1 00:00:06,552 --> 00:00:10,072 Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and 2 00:00:10,152 --> 00:00:17,192 Speaker 1: waters that this podcast was recorded on. In nineteen ninety three, 3 00:00:17,552 --> 00:00:21,832 Speaker 1: fifteen year old Canadian Chrissy Harn was being a typical teenager. 4 00:00:22,712 --> 00:00:25,832 Speaker 1: She didn't love school. In fact, she had a history 5 00:00:25,872 --> 00:00:30,032 Speaker 1: of skipping classes. She was messy, a bit of a tomboy, and, 6 00:00:30,072 --> 00:00:32,512 Speaker 1: according to a friend, a bit of an easy target 7 00:00:32,512 --> 00:00:36,431 Speaker 1: for bullies too. She'd been struggling with her parents' divorce. 8 00:00:36,832 --> 00:00:39,831 Speaker 1: Her dad lived too far away for regular visits. She 9 00:00:39,832 --> 00:00:42,791 Speaker 1: didn't really get along with her new stepdad, but she 10 00:00:42,952 --> 00:00:46,232 Speaker 1: was trying. Amongst the arguments, there would also be moments 11 00:00:46,272 --> 00:00:48,912 Speaker 1: where they would connect, helping him out in the garage 12 00:00:49,071 --> 00:00:52,992 Speaker 1: replacing the spark plugs in his car. A sensitive and 13 00:00:53,111 --> 00:00:57,511 Speaker 1: shy girl, Chrissy wasn't a partier. In fact, her parents 14 00:00:57,512 --> 00:01:00,592 Speaker 1: had praised her when she'd returned from an event because 15 00:01:00,632 --> 00:01:03,952 Speaker 1: she said she felt uncomfortable with her peers drinking and smoking. 16 00:01:05,272 --> 00:01:08,432 Speaker 1: Chrissy loved her mind Mary Anne, but like any teen 17 00:01:08,512 --> 00:01:12,512 Speaker 1: parent relationship, they also fought, and so when her mum 18 00:01:12,631 --> 00:01:15,191 Speaker 1: told her to get to school on the afternoon of 19 00:01:15,232 --> 00:01:18,392 Speaker 1: May eighteen, nineteen ninety three, she put on her jacket 20 00:01:18,831 --> 00:01:23,912 Speaker 1: and reluctantly started the short walkover. Mary Anne will remember 21 00:01:23,911 --> 00:01:26,552 Speaker 1: this moment for the rest of her life like a 22 00:01:26,592 --> 00:01:30,631 Speaker 1: scar that never heals, because that argument would be the 23 00:01:30,712 --> 00:01:33,511 Speaker 1: last time she would ever speak to her daughter. 24 00:01:34,032 --> 00:01:36,272 Speaker 2: And then she lacked to go to school. 25 00:01:36,352 --> 00:01:39,352 Speaker 1: She walked down the other side of the street and 26 00:01:39,512 --> 00:01:43,272 Speaker 1: around the corner, and that was the last I've seen 27 00:01:43,312 --> 00:01:54,392 Speaker 1: of her. I'm Claire Murphy and this is True Crime Conversations, 28 00:01:54,632 --> 00:01:59,232 Speaker 1: a podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking 29 00:01:59,272 --> 00:02:02,152 Speaker 1: to the people who know the most about them. It's 30 00:02:02,192 --> 00:02:06,512 Speaker 1: a parent's worst nightmare, a missing child, a police pease 31 00:02:06,592 --> 00:02:09,992 Speaker 1: force who thinks every teenager is a runaway, and a 32 00:02:10,072 --> 00:02:14,632 Speaker 1: mother who desperately searches despite the roadblock she faces from 33 00:02:14,672 --> 00:02:19,432 Speaker 1: the authorities. The case of missing Ontario teen Chrissy Haron 34 00:02:19,712 --> 00:02:22,431 Speaker 1: would not be one sold in a year, not even 35 00:02:22,472 --> 00:02:26,352 Speaker 1: a decade on from her disappearance, but a shock confession, 36 00:02:26,792 --> 00:02:30,352 Speaker 1: a botched court case, an undercover sting, and more than 37 00:02:30,472 --> 00:02:34,872 Speaker 1: twenty years later, someone would finally be held accountable for 38 00:02:34,912 --> 00:02:39,752 Speaker 1: her death. Chrissy Harron's body has never been found, but 39 00:02:39,832 --> 00:02:42,392 Speaker 1: the person who took her life is paying for his 40 00:02:42,552 --> 00:02:46,112 Speaker 1: crime thanks to the dedication of a mother and one. 41 00:02:46,432 --> 00:02:52,352 Speaker 1: Independent film and podcast maker David Ridgan worked alongside Chrissy's mother, 42 00:02:52,472 --> 00:02:55,792 Speaker 1: Mary Anne for more than fifteen years as they brought 43 00:02:55,792 --> 00:02:59,352 Speaker 1: her killer to justice. The host of the Someone Knows 44 00:02:59,352 --> 00:03:02,112 Speaker 1: Something podcast sat down with us to tell us how 45 00:03:02,152 --> 00:03:08,392 Speaker 1: a mother's undying love can outlast at all. Before we 46 00:03:08,472 --> 00:03:11,152 Speaker 1: dive into the interview with David, there are a few 47 00:03:11,272 --> 00:03:15,272 Speaker 1: key points you should understand to fully grasp Chrissy's story 48 00:03:15,432 --> 00:03:21,192 Speaker 1: and David's investigation. Police kept Anthony Ringle in custody for 49 00:03:21,312 --> 00:03:25,112 Speaker 1: thirty seven hours, five hours of that was before he 50 00:03:25,232 --> 00:03:28,352 Speaker 1: was even read his rights. He was allowed phone calls 51 00:03:28,352 --> 00:03:32,712 Speaker 1: to lawyers after he requested legal representation, spending a total 52 00:03:32,832 --> 00:03:36,232 Speaker 1: of around twenty minutes only on calls with them, but 53 00:03:36,312 --> 00:03:40,192 Speaker 1: no lawyer attended the questioning. When asked to explain himself 54 00:03:40,232 --> 00:03:44,832 Speaker 1: on the record, Ringle would only say no questions, no comment. 55 00:03:45,632 --> 00:03:50,032 Speaker 1: Despite this, police continued to question him, often without taking 56 00:03:50,032 --> 00:03:55,032 Speaker 1: notes or recording the conversation. A second officer stepped in 57 00:03:55,112 --> 00:03:58,592 Speaker 1: to take over the interrogation after it had seemingly wrapped up. 58 00:03:59,152 --> 00:04:02,272 Speaker 1: Ringle said he did not want to continue and said 59 00:04:02,312 --> 00:04:05,192 Speaker 1: he was advised by the lawyer not to take them 60 00:04:05,192 --> 00:04:07,352 Speaker 1: to the place that he had had initially told the 61 00:04:07,392 --> 00:04:10,632 Speaker 1: officer after calling nine to one one that Chrissy's body was, 62 00:04:11,112 --> 00:04:15,352 Speaker 1: but they took him anyway. The list of questionable police 63 00:04:15,392 --> 00:04:19,832 Speaker 1: conduct was adding up as Ringle's confusing and sometimes barely 64 00:04:19,912 --> 00:04:23,952 Speaker 1: audible responses continued. He would switch from admitting to the 65 00:04:24,032 --> 00:04:27,432 Speaker 1: murder to no comment. When asked why he would confess 66 00:04:27,512 --> 00:04:29,592 Speaker 1: to it if he didn't do it, he gave no 67 00:04:29,672 --> 00:04:34,312 Speaker 1: real answer. Several undercover police officers would infiltrate the trailer 68 00:04:34,312 --> 00:04:37,392 Speaker 1: park where Ringle lived. They connected with him by telling 69 00:04:37,472 --> 00:04:40,232 Speaker 1: him how they too were victims doing it tough in life. 70 00:04:40,872 --> 00:04:44,552 Speaker 1: Then one night they sat down and watched the documentary 71 00:04:44,552 --> 00:04:48,952 Speaker 1: about him. In the footage taken over many hours, Ringle 72 00:04:48,952 --> 00:04:52,712 Speaker 1: would get upset with what he said were inconsistencies in 73 00:04:52,752 --> 00:04:56,112 Speaker 1: the documentary's telling of his story. He would say they 74 00:04:56,112 --> 00:04:59,952 Speaker 1: got it wrong when they claimed he drowned her. He had, 75 00:04:59,952 --> 00:05:03,432 Speaker 1: in fact, more suffocated Chrissy by pushing her face down 76 00:05:03,432 --> 00:05:06,912 Speaker 1: into the mud. He explained how he'd used her jacket 77 00:05:06,912 --> 00:05:09,472 Speaker 1: to restrict her hands as he had nothing to tie 78 00:05:09,472 --> 00:05:12,752 Speaker 1: her up with that enabled him. He said to remove 79 00:05:12,752 --> 00:05:17,032 Speaker 1: her pants. He described the location where it all took place, 80 00:05:17,592 --> 00:05:20,232 Speaker 1: just across the river, and how he had just come 81 00:05:20,272 --> 00:05:22,712 Speaker 1: across her in the park that day, a place she 82 00:05:22,792 --> 00:05:25,872 Speaker 1: used to frequent. He explained how he left her out 83 00:05:25,872 --> 00:05:28,512 Speaker 1: there the first night, before returning to cover her body 84 00:05:28,712 --> 00:05:32,992 Speaker 1: with sticks and logs the next day. Ringle also told 85 00:05:32,992 --> 00:05:36,351 Speaker 1: the undercover officers how he'd thought about doing it again, 86 00:05:37,032 --> 00:05:40,791 Speaker 1: but in almost attempting to justify the crime, Ringle said 87 00:05:40,832 --> 00:05:44,392 Speaker 1: that by only doing it once and never again, essentially 88 00:05:44,632 --> 00:05:47,232 Speaker 1: he'd been a good person. He even went as far 89 00:05:47,272 --> 00:05:49,872 Speaker 1: as to say that he hoped he had the opportunity 90 00:05:49,992 --> 00:05:52,952 Speaker 1: to apologize to Chrissy in the afterlife, where he would 91 00:05:52,992 --> 00:05:56,512 Speaker 1: ask her was her life better before or after he 92 00:05:56,552 --> 00:06:02,152 Speaker 1: did what he did. I know you've been investigating the 93 00:06:02,192 --> 00:06:05,592 Speaker 1: case of Christine or Chrissy as she was known harn 94 00:06:05,712 --> 00:06:09,232 Speaker 1: For gosh, it must be getting close to two decades now, 95 00:06:09,392 --> 00:06:11,112 Speaker 1: but I'd love to take you back to the beginning. 96 00:06:11,472 --> 00:06:14,712 Speaker 1: When did you first hear about her story and what 97 00:06:15,032 --> 00:06:17,032 Speaker 1: led you to really focus in on this. 98 00:06:16,952 --> 00:06:20,872 Speaker 2: One for Christine Herron. I'm a documentary filmmaker before I 99 00:06:20,912 --> 00:06:24,912 Speaker 2: was a podcaster, and I had been looking at cold 100 00:06:24,952 --> 00:06:27,992 Speaker 2: cases in general for television since two thousand and four, 101 00:06:28,432 --> 00:06:30,672 Speaker 2: and at the time I found out about Chrissie's case, 102 00:06:30,712 --> 00:06:34,632 Speaker 2: I was developing some television documentaries for CBC, the Canadian 103 00:06:34,632 --> 00:06:38,632 Speaker 2: Broadcasting Corporation in late two thousands. I think about cold 104 00:06:38,672 --> 00:06:43,072 Speaker 2: cases obviously, and I recall Chrissie's case made the shortlist 105 00:06:43,352 --> 00:06:46,592 Speaker 2: pretty much right away for several reasons. I attended a 106 00:06:46,632 --> 00:06:49,192 Speaker 2: memorial service for her in Hanover, which is a small 107 00:06:49,232 --> 00:06:52,272 Speaker 2: town here in Ontario, southwest Ontario, just to do some 108 00:06:52,352 --> 00:06:56,152 Speaker 2: initial research and something about the service for her, her 109 00:06:56,192 --> 00:07:00,632 Speaker 2: photo up there on the stand, how people spoke about her, 110 00:07:00,672 --> 00:07:04,072 Speaker 2: the whole atmosphere, it was very thick. It made me 111 00:07:04,072 --> 00:07:06,632 Speaker 2: want to try to help, and I remember I remember 112 00:07:06,672 --> 00:07:09,792 Speaker 2: saying to the associate producer who was there with me 113 00:07:09,832 --> 00:07:11,672 Speaker 2: at the time, that Chrissy was someone I wish I 114 00:07:11,672 --> 00:07:15,152 Speaker 2: had been able to meet. And I remember actually crying, 115 00:07:15,792 --> 00:07:18,752 Speaker 2: and I remember feeling this kind of heat of frustration 116 00:07:19,472 --> 00:07:21,432 Speaker 2: about the case. You know, I just kind of knew 117 00:07:21,432 --> 00:07:23,392 Speaker 2: that I wanted to help on it, but I wasn't 118 00:07:23,432 --> 00:07:26,792 Speaker 2: able to at the time. There are other cases took 119 00:07:26,912 --> 00:07:30,152 Speaker 2: over in the early stages, but eventually I did get 120 00:07:30,232 --> 00:07:33,392 Speaker 2: to Chrissie's case as the fourth in a series of 121 00:07:33,472 --> 00:07:37,392 Speaker 2: films I made for CBC, and then the podcast kind 122 00:07:37,432 --> 00:07:40,392 Speaker 2: of came after that, So there's several stages of production 123 00:07:41,112 --> 00:07:42,392 Speaker 2: that went into Chrissie's case. 124 00:07:42,712 --> 00:07:44,432 Speaker 1: Well, talk to me a bit about what it was 125 00:07:44,952 --> 00:07:47,192 Speaker 1: about Chrissy that made you feel like she was someone 126 00:07:47,192 --> 00:07:49,752 Speaker 1: that you wanted to meet. What was she like and 127 00:07:49,792 --> 00:07:51,832 Speaker 1: what did you learn about who she was as a person. 128 00:07:52,672 --> 00:07:57,072 Speaker 2: Christine was fifteen at the time she disappeared. She was rebellious, 129 00:07:57,712 --> 00:08:01,112 Speaker 2: she didn't like school, but she enjoyed her walks outside. 130 00:08:01,352 --> 00:08:04,672 Speaker 2: She liked the natural world, she liked reading, she liked 131 00:08:04,712 --> 00:08:09,552 Speaker 2: being around children. She had that kind of, like I say, 132 00:08:09,752 --> 00:08:13,712 Speaker 2: kind of counterintuitive nature that maybe she didn't get along 133 00:08:13,752 --> 00:08:17,832 Speaker 2: with everybody, but she was very kind and I could 134 00:08:17,872 --> 00:08:20,152 Speaker 2: just tell the way people were talking about her. But 135 00:08:20,272 --> 00:08:21,792 Speaker 2: that's what she was like. And you know, when I 136 00:08:21,832 --> 00:08:25,512 Speaker 2: met her mother, Mary Anne, I saw some video of 137 00:08:25,592 --> 00:08:28,272 Speaker 2: Chrissy at the time and it was quite touching around 138 00:08:28,272 --> 00:08:30,712 Speaker 2: the Christmas tree and things like that. It's hard to 139 00:08:30,752 --> 00:08:33,672 Speaker 2: explain really what makes me want to take on a case. 140 00:08:33,712 --> 00:08:37,271 Speaker 2: There's some other factors that were interesting as well, but 141 00:08:37,352 --> 00:08:39,792 Speaker 2: mainly just the way it struck me at that ceremony 142 00:08:39,872 --> 00:08:40,192 Speaker 2: for her. 143 00:08:40,712 --> 00:08:44,832 Speaker 1: Well, let's delve into Chrissy's story. It's May eighteen, nineteen 144 00:08:44,912 --> 00:08:47,432 Speaker 1: ninety three. You mentioned there that she didn't love going 145 00:08:47,432 --> 00:08:50,192 Speaker 1: to school, and she'd woken up that morning and claimed 146 00:08:50,232 --> 00:08:52,592 Speaker 1: to be unwell. Whether she actually was or not is 147 00:08:52,752 --> 00:08:55,352 Speaker 1: a question many parents ask themselves about their children when 148 00:08:55,352 --> 00:08:57,352 Speaker 1: they're trying to get out of going to school. But 149 00:08:58,392 --> 00:09:00,872 Speaker 1: her mum was a bit concerned about the truancy officer 150 00:09:00,912 --> 00:09:04,872 Speaker 1: Maryann who you mentioned, and insisted her daughter does go 151 00:09:04,952 --> 00:09:07,192 Speaker 1: to school that day, so she kind of sends her off. 152 00:09:08,112 --> 00:09:11,672 Speaker 1: What was Chrissy's reaction to her mom trying to force 153 00:09:11,672 --> 00:09:12,752 Speaker 1: her to go to school that day. 154 00:09:13,032 --> 00:09:14,952 Speaker 2: Well, I think it's like anything, if you try to 155 00:09:14,992 --> 00:09:18,632 Speaker 2: make it happen, the opposite happens. If you try to 156 00:09:18,672 --> 00:09:21,391 Speaker 2: force that idea out of your head, it's actually it 157 00:09:21,832 --> 00:09:24,872 Speaker 2: galvanizes the idea in your head. So I think that 158 00:09:24,992 --> 00:09:27,112 Speaker 2: by trying to get Chrissy to go to school, she 159 00:09:27,272 --> 00:09:29,232 Speaker 2: was less likely to want to go. But eventually I 160 00:09:29,272 --> 00:09:33,271 Speaker 2: think maybe it formulate a plan formulated in Chrissy's head 161 00:09:33,312 --> 00:09:36,752 Speaker 2: that Okay, I'll go to school, but not go to school. 162 00:09:36,992 --> 00:09:39,151 Speaker 2: You know, I'll go to school the school the long way, 163 00:09:39,672 --> 00:09:44,352 Speaker 2: and it turned out that on that morning she was sick. 164 00:09:44,392 --> 00:09:47,632 Speaker 2: And it was May eighteenth, nineteen ninety three. As you said, 165 00:09:48,072 --> 00:09:51,312 Speaker 2: they had an argument and the obtruancy officer called, and 166 00:09:52,032 --> 00:09:53,672 Speaker 2: so it was I guess it was around one or 167 00:09:53,752 --> 00:09:57,352 Speaker 2: midday in the afternoon that Chrissy finally said okay, got up, 168 00:09:57,632 --> 00:10:00,672 Speaker 2: left and slammed the door. And this was allegedly on 169 00:10:00,712 --> 00:10:02,592 Speaker 2: her way to school. Mary Anne saw go down the 170 00:10:02,592 --> 00:10:04,552 Speaker 2: street and turn the corner and that was the last 171 00:10:04,592 --> 00:10:06,952 Speaker 2: that she ever saw of her. And it turns out 172 00:10:06,952 --> 00:10:09,112 Speaker 2: that Christy didn't go to school that day. 173 00:10:09,792 --> 00:10:13,192 Speaker 1: Was her mother, then, the last person to actually see 174 00:10:13,232 --> 00:10:16,312 Speaker 1: her alive, apart from the person who would take her life. 175 00:10:16,352 --> 00:10:19,992 Speaker 1: Did anybody else spot her in the aftermath of her disappearance. 176 00:10:20,232 --> 00:10:24,032 Speaker 2: There was nobody else that came forward at the time. 177 00:10:24,592 --> 00:10:28,032 Speaker 2: Nobody else reported to police or buy police in to 178 00:10:28,112 --> 00:10:30,712 Speaker 2: my knowledge, and I've looked through thousands of pages of 179 00:10:30,752 --> 00:10:35,592 Speaker 2: investigative information over two different police departments, the local department 180 00:10:35,632 --> 00:10:38,472 Speaker 2: and the opp the Ontario Provincial Police which took over 181 00:10:39,112 --> 00:10:43,352 Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety nine. Nobody else saw Christy that day 182 00:10:43,592 --> 00:10:46,792 Speaker 2: to my knowledge or anybody else's except for the person 183 00:10:47,192 --> 00:10:47,912 Speaker 2: who killed her. 184 00:10:48,392 --> 00:10:50,672 Speaker 1: So Marianne does what most parents would do in this 185 00:10:50,712 --> 00:10:54,352 Speaker 1: situation where their kid, who is known for skipping classes 186 00:10:54,392 --> 00:10:57,752 Speaker 1: at school, does calls all their friends. Doesn't have a 187 00:10:57,792 --> 00:11:00,432 Speaker 1: big circle of friends, but she know none of them 188 00:11:00,472 --> 00:11:04,072 Speaker 1: have seen her. Police states too early to really do anything, 189 00:11:04,072 --> 00:11:07,192 Speaker 1: but she does report it to police later that What 190 00:11:07,352 --> 00:11:11,232 Speaker 1: was the police's initial response to mary Anne's request for 191 00:11:11,272 --> 00:11:12,392 Speaker 1: them to search for her daughter. 192 00:11:12,712 --> 00:11:16,712 Speaker 2: Well, initially, police, and in many cases this happens, right 193 00:11:16,792 --> 00:11:19,392 Speaker 2: or wrong, police suggests that she'll come back, you know, 194 00:11:19,552 --> 00:11:22,511 Speaker 2: so she's a runaway, and usually that's a pretty temporary 195 00:11:22,552 --> 00:11:26,872 Speaker 2: maneuver by police. Usually it's give it some time. Unfortunately, 196 00:11:26,912 --> 00:11:29,192 Speaker 2: everybody knows in the true crime world at the first 197 00:11:29,192 --> 00:11:32,752 Speaker 2: seventy two hours and blah blah blah are important, and 198 00:11:32,832 --> 00:11:35,592 Speaker 2: they are. And in this case though the police kept 199 00:11:35,632 --> 00:11:38,352 Speaker 2: to that story, kept to that narrative. The local police 200 00:11:38,432 --> 00:11:43,152 Speaker 2: chief his daughter had a habit of departing, apparently according 201 00:11:43,152 --> 00:11:45,832 Speaker 2: to him, so he was saying, citing these kind of 202 00:11:46,232 --> 00:11:49,512 Speaker 2: anecdotal stories of she'll be back, my daughter always comes 203 00:11:49,552 --> 00:11:51,312 Speaker 2: back kind of thing. But that went on for like 204 00:11:51,352 --> 00:11:54,712 Speaker 2: a year, and there were these false sightings of Christy 205 00:11:54,792 --> 00:11:58,232 Speaker 2: and Toronto police kept, you know, suggesting that maybe she 206 00:11:58,432 --> 00:12:00,872 Speaker 2: was with those people that were being seen in Toronto, 207 00:12:00,952 --> 00:12:03,032 Speaker 2: or she was with a bunch of punk rockers or something. 208 00:12:03,352 --> 00:12:06,832 Speaker 2: But basically, nothing ever came back of a real true 209 00:12:06,872 --> 00:12:11,592 Speaker 2: sighting of Chrissy, and in the meantime, important time was passing. 210 00:12:12,232 --> 00:12:14,072 Speaker 2: If you get to know the story, you'll realize that 211 00:12:14,152 --> 00:12:18,232 Speaker 2: this was a massive mistake at this time because they 212 00:12:18,232 --> 00:12:21,112 Speaker 2: could have probably found her if they did a proper search. 213 00:12:21,872 --> 00:12:26,912 Speaker 2: They only undertook a rudimentary search around town and they 214 00:12:26,952 --> 00:12:30,192 Speaker 2: never found any trace of her. But if they had 215 00:12:30,872 --> 00:12:34,272 Speaker 2: taken it a little bit more seriously, I'm not sure 216 00:12:34,272 --> 00:12:37,032 Speaker 2: what would have made them take it more seriously, maybe 217 00:12:37,072 --> 00:12:40,032 Speaker 2: more experience. It was a very small force, local town 218 00:12:40,112 --> 00:12:43,072 Speaker 2: force they had over police. In fact, the guy, the 219 00:12:43,112 --> 00:12:46,872 Speaker 2: man who investigated the case in the beginning, was later 220 00:12:47,032 --> 00:12:50,472 Speaker 2: arrested for you know, some kind of horrible crimes he 221 00:12:50,552 --> 00:12:53,112 Speaker 2: himself committed, So I'm not sure how great of an 222 00:12:53,152 --> 00:12:56,631 Speaker 2: investigator he was. The Ontario Provincial Police when they took 223 00:12:56,632 --> 00:13:02,271 Speaker 2: over the case, reinvestigated everything, They reinterviewed everybody, They talked 224 00:13:02,312 --> 00:13:05,072 Speaker 2: to other people that they hadn't talked to before, and 225 00:13:05,112 --> 00:13:09,352 Speaker 2: the other investigation, but still nothing happened. You know, that 226 00:13:09,472 --> 00:13:12,472 Speaker 2: was nineteen ninety nine. This happened in nineteen ninety three, 227 00:13:12,872 --> 00:13:16,392 Speaker 2: so nothing the police did really made any difference to 228 00:13:16,432 --> 00:13:16,872 Speaker 2: the case. 229 00:13:20,152 --> 00:13:23,672 Speaker 1: You're listening to True Crime Conversations with me Claire Murphy. 230 00:13:24,072 --> 00:13:27,511 Speaker 1: I'm speaking with David Ridgan, host of the podcast Someone 231 00:13:27,632 --> 00:13:32,032 Speaker 1: Knows Something about the case of Chrissy Haron. Next, David 232 00:13:32,032 --> 00:13:34,832 Speaker 1: and I dive into why Marianne searched for her daughter 233 00:13:34,952 --> 00:13:38,912 Speaker 1: was derailed and how the community in Hanover, Ontario not 234 00:13:38,952 --> 00:13:42,272 Speaker 1: only failed to help, but actually told her to give up. 235 00:13:45,432 --> 00:13:49,192 Speaker 1: Do you think the police's attitude to Chrissy's disappearance contributed 236 00:13:49,192 --> 00:13:53,151 Speaker 1: to how the community responded to Marianne and her other 237 00:13:53,192 --> 00:13:55,432 Speaker 1: family members in that time, because Marianne spoke to you 238 00:13:55,472 --> 00:13:59,632 Speaker 1: and said that she would put up posters asking for 239 00:13:59,672 --> 00:14:02,232 Speaker 1: information about the whereabouts of her missing daughter that would 240 00:14:02,232 --> 00:14:04,312 Speaker 1: get torn down, and that people kept telling her to 241 00:14:04,392 --> 00:14:07,592 Speaker 1: kind of let it go, and that you know, Chrissy 242 00:14:07,752 --> 00:14:11,511 Speaker 1: was just off, you know, being a rebellious teenager. Do 243 00:14:11,552 --> 00:14:15,312 Speaker 1: you think the police's attitude didn't help that the community 244 00:14:15,312 --> 00:14:16,631 Speaker 1: didn't seem to rally around them. 245 00:14:16,992 --> 00:14:18,752 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not sure that it did. Help. I think 246 00:14:18,752 --> 00:14:22,232 Speaker 2: the communities tend to have kind of a singular mind sometimes, 247 00:14:22,272 --> 00:14:25,792 Speaker 2: and if one person thinks that something, then many of 248 00:14:25,832 --> 00:14:29,472 Speaker 2: them will think the same thing. You know. They definitely 249 00:14:29,552 --> 00:14:32,952 Speaker 2: Chrissy and Marianne were not wealthy people. They were not 250 00:14:32,992 --> 00:14:37,032 Speaker 2: from a wealthy background or family, working class family very 251 00:14:37,112 --> 00:14:41,632 Speaker 2: much so. And I'm not sure how much that impacted 252 00:14:41,632 --> 00:14:44,072 Speaker 2: the case, but I can only imagine it. Did you know, 253 00:14:44,192 --> 00:14:46,872 Speaker 2: this person's not as important as everybody else, which is 254 00:14:47,152 --> 00:14:50,112 Speaker 2: another part of the reason I thought the case was important. Yeah, 255 00:14:50,152 --> 00:14:52,192 Speaker 2: I mean, if police take it seriously, other people will 256 00:14:52,192 --> 00:14:53,152 Speaker 2: take it seriously too. 257 00:14:54,392 --> 00:14:58,912 Speaker 1: We did mention that eventually the opp does take over 258 00:14:59,232 --> 00:15:01,232 Speaker 1: the case from the local police, but that is six 259 00:15:01,312 --> 00:15:04,152 Speaker 1: years down the track. Do we know what actually led 260 00:15:04,192 --> 00:15:06,632 Speaker 1: to that being escalated beyond the local police. 261 00:15:06,872 --> 00:15:10,712 Speaker 2: I think that I think the local police in Hannover asked, 262 00:15:10,792 --> 00:15:13,112 Speaker 2: but I also think that there was some pressure from 263 00:15:13,352 --> 00:15:17,912 Speaker 2: Marianna and her family about this case, and I think 264 00:15:17,952 --> 00:15:21,552 Speaker 2: that that eventually took over. See, the OPP in Ontario 265 00:15:22,072 --> 00:15:24,832 Speaker 2: at that time was expanding and they were trying to 266 00:15:25,032 --> 00:15:29,952 Speaker 2: basically user small town forces and take over them and 267 00:15:30,032 --> 00:15:33,352 Speaker 2: be paid by the municipality instead of the small town force. 268 00:15:33,432 --> 00:15:36,432 Speaker 2: So they would argue, for example, we're a force of 269 00:15:36,472 --> 00:15:39,512 Speaker 2: a thousand members investigators, we have a huge forensic team, 270 00:15:39,552 --> 00:15:41,792 Speaker 2: and we got lots of money. Why would you want 271 00:15:41,792 --> 00:15:45,272 Speaker 2: to have four men or four people, you know, policing 272 00:15:45,312 --> 00:15:48,072 Speaker 2: your city or town of six thousand when you could 273 00:15:48,072 --> 00:15:52,152 Speaker 2: have you know, uber force taking over. But you know 274 00:15:52,232 --> 00:15:54,672 Speaker 2: a lot of times towns did pay to have OPP 275 00:15:54,872 --> 00:15:57,952 Speaker 2: come in and then we're unhappy because the sort of 276 00:15:58,032 --> 00:15:59,872 Speaker 2: roster or menu of what they were going to be 277 00:15:59,912 --> 00:16:04,672 Speaker 2: providing investigatively was not what they expected. However, in this case, 278 00:16:04,672 --> 00:16:08,512 Speaker 2: the OPP took over the case and I think eventually 279 00:16:08,552 --> 00:16:11,392 Speaker 2: took over policing in the town, just like many other 280 00:16:11,392 --> 00:16:14,072 Speaker 2: small towns on Ontario at the time. So I guess 281 00:16:14,072 --> 00:16:16,272 Speaker 2: it was part of an expansionist effort. So it kind 282 00:16:16,312 --> 00:16:19,712 Speaker 2: of worked into the parents requesting that the OPP take 283 00:16:19,712 --> 00:16:21,952 Speaker 2: it over. So you know, it might have been the 284 00:16:21,712 --> 00:16:24,392 Speaker 2: thin edge of the wedge that allowed the OPP to 285 00:16:24,472 --> 00:16:26,792 Speaker 2: kind of start to make their move on that town 286 00:16:26,872 --> 00:16:29,672 Speaker 2: as well. I maybe talking out of my ass on 287 00:16:29,672 --> 00:16:32,872 Speaker 2: that one. I'm not exactly sure about that history, but 288 00:16:32,952 --> 00:16:34,472 Speaker 2: that's pretty much what I think happened. 289 00:16:35,552 --> 00:16:40,192 Speaker 1: What Chrissy's family told anything about these investigations, like how 290 00:16:40,272 --> 00:16:43,832 Speaker 1: much information were they given after the escalation to the opp. 291 00:16:44,392 --> 00:16:48,672 Speaker 2: Very little, and that's not abnormal. But when you hide 292 00:16:48,672 --> 00:16:51,472 Speaker 2: things from parents, you do it to help protect the 293 00:16:51,512 --> 00:16:54,992 Speaker 2: case to some extent. I understand the impulse to do that. 294 00:16:55,032 --> 00:16:58,472 Speaker 2: You don't want to distribute information to somebody who you 295 00:16:58,512 --> 00:17:01,752 Speaker 2: think might then tell someone else that there's a suspect 296 00:17:01,872 --> 00:17:04,392 Speaker 2: or that you're talking to this guy or you know, 297 00:17:04,472 --> 00:17:07,472 Speaker 2: and then that information gets sed it around the community 298 00:17:07,552 --> 00:17:10,351 Speaker 2: and soon enough, everybody's pointing at the same guy just 299 00:17:10,431 --> 00:17:13,792 Speaker 2: because the police said they're interviewing him to somebody. Right, 300 00:17:14,151 --> 00:17:17,231 Speaker 2: So you're kind of seeding the information, the poisoning the 301 00:17:17,272 --> 00:17:20,232 Speaker 2: case by giving out too much information. But you would 302 00:17:20,232 --> 00:17:23,351 Speaker 2: think that at some point police would learn to trust 303 00:17:23,391 --> 00:17:27,431 Speaker 2: family members and realize that they kind of need the 304 00:17:27,472 --> 00:17:31,031 Speaker 2: information to kind of help them get through their day 305 00:17:31,111 --> 00:17:33,391 Speaker 2: to day, you know, they need something to hold on to. 306 00:17:33,631 --> 00:17:36,871 Speaker 1: You can see how that might be an issue because 307 00:17:36,911 --> 00:17:38,952 Speaker 1: the place where they live is not big, right, It's 308 00:17:38,952 --> 00:17:42,232 Speaker 1: not a huge community of people. It's less than ten thousand, 309 00:17:42,311 --> 00:17:45,032 Speaker 1: and that's pretty small town mentality when you think. 310 00:17:44,871 --> 00:17:47,151 Speaker 2: About it, right, Yeah, it's pretty small. It was a 311 00:17:47,192 --> 00:17:50,391 Speaker 2: pretty big industrial base when it started, it was like 312 00:17:50,431 --> 00:17:53,912 Speaker 2: a furniture making place in Ontario. I think a lot 313 00:17:53,952 --> 00:17:58,591 Speaker 2: of German settlers moved in at one point and lots 314 00:17:58,591 --> 00:18:01,391 Speaker 2: of furniture production. But when I started working there and 315 00:18:01,431 --> 00:18:03,991 Speaker 2: when Chrissy disappeared, it was kind of a shadow of that. 316 00:18:04,591 --> 00:18:08,351 Speaker 2: Most lot of abandoned buildings and old factories around, and 317 00:18:09,351 --> 00:18:11,431 Speaker 2: it was a small town down on its luck to 318 00:18:11,431 --> 00:18:13,792 Speaker 2: some extent. Yeah, when I got in there. 319 00:18:13,712 --> 00:18:16,951 Speaker 1: We mentioned out factories. What's a really interesting piece of 320 00:18:17,111 --> 00:18:20,631 Speaker 1: evidence was that a young man in that community claimed, 321 00:18:20,792 --> 00:18:23,311 Speaker 1: in the aftermath of Chrissy's disappearance that he received a 322 00:18:23,311 --> 00:18:25,471 Speaker 1: phone call from someone claiming to be her and that 323 00:18:25,512 --> 00:18:28,311 Speaker 1: she was in fact at one of these old abandoned factories. 324 00:18:28,351 --> 00:18:29,431 Speaker 1: Did anything come of that? 325 00:18:30,272 --> 00:18:33,672 Speaker 2: Nothing came of that, and in any of the documentation 326 00:18:33,752 --> 00:18:37,151 Speaker 2: I've read extensively on that, it feels like somebody was 327 00:18:37,151 --> 00:18:39,672 Speaker 2: playing a joke on this guy. I'm sure he got 328 00:18:39,712 --> 00:18:41,831 Speaker 2: the call, but it felt like somebody was making a 329 00:18:41,831 --> 00:18:44,552 Speaker 2: prank call on him, and I think that's what police 330 00:18:45,792 --> 00:18:48,071 Speaker 2: figured out at the end as well. I mean, obviously 331 00:18:48,151 --> 00:18:51,272 Speaker 2: Chrissy didn't show up. It was two or two months later. 332 00:18:51,351 --> 00:18:54,951 Speaker 2: I think she would have had no resources. It's a 333 00:18:54,992 --> 00:18:57,912 Speaker 2: small town, like, yeah, you can hide in a building 334 00:18:57,952 --> 00:19:01,351 Speaker 2: for a couple of days, but it's not credible. And 335 00:19:01,792 --> 00:19:04,111 Speaker 2: there was some other issues with the person who got 336 00:19:04,151 --> 00:19:05,871 Speaker 2: the call, which I'm not going to mention now, but 337 00:19:06,512 --> 00:19:08,471 Speaker 2: it seems like that it wasn't the first time that 338 00:19:08,512 --> 00:19:11,392 Speaker 2: crank calls were made. What's to say, Well, let's fuss forward. 339 00:19:11,472 --> 00:19:15,992 Speaker 1: Eleven years has passed since Chrissie's disappeared. It's August two 340 00:19:16,032 --> 00:19:18,631 Speaker 1: thousand and four. There's finally a breakthrough in the case, 341 00:19:18,671 --> 00:19:23,232 Speaker 1: but it does not come from any police investigation. Can 342 00:19:23,272 --> 00:19:26,792 Speaker 1: you talk us through a bit of the surprise confession? 343 00:19:27,512 --> 00:19:30,111 Speaker 2: Part of the reason I was intrigued by Chrissy's case. 344 00:19:30,431 --> 00:19:33,672 Speaker 2: The other part is because there appeared to be a suspect. 345 00:19:33,952 --> 00:19:37,231 Speaker 2: But this is a suspect that the police had not found. 346 00:19:37,712 --> 00:19:40,111 Speaker 2: Up until August of two thousand and four. Police had 347 00:19:40,151 --> 00:19:43,192 Speaker 2: no idea what happened to Christy, as I just talked about. 348 00:19:43,311 --> 00:19:46,272 Speaker 2: And remember, Christy disappeared, as he said, eleven years ago, 349 00:19:46,671 --> 00:19:49,231 Speaker 2: eleven years before in May of nineteen ninety three. So 350 00:19:49,992 --> 00:19:52,951 Speaker 2: in August two thousand and four, at a party with 351 00:19:53,032 --> 00:19:56,951 Speaker 2: his family members, a man aged thirty five at the time. 352 00:19:57,351 --> 00:19:59,511 Speaker 2: Near the end of the evening, after some drinks and 353 00:19:59,552 --> 00:20:02,232 Speaker 2: some kind of upset he had with his family, started 354 00:20:02,232 --> 00:20:06,071 Speaker 2: telling people that he had killed Christine Herron. He picked 355 00:20:06,151 --> 00:20:08,671 Speaker 2: up phone, he dialed nine one one and then he 356 00:20:08,752 --> 00:20:12,431 Speaker 2: hung up. He changed his mind, but the police responded anyway, 357 00:20:12,472 --> 00:20:15,272 Speaker 2: I don't know what happens in Australia, but here, even 358 00:20:15,311 --> 00:20:17,071 Speaker 2: on a hang up to a nine one one call, 359 00:20:17,151 --> 00:20:19,711 Speaker 2: they will respond to find out what the hang up 360 00:20:19,831 --> 00:20:24,032 Speaker 2: was all about. So the police officer arrives, the man 361 00:20:24,111 --> 00:20:28,351 Speaker 2: notices and starts walking down the stairs towards him, holding 362 00:20:28,391 --> 00:20:30,751 Speaker 2: his hands up as if he wants to be handcuffed, 363 00:20:31,111 --> 00:20:34,472 Speaker 2: and he confesses again I killed Chrissy, says I killed 364 00:20:34,552 --> 00:20:37,472 Speaker 2: Chrissy to the responding officer, and he says, I can 365 00:20:37,472 --> 00:20:40,672 Speaker 2: show police where I left her. And at the same time, 366 00:20:40,712 --> 00:20:43,351 Speaker 2: eleven years earlier, when Chrissy disappeared, the guy would have 367 00:20:43,391 --> 00:20:46,471 Speaker 2: been twenty four years old at that time, and his 368 00:20:46,591 --> 00:20:49,272 Speaker 2: name was Anthony Edward Wringle. And this is a guy 369 00:20:49,311 --> 00:20:51,792 Speaker 2: police said no and was not on the radar. Local guy, 370 00:20:51,871 --> 00:20:54,831 Speaker 2: local guy. And he was born on December tenth, nineteen 371 00:20:54,871 --> 00:20:58,671 Speaker 2: sixty eight, one of six children five for nine or thereabouts, 372 00:20:58,752 --> 00:21:01,991 Speaker 2: blunt features, thin browning hair, and he had worked at 373 00:21:01,992 --> 00:21:04,311 Speaker 2: the local Canadian Tire which is like a hardware store 374 00:21:04,351 --> 00:21:07,512 Speaker 2: that yes does sell tires here, but he was unemployed 375 00:21:08,272 --> 00:21:10,991 Speaker 2: at the time in May nineteen ninety three when Chrissy 376 00:21:11,151 --> 00:21:13,912 Speaker 2: left the house to allegedly go to school that May, 377 00:21:14,831 --> 00:21:18,231 Speaker 2: and when I met him, he was living between locations 378 00:21:18,272 --> 00:21:21,471 Speaker 2: like at a family member's house, couch surfing, and at 379 00:21:21,472 --> 00:21:25,431 Speaker 2: a local trailer park. So Anthony Ringo goes through the 380 00:21:25,431 --> 00:21:28,151 Speaker 2: stages that what would have been a murder trial in 381 00:21:28,192 --> 00:21:31,032 Speaker 2: two thousand and six. They took him to the police 382 00:21:31,071 --> 00:21:34,911 Speaker 2: station and interrogated him, but the judge throws the case 383 00:21:34,952 --> 00:21:39,071 Speaker 2: out basically because of police mistakes. So this is two 384 00:21:39,071 --> 00:21:41,591 Speaker 2: thousand and six, and I heard about the case in 385 00:21:41,591 --> 00:21:44,591 Speaker 2: two thousand and nine, so the case has stayed in 386 00:21:44,631 --> 00:21:47,631 Speaker 2: two thousand and six for a year. So basically it 387 00:21:47,671 --> 00:21:50,911 Speaker 2: sits in suspended animation until new evidence is brought forward. 388 00:21:50,911 --> 00:21:53,871 Speaker 2: But no new evidence was brought forward, so Ringo is 389 00:21:53,952 --> 00:21:57,192 Speaker 2: freed and nothing new happens, and it just sits there 390 00:21:57,591 --> 00:22:00,752 Speaker 2: from two thousand and six onwards, And at the time 391 00:22:00,792 --> 00:22:03,632 Speaker 2: Anthony still lived in the area. Nobody did anything. There 392 00:22:03,671 --> 00:22:06,071 Speaker 2: was very little reporting on it, like there was like 393 00:22:06,552 --> 00:22:10,071 Speaker 2: article in the paper about this, No reporter talks to him, 394 00:22:10,792 --> 00:22:14,191 Speaker 2: no police action can be seen happening still two thousand 395 00:22:14,232 --> 00:22:16,552 Speaker 2: and six, and then add three years more and I 396 00:22:16,591 --> 00:22:18,951 Speaker 2: come on the scene two thousand and nine, church service, 397 00:22:18,952 --> 00:22:22,511 Speaker 2: et cetera, and I begin working with Chrissy's mom, Mary Anne. 398 00:22:23,232 --> 00:22:27,552 Speaker 2: Police barely assist me, but regardless, we're able to uncover 399 00:22:27,631 --> 00:22:30,311 Speaker 2: many of the court files and investigative documents from the case. 400 00:22:30,351 --> 00:22:33,591 Speaker 2: By freedom of information. Mary Anne for the first time 401 00:22:33,671 --> 00:22:37,311 Speaker 2: learns what's actually happening or what happened, why did it fail, 402 00:22:37,472 --> 00:22:40,191 Speaker 2: why did the case get thrown out? Some of what 403 00:22:40,272 --> 00:22:44,392 Speaker 2: Anthony said, and we go from there. That's the television 404 00:22:44,431 --> 00:22:47,191 Speaker 2: doc part. So that's what I'm shooting with my camera 405 00:22:47,311 --> 00:22:52,192 Speaker 2: for television. So the podcast covers that and takes over 406 00:22:52,871 --> 00:22:56,792 Speaker 2: with the new process. So throughout the process we have 407 00:22:56,911 --> 00:23:00,551 Speaker 2: mary Anne confronting the murderer, Like we try to go 408 00:23:00,631 --> 00:23:03,231 Speaker 2: to visit him, he won't talk to us. It doesn't 409 00:23:03,272 --> 00:23:05,351 Speaker 2: work out the scenario the way we had imagined it. 410 00:23:05,391 --> 00:23:07,632 Speaker 2: So I go try to speak to this guy myself, 411 00:23:07,671 --> 00:23:11,111 Speaker 2: Anthony Wringle, I do meet him. I knock, cold knock, 412 00:23:11,151 --> 00:23:13,111 Speaker 2: on his trailer door at a trailer park, the same 413 00:23:13,151 --> 00:23:16,231 Speaker 2: trailer park. We speak for a long time and I 414 00:23:16,272 --> 00:23:19,272 Speaker 2: ask him the direct and pointed question did you kill Christine? 415 00:23:19,591 --> 00:23:23,031 Speaker 2: And you'll hear the answers and podcasts. So all that 416 00:23:23,111 --> 00:23:25,591 Speaker 2: information about the case, the court drama, talking to Ringo, 417 00:23:25,631 --> 00:23:27,912 Speaker 2: all that stuff goes into a twenty minute doc made 418 00:23:27,952 --> 00:23:31,672 Speaker 2: for CBC goes to air in the spring of twenty twelve. 419 00:23:32,232 --> 00:23:34,792 Speaker 2: And then shortly after the documentary went to air the 420 00:23:34,831 --> 00:23:39,831 Speaker 2: television documentary, police start an undercover operation on Anthony Wringle 421 00:23:39,871 --> 00:23:42,511 Speaker 2: in the same trailer park where I met him. So 422 00:23:42,591 --> 00:23:46,272 Speaker 2: then the podcast takes over and tells that story and 423 00:23:46,391 --> 00:23:48,591 Speaker 2: picks up with the TV show left off because nobody 424 00:23:48,631 --> 00:23:51,232 Speaker 2: knows about this on an undercover operation. This is all 425 00:23:51,272 --> 00:23:53,952 Speaker 2: brand new news that this podcast is breaking. 426 00:23:54,032 --> 00:23:59,151 Speaker 1: Basically, So do police actually tell you that your documentary 427 00:23:59,351 --> 00:24:02,311 Speaker 1: is the catalyst for this undercover operation? Do they say 428 00:24:02,391 --> 00:24:05,672 Speaker 1: why they actually start this when they've left this case? 429 00:24:05,752 --> 00:24:06,831 Speaker 1: Kind of just sit this as. 430 00:24:06,712 --> 00:24:09,591 Speaker 2: I long, I can only assume that it had something 431 00:24:09,631 --> 00:24:12,591 Speaker 2: to do with it, because it basically the documentary exposes 432 00:24:12,631 --> 00:24:16,671 Speaker 2: a ton of police errors and mistakes, and it's very 433 00:24:16,712 --> 00:24:19,712 Speaker 2: embarrassing for the opp who's been telling people that they're 434 00:24:19,712 --> 00:24:22,591 Speaker 2: such an amazing investigative force, and to some extent, they are. 435 00:24:23,391 --> 00:24:27,512 Speaker 2: So it picks up tells the story of the undercover operation, 436 00:24:27,871 --> 00:24:31,392 Speaker 2: and it shows directly that the work Mary and I 437 00:24:31,391 --> 00:24:34,232 Speaker 2: did is literally used by police so they can arrest 438 00:24:34,311 --> 00:24:37,871 Speaker 2: Anthony again. So the film is literally used so they 439 00:24:37,911 --> 00:24:42,071 Speaker 2: can get them again in February twenty thirteen. So except 440 00:24:42,071 --> 00:24:46,071 Speaker 2: this time, the trial in twenty sixteen goes forward and 441 00:24:46,111 --> 00:24:48,871 Speaker 2: he's convicted and now is serving a life sentence here 442 00:24:48,911 --> 00:24:52,391 Speaker 2: in Ontario in a federal penitentiary, a second degree murder. 443 00:24:52,472 --> 00:24:54,951 Speaker 2: They got him on and yeah, I feel good about it. 444 00:24:54,952 --> 00:24:56,551 Speaker 2: That's the next question. How do you feel about that? 445 00:24:56,591 --> 00:24:58,712 Speaker 2: And it's pretty amazing that the work did its job, 446 00:24:59,032 --> 00:25:01,231 Speaker 2: So that's all I can say about it. You know, 447 00:25:01,351 --> 00:25:04,032 Speaker 2: I think people have to listen for themselves. But it's 448 00:25:04,071 --> 00:25:08,071 Speaker 2: a real up and down roller coaster and quite satisfying. 449 00:25:08,272 --> 00:25:09,671 Speaker 2: It's over fifteen years of work. 450 00:25:09,792 --> 00:25:22,992 Speaker 1: So what's really interesting too, is you know that work. 451 00:25:23,032 --> 00:25:25,791 Speaker 1: You have worked alongside Marianne for that entire time, and 452 00:25:26,151 --> 00:25:28,911 Speaker 1: without you, she would not know the majority of the 453 00:25:28,952 --> 00:25:32,032 Speaker 1: things that happened during the first court case or even 454 00:25:32,272 --> 00:25:34,951 Speaker 1: during the second because she was considered a potential witness, 455 00:25:34,952 --> 00:25:37,432 Speaker 1: so wasn't allowed to sit in court, so she never 456 00:25:37,472 --> 00:25:41,591 Speaker 1: got to see any of those undercover videos that were 457 00:25:41,752 --> 00:25:45,352 Speaker 1: recorded by police. You actually played them to her? What 458 00:25:45,431 --> 00:25:48,712 Speaker 1: was that like? Because Ringle goes into quite a bit 459 00:25:48,712 --> 00:25:52,192 Speaker 1: of detail about what he actually did, and that would 460 00:25:52,192 --> 00:25:54,192 Speaker 1: have been heartbreaking to show to her. 461 00:25:54,472 --> 00:25:58,231 Speaker 2: It is heartbreaking and it's awful, and Marianne wanted to 462 00:25:58,272 --> 00:26:01,352 Speaker 2: see it, and I still didn't show her. She knows this. 463 00:26:02,111 --> 00:26:04,552 Speaker 2: I didn't show her everything because some of it is 464 00:26:04,591 --> 00:26:08,591 Speaker 2: just too it's really hard. It's one thing that you 465 00:26:08,631 --> 00:26:11,712 Speaker 2: know that somebody killed someone, there's the perpetrator, but when 466 00:26:11,712 --> 00:26:14,431 Speaker 2: you hear them talking about it in such great detail 467 00:26:14,792 --> 00:26:17,792 Speaker 2: in the confession that they gave to the undercover officer 468 00:26:18,512 --> 00:26:21,512 Speaker 2: and they don't know they're being filmed, it's a real 469 00:26:21,712 --> 00:26:24,952 Speaker 2: vulnerability that they kind of expose everything about what they're 470 00:26:24,992 --> 00:26:28,111 Speaker 2: thinking was and it's quite dark in a way that's 471 00:26:28,631 --> 00:26:30,672 Speaker 2: blacker than black, you know, in terms of that kind 472 00:26:30,671 --> 00:26:34,391 Speaker 2: of darkness. So I didn't want to expose Marianne to 473 00:26:34,631 --> 00:26:38,152 Speaker 2: that level. But I do think, and she believes too, 474 00:26:38,232 --> 00:26:43,751 Speaker 2: that confronting the stuff actually helps. So we made the 475 00:26:43,752 --> 00:26:46,591 Speaker 2: decision to watch it together some of the confession just 476 00:26:46,631 --> 00:26:48,792 Speaker 2: to kind of get the story of what happened that day, 477 00:26:48,871 --> 00:26:52,191 Speaker 2: like why did you take her? Et cetera. And I 478 00:26:52,192 --> 00:26:54,272 Speaker 2: mean the answer why is like I hate mondays, you know, 479 00:26:54,351 --> 00:26:55,991 Speaker 2: like why did you do it? I mean, that's not 480 00:26:56,111 --> 00:26:59,632 Speaker 2: really that interesting actually to me, and I don't think 481 00:26:59,671 --> 00:27:02,952 Speaker 2: to Marianne, but it's more sort of tell me what happened, 482 00:27:03,151 --> 00:27:05,752 Speaker 2: you know, what happened that day. So I think that's 483 00:27:05,752 --> 00:27:08,151 Speaker 2: what she had in head. And we watched some of 484 00:27:08,151 --> 00:27:11,391 Speaker 2: the undercover stuff together. I try to talk about the 485 00:27:11,431 --> 00:27:13,311 Speaker 2: other things that I didn't show her sort of in 486 00:27:13,311 --> 00:27:16,192 Speaker 2: a general way, and I think it did help her. 487 00:27:16,351 --> 00:27:18,471 Speaker 2: I mean she's told me it has, That's all I 488 00:27:18,512 --> 00:27:20,871 Speaker 2: can go on. And she's told others that it has. 489 00:27:21,192 --> 00:27:24,311 Speaker 1: So she does say to you though that and she 490 00:27:24,391 --> 00:27:27,512 Speaker 1: said this to other Metia outlets too, that not even 491 00:27:27,831 --> 00:27:30,432 Speaker 1: Wringle ending up with a life sentence is closure for her. 492 00:27:30,472 --> 00:27:34,391 Speaker 1: That you can never truly get closure in a case 493 00:27:34,552 --> 00:27:36,552 Speaker 1: like this, but you have been trying to help her 494 00:27:36,671 --> 00:27:39,071 Speaker 1: kind of get as close as possible to that. Right. 495 00:27:39,311 --> 00:27:43,471 Speaker 1: Has Ringle ever agreed to sit down and speak with 496 00:27:43,552 --> 00:27:45,152 Speaker 1: Marianne about what happened. 497 00:27:44,871 --> 00:27:47,432 Speaker 2: That day, not yet. I mean, for I think closures 498 00:27:47,552 --> 00:27:50,071 Speaker 2: bullshit myself, and I think Marianne kind of agrees. But 499 00:27:50,151 --> 00:27:54,111 Speaker 2: I think it's kind of a media presentation, what the 500 00:27:54,151 --> 00:27:56,311 Speaker 2: idea of closure, because it kind of adds an ending 501 00:27:56,431 --> 00:27:59,831 Speaker 2: to a story. I don't think closure is actually possible. 502 00:27:59,831 --> 00:28:02,512 Speaker 2: I think it's more acceptance that you're looking for and 503 00:28:02,631 --> 00:28:05,991 Speaker 2: trying to be able to move away from having to 504 00:28:06,032 --> 00:28:08,272 Speaker 2: try to solve the case every day and every second 505 00:28:08,351 --> 00:28:10,872 Speaker 2: in your head. It's okay to walk away from that, 506 00:28:10,911 --> 00:28:13,272 Speaker 2: and it's okay to have a good time. It's okay 507 00:28:13,351 --> 00:28:15,432 Speaker 2: to live my life again, you know. And I don't 508 00:28:15,431 --> 00:28:17,271 Speaker 2: think that means closure. I just think it means that 509 00:28:17,311 --> 00:28:20,071 Speaker 2: you have to accept this thing in you that's horrible. 510 00:28:20,472 --> 00:28:23,071 Speaker 2: You know that you're this lost. You have to accept 511 00:28:23,071 --> 00:28:25,032 Speaker 2: that and just live with it like a bubble inside 512 00:28:25,032 --> 00:28:29,032 Speaker 2: you that's never going to go away, and then continue. 513 00:28:29,351 --> 00:28:32,871 Speaker 2: And that's that's what she's looking for. But also she 514 00:28:32,911 --> 00:28:36,272 Speaker 2: wants to know where Chrissy is. And that's one of 515 00:28:36,272 --> 00:28:38,872 Speaker 2: the things that I've found in many cold cases or 516 00:28:39,072 --> 00:28:42,952 Speaker 2: with the families of missing people, is that they don't 517 00:28:42,992 --> 00:28:45,471 Speaker 2: care about the perpetrator. They don't give a fuck about 518 00:28:45,512 --> 00:28:47,671 Speaker 2: that person. They don't give a fuck about what that 519 00:28:47,712 --> 00:28:50,231 Speaker 2: person wanted to do or what they did. They just 520 00:28:50,272 --> 00:28:52,392 Speaker 2: want to know where their loved one is. They want 521 00:28:52,431 --> 00:28:55,471 Speaker 2: to know where their daughter is. Bring her to me. 522 00:28:55,592 --> 00:28:58,872 Speaker 2: I don't care about you, you know, bring her to me, 523 00:28:58,992 --> 00:29:02,672 Speaker 2: Tell me where she is. And I think if some 524 00:29:02,752 --> 00:29:07,032 Speaker 2: perps knew exactly how simple it might be to help 525 00:29:07,072 --> 00:29:09,991 Speaker 2: themselves and help the families, they could just tell that 526 00:29:10,312 --> 00:29:14,392 Speaker 2: a little part of the equation, you know. So I've 527 00:29:14,431 --> 00:29:16,951 Speaker 2: been trying to help Marianne find Chrissy because we know 528 00:29:17,112 --> 00:29:21,992 Speaker 2: where generally she was led to by Wringle that day, 529 00:29:22,872 --> 00:29:26,751 Speaker 2: very specifically actually, and we did try with kadaver dogs. 530 00:29:27,632 --> 00:29:30,112 Speaker 2: Kim Cooper, whom I'm known to be, you know, to 531 00:29:30,192 --> 00:29:34,431 Speaker 2: work with and on other cases, came with me, and 532 00:29:34,832 --> 00:29:37,432 Speaker 2: we went too late in the season because the ferns 533 00:29:37,431 --> 00:29:40,552 Speaker 2: were almost above my head and the dogs. It helps 534 00:29:40,872 --> 00:29:43,592 Speaker 2: to have an open area dogs. It can't be closed 535 00:29:43,632 --> 00:29:45,792 Speaker 2: in like big umbrellas over the ground. It has to 536 00:29:45,832 --> 00:29:48,712 Speaker 2: be open so the smell moves around. So we're going 537 00:29:48,752 --> 00:29:54,112 Speaker 2: back on Good Friday actually this month, because the ferns 538 00:29:54,312 --> 00:29:56,592 Speaker 2: won't be opposite high I actually don't even think they'll 539 00:29:56,592 --> 00:29:59,191 Speaker 2: be emerged that be what they call fiddle heads here, 540 00:29:59,232 --> 00:30:02,112 Speaker 2: which is like the tiny one foot high things, but 541 00:30:02,632 --> 00:30:04,951 Speaker 2: that will be much more preferable. I think we have 542 00:30:04,992 --> 00:30:09,112 Speaker 2: a good chance of getting scent and maybe finding Chrissy 543 00:30:09,232 --> 00:30:12,632 Speaker 2: or some element of Chrissy's remains, So we're going to 544 00:30:12,671 --> 00:30:13,832 Speaker 2: go back and try again. 545 00:30:14,312 --> 00:30:17,792 Speaker 1: David, How do cases like this impact you personally? I mean, 546 00:30:17,992 --> 00:30:20,951 Speaker 1: you see something like this where it is it is 547 00:30:21,832 --> 00:30:25,512 Speaker 1: literally people's worst nightmare that a stranger will come out 548 00:30:25,552 --> 00:30:30,272 Speaker 1: of nowhere snatch you or snatch your child and horrifically, 549 00:30:30,832 --> 00:30:33,471 Speaker 1: you know, rape and murder you or your child like 550 00:30:33,512 --> 00:30:37,992 Speaker 1: that is the stuff of nightmares. How do you personally 551 00:30:38,472 --> 00:30:41,872 Speaker 1: emotionally get through that, especially when you're there with mary 552 00:30:41,911 --> 00:30:43,872 Speaker 1: Anne with her mum, and not take some of that 553 00:30:43,952 --> 00:30:45,192 Speaker 1: emotion on board. 554 00:30:46,032 --> 00:30:48,272 Speaker 2: Well, I guess there's no real secret. I guess I 555 00:30:48,312 --> 00:30:50,712 Speaker 2: do take it on board, and I don't really deal 556 00:30:50,752 --> 00:30:53,352 Speaker 2: with it, you know, Like I think at a younger 557 00:30:53,392 --> 00:30:55,352 Speaker 2: age in this process, I might have thought that I 558 00:30:55,352 --> 00:30:58,592 Speaker 2: could get through it without getting affected. But the truth is, 559 00:30:58,632 --> 00:31:01,912 Speaker 2: like I can just keep pushing things downstream, and then 560 00:31:01,911 --> 00:31:05,872 Speaker 2: when the work's over, maybe six months later, that wave 561 00:31:05,952 --> 00:31:10,991 Speaker 2: catches up and I often feel sudden, a sudden panic 562 00:31:11,032 --> 00:31:15,752 Speaker 2: attack or can't breathe, or moment where it's just overwhelming 563 00:31:16,832 --> 00:31:19,711 Speaker 2: sleep problems. And I've got another case i'm working on 564 00:31:19,792 --> 00:31:22,711 Speaker 2: right now, and several more planned. I don't know how 565 00:31:22,792 --> 00:31:25,471 Speaker 2: much more I can do. You know, I'm not a 566 00:31:25,512 --> 00:31:27,872 Speaker 2: younger man. I think people think I'm like twenty five. 567 00:31:28,632 --> 00:31:30,592 Speaker 2: But I've done a ton of these, and I feel 568 00:31:30,592 --> 00:31:33,792 Speaker 2: like I've work cases just as hard, if not harder, 569 00:31:33,832 --> 00:31:37,272 Speaker 2: than some police investigators have, and certainly been as exposed 570 00:31:37,352 --> 00:31:39,832 Speaker 2: or maybe even more to some of the stuff because 571 00:31:39,872 --> 00:31:41,832 Speaker 2: of the relationship with the family and how close and 572 00:31:41,872 --> 00:31:45,592 Speaker 2: how long the relationship is. But I did choose this. 573 00:31:45,671 --> 00:31:48,192 Speaker 2: It's not, oh poor David, you know, like I chose. 574 00:31:48,232 --> 00:31:50,392 Speaker 2: I choose to be in the seats talking to you, 575 00:31:51,072 --> 00:31:53,312 Speaker 2: and it's you know, the families and the police that 576 00:31:53,512 --> 00:31:57,551 Speaker 2: experience these cases have my sympathies, and I'm, you know 577 00:31:57,592 --> 00:32:01,232 Speaker 2: that part of the reason. I know what they're feeling, 578 00:32:01,952 --> 00:32:04,952 Speaker 2: and I know that this situation, I can help the situation. 579 00:32:05,431 --> 00:32:07,832 Speaker 2: So I feel like I'm using the things I've learned 580 00:32:07,872 --> 00:32:09,991 Speaker 2: and helping them to help myself, which. 581 00:32:09,792 --> 00:32:12,832 Speaker 1: If that makes sense, David, It's been nearly ten years 582 00:32:12,872 --> 00:32:17,632 Speaker 1: since Ringo pled guilty back in twenty sixteen. What do 583 00:32:17,712 --> 00:32:20,312 Speaker 1: we know of him now? Is there any chance of 584 00:32:20,392 --> 00:32:24,231 Speaker 1: him getting out of jail anytime soon? Any possibility he 585 00:32:24,352 --> 00:32:28,511 Speaker 1: might let the family know what happened that day or 586 00:32:28,592 --> 00:32:29,632 Speaker 1: where Chrissy is. 587 00:32:30,872 --> 00:32:32,671 Speaker 2: We've been trying to get in touch with him. I 588 00:32:32,712 --> 00:32:35,471 Speaker 2: think that eventually he will get out. There will be 589 00:32:35,911 --> 00:32:39,032 Speaker 2: an opportunity to be released. He may or may not 590 00:32:39,152 --> 00:32:42,912 Speaker 2: make that opportunity on the first time or two. Eventually, 591 00:32:42,992 --> 00:32:45,272 Speaker 2: I think he will be released, and I think eventually 592 00:32:45,312 --> 00:32:46,912 Speaker 2: we will be able to talk to him, Like I'm 593 00:32:46,952 --> 00:32:50,832 Speaker 2: not giving up on that approach to him. Once he 594 00:32:50,832 --> 00:32:52,751 Speaker 2: gets out, he'll be in the community again. He'll be 595 00:32:52,832 --> 00:32:58,392 Speaker 2: right back, probably in the same trailer park. And I'm 596 00:32:58,392 --> 00:33:00,112 Speaker 2: just going to go back up and knock on the door. 597 00:33:00,152 --> 00:33:03,431 Speaker 2: If I'm eighty, I'll do it, you know, like I 598 00:33:03,472 --> 00:33:06,512 Speaker 2: don't go away, which is part of the problem, but 599 00:33:06,552 --> 00:33:08,992 Speaker 2: it's also part of the promise that I make. So 600 00:33:09,032 --> 00:33:10,832 Speaker 2: that's how I get into these cases. 601 00:33:14,112 --> 00:33:16,951 Speaker 1: Thanks to David for helping us tell this story. True 602 00:33:16,952 --> 00:33:20,552 Speaker 1: Crime Conversations is hosted by me Claire Murphy and produced 603 00:33:20,552 --> 00:33:24,592 Speaker 1: by Charlie Blackman, with audio design by Jacob Brown, thank 604 00:33:24,592 --> 00:33:26,911 Speaker 1: you so much for listening. I'll be back next week 605 00:33:27,112 --> 00:33:29,072 Speaker 1: with another true crime conversation.