1 00:00:10,622 --> 00:00:13,342 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 2 00:00:13,822 --> 00:00:17,182 Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:17,222 --> 00:00:20,622 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello, out louders. It's 4 00:00:20,662 --> 00:00:23,142 Speaker 2: a public holiday today, so we're bringing you something a 5 00:00:23,222 --> 00:00:26,342 Speaker 2: little bit different than your usual Monday Mamma maya out 6 00:00:26,342 --> 00:00:27,062 Speaker 2: loud episode. 7 00:00:27,262 --> 00:00:31,422 Speaker 3: Did you know that January is widely considered divorce month? 8 00:00:31,462 --> 00:00:32,302 Speaker 4: Have you got an announcement? 9 00:00:32,382 --> 00:00:34,542 Speaker 3: Jesse, No, I don't do you Holly can't get. 10 00:00:34,462 --> 00:00:36,382 Speaker 1: Divorced because she's not married, because she's a hoe and 11 00:00:36,422 --> 00:00:39,821 Speaker 1: not the gardening type. There was a piece written for 12 00:00:39,862 --> 00:00:42,702 Speaker 1: Mamma mea a title January is Divorce Month, and it 13 00:00:42,742 --> 00:00:45,742 Speaker 1: talks about why relationships particularly fall apart at this time 14 00:00:45,782 --> 00:00:47,942 Speaker 1: of year. I don't know if anyone has ever tried 15 00:00:47,982 --> 00:00:50,702 Speaker 1: to get an appointment with a marriage counselor or any 16 00:00:50,742 --> 00:00:52,542 Speaker 1: kind of therapist in January or February. 17 00:00:52,822 --> 00:00:54,342 Speaker 4: Very tricky. For speaking from. 18 00:00:54,302 --> 00:00:57,742 Speaker 2: Experience, they say it's They think it's probably a combination 19 00:00:58,062 --> 00:01:02,382 Speaker 2: of holiday financial pressure, spending too much time together and 20 00:01:02,462 --> 00:01:04,342 Speaker 2: maybe with family and in laws too when you're just 21 00:01:04,422 --> 00:01:07,462 Speaker 2: like I'm done with that, or conflicting parenting styles over 22 00:01:07,462 --> 00:01:10,702 Speaker 2: the school holidays. Whatever it is, all bad in. 23 00:01:10,742 --> 00:01:14,822 Speaker 3: Changular, there are likely many out louders who are nodding 24 00:01:14,862 --> 00:01:17,182 Speaker 3: in recognition or have someone in their life who is 25 00:01:17,222 --> 00:01:19,782 Speaker 3: going through it. So we thought today we would share 26 00:01:19,902 --> 00:01:23,902 Speaker 3: a chat that could come in handy. In this episode, 27 00:01:24,102 --> 00:01:27,422 Speaker 3: we unpack some words from a celebrity who has gone 28 00:01:27,462 --> 00:01:28,622 Speaker 3: through a divorce. 29 00:01:28,902 --> 00:01:32,101 Speaker 1: It's actually a subscriber episode, but we thought because these 30 00:01:32,102 --> 00:01:34,942 Speaker 1: are serious times, we might bring it out from behind 31 00:01:34,942 --> 00:01:37,422 Speaker 1: the paywall in case it helps any out louders who 32 00:01:37,422 --> 00:01:38,822 Speaker 1: are listening and maybe going through it. 33 00:01:39,062 --> 00:01:40,342 Speaker 4: Enjoy out Louders. 34 00:01:40,342 --> 00:01:41,822 Speaker 2: I'm going to bring up a name we haven't mentioned 35 00:01:41,862 --> 00:01:43,222 Speaker 2: for a while, and some of you might go, oh, no, 36 00:01:43,302 --> 00:01:45,462 Speaker 2: they're going to talk about her again, But she's one 37 00:01:45,502 --> 00:01:48,342 Speaker 2: of our out loud family, one of our extended family 38 00:01:48,422 --> 00:01:50,182 Speaker 2: of hyperfixation celebrities. 39 00:01:51,302 --> 00:01:53,782 Speaker 1: Hi, guys, it's Emily Radikowski. 40 00:01:53,422 --> 00:01:58,022 Speaker 2: Em Rada as she has always known here, model, prominent feminist. 41 00:01:57,942 --> 00:01:58,022 Speaker 1: Or. 42 00:01:59,862 --> 00:02:01,422 Speaker 4: She nemesis of mine. 43 00:02:03,382 --> 00:02:05,902 Speaker 2: She has no idea that she's me as nemesis, but 44 00:02:06,062 --> 00:02:09,142 Speaker 2: you know, anyway, she gave a big interview in Vogue 45 00:02:09,181 --> 00:02:12,062 Speaker 2: recently or did she do the interview? I can't remember. Anyway, 46 00:02:12,222 --> 00:02:13,982 Speaker 2: it was like her and an author and they were 47 00:02:14,022 --> 00:02:16,782 Speaker 2: doing a conversation and it was all about divorce. And 48 00:02:16,822 --> 00:02:19,382 Speaker 2: the reason I'm bringing it is because I think that 49 00:02:19,462 --> 00:02:22,222 Speaker 2: she said something that is actually very relatable. 50 00:02:22,262 --> 00:02:24,862 Speaker 4: Does she need our help because she's done a segment? 51 00:02:24,982 --> 00:02:27,702 Speaker 2: It's like that, right, So A you might remember that 52 00:02:27,742 --> 00:02:29,782 Speaker 2: a while she got divorced in twenty twenty two, she 53 00:02:29,862 --> 00:02:32,661 Speaker 2: had been married to this guy with a silly name. 54 00:02:32,742 --> 00:02:34,942 Speaker 2: No offense to anyone who's listening to this, who's called 55 00:02:34,982 --> 00:02:40,142 Speaker 2: Sebastian Bear McClard. Your name isn't silly, but this man's 56 00:02:40,222 --> 00:02:43,022 Speaker 2: is silly. And they got divorced in twenty twenty two 57 00:02:43,062 --> 00:02:44,781 Speaker 2: after four years of marriage. And they share a son. 58 00:02:44,902 --> 00:02:48,462 Speaker 2: And then Emrada posted her diamond rings that she'd repurposed 59 00:02:48,462 --> 00:02:51,742 Speaker 2: post divorce to say power, etc. Anyway, she's talking about 60 00:02:51,782 --> 00:02:54,222 Speaker 2: this divorce in this interview in Vogue, and I think 61 00:02:54,262 --> 00:02:56,502 Speaker 2: this is something that a lot of women feel. She said, 62 00:02:57,062 --> 00:02:59,341 Speaker 2: I felt marriage was a romantic thing. I thought it 63 00:02:59,382 --> 00:03:03,342 Speaker 2: would ultimately be a partnership. I didn't think about shared labor. Because, 64 00:03:03,462 --> 00:03:05,702 Speaker 2: in the immortal words of Cardi b I don't cook, 65 00:03:05,742 --> 00:03:07,542 Speaker 2: I don't clean. Let me show you how I got 66 00:03:07,582 --> 00:03:10,341 Speaker 2: this ring. That is a line from Acardi, these song friends. 67 00:03:10,702 --> 00:03:12,422 Speaker 2: But what she means is she didn't cook. She didn't, 68 00:03:13,142 --> 00:03:15,782 Speaker 2: But after having a child, I found myself accepting what 69 00:03:15,862 --> 00:03:17,982 Speaker 2: was happening. I never cooked, and suddenly I was not 70 00:03:18,022 --> 00:03:21,181 Speaker 2: just cooking but also being the breadwinner while simultaneously organizing 71 00:03:21,181 --> 00:03:24,142 Speaker 2: our social schedule and being the primary caretaker of our child. 72 00:03:24,542 --> 00:03:27,142 Speaker 2: I'm really interested in the decisions we make in our lives, 73 00:03:27,181 --> 00:03:29,702 Speaker 2: particularly as women, because by the end of my marriage, 74 00:03:29,702 --> 00:03:33,822 Speaker 2: my world was suddenly extremely small and less important, less valuable. 75 00:03:34,062 --> 00:03:36,702 Speaker 2: It was a slow devolution from oh, we're partners and 76 00:03:36,742 --> 00:03:39,782 Speaker 2: this person respects all that I'm doing, to feeling like 77 00:03:39,942 --> 00:03:44,622 Speaker 2: a possession. I think Emrada speaks the truth there, and 78 00:03:44,702 --> 00:03:45,982 Speaker 2: a lot of women would relate. 79 00:03:46,462 --> 00:03:49,342 Speaker 3: I agree, she's one of us. I've always that's one 80 00:03:49,382 --> 00:03:49,742 Speaker 3: of us. 81 00:03:49,862 --> 00:03:50,342 Speaker 1: I knew it. 82 00:03:50,502 --> 00:03:54,542 Speaker 3: She's absolutely one of us. I liked how she talked 83 00:03:54,982 --> 00:03:59,902 Speaker 3: about almost how invisibly that transition took place, the transition 84 00:03:59,982 --> 00:04:01,782 Speaker 3: from wife to mother. There was a question in there 85 00:04:01,822 --> 00:04:05,422 Speaker 3: about what the patriarchy has more of a hold over, 86 00:04:05,702 --> 00:04:08,542 Speaker 3: like whether it's actually the transition to wife that is 87 00:04:08,582 --> 00:04:11,022 Speaker 3: what makes you submissive. But I think that she was 88 00:04:11,102 --> 00:04:13,102 Speaker 3: right in saying no, no, no, it's the transition to 89 00:04:13,182 --> 00:04:17,702 Speaker 3: mother that totally undoes you. And that she was saying 90 00:04:17,741 --> 00:04:20,142 Speaker 3: as well, she was still making all the money. It's 91 00:04:20,181 --> 00:04:23,902 Speaker 3: not like she was the person who was reliant on 92 00:04:23,942 --> 00:04:28,901 Speaker 3: her husband for income, but someone had to cook for 93 00:04:28,981 --> 00:04:32,261 Speaker 3: the child, and so she did. It reminded me of 94 00:04:32,262 --> 00:04:34,621 Speaker 3: this episode. I listened to of the Diary of a 95 00:04:34,662 --> 00:04:38,821 Speaker 3: CEO recently with gender expert doctor Richard Reeves, and he 96 00:04:39,101 --> 00:04:41,662 Speaker 3: said this about marriage and child rearing. 97 00:04:42,022 --> 00:04:43,981 Speaker 5: My wife and I had this rule. Well, first of all, 98 00:04:44,022 --> 00:04:45,342 Speaker 5: we said we're gonna have kids, We're going to raise 99 00:04:45,342 --> 00:04:47,182 Speaker 5: them ourselves. We're not going to have kids, and then 100 00:04:47,541 --> 00:04:50,541 Speaker 5: literally have full time nanny from nannies and night nanny's 101 00:04:50,582 --> 00:04:53,782 Speaker 5: and really, but we also both want to pursue careers. 102 00:04:53,981 --> 00:04:56,101 Speaker 5: And so what that meant was we had a rule, 103 00:04:56,101 --> 00:04:58,142 Speaker 5: which is, you can't have two big jobs at the 104 00:04:58,181 --> 00:05:00,662 Speaker 5: same time. Now, a big job in our case wasn't 105 00:05:00,702 --> 00:05:03,981 Speaker 5: necessarily a high earning job. It was a demanding job. 106 00:05:04,181 --> 00:05:05,701 Speaker 5: It was a job that would be difficult for you 107 00:05:05,741 --> 00:05:07,301 Speaker 5: to just say I got to go my kids sick 108 00:05:07,381 --> 00:05:09,741 Speaker 5: or I need to stay home today or whatever job 109 00:05:09,741 --> 00:05:11,381 Speaker 5: that would make that hard. So, for example, when I 110 00:05:11,381 --> 00:05:13,541 Speaker 5: was in government, in the UK, I was working number ten. 111 00:05:13,621 --> 00:05:15,741 Speaker 5: That was a big job. It was not a big salary, 112 00:05:15,821 --> 00:05:17,382 Speaker 5: but it was a big job. And so my wife 113 00:05:17,462 --> 00:05:19,222 Speaker 5: did a more much more flexible job so that she 114 00:05:19,301 --> 00:05:20,741 Speaker 5: could be the one who could stay at home kind 115 00:05:20,741 --> 00:05:22,421 Speaker 5: of et cetera. And then when she was a partner 116 00:05:22,501 --> 00:05:25,701 Speaker 5: at a major consultancy, I was at home. I was writing, 117 00:05:25,702 --> 00:05:27,101 Speaker 5: and I was doing all that. And so you have 118 00:05:27,142 --> 00:05:29,261 Speaker 5: to have one of you that's like, I got it, 119 00:05:29,301 --> 00:05:31,702 Speaker 5: I got the kids. I'm primary person with the kids 120 00:05:31,702 --> 00:05:35,222 Speaker 5: because otherwise trying to both have big jobs and raise 121 00:05:35,262 --> 00:05:35,701 Speaker 5: the kids. 122 00:05:36,821 --> 00:05:41,941 Speaker 3: Firstly, at the little giggle that he gave when he 123 00:05:41,981 --> 00:05:46,301 Speaker 3: said having someone else to reach out children, that broke 124 00:05:46,342 --> 00:05:47,621 Speaker 3: my heart. I really didn't like that. 125 00:05:47,702 --> 00:05:50,381 Speaker 1: The man without kids and the man whose wife stayed 126 00:05:50,381 --> 00:05:51,462 Speaker 1: home and looked after his kids. 127 00:05:51,541 --> 00:05:53,741 Speaker 4: Imagine someone to look after your kids. 128 00:05:54,381 --> 00:05:57,981 Speaker 3: And the second thing I thought is how idealistic to 129 00:05:58,101 --> 00:06:01,342 Speaker 3: think we can't both have big jobs dot dot dot 130 00:06:01,902 --> 00:06:05,221 Speaker 3: at the same time. It's such a gas lighty way 131 00:06:05,861 --> 00:06:08,181 Speaker 3: to keep someone going. Yours can be flexible for the 132 00:06:08,222 --> 00:06:11,502 Speaker 3: moment while. And I'm not saying that he's necessarily doing this, 133 00:06:11,662 --> 00:06:13,861 Speaker 3: but what's really difficult for women is that when the 134 00:06:13,941 --> 00:06:16,981 Speaker 3: kids are little and you've maybe taken some maternity leave, 135 00:06:17,541 --> 00:06:20,261 Speaker 3: or you're maybe making decisions not what's best for you, 136 00:06:20,301 --> 00:06:23,662 Speaker 3: but what's best for the family, and the husband or 137 00:06:23,662 --> 00:06:25,981 Speaker 3: the man is going and staying at his kind of 138 00:06:26,142 --> 00:06:30,382 Speaker 3: not so flexible job. How often does that really switch? Yeah, 139 00:06:30,741 --> 00:06:32,782 Speaker 3: And how hard is it to look at each other 140 00:06:32,821 --> 00:06:34,741 Speaker 3: and go, hey, you know how you've climbed the latter 141 00:06:34,782 --> 00:06:38,861 Speaker 3: seven spots and I've gone down four. Here's an idea, 142 00:06:38,902 --> 00:06:40,861 Speaker 3: here's my turn. I'm going to make one third of 143 00:06:40,861 --> 00:06:44,222 Speaker 3: the money you do so that you can work in 144 00:06:44,262 --> 00:06:45,901 Speaker 3: a completely different It doesn't happen. 145 00:06:46,181 --> 00:06:49,541 Speaker 2: It can't happen one hundred percent, right, because this theory 146 00:06:49,582 --> 00:06:51,302 Speaker 2: has been around a long time. It's about having a 147 00:06:51,381 --> 00:06:54,022 Speaker 2: lead parent. You know, you're both pretty equal, but one 148 00:06:54,061 --> 00:06:56,181 Speaker 2: of you is the lead parent at home, and the 149 00:06:56,222 --> 00:06:58,662 Speaker 2: idea being that the person who's not the lead parent 150 00:06:58,702 --> 00:07:00,861 Speaker 2: can lean into the career, and then the batch on 151 00:07:00,981 --> 00:07:03,262 Speaker 2: can be passed and the lead parent can lean into 152 00:07:03,301 --> 00:07:05,941 Speaker 2: their career. Now, in an ideal world, it's a bloody 153 00:07:05,981 --> 00:07:09,101 Speaker 2: great idea, but as you've already pointed out, Jesse, how 154 00:07:09,142 --> 00:07:12,582 Speaker 2: often that actually happen in practice? Because the problem is 155 00:07:12,582 --> 00:07:14,462 Speaker 2: is you earn a certain amount of money that pays 156 00:07:14,502 --> 00:07:17,142 Speaker 2: for your life, your house, your mortgage, all that stuff, 157 00:07:17,381 --> 00:07:19,901 Speaker 2: and then if you suddenly switch it, how does that work? 158 00:07:20,182 --> 00:07:23,782 Speaker 2: And then also as another hard done by supermodel found 159 00:07:23,821 --> 00:07:26,422 Speaker 2: out Giselle, remember how when she broke up with Tom 160 00:07:26,462 --> 00:07:29,622 Speaker 2: Brady and they'd had their kids, she said, I kept 161 00:07:29,622 --> 00:07:33,221 Speaker 2: waiting for my turn because he kept saying, don't worry, darling, 162 00:07:33,262 --> 00:07:35,662 Speaker 2: I'm going to retire soon and then you can get 163 00:07:35,742 --> 00:07:38,462 Speaker 2: back into your career full bore. And she was like, 164 00:07:38,902 --> 00:07:40,982 Speaker 2: funnily enough, my turn never came. 165 00:07:41,582 --> 00:07:44,342 Speaker 1: Remember here retired, and then like two months later he's like, 166 00:07:44,582 --> 00:07:46,462 Speaker 1: I'm making a comeback and she left him. 167 00:07:46,582 --> 00:07:49,021 Speaker 3: And the stats as well about if a woman even 168 00:07:49,062 --> 00:07:51,302 Speaker 3: does go back, let's say she is doing the big job, 169 00:07:51,821 --> 00:07:54,862 Speaker 3: she's more than likely also doing the other jobs, the 170 00:07:54,941 --> 00:07:57,062 Speaker 3: other stuff, for the cleaning and the social schedules and 171 00:07:57,102 --> 00:07:58,502 Speaker 3: the cooking and all of that stuff. 172 00:07:58,502 --> 00:08:01,821 Speaker 2: I did. But I'm not the lead parent. Brent's the 173 00:08:01,862 --> 00:08:05,502 Speaker 2: lead parent, has he always been most of the time. 174 00:08:05,982 --> 00:08:10,622 Speaker 2: So I agree for ordinary people, you know, and a 175 00:08:10,622 --> 00:08:14,062 Speaker 2: lot of these people talking in Vogue and everything, they're 176 00:08:14,062 --> 00:08:16,542 Speaker 2: not necessarily ordinary people. I agree with the statement that 177 00:08:16,582 --> 00:08:20,141 Speaker 2: you can't both have really big jobs and still be 178 00:08:20,182 --> 00:08:22,901 Speaker 2: hands on at home. Well, not for most ordinary people, 179 00:08:22,941 --> 00:08:24,941 Speaker 2: because it wouldn't have worked. 180 00:08:24,662 --> 00:08:26,581 Speaker 4: In math, doesn't work in my house. 181 00:08:26,702 --> 00:08:29,862 Speaker 2: It wouldn't have worked if we both had had big jobs. 182 00:08:30,102 --> 00:08:32,542 Speaker 2: I mean big job sounds, but you know I had 183 00:08:32,622 --> 00:08:35,142 Speaker 2: more of a demanding job, let's say, and as he 184 00:08:35,182 --> 00:08:37,742 Speaker 2: puts it, I think that's a really good description of it. 185 00:08:37,742 --> 00:08:40,742 Speaker 2: It's not necessarily about the money, although it usually is too. 186 00:08:40,782 --> 00:08:42,702 Speaker 2: But the job that isn't like I can work from 187 00:08:42,702 --> 00:08:44,742 Speaker 2: home for three hours this afternoon, I can call him sick, 188 00:08:44,862 --> 00:08:46,742 Speaker 2: or I don't have to travel or like. The job 189 00:08:46,822 --> 00:08:49,942 Speaker 2: that's more flexible is the job that lends itself more 190 00:08:49,982 --> 00:08:52,342 Speaker 2: to being lead parent, and in our house, that's always 191 00:08:52,382 --> 00:08:56,102 Speaker 2: been Brent's role, right. I think if Brent had also 192 00:08:56,262 --> 00:08:59,142 Speaker 2: been trying to do a really full on job, we 193 00:08:59,142 --> 00:09:00,222 Speaker 2: wouldn't have been able to do it. 194 00:09:00,302 --> 00:09:03,982 Speaker 3: No, I've been saying to Luca for a year, you 195 00:09:04,062 --> 00:09:08,862 Speaker 3: can't have to full on massive jobs. And he says, yes, 196 00:09:08,902 --> 00:09:11,462 Speaker 3: you can. Look at my parents maya, can you help shit? 197 00:09:12,622 --> 00:09:17,422 Speaker 2: Yeah, but I reckon there's a and putting this to 198 00:09:17,502 --> 00:09:21,062 Speaker 2: Mia obviously for her conversation. They're the bosses. 199 00:09:21,102 --> 00:09:24,502 Speaker 4: It's different, so different. So like I remember when I first. 200 00:09:24,222 --> 00:09:26,262 Speaker 2: Came to work at Mama Mia a long time ago. 201 00:09:26,862 --> 00:09:29,862 Speaker 2: Mia left the office at two every day she'd work again. Yeah, yeah, 202 00:09:30,022 --> 00:09:31,982 Speaker 2: don't get me wrong, I'm not calling you lazier. I 203 00:09:32,062 --> 00:09:35,062 Speaker 2: just sounds like it was great, not that it would 204 00:09:35,062 --> 00:09:37,702 Speaker 2: not that it would be lazy if you have said that. 205 00:09:37,742 --> 00:09:40,662 Speaker 2: But I remember because I was looking, obviously looking for 206 00:09:40,742 --> 00:09:44,022 Speaker 2: models of how things worked. Mia was in early news 207 00:09:44,102 --> 00:09:46,422 Speaker 2: conference because in those days it was Mia was writing 208 00:09:46,422 --> 00:09:48,262 Speaker 2: for the website, doing all that stuff. She would leave 209 00:09:48,302 --> 00:09:51,142 Speaker 2: it too, kid, pick up, sort things out at home, 210 00:09:51,182 --> 00:09:53,662 Speaker 2: and then she'd be back online it was Skype or 211 00:09:53,662 --> 00:09:57,022 Speaker 2: whatever in those days, like later in the afternoon. You 212 00:09:57,022 --> 00:09:59,222 Speaker 2: were able to do that because you're the boss. 213 00:09:59,502 --> 00:09:59,742 Speaker 3: Yep. 214 00:09:59,942 --> 00:10:05,222 Speaker 1: So this is why women will often sacrifice money for flexibility, 215 00:10:05,342 --> 00:10:08,022 Speaker 1: because even if you work more hours, if they are 216 00:10:08,102 --> 00:10:12,022 Speaker 1: your hours to decide when you work them, it gives 217 00:10:12,022 --> 00:10:14,502 Speaker 1: you a degree of freedom and less stress. 218 00:10:14,902 --> 00:10:15,142 Speaker 4: Right. 219 00:10:15,702 --> 00:10:19,342 Speaker 1: What I find really hard to untangle about this. The 220 00:10:19,462 --> 00:10:22,662 Speaker 1: default thing is to blame men and go it's not fair. 221 00:10:22,982 --> 00:10:27,742 Speaker 1: Why won't men do more? Having employed literally hundreds of 222 00:10:27,742 --> 00:10:31,382 Speaker 1: women and worked with probably a thousand women over my career. 223 00:10:32,782 --> 00:10:35,262 Speaker 1: This is a generalization, but it has been the case 224 00:10:35,262 --> 00:10:39,342 Speaker 1: in the majority of situations I've seen. The men don't 225 00:10:39,382 --> 00:10:43,342 Speaker 1: necessarily want to work part time, but the women do so. 226 00:10:43,662 --> 00:10:47,622 Speaker 1: Whether it's because we genuinely want to be with our 227 00:10:47,702 --> 00:10:49,702 Speaker 1: kids more, and this is what I can't untangle even 228 00:10:49,702 --> 00:10:52,942 Speaker 1: in myself. How much is that we have a desire 229 00:10:53,222 --> 00:10:55,902 Speaker 1: to be with our kids more, and how much is 230 00:10:56,062 --> 00:10:59,942 Speaker 1: that we know that society and we've internalized society's expectations 231 00:10:59,942 --> 00:11:02,502 Speaker 1: that we should be with our kids. 232 00:11:02,262 --> 00:11:05,582 Speaker 2: More, choices made them so we feel less, we feel 233 00:11:05,662 --> 00:11:06,742 Speaker 2: less guilty. 234 00:11:06,982 --> 00:11:09,982 Speaker 3: A few things going on the part time prefer Maybe 235 00:11:09,982 --> 00:11:13,622 Speaker 3: that's because of the amount of labor going on in 236 00:11:13,662 --> 00:11:18,222 Speaker 3: your personal life that bleeds. That's like, if you are 237 00:11:18,622 --> 00:11:23,942 Speaker 3: cooking and picking up and doctor's appointments, cleaning and all 238 00:11:23,942 --> 00:11:27,742 Speaker 3: of the things, then it is very difficult to fit 239 00:11:27,782 --> 00:11:28,942 Speaker 3: a full time job around that. 240 00:11:29,022 --> 00:11:30,702 Speaker 2: Yeah, but me is saying that could be a man 241 00:11:30,742 --> 00:11:31,142 Speaker 2: doing that. 242 00:11:31,502 --> 00:11:33,982 Speaker 3: Yes, I know, But if the woman is already doing 243 00:11:33,982 --> 00:11:35,742 Speaker 3: those things, whether or not she's working full time or 244 00:11:35,782 --> 00:11:39,022 Speaker 3: part time, I think that she's then making that sacrifice 245 00:11:39,222 --> 00:11:41,782 Speaker 3: because of what she's already got on during the week, 246 00:11:41,822 --> 00:11:42,742 Speaker 3: If that makes sense. You know. 247 00:11:42,782 --> 00:11:45,022 Speaker 2: But what happens then, and this is what Emrad is 248 00:11:45,022 --> 00:11:47,022 Speaker 2: talking about, right, and I remember writing about this and 249 00:11:47,062 --> 00:11:48,542 Speaker 2: I give the marriage a year, is that This is 250 00:11:48,542 --> 00:11:50,382 Speaker 2: how it plays out in a lot of ordinary houses. 251 00:11:50,982 --> 00:11:54,462 Speaker 2: Baby comes, you take maternity leave. It might be six months, 252 00:11:54,462 --> 00:11:56,542 Speaker 2: it might be a year, it might be whatever. During 253 00:11:56,582 --> 00:11:59,902 Speaker 2: that time, you are the lead parent, and you are 254 00:11:59,942 --> 00:12:02,702 Speaker 2: also cooking dinner and whatever for maybe the first time ever, 255 00:12:02,782 --> 00:12:05,062 Speaker 2: maybe up until that day when you went on matt leave, 256 00:12:05,462 --> 00:12:07,702 Speaker 2: he was cooking dinner. Some nights you were cooking dinner. 257 00:12:07,702 --> 00:12:09,662 Speaker 2: Some nights he was doing the washing. Some days are 258 00:12:09,702 --> 00:12:12,382 Speaker 2: doing the washing, some days equal split, like Emrada says. 259 00:12:12,742 --> 00:12:15,502 Speaker 2: Then you're at home, so it's like I'm looking after 260 00:12:15,502 --> 00:12:17,982 Speaker 2: the baby and I'm doing the housy things. And then 261 00:12:18,022 --> 00:12:20,462 Speaker 2: what often happens is you go back to work and 262 00:12:20,542 --> 00:12:23,542 Speaker 2: somehow all those jobs still stick to you. While I 263 00:12:23,582 --> 00:12:25,262 Speaker 2: was cooking dinner and I know how to do it, 264 00:12:25,302 --> 00:12:26,942 Speaker 2: and I know what the kid's going to eat, and 265 00:12:26,982 --> 00:12:29,302 Speaker 2: I know how to do that, and I've organized those things, 266 00:12:29,342 --> 00:12:31,942 Speaker 2: so it's just and then somehow you keep doing them, 267 00:12:32,022 --> 00:12:33,662 Speaker 2: keep doing them, keep doing them. But then you've also 268 00:12:33,702 --> 00:12:36,862 Speaker 2: got your job, and it's like an insidious and insidious 269 00:12:36,902 --> 00:12:39,662 Speaker 2: sounds too sinister, because whenever you talk about this, I 270 00:12:39,702 --> 00:12:41,262 Speaker 2: want to make it really clear that I know what 271 00:12:41,302 --> 00:12:43,462 Speaker 2: a privilege it is to look after kids. I'm not 272 00:12:43,502 --> 00:12:46,902 Speaker 2: saying that, but I'm just talking about doing the two jobs, 273 00:12:46,902 --> 00:12:48,182 Speaker 2: the three jobs, the four jobs. 274 00:12:48,342 --> 00:12:49,141 Speaker 4: That a privilege? 275 00:12:49,262 --> 00:12:51,022 Speaker 2: Well, I think it is if you you know it 276 00:12:51,062 --> 00:12:52,382 Speaker 2: is for many. 277 00:12:51,982 --> 00:12:54,381 Speaker 3: It is and I think it's twofold right with the 278 00:12:54,382 --> 00:12:55,622 Speaker 3: privilege every day. 279 00:12:55,142 --> 00:12:58,582 Speaker 2: But when you end up doing all the things and 280 00:12:58,622 --> 00:13:00,982 Speaker 2: that creep happens. That is what Emrada is talking about, 281 00:13:00,982 --> 00:13:03,622 Speaker 2: where suddenly you're like, hold on, I'm back at work, 282 00:13:03,702 --> 00:13:06,542 Speaker 2: but I'm still doing all the things that we And 283 00:13:06,582 --> 00:13:07,982 Speaker 2: the thing is if you have a baby and then 284 00:13:07,982 --> 00:13:09,942 Speaker 2: you have a gap, and then you have another baby, whatever, 285 00:13:10,262 --> 00:13:12,742 Speaker 2: then that can be a period of a few years 286 00:13:12,822 --> 00:13:15,742 Speaker 2: where you were lead parent by default, and then it's 287 00:13:15,902 --> 00:13:18,142 Speaker 2: very hard to undo it, just like it's very hard 288 00:13:18,142 --> 00:13:21,542 Speaker 2: to undo this job. Flip that, and is this of 289 00:13:21,542 --> 00:13:22,702 Speaker 2: a CEO thing. 290 00:13:22,542 --> 00:13:25,662 Speaker 3: That happens with battles, right, And I've I've had this 291 00:13:25,702 --> 00:13:28,022 Speaker 3: where I've laid in bed at night and gone, do 292 00:13:28,102 --> 00:13:30,022 Speaker 3: I fight this battle? Do I fight this battle? And 293 00:13:30,022 --> 00:13:31,942 Speaker 3: there are eight hundred of the battles that you kind 294 00:13:31,982 --> 00:13:34,302 Speaker 3: of go. How did this fall on my plate? How 295 00:13:34,342 --> 00:13:36,022 Speaker 3: did this? I remember saying to a friend early on. 296 00:13:36,182 --> 00:13:38,381 Speaker 3: She said to me a few months in, I was 297 00:13:38,422 --> 00:13:42,542 Speaker 3: expressing some frustration and she said, has your husband ever 298 00:13:42,582 --> 00:13:45,782 Speaker 3: folded a onesie? And I was like, oh wow, the 299 00:13:45,822 --> 00:13:49,782 Speaker 3: things that defaulted to the woman, Like why would that 300 00:13:49,982 --> 00:13:51,942 Speaker 3: default to me? And that's not saying and this was 301 00:13:51,942 --> 00:13:55,342 Speaker 3: coming from us. I yeah, exactly, how does he think 302 00:13:55,382 --> 00:13:57,342 Speaker 3: the clothes and wherever bored or the. 303 00:13:57,382 --> 00:13:59,302 Speaker 1: Every time she grows out of clothes, has he ever 304 00:13:59,302 --> 00:14:00,102 Speaker 1: gone or she needs? 305 00:14:00,222 --> 00:14:00,942 Speaker 4: Yeah? 306 00:14:01,182 --> 00:14:03,342 Speaker 3: So there's just strange jobs where like, you know, I've 307 00:14:03,382 --> 00:14:05,622 Speaker 3: been with women and we've looked at each other and gone, oh, 308 00:14:05,622 --> 00:14:07,902 Speaker 3: so you're going away next week? Has he started packing 309 00:14:07,902 --> 00:14:11,862 Speaker 3: the sick case? Like just very very specific gender jobs 310 00:14:11,862 --> 00:14:14,102 Speaker 3: that you go This isn't our dynamic, so. 311 00:14:14,182 --> 00:14:16,022 Speaker 4: Pack the suitcase for who the bad baby? 312 00:14:16,102 --> 00:14:16,302 Speaker 2: Oh? 313 00:14:16,462 --> 00:14:18,262 Speaker 3: So it's sort of like the man and this is 314 00:14:18,302 --> 00:14:20,742 Speaker 3: I was literally having this conversation on the weekend. This 315 00:14:20,942 --> 00:14:23,822 Speaker 3: argument happens in all heterosexual couples. They're going away and 316 00:14:23,862 --> 00:14:25,902 Speaker 3: the man tries to convince a family that they can 317 00:14:25,942 --> 00:14:28,102 Speaker 3: go away with a carry on bag, and you look 318 00:14:28,102 --> 00:14:31,142 Speaker 3: at the man and go, You've never ever packed a 319 00:14:31,182 --> 00:14:32,182 Speaker 3: bag for a baby. 320 00:14:32,262 --> 00:14:32,982 Speaker 4: You had a period. 321 00:14:33,142 --> 00:14:35,942 Speaker 3: Well, I don't understand what needs to go three clothes, 322 00:14:36,302 --> 00:14:37,902 Speaker 3: and so I think that you lay They're going to 323 00:14:38,022 --> 00:14:39,422 Speaker 3: fight this fight? Do I fight this fight? 324 00:14:39,462 --> 00:14:41,142 Speaker 2: Do I? You have to fight the fight's Jesse, you 325 00:14:41,222 --> 00:14:43,182 Speaker 2: have to fight the fucking fights or you are packing 326 00:14:43,222 --> 00:14:44,862 Speaker 2: all the bags for the next twenty years. Is that 327 00:14:44,902 --> 00:14:45,342 Speaker 2: what you want? 328 00:14:45,822 --> 00:14:48,022 Speaker 1: But then society do you divide and conquer? And I 329 00:14:48,062 --> 00:14:50,422 Speaker 1: want to say back to me and Jason for a second. 330 00:14:51,142 --> 00:14:53,742 Speaker 1: The other difference is in the first part of our 331 00:14:53,742 --> 00:14:56,942 Speaker 1: relationship when we just had one child, I was working 332 00:14:57,182 --> 00:15:00,022 Speaker 1: in a big job. I was employed in magazines and 333 00:15:00,142 --> 00:15:04,742 Speaker 1: Jason had his own business, and that was really challenging 334 00:15:04,822 --> 00:15:06,702 Speaker 1: because we were pulling in different directions. So it was 335 00:15:06,742 --> 00:15:09,542 Speaker 1: always a competition for whose job and whose time was 336 00:15:09,662 --> 00:15:12,382 Speaker 1: more important, and also who was the most tired. I mean, 337 00:15:12,422 --> 00:15:14,622 Speaker 1: the title in picks is something that you have always. 338 00:15:14,662 --> 00:15:17,502 Speaker 1: It's like who's the most tired. The reason also that 339 00:15:17,502 --> 00:15:19,862 Speaker 1: we were able to do it in the last seventeen 340 00:15:19,942 --> 00:15:22,142 Speaker 1: years of having kids, which is really our last two 341 00:15:22,262 --> 00:15:25,422 Speaker 1: kids and most of our eldest child's life was because 342 00:15:25,422 --> 00:15:28,342 Speaker 1: we were working together, so we were pulling in the 343 00:15:28,342 --> 00:15:31,302 Speaker 1: same direction. And would we've ever been able to build 344 00:15:31,622 --> 00:15:34,182 Speaker 1: Mama Maya just one of us while the other one 345 00:15:34,222 --> 00:15:36,102 Speaker 1: had a big job, or while the other one was 346 00:15:36,102 --> 00:15:40,062 Speaker 1: building another business. Absolutely not. So we have very much 347 00:15:40,102 --> 00:15:42,742 Speaker 1: divided and conquered. And I've often said, like so much 348 00:15:42,822 --> 00:15:47,022 Speaker 1: of the mental load in our life is taken by jas, 349 00:15:47,262 --> 00:15:51,822 Speaker 1: like really traditional splits, right. And also he's always done 350 00:15:51,902 --> 00:15:54,542 Speaker 1: like dentists and haircuts. I don't know why, and I've 351 00:15:54,542 --> 00:15:57,702 Speaker 1: done medical things with the kids, but I do the 352 00:15:57,742 --> 00:16:00,582 Speaker 1: emotional a lot of the emotional stuff. But even now, 353 00:16:00,662 --> 00:16:03,622 Speaker 1: like we've got teenagers, it's very split. 354 00:16:03,982 --> 00:16:04,942 Speaker 4: It's really split. 355 00:16:04,982 --> 00:16:08,142 Speaker 1: But it also can be because we work together and 356 00:16:08,182 --> 00:16:09,502 Speaker 1: we're in charge of our own now. 357 00:16:10,222 --> 00:16:12,822 Speaker 3: The other thing that I noticed about what am writer, 358 00:16:12,862 --> 00:16:14,702 Speaker 3: because we can't talk about her without me picking out 359 00:16:14,702 --> 00:16:17,382 Speaker 3: something that I didn't like about what she said, there 360 00:16:17,422 --> 00:16:20,462 Speaker 3: was a quote about divorce as liberation, and that's what 361 00:16:20,462 --> 00:16:23,982 Speaker 3: they were sort of talking about, and I just I've 362 00:16:24,022 --> 00:16:29,222 Speaker 3: been reading a lot about how divorces liberation is a 363 00:16:29,222 --> 00:16:31,302 Speaker 3: bit of a luxury belief, is a bit of a 364 00:16:31,342 --> 00:16:34,142 Speaker 3: luxury idea that for someone like m writer who has 365 00:16:34,142 --> 00:16:38,422 Speaker 3: the means and who divorce won't financially cripple her. That 366 00:16:38,582 --> 00:16:42,502 Speaker 3: is very different to you know, millions and millions of 367 00:16:42,582 --> 00:16:46,982 Speaker 3: Americans who the decision to divorce and Australians who the 368 00:16:47,022 --> 00:16:50,822 Speaker 3: decision to divorce has you know, financial consequences or a 369 00:16:50,862 --> 00:16:53,502 Speaker 3: woman can't do that. So I even the book that 370 00:16:53,502 --> 00:16:55,542 Speaker 3: they were talking about, and there's all this literature coming 371 00:16:55,622 --> 00:16:57,822 Speaker 3: out which is really about empowering women to divorce, and 372 00:16:57,862 --> 00:16:59,782 Speaker 3: I know that is a solution to some of this, 373 00:16:59,902 --> 00:17:00,782 Speaker 3: and we talk about. 374 00:17:00,662 --> 00:17:02,822 Speaker 1: But Jesse, don't you think it comes down to the 375 00:17:02,822 --> 00:17:05,222 Speaker 1: man you are divorcing and the dynamic here are divorcing 376 00:17:05,262 --> 00:17:08,421 Speaker 1: because if I got a divorce, my life would be 377 00:17:08,502 --> 00:17:11,742 Speaker 1: so much harder. But Amrita's point, and I've got friends 378 00:17:11,742 --> 00:17:13,741 Speaker 1: who've also said, my life is so much easier and 379 00:17:13,782 --> 00:17:17,101 Speaker 1: it was liberating because they were with someone, but they 380 00:17:17,101 --> 00:17:17,942 Speaker 1: were still doing all. 381 00:17:17,821 --> 00:17:20,422 Speaker 2: The work and often they're looking after the guy too 382 00:17:20,502 --> 00:17:23,061 Speaker 2: and felt resentful exactly. And so the other piece about 383 00:17:23,061 --> 00:17:27,262 Speaker 2: that is these two ideas are linked because you're very 384 00:17:27,341 --> 00:17:30,742 Speaker 2: right that divorces a liberation is a luxury belief, because 385 00:17:30,782 --> 00:17:34,861 Speaker 2: divorce is actually statistically very bad for women in terms 386 00:17:34,861 --> 00:17:37,821 Speaker 2: of money. But one of the ways in which you 387 00:17:37,861 --> 00:17:40,341 Speaker 2: get more freedom to live the life you want is 388 00:17:40,381 --> 00:17:44,502 Speaker 2: to be financially independent, and that is probably the most 389 00:17:44,542 --> 00:17:47,542 Speaker 2: important kind of independence you can have. And you are 390 00:17:47,581 --> 00:17:50,621 Speaker 2: not financially independent if you have given up your career 391 00:17:51,101 --> 00:17:53,901 Speaker 2: to fold onesies. And I know it's saying that is 392 00:17:53,942 --> 00:17:56,222 Speaker 2: like a controversial thing to say, and I know exactly 393 00:17:56,262 --> 00:17:57,821 Speaker 2: who's out there in the world who's going to be 394 00:17:57,821 --> 00:18:00,621 Speaker 2: writing me and angry now tomorrow, because I know that 395 00:18:00,702 --> 00:18:03,542 Speaker 2: parenting is much more complicated than that. The decisions you 396 00:18:03,621 --> 00:18:06,061 Speaker 2: make in your life, as time goes on, you can 397 00:18:06,061 --> 00:18:07,862 Speaker 2: look back at them with some distance and you can 398 00:18:07,942 --> 00:18:09,982 Speaker 2: go there were things about that that were great, and 399 00:18:10,022 --> 00:18:11,901 Speaker 2: there were things about that that weren't. And I'm certainly 400 00:18:11,982 --> 00:18:14,821 Speaker 2: at that point now with my kids in that they're 401 00:18:14,861 --> 00:18:17,661 Speaker 2: both getting into that more independent teenage time. And I'm like, 402 00:18:17,742 --> 00:18:20,222 Speaker 2: you know what, I was always at work in those 403 00:18:20,262 --> 00:18:22,702 Speaker 2: early years and it was very stressful for us all, 404 00:18:22,742 --> 00:18:24,382 Speaker 2: and maybe I should have made some different choices blah 405 00:18:24,381 --> 00:18:28,702 Speaker 2: blah blah. But the truth of it is, these days 406 00:18:28,901 --> 00:18:33,222 Speaker 2: life is expensive. Everybody I know needs two incomes pretty much, 407 00:18:33,702 --> 00:18:36,701 Speaker 2: and you have so fewer choices. If you don't have 408 00:18:36,821 --> 00:18:39,942 Speaker 2: money of your own. And so if your marriage is miserable, 409 00:18:40,101 --> 00:18:42,581 Speaker 2: and if you're looking after somebody, you know they're just 410 00:18:42,661 --> 00:18:47,582 Speaker 2: another person you're looking after every day. Someone don't give 411 00:18:47,661 --> 00:18:48,101 Speaker 2: up your money. 412 00:18:48,182 --> 00:18:50,901 Speaker 1: Marriage is liberation. But I don't think marriage is a 413 00:18:50,942 --> 00:18:52,061 Speaker 1: prison for everybody. 414 00:18:52,262 --> 00:18:54,462 Speaker 2: Marriage is certainly not a prison for everybody, and divorce 415 00:18:54,502 --> 00:18:58,142 Speaker 2: isn't liberation for everybody. It's absolutely misery inducing for lots 416 00:18:58,182 --> 00:19:01,502 Speaker 2: of people. But if your marriage is unhappy, it's liberation, right. 417 00:19:01,782 --> 00:19:04,662 Speaker 3: I wondered just on the you know, women choosing part 418 00:19:04,661 --> 00:19:06,181 Speaker 3: time as well, And I don't quite know how to 419 00:19:06,262 --> 00:19:10,101 Speaker 3: articulate this, but just anecdotally, when I look at some 420 00:19:10,222 --> 00:19:11,781 Speaker 3: of the women around me and I look at the 421 00:19:11,782 --> 00:19:14,101 Speaker 3: decisions that they're making and why they're making those decisions, 422 00:19:15,341 --> 00:19:19,941 Speaker 3: I see women asking what is the best thing for 423 00:19:20,022 --> 00:19:23,222 Speaker 3: this family? So I have a friend who doesn't want 424 00:19:23,262 --> 00:19:27,101 Speaker 3: their child in daycare five days a week. Right, husband 425 00:19:27,341 --> 00:19:29,422 Speaker 3: happily have the child in daycare five days a week. 426 00:19:29,462 --> 00:19:32,462 Speaker 3: So what's a solution, Well, she can only work three days. 427 00:19:32,341 --> 00:19:35,381 Speaker 2: But isn't the solution Because this is the thing is that. 428 00:19:35,621 --> 00:19:37,461 Speaker 3: When I say solution, I mean that's what their family 429 00:19:37,502 --> 00:19:38,782 Speaker 3: then chooses yeah, yeah, Like. 430 00:19:38,742 --> 00:19:41,421 Speaker 2: Brende Brown talks about this is like, and I'm very 431 00:19:41,462 --> 00:19:43,422 Speaker 2: guilty of it in all the conversations we've just had. 432 00:19:43,702 --> 00:19:45,862 Speaker 2: Is we kind of putting the parents against each other 433 00:19:45,942 --> 00:19:49,342 Speaker 2: when healthy families make decisions that are good for the family. Right, 434 00:19:49,702 --> 00:19:51,662 Speaker 2: So the thing that's good for the family in that case, 435 00:19:51,702 --> 00:19:53,581 Speaker 2: if he feels that strongly about it, is he should 436 00:19:53,581 --> 00:19:55,222 Speaker 2: work four days and she should work four days. Do 437 00:19:55,262 --> 00:19:55,782 Speaker 2: you know what I mean? 438 00:19:55,861 --> 00:19:57,502 Speaker 4: Like he doesn't feel strongly about it. 439 00:19:57,462 --> 00:19:59,422 Speaker 2: But he does. He feels strongly that the kids should 440 00:19:59,422 --> 00:20:01,181 Speaker 2: be in daycare five no no, no, no, no no, And 441 00:20:01,222 --> 00:20:04,341 Speaker 2: she's saying I don't, isn't there's a common in that position. 442 00:20:04,502 --> 00:20:06,861 Speaker 1: What I think you're taking away from that, which is 443 00:20:06,901 --> 00:20:08,262 Speaker 1: that he thinks they should. 444 00:20:08,381 --> 00:20:10,341 Speaker 4: It's more like if they they are or they're not, 445 00:20:10,422 --> 00:20:10,942 Speaker 4: I don't care. 446 00:20:11,022 --> 00:20:13,101 Speaker 2: Yep, it doesn't he care about what she thinks and 447 00:20:13,182 --> 00:20:14,861 Speaker 2: what she wants. Like, this is what I mean about 448 00:20:14,901 --> 00:20:17,381 Speaker 2: making a decision for the family, Like, why are we 449 00:20:17,502 --> 00:20:19,621 Speaker 2: so binary about it? It's like, well, one of us 450 00:20:19,661 --> 00:20:21,742 Speaker 2: does three days and one of us does five. One 451 00:20:21,782 --> 00:20:23,661 Speaker 2: of the reasons why when you said me a before, 452 00:20:23,702 --> 00:20:25,142 Speaker 2: like why do all the women I work with want 453 00:20:25,141 --> 00:20:28,662 Speaker 2: to work part time. That is such a deep, culturally 454 00:20:28,821 --> 00:20:32,381 Speaker 2: entrenched position that I don't think it's fair to characterize 455 00:20:32,422 --> 00:20:34,702 Speaker 2: it as because they want to, Because some do, definitely, 456 00:20:35,222 --> 00:20:37,821 Speaker 2: and what an amazing choice if you can, But so 457 00:20:37,982 --> 00:20:40,181 Speaker 2: do some men. But it's just that they don't have 458 00:20:40,262 --> 00:20:43,222 Speaker 2: any cultural context, or very little even now in twenty 459 00:20:43,302 --> 00:20:45,821 Speaker 2: twenty four, of going into their boss and saying, what 460 00:20:45,861 --> 00:20:48,581 Speaker 2: does flexibility look like for me? Is it possible I 461 00:20:48,581 --> 00:20:51,662 Speaker 2: could do? Because two parents working four days might solve 462 00:20:51,702 --> 00:20:54,181 Speaker 2: that problem better than her having to then, because then 463 00:20:54,182 --> 00:20:58,101 Speaker 2: there's bitterness, resentment, she's taken a financial hit, Like how 464 00:20:58,182 --> 00:21:00,381 Speaker 2: is that good for the family as a whole? Like 465 00:21:00,901 --> 00:21:03,222 Speaker 2: isn't the ideal that you're making decisions for the family 466 00:21:03,262 --> 00:21:04,222 Speaker 2: as a whole if you can. 467 00:21:04,422 --> 00:21:07,262 Speaker 3: There's also the jobs. I'm having this discussion with my 468 00:21:07,302 --> 00:21:10,462 Speaker 3: sister at the moment about solids, right, Like when you 469 00:21:10,502 --> 00:21:14,502 Speaker 3: introduce food to a baby, you're thinking end to end, 470 00:21:14,661 --> 00:21:18,262 Speaker 3: right Like, I know for a week what my baby 471 00:21:18,262 --> 00:21:19,741 Speaker 3: needs to eat, and I know that there needs to 472 00:21:19,742 --> 00:21:21,902 Speaker 3: be allergens, and I know what needs to be prepared, 473 00:21:21,942 --> 00:21:23,742 Speaker 3: and I know that this breakfast needs to be different 474 00:21:23,742 --> 00:21:26,101 Speaker 3: to this breakfast and blah, blah blah, and then you know, 475 00:21:26,262 --> 00:21:28,542 Speaker 3: she might turn to a partner and say, can you 476 00:21:28,661 --> 00:21:32,181 Speaker 3: do breakfast? And he'll do one spoonful of yogurt and 477 00:21:32,222 --> 00:21:34,982 Speaker 3: then she'll you know, spit it out, and he'll abort 478 00:21:35,141 --> 00:21:37,581 Speaker 3: breakfast because he thinks they don't need it anymore. That's 479 00:21:37,581 --> 00:21:40,942 Speaker 3: what the mental load is, right, because it's like it's 480 00:21:41,022 --> 00:21:44,702 Speaker 3: not just delegating tasks to people in the family, it's 481 00:21:44,782 --> 00:21:48,702 Speaker 3: like having the whole helicopter job of that. And I'm 482 00:21:48,702 --> 00:21:51,181 Speaker 3: not quite sure how you shift that. 483 00:21:51,262 --> 00:21:53,981 Speaker 2: Sometimes I reckon and again, I know I sound like 484 00:21:54,022 --> 00:21:56,302 Speaker 2: I'm like very lectury on this, but you know it's 485 00:21:56,302 --> 00:21:59,982 Speaker 2: one of my specialist areas. We've talked about this jesse 486 00:22:00,302 --> 00:22:04,061 Speaker 2: h check in times right, because there is no question 487 00:22:04,702 --> 00:22:08,061 Speaker 2: that of course right now you your sister, whoever knows 488 00:22:08,101 --> 00:22:10,221 Speaker 2: more about what the baby should be. But you know 489 00:22:10,262 --> 00:22:12,902 Speaker 2: how I was talking before about the creep and suddenly 490 00:22:12,901 --> 00:22:15,142 Speaker 2: the baby will be six and yet it's still all 491 00:22:15,182 --> 00:22:18,061 Speaker 2: on your plate what the baby's eating, and he's still going, 492 00:22:18,101 --> 00:22:19,941 Speaker 2: what do you mean the baby doesn't like bananas? 493 00:22:19,982 --> 00:22:20,061 Speaker 1: Like? 494 00:22:20,141 --> 00:22:22,061 Speaker 2: And there's been six years in which he could have 495 00:22:22,141 --> 00:22:25,302 Speaker 2: let that. So what's more realistic, perhaps is you go 496 00:22:25,502 --> 00:22:28,221 Speaker 2: lead parent check in period. So you go, Okay, you 497 00:22:28,262 --> 00:22:32,142 Speaker 2: know how I've been doing this labor intensive whatever I'm 498 00:22:32,222 --> 00:22:34,742 Speaker 2: leading in for a year. But you don't set and forget, 499 00:22:34,942 --> 00:22:37,542 Speaker 2: you check back in like because it's the set and 500 00:22:37,581 --> 00:22:40,302 Speaker 2: forget that will build you into a position that you 501 00:22:40,381 --> 00:22:42,101 Speaker 2: may or may not want. It's just like, well, this 502 00:22:42,222 --> 00:22:44,861 Speaker 2: is just how it ended up, all on my plate, yeah, 503 00:22:44,861 --> 00:22:46,581 Speaker 2: do you know what I mean? Whereas maybe that won't 504 00:22:46,581 --> 00:22:49,262 Speaker 2: be the case in another six months when the baby's 505 00:22:49,302 --> 00:22:51,901 Speaker 2: eating needs aren't so complicated, but somehow it still ends 506 00:22:51,982 --> 00:22:52,901 Speaker 2: up with you, do you know what I mean? 507 00:22:52,982 --> 00:22:55,422 Speaker 3: Yeah? And they never understand the full scope of the job. 508 00:22:55,581 --> 00:22:56,381 Speaker 2: That's the issue. 509 00:22:56,502 --> 00:22:58,141 Speaker 3: If you've worked in an office or you've worked a 510 00:22:58,141 --> 00:23:00,182 Speaker 3: full time job, you understand what the full time job 511 00:23:00,262 --> 00:23:03,621 Speaker 3: consist of. But if you've been the full time parent 512 00:23:03,861 --> 00:23:06,302 Speaker 3: and the other person hasn't, then there's no way to 513 00:23:06,381 --> 00:23:07,981 Speaker 3: ever communicate what a day looks like.