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Speaker 1: This episode is brought to you by PayPal Small Business

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Speaker 1: boot Camp series.

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Speaker 2: Part of gratitude is accepting what you've got, and another

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Speaker 2: part is that concept of micro goals and being able

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Speaker 2: to put markers of what you've achieved and to be

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Speaker 2: thankful and to acknowledge pat yourself on the back. When

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Speaker 2: you look at things like traumatic experiences and stress alls,

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Speaker 2: it's relative to the individual. You can't compare your trauma

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Speaker 2: to someone else's. It just doesn't work that way. It's

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Speaker 2: what you're resilient against.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Sees the Yay Podcast. Busy and happy

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Speaker 1: are not the same thing. We too rarely question what

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Speaker 1: makes the heart seeing. We work, then we rest, but

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Speaker 1: rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than

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Speaker 1: one way. So this is a platform to hear and

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Speaker 1: explore the stories of those.

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Speaker 3: Who found lives. They adore the good, bad and ugly.

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Speaker 1: The best and worst days will bear all the facets

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Speaker 1: of seizing your yay. I'm Sarah Davidson or a spoonful

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Speaker 1: of Sarah, a lawyer turned entrepreneur who's what the suits

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Speaker 1: heels to co found matcha Maiden and matcha milkbar. Cz

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Speaker 1: The ya is a series of conversations on finding a

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Speaker 1: life you love and exploring the self doubt, challenge, joy

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Speaker 1: and fulfillment along the way. Most of you are already

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Speaker 1: aware of my fascination with the military, the origins of

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Speaker 1: which I'm still not really sure about, but which I've

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Speaker 1: pretty much stopped questioning now because we also all know

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Speaker 1: that weird things will make you ya, so just roll

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Speaker 1: with them, because you're already far better off than those

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Speaker 1: who haven't found their ya yet, so you won't be

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Speaker 1: surprised how much I enjoyed this week's two episodes, but

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Speaker 1: I promise the military connection was just a timing coincidence.

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Speaker 3: If you haven't.

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Speaker 1: Listened yet, our Yas of Our Lives guest for this

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Speaker 1: week was Tom Howell, Director of Field Operations for Disaster

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Speaker 1: Relief Australia, a partner of our partner Mitsubishi, so basically

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Speaker 1: part of the neighborhood. Tom started out as an Army

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Speaker 1: combat paramedic doing some fascinating work in Afghanistan, then later

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Speaker 1: worked in the jungles of Papua New Guinea learning all

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Speaker 1: about jungle medicine, before becoming a full time firefighter, which

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Speaker 1: he does alongside his work with dra Today we're joined

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Speaker 1: by two fellow veterans and legendary brothers, Dan and Ben Pronk, who,

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Speaker 1: along with their close friend Tim Curtis, just published and

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Speaker 1: already sold out mind you, their first brilliant book, The

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Speaker 1: Resilience Shield.

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Speaker 3: All three were.

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Speaker 1: Elite soldiers in the SAS, which is already impressive enough.

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Speaker 1: But later I went on to complete their MBAs, launching

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Speaker 1: successful post military careers, and the brothers now fondly refer

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Speaker 1: to themselves as two thirds of an author. Setting today's warm,

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Speaker 1: self deprecating tone, I already gush about Resilience Shield enough

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Speaker 1: in this episode. I mean, I really do. But whether

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Speaker 1: you're interested in the military or not, it is a

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Speaker 1: transformative handbook for our crazy times that we find ourselves in,

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Speaker 1: aiming to help us build a shield of resilience against

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Speaker 1: the undeniable, uncertainty, and sometimes unfairness of the world. Hi

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Speaker 1: Adrenaline military anecdotes are weaved seamlessly in among dense philosophy,

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Speaker 1: science and research from around the world around timely themes

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Speaker 1: like fulfillment, loss and then rebuilding of identity, trauma, modern

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Speaker 1: information overload, and goal setting no size twelve fonts. Storytelling

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Speaker 1: here Resilient Shield is packed full of a methodology built

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Speaker 1: over three stellar careers to date, but with endearing or

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Speaker 1: latable language like one of my favorite chapters. But what

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Speaker 1: about my dickhead boss? I'm pretty much just rehashing what

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Speaker 1: we talk about now, so I'll let the boys tell

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Speaker 1: you more themselves. But I truly truly enjoyed this one

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Speaker 1: so much, and I hope you guys do too. Pronk boys,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 4: Thank you, sir, Get you, Sarah. It's great to be here.

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Speaker 3: I am so excited.

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Speaker 1: I was listening to you guys on with your third

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Speaker 1: co author on the Unforgiving sixty podcast the other day,

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Speaker 1: referring to yourselves, there's all collectively one third of an author,

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Speaker 1: like you together make an order, So I have two

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Speaker 1: thirds of an author here today.

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Speaker 3: I'm very excited.

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Speaker 5: You've almost got a complete real.

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Speaker 1: Author, almost one complete real author. Congratulations on your incredible

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Speaker 1: new book, The Resilient Shield, which I have just found

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Speaker 1: out has sold out nationally, so I can't even believe

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Speaker 1: how lucky I was to.

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Speaker 3: Get a copy of this.

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Speaker 5: Thank you.

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Speaker 3: How are you feeling stoked?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, the response has been a bit overwhelming. We didn't

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Speaker 2: know what to expect when we threw it out there.

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Speaker 2: Of course, we hoped for the best, and it's sort

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Speaker 2: of met all those expectations and more.

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Speaker 1: Well, Oh my gosh, you guys have done an incredible job.

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Speaker 1: I was just absolutely gushing before we started recording about

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Speaker 1: I mean, everyone who listens to the show knows that

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Speaker 1: I'm incredibly joy focused in positivity, But for some reason,

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Speaker 1: war and the military is like a random obsession of mine.

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Speaker 3: So I soaked up.

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Speaker 1: All the anecdotes and all the stories, but also found

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Speaker 1: it so impressive how you've distilled military concepts and stories

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Speaker 1: and made them translatable to people's everyday lives at a

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Speaker 1: time where I think resilience is something we need more

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Speaker 1: than we ever had. People are facing loss of purpose

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Speaker 1: like you guys facing the end of your military careers

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Speaker 1: and finding your why again. People are facing that more

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Speaker 1: now than they ever had. And something you said about

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Speaker 1: the resilience requirements of elite soldiers, solicitors, and students differ

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Speaker 1: by degree and not kind. So while we would I

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Speaker 1: definitely put you on a pedestal for all the incredible

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Speaker 1: things that you've done, and also all of you are

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Speaker 1: ex special force of soldiers who all have MBAs too,

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Speaker 1: Like what is even I don't even know how to

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Speaker 1: compute that, But you've done an incredible job of making

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Speaker 1: it really practical and very very timely. So it's an

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Speaker 1: honor to have you on.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, And it is funny. I mean again, we

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Speaker 2: were talking just before we came on. It is awesome

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Speaker 2: to hear those reflections, and we thank you for them.

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Speaker 2: But it is funny that that whole idea of people

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Speaker 2: being vastly different because of what they do. Dan's first

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Speaker 2: book was called The Average seventy kilo Dickhead, and I

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Speaker 2: think I'm a little bit more than seventy kilos now,

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Speaker 2: but I think all of us do view ourselves as

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Speaker 2: average people who have had this amazing opportunity to do

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Speaker 2: something cool. But it doesn't mean that we you know,

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Speaker 2: resilience needs are going to be a different kind, as

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Speaker 2: you mentioned before. So we were fascinated about learning for

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Speaker 2: ourselves how this whole thing about resilience worked, how we

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Speaker 2: could get better at it, and we're stoked that it

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Speaker 2: has proved to be relatively universal. We're getting great feedback

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Speaker 2: from a lot of different recorders on the techniques we

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Speaker 2: talk about, and.

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Speaker 1: I think that's why the cutthrough is so potent is

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Speaker 1: because you are also very down to earth, Like, there's

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Speaker 1: a whole chapter about but what about my dickhead boss?

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, wow, there's also some incredible science and

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Speaker 1: very articulate intellectual material, But then this chapters like that

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Speaker 1: that just gets everyone on your level. You know, everyone

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Speaker 1: has had a dickhead boss in their time and knows

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Speaker 1: they need resilience against that, which is why I start

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Speaker 1: every episode with a little icebreaker by asking everyone what

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Speaker 1: the most down to worth thing is about them to

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Speaker 1: kind of break through that glossy surface you often, you know,

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Speaker 1: our identities has perceived through the media or through social media.

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Speaker 3: And you guys are authors. Now, as I.

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Speaker 1: Mentioned, you have incredible military careers behind you, at host

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Speaker 1: of amazing achievements.

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Speaker 3: You all have MBAs. I mean, it's just outrageous.

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Speaker 1: What are some really normal things about you other than

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Speaker 1: your vintage Lamborghini, Dan, because that is not the kind

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Speaker 1: of material we're.

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Speaker 3: Looking for in this section. What are some really relatable

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Speaker 3: things about you guys?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think for both of us, we're both dads,

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Speaker 2: So I've got three young kids, three young boys. So

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Speaker 2: at the end of the day. My day to day

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Speaker 2: life is that of raising young family, just me and

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Speaker 2: my wife trying to do the best we can to

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Speaker 2: raise the kids. And we have the exact same sort

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Speaker 2: of stress alls in that realm as anyone else, which

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Speaker 2: is a great opportunity to flex some of the resilient

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Speaker 2: shield type stuff.

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Speaker 4: But it's all it's all.

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Speaker 2: Get up, get the kids ready for school, getting them

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Speaker 2: off to school, and do our thing. And you know,

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Speaker 2: there's we've got our day jobs as well, and these

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Speaker 2: these sort of things are just side projects. And like

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Speaker 2: you say, it looks exciting, and social media is a

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Speaker 2: is a great forum to put forward this idealistic but

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Speaker 2: at the end of the day, where we've got normal

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Speaker 2: day to day lives and then we've had this great

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Speaker 2: opportunity to engage in this space and put this book

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Speaker 2: out into the market. I think for me, Sarah, I'm

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Speaker 2: actually a shamble. It's like, it's funny when people have

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Speaker 2: this perception of this. You know, I don't know whatever

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Speaker 2: you see in the movies the Elite Soldier.

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Speaker 5: And the one that I always love.

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Speaker 2: Apparently I'm quite noisy if I come home when my

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Speaker 2: wife's asleep. I've been out or whatever, you know, I

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Speaker 2: get sort of bang into every surface in the house.

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Speaker 2: And so this idea of this sort of stealthy soul

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Speaker 2: just sneaking in and being totally squared.

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Speaker 5: Away, and my real is very much in a bit

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Speaker 5: of a clots.

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Speaker 2: So I do laugh when I think about what people

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Speaker 2: might perceive and essays to be like in terms of that,

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Speaker 2: I'm kind of the opposite.

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Speaker 1: Well. I love that one of your very first academic

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Speaker 1: references in the book, where you like put a little

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Speaker 1: reference note and then there's a note at the bottom

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Speaker 1: of the page, was about how people do have this

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Speaker 1: big perception. I think it was a guy called Wade

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Speaker 1: maybe as being these like staunch, like tall built dudes

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Speaker 1: who are always in uniform with like vests and shit

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Speaker 1: all over them, and you guys are like, we're slightly

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Speaker 1: shorter and a little bit rounder than you.

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Speaker 3: Might expect, which I do not believe.

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Speaker 1: I was disappointed that you didn't wear your uniforms today though,

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Speaker 1: even though you're retired.

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Speaker 3: I was like, come on, guys, I mean, you know

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Speaker 3: we're videoing here.

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Speaker 2: Actually I'm surprised Dan's not in his back shed, which

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Speaker 2: is that you know, it's got a better collection.

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Speaker 5: Than the War Memorial in terms of soon so stuff

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Speaker 5: from war zones that could have ticked that box.

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Speaker 4: Well.

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Speaker 1: I also have to say, for people who have been

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Speaker 1: listening to the podcast for a while, they'll remember Mark

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Speaker 1: Wales and you know how much I just adore him

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Speaker 1: as a person and his story. But I have told

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Speaker 1: a story quite a few times about the military precision

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Speaker 1: that comes back even after you've transitioned back into your

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Speaker 1: civvy life. How we were at Sam and Mark's wedding

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Speaker 1: and you two were probably part of this story. I've

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Speaker 1: just connected and it started raining. The wedding was outside

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Speaker 1: and we needed to move all the furniture inside really quickly.

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Speaker 1: And all of us were.

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Speaker 3: Like, oh it's raining quick and like faffing.

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Speaker 1: About like headless chalks, like how do we get all

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Speaker 1: the stuff inside? And the military guys just all you

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Speaker 1: could see. You all just go into like this precision focus,

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Speaker 1: not no words. You all just made eye contact and

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Speaker 1: like forty seconds later everything was inside. I was like, what,

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Speaker 1: we're at a military wedding.

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Speaker 5: That was pretty cool. It was very much a whole m. Guys,

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Speaker 5: were you in that story? Oh my god, that was

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Speaker 5: a very cool evening.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I did like that part and I loved I mean, Markent,

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Speaker 2: what amazing people and what an amazing group of people

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Speaker 2: at that wedding.

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Speaker 5: But it made it better. You know, you think there'd be.

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Speaker 2: Some circumstances, whether the rain for the outdoor reception would

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Speaker 2: be just the deal breaker, but it just I think

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Speaker 2: the kind of I guess the things you epitomize in

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Speaker 2: C's THEA. I mean, people just enjoyed that we had

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Speaker 2: a cooler knough because of that, we were able to

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Speaker 2: really see the benefits and how I really enjoyed that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, guys, we embraced the suck. Really is what we did.

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Speaker 1: I am now adopting resilient shield language in all of

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Speaker 1: my life. I'm just announcing for you awesome. So that

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Speaker 1: leads to the first section, which is your way to

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Speaker 1: A and how you got to where you guys are,

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Speaker 1: And I mean people can read about your stories in

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Speaker 1: the book and I loved reading those anecdotes all the

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Speaker 1: way back from childhood. But just to set the scene

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Speaker 1: before we jump into the book itself and the concept

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Speaker 1: of the resilient shield, because again, like I said, I

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Speaker 1: think it's so timely for what we're going through right now,

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Speaker 1: I think it's really important to go through all the

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Speaker 1: chapters that you went through before that formed to who

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Speaker 1: you are and the views that you translate into the book,

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Speaker 1: right back from childhood and how you even decided you

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Speaker 1: wanted to enter the military, and then how you transitioned

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Speaker 1: out of it and found who you wanted to be

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Speaker 1: after that. So, as you say in the book, you

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Speaker 1: can't grab the fruit without the climb.

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Speaker 3: There is no linear pathway in life whatsoever.

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Speaker 1: So take us through all those little chapters along the

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Speaker 1: way so we can get some context before we jump

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Speaker 1: into the book.

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Speaker 2: I was on the planet first, so I'll go first.

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Speaker 2: Dan and I were army brats, So our dad was

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Speaker 2: in hindsight well at the time as well an amazing human.

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Speaker 2: He was a really kick ustad. He was an army

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Speaker 2: helicopter pilot and very much instilled in both of us

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Speaker 2: this view that you could achieve anything, and not in.

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Speaker 5: A platitudinal sense.

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Speaker 2: It was more like through his example that the dishwasher broke.

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Speaker 2: You know, yes, you could call a person to do that,

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Speaker 2: but if a person can work out how to fix

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Speaker 2: a dishwasher, then so could we. And so that kind

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Speaker 2: of attitude led to a ton of stuffed household appliances

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Speaker 2: that you could do things, you know, you could try

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Speaker 2: things and achieve things and work things out.

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Speaker 5: And so that was when we look back, when.

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Speaker 2: We both looked back, that was so fundamental to I

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Speaker 2: get anything that we've achieved in our own lives. My

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Speaker 2: story is much more boring than Dan in terms of

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Speaker 2: I was always kind to join the Army. I did

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Speaker 2: school cadads. I'd seen how much Dad loved it. He

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Speaker 2: never pressured us either way. But for me, I was

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Speaker 2: the kid in cams at age thirteen, and I was

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Speaker 2: a fat kid as well, which I sort of look

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Speaker 2: back on. I think that was a great thing. I've

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Speaker 2: still got some kind of weird Freudian psychological issue, and

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Speaker 2: I think that'll keep me skinned for the.

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Speaker 5: Rest of my life.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, that was me, fat killing cans. And I

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Speaker 2: graduated from high school, took a year off because I

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Speaker 2: was a bit young, but then went to the Defense

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Speaker 2: Course Academy, four years there and done troon, graduated to

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Speaker 2: Infantry Corps, and again, with hindsight, you know, we'd been

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Speaker 2: thirty years without a major. The military have been thirty

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Speaker 2: years without a major. Deployment, so there was kind of

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Speaker 2: no expectation that we were going anywhere. Our dad had

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Speaker 2: been in for about that whole period post Vietnam and

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Speaker 2: had never deployed, and so.

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Speaker 5: It was very much this kind of peacetime army, and.

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Speaker 2: None of our instructors had medals or any of that

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Speaker 2: sort of stuff, so we graduated with no real expectation. Interestingly,

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Speaker 2: it rained on my graduation parade at R and C

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Speaker 2: and the urban myth, the old R and C myth,

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Speaker 2: if it rains on your parade, you're going to war.

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Speaker 5: And we sort of all super excited raining and the parade,

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Speaker 5: this must mean something.

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Speaker 2: I was not excited standing in the fucking rain yet

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Speaker 2: another one of your parades at the time. But sorry, continued, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I didn't share your enthusiasm. And we'll get to that

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Speaker 2: because because Dan was standing there in badly mustard three

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Speaker 2: quarteral pants and shoulder and here he was like something

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Speaker 2: out of an April lavine.

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Speaker 3: Got a length pants?

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Speaker 2: Wow?

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Speaker 1: What a.

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Let's yeah, Okay, put it in context.

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Speaker 4: I'm still in the charts.

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Speaker 2: If he wasn't in the charts, he's definitely still.

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Speaker 4: Exactly back to me.

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Speaker 2: So it rained on our parade, and yeah, within two

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Speaker 2: years I was in these team or the first push

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Speaker 2: out of second to ten and so that really, in hindsight,

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Speaker 2: kicks off this whole thing. So I came back from that,

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Speaker 2: did essays selection and then essentially spent the rest of

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Speaker 2: my career in special operations and just an amazing sort

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Speaker 2: of journey. Clearly met Mark along the way, people like

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Speaker 2: that of that caliber. It's just such an incredible place

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Speaker 2: to work. But yeah, I was lucky enough to command

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Speaker 2: it sort of everything from five person patrol up to

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Speaker 2: the entire unit.

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Speaker 5: I deployed a number of times to Afghanistan.

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Speaker 2: I've deployed on exchange with the Americans to Iraq, a

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Speaker 2: couple of trips to Team Or. I had a year

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Speaker 2: in the UK on exchange study. Just this incredible series

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Speaker 2: of experiences, some good, some bad, but certainly very fulfilling.

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Speaker 2: At the end of my time as unit commander, I

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Speaker 2: was looking at transition options and so took a year

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Speaker 2: off to do an NBA, decided I wanted to get

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Speaker 2: out of the Army.

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Speaker 5: At that point met.

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Speaker 2: Back up with an old boss of mine, Tim Curtis,

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Speaker 2: who'd been out for ten years, and we had this

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Speaker 2: serendipitous sort of crossing of pat So I think I

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Speaker 2: decided I was getting out of the Army. I thought

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Speaker 2: I was going to go to another big institution, in

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Speaker 2: another big company, and Tim said, why don't we start

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Speaker 2: this thing together, which became Metal our company, and geoon glad.

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Speaker 5: Don't tell him.

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Speaker 2: That, I said, but I'm glad that we met. I'm

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Speaker 2: glad he was that safety net to allow me to

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Speaker 2: try something like that. And I'm so glad we've done

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Speaker 2: what we've done because it's given us these incredible opportunities

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Speaker 2: that I wouldn't have got. And look, I talked a

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Speaker 2: little bit about it in the book, but for me,

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Speaker 2: there was this transition, and when I really looked at it,

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Speaker 2: there was a status based transition that I had to

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Speaker 2: let go of being special or being a lieutenant colonel,

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Speaker 2: or being in the ESAs these kind of things that

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Speaker 2: I don't think consciously I.

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Speaker 5: Was aware of.

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Speaker 2: But that's been a big part of the journey and

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Speaker 2: understanding with resilience. So, yeah, we've done this sort of

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Speaker 2: consultancy for the last four and a big years, and

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Speaker 2: along the way sort of did a lot of work

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Speaker 2: in that leadership and resilience space and the pandemic really

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Speaker 2: gave us not only a chance in terms of a

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Speaker 2: few quiet months work wise, but also the catalyst, as

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Speaker 2: you said, with the whole world suddenly in their heads

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Speaker 2: around how to deal with stressors and the unpredictable and

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Speaker 2: the extraordinary, which really led us to codify our thoughts

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Speaker 2: and our model into the I.

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Speaker 3: Think it's just extraordinary.

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Speaker 1: Like I feel like books and opportunities really come to

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Speaker 1: you just when you need them, or just when the

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Speaker 1: universe needs them, just like you'll open the page of

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Speaker 1: a book and a quote will come out that's exactly

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Speaker 1: what you need to hear. And I wouldn't have thought

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Speaker 1: that someone's transition from you know, and a position in

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Speaker 1: Special Forces to back to a consultancy or even studying,

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Speaker 1: or even just into family life and coming back to

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Speaker 1: Wa from Afghanistan like you have such a different pace

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Speaker 1: of life. But the message of losing your purpose and

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Speaker 1: your title and your identity in one world and having

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Speaker 1: to find it again.

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Speaker 3: In a new world, in a new normal.

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Speaker 1: Is exactly what everyone needs to hear right now. And

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Speaker 1: your whole first chapter about uncertainty, unfairness in the world

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Speaker 1: and not knowing why some things happen and trying to

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Speaker 1: make sense of that but still living a fulfilling life.

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Speaker 1: That's what everyone needs right now in the most you know,

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Speaker 1: acute way. So it's incredible how you might never have

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Speaker 1: known you'd become authors, but the minute that you did

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00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:00,359
Speaker 1: was exactly the minute when everything cold went over the

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Speaker 1: last however many decades is what the world needs to hear.

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Speaker 1: Which I just think is that's yay for me. That

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Speaker 1: is so exciting, which is why I've just been like

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Speaker 1: so thrilled to have you guys on. So, yeah, what

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Speaker 1: a story. And I know that, I mean, obviously that's

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Speaker 1: a very very short form version. And I am going

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Speaker 1: to tell Tim later that you did refer to him

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Speaker 1: as your wife, which I.

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Speaker 3: Think is really lovely. But joined the.

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Speaker 1: Three of you together collectively making up one legitimate author.

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Speaker 1: I love how much you guys are like brothers and

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Speaker 1: wives and partners and like, it's just.

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Speaker 3: This beautiful little threesome going on.

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00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:42,400
Speaker 5: So Tim, someone just started listening at that point.

405
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Speaker 3: What I walked into.

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00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:52,880
Speaker 1: Maybe they see joy in an interesting kind of trio way.

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Speaker 3: Oh, so Ben was.

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Speaker 1: The fat kid, Dan, you were the professional triathlete, I

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Speaker 1: mean the opposite.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, let's let's back up there, Sarah. That's I mean.

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Speaker 3: I love that it's professional.

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Speaker 2: I think the word failed it will become before that

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Speaker 2: was certainly my ambition. And don't get me wrong, I was.

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Speaker 2: I was a chubby little kid as well. God bless

415
00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:18,280
Speaker 2: her he fed us up. Well, there was always common

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Speaker 2: jam doughnuts waiting for us when we got home from school.

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Speaker 2: And but yeah, I turned down a little earlier than Ben.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't even tell you why, but I.

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Speaker 4: Think it was I realized that.

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Speaker 3: That you were going to be wearing three quarter pants,

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Speaker 3: so you have a.

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Speaker 4: Good, very flattering for my chubby form.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, with the baggish, baggy shirts, and yeah, I

424
00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,800
Speaker 2: was that guy with that annoying little hat on Backwoods

425
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Speaker 2: listening to gangster rap as a little fat, thirteen year

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Speaker 2: old white kid.

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Speaker 4: But for whatever reason, I got.

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Speaker 5: Sorry, did you did you mention the rollerblades going to focus?

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Speaker 3: I think it's important.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, there was a roller.

431
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Speaker 2: Waiting stage, but once again, like the three quarter length pan,

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Speaker 2: this was the nineteen nineties, so it's not like a

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty one rollerblater. I'd like to keep anyway, moving on.

434
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Speaker 2: So yeah, when I sort of hit my mid teens,

435
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,280
Speaker 2: I became interested in middle distance running and so started

436
00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,600
Speaker 2: running relatively competitively. Had a bit of success with that,

437
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,560
Speaker 2: just at a state level, nothing sort of extraordinary, but

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Speaker 2: that led to an interest in triathlon.

439
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Speaker 4: Got into the Trithons.

440
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Speaker 2: And when I got out of school, was starting to

441
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Speaker 2: show a small amount of promise as a junior triathlete,

442
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:32,639
Speaker 2: and so I did pursue that for about five years

443
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:35,800
Speaker 2: pretty seriously. In that period of time, I got out

444
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:37,640
Speaker 2: of school and moved down to the Gold Coast and

445
00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:40,440
Speaker 2: I'd done okay at school, not great, but well enough

446
00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:42,399
Speaker 2: to get into an exercise science degree.

447
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:43,040
Speaker 4: Pretty much.

448
00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:46,880
Speaker 2: My parents and our aunt, good old aunt Mary, I'd

449
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:48,879
Speaker 2: said hey, we'll support you with your triathlon, but you

450
00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:50,960
Speaker 2: have to study. So I went off to UNI. I

451
00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,080
Speaker 2: was in my mind, Adam and I was going to

452
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,600
Speaker 2: be a professional athlete and the academia was just a

453
00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:00,359
Speaker 2: necessity to get some support. Went through all of that

454
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:02,560
Speaker 2: and sort of thrashed the trithlon thing for five years.

455
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:04,480
Speaker 2: It became really clear I wasn't going to be the

456
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:08,120
Speaker 2: athlete I wanted to be. I had finished my exercise

457
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,600
Speaker 2: science and done quite well in that in the end,

458
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:12,960
Speaker 2: because I got it. It made sense to me. It

459
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,120
Speaker 2: was relevant to the triathlon. I was doing a lot

460
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,520
Speaker 2: of the biophysics and the biomechanics, and we're in the

461
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:22,280
Speaker 2: exercise testing lab doing VOTWO max testing, and so it

462
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:24,280
Speaker 2: was the first time I hit my academic straps.

463
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,119
Speaker 4: And at the end of that that was a year

464
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 4: two thousand.

465
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,920
Speaker 2: I took that year off to try and give triathlon

466
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,199
Speaker 2: a final nudge, and it was abundantly clear I was

467
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:35,840
Speaker 2: nowhere near the athlete that I wanted to be. There

468
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,960
Speaker 2: wasn't a future there, and so that all fell through,

469
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:42,000
Speaker 2: and realized I had to grow up and get a

470
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:42,440
Speaker 2: real job.

471
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:44,280
Speaker 4: And I'd gone through my youth with no.

472
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:47,760
Speaker 2: Interest in the military at all. And as I said,

473
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,760
Speaker 2: I'd go along to Ben's graduation parade with shoulder length

474
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:53,639
Speaker 2: dreadlocks and an earring and just sort of watch the

475
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:57,639
Speaker 2: officer cadets march around, completely bemused.

476
00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:58,200
Speaker 5: By this whole spectacle.

477
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 2: And never did I know I'd end up doing that

478
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:04,359
Speaker 2: same sort of being on that same parade ground doing

479
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:06,720
Speaker 2: orbit a very limited officer training.

480
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 4: So when the trathline thing fell through, it done. My

481
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:10,359
Speaker 4: exercise science.

482
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,199
Speaker 2: Didn't really want to work in that area. I on

483
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,159
Speaker 2: a bit of a whim SAT the Graduate Medical School

484
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 2: Admission test, the gam SAT to go and do postgrade medicine.

485
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,240
Speaker 2: That was the first time that the Army started looking

486
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,520
Speaker 2: like a reasonable option for me because I just didn't

487
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:28,400
Speaker 2: have a career path and I was in my early

488
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,719
Speaker 2: twenties and started to prove into both of them, got

489
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:35,680
Speaker 2: myself into med school and then Dad actually told me

490
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 2: about the scholarship scheme. So the Army has a scholarship

491
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 2: scheme to put people through postgraduate study. And so I

492
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,639
Speaker 2: managed to get an Army scholarship, went off and did medicine,

493
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:46,720
Speaker 2: and it was at the first year of medicine, so

494
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:48,359
Speaker 2: I was full time Army. They picked me up, but

495
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 2: I was at a civilian medical school, so fundamentally a

496
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:54,639
Speaker 2: UNI student. Still no real interest in the Army at

497
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 2: that point. It was just a means of funding my education.

498
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:02,479
Speaker 2: I saw it a spree money be perfectly free. And

499
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 2: then it was the end of that first year at

500
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 2: med school, which two thousand and one, when I was

501
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,199
Speaker 2: going to interject because at this stage I'm deep and

502
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:12,800
Speaker 2: I'm about queen and country.

503
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,600
Speaker 6: I'm like you to do something the nation and this

504
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:20,719
Speaker 6: is more than a job pain yet to go to

505
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,440
Speaker 6: med school and I don't even have to do anything

506
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:25,480
Speaker 6: ext study.

507
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 4: When do I sign it?

508
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, that was a bit of a burr under my

509
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:29,360
Speaker 5: st le for a little.

510
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,359
Speaker 1: I mean, but if if there's any better example that

511
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:36,119
Speaker 1: pathways into the military can happen in completely different ways

512
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 1: and you can get you can have different goals but

513
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 1: still come out with really rewarding careers.

514
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:42,879
Speaker 3: I mean, you guys are a walking ad.

515
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:43,359
Speaker 2: Really.

516
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:45,920
Speaker 4: Look, it just made a whole bunch of sense.

517
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 2: And the motivations initially weren't probably the right ones, but

518
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 2: they certainly became that.

519
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:53,880
Speaker 4: And it was end of one when.

520
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 2: So Ben was over at SASR. By that point I

521
00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 2: still had no interest in special operations until the December

522
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 2: Holidays UNI holidays after my first year med school September

523
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:08,439
Speaker 2: eleventh had happened and Australia had pushed its initial special

524
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:10,919
Speaker 2: operations over to Afghanistan. I think, Ben, you're gearing up

525
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 2: for the second push in very early too, and I

526
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 2: went over to Perth to visit Ben before he deployed,

527
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 2: and that was when I met some of the other

528
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 2: blokes from the regiment and went to the base and

529
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 2: had a bit of a look and just got that

530
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 2: inside and it was like this light bulb moment was

531
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,399
Speaker 2: I got to be involved. This is for me, And

532
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,680
Speaker 2: so set myself the goal at the end of one

533
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 2: to try and get into the Essays Regiment. I still

534
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 2: had to finish medical school and then do an internship

535
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 2: and another year as a junior dog, do all my army.

536
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,439
Speaker 2: So it was a lengthy process, but I had this

537
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:46,640
Speaker 2: focus again that I hadn't had in my life since

538
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:48,879
Speaker 2: the triathlon. So it was a great way for me

539
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 2: to just have this long term goal that motivated me

540
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 2: to train. I had my study and yeah, then sort

541
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 2: of fast forward, finished my med school, did my internship residency,

542
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 2: went in, did all my basic medical officer induction stuff,

543
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 2: and then the first chance I got, which was in

544
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:06,720
Speaker 2: two thousand and eight, I went and did the essays

545
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 2: selection course and got through that, and then there was

546
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 2: a bit of a convoluted pathway, but that pushed me

547
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:16,040
Speaker 2: into the Special Operations direction and I managed to get

548
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,719
Speaker 2: the opportunity to serve with the Second Commando Regiment and

549
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 2: SASR over the next five years. And so had that

550
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 2: just that incredibly rewarding experience there and found a real

551
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 2: passion for the tactical medicine in terms of just applying

552
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,199
Speaker 2: the medical skill set in that military environment, and so

553
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 2: that while it didn't start off as having any real

554
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,360
Speaker 2: passion for either medicine or the military, it really came

555
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 2: together in this incredible thing that's to date's been the

556
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:46,440
Speaker 2: most professionally rewarding period.

557
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 4: Of my life to go and do that.

558
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:52,399
Speaker 2: Then got out in twenty fourteen, did my MBA that year.

559
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,879
Speaker 2: Actually over a couple of years, I did it corresponden

560
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,680
Speaker 2: so online and then started to where I did a

561
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,119
Speaker 2: bit of line fly out staff, worked as a ship stocked,

562
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:06,159
Speaker 2: a couple of other different remote jobs. Then had an

563
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,399
Speaker 2: opportunity to go and help run a small hospital up

564
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 2: in Queensland, so to work as the deputy medical superintendent

565
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 2: of a hospital for a good friend of mine who

566
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 2: was the med super up there. So did that for

567
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 2: three years, working in ed and also helping run the facility.

568
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:24,160
Speaker 2: And then my wife's Adelaide girl and so we moved

569
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,920
Speaker 2: back to Adelaide and I picked up a role running

570
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 2: as the medical director for the state Prison Health Service.

571
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 5: So I worked in the medical side of.

572
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:34,880
Speaker 2: Prison health for a few years and have gotten out

573
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,159
Speaker 2: of that earlier this year, and doing a little bit

574
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,640
Speaker 2: of d work and a few other bits and pieces

575
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 2: at the moment, and then of course the whole Resilient

576
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,479
Speaker 2: Shield project. My interest in that fell out of that

577
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 2: transition out of defense, where for the first year or

578
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 2: two I had a really warbly time and it was

579
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 2: just a huge adjustment. I'd lost my purpose once again,

580
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 2: I'd lost my identity. And it was at that stage

581
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 2: that some of the cumulative experiences of my time, particularly

582
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 2: on operations in Afghanistan, started to catch up with me

583
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 2: and it just seemed paradoxical that I'd never been safer,

584
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:11,400
Speaker 2: I'd never been earning more money, I'd never been at

585
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,640
Speaker 2: home more, and this stuff was starting to come back

586
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:16,880
Speaker 2: to bite me on the ass. And so I started

587
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 2: to just do a bit of a deep dive into

588
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 2: what this resilience thing was, why we were all able

589
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 2: to stay so resilient in those high stress environments. And

590
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 2: then when you take the pressure off a lot of

591
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 2: discharging soldiers, that's when they start to have a few problems,

592
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,399
Speaker 2: as I did. And so yeah, that led to my

593
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 2: deep interest in resilience.

594
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 1: Well, I love that. I think now everyone will understand

595
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 1: a little bit better. Why I was like, God, why

596
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 1: did I even research these guys before they came home?

597
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 1: You were so qualified, incredibly articulate, and the intellect shines

598
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 1: through so much when you just refer to taking the

599
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: gamsat which people study for like eight years for I just.

600
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 3: Like I just did medicine. I just accidentally became a doctor.

601
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 4: It convinced.

602
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 2: That test has got exponentially harder than when I did it,

603
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 2: because I was trying to help someone study for it

604
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 2: a few years back, and I couldn't. I couldn't do half.

605
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:11,959
Speaker 4: So yeah, I think it was. It was easy when

606
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 4: I did it.

607
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 5: I'm sure of it.

608
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 3: Oh, I doubt that.

609
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 1: But I think that's something that is so unique about

610
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 1: your book as well, is because you both, well all

611
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 1: three of you do have this incredible academic basis as well.

612
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 1: You bring a lot of science to a lot of

613
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 1: the conversations. There's anecdotal evidence, but there's a lot of science.

614
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 1: There's a lot of diagrams, there's a lot of backing

615
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 1: for certain concepts and certain patterns in the brain. That

616
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 1: adds a legitimacy that sometimes you don't get in books

617
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 1: like this that are really trying to army with tools,

618
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 1: which I loved so much and thought was a really

619
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 1: really different, valuable part. It's hard to write a different

620
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 1: book right now, but you guys have done an incredible job.

621
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 1: They continue to just flow me away.

622
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 2: Well, it's awesome you say that. I mean sorry that

623
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 2: that was a massive, really important thing for us that

624
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 2: the last thing we wanted was another book saying you know,

625
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 2: I was at war need even grenade pins, and you

626
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 2: should be more like me a because that's not the case.

627
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 2: Because we've seen so many of our friends who were,

628
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 2: by most metrics, incredibly resilient. They were physically indestructible or

629
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 2: mentally robust, and yet some of them were still having issues.

630
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 5: So for us, this.

631
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 2: Concept of resilience obviously needed to be more than just that,

632
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 2: and so that was part of the exploration. But the

633
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 2: other thing for us is that, you know, we didn't

634
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 2: see ourselves as that different. We've done this job, which

635
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 2: seems different to a lot of people, but we've done

636
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 2: a lot of training for it, We've prepared for it.

637
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 2: You know, it wasn't I guess that sort of I

638
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 2: guess superhuman type thing. And so it was really important

639
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:51,719
Speaker 2: to us that whatever we did was scientifically backed and applicable,

640
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 2: sort of beyond just our own I guess limited experiences.

641
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 1: I don't know about you, guys, but I guess it's

642
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 1: such a rush of motivation and energy to keep learning

643
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:05,959
Speaker 1: and upskilling when I hear from our guests each week.

644
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 1: If you're feeling the same, I am so thrilled to

645
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 1: share that I'm hosting a free small business boot camp

646
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:15,520
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647
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648
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649
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650
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651
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:31,520
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652
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 3: It blew me out of the water.

653
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 1: I took so much away from our panelists, so make

654
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:39,040
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655
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656
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657
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658
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659
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660
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Speaker 3: The show notes.

661
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Speaker 1: One giant silver lining of the past year or so

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Speaker 1: has been getting access to some of the cleverest minds

663
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 1: and their wisdom without having to go anywhere. So don't

664
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 1: miss the chance to take advantage while you can hopefully

665
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 1: see you there neighborhood. And I think something else that's

666
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 1: really evident in the way that you write and present

667
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 1: a lot of these concepts, and it is even explicitly mentioned,

668
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 1: is the relationship between resilience and vulnerability. And from three

669
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: sas guys who have just not been scared in situations

670
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 1: that terrify most of us, and we'd freeze, you know,

671
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 1: like who you have these preconceptions about your masculinity and

672
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 1: your strength, and I think it was so important that

673
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 1: you did share. Like Dan, you shared that you did

674
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 1: have a hard time transitioning back into life. There was

675
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 1: a lot of trauma, and that being vulnerable isn't the

676
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 1: anathema to resilience.

677
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 3: They actually go hand in.

678
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 1: Hand, which makes it even more relatable because people don't think,

679
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 1: here's these really feearless sas guys telling me what to do,

680
00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 1: because of course they wouldn't be scared of anything. You

681
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 1: actually opened up about those parts, which I think made

682
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 1: it even more like it hits even harder when you

683
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 1: see that you are just people who have vulnerabilities as

684
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 1: well well.

685
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 2: Exactly as Ben just said as well, it's what you're

686
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 2: trained to be resilient against, like you can train resilience

687
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 2: and so and that's an important thing. And it's when

688
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 2: you look at things like traumatic experiences and stressors. It's

689
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 2: relative to the individual. It's not you can't compare your

690
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 2: trauma to someone else's, it just doesn't work that way.

691
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 2: It's what you're resilient against. And so for someone like

692
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 2: a special operation soldier, they can go off into a

693
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 2: combat environment and that's not necessarily stressful for them, but

694
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 2: you know, put them in put them on stage and

695
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 2: tell them to sing, and they'll be panicked like anyone else,

696
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 2: you know, because they don't have resilience.

697
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 5: Against that stress.

698
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 2: And so I think that's a trap that people fall

699
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 2: into when I've had it a number of times at

700
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 2: presentations and things, people opening up coming and seeing me

701
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 2: in a break and saying, oh, you know, it's nothing

702
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 2: compared to you, but you know, I've had this happen

703
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 2: and some of those are hugely stressful things for these individuals.

704
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 2: So I think we have this tendency to diminish our

705
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 2: own experience relative to someone else's, and we need to

706
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 2: not view it like that. It's not a competition. If

707
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 2: it's real to us, then it's real. And it's that

708
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 2: balance of the stress or versus your resilience against that

709
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 2: stress or, and if the stress overwhelms your resilience, then

710
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 2: that's going to be a traumatic experience for you totally.

711
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 1: And I think you bring a lot of concepts in,

712
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 1: like even the first three chapters are on the sense

713
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 1: making concepts that help really break down the way our

714
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 1: brain works and the way that we are so different

715
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 1: and stress isn't something that can really be measured because

716
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 1: and particularly in a pandemic, like people are trying to measure,

717
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:37,439
Speaker 1: there's a lot. It's a heavy newsweek this week, there's

718
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 1: a lot going on for other people. But that doesn't

719
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 1: mean that you're not having a challenge because your world

720
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 1: is dismantled, even in a different way to how someone

721
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 1: else's is.

722
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 3: So I think that also is particularly timely.

723
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,879
Speaker 1: I mentioned before there is so much I took out

724
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 1: of this book, and I didn't know where to start,

725
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:54,720
Speaker 1: and I've written so many notes, but I thought maybe

726
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 1: it might be easier to get you guys, to sort

727
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 1: of introduce the concept of the shield, what it is,

728
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,919
Speaker 1: a little bit of a taster into how you chose

729
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 1: to break down the chapters and the way that you

730
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 1: brought in anecdotes versus like the way that you've even

731
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 1: managed to in the same book compare life to a

732
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 1: Chicken Street carpet shop, and also talk about Wabi sabi

733
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 1: in Japan and Cisu in Finland and Richard Harris our

734
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,839
Speaker 1: favorite episode on this show, the Cave Diver, and then

735
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 1: also Dickhead Bosses and porpoising in a chinork like, I

736
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:30,400
Speaker 1: don't even know how you did it.

737
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 3: So introduce us to the Resilient.

738
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 1: Shield, the concept, the big takeaways that you think we

739
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 1: all need to hear right now.

740
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:40,800
Speaker 2: So I think from the genesis of the model, Dan's

741
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 2: experiences were a catalyst. And as I mentioned before, it

742
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 2: didn't seem to make sense on the surface that he

743
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 2: could get out of the military, get away from all

744
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 2: of that stress, and then have the negative experiences. And

745
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:57,439
Speaker 2: it also didn't seem to make sense in that he's

746
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 2: it together, dude, he's physically mentally with I can't even

747
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 2: say that without last.

748
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 1: Advanced to retire from three quarter pants, he wears full

749
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 1: length pants.

750
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:12,880
Speaker 3: Now he's come a long way.

751
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 5: He doesn't anymore.

752
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 3: So are you sure?

753
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 4: Well?

754
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 5: I'm not so.

755
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 2: I play for his looking all right, and yet you

756
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 2: know he can still have these issues. And so the

757
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:26,879
Speaker 2: big thing for us when we sat down to try

758
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,239
Speaker 2: and nut out a model of resilience, it needed to

759
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 2: be scientifically packed. It needed to be dynamic in that

760
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 2: it could grow with us, and it could search and

761
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,759
Speaker 2: flex to different points in our life and also to

762
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 2: different life experiences, different people's life. It needed to be

763
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 2: multi factoral. We've seen a lot of outstanding resilience related

764
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 2: stuff out there that talks only about one single day.

765
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 2: So it might talk about gratitude and mindfulness, or it

766
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 2: might talk about physical fitness, or it might talk about

767
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:57,839
Speaker 2: the importance asleep. We want to work out how all

768
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 2: those things interrelated. And it needed to be modifiable. There

769
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:05,440
Speaker 2: was no point having an academic document that sort of

770
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:09,400
Speaker 2: explained why you were having depressive issues. It needed to

771
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:11,439
Speaker 2: be something we could get better at. We could look

772
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 2: at ways of improving. So that was the parameters we

773
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 2: set ourselves. We ended up necking it down to the

774
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 2: six layers that we've spoken about in the book. The

775
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:25,320
Speaker 2: the innate layer nature, nurture, genetics, effort, genetics, your character,

776
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 2: your personality or values. The mind layer is the next

777
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 2: on the metal one, which includes everything spiritual and psychological.

778
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:36,720
Speaker 2: It includes your perspective, your mindset, your views, but also,

779
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,239
Speaker 2: as team loves to say, your ability to flush the

780
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 2: nonsense out, so things like meditation, things like mindfulness, things

781
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,839
Speaker 2: like gratitude, what you store in your head, and how

782
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 2: you process things. The body layer is three words slip, diet,

783
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:56,240
Speaker 2: and exercise. Social layer, absolutely crucial, how you interact with people,

784
00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 2: particularly those outside of a work setting. You know, the

785
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 2: social connections we're likely to have for our entire life.

786
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 2: And then the professional layer, which talks about our ability

787
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 2: to find purpose and virtuosity and what we do in

788
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 2: a professional context. We wrap it all up in this

789
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 2: idea of adaptation, the idea that if you can develop

790
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,400
Speaker 2: competence in each of those previous layers, or recognize competence

791
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,720
Speaker 2: in them, then you're essentially ready for whatever the world's

792
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,400
Speaker 2: going to throw at you when the zombie apocalypse comes,

793
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:31,359
Speaker 2: even though you might have seen it before. You can

794
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 2: adapt those characteristics going forward.

795
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 4: Or as we outline. And you know you mentioned Harry before.

796
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 2: When an unprecedented event occurs, you've got a bunch of

797
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 2: people stuck in a flooded cave. Guess what, We've got

798
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 2: a guy here who's got a huge amount of skills

799
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:49,240
Speaker 2: in anesthesia, a huge amount of skills in cave diving,

800
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:53,240
Speaker 2: brings them together and goes and well, not single handedly,

801
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 2: but it was fundamental to saving the day.

802
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think one of the things I loved so

803
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:01,320
Speaker 1: much about that episode was that people are so flooded.

804
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:06,319
Speaker 1: In fact, you guys actually managed to scientifically prove and

805
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,360
Speaker 1: also express so articulately a concept that I've been babbling

806
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 1: around trying to explain for so long, and now I

807
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 1: am so grateful that you've proven that it's true that

808
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 1: the information overload that we face in our life has

809
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 1: increased at a pace that our brain's physical evolution can't

810
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 1: keep up with, which causes all kinds of problems. But

811
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 1: because of the increased visibility of everyone else's lives, we're

812
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:31,280
Speaker 1: subject to so many expectations and norms about what happiness

813
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 1: looks like, what success looks like, what joy looks like.

814
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:36,880
Speaker 1: And Harry, to me, was such a perfect example that

815
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 1: if you have random things that light you up that

816
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:44,400
Speaker 1: don't make sense. Being an anesthesiologist or an ethetist and

817
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 1: being a technical cave diver are not related. They don't

818
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 1: necessarily help each other. You have to organize your life

819
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,400
Speaker 1: in a way that allows you to do both. But

820
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 1: he's stuck to it, and there was only one of

821
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:58,040
Speaker 1: him in the entire world that could save those boys,

822
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 1: And that to me was like, you have just proven

823
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:04,360
Speaker 1: the theory that whatever weird stuff makes you happy, you

824
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 1: need to do that because one day that exact combination

825
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:08,879
Speaker 1: will be what someone else in the world needs, which

826
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,840
Speaker 1: is just thrilling to think that our weirdness is what

827
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 1: makes us special, not our uniformity. It's the stuff that

828
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 1: makes us odd balls.

829
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 5: I love that, and I love you.

830
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 2: The flip side, Dan said that the resilience and stress

831
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 2: is not a competition. You know, you shouldn't be thinking

832
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 2: I didn't have to say, you know, kids from a

833
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:30,399
Speaker 2: flooded cave, or I didn't have to go to war.

834
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 2: Therefore I don't deserve to feel stress. Our weirdness, the

835
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 2: different things that stresses it shouldn't be about sort of

836
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:41,319
Speaker 2: working out a relativity or you know, what's better or

837
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 2: more worthy of the stress or resilience. It's about accepting that, hey,

838
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 2: if this is having an impact on me, positive or negative,

839
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 2: then lean into the positive and deal with the negative.

840
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 2: It's not about comparing it to other people.

841
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 4: Yeah.

842
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 1: Absolutely, something that quite a few different chapters kind of

843
00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:59,479
Speaker 1: covered these concepts, and that's really pivotal to the idea

844
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 1: of CZ is redefining your happiness around input versus output,

845
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 1: but also in terms of positivity versus negativity and embracing

846
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 1: the suck as we spoke about before, like negativity.

847
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:12,319
Speaker 3: Will always be there.

848
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 1: And then also when you do find your purpose and

849
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:18,760
Speaker 1: you do have your goals, that idea of micro goals

850
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 1: and not always needing to jump to the end. I

851
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 1: always say in my book it's called dream big, Plan small.

852
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:26,920
Speaker 1: For you guys, it's expressed is always a little bit further.

853
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 1: And that concept just it hits me in the gut

854
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:33,279
Speaker 1: every single time of just how much society hails this

855
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:38,880
Speaker 1: idea of like here starting point, destination and nothing in between.

856
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 1: But in between is the bit that's life, you know,

857
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 1: and I get so frustrated.

858
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 3: I'm like, it's not the destination.

859
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 1: So especially with you guys, having reinvented your identities completely

860
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:53,799
Speaker 1: a couple of times in your life. Yeah, it took

861
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 1: us through those kind of concepts in the book.

862
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it is crucian.

863
00:41:57,640 --> 00:41:59,799
Speaker 2: I think social media has a lot to answer for

864
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,880
Speaker 2: because we do just see those one minute snapshots of

865
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 2: people doing something outrageous or excellent or outstanding, and what

866
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:11,240
Speaker 2: gets missed in that is the twenty years of training

867
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 2: that went into that, you know, and so we get

868
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 2: these false ideals of what's positive, and it makes us

869
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 2: feel bad about ourselves because we can't achieve that you

870
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 2: miss that bit in between.

871
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 5: And one of the sort of.

872
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 2: Reference points that I think is great here is you

873
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:29,880
Speaker 2: talk about someone getting on top of Mount Everest, and

874
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 2: if you were to hop in a helicopter and go

875
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:33,919
Speaker 2: up on top there, then that's one thing, but it's

876
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 2: not where near the same as if you train for

877
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:37,719
Speaker 2: years and years and you climb that thing and you

878
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 2: get to the top and get that reward, and even

879
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 2: if you don't get to the top, that's probably exponentially

880
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 2: better than just taking that shortcut and getting plunked on

881
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 2: top of the hill for the view. And so the

882
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:53,400
Speaker 2: happiness is in the struggle and it's the reality of it.

883
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 2: And I think you know, setting those goals, working towards

884
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 2: those goals, whether you hit them or not, you're going

885
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:00,160
Speaker 2: to end up a better version of yourself.

886
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 5: But just continuing to evolve.

887
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:04,240
Speaker 2: And we talk about that all ways a little further

888
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 2: and you may not know where that end goal is,

889
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 2: or you may have set that lofty goal as I

890
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:11,719
Speaker 2: did with triathlon that I felt miserably short of, but

891
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 2: that allowed me to have this foundation of physical fitness

892
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 2: that was then applicable to training towards the military stuff.

893
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,720
Speaker 2: And it also gave me that discipline that was also

894
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,960
Speaker 2: translatable across to the studying of medicine and these kinds

895
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 2: of things. So nothing's ever lost. And I think it's

896
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 2: very important for us as humans to set these goals

897
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 2: and chip away at them, enjoy the journey, and if

898
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 2: you get to that goal, great, and then set a

899
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:41,479
Speaker 2: new one and keep going from there. If you don't

900
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 2: and it takes you somewhere else, you know you're going

901
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 2: to end off better often if you didn't set the

902
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 2: goal in the first instance. This for me is where

903
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:51,320
Speaker 2: so many of these thick concepts are interrelated, and I've

904
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 2: got a much better appreciation of meditation on fromness of gratitude.

905
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 2: I think all three of them have got a pr problem,

906
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 2: maybe particularly most Aussie mails in that you know, even

907
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 2: as I'm saying these words, I'm thinking sort of mung

908
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 2: beans and flowing roads and in a sense, and you know,

909
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 2: it's not as accessible to I guess the mindset I

910
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 2: used to have, but that idea, particularly things like gratitude.

911
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:19,880
Speaker 2: Our own research and a ton of other bodies of

912
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:23,960
Speaker 2: research has suggested that that is an incredibly powerful thing.

913
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:28,800
Speaker 2: It's correlated so strongly with global resilience that it's worth

914
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:32,720
Speaker 2: looking at. And part of gratitude is accepting what you've got,

915
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 2: and another part is that concept of micro goals and

916
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:39,759
Speaker 2: being able to put markers of what you've achieved and

917
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 2: to be thankful and to acknowledge pat yourself on the

918
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 2: back for having done that. And I think, to Dan's point,

919
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 2: it's not about scaling Everest, it's about you know, developing

920
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:53,879
Speaker 2: that first plan to start walking upstairs with a pack

921
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:56,720
Speaker 2: on your back, and then acknowledging that that's one step

922
00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 2: of the way. Because to your point, and we love

923
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 2: that John life of what's happens when you're busily making

924
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 2: other plans. I mean, this is what we've got. It's

925
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 2: not the end state, it's the process. And Dan has

926
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 2: a beautiful is it a Buddhist philosophy mat to sort

927
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:14,840
Speaker 2: of enjoy the journey not the destination.

928
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:15,439
Speaker 1: Yeah.

929
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:17,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, I think it goes across a lot of

930
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 2: philosophies and religions, but yeah, Buddhism, that impermanence of.

931
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 4: Everything is an underlying theme there.

932
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 2: And yeah, that does tie in, as you were saying,

933
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 2: to that whole mindfulness, like being present and not just

934
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 2: being future focused or dwelling on the past, just doing

935
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 2: what you can achieve in the moment, being present, having

936
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 2: those meaningful engagements and doing it.

937
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, always a little further.

938
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 3: I love always a little further.

939
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:42,839
Speaker 1: It's so simple, but it's so tangible, like you could

940
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:44,759
Speaker 1: just write it down and apply it to anything that

941
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 1: you're not.

942
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:46,400
Speaker 3: You don't need to rush to the end. It's just

943
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:47,240
Speaker 3: a little further.

944
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:51,239
Speaker 1: And I think at the moment, particularly you know on

945
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:53,320
Speaker 1: the eastern side of the country, where it's a hard

946
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:54,799
Speaker 1: thing to wake up every day and not be able

947
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 1: to leave your house, that changing the goalposts from I

948
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 1: need to stay as happy as I was before or

949
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 1: I need to be as productive as I was before.

950
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:04,520
Speaker 1: You know that just get a little bit further today.

951
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:06,879
Speaker 1: That's all you need to do is suddenly so much

952
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:09,440
Speaker 1: more achievable, which then makes your mindset better because then

953
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:11,839
Speaker 1: you don't feel like a failure because you're not being

954
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 1: you know, working efficiently, or you're not achieving what you're

955
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 1: supposed to achieve. I love that mentality, And if I

956
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 1: highlighted anything in the book, it was that just just

957
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 1: a little further, like stop trying to aid type even

958
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 1: with rest, you know, I'm like, oh, we've got four

959
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:26,920
Speaker 1: slow down, lockdown, Yeah, and then I a type my

960
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:30,240
Speaker 1: resting like okay, how am I going to diy renovate

961
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 1: my house or sprin clean or like have you know

962
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:36,279
Speaker 1: the most baths of any person in the world. You know,

963
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:38,839
Speaker 1: like I can't just relax, so that just a little

964
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:40,279
Speaker 1: bit further, you don't need to go the whole way.

965
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:41,920
Speaker 3: That was really really valuable.

966
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 1: Did you guys find anything when you were writing, like

967
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:48,160
Speaker 1: I kind of find something that was Another way that

968
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:51,400
Speaker 1: you translated a military concept into something really useful for

969
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:54,560
Speaker 1: the masses was the after action report and the idea

970
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 1: of debriefing and writing down just journaling, like it ties

971
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 1: into the same importance of things down to consolidate your

972
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:03,759
Speaker 1: thoughts and what you learned. I found when I was

973
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 1: writing my book, I learned a lot of things that

974
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 1: I didn't realize I knew, or that I hadn't consolidated,

975
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 1: just through the process of trying to tell someone else

976
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:15,719
Speaker 1: the concept. Did you guys pick up anything that was

977
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 1: like an aha moment for yourselves while you were writing

978
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 1: or researching.

979
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:24,279
Speaker 2: Certainly for me, there's a couple of things at a

980
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:28,600
Speaker 2: global level. Putting this down on paper is exactly the

981
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 2: same as doing a journal or doing what we call

982
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 2: a rexilience action plan. It makes it very difficult to

983
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:37,919
Speaker 2: then not live what you're preaching. And so we've done

984
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 2: all this research about how important I keep using meditation

985
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 2: because that was my moment coming to that through this process.

986
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 5: But yeah, it now makes it very hard.

987
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 2: For me to say I'm too busy to meditate because

988
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:53,160
Speaker 2: I've got all this research in the back of my

989
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:55,920
Speaker 2: head that says And in fact, we had a guy

990
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 2: on our podcast call Gary Goro, who said, look, if

991
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 2: you haven't got twenty mins and that's in your day

992
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 2: to meditate, then you need to be meditating for forty minutes.

993
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 2: You know, if you're that busy, then you really need

994
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:09,439
Speaker 2: this stuff. And so those kind of things I find

995
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 2: help really keep you to account. And I love that

996
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:14,720
Speaker 2: always a little further has resonated with you, Sarah, because

997
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:17,600
Speaker 2: that has been a mantra with me for years. It's

998
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 2: got a connection back into the British Sas and it's

999
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 2: an amazing poem, like I called Flecker, but it is

1000
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 2: always in the back of my head and it makes

1001
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 2: it really hard for me. The classic for me every

1002
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 2: morning I come out of the train and I've got

1003
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:35,319
Speaker 2: the incredibly steep staircase or the escalator, and I've got

1004
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 2: this absolute choice at the start of my day, and

1005
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 2: there's this little annoying dickhead in the back of my

1006
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:43,000
Speaker 2: brain going always a little further and I take the

1007
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 2: stairs instead of the elevator.

1008
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 5: But those kind of things be useful.

1009
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 2: They do move the needle in my life, and I

1010
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:51,680
Speaker 2: hope in other people. I find the same thing with

1011
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 2: that stair verse elevator thing. It always and you know, sadly,

1012
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:58,960
Speaker 2: the lots of veterans Ben Tim and I included, have

1013
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:02,320
Speaker 2: got mates that lost their legs in Afghanistan, Iraq, and

1014
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 2: I look at that and I think, well, you know what,

1015
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:05,120
Speaker 2: I've got legs.

1016
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:05,719
Speaker 4: I'm going to use them.

1017
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:08,279
Speaker 2: And it's just a reminder these small things like to

1018
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 2: it sounds a little bit silly to be grateful for

1019
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:15,839
Speaker 2: having legs, but it's a recalibration that we underwent and

1020
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 2: you come back, and certainly I did, with a completely

1021
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 2: different view of everything here and this newfound appreciation and

1022
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:27,400
Speaker 2: this complete recalibration all the stuff that we take for granted,

1023
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 2: because that's human nature. When you're living a comfortable, middle

1024
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:34,319
Speaker 2: class existence and then you see these other experiences and

1025
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:37,560
Speaker 2: it changes things all of a sudden. If you can

1026
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:39,799
Speaker 2: realize just and if you can be grateful for the

1027
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 2: little things in life, it changes that whole mindset. And

1028
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:47,520
Speaker 2: it's so positively correlated that optimism and that gratitude is

1029
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 2: so positively correlated to resilience.

1030
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:53,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, gratitude is so important. And not to take

1031
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:55,759
Speaker 1: away that people are facing a lot of challenge at

1032
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 1: the moment. There'll always be stories of trauma that's worse

1033
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 1: than yours and better than yours and whatever. But just

1034
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:03,160
Speaker 1: to have a little bit of an awareness of perspective,

1035
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:04,560
Speaker 1: I think is really important.

1036
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 2: I think that is a really interesting balance that you know,

1037
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:10,719
Speaker 2: part of what we're talking about is not belittling what

1038
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:12,840
Speaker 2: you're going through, because as Dan said before, it's not

1039
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 2: a competition, it is real. These stressors are real, and

1040
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:18,239
Speaker 2: we shouldn't be saying, oh, we shouldn't be stressed by

1041
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:21,440
Speaker 2: a lockdown because you know, carbleg just got rolled and

1042
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:26,800
Speaker 2: imagine being a prominent female in the Afghemstein infrastructure now.

1043
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 2: But by that same token, you know, having that awareness

1044
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:35,359
Speaker 2: to provide that counterbalance that what we've got is pretty good,

1045
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:37,480
Speaker 2: you know, being able to be grateful for it you've got.

1046
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:40,920
Speaker 2: I think they're actually nice counterpoints to one. Yeah.

1047
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:43,399
Speaker 1: Absolutely, it's hard to find a middle ground, I think

1048
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 1: with all the noise going on at the moment, but

1049
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:48,960
Speaker 1: important to be aware of balancing out the two before

1050
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 1: we move on to the last section, which is taking

1051
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:56,480
Speaker 1: your identities completely away from the you that is productive

1052
00:50:56,560 --> 00:50:59,439
Speaker 1: that has titles and just goes back to pure joy

1053
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:03,240
Speaker 1: like the unburdened wonder about the world of a child,

1054
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:05,760
Speaker 1: for example, And that's my favorite section because we indulge

1055
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:06,400
Speaker 1: in it so little.

1056
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:08,319
Speaker 3: Just a guilty pleasure.

1057
00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:12,640
Speaker 1: Question for me is around the idea that I've talked

1058
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 1: about this book so many times, and people listening are

1059
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 1: going to roll their eyes because they know how often.

1060
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 3: I talk about it.

1061
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 1: But there's a book called Emergency Sex, which is about

1062
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:20,880
Speaker 1: the four you guys might have heard of it, the

1063
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:28,239
Speaker 1: four UN workers who end up meeting each other in Somalia, Rwanda, Haiti,

1064
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 1: like the big nineties and early two thousands disaster zones,

1065
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:34,479
Speaker 1: and how they fight for their life to get back

1066
00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:37,640
Speaker 1: to stability and safety and their family. They make it back,

1067
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:39,400
Speaker 1: and then they hate it so much that they have

1068
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:42,200
Speaker 1: to go and find another war zone. And it's so

1069
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:45,880
Speaker 1: interesting to especially for someone like me who's so fascinated

1070
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:50,160
Speaker 1: in international conflict and war zones, how you can adapt

1071
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 1: to your body to chaos and to adrenaline and it

1072
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:55,960
Speaker 1: can become so addictive, not because it's sexy, like I

1073
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:58,480
Speaker 1: think that's a bit of an over glamorization, because it's

1074
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:01,600
Speaker 1: traumatic and it's horrible, but you can only think of

1075
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 1: the minute you're in and you're so needed. You're within

1076
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:06,399
Speaker 1: a structure, you have a clear sense of what you're

1077
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:08,600
Speaker 1: meant to do each day, and it's I can imagine

1078
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:12,840
Speaker 1: so difficult to leave that and then recalibrate to calm,

1079
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:15,520
Speaker 1: which people have outside of the military. They grow up

1080
00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:17,719
Speaker 1: in chaos and then they can't have stable relationships or

1081
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:20,000
Speaker 1: they you know, are used to adrenaline and they don't

1082
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:23,200
Speaker 1: know how to rest. Are there any parts of that

1083
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:25,720
Speaker 1: life that you miss?

1084
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 3: Do you miss all of that? Kind of that kind

1085
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 3: of crazy like action and jump out of.

1086
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:36,120
Speaker 2: Helicopter beautiful And I like that that emergency SEETX that

1087
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:37,760
Speaker 2: I don't know if you've seen a movie called Whiskey

1088
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:40,319
Speaker 2: Tango Foxtrow with Tina Fey in it as well, Like

1089
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:41,279
Speaker 2: that's super cool.

1090
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:44,520
Speaker 1: And I've seen all of them. I've seen all of them,

1091
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:45,319
Speaker 1: ben all of them.

1092
00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:49,440
Speaker 2: And even in our professional work, we do a lot

1093
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:53,440
Speaker 2: of work with crisis management, and even though the context

1094
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:55,560
Speaker 2: is terrible in an exercise or a real life in

1095
00:52:55,560 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 2: a fatality on an industrial side or whatever, people do

1096
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 2: tend to rise to crisis. And there's a couple of characteristics. One,

1097
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:11,160
Speaker 2: all the bullshit, your American Express bill, your dead, all

1098
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:13,239
Speaker 2: that stuff just fades away because you've got this one

1099
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:16,960
Speaker 2: crystal focus so important, so you've got a really clear purpose.

1100
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:18,640
Speaker 5: Generally, people arise.

1101
00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:23,160
Speaker 2: There's obviously all the neurochemical sort of responses that you know,

1102
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:27,000
Speaker 2: including natural opiates that give you a high relation to

1103
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:29,040
Speaker 2: those sort of stresses. So there's a lot of good

1104
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 2: stuff going on, but I think it's important to recognize

1105
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:36,520
Speaker 2: that that is not the normal, you know, and particularly

1106
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:40,440
Speaker 2: your body's reaction to that. It's not designed to be chronic.

1107
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:44,120
Speaker 2: It's supposed to get you through for that stress period,

1108
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:46,760
Speaker 2: and so even though it does feel great in the moment,

1109
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:50,280
Speaker 2: I think that recognition that you can't chase that dragon forever.

1110
00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:53,560
Speaker 5: It doesn't kind of work like that. So I don't know.

1111
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:58,880
Speaker 2: For me personally, I'm just super thankful, genuinely thankful to

1112
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:02,040
Speaker 2: have had the opportunity to experience those kind of things.

1113
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 5: I'm super thankful I got through in one piece.

1114
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:08,279
Speaker 2: I'm super thankful, you know, I haven't had sort of

1115
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:09,279
Speaker 2: bad issues.

1116
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:09,919
Speaker 5: As a result of it.

1117
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:14,920
Speaker 2: But I'm also I think can recognize that, you know,

1118
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:18,480
Speaker 2: I don't need to keep chasing that even though it

1119
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:22,279
Speaker 2: was excellent, that it's not any enduring or sustainable way

1120
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:24,600
Speaker 2: for me to live my life. There's another brilliant book

1121
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:26,719
Speaker 2: to add to that list of references. I don't know

1122
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:29,399
Speaker 2: if you've seen this one. Sarah it's called My War

1123
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:32,360
Speaker 2: Gone By. I miss it, so I can't remember the author.

1124
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:36,040
Speaker 2: Ben you might know that, but it was a UK

1125
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:41,360
Speaker 2: bloke who ended up falsifying some war reporter documents just

1126
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:45,279
Speaker 2: to get over to the Bosnian conflict and from Yugoslavia

1127
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:48,919
Speaker 2: and just got so involved and had such a sense

1128
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:52,040
Speaker 2: of purpose there and that camaraderie amongst other war reporters

1129
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:54,120
Speaker 2: that he just couldn't fit back in back in the

1130
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 2: UK and found himself more and more and then I

1131
00:54:56,120 --> 00:54:58,720
Speaker 2: think he ended up heroin addicted. But it's a pretty

1132
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:02,960
Speaker 2: sad but very powerful, full story of exactly that same thing.

1133
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:07,120
Speaker 2: And as been said, you know, I had imagine every

1134
00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:09,279
Speaker 2: one of us had the same experience of that, just

1135
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:12,600
Speaker 2: that complete flow state when you were engaged in say

1136
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:16,920
Speaker 2: something like a combat environment or responding to a casualty,

1137
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:19,960
Speaker 2: where that is your entire focus. The remainder of the

1138
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:23,360
Speaker 2: world just disappears and you know you are completely in

1139
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:26,200
Speaker 2: the moment, and in that respect, it's a very mindful

1140
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:28,839
Speaker 2: sort of state to be in and you are one

1141
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:32,520
Speaker 2: hundred percent focused, and it's addictive. I found it quite addictive,

1142
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:36,439
Speaker 2: that rush of being in those high pressure environments using

1143
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:39,719
Speaker 2: your skills at the point of end from a medical perspective,

1144
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:43,479
Speaker 2: for me, was the most professionally satisfying thing I've done

1145
00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:46,600
Speaker 2: to date. But with that comes that constant activation of

1146
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:50,400
Speaker 2: all your stress hormones and you recalibrate to that hyper alert,

1147
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:53,960
Speaker 2: hyper anxious state and it's like reving a car engine

1148
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:57,840
Speaker 2: at five thousand revs constantly. It's got to break down eventually.

1149
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:00,960
Speaker 2: But yeah, as Ben said, I think it's great to

1150
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:03,320
Speaker 2: have had those experiences, and then it's just a matter

1151
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:06,359
Speaker 2: of I think, as you move on realizing that you

1152
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:08,320
Speaker 2: can't get back there, and you probably don't want to

1153
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:11,399
Speaker 2: get back there because there's no future in that.

1154
00:56:11,719 --> 00:56:12,279
Speaker 5: Well for me.

1155
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:16,080
Speaker 2: Personally as a dad and a husband, it's unsustainable. But

1156
00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:18,440
Speaker 2: then it's a matter of what can I do that's

1157
00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:22,120
Speaker 2: you know, age and family appropriate to replace some of

1158
00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:25,640
Speaker 2: that professional satisfaction without that same kind of toxic stress

1159
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:26,080
Speaker 2: on the body.

1160
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:30,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's an awesome movie called The Old Angry Shot.

1161
00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:31,279
Speaker 5: I don't know if you've seen.

1162
00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:33,799
Speaker 2: It's Grant Kennedy and Bryan Brown that it's about the

1163
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:36,279
Speaker 2: essays in Vietnam and it's a real cult sort of

1164
00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:39,080
Speaker 2: film and the final scene that it's this story of

1165
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:41,400
Speaker 2: this patrol in Vietnam is says patrol, and they go

1166
00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:44,239
Speaker 2: through all these things and then they gets injured and

1167
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:46,759
Speaker 2: all this profound life changing things and they come back

1168
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:47,520
Speaker 2: to Australia.

1169
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:50,520
Speaker 5: The final scene is then going through a beer and.

1170
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:53,919
Speaker 2: They just had this enormous life changing experience and they

1171
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:56,719
Speaker 2: get into the pub and and you've brought's just back

1172
00:56:56,760 --> 00:56:57,320
Speaker 2: in Vietnam.

1173
00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:01,719
Speaker 5: Yeah, how was it? It's all right, it's rather Thant

1174
00:57:01,719 --> 00:57:02,080
Speaker 5: moves on.

1175
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:05,560
Speaker 2: And I had actually a really similar experience coming back

1176
00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:08,279
Speaker 2: from my first trip in Afghanistan. I just got back,

1177
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:11,480
Speaker 2: had no one sort of greeted me, you know, I

1178
00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:13,759
Speaker 2: would just sort of sort of wandered off and went

1179
00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:16,840
Speaker 2: to the Ocean Beach Hotel and caught up with a

1180
00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:20,560
Speaker 2: friend randomly and she said, oh, you know, where have

1181
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:22,360
Speaker 2: you been. I haven't seen you around and said, I've

1182
00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:24,280
Speaker 2: just been out Afghanistan, and like, you know, I had

1183
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:28,040
Speaker 2: had this profound life changing, first real war type experience

1184
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:29,800
Speaker 2: and she said, oh yeah, yeah.

1185
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:29,960
Speaker 5: What was that?

1186
00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:35,080
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, she's okay, and then just nder this other conversation.

1187
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:38,600
Speaker 2: It was just it was beautiful in that, you know,

1188
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:42,160
Speaker 2: this was everything and nothing, you know, it was massive

1189
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:42,560
Speaker 2: thing for me.

1190
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:45,640
Speaker 5: But the world keeps going on and that was wonderful.

1191
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:47,760
Speaker 2: But I think that sort of set that calibration in

1192
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:49,680
Speaker 2: terms of the stuff you're talking about.

1193
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:52,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's nowhere near the same. But we

1194
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:56,080
Speaker 1: spent a month in Rwanda, working in rural Rwanda, so

1195
00:57:56,160 --> 00:57:58,840
Speaker 1: no running water, no anything, working at school, and we

1196
00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:01,680
Speaker 1: did a lot of work with of the genocide, and

1197
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:03,640
Speaker 1: even in that at that time, I was still a

1198
00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:06,120
Speaker 1: lawyer and I really wanted to go into one of

1199
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:11,280
Speaker 1: the tribunals or some kind of international conflict war area.

1200
00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:15,520
Speaker 1: And I actually hated coming back home, like it really

1201
00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:17,680
Speaker 1: and I wasn't even even in a conflict zone. But

1202
00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:21,120
Speaker 1: the simplicity of their happiness that was my first big

1203
00:58:21,160 --> 00:58:23,680
Speaker 1: separation between happiness and success. I came back to an

1204
00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:27,440
Speaker 1: incredibly successful life and career and could not be okay

1205
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:30,360
Speaker 1: with it for months. I was so unsettled. I had

1206
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:33,720
Speaker 1: loved that just simplicity of waking up and appreciating nature

1207
00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:36,160
Speaker 1: and singing and only focusing on in the next minute.

1208
00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:40,360
Speaker 1: But I also think I learned there that when people

1209
00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:42,959
Speaker 1: say listen to your body, I agree, obviously it tells

1210
00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:46,120
Speaker 1: you lots of things. It's very clever, but it doesn't

1211
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:50,520
Speaker 1: make a take account of adrenaline, because adrenaline tells your

1212
00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:54,080
Speaker 1: body this feels great when it's actually most of the

1213
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:55,520
Speaker 1: time not great for you.

1214
00:58:55,880 --> 00:58:56,800
Speaker 3: It's necessary.

1215
00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:00,200
Speaker 1: But sometimes burning the candle at both ends and not

1216
00:59:00,200 --> 00:59:02,880
Speaker 1: sleeping feels great. Sometimes my body says, keep doing this,

1217
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:05,800
Speaker 1: this is amazing. But it's something I think we do

1218
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:08,520
Speaker 1: need to watch out for that. Your body sometimes likes

1219
00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:11,120
Speaker 1: things and thrives on things that it can't sustain and

1220
00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:13,120
Speaker 1: that aren't maybe great for it.

1221
00:59:13,360 --> 00:59:15,560
Speaker 5: I've got to pull you up there, sharing you well,

1222
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:18,160
Speaker 5: oh yes, sorry.

1223
00:59:18,120 --> 00:59:20,840
Speaker 2: It's nothing like you. That that comparison thing. You know,

1224
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:23,040
Speaker 2: We've all got to stop doing that. That's exactly like

1225
00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:27,320
Speaker 2: our experience. Sorry, yeah, I mean going to regional wander

1226
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:29,680
Speaker 2: is huge. It's huge, and it's it's so abnormal, and

1227
00:59:29,720 --> 00:59:32,880
Speaker 2: it gives you this new perspective and it is exactly

1228
00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:37,040
Speaker 2: like us going off and experiencing things in our world.

1229
00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:38,440
Speaker 4: So yeah, don't do that.

1230
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:45,160
Speaker 1: I know, love it. Thank you so very last couple

1231
00:59:45,160 --> 00:59:47,120
Speaker 1: of questions. The last section, as I mentioned, is all

1232
00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:50,800
Speaker 1: about play and what you do to help yourself detach

1233
00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:53,240
Speaker 1: and get a brain escape, and just I describe them

1234
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:54,960
Speaker 1: as those activities that make you forget what time it

1235
00:59:55,040 --> 00:59:57,960
Speaker 1: is when you go back to that mindful focus, but

1236
00:59:58,040 --> 01:00:00,760
Speaker 1: not for a professional outcome, not for like winning or

1237
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:04,040
Speaker 1: getting better or self development. And the example I use

1238
01:00:04,120 --> 01:00:07,400
Speaker 1: is I spent a really long time going for walks

1239
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:10,000
Speaker 1: with my dog but listening to a finance podcast, or

1240
01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:12,040
Speaker 1: I'd have a bath and I'd try and learn a language,

1241
01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:15,760
Speaker 1: like I just wasn't letting myself enjoy for the sake

1242
01:00:15,800 --> 01:00:21,320
Speaker 1: of enjoyment. So what do you guys do other than rollerblading? Too?

1243
01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:23,080
Speaker 4: Honest?

1244
01:00:23,280 --> 01:00:25,480
Speaker 5: I would love to crack out the roller blades again.

1245
01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:28,160
Speaker 4: I can't now you've gone and ruined it for me. Yeah,

1246
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:33,480
Speaker 4: I have to wear a mask. We're wearing masks anyway,

1247
01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:35,560
Speaker 4: aren't we. So might be the perfect time.

1248
01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:38,160
Speaker 3: You should do it. I'm going to see you rolling.

1249
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:42,480
Speaker 2: Over like, oh, it's more socially acceptable. I've cracked out

1250
01:00:42,480 --> 01:00:44,680
Speaker 2: the skateboard again with my eight year old and.

1251
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:47,880
Speaker 3: So Paris twenty twenty four. Here we go.

1252
01:00:48,120 --> 01:00:50,640
Speaker 2: No, No, there'll be none of that. Yeah, maybe my son.

1253
01:00:50,680 --> 01:00:53,800
Speaker 2: I'm not sure I enjoy skateboarding. I mean anything that

1254
01:00:54,680 --> 01:00:57,080
Speaker 2: gets into that flow state like you're talking about, and

1255
01:00:57,320 --> 01:00:58,840
Speaker 2: the beauty of that is you don't need to be

1256
01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:00,640
Speaker 2: good at it, you just need to be you're operating

1257
01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:03,960
Speaker 2: at the level of your capability. And so I've started

1258
01:01:03,960 --> 01:01:06,840
Speaker 2: playing the piano a little bit. I love woodworking. I'm

1259
01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:11,560
Speaker 2: shit at it, but I've built a home bar in

1260
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:13,840
Speaker 2: my man cave and I'm constantly working on that and

1261
01:01:14,040 --> 01:01:16,760
Speaker 2: there's no right angles and nothing quite lines up, and

1262
01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:20,400
Speaker 2: it's all sort of rusty the term I'm using. But

1263
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:24,880
Speaker 2: I just find that immensely satisfying. And when I'm building something,

1264
01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:26,920
Speaker 2: doing something with my hands, when I'm skating with my

1265
01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:29,520
Speaker 2: little guy, when I'm trying to learn something on the piano,

1266
01:01:29,960 --> 01:01:32,480
Speaker 2: that's for me that turns off that sort of monkey

1267
01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:34,040
Speaker 2: mind that the fault mode network.

1268
01:01:34,080 --> 01:01:36,800
Speaker 4: And I do love to meditate. I love to lie in.

1269
01:01:36,760 --> 01:01:40,400
Speaker 2: Ice baths these days. I find that just outstanding. In

1270
01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:42,640
Speaker 2: other way, it's hard to think of anything else when

1271
01:01:42,640 --> 01:01:45,040
Speaker 2: you're in an ice bath. You're just focused on that moment.

1272
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:47,440
Speaker 2: And yeah, so there's a whole range of things that

1273
01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:50,720
Speaker 2: don't need to be those high adrenaline type things to

1274
01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:53,920
Speaker 2: get into that flow state. It's just something challenging yourself.

1275
01:01:53,960 --> 01:01:56,400
Speaker 2: And yeah, maybe I will crack out the roller blades again.

1276
01:01:58,240 --> 01:01:59,960
Speaker 1: I love that you mentioned you don't need to be

1277
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:03,000
Speaker 1: good at it, because I think that suddenly turns like

1278
01:02:03,080 --> 01:02:05,600
Speaker 1: we turn all our hobbies into jobbies, Like I get

1279
01:02:05,720 --> 01:02:07,600
Speaker 1: so like, oh I like this, so I better be

1280
01:02:07,640 --> 01:02:09,360
Speaker 1: professional letter like I better go to Paris in twenty

1281
01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:11,480
Speaker 1: three four because I love skateboarding and it's nice to

1282
01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:13,200
Speaker 1: just let your sop off the hook, like it has

1283
01:02:13,240 --> 01:02:15,960
Speaker 1: to be something that you're not good at, because that's amazing.

1284
01:02:16,600 --> 01:02:18,280
Speaker 1: And I love the ice bath thing too. We had

1285
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:22,640
Speaker 1: wim Half on the show last year. He screamed the

1286
01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:25,280
Speaker 1: whole episode. He screamed, he was just so excited about life.

1287
01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:28,880
Speaker 1: How are you good? Like how many kids?

1288
01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:29,120
Speaker 4: You have?

1289
01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:33,880
Speaker 3: Three kids? Like it just yells everything so invigorating.

1290
01:02:35,600 --> 01:02:37,280
Speaker 5: I'm a big wim Hoff fan.

1291
01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:40,400
Speaker 2: I love the breathing and I love him a friend,

1292
01:02:40,400 --> 01:02:43,160
Speaker 2: and I have downloaded the same version of him doing

1293
01:02:43,160 --> 01:02:44,480
Speaker 2: the guide ever breathing.

1294
01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:49,040
Speaker 5: And you know, just his his little comic bee this moment.

1295
01:02:48,920 --> 01:02:51,040
Speaker 2: And you know we will say that to each other

1296
01:02:51,600 --> 01:02:54,720
Speaker 2: in the in the funny Dutch chessh like it's it's

1297
01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:56,640
Speaker 2: so it's so much goodness.

1298
01:02:56,920 --> 01:03:00,720
Speaker 5: But for me, my happy place is drawing. I've come

1299
01:03:00,760 --> 01:03:01,360
Speaker 5: to it late.

1300
01:03:01,880 --> 01:03:05,840
Speaker 2: Same thing learning a new still I think is like

1301
01:03:06,080 --> 01:03:07,320
Speaker 2: cool and humbling and.

1302
01:03:07,280 --> 01:03:08,160
Speaker 5: All that sort of stuff.

1303
01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:13,880
Speaker 2: But ge that that is just so meditative and so restorative,

1304
01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:16,840
Speaker 2: you know. And I kind of like the fact that

1305
01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:19,560
Speaker 2: at the end you've got something like Dan's Bar. You know,

1306
01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:22,520
Speaker 2: there's there's a tangible sort of artifact at the end,

1307
01:03:22,640 --> 01:03:25,400
Speaker 2: and you know, maybe it's not the it's definitely not

1308
01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:28,840
Speaker 2: the best, you know, but it's something that's.

1309
01:03:29,120 --> 01:03:32,200
Speaker 5: Kind of a byproduct of your kind of flow state.

1310
01:03:32,520 --> 01:03:35,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, amazing, And it's interesting that they're very tactile things

1311
01:03:35,760 --> 01:03:39,360
Speaker 1: that you can't be on your phone or multitasking at

1312
01:03:39,360 --> 01:03:42,560
Speaker 1: the same time, it's like precludes that opportunity, which is

1313
01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:46,320
Speaker 1: generally what I gravitate towards. What about Like, do you

1314
01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:48,680
Speaker 1: guys ever watch Netflix? Do you actually you know those

1315
01:03:48,680 --> 01:03:50,080
Speaker 1: people who are like I don't even have a TV?

1316
01:03:50,200 --> 01:03:54,040
Speaker 1: Do you watch stupid shows? Like do you do anything

1317
01:03:54,080 --> 01:03:54,400
Speaker 1: like that?

1318
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:57,760
Speaker 2: Yeah? We've just my wife and I've just come off

1319
01:03:57,800 --> 01:04:01,200
Speaker 2: the back of like it wasn't really binging, you know,

1320
01:04:01,280 --> 01:04:03,920
Speaker 2: we sort of limited to an episode or to Parks

1321
01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:07,800
Speaker 2: and rec I love Amy Poehler and I mean not

1322
01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:11,000
Speaker 2: in that but that kind of human So yeah, definitely,

1323
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:13,480
Speaker 2: I was going to say guilty pleasure, not even guilty, but.

1324
01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:14,800
Speaker 3: It's just a pleasure.

1325
01:04:15,160 --> 01:04:16,040
Speaker 5: It's just a pleasure.

1326
01:04:18,640 --> 01:04:20,959
Speaker 4: Yeah, certainly the same. I don't watch a lot of TV.

1327
01:04:21,000 --> 01:04:22,800
Speaker 2: We don't have it on a lot in our house,

1328
01:04:22,840 --> 01:04:26,160
Speaker 2: and I'll generally prefer to do other things, but yeah

1329
01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:26,400
Speaker 2: I do.

1330
01:04:26,800 --> 01:04:28,160
Speaker 5: I dance to one of these guys.

1331
01:04:28,520 --> 01:04:31,400
Speaker 3: He's got a life. Wow, get off the show.

1332
01:04:34,680 --> 01:04:34,919
Speaker 4: Wrong?

1333
01:04:40,040 --> 01:04:40,600
Speaker 3: Oh my god.

1334
01:04:40,680 --> 01:04:43,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, that people, especially from Wellness, We're like, we didn't

1335
01:04:43,320 --> 01:04:45,880
Speaker 1: have a TV in our home, and I'm like, I admire.

1336
01:04:45,560 --> 01:04:46,480
Speaker 3: That so much.

1337
01:04:46,960 --> 01:04:49,960
Speaker 1: You are enlightened human being. But I am binging the

1338
01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:54,040
Speaker 1: shit out of a seven series at once, Like, what

1339
01:04:54,280 --> 01:04:56,880
Speaker 1: are there any military shows that you've seen that you're like,

1340
01:04:57,160 --> 01:05:00,840
Speaker 1: that's the closest representation. I always ask this question because

1341
01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:02,600
Speaker 1: I think I want to rewatch it. I've watched them

1342
01:05:02,600 --> 01:05:04,280
Speaker 1: all like eighty five thousand times for me.

1343
01:05:04,760 --> 01:05:07,080
Speaker 5: Actually, ID angry shot the one I mentioned before. It

1344
01:05:07,200 --> 01:05:08,120
Speaker 5: is better to get.

1345
01:05:08,160 --> 01:05:11,760
Speaker 2: In terms of not glamorizing and capturing the mess and

1346
01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:13,360
Speaker 2: the madship and all that sort of stuff.

1347
01:05:13,720 --> 01:05:15,280
Speaker 5: I loved Zero Dark.

1348
01:05:15,480 --> 01:05:16,880
Speaker 4: It's just going to say the same thing.

1349
01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:21,000
Speaker 2: You know, Yes, this is the ubl Ray, but there's

1350
01:05:21,000 --> 01:05:23,320
Speaker 2: about five seconds of gun play in the whole movie,

1351
01:05:23,440 --> 01:05:26,840
Speaker 2: and that to me is the whole certainly my experience

1352
01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:29,919
Speaker 2: with the targeting game, that it is about that sort

1353
01:05:29,960 --> 01:05:32,960
Speaker 2: of preparation, and it's all those unsung heroes that are

1354
01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:36,120
Speaker 2: doing the intelligence analysis and the imagery and the human

1355
01:05:36,280 --> 01:05:40,440
Speaker 2: mesdients and all of this sort of fusion, and it's

1356
01:05:40,600 --> 01:05:43,440
Speaker 2: one step forward, two steps back. There's uncertainty, there's a

1357
01:05:43,560 --> 01:05:47,080
Speaker 2: ton of risk in improving these things, and there's you know,

1358
01:05:47,160 --> 01:05:50,400
Speaker 2: that that kind of political layer to it that to

1359
01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:53,480
Speaker 2: me really encapsulated I guess a lot of the contemporary

1360
01:05:53,480 --> 01:05:57,120
Speaker 2: special ops experience, and you know, it finishes with super

1361
01:05:57,120 --> 01:06:01,480
Speaker 2: cool court mvgs and playbooks and and all that sort

1362
01:06:01,520 --> 01:06:04,320
Speaker 2: of stuff, but ninety five percent of it is not.

1363
01:06:04,480 --> 01:06:07,720
Speaker 2: It's that frustrating sort of slog hard work builder. I

1364
01:06:07,800 --> 01:06:10,760
Speaker 2: think also the way they depict that final raid was

1365
01:06:11,480 --> 01:06:14,320
Speaker 2: awesome in that it wasn't that typical explosive everything goes

1366
01:06:14,360 --> 01:06:17,120
Speaker 2: exactly to plan. It was confusing, and there was engagements,

1367
01:06:17,120 --> 01:06:19,120
Speaker 2: and there was pauses, and there was you know, what's

1368
01:06:19,160 --> 01:06:22,240
Speaker 2: going on here, and so it was sort of I've

1369
01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:24,200
Speaker 2: said that exact same thing a number of times when

1370
01:06:24,240 --> 01:06:27,120
Speaker 2: people have said you know what looks most like real.

1371
01:06:27,240 --> 01:06:29,760
Speaker 2: I think that movie probably portrays it the best.

1372
01:06:29,880 --> 01:06:31,640
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you guys said that, because I love

1373
01:06:31,680 --> 01:06:35,360
Speaker 1: that movie so much. But I noticed that, unlike most

1374
01:06:35,360 --> 01:06:40,240
Speaker 1: Hollywood blockbusters, there's no music in the raid. It's very quiet, yeah,

1375
01:06:40,480 --> 01:06:44,160
Speaker 1: which makes your senses heightened to them breathing and what

1376
01:06:44,480 --> 01:06:47,960
Speaker 1: you would imagine they would actually hear, which is nothing

1377
01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:51,680
Speaker 1: just the wind or each other's voices, just saying numbers

1378
01:06:51,760 --> 01:06:55,200
Speaker 1: and codes like It was just so interesting because usually

1379
01:06:55,240 --> 01:06:57,680
Speaker 1: that wouldn't fly in a Hollywood movie because our attention

1380
01:06:57,760 --> 01:06:58,560
Speaker 1: span is so short.

1381
01:06:58,600 --> 01:07:01,160
Speaker 3: We'd need like color and black hawks all the way.

1382
01:07:01,200 --> 01:07:03,480
Speaker 1: But it was dead quiet for like twenty five minutes,

1383
01:07:03,480 --> 01:07:05,280
Speaker 1: which I liked about the movie.

1384
01:07:05,320 --> 01:07:06,800
Speaker 3: I thought it was really great.

1385
01:07:06,960 --> 01:07:09,880
Speaker 2: Wells and I have had this ongoing discussion the fact

1386
01:07:09,880 --> 01:07:13,280
Speaker 2: that we did need soundtracks, Like you know that our

1387
01:07:13,480 --> 01:07:15,800
Speaker 2: actual raids in Afghanistan would have been so much cooler

1388
01:07:15,840 --> 01:07:20,200
Speaker 2: if we had all this track, And unfortunately, the sort

1389
01:07:20,200 --> 01:07:22,080
Speaker 2: of upshot of that is it would probably be more

1390
01:07:22,120 --> 01:07:24,080
Speaker 2: like the Benny Hill than music.

1391
01:07:25,920 --> 01:07:26,520
Speaker 5: We went through.

1392
01:07:26,800 --> 01:07:29,240
Speaker 2: I think the one I wanted was the immigrant song

1393
01:07:29,320 --> 01:07:34,320
Speaker 2: by led Zeppelin, Come out of the Dust with the

1394
01:07:34,360 --> 01:07:37,960
Speaker 2: big biking will cry and dumping guitar, Like, yeah.

1395
01:07:38,040 --> 01:07:39,919
Speaker 3: You should be able to choose your own song as well.

1396
01:07:39,960 --> 01:07:42,160
Speaker 1: That just comes on every time you like come out

1397
01:07:42,160 --> 01:07:51,600
Speaker 1: of a cupboard or something.

1398
01:07:47,600 --> 01:07:49,200
Speaker 3: When you come out on your rollerblades.

1399
01:07:49,320 --> 01:07:57,360
Speaker 1: Hey, I lived in Paris, I went to UNI.

1400
01:07:57,400 --> 01:07:58,480
Speaker 3: It sounds po for a year.

1401
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:01,680
Speaker 1: And the cops there's it's a quarter called the Murray,

1402
01:08:01,720 --> 01:08:05,360
Speaker 1: which is like a very flamboyant artie, you know, and

1403
01:08:05,400 --> 01:08:09,360
Speaker 1: the cops only in that suburb roller blade in the

1404
01:08:09,400 --> 01:08:12,560
Speaker 1: tightest uniforms, but they're legitimate police on roll blades.

1405
01:08:12,560 --> 01:08:14,560
Speaker 3: I'm like, what if they go on the lawn.

1406
01:08:16,160 --> 01:08:16,840
Speaker 5: Downstairs.

1407
01:08:17,520 --> 01:08:19,360
Speaker 2: It's funny you say that because when we're having that

1408
01:08:19,439 --> 01:08:22,120
Speaker 2: rollerblade discussion, and I must admit I have not thought

1409
01:08:22,160 --> 01:08:28,160
Speaker 2: about roller blades. But then I realized, the only adult

1410
01:08:28,320 --> 01:08:32,000
Speaker 2: I've seen rollerblading in the last about that time.

1411
01:08:31,920 --> 01:08:34,479
Speaker 5: Is a French to that Lucy. His kids are at

1412
01:08:34,520 --> 01:08:34,880
Speaker 5: our school.

1413
01:08:35,760 --> 01:08:36,479
Speaker 3: Cops. There you go.

1414
01:08:37,120 --> 01:08:41,080
Speaker 5: It could be an ex cop, but he genuinely looks

1415
01:08:41,120 --> 01:08:43,479
Speaker 5: like he's loving it. It kind of looks fun. But

1416
01:08:43,640 --> 01:08:45,080
Speaker 5: I think you have to be French to get away

1417
01:08:45,080 --> 01:08:45,280
Speaker 5: with it.

1418
01:08:45,560 --> 01:08:47,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe I think you guys can get away, but

1419
01:08:47,640 --> 01:08:50,960
Speaker 1: That's the other thing. It's so interesting when people talk

1420
01:08:50,960 --> 01:08:52,519
Speaker 1: about fear of failure all the time. We talk about

1421
01:08:52,520 --> 01:08:54,840
Speaker 1: a lot on their show, imposter syndrome, blah blah blah.

1422
01:08:55,040 --> 01:08:57,760
Speaker 1: I always say, if I told you no one would

1423
01:08:57,760 --> 01:09:00,720
Speaker 1: ever know that you failed, would you care about failing? No?

1424
01:09:01,400 --> 01:09:03,879
Speaker 1: Their worth isn't questioned if they fail at something in private,

1425
01:09:04,520 --> 01:09:06,880
Speaker 1: which is the same as like, once you give yourself

1426
01:09:06,880 --> 01:09:09,880
Speaker 1: permission to look like a complete idiot, you.

1427
01:09:09,880 --> 01:09:11,360
Speaker 3: Enjoy life so much more.

1428
01:09:11,680 --> 01:09:13,679
Speaker 1: Just own that you're a dag, and then you don't

1429
01:09:13,680 --> 01:09:15,400
Speaker 1: care what your plata is because you don't care that

1430
01:09:15,439 --> 01:09:16,320
Speaker 1: you look like an idiot.

1431
01:09:16,680 --> 01:09:18,040
Speaker 3: I feel so much more fun.

1432
01:09:18,400 --> 01:09:21,720
Speaker 2: And paradoxically, you look less like an idiot when you're

1433
01:09:21,760 --> 01:09:24,960
Speaker 2: able to own it and not pretend you're just cool.

1434
01:09:25,560 --> 01:09:27,360
Speaker 5: You know, like, yeah, it's funny totally.

1435
01:09:28,080 --> 01:09:30,000
Speaker 1: When you get rid of the dreadlocks and you drop

1436
01:09:30,040 --> 01:09:32,479
Speaker 1: your pant length a little bit, you're just a whole

1437
01:09:32,520 --> 01:09:33,040
Speaker 1: new person.

1438
01:09:36,920 --> 01:09:45,400
Speaker 2: It come back, ironically, photos of I've got a great

1439
01:09:45,439 --> 01:09:48,559
Speaker 2: one of you standing with your back facing each other

1440
01:09:48,600 --> 01:09:51,040
Speaker 2: at one of your parades and you're in you know,

1441
01:09:51,080 --> 01:09:51,719
Speaker 2: you're in uniform.

1442
01:09:51,760 --> 01:09:54,000
Speaker 5: You're high and tight down at RMC or it must

1443
01:09:54,040 --> 01:09:54,519
Speaker 5: be an RMC.

1444
01:09:54,640 --> 01:09:56,040
Speaker 3: I think iron.

1445
01:09:56,520 --> 01:10:00,880
Speaker 2: Haircut wise, and I've got this shoulder length just horrid

1446
01:10:01,040 --> 01:10:03,840
Speaker 2: looking Raddy hair. It's not in Dreads at the time,

1447
01:10:03,880 --> 01:10:06,400
Speaker 2: but it's shoulder lengthy earrings in I've got these gaudy

1448
01:10:06,560 --> 01:10:08,280
Speaker 2: white sonnies and yeah, it's good.

1449
01:10:08,400 --> 01:10:09,639
Speaker 4: It's a good contrast of.

1450
01:10:10,000 --> 01:10:12,599
Speaker 1: Probably fake Oakley's. Remember those fake oakleues.

1451
01:10:15,200 --> 01:10:16,719
Speaker 3: Yeah. Nice.

1452
01:10:17,040 --> 01:10:18,759
Speaker 1: You got to unearth some of these for the episode.

1453
01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:21,360
Speaker 1: I'm not going to use your like proper fancy headshots.

1454
01:10:21,400 --> 01:10:23,479
Speaker 1: They're going to be all old, cringe worthy photos just

1455
01:10:23,520 --> 01:10:28,640
Speaker 1: for the dad. Second last question, which I think you

1456
01:10:28,640 --> 01:10:32,080
Speaker 1: should answer for each other, what are the most weird

1457
01:10:32,280 --> 01:10:34,680
Speaker 1: quirky things about you that don't normally come up in

1458
01:10:34,720 --> 01:10:36,880
Speaker 1: conversation and that you didn't let slip in the book?

1459
01:10:37,360 --> 01:10:38,280
Speaker 3: They're more embarrassing.

1460
01:10:38,320 --> 01:10:39,679
Speaker 4: The better tread lightly here.

1461
01:10:41,360 --> 01:10:45,679
Speaker 2: There's probably embarrassing stuff from our youth that probably doesn't

1462
01:10:45,720 --> 01:10:47,000
Speaker 2: need to be dredged.

1463
01:10:46,720 --> 01:10:49,439
Speaker 3: Up, or it absolutely does.

1464
01:10:50,560 --> 01:10:52,640
Speaker 1: This is the best part of the whole episode, the

1465
01:10:52,720 --> 01:10:55,720
Speaker 1: random ship that comes out when you just dig a

1466
01:10:55,720 --> 01:10:56,360
Speaker 1: little deeper.

1467
01:10:56,960 --> 01:11:02,599
Speaker 2: I think Dan's his story ends well, but I think

1468
01:11:02,720 --> 01:11:06,200
Speaker 2: Dan's love life, the ploduc of his love life, has

1469
01:11:06,280 --> 01:11:12,200
Speaker 2: been quite interesting, as fully declare. It started off with

1470
01:11:12,240 --> 01:11:14,720
Speaker 2: me looking very jealously at the fact that that A,

1471
01:11:15,520 --> 01:11:17,479
Speaker 2: I think you jumped before you got expelled, but you

1472
01:11:17,800 --> 01:11:20,479
Speaker 2: basically left under a bit of a cloud from our boys'

1473
01:11:20,520 --> 01:11:24,160
Speaker 2: school and went to a co ed school and discovered

1474
01:11:24,160 --> 01:11:26,800
Speaker 2: that you had a bit of game and tore it

1475
01:11:26,880 --> 01:11:31,880
Speaker 2: up ahead of you and still hopeless and so yeah,

1476
01:11:31,920 --> 01:11:35,160
Speaker 2: and it's paradoxical, Sarah, because this was the role blading phase.

1477
01:11:37,320 --> 01:11:39,600
Speaker 2: It seems that you were getting a lot of girlfriends

1478
01:11:39,800 --> 01:11:42,720
Speaker 2: while you were dreadlocked roller blading through something in that.

1479
01:11:42,760 --> 01:11:44,400
Speaker 2: I think the French get a lot of girlfriends too.

1480
01:11:44,600 --> 01:11:46,600
Speaker 2: There's a there's a connection there French.

1481
01:11:46,320 --> 01:11:50,439
Speaker 3: And sensitive new age guy. That's what we all want.

1482
01:11:50,560 --> 01:11:54,200
Speaker 2: When immediately they're Sarah to a shoplifting incident when we

1483
01:11:54,200 --> 01:11:54,799
Speaker 2: were in our.

1484
01:11:54,680 --> 01:11:55,479
Speaker 4: Teens, And.

1485
01:11:59,600 --> 01:12:01,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, I've forgotten up.

1486
01:12:01,800 --> 01:12:05,120
Speaker 2: At Ben's wedding, actually I reckon just his early forays

1487
01:12:05,160 --> 01:12:07,000
Speaker 2: into clandestine operations that.

1488
01:12:07,000 --> 01:12:09,639
Speaker 5: Were not showing.

1489
01:12:09,800 --> 01:12:14,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was specially school more than special ops. And yes,

1490
01:12:14,760 --> 01:12:17,400
Speaker 2: so there was I think it may have been a

1491
01:12:17,439 --> 01:12:19,479
Speaker 2: contest if I'm remembering this correctly.

1492
01:12:19,560 --> 01:12:21,040
Speaker 4: Ben Ben had to mate his age.

1493
01:12:21,080 --> 01:12:24,320
Speaker 2: I had to mate this mate's brother was was my agent,

1494
01:12:24,760 --> 01:12:27,679
Speaker 2: and we'd gone in to see what we could liberate

1495
01:12:27,720 --> 01:12:30,400
Speaker 2: from this shop. And anyway, well, I think the only

1496
01:12:30,439 --> 01:12:32,679
Speaker 2: reason me and my mate didn't get busted is because

1497
01:12:32,680 --> 01:12:35,479
Speaker 2: Ben and his mate were just so overt and had

1498
01:12:35,479 --> 01:12:39,080
Speaker 2: caught the attention of the store detective first. And from

1499
01:12:39,080 --> 01:12:41,759
Speaker 2: a memory, you got busted with a dozen golf balls,

1500
01:12:41,760 --> 01:12:49,280
Speaker 2: a Gumby doll and maybe distraates brothers something along those lines.

1501
01:12:49,720 --> 01:12:50,400
Speaker 5: I would like.

1502
01:12:50,400 --> 01:12:53,000
Speaker 2: It to have been brothers in arms, because at least

1503
01:12:53,000 --> 01:12:54,000
Speaker 2: that it gives some credibility.

1504
01:12:54,080 --> 01:12:56,160
Speaker 5: No, it was a dozen golf balls and a company.

1505
01:12:57,000 --> 01:13:02,280
Speaker 5: So two things I love. What are you doing with

1506
01:13:02,360 --> 01:13:04,600
Speaker 5: a dozen golf called? I didn't play golf.

1507
01:13:04,360 --> 01:13:08,599
Speaker 2: And these are stupid things to steal. And the second

1508
01:13:08,600 --> 01:13:10,519
Speaker 2: thing is they're really all good.

1509
01:13:10,360 --> 01:13:11,040
Speaker 5: Things to steal.

1510
01:13:11,080 --> 01:13:13,960
Speaker 2: Like a dozen golf was in a box and this

1511
01:13:14,120 --> 01:13:20,000
Speaker 2: is two foot Gumby doll.

1512
01:13:20,120 --> 01:13:23,080
Speaker 4: This so the cops, the cops were involved. He's busted

1513
01:13:23,120 --> 01:13:25,599
Speaker 4: that the parents have got to be involved. So the

1514
01:13:25,640 --> 01:13:28,400
Speaker 4: next step here to now let's you know, why not

1515
01:13:28,479 --> 01:13:31,160
Speaker 4: double down. So Ben had a bike which was our

1516
01:13:31,160 --> 01:13:34,000
Speaker 4: old man's old bike that he inherited and being done up,

1517
01:13:34,040 --> 01:13:35,400
Speaker 4: he'd get ridden to the shops.

1518
01:13:36,280 --> 01:13:39,920
Speaker 2: So they to justify this theft, they make up this

1519
01:13:40,000 --> 01:13:42,799
Speaker 2: cover story that they'd gone out to get their bikes

1520
01:13:42,880 --> 01:13:46,160
Speaker 2: before all the shoplifting had occurred. Someone had their bike

1521
01:13:46,280 --> 01:13:47,760
Speaker 2: and said, mate, you are going to go in and

1522
01:13:47,800 --> 01:13:51,200
Speaker 2: steal me some stuff otherwise not getting your bike back,

1523
01:13:51,240 --> 01:13:53,320
Speaker 2: and so this was the cover story.

1524
01:13:53,720 --> 01:13:54,840
Speaker 4: Get down the cops station.

1525
01:13:55,040 --> 01:13:57,479
Speaker 2: But the two of them get split up and your

1526
01:13:57,479 --> 01:14:03,120
Speaker 2: mate things like a canary. If I'm remating, I think

1527
01:14:03,200 --> 01:14:05,920
Speaker 2: I think he had not done resistance to interrogation, or

1528
01:14:05,960 --> 01:14:09,000
Speaker 2: maybe neither of you had those skills at the time.

1529
01:14:09,080 --> 01:14:12,640
Speaker 2: And and there was different stories that came came apart.

1530
01:14:13,040 --> 01:14:15,320
Speaker 4: It was that, but no, let me finish.

1531
01:14:15,400 --> 01:14:17,840
Speaker 2: You had aitch good bike in the local lake to

1532
01:14:17,880 --> 01:14:19,960
Speaker 2: get rid of it, and so the story.

1533
01:14:19,760 --> 01:14:23,320
Speaker 4: Went, you're not mean to blog.

1534
01:14:23,400 --> 01:14:27,240
Speaker 2: These things had been busted, had come back out, bike

1535
01:14:27,360 --> 01:14:28,920
Speaker 2: was gone, so need to get rid of bike. You

1536
01:14:29,080 --> 01:14:31,880
Speaker 2: threw the bike in the bloody lake and then went

1537
01:14:31,920 --> 01:14:35,960
Speaker 2: home and ran the story on the oldies brilliant.

1538
01:14:37,160 --> 01:14:43,920
Speaker 5: Because the album was so much tied. We wanted to

1539
01:14:45,160 --> 01:14:46,839
Speaker 5: commit to Yeah, it was ridiculous.

1540
01:14:46,920 --> 01:14:48,599
Speaker 3: Committed so committed a lot.

1541
01:14:48,680 --> 01:14:49,240
Speaker 5: It's funny.

1542
01:14:49,320 --> 01:14:52,160
Speaker 2: I think we both broke we had the breaking strength

1543
01:14:53,120 --> 01:14:54,200
Speaker 2: under interrogation.

1544
01:14:55,680 --> 01:14:57,760
Speaker 1: You only got busted because you tried to play your

1545
01:14:57,800 --> 01:15:03,400
Speaker 1: led Zeppelin music as you walked into the store behind you,

1546
01:15:03,520 --> 01:15:04,560
Speaker 1: like big explosion.

1547
01:15:07,720 --> 01:15:12,559
Speaker 2: It was thought experiment called the prisoner's dilemma, where you know,

1548
01:15:12,720 --> 01:15:16,719
Speaker 2: like you know the story, you know if you both admit,

1549
01:15:16,840 --> 01:15:18,360
Speaker 2: you get something if you're out on your mate.

1550
01:15:18,400 --> 01:15:21,479
Speaker 5: And yeah, I think we lived that prisoner's dilemma. We

1551
01:15:21,560 --> 01:15:23,920
Speaker 5: both went straight to write on your mate.

1552
01:15:24,439 --> 01:15:25,040
Speaker 3: Oh my god.

1553
01:15:25,080 --> 01:15:27,360
Speaker 1: So you don't have to be good at interrogation or

1554
01:15:27,360 --> 01:15:30,360
Speaker 1: your story or captivity or alibis or anything to be

1555
01:15:30,560 --> 01:15:31,840
Speaker 1: a special operations guy.

1556
01:15:31,960 --> 01:15:32,400
Speaker 3: That's great.

1557
01:15:32,439 --> 01:15:41,599
Speaker 4: Needn't hope is out there. Don't give up hope you

1558
01:15:41,600 --> 01:15:42,200
Speaker 4: could end up.

1559
01:15:49,400 --> 01:15:52,879
Speaker 3: Very last question, guys, what is your favorite quote?

1560
01:15:53,560 --> 01:15:55,720
Speaker 2: I got to go with It's not the Critical Accounts,

1561
01:15:55,960 --> 01:15:59,120
Speaker 2: so being the first line of the Theodore Roosevelt. I

1562
01:15:59,160 --> 01:16:01,439
Speaker 2: know it's it's been done to death, but that just

1563
01:16:01,960 --> 01:16:04,200
Speaker 2: really has resonated.

1564
01:16:03,680 --> 01:16:06,360
Speaker 4: With me, particularly for my adult life, just that trying to.

1565
01:16:06,360 --> 01:16:10,679
Speaker 2: Let go of that external perspective and like you said before, Sarah,

1566
01:16:10,800 --> 01:16:13,200
Speaker 2: just you know, owning it, going with it, doing what

1567
01:16:13,360 --> 01:16:16,000
Speaker 2: makes you feel happy. But you know you mentioned Harry

1568
01:16:16,080 --> 01:16:17,880
Speaker 2: loves the cave dive and people don't get that that's

1569
01:16:17,920 --> 01:16:19,400
Speaker 2: a weird thing to do. I don't get that, but

1570
01:16:19,439 --> 01:16:21,800
Speaker 2: I get Harry. He's a magic human being and he's

1571
01:16:21,840 --> 01:16:24,040
Speaker 2: just owned it. And like you said, that put him

1572
01:16:24,080 --> 01:16:27,479
Speaker 2: on the front page of national international newspapers. But yeah,

1573
01:16:27,520 --> 01:16:30,519
Speaker 2: that letting go of criticism and just doing what you

1574
01:16:30,600 --> 01:16:33,200
Speaker 2: truly believe in is aligned with your values and what

1575
01:16:33,240 --> 01:16:36,439
Speaker 2: you feel is going to make you happy, and not

1576
01:16:36,520 --> 01:16:38,640
Speaker 2: listening to the critics, I think is probably for me.

1577
01:16:38,720 --> 01:16:39,960
Speaker 4: That's the number one.

1578
01:16:40,040 --> 01:16:41,240
Speaker 3: That's such a good one for me.

1579
01:16:41,520 --> 01:16:43,559
Speaker 5: I mean, we spoke about it all throughout this episode.

1580
01:16:43,600 --> 01:16:44,719
Speaker 5: That always a look further.

1581
01:16:45,240 --> 01:16:48,640
Speaker 2: I mean it comes from that Flecker poem which the

1582
01:16:48,720 --> 01:16:52,439
Speaker 2: scene is a caravan of merchants heading in Biblical times

1583
01:16:52,479 --> 01:16:55,920
Speaker 2: on this treacherous journey, and the master of the caravans

1584
01:16:55,960 --> 01:16:59,280
Speaker 2: asking each of the merchants, you know, the spice merchants

1585
01:16:59,320 --> 01:17:02,240
Speaker 2: and the jeweler and the person with the rug and

1586
01:17:02,240 --> 01:17:04,559
Speaker 2: the embroideries, you know, how are you going? And what

1587
01:17:04,600 --> 01:17:07,880
Speaker 2: have you got to take to this destination? Samacant And

1588
01:17:07,960 --> 01:17:10,519
Speaker 2: it comes to this group of ragtag people and he goes,

1589
01:17:10,520 --> 01:17:12,960
Speaker 2: who are you in rags? And rotten shoes, you dirty

1590
01:17:13,000 --> 01:17:15,400
Speaker 2: bed and blocking up the way, and they respond, we

1591
01:17:15,479 --> 01:17:18,800
Speaker 2: are the pilgrim's master. We shall go always a little further,

1592
01:17:19,360 --> 01:17:22,479
Speaker 2: and that is inscribed on the Clocktawer of the British

1593
01:17:22,600 --> 01:17:26,000
Speaker 2: Essays Regiment, alongside the names of all their units fallen.

1594
01:17:26,439 --> 01:17:30,120
Speaker 2: So it's really powerful for people within the Special Operations

1595
01:17:30,120 --> 01:17:33,479
Speaker 2: community and has become, like I said, a mantra for

1596
01:17:33,560 --> 01:17:37,040
Speaker 2: me personally, and I think, a wonderful way to sort

1597
01:17:37,080 --> 01:17:40,400
Speaker 2: of encapsulate the kind of secret to what we're preaching

1598
01:17:40,640 --> 01:17:44,400
Speaker 2: in resilience. It's nothing big, it's nothing flashy. It is

1599
01:17:44,439 --> 01:17:47,040
Speaker 2: exactly as you said, Sarah, just that one step in

1600
01:17:47,040 --> 01:17:49,559
Speaker 2: front of the other towards a worthy destination.

1601
01:17:49,920 --> 01:17:51,639
Speaker 3: Oh well, what a perfect way to end.

1602
01:17:51,840 --> 01:17:53,759
Speaker 1: I feel like you've passed that on to now Vimi

1603
01:17:53,840 --> 01:17:57,960
Speaker 1: mantra and hopefully many many people who have sold out

1604
01:17:58,040 --> 01:18:01,880
Speaker 1: the book, and also hopefully our reprint is very quickly

1605
01:18:01,920 --> 01:18:03,920
Speaker 1: on its way so that more people can start to

1606
01:18:03,920 --> 01:18:06,400
Speaker 1: build their own resilient shield. Thank you so so much

1607
01:18:06,439 --> 01:18:08,640
Speaker 1: for joining guys, and I'll pop a link in the

1608
01:18:08,640 --> 01:18:09,240
Speaker 1: show notes.

1609
01:18:09,640 --> 01:18:10,439
Speaker 4: Absolute pleasure.

1610
01:18:10,600 --> 01:18:13,040
Speaker 5: Awesome, Thank you, Sarah's being great to chat.

1611
01:18:13,920 --> 01:18:16,240
Speaker 1: If it wasn't conveyed clearly enough in this episode. I'll

1612
01:18:16,280 --> 01:18:19,320
Speaker 1: reiterate now that I took so much out of Resilient Shield,

1613
01:18:19,720 --> 01:18:22,640
Speaker 1: particularly as Lockdown continues to drag on, and hope that

1614
01:18:22,680 --> 01:18:25,599
Speaker 1: some of you get yourselves at copy too. I'll pop

1615
01:18:25,640 --> 01:18:27,760
Speaker 1: the link in the show notes to wherever there are

1616
01:18:27,800 --> 01:18:30,440
Speaker 1: still copies available at the time of releasing this episode,

1617
01:18:30,600 --> 01:18:32,040
Speaker 1: along with links to Dan.

1618
01:18:31,920 --> 01:18:34,080
Speaker 3: And Ben's socials in case you want to know more.

1619
01:18:34,479 --> 01:18:38,040
Speaker 1: Very big thank you to our former guest fellow ex

1620
01:18:38,160 --> 01:18:42,519
Speaker 1: sas soldier turned NBA graduate and dear friend Mark Wales,

1621
01:18:42,880 --> 01:18:45,920
Speaker 1: who introduced me to the Pronk Brothers for the show.

1622
01:18:46,520 --> 01:18:49,519
Speaker 1: I'm continually blown away by the platform this yighborhood has

1623
01:18:49,560 --> 01:18:52,360
Speaker 1: created for me to discover and meet new and fascinating

1624
01:18:52,360 --> 01:18:55,040
Speaker 1: people every week. I sometimes feel like these chats give

1625
01:18:55,120 --> 01:18:57,280
Speaker 1: us a little taste of exploring the world and meeting

1626
01:18:57,320 --> 01:18:59,439
Speaker 1: new people from the comfort of our own homes while

1627
01:18:59,439 --> 01:19:01,439
Speaker 1: we can't go out and do it in person. So

1628
01:19:01,520 --> 01:19:04,519
Speaker 1: I really do hope some of you enjoy that escapism too.

1629
01:19:04,800 --> 01:19:05,479
Speaker 3: I hope you're having

1630
01:19:05,520 --> 01:19:19,200
Speaker 1: A wonderful week and definding ways to seize your ya