen next, so tune in listen.
Speaker 9: People can debate on style points, but ultimately this election
Speaker 9: and who is the president of the United States has
Speaker 9: to be about substance.
Speaker 1: O the out loud for many people, Friday afternoon was
Speaker 1: ruined thanks to one workplace mistake by someone. We don't
Speaker 1: know who it was.
Speaker 5: I'd love to know who it was.
Speaker 1: I think that their performance review probably won't be great
Speaker 1: this year. As a result of a malfunction in some
Speaker 1: software made by a company called CrowdStrike, airport's, banks, media organizations, supermarkets, retailers,
Speaker 1: and many out louders were among the organizations and individuals
Speaker 1: whose lives were disrupted thanks to Microsoft's global outage. Now
Speaker 1: you may have heard was it Microsoft? Was it CrowdStrike?
Speaker 1: What happened is that there was a faulty software update
Speaker 1: that was sent to many computers and devices around the world.
Speaker 1: Pretty standard software updates happened and all the time. I
Speaker 1: just did one this morning, and it was provided by
Speaker 1: the cybersecurity firm CrowdStrike. And this update forced Windows based
Speaker 1: computers to basically crash and show what we all know
Speaker 1: as the blue screen of death. Here is CrowdStrike CEO
Speaker 1: George Kurtz.
Speaker 10: That update had a software bug in it and caused
Speaker 10: an issue with the Microsoft operating system. And we identified
Speaker 10: this very quickly and remediated the issue, and as systems
Speaker 10: come back online as they're rebooted, they're coming up and
Speaker 10: they're working, and now we are working with each and
Speaker 10: every customer to make sure that we can bring them
Speaker 10: back online. That was the extent of an issue. The
Speaker 10: issue in terms of a bug that was.
Speaker 11: Related to our update, as we said, that was the
Speaker 11: CrowdStrike CEO George Kurtz, But the president of that company
Speaker 11: is actually a Melbourne man called Michael Santonis.
Speaker 1: It's been said that this incident is the largest IT
Speaker 1: outage in history. Microsoft estimate that eight point five million
Speaker 1: individual devices were hit by the outage and some of
Speaker 1: the ways in which it impacted big and small. Triple
Speaker 1: J presenters were forced to manually play the news theme
Speaker 1: to air by holding up a phone to the microphone.
Speaker 1: Oh bless, I love this, it's needs must people found
Speaker 1: ways to get shut up Channel tens. The project wasn't
Speaker 1: even sure if it would make it to air.
Speaker 11: What am I saying?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 1: This is what happens when the systems go down.
Speaker 9: Just weird text sort of appears on that.
Speaker 5: We got a shot of a camera so you can
Speaker 5: see how the coming to attack me.
Speaker 9: Like, so, what's happened.
Speaker 1: Is I started reading it and then the thing just
Speaker 1: told me to go back to the start and read
Speaker 1: it again.
Speaker 2: That's right, So there you go.
Speaker 1: Anyway, supermarkets were accepting cash only sales with f pos down,
Speaker 1: and a lot of people, even over the weekend, could
Speaker 1: not pay with anything other than cash at supermarkets. Remember cash. Airports,
Speaker 1: of course, were in complete chaos. Some airlines were unaffected,
Speaker 1: but many were, and some of these airlines had to
Speaker 1: actually write people's boarding passes like, I don't know, here's
Speaker 1: a post it note to get on the plane. Oh
Speaker 1: my gosh.
Speaker 4: There were more serious ones in that people couldn't pay
Speaker 4: for petrol, which just meant they were kind of stuck.
Speaker 4: Police and fire systems in Australia were affected, as well
Speaker 4: as nine to one one lines in the US. A
Speaker 4: lot of flights had to ground in the US as well,
Speaker 4: and in Britain some doctors couldn't access the NHS systems,
Speaker 4: so it got very close to seriously affecting people's lives.
Speaker 4: It didn't, and that's what I think that there was
Speaker 4: a moment. There's this movie called Leave the World Behind,
Speaker 4: which I watched over the break, which has Julia Roberts
Speaker 4: in it. Weird movie. Really enjoyed it. Bit sci fi,
Speaker 4: bit sci fi bit by.
Speaker 2: The Obamas, you know, little fact.
Speaker 4: It was a little bit this, And that's what I
Speaker 4: think we all wondered when we first saw it. It
Speaker 4: was like a plane's going to fall out of the air.
Speaker 5: I don't know. And this is the thing. You just
Speaker 5: explained that.
Speaker 4: And I would like to interrogate how much of it
Speaker 4: you actually understand, because I've read a lot about this.
Speaker 4: I don't understand what the grid is, where it is,
Speaker 4: what button went wrong?
Speaker 1: I do understand. So this is like a component part.
Speaker 1: So you made a meal, and the provider of the
Speaker 1: salt when oh, we've had a problem at the factory.
Speaker 1: That salt's actually bad. Everyone that used that salt to
Speaker 1: make their meal and have it in their pantry has
Speaker 1: a bad meal and gets food poisoning.
Speaker 4: And here's the problem with the salt, right, which is
Speaker 4: what a bunch of experts have come out and said,
Speaker 4: we have become so centralized that it is a tiny
Speaker 4: portion of people who now own and operate I'm gonna
Speaker 4: say all the world's Internet.
Speaker 5: I'm not sure if that's right, but.
Speaker 4: Certainly on the salt, all the salt, right, So all
Speaker 4: the salt is owned by the same people. So then
Speaker 4: when we go, oh, there's an issue with the salt,
Speaker 4: it's not affecting two percent of the population.
Speaker 5: It's affecting everyone.
Speaker 2: Because salts in everything and everything.
Speaker 5: Salt is in everything, and nothing's good without salt.
Speaker 1: And sometimes you don't know what salts in. So like
Speaker 1: we were like mum and me, and we were like,
Speaker 1: is our whole system down? Yes, Mum and me are gone.
Speaker 1: We didn't use salts, so we were.
Speaker 3: Okay, this is the thing about this, and your point
Speaker 3: is absolutely right, Jesse. Is whenever these kind of big
Speaker 3: outages happen or a big crash happens, we're all reminded
Speaker 3: how reliant we are obviously on digital everything, and that
Speaker 3: for a minute freaks us out, and then we just
Speaker 3: go back to it because like that's the world now.
Speaker 5: Because TikTok has new video.
Speaker 3: Yeah exactly, But also we're all entirely reliant on something
Speaker 3: that we don't understand even a little bit. So it's
Speaker 3: you kind of go, oh, well, that was unfortunate salt
Speaker 3: and move on.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And the idea that we are one button push
Speaker 4: away from utter and total chaos is something that tech
Speaker 4: experts have now said all right, So this was an
Speaker 4: ominous look at what might happen if this was done
Speaker 4: on purpose. And we've heard a lot about cyber attacks,
Speaker 4: and obviously there's been a bunch that have happened in
Speaker 4: the last year or so.
Speaker 1: And the good news is that this wasn't that, and
Speaker 1: this was a cyber attack.
Speaker 5: This was just human ariism.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but I saw or the Aba Seed wrote this
Speaker 4: serves as a dress rehearsal for more sinister possibilities. For example,
Speaker 4: I was reading about natural disasters and solo storms. I
Speaker 4: don't know what a solar storm is, but something about satellites.
Speaker 4: I don't know where the satellites are. I think they're
Speaker 4: in the space. But if you go to space and
Speaker 4: destroy a satellite, then you could get portions of the
Speaker 4: world completely off the grinding in an instant.
Speaker 2: This is just seven. You need to stop giving the
Speaker 2: bad people ideas.
Speaker 3: This is this is one of the things that's been
Speaker 3: really interesting coming off the back of this conversation. So
Speaker 3: for a lot of people, it was just a bad day, right.
Speaker 3: I got a little glimpse into this and that I
Speaker 3: was having a little mini break with my family at
Speaker 3: the end of last week.
Speaker 2: It was lovely.
Speaker 3: And on Friday we went to check into a hotel
Speaker 3: Wednesday night and Culjie and Sydney, and obviously all the
Speaker 3: systems were down so they couldn't check us in and
Speaker 3: they're just like, at first they had no idea, so
Speaker 3: they're like, do you want to just sit in the
Speaker 3: lobby and wait a few minutes. I'm sure it's all
Speaker 3: going to come back.
Speaker 1: Well, I call the manager of the internet exactly, and
Speaker 1: then you know, it became apparent ten minutes, twenty minutes,
Speaker 1: half or whatever, and so they worked around it.
Speaker 3: But the thing is watching the staff, you know, who
Speaker 3: are all on this hotel desk in in Sydney, like
Speaker 3: managing everybody who was winging and trying to talk to
Speaker 3: each other about like as your back up, yet I'm.
Speaker 5: Still good because they don't know what the system is.
Speaker 2: They don't nobody does.
Speaker 3: And so to all the outlauders who were working and
Speaker 3: having to deal with the front facing consumers who are
Speaker 3: all going, I just want to blug it on my plane,
Speaker 3: do whatever.
Speaker 2: I mean, that was a lot.
Speaker 3: But on the other serious side of it, for tour
Speaker 3: you were just saying, Jesse, I've heard some commentary about
Speaker 3: how Because we then cover these outages in a lot
Speaker 3: of detail and the media amplifies it. Some people are like,
Speaker 3: shush a little bit, because you are making it really
Speaker 3: clear just how vulnerable we are and how copycat basically attack.
Speaker 3: It's a how to guy because it wasn't an attack,
Speaker 3: as we've said, so we don't all need to freak
Speaker 3: out about that. I mean, I would imagine that the
Speaker 3: kind of people who could bring it down are probably
Speaker 3: pretty much aware of this already. I think they're assuming
Speaker 3: that they are and they're not, and they're just scrolling
Speaker 3: through TikTok and then they're going, oh, glitch.
Speaker 1: I think they heard us talk about it on outline.
Speaker 1: What I never thought of doing it.
Speaker 5: They just learned what strike is. Oh, I'll get them that.
Speaker 3: The kind of security clearance you needed to get access
Speaker 3: to anything that could take down the world or whatever.
Speaker 3: Launch missiles used to be a very seriously guarded thing,
Speaker 3: and now we're just like, oh, set a virus loose
Speaker 3: on me, assault.
Speaker 2: And pulled the plug out. The world's on its feet.
Speaker 5: Pull the plug out, and I don't know where my
Speaker 5: money is.
Speaker 1: Well, the money thing's interesting because we experienced the optors
Speaker 1: shut down a little while ago. We got over that
Speaker 1: pretty quickly. But this idea of cash and how reliant
Speaker 1: we are the only reason I have cash and I
Speaker 1: happen to have cash on Friday is because my alterationist
Speaker 1: only takes cash. And that is literally the only time
Speaker 1: I ever have cash is when I have to go
Speaker 1: and pick up something from the alterations. And so I
Speaker 1: did have cash because we were going out to dinner
Speaker 1: on Friday night and I was like, I was like,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to pay for everyone.
Speaker 5: They won't even be able to transfer.
Speaker 1: They won't. Yeah, but I thought, maybe we won't even
Speaker 1: be able to go, maybe the restaurant will be closed.
Speaker 1: It wasn't, And everyone paid with card except for me.
Speaker 1: I paid with cash, and everyone's like, what, she's a prepper.
Speaker 1: It doesn't it make you think? It's making me a
Speaker 1: bit preppy. Where I'm going to be like, I think
Speaker 1: maybe a bit of cash under the mattress, nor anyone
Speaker 1: who's listening. I will not be having cash at home.
Speaker 1: I'll be keeping it somewhere secret that's not at home,
Speaker 1: you know at all, or on my person.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what you'll have on your front door. Cash
Speaker 4: is kept on promise, But I.
Speaker 1: Just think maybe in theory it would be good for
Speaker 1: some people to get some cash and have them in
Speaker 1: some places.
Speaker 5: It felt a bit why two K it did like
Speaker 5: I and that didn't happen.
Speaker 1: Because enough to remember why she came I do.
Speaker 4: I always terrified because I was ten and ten year
Speaker 4: olds were really across y two K. I had a
Speaker 4: lot of brain space to take up and go, oh
Speaker 4: my god, everything's going to fall from the sky when
Speaker 4: it turns into two thousand. But we had a hy
Speaker 4: two K moment, and I just think it's a reminder
Speaker 4: that we're all plugged into something none of us understand.
Speaker 5: We can't operate without it.
Speaker 1: Do you want daily outloud access? Why wouldn't you? We
Speaker 1: dropped episodes every day Tuesday and Thursday exclusively from me
Speaker 1: of subscribers, follow the link in the show notes to
Speaker 1: get us in your ears five days a week and
Speaker 1: a huge thank you if you're already a subscriber.
Speaker 4: A new documentary appears, Morgan Interview and How a Cancelation
Speaker 4: Saved a Life. Armie Hammer is back and is debating
Speaker 4: the semantics of the word cannibal. Before we get into it,
Speaker 4: if that word or anything in that domain might not
Speaker 4: be appropriate listening right now.
Speaker 1: What if you're triggered by the word cannibal?
Speaker 4: No, maybe you're just in the workplace, you're listening to
Speaker 4: it out loud, and you don't want to hear the
Speaker 4: graphic details of someone's text messages from Tipically.
Speaker 1: He didn't actually eat anyone.
Speaker 5: But the words are pretty confronting.
Speaker 1: Holly thinks maybe he did.
Speaker 4: Some of the words are pretty confronting. So I'm giving
Speaker 4: you a heads up.
Speaker 5: Are you a cannibal?
Speaker 6: No?
Speaker 7: You know what you have to do to be a cannibal.
Speaker 7: You have to have actually eaten someone.
Speaker 1: Have you ever eaten any human flesh? No? What do
Speaker 1: you feel that a large swathe of the public think
Speaker 1: Armie Hammer is accounibal?
Speaker 7: If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you.
Speaker 1: But the reason they would believe is because you said it.
Speaker 7: Sure, I'm one hundred percent of cannon and I think
Speaker 7: a lot of these things, these text messages. So it's this.
Speaker 7: This was a very intense affair, very sexually charged between
Speaker 7: two people with very similar proclivities and kinks, and any
Speaker 7: of those conversations that we had inside of that relationship.
Speaker 7: When you take them outside of that context and put
Speaker 7: them into broad daylight. Doesn't look so good.
Speaker 4: Today, we want to talk about the Piers Morgan interview
Speaker 4: that broadcast on YouTube on Friday, which is Hammer's first
Speaker 4: televised interview in three years. Armie Hammer is thirty seven
Speaker 4: years old, and in twenty twenty one, multiple women came
Speaker 4: forward claiming the actor, who you might know from the
Speaker 4: social network.
Speaker 1: He played the Winklevoss tweet as he did and he
Speaker 1: was the only thing I.
Speaker 4: Know him from Call Me by Your Name one of
Speaker 4: the best movies ever. These women claimed that he'd abuse them.
Speaker 4: It began when a woman started leaking Instagram direct messages
Speaker 4: sent from a man she said was Armie Hammer. Some
Speaker 4: of the messages read, I am one hundred percent a cannibal.
Speaker 4: I want to eat you, I need your blood, I
Speaker 4: crave it. He expressed rape fantasies. He said he wanted
Speaker 4: women to be his slaves. He told another woman he
Speaker 4: had a desire to cook and eat one of her ribs.
Speaker 4: The text messages are extensive and confronting. One woman claimed
Speaker 4: she had been in a relationship with Hammer and he
Speaker 4: subjected her to emotional abuse. Another said he had branded
Speaker 4: her she had a photo of it, left her covered
Speaker 4: in bruises, and talked about consuming her. There was also
Speaker 4: an allegation of rape by a woman named Effie. This
Speaker 4: became the basis for the LAPD sexual assault investigation into Hammer,
Speaker 4: which was ultimately dropped due to insufficient evidence. So on Friday,
Speaker 4: Hammer sits down with Morgan. Here are the headlines. Obviously,
Speaker 4: what you heard was significant about whether or not he
Speaker 4: thinks he's a cannibal. That is a no from him.
Speaker 4: He spent the five days.
Speaker 1: I do think he has a point. If you don't
Speaker 1: actually aid a person, are you accountable?
Speaker 4: And I suppose that was at the time when a
Speaker 4: celebrity says that that's the headline, but it was the
Speaker 4: way in from a much larger story.
Speaker 1: True.
Speaker 4: He spent the first ten minutes or so of the
Speaker 4: interview talking about his mental health, the impact of fame
Speaker 4: and success on his life, and how addiction made him
Speaker 4: behave in ways he's not proud of. He acknowledges that
Speaker 4: Robert Downey Jr. Helped him but didn't pay for his
Speaker 4: rehab as was reported. And there was also this which
Speaker 4: he said about his friendships.
Speaker 7: People are sending me private emails saying, I know this
Speaker 7: isn't you, Like this is crazy who this guy? Like
Speaker 7: I've known you for years? This guy who they're talking about,
Speaker 7: Like it's just not you. And I was like, why
Speaker 7: are you sending me emails say something about this? Like
Speaker 7: why is everyone saying to me directly like we know
Speaker 7: this isn't real, say it publicly, like help me? And
Speaker 7: Clark looked at me and he said, you know, what
Speaker 7: kind of friend are you? You set your house on
Speaker 7: fire and your house is burning to the ground, and
Speaker 7: now what you want your friends to run into a
Speaker 7: burning house with you? What happens to your friends when
Speaker 7: they run into a burning house? And I said they
Speaker 7: would get burned. He said, do you want your friends
Speaker 7: to get burned? I said no. He said, if you
Speaker 7: were a good friend, what would you want for your friends?
Speaker 7: And I said I would want my friends to stay
Speaker 7: as far away from the fire as possible.
Speaker 4: It's also worth noting that this appearance follows two other
Speaker 4: appearances on podcasts, one where he said there were things
Speaker 4: that people were saying about me that just felt so
Speaker 4: outlandish that I was a cannibal. He said during a
Speaker 4: podcast appearance, Now I'm able to sort of look at
Speaker 4: it with a sense of distance and perspective and be like,
Speaker 4: that's hilarious. People called me a cannibal and everyone believed them.
Speaker 5: Is this? It is this?
Speaker 3: I have issues with this way he's presenting this, This
Speaker 3: whole thing.
Speaker 5: Is the moment that Armie hammer comes back.
Speaker 1: Well, I think he's going to be on celebrity ESAs
Speaker 1: without a shadow of a doubt and possibly dancing with
Speaker 1: the stars.
Speaker 2: I really doubt it.
Speaker 3: I want to know me as our ex but strategist.
Speaker 3: Why Piers Morgan not exactly the most credible, like it's
Speaker 3: one of the biggest it's definitely one of the biggest places.
Speaker 3: But Piers Morgan will give a mic to anyone. Famously, recently,
Speaker 3: the woman who was alleged to have been the Baby
Speaker 3: Reindeer stalker.
Speaker 5: He'll last month he did Kevin Spacey.
Speaker 3: Yes, it's like a lot of possibly more mainstream media outlets,
Speaker 3: Mike go Maybe we don't want to give that person
Speaker 3: any amplification. So why Piers Morgan.
Speaker 1: I actually don't think anyone would have said no to
Speaker 1: an interview with Armie Hammy really no, absolutely not, or
Speaker 1: the woman from Baby Reindeer or Kevin Spacey. I think that.
Speaker 1: I think that just because you interview someone doesn't mean
Speaker 1: you're endorsing them or doesn't mean that you don't get
Speaker 1: to ask them really hard questions. I think all of
Speaker 1: those three interviews are massive, scoots and exclusive. So why
Speaker 1: did they choose Piers Morgan Because, first of all, Piers
Speaker 1: Morgan now has become the sort of go to place
Speaker 1: for pariahs where it sort of runs in full there's
Speaker 1: not a lot of editorializing, Like Piers Morgan doesn't give
Speaker 1: them a free he challenges them, but it's an interview
Speaker 1: that runs really long, so they get a lot of
Speaker 1: opportunity to talk and things aren't just like chopped up
Speaker 1: into grabs like they would be in a sixty minute
Speaker 1: So you're on a sixty minutes you might give two
Speaker 1: two hour interviews, but then they only use like thirty
Speaker 1: seconds of you saying the most explosive thing.
Speaker 2: So there's that.
Speaker 1: Then there's the fact that it is on the internet.
Speaker 1: It's on YouTube. He's Morgan's shows, so it means that
Speaker 1: everybody all over the world can watch it for free
Speaker 1: straight away. So it's almost the interview equivalent of posting
Speaker 1: on social media. It's completely globally accessible, so it's the
Speaker 1: way to reach the most amount of people in the
Speaker 1: most effective short amount of time. And what's interesting about
Speaker 1: it is that it's also a conversational style. So the
Speaker 1: way the sets lit, the format of the interview, which
Speaker 1: is just chatting, there's no like overlay footage in the
Speaker 1: way that say sixty minutes would do. It feels very unthreatening.
Speaker 1: You look at it and straight away you know your
Speaker 1: shorthand your thin slice is Oh, he seems like a
Speaker 1: nice enough guy.
Speaker 3: And then he remember then you remember some of the
Speaker 3: things that he is alleged to have done. Does Piers
Speaker 3: Morgan also have the home for pariahs? Perhaps because here's
Speaker 3: a pariah himself, just a little bit from the mainstream
Speaker 3: media world, so he has a bit of a sympathy
Speaker 3: for that.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And he's definitely made a name for himself as
Speaker 1: being the anti cancelation person and has resisted being canceled himself.
Speaker 1: So this idea of what do you do if you're
Speaker 1: canceled to that extent, well, the only thing that you
Speaker 1: can do, we're starting to see now is stare down
Speaker 1: the barrel of it and confront it. And robs are
Speaker 1: a period of time after a period.
Speaker 3: But here's the thing. I want to push back on
Speaker 3: the idea that anyone would be happy to have Armi
Speaker 3: Hammer on their show. That's like would anybody be happy
Speaker 3: to have p Diddy on their show?
Speaker 2: Right now?
Speaker 3: Like, I think that giving a platform and I, you know,
Speaker 3: to somebody who has these serious charges, I don't know
Speaker 3: they're not legal charges, although they could have turned out
Speaker 3: to be legal charges. Again them Armie Hammer giving them
Speaker 3: the platform and the mic to state their case.
Speaker 1: But is that been hang on a second hole, What
Speaker 1: do you think journalism is? Is that what journalism is
Speaker 1: is interviewing someone giving them a platform or is it
Speaker 1: holding them to account?
Speaker 3: But I don't think in this case it is because
Speaker 3: it is very much part of his comeback strategy, right like,
Speaker 3: let's do some softball, let's do Piers Morgan. You're right,
Speaker 3: he does ask the hard questions, but it's not a
Speaker 3: woman because the thing that you forget about listening to
Speaker 3: him and listen to him. Then he talks about how
Speaker 3: a lot of this was consensual. He talks about cheating
Speaker 3: on his wife, but that he was in a very
Speaker 3: bad place with his mental health and his addiction, which
Speaker 3: is all I'm sure is true. But then you pop
Speaker 3: over to X and you see the woman who accused
Speaker 3: him of rape reposting the details of the text messages
Speaker 3: and restating her claims that he raped her, and talking
Speaker 3: about the trauma that she has, and talking about the
Speaker 3: really much too disturbing and disgusting tweets to be either
Speaker 3: read out here or talked about by Piers Morgan on there,
Speaker 3: And you're remind did that this isn't a victimless situation,
Speaker 3: right if we believe it to be true, and he
Speaker 3: has never denied it. He denies eating people, but to
Speaker 3: be fair, that's always been the media's beat up and
Speaker 3: fun thing to say that he's a cannibal. The much
Speaker 3: bigger piece here is that he's been accused of sexual
Speaker 3: assault and abusing numerous young women.
Speaker 2: I can't see.
Speaker 3: It as just a oh cute Hollywood comeback story. I
Speaker 3: don't because the reason people get so upset and defensive about.
Speaker 2: It is for a very very very.
Speaker 3: Long time men like Armie Hammer, who, let's be clear,
Speaker 3: the reason his book there's a documentary about his family
Speaker 3: at the moment on streaming is because he comes from
Speaker 3: a long line of very wealthy very powerful people, and
Speaker 3: a lot of people in Hollywood had issues with him
Speaker 3: for a long time. They were saying, they're trying to
Speaker 3: make him a star. They're trying to make us make
Speaker 3: him a star because he has all this serious backing.
Speaker 2: But he there's something about him, right, Jesse.
Speaker 1: I didn't watch the whole interview. What was his defense
Speaker 1: or his explanation or his interview about all these things
Speaker 1: he's been accused of. Did he admit them, did he
Speaker 1: deny them?
Speaker 4: There were particular points where it just got very much
Speaker 4: into semantics. So there's one allegation, and it's interesting what
Speaker 4: Piers Morgan doubles down on and what he doesn't, I suppose,
Speaker 4: But one was the branding question. Peers Morgan was like,
Speaker 4: I was quite surprised by that that you would brand someone,
Speaker 4: and he said, oh, it's like, you know, lovers getting
Speaker 4: a tattoo. And the way that he tried to describe
Speaker 4: it was, I just used the tip of a knife
Speaker 4: and wrote a on her and there wasn't even any
Speaker 4: blood and blah blah blah, and it was between two
Speaker 4: consensual adults and we decided on it.
Speaker 1: So did he say that the whole thing was in
Speaker 1: the context of BDSM relationships.
Speaker 5: Yes, and consent essentially.
Speaker 3: And he has prud used some alcoholism, yes, as he
Speaker 3: was in the throes of addiction.
Speaker 4: And that some of those messages were sent when he
Speaker 4: was high. He has also told the story, and he
Speaker 4: has told this story before about considering ending at all,
Speaker 4: and he got very emotional. He spoke about his children
Speaker 4: and the experience of and you can't watch this and
Speaker 4: not feel something. When he's talking about visitation with his daughter.
Speaker 4: He wasn't allowed to be alone with her because of
Speaker 4: a sexual assault allegation, and she needed to go to
Speaker 4: the bathroom and he wasn't allowed to take his own
Speaker 4: daughter to the bathroom.
Speaker 5: So he's positioned and this is what's.
Speaker 2: Really know if that's the worst thing in the world.
Speaker 4: But yeah, but you see a man crying because he
Speaker 4: knows he's let down his children, right, And that's what.
Speaker 5: An interview with crime because he got caught.
Speaker 4: But I think, and this is the thing, is that
Speaker 4: whatever Army Hammad did, that doesn't take away the fact
Speaker 4: that he's a human being who's probably had a shitty
Speaker 4: few years, right, And he's not been convicted of a crime,
Speaker 4: and he's not being convicted of a crime. So this
Speaker 4: is where I get really stuck. I get stuck on
Speaker 4: this ethically and morally, and I can't quite resolve it is.
Speaker 4: I have started watching House of Hammer, and those allegations
Speaker 4: are horrifying, and they fit the profile, and it's it's
Speaker 4: important to note as well, this isn't one woman. This
Speaker 4: is multiple women echoing each other's stories, saying he uses
Speaker 4: the same language.
Speaker 2: A few years.
Speaker 4: They've had years telling these stories that are really horrifying
Speaker 4: about some of the stuff he did to them. Obviously
Speaker 4: they say that there wasn't enough evidence to prosecute him.
Speaker 4: But what do we want Armie Hammer to do when
Speaker 4: we hear the story about him considering ending his life?
Speaker 4: I mean, that's the cancel culture, which is imperfect, and
Speaker 4: you know, I'm not sure that's exactly what it is.
Speaker 4: But do we want people to die? No, we don't
Speaker 4: want people to die. Do we think that they have
Speaker 4: a ride of reply? If these people can go on
Speaker 4: the record and talk about their messages? And I'm asking that,
Speaker 4: I genuinely don't know what the answer is. I don't
Speaker 4: know what the culture should do with Armie Hammer.
Speaker 3: He's trying to come back, right, So what he's doing
Speaker 3: is he's testing the waters. And I read some analysis
Speaker 3: of this from the Hollywood prs who said exactly this.
Speaker 3: They're saying, he's trying to stage a soft comeback. So
Speaker 3: let's just test. Let's just see, you know, I'll do
Speaker 3: a couple of podcasts. I'll do Peers Morgan, We'll see
Speaker 3: if there's a way back. Now. I agree with you
Speaker 3: Jesse that it's not that you want people who have
Speaker 3: sort of fallen from grace in this way or whatever
Speaker 3: we want to call it, to disappear off the planet entirely.
Speaker 3: But they're also not owed our money to support their
Speaker 3: careers if they want to go back to being a
Speaker 3: movie star. You know, I owe Armi Hammer nothing and not.
Speaker 2: Does anyone else.
Speaker 3: So well, remember a while ago when it was rumored
Speaker 3: or clearly stated that he was working at a resort
Speaker 3: in the Bahamas, and everybody got a lot of laughs
Speaker 3: out of that, and they.
Speaker 2: Were all like, ha ha ha.
Speaker 3: Look at him now organizing golf days, and we were
Speaker 3: all saying, well, you know, the man's got to work.
Speaker 3: There are many other paths to redemption that do not
Speaker 3: involve Peers Morgan high profile interviews him getting back into
Speaker 3: Hollywood him getting jobs, because the thing is the issue
Speaker 3: for people like Armie Hammer, whether we call this a
Speaker 3: sexual assault charge when there aren't actually legal charges on
Speaker 3: but so a very generous terms would be a sex scandal. Yeah, right,
Speaker 3: For high profile people who are part of a sex scandal,
Speaker 3: very distasteful, very violent seeming adultery addiction, whether or not
Speaker 3: that's going to ruin their career or not kind of
Speaker 3: depends who they were pretending to be in the first place.
Speaker 3: What's the gap between who they've been exposed to be
Speaker 3: and who we were supposed to believe they were. And
Speaker 3: it's interesting in Armie Hammer's case because although a lot
Speaker 3: of people in the industry say that they were trying
Speaker 3: to make him happen as a romantic leading man for
Speaker 3: a really long time, his big roles were never actually
Speaker 3: really that, even in Death on the Nile, which he
Speaker 3: had a massive starring role in but came out after this,
Speaker 3: so they raised him from the trailer and the promo.
Speaker 2: But I've seen that movie and he's all the way
Speaker 2: through is good.
Speaker 3: He's great, but also in that he also plays a
Speaker 3: sort of romantic hero but with a dark edge. He's
Speaker 3: always got those guys, because clearly that's sort of what
Speaker 3: people have always sensed about him, but him being so
Speaker 3: indignant about you don't understand that I'm just a nice
Speaker 3: family man who off the wagon for a little bit.
Speaker 3: And then you've got this cohort of young women who
Speaker 3: have no power at all saying, actually, this ruined my life.
Speaker 3: I'm still dealing with the trauma from it. They don't
Speaker 3: need to see him back on movie posters, and if
Speaker 3: I'm forced to choose a side there, I don't have
Speaker 3: any ambiguity about where my side is. My side is
Speaker 3: with those women rather than with him.
Speaker 2: I don't wish him ill.
Speaker 3: I don't wish him to go away, but just come
Speaker 3: and get a real job and stop popping up on
Speaker 3: every screen. I look at planning your comeback.
Speaker 1: I think the market will decide, and you're right, he's
Speaker 1: not owed anything by anyone. And if this is dipping
Speaker 1: his toe in the water, I mean Hollywood is mercenary
Speaker 1: in that no one wants to take a risk if
Speaker 1: they think there will be a backlash at the box
Speaker 1: office or streaming or wherever it is. So if people
Speaker 1: don't believe that he can come back in a way,
Speaker 1: that's commercially viable and that an audience will forgive or
Speaker 1: be able to overlook. Then it won't work like no
Speaker 1: matter how much he wants to come back, just because
Speaker 1: you want to come back doesn't mean you're allowed back.
Speaker 4: Hammer said, you could get the likes of me and
Speaker 4: Kevin Spacey very cheap right now because we can't get
Speaker 4: a job. And I was like, yeah, that's a worry.
Speaker 4: But you're going to have this tier of canceled men
Speaker 4: that are, regardless of what you think of what they did.
Speaker 5: Really good actor, really good actors that you could get
Speaker 5: really good discount.
Speaker 2: Pass are you going to get your money back?
Speaker 3: And that's the interesting thing we've talked before on here
Speaker 3: about Luis c k for example, the comedian who you know,
Speaker 3: sex scandal again using that very generous term, sort of
Speaker 3: ended his mainstream career, but he makes a very good
Speaker 3: living as a sort of professional canceled comedian who he
Speaker 3: sells his own tickets through his own channels, He does
Speaker 3: all his own marketing, and that's working out really.
Speaker 2: Well for him.
Speaker 3: A bit harder for the movie stars because they need
Speaker 3: to be employed by somebody, and as Mia says, by radio.
Speaker 3: And the thing is it didn't used to be like that.
Speaker 3: Powerful men have been getting away with shit like this
Speaker 3: for generations and usually paid off.
Speaker 2: Go away.
Speaker 3: We don't believe that anyway, and they'll get the backing.
Speaker 3: But the tables have turned. Don't have that many tears.
Speaker 5: To shed from me before we go.
Speaker 4: So many out louders have a lot to say about
Speaker 4: last week's group therapy episode.
Speaker 5: It was one of the juiciest ones we've had.
Speaker 4: It was we had a very big argument about it,
Speaker 4: and I was a little bit I'll give you a vibe.
Speaker 5: It was about a.
Speaker 4: Woman who is being woken up by her husband pleasuring
Speaker 4: himself beside her in the middle of the night, and
Speaker 4: we discuss whether or not frozen, the pros and cons,
Speaker 4: whether that's fair, and whose.
Speaker 2: Team are we on.
Speaker 3: Sort of sparked a lot of a device for me,
Speaker 3: or about how she can look at her phone in
Speaker 3: the night without her husband, And to be clear, that
Speaker 3: wasn't nothing like sexual or sorted about that, But me,
Speaker 3: I was like, I sympathize.
Speaker 2: Because I want to look at my phone and I can't,
Speaker 2: and lots of so hard I do this do that?
Speaker 1: You got to be considerate when you're sharing a bed.
Speaker 5: Here is a sneak peek of the episode.
Speaker 1: What if she just went and sorted herself out in
Speaker 1: the middle of the night and he knocked on the
Speaker 1: door and went, hey, what are you doing? What? You've
Speaker 1: woken me up with the noise of that buzzing? What
Speaker 1: are you doing? I feel really offended.
Speaker 3: But that's not what's happening. She's being woken up in
Speaker 3: the night with her husband. I don't think it's thet
Speaker 3: abating in their bed. Next week is he laziest?
Speaker 1: It is lazy to do.
Speaker 3: It, laziest, most uncaring. Like she's asked him not to
Speaker 3: do it, he continues to do it.
Speaker 2: That is the issue.
Speaker 1: Did she ask him not to masturbate or did she
Speaker 1: ask him not to wake her up and do it
Speaker 1: next to her? Like if someone was doing it right
Speaker 1: next to you. I can see why that feels almost
Speaker 1: a bit intimate.
Speaker 5: A link to that will be in the show notes
Speaker 5: and out loud as.
Speaker 4: We always want your dilemmas, so if you've got a
Speaker 4: spicy one, please email us at out loud at mommeya
Speaker 4: dot com dot au.
Speaker 5: We will have a link to that email in the
Speaker 5: show notes.
Speaker 3: A very massive thank you to all of you out
Speaker 3: louders for coming and listening to our show today. Gosh,
Speaker 3: the news cycle has been a lot. And to our
Speaker 3: fabulous team for putting this show together. We'll be back
Speaker 3: in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 2: Bye.
Speaker 5: Shout out to any Muma mia subscribers listening.
Speaker 4: If you love the show and you want to support us,
Speaker 4: subscribing to MoMA Mia is the very best way to
Speaker 4: do so.
Speaker 5: A link in the episode description
Speaker 1: MHM