WEBVTT - Divorce? You're Not Alone 0:00:10.622 --> 0:00:13.342 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 0:00:13.822 --> 0:00:17.182 Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:17.222 --> 0:00:20.622 that this podcast is recorded on Hello, out louders. It's 0:00:20.662 --> 0:00:23.142 a public holiday today, so we're bringing you something a 0:00:23.222 --> 0:00:26.342 little bit different than your usual Monday Mamma maya out 0:00:26.342 --> 0:00:27.062 loud episode. 0:00:27.262 --> 0:00:31.422 Did you know that January is widely considered divorce month? 0:00:31.462 --> 0:00:32.302 Have you got an announcement? 0:00:32.382 --> 0:00:34.542 Jesse, No, I don't do you Holly can't get. 0:00:34.462 --> 0:00:36.382 Divorced because she's not married, because she's a hoe and 0:00:36.422 --> 0:00:39.821 not the gardening type. There was a piece written for 0:00:39.862 --> 0:00:42.702 Mamma mea a title January is Divorce Month, and it 0:00:42.742 --> 0:00:45.742 talks about why relationships particularly fall apart at this time 0:00:45.782 --> 0:00:47.942 of year. I don't know if anyone has ever tried 0:00:47.982 --> 0:00:50.702 to get an appointment with a marriage counselor or any 0:00:50.742 --> 0:00:52.542 kind of therapist in January or February. 0:00:52.822 --> 0:00:54.342 Very tricky. For speaking from. 0:00:54.302 --> 0:00:57.742 Experience, they say it's They think it's probably a combination 0:00:58.062 --> 0:01:02.382 of holiday financial pressure, spending too much time together and 0:01:02.462 --> 0:01:04.342 maybe with family and in laws too when you're just 0:01:04.422 --> 0:01:07.462 like I'm done with that, or conflicting parenting styles over 0:01:07.462 --> 0:01:10.702 the school holidays. Whatever it is, all bad in. 0:01:10.742 --> 0:01:14.822 Changular, there are likely many out louders who are nodding 0:01:14.862 --> 0:01:17.182 in recognition or have someone in their life who is 0:01:17.222 --> 0:01:19.782 going through it. So we thought today we would share 0:01:19.902 --> 0:01:23.902 a chat that could come in handy. In this episode, 0:01:24.102 --> 0:01:27.422 we unpack some words from a celebrity who has gone 0:01:27.462 --> 0:01:28.622 through a divorce. 0:01:28.902 --> 0:01:32.101 It's actually a subscriber episode, but we thought because these 0:01:32.102 --> 0:01:34.942 are serious times, we might bring it out from behind 0:01:34.942 --> 0:01:37.422 the paywall in case it helps any out louders who 0:01:37.422 --> 0:01:38.822 are listening and maybe going through it. 0:01:39.062 --> 0:01:40.342 Enjoy out Louders. 0:01:40.342 --> 0:01:41.822 I'm going to bring up a name we haven't mentioned 0:01:41.862 --> 0:01:43.222 for a while, and some of you might go, oh, no, 0:01:43.302 --> 0:01:45.462 they're going to talk about her again, But she's one 0:01:45.502 --> 0:01:48.342 of our out loud family, one of our extended family 0:01:48.422 --> 0:01:50.182 of hyperfixation celebrities. 0:01:51.302 --> 0:01:53.782 Hi, guys, it's Emily Radikowski. 0:01:53.422 --> 0:01:58.022 Em Rada as she has always known here, model, prominent feminist. 0:01:57.942 --> 0:01:58.022 Or. 0:01:59.862 --> 0:02:01.422 She nemesis of mine. 0:02:03.382 --> 0:02:05.902 She has no idea that she's me as nemesis, but 0:02:06.062 --> 0:02:09.142 you know, anyway, she gave a big interview in Vogue 0:02:09.181 --> 0:02:12.062 recently or did she do the interview? I can't remember. Anyway, 0:02:12.222 --> 0:02:13.982 it was like her and an author and they were 0:02:14.022 --> 0:02:16.782 doing a conversation and it was all about divorce. And 0:02:16.822 --> 0:02:19.382 the reason I'm bringing it is because I think that 0:02:19.462 --> 0:02:22.222 she said something that is actually very relatable. 0:02:22.262 --> 0:02:24.862 Does she need our help because she's done a segment? 0:02:24.982 --> 0:02:27.702 It's like that, right, So A you might remember that 0:02:27.742 --> 0:02:29.782 a while she got divorced in twenty twenty two, she 0:02:29.862 --> 0:02:32.661 had been married to this guy with a silly name. 0:02:32.742 --> 0:02:34.942 No offense to anyone who's listening to this, who's called 0:02:34.982 --> 0:02:40.142 Sebastian Bear McClard. Your name isn't silly, but this man's 0:02:40.222 --> 0:02:43.022 is silly. And they got divorced in twenty twenty two 0:02:43.062 --> 0:02:44.781 after four years of marriage. And they share a son. 0:02:44.902 --> 0:02:48.462 And then Emrada posted her diamond rings that she'd repurposed 0:02:48.462 --> 0:02:51.742 post divorce to say power, etc. Anyway, she's talking about 0:02:51.782 --> 0:02:54.222 this divorce in this interview in Vogue, and I think 0:02:54.262 --> 0:02:56.502 this is something that a lot of women feel. She said, 0:02:57.062 --> 0:02:59.341 I felt marriage was a romantic thing. I thought it 0:02:59.382 --> 0:03:03.342 would ultimately be a partnership. I didn't think about shared labor. Because, 0:03:03.462 --> 0:03:05.702 in the immortal words of Cardi b I don't cook, 0:03:05.742 --> 0:03:07.542 I don't clean. Let me show you how I got 0:03:07.582 --> 0:03:10.341 this ring. That is a line from Acardi, these song friends. 0:03:10.702 --> 0:03:12.422 But what she means is she didn't cook. She didn't, 0:03:13.142 --> 0:03:15.782 But after having a child, I found myself accepting what 0:03:15.862 --> 0:03:17.982 was happening. I never cooked, and suddenly I was not 0:03:18.022 --> 0:03:21.181 just cooking but also being the breadwinner while simultaneously organizing 0:03:21.181 --> 0:03:24.142 our social schedule and being the primary caretaker of our child. 0:03:24.542 --> 0:03:27.142 I'm really interested in the decisions we make in our lives, 0:03:27.181 --> 0:03:29.702 particularly as women, because by the end of my marriage, 0:03:29.702 --> 0:03:33.822 my world was suddenly extremely small and less important, less valuable. 0:03:34.062 --> 0:03:36.702 It was a slow devolution from oh, we're partners and 0:03:36.742 --> 0:03:39.782 this person respects all that I'm doing, to feeling like 0:03:39.942 --> 0:03:44.622 a possession. I think Emrada speaks the truth there, and 0:03:44.702 --> 0:03:45.982 a lot of women would relate. 0:03:46.462 --> 0:03:49.342 I agree, she's one of us. I've always that's one 0:03:49.382 --> 0:03:49.742 of us. 0:03:49.862 --> 0:03:50.342 I knew it. 0:03:50.502 --> 0:03:54.542 She's absolutely one of us. I liked how she talked 0:03:54.982 --> 0:03:59.902 about almost how invisibly that transition took place, the transition 0:03:59.982 --> 0:04:01.782 from wife to mother. There was a question in there 0:04:01.822 --> 0:04:05.422 about what the patriarchy has more of a hold over, 0:04:05.702 --> 0:04:08.542 like whether it's actually the transition to wife that is 0:04:08.582 --> 0:04:11.022 what makes you submissive. But I think that she was 0:04:11.102 --> 0:04:13.102 right in saying no, no, no, it's the transition to 0:04:13.182 --> 0:04:17.702 mother that totally undoes you. And that she was saying 0:04:17.741 --> 0:04:20.142 as well, she was still making all the money. It's 0:04:20.181 --> 0:04:23.902 not like she was the person who was reliant on 0:04:23.942 --> 0:04:28.901 her husband for income, but someone had to cook for 0:04:28.981 --> 0:04:32.261 the child, and so she did. It reminded me of 0:04:32.262 --> 0:04:34.621 this episode. I listened to of the Diary of a 0:04:34.662 --> 0:04:38.821 CEO recently with gender expert doctor Richard Reeves, and he 0:04:39.101 --> 0:04:41.662 said this about marriage and child rearing. 0:04:42.022 --> 0:04:43.981 My wife and I had this rule. Well, first of all, 0:04:44.022 --> 0:04:45.342 we said we're gonna have kids, We're going to raise 0:04:45.342 --> 0:04:47.182 them ourselves. We're not going to have kids, and then 0:04:47.541 --> 0:04:50.541 literally have full time nanny from nannies and night nanny's 0:04:50.582 --> 0:04:53.782 and really, but we also both want to pursue careers. 0:04:53.981 --> 0:04:56.101 And so what that meant was we had a rule, 0:04:56.101 --> 0:04:58.142 which is, you can't have two big jobs at the 0:04:58.181 --> 0:05:00.662 same time. Now, a big job in our case wasn't 0:05:00.702 --> 0:05:03.981 necessarily a high earning job. It was a demanding job. 0:05:04.181 --> 0:05:05.701 It was a job that would be difficult for you 0:05:05.741 --> 0:05:07.301 to just say I got to go my kids sick 0:05:07.381 --> 0:05:09.741 or I need to stay home today or whatever job 0:05:09.741 --> 0:05:11.381 that would make that hard. So, for example, when I 0:05:11.381 --> 0:05:13.541 was in government, in the UK, I was working number ten. 0:05:13.621 --> 0:05:15.741 That was a big job. It was not a big salary, 0:05:15.821 --> 0:05:17.382 but it was a big job. And so my wife 0:05:17.462 --> 0:05:19.222 did a more much more flexible job so that she 0:05:19.301 --> 0:05:20.741 could be the one who could stay at home kind 0:05:20.741 --> 0:05:22.421 of et cetera. And then when she was a partner 0:05:22.501 --> 0:05:25.701 at a major consultancy, I was at home. I was writing, 0:05:25.702 --> 0:05:27.101 and I was doing all that. And so you have 0:05:27.142 --> 0:05:29.261 to have one of you that's like, I got it, 0:05:29.301 --> 0:05:31.702 I got the kids. I'm primary person with the kids 0:05:31.702 --> 0:05:35.222 because otherwise trying to both have big jobs and raise 0:05:35.262 --> 0:05:35.701 the kids. 0:05:36.821 --> 0:05:41.941 Firstly, at the little giggle that he gave when he 0:05:41.981 --> 0:05:46.301 said having someone else to reach out children, that broke 0:05:46.342 --> 0:05:47.621 my heart. I really didn't like that. 0:05:47.702 --> 0:05:50.381 The man without kids and the man whose wife stayed 0:05:50.381 --> 0:05:51.462 home and looked after his kids. 0:05:51.541 --> 0:05:53.741 Imagine someone to look after your kids. 0:05:54.381 --> 0:05:57.981 And the second thing I thought is how idealistic to 0:05:58.101 --> 0:06:01.342 think we can't both have big jobs dot dot dot 0:06:01.902 --> 0:06:05.221 at the same time. It's such a gas lighty way 0:06:05.861 --> 0:06:08.181 to keep someone going. Yours can be flexible for the 0:06:08.222 --> 0:06:11.502 moment while. And I'm not saying that he's necessarily doing this, 0:06:11.662 --> 0:06:13.861 but what's really difficult for women is that when the 0:06:13.941 --> 0:06:16.981 kids are little and you've maybe taken some maternity leave, 0:06:17.541 --> 0:06:20.261 or you're maybe making decisions not what's best for you, 0:06:20.301 --> 0:06:23.662 but what's best for the family, and the husband or 0:06:23.662 --> 0:06:25.981 the man is going and staying at his kind of 0:06:26.142 --> 0:06:30.382 not so flexible job. How often does that really switch? Yeah, 0:06:30.741 --> 0:06:32.782 And how hard is it to look at each other 0:06:32.821 --> 0:06:34.741 and go, hey, you know how you've climbed the latter 0:06:34.782 --> 0:06:38.861 seven spots and I've gone down four. Here's an idea, 0:06:38.902 --> 0:06:40.861 here's my turn. I'm going to make one third of 0:06:40.861 --> 0:06:44.222 the money you do so that you can work in 0:06:44.262 --> 0:06:45.901 a completely different It doesn't happen. 0:06:46.181 --> 0:06:49.541 It can't happen one hundred percent, right, because this theory 0:06:49.582 --> 0:06:51.302 has been around a long time. It's about having a 0:06:51.381 --> 0:06:54.022 lead parent. You know, you're both pretty equal, but one 0:06:54.061 --> 0:06:56.181 of you is the lead parent at home, and the 0:06:56.222 --> 0:06:58.662 idea being that the person who's not the lead parent 0:06:58.702 --> 0:07:00.861 can lean into the career, and then the batch on 0:07:00.981 --> 0:07:03.262 can be passed and the lead parent can lean into 0:07:03.301 --> 0:07:05.941 their career. Now, in an ideal world, it's a bloody 0:07:05.981 --> 0:07:09.101 great idea, but as you've already pointed out, Jesse, how 0:07:09.142 --> 0:07:12.582 often that actually happen in practice? Because the problem is 0:07:12.582 --> 0:07:14.462 is you earn a certain amount of money that pays 0:07:14.502 --> 0:07:17.142 for your life, your house, your mortgage, all that stuff, 0:07:17.381 --> 0:07:19.901 and then if you suddenly switch it, how does that work? 0:07:20.182 --> 0:07:23.782 And then also as another hard done by supermodel found 0:07:23.821 --> 0:07:26.422 out Giselle, remember how when she broke up with Tom 0:07:26.462 --> 0:07:29.622 Brady and they'd had their kids, she said, I kept 0:07:29.622 --> 0:07:33.221 waiting for my turn because he kept saying, don't worry, darling, 0:07:33.262 --> 0:07:35.662 I'm going to retire soon and then you can get 0:07:35.742 --> 0:07:38.462 back into your career full bore. And she was like, 0:07:38.902 --> 0:07:40.982 funnily enough, my turn never came. 0:07:41.582 --> 0:07:44.342 Remember here retired, and then like two months later he's like, 0:07:44.582 --> 0:07:46.462 I'm making a comeback and she left him. 0:07:46.582 --> 0:07:49.021 And the stats as well about if a woman even 0:07:49.062 --> 0:07:51.302 does go back, let's say she is doing the big job, 0:07:51.821 --> 0:07:54.862 she's more than likely also doing the other jobs, the 0:07:54.941 --> 0:07:57.062 other stuff, for the cleaning and the social schedules and 0:07:57.102 --> 0:07:58.502 the cooking and all of that stuff. 0:07:58.502 --> 0:08:01.821 I did. But I'm not the lead parent. Brent's the 0:08:01.862 --> 0:08:05.502 lead parent, has he always been most of the time. 0:08:05.982 --> 0:08:10.622 So I agree for ordinary people, you know, and a 0:08:10.622 --> 0:08:14.062 lot of these people talking in Vogue and everything, they're 0:08:14.062 --> 0:08:16.542 not necessarily ordinary people. I agree with the statement that 0:08:16.582 --> 0:08:20.141 you can't both have really big jobs and still be 0:08:20.182 --> 0:08:22.901 hands on at home. Well, not for most ordinary people, 0:08:22.941 --> 0:08:24.941 because it wouldn't have worked. 0:08:24.662 --> 0:08:26.581 In math, doesn't work in my house. 0:08:26.702 --> 0:08:29.862 It wouldn't have worked if we both had had big jobs. 0:08:30.102 --> 0:08:32.542 I mean big job sounds, but you know I had 0:08:32.622 --> 0:08:35.142 more of a demanding job, let's say, and as he 0:08:35.182 --> 0:08:37.742 puts it, I think that's a really good description of it. 0:08:37.742 --> 0:08:40.742 It's not necessarily about the money, although it usually is too. 0:08:40.782 --> 0:08:42.702 But the job that isn't like I can work from 0:08:42.702 --> 0:08:44.742 home for three hours this afternoon, I can call him sick, 0:08:44.862 --> 0:08:46.742 or I don't have to travel or like. The job 0:08:46.822 --> 0:08:49.942 that's more flexible is the job that lends itself more 0:08:49.982 --> 0:08:52.342 to being lead parent, and in our house, that's always 0:08:52.382 --> 0:08:56.102 been Brent's role, right. I think if Brent had also 0:08:56.262 --> 0:08:59.142 been trying to do a really full on job, we 0:08:59.142 --> 0:09:00.222 wouldn't have been able to do it. 0:09:00.302 --> 0:09:03.982 No, I've been saying to Luca for a year, you 0:09:04.062 --> 0:09:08.862 can't have to full on massive jobs. And he says, yes, 0:09:08.902 --> 0:09:11.462 you can. Look at my parents maya, can you help shit? 0:09:12.622 --> 0:09:17.422 Yeah, but I reckon there's a and putting this to 0:09:17.502 --> 0:09:21.062 Mia obviously for her conversation. They're the bosses. 0:09:21.102 --> 0:09:24.502 It's different, so different. So like I remember when I first. 0:09:24.222 --> 0:09:26.262 Came to work at Mama Mia a long time ago. 0:09:26.862 --> 0:09:29.862 Mia left the office at two every day she'd work again. Yeah, yeah, 0:09:30.022 --> 0:09:31.982 don't get me wrong, I'm not calling you lazier. I 0:09:32.062 --> 0:09:35.062 just sounds like it was great, not that it would 0:09:35.062 --> 0:09:37.702 not that it would be lazy if you have said that. 0:09:37.742 --> 0:09:40.662 But I remember because I was looking, obviously looking for 0:09:40.742 --> 0:09:44.022 models of how things worked. Mia was in early news 0:09:44.102 --> 0:09:46.422 conference because in those days it was Mia was writing 0:09:46.422 --> 0:09:48.262 for the website, doing all that stuff. She would leave 0:09:48.302 --> 0:09:51.142 it too, kid, pick up, sort things out at home, 0:09:51.182 --> 0:09:53.662 and then she'd be back online it was Skype or 0:09:53.662 --> 0:09:57.022 whatever in those days, like later in the afternoon. You 0:09:57.022 --> 0:09:59.222 were able to do that because you're the boss. 0:09:59.502 --> 0:09:59.742 Yep. 0:09:59.942 --> 0:10:05.222 So this is why women will often sacrifice money for flexibility, 0:10:05.342 --> 0:10:08.022 because even if you work more hours, if they are 0:10:08.102 --> 0:10:12.022 your hours to decide when you work them, it gives 0:10:12.022 --> 0:10:14.502 you a degree of freedom and less stress. 0:10:14.902 --> 0:10:15.142 Right. 0:10:15.702 --> 0:10:19.342 What I find really hard to untangle about this. The 0:10:19.462 --> 0:10:22.662 default thing is to blame men and go it's not fair. 0:10:22.982 --> 0:10:27.742 Why won't men do more? Having employed literally hundreds of 0:10:27.742 --> 0:10:31.382 women and worked with probably a thousand women over my career. 0:10:32.782 --> 0:10:35.262 This is a generalization, but it has been the case 0:10:35.262 --> 0:10:39.342 in the majority of situations I've seen. The men don't 0:10:39.382 --> 0:10:43.342 necessarily want to work part time, but the women do so. 0:10:43.662 --> 0:10:47.622 Whether it's because we genuinely want to be with our 0:10:47.702 --> 0:10:49.702 kids more, and this is what I can't untangle even 0:10:49.702 --> 0:10:52.942 in myself. How much is that we have a desire 0:10:53.222 --> 0:10:55.902 to be with our kids more, and how much is 0:10:56.062 --> 0:10:59.942 that we know that society and we've internalized society's expectations 0:10:59.942 --> 0:11:02.502 that we should be with our kids. 0:11:02.262 --> 0:11:05.582 More, choices made them so we feel less, we feel 0:11:05.662 --> 0:11:06.742 less guilty. 0:11:06.982 --> 0:11:09.982 A few things going on the part time prefer Maybe 0:11:09.982 --> 0:11:13.622 that's because of the amount of labor going on in 0:11:13.662 --> 0:11:18.222 your personal life that bleeds. That's like, if you are 0:11:18.622 --> 0:11:23.942 cooking and picking up and doctor's appointments, cleaning and all 0:11:23.942 --> 0:11:27.742 of the things, then it is very difficult to fit 0:11:27.782 --> 0:11:28.942 a full time job around that. 0:11:29.022 --> 0:11:30.702 Yeah, but me is saying that could be a man 0:11:30.742 --> 0:11:31.142 doing that. 0:11:31.502 --> 0:11:33.982 Yes, I know, But if the woman is already doing 0:11:33.982 --> 0:11:35.742 those things, whether or not she's working full time or 0:11:35.782 --> 0:11:39.022 part time, I think that she's then making that sacrifice 0:11:39.222 --> 0:11:41.782 because of what she's already got on during the week, 0:11:41.822 --> 0:11:42.742 If that makes sense. You know. 0:11:42.782 --> 0:11:45.022 But what happens then, and this is what Emrad is 0:11:45.022 --> 0:11:47.022 talking about, right, and I remember writing about this and 0:11:47.062 --> 0:11:48.542 I give the marriage a year, is that This is 0:11:48.542 --> 0:11:50.382 how it plays out in a lot of ordinary houses. 0:11:50.982 --> 0:11:54.462 Baby comes, you take maternity leave. It might be six months, 0:11:54.462 --> 0:11:56.542 it might be a year, it might be whatever. During 0:11:56.582 --> 0:11:59.902 that time, you are the lead parent, and you are 0:11:59.942 --> 0:12:02.702 also cooking dinner and whatever for maybe the first time ever, 0:12:02.782 --> 0:12:05.062 maybe up until that day when you went on matt leave, 0:12:05.462 --> 0:12:07.702 he was cooking dinner. Some nights you were cooking dinner. 0:12:07.702 --> 0:12:09.662 Some nights he was doing the washing. Some days are 0:12:09.702 --> 0:12:12.382 doing the washing, some days equal split, like Emrada says. 0:12:12.742 --> 0:12:15.502 Then you're at home, so it's like I'm looking after 0:12:15.502 --> 0:12:17.982 the baby and I'm doing the housy things. And then 0:12:18.022 --> 0:12:20.462 what often happens is you go back to work and 0:12:20.542 --> 0:12:23.542 somehow all those jobs still stick to you. While I 0:12:23.582 --> 0:12:25.262 was cooking dinner and I know how to do it, 0:12:25.302 --> 0:12:26.942 and I know what the kid's going to eat, and 0:12:26.982 --> 0:12:29.302 I know how to do that, and I've organized those things, 0:12:29.342 --> 0:12:31.942 so it's just and then somehow you keep doing them, 0:12:32.022 --> 0:12:33.662 keep doing them, keep doing them. But then you've also 0:12:33.702 --> 0:12:36.862 got your job, and it's like an insidious and insidious 0:12:36.902 --> 0:12:39.662 sounds too sinister, because whenever you talk about this, I 0:12:39.702 --> 0:12:41.262 want to make it really clear that I know what 0:12:41.302 --> 0:12:43.462 a privilege it is to look after kids. I'm not 0:12:43.502 --> 0:12:46.902 saying that, but I'm just talking about doing the two jobs, 0:12:46.902 --> 0:12:48.182 the three jobs, the four jobs. 0:12:48.342 --> 0:12:49.141 That a privilege? 0:12:49.262 --> 0:12:51.022 Well, I think it is if you you know it 0:12:51.062 --> 0:12:52.382 is for many. 0:12:51.982 --> 0:12:54.381 It is and I think it's twofold right with the 0:12:54.382 --> 0:12:55.622 privilege every day. 0:12:55.142 --> 0:12:58.582 But when you end up doing all the things and 0:12:58.622 --> 0:13:00.982 that creep happens. That is what Emrada is talking about, 0:13:00.982 --> 0:13:03.622 where suddenly you're like, hold on, I'm back at work, 0:13:03.702 --> 0:13:06.542 but I'm still doing all the things that we And 0:13:06.582 --> 0:13:07.982 the thing is if you have a baby and then 0:13:07.982 --> 0:13:09.942 you have a gap, and then you have another baby, whatever, 0:13:10.262 --> 0:13:12.742 then that can be a period of a few years 0:13:12.822 --> 0:13:15.742 where you were lead parent by default, and then it's 0:13:15.902 --> 0:13:18.142 very hard to undo it, just like it's very hard 0:13:18.142 --> 0:13:21.542 to undo this job. Flip that, and is this of 0:13:21.542 --> 0:13:22.702 a CEO thing. 0:13:22.542 --> 0:13:25.662 That happens with battles, right, And I've I've had this 0:13:25.702 --> 0:13:28.022 where I've laid in bed at night and gone, do 0:13:28.102 --> 0:13:30.022 I fight this battle? Do I fight this battle? And 0:13:30.022 --> 0:13:31.942 there are eight hundred of the battles that you kind 0:13:31.982 --> 0:13:34.302 of go. How did this fall on my plate? How 0:13:34.342 --> 0:13:36.022 did this? I remember saying to a friend early on. 0:13:36.182 --> 0:13:38.381 She said to me a few months in, I was 0:13:38.422 --> 0:13:42.542 expressing some frustration and she said, has your husband ever 0:13:42.582 --> 0:13:45.782 folded a onesie? And I was like, oh wow, the 0:13:45.822 --> 0:13:49.782 things that defaulted to the woman, Like why would that 0:13:49.982 --> 0:13:51.942 default to me? And that's not saying and this was 0:13:51.942 --> 0:13:55.342 coming from us. I yeah, exactly, how does he think 0:13:55.382 --> 0:13:57.342 the clothes and wherever bored or the. 0:13:57.382 --> 0:13:59.302 Every time she grows out of clothes, has he ever 0:13:59.302 --> 0:14:00.102 gone or she needs? 0:14:00.222 --> 0:14:00.942 Yeah? 0:14:01.182 --> 0:14:03.342 So there's just strange jobs where like, you know, I've 0:14:03.382 --> 0:14:05.622 been with women and we've looked at each other and gone, oh, 0:14:05.622 --> 0:14:07.902 so you're going away next week? Has he started packing 0:14:07.902 --> 0:14:11.862 the sick case? Like just very very specific gender jobs 0:14:11.862 --> 0:14:14.102 that you go This isn't our dynamic, so. 0:14:14.182 --> 0:14:16.022 Pack the suitcase for who the bad baby? 0:14:16.102 --> 0:14:16.302 Oh? 0:14:16.462 --> 0:14:18.262 So it's sort of like the man and this is 0:14:18.302 --> 0:14:20.742 I was literally having this conversation on the weekend. This 0:14:20.942 --> 0:14:23.822 argument happens in all heterosexual couples. They're going away and 0:14:23.862 --> 0:14:25.902 the man tries to convince a family that they can 0:14:25.942 --> 0:14:28.102 go away with a carry on bag, and you look 0:14:28.102 --> 0:14:31.142 at the man and go, You've never ever packed a 0:14:31.182 --> 0:14:32.182 bag for a baby. 0:14:32.262 --> 0:14:32.982 You had a period. 0:14:33.142 --> 0:14:35.942 Well, I don't understand what needs to go three clothes, 0:14:36.302 --> 0:14:37.902 and so I think that you lay They're going to 0:14:38.022 --> 0:14:39.422 fight this fight? Do I fight this fight? 0:14:39.462 --> 0:14:41.142 Do I? You have to fight the fight's Jesse, you 0:14:41.222 --> 0:14:43.182 have to fight the fucking fights or you are packing 0:14:43.222 --> 0:14:44.862 all the bags for the next twenty years. Is that 0:14:44.902 --> 0:14:45.342 what you want? 0:14:45.822 --> 0:14:48.022 But then society do you divide and conquer? And I 0:14:48.062 --> 0:14:50.422 want to say back to me and Jason for a second. 0:14:51.142 --> 0:14:53.742 The other difference is in the first part of our 0:14:53.742 --> 0:14:56.942 relationship when we just had one child, I was working 0:14:57.182 --> 0:15:00.022 in a big job. I was employed in magazines and 0:15:00.142 --> 0:15:04.742 Jason had his own business, and that was really challenging 0:15:04.822 --> 0:15:06.702 because we were pulling in different directions. So it was 0:15:06.742 --> 0:15:09.542 always a competition for whose job and whose time was 0:15:09.662 --> 0:15:12.382 more important, and also who was the most tired. I mean, 0:15:12.422 --> 0:15:14.622 the title in picks is something that you have always. 0:15:14.662 --> 0:15:17.502 It's like who's the most tired. The reason also that 0:15:17.502 --> 0:15:19.862 we were able to do it in the last seventeen 0:15:19.942 --> 0:15:22.142 years of having kids, which is really our last two 0:15:22.262 --> 0:15:25.422 kids and most of our eldest child's life was because 0:15:25.422 --> 0:15:28.342 we were working together, so we were pulling in the 0:15:28.342 --> 0:15:31.302 same direction. And would we've ever been able to build 0:15:31.622 --> 0:15:34.182 Mama Maya just one of us while the other one 0:15:34.222 --> 0:15:36.102 had a big job, or while the other one was 0:15:36.102 --> 0:15:40.062 building another business. Absolutely not. So we have very much 0:15:40.102 --> 0:15:42.742 divided and conquered. And I've often said, like so much 0:15:42.822 --> 0:15:47.022 of the mental load in our life is taken by jas, 0:15:47.262 --> 0:15:51.822 like really traditional splits, right. And also he's always done 0:15:51.902 --> 0:15:54.542 like dentists and haircuts. I don't know why, and I've 0:15:54.542 --> 0:15:57.702 done medical things with the kids, but I do the 0:15:57.742 --> 0:16:00.582 emotional a lot of the emotional stuff. But even now, 0:16:00.662 --> 0:16:03.622 like we've got teenagers, it's very split. 0:16:03.982 --> 0:16:04.942 It's really split. 0:16:04.982 --> 0:16:08.142 But it also can be because we work together and 0:16:08.182 --> 0:16:09.502 we're in charge of our own now. 0:16:10.222 --> 0:16:12.822 The other thing that I noticed about what am writer, 0:16:12.862 --> 0:16:14.702 because we can't talk about her without me picking out 0:16:14.702 --> 0:16:17.382 something that I didn't like about what she said, there 0:16:17.422 --> 0:16:20.462 was a quote about divorce as liberation, and that's what 0:16:20.462 --> 0:16:23.982 they were sort of talking about, and I just I've 0:16:24.022 --> 0:16:29.222 been reading a lot about how divorces liberation is a 0:16:29.222 --> 0:16:31.302 bit of a luxury belief, is a bit of a 0:16:31.342 --> 0:16:34.142 luxury idea that for someone like m writer who has 0:16:34.142 --> 0:16:38.422 the means and who divorce won't financially cripple her. That 0:16:38.582 --> 0:16:42.502 is very different to you know, millions and millions of 0:16:42.582 --> 0:16:46.982 Americans who the decision to divorce and Australians who the 0:16:47.022 --> 0:16:50.822 decision to divorce has you know, financial consequences or a 0:16:50.862 --> 0:16:53.502 woman can't do that. So I even the book that 0:16:53.502 --> 0:16:55.542 they were talking about, and there's all this literature coming 0:16:55.622 --> 0:16:57.822 out which is really about empowering women to divorce, and 0:16:57.862 --> 0:16:59.782 I know that is a solution to some of this, 0:16:59.902 --> 0:17:00.782 and we talk about. 0:17:00.662 --> 0:17:02.822 But Jesse, don't you think it comes down to the 0:17:02.822 --> 0:17:05.222 man you are divorcing and the dynamic here are divorcing 0:17:05.262 --> 0:17:08.421 because if I got a divorce, my life would be 0:17:08.502 --> 0:17:11.742 so much harder. But Amrita's point, and I've got friends 0:17:11.742 --> 0:17:13.741 who've also said, my life is so much easier and 0:17:13.782 --> 0:17:17.101 it was liberating because they were with someone, but they 0:17:17.101 --> 0:17:17.942 were still doing all. 0:17:17.821 --> 0:17:20.422 The work and often they're looking after the guy too 0:17:20.502 --> 0:17:23.061 and felt resentful exactly. And so the other piece about 0:17:23.061 --> 0:17:27.262 that is these two ideas are linked because you're very 0:17:27.341 --> 0:17:30.742 right that divorces a liberation is a luxury belief, because 0:17:30.782 --> 0:17:34.861 divorce is actually statistically very bad for women in terms 0:17:34.861 --> 0:17:37.821 of money. But one of the ways in which you 0:17:37.861 --> 0:17:40.341 get more freedom to live the life you want is 0:17:40.381 --> 0:17:44.502 to be financially independent, and that is probably the most 0:17:44.542 --> 0:17:47.542 important kind of independence you can have. And you are 0:17:47.581 --> 0:17:50.621 not financially independent if you have given up your career 0:17:51.101 --> 0:17:53.901 to fold onesies. And I know it's saying that is 0:17:53.942 --> 0:17:56.222 like a controversial thing to say, and I know exactly 0:17:56.262 --> 0:17:57.821 who's out there in the world who's going to be 0:17:57.821 --> 0:18:00.621 writing me and angry now tomorrow, because I know that 0:18:00.702 --> 0:18:03.542 parenting is much more complicated than that. The decisions you 0:18:03.621 --> 0:18:06.061 make in your life, as time goes on, you can 0:18:06.061 --> 0:18:07.862 look back at them with some distance and you can 0:18:07.942 --> 0:18:09.982 go there were things about that that were great, and 0:18:10.022 --> 0:18:11.901 there were things about that that weren't. And I'm certainly 0:18:11.982 --> 0:18:14.821 at that point now with my kids in that they're 0:18:14.861 --> 0:18:17.661