1 00:00:08,234 --> 00:00:16,953 Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma mea podcast out Louders. 2 00:00:17,074 --> 00:00:20,754 Speaker 2: Welcome to our third and final in the series of 3 00:00:20,754 --> 00:00:23,314 Speaker 2: our summer book club. We have read three very different 4 00:00:23,354 --> 00:00:26,434 Speaker 2: books and my friends Emily Vernham and Jesse Stevens and 5 00:00:26,514 --> 00:00:30,754 Speaker 2: I have loved dissecting them with you. Today. It's our 6 00:00:30,794 --> 00:00:33,914 Speaker 2: third book, Mala Luca by Angie Fay Martin. 7 00:00:34,114 --> 00:00:36,954 Speaker 1: I mean, I love All Fours, that's one of my favorites. 8 00:00:37,153 --> 00:00:42,234 Speaker 1: But this was a such a surprise because I hadn't 9 00:00:42,273 --> 00:00:44,114 Speaker 1: read it yet, and so I think, I think this 10 00:00:44,153 --> 00:00:46,114 Speaker 1: could be my favorite of the three. Why did you 11 00:00:46,153 --> 00:00:46,793 Speaker 1: say come on? 12 00:00:47,114 --> 00:00:50,314 Speaker 3: You know, if you haven't listened to our book club offers, 13 00:00:50,354 --> 00:00:53,114 Speaker 3: you'll know exactly Go listen and you'll find out exactly 14 00:00:53,153 --> 00:00:53,953 Speaker 3: why I said come on. 15 00:00:55,234 --> 00:00:57,154 Speaker 2: Okay, So when we were choosing the books for our 16 00:00:57,194 --> 00:00:59,594 Speaker 2: book club, we wanted to choose three very different books 17 00:00:59,634 --> 00:01:02,633 Speaker 2: because we know our out louders are very interesting and 18 00:01:02,874 --> 00:01:04,914 Speaker 2: like reading all different kinds of things. So we did 19 00:01:04,914 --> 00:01:06,914 Speaker 2: All Fours, which is an older book that was a 20 00:01:07,194 --> 00:01:11,594 Speaker 2: whole phenomen its own right. We did a massively viral 21 00:01:11,994 --> 00:01:16,554 Speaker 2: romance book by Emiie Henry and this was the Australian 22 00:01:16,634 --> 00:01:20,434 Speaker 2: debut fiction of last year. The book's called Mala Luca. 23 00:01:20,514 --> 00:01:23,314 Speaker 2: It's by Angie Fay Martin. And I will assume that 24 00:01:23,394 --> 00:01:25,874 Speaker 2: if you are here with me and us you have 25 00:01:25,954 --> 00:01:28,554 Speaker 2: read it, yes, because there will be spoilers and it 26 00:01:28,674 --> 00:01:32,194 Speaker 2: is a crime book, so you do not want spoilers, okay. 27 00:01:32,594 --> 00:01:35,234 Speaker 2: Angie Fay Martin grew up in Queensland. She is a 28 00:01:35,274 --> 00:01:39,154 Speaker 2: woman of Cooma and Camilloy heritage as well as European heritage. 29 00:01:39,514 --> 00:01:41,634 Speaker 2: And that's kind of relevant because the world that she 30 00:01:41,754 --> 00:01:44,914 Speaker 2: writes in here and creates for us in this fictionalized 31 00:01:45,074 --> 00:01:47,474 Speaker 2: version of the town she grew up in, she has 32 00:01:47,554 --> 00:01:50,154 Speaker 2: this black white kind of division to it and she 33 00:01:50,394 --> 00:01:53,314 Speaker 2: very much takes us inside the Aboriginal culture of that place. 34 00:01:53,954 --> 00:01:57,314 Speaker 2: But the book itself is like is a twisty crime book. 35 00:01:57,914 --> 00:02:00,954 Speaker 2: And Angie Fay Martin has a degree in anthropology. She's 36 00:02:00,994 --> 00:02:03,314 Speaker 2: worked in government and then she got a sort of 37 00:02:03,434 --> 00:02:06,794 Speaker 2: fellowship with HarperCollins to work on this book. And she 38 00:02:06,834 --> 00:02:08,914 Speaker 2: did that over a course of years, some of it 39 00:02:08,994 --> 00:02:11,674 Speaker 2: in lockdown in Melbourne, some of it now she lives 40 00:02:11,714 --> 00:02:14,594 Speaker 2: back in Queensland. And when it came out last year, 41 00:02:14,834 --> 00:02:17,794 Speaker 2: I don't think it got an enormous amount of fanfare. 42 00:02:17,914 --> 00:02:20,474 Speaker 1: Do you I want to stop my fate and go 43 00:02:20,594 --> 00:02:23,434 Speaker 1: this book didn't get enough buzz yea how well it sold, 44 00:02:23,434 --> 00:02:28,034 Speaker 1: and it sold really well. There wasn't enough, like even 45 00:02:28,234 --> 00:02:32,194 Speaker 1: reviews in Australian publications. I don't think there was even 46 00:02:32,234 --> 00:02:35,194 Speaker 1: on my socials, like I'm surprised that there wasn't more 47 00:02:35,234 --> 00:02:36,274 Speaker 1: banging on about this book. 48 00:02:36,314 --> 00:02:40,034 Speaker 2: And it's interesting because the reading audience embraced it and 49 00:02:40,194 --> 00:02:42,634 Speaker 2: was the highest selling debut fiction of next year. She's 50 00:02:42,674 --> 00:02:45,034 Speaker 2: working another one. We'll get to that later. So that's 51 00:02:45,074 --> 00:02:48,994 Speaker 2: Angie Fay Martin for you. The book, Malluca. What did 52 00:02:49,034 --> 00:02:54,034 Speaker 2: we think about the setting and a protagonist? I loved 53 00:02:54,034 --> 00:02:56,314 Speaker 2: it from the first page. I started it and came 54 00:02:56,354 --> 00:02:58,714 Speaker 2: in and said to you too, Okay, this is really good. 55 00:02:59,034 --> 00:03:03,394 Speaker 2: So Renee Taylor is our protagonist, and she is an 56 00:03:03,394 --> 00:03:08,114 Speaker 2: Indigenous woman. Her mother is Whiting, her father is Indigenous, 57 00:03:08,674 --> 00:03:12,234 Speaker 2: and you can tell from the outset that this is 58 00:03:12,274 --> 00:03:16,234 Speaker 2: going to be about bridging various worlds. 59 00:03:17,194 --> 00:03:19,674 Speaker 1: And what I loved, and I've often found this with 60 00:03:19,754 --> 00:03:22,834 Speaker 1: police procedurals or crime shows, is that they can get 61 00:03:22,834 --> 00:03:26,394 Speaker 1: a bad rap kind of like, oh, it's really formulaic. 62 00:03:26,474 --> 00:03:27,913 Speaker 1: Can you know that this is going to happen, There's 63 00:03:27,914 --> 00:03:31,194 Speaker 1: going to be a body? And firstly, this flipped so 64 00:03:31,314 --> 00:03:35,394 Speaker 1: much on its head, I think. And secondly that structure 65 00:03:35,834 --> 00:03:39,794 Speaker 1: gives a writer so much to play with in terms 66 00:03:39,794 --> 00:03:45,674 Speaker 1: of themes and really relevant kind of social issues of 67 00:03:45,754 --> 00:03:49,794 Speaker 1: a particular time you just don't read. I remember reading 68 00:03:49,954 --> 00:03:52,754 Speaker 1: Barraville by Dan Box and it's a small town in 69 00:03:52,794 --> 00:03:55,754 Speaker 1: the mid north coast of New South Wales where you know, 70 00:03:55,834 --> 00:03:59,354 Speaker 1: this terrible crime occurred, but it's about how a bandoned 71 00:03:59,354 --> 00:04:03,674 Speaker 1: this community felt by authorities, and we talk about like 72 00:04:03,794 --> 00:04:07,754 Speaker 1: missing white girl syndrome and how you know it takes 73 00:04:07,754 --> 00:04:10,754 Speaker 1: a white girl being splashed all over the news and 74 00:04:10,794 --> 00:04:12,754 Speaker 1: there's all this interest and there's all this intrigue, and 75 00:04:12,794 --> 00:04:15,354 Speaker 1: often a story starts with the white girl. It is 76 00:04:15,434 --> 00:04:17,914 Speaker 1: so different when that story starts with an Aboriginal woman. 77 00:04:18,113 --> 00:04:20,474 Speaker 1: And so for her to do that, be able to 78 00:04:20,514 --> 00:04:26,794 Speaker 1: write with such sensitivity and nuance and care but also acknowledge, 79 00:04:26,873 --> 00:04:31,113 Speaker 1: like just watch how people, you know react to this 80 00:04:31,234 --> 00:04:33,873 Speaker 1: and what assumptions they might come to. I just thought 81 00:04:33,914 --> 00:04:37,593 Speaker 1: that premise had me in immediately because it was a 82 00:04:37,594 --> 00:04:41,113 Speaker 1: book that had purpose as well as being gripping and 83 00:04:41,433 --> 00:04:42,914 Speaker 1: like the pace was fantastic. 84 00:04:43,113 --> 00:04:45,633 Speaker 3: Yeah, I kind of feel the same as you, Jesse. 85 00:04:45,753 --> 00:04:47,873 Speaker 3: Out of the three books, I think this one is 86 00:04:47,953 --> 00:04:50,553 Speaker 3: my favorite, and it's one that I think I heard 87 00:04:50,553 --> 00:04:52,794 Speaker 3: from you guys like saying I didn't know like this 88 00:04:52,834 --> 00:04:53,993 Speaker 3: book existed, and I'm. 89 00:04:53,873 --> 00:04:54,714 Speaker 2: So glad I read it. 90 00:04:55,113 --> 00:04:57,154 Speaker 3: I'm the type of reader that for me to like 91 00:04:57,193 --> 00:04:59,753 Speaker 3: a book, I have to like the characters. I'm more 92 00:04:59,753 --> 00:05:02,794 Speaker 3: of a character reader than a plot reader. And when 93 00:05:02,794 --> 00:05:07,234 Speaker 3: we were introduced to Renee, I immediately warmed to her. 94 00:05:07,594 --> 00:05:10,234 Speaker 3: I love how her whole backstory was, like she was 95 00:05:10,234 --> 00:05:13,754 Speaker 3: a big detective in the city in Brisbane and then 96 00:05:13,794 --> 00:05:15,954 Speaker 3: she had to move back to her hometown and then 97 00:05:16,034 --> 00:05:18,873 Speaker 3: take a lesser job to look after to look after 98 00:05:18,914 --> 00:05:22,153 Speaker 3: her mum. And then immediately you see her like in 99 00:05:22,553 --> 00:05:24,954 Speaker 3: those first moments of the crime scene of her like 100 00:05:24,993 --> 00:05:27,793 Speaker 3: inserting herself and like being annoyed at the men she's 101 00:05:27,834 --> 00:05:30,873 Speaker 3: working with and saying I want to lead this case. 102 00:05:30,953 --> 00:05:33,153 Speaker 3: And I immediately was like, Oh, she's going to be good. 103 00:05:33,234 --> 00:05:36,153 Speaker 3: Like this character, I feel safe and knowing the story 104 00:05:36,234 --> 00:05:36,794 Speaker 3: is going to be good. 105 00:05:36,914 --> 00:05:39,074 Speaker 2: What I loved from the first page, well, for a start, 106 00:05:39,073 --> 00:05:42,834 Speaker 2: there was a map, and I freaking love a map. 107 00:05:42,594 --> 00:05:43,193 Speaker 1: In a book. 108 00:05:43,594 --> 00:05:45,274 Speaker 2: But what I love from the first place was its 109 00:05:45,274 --> 00:05:48,234 Speaker 2: sense of place, because, as you said about how you're 110 00:05:48,274 --> 00:05:50,873 Speaker 2: a character reader as well as a plot reader, I 111 00:05:51,154 --> 00:05:51,873 Speaker 2: love a world. 112 00:05:52,274 --> 00:05:52,794 Speaker 3: Yeah. 113 00:05:52,834 --> 00:05:56,034 Speaker 2: And from the first page of Renee when he first 114 00:05:56,034 --> 00:05:58,034 Speaker 2: made hers she's going for a run on this really 115 00:05:58,034 --> 00:06:00,873 Speaker 2: hot day. The way that she has created this town 116 00:06:01,753 --> 00:06:03,993 Speaker 2: like you could feel it, you could smell it, you 117 00:06:04,034 --> 00:06:07,034 Speaker 2: could see it, like you know. Throughout the book, Nate 118 00:06:07,594 --> 00:06:12,794 Speaker 2: is a big character. And the way brown snake, the snake, 119 00:06:13,393 --> 00:06:16,234 Speaker 2: the trees, it's called Mala Luca. I listened to a 120 00:06:16,234 --> 00:06:18,873 Speaker 2: podcast so, as I said, I haven't seen that much 121 00:06:18,914 --> 00:06:21,393 Speaker 2: with Angie Fay Martin, but I listened to a podcast 122 00:06:21,393 --> 00:06:23,794 Speaker 2: with her and Cassie Hamer on a book podcast, and 123 00:06:24,113 --> 00:06:26,113 Speaker 2: she said she called it Mala Luca because Mala Luca 124 00:06:26,234 --> 00:06:29,953 Speaker 2: is the paperbark tree and she wanted to refer to 125 00:06:30,034 --> 00:06:32,433 Speaker 2: the layers, like all the layers when you strip off 126 00:06:32,433 --> 00:06:34,314 Speaker 2: a paper bark tree, and all the different layers of 127 00:06:34,354 --> 00:06:37,313 Speaker 2: the characters in the story. And so I was a 128 00:06:37,354 --> 00:06:40,514 Speaker 2: sucker for because I agree with you, Jesse, that there's 129 00:06:40,513 --> 00:06:43,593 Speaker 2: something so wonderful about reading this book. And also In 130 00:06:43,633 --> 00:06:45,433 Speaker 2: this interview, she said she wanted it to be almost 131 00:06:45,753 --> 00:06:49,474 Speaker 2: an invitation for non Indigenous people to sort of empathize, 132 00:06:49,914 --> 00:06:53,954 Speaker 2: which I thought was brilliantly done. But also there's something 133 00:06:54,073 --> 00:06:57,753 Speaker 2: very familiar about out back crime stories, right, we read 134 00:06:57,753 --> 00:06:59,794 Speaker 2: a lot of them. They're very popular. They're called out 135 00:06:59,794 --> 00:07:02,674 Speaker 2: back noir. And so you also know, like for in 136 00:07:02,714 --> 00:07:05,834 Speaker 2: the first few pages, you actually also feel quite comfortable. 137 00:07:05,914 --> 00:07:08,433 Speaker 2: You're like, I could see this town, I can smell 138 00:07:08,433 --> 00:07:11,394 Speaker 2: this town. I know the characters. I know, you know, 139 00:07:11,514 --> 00:07:14,714 Speaker 2: the palm and the racist old guy who lives there, 140 00:07:14,714 --> 00:07:16,834 Speaker 2: and the dodgy drug dealer who lives there, and like 141 00:07:16,914 --> 00:07:19,914 Speaker 2: I felt comfortable in that world. And you kind of knew, 142 00:07:20,154 --> 00:07:22,794 Speaker 2: to your point about formula, that there's going to be 143 00:07:22,794 --> 00:07:24,754 Speaker 2: a body in a minute and something's going to happen. 144 00:07:25,474 --> 00:07:28,034 Speaker 2: But I didn't mind that at all because I liked 145 00:07:28,034 --> 00:07:30,354 Speaker 2: where I was and I liked being in Renee's head. 146 00:07:30,554 --> 00:07:32,634 Speaker 3: Yeah, and you also feel like you know you're not 147 00:07:32,674 --> 00:07:34,914 Speaker 3: going to be cheated by someone from like outside. The 148 00:07:34,914 --> 00:07:37,593 Speaker 3: map's going to come in and like change everything else, 149 00:07:37,674 --> 00:07:39,554 Speaker 3: which is also what I liked about your book. With 150 00:07:39,634 --> 00:07:41,713 Speaker 3: your map in, he would never I felt safe in 151 00:07:41,754 --> 00:07:42,434 Speaker 3: my little camp. 152 00:07:42,514 --> 00:07:45,153 Speaker 2: Here's your little world. This is where we're playing at 153 00:07:45,154 --> 00:07:46,994 Speaker 2: the moment. So I love that and I kept looking 154 00:07:47,034 --> 00:07:50,554 Speaker 2: even though it doesn't serve a narrative purpose. I just 155 00:07:50,634 --> 00:07:52,794 Speaker 2: find that really interesting. This is the site of the 156 00:07:52,874 --> 00:07:55,474 Speaker 2: old Yomba camp. You know. I loved all that stuff. 157 00:07:55,754 --> 00:08:00,274 Speaker 2: So the story, Renee, as you've already said, comes to city. 158 00:08:00,314 --> 00:08:03,674 Speaker 2: So they find a body, young Aboriginal woman, and then 159 00:08:03,794 --> 00:08:05,874 Speaker 2: it takes off from there. Renee wants to take over 160 00:08:05,914 --> 00:08:08,473 Speaker 2: the case. She comes across a certain amount of resistance 161 00:08:08,474 --> 00:08:11,034 Speaker 2: and that from the old cops and from the town. 162 00:08:11,674 --> 00:08:13,994 Speaker 2: How did you feel from the beginning about the mystery 163 00:08:14,034 --> 00:08:16,154 Speaker 2: and how the mystery was set out for us? 164 00:08:16,634 --> 00:08:19,314 Speaker 1: I think that I've become a little bit because I 165 00:08:19,554 --> 00:08:21,594 Speaker 1: at the outback noir thing. I am deep in that. 166 00:08:21,634 --> 00:08:24,914 Speaker 1: I have read everybody like the Hailey Scrivener's, the Jane 167 00:08:24,953 --> 00:08:27,874 Speaker 1: Harper's like I'd love this genre, but I am also 168 00:08:28,034 --> 00:08:31,393 Speaker 1: very conscious of using a woman's body as like a 169 00:08:31,474 --> 00:08:37,154 Speaker 1: vehicle for plot. But because I felt that it was 170 00:08:37,394 --> 00:08:41,874 Speaker 1: so layered and that she Renee, had a connection and 171 00:08:41,914 --> 00:08:44,034 Speaker 1: that people were also looking at the connection going oh 172 00:08:44,074 --> 00:08:47,074 Speaker 1: do you know her? Because they both had you know, 173 00:08:47,234 --> 00:08:51,194 Speaker 1: a similar background potentially. I was comfortable with that. I 174 00:08:51,234 --> 00:08:53,674 Speaker 1: thought it was really interesting too. How long it took 175 00:08:53,714 --> 00:08:55,954 Speaker 1: for us to know who the person was that was 176 00:08:55,954 --> 00:08:59,914 Speaker 1: the big question, and how you even go about finding 177 00:08:59,954 --> 00:09:02,274 Speaker 1: out And in fact, I'm only just remembering now the 178 00:09:02,354 --> 00:09:05,074 Speaker 1: kind of prology bit which is actually from the perspective 179 00:09:05,154 --> 00:09:08,394 Speaker 1: of the person who is running, which I found. 180 00:09:08,714 --> 00:09:11,634 Speaker 2: The first eyes you're looking through are of the victim. 181 00:09:11,594 --> 00:09:15,314 Speaker 1: Are of the victim, and that never happens. It managed 182 00:09:15,354 --> 00:09:21,074 Speaker 1: to give her some humanity and some perspective rather than 183 00:09:21,234 --> 00:09:25,914 Speaker 1: just be this kind of passive yeah plot point, which 184 00:09:25,954 --> 00:09:26,354 Speaker 1: I don't like. 185 00:09:26,634 --> 00:09:29,554 Speaker 2: So you knew from the beginning that this young woman 186 00:09:29,554 --> 00:09:32,394 Speaker 2: had escaped from somebody. You knew the person who killed 187 00:09:32,394 --> 00:09:34,154 Speaker 2: He was a man, He was a scary man who 188 00:09:34,194 --> 00:09:36,034 Speaker 2: was trying to chase it down. You knew those things. 189 00:09:36,674 --> 00:09:37,474 Speaker 2: But that's all you. 190 00:09:37,514 --> 00:09:40,314 Speaker 3: Knew, really, And you knew that she knew. 191 00:09:40,114 --> 00:09:43,634 Speaker 2: Him, Yes, that there were he wasn't a stranger. And 192 00:09:43,674 --> 00:09:45,594 Speaker 2: so then the mystery goes from there. 193 00:09:45,914 --> 00:09:48,514 Speaker 1: And the great thing about small towns, and I think 194 00:09:48,514 --> 00:09:51,434 Speaker 1: the reason this genre works is because it's true, which 195 00:09:51,474 --> 00:09:54,794 Speaker 1: is at small town's talk, everyone knows each other. You 196 00:09:54,834 --> 00:09:58,434 Speaker 1: do have this closed bracket that when you write in 197 00:09:58,474 --> 00:10:02,314 Speaker 1: a city, it's so much less satisfying because other people 198 00:10:02,354 --> 00:10:05,154 Speaker 1: can come in and you don't have this neat set. 199 00:10:05,394 --> 00:10:08,314 Speaker 1: And so I think that the at that names came 200 00:10:08,394 --> 00:10:10,874 Speaker 1: up early on, and you know that half of them 201 00:10:10,914 --> 00:10:13,314 Speaker 1: are going to be total red herrings, and that you 202 00:10:13,314 --> 00:10:16,634 Speaker 1: know you're getting suspicious of blah. That all works because 203 00:10:16,634 --> 00:10:17,514 Speaker 1: it's true. 204 00:10:17,874 --> 00:10:21,874 Speaker 2: So what happens is Renee and her digging. She discovers 205 00:10:21,954 --> 00:10:24,074 Speaker 2: a story that she didn't know, even though she grew 206 00:10:24,194 --> 00:10:27,833 Speaker 2: up in this town of two young Aboriginal women who 207 00:10:27,834 --> 00:10:31,434 Speaker 2: went missing in the nineteen sixties, and they were never found, 208 00:10:32,034 --> 00:10:33,794 Speaker 2: and it appears to have been a cold case, and 209 00:10:33,834 --> 00:10:37,234 Speaker 2: it appears that people will not really runaways, considered them 210 00:10:37,274 --> 00:10:42,954 Speaker 2: runaways whatever. But she notices a link between the dead 211 00:10:42,954 --> 00:10:45,434 Speaker 2: woman and one of the missing women in that they 212 00:10:45,434 --> 00:10:47,754 Speaker 2: were wearing the same necklace in a photo. 213 00:10:47,914 --> 00:10:48,394 Speaker 1: I love that. 214 00:10:48,794 --> 00:10:52,554 Speaker 2: So that was a brilliant stopping point to then tip 215 00:10:52,634 --> 00:10:56,794 Speaker 2: us into another story. And at first, which is going 216 00:10:56,834 --> 00:10:59,834 Speaker 2: back in time and meeting Bessie and Caroline, who are 217 00:10:59,874 --> 00:11:03,434 Speaker 2: the two women who go missing. At first, I was 218 00:11:03,554 --> 00:11:06,274 Speaker 2: irritated to be tipped back to that world because and 219 00:11:06,314 --> 00:11:08,194 Speaker 2: I think this is always a testament to a book 220 00:11:08,274 --> 00:11:11,354 Speaker 2: you're loving. You know when you shift perspectives in You're lie. 221 00:11:11,394 --> 00:11:13,234 Speaker 2: But I like that perspective. 222 00:11:13,554 --> 00:11:15,314 Speaker 1: I liked that world. Take Me Back. 223 00:11:15,434 --> 00:11:16,274 Speaker 3: I like Renee. 224 00:11:16,394 --> 00:11:18,194 Speaker 2: I don't want to go back time, but of course, 225 00:11:18,594 --> 00:11:21,434 Speaker 2: because she's a bloody good writer, I was very quickly 226 00:11:21,554 --> 00:11:23,634 Speaker 2: immersed in that world too. How did you feel about 227 00:11:23,634 --> 00:11:25,394 Speaker 2: being taken back to the sixties. 228 00:11:25,514 --> 00:11:27,634 Speaker 3: Similar to you, I was a bit like no, and 229 00:11:27,674 --> 00:11:30,394 Speaker 3: then I was scared that. I think it took me 230 00:11:30,554 --> 00:11:34,274 Speaker 3: a few chapters to get used to the sixties storyline 231 00:11:34,354 --> 00:11:37,034 Speaker 3: because after the first chapter I wanted to go straight 232 00:11:37,074 --> 00:11:39,354 Speaker 3: back to Renee because I think she was still building 233 00:11:39,394 --> 00:11:43,354 Speaker 3: the backstory of Caroline and Bessie, and I'm like, I 234 00:11:43,394 --> 00:11:45,474 Speaker 3: get it. They're two friends and one of them is 235 00:11:45,474 --> 00:11:47,074 Speaker 3: a bit naughty, and one of them wants to listen 236 00:11:47,114 --> 00:11:49,954 Speaker 3: to a sister. But then the more you went into, 237 00:11:50,154 --> 00:11:54,874 Speaker 3: especially Caroline's life of working for a family and then 238 00:11:54,954 --> 00:11:58,594 Speaker 3: falling in love, I became so enthralled in that world. 239 00:11:58,714 --> 00:12:01,834 Speaker 3: I wanted to stay there. And you were so good 240 00:12:01,874 --> 00:12:04,754 Speaker 3: at pulling you back at just the right moment, like 241 00:12:04,834 --> 00:12:07,594 Speaker 3: right when you wanted more. You would like be switched back, and. 242 00:12:07,554 --> 00:12:09,034 Speaker 1: The question in the back of your head was like, 243 00:12:09,114 --> 00:12:12,474 Speaker 1: what could possibly be the connection between these two women 244 00:12:12,674 --> 00:12:15,634 Speaker 1: and why have they both got this? Pendenton and you're 245 00:12:15,634 --> 00:12:18,114 Speaker 1: going the timelines, I don't understand one because one is 246 00:12:18,394 --> 00:12:21,874 Speaker 1: there and one is there. And the way that she 247 00:12:22,194 --> 00:12:26,354 Speaker 1: was able to write, and I've seen interviews with her 248 00:12:26,394 --> 00:12:31,834 Speaker 1: about this too, the relationship between the Aboriginal community on 249 00:12:31,874 --> 00:12:39,634 Speaker 1: that camp and the European settlers was so refreshing because 250 00:12:39,674 --> 00:12:42,314 Speaker 1: you could see the absolute There is a moment that 251 00:12:42,354 --> 00:12:45,914 Speaker 1: Caroline has it is so traumatic. That is like the 252 00:12:45,954 --> 00:12:49,754 Speaker 1: way that she's scrutinized and harassed by a lot of 253 00:12:49,834 --> 00:12:53,674 Speaker 1: the white people and the blatant racism, but at the 254 00:12:53,674 --> 00:12:57,194 Speaker 1: same time she develops this relationship with a white man 255 00:12:57,234 --> 00:13:01,554 Speaker 1: who's lovely to her and actually, you know, really likes her. 256 00:13:01,794 --> 00:13:05,634 Speaker 1: So it's not this simple bad good blah blah blah. 257 00:13:05,674 --> 00:13:09,714 Speaker 1: It's messy hue relationships that I thought were really well rich. 258 00:13:09,874 --> 00:13:12,994 Speaker 2: She also writes again to my obsession with this place. 259 00:13:13,154 --> 00:13:17,074 Speaker 2: She writes about life on the Yumba, the camp so 260 00:13:17,274 --> 00:13:20,954 Speaker 2: viscerally I felt like I was there and she in 261 00:13:20,994 --> 00:13:24,474 Speaker 2: the interviewer I listened to with Angie Fay Martin. She 262 00:13:24,474 --> 00:13:27,354 Speaker 2: said her father and grandmother lived and grew up in 263 00:13:27,394 --> 00:13:30,754 Speaker 2: a place like that on the edge of town, and 264 00:13:31,274 --> 00:13:33,554 Speaker 2: she ran things past them and was like, is this 265 00:13:33,674 --> 00:13:35,354 Speaker 2: what it was like? And is this how that would 266 00:13:35,354 --> 00:13:37,514 Speaker 2: have been? And these some words that would be used, 267 00:13:37,514 --> 00:13:40,914 Speaker 2: and all those things, And you absolutely can feel that 268 00:13:41,034 --> 00:13:44,954 Speaker 2: veracity that how real that is, and like without being 269 00:13:44,954 --> 00:13:49,434 Speaker 2: in any way sentimental, like the good things about that community, 270 00:13:49,514 --> 00:13:53,514 Speaker 2: like how tight it is, how safe it feels to them, 271 00:13:53,554 --> 00:13:55,833 Speaker 2: and everybody knows each other, everybody's looking out for each other, 272 00:13:56,034 --> 00:13:59,914 Speaker 2: but without any kind of like sugary sentimentality about the 273 00:13:59,914 --> 00:14:02,594 Speaker 2: fact that these are people who've been completely kicked off 274 00:14:02,754 --> 00:14:05,754 Speaker 2: their lands, marginalized, shoved in a corner, and then made 275 00:14:06,594 --> 00:14:08,914 Speaker 2: two works for the white people if they want to work, 276 00:14:08,994 --> 00:14:12,754 Speaker 2: you know. I mean, it's a brutal story, but it's 277 00:14:12,954 --> 00:14:15,754 Speaker 2: also I don't know, there's just a lot of layers. 278 00:14:15,834 --> 00:14:18,474 Speaker 2: Layers is the word to the way that she expresses it. 279 00:14:18,514 --> 00:14:20,874 Speaker 2: And I found that really interesting. 280 00:14:21,034 --> 00:14:25,114 Speaker 3: The only thing I wanted from the nineteen sixties storyline 281 00:14:25,234 --> 00:14:27,994 Speaker 3: is to explore those characters a bit more. I was 282 00:14:28,034 --> 00:14:32,594 Speaker 3: obsessed with Caroline's older sister, Millie, and I really wanted 283 00:14:32,594 --> 00:14:36,474 Speaker 3: to hear more about her because she would have been 284 00:14:36,634 --> 00:14:38,794 Speaker 3: only a little bit older than Caroline, and she was 285 00:14:38,834 --> 00:14:41,514 Speaker 3: looking after Caroline like sounded like she raised her, like 286 00:14:41,834 --> 00:14:44,474 Speaker 3: Caroline even said, I don't remember my parents dying, but 287 00:14:44,674 --> 00:14:48,354 Speaker 3: Millie did, and she had also was looking after the grandfather, 288 00:14:48,634 --> 00:14:52,154 Speaker 3: and even like little things where Caroline would mention that 289 00:14:52,234 --> 00:14:54,194 Speaker 3: she would change her voice when she would speak to 290 00:14:54,194 --> 00:14:56,914 Speaker 3: the white people at their church, like even like someone 291 00:14:56,914 --> 00:15:00,274 Speaker 3: that young learning about code switching so early and knowing 292 00:15:00,314 --> 00:15:02,474 Speaker 3: that you have to like fully change yourself as a 293 00:15:02,474 --> 00:15:04,394 Speaker 3: person just to get by. 294 00:15:04,554 --> 00:15:07,674 Speaker 1: And that having to present yourself as soon certain way 295 00:15:08,514 --> 00:15:14,034 Speaker 1: be incredibly well put together and well spoken and ridiculously polite, 296 00:15:14,274 --> 00:15:16,714 Speaker 1: was like a survival mechanism. Like her being type A 297 00:15:17,594 --> 00:15:20,234 Speaker 1: was like, I am in charge of this family being okay, 298 00:15:20,234 --> 00:15:21,914 Speaker 1: and here's how I'm gonna do it. 299 00:15:21,994 --> 00:15:24,154 Speaker 3: And also knowing she was working at a pub, and 300 00:15:24,194 --> 00:15:26,994 Speaker 3: I would be like, that would be the worst job, Yeah, 301 00:15:26,994 --> 00:15:28,194 Speaker 3: to work in a pub. 302 00:15:28,794 --> 00:15:32,354 Speaker 2: As an in nineteen sixties, in the small town one. 303 00:15:33,474 --> 00:15:36,554 Speaker 1: After the break, I want to talk about the twist, 304 00:15:36,794 --> 00:15:39,714 Speaker 1: whether we think it was believable, and where the plot 305 00:15:39,754 --> 00:15:40,274 Speaker 1: went next. 306 00:15:40,994 --> 00:15:42,914 Speaker 2: One of the other things I loved about that period 307 00:15:42,954 --> 00:15:45,434 Speaker 2: of time. That was I thought beautifully expressed to Is 308 00:15:45,474 --> 00:15:48,474 Speaker 2: that to your point, M about being very much in 309 00:15:48,514 --> 00:15:51,274 Speaker 2: this young woman's mind and looking out through her eyes 310 00:15:51,634 --> 00:15:56,114 Speaker 2: how fucking terrifying life was at all times when you 311 00:15:56,154 --> 00:16:00,274 Speaker 2: were outside the yonber Because when she's at the fancy 312 00:16:00,314 --> 00:16:03,634 Speaker 2: white lady's house, like at any moment, you just got 313 00:16:03,634 --> 00:16:06,114 Speaker 2: a very real sense that things could go very pear 314 00:16:06,234 --> 00:16:09,594 Speaker 2: shaped if you did something to upset the white people 315 00:16:09,754 --> 00:16:12,514 Speaker 2: and this world, and that nobody would give a shit. Really, 316 00:16:12,554 --> 00:16:14,874 Speaker 2: and that's the thing, and that was very well told. 317 00:16:14,914 --> 00:16:19,234 Speaker 2: I've felt that the stress, the anxiety of that was 318 00:16:19,354 --> 00:16:19,994 Speaker 2: very real. Yeah. 319 00:16:19,994 --> 00:16:23,194 Speaker 3: I felt scared, like don't take her oranges crazy? 320 00:16:23,354 --> 00:16:26,394 Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, when there's a threatening man she used to 321 00:16:26,434 --> 00:16:29,634 Speaker 1: work for who comes in and it's like what it 322 00:16:29,714 --> 00:16:33,394 Speaker 1: must feel like to see I often think of this. 323 00:16:33,914 --> 00:16:37,234 Speaker 1: When I see a police car, I feel safe, right. 324 00:16:37,314 --> 00:16:40,154 Speaker 1: That is my white privilege, my privilege of where I 325 00:16:40,154 --> 00:16:43,874 Speaker 1: grew up speaking and my brother who has worked in 326 00:16:44,154 --> 00:16:47,034 Speaker 1: some of the most disadvantaged suburbs in Sydney with lots 327 00:16:47,034 --> 00:16:49,914 Speaker 1: of different communities, that's not how they feel when they 328 00:16:49,914 --> 00:16:52,234 Speaker 1: see a police car. Yeah, they go that police car 329 00:16:52,274 --> 00:16:54,554 Speaker 1: is coming to take my dad, they're coming to take 330 00:16:54,594 --> 00:16:58,234 Speaker 1: my mum. They are going to be aggressive, they get whatever, 331 00:16:58,354 --> 00:17:02,634 Speaker 1: And that's forged among toddlers like who have had these 332 00:17:02,674 --> 00:17:07,033 Speaker 1: particular experiences. And so the vulnerability you must feel that 333 00:17:07,154 --> 00:17:10,513 Speaker 1: if something goes wrong for you, there's no one to 334 00:17:10,634 --> 00:17:15,394 Speaker 1: protect you. In fact, they'll probably protect the perpetrator. I 335 00:17:15,474 --> 00:17:19,634 Speaker 1: thought that was so perfectly played out in this and 336 00:17:20,074 --> 00:17:24,474 Speaker 1: the fact that Renee was straddling both of those worlds 337 00:17:24,514 --> 00:17:26,593 Speaker 1: and trying to be this face of the police force 338 00:17:27,154 --> 00:17:30,234 Speaker 1: while getting protests from her own community saying you're not 339 00:17:30,274 --> 00:17:32,513 Speaker 1: doing enough, which she kind of knew to be true. 340 00:17:33,194 --> 00:17:35,914 Speaker 1: But she's there doing her best. She's not wide enough 341 00:17:35,954 --> 00:17:38,354 Speaker 1: for the white people, she's not Aboriginal enough. Like I 342 00:17:38,434 --> 00:17:41,954 Speaker 1: just thought that something that is a such a unique 343 00:17:41,994 --> 00:17:46,553 Speaker 1: experience that I really appreciated. And you could see that 344 00:17:46,554 --> 00:17:49,274 Speaker 1: for the people that hated the police force and they 345 00:17:49,314 --> 00:17:51,793 Speaker 1: take it out on every like the contempt that they 346 00:17:51,834 --> 00:17:54,793 Speaker 1: feel for them is so justified. Yeah, like because of 347 00:17:54,874 --> 00:17:59,394 Speaker 1: experiences they've had of maybe a daughter going missing or whatever, 348 00:17:59,554 --> 00:18:02,194 Speaker 1: and no one asked them many questions. They just accepted it. 349 00:18:02,434 --> 00:18:06,194 Speaker 2: And I felt like the character of Renee straddled that 350 00:18:06,314 --> 00:18:08,314 Speaker 2: so well in the time, Like you could tell, as 351 00:18:08,354 --> 00:18:12,074 Speaker 2: you said at the beginning, like she's not a pushover 352 00:18:12,114 --> 00:18:14,354 Speaker 2: in any way, which obviously you wouldn't be if you've 353 00:18:14,514 --> 00:18:17,154 Speaker 2: risen to that rank in the police force. But you know, 354 00:18:17,274 --> 00:18:20,194 Speaker 2: she gets a bit pissed off with like the people 355 00:18:20,234 --> 00:18:23,874 Speaker 2: at work who ask stupid, patronizing questions, with people in 356 00:18:23,914 --> 00:18:27,033 Speaker 2: the community who are you know, think they're well meaning 357 00:18:27,114 --> 00:18:28,594 Speaker 2: but are throwing in some you know. 358 00:18:28,594 --> 00:18:31,834 Speaker 3: Even like her were colleagues Stay Stacy and her older 359 00:18:31,874 --> 00:18:33,034 Speaker 3: sister used to bully her. 360 00:18:33,194 --> 00:18:36,114 Speaker 1: She was annoying Stacy. I was just like, Stacey does. 361 00:18:36,034 --> 00:18:39,354 Speaker 2: Need a bit they kind of get friendly, but don't 362 00:18:39,354 --> 00:18:41,994 Speaker 2: they But like, yeah, it's again the skill of a 363 00:18:42,074 --> 00:18:44,434 Speaker 2: rider to be able to She didn't have to make 364 00:18:44,594 --> 00:18:48,234 Speaker 2: Renee have all smooth edges for you to like her, 365 00:18:48,314 --> 00:18:51,273 Speaker 2: care about her, love her. I also really loved the 366 00:18:51,314 --> 00:18:53,513 Speaker 2: scenes with Renee and her mum, like in the little 367 00:18:53,554 --> 00:18:58,914 Speaker 2: house or chickens in there, like I just somebody think 368 00:18:58,994 --> 00:19:02,714 Speaker 2: of the chickens. I also really liked that whole thing. 369 00:19:03,114 --> 00:19:05,194 Speaker 2: And so when did you begin to get an inkling 370 00:19:05,554 --> 00:19:08,114 Speaker 2: of what you thought was going to happen? Wait? 371 00:19:08,114 --> 00:19:12,234 Speaker 3: Can I first a chicken story? A chicken question. So, 372 00:19:12,434 --> 00:19:15,554 Speaker 3: like the eggs that she had from the chickens, if 373 00:19:15,594 --> 00:19:18,554 Speaker 3: you incubate like eggs that we get enough fridge, would 374 00:19:18,594 --> 00:19:19,194 Speaker 3: they know? 375 00:19:19,434 --> 00:19:22,474 Speaker 2: Okay, the eggs have to be fertilized to hatch. Like 376 00:19:22,514 --> 00:19:24,434 Speaker 2: if you just got any old egg and shoved under 377 00:19:24,434 --> 00:19:27,914 Speaker 2: a lamp, it probably wouldn't. But if they've been fertilized, 378 00:19:27,914 --> 00:19:29,073 Speaker 2: didn't you give them the right condition? 379 00:19:29,154 --> 00:19:30,194 Speaker 3: What does fertilize mean? 380 00:19:30,514 --> 00:19:31,314 Speaker 2: Well, it means that. 381 00:19:31,234 --> 00:19:33,313 Speaker 1: The mummy chicken and the daddy chicken, and. 382 00:19:35,194 --> 00:19:37,074 Speaker 3: Then the other eggs are just mummy chicken. 383 00:19:37,474 --> 00:19:41,194 Speaker 2: Okay, okay, got it. The other eggs are basically periods. 384 00:19:41,274 --> 00:19:41,474 Speaker 3: Yeah. 385 00:19:41,554 --> 00:19:41,914 Speaker 2: Period. 386 00:19:42,514 --> 00:19:44,154 Speaker 3: So she was quite lucky to I mean, it didn't 387 00:19:44,154 --> 00:19:46,274 Speaker 3: work out, but she was lucky to get Yeah. 388 00:19:46,994 --> 00:19:51,234 Speaker 2: Just for the one to our chicken experts listening or like, 389 00:19:51,314 --> 00:19:53,114 Speaker 2: you got that wrong, Holly, But that's the general. 390 00:19:53,594 --> 00:19:55,514 Speaker 3: You don't just have one detail in that book. 391 00:19:56,034 --> 00:19:56,834 Speaker 1: You were stuck on it. 392 00:19:57,834 --> 00:19:59,914 Speaker 3: Of all the things, we need to circle back to 393 00:19:59,914 --> 00:20:00,274 Speaker 3: the eggs. 394 00:20:00,354 --> 00:20:03,354 Speaker 2: So when did you begin to get an inkling of 395 00:20:03,394 --> 00:20:04,794 Speaker 2: whey you thought the story was going. 396 00:20:05,034 --> 00:20:08,954 Speaker 1: I knew that that was his name, so Mulligan, Mulligan, Yeah, 397 00:20:09,074 --> 00:20:11,474 Speaker 1: I knew that he was in with Worm from the beginning, 398 00:20:11,994 --> 00:20:17,234 Speaker 1: the way that he would protect him and legals and 399 00:20:17,354 --> 00:20:19,234 Speaker 1: law and blah blah blah. I was like, he has 400 00:20:19,394 --> 00:20:23,874 Speaker 1: him absolutely, and just having so you knew that Worm 401 00:20:24,074 --> 00:20:26,274 Speaker 1: had something on him, yes, and that there was some 402 00:20:26,314 --> 00:20:28,834 Speaker 1: sort of police corruption going on, and that he wasn't 403 00:20:28,834 --> 00:20:30,674 Speaker 1: a good guy. And there were all these subtleties of 404 00:20:30,834 --> 00:20:32,674 Speaker 1: just the way that he spoke to her or the 405 00:20:32,714 --> 00:20:35,074 Speaker 1: way that he directed her or whatever. Where I went, 406 00:20:35,634 --> 00:20:38,273 Speaker 1: there's something going on there. I thought it would have 407 00:20:38,314 --> 00:20:42,194 Speaker 1: been too obvious if Worm was responsible for the murder. 408 00:20:42,234 --> 00:20:45,033 Speaker 1: I was like, no, that's not going to have happened. 409 00:20:44,754 --> 00:20:46,474 Speaker 3: Because he's already made out to be a bad guy 410 00:20:46,474 --> 00:20:47,914 Speaker 3: from the beginning where he's the. 411 00:20:47,834 --> 00:20:50,194 Speaker 2: Dodgy drug dealer around town from early. 412 00:20:50,514 --> 00:20:54,074 Speaker 1: Yeah, I quite liked that he kept coming up and 413 00:20:54,074 --> 00:20:55,794 Speaker 1: that there was this thing about not being able to 414 00:20:55,874 --> 00:20:58,794 Speaker 1: interview him and stuff. Who did you think had done it? 415 00:20:59,234 --> 00:21:01,634 Speaker 3: This was like the first book in a long time 416 00:21:01,714 --> 00:21:05,354 Speaker 3: where I absolutely had no idea. At first, I thought 417 00:21:05,434 --> 00:21:08,834 Speaker 3: it was Chester. The minute we were introduced to Chester, 418 00:21:08,874 --> 00:21:10,034 Speaker 3: I was like, there, he is our killer. 419 00:21:10,234 --> 00:21:13,514 Speaker 2: So did I. But then that was good because he wasn't. 420 00:21:13,474 --> 00:21:16,474 Speaker 3: Yeah, and he was still like a not a cool person, 421 00:21:16,634 --> 00:21:18,554 Speaker 3: like no making her go to the dance. 422 00:21:19,034 --> 00:21:20,674 Speaker 2: No, you should have known, I know. 423 00:21:21,234 --> 00:21:23,674 Speaker 1: I think he was just naive. Yeah, And then I 424 00:21:23,674 --> 00:21:26,874 Speaker 1: started to suspect the son, Josh, yeah, when he kind 425 00:21:26,874 --> 00:21:28,954 Speaker 1: of had his alcohol problem and he turned up on 426 00:21:28,994 --> 00:21:31,794 Speaker 1: the couch and then there was the fire, and I went, oh, 427 00:21:31,834 --> 00:21:33,234 Speaker 1: there's something fishy going on here. 428 00:21:33,314 --> 00:21:35,634 Speaker 3: And then I suspected the mum, Chester's mum. 429 00:21:35,954 --> 00:21:36,313 Speaker 2: Yeah right. 430 00:21:36,394 --> 00:21:38,513 Speaker 3: It was like a protective thing over Chester. 431 00:21:38,714 --> 00:21:41,513 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the lady of the house. Yeah, yeah, right. 432 00:21:42,194 --> 00:21:46,314 Speaker 3: So Mulligan was a real surprise to me. I actually 433 00:21:46,314 --> 00:21:48,354 Speaker 3: didn't guess that until it happened. 434 00:21:48,434 --> 00:21:52,114 Speaker 2: I think what's masterful is that you're right, Jesse, that 435 00:21:53,074 --> 00:21:55,714 Speaker 2: there was always something a bit off about him, But 436 00:21:55,794 --> 00:21:58,793 Speaker 2: it was believable enough that that's just how a middle 437 00:21:58,834 --> 00:22:02,434 Speaker 2: aged white detective guy would talk. Like we know how 438 00:22:02,434 --> 00:22:04,914 Speaker 2: he kept sort of cock blocking her a bit with 439 00:22:04,994 --> 00:22:07,474 Speaker 2: her inquiries and wanting to take control of the investigation 440 00:22:07,634 --> 00:22:10,073 Speaker 2: and this and that and discouraging her from the like. 441 00:22:10,554 --> 00:22:12,593 Speaker 2: That was believable that he would do that, even if 442 00:22:12,634 --> 00:22:16,754 Speaker 2: he wasn't a dodgy guy. My only criticism of this book, 443 00:22:16,754 --> 00:22:18,794 Speaker 2: if I have one, and It's not really criticism, because 444 00:22:18,834 --> 00:22:22,313 Speaker 2: I did really love it, but I did feel that 445 00:22:22,794 --> 00:22:26,754 Speaker 2: when it was revealed, it all happened very quickly. Do 446 00:22:26,834 --> 00:22:29,833 Speaker 2: you agree? Like, I feel like the pacing of that 447 00:22:29,914 --> 00:22:32,234 Speaker 2: first half of the book was great and beautiful and 448 00:22:32,554 --> 00:22:35,074 Speaker 2: very much matched the mood, but the amount of time 449 00:22:35,114 --> 00:22:36,994 Speaker 2: I spent in these different worlds and all that stuff. 450 00:22:37,114 --> 00:22:39,954 Speaker 2: But then once it did tip into oh it's him. 451 00:22:40,074 --> 00:22:42,114 Speaker 2: Oh that's what happened. Oh, it was kind of like 452 00:22:43,154 --> 00:22:44,154 Speaker 2: did do you do? You agree? 453 00:22:44,394 --> 00:22:47,313 Speaker 1: Yeah? I had to kind of sit with the idea 454 00:22:47,394 --> 00:22:50,474 Speaker 1: that Bessie had been in some kind of captivity for 455 00:22:50,754 --> 00:22:51,554 Speaker 1: that many years. 456 00:22:51,634 --> 00:22:53,714 Speaker 2: Yeah. The timeline did throw me a few times. 457 00:22:53,794 --> 00:22:55,553 Speaker 1: Yeah, was it thirty five years she was meant to 458 00:22:55,554 --> 00:22:55,994 Speaker 1: have been here? 459 00:22:56,074 --> 00:22:59,954 Speaker 2: Yes, because the book is set in two thousands. Yes, Yeah, 460 00:22:59,994 --> 00:23:02,874 Speaker 2: it happened in the sixties, so this is a long did. 461 00:23:02,754 --> 00:23:05,634 Speaker 1: She's basically not like And I just kept thinking about 462 00:23:05,674 --> 00:23:07,874 Speaker 1: what that would do to someone's head health, and like, 463 00:23:08,554 --> 00:23:11,674 Speaker 1: how when did she have a baby and have been 464 00:23:11,714 --> 00:23:12,474 Speaker 1: a clean. 465 00:23:12,234 --> 00:23:14,354 Speaker 3: Ager and then she was rescued when she was in 466 00:23:14,394 --> 00:23:15,154 Speaker 3: her fifties? 467 00:23:15,434 --> 00:23:15,674 Speaker 2: Yeah? 468 00:23:15,714 --> 00:23:19,234 Speaker 3: And also what confused me was I feel like, if 469 00:23:19,314 --> 00:23:23,954 Speaker 3: you were conditioned in that upbringing for so many years 470 00:23:23,954 --> 00:23:27,434 Speaker 3: of your life, I don't think you would automatically just 471 00:23:27,474 --> 00:23:30,634 Speaker 3: be like, yeah, let's go, like I want to hear here. Yeah, 472 00:23:30,674 --> 00:23:32,553 Speaker 3: But there was no like I wanted to see more 473 00:23:32,634 --> 00:23:35,674 Speaker 3: of like a mental struggle from Betsy, because that's what 474 00:23:35,714 --> 00:23:36,554 Speaker 3: she would have gone through. 475 00:23:36,834 --> 00:23:40,834 Speaker 1: Yes, I agree, kind of like Stockholm syndrome. I didn't 476 00:23:40,914 --> 00:23:45,834 Speaker 1: quite know where she sat and what her life had 477 00:23:45,834 --> 00:23:48,273 Speaker 1: looked like for all of those years. I kind of 478 00:23:48,314 --> 00:23:50,274 Speaker 1: had questions about that. So I went, do I find 479 00:23:50,274 --> 00:23:53,033 Speaker 1: that believable? And I was like, it's interesting that she's alive, 480 00:23:53,594 --> 00:23:54,194 Speaker 1: Like that is it? 481 00:23:54,314 --> 00:23:57,394 Speaker 2: Yeah? And I was quite glad that she was alive. Like, 482 00:23:57,794 --> 00:24:00,994 Speaker 2: I know that sounds silly because we'd already lost you know, 483 00:24:01,114 --> 00:24:05,794 Speaker 2: Dawn and Caroline, who you really liked, well, I really 484 00:24:05,954 --> 00:24:08,833 Speaker 2: liked her a lot. And God in those early chapters 485 00:24:08,874 --> 00:24:10,994 Speaker 2: where she's like going in the car with Bessie. 486 00:24:10,874 --> 00:24:13,314 Speaker 1: Just like, don't get in the car with like in. 487 00:24:13,274 --> 00:24:15,714 Speaker 2: The thinking all the time. But in a way it 488 00:24:15,794 --> 00:24:18,394 Speaker 2: was great that we didn't have another dead woman. Yes, 489 00:24:18,674 --> 00:24:20,513 Speaker 2: but just for me, that was just a little bit 490 00:24:20,554 --> 00:24:22,793 Speaker 2: where the pacing went off, because I suddenly felt it 491 00:24:22,834 --> 00:24:25,674 Speaker 2: was like and then all that happened, and then Renees 492 00:24:25,674 --> 00:24:27,994 Speaker 2: explaining it to Stacey and Roger, and that's all very 493 00:24:28,074 --> 00:24:29,514 Speaker 2: you know, I don't know, it just kind of fell 494 00:24:29,554 --> 00:24:31,434 Speaker 2: into place very quickly. 495 00:24:31,514 --> 00:24:36,754 Speaker 1: I felt as though everything was incredibly believable. And then 496 00:24:36,834 --> 00:24:39,954 Speaker 1: what what I struggled with two was when she was 497 00:24:40,034 --> 00:24:43,954 Speaker 1: shot in the shoulder and she was kind of running, 498 00:24:44,434 --> 00:24:48,754 Speaker 1: but then she still pursued going and arresting Mulligan or something, 499 00:24:48,794 --> 00:24:51,114 Speaker 1: and I'm kind of going. I always find is hard 500 00:24:51,114 --> 00:24:54,514 Speaker 1: in crime shows. I'm like, pink shot is like really serious, 501 00:24:54,634 --> 00:24:56,234 Speaker 1: like you're bleeding, Like, how are you? 502 00:24:56,314 --> 00:24:59,314 Speaker 2: Then adrenaline, Jessie, It's adrenaline. 503 00:24:59,634 --> 00:25:03,634 Speaker 1: I just kind of went. It got very action packed, 504 00:25:03,914 --> 00:25:07,394 Speaker 1: which often a third act does. That's true, I'm not 505 00:25:07,434 --> 00:25:11,914 Speaker 1: sure it necessarily needed that, like it needed her to 506 00:25:11,954 --> 00:25:16,834 Speaker 1: be this hero who did everything herself. I struggle with 507 00:25:16,874 --> 00:25:21,154 Speaker 1: that a bit. But what I really what really stayed 508 00:25:21,194 --> 00:25:26,114 Speaker 1: with me was Caroline and the way that sort of 509 00:25:26,114 --> 00:25:29,914 Speaker 1: the stolen generation theme was brought in. 510 00:25:30,674 --> 00:25:32,354 Speaker 2: How scared she was that they were going to take 511 00:25:32,354 --> 00:25:32,754 Speaker 2: the baby. 512 00:25:32,954 --> 00:25:36,954 Speaker 1: Yeah, speaking of like fear of authority, fear of institutions, 513 00:25:36,994 --> 00:25:41,474 Speaker 1: which is something that intergenerationally has impacted aboriginal communities, like, 514 00:25:42,114 --> 00:25:46,274 Speaker 1: you understand why you would have such apprehension about walking 515 00:25:46,274 --> 00:25:49,194 Speaker 1: into a hospital and thinking they're going to take this 516 00:25:49,234 --> 00:25:51,874 Speaker 1: baby away from me, like that is in living memory. 517 00:25:52,354 --> 00:25:55,154 Speaker 1: And her fear and the questions from the doctor, yeah, 518 00:25:55,154 --> 00:25:59,474 Speaker 1: the question the doctor and the doctor's suddenly like, oh. 519 00:25:59,074 --> 00:26:00,954 Speaker 2: Who's the father of that baby? 520 00:26:01,194 --> 00:26:04,074 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know the mom might become like that was 521 00:26:04,234 --> 00:26:09,114 Speaker 1: just awful. And I did wonder when she got back 522 00:26:09,114 --> 00:26:11,234 Speaker 1: to the camp, and I know this needed to happen. 523 00:26:11,274 --> 00:26:12,994 Speaker 1: I know she needed to go and save Bessie, but 524 00:26:13,034 --> 00:26:16,514 Speaker 1: I was like, mate, we're cutting Bessie loose. We are 525 00:26:16,594 --> 00:26:19,994 Speaker 1: looking after that gorgeous little baby. And the fact that 526 00:26:20,034 --> 00:26:22,594 Speaker 1: she left and that it was kind of an accident 527 00:26:22,594 --> 00:26:25,074 Speaker 1: that she died. Maybe I found that slightly unsatisfying. 528 00:26:26,074 --> 00:26:29,954 Speaker 3: I think it shows also how important community was for her, 529 00:26:30,474 --> 00:26:32,754 Speaker 3: Like she wanted to stay because she said she wanted 530 00:26:32,754 --> 00:26:35,034 Speaker 3: her sister, She needed her sister to be there for her. 531 00:26:35,434 --> 00:26:39,354 Speaker 3: And then she couldn't imagine leaving Bessie for the second time, 532 00:26:40,314 --> 00:26:43,674 Speaker 3: and just like after giving birth and then getting on 533 00:26:43,714 --> 00:26:46,834 Speaker 3: a bike and then riding to find your best friend 534 00:26:46,874 --> 00:26:49,074 Speaker 3: and then getting knocked over ry truck and getting back 535 00:26:49,114 --> 00:26:53,594 Speaker 3: on the bike and then dying for her. Essentially, she 536 00:26:53,634 --> 00:26:55,834 Speaker 3: went to rescue her and she got killed. 537 00:26:56,314 --> 00:26:58,033 Speaker 1: I suppose I was looking at it going, if you 538 00:26:58,074 --> 00:26:59,793 Speaker 1: were Mulligan, or if you were that sergeant or a 539 00:26:59,794 --> 00:27:02,514 Speaker 1: few were that family, I don't know why you'd keep 540 00:27:02,514 --> 00:27:05,634 Speaker 1: Bessie around, Like I just I know that they said, 541 00:27:06,634 --> 00:27:07,954 Speaker 1: you know that they going to kill her or whatever. 542 00:27:07,994 --> 00:27:10,033 Speaker 1: But I was like, these are a bunch of bad guys, Like, 543 00:27:10,434 --> 00:27:13,194 Speaker 1: I don't know why if you had a witness to 544 00:27:13,234 --> 00:27:13,754 Speaker 1: what you did. 545 00:27:13,874 --> 00:27:16,794 Speaker 3: But I thought it was because Mulligan's dad fell in. 546 00:27:16,714 --> 00:27:18,794 Speaker 2: Love with her. Oh I don't think it was love. 547 00:27:18,914 --> 00:27:24,474 Speaker 2: I think it was yeah, yeah, I think he was yeah, yeah, 548 00:27:24,914 --> 00:27:28,474 Speaker 2: But I think she became basically, you know, a slave, 549 00:27:28,554 --> 00:27:31,553 Speaker 2: didn't she a slave? And it was I mean, this 550 00:27:31,634 --> 00:27:33,674 Speaker 2: is always the thing about I was thinking, this is 551 00:27:33,674 --> 00:27:35,994 Speaker 2: a bit like in Trent Dalton's latest book, is that 552 00:27:36,074 --> 00:27:40,074 Speaker 2: when you find out that somebody who you've spent a 553 00:27:40,074 --> 00:27:42,914 Speaker 2: bit of time within a book is like properly crazy, 554 00:27:43,154 --> 00:27:45,474 Speaker 2: Like the way that Mulligan at the end when he's 555 00:27:45,474 --> 00:27:48,114 Speaker 2: with Bessie in the shed and everything, you're like, oh, 556 00:27:48,194 --> 00:27:52,034 Speaker 2: he's a crazy person, Like you know, he thinks whatever. 557 00:27:52,074 --> 00:27:55,594 Speaker 2: The reality is that he's constructed where Bessie likes being 558 00:27:55,674 --> 00:27:59,154 Speaker 2: there and you know he's cooking, she's cooking whatever. Like 559 00:27:59,994 --> 00:28:02,513 Speaker 2: it's always a jolt because you're like, oh, you're a 560 00:28:02,554 --> 00:28:05,954 Speaker 2: properly crazy person, and that's a hard thing to deliver. 561 00:28:06,074 --> 00:28:08,874 Speaker 2: Really well. I think I did believe that part of it. 562 00:28:09,314 --> 00:28:11,474 Speaker 2: I just as I say, I just found the pacing 563 00:28:11,554 --> 00:28:13,994 Speaker 2: quite fast. And then the last chapters, which were like 564 00:28:14,994 --> 00:28:16,834 Speaker 2: and then I went back there and we saw everybody 565 00:28:16,834 --> 00:28:18,994 Speaker 2: again and everything was fine, Like I just found all 566 00:28:19,114 --> 00:28:22,234 Speaker 2: that a little bit. But I do know how hard 567 00:28:22,234 --> 00:28:24,674 Speaker 2: it is to pace out a complicated ending of a book. 568 00:28:24,754 --> 00:28:28,474 Speaker 2: So and it was. It was. I was very happy 569 00:28:28,514 --> 00:28:32,314 Speaker 2: that there was a relative, a relatively happy ending. 570 00:28:32,514 --> 00:28:37,074 Speaker 1: Yes, and that the truth was finally revealed from both 571 00:28:37,114 --> 00:28:42,074 Speaker 1: of those storylines like that was. I enjoyed that. And 572 00:28:42,114 --> 00:28:44,474 Speaker 1: I know how hard it is to land that plane. 573 00:28:44,514 --> 00:28:45,914 Speaker 1: It's like to have that many balls in the air, 574 00:28:45,954 --> 00:28:48,874 Speaker 1: to have that level of tension, and to pull it off, 575 00:28:48,914 --> 00:28:52,154 Speaker 1: which I do think she pulled it off, is masterful. Like, 576 00:28:52,354 --> 00:28:55,354 Speaker 1: especially for a debut, you just go that is a 577 00:28:55,394 --> 00:28:58,634 Speaker 1: hard book to write. It's just one of those books 578 00:28:58,674 --> 00:29:00,474 Speaker 1: I think I will be thinking about for a long time. 579 00:29:00,554 --> 00:29:02,234 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd love to know what all the out Loud 580 00:29:02,234 --> 00:29:05,114 Speaker 2: has thought about the twist about who it turned out 581 00:29:05,154 --> 00:29:08,474 Speaker 2: to be, if they'd had other theories, other ideas. The 582 00:29:08,514 --> 00:29:11,074 Speaker 2: good news for everybody is that, because this book is 583 00:29:11,114 --> 00:29:13,634 Speaker 2: so wonderful and so successful, Angie Fay Martin is writing 584 00:29:13,634 --> 00:29:16,674 Speaker 2: a sequel, and it is going to have Renee Taylor 585 00:29:16,674 --> 00:29:18,354 Speaker 2: in it. It's going to be set a bit further 586 00:29:18,394 --> 00:29:20,194 Speaker 2: out west. It's going to have to do with her dad, 587 00:29:20,594 --> 00:29:22,194 Speaker 2: because you know how at the end of she goes 588 00:29:22,234 --> 00:29:24,634 Speaker 2: to find her dad. At the minute, it's working title 589 00:29:24,674 --> 00:29:27,434 Speaker 2: is Sandalwood. She said on the podcast I heard, so 590 00:29:28,394 --> 00:29:31,514 Speaker 2: I'm stoked to be in that world again. Yeah, because 591 00:29:31,634 --> 00:29:35,514 Speaker 2: and be inside that writer's head again. Because I loved it. 592 00:29:35,594 --> 00:29:38,594 Speaker 2: I felt like I I mean, I learned a lot 593 00:29:38,674 --> 00:29:41,594 Speaker 2: that sounds patronizing and wrong, like I felt like I did. 594 00:29:41,914 --> 00:29:43,914 Speaker 2: If one of her points was an invitation to empathy, 595 00:29:43,914 --> 00:29:46,674 Speaker 2: I very much felt that. But I also just loved 596 00:29:46,674 --> 00:29:50,434 Speaker 2: it as a crime novel, to roll through and find 597 00:29:50,474 --> 00:29:52,074 Speaker 2: out what had happened, you know, it was just a 598 00:29:52,394 --> 00:29:52,794 Speaker 2: good reason. 599 00:29:53,154 --> 00:29:57,074 Speaker 1: She's a really good protagonist, and a lot of crime 600 00:29:57,114 --> 00:29:59,714 Speaker 1: novelists have one that they follow into a few different places. 601 00:29:59,714 --> 00:30:02,794 Speaker 1: Sarah Bailey is another one who's done it. You just 602 00:30:03,154 --> 00:30:05,754 Speaker 1: trust them. And I think that the thing about Renee 603 00:30:05,874 --> 00:30:08,034 Speaker 1: is that she has licensed to go into places that 604 00:30:08,194 --> 00:30:11,074 Speaker 1: literally no crime novel in Australia has ever gone before, 605 00:30:11,514 --> 00:30:13,754 Speaker 1: and so that's just exciting to think where she could 606 00:30:14,114 --> 00:30:14,634 Speaker 1: take it. 607 00:30:15,154 --> 00:30:17,634 Speaker 2: So that is Mala Luka by Andie Fay Martin. I 608 00:30:17,794 --> 00:30:20,114 Speaker 2: hope out Louders that you have enjoyed being with us 609 00:30:20,154 --> 00:30:21,354 Speaker 2: on these book club episodes. 610 00:30:21,434 --> 00:30:22,514 Speaker 3: This is so much fun. 611 00:30:22,634 --> 00:30:25,714 Speaker 1: I never want them to know, well, we might come back. 612 00:30:25,794 --> 00:30:28,154 Speaker 2: We might come back with book club for different reasons, 613 00:30:28,194 --> 00:30:30,154 Speaker 2: different seasons, different occasions. 614 00:30:30,234 --> 00:30:32,314 Speaker 1: We want you always. Honestly, most of the books that 615 00:30:32,354 --> 00:30:34,034 Speaker 1: I pick up are because out loud is post time 616 00:30:34,354 --> 00:30:38,074 Speaker 1: in the group. So please keep sending your recommendations. 617 00:30:37,314 --> 00:30:40,594 Speaker 2: Keep telling us about the books you love. We'll keep 618 00:30:40,594 --> 00:30:42,874 Speaker 2: telling you about the books we love. Yeah, it's been 619 00:30:43,074 --> 00:30:43,674 Speaker 2: really great. 620 00:30:43,874 --> 00:30:46,354 Speaker 1: Out Louders, thank you so much for being part of 621 00:30:46,394 --> 00:30:49,554 Speaker 1: our third summer book Club. We'll be back in your 622 00:30:49,594 --> 00:30:52,514 Speaker 1: ears this week. Bye bye bye. 623 00:30:57,314 --> 00:31:00,514 Speaker 3: Mammy acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which 624 00:31:00,554 --> 00:31:01,954 Speaker 3: we have recorded this podcast.