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Speaker 1: Hello, four or five six listeners. My name is Naima Brown,

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Speaker 1: and I'm the executive producer of Mid with Holly Wainwright,

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Speaker 1: Mamma MIA's flagship podcast for our gen X listeners, and

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Speaker 1: we are bringing you a special episode today, four or

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Speaker 1: five six ers, because it's about finding love in your

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Speaker 1: mid years. This is a conversation with doctor Amantha Imber.

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Speaker 1: She's an organizational psychologist who got divorced a few years ago.

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Speaker 1: When she knew she was ready to repartner, she went

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Speaker 1: about it with a typical approach to efficiency, which meant

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Speaker 1: that she went on more than fifty first dates in

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Speaker 1: her first stint of online dating. How did this work

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Speaker 1: out for her? Is it a happily ever after? You'll

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Speaker 1: have to listen. I hope you enjoy.

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Speaker 2: I'm writing a brief.

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Speaker 3: It's for my perfect second husband, actually my first husband,

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Speaker 3: because my current one, Brent, is not really my husband,

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Speaker 3: but my boyfriend. He's been my boyfriend for twenty years

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Speaker 3: this year. And my boyfriend and I have.

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Speaker 2: Two children, a more brggage, a dog.

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Speaker 3: Two decades of shared history and stories and travels and

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Speaker 3: shared friendships and families and illnesses and deaths and miscarriages

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Speaker 3: and weddings and funerals and money worries and work stress

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Speaker 3: and fights and diagnoses and at least five different homes

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Speaker 3: and wordle and sundowners and a great.

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Speaker 2: Deal of laughter.

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Speaker 3: For now, at least, we are stuck too, and with

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Speaker 3: each other. But if I, like my guest today, found

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Speaker 3: myself suddenly single again, would I, like my guest today,

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Speaker 3: get busy with a blank page, fill in and Excel spreadsheet,

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Speaker 3: devoid of history and the messiness of familiarity, and ask

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Speaker 3: myself what.

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Speaker 2: Do I want next?

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Speaker 3: And if I did, would the universe laugh at me

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Speaker 3: the way it did twenty years ago, when I was

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Speaker 3: convinced what I wanted was not what was right in

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Speaker 3: front of me, but a whole list.

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Speaker 2: Of unchecked boxes.

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Speaker 3: I'd dated musicians and artists and cliff scaling, risk takers,

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Speaker 3: addicts and travel as an earnest world changes. I had

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Speaker 3: the words life less ordinary taped on a corkboard somewhere,

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Speaker 3: and I took those words to mean chaos and drama

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Speaker 3: and constant movement manifestos.

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Speaker 2: That's not what I got.

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Speaker 3: If the universe knew anything, it was that I'd had

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Speaker 3: my fill of all that. But back to the blank

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Speaker 3: sheet of my imagination. If I was single, with all

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Speaker 3: my mid wisdom under my arm, like my guest today,

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Speaker 3: would I devise a strategy, write up some rules, enforce

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Speaker 3: the guardrails, start a stop watch and email chain, a

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Speaker 3: crowdsourcing plan. I doubt it. I'm not a strategist. I'm

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Speaker 3: a panser, not a plotter. But if we are here

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Speaker 3: and the lines must be filled in, I would learn

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Speaker 3: to click on my Excel cells and I would drag

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Speaker 3: and drop and I would write kind, funny, kind, tall, kind, smart, kind, warm, kind, optimistic, kind, creative, kind, calm, kind, hot,

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Speaker 3: and probably because this was my brief and only my brief,

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Speaker 3: I would feed it into a hungry AI assistant and

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Speaker 3: it would split out a photo of print, and that

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Speaker 3: would be really, really annoying and also perfect.

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Speaker 2: Hello.

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Speaker 3: Hello, My name is Holly Wainwright, and I am mid midlife,

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Speaker 3: mid family, mid long relationship. Today's episode is all about love. Specifically,

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Speaker 3: it's about finding it in your mid years, maybe for

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Speaker 3: the second time, maybe for the fourth, maybe for the first.

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Speaker 2: We've touched on this.

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Speaker 3: Before here and mid Our second ever episode was called

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Speaker 3: the midlife Dating Pool?

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Speaker 2: Has we in It?

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Speaker 3: And it was about Katherine Mahoney's chaotic app dating world,

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Speaker 3: and it was very, very funny, and you all told

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Speaker 3: me that you wanted more of those stories. And so

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Speaker 3: today something very different about dating after a divorce, A

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Speaker 3: story about a woman who did it in the most

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Speaker 3: methodical way. I can imagine a woman who knew exactly

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Speaker 3: what she wanted, and her particular list of needs and

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Speaker 3: wants weren't necessarily the same as her friends, and the

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Speaker 3: way she was going to find the partner that she

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Speaker 3: knew she wanted was probably not going to be the

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Speaker 3: same either. Doctor Amantha Imber is one of the most efficient, productive,

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Speaker 3: and interesting people I know. She is an organizational psychologist,

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Speaker 3: and organizational psychologists are amazing, and she is the creator

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Speaker 3: of the innovation business Inventium, and she hosts the podcast

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Speaker 3: How I Work. And she is the author of a

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Speaker 3: few books and the mother to one child. And she

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Speaker 3: also got divorced a few years ago. Organizational psychologists don't

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Speaker 3: necessarily date the same way chaotic writers do. It seems

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Speaker 3: Amantha took an efficient approach when she decided she wanted

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Speaker 3: a new She decided to balance quantity and quality on

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Speaker 3: the dating apps, and she went on fifty one first

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Speaker 3: dates in her first stint of online dating. Those dates

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Speaker 3: had strict rules and boundaries, time limits and schedules, and

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Speaker 3: they didn't work. So then Amantha drew up a brief

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Speaker 3: and cold called a whole lot of people in her

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Speaker 3: circle who might know the person she was looking for.

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Speaker 3: But well, that didn't work either, So what did I'm

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Speaker 3: going to let her tell you that, Amantha, You're getting married.

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Speaker 3: Massive congratulations, Thanks Holly, thank you.

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Speaker 2: I need to.

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Speaker 3: Let the mids in on the fact that I have

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Speaker 3: interviewed you before a couple of times. Actually, but the

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Speaker 3: last time we had a proper chat I looked today,

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Speaker 3: it was actually eight years ago.

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Speaker 4: Oh my gosh. And that was in Melbourne, yep, it was.

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Speaker 3: And it was in Melbourne, and we were talking about

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Speaker 3: because you owned your own company, and you were talking

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Speaker 3: about this wild way of working where people could work

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Speaker 3: remotely from wherever they wanted to, and all these things

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Speaker 3: that at the time was so mind boggling that I

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Speaker 3: came back to work and said to everybody, you won't

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Speaker 3: believe it. Fast forward eight years and a lot has changed,

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Speaker 3: but also a lot has changed in your life since then.

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Speaker 3: Catch me up quickly, on what's been going on with

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Speaker 3: you in the last eight years.

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Speaker 4: Oh well, look, lots changed at work, and you know,

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Speaker 4: we've now been doing the four day week for the

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Speaker 4: last four years, and that's you know, that's a whole

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Speaker 4: other topic of conversation. But in my personal life, the

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Speaker 4: most significant thing that has happened is that I got

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Speaker 4: divorced in twenty nineteen and I am getting married in

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Speaker 4: March twenty twenty five, which is.

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Speaker 3: Very exciting and I need. That's what we're here to

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Speaker 3: talk about, because a lot of midlife women are divorced,

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Speaker 3: dating not dating, deciding if they want any part of

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Speaker 3: it ever again. And I would love to hear from you,

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Speaker 3: who's one of the smartest women I know for sure.

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Speaker 3: Was it soon after your divorce that you were like,

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Speaker 3: I know, I want to repartner, or did you go

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Speaker 3: through that period of time where you were like, never again.

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Speaker 3: I think I want to be single forever.

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Speaker 4: I think before the separation and then the divorce happened,

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Speaker 4: I'd probably been grieving that relationship for a while, and

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Speaker 4: so I think, you know, in any relationship breakdown, I

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Speaker 4: think there's always one person that probably knows first. Sometimes

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Speaker 4: it is mutual but I think oftentimes, and stories I've

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Speaker 4: heard from my friends that have been separated is that

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Speaker 4: they will have grieved if they were the one making

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Speaker 4: the decision before the actual relationship ended. And so I

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Speaker 4: can't remember when exactly I knew that I definitely wanted

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Speaker 4: to repartner, but it would have only been a few

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Speaker 4: months after the breakdown of the relationship. So I definitely

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Speaker 4: knew that one of my values is that life is

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Speaker 4: best shared with someone and that's just me, and I

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Speaker 4: knew that I felt that way, and so I knew

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Speaker 4: that I wanted to take finding a new partner really seriously.

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Speaker 2: And you did.

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Speaker 3: I want to know, first of all, because I imagine,

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Speaker 3: correct me if I'm wrong that you went to the

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Speaker 3: apps first, and the apps didn't really exist probably the

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Speaker 3: last time you were single. Certainly the last time I

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Speaker 3: was single, there was like RSVP online, and I did

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Speaker 3: play with that a bit, but the whole dating app

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Speaker 3: revolution hadn't started.

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Speaker 2: How did you find the apps first?

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Speaker 4: Up? Oh wow, Yeah, it's totally different world because I

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Speaker 4: was with my ex husband for thirteen years, so there

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Speaker 4: was definitely no apps, but RSVP was definitely a thing.

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Speaker 5: Oh my goodness.

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Speaker 4: So when I decided I was ready to date again,

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Speaker 4: which was a few months after the separation. I think

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Speaker 4: I tried bumble first and it was Man, it's like it's.

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Speaker 5: A whole other world. It is so strange.

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Speaker 4: And I was very reliant on the apps because the

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Speaker 4: two main years where I was dating before I met

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Speaker 4: Neo my soon to be husband, was twenty twenty and

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty one, and I live in Melbourne and I

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Speaker 4: was locked down for a good part of those two years,

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Speaker 4: so APPS was really the main way to meet people.

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Speaker 3: I can imagine that that was also made it particularly difficult,

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Speaker 3: because I mean, apart from the fact that you're all

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Speaker 3: locked in your houses, but it was also the extra

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Speaker 3: level of how careful is everybody? Do we meet up

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Speaker 3: under what circumstances? It's not like you're going to bars

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Speaker 3: and things like that. It was very, very different.

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Speaker 4: It certainly was, and I think they needed to be

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Speaker 4: quite a high level of trust to meet up with

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Speaker 4: someone face to face, which you know, oftentimes might have

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Speaker 4: been for like a walk around the park wearing a mask,

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Speaker 4: which I mean, what strange way to get to know

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Speaker 4: someone when you can't even read their facial expressions. But

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Speaker 4: I think what was good about online dating is that

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Speaker 4: for me, given like you know, part of my work

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Speaker 4: is around productivity and using time more wisely, is that

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Speaker 4: it's also quite efficient in that you can screen a

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Speaker 4: lot of people a lot more quickly than you can

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Speaker 4: if you're just reliant on meeting people in real life

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Speaker 4: or through connections in the workplace, or you know other

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Speaker 4: ways that people meet their partners.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, so the listeners understand you are a psychologist,

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Speaker 3: you are a productivity expert, you're an academic, You're big

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Speaker 3: on research, you're big on efficiency. So did you devise

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Speaker 3: a kind of system for how to weed out the

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Speaker 3: wheat from the chaff in the dating world?

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Speaker 5: I did.

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Speaker 4: What I realized pretty early on is that there is

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Speaker 4: a huge amount of quantity.

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Speaker 5: Time is finite.

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Speaker 4: I run a business, and so therefore I work something

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Speaker 4: that resembles full time hours. I've got a daughter that

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Speaker 4: is with me fifty percent of the time. I've got friends,

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Speaker 4: I've got family, and so there's a part of time

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Speaker 4: that I carved out for dating, and I wanted to

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Speaker 4: use that time really well as opposed to almost have

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Speaker 4: the dating apps become like social media is for a

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Speaker 4: lot of people where you're just kind of mindlessly on

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Speaker 4: it without too much of an end goal. So I

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Speaker 4: tried to be very conscientious almost in how I use the.

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Speaker 3: Apps and siphon off time that you're like, I'm going

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Speaker 3: to look at it between this time and this time.

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Speaker 5: I absolutely did.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, Like I didn't stick to that one hundred

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Speaker 4: percent of the time, but most of the time I

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Speaker 4: was quite conscious. It's like, okay, if I'm opening up

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Speaker 4: Bumble or Hinge, and they were my main go tos.

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Speaker 4: I tried Tinder, which just don't even get me started

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Speaker 4: on how that's the Yeah, there's no way.

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Speaker 2: So they're all quite different.

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Speaker 5: They're very different. They're very different.

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Speaker 4: I would have a bit of a process where you

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Speaker 4: connect with someone if you've both I guess liked each other.

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Speaker 4: And granted things might have changed in terms of the

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Speaker 4: features of these apps given where now you know, I

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Speaker 4: think three years that's all that. But then what was

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Speaker 4: really important for me is rather than just exchanging words,

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Speaker 4: and I mean, words are important, and we're both writers,

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Speaker 4: so I think you and I can appreciate the importance

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Speaker 4: of how someone uses words. But beyond that, I mean,

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Speaker 4: so like good grammar matters to me. Which might sound superficial,

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Speaker 4: but I think it's important.

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Speaker 3: I know it does to me too, and I worry

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Speaker 3: that it makes me a snob, but it's very much.

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Speaker 3: I think it's just if that's part of your value, like,

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Speaker 3: if that's part of what you do in your value system.

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Speaker 3: It's very hard if somebody just it doesn't use grammar

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Speaker 3: and doesn't and spells everything wrong and.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yes, yes.

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Speaker 4: And then I had to try to develop other heuristics,

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Speaker 4: like things that would just help me shortcut decision making,

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Speaker 4: because if you agonize over every single person that you're

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Speaker 4: looking at on an app, I mean it's a never

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Speaker 4: ending task. And so just for the sake of using

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Speaker 4: my time, well, I thought, I just need some quick

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Speaker 4: decision making rules that will help me decide yes I

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Speaker 4: want to know more or no swipe left, which I

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Speaker 4: think is the direction that you say no in man,

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Speaker 4: I think.

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Speaker 5: I've just repressed all this stuff, Holly.

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Speaker 4: So I had a thing where I would move to

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Speaker 4: voice memo quite quickly, because I think you can tell

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Speaker 4: a lot about someone by their voice and how they

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Speaker 4: speak and just what energy they bring to a conversation.

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Speaker 4: And so I would move from text to voice fairly quickly,

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Speaker 4: and because I think that feature was just being introduced

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Speaker 4: at the time, it was a little bit unusual, and

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Speaker 4: so people would often reply by, oh, I didn't even

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Speaker 4: know that there was a voice recording feature in the app,

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Speaker 4: and we would exchange a few messages and I would

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Speaker 4: just get a bit of a feel for them. So

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Speaker 4: again I could go, Hm, does this feel like someone

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Speaker 4: that has the kind of energy that I want to

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Speaker 4: be with? And again, I mean, I'm sure that there

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Speaker 4: are lots of people in the world that are fantastic

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Speaker 4: that probably wouldn't say great in a voice memo, And yes,

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Speaker 4: I ruled them all.

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Speaker 5: Out because of this little heuristic that I developed.

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Speaker 4: But time is finite, and so I had to keep

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Speaker 4: coming back to that and going, look, I just I

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Speaker 4: need decision making criteriously and I'm not agonizing some things.

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Speaker 3: And then so you went on some dates from the

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Speaker 3: dating apps, but then you decided to come off the

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Speaker 3: apps for a while and try a different kind of

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Speaker 3: dating experiment. Did you not meet anybody good on the

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Speaker 3: dating apps that first time around?

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Speaker 5: Look?

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Speaker 4: I reckon all up, I calculate it. I probably went

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Speaker 4: on about fifty first dates. Wow, yeah, answer, that's loads

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Speaker 4: it's so many over two years, and some of those.

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Speaker 3: Did you have like rules about the dates too, like

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Speaker 3: how long they could be, what they were and that

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Speaker 3: kind of thing.

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Speaker 5: Of course I didn't tell me.

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Speaker 4: I feel like, when you go on a date, a

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Speaker 4: lot of people feel an obligation just to stay for

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Speaker 4: a decent amount of time.

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Speaker 5: But for me, I just thought, if we're both.

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Speaker 4: Sitting there and there's clearly no connection, just call it early.

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Speaker 4: And so I would typically I think my shortest dates

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Speaker 4: for about forty five minutes, because I felt like that

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Speaker 4: was long enough. I mean, often you can tell in

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Speaker 4: the first five minutes, but I tried not to hang

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Speaker 4: on to those first impressions as well. It's really easy

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Speaker 4: to form like very quick impressions when you start a date.

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Speaker 4: But I would try to just you know, force particularly

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Speaker 4: any judgmental parts.

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Speaker 5: Of my brain to just go no, no, remain open.

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Speaker 4: But I sort of thought, look, after forty five minutes,

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Speaker 4: I'm just going to call it. And sometimes I was

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Speaker 4: honest and I just said I just don't feel like

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Speaker 4: there's a connection here. Other times I just made up

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Speaker 4: a lie, yeah, and said that I had to go

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Speaker 4: to you know, in my mind, protect the other person's feelings.

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Speaker 5: So I did a lot of that.

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Speaker 4: Some of those first dates turned into second dates and more,

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Speaker 4: but most did not, And that was fine, because you know,

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Speaker 4: it takes meeting a lot of people to find the

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Speaker 4: person that you feel the disconnection.

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Speaker 3: Were you ever like, oh, you know, this is exhausting.

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Speaker 2: What's that movie?

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Speaker 3: Where is he? I?

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Speaker 5: As Charlotte m Sacks in the city?

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Speaker 3: Where is he?

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Speaker 4: Did you?

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Speaker 2: Did you feel like that?

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Speaker 3: Oh?

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Speaker 5: My gosh, Holly.

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Speaker 4: After so many dates, I would be driving home and

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Speaker 4: I would call my best friend and I would say,

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Speaker 4: I've just been on another date and it didn't work,

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Speaker 4: And like, am my standards too high? Am I expecting

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Speaker 4: too much? Like what am I doing wrong? And just oh, man?

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Speaker 4: Like there were so many low points in that two years,

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Speaker 4: But I think somewhere inside of me I felt I

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Speaker 4: did feel truly optimistic, even though there were lots of

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Speaker 4: low points and lots of nights just feeling really lonely

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Speaker 4: and discouraged on that drive home from the date. But

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Speaker 4: I think, you know, I was definitely holding onto some

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Speaker 4: optimism and hope, which I think you have to if

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Speaker 4: you're going to deal with the apps, because the apps

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Speaker 4: can be credibly depressing.

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Speaker 3: And you're a pragmatic, practical person, right, And I imagine

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Speaker 3: that that helps in this situation because if you're meeting

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Speaker 3: somebody and it's obvious there's no chemistry, hopefully you're not

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Speaker 3: walking away from it going there's something wrong with me,

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Speaker 3: because that's not what it's about, right, That's not what

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Speaker 3: it's about at all. But that can be tough on

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Speaker 3: the ego after a while if you do internalize it.

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Speaker 3: So having that pragmatic approach is probably really helpful.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it is helpful. I think also I

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Speaker 4: ended up like just I did so much research into

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Speaker 4: almost like how to be at and how to make

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Speaker 4: a good decision.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. I read a lot of books.

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Speaker 4: And one of the lessons that stuck with me that

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Speaker 4: I tried to implement but I found it really hard

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Speaker 4: is to always default to a second date. Whereas for me,

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Speaker 4: I've gone into dating, going one date and if I'm

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Speaker 4: not enamored, then I'm calling it. So I changed my

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Speaker 4: approach part of the way through to go I'm defaulting

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Speaker 4: to a second date unless there's a massive problem or

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Speaker 4: red flag on the first date, which I felt just

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Speaker 4: having that rule helped me keep an open mind. But

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Speaker 4: it did get to a point where about two years

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Speaker 4: of doing this.

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Speaker 5: I just thought, I'm so over this. Surely there's got

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Speaker 5: to be a better way of finding people.

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Speaker 4: And so I my resid an email out to a

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Speaker 4: few close friends and I said, Okay, I want your ideas.

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Speaker 4: I'm still dating, I'm still single, but I'm taking it

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Speaker 4: really seriously finding a new partner. Give me some ideas

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Speaker 4: of like what would you do if you or me

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Speaker 4: and you could, you know, avoid the apps but still

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Speaker 4: find dates.

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Speaker 5: And I remember someone someone emailed me back and.

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Speaker 4: They said, well, you know, you know lots of people

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Speaker 4: like you, you know, host a podcast that's very popular.

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Speaker 4: You've got like, you know, large networks through work. Surely

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Speaker 4: with all those kind of assets in inverted commas, you

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Speaker 4: could utilize those to find a date.

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Speaker 5: And I thought, oh, that's interesting. And so I then.

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Speaker 4: Decided that I would try to crowdsaw dates. So what

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Speaker 4: the approach was, it was quite specific. So I put

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Speaker 4: together a list of people who I would call a

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Speaker 4: little bit more than acquaintances, so they weren't my inner

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Speaker 4: circle of friends. Because my inner circle of friends they

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Speaker 4: knew I was looking for someone. They know me if

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Speaker 4: they knew someone, they would have introduced me. So yeah,

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Speaker 4: so I went sort of down the friendship tears, if

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Speaker 4: you like, to people that knew me and knew my

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Speaker 4: values and kind of who I am as a person,

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Speaker 4: but is not someone that would necessarily, you know, if

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Speaker 4: they knew a person that they thought, oh they could

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Speaker 4: be great for Amantha, it just wouldn't be top of mind.

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Speaker 4: So I literally I opened up Excel and I created

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Speaker 4: a spreadsheet and I wrote down all these people's names.

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Speaker 4: And the other thing is I was specifically thinking about

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Speaker 4: who were the most well networked people of.

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Speaker 2: That most people, yeah, who.

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Speaker 4: Knew the most And then I put together a one

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Speaker 4: page brief of what I was looking for.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I need to know what was on the brief, Amantha.

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Speaker 4: Well, it had a few second so it had just

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Speaker 4: basic demographics because for age demographics brought age and location

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Speaker 4: demographics because that was important. I didn't want a long

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Speaker 4: distance thing, and I didn't want to be dating someone

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Speaker 4: you know it was like twenty years younger or you know,

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Speaker 4: thirty years older.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and I decided that that wasn't for me.

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Speaker 4: I had thought about what are the most important values

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Speaker 4: and what are the most important qualities.

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Speaker 5: And I think that's.

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Speaker 4: Something I really discounted when I was dating in my twenties,

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Speaker 4: where I think I sort of focused on, you.

401
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Speaker 5: Know, more of the superficial things that a lot of

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Speaker 5: us have focused.

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Speaker 6: On in our twenties, like you know, are they smarter,

404
00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:41,600
Speaker 6: are they funny? And you know they have a good job,

405
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Speaker 6: and is the hot all that sort of thing, But

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Speaker 6: somewhere along the lines, like I think of the guys

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Speaker 6: that I dated in my twenties and the decisions I made,

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Speaker 6: kindness didn't really feature.

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Speaker 5: And so for me, that was front and center.

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Speaker 4: I wanted someone who at their core was just a beautiful,

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Speaker 4: kind person. And I feel that, you know, now in

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Speaker 4: my forties, I understand how important that is for a relationship,

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Speaker 4: But for a lot of the dating that I did

414
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Speaker 4: in my younger years, it's like I was looking for

415
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Speaker 4: qualities that just it didn't matter. And I knew I

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Speaker 4: also wanted someone that had a real kind of learning

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Speaker 4: growth kind of mindset.

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Speaker 3: Because that's how you are. You know, you're you're a searcher.

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Speaker 3: You're a learner or a researcher. You yeah, you're constantly curious. Yes,

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Speaker 3: you wouldn't want to be with someone who was this

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Speaker 3: is it, this is the way things are closing?

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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Not yeah, And like I even think about some of

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Speaker 4: the rituals that that Neo, my partner, and I have,

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Speaker 4: and it's like for a lot of people they would

426
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Speaker 4: think that, like these are mad rituals, like what are

427
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Speaker 4: you doing? But for us, because we're very similar in

428
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Speaker 4: our value set, it just makes sense because.

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Speaker 2: I'm just ask you about that one second.

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Speaker 3: We're going to get onto Neo in a bit when

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Speaker 3: we when we when we find him.

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Speaker 2: But when I love this idea of.

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Speaker 3: Ask when you when you actually articulate what you want,

434
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Speaker 3: because I've heard women of all kinds of different ages

435
00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,199
Speaker 3: talk about this. Jesse Stevens, who's my co host on

436
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,240
Speaker 3: out Loud. Not long before she met her partner Lucas,

437
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Speaker 3: she said she'd been disastered and she was only in

438
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Speaker 3: her twenties, but she had been disastrously dating and she

439
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Speaker 3: did write a list and a lot of people teased

440
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Speaker 3: her about it because they're like, you shouldn't be so

441
00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:21,120
Speaker 3: close minded. You know, it's kind of a bit judgmental

442
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,399
Speaker 3: to write a list. You know, Lightning strikes in all

443
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:25,760
Speaker 3: kind of ways, and just like what you just said

444
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,160
Speaker 3: kindness was top of her list, and then she met

445
00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 3: the guy and he was very kind when you wrote

446
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,480
Speaker 3: your list, and then you shared that list with your circle.

447
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:36,639
Speaker 3: A that feels like quite a vulnerable thing to do,

448
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:39,920
Speaker 3: like kind of showing that to people in your world

449
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,080
Speaker 3: like I do. It can even be vulnerable saying I

450
00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:44,280
Speaker 3: really would like to meet someone and I haven't, but

451
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:46,280
Speaker 3: also these are the things that matter to me. Were

452
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:49,920
Speaker 3: you worried about that vulnerability and were you worried about

453
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:54,280
Speaker 3: seeming I don't know, And so a twofold question, Well,

454
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:56,640
Speaker 3: did the vulnerability worry you? And do you think there's

455
00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,920
Speaker 3: just power in getting really clear about what matters to you?

456
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:01,000
Speaker 5: Yes? And yes.

457
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 4: So I still remember how I felt when I called

458
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 4: these people. Actually had a list of fifty people, and

459
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:10,200
Speaker 4: I thought, I'm just going to start with ten, treated

460
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,680
Speaker 4: as an experiment, And I remember every one of those

461
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,600
Speaker 4: ten phone calls, and I felt so nervous.

462
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:17,000
Speaker 5: I felt sick in the stomach.

463
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,320
Speaker 4: It felt like a really big deal to put yourself

464
00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,959
Speaker 4: out there and say I'm like, unashamedly looking for a

465
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,360
Speaker 4: partner and I really want your help. I was so nervous,

466
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:29,920
Speaker 4: and what I got on the receiving end and keeping

467
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:31,919
Speaker 4: in mind these people like I knew them, but I

468
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,160
Speaker 4: didn't know them well, Like I knew them well enough

469
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 4: for them to be on the list well.

470
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 3: Enough they were going to pick up the phone or

471
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 3: onunce your email and be like, Hi, i'mnthing a good

472
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:40,720
Speaker 3: tear from you. But then they'd be like, oh, that's

473
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 3: what we're talking about.

474
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 5: Today, Yeah, exactly, exactly.

475
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 4: And I remember every one of them was just like

476
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:52,639
Speaker 4: so so honored to be asked and so excited to help.

477
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,399
Speaker 5: And I ran it as.

478
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,399
Speaker 4: Like a four week campaign where every week I would

479
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 4: send them like a little nudge, a little question to

480
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:04,239
Speaker 4: try to trigger memories around all the people that they

481
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:08,680
Speaker 4: might know. And then I think I had some kind

482
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,160
Speaker 4: of an incentive, not that they needed an incentive, because

483
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:12,679
Speaker 4: I think they just you know, enjoyed the idea of

484
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:14,800
Speaker 4: helping that I'd make it. I think I was going

485
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 4: to make a hundred dollar donation to charity for every

486
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 4: date that I went on that they found me.

487
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, And the experiment was an utter failure.

488
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 4: Not a single date came out of that experiment.

489
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:29,919
Speaker 2: Why do you think that was?

490
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 4: Well, I think it was because I had a very

491
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,359
Speaker 4: clear brief, and it wasn't an extensive brief, it wasn't

492
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 4: a long brief. I think all up there were nine

493
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 4: points that was it because I think one of the

494
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 4: arts of making a great brief is making it very

495
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 4: succinct as opposed to a whole shopping list, and that

496
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 4: was really hard, but it was a good process to

497
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,360
Speaker 4: go through. I think for myself in going what are

498
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 4: the absolute must haves here? But I also think it

499
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:03,440
Speaker 4: is hard to find someone that is your person. I

500
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 4: think it's harder when it's when you're in your forties

501
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 4: because just I mean statistically, a lot of people are

502
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,639
Speaker 4: still married. It's not like in your twenties, where the

503
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:18,400
Speaker 4: majority of people are probably single or in you know,

504
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 4: like not non life committed relationships. So just statistically, it's

505
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 4: really different. And I think when you're in your forties

506
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 4: and beyond, like you're really clear on who you are

507
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 4: and what you value and what is important and what

508
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,159
Speaker 4: you won't compromise on. And I think that for me

509
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,159
Speaker 4: because I had no biological clock ticking, I had my

510
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 4: beautiful daughter she's now ten. There's also no sense of

511
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 4: urgency as well, and that changes everything when it comes

512
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 4: to dating.

513
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 5: As a woman.

514
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,359
Speaker 3: That's so interesting because it's true. It's like you this,

515
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,479
Speaker 3: to put it in very basic language, you don't need

516
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 3: to settle, like you know what I mean, You don't

517
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 3: need It's not you don't necessarily need a partner for

518
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 3: financial reasons or to have a baby with, or to

519
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,919
Speaker 3: buy a house or whatever, because you're well established in

520
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 3: your life, your career.

521
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 2: You've got your beautiful daughter, as.

522
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 3: You say, so a partner, as you said at the beginning,

523
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 3: you said, I know that life is for me. Life

524
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,440
Speaker 3: is better shared. That's your goal. It's not just anyone

525
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:22,959
Speaker 3: will do. It's got to be shared with the right person.

526
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 3: Not that not that we all go around thinking anyone

527
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 3: will do. But a lot of those filters, you know,

528
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 3: they're stronger at this point because you don't need to settle,

529
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 3: right I think so.

530
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:40,639
Speaker 4: I think when you're racing against a clock as a woman,

531
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 4: if you do want to have children, then it just

532
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,639
Speaker 4: I think sometimes it can lead to more pragmatic decision making.

533
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 4: And I hold no judgment against that because I totally

534
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:52,959
Speaker 4: get that.

535
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 5: I totally get that.

536
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 4: But my experience was it was very, very different without

537
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 4: at any kind of timeline, Like yes, I wanted to

538
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 4: find someone you know, and sooner would have been better

539
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 4: than later. But equally it had to be an additive

540
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 4: because life was really good before Neo, and unless that

541
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 4: was going to add something really wonderful to life, then

542
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 4: why why would you? Because obviously relationships involve sacrifices as well,

543
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 4: and so you know, the additive needs to be strong.

544
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 3: So we've written this type brief. I'm just imagining your friends.

545
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 3: The reason that you didn't get dates out of that

546
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 3: going through it because the brief was type being like, well,

547
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,679
Speaker 3: yes he's smart, but he's not creative, and they're like

548
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 3: crossing it out and then or whatever it was. Anyway,

549
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 3: then so that didn't work and you went back on hinge.

550
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,399
Speaker 2: Now quite quickly you did meet Neo.

551
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:51,440
Speaker 3: Do you think the list exercised the brief helped you

552
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 3: further clarify things when you did go back into app world?

553
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 5: It absolutely did.

554
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:02,159
Speaker 4: But I also think I mean, like, look, it was

555
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 4: putting pen to paper with what I knew inside to

556
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:12,439
Speaker 4: be true. But with Neo, I'd like, it wasn't an

557
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 4: arming and r ring, like oh you know, I remember

558
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,400
Speaker 4: like our first phone call that we had, so we connected,

559
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 4: we messaged we voice memode, and then we had a

560
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 4: phone call, and I used to have this rule for

561
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,439
Speaker 4: when we would get to the phone call part of

562
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 4: the dating process, which which i'd strongly recommend instead of

563
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 4: just going straight to a face to face date, because

564
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 4: you can tell a lot in a phone conversation. I

565
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 4: used to have this rule that I wouldn't let a

566
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 4: phone conversation go over an hour because which sounds like

567
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 4: quite an anal strange rule, but the reason for it

568
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 4: is that I'd had experiences where I had connected with

569
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 4: someone on the app, and like, I can think of

570
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 4: a couple of instances where we talked for like two

571
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 4: or three hours on the phone. And when you talk

572
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 4: to someone for that long and they're a stranger and

573
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 4: they're normally you know, I feel like when it's a

574
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 4: phone conversation, you sort of let it let down some

575
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 4: of your guard and you can talk about things that

576
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 4: are quite vulnerable because there's no visual, there's just voice.

577
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 4: And something about that I think brings on to honesty

578
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 4: in a yeah and an intimacy in the conversation. And

579
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 4: what then I'd done between the phone conversation and the

580
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 4: face to face date in those instances is that I've

581
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 4: just started to project all these qualities onto the person.

582
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 5: That really I didn't know.

583
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 4: I just talked to them on the phone. And then

584
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 4: the first date was a real letdown, and so I thought,

585
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 4: I'm just going to limit that first phone conversation to

586
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 4: an hour. It's like, it's long enough to get a

587
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 4: really good feel for someone, but it's not so long

588
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 4: that you're learning all this stuff and then forming, like

589
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 4: starting all these assumptions and projections of what this person

590
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 4: could possibly be. Because I found that that's really unhelpful

591
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 4: going into a date.

592
00:29:57,680 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 3: After this shortbreak, we're going to hear about a month

593
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 3: first date with Neo and whether all her hard work

594
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 3: paid off.

595
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 2: Stay with us.

596
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 3: So, your first conversation with Neo did it break this rule?

597
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 5: Yeah? It did, But I told him about the rule.

598
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 5: I look, I remember, you know. It was in the evening.

599
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 4: I think we got to about nine o'clock at night

600
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 4: and I looked at my watch and I said, Neo,

601
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 4: so I've got this rule, and I got to cut

602
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 4: the phone conversation short now and I explained why, and

603
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 4: because he's as nerdy as me, he's like, I totally

604
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 4: get it. And then we just ended up talking I

605
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 4: think for another fifteen or twenty minutes, and then I'm like, Okay.

606
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 5: We really have to go. Now this rule has been broken.

607
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 4: But I think I just I knew after that phone

608
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 4: conversation that I think this guy's pretty special.

609
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 5: I think this is going to be a good first date.

610
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 2: Tell me about your first date.

611
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 4: I remember one of the I think like it was

612
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 4: kind of like a bit of a pet peeve where

613
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 4: I feel like I spent a lot of my life,

614
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 4: you know, in charge and in a leadership kind of

615
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 4: role as a business owner, and I really appreciated it

616
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 4: when the person that I was dating would take charge

617
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 4: and take some initiative in terms of what are we

618
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 4: doing for the first date or the second date. And

619
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 4: it's kind of owned some of those decisions because I

620
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 4: will naturally go to that role. But I really like

621
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 4: it when I'm relieved of that role. And I remember

622
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 4: Neo texted me and he said, so, I've been thinking

623
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 4: about what we could do for our first date, and

624
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 4: what do you reckon about going bowling?

625
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 5: And I thought, oh, that's awesome. That's awesome.

626
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 4: Like he's you know, a bit like quirky and creative,

627
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 4: and he's put some thought into it, and he had

628
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 4: his reasons for suggesting bowling, and then we'd go for

629
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 4: a drink afterwards. So we went tenpin bowling, and I

630
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 4: remember that there was just really fun eighties music blasting

631
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 4: over the speakers, and you know, this like one or

632
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 4: two hour, you know, several games of bowling. It was

633
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,239
Speaker 4: just it was fun and it was silly, and it

634
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:55,719
Speaker 4: was lighthearted and it was flirty and you know that,

635
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 4: Like there was a bit of conversation, but there wasn't

636
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 4: pressure on the conversation, and then when we went to

637
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 4: a bar afterwards, it's like we just you know, dealt

638
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 4: in the conversation.

639
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 5: I think the date ended at like two in the morning,

640
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 5: which I mean like my bedtimes ten.

641
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 2: I know you're alive. That's what I know about you.

642
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 2: You're alark. It's you're an early morning person.

643
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,239
Speaker 4: I am so like, I don't do two am, but

644
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 4: on this first date I did.

645
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 2: Wow.

646
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 3: So it was pretty obvious straight away that this was

647
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 3: special and different to those other fifty first dates very much.

648
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 3: And so did was it all sort of plane sailing

649
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,719
Speaker 3: from there? I mean, we've already put a spoiler at

650
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 3: the beginning of this episode, which is that you are

651
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 3: getting married and Neo is the man you're getting married to.

652
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 3: But I guess what I want to know is, you know,

653
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 3: when you are falling in love in mid you've got

654
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 3: it's very different in a way from when you're young

655
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 3: and you're you know, you haven't got all the experiences

656
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 3: in the wisdom of what can go wrong, or how

657
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 3: sometimes things that start beautifully you can fall apart, or

658
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 3: sometimes people who charm the pants off you, maybe literally,

659
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 3: maybe figuratively, can then turn out to have some serious

660
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 3: red flags and that can make us all you know,

661
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 3: it can it can complicate things right because we're wiser

662
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 3: and more experienced, but that also can mean we're more guarded,

663
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 3: Like how was it was it immediate that you could

664
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 3: trust him that things were going to go well?

665
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 2: How did it progress?

666
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 4: There were two things that I think about that I

667
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 4: think served me really well in terms of navigating that.

668
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 4: The first is that I became really good through all

669
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 4: the dating that I did over those two years, just keeping.

670
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 5: An eye on whether words.

671
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 4: Matched actions, because people can say a lot of good

672
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 4: words in dating, but often the actions or the behavior

673
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 4: won't align with those words. And what became really clear,

674
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 4: particularly in those first six months where you're falling in

675
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 4: love but you're also getting to know someone well and

676
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 4: certainly like you know in the three years that we've

677
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:08,240
Speaker 4: been together, is that the words always matched the actions,

678
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 4: and for me, that was really important. The second thing

679
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 4: that was really helpful is that I had done maybe

680
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 4: I've been, you know, in and out of therapy for

681
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 4: a lot of my life. I think as a psychologist,

682
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 4: even though I'm an organizational psychologist not a clinical one,

683
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 4: I've always just really believed in the value of therapy,

684
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 4: and so, you know, I've had chunks of my life

685
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:34,399
Speaker 4: where I've been very committed to therapy. And during those

686
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 4: two years of dating, I was seeing a therapist fortnightly,

687
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 4: sometimes weekly, and a lot of the discussion was around

688
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 4: relationships and dating and experiences that I was having. And

689
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 4: what I came to realize is, you know, and I

690
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:56,359
Speaker 4: imagine you've probably had guests talk about attachment theory, and

691
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 4: what I learned about myself is that I have the

692
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 4: tendency to to have like an anxious attachment system like

693
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 4: that can get activated where I'm not sure where I stand,

694
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,800
Speaker 4: but I think when you've got that anxious attachment system

695
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,879
Speaker 4: being activated, what tends to happen when you're in those

696
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 4: early stages of dating and you're kind of not quite

697
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 4: sure where you stand, You're not quite sure if they

698
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:22,400
Speaker 4: feel the same way. You can confuse that anxiety for

699
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 4: lust or god to be love.

700
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 3: For butterflies and the yes, can I just ask you

701
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,760
Speaker 3: on that? MEA did an episode of No Filter about

702
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:32,919
Speaker 3: attachment theory with an expert, and we'll put a link

703
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 3: in the show notes. But is the ideal situation that

704
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 3: you and the person you pair with have the same

705
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 3: attachment type or that you have complementary attachment types.

706
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 4: I would say one thing you don't want is you

707
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 4: don't want someone who who is kind of anxiously attached

708
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 4: matching with someone who is an avoidant where they avoid intimacy.

709
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:02,319
Speaker 4: That like, if you look at any unhealthy relationship or

710
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 4: kind of dating situation, there's a high probability that that

711
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 4: pattern the problem is going on. But the thing is, like,

712
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,839
Speaker 4: based on the person who you're with, and depending also

713
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 4: on what their attachment style is, that can bring out

714
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 4: a different attachment style in you. So what I felt

715
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,240
Speaker 4: with Neo and what I think if I hadn't gone

716
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 4: through those two years of therapy, I would have misinterpreted.

717
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:29,359
Speaker 5: What was going on is.

718
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,399
Speaker 4: That I didn't like I felt butterflies, and I felt

719
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 4: excited to see him. But I didn't feel that anxiety

720
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:42,279
Speaker 4: that I in past situations had mistaken for falling in love.

721
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 4: It just felt like I felt really safe, and I

722
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 4: don't think i'd experienced that with anyone that I dated.

723
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:52,800
Speaker 5: I knew exactly where I stood.

724
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:56,919
Speaker 4: And what happened with that experience with this, I guess

725
00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 4: secure attachment that Neo offered me, and just this confidence

726
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:04,280
Speaker 4: in where we stood, it meant that my anxious attachment

727
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 4: system wasn't activated, and so therefore it's like I was

728
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 4: just really present and I wasn't making up stories in

729
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,799
Speaker 4: my mind, and I wasn't thinking that, Oh, because I

730
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:17,799
Speaker 4: feel this way, it must mean that I'm madly in

731
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 4: love and.

732
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 5: This is my person.

733
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 4: Instead, I knew it was coming from I guess like,

734
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 4: you know, a more secure place.

735
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:24,879
Speaker 5: Now.

736
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 3: I've heard you and Neo interviewed, and it's clear that

737
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 3: you are. You have a lot of shared passions. You're

738
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:36,359
Speaker 3: both really curious, really interested in experimenting with different ways

739
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 3: of living, different health things, different habits. Tell me a

740
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:43,360
Speaker 3: little bit about how you knew that he was indeed

741
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 3: your person in this healthy way.

742
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 4: Oh gosh, I mean, there there were so many things.

743
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 4: I think one thing that we.

744
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 5: Do that was a monthly ritual.

745
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 4: We've sort of we've adapted the ritual slightly, but for

746
00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 4: the first couple of years of the relationship. And I

747
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 4: think if some Neo's suggestion, but the fact that it

748
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 4: was Neo's suggestion, but it could have been mine's suggestion.

749
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,319
Speaker 5: I just don't I can't remember tells you a lot.

750
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:09,959
Speaker 5: It's just like how.

751
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 4: Similar we are in terms of our mindedness. Is that

752
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 4: we decided that we would have a monthly meeting about

753
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,959
Speaker 4: our relationship. We used to call it our monthly check in. Wow,

754
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:21,799
Speaker 4: we still call we still call it our monthly check in.

755
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 4: And we devised a series of questions and I can

756
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 4: share some of them with.

757
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 5: You, you know.

758
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:30,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah, that would basically be a chance where we

759
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 4: actually have time carved out, and typically it was on

760
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 4: a date night. You know, we would go out to

761
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 4: a restaurant or you know, we've got that space where

762
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,719
Speaker 4: we're actually talking and reflecting about us and about how

763
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,280
Speaker 4: we're behaving towards each other and about how we're feeling,

764
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 4: so you know, some of the questions like somewhere about

765
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 4: you know, acknowledging the positives. Like one question was what

766
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 4: are we appreciating most about the other person?

767
00:38:57,120 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 5: Which is so simple, but.

768
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:01,880
Speaker 4: It's really powerful to actually sit down with your partner

769
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 4: once a month and here, what are they appreciating and

770
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,439
Speaker 4: also think about that to them. You know, we also

771
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:11,399
Speaker 4: would talk about what do we need from the other

772
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 4: person that we're not getting, which again just having that

773
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 4: space where a lot of times that's an uncomfortable conversation

774
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 4: to have, but if you've got this time carved out

775
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 4: where like there is space and the freedom to just go, okay,

776
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 4: this is the conversation that we're having, and it feels

777
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 4: much more comfortable to bring that up. We also like

778
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,240
Speaker 4: reflect and go what have been our best connection moments

779
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,879
Speaker 4: in the month just gone, and again being mindful, because

780
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 4: if we're mindful of those, then we can go how

781
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 4: can we recreate more of those those really powerful moments.

782
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,840
Speaker 4: So they're just some examples, and so we did that

783
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 4: pretty religiously for a good two and a half years.

784
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 3: And that shows obviously or compatibility because there would be

785
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 3: some people you could be dating who you'd say I

786
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 3: think we should do this, and they'd.

787
00:39:56,360 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 2: Be like, are you joking? That would be their worst nightmare.

788
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 2: They would be running out the door.

789
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,359
Speaker 3: So it's beautiful that you've found somebody who you know

790
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:09,439
Speaker 3: that you found each other rather in this way. Tell

791
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 3: me a little bit too, for the listeners who are

792
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 3: dating and they've got kids.

793
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 2: You obviously you have a daughter. She's ten. NEO doesn't

794
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:16,799
Speaker 2: have kids, is.

795
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:18,280
Speaker 5: That right, correct? Yeah?

796
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 3: But being you and the very mindful person you are,

797
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,720
Speaker 3: I know that you were did a lot of research

798
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 3: in the best way to introduce this person who you

799
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:28,879
Speaker 3: knew was going to be around to your daughter. Tell

800
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 3: me what you learned about that and what worked and

801
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:31,400
Speaker 3: what didn't.

802
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 4: I think so midway through my whole dating experience, I

803
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 4: had this conversation with Michael kr Greg, who I guess is,

804
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,919
Speaker 4: you know, probably one of the most well known psychologists.

805
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:43,720
Speaker 4: I think he is a child psychologist or a clinical

806
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 4: psych Yeah. Yeah, and his advice really formed I guess

807
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:54,640
Speaker 4: some of the principles that I had around how was

808
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 4: I going to integrate this person that I knew I

809
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:01,800
Speaker 4: wanted to be my life partner into Frankie's world.

810
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 5: My daughter and there.

811
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:08,240
Speaker 4: Are a few things that he gave advice on. He said, ideally,

812
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:11,840
Speaker 4: wait at least six months before introducing your new partner

813
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:16,920
Speaker 4: to your daughter, and his reasons for that. And actually

814
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 4: Neo was the only person I dated that Frankie did

815
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:23,760
Speaker 4: end up meeting, because obviously, if you go through a divorce,

816
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,920
Speaker 4: I mean, that is an enormous amount of change and instability,

817
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 4: and I just wanted to protect her from any more

818
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 4: of that wherever that was in my control.

819
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 5: And so I think I felt like six months was

820
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 5: long enough to.

821
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 4: Go, Yeah, there is a very very high likelihood that

822
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 4: this person will be around for a very very long time,

823
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 4: and so I wanted to be really clear on that

824
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:50,480
Speaker 4: before Frankie and Neo met. Neo and I actually spend

825
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 4: a lot of time like curating what would that first

826
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 4: meeting be, Like, A lot of thought went into that, like,

827
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:00,360
Speaker 4: for example, we wanted it to be on Frankie's home ground,

828
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:02,439
Speaker 4: because it could have been at Neo's place, it could

829
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:04,799
Speaker 4: have been in a neutral place like a cafe or

830
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 4: a park, but we wanted it to be in the

831
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:10,760
Speaker 4: place where Frankie felt safest, and that was at my home.

832
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:14,440
Speaker 4: And then we also wanted kind of a fun activity.

833
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:16,799
Speaker 4: So it wasn't this like intense. Okay, let's just sit

834
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 4: down and have a big long conversation, you know, over

835
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 4: a meal or something that you know that can be

836
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 4: maybe a bit intense. We thought, what's like a fun

837
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,799
Speaker 4: activity that we can all do together, and so we

838
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 4: decided that we'd make pizza together. And so Neo went

839
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 4: to all this trouble to cook pizza dough from scratch

840
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:36,359
Speaker 4: the night before, but the yeast was off and the

841
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 4: pizza dough failed, and so he was like stressing about

842
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 4: his pizza dough that has failed. Ended up going to

843
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:46,240
Speaker 4: the supermarket and border base, and then we made pizza together,

844
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:48,800
Speaker 4: and then I think we ended up watching a movie

845
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:50,280
Speaker 4: together that afternoon.

846
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 5: So a lot of thought went into that and just thinking.

847
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 4: What is going to make this the best and most

848
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 4: positive and most comfortable experience for Frankie.

849
00:42:56,600 --> 00:43:00,839
Speaker 3: Were you really nervous because I imagine, without obviously wanting

850
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 3: to pry into Frankie's world at all, but I imagine

851
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 3: for you you're thinking, I really love this guy, like

852
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:08,919
Speaker 3: I can see a future. But if she hates him,

853
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 3: or if she's not comfortable in his presence, or if

854
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 3: she's not. If this doesn't work, then this changes everything.

855
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 3: So were you really nervous about that meeting too?

856
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 4: It's funny, I was more nervous about telling Frankie that

857
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:25,799
Speaker 4: I'd been dating someone.

858
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 5: Right, because she didn't know anything about my dating life.

859
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:31,879
Speaker 4: She didn't, you know, like I kept that very very

860
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:34,319
Speaker 4: separate to my role as a mum.

861
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:35,120
Speaker 5: With Frankie.

862
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 4: We know other friends of mine had made different choices,

863
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 4: and you know that they might have had older kids

864
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 4: where that actually show them the apps and get them

865
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 4: a bit involved.

866
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 5: But Frankie had no idea.

867
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:45,759
Speaker 4: And I remember one night, like I you know, we

868
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 4: were sitting in bed talking, you know, before bedtime, and

869
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:51,360
Speaker 4: I remember I was so nervous and I shared the

870
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:54,279
Speaker 4: news with her and I said, I've you know, I've

871
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 4: met Salmon and we've been dating, and I'd really like

872
00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 4: you to meet them.

873
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:01,560
Speaker 5: Would you like to meet them? And she like she

874
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:02,240
Speaker 5: was all excited.

875
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 4: She said, oh, does that mean you're getting married? And

876
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:07,360
Speaker 4: I get to go to a wedding?

877
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:09,319
Speaker 5: And I think she was stabbed at the time.

878
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,839
Speaker 4: Maybe when I say no, it doesn't quite mean that,

879
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:15,799
Speaker 4: but and anyway, so it went from there and then

880
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:17,800
Speaker 4: I think about a week later we had the meeting.

881
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:20,920
Speaker 4: So I was actually more nervous about that, just telling

882
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:24,600
Speaker 4: her that like her mum, who she's only ever known

883
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 4: in relation to her dad, is now bringing another man

884
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 4: into this family system. So that was really nerve wracking.

885
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 4: But she was like really good and happy about that.

886
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:39,919
Speaker 4: I actually wasn't nervous about how Frankie and Neo would

887
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 4: get along, because yeah, I.

888
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:43,799
Speaker 5: Just wasn't nervous about that.

889
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 4: I knew, I think I just I just knew that

890
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 4: they would, and I knew like just what a beautiful,

891
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 4: kind of fun person Neo was, and just how caring

892
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 4: and thoughtful he was, And I just thought, man, like,

893
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 4: you know, I just think Frankie is, you know, just

894
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 4: the luckiest girl to have like this amazing male role model,

895
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 4: you know, in addition to her dad, like in her life.

896
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:08,800
Speaker 2: Oh how gorgeous?

897
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 3: After this break? How did Amantha know she was ready

898
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:18,400
Speaker 3: to get married again? Stay right here, we'll be back

899
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:23,360
Speaker 3: in a minute. We've got to get to the point

900
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 3: at which you have decided to get married again. So

901
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:32,400
Speaker 3: tell me, was this always did you? After your divorce?

902
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:35,360
Speaker 3: Did you ever think I'm not going to get married again?

903
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 3: Or is it something you were very keen to happen

904
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:39,400
Speaker 3: or what and how did it come about?

905
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 4: I would say I just had no attachment to it.

906
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,439
Speaker 4: I thought, maybe I will, maybe I won't. It wasn't

907
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:48,359
Speaker 4: something I was aspiring to. It wasn't something I was

908
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 4: aiming for. But I remember about two years into our relationship,

909
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:55,359
Speaker 4: you know, we talked about this. We talked a lot

910
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 4: about our views on marriage. Neo felt pretty similarly to me,

911
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:01,279
Speaker 4: and that, you know, he been married before, he'd been

912
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:03,400
Speaker 4: married for nineteen years or with his last partner for

913
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 4: nineteen years, and you know, we could both give or

914
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:10,799
Speaker 4: take marriage. And then I remember we'd been on the

915
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:15,320
Speaker 4: Separate Bathrooms podcast together when I was promoting The Health Habit,

916
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:20,280
Speaker 4: my last book, and they had introduced Neo as my husband,

917
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 4: and we just had like a bit of a laugh

918
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:24,839
Speaker 4: about it. Afterwards I heard that, I was like, that's

919
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:28,399
Speaker 4: a bit awkward, But because we talked about it so much,

920
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:30,279
Speaker 4: it just wasn't awkward. But I can imagine it would

921
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:33,240
Speaker 4: have been awkward for us for some people. But anyway,

922
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 4: it just we I remember we went on a walk

923
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:38,960
Speaker 4: a little bit after we'd recorded that podcast episode, and

924
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:42,239
Speaker 4: you know, I said like like where are you at,

925
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:43,799
Speaker 4: Like what do you think about getting married? And we

926
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:47,839
Speaker 4: just had this like walking conversation where we talked about

927
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 4: for both of us in a very similar way, our

928
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 4: views on marriage had changed, and we felt that it

929
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 4: was actually something that had started to feel important. And

930
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:02,759
Speaker 4: I think also thinking about Frankie and the security that

931
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:07,279
Speaker 4: she feels, I thought, you know, as a child, when

932
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:10,480
Speaker 4: you've been through a divorce, I think there's something that

933
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 4: maybe feels like there's some stability when there is a marriage.

934
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:18,320
Speaker 4: And you know, again like no judgment on anyone else's choices,

935
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:22,360
Speaker 4: but it just felt right for us, and so we decided.

936
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 4: Then we sort of said, I think this is something

937
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 4: that we want to do. And I'm about six months

938
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 4: after that conversation, Neo proposed when we were on a holiday,

939
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:35,360
Speaker 4: and so it was kind of it was absolutely beautiful,

940
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 4: but it wasn't a surprise because of that conversation. Gorgeous

941
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:41,920
Speaker 4: And so you're getting married next year? Is this and

942
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:43,760
Speaker 4: what will be different about this wedding?

943
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 5: Ah, what will be different?

944
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:48,640
Speaker 4: Look, I mean my first wedding was pretty low key,

945
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:52,440
Speaker 4: but this is it's a small wedding. It's just our

946
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:56,040
Speaker 4: close friends and families, so about fifty people and we're

947
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:56,480
Speaker 4: doing it.

948
00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 5: In our house.

949
00:47:57,440 --> 00:47:58,400
Speaker 2: Oh how gorgeous.

950
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:01,919
Speaker 4: Got like wonderful celebrant who used to be a pop

951
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:05,359
Speaker 4: star in the eighties, and she's super fun, perfect, and

952
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 4: it's it's not overstated. It's small, it's intimate, it's meaningful,

953
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:13,239
Speaker 4: it's it's kind of yeah, so happy you want it

954
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:13,400
Speaker 4: to me?

955
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:15,440
Speaker 3: He looks so happy and Manthea, you're like, when you're

956
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 3: talking about it, you're just beaming.

957
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 2: It's just gorgeous. It makes me very happy.

958
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 3: But if someone is listening to this who maybe has

959
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:26,759
Speaker 3: been through a relationship breakup and is thinking I'm never

960
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 3: going to meet him, I would like to like you.

961
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:30,360
Speaker 2: I would because not everybody does. There are a lot

962
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:31,280
Speaker 2: of women in mid who.

963
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 3: Are like I never want to repartner, I don't want

964
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:36,719
Speaker 3: to look after anybody. I don't want to repeat any

965
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:38,759
Speaker 3: of those things. I'm just going to live. That's which

966
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:41,280
Speaker 3: is great. But if you, if like you, you're thinking

967
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 3: life is better shared, what's your best piece of advice

968
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:46,799
Speaker 3: for how to handle that?

969
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 4: I would say, get really clear on what you're looking

970
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 4: for and what you most what you won't compromise on.

971
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:59,359
Speaker 4: I think the quality of your decisions when you're going

972
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 4: through a dating process where you are making literally thousands

973
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:06,840
Speaker 4: of decisions. If you're using the apps, the more clear

974
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:10,439
Speaker 4: you can be on what matters to you, I think,

975
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:11,840
Speaker 4: the better your outcome will be.

976
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:16,880
Speaker 3: That's very good advice, Amantha. I love your love story.

977
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:20,400
Speaker 3: I'm so happy for you and Neo. I'm so happy.

978
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 3: I can't wait to see your wedding pictures somewhere, and

979
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:27,840
Speaker 3: thank you also for your wisdom.

980
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:28,600
Speaker 2: As always.

981
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:36,280
Speaker 3: Look, I just love that conversation. Amantha is getting married

982
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:39,400
Speaker 3: in March to Neo, and what I particular love about

983
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:42,080
Speaker 3: that is, you know, my gran would have said, every

984
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 3: pot has its lid. If your pot is a little

985
00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:50,439
Speaker 3: bit different to other people's pots, that's okay. I love

986
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 3: how specific Amantha was. It's a wonderful story. But if

987
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:58,240
Speaker 3: you are after more dating stories about midlife, then please

988
00:49:58,280 --> 00:49:59,880
Speaker 3: do listen to the episode I told you about it

989
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:01,880
Speaker 3: Front with Catherine Mahoney.

990
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:02,800
Speaker 2: It's very funny.

991
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 3: But also if you are in the throes of divorce

992
00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:08,640
Speaker 3: and you're going through the horrors of that, that can

993
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:12,160
Speaker 3: be incredibly difficult, knock you around unbelievably. I want you

994
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:13,800
Speaker 3: to go and listen to the episode we did with

995
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 3: Nicki Parkinson because it is raw and uplifting in a

996
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 3: way that we don't hear people talking about divorce very often.

997
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 3: As always, I want to thank you all mids for

998
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 3: being here with us for these big conversations that we're having.

999
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:30,480
Speaker 3: Please jump on and follow us on Instagram. DM me

1000
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:32,839
Speaker 3: with any ideas about the show. You'll find me on

1001
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:35,799
Speaker 3: Instagram too, at Waynwright, Holly, and I'd love to hear

1002
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 3: your thoughts. Don't forget to give us a rating horror review.

1003
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:41,920
Speaker 3: It really helps other people find MID. And of course

1004
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:44,160
Speaker 3: I want to offer a massive thank you to our team.

1005
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 3: The MID team is executive producer nam A Brown, senior

1006
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 3: producer Grace Ruvre, and producer Charlie Blackman. And we've had

1007
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:56,000
Speaker 3: sound design and production by Jacob Brown. And I'm your host,

1008
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:58,800
Speaker 3: Holly Wainwright and I'll see you back here next week

1009
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 3: for more Mid