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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to MoMA Mia out Loud. It's what

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Speaker 2: women are actually talking about on Monday, the twenty second

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Speaker 2: of September. I'm Holly Waynwright and I am back from

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Speaker 2: a sick bed where I have been laid up with

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Speaker 2: the flu for a little while, dying to be back

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Speaker 2: talking to you.

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Speaker 3: I'm Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 4: I'm very excited that Holly is back and Maya has

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Speaker 4: officially gone on holiday.

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Speaker 2: She has, she's actually left the country.

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Speaker 5: She did tell me she downloaded the entire three seasons

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Speaker 5: of the Summer Return Pretty to watch on the plane,

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Speaker 5: so prepare for that. When she returns, we'll fly. I

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Speaker 5: should probably introduce myself. Hello, I'm Claire Murphy. You can

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Speaker 5: usually hear me on Momma MIA's twice daily news podcast,

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Speaker 5: The Quickie and on Well for all your women's health

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Speaker 5: information and funny and gross stuff that our bodies do.

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Speaker 2: Funny and gross stuff. My body's been doing some very

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Speaker 2: funny and gross Murphy. We'll talk offline about that later. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: Here's what's made our agenda for today.

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Speaker 5: Jimmy Kimmel's late night show was pulled off the air

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Speaker 5: last week. There's been a lot of conversation around it, politically, morally, constitutionally,

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Speaker 5: but what does that all mean?

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Speaker 1: Does it matter? And should we be freaking out?

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Speaker 2: I don't want to alarm you out louders, but we

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Speaker 2: know that you always have a little cry on your

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Speaker 2: birthday and.

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Speaker 1: We know why you do.

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Speaker 4: And the wife guy is back, but this time without

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Speaker 4: his wife. I'm going to explain one of the most

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Speaker 4: ambitious comebacks in all of Internet history.

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Speaker 3: But first, Jesse, in case you missed it.

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Speaker 4: This morning Australian Time, a memorial service was held for

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Speaker 4: conservative activist Charlie Kirk at a stadium in Phoenix, Arizona,

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Speaker 4: and estimated two hundred thousand people gathered in and around

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Speaker 4: the stadium and all the speakers were shielded by bullet

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Speaker 4: proof glass on the stage, which is something we haven't

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Speaker 4: seen before. Attendees were also encouraged to wear red, white or.

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Speaker 3: Blue to the service.

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Speaker 4: Speakers included Robert F. Kennedy, Charlie Kirk's wife Erica Kirk,

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Speaker 4: Donald Trump Junior, who was very close to Kirk, and

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Speaker 4: of course President Donald Trump, who spoke last. Erica Kirk

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Speaker 4: declared that she had forgiven the man who allegedly killed

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Speaker 4: her husband, and her address had this real focus on love,

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Speaker 4: which was in stark contrast to Donald Trump's speech which followed.

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Speaker 4: The President said I hate my opponents, and I don't

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Speaker 4: want what's best for them. He referred to networks of

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Speaker 4: radical left maniacs who were to blame for Kirk's murder.

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Speaker 4: He also repeated the words fight, fight, fight, which you

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Speaker 4: might remember from after his attempted assassination last year. He

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Speaker 4: also referred to Kirk as a martyr, a patriot. He

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Speaker 4: is awarding Kirk posthumously with the Presidential Medal of Freedom,

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Speaker 4: which is a higher civilian honor. Many speakers cited this

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Speaker 4: battle between good and evil and said that there was

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Speaker 4: this struggle going on. Donald Trump Junior asked the crowd,

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Speaker 4: will you surrender? Will you back down? Will you give

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Speaker 4: up in fear? And Look, the headline is that Kirk

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Speaker 4: was used as a symbol for all that is great

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Speaker 4: about America. I think even with the colors that people

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Speaker 4: were encouraged to wear, it was about patriotism and this,

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Speaker 4: you know, almost a suggestion of some sort of civil

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Speaker 4: war that's going on in the US at the moment.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting though, because as you've said, that's not what

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Speaker 2: Erica Kirk was talking about. And the parts of it

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Speaker 2: that I've watched this morning, and obviously we're recording, you know,

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Speaker 2: at eleven thirty, it's sort of just finished. It was

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Speaker 2: like a show, and there was a very distinct difference

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Speaker 2: between Erica Kirk, who was very clearly incredibly emotional, incredibly devastated,

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Speaker 2: incredibly gracious, you have to say in saying what she

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Speaker 2: said about her incredibly immoving, and she said.

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Speaker 1: The answer to he is not hate. The answer we

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Speaker 1: know from the Gospel is love and always love.

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Speaker 2: And then, as you've said, Jesse, there's that beautiful, gracious

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Speaker 2: message that I wonder if people can actually hear. And

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Speaker 2: then you had like Donald Trump Junior treating it like

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Speaker 2: a stand up show. He was throwing out some jokes.

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Speaker 2: He made some Kamala jokes, some Hillary jokes, you know,

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Speaker 2: all the old hits from the MAGA, right, Trump preaching

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Speaker 2: how much he hates everybody. It just seemed like such

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Speaker 2: a stark contrast. Like I think so much of this

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Speaker 2: conversation is between the very human loss of a person

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Speaker 2: and then this huge existential war that seems to have

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Speaker 2: been very much fanned by this assassination.

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Speaker 4: Which isn't about Kirk at all, really, you know, and

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Speaker 4: there's a lot to be said for the left and

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Speaker 4: the way that they've discussed, the rhetoric that they've used,

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Speaker 4: the vitriol that's come in the aftermath. But it reminded

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Speaker 4: me that while the left has dehumanized Kirk, so is

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Speaker 4: a right like they've used Kirk as a symbol, and

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Speaker 4: they very much did. And when Trump got up, he

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Speaker 4: was at a rally. He was at a rally, and

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Speaker 4: he talked about twenty twenty and how that election was

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Speaker 4: stolen from him and Joe Biden.

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Speaker 5: He made some kind of policy announcement too, in the

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Speaker 5: middle of all of that, apparently.

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Speaker 4: Exactly some medical announcement. And there are reports that people left,

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Speaker 4: which I found really interesting when he started to speak,

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Speaker 4: because it did feel really disrespectful.

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Speaker 5: You know what's really crazy about looking at this memorial

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Speaker 5: today is that until September ten, I had never even

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Speaker 5: heard of Charlie Kirk. I have no idea who he was,

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Speaker 5: except in real vague passing. I'd seen videos on my

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Speaker 5: social media feed of him doing those debates with people,

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Speaker 5: but it was most often positioned from the person who

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Speaker 5: was debating him, rather than him.

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Speaker 1: And his debate.

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Speaker 5: But now, not only do I know who Charlie Kirk is.

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Speaker 5: I watched that man die almost in real time, which

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Speaker 5: was horrific to witness, and then not long after that,

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Speaker 5: I was given conflicting stories as to who his alleged

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Speaker 5: shooter was, his political allegiances, who he's chose to spend.

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Speaker 1: His time with.

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Speaker 5: This whole situation from the very get go, felt very

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Speaker 5: dirty and awful, and we all have participated in it,

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Speaker 5: whether it's from watching the videos, whether it's making a

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Speaker 5: comment about Charlie Kirk or his rhetoric, whether it's about

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Speaker 5: celebrating his death, which some have done, whether it's those

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Speaker 5: right wing factions who've now collectively got together to bring

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Speaker 5: down anyone who even mentions Charlie Kirk's name, to the

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Speaker 5: politicians who are speaking at these particular events trying to

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Speaker 5: muster up that same kind of energy that we heard

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Speaker 5: for January six, it all feels very performative. It all

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Speaker 5: feels like everyone is in it for themselves, and it

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Speaker 5: feels like this is where we absolutely expected to be

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Speaker 5: at this point in time.

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Speaker 1: I'm really not shocked by any of it.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's very hard to be shocked by anything now

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Speaker 2: to be I'd suggest that Erica Kirk doesn't seem like

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Speaker 2: she's in it for herself. I mean, she did say

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Speaker 2: in her speech about Charlie, she said that she's going

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Speaker 2: to take on his work and she's going to become

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Speaker 2: the CEO of Turning Point USA and absolutely going to

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Speaker 2: keep moving with that, which is deeply understandable given the

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Speaker 2: kind of person Charlie Kirk was and the mission that

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Speaker 2: she says their family shared. But it's just that juxtaposition

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Speaker 2: between a very human grief and then this intense politicization. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: what we're going to talk about next is kind of adjacent, right, Murphy.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, because obviously the fallout, as I mentioned, there's been

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Speaker 5: a lot of collective movements coming together to stop any

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Speaker 5: conversation about Charlie Kirk's murder from anyone who's considered vaguely

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Speaker 5: left of center. So obviously one of those big fallouts

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Speaker 5: is Jimmy Kimmel. So, if you have not heard, late

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Speaker 5: night talk show host Jimmy Kimmel is currently off the air.

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Speaker 5: He's been indefinitely suspended by the ABC after making this

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Speaker 5: comment about the Charlie Kirk assassination.

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Speaker 2: New rose over.

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Speaker 6: Then with the Magga Gang desperately trying to characterize this

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Speaker 6: kid who murdered Charlie Kirk as anything other than one

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Speaker 6: of them and do everything they can to score political

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Speaker 6: points from it. In between the finger pointing, there was grieving.

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Speaker 6: On Friday, the White House flew the flags at half staff,

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Speaker 6: which got some criticism, but on a human level, you

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Speaker 6: can see how hard the President is taking this half.

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Speaker 4: Indulghos on the low finger friend Charlie Kirk asked, sir personally,

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Speaker 4: how are you holding up over the last day and

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Speaker 4: a half served?

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Speaker 6: I think very good. And by the way, right there

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Speaker 6: you see all the trucks.

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Speaker 7: They've just started construction of.

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Speaker 5: The new Baurold to the White House, which is something

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Speaker 5: they've been trying to get.

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Speaker 6: As you know, for about one hundred and fifty years.

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Speaker 7: And it's going to be a beauty.

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Speaker 6: Yes, he's at the fourth stage of grief construction. There's demolition.

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Speaker 2: Construction.

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Speaker 6: This is not how an adult griefs the murderer of

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Speaker 6: someone he called a friend. This is how a four

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Speaker 6: year old morns a goldfish.

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Speaker 2: Okay, can I just jump in and ask you about Kimmel,

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Speaker 2: because if you're not massively conversant in American late night culture,

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Speaker 2: we know that there are these big shows that have dominated,

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Speaker 2: or they certainly used to dominate American political discourse in

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Speaker 2: the late nights. But I always get my Jimmy's mixed. Ye,

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Speaker 2: So there's Jimmy fallon. Yes, it was much as a

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Speaker 2: little bit more like he always seems a bit more

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Speaker 2: mischievous he used to be on Saturday Night. Like Kimmel

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Speaker 2: is the one who's hosted the Oscars a couple of times, right, right,

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Speaker 2: and Trump has always kind of hated him. I remembered

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Speaker 2: alive on stage at the Oscars, Trump was tweeting about him,

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Speaker 2: and he was reading out the quotes, right, And kim

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Speaker 2: OL's been a big force there for a long time too.

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Speaker 1: Yes.

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Speaker 5: Also, after it was announced that Stephen Colbert, who's another

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Speaker 5: one of these late night hosts, that his show was

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Speaker 5: being canceled in twenty twenty six, Trump put out on

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Speaker 5: his social media that Kimmel would be next, which and

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Speaker 5: indeed indeed he is. So After those comments were made

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Speaker 5: on Kimmel's show, conservative commentators came down really hard. One

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Speaker 5: had said that he's painted all of the MAGA movement

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Speaker 5: with the same brush, essentially calling all of them collectively murderers.

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Speaker 5: Elon Musk then weighed in he was at the memorial today.

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Speaker 5: Elon Musk was called Kimmel disgusting. X then was lit

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Speaker 5: up with conservative voices, and that echo chamber spread out

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Speaker 5: far and wide across the Internet. The ABC then received

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Speaker 5: pressure from the Federal Communications Commission, which is a government

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Speaker 5: department that oversees media in the US. The chairman warned

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Speaker 5: the ABC that they would pull their broadcast license and

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Speaker 5: calling Kimmel's comments truly sick. Now, there are also major

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Speaker 5: broadcast companies that take Jimmy Kimmel Show and broadcast it

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Speaker 5: to stations across America. So they came together and said

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Speaker 5: that they would pull Kimmel's show. Advertisers were being targeted.

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Speaker 5: Some employees were also receiving threatening messages. So they bowed

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Speaker 5: to the pressure and ABC stood Kimmel down. There is,

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Speaker 5: of course, a lot which we do not have time

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Speaker 5: to fully deconstruct here today going on up and down

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Speaker 5: that chain. So these big companies like the ABC, they

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Speaker 5: need government approval for acquisitions because they've got many fingers

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Speaker 5: in many pies, and they won't get that if they,

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Speaker 5: for example, from himmat with them, if Trump is angry

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Speaker 5: with them over Jimmy Kimmel.

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Speaker 2: It's also worth pointing out that when we say the ABC,

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Speaker 2: we don't mean the Australian Broadcasting Corporations. Yes, even though

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Speaker 2: the Australian ABC says they've been getting a lot of.

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Speaker 5: Complaints about they have hundreds and hundreds which they put

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Speaker 5: up on their social media just yesterday, and they also

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Speaker 5: put an email address for who to actually complain to

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Speaker 5: if they.

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Speaker 1: Were like, this is not us.

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Speaker 2: Guys, Yes, it's not us.

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Speaker 1: We did not do anything.

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Speaker 2: Has he been fired forever Murphy or has he been like,

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Speaker 2: has anyone given an indication of how long Kimmel is

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Speaker 2: sitting on the bench for and he hasn't spoken about it.

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Speaker 1: Has he has not? Sobly sitting with his lawyer?

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Speaker 5: Yes, so he is currently in talks with his lawyers.

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Speaker 5: The reports are is that he is very concerned about

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Speaker 5: his staff because apparently reportedly he said that he's very

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Speaker 5: worried about them. They're still financially recovering from the writers'

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Speaker 5: strike that happened a year or two ago, so he's

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Speaker 5: in talks, but obviously there is one of the those

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Speaker 5: broadcast companies that I talked about pulling Kimmel show. They

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Speaker 5: have asked for him to apologize formally to also pay

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Speaker 5: Charlie Kirk's family money and pay Kirk's foundation money as

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Speaker 5: well his nonprofit. So they said that will pave the

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Speaker 5: path for his return to the airwaves. But of course,

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Speaker 5: the conversation here is now, how do the late night

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Speaker 5: show hosts respond to this, because they under threat of

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Speaker 5: also being kicked off the air if they make jokes

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Speaker 5: about this situation.

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Speaker 2: Well, and also the conversation seems to have gone to Jesse.

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Speaker 2: This is the beginning of the end of free speech, right,

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Speaker 2: because when this happened on Thursday, my feeds were suddenly

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Speaker 2: flooded by lots of well known American leftist comedians. When

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Speaker 2: I say leftist, I just meant, you know, to be honest,

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Speaker 2: Until very recently, almost everybody in Hollywood was an outspoken leftist. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and so lots of people saying it's happening. We said

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Speaker 2: authoritarianism was coming. This is the first real sign of that,

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Speaker 2: is that where this conversation is now, is it about

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Speaker 2: the death of free speech, which is, let's be clear,

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Speaker 2: something that the right side of politics, as in the

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Speaker 2: megaside of politics, free speech was the thing that supposedly

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Speaker 2: radicalized and evangelized the Elon Musks of the world, the

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Speaker 2: Joe Rogan's of the world, the Mark Zuckerberg's of the world.

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Speaker 2: Charlie Kirk himself as a free speech advocate, of course,

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Speaker 2: And they're like, but they're saying that it was the

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Speaker 2: left that we're trying to silence debate and that's what

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Speaker 2: pushed them to the Trump side. Is this the first

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Speaker 2: step in authoritarianism?

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Speaker 4: To be clear, Trump campaigned on free speech. He talked

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Speaker 4: in his inaugural address earlier this year. He said, after

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Speaker 4: years and years of illegal and unconstitutional federal efforts to

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Speaker 4: restrict free expression, I will sign an executive order to

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Speaker 4: immediately stop all government censorship and bring back free speech

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Speaker 4: to America. There his words months ago. And so I

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Speaker 4: think everyone is going, hang on, this is absolute hypocrisy.

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Speaker 4: It is a double standard. There are fractures within the

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Speaker 4: party that are going this is what we fought for.

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Speaker 4: As you say, Holly, it is something that has been

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Speaker 4: pinned on the left in terms of cancel culture and

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Speaker 4: workism and you know, political correctness gone mad. But the

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Speaker 4: thing about that, and I would argue, we've talked about

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Speaker 4: cancel culture on this show. There are definitely instances where

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Speaker 4: there's been overreach, but that's often self censorship, a board

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Speaker 4: maybe trying to be really really careful and not offend people.

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Speaker 4: The difference here is that it's hard power, not soft power.

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Speaker 4: That's why I think it feels so scary.

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Speaker 5: When I spoke to John Barron about this and the Quickie,

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Speaker 5: he said, the big difference is these directives are coming

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Speaker 5: from the president down, which has not been the case.

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Speaker 5: It's normally like a public opinion or is a business

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Speaker 5: level decision, but this is very much coming from the

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Speaker 5: White House itself.

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Speaker 4: Often it's within the interests of like, for example, they

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Speaker 4: don't want to lose advertisers. This happens in Australia. Someone

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Speaker 4: says something offensive, they don't want to lose advertisers. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: that's a soft power that it can be troubling. But

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Speaker 4: this is a directive coming from within the White House.

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Speaker 4: And that's why it feels like communist China. Like it

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Speaker 4: feels as though you're living under a government who gets

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Speaker 4: to decide what you can and cannot say. And the

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Speaker 4: profound paradox in all of this is, of course they're going,

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Speaker 4: even at the memorial, look at this bastion of free speech.

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Speaker 4: You will look his opponents in the eye and speak

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Speaker 4: to them. And now you're going, you can't disagree with

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Speaker 4: what Kirk said, the man who got killed for saying

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Speaker 4: things that like, that's where it leads. Suppression of free

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Speaker 4: speech leads to something like a bullet because you say,

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Speaker 4: I do not want that person to speak anymore. I

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Speaker 4: do not think that person deserves a platform. It is

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Speaker 4: where you go in terms of an authoritarian regime. This

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Speaker 4: has played out throughout history, and I think that's why

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Speaker 4: people My first reaction upon seeing this story was, this

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Speaker 4: is really scary shit.

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Speaker 2: It is scary shit. I think it comes from a

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Speaker 2: basic place because, as has been widely what Jimmy Kimmel

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Speaker 2: said there was not that shocking, right. And also on

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Speaker 2: the day of Charlie Kirk's assassination, Jimmy Kimmel, like most

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Speaker 2: mainstream democratic figures, said exactly what they should have said,

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Speaker 2: which is, my heart goes out to his family. This

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Speaker 2: is inexcusable. Like he did all of those things right,

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Speaker 2: What this is actually about is that President Trump hates

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Speaker 2: to be mocked. Let's face it, most of us do, right.

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Speaker 2: But from all the way back before he was seriously

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Speaker 2: standing for politics, the Jimmy Kimmels of the world, in

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Speaker 2: Trump's view, people that he would broadly call the Hollywood elite,

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Speaker 2: the leftist Hollywood elite, have taunted him, not taken him seriously,

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Speaker 2: taken the piss out of him. It goes all the

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Speaker 2: way back to President Obama at the White House correspondence

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Speaker 2: dinner in twenty eleven, who stood up and roasted him,

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Speaker 2: and he was in the room at the time. Trump

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Speaker 2: he was a guest of Newsweek, and Seth Meyers stood

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Speaker 2: up and said, Donald Trump says he's going to run

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Speaker 2: for a president as a Republican, which is surprising since

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Speaker 2: I just assumed he was running as a joke, and

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Speaker 2: everybody just took the piss out of him. And many

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Speaker 2: Trump insiders say that was the moment when Trump went,

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Speaker 2: I'm coming for you lot, and look what's happened. He did,

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Speaker 2: and he won, and he didn't need any of these

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Speaker 2: guys who have been, let's be honest, trashing him for decades.

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Speaker 2: He didn't need any of them to get him to power.

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Speaker 2: He doesn't really need their approval, but he hates their

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Speaker 2: derision and he's been waiting for this. As Murphy said,

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Speaker 2: Colbert is going off air. He said that Jimmy Kimmel

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Speaker 2: was next. Now he says that Falon's next, seth Myers

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Speaker 2: is next. All these guys are going to go. It's

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Speaker 2: interesting because their power is reduced in lots of ways

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Speaker 2: since nobody watches network TV anymore. But they will all go,

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Speaker 2: and as they lose their jobs from their networks, they

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Speaker 2: will all go to YouTube, to podcast, to all the

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Speaker 2: different tech platforms, and they will speak there and whether

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Speaker 2: or not they really have clout anymore. I think it's

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Speaker 2: that classic thing in a way that what may lead

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Speaker 2: to this authoritarianism is like a man's bruised ego.

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Speaker 8: You know.

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Speaker 5: There's also some reports going around that people like Colbert

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Speaker 5: and a bunch of others in the background are starting a.

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Speaker 3: Rogue news network, which will.

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Speaker 5: I'm guessing be Internet based in some way, shape or form.

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Speaker 2: Which is what lots of the right guys have done.

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Speaker 2: It's what Toker Carlson's done and not. You know, like

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Speaker 2: this is where all these people are talking now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly right.

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Speaker 5: So it looks like it might create a whole new

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Speaker 5: network of sort of left wing ideology there. But just

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Speaker 5: before we stop talking about this, like do we need

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Speaker 5: to check ourselves and just look at this from the

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Speaker 5: other perspective for a minute.

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Speaker 4: I've been thinking about this because I don't think that

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Speaker 4: free speech is unlimited.

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Speaker 3: It never has been.

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Speaker 4: I think that there are things that Jimmy Kimmel could

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Speaker 4: have got up and said that are so offensive that

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Speaker 4: actually maybe would have warranted a little bit of censorship.

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Speaker 4: So if he had come up and incited violence, excused violence,

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Speaker 4: said I'm glad he died, he had it coming, who's next?

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Speaker 1: Yep.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, I think that there would be a really important

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Speaker 4: national conversation because there is a standard of speech that exists.

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Speaker 4: But he didn't say any of those things. And my

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Speaker 4: first response to this story was, oh, well, I'm going

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Speaker 4: to look really closely at what Jimmy Kimmel said, because

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Speaker 4: some left wing commentators have feared into that, and if

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Speaker 4: that were on the other side, we would be just

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Speaker 4: as horrified. But to me, it's the banality of what

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Speaker 4: he said. His crime was being imprecise, Like what he

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Speaker 4: said was actually factually wrong. It was early days. He

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Speaker 4: didn't know it was wrong yet, and so that's something

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Speaker 4: that you know. Inaccuracy, you can definitely charge him with that,

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Speaker 4: But inaccuracy doesn't get anyone else pulled off the air.

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Speaker 4: And then some people said, well, the ratings were shit,

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Speaker 4: so they were just looking for an excuse. That's okay,

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Speaker 4: but you don't pull people off immediately for bad ratings.

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Speaker 1: You wind him up.

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Speaker 2: You're right, Murphy in lots of ways. And I think

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Speaker 2: that one of the things about this is is that

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Speaker 2: when I looked at all the responses from the other

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Speaker 2: late night guys, and they were all very clever, because

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Speaker 2: these are very clever people, and they've got huge staffs

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Speaker 2: of writing people who are also very clever people, and

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Speaker 2: they are exactly as I said before, the kind of

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Speaker 2: people that Trump would dismiss as Hollywood at least, and

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Speaker 2: they're thinking of the cleverest, funniest ways to go viral

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Speaker 2: by mocking the president. I would suggest that one of

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Speaker 2: the things we learned last year is that you can

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Speaker 2: have every famous, powerful Hollywood person on your side, from

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Speaker 2: Taylor Swift to Bad Bunny to every single Hollywood starter.

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Speaker 2: George Clooney and you're still not going to win the

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Speaker 2: election because nobody likes being mocked and dismissed and taking

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Speaker 2: the piss out of And that goes for Donald Trump,

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Speaker 2: but it also goes for Donald Trump's supporters.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it does.

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Speaker 4: But I would say that parody and comedy and sending

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Speaker 4: things up. In the world of comedy, the rules are

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Speaker 4: that kind of nothing is untouchable, and so of course

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Speaker 4: these shows were going to touch it in the same way,

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Speaker 4: whether you were right or left, you were going.

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Speaker 1: To touch it.

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Speaker 5: South Park they didn't have an episode go live last week,

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Speaker 5: and they put it down to they left it too

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Speaker 5: late and didn't get it finished.

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Speaker 4: Thirty years and they always managed to get it finished.

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Speaker 2: I think that was a smart move on their part

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Speaker 2: because of they've been all over the headlines lately. For

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Speaker 2: I was just saying how Donald Trump doesn't like to

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Speaker 2: be mocked. They have been mocking him on an extreme

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Speaker 2: scandal more than anyone from the micro penis down exactly,

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Speaker 2: So those guys would have to be worried. And I

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Speaker 2: think if they made a call to not go to

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Speaker 2: air the week of Charlie Kirk's murder because they knew

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Speaker 2: what they had was inflammatory. I would say that was

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Speaker 2: probably a smart choice. I think that's exactly what happened.

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Speaker 2: Not to defend censorship in any way. In a moment,

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Speaker 2: do you cry on your birthday? So do we and

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Speaker 2: now we know why. Jesse Claire, do you cry on

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Speaker 2: your birthdays?

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Speaker 1: Yes?

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Speaker 2: Okay, I need to know more details about both these things.

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Speaker 2: At what point on your birthday do you normally cry?

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Speaker 2: Jesse Stevens normally more than once.

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Speaker 4: But I've identified yeah, And I've identified the moment where

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Speaker 4: I cry, and it's when I am doing something mundane.

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Speaker 4: So I find myself mopping the floor, scraping a dish,

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Speaker 4: putting on the dishwasher, and I think it's my fucking

435
00:22:06,874 --> 00:22:10,754
Speaker 4: bird and why am I doing this task? And I

436
00:22:10,834 --> 00:22:13,074
Speaker 4: also get that feeling on Christmas.

437
00:22:13,354 --> 00:22:16,714
Speaker 2: So basically, a birthday should be a day off from

438
00:22:16,914 --> 00:22:17,914
Speaker 2: boring activities.

439
00:22:17,954 --> 00:22:21,674
Speaker 3: It should free path only be extraordinary.

440
00:22:21,074 --> 00:22:23,754
Speaker 2: Murphy, do you like Do you like birthdays or not

441
00:22:23,834 --> 00:22:24,474
Speaker 2: like birthdays?

442
00:22:24,514 --> 00:22:24,634
Speaker 7: Oh?

443
00:22:24,674 --> 00:22:27,394
Speaker 5: I love my birthday. I also share my birthday with

444
00:22:27,514 --> 00:22:28,874
Speaker 5: the spookiest.

445
00:22:28,314 --> 00:22:30,834
Speaker 1: Holiday of the year. Oh, so Halloween.

446
00:22:31,194 --> 00:22:33,714
Speaker 5: I get to go trick or treating with my child,

447
00:22:33,794 --> 00:22:35,874
Speaker 5: which has not always been my favorite thing to do.

448
00:22:36,034 --> 00:22:38,434
Speaker 1: But now I've kind of come around to it, but

449
00:22:38,834 --> 00:22:40,954
Speaker 1: I do not cry on my birthday.

450
00:22:41,154 --> 00:22:43,313
Speaker 5: I've made it very clear to my family that I

451
00:22:43,314 --> 00:22:45,554
Speaker 5: will not be doing any mondane work on that day,

452
00:22:45,554 --> 00:22:47,794
Speaker 5: and that is purely up to them to do all

453
00:22:47,834 --> 00:22:50,314
Speaker 5: of that shit and also wait on me hand and foot.

454
00:22:50,354 --> 00:22:53,313
Speaker 5: My husband has been well trained to provide cups of

455
00:22:53,354 --> 00:22:55,714
Speaker 5: teas in bed if it is a weekend. He's been

456
00:22:55,834 --> 00:22:57,994
Speaker 5: very well trained to cook me dinner or take me somewhere.

457
00:22:58,314 --> 00:23:00,994
Speaker 5: This has been well established in my household. Plus, I

458
00:23:01,034 --> 00:23:04,234
Speaker 5: am the youngest child in my family by a long way,

459
00:23:04,394 --> 00:23:06,234
Speaker 5: so like there's a big gap between my brother and

460
00:23:06,234 --> 00:23:07,274
Speaker 5: sister and I.

461
00:23:07,274 --> 00:23:10,354
Speaker 1: I have been spoy yelled like.

462
00:23:10,354 --> 00:23:13,194
Speaker 2: Okay, So Murphy is the queen of the birthday boundaries.

463
00:23:13,234 --> 00:23:15,834
Speaker 2: That's why I've discovered, now, how you, Holly, I have

464
00:23:15,954 --> 00:23:17,714
Speaker 2: been known to cry on my birthday. But the reason

465
00:23:17,714 --> 00:23:19,714
Speaker 2: I'm asking you this is because we ran a piece

466
00:23:19,714 --> 00:23:22,274
Speaker 2: on Mamma Mia this week which a lot of women

467
00:23:22,314 --> 00:23:24,994
Speaker 2: have related to, right, which was about why women cry

468
00:23:25,034 --> 00:23:27,954
Speaker 2: on the birthday because apparently it's very common, very common,

469
00:23:28,274 --> 00:23:30,274
Speaker 2: and there are a number of reasons. But back day

470
00:23:30,274 --> 00:23:32,874
Speaker 2: in this piece, she wrote, for example, there was somebody

471
00:23:32,914 --> 00:23:34,754
Speaker 2: who she spoke to who said the biggest fight she's

472
00:23:34,794 --> 00:23:37,114
Speaker 2: ever had with her partner was over his failure to

473
00:23:37,114 --> 00:23:40,754
Speaker 2: post a public display of birthday love on Instagram, even

474
00:23:40,794 --> 00:23:42,914
Speaker 2: though the last time he'd posted was in two thousand

475
00:23:42,954 --> 00:23:47,513
Speaker 2: and sixty. So very reasonable things here. Some people said,

476
00:23:47,554 --> 00:23:49,594
Speaker 2: maybe it's just an echo of the day that you

477
00:23:49,674 --> 00:23:52,714
Speaker 2: first entered the world, scrunched faced and crying and trying

478
00:23:52,754 --> 00:23:54,034
Speaker 2: to figure out all this shit.

479
00:23:54,434 --> 00:23:57,154
Speaker 4: It does feel overwhelming in the same way being born.

480
00:23:57,274 --> 00:24:00,593
Speaker 2: Mike, yes, exactly, and counselor Julie Sweet said, the reason

481
00:24:00,634 --> 00:24:04,034
Speaker 2: that a lot of women cry is because disappointment and

482
00:24:04,074 --> 00:24:07,714
Speaker 2: conflicting emotions often present when the pressure to appear happy

483
00:24:08,434 --> 00:24:11,354
Speaker 2: doesn't match in a feeling. So, no matter what's going

484
00:24:11,354 --> 00:24:13,834
Speaker 2: on in your life, maybe your relationship is falling apart,

485
00:24:13,914 --> 00:24:16,434
Speaker 2: maybe you're sick, maybe your kid's being a shit, maybe

486
00:24:16,474 --> 00:24:19,754
Speaker 2: your boss is being a shit, whatever's happening on your birthday,

487
00:24:19,794 --> 00:24:22,754
Speaker 2: it's still happening, but you have to kind of pretend

488
00:24:22,754 --> 00:24:25,434
Speaker 2: that it isn't and that can be overwhelming. So she said,

489
00:24:25,674 --> 00:24:28,754
Speaker 2: Julie Sweet, that this creates a double whammy of overwhelm

490
00:24:28,794 --> 00:24:31,674
Speaker 2: and internalized blame, and we end up wondering why we're

491
00:24:31,714 --> 00:24:35,033
Speaker 2: not happier, all the while berating ourselves for not feeling

492
00:24:35,034 --> 00:24:35,834
Speaker 2: grateful enough.

493
00:24:36,434 --> 00:24:37,434
Speaker 1: I know what that's like.

494
00:24:37,874 --> 00:24:42,954
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I wonder too if it's my expectations are

495
00:24:43,194 --> 00:24:47,914
Speaker 4: unsaid because they are unacknowledged within myself, Like I couldn't

496
00:24:47,954 --> 00:24:50,594
Speaker 4: if I tried to journal what I wanted my birthday

497
00:24:50,634 --> 00:24:53,033
Speaker 4: to look like. I don't necessarily have a vision or

498
00:24:53,114 --> 00:24:58,033
Speaker 4: the words, but some part of me clearly has a

499
00:24:58,114 --> 00:25:01,273
Speaker 4: standard for the day that is never realized.

500
00:25:01,354 --> 00:25:04,154
Speaker 2: Well, it's complicate, more complicated for you because you share

501
00:25:04,154 --> 00:25:07,434
Speaker 2: your birthday. You're a twin right, so through your life,

502
00:25:07,794 --> 00:25:10,234
Speaker 2: was it important for your family to make a fuss

503
00:25:10,234 --> 00:25:12,434
Speaker 2: of Jesse, make a fuss of Claire? And we also

504
00:25:12,514 --> 00:25:15,514
Speaker 2: have the added thing you and I have being Christmas babies. Yep,

505
00:25:15,834 --> 00:25:17,714
Speaker 2: so one of the things you'll got ripped.

506
00:25:17,794 --> 00:25:18,194
Speaker 4: Oh we do.

507
00:25:18,714 --> 00:25:20,834
Speaker 2: One of the things that I often used to happen,

508
00:25:20,954 --> 00:25:22,634
Speaker 2: not anymore, but I used to struggle with on my

509
00:25:22,634 --> 00:25:25,114
Speaker 2: birthday when I was younger, is I was like, nobody

510
00:25:25,234 --> 00:25:28,394
Speaker 2: cares because everybody's focused on Christmas and I'm only going

511
00:25:28,434 --> 00:25:31,474
Speaker 2: to get joint presents and nobody wants to celebrate d

512
00:25:31,594 --> 00:25:33,754
Speaker 2: And there would be that kind of sulky la laugh

513
00:25:33,794 --> 00:25:34,513
Speaker 2: thing about.

514
00:25:34,274 --> 00:25:36,314
Speaker 4: It, which is all true. But I think that whether

515
00:25:36,354 --> 00:25:38,314
Speaker 4: we want to admit it or not, we do build

516
00:25:38,354 --> 00:25:40,434
Speaker 4: it up. As like even when we look at a

517
00:25:40,474 --> 00:25:42,034
Speaker 4: calendar year, right, if you were going to put the

518
00:25:42,074 --> 00:25:44,794
Speaker 4: first things in, you'd go, well, that's Christmas and that's

519
00:25:44,834 --> 00:25:47,513
Speaker 4: my birthday. Like it is, it exists in my head

520
00:25:47,914 --> 00:25:52,514
Speaker 4: all year round. The trick I have started to adopt

521
00:25:52,634 --> 00:25:55,874
Speaker 4: is I must have a plan. And I resisted that

522
00:25:55,914 --> 00:25:59,194
Speaker 4: for a while because I thought that plans inevitably bring

523
00:25:59,234 --> 00:26:01,194
Speaker 4: with them expectations and I don't want to be disappointed.

524
00:26:01,194 --> 00:26:03,354
Speaker 5: And was there an expectation that someone else make those

525
00:26:03,394 --> 00:26:07,273
Speaker 5: plans because it's your birthday? Maybe maybe I expect to

526
00:26:07,314 --> 00:26:10,354
Speaker 5: wake up and just be take him through a day

527
00:26:10,394 --> 00:26:12,313
Speaker 5: of joy. And that's never happened.

528
00:26:12,314 --> 00:26:14,954
Speaker 4: Like my mum was always just pissed off because it

529
00:26:14,994 --> 00:26:15,954
Speaker 4: was nearly Christmas.

530
00:26:15,994 --> 00:26:18,874
Speaker 5: Like, so your mom popped out like twins after twins,

531
00:26:18,914 --> 00:26:19,914
Speaker 5: like she had a lot on her plate.

532
00:26:20,114 --> 00:26:22,994
Speaker 4: Yeah, like she did not care and no, she didn't

533
00:26:23,034 --> 00:26:24,954
Speaker 4: care about making it special for each of us.

534
00:26:24,994 --> 00:26:25,714
Speaker 3: She was tired.

535
00:26:26,434 --> 00:26:31,354
Speaker 4: So I now A'm like, it's the existing in those

536
00:26:31,434 --> 00:26:34,073
Speaker 4: moments of in between that I really really don't like.

537
00:26:34,114 --> 00:26:38,154
Speaker 4: And I've found that with Christmas too, that I wake up,

538
00:26:38,554 --> 00:26:40,514
Speaker 4: I have this excitement that I kind of didn't even

539
00:26:40,554 --> 00:26:41,154
Speaker 4: expect to have.

540
00:26:41,234 --> 00:26:42,114
Speaker 3: I still have it.

541
00:26:42,474 --> 00:26:44,714
Speaker 4: And you have a plan, and sometimes you'll go and

542
00:26:44,754 --> 00:26:46,553
Speaker 4: do the plan, but then I don't like when the

543
00:26:46,554 --> 00:26:48,314
Speaker 4: plan's done, I'm just at home, and at six o'clock

544
00:26:48,354 --> 00:26:50,914
Speaker 4: on Christmas night, I feel sick because I'm just like,

545
00:26:51,674 --> 00:26:54,074
Speaker 4: this is just like any other night. What am I

546
00:26:54,114 --> 00:26:56,714
Speaker 4: meant to have leftovers? This is Christmas like?

547
00:26:56,754 --> 00:26:58,553
Speaker 1: And I'm horrified by that.

548
00:26:59,074 --> 00:27:00,914
Speaker 2: This is the thing, said the experts say. And I'm

549
00:27:00,914 --> 00:27:02,994
Speaker 2: going to get to your excellent birthday boundaries in a minute,

550
00:27:02,994 --> 00:27:05,754
Speaker 2: Claire Murphy, because you have got the right idea, you'll

551
00:27:05,754 --> 00:27:09,554
Speaker 2: be surprised to hear the experts say that managing expectations

552
00:27:09,674 --> 00:27:12,674
Speaker 2: is the absolute key to this right, but also for

553
00:27:12,754 --> 00:27:15,434
Speaker 2: the people around you to understand what's required of them.

554
00:27:15,714 --> 00:27:15,833
Speaker 4: Now.

555
00:27:15,834 --> 00:27:19,034
Speaker 2: There was a brilliant piece online about a man who's

556
00:27:19,074 --> 00:27:22,194
Speaker 2: trying to opt out of his wife's unrealistic birthday expectations.

557
00:27:22,714 --> 00:27:24,714
Speaker 2: He said, they've been married for years, and they've got kids,

558
00:27:25,154 --> 00:27:27,994
Speaker 2: and she really wants a big, big, big fuss on

559
00:27:28,034 --> 00:27:30,834
Speaker 2: the birthday, and he's worked out over the years that

560
00:27:30,914 --> 00:27:32,754
Speaker 2: no matter what he does, it isn't enough. So one

561
00:27:32,834 --> 00:27:35,834
Speaker 2: year he'd planned her she wanted to go skydiving, she

562
00:27:35,834 --> 00:27:37,874
Speaker 2: wanted a picnic in a hot air balloon, whatever, and

563
00:27:37,874 --> 00:27:40,474
Speaker 2: he did it all, and she still ended up in

564
00:27:40,474 --> 00:27:41,234
Speaker 2: tears at the end.

565
00:27:41,114 --> 00:27:42,793
Speaker 1: Of her Oh my god.

566
00:27:43,234 --> 00:27:45,834
Speaker 2: Okay. And so he had written online and he'd said,

567
00:27:45,954 --> 00:27:48,594
Speaker 2: I've decided to set a boundary that I'm just out

568
00:27:48,634 --> 00:27:50,674
Speaker 2: of the birthday business because I can't win, and we

569
00:27:50,754 --> 00:27:53,114
Speaker 2: just have a big fight every year. I told her calmly,

570
00:27:53,194 --> 00:27:55,754
Speaker 2: and she responded with shrug shoulders that she knew I'd

571
00:27:55,794 --> 00:27:57,194
Speaker 2: changed my mind. He told her that he's not going

572
00:27:57,274 --> 00:27:59,194
Speaker 2: to plan anything. He's not going to do anything right.

573
00:27:59,794 --> 00:28:01,914
Speaker 2: Her birthday is now two months away, he writes, and

574
00:28:01,954 --> 00:28:04,954
Speaker 2: she's been coy, silly, persistent in hints that she's excited

575
00:28:04,994 --> 00:28:07,954
Speaker 2: to see what I've got planned. And he's said, I'm

576
00:28:07,994 --> 00:28:10,314
Speaker 2: planning a nice dinner at home with our kids and

577
00:28:10,354 --> 00:28:13,834
Speaker 2: anything else you need to plan yourself. His wife now

578
00:28:13,834 --> 00:28:20,074
Speaker 2: thinks that this is a strategy to hide reverse psychology. Really, so, Murphy,

579
00:28:20,674 --> 00:28:23,434
Speaker 2: what's going to happen to this poor man? And are

580
00:28:23,474 --> 00:28:26,954
Speaker 2: we sometimes unrealistic in our birthday boundary demands.

581
00:28:27,234 --> 00:28:29,994
Speaker 5: Yeah we are, and we're unrealistic about a lot of

582
00:28:29,994 --> 00:28:33,194
Speaker 5: these things. We're unrealistic about what marriage looks, like, we're

583
00:28:33,274 --> 00:28:37,073
Speaker 5: unrealistic about our relationship with our boss. Like we're unrealistic

584
00:28:37,074 --> 00:28:39,194
Speaker 5: about so many things. And like that could be for

585
00:28:39,274 --> 00:28:41,634
Speaker 5: many reasons. Maybe your mum and dad had the most

586
00:28:41,674 --> 00:28:44,034
Speaker 5: wonderful relationship in the world, and Dad's spoiled mum and

587
00:28:44,074 --> 00:28:46,794
Speaker 5: now you are ruined for every other man that comes after,

588
00:28:47,354 --> 00:28:50,834
Speaker 5: or like maybe it's because you've watched too many rom coms.

589
00:28:50,874 --> 00:28:53,674
Speaker 5: I don't know whatever it came from. But like, it's

590
00:28:53,754 --> 00:28:56,714
Speaker 5: not that I have low expectations. It's just that I

591
00:28:56,834 --> 00:29:01,074
Speaker 5: don't expect everyone to I don't know, like stop their

592
00:29:01,234 --> 00:29:04,154
Speaker 5: entire lives for one day, Like I don't know. I

593
00:29:04,234 --> 00:29:07,074
Speaker 5: just I want people to acknowledge that is my birthday,

594
00:29:07,354 --> 00:29:08,154
Speaker 5: by me gifts.

595
00:29:08,634 --> 00:29:09,154
Speaker 1: I love.

596
00:29:09,234 --> 00:29:12,354
Speaker 5: My kid creates the most ridiculous artwork for my birthday

597
00:29:12,354 --> 00:29:12,874
Speaker 5: and I love that.

598
00:29:13,474 --> 00:29:15,514
Speaker 1: So, like, there's lots of things that I do expect.

599
00:29:15,554 --> 00:29:17,554
Speaker 5: But if my husband was to get up and go,

600
00:29:18,274 --> 00:29:21,114
Speaker 5: I have got an emergency at work. I can't do

601
00:29:21,194 --> 00:29:22,274
Speaker 5: your birthday thing today?

602
00:29:22,514 --> 00:29:23,074
Speaker 1: Is that Okay.

603
00:29:23,114 --> 00:29:25,234
Speaker 5: I'd be like, yeah, cool, get on with my day,

604
00:29:25,314 --> 00:29:27,394
Speaker 5: Like I'm not so let down by it.

605
00:29:27,514 --> 00:29:29,234
Speaker 2: At the end of it all, Jesse, you're going to

606
00:29:29,274 --> 00:29:32,274
Speaker 2: hate one of the suggestions that the expert had, because

607
00:29:32,314 --> 00:29:34,554
Speaker 2: we've talked about this on the show before. Instead of

608
00:29:34,594 --> 00:29:37,074
Speaker 2: making it your birthday day, make it a birthday week

609
00:29:37,154 --> 00:29:40,034
Speaker 2: because you spread your expectations out across the week.

610
00:29:40,194 --> 00:29:41,234
Speaker 3: Oh, I don't think so.

611
00:29:41,554 --> 00:29:43,634
Speaker 2: Do you think that is why people have started doing

612
00:29:43,714 --> 00:29:44,594
Speaker 2: birthday weeks.

613
00:29:44,914 --> 00:29:45,834
Speaker 3: That's a good point.

614
00:29:45,914 --> 00:29:48,994
Speaker 4: But then it's like, it's a Monday morning, and I'm

615
00:29:49,034 --> 00:29:51,754
Speaker 4: indignant because the Monday mornings aren't meant to happen during

616
00:29:51,754 --> 00:29:54,634
Speaker 4: my birthday week. Like I have the pleasure of never

617
00:29:55,594 --> 00:29:59,074
Speaker 4: nearly never having to work on my birthday because.

618
00:29:59,074 --> 00:30:02,914
Speaker 2: It's very often sometimes, but it's very often almost holidays,

619
00:30:02,954 --> 00:30:03,394
Speaker 2: isn't it.

620
00:30:03,434 --> 00:30:05,474
Speaker 3: Yeah, which maybe puts more pressure on it.

621
00:30:06,034 --> 00:30:09,514
Speaker 4: Like it was always also school holidays, so it was

622
00:30:09,634 --> 00:30:14,474
Speaker 4: like the sitting around waiting for a fuss to be

623
00:30:14,594 --> 00:30:18,794
Speaker 4: made was just always so so unmeat. It was Luca's

624
00:30:18,834 --> 00:30:22,474
Speaker 4: birthday over the weekend, and he was just like not

625
00:30:22,514 --> 00:30:24,154
Speaker 4: interested in doing and I kept trying to push something

626
00:30:24,194 --> 00:30:26,914
Speaker 4: because I was like, you'll be disappointed. You'll be disappointed,

627
00:30:27,154 --> 00:30:27,834
Speaker 4: and we sat.

628
00:30:27,674 --> 00:30:29,834
Speaker 1: There realistically, you'll be disappointed.

629
00:30:30,034 --> 00:30:31,714
Speaker 3: Yeah, well he was fine.

630
00:30:31,714 --> 00:30:33,874
Speaker 4: On Saturday night we watched TVA and a Mexican. I

631
00:30:33,914 --> 00:30:35,554
Speaker 4: was like, this is the saddest thing ever, and he

632
00:30:35,754 --> 00:30:38,314
Speaker 4: was absolutely found it very joyful.

633
00:30:38,354 --> 00:30:40,474
Speaker 2: You need to have your rules, so as you've got Murphy,

634
00:30:40,514 --> 00:30:42,994
Speaker 2: You're like, I expect these things to happen. I expect

635
00:30:42,994 --> 00:30:44,674
Speaker 2: the people who live in my house to do these things.

636
00:30:44,674 --> 00:30:46,794
Speaker 2: They're not extravagant things, but they're things that matter. And

637
00:30:46,874 --> 00:30:48,674
Speaker 2: I'm the same. I'm like, whoever's birthday is in our

638
00:30:48,674 --> 00:30:51,754
Speaker 2: house gets breakfast in bed. Whatever they want for their birthday, Yeah, breakfast.

639
00:30:52,154 --> 00:30:53,594
Speaker 2: So if it's one of the kids' birthdays and they

640
00:30:53,634 --> 00:30:56,074
Speaker 2: want chocolate for breakfast on their birthday, they can have it, fabulo.

641
00:30:56,114 --> 00:30:58,634
Speaker 2: That's no problem. I expect to be able to be

642
00:30:58,754 --> 00:31:01,274
Speaker 2: eating what I want for dinner that night, whether it's

643
00:31:01,274 --> 00:31:04,554
Speaker 2: out or in, and I expect, as previously discussed, to

644
00:31:04,674 --> 00:31:07,394
Speaker 2: not have to empty the dishwasher. Those are the can

645
00:31:07,434 --> 00:31:07,954
Speaker 2: I ask.

646
00:31:07,794 --> 00:31:08,834
Speaker 3: A question quickly?

647
00:31:09,834 --> 00:31:13,034
Speaker 4: I keep saying to people around me, it's the big

648
00:31:13,074 --> 00:31:15,194
Speaker 4: thirty five this year. I want to do something special

649
00:31:15,234 --> 00:31:15,954
Speaker 4: for my thirty fifth.

650
00:31:16,034 --> 00:31:18,634
Speaker 1: I'm sorry the what Okay, No, this is good.

651
00:31:18,834 --> 00:31:21,554
Speaker 4: People have started to react, like Uclaire, where they're like,

652
00:31:21,954 --> 00:31:24,514
Speaker 4: thirty five ain't a big birthday and I'm like, guys,

653
00:31:24,674 --> 00:31:26,234
Speaker 4: I think we should go away for my birthday and

654
00:31:26,234 --> 00:31:27,674
Speaker 4: they're like, thirty five isn't a mile.

655
00:31:27,754 --> 00:31:28,594
Speaker 1: So no it's not.

656
00:31:28,674 --> 00:31:30,594
Speaker 5: You get eighteen, you get twenty one, and then it's

657
00:31:30,634 --> 00:31:31,754
Speaker 5: ten year increments from that.

658
00:31:31,834 --> 00:31:35,234
Speaker 2: Note, you're on trend. My brother so he had he

659
00:31:35,314 --> 00:31:38,754
Speaker 2: was fifty five this year. Yes, we're ancient, and he

660
00:31:38,954 --> 00:31:41,514
Speaker 2: had a massive party. He didn't have a massive party

661
00:31:41,514 --> 00:31:43,914
Speaker 2: even for his fiftieth, but he had a massive party.

662
00:31:44,074 --> 00:31:48,554
Speaker 2: Apparently in Europe, the five years there we go europaid

663
00:31:48,714 --> 00:31:52,234
Speaker 2: turn is becoming more and more popular as the one

664
00:31:52,314 --> 00:31:55,674
Speaker 2: because the Zeros are so confronting zero.

665
00:31:55,714 --> 00:31:58,794
Speaker 1: It's like I confront you that halfway through.

666
00:31:58,914 --> 00:31:59,994
Speaker 2: So you are on trend.

667
00:32:00,074 --> 00:32:02,474
Speaker 4: Jesse Stevens, Okay, see I've got to do something big

668
00:32:02,474 --> 00:32:03,914
Speaker 4: for my master birth Can I tell you what I'm

669
00:32:03,914 --> 00:32:06,874
Speaker 4: doing for my birthday this year? I'm turning forty seven,

670
00:32:06,954 --> 00:32:09,834
Speaker 4: so it's not at anything birthday, but my best friend

671
00:32:09,834 --> 00:32:11,234
Speaker 4: and I are going up to the Gold Coast and

672
00:32:11,234 --> 00:32:14,594
Speaker 4: we're recreating our childhood experiences by going to all the

673
00:32:14,634 --> 00:32:17,594
Speaker 4: worlds because we used to go to the Lord Kids.

674
00:32:17,794 --> 00:32:19,274
Speaker 2: That's so fine.

675
00:32:19,714 --> 00:32:21,394
Speaker 5: And the beauty of working at mamamir As you get

676
00:32:21,394 --> 00:32:23,074
Speaker 5: your birthday day off. I know that sucks for you

677
00:32:23,114 --> 00:32:27,074
Speaker 5: guys because often a public call it. Anyway, you get

678
00:32:27,074 --> 00:32:28,634
Speaker 5: your birthday day off and then you get to go

679
00:32:28,674 --> 00:32:30,714
Speaker 5: and have fun, which is really cool. So yeah, I'm

680
00:32:30,714 --> 00:32:33,154
Speaker 5: going to like dream World and wet and wild and stuff.

681
00:32:33,314 --> 00:32:34,674
Speaker 5: Oh that's so fun.

682
00:32:34,994 --> 00:32:37,034
Speaker 2: Do you think that man's marriage is going to survive?

683
00:32:37,114 --> 00:32:40,874
Speaker 2: The one who's often birthdays and his wife thinks he's planning.

684
00:32:41,434 --> 00:32:43,714
Speaker 1: That's going to be the biggest fight of their entire lives.

685
00:32:43,914 --> 00:32:46,394
Speaker 4: The advice was you need to write her a letter

686
00:32:46,394 --> 00:32:47,954
Speaker 4: to warn her, And I'm like, no, she'll just think

687
00:32:47,994 --> 00:32:50,514
Speaker 4: this is part of the elaborate prank. Like she's just

688
00:32:50,554 --> 00:32:53,154
Speaker 4: going to go, Wow, you've really lowered my expectations.

689
00:32:53,194 --> 00:32:55,474
Speaker 1: It's not gonna end well. It's not going to end well.

690
00:32:56,434 --> 00:32:59,914
Speaker 4: After the break a man named ned, some secret photographs

691
00:32:59,914 --> 00:33:03,074
Speaker 4: sent to his wife and the explosion of an internet career.

692
00:33:03,594 --> 00:33:06,314
Speaker 4: You either know nothing about this story or every little detail,

693
00:33:06,394 --> 00:33:07,914
Speaker 4: and I'm here to explain.

694
00:33:08,554 --> 00:33:12,314
Speaker 2: One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday

695
00:33:12,354 --> 00:33:16,394
Speaker 2: and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link

696
00:33:16,434 --> 00:33:18,194
Speaker 2: at the show notes to get us in your ears

697
00:33:18,434 --> 00:33:21,194
Speaker 2: five days a week. And a huge thank you to

698
00:33:21,354 --> 00:33:23,354
Speaker 2: all our current subscribers.

699
00:33:28,954 --> 00:33:31,034
Speaker 5: There was a story that went viral over the weekend

700
00:33:31,194 --> 00:33:33,114
Speaker 5: back in my hometown of Adelaide. I don't know if

701
00:33:33,114 --> 00:33:36,074
Speaker 5: you caught this, but a lady went to donate some

702
00:33:36,154 --> 00:33:39,714
Speaker 5: goods to her local second hand store and did something

703
00:33:39,754 --> 00:33:41,274
Speaker 5: that if you've ever given.

704
00:33:41,034 --> 00:33:43,674
Speaker 1: Birth to a child, we are all at risk of doing.

705
00:33:44,794 --> 00:33:47,594
Speaker 1: She went, dropped off the goods, all is well and good,

706
00:33:47,594 --> 00:33:49,034
Speaker 1: went back to the car. She's got a toddler and

707
00:33:49,074 --> 00:33:50,354
Speaker 1: a baby. She's strapping them all in.

708
00:33:50,634 --> 00:33:55,114
Speaker 5: She drives away, leaves behind her seven hundred dollar Bugaboo

709
00:33:55,194 --> 00:33:57,954
Speaker 5: pram And for anyone who's ever had babies, you know

710
00:33:57,994 --> 00:34:02,114
Speaker 5: what a status symbol a Bugaboo pram is. Anyhow, of course,

711
00:34:02,154 --> 00:34:04,114
Speaker 5: the thrift stall looks at it and goes, oh, someone's

712
00:34:04,154 --> 00:34:06,434
Speaker 5: just left this not where it's supposed to be. They

713
00:34:06,594 --> 00:34:09,473
Speaker 5: sold it to someone for twelve bucks, and then this

714
00:34:09,554 --> 00:34:10,434
Speaker 5: lady went on the internet.

715
00:34:10,433 --> 00:34:13,114
Speaker 1: She's like, I'm so sorry I left my pram behind.

716
00:34:13,354 --> 00:34:16,274
Speaker 5: Someone bought it for twelve bucks, desperately tried to like

717
00:34:16,354 --> 00:34:19,393
Speaker 5: get it back again. Apparently the woman who bought it

718
00:34:19,434 --> 00:34:21,794
Speaker 5: for twelve bucks, who thought she had the investment of

719
00:34:21,834 --> 00:34:25,433
Speaker 5: the century for moms, then came back and said, yeah,

720
00:34:25,434 --> 00:34:25,954
Speaker 5: look it was me.

721
00:34:26,274 --> 00:34:27,194
Speaker 1: I will give it back to you.

722
00:34:27,274 --> 00:34:30,714
Speaker 5: But then apparently Bugaboo has come back to the original

723
00:34:30,794 --> 00:34:32,994
Speaker 5: mum who lost your prem and s that here have

724
00:34:33,114 --> 00:34:33,914
Speaker 5: another one.

725
00:34:33,994 --> 00:34:34,594
Speaker 1: The other lady.

726
00:34:35,714 --> 00:34:38,194
Speaker 4: Okay, wait, I have a big question that I keep

727
00:34:38,474 --> 00:34:42,354
Speaker 4: wondering with this story, because if I left my Pram

728
00:34:42,634 --> 00:34:45,794
Speaker 4: outside of Salvos, no one would touch.

729
00:34:46,474 --> 00:34:48,954
Speaker 2: You're thinking the same thing, because you know how before

730
00:34:48,994 --> 00:34:52,114
Speaker 2: you donate anything to the salvo that you meant to

731
00:34:52,154 --> 00:34:54,394
Speaker 2: clean it and you meant to have it all nice

732
00:34:54,394 --> 00:34:56,354
Speaker 2: and well crapped beautiful.

733
00:34:56,834 --> 00:34:59,473
Speaker 3: Must have Pram have been so my pre tailed it.

734
00:34:59,554 --> 00:35:01,594
Speaker 1: People would not detailed it like that.

735
00:35:02,034 --> 00:35:05,274
Speaker 4: Maybe she detailed for fear of infection, like it has

736
00:35:05,314 --> 00:35:09,834
Speaker 4: mandarin pills, half a banana, dirty wipes, toys like spills

737
00:35:09,874 --> 00:35:12,714
Speaker 4: of smoothie and juice all on the white thing, like

738
00:35:13,434 --> 00:35:16,474
Speaker 4: the fact that it was in such condition that it

739
00:35:16,594 --> 00:35:19,393
Speaker 4: was sellable. But I reckon I have thought this with

740
00:35:19,434 --> 00:35:22,274
Speaker 4: prams because I'm in my parme Era. Love it the

741
00:35:22,354 --> 00:35:25,554
Speaker 4: places I leave the pram because I feel as though

742
00:35:25,994 --> 00:35:26,953
Speaker 4: like it's got this.

743
00:35:27,434 --> 00:35:30,634
Speaker 3: Stench, yes, stench that's like no one will ever.

744
00:35:30,514 --> 00:35:31,594
Speaker 2: Take active stench.

745
00:35:31,674 --> 00:35:34,274
Speaker 5: But also like a security aur about prams. Yeah, like

746
00:35:34,314 --> 00:35:36,154
Speaker 5: I see prams outside of places all the time. You

747
00:35:36,154 --> 00:35:38,234
Speaker 5: don't touch them, you don't steal them. They're for babies,

748
00:35:38,314 --> 00:35:40,874
Speaker 5: leave exactly. So I leave mine.

749
00:35:40,994 --> 00:35:42,834
Speaker 4: I will go I'm sure you're not meant to do this,

750
00:35:42,914 --> 00:35:45,114
Speaker 4: but like into my local. It's not a shopping center,

751
00:35:45,114 --> 00:35:47,393
Speaker 4: but it's like a little mall thing, right, And I

752
00:35:47,434 --> 00:35:49,914
Speaker 4: will leave it out the front because Luna's at the

753
00:35:49,954 --> 00:35:51,714
Speaker 4: age where she likes going up and down the escalator.

754
00:35:51,754 --> 00:35:54,554
Speaker 4: That's our excursion. So I will leave it sometimes for

755
00:35:54,674 --> 00:35:57,913
Speaker 4: thirty minutes with just whatever in it, thinking that no

756
00:35:57,914 --> 00:35:58,474
Speaker 4: one will touch it.

757
00:35:58,554 --> 00:35:59,754
Speaker 3: No one ever does touch it.

758
00:35:59,754 --> 00:36:00,433
Speaker 1: That's the rule.

759
00:36:00,554 --> 00:36:02,433
Speaker 4: So I if I were her, I would not be

760
00:36:02,474 --> 00:36:05,194
Speaker 4: expecting anyone to sell my buck a book.

761
00:36:05,234 --> 00:36:07,474
Speaker 2: I also feel for this woman because we all know

762
00:36:07,834 --> 00:36:11,394
Speaker 2: that to get the hand me downs to the Salvos,

763
00:36:11,434 --> 00:36:12,873
Speaker 2: she would have been driving around with them in the

764
00:36:12,874 --> 00:36:14,953
Speaker 2: back of her car for at least six months. We

765
00:36:14,994 --> 00:36:17,194
Speaker 2: all do that where you're like I'm definitely donating this,

766
00:36:17,274 --> 00:36:19,034
Speaker 2: I'm not throwing it out. But then you don't remember

767
00:36:19,274 --> 00:36:20,994
Speaker 2: she was driving around and she thought she had the

768
00:36:21,034 --> 00:36:22,274
Speaker 2: PRAM in the back of the car. The bit of

769
00:36:22,274 --> 00:36:24,993
Speaker 2: this story, she goes home, she opens the boot, it's

770
00:36:25,074 --> 00:36:27,474
Speaker 2: not there and the bags have gone, and she's like,

771
00:36:27,554 --> 00:36:29,034
Speaker 2: maybe I've had some kind of breakdown.

772
00:36:29,114 --> 00:36:29,514
Speaker 1: Yeah, I.

773
00:36:30,994 --> 00:36:34,314
Speaker 2: Really feel for her. I understand it on a deep level.

774
00:36:34,794 --> 00:36:37,314
Speaker 2: And the fact that someone out there scored a dirty

775
00:36:37,314 --> 00:36:39,874
Speaker 2: bugaboo pram for twelve bucks, oh my god.

776
00:36:40,114 --> 00:36:43,114
Speaker 5: Applause, amazing And just finally, could we maybe normalize using

777
00:36:43,114 --> 00:36:45,194
Speaker 5: prams when you no longer have a baby?

778
00:36:45,674 --> 00:36:47,714
Speaker 1: Like, just thinking about this, I'm like, God.

779
00:36:47,554 --> 00:36:49,634
Speaker 5: I wish I still had a pram, Like the amount

780
00:36:49,674 --> 00:36:50,754
Speaker 5: of stuff you can fit.

781
00:36:50,634 --> 00:36:52,354
Speaker 1: In it, don't have to carry anything.

782
00:36:52,634 --> 00:36:54,994
Speaker 3: So Claire, I have not used a plastic bag for

783
00:36:55,034 --> 00:36:55,714
Speaker 3: more than two.

784
00:36:55,594 --> 00:36:57,234
Speaker 2: Years because I'm a mental warrant shark.

785
00:36:57,314 --> 00:37:00,034
Speaker 4: I just have like banana whatever I've bought, just in

786
00:37:00,074 --> 00:37:03,274
Speaker 4: the bottom of the pram. But the thing is, if

787
00:37:03,314 --> 00:37:04,913
Speaker 4: I see you walking down the street with a PRAM

788
00:37:04,914 --> 00:37:06,674
Speaker 4: and no baby, I just assume you drop the baby

789
00:37:06,674 --> 00:37:10,913
Speaker 4: off somewhere. I think that you can absolutely go for pram.

790
00:37:10,674 --> 00:37:11,594
Speaker 2: Your kid's ten, but.

791
00:37:13,714 --> 00:37:17,434
Speaker 5: Then eventually you could maybe convert into like a dog pram,

792
00:37:17,474 --> 00:37:18,274
Speaker 5: like you know, I'd.

793
00:37:18,194 --> 00:37:19,194
Speaker 3: See a lot of those around.

794
00:37:19,434 --> 00:37:19,634
Speaker 2: Yeah.

795
00:37:19,914 --> 00:37:20,234
Speaker 7: Yeah.

796
00:37:20,274 --> 00:37:23,554
Speaker 5: Also the amount of stuff I've accidentally shoplifted because I've

797
00:37:23,554 --> 00:37:24,834
Speaker 5: put it in the bottom of the pram and then

798
00:37:24,874 --> 00:37:28,074
Speaker 5: walked out without paying for it. I apologize. I promise

799
00:37:28,154 --> 00:37:29,953
Speaker 5: not to do that anymore because it's not baby brain.

800
00:37:30,034 --> 00:37:32,834
Speaker 5: But like, can we just if we all had a pram,

801
00:37:33,074 --> 00:37:34,754
Speaker 5: we'd just be a much happier place.

802
00:37:34,834 --> 00:37:36,794
Speaker 2: I think, where's my midlife pram?

803
00:37:37,794 --> 00:37:39,034
Speaker 1: I've got a lot of shit.

804
00:37:38,834 --> 00:37:40,794
Speaker 2: To hurry around? Have you seen my skincare bag?

805
00:37:42,994 --> 00:37:45,354
Speaker 4: I want to introduce you both to an all or

806
00:37:45,394 --> 00:37:49,154
Speaker 4: nothing on a man named Ned former. If that rings

807
00:37:49,234 --> 00:37:52,074
Speaker 4: a bell, then you might be a rusted on out

808
00:37:52,114 --> 00:37:55,674
Speaker 4: louder who remembers our show from September twenty twenty two.

809
00:37:56,154 --> 00:38:01,314
Speaker 2: Who doesn't. Yes, I've committed exactly, yeah, every single one.

810
00:38:01,674 --> 00:38:04,554
Speaker 4: And that was three years ago, right, and our friend

811
00:38:04,554 --> 00:38:07,034
Speaker 4: Ned came up. Let's start at the beginning. Ned was

812
00:38:07,194 --> 00:38:09,314
Speaker 4: part of a group called the Try Guys. They were

813
00:38:09,354 --> 00:38:11,794
Speaker 4: all over BuzzFeed and then they went to YouTube and

814
00:38:12,314 --> 00:38:13,914
Speaker 4: you won't believe it, but they tried things.

815
00:38:14,274 --> 00:38:15,913
Speaker 2: They tried like a comedy kind of thing.

816
00:38:16,154 --> 00:38:19,194
Speaker 4: Yes, and they started like one of their most viral

817
00:38:19,274 --> 00:38:22,634
Speaker 4: videos was simulating labor paint. Well, they would try being

818
00:38:22,634 --> 00:38:24,594
Speaker 4: pregnant and put on like a pregnancy suit.

819
00:38:24,474 --> 00:38:26,834
Speaker 1: Or they saw one where they got waxed.

820
00:38:27,274 --> 00:38:30,594
Speaker 4: Yes, exactly right, just like try being a poker champion,

821
00:38:30,634 --> 00:38:34,913
Speaker 4: all that kind of stuff. And their videos had billions

822
00:38:34,954 --> 00:38:38,354
Speaker 4: of views, like they were totally, totally viral, and there

823
00:38:38,394 --> 00:38:43,154
Speaker 4: were four of them, and Ned Fulmer was known as

824
00:38:43,514 --> 00:38:45,354
Speaker 4: the wife guy. The reason he was kind of known

825
00:38:45,394 --> 00:38:46,913
Speaker 4: as that was that he had two little kids at

826
00:38:46,914 --> 00:38:50,274
Speaker 4: the time and his wife Ariel, who appeared in a

827
00:38:50,274 --> 00:38:53,634
Speaker 4: lot of the content as well. People really leaned into that.

828
00:38:53,674 --> 00:38:57,714
Speaker 2: Life guy became kind of like we've thrown it around

829
00:38:57,714 --> 00:38:59,913
Speaker 2: a lot, like I always say, David Beckham's a wife guy.

830
00:38:59,914 --> 00:39:02,914
Speaker 2: There are certain celebrities who are always like being really

831
00:39:02,914 --> 00:39:05,834
Speaker 2: in love with their wife is part of their brand.

832
00:39:05,674 --> 00:39:06,834
Speaker 3: And that started with Ned.

833
00:39:06,914 --> 00:39:07,114
Speaker 2: Ned.

834
00:39:07,154 --> 00:39:09,154
Speaker 3: It was the first time we heard he's the og

835
00:39:09,354 --> 00:39:11,033
Speaker 3: wife guy. He's the og wife guy.

836
00:39:11,954 --> 00:39:16,754
Speaker 4: And look that was until fans photographed Ned having an

837
00:39:16,794 --> 00:39:19,434
Speaker 4: affair with the producer of the show.

838
00:39:19,594 --> 00:39:22,034
Speaker 2: This is one of the problems with being a wife, guy,

839
00:39:22,314 --> 00:39:24,354
Speaker 2: is that if it turns out that you're not so

840
00:39:24,514 --> 00:39:26,514
Speaker 2: great to your wife. What happened?

841
00:39:26,834 --> 00:39:31,514
Speaker 4: So the fan was out and about and he was like,

842
00:39:31,594 --> 00:39:32,754
Speaker 4: he must have been kissing us.

843
00:39:32,834 --> 00:39:33,874
Speaker 3: It was very, very obvious.

844
00:39:33,914 --> 00:39:36,354
Speaker 4: But they took photos of Ned and this woman and

845
00:39:36,394 --> 00:39:39,954
Speaker 4: then sent them directly to Ariel He's white, directly to

846
00:39:40,034 --> 00:39:43,794
Speaker 4: the wife y outed by a fan, and then some

847
00:39:44,034 --> 00:39:49,873
Speaker 4: video photo thing went absolutely viral and ultimately Ned was

848
00:39:49,914 --> 00:39:52,754
Speaker 4: booted from the group. And this story to give you

849
00:39:52,754 --> 00:39:54,154
Speaker 4: a sense of how big it was at the time.

850
00:39:54,274 --> 00:39:57,314
Speaker 4: It was parodied on Saturday Night Life, it was in newspapers,

851
00:39:57,514 --> 00:39:59,714
Speaker 4: it was everywhere. It made it to us even though

852
00:39:59,754 --> 00:40:01,794
Speaker 4: we'd never heard of the Try guys before this moment.

853
00:40:02,594 --> 00:40:05,674
Speaker 4: Three years past, both of them disappeared. You've not heard

854
00:40:05,674 --> 00:40:09,393
Speaker 4: anything from them. It was one of the biggest cancelations ever.

855
00:40:09,754 --> 00:40:12,154
Speaker 1: Did they get divorced like we presumed that they split.

856
00:40:12,034 --> 00:40:13,154
Speaker 3: Up, We didn't know.

857
00:40:14,114 --> 00:40:18,873
Speaker 2: Lost his job. Basically they booted him from the crew

858
00:40:19,034 --> 00:40:21,674
Speaker 2: because he was bringing them into disrepute. Ye wow.

859
00:40:21,714 --> 00:40:24,754
Speaker 4: And there had been sightings those of the two sort

860
00:40:24,754 --> 00:40:26,433
Speaker 4: of around where they lived, and they were like, oh,

861
00:40:26,434 --> 00:40:28,514
Speaker 4: maybe they're still together, maybe they're not. We don't really know,

862
00:40:29,474 --> 00:40:33,314
Speaker 4: but Ned is back. He has a podcast called rock

863
00:40:33,354 --> 00:40:37,194
Speaker 4: Bottom where he interviews people who have made big mistakes

864
00:40:37,194 --> 00:40:39,433
Speaker 4: and he asked them how they came back. And the

865
00:40:39,474 --> 00:40:42,594
Speaker 4: first guest, which doesn't actually quite fulfill that promise of

866
00:40:42,594 --> 00:40:46,434
Speaker 4: a podcast, but anyway, his first guest is his wife Aeriel.

867
00:40:46,754 --> 00:40:48,953
Speaker 4: And here's a little taste of the conversation they had.

868
00:40:49,274 --> 00:40:54,994
Speaker 8: People ask me like, do you forgive Ned for what

869
00:40:56,394 --> 00:41:02,114
Speaker 8: he did? And I mean the answer is no, absolutely not.

870
00:41:02,914 --> 00:41:07,834
Speaker 8: How can you forgive somebody for like, for lying to you,

871
00:41:08,234 --> 00:41:11,594
Speaker 8: for cheating on you?

872
00:41:11,594 --> 00:41:11,834
Speaker 4: No?

873
00:41:12,634 --> 00:41:14,114
Speaker 2: Fuck no, fuck no.

874
00:41:14,474 --> 00:41:15,634
Speaker 1: I think I like Ariel.

875
00:41:16,154 --> 00:41:17,154
Speaker 3: I like Ariel a.

876
00:41:17,114 --> 00:41:20,314
Speaker 2: Lot, though she obviously has forgiven him, to the point

877
00:41:20,314 --> 00:41:22,513
Speaker 2: where when I was reading a little bit about this,

878
00:41:23,434 --> 00:41:25,674
Speaker 2: they talk about how they are kind of still together,

879
00:41:25,834 --> 00:41:27,794
Speaker 2: like they're not together, but they're together, like as in,

880
00:41:27,794 --> 00:41:30,794
Speaker 2: they're together as a family unit, they do things together

881
00:41:30,794 --> 00:41:33,114
Speaker 2: as a family. They're not explicit in whether or not

882
00:41:33,154 --> 00:41:37,034
Speaker 2: they've moved on or really got divorced, but clearly she

883
00:41:37,194 --> 00:41:41,274
Speaker 2: wants everybody to know that she did not stick with

884
00:41:41,434 --> 00:41:44,434
Speaker 2: that idiot who was so silly that he was cheating

885
00:41:44,514 --> 00:41:46,873
Speaker 2: in public as a famous person who was a.

886
00:41:46,794 --> 00:41:51,074
Speaker 4: Wife guy exactly. Interestingly, he isn't resentful about being canceled.

887
00:41:51,234 --> 00:41:53,714
Speaker 4: He says it was justified. And then he totally gets

888
00:41:53,754 --> 00:41:55,913
Speaker 4: it and that what the internet wants is a one

889
00:41:55,954 --> 00:41:59,194
Speaker 4: dimensional character, which he played into, which was his wife

890
00:41:59,234 --> 00:42:02,953
Speaker 4: guy thing. And in Good News, Ariel is setting up

891
00:42:02,994 --> 00:42:04,873
Speaker 4: a pottery business. I hope it was a link in

892
00:42:04,874 --> 00:42:08,114
Speaker 4: the show notes and we all that for her go

893
00:42:08,194 --> 00:42:09,114
Speaker 4: by a pottery.

894
00:42:08,874 --> 00:42:11,114
Speaker 2: So he's coming back and she's coming back in different

895
00:42:11,154 --> 00:42:13,714
Speaker 2: ways exactly now what he's been doing for money for

896
00:42:13,754 --> 00:42:14,314
Speaker 2: three years.

897
00:42:14,314 --> 00:42:18,114
Speaker 4: Here's my question, right, is because there has been an

898
00:42:18,354 --> 00:42:21,874
Speaker 4: enormous amount of resistance, people say, oh interesting. In the podcast,

899
00:42:21,914 --> 00:42:24,674
Speaker 4: she calls it the affair, he calls it the scandal. Right,

900
00:42:25,314 --> 00:42:28,074
Speaker 4: there's a lot of eye rolling. Three is a long time.

901
00:42:28,634 --> 00:42:31,714
Speaker 2: Does he go into any detail about the affair? I

902
00:42:31,714 --> 00:42:33,514
Speaker 2: think he says it's someone at work, right, But he

903
00:42:33,514 --> 00:42:35,954
Speaker 2: doesn't give you any context in how long was it

904
00:42:36,034 --> 00:42:36,393
Speaker 2: going on?

905
00:42:36,954 --> 00:42:39,154
Speaker 4: No, and then he says something that I didn't like

906
00:42:39,594 --> 00:42:43,194
Speaker 4: about how their marriage was kind of a fantasy and

907
00:42:43,234 --> 00:42:46,154
Speaker 4: the dream was starting to break. I really hate it

908
00:42:46,194 --> 00:42:49,034
Speaker 4: when an affair like this happens and they're kind of like, well,

909
00:42:49,154 --> 00:42:50,314
Speaker 4: you know, there was a problem with.

910
00:42:50,314 --> 00:42:51,634
Speaker 3: The marriage, even if that's true.

911
00:42:52,074 --> 00:42:54,994
Speaker 4: Yeah, just like it attempts to place blame on the

912
00:42:55,034 --> 00:42:57,274
Speaker 4: other person in a way that I think is really unhelpful.

913
00:42:57,434 --> 00:42:59,194
Speaker 5: Like life can get hard, you don't have to cheat

914
00:42:59,234 --> 00:43:01,354
Speaker 5: on your partner. You can have open discussions with them

915
00:43:01,354 --> 00:43:02,473
Speaker 5: and act like an adult.

916
00:43:02,354 --> 00:43:03,874
Speaker 3: And in the relationship that's allowed.

917
00:43:03,914 --> 00:43:07,474
Speaker 2: But is there a good way to be a amous

918
00:43:07,474 --> 00:43:10,234
Speaker 2: person or a public person and to come back from

919
00:43:10,234 --> 00:43:12,794
Speaker 2: a cheating scandal without looking like a dick. Because I'm

920
00:43:12,794 --> 00:43:16,393
Speaker 2: thinking about I mentioned before wife Guy Trademarke, wife Guy

921
00:43:16,474 --> 00:43:20,074
Speaker 2: David Beckham very famously there was a big cheating scandal

922
00:43:20,114 --> 00:43:23,154
Speaker 2: with Heat and Posh in the noughties. Their strategy has

923
00:43:23,154 --> 00:43:26,114
Speaker 2: always been don't talk about it. Just don't talk about it,

924
00:43:26,274 --> 00:43:28,393
Speaker 2: just don't go there, just don't give it oxygen. Even

925
00:43:28,434 --> 00:43:31,634
Speaker 2: in their documentary, the Beckham Documentary, it was kind of

926
00:43:31,714 --> 00:43:35,194
Speaker 2: referenced as we went through a hard time. Some of

927
00:43:35,194 --> 00:43:37,434
Speaker 2: the headlines even about that story were a bit edited.

928
00:43:37,474 --> 00:43:41,354
Speaker 2: So they've never given it fuel. Now this guy is

929
00:43:41,354 --> 00:43:43,034
Speaker 2: giving it a lot of fuel in a way, but

930
00:43:43,074 --> 00:43:45,634
Speaker 2: he's still kind of talking around it. As you say, Jesse,

931
00:43:45,794 --> 00:43:48,834
Speaker 2: he's calling it a scandal, a problem in my marriage,

932
00:43:48,874 --> 00:43:52,074
Speaker 2: he's not. Is there a way for a cheater, particularly

933
00:43:52,114 --> 00:43:54,834
Speaker 2: a male cheater, although maybe we don't see female cheaters

934
00:43:54,834 --> 00:43:58,314
Speaker 2: talking about publicly to win back a female audience, do

935
00:43:58,354 --> 00:43:58,834
Speaker 2: you reckon?

936
00:43:58,954 --> 00:44:01,194
Speaker 3: So that's a good point about the female audience.

937
00:44:01,394 --> 00:44:03,954
Speaker 4: That I should say as well is that eighty percent

938
00:44:03,994 --> 00:44:05,954
Speaker 4: of the Try guy's audience was young women. And I

939
00:44:05,994 --> 00:44:10,114
Speaker 4: think that's the other, the other important factor, and that

940
00:44:10,314 --> 00:44:13,554
Speaker 4: I don't think his crime was in fidelity. I think

941
00:44:13,554 --> 00:44:16,834
Speaker 4: his crime was being inauthentic. Yes, people felt as though

942
00:44:16,954 --> 00:44:20,393
Speaker 4: I was sold this version of you, and now I

943
00:44:20,434 --> 00:44:23,354
Speaker 4: saw someone in an article compare him to someone that

944
00:44:23,434 --> 00:44:25,354
Speaker 4: was a literal criminal, and I went, no, No, he's not

945
00:44:25,394 --> 00:44:27,714
Speaker 4: a criminal. He did something bad that a lot of

946
00:44:27,754 --> 00:44:29,754
Speaker 4: people do. I mean, even the word bad, like it's

947
00:44:29,834 --> 00:44:32,433
Speaker 4: very moralizing, like who or any of us to judge.

948
00:44:32,554 --> 00:44:35,194
Speaker 2: But she says she felt betrayed, So yeah, so we

949
00:44:35,314 --> 00:44:37,594
Speaker 2: know that for her, cheating was a line. Like we

950
00:44:37,674 --> 00:44:39,714
Speaker 2: talked about this when it was the Coldplay couple. You

951
00:44:39,754 --> 00:44:42,074
Speaker 2: don't always know what's going on in people's marriages. You

952
00:44:42,074 --> 00:44:44,434
Speaker 2: don't always know where they're up to and whether or

953
00:44:44,474 --> 00:44:46,794
Speaker 2: not they're separating or not. You don't always know. Maybe

954
00:44:46,794 --> 00:44:49,714
Speaker 2: they're open. Maybe they're not, but she has clearly said

955
00:44:49,754 --> 00:44:52,554
Speaker 2: here like this devastated me and I will never forgive you.

956
00:44:52,754 --> 00:44:54,993
Speaker 5: But I think what you said, Jesse then is so

957
00:44:55,074 --> 00:44:57,714
Speaker 5: true in that the audience that he was catering to,

958
00:44:57,994 --> 00:45:00,154
Speaker 5: being majority women, are going to be a lot harder

959
00:45:00,154 --> 00:45:02,913
Speaker 5: to win back than if your audience is majority men.

960
00:45:03,154 --> 00:45:06,314
Speaker 5: Like Donald Trump, for example, has famously cheated on his

961
00:45:06,354 --> 00:45:09,914
Speaker 5: wives and and so on and said awful things about women,

962
00:45:10,114 --> 00:45:12,194
Speaker 5: and yet it doesn't really matter for him that much

963
00:45:12,194 --> 00:45:15,393
Speaker 5: because the majority of his supporters are men. And I

964
00:45:15,394 --> 00:45:17,913
Speaker 5: think if you are catering to women, women are so

965
00:45:18,154 --> 00:45:20,954
Speaker 5: much more judgmental of you if you have hurt another woman,

966
00:45:21,554 --> 00:45:24,554
Speaker 5: unless for whatever reason, the Internet hates that woman, which

967
00:45:24,714 --> 00:45:27,714
Speaker 5: could be for various reasons. So we don't hate Ariel.

968
00:45:27,914 --> 00:45:30,354
Speaker 5: We like Ariel. So that's why it's going to be

969
00:45:30,354 --> 00:45:32,913
Speaker 5: really tough for him to come back unless he takes

970
00:45:32,914 --> 00:45:35,514
Speaker 5: full responsibility, which it sounds like he is definitely not

971
00:45:35,594 --> 00:45:36,234
Speaker 5: done well.

972
00:45:36,274 --> 00:45:38,834
Speaker 4: It's funny, right because even the name of the podcast

973
00:45:38,914 --> 00:45:42,274
Speaker 4: being rock bottom, Like if he went to the best

974
00:45:42,634 --> 00:45:45,634
Speaker 4: crisis PR team in the world, which I reckon he has,

975
00:45:46,074 --> 00:45:48,873
Speaker 4: and he said, what's a move? I think This is

976
00:45:48,954 --> 00:45:50,953
Speaker 4: exactly what they would tell him to do. I think

977
00:45:50,994 --> 00:45:54,274
Speaker 4: they'd say, laylo, try and repair things to some extent.

978
00:45:54,314 --> 00:45:56,194
Speaker 4: You don't have to get back together, but show that

979
00:45:56,274 --> 00:45:58,754
Speaker 4: she can tolerate you. That's a good start. Willing enough

980
00:45:58,754 --> 00:46:01,394
Speaker 4: to come on your podcast is enough? Yes, Yes, platform

981
00:46:01,434 --> 00:46:03,554
Speaker 4: her because the big thing is always like, well you

982
00:46:03,634 --> 00:46:05,834
Speaker 4: got your say, she didn't get hers, So give her

983
00:46:05,874 --> 00:46:06,354
Speaker 4: her say.

984
00:46:06,594 --> 00:46:08,953
Speaker 2: There's someone else, though, isn't there who isn't getting a say?

985
00:46:09,154 --> 00:46:12,274
Speaker 2: The other woman in this situation, which is why these

986
00:46:12,274 --> 00:46:15,274
Speaker 2: things are so thorny to discuss because we always talk

987
00:46:15,314 --> 00:46:17,634
Speaker 2: about like you can tell your truth, but your truth

988
00:46:17,674 --> 00:46:20,954
Speaker 2: nearly always involves someone else and their truth. So maybe

989
00:46:21,154 --> 00:46:23,994
Speaker 2: also wherever that woman is, the woman who was in

990
00:46:24,034 --> 00:46:26,593
Speaker 2: the photos that got sent to Ariel, this will blow

991
00:46:26,634 --> 00:46:28,393
Speaker 2: all this up for her as well. Like if I

992
00:46:28,514 --> 00:46:31,314
Speaker 2: was you know, we're all done our time as internet journalists.

993
00:46:31,714 --> 00:46:34,314
Speaker 2: Whatever happened to the woman that ned Fulmer was passing

994
00:46:34,394 --> 00:46:37,433
Speaker 2: in that restaurant, like, it also blows that back up

995
00:46:37,754 --> 00:46:41,074
Speaker 2: for her. So there's another strategy here, which is that

996
00:46:41,114 --> 00:46:44,274
Speaker 2: ned Fulmer came back to make an interesting and original

997
00:46:44,274 --> 00:46:46,194
Speaker 2: podcast about something that had nothing to do with his

998
00:46:46,274 --> 00:46:47,034
Speaker 2: personal life.

999
00:46:47,114 --> 00:46:49,114
Speaker 4: See, I don't think that was ever an option. I

1000
00:46:49,154 --> 00:46:53,074
Speaker 4: reckon that he's brand now is rock bottom, Like that's

1001
00:46:53,114 --> 00:46:55,873
Speaker 4: his brand and he needs white wife guy, and he

1002
00:46:55,994 --> 00:47:00,114
Speaker 4: needs to own it and go I'm the guy that

1003
00:47:00,434 --> 00:47:04,154
Speaker 4: was spat out by the internet ruthlessly. I'm going to

1004
00:47:04,274 --> 00:47:08,514
Speaker 4: explore that in a series with like bear All, and

1005
00:47:08,554 --> 00:47:10,354
Speaker 4: I think that we've seen a lot of men, even

1006
00:47:10,514 --> 00:47:13,674
Speaker 4: like the Louis c ks is like they've got to

1007
00:47:13,674 --> 00:47:14,714
Speaker 4: be the canceled dude.

1008
00:47:14,834 --> 00:47:15,994
Speaker 3: They have to kind.

1009
00:47:15,754 --> 00:47:18,393
Speaker 4: Of wear that for a while, right, even all their

1010
00:47:18,394 --> 00:47:20,314
Speaker 4: specials are like corns anything.

1011
00:47:21,234 --> 00:47:24,314
Speaker 2: You're so right, But as Murphy's just said, that works

1012
00:47:24,354 --> 00:47:26,594
Speaker 2: okay for your brand if your brand was never squeaky

1013
00:47:26,634 --> 00:47:28,314
Speaker 2: clean in the first place. Like the reason why you're

1014
00:47:28,354 --> 00:47:30,834
Speaker 2: Donald Trump's and your Charlie Sheen's. You were talking about

1015
00:47:30,834 --> 00:47:34,594
Speaker 2: that doco the other day, Like everybody knows that they

1016
00:47:34,634 --> 00:47:37,274
Speaker 2: are not morally, you know, untouchable when it comes to

1017
00:47:37,354 --> 00:47:39,834
Speaker 2: the cheating on their wives. Is probably good for their

1018
00:47:39,874 --> 00:47:42,794
Speaker 2: brand in some twisted way. They're not pretending. You hit

1019
00:47:42,834 --> 00:47:44,393
Speaker 2: the nail on the head before Jesse when he said

1020
00:47:44,394 --> 00:47:47,913
Speaker 2: it's about the inauthenticity, which is why some people get

1021
00:47:47,994 --> 00:47:50,433
Speaker 2: canceled for things that other people can say freely. It's

1022
00:47:50,474 --> 00:47:52,594
Speaker 2: because they're like, well, I thought you were somebody different.

1023
00:47:52,634 --> 00:47:53,714
Speaker 2: I didn't think you were that person.

1024
00:47:54,274 --> 00:47:56,634
Speaker 3: Ellen DeGeneres her not being kind.

1025
00:47:56,834 --> 00:47:58,714
Speaker 2: Because everyone was like, but she's the nice lady who

1026
00:47:58,794 --> 00:48:01,634
Speaker 2: dances on the show. But it's interesting because your point

1027
00:48:01,674 --> 00:48:03,634
Speaker 2: about this is a great strategy to come back into

1028
00:48:03,674 --> 00:48:06,754
Speaker 2: viewing people at the bottom of pylons. Is that it

1029
00:48:07,434 --> 00:48:10,554
Speaker 2: because he can't put himself in company of genuine victims,

1030
00:48:10,674 --> 00:48:11,994
Speaker 2: do you know what I mean? Like people who have

1031
00:48:12,114 --> 00:48:17,514
Speaker 2: genuinely been misrepresented bleed, Like he can't really put himself

1032
00:48:17,554 --> 00:48:20,034
Speaker 2: in the company of that when he was having an

1033
00:48:20,034 --> 00:48:23,714
Speaker 2: affair with a co worker and just was not smart

1034
00:48:23,794 --> 00:48:25,834
Speaker 2: enough to be private about it.

1035
00:48:25,874 --> 00:48:29,514
Speaker 5: Be interesting to see who his next guest lineup is,

1036
00:48:29,674 --> 00:48:32,154
Speaker 5: because you're right, it would be pretty difficult for him

1037
00:48:32,154 --> 00:48:35,034
Speaker 5: to connect with someone who's been canceled for other reasons.

1038
00:48:35,074 --> 00:48:38,754
Speaker 5: But if his list of candidates is like other men

1039
00:48:39,354 --> 00:48:42,314
Speaker 5: who've done things like that, might be interesting to hear

1040
00:48:42,354 --> 00:48:43,554
Speaker 5: how men speak to.

1041
00:48:43,514 --> 00:48:44,914
Speaker 1: Other men about these moments.

1042
00:48:44,954 --> 00:48:49,154
Speaker 5: But I think trotting out Ariel forp one, I think

1043
00:48:49,194 --> 00:48:50,674
Speaker 5: I could see what they were trying to do with that.

1044
00:48:50,714 --> 00:48:52,953
Speaker 5: They want to blow open all the cobwebs. They don't

1045
00:48:52,954 --> 00:48:55,514
Speaker 5: want anyone to ask any more questions. They want that

1046
00:48:55,594 --> 00:48:58,474
Speaker 5: out of the way upfront, like, stop talking about it,

1047
00:48:58,554 --> 00:48:59,674
Speaker 5: let's move on with this.

1048
00:48:59,594 --> 00:49:01,114
Speaker 1: Now new podcast idea.

1049
00:49:01,794 --> 00:49:04,194
Speaker 5: But I'm really interested to see who these next guests

1050
00:49:04,234 --> 00:49:05,913
Speaker 5: are going to be, because I think that will then

1051
00:49:05,994 --> 00:49:08,554
Speaker 5: mark what kind of guy this guy is.

1052
00:49:09,034 --> 00:49:11,873
Speaker 2: I also think you nailed it in there. There's lots

1053
00:49:11,914 --> 00:49:16,114
Speaker 2: of enthusiasm for Ariel because very often when a public

1054
00:49:16,154 --> 00:49:18,433
Speaker 2: man is cheating and then his wife comes out and

1055
00:49:18,474 --> 00:49:21,274
Speaker 2: says that she stood by him in whatever capacity, she

1056
00:49:21,354 --> 00:49:23,794
Speaker 2: usually does say that she forgave him. She usually says

1057
00:49:23,834 --> 00:49:26,114
Speaker 2: I knew he wasn't being himself. I knew he was

1058
00:49:26,154 --> 00:49:28,554
Speaker 2: going through a hard time. I know there's a lot

1059
00:49:28,554 --> 00:49:31,514
Speaker 2: of love here. And so to hear Ariel say quite

1060
00:49:31,554 --> 00:49:35,714
Speaker 2: so clearly no fuck no about this, I think there'd

1061
00:49:35,714 --> 00:49:37,154
Speaker 2: probably be a lot of women cheering.

1062
00:49:37,354 --> 00:49:41,034
Speaker 4: And the question is whether this relaunch is gonna work.

1063
00:49:41,474 --> 00:49:43,154
Speaker 4: Because he has every right to come back. He can

1064
00:49:43,234 --> 00:49:44,354
Speaker 4: lost whatever show he wants.

1065
00:49:44,434 --> 00:49:46,754
Speaker 2: You could argue that losing your job for a private

1066
00:49:46,914 --> 00:49:50,394
Speaker 2: you know, is not really fair, but as we've already unpacked,

1067
00:49:50,394 --> 00:49:54,234
Speaker 2: a's largely because he was being fraudulent in his representation exactly.

1068
00:49:54,354 --> 00:49:58,433
Speaker 4: But we don't have any obligation to listen, or to

1069
00:49:59,194 --> 00:50:00,674
Speaker 4: enjoy or to consume the content.

1070
00:50:00,714 --> 00:50:02,354
Speaker 3: And I can't.

1071
00:50:02,074 --> 00:50:05,834
Speaker 4: Really see it being because he's his role was. He

1072
00:50:05,914 --> 00:50:09,074
Speaker 4: described himself as a comede before, and this all has

1073
00:50:09,114 --> 00:50:12,513
Speaker 4: to get very serious in order for him to wear

1074
00:50:12,554 --> 00:50:15,074
Speaker 4: it and try and build back his reputation, and I

1075
00:50:15,634 --> 00:50:16,474
Speaker 4: don't see it working.

1076
00:50:17,034 --> 00:50:19,393
Speaker 2: I hobby, I hope her pottery businesses a lot of

1077
00:50:19,394 --> 00:50:21,234
Speaker 2: cops that say fuck no at the bottom of it.

1078
00:50:21,354 --> 00:50:25,393
Speaker 7: Yeah, I love it out loud as a massive thank

1079
00:50:25,434 --> 00:50:27,594
Speaker 7: you to all of you for being with us here today,

1080
00:50:27,634 --> 00:50:30,034
Speaker 7: and to you Claire Murphy of course for filling from

1081
00:50:30,034 --> 00:50:33,074
Speaker 7: Melia Lester, and to everybody for putting up with my

1082
00:50:33,154 --> 00:50:34,474
Speaker 7: slightly wobbly voice.

1083
00:50:34,754 --> 00:50:37,074
Speaker 2: Friends, don't forget that if you want to see our

1084
00:50:37,154 --> 00:50:40,433
Speaker 2: glorious faces. This is what Need got wrong is he

1085
00:50:40,434 --> 00:50:42,993
Speaker 2: didn't realize he was Internet famous at a level that

1086
00:50:43,034 --> 00:50:44,994
Speaker 2: we know. This is why you can't scream at your

1087
00:50:45,034 --> 00:50:47,354
Speaker 2: daughter in public. No, you see, I can't choke passion

1088
00:50:47,394 --> 00:50:49,594
Speaker 2: pop at at his school function.

1089
00:50:49,714 --> 00:50:49,794
Speaker 8: No.

1090
00:50:49,874 --> 00:50:52,873
Speaker 4: The rule is, Claire, you can't cheat in public. It's

1091
00:50:52,914 --> 00:50:54,913
Speaker 4: got to be behind closed doors. That's the number one

1092
00:50:54,994 --> 00:50:56,274
Speaker 4: role of having your face on the internet.

1093
00:50:56,394 --> 00:50:58,073
Speaker 5: Look, I'm glad you told me that because I would

1094
00:50:58,074 --> 00:50:59,754
Speaker 5: never have worked that out on my own without you

1095
00:51:00,194 --> 00:51:00,794
Speaker 5: killing me in.

1096
00:51:01,554 --> 00:51:04,194
Speaker 2: If you want to be able to recognize us causing

1097
00:51:04,234 --> 00:51:06,754
Speaker 2: misdemeanors in public, you need to go over on YouTube

1098
00:51:07,314 --> 00:51:08,834
Speaker 2: how over to YouTube watch.

1099
00:51:08,754 --> 00:51:10,794
Speaker 5: Please don't judge me for my middle aged pram, which

1100
00:51:10,834 --> 00:51:12,754
Speaker 5: will be in some kind of condition by the time

1101
00:51:12,794 --> 00:51:13,314
Speaker 5: you see.

1102
00:51:13,154 --> 00:51:16,234
Speaker 2: It, and we will be back in your ears tomorrow.

1103
00:51:16,634 --> 00:51:19,234
Speaker 4: Out loud as before we go, Parenting out Loud, your

1104
00:51:19,234 --> 00:51:21,754
Speaker 4: favorite news show is in its own feed, so you

1105
00:51:21,794 --> 00:51:24,474
Speaker 4: need to go and follow it At Parenting out Loud.

1106
00:51:24,714 --> 00:51:27,754
Speaker 4: There are new apps every Saturday and it is hosted

1107
00:51:27,794 --> 00:51:30,994
Speaker 4: by Monic Bowley, Amelia Lester and Stacy Hicks. And in

1108
00:51:31,034 --> 00:51:34,034
Speaker 4: the latest episode, they talk about the rise of something

1109
00:51:34,034 --> 00:51:36,794
Speaker 4: called stealth mum and why more and more women are

1110
00:51:36,874 --> 00:51:40,634
Speaker 4: choosing not to share that they're parents. Plus they also

1111
00:51:40,674 --> 00:51:44,194
Speaker 4: have a chat about the new rule book around praise and.

1112
00:51:44,074 --> 00:51:47,034
Speaker 3: Why millennial parents are overthinking things no I do.

1113
00:51:47,234 --> 00:51:49,314
Speaker 4: What's It's a great episode.

1114
00:51:49,354 --> 00:51:51,354
Speaker 3: There's a link in our show notes.

1115
00:51:51,474 --> 00:51:55,154
Speaker 4: Bye bye, shout out to any mom and me A

1116
00:51:55,234 --> 00:51:58,074
Speaker 4: subscribers listening. If you love the show and you want

1117
00:51:58,074 --> 00:52:00,794
Speaker 4: to support us, subscribing to mom and Mia is the

1118
00:52:00,914 --> 00:52:02,274
Speaker 4: very best way to do so.

1119
00:52:02,674 --> 00:52:04,394
Speaker 3: There's a link in the episode description

1120
00:52:07,674 --> 00:52:10,154
Speaker 2: Being then protest conta