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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Seies the YA Podcast. Busy and happy

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Speaker 1: are not the same thing. We too rarely question what

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Speaker 1: makes the heart seeing. We work, then we rest, but

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Speaker 1: rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than

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Speaker 1: one way. So this is a platform to hear and

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Speaker 1: explore the stories of those who found lives they adore,

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Speaker 1: the good, bad and ugly. The best and worst day

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Speaker 1: will bear all the facets of seizing your yea. I'm

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Speaker 1: Sarah Davidson or a spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned

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Speaker 1: unentrepreneur who swapped the suits and heels to co found

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Speaker 1: matcha Maiden and matcha Milk bar cz The Ya is

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Speaker 1: a series of conversations on finding a life you love

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Speaker 1: and exploring the self doubt, challenge, joy and fulfillment along

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Speaker 1: the way. Lovely yighborhood. This episode has been a long

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Speaker 1: time coming with a guest I've admired for many years now.

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Speaker 1: We have one of those relationships that's so unique to

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Speaker 1: our modern digital lives where we haven't actually met in

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Speaker 1: person yet somehow, but have followed each other's work and

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Speaker 1: lives for some time, have many mutual friends, and had

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Speaker 1: just so much to talk about this first time we

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Speaker 1: sat down for a proper conversation. As you'll hear, that

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Speaker 1: means I strayed all over the place from my usual

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Speaker 1: structured thinking. I just had so many questions on so

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Speaker 1: many topics. And once you learn a bit more about

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Speaker 1: Teung Trauler, you'll understand why he's an expert on so

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Speaker 1: many different things. Teung is not only a fellow former lawyer,

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Speaker 1: but is also wait for this list, an author, a

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Speaker 1: keynote speaker, an anti violence campaigner, a gender equality and

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Speaker 1: mental health advocate, former independent political candidate, and even a

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Speaker 1: commissioner at the Victorian Multicultural Commission. And that is only

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Speaker 1: reading half his bio. So it really was impossible to

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Speaker 1: feel like I did anything more than scratch the surface.

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Speaker 1: And I suspect that this won't be our only chat

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Speaker 1: on the show. Just a little content warning. We also

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Speaker 1: cover one of the catalysts for Teung's incredible work and activism,

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Speaker 1: being the tragic murder of his younger sister, Nikki at

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Speaker 1: the age of twenty three by her then husband, as

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Speaker 1: well as the impact of this on his own mental health,

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Speaker 1: and we briefly touch on suicide. So please do take

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Speaker 1: care while listening and I've included in the show notes

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Speaker 1: a list of resources and helplines should anyone listening need

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Speaker 1: to reach out at any time, Please don't hesitate. How

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Speaker 1: Tarang has come through this absolutely unimaginable tragedy and dedicated

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Speaker 1: himself to Nicki's legacy with his anti violence campaigning and

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Speaker 1: activism is nothing short of inspiring and actually opens up

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Speaker 1: a much more layered and complex conversation about joy in

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Speaker 1: life and the concept of yay than is usually the

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Speaker 1: case on this show, which was definitely something a bit different,

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Speaker 1: and I do hope it lands in the ears of

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Speaker 1: anyone out there who might need to hear it. I'm

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Speaker 1: so grateful for his time, his vulnerability, and his energy,

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Speaker 1: and I hope you guys find this as moving as

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Speaker 1: I did. Tarang, Welcome to CZA.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, Sarah. I know we've talked about

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Speaker 2: this for a while, so it's really good to be

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Speaker 2: on the show.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, it's been a long time coming, all

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Speaker 1: my fault, and you have been so patient and so gracious.

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Speaker 1: But the day is finally here.

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Speaker 2: I know, let's chat, let's talk, let's chat.

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Speaker 1: So I do this thing all the time where I

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Speaker 1: get way too far into the research about your life,

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Speaker 1: and then I have too many dot points and I

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Speaker 1: already know I'm not going to get to all of them,

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Speaker 1: But oh my god, where do I begin? So there

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Speaker 1: are so many multi hyphenets out there like us, you know,

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Speaker 1: in this day and age, but not many of them

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Speaker 1: have as many slashes in their title as you do.

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Speaker 1: You are a commissioner, an author, a speaker, a lawyer,

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Speaker 1: an activist, a political candidate even, but also sartorial genius.

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Speaker 2: That's very kind, very kind.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I follow your activism, but I also follow

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Speaker 1: your oscars content, So I mean, what can't you do?

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Speaker 2: I look at you the same way I look at

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Speaker 2: so many who guessed the same way. I think that

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Speaker 2: maybe it's a generational thing. We're all just trying to

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Speaker 2: find what fits like. We don't have that that like

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Speaker 2: our parents' generation hadn't we. You go get a job,

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Speaker 2: you work somewhere for twenty five years or thirty five years, whatever,

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Speaker 2: and they give you when you retire, they give you

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Speaker 2: the Rolex watch with like thank you for your service

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Speaker 2: on the back right, and then there you are, like.

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Speaker 1: Which I think is it's the beauty I think of

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Speaker 1: living in this day and age is you never have

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Speaker 1: to settle for the one path where you can kind

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Speaker 1: of be satisfying all of the sides of your personality

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Speaker 1: at once. But it also is kind of like whenever

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Speaker 1: anyone mentions long service leave, I'm like, yeah, what, yeah,

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Speaker 1: what is that? What do you mean?

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Speaker 2: I'm like, you were at one place for ten years?

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Speaker 2: Like I can't commit to outfit choices for you know,

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Speaker 2: ten months years. I can't commit to anything for that

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Speaker 2: amount of time, right, other than maybe people, right, people

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Speaker 2: are the only thing that are like a constant where

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Speaker 2: I'm like pretty loyal rather.

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Speaker 1: Than It's like it's the Rolex watch. You know, they

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Speaker 1: dangle that at the end and you think, oh, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Off, this is probably so off topic for some of

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Speaker 2: your listeners, But I'm like a bit of a watch

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Speaker 2: feme and like my friends and I having conversations about

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Speaker 2: that very thing. It's weird that I brought that up

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Speaker 2: because it must be my subconscious because.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's actually in my notes because of your watch

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Speaker 1: content from the oscars.

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Speaker 2: Oh really, well, it's very hard to get one these days,

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Speaker 2: Like there's a whole waiting list situation.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's like the Birkenham.

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Speaker 2: I was about to say, it is like the masculine

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Speaker 2: equivalent of ermez Kelly or whatever of Berket, like it is,

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Speaker 2: that's the one. Right.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, you've done so well.

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Speaker 2: My handbacknowledge is is chop. No.

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Speaker 1: I can't believe you knew what A Kelly was.

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Speaker 2: Oh, thank you. I was reading art before. But I

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Speaker 2: think I think it's the same thing right where it's like,

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Speaker 2: buy fifty things you don't want, and then we'll put

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Speaker 2: you on a list to get you the one thing

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Speaker 2: you can do well.

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Speaker 1: I think we've kind of already answered the first question

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Speaker 1: about which you may know is what the most down

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Speaker 1: toward thing is about you? And I think it would

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Speaker 1: be really easy to put you on a pedestal, and

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Speaker 1: I do it myself because you are such an eloquent

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Speaker 1: and articulate speaker on topics that are big and heavy

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Speaker 1: and serious. And you know you're so well read and

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Speaker 1: such an intellect that you know she's got range. She's

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Speaker 1: got range.

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Speaker 2: That's very kind. That's a miss. I'm not as well

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Speaker 2: read as people think. Really, I'm really not. People think

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Speaker 2: I've read a lot, and I think it's because I

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Speaker 2: developed I got glasses when I was.

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Speaker 1: Like twelve, Is that the key to the perception.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've got glasses when I was twelve, and I

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Speaker 2: also developed facial hair quite early. And I think the

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Speaker 2: combination of having a beard at thirteen and wearing philosopher

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Speaker 2: like glasses and sitting there in class going like.

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Speaker 1: This, it's a beard stroke for sure.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, not because you're well read, but because you have

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Speaker 2: undiagnosed ADHD and are actually just bored.

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Speaker 1: Oh, you're just giving the air of intellect.

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Speaker 2: It's amazing people think you're smart. And you know what,

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Speaker 2: there's an old proverb where it's like better to keep

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Speaker 2: your mouth shut and be thought a full than to

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Speaker 2: open your mouth and remove all doubt, right, And I'm

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Speaker 2: like testing that theory. I'm going to open my mouth

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Speaker 2: as many times as possible and see when I eventually

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Speaker 2: say something ridiculous. And so far people have been very

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Speaker 2: gracious to me in that actually listen to what I

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Speaker 2: have to say, So I'm very lucky.

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Speaker 1: Well, that in itself is pretty much a testament to

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Speaker 1: the quality of what you have to say, because you

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Speaker 1: don't grow the audience and the platform that you have

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Speaker 1: now without saying really meaningful things about you know, meaningful

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Speaker 1: topics which you do so well, and that's kind of

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Speaker 1: already brought up the first question of the show, which

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Speaker 1: is really the idea that you have such an important

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Speaker 1: voice in the Australian landscape on so many important issues

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Speaker 1: like domestic violence, street harassment, men's mental health, women's mental health,

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Speaker 1: the experience of racism, and you know, it's easy to

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Speaker 1: assume that you knew you wanted to end up here,

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Speaker 1: or the pathway to get here was smooth, and the

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Speaker 1: places that you get a lot of airtime on these

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Speaker 1: issues and not necessarily on your pathway or what it

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Speaker 1: took to kind of shape that journey for you, which

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Speaker 1: is what I love to talk about on this show,

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Speaker 1: Like when you google you, for example, There's so much

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Speaker 1: from the last couple of years from your activism. There

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Speaker 1: are articles that have been written, there are campaigns that

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Speaker 1: you've been working on. There's so much about the now,

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Speaker 1: and for someone who's earlier on in their journey, who

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Speaker 1: are going through experiences that you went through earlier in

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Speaker 1: your life, it's often quite reassuring to hear more about

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Speaker 1: how you actually got there, what were all the pivotal

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Speaker 1: moments and what you went through to actually shape the

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Speaker 1: life that you have today. So can you take us

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Speaker 1: back to the very beginnings and trace to all those

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Speaker 1: chapters that helped form the turuque we know today?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Wow, I mean where do I It's strange like

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Speaker 2: when I think about that, you know, with all of

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Speaker 2: these conversations happening around, like the Indigenous Voice to Parliament,

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Speaker 2: and I've been seeing a whole bunch of people from

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Speaker 2: First Nations communities talking about it. When they get on

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Speaker 2: stages and stuff, they don't start by talking about themselves.

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Speaker 2: They start talking about like their mob and where they

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Speaker 2: come from. And their story always starts somewhere, and so

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Speaker 2: for me, it doesn't really start with me. It starts

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Speaker 2: with like my grandparents who were in what is modern.

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Speaker 1: Day Pakistan, Kistan, right, I've read that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and then they migrated south during the British occupation

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Speaker 2: of the region. And I think about my life here

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Speaker 2: in Melbourne, where we got to notice from the Council

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Speaker 2: that next week there's like eight hours of like a

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Speaker 2: planned power interruption and there won't be internet and stuff.

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Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, man, like can I swear yeah?

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Speaker 1: Sure?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I was like, oh fuck, Like, man, what am

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Speaker 2: I going to do? Like, how am I going to

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Speaker 2: live for eight hours internet? And here's like, here are

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Speaker 2: my grandparents who literally during like wartime are fleeing as

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Speaker 2: displaced people's right again to refugees. And I'm like, man,

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Speaker 2: a day without internet, that's going to be rough. And

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Speaker 2: I'm forward planning that I'm not going to be home

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Speaker 2: all day. And I'm like, I just go to Chadston.

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Speaker 2: Might just go the day of shopping.

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Speaker 1: There's air con there, there's control, yeah, high speed WiFi,

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Speaker 1: like you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I aspired to be one of the pensioners groups

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Speaker 2: who go on a Wednesday and have coffee at like

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Speaker 2: a muff and break and then and then go you know,

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Speaker 2: you see them at like Chadstone and like all the

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Speaker 2: westfields around around out. But so it sort of starts there.

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Speaker 2: My story sort of starts there. And then I was

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Speaker 2: born just outside of Delhi, New Delhi in India. And

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Speaker 2: I mean my parents right like they met through an

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Speaker 2: arranged marriage. They had like this whole thing, my mum.

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Speaker 2: A lot of people misunderstand arranged marriages.

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Speaker 1: But we actually have a few friends who had arranged marriages.

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Speaker 1: And the more you learn about them, the more. Actually

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Speaker 1: often they last, they last longer. They're based on I think,

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Speaker 1: different foundations to what people assume.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's normally not like it's it's not forced marriage, right,

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Speaker 2: People think of it as forced marriage sometimes and it

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Speaker 2: still occurs across different parts of the world. But essentially

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Speaker 2: it was like a facilitated introduction for my parents. But

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Speaker 2: the way that it happened is like my dad put

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Speaker 2: an ad in the Times of India newspaper, the broadsheet,

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Speaker 2: and he went into Connaught place in the center of

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Speaker 2: Delhi and he put an ad in and it was

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Speaker 2: just like you know, five foot nine engineer from x

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Speaker 2: y Z fans family seeks you know, life partner whatever,

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Speaker 2: I don't know, whatever he put And then my mom's dad,

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Speaker 2: my late grandfather, he saw it and it said that

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Speaker 2: my dad's family were from the same part of like

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Speaker 2: old Pakistan, that my mom's family was no way, and

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Speaker 2: they were like, well, we should go meet them, yeah,

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Speaker 2: And so they did. Like they met and my mom

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Speaker 2: had met like a few men, and you know, none

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Speaker 2: of them really took her fancy. And I even think

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Speaker 2: with my dad, she was just like, I don't know,

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Speaker 2: I'm a twenty She was like twenty four or something

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Speaker 2: twenty three, and she was like, I'm a young woman,

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Speaker 2: and I think this is a misconception people have about

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Speaker 2: women in other countries. It's like in Australia we often

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Speaker 2: look at other countries and go, oh, this are backwards

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Speaker 2: and stuff. And there's aspects of that, of course, right,

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Speaker 2: and really woeful statistics around some of the women's safety stuff.

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Speaker 2: But there's also like a lot of progressive people, right, like,

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Speaker 2: and modern day India is an example of that, right

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Speaker 2: where you've got a population of one point four billion,

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Speaker 2: right and hundreds and hundreds of millions on the cusp

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Speaker 2: of being like just that generation of New India. And

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Speaker 2: they're educated, and they're cosmopolitan, and they travel the world

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Speaker 2: and they're progressively minded. And it's like my mom was

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Speaker 2: sort of like, you know, part of that a generation ago.

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Speaker 2: And so she kind of met my dad, and my

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Speaker 2: dad was like he was a career oriented and a

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Speaker 2: very quiet man, and I think he asked my mom

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Speaker 2: what she knew about marine engineering, which is what my

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Speaker 2: dad was. He used to work on ships of the

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Speaker 2: Merchant Navy. And my mom was like, I don't know

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Speaker 2: anything about it, and I don't really care.

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Speaker 1: And my dad was like okay, like great shut down.

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Speaker 2: And then my mom asked him, how are women treated

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Speaker 2: in your family? Which I think is an amazing question

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Speaker 2: that like a lot of people should ask if their contemplaatedding,

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Speaker 2: marriage and long term relationships. It's like, how are the

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Speaker 2: other women treated around you? Right, because it's like and

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Speaker 2: my dad's answer was normal, I guess, like he'd never

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Speaker 2: really thought about it, and so when she probed him

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Speaker 2: on what normal meant, he gave her an answer that

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Speaker 2: she liked, right, And they went on some dates and

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Speaker 2: stuff and then met in like September of one year,

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Speaker 2: and then they got married in November of that year,

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Speaker 2: and they had like a three day long Indian wedding.

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Speaker 1: I love Indian weddings.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and North Indian weddings in particular, they go for

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Speaker 2: days at a time. So my mom still has her

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Speaker 2: like lnger. It's called her wedding langer. And this beautiful

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Speaker 2: silk number that weighs I think like seven or eight

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Speaker 2: was maybe.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, it's.

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Speaker 2: All like made by hand, and I mean you could

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Speaker 2: put a price on it, but in my family it's

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Speaker 2: this priceless, right, So yeah, she's still got it and

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Speaker 2: it's just stunning. And yeah, they met and then I

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Speaker 2: was I mean I was born and then we grew up.

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Speaker 2: I was born in India and then at eighteen months

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Speaker 2: we migrated to Australia.

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Speaker 1: I had to Port Lincoln, which is like raging. What

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Speaker 1: a raging spot to move to a one year old.

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Speaker 2: I really honored that you've gone and read this or research.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of it feels surreal because I admire and

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Speaker 2: respect you so much that someone else knows it's about me.

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Speaker 2: It's like, but yeah, Port Lincoln raging. I mean I

295
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Speaker 2: was a child, so I know, like like a baby

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Speaker 2: and infant, so I have no memory of it. I

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Speaker 2: don't remember anything about it. But I think my mom

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Speaker 2: going from like the hustle and bustle of Delhi, and

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Speaker 2: my mom in particular, she grew up in South Delhi,

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Speaker 2: which is very posh and think like Southiera turned up

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Speaker 2: a lot. That's where she kind of grew up. So

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Speaker 2: she kind of she went from that to Port Lincoln

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Speaker 2: and was just like, what have I done? Like I

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Speaker 2: have an infant with I've got a husband who is

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Speaker 2: a man I barely know, and have a child to

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Speaker 2: really because they hadn't you know, they hadn't been together

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Speaker 2: ten years. Then they get a house and they get engaged,

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Speaker 2: and it's not that story, right, It's like, literally two

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Speaker 2: years ago I met this man and now we are

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Speaker 2: on the other side of the world. Pre Internet, pre everything.

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Speaker 2: The only way to contact India was five dollars fifty

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Speaker 2: a minute phone calls.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, we've come such a long.

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Speaker 2: Life from the landline connected with all by cable.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 2: All letters write like handwritten letters, which took like two

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Speaker 2: weeks right to get there because it was an express

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Speaker 2: post or anything. So it was like, I really think

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Speaker 2: about my mom and my dad and both of them,

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Speaker 2: and I think about myself, and I think about all

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Speaker 2: the people I know in relationships, and I'm like, man,

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Speaker 2: that's some resilience, right, that's like some real ride or

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Speaker 2: die shit, Like you are committing to each other. So

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Speaker 2: they were committed to each other and they raised me

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Speaker 2: and that. But we didn't stay in Port Lincoln for long.

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Speaker 2: I think we stayed there weeks, if not months at most,

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Speaker 2: and then we settled in Melbourne after a while. And yeah,

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Speaker 2: I grew up in the suburbs of Melbourne. We moved

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Speaker 2: around a little bit from like you know, one bedroom

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Speaker 2: flat to another until my parents bought a home and

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Speaker 2: then shortly after my little sister, Nikki was born, And

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't have known if not for the benefit of

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Speaker 2: hindsight and as you experienced well growing up, that we

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Speaker 2: didn't have a lot of money, that we lived in

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00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:33,600
Speaker 2: absolutely like out outer suburbs. Like I had no concept

336
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Speaker 2: because as a kid, you don't really know any of

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Speaker 2: this stuff, right. Your world is just your immediate kind

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Speaker 2: of zone around you. I remember seeing people with substance

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00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,760
Speaker 2: misuse issues. I remember seeing like the effects of alcohol

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Speaker 2: and other drugs around the community, of violence and other things,

341
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Speaker 2: but not really knowing that as being anything abnormal. The

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Speaker 2: experience of like overt discrimination and violent discrimination, like you know,

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Speaker 2: getting beaten up, getting black eyes, going to the school

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Speaker 2: nurse's office and they're being sent home because I was

345
00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:06,639
Speaker 2: injured physically, that was like common, right, that happened often

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Speaker 2: enough that I still remember it. But it wasn't all bad, right,

347
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Speaker 2: It wasn't all negative. And I think some people don't

348
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Speaker 2: get that about like issues like racism or any kind

349
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Speaker 2: of discrimination, that it's not like a constant thing that's

350
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Speaker 2: happening all the time. There's like peaks and flows of it. Right,

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Speaker 2: So there's like an incident and then you that becomes

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Speaker 2: part of your psyche and the trauma stays with you

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Speaker 2: in different ways. And so it was like a childhood

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Speaker 2: that was marred by all of these incidents where like

355
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Speaker 2: I stopped playing footy because of getting beaten up on

356
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Speaker 2: the football field, right, and after the third time it happened,

357
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Speaker 2: I remember going to the tribunal because the other kid

358
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Speaker 2: got like charged with like punching me because the umpire

359
00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:46,760
Speaker 2: saw it. And then he, you know, he got led

360
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Speaker 2: off like and he didn't get in trouble for it.

361
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Speaker 2: And I remember my coach driving me home and I

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00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:54,720
Speaker 2: have this vivid recollection of that day where he drove

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Speaker 2: me home from the tribunal and the other kid didn't

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Speaker 2: get any like didn't get in for it. And when

365
00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:02,879
Speaker 2: we got home, I Mum pulled me out of footy,

366
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Speaker 2: and all I remember is not the injustice of that day,

367
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Speaker 2: because I was too young to understand all that stuff.

368
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Speaker 2: But I just remember being fascinated by this guy. He

369
00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,760
Speaker 2: drove this Holden commodore, and I just remember being fascinated

370
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Speaker 2: by his sports steering wheel.

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Speaker 1: I love that. That's your memory.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like that I was a kid, that was my

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Speaker 2: memory of it. I was like, man, And even now

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Speaker 2: even now, I'm like, man, I want that. I drive

375
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Speaker 2: Volkswagen golf and I'm like, I want that steering wheel.

376
00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:27,359
Speaker 2: I want to get that like sports steering wheel in

377
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Speaker 2: my cut.

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Speaker 1: That's the like defining memory of that whole experience is

379
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Speaker 1: not the racism or the court, but like, yeah, the

380
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Speaker 1: car obviously.

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Speaker 2: I mean the core process was intense because I've never

382
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Speaker 2: seen anything like it right at that age, and it's

383
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Speaker 2: so formal, and I wore a little suit and stuff and.

384
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Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's really cute. Yeah it was cute

385
00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:46,359
Speaker 1: in a horrible context, but very cute.

386
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Speaker 2: Yeah. I wore a little suit and stuff. But then

387
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Speaker 2: after that, my mum pulled me out because she was

388
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Speaker 2: just like, you can't, like you send your kid off

389
00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:55,320
Speaker 2: to do extracurricular activity or go to school or wherever

390
00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:57,399
Speaker 2: and be safe and have fun. And it was all

391
00:18:57,400 --> 00:18:59,679
Speaker 2: about teamwork and a bit of health and fitness and

392
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Speaker 2: like involved, you know. And I really loved footy, and

393
00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:06,280
Speaker 2: for years I just turned off the sport altogether because

394
00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:08,359
Speaker 2: I just had such negative experiences. And now when I

395
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,840
Speaker 2: see players of color, you know, making it into the AFL,

396
00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:15,720
Speaker 2: When I see them like speaking out about elements of racism,

397
00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:18,320
Speaker 2: and then I see positive responses from clubs, I'm like,

398
00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:22,200
Speaker 2: that's all we want, is just positive interaction. This isn't

399
00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:25,439
Speaker 2: about like saying everyone is horrible or bad or making

400
00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:27,320
Speaker 2: a bigger deal than we need to about things that

401
00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:29,119
Speaker 2: have happened in the past, but about how we go

402
00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,720
Speaker 2: forward to make things more positive for everyone. So, yeah,

403
00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:35,480
Speaker 2: like my childhood was one of those things where there

404
00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:37,920
Speaker 2: was a lot of a lot of experiences of discrimination,

405
00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:40,399
Speaker 2: but so many positives. We wouldn't have known Nicki and

406
00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,080
Speaker 2: I that money was tied even though my parents were

407
00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:46,080
Speaker 2: working multiple jobs and we were in childcare a lot

408
00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:50,439
Speaker 2: and kind of not seeing doubt as much as we

409
00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:54,399
Speaker 2: wanted to at times, we didn't feel that absence because

410
00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:56,280
Speaker 2: the love that we had when they were there was

411
00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:00,080
Speaker 2: really present. And as a sister, Nicki was amazing. She

412
00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,280
Speaker 2: is like the most loving person and that some of

413
00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:04,240
Speaker 2: your listeners might know. She was killed when she was

414
00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:06,479
Speaker 2: twenty three, and so I didn't get to have her

415
00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:08,320
Speaker 2: in my life for as long as you know, most

416
00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:10,320
Speaker 2: people get to have their siblings in their life. But

417
00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:14,399
Speaker 2: we got lifetimes of love in her twenty three years

418
00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:18,280
Speaker 2: of life. So feel really fortunate. And I'm just remembering back.

419
00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,399
Speaker 2: I listened to your episode with Alyssa Healy, who captain

420
00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:25,520
Speaker 2: a team in Mumbai a few months ago, and you

421
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:28,119
Speaker 2: asked me about like some of my you know, some

422
00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:32,720
Speaker 2: of my work and that people don't start where they

423
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,760
Speaker 2: where people noticed them, and she talked about how it

424
00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:38,640
Speaker 2: and what resonated me is that she talked about how

425
00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:40,760
Speaker 2: people think it just happened overnight, and she was talking

426
00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:43,560
Speaker 2: about the journey that it took for her breaking down

427
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:47,840
Speaker 2: every barrier as a woman in sport. And what resonated

428
00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:50,280
Speaker 2: with me is and it says adult saying where it's

429
00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,040
Speaker 2: like it takes ten years to become an overnight success.

430
00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,919
Speaker 2: Oh yeah. And I talk about this with like with

431
00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:01,320
Speaker 2: others that are in similar spaces where people will notice them,

432
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:03,720
Speaker 2: you know. And I know one of our mutual friends

433
00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:07,800
Speaker 2: in Maria Fatil twenty twenties Miss Universe Australia and just

434
00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,439
Speaker 2: all around legend and you know we've talked about that

435
00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,320
Speaker 2: her and I and she's also been on this great

436
00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:15,960
Speaker 2: loreal campaign that I've been working on and we've talked

437
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,360
Speaker 2: about that, where she's been, you know, chipping away doing

438
00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:21,640
Speaker 2: such important work, and then all of a sudden people

439
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:23,680
Speaker 2: are like, oh my god, you came out of nowhere.

440
00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:26,400
Speaker 1: And it's like, yeah, yeah, wow, you propelled onto the sea.

441
00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:28,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's like, not, I've been here. And I

442
00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,640
Speaker 2: think that happens a lot with women of color, right, Yeah,

443
00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,600
Speaker 2: where like all of a sudden it's just like whoa,

444
00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:36,480
Speaker 2: you're here out of nowhere. It's like, no, I've been

445
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:39,720
Speaker 2: doing amazing things, right and just chipping away.

446
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:41,760
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think about this all the time, and I

447
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,000
Speaker 1: think it's also it's not just women of color as

448
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:47,239
Speaker 1: well who experience this. It's anyone really who becomes a

449
00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,800
Speaker 1: voice or a spokesperson for a topic that traditionally hasn't

450
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,639
Speaker 1: been as commonly spoke about and that you know, it

451
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:56,360
Speaker 1: hasn't always had the same audience that it has right now.

452
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,080
Speaker 1: And I never explained this, right, but what I mean

453
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,040
Speaker 1: is kind of you know, things aren't trendy until they're trendy,

454
00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:04,200
Speaker 1: and just because you started talking about it ten years ago,

455
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:05,760
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean that you had the audience and the

456
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,000
Speaker 1: platform who were willing to listen ten years ago. But

457
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,240
Speaker 1: now it seems like you've just you know, propelled onto

458
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 1: the scene. But really, you started, as you said, chipping

459
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,800
Speaker 1: away bit by bit a long time ago, and it's

460
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,160
Speaker 1: taken you a long time to get there. It never

461
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,240
Speaker 1: happens overnight. And Maria and I have spoken about this

462
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:24,680
Speaker 1: too as well, that you know, she's been campaigning for

463
00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:27,840
Speaker 1: a bigger presence and more representation for women of color

464
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,679
Speaker 1: since well before people were actually ready to action that

465
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:34,160
Speaker 1: and before it was more commonly accepted, and before platforms

466
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:36,879
Speaker 1: would give her space and airtime to talk about that stuff.

467
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:38,960
Speaker 1: But to many people it appears like, oh, she'd just

468
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,040
Speaker 1: come out of nowhere, But no, she's actually been working

469
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 1: on it for such a long time. And I think

470
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,520
Speaker 1: that's why I really like tracing back through all the

471
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,119
Speaker 1: chapters that you had to go through, what you were thinking,

472
00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,639
Speaker 1: what your mindset was like at that time, Like you know,

473
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,040
Speaker 1: we have more than a few things in common. You

474
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,240
Speaker 1: went to Melbourne High, I went to mcgrob. You did

475
00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:58,359
Speaker 1: It's law. I did its law. And I think you

476
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,920
Speaker 1: know even that itself is of like that was a

477
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,560
Speaker 1: whole chapter and you had no idea that you were

478
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 1: going to end out where you are?

479
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:06,639
Speaker 2: Did you go to mcrob that I didn't know? I

480
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,000
Speaker 2: know you? Yeah, I didn't know that you were at McGrath.

481
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:11,439
Speaker 2: Yeah I didn't know that I should really yeah, I

482
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,200
Speaker 2: didn't know that. Yeah, amazing, Oh my gosh.

483
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was like, that's my brother, Like we've done

484
00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:17,880
Speaker 1: the same thing.

485
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:23,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, Melbourne High boys need to well, my generation of

486
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 2: Melbourn High boys needed to be kinder to mcrop girls

487
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:30,200
Speaker 2: like we were not, Like we just said horrible things

488
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,679
Speaker 2: about them just because yeah, and they did nothing to

489
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:36,800
Speaker 2: warrant it. Like it wasn't friendly banter and teasing. It

490
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:42,440
Speaker 2: was just like unkind you know, vibes's just been projected

491
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:44,159
Speaker 2: out for no particular reason.

492
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:46,720
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I feel like there's a bit of

493
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,960
Speaker 1: healthy rivalry there and Melbourn High guys have not always

494
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 1: been nice to to mccrop girls, but also mcrop girls.

495
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 1: I mean, we had our noses in books. We weren't

496
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 1: always looking at boys. I mean, I obviously I was

497
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,399
Speaker 1: very distructive in school by Melbourn High boys, but not

498
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 1: everyone was, you know.

499
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,359
Speaker 2: I mean I have fond memories of my time, my

500
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,159
Speaker 2: time then right, Like so I was on the sc

501
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:10,920
Speaker 2: at Melbourne High School, and that was like my way

502
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,120
Speaker 2: of being involved in things because it was such an

503
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 2: strongly academic environment and I felt really So I've been

504
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,680
Speaker 2: grappling with this concept of imposter syndrome a lot, right,

505
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:29,440
Speaker 2: And perhaps the controversial take is that I'm starting to

506
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,679
Speaker 2: think not as many people have imposter syndrome as maybe

507
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,239
Speaker 2: they do, right, But they have like a degree of

508
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 2: self awareness that like what their strengths and limitations are.

509
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 2: And so for me, my strengths and limitations were understanding

510
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 2: that in Melbourne High like I didn't necessarily belong academically,

511
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 2: like I didn't do as well as a lot of

512
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:52,200
Speaker 2: the others, right, they were like I was surrounded by

513
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 2: some just absolute, you know, incredible minds, and I remember

514
00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 2: like looking at people that I like, my peers, right,

515
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,440
Speaker 2: same age and everything, and just being like, fuck, you're

516
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 2: so smart man, Like how how does your brain do that?

517
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:08,199
Speaker 2: And I just remember going, my brain doesn't do that.

518
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 2: So I just gravitated towards the things that I liked,

519
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:15,119
Speaker 2: which was like Droot Sandstorm, what an era in organizing

520
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 2: high school social So I just did that. That was like,

521
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 2: that was my contribution to the school was just get

522
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 2: on the sise and organized parties and events, and so

523
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,640
Speaker 2: I have like fond memories of that, Like one year,

524
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 2: did you ever go to a like a social at

525
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 2: the Memorial Hall?

526
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 1: Did I go to a social at the Memorial Hall?

527
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 1: I tore up the Memorial Hall dance floor.

528
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 2: Amazing, amazing, it's so good.

529
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 1: When were you there?

530
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:41,440
Speaker 2: I was there two thousand and one to two thousand

531
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 2: and four.

532
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 1: Ah, so maybe some crossover.

533
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 2: Yeah three, Okay, that's some crossover.

534
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 1: There's some crossover.

535
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:52,919
Speaker 2: So you're at the junior socials when I was at

536
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 2: the senior.

537
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 1: Socials, or I was like hijacking the senior socials because

538
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 1: I was like getting older men.

539
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,119
Speaker 2: Oh wow, yeah, okay, there you go. There you go.

540
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 2: One year just before you started. So two thousand and two,

541
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 2: the power went out at the junior social at Memorial Hall.

542
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,640
Speaker 2: And I was in year ten, and I remember the

543
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,359
Speaker 2: only thing that worked. So basically there was a band playing, right,

544
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,879
Speaker 2: and the power went out because the amp like short

545
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 2: secuit it or something. And then you've got a whole

546
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,120
Speaker 2: bunch of teenagers in a room in the dark and

547
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 2: nothing works except for myself for two microphones. And it's

548
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,119
Speaker 2: like chaos. And then me and a friend got up

549
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,400
Speaker 2: on the mic and I beatboxed and he freestyle wrapped,

550
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 2: and they were like, you can't beatboxed. No, I can't anymore,

551
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 2: but I used to try as a kid.

552
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 1: Okay, amazing, And.

553
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 2: It was literally I would have been like fifteen, but

554
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 2: it was honestly the best day of my life. And

555
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 2: I've been chasing that high ever since for just decades.

556
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 1: Like that is you picked too early? Oh my god, that.

557
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 2: Was my everest. I picked at fifteen when when I

558
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,120
Speaker 2: grabbed the microphone and beat box of five minutes until

559
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,639
Speaker 2: the power went back on and there was no music

560
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 2: right for a good thirty seconds, which is an eternity

561
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,120
Speaker 2: when you're a fifteen year old and like all your

562
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,679
Speaker 2: hormones are going on. You've probably been engaging in like

563
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,120
Speaker 2: preese and your parents don't know how much you've actually

564
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 2: been drinking freeze.

565
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:18,120
Speaker 1: Oh my god, yeah, I remember those Freeze. I don't

566
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 1: even remember going out basically. I mean, like, who remembers that.

567
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 2: We're both in Melbourne, so we were locked down for

568
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 2: a good two years, so I think it.

569
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's fair we've got some catching out.

570
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 2: Well, we don't remember that, but yeah, that was like

571
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,400
Speaker 2: my time at Melbourne High. It was this strange thing

572
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 2: of like trying to find ways to fit in and

573
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,679
Speaker 2: trying to find ways to understand where my sense of

574
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 2: what being a man meant, my own sense of masculinity,

575
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 2: my own earlier experiences of racism, which didn't continue, thankfully,

576
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:48,639
Speaker 2: in the same way at Melbourne High because there was

577
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 2: such cultural diversity. I don't know if you found that

578
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,679
Speaker 2: at MCROB. Because of such cultural diversity that like all

579
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 2: of a sudden when your ethnic group becomes part of

580
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 2: the majority, visibly the script flips a little bit, but

581
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 2: it's it's really interesting, Like a lot of the environment

582
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 2: that I grew up in around those spaces is what

583
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 2: like and the conversations that we have now. I'm very

584
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 2: conscious of any conversations about discrimination, particularly from people in

585
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,919
Speaker 2: our sort of broad age bracket, have been grounded in

586
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 2: a context of we probably said and did this stuff

587
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 2: ten fifteen years ago. Well we know better now because

588
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,679
Speaker 2: this idea that all my friends, like people my age

589
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 2: calling them friends right have the like we've never said

590
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,959
Speaker 2: or done anything bad is so dishonest, right, Like I

591
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 2: grew up listening to doctor Dre like I've had a

592
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 2: misogynistic thought in my life.

593
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 1: Like misogynistic thought singular.

594
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 2: You get what I mean, right, Yeah, where it's like,

595
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 2: of course you have like And the sign of growth

596
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 2: and progress isn't being like I've never had it, it's

597
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 2: being like, I've learned X, Y Z, and therefore I'm

598
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 2: going to do something about it. And then I'm going

599
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 2: to do something so that other people understand it as well.

600
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 2: Not because I'm better or anyone's better, but because we're

601
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,719
Speaker 2: all collectively better as a result. You know, we're all safer,

602
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 2: more inclusive, more, you know, understanding whatever the case is.

603
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 1: That kind of touches back on what I was articulate

604
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 1: well trying to say and not articulating very well before.

605
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: And oh my god, I also realized I have not

606
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 1: been following a structure whatsoever in this episode because I'm

607
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 1: just there's so much to talk about it, and I'm

608
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 1: so fascinated by it all. But you know, coming back

609
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 1: to that idea that you have really been speaking about

610
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 1: these topics for so long and in such a way

611
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 1: that you've learned and progressed and got it wrong and stumbled,

612
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 1: and then you do help other people to be able

613
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 1: to feel comfortable to enter this space and start speaking,

614
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 1: even if they might make a mistake or say the

615
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 1: wrong thing. And I think sometimes people are so scared

616
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 1: to say the wrong thing and get canceled that often

617
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 1: they just refrain from discourse at all. And I think

618
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 1: you do really well at encouraging people that it's better

619
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 1: to try and maybe get it wrong and and learn

620
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 1: then to not speak about these things at all. But

621
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 1: you also had to start somewhere, and I think again

622
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 1: people underestimate you don't just get handed a laureal ambassadorship

623
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 1: for an anti harassment campaign the day you decide to

624
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 1: be an activist. You've been chipping away, as you say,

625
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 1: And you know, I think it's coming back to that

626
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 1: whole pathway thing and all the steps that it took

627
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 1: to get here. You've been speaking about these important issues,

628
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 1: are particularly domestic violence, since twenty fifteen, and so I

629
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 1: know we I don't want to labor this chapter of

630
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 1: your life too much. But as much as you were

631
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 1: comfortable speaking about, you know, can you take us through

632
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 1: how it all happened, how things changed for you, and

633
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 1: how you did start speaking about things like domestic violence.

634
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 1: You turned a huge and unimaginable trauma in your life

635
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 1: into something so positive.

636
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean, and the trauma, right is like

637
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 2: my sister's murder in twenty fifteen. It changed a lot, right,

638
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 2: And it's so hard to articulate in a way that

639
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 2: I wanted to make sense to everyone, But sometimes it

640
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 2: doesn't even make sense to me. So how can I

641
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 2: make sense of it? And the reason I say that

642
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 2: doesn't make sense to me is like, we're biological siblings,

643
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 2: so we buy default share fifty percent of the same DNA, right,

644
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 2: So at like I genuinely felt, and this sounds hippie

645
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 2: and whatever, but I felt like a part of me

646
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 2: died right with my sister. But as I learned over

647
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 2: time through different forms of advocacy, it's that talking about

648
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 2: my sister giving life to her in death as well

649
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 2: as countless others, was my own way of healing, and

650
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 2: it's my own way of recovery. And I've very recently

651
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 2: actually just been speaking at and hosting this conference for

652
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 2: the National Trauma and Recovery Conference related to Domestic family

653
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 2: and Sexual Violence, and it sort of dawned on me

654
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 2: literally while I was on stage that that's what a

655
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 2: lot of this is that this is actually my own

656
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 2: form of healing and recovery and trauma, and it was

657
00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 2: like giving meaning to what my family's experience. It's what

658
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 2: Nicki went through. But initially it didn't start there in

659
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 2: twenty fifteen. It actually was born out of a sense

660
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 2: of injustice and a sense of anger, and particularly the

661
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 2: way that Niki's death was reported, on the way that

662
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 2: it was handled in the courts, particularly initially, And the

663
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 2: vindication that we got as a family was that the

664
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 2: judge who was responsible for sentencing the man who killed

665
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 2: my sister said in his comments that nothing Nikki de

666
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 2: Joula did in any way whatsoever contributed to what you

667
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 2: chose to do to her. And I felt vindicated by

668
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 2: that because we live in a society that often blames victims,

669
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 2: particularly women, but all victims for what happens to them. Right,

670
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,239
Speaker 2: It's like what were they wearing, or why were they

671
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 2: out late at night or all of these things, right,

672
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 2: even if it's just like behaviors like cat calling, right,

673
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 2: which is obviously very very different to like taking a

674
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 2: weapon and physically harming someone, right, but still has an

675
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 2: impact on the person who is subjected to it. So

676
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,040
Speaker 2: it was born out of this sense of injustice, just

677
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 2: and anger. Initially that I was like, hang on a minute,

678
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 2: I want to course correct the record. And I think

679
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 2: it's because of the stuff we talked about earlier that

680
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 2: might come from this, you know, ancestry of my grandparents

681
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 2: being who they are and you know, migrating across borders

682
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 2: as refugees and my parents coming and starting again and

683
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 2: raising Nicky and I with not much but finding a

684
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 2: way to get through and making sure that we had

685
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 2: love around us at all times. That I was just like, well,

686
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 2: I don't really know how the Australian media works. I

687
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 2: don't really know how powerful these institutions are, but I'm

688
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 2: just going to start saying what I think. And sometimes

689
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 2: when people come to me now and they're like, how

690
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 2: can I become an advocate? I sometimes have to give

691
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 2: them the well, I'll always give them honest advice, but

692
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 2: sometimes I have to give them the difficult reality of

693
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 2: the honest advice, which is not everyone's going to like

694
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 2: what you have to say. You know, particularly if they

695
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 2: belong to certain institutions. They're not going to enjoy being

696
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 2: told that their inherent problems with the institutions because they

697
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 2: take it as a personal upfront, and so I try

698
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 2: to separate the institutions from the people behind them, as

699
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 2: well as the behaviors from the person. And I've made

700
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 2: mistakes at different times, so I think, you know, in

701
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 2: certain instances, I've gone very hard on certain people where

702
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 2: I reflect and go, oh, I don't know if I

703
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 2: helped there as much. But I find myself now at

704
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 2: a place where it's like I'll always try to, as

705
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 2: you said, invite a conversation to get towards progress. Like

706
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:29,760
Speaker 2: we're living in a time where there are so many

707
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 2: broad social issues that are touching on all of us

708
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 2: in this country that it's like we don't have time

709
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 2: or space to be more divided. We need to sort

710
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 2: of find the common ground and the common human experiences

711
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 2: and build from that, particularly after COVID, where so many

712
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,319
Speaker 2: of us were separated from the people that we love,

713
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 2: just a lot of in our homes or going through

714
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:52,719
Speaker 2: whatever struggles we were going through. And so I don't know,

715
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 2: it's just been this whole journey where since twenty fifteen,

716
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 2: I've just tried to speak out about what matters. And

717
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,360
Speaker 2: initially it was borne out of a sense of anger

718
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 2: and injustice, and then over time as I did the

719
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 2: work to come to terms psychologically with the fact that yes,

720
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 2: Nikki was murdered. No, it was not my fault. The

721
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 2: blame lies squarely with the perpetrator. No, it was not

722
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 2: my family's fault. In spite of all the criticisms that

723
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:16,919
Speaker 2: we've received online and some of the trolling that we've

724
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,839
Speaker 2: been sent as a family, particularly at the kind of

725
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 2: that's been directed at my parents in particular, has been

726
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 2: really hurtful to me as their child, because it's just like,

727
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 2: I know who they are and they're not responsible for

728
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 2: what was done to Nikki, and yet this kind of

729
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 2: public perception that occurred, and as well, as you know,

730
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:42,280
Speaker 2: coming from a fairly tight knit South Asian Indian community,

731
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 2: this look of like pity that my parents got initially

732
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 2: really bugged me because it was like, why do you

733
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 2: feel like sympathized with them but don't feel pity for them,

734
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 2: Like they're not They're not a basket case now. And

735
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,840
Speaker 2: it's been really kind of strangely along the way, and

736
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:02,880
Speaker 2: it's a lie in many ways, Sarah. It will be

737
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:08,280
Speaker 2: a lifelong journey, right because that grief of losing someone

738
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 2: before their time. I grieve now, not for myself. I

739
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 2: grieve for the missed opportunities for Nikki. You know that

740
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:21,799
Speaker 2: she recently would have had her thirtieth birthday, and I

741
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,360
Speaker 2: just think, Wow, I remember back to my thirtieth birthday

742
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,279
Speaker 2: and being on the cust were thinking, Oh my god,

743
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,319
Speaker 2: I'm thirty. I haven't done anything with my life. Oh

744
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 2: my god, I'm also thirty. I've still got ages. All.

745
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, well I've got time, You've got time.

746
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:39,879
Speaker 2: And I just think what she could have achieved, particularly

747
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,359
Speaker 2: because in the context of who we were as siblings,

748
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 2: I was someone who I see a bright light, I

749
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 2: get distracted, and I go follow that line and tell her,

750
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 2: you know, the shiny thing, and then just meander around

751
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 2: and eventually figure it out. And there's no there's no

752
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 2: rhyme or reason to how we got there, but we

753
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:57,759
Speaker 2: get there in the end, and if we're not there,

754
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 2: it's not the end. Yet. Whereas my city had a

755
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 2: sense of ambition and a quiet conviction, right, she would

756
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:10,760
Speaker 2: present us very shy, very quiet, and almost meek at times,

757
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:12,840
Speaker 2: and like she had no self belief, and at times

758
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 2: she suffered from crippling self doubt. Yet the flip side

759
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 2: of that was because she was almost like a born

760
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 2: performer right than performing arts. And she was performing from

761
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 2: the age of like four.

762
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 1: Didn't she found a Bollywood group or a Bollywood business.

763
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, a Bollywood and contemporary funk dance business. Ye. That

764
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 2: actually choreographed a video clip for and was planned and

765
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 2: she'd plan to go on tour with this group from

766
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 2: Brooklyn called Naturally Seven, who for ten years opened for

767
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 2: Michael Boublay. And she met them because at fourteen she

768
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:48,799
Speaker 2: went up to them. So the first time they came

769
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 2: on tour with Michael Bouble to Australia, they're done like

770
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 2: all around, like different European cities. The first time they

771
00:37:55,640 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 2: came to Australia and with Michael Bouble and they formed

772
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 2: the Melbourne Scholt Rod Laver Arena afterwards because they were

773
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:07,799
Speaker 2: small then, right, but big enough that Michael Boublay took

774
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:08,799
Speaker 2: notice of them.

775
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 1: That's still pretty big, yeah.

776
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:14,799
Speaker 2: Like small, like not like boubla big, but like big

777
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 2: enough to open for him or certainly to have his

778
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 2: vote of confidence. So they were there and then afterwards

779
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 2: they're like, hey, we're going to be out the front

780
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 2: and you can come grab our CDs back when people

781
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:26,879
Speaker 2: still got CDs, and Nicki went up to them, It's

782
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 2: like precocious young teenager just to like stuck out a

783
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 2: hand and was like, Hi, I'm Nikki. I'm a choreographer,

784
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 2: and I reckon that we could work together and really

785
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 2: like hone in on you know, these steps as part

786
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 2: of your thing, and I reckon there's a whole market

787
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,759
Speaker 2: out there for you that is. And I was just

788
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 2: like sitting there in the background and be like, who

789
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 2: the fuck does this kid think? She was like yeah,

790
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:53,919
Speaker 2: Like and they're like seven black dudes from Brooklyn, and

791
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:58,319
Speaker 2: after Nicki's death, they were touring in their own right

792
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 2: across Australia and they actually came over to my parents'

793
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 2: house for dinner. And they're like seven black dudes who

794
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 2: and five of them came for dinner and they occupy

795
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 2: space right like in a room. They've got their presence

796
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:15,399
Speaker 2: as well as their physical stature of being like six

797
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:19,759
Speaker 2: foot three and broad and obviously you know, being performers,

798
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 2: having commanding voices and stuff. So it was like this

799
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:26,279
Speaker 2: really fascinating thing of just like them being there in

800
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,319
Speaker 2: our home. But before that all of that, Nicki just

801
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:31,800
Speaker 2: went up to these guys that she didn't know, introduced

802
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,880
Speaker 2: herself and they were like, yeah, okay, we'll be in touch.

803
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:38,800
Speaker 2: And then what happened after Nicki's death was hearing from

804
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 2: the leader of the group, Roger, about how my sister

805
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 2: was to work with right and if anyone interested in

806
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 2: their work, Like one of their clips went viral where

807
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 2: they were on the French subway in Paris singing phil

808
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,359
Speaker 2: Collins in the air tonight all like a power Yeah,

809
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 2: that's I think that one of the most famous clips.

810
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 2: But yeah, she like just work with them, And it

811
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 2: was really credible hearing from him and a couple of

812
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 2: others in the group about my sister as a performer

813
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:08,480
Speaker 2: and as a choreographer in her work, because to me,

814
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:10,840
Speaker 2: she was like my little sister. She's an annoying, little brady,

815
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:14,319
Speaker 2: lovable kid and she always will be. But the other

816
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 2: side of her was this kind of like professional, intelligent,

817
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 2: ambitious woman And so for me it's like, yeah, my

818
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 2: advocacy was born out of just wanting to give voice

819
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 2: to that. And with all of the people whose stories

820
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 2: I've shared, it's never about the circumstances in which they died,

821
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 2: because often people will say to me, I know your

822
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 2: sister's story or I know xyz person's story, and I

823
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 2: just think, and I never correct people because I don't

824
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 2: think this is what they mean, but what they're really saying,

825
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:41,439
Speaker 2: and I don't think they mean this, but what they're

826
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:44,399
Speaker 2: saying is I know how your sister died, not who

827
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 2: she was. Who she was was twenty three years of

828
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,880
Speaker 2: her life. The act of violence that took her was

829
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 2: not even her own. It was someone else's choice, right,

830
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:55,360
Speaker 2: And I think the stories of people are far more

831
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 2: than the circumstances of their death. And I think this

832
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 2: about everyone, right. I think about this in terms of,

833
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:03,319
Speaker 2: like I've just seen lately the ovarian cancer awareness and

834
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 2: people say, oh, you know, I know your aunt's story

835
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 2: or I know this, and it's like an aspect of it, yeah,

836
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 2: like the most traumatizing aspect of it. But the real end,

837
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 2: the end, Yeah, the reality is the life. And I

838
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 2: think we do well to share more of the stories

839
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:19,839
Speaker 2: of the lives of these people, because when you look

840
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 2: at the collective loss to society, and what I grieve

841
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,240
Speaker 2: in Nikki is not my own loss. It's the loss

842
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 2: of all of the opportunities for her. And I think

843
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,319
Speaker 2: about that for everyone, whether it's through violent means or

844
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 2: any inadvertent early death, accidental cancer, violence from another person,

845
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 2: it's just like, oh shit, like they could have done

846
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,799
Speaker 2: anything they wanted if they had the time. And so

847
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:45,439
Speaker 2: it's really changed a lot for me. It's changed little stuff, Sarah,

848
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 2: where I don't My grandfather died recently, had an extended

849
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:53,879
Speaker 2: family member passed away just yesterday in and like it's

850
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 2: totally I don't feel sad like I feel. I feel

851
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 2: a sense of loss, like oh, it's a shame, but

852
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:01,919
Speaker 2: I feel I don't get sad in the same way

853
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 2: because it's the fact that Nikki died early and the

854
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:08,919
Speaker 2: fact that she died under such horrible circumstances, like real

855
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 2: painful violence circumstances. If someone lives a full life like

856
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 2: my grandfather did and others who have passed away recently,

857
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:17,719
Speaker 2: I just feel happy for them. I'm like, you've got

858
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 2: to do everything that life has to offer. Yeah, and

859
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:24,359
Speaker 2: I missed them, and I'm sad for you know them

860
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:26,799
Speaker 2: and all of that, but I'm not sad in the

861
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 2: same way. It's different, you know. I'm like, I feel

862
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 2: gratitude more than anything. You know, if you get to

863
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 2: live a full life.

864
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 1: You've won that is this is something that I mean,

865
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:40,440
Speaker 1: you are such an amazing advocate and spokesperson for statistics

866
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 1: and causes, and I really want to get into the

867
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:45,719
Speaker 1: role with Laurel and the campaign you've done recently. But

868
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 1: what I think you're also a wonderful advocate for that

869
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:50,360
Speaker 1: isn't spoken about as much, just because it's obviously not

870
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:53,279
Speaker 1: the main focus is the fact that on this show

871
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:55,880
Speaker 1: we talk about joy, right, which is sometimes quite an

872
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:59,239
Speaker 1: artificial thing to talk about in a world where this

873
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 1: kind of thing does happened, this level of trauma and

874
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 1: violence can happen. And I often say to people, when

875
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 1: you look back, all the dots often connect that led

876
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:08,719
Speaker 1: you to where you are today. And you know, it's

877
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 1: really easy to sort of understand life's ups and downs

878
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:13,800
Speaker 1: when you think everything happens for a reason and you

879
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,239
Speaker 1: win or you learn, and everything shapes who you are.

880
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 1: But in a situation like yours, it's not really appropriate

881
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:21,440
Speaker 1: to say everything happens for a reason because that doesn't

882
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:25,400
Speaker 1: apply when there's some of life's greatest tragedies and horrors.

883
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 1: But yet you have become a person who can still

884
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 1: feel gratitude who can still front up to work, who

885
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:36,399
Speaker 1: has obviously had challenges in grief and mental health, and

886
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 1: it hasn't been rosy. But the fact that you can

887
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 1: articulate gratitude after going through something like that and then

888
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 1: be an ambassador that helps others through their journey is

889
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 1: quite remarkable. So the big question for you that not

890
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 1: many other people in the world can answer, is when

891
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:52,319
Speaker 1: something like that does happen and that is not a yay,

892
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 1: There is no I'm sure for many years of your life,

893
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 1: joy was not even a question. To have come through

894
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:01,919
Speaker 1: that now and be able to embrace speaking of things

895
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:05,359
Speaker 1: in a joyful way or find happiness in knowing that

896
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:07,360
Speaker 1: that will never go away. This is a lifelong journey.

897
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 1: As you said, you still find joy day to day.

898
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 1: How do you do that? How have you done that?

899
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 2: Yeah? I knew because I mean I listened to your podcast.

900
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:18,759
Speaker 2: I know that you talk about this with others, and

901
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 2: so I was really nervous about being asked this because

902
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 2: I genuinely I struggle with this, not because of my

903
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,440
Speaker 2: I mean in part because of my sister's death and

904
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:34,960
Speaker 2: the work that I do and the retraumatizing effects of that,

905
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 2: but also because I'm someone who lives with complex mental

906
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:42,839
Speaker 2: health conditions around depression, et cetera, and medicated, and at

907
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,399
Speaker 2: one point during the lowest parts of my life, made

908
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:49,239
Speaker 2: an attempt at a suicide attempt, and thankfully not in

909
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:51,799
Speaker 2: that space. I'd all want to live a very long time,

910
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 2: and seemingly in my family have the genes to do it.

911
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 2: Everyone lives for a very long time. So sorry to

912
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 2: the haters, but I'm sticking around. But like, yeah, it's

913
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 2: something that I grapple with daily, and it's and I

914
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 2: don't know where it comes from, but I grapple with

915
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:13,360
Speaker 2: it in the sense of like sometimes if I feel

916
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 2: too happy, I almost feel guilty, right, and it's because

917
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:22,080
Speaker 2: of all of the I think. It's like an intergenerational

918
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:26,000
Speaker 2: thing where I look at, like the sacrifices my grandparents

919
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 2: my parents have made, right, and I'm like, like, there

920
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 2: were years stretches of years where my dad didn't take

921
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 2: a holiday, and I swear, I swear that I've inherited

922
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 2: that where I'm like, I could go on holiday or

923
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:44,279
Speaker 2: I could keep working because hard work is important. And

924
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:46,719
Speaker 2: it's weird how they're like, do what you love and

925
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:49,759
Speaker 2: you'll never work it down your life. You will work right,

926
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 2: you'll love what you do, but you will.

927
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 1: And you'll be working.

928
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 2: Right, and then all the joy that comes from that

929
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:58,840
Speaker 2: will be sucked out of it, and eventually you'll be

930
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:01,920
Speaker 2: left with only work, nothing that you love. But no,

931
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 2: I just sometimes I feel a sense of guilt around that.

932
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 2: And for me, I derive joy from a lot of

933
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 2: the littler things now, like a lot of the because

934
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 2: I've found that all of the bigger things, whether it's

935
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:19,279
Speaker 2: material purchases or other aspects of life, don't really add

936
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 2: up to the promise, right Like I could go to

937
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:25,640
Speaker 2: the shops buy something and I'd feel happy for a while,

938
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:29,359
Speaker 2: but it will fade. Whereas if I have an amazing experience,

939
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:32,919
Speaker 2: like an incredible dinner with friends, or if I do

940
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:36,319
Speaker 2: something that I feel genuinely connected to someone, like I'm

941
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:40,839
Speaker 2: enjoying this conversation with you, right, this will be It's

942
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,879
Speaker 2: also joy for me today is the opportunity that after

943
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:45,799
Speaker 2: a long time, we get to have a conversation and

944
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 2: I'm going to message like five or six friends afterwards

945
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 2: and be like, hey, I got to talk to Sarah Davidson.

946
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 2: She's absolutely lovely. Like that that I think gives me

947
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 2: joy right lately and this is so pathetic right I

948
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:03,920
Speaker 2: downloaded the Tetras app to my and I'm currently in

949
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:05,720
Speaker 2: the top five Australia wife.

950
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:09,920
Speaker 1: Oh my god, shut up. I love this so.

951
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 2: For a day last week when I was in Sydney playing,

952
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:14,360
Speaker 2: I was number.

953
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:16,399
Speaker 1: One and oh my god, shut the fuck up.

954
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 2: Number rank in Sydney, number one.

955
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:21,120
Speaker 1: Can that be in your bio? Like that needs to

956
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:24,719
Speaker 1: go before activerset, before Youngest of the Year finalists, like

957
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 1: all the other things you do. Pale in comparison. I

958
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:28,600
Speaker 1: agree to number one in.

959
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 2: Tetris, Absolutely agree. Tetris is life because it's like it's

960
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:37,440
Speaker 2: how everything fits in, right, everything you gotta find ways

961
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:39,360
Speaker 2: to get everything to fit in. And I don't know

962
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:41,919
Speaker 2: why I'm obsessed with it. It's such like an arcade game.

963
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:43,280
Speaker 2: There's no graphics or anything.

964
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:46,440
Speaker 1: It's the single mindedness. I think. It's like the noise

965
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:47,400
Speaker 1: is blocked out.

966
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 2: And I often do some of my best thinking while

967
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:52,440
Speaker 2: playing Tetris. It's like a kind of one of those

968
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:54,240
Speaker 2: things called those balls that people's.

969
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:55,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, like stress balls.

970
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:57,759
Speaker 2: Stress balls. Yeah, it's something like you know, everything fits

971
00:47:57,760 --> 00:47:59,279
Speaker 2: together and then I go, oh, okay, this is how

972
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 2: I'm gona solf XZ problem in my life? And so yeah,

973
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:05,319
Speaker 2: what was the question again?

974
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 1: So I think one thing that I find that happens

975
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 1: often is that I don't get to explore the true

976
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:17,360
Speaker 1: complexity and subtleties around this source of joy or fulfillment

977
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:20,400
Speaker 1: in life, or the changing definition for people of success

978
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:23,399
Speaker 1: or what their life purpose is, because unless there has

979
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 1: been something like what you've experienced with Nikki, the subtleties

980
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:28,960
Speaker 1: don't apply. For some people. It is purely like, do

981
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:30,920
Speaker 1: what makes you happy, don't do it doesn't make you happy.

982
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:33,399
Speaker 1: Like that's a very simple equation, But there's so much

983
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:35,959
Speaker 1: to explore here, Like the guilt is something people don't

984
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 1: often talk about.

985
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean like, I don't know, like you,

986
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 2: how do you articulate that? Right? By every like standard

987
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:50,480
Speaker 2: consumeristic measure like I got horspit loafers and I'll wear

988
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 2: them tonight.

989
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 1: You are fashion by the way, I.

990
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:57,319
Speaker 2: Got horsepit loafers. My suits are made to measure. I'll

991
00:48:57,360 --> 00:48:59,879
Speaker 2: wear a katier tank right to a recording a pod,

992
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:02,520
Speaker 2: like I don't need anything. I have everything. I have

993
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:07,359
Speaker 2: a roof over my head. My mum's freezer has enough

994
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:11,320
Speaker 2: food to feed, like me for several lifetimes, like everything

995
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:13,800
Speaker 2: I could possibly need in this life. At this point,

996
00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 2: I have most of it, right, Like I have most

997
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 2: of my health with me. So the sense of like

998
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:24,920
Speaker 2: joy for me, like I've almost reframed it as like

999
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 2: I just want to find contentment, I want to find peace, right,

1000
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:33,320
Speaker 2: And it's and that is so much harder, I reckon.

1001
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 2: It's so easy to find ways to get joy because

1002
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:38,600
Speaker 2: you can get immediate dopamine.

1003
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:40,880
Speaker 1: Hits like gratuity, that instant gratuity.

1004
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:43,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm guilty of spending way too much time

1005
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:46,279
Speaker 2: on TikTok right, saving video after video to go back

1006
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 2: later and laugh again, or you know, learn stuff about

1007
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:52,400
Speaker 2: the world whatever it is, or just cute dogs, whereas

1008
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 2: like it's me and my you know, me and my

1009
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:58,239
Speaker 2: bulldog have be be out in the park, you know,

1010
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:00,680
Speaker 2: or taking a walk and I get a flat white

1011
00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 2: and a banana bread and we're going for a walk.

1012
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 2: That is like everything is good in the world, Everything

1013
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:10,359
Speaker 2: is peaceful, everything is good, everything is right in the world.

1014
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:13,200
Speaker 2: And I feel very lucky, right, I feel joy in

1015
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:17,120
Speaker 2: things where like in my work when I'm traveling and

1016
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:20,879
Speaker 2: I get to be in cabs with different drivers from

1017
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:23,880
Speaker 2: or an Uber or whatever, different drivers usually from India

1018
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:27,759
Speaker 2: or Pakistan, whatever, and just hearing about their life, and

1019
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:31,080
Speaker 2: I just think I'm so lucky because my parents moved

1020
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:34,400
Speaker 2: here at an age where I got to grow to

1021
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:38,400
Speaker 2: school here, I got to experience all of the benefits

1022
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:41,400
Speaker 2: of an Australian education, which is not without its faults,

1023
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:46,160
Speaker 2: but I got so many opportunities. And a lot of

1024
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:48,520
Speaker 2: these people, particularly men, you know, and some of them

1025
00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:50,480
Speaker 2: around my age are a bit younger. I'm in very

1026
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:55,319
Speaker 2: different circumstances, very very different circumstances, and for me, it's like, well,

1027
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 2: my life could have been that. Like there's a brown dude,

1028
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:02,359
Speaker 2: I'm a brown dude. We're not that. We're not that, yeah,

1029
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 2: but we're not that dissimilar. I just feel lucky. I

1030
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:11,239
Speaker 2: feel lucky, Like honestly, I just feel lucky, like I

1031
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:13,319
Speaker 2: feel lucky, and I feel a sense of gratitude that

1032
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:15,840
Speaker 2: I'm still around and that I'm going to keep being around.

1033
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 2: And joy comes in different ways where there are times

1034
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:22,920
Speaker 2: where I feel content and happy and I'd rather chase

1035
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:26,200
Speaker 2: that than just go I need to do the next thing.

1036
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:27,840
Speaker 2: I need to do the next thing, and I feel

1037
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 2: very One thing I do feel happy about is that

1038
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:34,280
Speaker 2: I'm at a point there where if I drop dead tomorrow,

1039
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:37,759
Speaker 2: I don't plan to, but if I drop dead, I

1040
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:43,319
Speaker 2: would know that I've tried to do everything possible to

1041
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:45,239
Speaker 2: you know how they say, right, like when your parents

1042
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:47,759
Speaker 2: are trying to like inculcate values into you, like give

1043
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:50,920
Speaker 2: back more than you take, etc. Like I've tried to

1044
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:53,960
Speaker 2: do that, tried, Like I've actively tried to do that.

1045
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:58,200
Speaker 2: So you know, if I've failed, then at least I've

1046
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:01,120
Speaker 2: given it a really good crack. So I just I mean,

1047
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:03,680
Speaker 2: I don't know, and I'm really sorry because it's not

1048
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:05,880
Speaker 2: giving potentially like the best answer.

1049
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:08,680
Speaker 1: No, this is the perfect answer to rant.

1050
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:11,320
Speaker 2: That's the truth for me, right, Like that that pursuit

1051
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:13,920
Speaker 2: of like I've got to be happy, and it's like

1052
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:18,279
Speaker 2: it almost becomes too much, you know, like if you

1053
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 2: can find content, man.

1054
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:21,160
Speaker 1: The pressure of happiness.

1055
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, my dad is like the most content guy, right

1056
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 2: if I could be half as content as him. He's

1057
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 2: very he doesn't chase material objects, he doesn't care what

1058
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:35,920
Speaker 2: other people think. He's very comfortable in himself. And I think, wow,

1059
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 2: people can tell that, you know, and there's a consequence,

1060
00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:42,920
Speaker 2: he's very stylish, right because he likes he's himself, right,

1061
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:45,760
Speaker 2: you know, he's just himself and like, yeah, stuff doesn't

1062
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 2: face him or bother him.

1063
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 1: I love this, Like I think if you kind of

1064
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:54,080
Speaker 1: pull anything out from the idea of CCO, like, yes,

1065
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:57,200
Speaker 1: sometimes it's quite like happiness is a word we use often,

1066
00:52:57,360 --> 00:53:00,920
Speaker 1: But if I really wanted to force anything down anyone's throat,

1067
00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:04,280
Speaker 1: is that we look at happiness as this like pressure

1068
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:08,280
Speaker 1: of success and metrics and measurement. But really most people

1069
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:11,479
Speaker 1: from all walks of life, different experiences, different industries, different

1070
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:14,719
Speaker 1: levels of trauma, different like whatever it is. It's that

1071
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:18,680
Speaker 1: contentment and satisfaction and fulfillment, like those kind of words

1072
00:53:18,680 --> 00:53:21,520
Speaker 1: and emotions. That's the complexity of happiness and success.

1073
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:23,760
Speaker 2: Those are the emotions, yeah, and those are the emotions

1074
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:27,640
Speaker 2: that have like longer and you'd know far better than

1075
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:30,560
Speaker 2: I would, But the studies on happiness confirm that people

1076
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:33,399
Speaker 2: who feel that stuff are happy a long term.

1077
00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:35,080
Speaker 1: It transcends everything else.

1078
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:38,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, Whereas like that pursuit of like short sharp almost

1079
00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:41,480
Speaker 2: like highs like a drug, right that Dophoin hit and

1080
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:43,920
Speaker 2: then there's the colmdown and I remember, like there was

1081
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:48,080
Speaker 2: a period where my advocacy did get national recognition and

1082
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:51,560
Speaker 2: I was either one nor shortlisted a few awards and

1083
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:56,320
Speaker 2: they were in like quite quick succession. And I remember

1084
00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 2: telling my mom and she turned around to me and

1085
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:03,319
Speaker 2: she said better, which means son, She's like better, are

1086
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:07,799
Speaker 2: you happy? And it caused me to stop and be

1087
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:11,840
Speaker 2: what does that mean? And it changed me because it

1088
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 2: was like, yeah, like why am I doing this? Is

1089
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:19,000
Speaker 2: this external validation or is this personal fulfillment? And it

1090
00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:20,920
Speaker 2: was this journey where, like I was talking about earlier,

1091
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:23,879
Speaker 2: that I realized that some of my advocacy is borne

1092
00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:27,759
Speaker 2: out of my own healing. And I say no to

1093
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:33,280
Speaker 2: more things now than I say yes to, because I'd

1094
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:37,839
Speaker 2: learned that the opposite was burning myself out, it was

1095
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:40,560
Speaker 2: taking on too much, and it was often doing things

1096
00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:45,120
Speaker 2: for other people's fulfillment rather than my own. And so

1097
00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:49,320
Speaker 2: I found joy in a sense of creating boundaries, finding balance,

1098
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:52,799
Speaker 2: and figuring out a way that feels authentic to myself

1099
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:54,320
Speaker 2: as best as possible.

1100
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 1: I suppose the other thing that you said that seems

1101
00:54:57,320 --> 00:55:00,239
Speaker 1: really quite counterintuitive in any conversation about happiness, but I

1102
00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:02,239
Speaker 1: think is actually the most important measure. As you were

1103
00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:04,440
Speaker 1: mentioning you know, if you drop dead tomorrow, And I

1104
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:08,319
Speaker 1: think I read and refer back to that book, the

1105
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:10,880
Speaker 1: Seven Regrets of the Dying, which was people being interviewed

1106
00:55:10,920 --> 00:55:14,640
Speaker 1: on their deathbed, so morbid on its face, very anti ya.

1107
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:18,640
Speaker 1: Actually the most meaningful measure for me of joy is

1108
00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:23,920
Speaker 1: am I meeting what those people defined as their biggest regrets?

1109
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:24,040
Speaker 2: Like?

1110
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:26,160
Speaker 1: Am I living in a way that I wouldn't have

1111
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:28,759
Speaker 1: those regrets at any point along the way. And it's

1112
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:31,160
Speaker 1: morbid on its face, it seems like a weird thing

1113
00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:33,960
Speaker 1: to think about, but it actually means if you are

1114
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:36,080
Speaker 1: living in a way that you don't trust that you

1115
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:38,759
Speaker 1: will always have time, you won't have any regrets. Like

1116
00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:41,320
Speaker 1: to me, that's contentment, you know, like that's a beautiful

1117
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:44,160
Speaker 1: measure of having a good life. But having said that,

1118
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:48,120
Speaker 1: you have turned your passion, and as you mentioned, it

1119
00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:50,640
Speaker 1: started from kind of your own journey and your own healing,

1120
00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:53,200
Speaker 1: You've gone on to do some incredible work. And I

1121
00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 1: was reading one of your articles the other day about

1122
00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:58,280
Speaker 1: how you know, women still in this day and age

1123
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:01,440
Speaker 1: often have like I always have my keys in my

1124
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:03,960
Speaker 1: fingers when I'm walking back to my car at night

1125
00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:08,240
Speaker 1: alone and seventy eight percent of US women experienced harassment

1126
00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:11,200
Speaker 1: on the street even now, So this campaign that you've

1127
00:56:11,239 --> 00:56:13,360
Speaker 1: become an ambassador for one of my favorite companies to

1128
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:16,640
Speaker 1: work with, the Larel and their anti street harassment campaign

1129
00:56:16,719 --> 00:56:18,279
Speaker 1: in April, and this is one of the things that

1130
00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:21,120
Speaker 1: you have said yes to and just been on a

1131
00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:25,120
Speaker 1: national tour with. What does that now mean to you?

1132
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:28,439
Speaker 1: How do these campaigns now like this is your work

1133
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:30,359
Speaker 1: Now it's gone from something that happened to you just

1134
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:33,719
Speaker 1: something that you have turned into an amazing, amazing platform.

1135
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:38,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean a great question. So it's really scary

1136
00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:41,600
Speaker 2: right that like seventy eight percent of austrained women and

1137
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:45,160
Speaker 2: that was an IPSOS poll still report experiences of street harassment.

1138
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:50,400
Speaker 2: And when this campaign first started, I mean it started globally.

1139
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:53,719
Speaker 2: Laurel was involved in it before last year, but in

1140
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:55,920
Speaker 2: Australia it launched like last year, I think around like

1141
00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 2: September twenty twenty two when it first went live. And

1142
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:01,040
Speaker 2: at the time, it was like this whole kind of

1143
00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:07,440
Speaker 2: national really social media driven awareness raising campaign around anti

1144
00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:10,520
Speaker 2: street harassment training giving people and there's this thing called

1145
00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:14,040
Speaker 2: the five D's and it was giving people like a

1146
00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 2: way to be effective by standards and safely intervene and

1147
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:21,480
Speaker 2: the key word there is safely right. And so when

1148
00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:25,440
Speaker 2: we had conversations after the success of last year, we

1149
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:29,400
Speaker 2: talked about the fact that this happens in person, so

1150
00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:33,400
Speaker 2: how do we create something where we go to people

1151
00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:35,960
Speaker 2: where they are And we came up with this idea

1152
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:38,840
Speaker 2: of doing this National University Tool, which we've just wrapped up,

1153
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:42,000
Speaker 2: and we went to universities around the country where there

1154
00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:46,120
Speaker 2: was this just amazing panel that I had the real

1155
00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 2: pleasure and privilege to curate with people like our friend

1156
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:55,440
Speaker 2: Maria and thet Til and Chanel Contos activist and campaigner,

1157
00:57:55,960 --> 00:58:00,280
Speaker 2: as well as others April Elaine Horton, Alira Potter, we

1158
00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:04,160
Speaker 2: had a really a Saint Clair. We had Hannah Ferguson,

1159
00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:09,520
Speaker 2: the survivor and advocate. Saxon Mullins was in Sydney as well,

1160
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:13,600
Speaker 2: and so there was this whole kind of mix of

1161
00:58:14,040 --> 00:58:18,840
Speaker 2: women and non binary people with living experiences of street

1162
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:25,680
Speaker 2: harassment as well as expertise educating university students right on

1163
00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:29,840
Speaker 2: campuses and in exchange. Laier was very gracious to give

1164
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:32,760
Speaker 2: them free products and you know, they get their picks

1165
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:35,040
Speaker 2: taken and be part of a movement. And it was

1166
00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:39,320
Speaker 2: really empowering. You know, a brand that is about women's

1167
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:42,080
Speaker 2: empowerment for them to go into these spaces and actually

1168
00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:45,880
Speaker 2: create an inclusive environment where Planned International Australia as their

1169
00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:49,560
Speaker 2: charity partner doing this education and giving people avenues to

1170
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:52,480
Speaker 2: safely intervene. For me, it was like taking so many

1171
00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:56,800
Speaker 2: of the boxes of like big brands get a bad ramp, right,

1172
00:58:57,200 --> 00:58:59,160
Speaker 2: and some of them for very valid reasons when you

1173
00:58:59,160 --> 00:59:01,840
Speaker 2: hear about some of their care for practices, right, But

1174
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:05,840
Speaker 2: here was an example of a brand going we see

1175
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:09,000
Speaker 2: that this is a problem. Our mission is women's empowerment.

1176
00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:12,880
Speaker 2: If seventy eight percent effectively eight and ten right women

1177
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:17,040
Speaker 2: are experiencing this issue, are we just gonna do something

1178
00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:19,439
Speaker 2: tokenistic or are we going to actually put our money

1179
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:21,200
Speaker 2: where our mouth is and do something in their backset

1180
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:24,400
Speaker 2: and they did that ladder right. They actually were like, hey,

1181
00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:27,960
Speaker 2: here are things you can do right that will allow

1182
00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:30,360
Speaker 2: you to intervene in the moment, but also work towards

1183
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:33,440
Speaker 2: systemically changing the culture where this happens to women and

1184
00:59:33,480 --> 00:59:35,440
Speaker 2: none of the onus is on like what is a

1185
00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:37,600
Speaker 2: woman wearing or why is she got you know so

1186
00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:39,600
Speaker 2: much makeup on or anything like that. It's like the

1187
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:42,080
Speaker 2: woman or the non binary person or the man, whoever

1188
00:59:42,120 --> 00:59:44,480
Speaker 2: it is, can do or say or be whoever they are.

1189
00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:46,760
Speaker 2: They can be the most authentic self and it is

1190
00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:50,040
Speaker 2: everyone else's job to respect their expression of self. And

1191
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:54,560
Speaker 2: to me that was like so important, and so when

1192
00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:56,840
Speaker 2: they were like, would you like to be involved, It's like, absolutely,

1193
00:59:56,960 --> 00:59:59,040
Speaker 2: let's do it. And it was such a resounding success.

1194
00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:01,840
Speaker 2: And I think where hoping to get twenty thousand people

1195
01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:04,160
Speaker 2: trained up by the end of the year and expand

1196
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:08,040
Speaker 2: into different settings, whether it's like music festivals or other festivals,

1197
01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:10,520
Speaker 2: and really make it something that becomes the kind of

1198
01:00:10,600 --> 01:00:17,800
Speaker 2: thing where Lorial can do something that changes the statistics.

1199
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:20,000
Speaker 2: And I think they're really committed to doing that, you know,

1200
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:22,920
Speaker 2: And I really value that because we live in a

1201
01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:25,120
Speaker 2: society where and this is why some of my work

1202
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:29,520
Speaker 2: around sporting clubs I really enjoy is because we have

1203
01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:31,840
Speaker 2: to go where people are this idea that we're just

1204
01:00:31,880 --> 01:00:33,960
Speaker 2: going to get people to change their behavior in an

1205
01:00:33,960 --> 01:00:37,800
Speaker 2: echo chamber at a conference or an echo chamber of

1206
01:00:38,400 --> 01:00:42,680
Speaker 2: online chatter. That's really important, don't get me wrong, And

1207
01:00:42,720 --> 01:00:45,919
Speaker 2: I participate in it actively because that's where I learn things,

1208
01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:48,040
Speaker 2: you know, it's where you learn the statistics, that's where

1209
01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:51,120
Speaker 2: you learn what's going on. But you can't change hearts

1210
01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:55,680
Speaker 2: and minds and behavior and actions or the future just

1211
01:00:55,800 --> 01:00:59,640
Speaker 2: in one room at a summer. It has to infiltrate

1212
01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:01,760
Speaker 2: into the outside world. And that's where like these settings

1213
01:01:01,760 --> 01:01:05,720
Speaker 2: are so important. Sport cosmetics retail everywhere you know that

1214
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:09,439
Speaker 2: people that people across Australia go, And it just made

1215
01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:11,360
Speaker 2: sense to do it at a university as well, because

1216
01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:13,360
Speaker 2: people are concarding to come of age, they're strying to

1217
01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:16,520
Speaker 2: figure out have those early interactions and if we embedded

1218
01:01:16,600 --> 01:01:19,400
Speaker 2: at that point, you know, and if the scope to

1219
01:01:19,400 --> 01:01:21,080
Speaker 2: do it in high schools in the future, it's just

1220
01:01:21,160 --> 01:01:24,480
Speaker 2: such important, crucial work and I think there's a real

1221
01:01:24,520 --> 01:01:28,320
Speaker 2: opportunity there and I'm really grateful that Loreal are a

1222
01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:30,200
Speaker 2: brand that wanted to back it, because a lot of

1223
01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:32,480
Speaker 2: there are a lot of brands that have the ability

1224
01:01:32,520 --> 01:01:34,600
Speaker 2: to do something like that, but many of them are

1225
01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:36,280
Speaker 2: too scared. And I think it's part of what you

1226
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:39,400
Speaker 2: said before, cancel culture, fear of doing something wrong, right,

1227
01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:43,000
Speaker 2: But you know, there's that saying like the worst course

1228
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:45,320
Speaker 2: of action is in action, and that's where we are

1229
01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:49,480
Speaker 2: with three harassment, that doing nothing is worse than trying

1230
01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:51,680
Speaker 2: to do the right thing to safely intervene. And so

1231
01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:54,480
Speaker 2: this is such an easy thing to do. And I'd

1232
01:01:54,520 --> 01:01:57,760
Speaker 2: love for all of your listeners, Sarah, to jump online

1233
01:01:57,960 --> 01:02:00,200
Speaker 2: at the Loreal stand Up website and if you if

1234
01:02:00,200 --> 01:02:03,200
Speaker 2: you can pop the links in the show notes, like

1235
01:02:03,280 --> 01:02:05,840
Speaker 2: get people doing that training online, because I know how

1236
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:08,880
Speaker 2: much you care about this issue as well, and we

1237
01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:11,640
Speaker 2: want a safer future. Like I just think of all

1238
01:02:11,680 --> 01:02:15,840
Speaker 2: the women I know who are you know, our age

1239
01:02:16,160 --> 01:02:18,840
Speaker 2: you included, who have had awful experiences either in their

1240
01:02:18,840 --> 01:02:21,640
Speaker 2: present or their past, you know, and definitely in their past.

1241
01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:25,200
Speaker 2: Who I don't want that to happen to young girls

1242
01:02:25,200 --> 01:02:26,800
Speaker 2: and young women now. I don't want them to go

1243
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:30,479
Speaker 2: through the same shit. As well as that, I don't

1244
01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:34,040
Speaker 2: want young men in particular to think that's the only

1245
01:02:34,120 --> 01:02:37,640
Speaker 2: model available to them, Like I really want young men

1246
01:02:37,680 --> 01:02:41,560
Speaker 2: to think, hey, there are other ways to assert my masculinity,

1247
01:02:41,600 --> 01:02:43,560
Speaker 2: to show that I am a man in this world

1248
01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:46,680
Speaker 2: where it's complicated and tricky and who knows what being

1249
01:02:46,720 --> 01:02:48,520
Speaker 2: a real man is anymore? And I want to be

1250
01:02:48,560 --> 01:02:51,440
Speaker 2: able to feel a sense of my masculine identity in

1251
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:54,600
Speaker 2: a way that doesn't diminish the experience of other people.

1252
01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:56,920
Speaker 2: And I'm very much a work in progress in that,

1253
01:02:57,160 --> 01:02:59,640
Speaker 2: so I don't come to anyone from a position of

1254
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:01,800
Speaker 2: being like I know everything. It's more like, hey, let's

1255
01:03:01,800 --> 01:03:03,920
Speaker 2: all learn together on the journey. And I think lorel

1256
01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:08,240
Speaker 2: supporting this program we Plan International Australia and the stand

1257
01:03:08,320 --> 01:03:11,000
Speaker 2: Up against three harassment training is such a crucial part

1258
01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:11,480
Speaker 2: of all of that.

1259
01:03:12,320 --> 01:03:14,640
Speaker 1: I think they really are one of those brands that

1260
01:03:14,720 --> 01:03:17,760
Speaker 1: you know, they're at their core it's a product business

1261
01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:20,360
Speaker 1: that does incredible things with the product speaker to themselves,

1262
01:03:20,360 --> 01:03:23,800
Speaker 1: but they are consistently doing campaigns like this that are

1263
01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:26,760
Speaker 1: well outside the necessary scope before they do. But you know,

1264
01:03:27,520 --> 01:03:30,080
Speaker 1: I've had the joy as well and privilege of being

1265
01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:32,600
Speaker 1: associated with like the for Women in Science campaign that's

1266
01:03:32,600 --> 01:03:36,720
Speaker 1: giving scholarships to female scientists that it's the only scholarship

1267
01:03:36,760 --> 01:03:39,720
Speaker 1: in the world that they're allowed to use on childcare,

1268
01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:42,760
Speaker 1: which is a huge barrier to like females empowerment in science.

1269
01:03:42,800 --> 01:03:46,480
Speaker 1: Like they're covering so many areas that are not just

1270
01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:49,280
Speaker 1: you know, it's I think the phrase they're using is

1271
01:03:49,480 --> 01:03:51,560
Speaker 1: beauty that moves the world, which is, yeah, there's beauty

1272
01:03:51,560 --> 01:03:54,440
Speaker 1: as like this entry level to the company, but they

1273
01:03:54,560 --> 01:03:58,360
Speaker 1: use that massive global impact for other causes. That's what

1274
01:03:58,440 --> 01:04:01,200
Speaker 1: makes me really excited to be an ambassador when you

1275
01:04:01,200 --> 01:04:02,280
Speaker 1: get to do stuff like that.

1276
01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:05,400
Speaker 2: I love that there's there's something from that right around

1277
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:09,080
Speaker 2: beauty that moves the world. I love that it's permission

1278
01:04:09,600 --> 01:04:12,960
Speaker 2: to like and do and care about certain things, you know,

1279
01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:15,720
Speaker 2: these things that are considered frivolous, like beauty and fashion

1280
01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:20,640
Speaker 2: and aesthetic, you know values. Sometimes people can look at

1281
01:04:20,680 --> 01:04:22,160
Speaker 2: that and go, oh, but they're just x y Z.

1282
01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:24,720
Speaker 2: It's just fashion or it's just this, but that's an

1283
01:04:24,720 --> 01:04:26,840
Speaker 2: important part of our identities and our sense of belonging

1284
01:04:26,880 --> 01:04:28,360
Speaker 2: and often community, right.

1285
01:04:28,240 --> 01:04:30,000
Speaker 1: And confidence which is a huge thing.

1286
01:04:30,080 --> 01:04:32,479
Speaker 2: And confidence. Yeah, for years I used to like post

1287
01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:36,560
Speaker 2: on a men's where like style website right like and

1288
01:04:36,720 --> 01:04:38,000
Speaker 2: a developed sense of community.

1289
01:04:38,080 --> 01:04:39,000
Speaker 1: I found those pictures.

1290
01:04:39,040 --> 01:04:42,960
Speaker 2: Oh well, I didn't post many pictures, so but I

1291
01:04:43,120 --> 01:04:44,600
Speaker 2: know I've got like one of my one of my

1292
01:04:44,600 --> 01:04:47,480
Speaker 2: best friends in Sydney is actually a guy I met

1293
01:04:47,560 --> 01:04:50,360
Speaker 2: through that that community, right, And I think it's so

1294
01:04:50,600 --> 01:04:54,400
Speaker 2: like powerful these spaces and we can kind of create

1295
01:04:54,440 --> 01:04:57,720
Speaker 2: a sense of belonging and change from things that can

1296
01:04:57,760 --> 01:05:00,520
Speaker 2: sometimes feel frivolous. And I will say it's well. One

1297
01:05:00,600 --> 01:05:03,600
Speaker 2: of the other reasons for Laurel is that I absolutely

1298
01:05:04,160 --> 01:05:08,160
Speaker 2: love Ralph Lauren the man. I'm just perennially obsessed with

1299
01:05:08,240 --> 01:05:12,560
Speaker 2: Ralph Lauren and their beauty products are all under the

1300
01:05:12,600 --> 01:05:15,640
Speaker 2: Laureal umbrella. And so when they approached me, I was like, yes,

1301
01:05:15,880 --> 01:05:22,200
Speaker 2: I love Ralph Lauren. Immediately, Yes, immediately, yes, questions later, immediately, yes, yes, right,

1302
01:05:22,480 --> 01:05:24,040
Speaker 2: I agree with what you're saying. I think it's such

1303
01:05:24,040 --> 01:05:26,440
Speaker 2: a pertinent and a student observation by you. Right, Like

1304
01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:29,120
Speaker 2: beauty that moves the world, there's ways to create change

1305
01:05:29,600 --> 01:05:33,400
Speaker 2: that exist within the systems that are around us. Like

1306
01:05:33,480 --> 01:05:35,959
Speaker 2: as much as everything we could just you know, start

1307
01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:38,040
Speaker 2: all over again, Well we can't. It's too late for that.

1308
01:05:38,080 --> 01:05:39,840
Speaker 2: So let's do good with what we have. And I

1309
01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:42,440
Speaker 2: think they're doing that, And my hope is that in

1310
01:05:42,560 --> 01:05:44,720
Speaker 2: coming months and years we can take it and be

1311
01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:48,520
Speaker 2: something that's even bigger and bolder and more ambitious. And

1312
01:05:48,560 --> 01:05:50,720
Speaker 2: there's certainly the appetite for it as well as the

1313
01:05:50,840 --> 01:05:53,320
Speaker 2: need to do it right. There is a real kind

1314
01:05:53,320 --> 01:05:56,840
Speaker 2: of need in Australia for this, when seventy eight percent

1315
01:05:56,880 --> 01:06:00,440
Speaker 2: of women experienced tree harassment, and the other part of

1316
01:06:00,440 --> 01:06:03,880
Speaker 2: that is seventy a percent of women are experiencing it,

1317
01:06:04,200 --> 01:06:06,520
Speaker 2: what percentage of other people are perpetrating it? And how

1318
01:06:06,600 --> 01:06:07,880
Speaker 2: do we support them so they.

1319
01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:10,960
Speaker 1: Don't Yes, yes, oh my gosh. Absolutely. And I think

1320
01:06:11,000 --> 01:06:13,720
Speaker 1: this is one of the wonderful things about your platform

1321
01:06:13,880 --> 01:06:15,680
Speaker 1: and the audience that you have now is that you

1322
01:06:15,840 --> 01:06:18,240
Speaker 1: do use it to educate people about stats that would

1323
01:06:18,320 --> 01:06:21,200
Speaker 1: shock most Australians, I think, to even think we come

1324
01:06:21,240 --> 01:06:25,400
Speaker 1: close to that level of statistic. But also you also,

1325
01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:28,000
Speaker 1: as we mentioned, circling right back to the beginning you

1326
01:06:28,080 --> 01:06:30,640
Speaker 1: got range. You also taught most of us that it's

1327
01:06:30,720 --> 01:06:32,640
Speaker 1: Ralph Lauren, not Ralph LAURENZ.

1328
01:06:32,920 --> 01:06:33,760
Speaker 2: Did you not know that?

1329
01:06:34,080 --> 01:06:37,200
Speaker 1: I knew. I only knew because of working with Loril.

1330
01:06:37,240 --> 01:06:38,560
Speaker 1: But when I saw it, I was like, that's going

1331
01:06:38,600 --> 01:06:40,680
Speaker 1: to break the internet. It's going to break the internet.

1332
01:06:40,920 --> 01:06:44,880
Speaker 2: If you take anything from this, it's that I think

1333
01:06:44,920 --> 01:06:51,800
Speaker 2: I'm obligated out of tractually. No, I don't, actually so

1334
01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:54,480
Speaker 2: those degrees on the wall are real. I don't think

1335
01:06:54,480 --> 01:06:56,840
Speaker 2: I'm contractually obligated to say this. I just say it

1336
01:06:56,840 --> 01:06:59,440
Speaker 2: because I feel such a deep connection do the training.

1337
01:06:59,520 --> 01:07:02,320
Speaker 2: That's what that's the first week. But I will say

1338
01:07:02,920 --> 01:07:06,000
Speaker 2: Ralph Lauren, it is Ralph Lauren. It is not Ralph Lauren,

1339
01:07:06,400 --> 01:07:10,640
Speaker 2: and it is because that's not his real name. Ralph

1340
01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:14,400
Speaker 2: Lauren's real name is Ralph Liftschitz, and he's stop it.

1341
01:07:14,520 --> 01:07:15,320
Speaker 1: I did not know that.

1342
01:07:15,720 --> 01:07:17,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's his real name. His real name is Ralph

1343
01:07:17,760 --> 01:07:21,160
Speaker 2: Liftschitz and he was born in the Bronx in New

1344
01:07:21,240 --> 01:07:22,600
Speaker 2: York in the nineteen thirties.

1345
01:07:22,800 --> 01:07:24,440
Speaker 1: That's right. I did know that there was like a

1346
01:07:24,480 --> 01:07:25,560
Speaker 1: woman's name Lauren.

1347
01:07:25,760 --> 01:07:29,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, and his and his brother his parents were Jewish

1348
01:07:29,520 --> 01:07:33,080
Speaker 2: migrants to the United States, and his brother said that

1349
01:07:33,400 --> 01:07:37,080
Speaker 2: they received so much discrimination for his name that one

1350
01:07:37,160 --> 01:07:40,360
Speaker 2: day he said, hey, I want to change my name

1351
01:07:40,800 --> 01:07:42,960
Speaker 2: to his two brother he has two brothers, and he's like,

1352
01:07:43,520 --> 01:07:46,840
Speaker 2: do you want to also change your name? And Ralph was,

1353
01:07:47,040 --> 01:07:50,360
Speaker 2: I think hesitant at first, and then went, nah, I'll

1354
01:07:50,360 --> 01:07:53,240
Speaker 2: go with you. We'll all just adopt Ralph Lauren. And

1355
01:07:53,280 --> 01:07:56,400
Speaker 2: that's where that's where it started, right, they changed their name.

1356
01:07:56,400 --> 01:07:58,800
Speaker 2: And so he's said on record, like when people asked

1357
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:00,280
Speaker 2: how do you pronounce it, he says, like the.

1358
01:08:00,240 --> 01:08:02,040
Speaker 1: Girl's first name, yeah, Lauren.

1359
01:08:02,360 --> 01:08:05,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, so and they did sound more American. What I love, right,

1360
01:08:05,880 --> 01:08:08,600
Speaker 2: is that he because I love that he took the idea, right,

1361
01:08:08,920 --> 01:08:12,200
Speaker 2: he's a Jewish migrant, and yet people assume that like

1362
01:08:12,240 --> 01:08:16,520
Speaker 2: he's got this like old world country club kind of ancestry.

1363
01:08:16,600 --> 01:08:18,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, no migrant.

1364
01:08:18,360 --> 01:08:21,160
Speaker 2: Nah. He came from a very modest, working class family

1365
01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:24,120
Speaker 2: who had this amazing work ethic and this sense of

1366
01:08:24,240 --> 01:08:28,719
Speaker 2: like beauty. And there's a documentary about his life called

1367
01:08:28,840 --> 01:08:32,800
Speaker 2: Very Ralph, and it's fantastic because it goes to him

1368
01:08:32,800 --> 01:08:35,479
Speaker 2: talking about and one of the things he said, and

1369
01:08:36,960 --> 01:08:39,360
Speaker 2: this is what I loved, right, is that he goes

1370
01:08:39,400 --> 01:08:43,000
Speaker 2: people look at our clothes and they know immediately that

1371
01:08:43,080 --> 01:08:47,320
Speaker 2: it's Ralph Lauren. But it's not the same every year.

1372
01:08:47,520 --> 01:08:50,400
Speaker 2: So it's finding the way to stay on brand and

1373
01:08:50,439 --> 01:08:56,120
Speaker 2: on theme, but do something new every year, right, And

1374
01:08:56,160 --> 01:08:58,680
Speaker 2: I was like, that is a challenge, right, because you've

1375
01:08:58,680 --> 01:09:01,439
Speaker 2: got to stay within a parameter. And so sort of

1376
01:09:01,479 --> 01:09:05,000
Speaker 2: like the the mass respect that he's cultivated with different

1377
01:09:05,040 --> 01:09:07,880
Speaker 2: people from different backgrounds, you know, like hip hop artists

1378
01:09:07,920 --> 01:09:10,360
Speaker 2: loving his stuff as well as like the well to

1379
01:09:10,400 --> 01:09:13,040
Speaker 2: do of English aristocracy, Like he's sort of you know,

1380
01:09:13,120 --> 01:09:15,160
Speaker 2: you talk about Range, Ralf Florence.

1381
01:09:15,880 --> 01:09:17,720
Speaker 1: He got Range, and Rolf Laurence.

1382
01:09:17,400 --> 01:09:21,040
Speaker 2: Got brands as well. Right, I'm getting way off topic.

1383
01:09:21,080 --> 01:09:25,240
Speaker 2: Here is me talking about my lover. I love it

1384
01:09:26,080 --> 01:09:28,559
Speaker 2: me plugging stuff. So eventually Ralphlallen will send me like

1385
01:09:28,640 --> 01:09:29,080
Speaker 2: one thing.

1386
01:09:30,360 --> 01:09:32,040
Speaker 1: I'm going to make sure this gets in his ears,

1387
01:09:32,080 --> 01:09:33,600
Speaker 1: just for your future career trajectory.

1388
01:09:35,200 --> 01:09:38,920
Speaker 2: I just I admire him so much and particularly you know,

1389
01:09:39,000 --> 01:09:43,560
Speaker 2: if you think about brands like Ralph Lauren is a

1390
01:09:43,560 --> 01:09:46,200
Speaker 2: brand making a statement around the Black Lives Matter movement.

1391
01:09:46,280 --> 01:09:48,200
Speaker 2: A lot of brands didn't know what to do, and

1392
01:09:48,280 --> 01:09:51,120
Speaker 2: Ralph Lauren was like, hey, this is a basic, fundamental

1393
01:09:51,160 --> 01:09:53,800
Speaker 2: human rights issue. We're going all out and we're going

1394
01:09:53,880 --> 01:09:57,400
Speaker 2: to back it and give money and donate. And I'm like, wow,

1395
01:09:57,520 --> 01:10:01,600
Speaker 2: that's cool, Like and it's amazing how and other organizations

1396
01:10:01,680 --> 01:10:04,919
Speaker 2: struggle with knowing whether to do this, and to their credit, Laureal,

1397
01:10:05,120 --> 01:10:09,200
Speaker 2: we're like, this is a contenous issue, but this is affecting,

1398
01:10:09,680 --> 01:10:13,320
Speaker 2: you know, seventy percent of our market. Right, let's minimum,

1399
01:10:13,360 --> 01:10:15,400
Speaker 2: let's talk about it. Let's go out there and actually

1400
01:10:15,400 --> 01:10:18,280
Speaker 2: be proactive. And I love that. I love when anyone

1401
01:10:18,400 --> 01:10:21,320
Speaker 2: is just like willing to go and put themselves out there,

1402
01:10:21,320 --> 01:10:23,920
Speaker 2: and for me, like, that's how my advocacy journey started, right.

1403
01:10:24,040 --> 01:10:27,320
Speaker 2: No one knew who I was in that way, but

1404
01:10:27,439 --> 01:10:29,960
Speaker 2: my sister was murdered and I was like, damn, we're

1405
01:10:29,960 --> 01:10:31,560
Speaker 2: going to say something about it and I'm going to

1406
01:10:31,600 --> 01:10:34,040
Speaker 2: make something from it. So I think Loriola doing some

1407
01:10:34,120 --> 01:10:36,120
Speaker 2: amazing work and it's great to be partnered with them,

1408
01:10:36,160 --> 01:10:39,479
Speaker 2: and it's great that you're involved across the brand, across everything.

1409
01:10:40,200 --> 01:10:42,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, they really are such a wonderful brand. It is

1410
01:10:42,120 --> 01:10:45,719
Speaker 1: such a privilege, especially to be yeah, alongside people like you.

1411
01:10:45,960 --> 01:10:48,360
Speaker 2: If we can, sereh get you on one of our

1412
01:10:48,400 --> 01:10:51,400
Speaker 2: panels in the future, I love that it.

1413
01:10:51,360 --> 01:10:54,439
Speaker 1: Would be a privilege. Well, Tarung, I've literally covered maybe

1414
01:10:54,439 --> 01:10:55,760
Speaker 1: two percent of what I wanted to talk to you

1415
01:10:55,760 --> 01:10:59,120
Speaker 1: about today, because there's just so much. There's just so

1416
01:10:59,200 --> 01:11:02,320
Speaker 1: much we could talk about. You have such an incredible story.

1417
01:11:02,520 --> 01:11:05,000
Speaker 1: You are so eloquent and articulate in the things that

1418
01:11:05,040 --> 01:11:07,600
Speaker 1: you advocate for. We are so very lucky to have

1419
01:11:07,640 --> 01:11:10,559
Speaker 1: a voice like yours amplifying things that are really really

1420
01:11:10,560 --> 01:11:13,839
Speaker 1: important that that don't honestly still probably don't get enough airtime.

1421
01:11:13,880 --> 01:11:16,040
Speaker 1: But you are doing a huge amount to change that

1422
01:11:16,120 --> 01:11:18,040
Speaker 1: and educate us all in ways that I think we

1423
01:11:18,120 --> 01:11:21,600
Speaker 1: all can learn and progress together. So I'm so grateful

1424
01:11:21,760 --> 01:11:24,080
Speaker 1: for you for your time, how patient you were in

1425
01:11:24,120 --> 01:11:26,800
Speaker 1: making this happen. And we've got to do this again

1426
01:11:26,840 --> 01:11:29,080
Speaker 1: because again, like I feel like I covered like chapter

1427
01:11:29,160 --> 01:11:31,639
Speaker 1: one of one hundred, we should do like a full series,

1428
01:11:31,720 --> 01:11:33,960
Speaker 1: just like Turung chapter one to Urung chapter two.

1429
01:11:34,120 --> 01:11:36,800
Speaker 2: I would be honestly, you just let me know when

1430
01:11:36,960 --> 01:11:40,679
Speaker 2: i'd be honored and thrilled. It's been a real joy.

1431
01:11:41,320 --> 01:11:43,880
Speaker 2: And as I said that, I was like, oh, it's

1432
01:11:44,960 --> 01:11:46,920
Speaker 2: actually been a real joy. It's been a treat and

1433
01:11:47,320 --> 01:11:50,160
Speaker 2: definitely the highlight of my day today. And for any

1434
01:11:50,160 --> 01:11:52,160
Speaker 2: of your listeners that are stuck around this long, thank

1435
01:11:52,200 --> 01:11:56,360
Speaker 2: you for letting me go along your walk or whatever

1436
01:11:56,360 --> 01:11:58,960
Speaker 2: you're doing, you're tripping the car wherever you listen to

1437
01:11:58,960 --> 01:12:02,360
Speaker 2: this podcast, because I'm just really grateful right that people

1438
01:12:02,439 --> 01:12:05,080
Speaker 2: actually care enough to listen to things that I have

1439
01:12:05,080 --> 01:12:07,479
Speaker 2: to say, because there's enough amazing content out there these

1440
01:12:07,560 --> 01:12:11,160
Speaker 2: days that you could easily just avoid mine. So thank

1441
01:12:11,200 --> 01:12:13,200
Speaker 2: you so so much, Sarah, and thank you to everyone

1442
01:12:13,240 --> 01:12:14,960
Speaker 2: for listening. I really appreciate it.

1443
01:12:15,240 --> 01:12:17,800
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you have an amazing weekend, and I'll pop

1444
01:12:17,840 --> 01:12:20,040
Speaker 1: the links in the show notes to the campaign and

1445
01:12:20,080 --> 01:12:21,920
Speaker 1: all your platforms so people know where to find you.

1446
01:12:22,080 --> 01:12:23,920
Speaker 2: Amazing Thanks Sarah.

1447
01:12:23,520 --> 01:12:26,360
Speaker 1: So parts two, three, and beyond of this chat are

1448
01:12:26,400 --> 01:12:28,559
Speaker 1: sure to come in the future. I really finish this

1449
01:12:28,600 --> 01:12:30,920
Speaker 1: one feeling like I barely asked anything on my list

1450
01:12:30,960 --> 01:12:34,040
Speaker 1: because there was just so much to cover. Teung is

1451
01:12:34,080 --> 01:12:37,280
Speaker 1: so generous in his vulnerability and openness, and if you

1452
01:12:37,439 --> 01:12:40,960
Speaker 1: enjoyed listening along, please share the episode and shower him

1453
01:12:40,960 --> 01:12:45,080
Speaker 1: with the neighborhood appreciation tagging at Tung Choula to help

1454
01:12:45,200 --> 01:12:48,400
Speaker 1: keep spreading his amazing work. I'll include links in the

1455
01:12:48,400 --> 01:12:50,519
Speaker 1: show notes as I mentioned, to some mental health and

1456
01:12:50,560 --> 01:12:53,240
Speaker 1: other important resources should any of you feel the need

1457
01:12:53,280 --> 01:12:56,240
Speaker 1: to reach out at any time. Never hesitate. It is

1458
01:12:56,280 --> 01:13:00,000
Speaker 1: a strength, not a weakness. Look after yourselves and each other,

1459
01:13:00,200 --> 01:13:02,160
Speaker 1: and we will be back next week with more yeays

1460
01:13:02,200 --> 01:13:05,240
Speaker 1: of our lives with ache, and until then, I hope

1461
01:13:05,240 --> 01:13:10,920
Speaker 1: you are seizing your ya