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Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to

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Speaker 2: Momma Mia Out Loud and what women are actually talking

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Speaker 2: about on Monday, the twenty fifth of August. My name

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Speaker 2: is Holly Wayne Wright.

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Speaker 3: I'm Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 1: I'm Amelia Lester.

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Speaker 3: Before we begin, we wanted to wish Braun a happy birthday.

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Speaker 3: Out louder bron Out louder Braun. If you want to

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Speaker 3: know why that is significant, keep listening. That's a little

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Speaker 3: bit of a clickbait for your Monday.

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Speaker 2: But other things that have made our agenda today include.

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Speaker 3: Weight loss drugs have their first global ambassador, Serena Williams,

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Speaker 3: and unsurprisingly the move has spawned thousands of takes.

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Speaker 1: Plus why there is nothing more perilous than trying to

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Speaker 1: be friends with your friend's friend, and.

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Speaker 2: Why posting a picture of your very ordinary shoes has

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Speaker 2: become an act of protest against a pair of high

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Speaker 2: profile female bosses.

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Speaker 3: But for Serena Williams, widely considered the best female tennis

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Speaker 3: player of all time, is the new ambassador of a

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Speaker 3: telehealth company which as part of its services, prescribes weight

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Speaker 3: loss medication otherwise known as GLP ones. The forty three

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Speaker 3: year old, who retired about three years ago, was a

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Speaker 3: subject of a feature in People magazine at the end

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Speaker 3: of last week which was all about her weight loss.

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Speaker 3: Then came an interview on The Today Show, then an

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Speaker 3: interview in Vogue magazine and in l This was all

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Speaker 3: ultimately part of a commercial. Her partnership will span multiple

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Speaker 3: years across billboards, TV spots and digital platforms.

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Speaker 2: The thing about these ads that I've seen Jesse is

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Speaker 2: shocking is the wrong word, because it's not shocking, but

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Speaker 2: it's just their very intentional and lots of very clear

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Speaker 2: product placement, which is kind of different to some advertising

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Speaker 2: we've seen.

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Speaker 3: Before, which is also very confronting, i think to Australian audiences,

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Speaker 3: given that this would never fly in Australia. It is

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Speaker 3: not allowed. There are strict rules around medica advertising. It's unlawful.

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Speaker 3: It's banned by the Therapeutic Goods Administration in the US.

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Speaker 3: Of course, you spend five minutes there, you turn on

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Speaker 3: the TV and you're being sold sleeping pills, weight loss everything.

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Speaker 1: And they always have this thing at the end where

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Speaker 1: they say side effects and risks may include death. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that's always very stressful. I looks this up and

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Speaker 1: it turns out that there are two countries in the

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Speaker 1: world that allow pretty much unrestricted pharmaceutical drug advertising. We

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Speaker 1: all know about the US, as you just mentioned, but

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Speaker 1: also in New Zealand. It turns out really it's a

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Speaker 1: real standalone when it comes to advertising these things. But

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Speaker 1: I just wanted to mention a fact that I think

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Speaker 1: we need to include in this discussion, which is that

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Speaker 1: Serena's husband Alexis o'hanyan, who was a co founder of Reddit,

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Speaker 1: Certified wife Guy, who talks a lot about his marriage

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Speaker 1: and has a podcast about being a dad. He is

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Speaker 1: a board member of the Telehealth company, which, as you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: as part of its services, prescribes his weight loss drugs.

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Speaker 1: And what's interesting is that Serena Williams is not advertising

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Speaker 1: a particular brand of weight lots drug here, and so

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Speaker 1: it's more of a business model shift.

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Speaker 3: And so many tech bros for lack of a better term,

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Speaker 3: are going into this kind of thing, which is a

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Speaker 3: specially built facility where you go and everything from fitness

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Speaker 3: to diet to prescribing these things I think this is

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Speaker 3: where the future is going, right, rather than being managed

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Speaker 3: just by you GP.

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Speaker 2: But presumably this all happens online, right that this.

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Speaker 3: I believe it's a telehelp Ye.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Serena Williams is such an interesting choice and I think

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Speaker 3: this is why it has spawned a thousand opinions, because

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Speaker 3: some are saying that this undermines her athletic legacy, which

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Speaker 3: was all about defiance and being the ultimate outsider.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't. It does so many Grand Slam titles exactly.

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Speaker 3: I think something so patronizing and sexist about that. But

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Speaker 3: they're saying that she's sort of bowing to Thinness culture.

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Speaker 3: And also, if a literal athlete needs help with her health,

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Speaker 3: then what hope do any of us have? But maybe

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Speaker 3: that's also the point, right well.

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Speaker 1: I think rather than undermining her athletic legacy, what these

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Speaker 1: kinds of ads are doing is undermining a relationship that

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Speaker 1: Australians have decided is sacrisanct, which is the relationship between

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Speaker 1: your GP and the patient, which is why, incidentally Australia,

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Speaker 1: along with most other countries in the world, does not

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Speaker 1: allow these ads.

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Speaker 2: The thing that's interesting about this is that so as

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Speaker 2: we've said, Australia has these very strict rules. This would

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Speaker 2: not be allowed here at the moment, but because of

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Speaker 2: the global nature of the Internet, this is everywhere, so

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Speaker 2: it's on Instagram. A mockery of any country's regulations. Really,

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Speaker 2: when the fact that Serena Williams is advertising GLP ones

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Speaker 2: is within five minutes everywhere all over the world and

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Speaker 2: it isn't specific, but it's broad and we've all got

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Speaker 2: that messaging immediately.

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Speaker 1: Remember a lost in translation. That movie was all about

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Speaker 1: the fact that Hollywood celebrities used to go to Japan

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Speaker 1: and other countries in East Asia make advertisements there that

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Speaker 1: wouldn't be seen in the West, and now, of course

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Speaker 1: that's not happening anymore, or because we can see them all.

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Speaker 2: Tiny violin for them. I want to talk about celebrities

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Speaker 2: and weight loss endorsement because I don't want to talk

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Speaker 2: about Serena Williams's body. It's her business. She's been very

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Speaker 2: explicit in what she thinks about this and why she's

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Speaker 2: chosen to do it, etcetera, etcetera. I did think, God,

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Speaker 2: they must be paying her a lot of money, so

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Speaker 2: finding out that her husband's on the board makes a

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Speaker 2: lot of sense.

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Speaker 3: And it's multiple years and all of the public like

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Speaker 3: sitting on the Today Show. It's not just that she's

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Speaker 3: the face of an ad. It is multi prott.

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Speaker 2: But there's nothing new about celebrities taking weight loss endorsements right.

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Speaker 2: That has happened for a long time. But one of

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Speaker 2: the things that's interesting about this is the sort of

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Speaker 2: shift that we're seeing because any celebrity who does not

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Speaker 2: fit into a very specific conventional size, which for television

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Speaker 2: is tiny, tiny, tiny, has always been offered weight loss endorsements,

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Speaker 2: you know, and we've seen here in Australia people who

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Speaker 2: for example, did endorsements is Jenny Craig, Magda Zubanski, Rebel Wilson, Melby,

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Speaker 2: Samantha Armitage, Casey Donovan, like lots and lots and lots

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Speaker 2: of very well known people have done it and for

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Speaker 2: a while there, although the establishment used to be a

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Speaker 2: bit sniffy about it, like, oh, it's a bit cheesy,

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Speaker 2: isn't it, people generally speaking have always felt really fondly

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Speaker 2: towards the celebrities who do that, because it's like they

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Speaker 2: are admitting I'm struggling with exactly the same things you are.

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Speaker 2: We talked last week when we're talking about the biggest loser,

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Speaker 2: that sixty five percent of ossis is trying to lose

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Speaker 2: weight at any one time. So it's incredibly democratizing to

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Speaker 2: have nab Ye who's very high status, say I'm just

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Speaker 2: like you. I struggle too. And that was an accepted

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Speaker 2: sort of contract for a long time. But then in

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Speaker 2: the past few years, when we've seen a much more

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Speaker 2: broad backlash against diet culture and diet companies, it seemed

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Speaker 2: to be on the nose. If you think about celebrities

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Speaker 2: who've talked about doing that, Magda Zubanski is an example

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Speaker 2: who will say, I kind of regret doing that now

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Speaker 2: and think about all the shit that Oprah got over

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Speaker 2: the years for the way that she talked about weight

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Speaker 2: loss in the eighties and nineties compared to now, and

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Speaker 2: this new frontier feels like a bit the shift. It

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Speaker 2: feels like it's back to be able to talk about

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Speaker 2: that in a broad way.

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Speaker 3: Because what was really difficult with the weight watchers of

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Speaker 3: the Jenny Craig moment was how difficult it was to

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Speaker 3: then keep the weight off. The success of a diet

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Speaker 3: every research study shows is very very limited.

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Speaker 2: Well, Magda back to her as an example, for a

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Speaker 2: while there, she famously was a Jenny Craig ambassador, and

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Speaker 2: then she said she was fired because she didn't live

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Speaker 2: up to the contract, and then she re signed to

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Speaker 2: help her lose the weight that she gained after she

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Speaker 2: did Jenny Craig. So that's how complicated that all of that.

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Speaker 3: Is right, And of course Oprah's history with this, and

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Speaker 3: I think that it's also worth tabling that for black women,

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Speaker 3: this is a very particular conversation because Oprah's body, or

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Speaker 3: Serena Williams's body, is also subject to something that they

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Speaker 3: call like missognoir, which is sexism, but also sexism that's

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Speaker 3: thrown at black bodies. Serena Williams didn't look like other

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Speaker 3: tennis players. She never did. She was curvier, she was stronger,

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Speaker 3: all of those things which made her the most brilliant

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Speaker 3: tennis player ever. But I suppose that's why people feel

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Speaker 3: betrayed too. But I'm feeling particularly and maybe surprisingly defensive

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Speaker 3: of Serena Williams in all of this, because she's come

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Speaker 3: out and said that transparency has always mattered to her.

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Speaker 3: She's almost come out and said another quiet part out loud,

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Speaker 3: which is these drugs are not for lazy people, and

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Speaker 3: there is an enormous stigma all over the world, especially

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Speaker 3: among people who have never had issues with weight, that

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Speaker 3: a sort of lack. We're talking about with the Biggest

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Speaker 3: Loser conversation. You know, it should be tough, and if

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Speaker 3: you just had enough willpower and discipline, then you too

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Speaker 3: could lose weight. And to have someone with the most

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Speaker 3: willpower and the most discipline, who is so healthy and

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Speaker 3: so fit say I couldn't do it, I think gives

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Speaker 3: other people permission.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that's a great point. That she is

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Speaker 1: a kind of the embodiment of discipline and of working

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Speaker 1: hard to achieve goals physical and otherwise. And there is

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Speaker 1: something interesting about her selling a service that prescribes weight

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Speaker 1: loss drugs. On that point, we should mention, of course,

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Speaker 1: that these drugs do have many side effects as well.

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Speaker 1: They're not by any means of magic bullet.

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Speaker 3: And that's the thing, right, is that with you, Jenny

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Speaker 3: Craig or your weight watchers. Of course, a diet has

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Speaker 3: side effects, but generally speaking, it's relatively straightforward. This I

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Speaker 3: think the other maybe sources of discomfort that you're seeing

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Speaker 3: comments and that you're seeing commentary is we don't know

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Speaker 3: enough about these drugs. What are we going to find

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Speaker 3: out in five or ten years and what responsibility does

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Speaker 3: Serena Williams have to talk about side effects?

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Speaker 2: Well, Jamila Jamil has said, of course she often comments

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Speaker 2: on this space, so she was always going to be

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Speaker 2: asked what she thought about this, and she's posted about it,

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Speaker 2: and her point is, broadly, the problem with celebrity endorsement

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Speaker 2: of pharmaceutical products and other weight loss means is that

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Speaker 2: they have resources that other people don't have. So she

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Speaker 2: basically says, if everything goes pair shaped for Serena Williams

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Speaker 2: or for anyone else of significant means, they've got doctors

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Speaker 2: on Speeddale, They've got a whole lot of support that

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Speaker 2: your average person doesn't have.

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Speaker 3: Well, she can do her weight training every day, which

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Speaker 3: we know is really.

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Speaker 2: Important, but she also has access to health professionals. And

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Speaker 2: what these kind of companies are broadly encouraging for the

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Speaker 2: rest of us is get on the phone or get online.

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Speaker 2: That seems to be the messaging of a lot of

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Speaker 2: these companies. Whereas you know, the small print of any

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Speaker 2: of these products has always been always consult your GP

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Speaker 2: before use, it feels a little bit recklessly.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of treating it like a consumer gleat.

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Speaker 2: Which has nothing to do with Serena Williams. It just

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Speaker 2: has everything to do with the way that we are

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Speaker 2: marketing it. And I think it's a valid point that,

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Speaker 2: and this has always been a point of celebrity endorsement

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Speaker 2: of any kind, is that although we can buy in

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Speaker 2: quite happily to the oh they're just like me, you

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Speaker 2: know idea, they're not really yeah.

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Speaker 1: In a moment, are there some areas of life influencers

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Speaker 1: just shouldn't be influencing influencers tell us what moisturizer to use,

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Speaker 1: which leggings are best, how we should do our hair,

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Speaker 1: what we should.

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Speaker 2: Paint our nails.

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Speaker 1: With the question, now, should they also be conveying life

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Speaker 1: or death information about natural disaster? This is yes, this

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Speaker 1: is real. At least one expert says yes. In a

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Speaker 1: report which looked at how safety information was being communicated

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Speaker 1: during two recent tropical cyclones in Queensland. They were Jasper

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty three and Curely last year. A Griffith

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Speaker 1: University researcher, doctor Susan Grantham, has advocated for meeting young

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Speaker 1: people where they are in terms of telling them what's

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Speaker 1: going on, telling them what to do during tropical cyclones

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Speaker 1: and other natural disasters, and she says that we need

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Speaker 1: to get on TikTok for that information. She made a

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Speaker 1: really interesting point. She said that we typically rely on

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Speaker 1: politicians to tell us the information that we need to

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Speaker 1: know in natural disasters. But the problem is that politicians,

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Speaker 1: because they're in politics, we end up getting distracted by

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Speaker 1: lots of stuff that don't have to do with important

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Speaker 1: natural disaster evacuation plans. We end up thinking, has that

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Speaker 1: politician been visible enough? Where's that politician? How are they performing?

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Speaker 1: Are they doing a good job of being a politician

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Speaker 1: in this moment, Because.

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Speaker 2: In Australia, it's like get your hard hat on, get

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Speaker 2: your life jacket on, get yourself in front of a

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Speaker 2: TV camera. That seems to be a kind of standard

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Speaker 2: politician strategy. And it's like we're busy having the dialogue

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Speaker 2: of it is that helpful? Should they be doing that?

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Speaker 2: Rather than actually, should I evacuate right exactly exactly?

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Speaker 1: And then of course there's this other dynamic happening, which

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Speaker 1: is I think we all grew up understanding that when

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Speaker 1: something bad was happening, you needed to learn about it.

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Speaker 1: In the first instance, we probably turned on the radio

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Speaker 1: or TV. And then, at least for me, when I've

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Speaker 1: been involved in natural disasters, there was one natural disaster

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Speaker 1: that I had to deal with, I went to Twitter.

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Speaker 1: But the young people are not necessarily going to Twitter well,

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Speaker 1: or to X or to the radio. They are going

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Speaker 1: to TikTok. And if you don't have reliable, up to

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Speaker 1: date information on there, you're simply not going to get

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Speaker 1: that information. So I do see Grantham's point, but I

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Speaker 1: feel worried about it because she says that we need

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Speaker 1: to reach out to trusted influencers. Governments need to reach

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Speaker 1: out to trusted influencers, and in these times of natural disaster,

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Speaker 1: get the trusted influencers to convey information. But my question

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Speaker 1: is is there such a thing as a trusted influencer.

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Speaker 3: And trusted with what?

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Speaker 1: Like who I affiliates?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, I trust this person to give me a

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Speaker 3: really good house tour. But do I trust this person

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Speaker 3: to tell me how severe this cyclone is? No, it

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Speaker 3: feels like a cop out. I don't want to sound hyperbolic,

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Speaker 3: but this is apocalyptic. But like I was thinking. My

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Speaker 3: takeaway from reading this was politicians need to step up. Like,

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Speaker 3: if you're a politician who is using this moment to

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Speaker 3: get political, to blame, blah, to whatever, do better. And

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Speaker 3: I think that we saw politicians do better during COVID.

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Speaker 3: I think that they had to put politics aside because

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Speaker 3: it was a national urgency.

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Speaker 1: Sorry to talk over you, because I've been told that

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Speaker 1: I do that too much, but I have to talk

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Speaker 1: over you. Look at how Dan andrews press conferences became

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Speaker 1: the debate topic in themselves rather than COVID.

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Speaker 3: But they had facts I had. This is how many

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Speaker 3: people were diagnosed, this is how many people are in hospital.

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Speaker 2: This is like wasn't.

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Speaker 1: Heard the facts because they were too busy debating whether

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Speaker 1: Dan Andrews was a good politician. Holly, I know you

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Speaker 1: must agree.

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Speaker 2: With well, look, I see Jesse's point, but I think

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Speaker 2: that part of that I actually agree with the argument

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Speaker 2: that politicians aren't the best people to put these messages across.

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Speaker 2: The best people to put these messages across are the

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Speaker 2: people from the emergency services.

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Speaker 3: Shane Fitzsimmons remind me it was twenty nineteen, twenty twenty

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Speaker 3: bush Fire season. My mate Shane, who was the head

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Speaker 3: of the New South Wales Rural Fire Service. He would

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Speaker 3: stand up, he would give us no bullshit information. I

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Speaker 3: trusted that guy with my life.

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Speaker 1: Yep.

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Speaker 3: My family got trapped in bushfires and it was horrific

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Speaker 3: and scary. And that man was he given Australian a view.

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Speaker 3: He was given him some.

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Speaker 2: He got a lot of awards, and so he should have.

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Speaker 2: Because the thing about politicians, and this is increasingly so.

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Speaker 2: I think we're so busy looking at absolutely everything through

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Speaker 2: a political lens and thinking our own thoughts. So it's

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Speaker 2: like we might be thinking, well, if your government had

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Speaker 2: done more about climate change, maybe we wouldn't be in

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Speaker 2: this position in the first place, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: And if your government hadn't cut funds to such and

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Speaker 2: such and such and such, maybe we would have had

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Speaker 2: a better response. And all those things are valid, but

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Speaker 2: they're not helpful in the moment. I think it's really

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Speaker 2: interesting what we expect from leaders in moments of crisis.

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Speaker 2: Every Australian could absolutely repeat to you the fact that

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Speaker 2: Scott Morrison's response is to the terrible bushfires of that season,

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Speaker 2: of that black Summer of twenty nineteen into twenty twenty

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Speaker 2: was part of his undoing. It's just now part of

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Speaker 2: the law that that is exactly what happened. That he

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Speaker 2: wasn't around enough, and once he was, it seemed like

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Speaker 2: he was using it much more as a photo opportunity

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Speaker 2: than as any kind of meaningful help and assistance. That

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Speaker 2: there was so much critics of his response that it

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Speaker 2: was a large part of ruining his career. We want

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Speaker 2: our leaders to be visible and calm, and we want

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Speaker 2: them to express to us what we need to hear.

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Speaker 2: But are they the best people to do it in

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Speaker 2: this hyper politicized climate. I think possibly not.

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Speaker 3: I reckon that experts. On one hand, I think that

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Speaker 3: they are really important the idea that like Blue Eyed

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Speaker 3: Kayla Jade would be giving me any sort of information

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Speaker 3: on what I meant to do in a natural disaster.

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Speaker 3: And these conversations are more pressing because we know that

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Speaker 3: climate catastrophe and natural disasters are increasing, and especially in Queensland.

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Speaker 3: I mean every year there is just something horrific. I

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Speaker 3: went and looked at Cyclone Alfred, which was a few

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Speaker 3: months ago in Queensland, and looked at what the top

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Speaker 3: tiktoks were because I was really interested in how it

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Speaker 3: was sorted, and it was news clips, which are actually

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Speaker 3: that's what the news is for. For all the shit

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Speaker 3: that journalists and media companies get, it was local news

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Speaker 3: reporters who were standing there giving you the information that

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Speaker 3: was being shared, that was being engaged with the issue

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Speaker 3: was misinformation because the second there's a natural disaster, for

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Speaker 3: some reason, the Internet does this thing where they put

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Speaker 3: a shark, they photoshop a shark in a really weird place.

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Speaker 3: It's every natural disaster, there's like a flooded sharknado, sharknado.

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Speaker 3: They do like a It'll be like town Hall flooded

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Speaker 3: and there's just a shark, and it's just they do

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Speaker 3: the same thing every time. That stuff really unhelpful, really

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Speaker 3: really annoying. But mostly I think that if you can

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Speaker 3: surface more and more news clips, and what TikTok needs

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Speaker 3: to do is flag AI generated and flag misinformation like

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Speaker 3: that's your responsibility.

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Speaker 2: I'd like to believe that's true. But there is a trope,

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Speaker 2: and I don't know if it's only an Australian trope.

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Speaker 2: Maybe you can tell me in Amelia that anytime there's

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Speaker 2: a whiff that a cyclone or any kind of disaster

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Speaker 2: might be coming. All the journals from you know, Breakfast

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Speaker 2: TV and everywhere in the world get their high veers out,

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Speaker 2: they get their rank code of the rank, and they

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Speaker 2: are there and they are standing if they are finding

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Speaker 2: any rain they can find, and they're standing in front

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Speaker 2: of it and they've got a wind machine gun to

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Speaker 2: their hairs, all blown around like this, and they're like,

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Speaker 2: I'm here. And I always think, is the nation's commercial

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Speaker 2: media descending on this disastersode in this moment? Is this helpful?

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Speaker 3: Is this helpful to anybody?

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Speaker 2: I think we're getting more literate and understanding how to

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Speaker 2: go to the source on it. I know that we're

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Speaker 2: in the fires in that terrible fire season. I know

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Speaker 2: with the flooding, I have the Bureau of Meteorology app.

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Speaker 2: I had the fires near me. I know that in

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Speaker 2: America during the terrible recent fires in California, everybody had

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Speaker 2: you get directed. Yes, and it's not perfect, but it's

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Speaker 2: got to be better than Look, sometimes I'm an influencer

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Speaker 2: and you do not want to be counting on me

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Speaker 2: at a crisis.

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Speaker 3: Amelia, can I ask you, are there some things where

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Speaker 3: maybe TikTok isn't the place, like should we really be

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Speaker 3: encouraging young people. It's like, well, they're already on TikTok.

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Speaker 3: Maybe they get off TikTok during the cyclone. Yeah, is

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Speaker 3: that a fair enough thing to do?

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Speaker 1: I mean, speaking of someone who used to be a

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Speaker 1: diict to Twitter during natural disasters, I suppose I can't speak,

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Speaker 1: but I'm glad that you mentioned this, because I do

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Speaker 1: think this gets back to a conversation we've had on

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Speaker 1: the show before, which is about gatekeepers and about how

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Speaker 1: information is now free to circulate like a sharknado through

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Speaker 1: the roads and avenues of our great nation, whereas before

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Speaker 1: we used to have people like journalists say Okay, this

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Speaker 1: is correct, this is not correct. And what I worry

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Speaker 1: about is that yet you've both said how important it

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Speaker 1: is to go to the source and rely on local news,

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Speaker 1: but we don't really have any local news anymore. The

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Speaker 1: ABC has seen huge funding cuts. It's a little bit

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Speaker 1: chicken and egg. So it's all very well to say,

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Speaker 1: let's go in the time of crisis, go to the

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Speaker 1: local news, but the local news needs to survive year round,

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Speaker 1: not just during the natural disaster.

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Speaker 2: After the break, look down, what message are your shoes sending?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: Now that choice if you're a female boss apparently matters

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00:20:02,542 --> 00:20:06,821
Speaker 2: a lot. One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes

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00:20:06,821 --> 00:20:11,381
Speaker 2: every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for MoMA MEA subscribers. Follow

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Speaker 2: the link at the show notes to get us in

407
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Speaker 2: your ears five days a week. And a huge thank

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00:20:16,141 --> 00:20:18,262
Speaker 2: you to all our current subscribers.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about something that's very fraught and

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Speaker 1: a little bit raw for me. So the topic is

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Speaker 1: friends of friends. Yep. This came up for me recently

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Speaker 1: because I met a friend's friend and we did not

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Speaker 1: like each other.

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Speaker 3: Oh we your friend's friend, I thinks, occurred to me.

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Speaker 3: I think I'm actually a friend's friend.

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Speaker 1: Let's call each other colleagues from now. But fine, I

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Speaker 1: want to call each other colleagues for the purposes of

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Speaker 1: this conversation because I want to be able to discuss

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Speaker 1: in a no holds barred way the concept of a

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Speaker 1: friend's friend, and it's going to get uncomfortable. Friends friends

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Speaker 1: is really complicated. And a few years ago, my best

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Speaker 1: friend at the time met my other best friend and

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Speaker 1: at the time, and they were over at my flat

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Speaker 1: and one of them was taking her daily multi vitamin

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Speaker 1: and she's a very generous, effusive person. And she turns

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Speaker 1: to my other friend and says, oh, would you like

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Speaker 1: a multi vitamin? It's nice and very nice. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: mean it's a little odd, just like she is, but

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Speaker 1: that's okay. And then the other friends said, no, I

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Speaker 1: choose to get my vitamins and minerals from my daily

431
00:21:30,141 --> 00:21:31,381
Speaker 1: diet than appeal.

432
00:21:32,982 --> 00:21:39,141
Speaker 2: Oh dear, no, no, no too honest and just say

433
00:21:39,302 --> 00:21:40,581
Speaker 2: no thanks. Shut up.

434
00:21:41,341 --> 00:21:43,542
Speaker 1: So back to what happened to me. So, when I

435
00:21:43,621 --> 00:21:46,742
Speaker 1: met my friend's friend recently, we were chalk and cheese,

436
00:21:46,821 --> 00:21:48,821
Speaker 1: as they say. I think I was the cheese and

437
00:21:48,821 --> 00:21:51,061
Speaker 1: she was the chalk. But that's my own view. And

438
00:21:51,182 --> 00:21:53,901
Speaker 1: I want to figure out why it is that friend's

439
00:21:53,942 --> 00:21:57,702
Speaker 1: friends never work, because they should write logically, it should work.

440
00:21:57,821 --> 00:22:01,182
Speaker 2: So you mean that time when you know your mate

441
00:22:01,222 --> 00:22:03,382
Speaker 2: maybe has a birthday dinner or some kind of and

442
00:22:03,502 --> 00:22:05,421
Speaker 2: you meet this person that you might have been hearing

443
00:22:05,422 --> 00:22:07,462
Speaker 2: about for a long time. Oh, you've got to meet Betty.

444
00:22:07,821 --> 00:22:09,341
Speaker 2: You got to meet Betty. You gotta love Betty and

445
00:22:09,621 --> 00:22:12,141
Speaker 2: meet Betty and you and Betty immediately hated. Yes. Is

446
00:22:12,141 --> 00:22:12,942
Speaker 2: that basically yeah?

447
00:22:12,942 --> 00:22:14,381
Speaker 1: And I want to talk about where that is because

448
00:22:14,381 --> 00:22:16,101
Speaker 1: it shouldn't be like that. There was an article on

449
00:22:16,141 --> 00:22:18,141
Speaker 1: Mum and mea that got me thinking about this, about this,

450
00:22:18,262 --> 00:22:21,421
Speaker 1: and I love the term friends in law. This article

451
00:22:21,462 --> 00:22:23,661
Speaker 1: was by Muma me as Jessica Clark. She had a

452
00:22:23,702 --> 00:22:25,221
Speaker 1: quick quiz on how to tell if you have a

453
00:22:25,222 --> 00:22:26,821
Speaker 1: friend in law. I want to share three of them,

454
00:22:26,861 --> 00:22:28,662
Speaker 1: and I want to see if either of you can

455
00:22:28,702 --> 00:22:30,782
Speaker 1: think of someone in your life who meets this criteria.

456
00:22:30,942 --> 00:22:34,262
Speaker 1: Number one, you've never texted each other outside your WhatsApp

457
00:22:34,302 --> 00:22:37,662
Speaker 1: group chats, unless you count tagging her in a story

458
00:22:37,702 --> 00:22:41,061
Speaker 1: on Instagram with the tag qt. I mean, we've all

459
00:22:41,101 --> 00:22:44,101
Speaker 1: done that. I love that. Maybe not exactly the word cut,

460
00:22:44,341 --> 00:22:45,901
Speaker 1: but I've definitely done things.

461
00:22:46,022 --> 00:22:49,982
Speaker 3: I send like a love heart or like hottie, the stories,

462
00:22:50,141 --> 00:22:51,022
Speaker 3: the fire emoji.

463
00:22:51,101 --> 00:22:54,782
Speaker 1: It's probably hopelessly millennial of this. Number two, you once

464
00:22:54,861 --> 00:22:57,222
Speaker 1: told her your biggest fear in a bathroom stall at

465
00:22:57,222 --> 00:22:59,861
Speaker 1: a mutual friend's birthday dinner. But you've never had a

466
00:22:59,901 --> 00:23:00,621
Speaker 1: coffee together.

467
00:23:00,742 --> 00:23:01,742
Speaker 3: Oh correct, Yeah, that.

468
00:23:01,661 --> 00:23:04,262
Speaker 1: Would be very weird if we should get together, you say,

469
00:23:04,302 --> 00:23:05,982
Speaker 1: and then it's literally never going to happen.

470
00:23:06,022 --> 00:23:06,742
Speaker 3: With bear betrayal.

471
00:23:06,901 --> 00:23:09,542
Speaker 1: My favorite. Number three is when you hear about her

472
00:23:09,661 --> 00:23:12,582
Speaker 1: exclusively via your mutual friend. So, for instance, your friend

473
00:23:12,702 --> 00:23:15,022
Speaker 1: might be like, she's seeing someone new. He's really hot,

474
00:23:15,022 --> 00:23:17,221
Speaker 1: but she's being cool about it, and you act as

475
00:23:17,262 --> 00:23:18,941
Speaker 1: though it's your business, but it's really not.

476
00:23:19,262 --> 00:23:20,942
Speaker 3: Yes, it's my favorite conversation.

477
00:23:21,141 --> 00:23:24,181
Speaker 1: It's my favorite. And so Jessica calls his friend in

478
00:23:24,262 --> 00:23:27,782
Speaker 1: law a social glitch, and she implores you not to

479
00:23:27,901 --> 00:23:31,661
Speaker 1: try and escalate the relationship to an actual friendship. So

480
00:23:31,861 --> 00:23:33,821
Speaker 1: here's the topic that I want to put to you both.

481
00:23:33,861 --> 00:23:36,302
Speaker 1: Thirty five years ago, the movie When Harry Met Sally

482
00:23:36,462 --> 00:23:39,661
Speaker 1: famously asked if men and women could be friends. But

483
00:23:39,702 --> 00:23:41,702
Speaker 1: the question I want to ask you to is, can

484
00:23:41,742 --> 00:23:44,782
Speaker 1: you ever really be friends with your friend's friends? Oh?

485
00:23:44,821 --> 00:23:49,261
Speaker 3: My god, isn't it funny? I've tried, but it's still

486
00:23:50,141 --> 00:23:52,782
Speaker 3: like Holly's friend. Like before, I'd call them my friend.

487
00:23:53,782 --> 00:23:56,141
Speaker 3: And I only see these people in the context of

488
00:23:56,141 --> 00:23:59,861
Speaker 3: a mutual friend. I feel like I can't claim ownership.

489
00:24:00,182 --> 00:24:02,221
Speaker 3: But I find that I have a few what I

490
00:24:02,262 --> 00:24:03,662
Speaker 3: would term crushes.

491
00:24:03,782 --> 00:24:04,982
Speaker 1: Yes, tell us about.

492
00:24:05,222 --> 00:24:08,422
Speaker 3: So I have people who like a really close friend

493
00:24:08,462 --> 00:24:12,542
Speaker 3: of mine has this friend who I'm obsessed with, Like,

494
00:24:12,661 --> 00:24:17,221
Speaker 3: I love hearing about her life, yep, I love following

495
00:24:17,262 --> 00:24:19,462
Speaker 3: her on Instagram. I love it when there's a dinner

496
00:24:19,462 --> 00:24:23,342
Speaker 3: and I know you're her everything. I think she's fantastic,

497
00:24:24,182 --> 00:24:26,222
Speaker 3: But I would never be able to see her without

498
00:24:26,222 --> 00:24:26,861
Speaker 3: the other friend.

499
00:24:27,702 --> 00:24:28,821
Speaker 2: That there is the breach.

500
00:24:29,381 --> 00:24:30,861
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, exactly right?

501
00:24:30,982 --> 00:24:34,502
Speaker 1: Is it a breach? Would you be offended a breach? So?

502
00:24:34,502 --> 00:24:36,302
Speaker 2: I don't know why I feel like that. There are

503
00:24:36,502 --> 00:24:39,221
Speaker 2: different ways in which this dynamic can go wrong. One

504
00:24:39,302 --> 00:24:41,341
Speaker 2: of them is the way that you're talking about, Amilia,

505
00:24:41,381 --> 00:24:42,901
Speaker 2: and we need t more about this in a moment,

506
00:24:42,942 --> 00:24:44,502
Speaker 2: which is you meet your friend's friend and you don't

507
00:24:44,502 --> 00:24:46,982
Speaker 2: get along, and that's a problem in.

508
00:24:47,502 --> 00:24:48,382
Speaker 1: And it's not uncommon.

509
00:24:48,861 --> 00:24:51,542
Speaker 2: It's not uncommon, and we can unpack the reasons why.

510
00:24:51,661 --> 00:24:53,782
Speaker 2: But then the other scenario is you meet your friend's

511
00:24:53,821 --> 00:24:56,141
Speaker 2: friend and you really get along and you would like

512
00:24:56,222 --> 00:24:59,902
Speaker 2: to be proper friends with them, and that brings its

513
00:24:59,901 --> 00:25:02,621
Speaker 2: own problems because if you try and leap frog your

514
00:25:02,661 --> 00:25:06,462
Speaker 2: original friend there to make a connection, unless, of course,

515
00:25:07,141 --> 00:25:09,421
Speaker 2: there's a circumstance in which the other friends out of

516
00:25:09,621 --> 00:25:11,861
Speaker 2: town or maybe they don't live near you, or they're

517
00:25:11,861 --> 00:25:14,821
Speaker 2: busy that night or whatever, then maybe, but it's always

518
00:25:14,861 --> 00:25:16,982
Speaker 2: going to be fraught because then it feels like you're

519
00:25:17,462 --> 00:25:18,542
Speaker 2: stepping over.

520
00:25:18,302 --> 00:25:20,581
Speaker 3: Them, which then brings me to the point. Okay, so

521
00:25:20,621 --> 00:25:24,222
Speaker 3: let's say Holly. Holly has a friend who I love, right,

522
00:25:24,341 --> 00:25:26,381
Speaker 3: I think she just sounds like a really good time

523
00:25:26,581 --> 00:25:28,901
Speaker 3: everything Holly tells me. I'm like, I'm just obsessed with that.

524
00:25:29,022 --> 00:25:29,182
Speaker 1: Right.

525
00:25:29,901 --> 00:25:32,542
Speaker 3: Maybe what I really love is her as a character.

526
00:25:33,222 --> 00:25:35,742
Speaker 3: Maybe I don't need to have a coffee with her,

527
00:25:36,101 --> 00:25:38,742
Speaker 3: but I like the plot. I like staying.

528
00:25:38,502 --> 00:25:41,102
Speaker 1: Across her as the character in the holy plot exactly.

529
00:25:41,141 --> 00:25:42,622
Speaker 3: So when I sit down with Holly, I won't say

530
00:25:42,621 --> 00:25:44,781
Speaker 3: how the kids me and man, no one cares. What

531
00:25:44,821 --> 00:25:47,381
Speaker 3: I will say is, how is Bla going? Tell me

532
00:25:47,422 --> 00:25:50,941
Speaker 3: how that date? But tell me? And I find that

533
00:25:50,942 --> 00:25:54,381
Speaker 3: that's so interesting, that's so true.

534
00:25:54,462 --> 00:25:56,901
Speaker 1: It's like a scriptured drama that you don't have to script, so.

535
00:25:56,942 --> 00:25:59,302
Speaker 2: You don't need to meet those characters necessarily.

536
00:25:59,621 --> 00:26:01,181
Speaker 3: It's fun to meet them every now and then, like

537
00:26:01,182 --> 00:26:01,901
Speaker 3: a celebrity.

538
00:26:01,982 --> 00:26:03,901
Speaker 1: When you do meet them, you're like, I've heard so

539
00:26:03,982 --> 00:26:04,542
Speaker 1: much about it.

540
00:26:04,542 --> 00:26:06,621
Speaker 3: It is a celebrity. Because you're also like, there is

541
00:26:06,661 --> 00:26:08,262
Speaker 3: not a single thing I don't know about it, Like

542
00:26:08,341 --> 00:26:10,542
Speaker 3: I know everything and you you don't really know me.

543
00:26:10,702 --> 00:26:12,421
Speaker 2: So when you meet the friend's friend, and you don't

544
00:26:12,422 --> 00:26:15,302
Speaker 2: get along as per your situation, Amelia, Do you think

545
00:26:15,341 --> 00:26:19,061
Speaker 2: it's often because you think, how could you like both

546
00:26:19,061 --> 00:26:20,421
Speaker 2: of us when we're so different?

547
00:26:20,502 --> 00:26:22,381
Speaker 1: Okay, No, I have a theory. I'm so glad you

548
00:26:22,422 --> 00:26:23,862
Speaker 1: mentioned it, and I'm glad that you broke it down

549
00:26:23,942 --> 00:26:26,702
Speaker 1: to those two categories. It's important that we be rigorous

550
00:26:26,702 --> 00:26:29,061
Speaker 1: in this analysis of friends friends. So back to the

551
00:26:29,141 --> 00:26:32,902
Speaker 1: friend's friend who you can't stand. Here's my theory. Your

552
00:26:32,942 --> 00:26:38,421
Speaker 1: friend's friend is the fun house mirror version of you.

553
00:26:38,422 --> 00:26:40,861
Speaker 1: You think that the friend's friend is gonna be like

554
00:26:40,942 --> 00:26:44,662
Speaker 1: a spin off of your friend, and that's why you think,

555
00:26:44,782 --> 00:26:47,022
Speaker 1: rationally speaking, you should get along with them. They're kind

556
00:26:47,022 --> 00:26:49,022
Speaker 1: of like your friend, but just with a twist. No,

557
00:26:49,661 --> 00:26:53,542
Speaker 1: they're like you with a twist, and that's very confronted.

558
00:26:53,661 --> 00:26:55,821
Speaker 3: So this is like the idea that the people who

559
00:26:55,901 --> 00:26:58,382
Speaker 3: annoy you the most, the people you clash with the most,

560
00:26:58,381 --> 00:26:59,422
Speaker 3: are the ones most like.

561
00:26:59,422 --> 00:27:01,421
Speaker 1: You because they remind you of yourself and all the

562
00:27:01,462 --> 00:27:02,821
Speaker 1: things you can't stand about yourself.

563
00:27:02,901 --> 00:27:04,981
Speaker 3: Maybe I'm a narcissist, So I fall in love with

564
00:27:04,982 --> 00:27:06,262
Speaker 3: my friend's friends because I'm.

565
00:27:06,061 --> 00:27:07,621
Speaker 1: Like, you're interesting.

566
00:27:07,782 --> 00:27:10,061
Speaker 3: You're so interesting and fun and I'm just looking in

567
00:27:10,101 --> 00:27:10,622
Speaker 3: my fun house.

568
00:27:10,621 --> 00:27:13,342
Speaker 1: Well, no, I think I think Holly's right. There are

569
00:27:13,381 --> 00:27:15,741
Speaker 1: the two categories, and we've all had that crush on

570
00:27:15,782 --> 00:27:18,982
Speaker 1: a friend's friend. But I don't feel that I'm protective

571
00:27:19,022 --> 00:27:20,821
Speaker 1: of my friends. I want to just sort of push

572
00:27:20,901 --> 00:27:23,221
Speaker 1: back a little bit. So I do have two friends

573
00:27:23,262 --> 00:27:25,782
Speaker 1: sept from the others that I mentioned, who have become

574
00:27:25,782 --> 00:27:28,741
Speaker 1: better friends with each other than with me, And I

575
00:27:28,942 --> 00:27:31,861
Speaker 1: probably should find this confronting, but I actually find it

576
00:27:31,942 --> 00:27:33,542
Speaker 1: kind of like cozy in a way.

577
00:27:33,901 --> 00:27:35,661
Speaker 3: Yeah, I quite like it. I like the idea of

578
00:27:35,661 --> 00:27:38,221
Speaker 3: bringing people together. It's like a setup, yeah, And I

579
00:27:38,222 --> 00:27:39,821
Speaker 3: feel responsibility for their joy.

580
00:27:39,982 --> 00:27:42,221
Speaker 1: I guess it depends a little bit about how you

581
00:27:42,262 --> 00:27:45,101
Speaker 1: feel about your friend, whether you're secure in that friendship.

582
00:27:45,182 --> 00:27:48,061
Speaker 1: Maybe because when you feel less secure in the friendship

583
00:27:48,101 --> 00:27:50,061
Speaker 1: and they become really good friends with your friend, I

584
00:27:50,101 --> 00:27:52,741
Speaker 1: think that that is more a problem. But if you

585
00:27:53,022 --> 00:27:55,742
Speaker 1: are quite happy to have this friend and you feel

586
00:27:55,861 --> 00:27:58,061
Speaker 1: you're on solid ground with each other, I'm fine with

587
00:27:58,101 --> 00:28:01,381
Speaker 1: them becoming friends with my friends. Holly, what do you think.

588
00:28:01,542 --> 00:28:03,662
Speaker 2: I like to have groups. I don't like to really

589
00:28:03,742 --> 00:28:06,542
Speaker 2: mix the groups up too much. I'm not possessive of

590
00:28:06,542 --> 00:28:09,462
Speaker 2: my friends. I don't think. I think I'm quite fun

591
00:28:09,982 --> 00:28:11,861
Speaker 2: like I like it if people like the people I like,

592
00:28:11,942 --> 00:28:13,782
Speaker 2: you know, it makes your life easier, Let's be honest.

593
00:28:14,262 --> 00:28:16,982
Speaker 2: But there are times when you meet your friend's friend

594
00:28:16,982 --> 00:28:19,461
Speaker 2: and you think, oh, it would be great for us

595
00:28:19,502 --> 00:28:21,181
Speaker 2: to hang out, and do you ever you just know

596
00:28:21,222 --> 00:28:21,581
Speaker 2: you can't.

597
00:28:21,581 --> 00:28:23,621
Speaker 3: Are you ever in the situation where friend A meets

598
00:28:23,621 --> 00:28:25,821
Speaker 3: friend B and you go, oh shit, friend B is

599
00:28:25,861 --> 00:28:28,101
Speaker 3: going to hate friendly and then friend AY says something

600
00:28:28,101 --> 00:28:29,861
Speaker 3: and you're like, you fucked it, And then you've just

601
00:28:29,942 --> 00:28:32,061
Speaker 3: got to sit there in the middle, going, this is

602
00:28:32,101 --> 00:28:34,742
Speaker 3: so offensive, this is so and you can see that

603
00:28:34,782 --> 00:28:35,742
Speaker 3: they're going, you know.

604
00:28:35,702 --> 00:28:39,142
Speaker 2: They're so well comfortable. I get sick even thinking about that,

605
00:28:39,182 --> 00:28:42,461
Speaker 2: because I hate uncomfortable situations. And when you know, you're like,

606
00:28:43,022 --> 00:28:45,021
Speaker 2: don't say it, don't bring that up, don't bring that up,

607
00:28:45,022 --> 00:28:46,222
Speaker 2: don't bring that Oh, here we go.

608
00:28:46,742 --> 00:28:49,022
Speaker 1: But I had a real churning point on that recently

609
00:28:49,182 --> 00:28:53,262
Speaker 1: because I had a birthday dinner for my partner and

610
00:28:53,542 --> 00:28:56,461
Speaker 1: we invited a bunch of people who are in his

611
00:28:56,542 --> 00:29:00,782
Speaker 1: social circle, and I knew that one of the people

612
00:29:00,782 --> 00:29:03,062
Speaker 1: in this circle would hate another person in this circle.

613
00:29:03,742 --> 00:29:06,302
Speaker 1: And I always used to be really nervous about that, because,

614
00:29:06,302 --> 00:29:08,702
Speaker 1: after all, it was me throwing this party. I'd invited

615
00:29:08,702 --> 00:29:11,822
Speaker 1: them both, worried about the responsibility that I had for

616
00:29:11,822 --> 00:29:14,302
Speaker 1: them to get along. But then I realized that as

617
00:29:14,342 --> 00:29:17,181
Speaker 1: both of them started behaving in exactly the predictable ways

618
00:29:17,222 --> 00:29:19,422
Speaker 1: that I expected, and of course hated each other, that's

619
00:29:19,422 --> 00:29:21,902
Speaker 1: not my problem. It's no longer my problem.

620
00:29:22,022 --> 00:29:26,902
Speaker 2: Let them strap in, friends. I'm about to top line

621
00:29:26,942 --> 00:29:29,862
Speaker 2: a shoe scandal for you that goes right to the

622
00:29:29,902 --> 00:29:33,741
Speaker 2: top of one of the country's most powerful institutions, and

623
00:29:33,902 --> 00:29:38,902
Speaker 2: explain how one pair of distressed designer trainers has become

624
00:29:38,942 --> 00:29:42,022
Speaker 2: a symbol for all that is wrong with the management

625
00:29:42,022 --> 00:29:45,062
Speaker 2: of Australia's educational institutions. Are you ready?

626
00:29:45,182 --> 00:29:47,421
Speaker 3: May I get so mad when we pretend to be

627
00:29:47,502 --> 00:29:51,142
Speaker 3: experts to be listening to this guying.

628
00:29:51,262 --> 00:29:53,782
Speaker 2: I know, No, don't worry. I think Amelia is bringing

629
00:29:53,782 --> 00:29:59,142
Speaker 2: some specialist knowledge that upseter will now quickly, I need

630
00:29:59,182 --> 00:30:01,902
Speaker 2: to explain that this segment is not going to explore

631
00:30:01,942 --> 00:30:05,782
Speaker 2: the complexities of a higher education No, no, of an

632
00:30:05,782 --> 00:30:11,982
Speaker 2: important and controversial overhaul of Camberra's Australia National University. We're

633
00:30:12,022 --> 00:30:14,982
Speaker 2: not doing that. I'll put my notes aside. The segment

634
00:30:15,102 --> 00:30:17,902
Speaker 2: is going to explore how shoes have become a symbol

635
00:30:17,902 --> 00:30:20,862
Speaker 2: of struggle for the employees of ANU who have made

636
00:30:21,022 --> 00:30:24,421
Speaker 2: allegations of mismanagement that have been denied. Tiny bit of

637
00:30:24,462 --> 00:30:26,662
Speaker 2: context before we get to the important business of shoes.

638
00:30:27,062 --> 00:30:29,382
Speaker 2: The vice chancellor of A and U and look, I

639
00:30:29,462 --> 00:30:31,742
Speaker 2: famously did not go to university, so I had to

640
00:30:31,782 --> 00:30:34,502
Speaker 2: find out what a vice chancellor does. But they're the boss, right.

641
00:30:35,062 --> 00:30:38,542
Speaker 2: It says vice, but really they're the CEO. They're running things.

642
00:30:38,582 --> 00:30:42,342
Speaker 2: It's a big, important job, right. The vice Chancellor of

643
00:30:42,382 --> 00:30:44,822
Speaker 2: A and U is a woman called Genevieve Bell, and

644
00:30:44,862 --> 00:30:47,422
Speaker 2: her shoe choice is about to matter a lot. But

645
00:30:47,582 --> 00:30:51,342
Speaker 2: her boss the chancellor, which is like a chairman's role.

646
00:30:51,422 --> 00:30:53,021
Speaker 2: So she is the boss boss, but she's not as

647
00:30:53,062 --> 00:30:55,222
Speaker 2: hands on. The vice chancellor is the one who's doing

648
00:30:55,222 --> 00:30:57,502
Speaker 2: all the business. But is a woman who you will

649
00:30:57,542 --> 00:30:59,902
Speaker 2: be familiar with. Her name is Julie Bishop, and of

650
00:30:59,942 --> 00:31:03,022
Speaker 2: course she used to be our foreign minister before she

651
00:31:03,142 --> 00:31:06,342
Speaker 2: strode out of politics in a pair of sparkly red heels.

652
00:31:06,342 --> 00:31:09,021
Speaker 2: Who could forget she was a major player in that

653
00:31:09,142 --> 00:31:13,542
Speaker 2: whole era of like Abbot Turnbull, and famously, when she

654
00:31:13,622 --> 00:31:16,422
Speaker 2: left politics after saying she'd been broadly ignored and sidelined

655
00:31:16,422 --> 00:31:18,741
Speaker 2: and bitched about by her male colleagues, there was a

656
00:31:18,822 --> 00:31:21,462
Speaker 2: famous iconic photograph of all the black shoes of her

657
00:31:21,462 --> 00:31:25,701
Speaker 2: male colleagues and her ruby red Roger Vivier heels that

658
00:31:25,782 --> 00:31:26,902
Speaker 2: are now in a museum.

659
00:31:27,302 --> 00:31:28,261
Speaker 3: Is Roger Vivier?

660
00:31:28,342 --> 00:31:31,382
Speaker 2: Is that an expensive brand, fancy French shoes? And Malia

661
00:31:31,502 --> 00:31:34,262
Speaker 2: is dying? Okay, let's get back to this. So A

662
00:31:34,382 --> 00:31:36,462
Speaker 2: and U is currently in a severe cost cutting phase.

663
00:31:36,582 --> 00:31:39,421
Speaker 2: So are lots of other universities right crisis. We're not

664
00:31:39,422 --> 00:31:42,222
Speaker 2: getting into that, but there are many people who work there,

665
00:31:42,422 --> 00:31:45,902
Speaker 2: former employees and students, who are pissed off about what

666
00:31:45,942 --> 00:31:49,822
Speaker 2: they see as miss management and misplaced parodies in both

667
00:31:49,862 --> 00:31:51,902
Speaker 2: the spending that got A and YOU to this point

668
00:31:51,942 --> 00:31:54,742
Speaker 2: and the way the cuts are being managed now. A

669
00:31:54,862 --> 00:31:57,701
Speaker 2: story in the Nine Newspapers this weekend by Jordan Baker

670
00:31:58,102 --> 00:32:01,182
Speaker 2: said it was particularly the choice of Bell's footwear at

671
00:32:01,182 --> 00:32:04,221
Speaker 2: a university cultural event earlier this year that gave all

672
00:32:04,262 --> 00:32:08,022
Speaker 2: the pissed off employees a symbol for their struggle. You see,

673
00:32:08,102 --> 00:32:13,382
Speaker 2: Genevieve Bell wore a pair of Golden Goose sneakers, Amelia,

674
00:32:14,302 --> 00:32:17,822
Speaker 2: what are golden Goose sneakers?

675
00:32:18,182 --> 00:32:21,862
Speaker 1: Golden Goose sneakers are my Roman Empire. I don't understand

676
00:32:21,902 --> 00:32:24,582
Speaker 1: why anyone wants to wear them. Let me explain. They

677
00:32:24,622 --> 00:32:28,622
Speaker 1: are sneakers that are deliberately scuffed up and distressed, and

678
00:32:28,661 --> 00:32:30,302
Speaker 1: they cost eight hundred dollars.

679
00:32:30,542 --> 00:32:35,102
Speaker 3: I'm quite into them. Why I never noticed shoes I

680
00:32:35,182 --> 00:32:39,782
Speaker 3: don't often notice like markers of class slash status. But

681
00:32:39,862 --> 00:32:42,702
Speaker 3: when I had, like you know, situations where I've met

682
00:32:42,742 --> 00:32:44,781
Speaker 3: up with with other mother's room at the park and

683
00:32:44,822 --> 00:32:48,462
Speaker 3: I spot those shoes, I go, oh, it must be nice.

684
00:32:48,702 --> 00:32:49,902
Speaker 3: Someone is doing well.

685
00:32:50,102 --> 00:32:53,582
Speaker 2: You remember when all fancy people wearing those guccy sneakers

686
00:32:53,582 --> 00:32:55,782
Speaker 2: with the stripes and the gold bumble bee.

687
00:32:55,982 --> 00:32:58,222
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like that, like that.

688
00:32:58,182 --> 00:33:00,382
Speaker 1: Except with all dirt marks.

689
00:33:00,222 --> 00:33:03,262
Speaker 3: It's got a star, like a metallic star on it,

690
00:33:03,582 --> 00:33:06,862
Speaker 3: and it does it looks all worn and scuffy look.

691
00:33:06,862 --> 00:33:10,742
Speaker 1: And celebrities do love them. Beyonce Gnomi, what's Millie, Bobby Brown?

692
00:33:11,182 --> 00:33:13,262
Speaker 1: Lots of people have worn these nig because they've been

693
00:33:13,302 --> 00:33:15,462
Speaker 1: around for a long time. They made the milan. They

694
00:33:15,502 --> 00:33:18,182
Speaker 1: looked to me like someone left them out in the mud.

695
00:33:18,222 --> 00:33:19,982
Speaker 1: For a couple of days, but I guess that's part

696
00:33:19,982 --> 00:33:20,582
Speaker 1: of the appeal.

697
00:33:20,902 --> 00:33:23,822
Speaker 2: Well, Bell wore them to the opening of this important

698
00:33:23,862 --> 00:33:26,902
Speaker 2: cultural center, right, and the choice of her very expensive

699
00:33:26,902 --> 00:33:29,782
Speaker 2: footwear became such a big deal in the context of

700
00:33:29,782 --> 00:33:31,822
Speaker 2: the fact that the university was cutting jobs and everything

701
00:33:32,661 --> 00:33:34,862
Speaker 2: that she actually had to come out and say no, no, no,

702
00:33:35,102 --> 00:33:38,142
Speaker 2: I bought them secondhand on eBay. They were much cheaper

703
00:33:38,142 --> 00:33:40,622
Speaker 2: than you think now considering her salary as a reported

704
00:33:40,702 --> 00:33:43,661
Speaker 2: one point four to seven million, Oh, she probably didn't

705
00:33:43,702 --> 00:33:45,542
Speaker 2: need to find them on eBay, but she had to

706
00:33:45,582 --> 00:33:49,021
Speaker 2: say that she did. Anyway. Between Bell shoes and Bishop shoes,

707
00:33:49,502 --> 00:33:52,662
Speaker 2: this is now political and a website has been started

708
00:33:52,661 --> 00:33:55,342
Speaker 2: called the Shoes of A and U where current and

709
00:33:55,422 --> 00:33:59,062
Speaker 2: former staff post pictures of their shoes, their shitty shoes,

710
00:33:59,142 --> 00:34:02,021
Speaker 2: not their designer scuffed up shoes, but their actual shitty shoes,

711
00:34:02,862 --> 00:34:06,661
Speaker 2: along with a scuffing yeah exactly, along with a complaint

712
00:34:06,702 --> 00:34:09,102
Speaker 2: about what's going on at A ANDU. So on this

713
00:34:09,222 --> 00:34:12,022
Speaker 2: site there are like bare feet from people who are like, look,

714
00:34:12,062 --> 00:34:14,782
Speaker 2: I haven't even got shoes to the walking shoes that

715
00:34:14,862 --> 00:34:18,982
Speaker 2: I walked away with to crocs to trainers, to dms with.

716
00:34:19,062 --> 00:34:21,221
Speaker 2: Then their little story of what's going wrong for them

717
00:34:21,382 --> 00:34:25,062
Speaker 2: at their work, and it's become a big thing. This

718
00:34:25,181 --> 00:34:28,941
Speaker 2: whole shoes as a form of protest jesse, is it

719
00:34:28,942 --> 00:34:31,822
Speaker 2: surprising that shoes are so political? And is there something

720
00:34:31,942 --> 00:34:35,422
Speaker 2: gender coded about this as a choice of protest symbol?

721
00:34:36,062 --> 00:34:39,821
Speaker 3: I reckon there is interestingly a bunch of academics from

722
00:34:39,862 --> 00:34:42,582
Speaker 3: the UNI of written a piece going basically, don't say

723
00:34:42,582 --> 00:34:45,902
Speaker 3: this is about gender. We're really pissed off, justifiably so,

724
00:34:46,102 --> 00:34:47,582
Speaker 3: and so we'll put that to the side. But I

725
00:34:47,582 --> 00:34:52,542
Speaker 3: think the subject of shoes, I wonder if status markers

726
00:34:53,102 --> 00:34:56,582
Speaker 3: for women are more conspicuous than some status markers for men.

727
00:34:56,942 --> 00:35:00,502
Speaker 3: So men can have Hugo Boss shoes on do they

728
00:35:00,542 --> 00:35:01,062
Speaker 3: make shoes?

729
00:35:01,142 --> 00:35:01,821
Speaker 1: I imagine so?

730
00:35:02,221 --> 00:35:04,302
Speaker 3: Or like a really fancy suit, right well.

731
00:35:04,142 --> 00:35:08,142
Speaker 2: Like Paul Keating famously loved an Italian suit, like a

732
00:35:08,302 --> 00:35:12,142
Speaker 2: tailored suit, whereas a different kind of labor leader would

733
00:35:12,181 --> 00:35:14,422
Speaker 2: choose to almost deliberately wear a schlubby suit.

734
00:35:14,781 --> 00:35:18,661
Speaker 3: Yes, but it doesn't have like Hugo Boss written on it, right,

735
00:35:18,741 --> 00:35:21,942
Speaker 3: Like it's a little bit more other than a watch.

736
00:35:22,022 --> 00:35:25,062
Speaker 3: I imagine that a watch is a real marker of

737
00:35:25,221 --> 00:35:27,901
Speaker 3: I've got my rolelex or whatever. Men, I know that's

738
00:35:27,902 --> 00:35:31,741
Speaker 3: what they notice. But for women, there is something about

739
00:35:31,741 --> 00:35:36,181
Speaker 3: having a designer handbag or a shoe that everyone notices.

740
00:35:36,342 --> 00:35:40,181
Speaker 3: And I think that the dynamics of particularly education, there

741
00:35:40,221 --> 00:35:43,062
Speaker 3: is a cliche among academics, and actually a cliche among

742
00:35:43,102 --> 00:35:46,022
Speaker 3: teachers that academics and teachers don't care about how they dress.

743
00:35:46,181 --> 00:35:49,781
Speaker 3: They are there because they are led by their values

744
00:35:49,822 --> 00:35:53,701
Speaker 3: and they are underpaid, right, and so turning up I

745
00:35:53,741 --> 00:35:56,342
Speaker 3: remember lots of lecturers talking about it. Turning up in

746
00:35:56,382 --> 00:35:58,381
Speaker 3: the same genes and the same T shirt every day

747
00:35:58,462 --> 00:36:02,102
Speaker 3: is like part of what they do. So the spectacle

748
00:36:02,142 --> 00:36:06,741
Speaker 3: of someone wearing a really expensive shoe, I understand how

749
00:36:06,741 --> 00:36:10,622
Speaker 3: that's taken on meaning and I don't think that would

750
00:36:10,661 --> 00:36:12,582
Speaker 3: happen to a man. What do you think of mil.

751
00:36:12,661 --> 00:36:15,062
Speaker 1: No, But I think that there are ways in which

752
00:36:15,142 --> 00:36:16,941
Speaker 1: I take that point. But there are ways in which

753
00:36:16,982 --> 00:36:21,861
Speaker 1: women can choose generic outfits or generic clothing that does

754
00:36:21,902 --> 00:36:24,742
Speaker 1: not make the clothing a topic of conversation. Julie Bishop

755
00:36:24,822 --> 00:36:27,301
Speaker 1: knew when she wore sparkly red shoes they were going

756
00:36:27,342 --> 00:36:29,741
Speaker 1: to be a topic of conversation. And I would say,

757
00:36:29,781 --> 00:36:33,622
Speaker 1: golden goose sneakers are pretty ostentatious. When it comes down

758
00:36:33,701 --> 00:36:37,702
Speaker 1: to it, they're very recognizable. So I'm thinking, for instance,

759
00:36:37,741 --> 00:36:40,862
Speaker 1: of Penny Wong, Hillary Clinton. I don't know what shoes

760
00:36:40,902 --> 00:36:42,421
Speaker 1: they wear, do you No?

761
00:36:42,502 --> 00:36:44,661
Speaker 2: I remember when Julia Gillard, I think she was on

762
00:36:44,701 --> 00:36:47,142
Speaker 2: the record as saying that every day when she got dressed.

763
00:36:47,142 --> 00:36:48,781
Speaker 2: The question she was trying to answer is like, what

764
00:36:48,781 --> 00:36:50,861
Speaker 2: can I wear that no one will talk about that

765
00:36:50,982 --> 00:36:52,901
Speaker 2: answer that question is not golden.

766
00:36:52,622 --> 00:36:56,301
Speaker 3: Goose, even like your Mark Zuckerberg's or whatever often wear

767
00:36:56,342 --> 00:37:00,022
Speaker 3: like a New Balance, or Obama would wear Stan Smiths,

768
00:37:00,181 --> 00:37:02,781
Speaker 3: which aren't cheap, They're not fifty bucks, but they are

769
00:37:02,942 --> 00:37:05,582
Speaker 3: widely accessible, Like you'd often walk into a workplace and

770
00:37:05,622 --> 00:37:08,822
Speaker 3: see Stan Smith. Could he have afforded the most expensive

771
00:37:08,822 --> 00:37:11,221
Speaker 3: trainers in the world. Yes, but that was clearly a

772
00:37:11,221 --> 00:37:13,781
Speaker 3: conscious choice to be like I'm the every Now.

773
00:37:13,902 --> 00:37:17,622
Speaker 2: It's also about values, right because to your point before, Jesse,

774
00:37:17,741 --> 00:37:20,942
Speaker 2: about in academic circles, it's kind of not cool to

775
00:37:21,102 --> 00:37:23,702
Speaker 2: appear to care about what you look like. I feel

776
00:37:23,701 --> 00:37:25,821
Speaker 2: that deeply because I grew up although I didn't go

777
00:37:25,862 --> 00:37:28,221
Speaker 2: to university. I'm a deep disappointment to my parents, who

778
00:37:28,221 --> 00:37:30,862
Speaker 2: both worked in education forever, and my dad was a

779
00:37:30,982 --> 00:37:34,422
Speaker 2: university lecturer. So these people I understand them like a

780
00:37:34,502 --> 00:37:38,782
Speaker 2: roup around them, and they would never have spent money

781
00:37:38,822 --> 00:37:42,342
Speaker 2: on designer shoes now quite distaste. Obviously there's a question

782
00:37:42,382 --> 00:37:44,421
Speaker 2: there of whether or not they could have afforded them,

783
00:37:44,422 --> 00:37:46,182
Speaker 2: and that is a different question in a way, because

784
00:37:46,462 --> 00:37:48,661
Speaker 2: there were other things they would spend money on. They

785
00:37:48,661 --> 00:37:51,102
Speaker 2: would go on holiday to France, which obviously from England

786
00:37:51,142 --> 00:37:52,901
Speaker 2: is cheaper than to hear. But you know what I mean,

787
00:37:52,942 --> 00:37:56,502
Speaker 2: Like an overseas holiday, fine, particularly if it's to somewhere

788
00:37:56,542 --> 00:37:59,622
Speaker 2: like you know, culturally rich and historic. That's a fine

789
00:37:59,622 --> 00:38:03,021
Speaker 2: state of symbol. But shoes like, oh, that's a little

790
00:38:03,022 --> 00:38:06,142
Speaker 2: bit you know, I don't know, there's a reverse snobbery

791
00:38:06,181 --> 00:38:08,422
Speaker 2: there about what it says about you. That's sort of

792
00:38:08,462 --> 00:38:09,901
Speaker 2: cultural and so.

793
00:38:09,902 --> 00:38:12,542
Speaker 1: I feel like saying, oh, but we wouldn't say this

794
00:38:12,622 --> 00:38:15,142
Speaker 1: about men. It's a little bit of a cop out

795
00:38:15,221 --> 00:38:17,661
Speaker 1: because in choosing the golden goose sneakers or the red

796
00:38:17,701 --> 00:38:21,502
Speaker 1: Sparkley heel, you are asking people to pay attention to

797
00:38:21,582 --> 00:38:24,222
Speaker 1: the shoe choice that is not a generic shoe choice.

798
00:38:24,382 --> 00:38:28,502
Speaker 1: Think like, for instance, justinto Ardurn wore all bird sneakers

799
00:38:28,622 --> 00:38:32,462
Speaker 1: when she first became premnicable company Sustainable, a company that

800
00:38:32,542 --> 00:38:34,701
Speaker 1: started in New Zealand. She knew that the shoes are

801
00:38:34,741 --> 00:38:36,981
Speaker 1: going to send a message. So you got to choose

802
00:38:37,022 --> 00:38:38,941
Speaker 1: what message you want to send. And when you're wearing

803
00:38:38,982 --> 00:38:41,701
Speaker 1: golden Goose sneakers that are deliberately scuffed up for eight

804
00:38:41,781 --> 00:38:44,821
Speaker 1: hundred dollars, you are sending a message. Or think about

805
00:38:44,822 --> 00:38:48,462
Speaker 1: for instance, Kamala Harris, when she was first elected vice president,

806
00:38:48,502 --> 00:38:50,502
Speaker 1: she was on the cover of Vogue wearing some black

807
00:38:50,622 --> 00:38:53,582
Speaker 1: Converse all Stars. Now, some people thought that that was

808
00:38:53,622 --> 00:38:56,501
Speaker 1: really inappropriate to be the vice president on the cover

809
00:38:56,542 --> 00:38:59,462
Speaker 1: of Vogue wearing sneakers, but she saw it as the

810
00:38:59,502 --> 00:39:02,142
Speaker 1: message she wanted to illustrate was I'm getting to work,

811
00:39:02,181 --> 00:39:04,942
Speaker 1: I'm getting going I'm not worried about these frivolous things.

812
00:39:04,982 --> 00:39:07,822
Speaker 1: So I think we had to accept that, particularly for women,

813
00:39:07,942 --> 00:39:10,822
Speaker 1: your clothing is going to send a mesa. What's that message?

814
00:39:10,902 --> 00:39:12,421
Speaker 1: It's fair game for us to talk about.

815
00:39:12,542 --> 00:39:15,702
Speaker 2: Well, what this has done is it's given a galvanizing

816
00:39:15,781 --> 00:39:18,741
Speaker 2: symbol to a group of disaffected people. Right, So the

817
00:39:19,022 --> 00:39:21,901
Speaker 2: people who are pissed off with this management, and they

818
00:39:22,142 --> 00:39:23,701
Speaker 2: insist that it has nothing to do with gender, and

819
00:39:23,701 --> 00:39:26,062
Speaker 2: I have no reason to disbelieve them have now got

820
00:39:26,062 --> 00:39:28,942
Speaker 2: a thing to galvanize around. So and there are posters

821
00:39:28,942 --> 00:39:32,942
Speaker 2: popping up all over the campus that say resist Sneaker Capitalism.

822
00:39:33,022 --> 00:39:36,062
Speaker 2: And it's kind of given a symbol and something to

823
00:39:36,142 --> 00:39:38,861
Speaker 2: post and something to talk about, which is what you

824
00:39:38,982 --> 00:39:42,942
Speaker 2: need for a movement, right, Very clever these universities, that

825
00:39:43,062 --> 00:39:45,582
Speaker 2: isn't it. But so it's almost like the shoes are

826
00:39:45,582 --> 00:39:48,861
Speaker 2: by the bye, except its juicy that we would be

827
00:39:48,902 --> 00:39:50,821
Speaker 2: talking about it. That story in the Nine Papers was

828
00:39:50,822 --> 00:39:52,701
Speaker 2: wrong with it with the headline and the photographs, because

829
00:39:52,701 --> 00:39:55,462
Speaker 2: you've given people something to hang your attention on.

830
00:39:55,781 --> 00:39:59,342
Speaker 3: Do we think or do we want our rich people

831
00:39:59,502 --> 00:40:02,142
Speaker 3: to behave like poor people? Because the real story here

832
00:40:02,462 --> 00:40:04,901
Speaker 3: is a disparity between how much the vice chancellor rounds,

833
00:40:04,902 --> 00:40:06,821
Speaker 3: which is a source of tension in just about every

834
00:40:06,902 --> 00:40:09,982
Speaker 3: university in the country, how much they earn as opposed

835
00:40:10,022 --> 00:40:13,901
Speaker 3: to the academics were either casualized or have literally lost

836
00:40:13,902 --> 00:40:14,582
Speaker 3: their jobs, or.

837
00:40:14,622 --> 00:40:16,982
Speaker 2: Like the courses they're choosing to cut. Yeah, like the

838
00:40:17,062 --> 00:40:19,622
Speaker 2: decisions that are being made inside the university about what

839
00:40:19,701 --> 00:40:22,102
Speaker 2: matters and what the values are and which courses we're sustaining,

840
00:40:22,142 --> 00:40:24,022
Speaker 2: which ones are investing in which ones we're doing away with?

841
00:40:24,982 --> 00:40:26,262
Speaker 1: It is the yearly?

842
00:40:26,342 --> 00:40:28,502
Speaker 3: Is the salary not the shoes?

843
00:40:28,622 --> 00:40:28,781
Speaker 2: Yes?

844
00:40:28,822 --> 00:40:30,102
Speaker 3: So, but is it kind of like.

845
00:40:30,902 --> 00:40:32,901
Speaker 2: It's ingenuous to go, we know how much you're making,

846
00:40:32,942 --> 00:40:34,701
Speaker 2: but I expect you to wear Doc Martins.

847
00:40:34,422 --> 00:40:36,622
Speaker 3: Or yeah, exactly right, if it Doc Martin's. I mean,

848
00:40:36,622 --> 00:40:39,502
Speaker 3: they're not too cheap, But like, yeah, is that do

849
00:40:39,582 --> 00:40:41,821
Speaker 3: we want to pretend like she's the every woman when

850
00:40:41,862 --> 00:40:42,261
Speaker 3: she's not.

851
00:40:42,661 --> 00:40:45,142
Speaker 1: But these sneakers are eight hundred dollars. There are plenty

852
00:40:45,142 --> 00:40:47,821
Speaker 1: of sneakers that are not eight hundred dollars. I think

853
00:40:47,862 --> 00:40:50,462
Speaker 1: that's a choice. I wanted to interrogate my own viewpoint

854
00:40:50,462 --> 00:40:53,181
Speaker 1: on this, and I thought, have we ever talked about

855
00:40:53,221 --> 00:40:56,102
Speaker 1: a man's shoes in public life? And I came up

856
00:40:56,142 --> 00:41:00,102
Speaker 1: with two examples. One is the American politician Ronda Santis,

857
00:41:00,261 --> 00:41:03,261
Speaker 1: who wears cowboy boots that people believe have a bit

858
00:41:03,302 --> 00:41:07,262
Speaker 1: of a lift in them because cabobits are already slightly healed,

859
00:41:07,382 --> 00:41:10,422
Speaker 1: but people think that his were made be more healed.

860
00:41:10,862 --> 00:41:13,701
Speaker 1: And the other one is Jeff Bezos, pretty famously wears

861
00:41:13,781 --> 00:41:15,341
Speaker 1: lifts in his sneakers.

862
00:41:16,542 --> 00:41:17,901
Speaker 3: A lift something that makes you taller.

863
00:41:17,982 --> 00:41:22,142
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, because for men height, there's a big deal.

864
00:41:22,622 --> 00:41:25,181
Speaker 1: Interesting. So you can look at men's sneakers, when men

865
00:41:25,261 --> 00:41:27,382
Speaker 1: wear sneakers in public, and if it seems like the

866
00:41:27,502 --> 00:41:30,062
Speaker 1: soul is a little bit taller than it normally is,

867
00:41:30,142 --> 00:41:31,181
Speaker 1: it may well be a lift.

868
00:41:31,302 --> 00:41:34,982
Speaker 2: So when we interrogate men's shoes, we're doing it as

869
00:41:35,022 --> 00:41:38,982
Speaker 2: a way to interrogate something they apparently lack. And obviously

870
00:41:39,062 --> 00:41:41,301
Speaker 2: I'm not saying that short men lack anything, but in

871
00:41:41,502 --> 00:41:45,341
Speaker 2: their minds that they apparently lack. Whereas when we're interrogating

872
00:41:45,422 --> 00:41:47,901
Speaker 2: women's shoes, we're reading it as a bit of a

873
00:41:48,022 --> 00:41:50,862
Speaker 2: read on their character in a different way. What they have, Yeah,

874
00:41:50,982 --> 00:41:53,301
Speaker 2: you have, and how frivolous you are, and how much

875
00:41:53,302 --> 00:41:56,661
Speaker 2: it matters to you that your shoes are fancy and etc. Etc.

876
00:41:57,422 --> 00:42:01,022
Speaker 2: I've got another one. Rishi sunak So, the former British

877
00:42:01,022 --> 00:42:03,461
Speaker 2: Prime minister who was deeply unpopular and lost the election

878
00:42:03,542 --> 00:42:07,422
Speaker 2: in an absolute landslide. But he was once photographed wearing

879
00:42:07,462 --> 00:42:08,462
Speaker 2: Adidas sambas.

880
00:42:08,502 --> 00:42:10,622
Speaker 3: I think I've got them on today, yes.

881
00:42:10,582 --> 00:42:12,662
Speaker 2: And it got so picked up that he was wearing

882
00:42:12,741 --> 00:42:15,261
Speaker 2: these in a profile piece or whatever that he had

883
00:42:15,261 --> 00:42:18,261
Speaker 2: to apologize because he'd given added us Samber's a bad name,

884
00:42:20,342 --> 00:42:22,022
Speaker 2: and no one wanted to wear them anymore because they

885
00:42:22,062 --> 00:42:24,382
Speaker 2: were like, we don't want to wear Rishi's shoes, so

886
00:42:24,622 --> 00:42:26,582
Speaker 2: you know, maybe it does sometimes hit the man.

887
00:42:26,661 --> 00:42:28,702
Speaker 1: And Rishie was famously wealthy, right.

888
00:42:28,622 --> 00:42:31,382
Speaker 2: Yeah, Rishi soon a very wealthy man married to a

889
00:42:31,502 --> 00:42:33,301
Speaker 2: very wealthy woman. And it was one of the things

890
00:42:33,302 --> 00:42:35,421
Speaker 2: that was frequently used to criticize them was how could

891
00:42:35,462 --> 00:42:38,142
Speaker 2: they possibly understand what the average brick is going through

892
00:42:38,181 --> 00:42:41,422
Speaker 2: in this cost of living crisis and his choice to

893
00:42:41,462 --> 00:42:45,502
Speaker 2: wear Sambers, which, to your point, Jesse, are a bit expensive. Yeah, yeah,

894
00:42:45,582 --> 00:42:49,102
Speaker 2: they're not cheap cheap, but they're not eight hundred dollars expensive,

895
00:42:49,462 --> 00:42:51,181
Speaker 2: was seen as a bit of a deliberate play to

896
00:42:51,181 --> 00:42:54,861
Speaker 2: be in every Man as slightly cool every man out

897
00:42:54,862 --> 00:42:58,342
Speaker 2: louders Happy Monday. I hope you've enjoyed our show today.

898
00:42:58,422 --> 00:43:00,622
Speaker 2: We're obviously going to be back in your ears tomorrow.

899
00:43:00,661 --> 00:43:03,462
Speaker 2: A massive thanks as always to our talented team for

900
00:43:03,502 --> 00:43:05,222
Speaker 2: helping us put this together, and.

901
00:43:05,422 --> 00:43:08,262
Speaker 3: Back to bron I actually want to send as well

902
00:43:08,302 --> 00:43:11,982
Speaker 3: the biggest shout out to woman named Lee who basically

903
00:43:12,022 --> 00:43:14,542
Speaker 3: this is a story right a year ago, Broun puts.

904
00:43:14,261 --> 00:43:17,102
Speaker 2: Her message in and she goes I'm in the Outluders.

905
00:43:17,102 --> 00:43:19,622
Speaker 3: In the out Louders Facebook group, bron says it was

906
00:43:19,661 --> 00:43:22,142
Speaker 3: my birthday. No one wished me a happy birthday. No

907
00:43:22,181 --> 00:43:24,582
Speaker 3: one made a fuss. I'm the person who always makes

908
00:43:24,582 --> 00:43:28,022
Speaker 3: a fuss, and I'm feeling I feel petulant, but I

909
00:43:28,062 --> 00:43:32,181
Speaker 3: also just feel sad about this right And Lee was like,

910
00:43:32,221 --> 00:43:33,582
Speaker 3: you know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna put a

911
00:43:33,582 --> 00:43:35,942
Speaker 3: note my calendar to remind myself in a year to

912
00:43:36,022 --> 00:43:38,062
Speaker 3: wish this woman a happy birthday in the out Louders

913
00:43:38,382 --> 00:43:41,262
Speaker 3: And now, along with hundreds of others, they've all gone

914
00:43:41,382 --> 00:43:42,022
Speaker 3: happy Birthday.

915
00:43:42,542 --> 00:43:43,462
Speaker 1: And I just think it's.

916
00:43:43,342 --> 00:43:45,461
Speaker 3: A reminder that when the people in your life don't

917
00:43:45,502 --> 00:43:48,142
Speaker 3: hold you, the out Louders do, they are the head

918
00:43:48,781 --> 00:43:51,741
Speaker 3: to make a fuss. So look, the out Louders is

919
00:43:51,781 --> 00:43:54,062
Speaker 3: just the best place on the internet. We love it there.

920
00:43:54,342 --> 00:43:55,462
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Lee.

921
00:43:55,582 --> 00:43:56,662
Speaker 2: Happy birthday, Braun.

922
00:43:56,902 --> 00:43:58,782
Speaker 3: We want to make a fuss about the out Louders

923
00:43:58,862 --> 00:44:01,142
Speaker 3: who take it upon themselves to just because there have

924
00:44:01,221 --> 00:44:04,261
Speaker 3: been outrageous acts of kindness in that group, and I

925
00:44:04,261 --> 00:44:06,461
Speaker 3: would love a name for it so that we can

926
00:44:06,582 --> 00:44:11,502
Speaker 3: just acknowledge there is no one more generous, helpful, than

927
00:44:11,502 --> 00:44:13,861
Speaker 3: the outlouders in that group, So jump in and tell

928
00:44:13,942 --> 00:44:16,422
Speaker 3: us what we should call it, and whatever it is,

929
00:44:16,502 --> 00:44:19,422
Speaker 3: whatever the award is Lee want it for this week.

930
00:44:19,741 --> 00:44:23,382
Speaker 3: Bye bye. Shout out to any Mum and me A

931
00:44:23,462 --> 00:44:26,301
Speaker 3: subscribers listening. If you love the show and you want

932
00:44:26,302 --> 00:44:29,341
Speaker 3: to support us, subscribing to MoMA Mia is the very

933
00:44:29,422 --> 00:44:31,741
Speaker 3: best way to do so. There's a link in the

934
00:44:31,781 --> 00:44:32,622
Speaker 3: episode description.