WEBVTT - The Twisted True Dating Story Behind Asher Keddie's ‘FAKE’ 0:00:10.405 --> 0:00:13.125 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 0:00:13.925 --> 0:00:16.885 Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:16.885 --> 0:00:27.845 that this podcast is recorded on For MoMA Mia, this 0:00:27.885 --> 0:00:31.125 is no filter. I'm mea Friedman and I wanted to 0:00:31.165 --> 0:00:34.605 pop a little extra bonus episode into the feed this 0:00:34.645 --> 0:00:38.365 week because a lot of people have been talking about 0:00:38.485 --> 0:00:42.405 the new series called Fake that stars Asha Ketty, about 0:00:42.405 --> 0:00:44.765 a woman who falls in love with a con man, 0:00:45.245 --> 0:00:48.565 and today we wanted to bring you the true story 0:00:48.805 --> 0:00:51.765 of the woman in that series in an interview that 0:00:51.805 --> 0:00:54.445 I did with Stephanie Wood, who is played by Asher 0:00:54.725 --> 0:00:57.645 in Fake. I did this interview a couple of years 0:00:57.645 --> 0:01:01.325 ago with Stephanie. She's in her late forties or she 0:01:01.525 --> 0:01:03.565 was when she decided to go on a date with 0:01:03.645 --> 0:01:06.845 a guy she met online. And she'd been online dating 0:01:06.845 --> 0:01:09.525 for a while and had found it pretty unsatisfying, as 0:01:09.525 --> 0:01:12.805 many people do. So when she met this guy called Joe, 0:01:13.085 --> 0:01:17.725 who is handsome and charming and seemingly different from the others, 0:01:18.405 --> 0:01:21.485 she fell for him. She felt pretty hard and pretty fast, 0:01:21.565 --> 0:01:24.085 and she had no idea that it would change the 0:01:24.125 --> 0:01:27.845 course of her life forever now. Stephanie is an award 0:01:27.845 --> 0:01:31.485 winning journalist and an author. She's smart, she's experienced, and 0:01:31.525 --> 0:01:36.045 she does not stand for bullshit. But when she met Joe, 0:01:36.085 --> 0:01:39.285 all of that sort of fell away, because, as we know, 0:01:39.525 --> 0:01:42.485 love does funny things to the brain, and Joe turned 0:01:42.485 --> 0:01:46.845 out to be well, as the name suggests, a total fake. 0:01:47.845 --> 0:01:51.365 And fake also became the name of Stephanie's book, which 0:01:51.405 --> 0:01:54.525 is now the name of this new series on Paramount Plus. 0:01:54.845 --> 0:01:59.605 It stars Asha Ketty as Stephanie and David Wenham as Joe. 0:01:59.685 --> 0:02:02.605 It's being hailed as a love and lies fueled thriller, 0:02:03.165 --> 0:02:05.285 and this is the true story behind it from the 0:02:05.325 --> 0:02:10.125 woman who lived it. Here's Stephanie Wood. Steph When you 0:02:10.205 --> 0:02:13.645 met Joe, what was your first contact like with him? 0:02:14.085 --> 0:02:17.525 It was we met through online dating and we caught 0:02:17.605 --> 0:02:19.325 up for a drink at a bar in the city 0:02:19.445 --> 0:02:22.285 in Sydney. There were no sparks for me and I 0:02:22.805 --> 0:02:25.405 don't thin for either of us really, although who knows 0:02:25.445 --> 0:02:29.005 what he ever felt. I thought he was a little awkward. 0:02:29.125 --> 0:02:31.245 I thought he was a bit short, which he proved 0:02:31.285 --> 0:02:33.205 not to be. Must have been hunched and down in 0:02:33.205 --> 0:02:36.365 that chair. He talked a lot about himself, and women 0:02:36.365 --> 0:02:38.645 are pretty used to men talking a lot about themselves 0:02:38.685 --> 0:02:43.685 and I sort of peppered the conversation with questions, which 0:02:43.685 --> 0:02:46.285 as a journalist you learned to do to keep conversations going. 0:02:47.045 --> 0:02:48.565 I think we were there for a couple of drinks 0:02:48.565 --> 0:02:51.725 and said goodbye, and I didn't imagine i'd see him again. 0:02:52.285 --> 0:02:55.285 How long had you been online dating for and what's 0:02:55.325 --> 0:02:57.085 it like as a woman. 0:02:58.605 --> 0:03:01.045 Yeah, I hadn't been doing it for a long time. 0:03:01.085 --> 0:03:03.085 I've not done a lot of it because I find 0:03:03.125 --> 0:03:04.405 it so awful. 0:03:04.845 --> 0:03:05.605 Why is it awful? 0:03:05.925 --> 0:03:09.685 Oh, I guess the caliber of men you're meeting. I'm 0:03:09.725 --> 0:03:13.725 sorry to say, I find it hugely awkward. The sort 0:03:13.725 --> 0:03:16.565 of walking into a space, a bar, a restaurant to 0:03:16.605 --> 0:03:19.765 meet someone that you've never ever set eyes on before, 0:03:19.925 --> 0:03:23.645 and you have no context for who they are. It's awkward. 0:03:23.965 --> 0:03:27.765 They're usually incredibly disappointing. I think a friend pushed me 0:03:27.805 --> 0:03:30.845 into it right back in about probably around two thousand 0:03:30.885 --> 0:03:32.405 and five, when i'd broken up with the guy I 0:03:32.405 --> 0:03:34.605 thought I was going to marry. I think maybe it 0:03:34.645 --> 0:03:35.765 was just starting around then. 0:03:35.925 --> 0:03:40.125 So you're in your thirties then, late thirties, yeah, late thirties. 0:03:40.205 --> 0:03:42.605 If you're a woman in your late thirties, what kind 0:03:42.605 --> 0:03:43.685 of men are on the apps. 0:03:44.525 --> 0:03:48.685 Well, of course, it's widely variable. I was looking for 0:03:48.765 --> 0:03:51.325 intelligent guys, which I mean, is that okay? I mean, 0:03:51.445 --> 0:03:54.805 you know, I suppose I wanted someone who seemed to 0:03:54.845 --> 0:03:56.405 have a bit of wish about them and a bit 0:03:56.445 --> 0:04:00.605 of humor. I've never sort of had a physical checklist 0:04:00.605 --> 0:04:02.845 at all. If I were to be honest, I don't 0:04:02.845 --> 0:04:06.285 want someone who's short. But apart from that, I'm fairly 0:04:06.445 --> 0:04:08.645 open to, you know, physical imperfection. 0:04:09.325 --> 0:04:11.245 Did you decide who to swipe left on and who 0:04:11.245 --> 0:04:11.525 to see? 0:04:11.565 --> 0:04:12.725 Well, in those days it was a bit different. The 0:04:12.765 --> 0:04:15.325 tinder didn't exist, and I've only ever used hinder once 0:04:15.405 --> 0:04:18.085 in my life. It was just looking at what their 0:04:18.085 --> 0:04:21.485 interests were mainly, and their political leanings was important to me, 0:04:21.565 --> 0:04:24.605 I suppose, And how will they wrote? 0:04:25.445 --> 0:04:28.085 Yeah, tell me about that, because I imagine as you. 0:04:28.045 --> 0:04:32.525 Get more look at more and more profiles, you learn 0:04:32.725 --> 0:04:36.445 some some red flags and some green flags. 0:04:37.485 --> 0:04:39.685 I wouldn't know about red and green flags. It's more 0:04:39.725 --> 0:04:41.285 about what you like and what you don't like. 0:04:41.325 --> 0:04:43.725 I kind of more mean that like yeah, you go, 0:04:43.805 --> 0:04:45.325 oh yeah, I'm someone. 0:04:45.045 --> 0:04:50.845 Who speaks intelligent, writes intelligently, and well without spelling mistakes. 0:04:50.805 --> 0:04:51.885 High bar for a journalist. 0:04:52.205 --> 0:04:53.805 Well, it is a high barb. But is that such 0:04:53.805 --> 0:04:56.485 a high bar for someone I don't know? Isn't that 0:04:56.645 --> 0:05:01.365 a fairly for an moderately intelligent person. Isn't that half 0:05:01.365 --> 0:05:03.725 decent writing skills? Like I don't know. Maybe I am 0:05:03.805 --> 0:05:04.885 too fussy about that. 0:05:05.805 --> 0:05:06.605 I doubt yourself. 0:05:06.765 --> 0:05:09.045 But you like what you like, you like what you like. 0:05:09.325 --> 0:05:11.445 That was always important, And I guess I was looking 0:05:11.445 --> 0:05:15.125 for compassion, someone who was thoughtful and compassionate and sincere. 0:05:15.845 --> 0:05:16.485 Women in their. 0:05:16.445 --> 0:05:22.285 Late thirties are notorious for scaring men because of the 0:05:22.325 --> 0:05:27.325 whole biological clo of course situation. Did you find that 0:05:27.325 --> 0:05:29.845 that was kind of a subtext in all the. 0:05:29.965 --> 0:05:33.965 No, And this is incredibly weird. I imagine for women 0:05:34.005 --> 0:05:36.045 who are in their late thirties now to hear who 0:05:36.165 --> 0:05:38.645 was still looking. And I wrote an article for Good 0:05:38.645 --> 0:05:43.565 Weekend about this, probably in twenty sixteen. I think it 0:05:43.645 --> 0:05:47.565 was about not having had children. There was so little 0:05:47.685 --> 0:05:51.605 said back then about women's fertility. It really was. And 0:05:51.725 --> 0:05:55.205 I've googled, I've gone back through the archives of newspaper 0:05:55.285 --> 0:05:58.445 archives to see how much was written about women's fertility 0:05:58.485 --> 0:06:01.965 and declining fertility, and very little was written. I think 0:06:02.005 --> 0:06:04.165 I was probably little and I wanted to have kids, 0:06:04.165 --> 0:06:06.605 but I was a little like I wasn't. I don't 0:06:06.645 --> 0:06:09.645 think I ever had a surging biological clock, which I 0:06:09.685 --> 0:06:12.205 know a lot of women do. I was concerned. I 0:06:12.245 --> 0:06:13.925 did want to have them, but I don't I think 0:06:13.965 --> 0:06:16.205 I thought I could still have them in my forties. 0:06:16.845 --> 0:06:18.645 And as I said, there was just not a lot 0:06:18.725 --> 0:06:20.925 written about it. So you weren't necessarily looking for the 0:06:20.965 --> 0:06:23.565 father of you, you know. I don't which a lot 0:06:23.605 --> 0:06:26.125 of pressure was. Although the guy that I broke up with, 0:06:26.205 --> 0:06:29.125 who I had thought I might be with, he had 0:06:29.125 --> 0:06:31.245 some medical issues that could have affected his fertility, and 0:06:31.285 --> 0:06:34.565 we certainly had did talk to doctors about out what 0:06:34.645 --> 0:06:37.605 our chances might be. So it was obviously on my mind, 0:06:37.645 --> 0:06:40.285 but not in a panicked way, and I certainly would 0:06:40.325 --> 0:06:42.285 never have raised it. I don't think that was ever 0:06:42.525 --> 0:06:44.925 my thought. I don't think I ever went to any 0:06:44.925 --> 0:06:47.165 of these dates, and there would have only been back 0:06:47.205 --> 0:06:49.965 then about four or five six states, and I don't 0:06:49.965 --> 0:06:52.125 think it was on my mind. I think on my 0:06:52.205 --> 0:06:54.485 mind was is this guy nice? Is this guy decent? 0:06:54.605 --> 0:06:56.965 Is he someone I could spend time with. There was 0:06:57.005 --> 0:06:58.685 one really nice guy, but I don't think he was 0:06:58.765 --> 0:07:02.245 very much into me, which is okay, devastating blow at 0:07:02.285 --> 0:07:04.605 the time, but you know, you move on from these things. 0:07:05.605 --> 0:07:08.725 Like there was one that I think probably ended that 0:07:08.885 --> 0:07:12.085 period online dating for me. We met for coffee one afternoon. 0:07:12.685 --> 0:07:15.525 He wanted to tell me he wasn't particularly good looking man, 0:07:15.685 --> 0:07:17.725 and that was fine, but he wanted to tell me 0:07:18.325 --> 0:07:21.245 about his recent holiday to India where he had visited 0:07:21.245 --> 0:07:24.885 a tantric sex ashram. But it had to have STD 0:07:25.045 --> 0:07:28.365 tests on the way in, And I just sat there 0:07:28.405 --> 0:07:31.205 with my coffee in front of me, going in my head, 0:07:31.885 --> 0:07:35.725 are you serious? You really really want to tell me 0:07:35.805 --> 0:07:38.245 about this on our first date. 0:07:38.405 --> 0:07:40.125 Well, at least did have the test? 0:07:40.405 --> 0:07:43.205 Well you sure, we never got to check that out. Really, 0:07:43.965 --> 0:07:46.445 But the funniest thing about it was that he recommended 0:07:46.805 --> 0:07:49.765 I'm not I don't dabble in the share market. But 0:07:49.805 --> 0:07:53.405 at the end of that encounter he said, oh, I've 0:07:53.445 --> 0:07:56.885 got this great share tip for you. When I got home, 0:07:56.925 --> 0:07:59.445 I actually happened for a very rare moment, I had 0:07:59.445 --> 0:08:01.525 some money in my bank account. I thought, bargot, I'm 0:08:01.525 --> 0:08:02.965 just going to go and buy some of those shares 0:08:03.005 --> 0:08:04.885 and then they actually gent me a bit of money, 0:08:05.325 --> 0:08:07.085 which I've sold them since. 0:08:07.205 --> 0:08:10.245 But he's self alighting on that very bad. 0:08:10.085 --> 0:08:12.565 That was exactly exactly and I sort of was so 0:08:12.565 --> 0:08:13.685 amused by it as well. 0:08:13.885 --> 0:08:17.485 What was it about Joe's dating profile that appealed to you? 0:08:17.885 --> 0:08:20.725 Again, He's writing, He could write, and he could express himself. 0:08:21.125 --> 0:08:23.045 It was articulate. He seemed to have a love for 0:08:23.085 --> 0:08:28.165 the environment and nature, the things that are important to me, politics, 0:08:28.245 --> 0:08:31.525 the current affairs the world, and a curiosity and an 0:08:31.565 --> 0:08:34.885 interest in the world. And that came through really strongly 0:08:35.125 --> 0:08:36.165 on his dating profile. 0:08:36.325 --> 0:08:39.165 In that first date. Did he tell you he had kids? 0:08:39.685 --> 0:08:42.765 Yeah, so that the foundational story was that he'd been 0:08:42.805 --> 0:08:47.645 through a fairly ugly divorce. At some point, possibly second 0:08:47.725 --> 0:08:49.605 third date, he started to lead on that his ex 0:08:49.605 --> 0:08:53.565 wife was completely psycho and why wouldn't I believe that, 0:08:53.605 --> 0:08:55.525 You know, there are people out there who have mental 0:08:55.525 --> 0:08:58.485 health problems. He was Now in hindsight, I can see 0:08:58.565 --> 0:09:02.605 quite cruel about how he talked about her, but at 0:09:02.605 --> 0:09:05.405 the time I took it on face value. He had 0:09:05.405 --> 0:09:07.565 custody one week on, one week off with his ex 0:09:07.605 --> 0:09:11.805 wife of two children and told me he lived in 0:09:11.885 --> 0:09:15.325 a harbourside house, that he'd a modest harbourside house in 0:09:15.365 --> 0:09:17.845 a well known suburb of Sydney that he'd built himself. 0:09:17.845 --> 0:09:20.485 And what he told me he was an architect or 0:09:20.565 --> 0:09:24.725 retired from architecture and had gone into private equity, and 0:09:24.725 --> 0:09:27.205 that he had a small sheep farm south south of Sydney. 0:09:27.845 --> 0:09:28.925 Was he your age? 0:09:29.165 --> 0:09:30.725 He was about three four years older. 0:09:30.485 --> 0:09:32.565 Than me, and you were in your early forties by now. 0:09:32.605 --> 0:09:34.685 I was, no. I was in my late forties by 0:09:34.685 --> 0:09:36.725 this stage. Yeah. 0:09:36.765 --> 0:09:38.965 Did he ask much about you on that first day? 0:09:39.685 --> 0:09:40.205 Not really. 0:09:40.725 --> 0:09:41.445 Eventually. 0:09:41.925 --> 0:09:43.885 I was getting a bit frustrated by that, because to me, 0:09:43.965 --> 0:09:46.805 that's a bit of a sign that someone's not particularly 0:09:46.805 --> 0:09:52.085 interested or has very inefficient communication skills. I've been a 0:09:52.085 --> 0:09:54.405 food and I'm not writing about food right now, but 0:09:54.445 --> 0:09:55.965 in my background I was a food writer and a 0:09:55.965 --> 0:09:59.365 restaurant critic. And he eventually asked me a little bit 0:09:59.405 --> 0:10:02.125 about that, and he made a comment that was probably 0:10:02.125 --> 0:10:05.605 the biggest red flag of that first date. He said, 0:10:05.645 --> 0:10:09.805 you must be very well connected, well, not especially, and 0:10:10.325 --> 0:10:12.685 it's not something I seek out. I'd run for a 0:10:12.725 --> 0:10:14.485 mile from the opening of an envelope sort of thing, 0:10:14.525 --> 0:10:17.045 you know, it's just not who I am, my world. 0:10:17.085 --> 0:10:20.205 I find it tedious. I said, oh no, no, no, 0:10:20.245 --> 0:10:22.685 not at all, not at all. He then did this 0:10:22.885 --> 0:10:26.965 incredible backtrack and sort of reversal of position, which I 0:10:27.005 --> 0:10:29.125 can now see he often would do when he had 0:10:29.205 --> 0:10:32.765 said something that wasn't didn't meet with my approval. I 0:10:32.765 --> 0:10:35.205 suppose he said, oh no, I wouldn't like it if 0:10:35.205 --> 0:10:37.845 you're well connected, because I'm very private. Even when I 0:10:37.845 --> 0:10:40.445 was an architect, I didn't like my work, our work, 0:10:40.525 --> 0:10:43.485 the firm's work being published. And in hindsight, I've got 0:10:43.565 --> 0:10:46.765 lots of architect friends and that's the holy grail, to 0:10:46.805 --> 0:10:49.365 get their work published in architectural magazines, and it's how 0:10:49.405 --> 0:10:52.405 you get business as well. So it was such a 0:10:52.485 --> 0:10:55.885 dumb thing for him to say. But I don't know 0:10:55.925 --> 0:10:58.885 that you're analyzing as much at that point. You sort 0:10:58.885 --> 0:11:02.525 of your mind is so busy sizing them up, I 0:11:02.525 --> 0:11:05.605 suppose physically, and trying to think of things to say 0:11:05.685 --> 0:11:09.205 and trying to keep the conversation flowing without it becoming 0:11:09.205 --> 0:11:12.405 awkward that I send something wasn't quite right, but I 0:11:12.485 --> 0:11:14.685 moved on. You kind of have to to keep it 0:11:14.725 --> 0:11:15.405 going in a way. 0:11:16.205 --> 0:11:20.245 How did that first unremarkable date turn into a second. 0:11:20.965 --> 0:11:23.325 Well, i'd been single for quite a few years, and 0:11:23.365 --> 0:11:25.165 when you've been single for quite a few years, you 0:11:25.245 --> 0:11:27.485 start to hear things like, oh, you're too fussy. Women 0:11:27.485 --> 0:11:30.845 shouldn't be so picky, and I've been bored, Like I 0:11:30.885 --> 0:11:33.965 have a full, interesting life, but that's a fairly substantial 0:11:34.005 --> 0:11:36.685 part of life, and when it's not there, it's like, oh, 0:11:36.725 --> 0:11:39.245 here we go again, not another night. It would be 0:11:39.325 --> 0:11:42.685 nice to be with someone. And so I wasn't expecting 0:11:42.685 --> 0:11:44.725 to hear from him, but he did email me and 0:11:44.805 --> 0:11:46.765 asked to help me out again, and I thought, oh, whatever, 0:11:46.925 --> 0:11:51.325 I'll go. And I think maybe what happens is that 0:11:52.725 --> 0:11:55.365 when someone starts to show interest in you, and it's 0:11:55.405 --> 0:11:57.885 quite clear that it's interest, your head does do a 0:11:57.885 --> 0:12:00.885 bit of a yes, three hundred and sixty degree degree turn, 0:12:01.885 --> 0:12:04.885 and it was like, oh my god, he's interested in me. Okay, 0:12:04.965 --> 0:12:07.485 let's have another look at this. And I remember going 0:12:07.525 --> 0:12:10.205 to that second day and being quite beside myself with nerves, 0:12:10.245 --> 0:12:12.125 which I hadn't been on the first one, Like I 0:12:12.205 --> 0:12:14.645 was just a bit nervy on the first one, but 0:12:14.685 --> 0:12:17.605 the second one I was like, oh my god, he's 0:12:17.645 --> 0:12:20.085 interested in me, and it was like the moment he 0:12:20.205 --> 0:12:22.605 registered interest in me, all of a sudden, the game 0:12:22.685 --> 0:12:25.405 changed a bit, which is silly. It's so silly because 0:12:25.405 --> 0:12:27.485 of something we do. It's something we do. We should 0:12:27.525 --> 0:12:34.925 be sizing up constantly for a long time, whether they're appropriate, suitable, honest, decent. 0:12:35.765 --> 0:12:40.725 But instead, I don't think it's uncommon. The moment someone's interested, 0:12:40.845 --> 0:12:45.125 it often changes the way you view the whole thing. 0:12:45.205 --> 0:12:49.205 That's such an important insight, isn't it. And I think 0:12:49.565 --> 0:12:53.405 I think as women were conditioned, Oh if he likes me, yeah, 0:12:53.445 --> 0:12:55.245 I better be not grateful. 0:12:55.285 --> 0:12:59.765 But oh yeah, no, no, yeah, gratitude, it's not that 0:12:59.965 --> 0:13:02.805 might well be the emotion. And I was never like 0:13:03.085 --> 0:13:05.125 the hottest girl at school or the one that had 0:13:05.165 --> 0:13:07.845 boys following me, So it had always been a bit 0:13:07.845 --> 0:13:10.005 exciting when a guy did express in me. And it 0:13:10.045 --> 0:13:13.085 wasn't as if it was uncommon, But it wasn't. It 0:13:13.165 --> 0:13:15.445 wasn't every minute of every day, as you know, in 0:13:15.445 --> 0:13:17.765 my twenties and thirties, when I was in the height 0:13:17.765 --> 0:13:18.365 of mind. 0:13:18.165 --> 0:13:19.485 And it had been a while since, and it had 0:13:19.525 --> 0:13:19.845 been a. 0:13:19.805 --> 0:13:24.125 While, so yeah, after a lot of disappointing dates and disappointing. 0:13:23.565 --> 0:13:25.085 Them a lot of time on my own. A lot 0:13:25.125 --> 0:13:26.965 of guys that are not a lot of guys, but 0:13:27.005 --> 0:13:28.885 there were certainly a couple of guys who turned out 0:13:28.885 --> 0:13:31.485 to be really dishonest, And thankfully it never went beyond 0:13:31.565 --> 0:13:35.045 a couple few days. But then what odd guys who? 0:13:35.245 --> 0:13:37.325 One who proved it turned out to be married. I 0:13:37.405 --> 0:13:39.365 got the sense that he was estranged from his wife. 0:13:39.525 --> 0:13:41.685 Turns out they were still living together and, according to him, 0:13:41.685 --> 0:13:43.005 had an open relationship. 0:13:43.285 --> 0:13:44.205 I wonder if she knew that. 0:13:44.285 --> 0:13:46.365 I wonder if she knew it was an open relationship. 0:13:46.365 --> 0:13:49.645 And then another one who turned out to be living 0:13:49.645 --> 0:13:53.645 with a girlfriend and didn't tell me. Thankfully, they didn't 0:13:53.685 --> 0:13:56.605 go very far, and I was pretty upset when I discovered. 0:13:56.605 --> 0:14:00.565 But not it was not so I wasn't so embedded 0:14:00.565 --> 0:14:03.245 in the relationship that it was devastating. It was that devastating. 0:14:03.285 --> 0:14:05.445 I mean, it's I think they leave their little marks 0:14:05.445 --> 0:14:05.805 on you. 0:14:06.605 --> 0:14:09.045 So Joe was clearly single and that was important. 0:14:09.845 --> 0:14:12.805 Well, yes, on the face of it, Well, yes, as 0:14:12.845 --> 0:14:13.685 we thought at that time. 0:14:14.005 --> 0:14:16.245 Now did things accelerate quite quickly? 0:14:16.365 --> 0:14:18.845 No, we still did it around a bit. The third 0:14:18.965 --> 0:14:23.645 date nearly didn't happen because he made another strange comment that, 0:14:23.685 --> 0:14:26.285 in hindsight, I should have taken us another red flag. 0:14:26.805 --> 0:14:29.405 We were discussing which restaurant we should go to, and 0:14:29.605 --> 0:14:31.645 I said, do you want me to book and he said, yeah, 0:14:31.645 --> 0:14:33.365 that'd be good. You know, it'll be interesting to see 0:14:33.365 --> 0:14:35.405 how the waiters react to you if they recognize you. 0:14:36.165 --> 0:14:38.885 And again it was because I was a food critic, 0:14:39.365 --> 0:14:41.045 but I'd mostly been a food critic when I lived 0:14:41.045 --> 0:14:43.405 in Melbourne. I hadn't done so much in Sydney, so 0:14:43.445 --> 0:14:46.845 I wasn't that well known here and that suited me. Fine. 0:14:47.285 --> 0:14:49.685 If you've ever been recognized by my waiter or a 0:14:49.725 --> 0:14:51.805 chef and a restaurant who thinks they're going to get 0:14:51.805 --> 0:14:54.285 a good review or they can get some benefit out 0:14:54.285 --> 0:14:55.125 of it, it's awful. 0:14:55.245 --> 0:14:55.805 It's awkward. 0:14:55.885 --> 0:14:58.805 Yeah, it's horrible, and I don't like that. And I 0:14:58.885 --> 0:15:01.165 got really crossed with him and I just slammed. We 0:15:01.165 --> 0:15:02.885 were emailing at that stage. We hadn't got to the 0:15:02.885 --> 0:15:05.805 point of having comfortable phone calls. Of course, email opens 0:15:05.885 --> 0:15:11.045 up all sorts of ways of both disemb and manipulating 0:15:11.165 --> 0:15:14.605 the conversation, and if we'd been talking on the phone, 0:15:14.685 --> 0:15:17.365 I might have perhaps picked up things better, but I 0:15:18.125 --> 0:15:20.765 just flung an angry response at him and said, you know, 0:15:20.805 --> 0:15:23.045 you've misunderstood me. That's not who I am at all. 0:15:23.765 --> 0:15:26.525 And then he somehow in another email a few days later, 0:15:26.565 --> 0:15:28.565 I said, so, I suppose we're not going out Saturday 0:15:28.645 --> 0:15:31.325 night then, and I said, no, I'm going away actually now, 0:15:31.765 --> 0:15:33.685 and he said, I really stuffed up. That wasn't what 0:15:33.725 --> 0:15:35.925 I meant at all. And now, damn it, I can't 0:15:35.965 --> 0:15:37.925 find an email he sent me because I've kept most 0:15:37.965 --> 0:15:39.925 of them, but it was like, damn, I wanted to 0:15:39.965 --> 0:15:42.685 remember what he'd said, but he convinced me yet again 0:15:42.725 --> 0:15:46.605 that I'd misunderstood what his intentions were about that now 0:15:46.845 --> 0:15:50.125 or his interest in the waiters recognition. And so we 0:15:50.205 --> 0:15:53.605 eventually had a third date, and I think again it 0:15:53.685 --> 0:15:56.245 was the fact he was interested in me was making 0:15:56.325 --> 0:15:57.165 my bells ring. 0:15:57.405 --> 0:15:59.885 How soon did you go away for the weekend? 0:15:59.925 --> 0:16:01.685 That was after our fourth date. So we had fourth 0:16:01.725 --> 0:16:03.965 date where we kissed, and then he said, you know 0:16:03.965 --> 0:16:05.725 it takes message that night, I'd like to go away 0:16:05.725 --> 0:16:07.005 with you for the weekend. 0:16:06.925 --> 0:16:07.725 To seal the deal. 0:16:08.085 --> 0:16:10.685 Yeah, to seal the deal as it is as it was. 0:16:10.925 --> 0:16:12.685 I don't want to cry about that, but I do 0:16:12.765 --> 0:16:14.685 want to ask was the sex great? 0:16:15.525 --> 0:16:17.805 Oh God, no one's asking me that yet, And it's like, 0:16:18.005 --> 0:16:20.365 I don't want to talk about this. It was great 0:16:20.405 --> 0:16:23.645 because I hadn't had it for so long. I don't 0:16:23.645 --> 0:16:25.805 think guys get this that women just don't go on 0:16:26.525 --> 0:16:29.805 single Women aren't out there every night having casual sex, 0:16:30.205 --> 0:16:33.845 certainly not the ones I know. He was warm and 0:16:33.965 --> 0:16:37.245 loving in hindsight, very selfish. I won't say more than that, 0:16:37.845 --> 0:16:39.045 but at the time I was loving it. 0:16:39.205 --> 0:16:43.445 And I ask that not just because I'm voyeuristic and strange, 0:16:43.525 --> 0:16:47.045 but because when the sex is good in a relationship 0:16:47.325 --> 0:16:49.085 or that hadn't been sex for a while, that can 0:16:49.125 --> 0:16:51.845 be confusing as well for a woman. Yeah, that hard 0:16:52.085 --> 0:16:54.845 experience where that can change my brain chemistry and think, 0:16:55.325 --> 0:16:55.725 oh I. 0:16:55.725 --> 0:16:57.365 Really like you, And it's like, yeah, no, that was 0:16:57.405 --> 0:16:59.525 just good sex. It's doesn't mean you're a good. 0:16:59.365 --> 0:17:01.965 Person, or doesn't mean it was good enough that I 0:17:02.005 --> 0:17:05.445 think it was turning my head and altering my chemistry. 0:17:05.445 --> 0:17:08.005 And in fact, as I write in Fake, our brain 0:17:08.085 --> 0:17:10.925 chemistry when we're in completely changes. 0:17:11.485 --> 0:17:13.885 You use a norweg is it a noruig model? 0:17:13.925 --> 0:17:16.125 Skept and I don't pronounce that properly, I know, but 0:17:16.245 --> 0:17:20.365 it's the heady period of love where you're completely tied 0:17:20.405 --> 0:17:23.205 in knots with love and besides yourself and can't think straight. 0:17:23.405 --> 0:17:25.005 Quite bonkers, quite nuts. 0:17:25.205 --> 0:17:29.165 And there are scientific it's just almost a pop culture 0:17:29.165 --> 0:17:33.005 words as I understand it in Norway, there are scientific 0:17:33.045 --> 0:17:35.805 reasons for it. The ancient part of our brain, the 0:17:35.925 --> 0:17:40.845 limits system, is surging with neurotransmitters and hormones because this 0:17:40.965 --> 0:17:43.805 is fundamental to our biology. Isn't it to mate and 0:17:43.845 --> 0:17:48.485 to reproduce. It's so fundamental. And also it's fundamental to 0:17:48.525 --> 0:17:50.845 want to attach to somebody because that's how we survive 0:17:50.885 --> 0:17:55.125 in the wild, you know, in primitive primal, it's very primal. 0:17:55.205 --> 0:17:57.885 How much time did you spend together in those early times. 0:17:58.445 --> 0:18:00.085 I would see in probably two or three days or 0:18:00.605 --> 0:18:04.125 every fortnight, which of course is not much. But I 0:18:04.245 --> 0:18:05.845 was under the impression you had the children on the 0:18:05.885 --> 0:18:07.805 other week. I felt as if I was in the 0:18:07.925 --> 0:18:11.005 very delicate situation that he'd talked about the children being 0:18:11.125 --> 0:18:14.845 very fragile and him being very fragile as a result 0:18:14.885 --> 0:18:18.205 of the divorce, And I thought, you know, I can't 0:18:18.245 --> 0:18:20.165 go in like a bullet at gate here. I can't 0:18:20.165 --> 0:18:23.165 demand to meet the children. That's not right. You know, 0:18:23.205 --> 0:18:27.285 I've got to be sympathetic to this situation. And if 0:18:27.325 --> 0:18:29.565 I do get demanding and so I must meet your 0:18:29.645 --> 0:18:32.085 children and I must see your house, I could just 0:18:32.165 --> 0:18:32.805 ruin everything. 0:18:32.965 --> 0:18:34.485 Had you dated a guy with kids before? 0:18:34.605 --> 0:18:39.045 No? Never, never. I mean my instinct was go gently, 0:18:39.925 --> 0:18:40.925 go very very gently. 0:18:41.685 --> 0:18:43.285 So you didn't meet his kids at first? Did you 0:18:43.325 --> 0:18:44.365 meet each other's friends? 0:18:45.445 --> 0:18:49.045 He met a few of my friends, but not for 0:18:49.085 --> 0:18:51.045 a while. A couple of times he stood me out 0:18:51.085 --> 0:18:54.925 when there were events. I was going to a Christmas 0:18:54.925 --> 0:18:57.725 party at a journalist friend's home and he was meant 0:18:57.725 --> 0:19:00.525 to join me. Funny thing he didn't come. He didn't 0:19:00.565 --> 0:19:03.685 there was an excuse. And this pattern started very early, 0:19:03.805 --> 0:19:09.965 the cancelations early, probably within oh three months. I mean 0:19:10.005 --> 0:19:11.965 there was a period there where I actually went to 0:19:12.005 --> 0:19:14.925 the States for five weeks for work, and so it 0:19:15.005 --> 0:19:19.125 was all a bit truncated and remote distance relationship for 0:19:19.125 --> 0:19:22.085 a little while while I was away. But we sort 0:19:22.085 --> 0:19:24.405 of started to go out seriously, probably end of August 0:19:24.445 --> 0:19:27.725 twenty fourteen. But by November he was starting to cancel 0:19:27.765 --> 0:19:28.005