Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma mea podcast. Mamma Mere acknowledges the
Speaker 1: traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is
Speaker 1: recorded on. Families are supposed to be happy. That's the
Speaker 1: dream we were all sold. Even if the one we
Speaker 1: came from was not. We all want to believe the
Speaker 1: one that we build certainly will be. No. One cradles
Speaker 1: a baby bump, thinking one day this kid won't call
Speaker 1: me back. No skipping, hopscotching child looks up at their
Speaker 1: marm and thinks, one day, sure, judge me so harshly,
Speaker 1: I'll have to turn away. No parent packs the school
Speaker 1: lunch into the oversized backpack, imagining one day the person
Speaker 1: this little one loves more than me will come between us. No.
Speaker 1: Families are supposed to be happy. But we're all old
Speaker 1: enough and wise enough to know families are so much
Speaker 1: more than that. They are what sustains us and what
Speaker 1: screws us up. They are the evolving answer to the
Speaker 1: question what can I live with? What can I forgive?
Speaker 1: What can I raise? What can I celebrate? And all
Speaker 1: the silence that can open up in the gaps cracked
Speaker 1: open by a fractured family can be the most painful
Speaker 1: thing of all, an empty chair and a phone that
Speaker 1: doesn't beep, the quiet holidays, the pain of pushing away,
Speaker 1: the constant what ifs that should have said. The y
Speaker 1: means the question what's worth this? Yes, families are supposed
Speaker 1: to be happy, but they are so much more than that. Hello. Hello,
Speaker 1: I am Holly Wainwright, and I am mid midlife, mid family,
Speaker 1: mid figuring it all out this season of mid We
Speaker 1: are answering your dilemmas, the things that are keeping you
Speaker 1: up at night, you know, besides the hormones, because we
Speaker 1: have hit the messy middle and there is a lot
Speaker 1: to unpack here today. All your dilemmas were answering are
Speaker 1: about family estrangement, the term for when the happy family
Speaker 1: myth falls apart and turns to silence or recrimination or
Speaker 1: drama or worry. We are talking about a mother who's
Speaker 1: afraid that her new daughter in law will take a
Speaker 1: boy away, a daughter struggling to make peace with a
Speaker 1: vinegary mother, a mother on the brink of losing a
Speaker 1: daughter over love. And because I am all care but
Speaker 1: no expertise in this department, I have called in someone
Speaker 1: who knows some stuff, Jackie Manning. Jackie is known as
Speaker 1: the Friendly Psychologist and she has twenty five years of
Speaker 1: experience and a clinical practice in Sydney. You might have
Speaker 1: seen her on TV or on YouTube or on radio
Speaker 1: with my old mate Andrew Daddo. Jackie came in to
Speaker 1: help me with your dilemmas. But please remember, as always
Speaker 1: that this is general advice only, and if you're struggling
Speaker 1: in any way, make sure to see a health professional
Speaker 1: who can advise you specifically. There are going to be
Speaker 1: some links in our show notes to point you in
Speaker 1: the right direction, But in the meantime, here's Jackie and
Speaker 1: here are your dilemmas about families. Jackie, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for joining us today to help me answer some
Speaker 1: of our mid listeners questions.
Speaker 2: It's lovely to be with you, holl.
Speaker 1: It's really interesting because we get a lot of questions
Speaker 1: about families, and it's people can feel this big sense
Speaker 1: of failure if their family relationships aren't like the ones
Speaker 1: we see all around us in movies and you know,
Speaker 1: happy families and on social media on Mother's Day and
Speaker 1: all that, it can feel like such a failure. If
Speaker 1: your family doesn't seem like.
Speaker 2: That, it can and it can actually trigger fear in
Speaker 2: people too, And the reason for that is our bodies
Speaker 2: are very ancient in their makeup, and our safety has
Speaker 2: in most of the history of humanity depended on being
Speaker 2: part of a tribe. Yeah, right, and yeah, and.
Speaker 1: So the fear of being cast out and alone is
Speaker 1: a very primal one.
Speaker 2: Very primal and very real. So our brains and our
Speaker 2: neurochemistry don't know that. We can go to woolies and
Speaker 2: get some food, or you live in a house and
Speaker 2: not be attacked, but our bodies can react to separation
Speaker 2: from tribes with the same fear as if we're under
Speaker 2: thread of life.
Speaker 1: That makes a lot of sense, I put it to
Speaker 1: me like that.
Speaker 2: And humans, I think are particularly vulnerable in this way
Speaker 2: because you see some other species like I always think
Speaker 2: of I saw a giraffe being born once on the
Speaker 2: news or something, and basically the baby giraffe drops out
Speaker 2: and then can toddle off within half an hour or something.
Speaker 1: Now it has to walk on those spindly legs.
Speaker 2: Yes, probably still quite vulnerable. But as humans, we can't
Speaker 2: care for ourselves, so we're incredibly dependent on our caregivers,
Speaker 2: and if those relationships are probably then that can cause
Speaker 2: issues in families.
Speaker 1: All right, Well, let's get to the questions from our listeners.
Speaker 1: So the first one is my son has a partner
Speaker 1: of four years. They live together, and they're planning to
Speaker 1: start a family. She doesn't like me. It's hard to
Speaker 1: write those words, but to be honest, it's just true.
Speaker 1: At first, when my son would bring out of family occasions,
Speaker 1: she would make a polite effort to make small talk
Speaker 1: and share little stories from their lives. But now she
Speaker 1: might only come to one in three family gatherings. Often
Speaker 1: makes an excuse through my son about being busy or
Speaker 1: having another family thing on. But I know she just
Speaker 1: doesn't like me. I know we're quite different people. I
Speaker 1: can be a bit loud and overshary, as my kids
Speaker 1: tell me all the time, and she is definitely more
Speaker 1: quiet and reserved. But I always dreamed that when our
Speaker 1: kids found partners, our family would just get bigger and
Speaker 1: that we'd all be close, and it's clear that's not
Speaker 1: what's going to happen here. Recently, I've made new family
Speaker 1: group chat and invited her so she can feel included,
Speaker 1: but she hasn't even accepted that invite. Whenever I mention
Speaker 1: it to my son, he just shuts down and changes
Speaker 1: the subject or tells me I'm imagining it and she's
Speaker 1: just busy, but I know it's me. I lie awake
Speaker 1: worrying sometimes that if they have a baby, which my
Speaker 1: son has been talking about, I will not be allowed
Speaker 1: to be part of my grandchild's life, or and that
Speaker 1: my son will just get further and further away from me.
Speaker 1: What do I do? That's you know what when we
Speaker 1: asked for dilemmas, a lot of women of the sort
Speaker 1: of age that a lot of our listeners are had
Speaker 1: problems with their children's partners and they were really worried
Speaker 1: that they were going to fracture those relationships. It can
Speaker 1: be quite fraught.
Speaker 2: It can be very hard. And you know what I'm
Speaker 2: hearing from this listener is that she's had a dream
Speaker 2: and she's had aid.
Speaker 1: They were all going to be this big, happy, rowdy bunch.
Speaker 2: Around the table and probably another daughter figure for her,
Speaker 2: and that dream she's she's experiencing some grief in that
Speaker 2: that dream is not being realized. If she was with me,
Speaker 2: I'd be questioning the assumption that she has that this
Speaker 2: partner doesn't like her, because.
Speaker 1: She's very in the way that she expresses it here.
Speaker 1: She's very clear about it.
Speaker 2: She's quite definitely and she and it's and you know,
Speaker 2: she may not be her cup of tea. They may
Speaker 2: just be quite different. But also I'd be interested in
Speaker 2: knowing about the partner's comfort level with family gatherings in general,
Speaker 2: because she may be an only child, she may have
Speaker 2: come from a very quiet family. Family may be traumatic
Speaker 2: for her. So it may not be the mum in
Speaker 2: Laura as such. It may be that the experience of
Speaker 2: being in that family environment is just overwhelming, and she's
Speaker 2: she caught a shy and reserved.
Speaker 1: In Yes, so our listener says that she is quite
Speaker 1: overshary and a loud. Yeah, that's kind of negative words to
Speaker 1: use about herself, but it.
Speaker 2: Is probably.
Speaker 1: And that the daughter in law is more quiet and reserved.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'd be wondering if she's a bit anxious
Speaker 2: as well. And it is lovely. I think over sharing.
Speaker 2: I think sharing brings connection. So I think that and
Speaker 2: that's that Mum's love language, or that's how she reacts
Speaker 2: and connects with people. And even her own children are like,
Speaker 2: oh Mom, just to just stop it. You know, it's
Speaker 2: a little bit too much. So I think that this
Speaker 2: woman is also projecting in terms of the future and
Speaker 2: when they have children. And I understand she's nervous about
Speaker 2: that about if there be some separation and distance, But
Speaker 2: I'd try and keep that in perspective and be like,
Speaker 2: she's worrying about something that hasn't happened yet. Even if
Speaker 2: they have a child, she's worrying about something that hasn't
Speaker 2: happened yet. And she can play a really important role
Speaker 2: in her son's life still, you know, turn up with food,
Speaker 2: all those things. When people have newborn's life gets turned
Speaker 2: upside down. So she could play perhaps a practical role
Speaker 2: or a practical way she can show her love might
Speaker 2: even land with this daughter in law in a different way.
Speaker 1: That's so interesting, Jackie, that what I'm hearing you say
Speaker 1: is that our listeners sort of made this decision. She
Speaker 1: doesn't like me, she doesn't like coming to family gatherings.
Speaker 1: She's going to take my son further away from me.
Speaker 1: And what you're sort of saying is maybe you're not
Speaker 1: connecting on them, like you too haven't connected yet because
Speaker 1: you're not speaking the same language of family. Almost to
Speaker 1: our listeners, she's like family is big gatherings and we're
Speaker 1: all in each other's lives and we've got a group
Speaker 1: chat going and all those things. And maybe it's not
Speaker 1: that the daughter in law doesn't like her, but she's
Speaker 1: just got a very different perspective. Yeah, should our listener
Speaker 1: try a different way to connect with her, do you think? Look?
Speaker 2: I think yes and no. I think that you know,
Speaker 2: look at the connection and why is a connection with
Speaker 2: her particularly important if if she's she doesn't need to
Speaker 2: have a friendship with her as such?
Speaker 1: I mean, I think we put a lot of pressure
Speaker 1: on that relationship, that mother in law daughter and law relationship.
Speaker 2: But it doesn't have to be that way. Like, Yeah,
Speaker 2: some mom in laws and daughter in laws probably like
Speaker 2: to hang out occasionally and things, or maybe some have
Speaker 2: their own sort of conversations and friendship, but I think
Speaker 2: that's more unusual. I think it's more about keeping the
Speaker 2: relationship open with her son and always being kind, you know,
Speaker 2: trying to be understanding that everyone's different. My teenage kids
Speaker 2: are very different to me, and this might be relevant
Speaker 2: to this partner. They have a much smaller social battery
Speaker 2: than me. Mum. That's what they tell me all the time.
Speaker 2: That's I love being around people. I love going out,
Speaker 2: I love you know, socializing and things like that, and
Speaker 2: they like it to a degree, but they have a
Speaker 2: much lower threshold than me. And I've just had to
Speaker 2: accept that.
Speaker 1: So my son's the same. And the thing is is
Speaker 1: that now kids have that language too, don't they. So
Speaker 1: my kid, who's a teenager too, he'll say to me,
Speaker 1: I'm my social battery's dreaded.
Speaker 2: That's exactly what they do. And it's like, okay, you know, occasionally,
Speaker 2: once a year or something, my social batteries drained, do
Speaker 2: or I just need to just stay in. And that
Speaker 2: could be the case here. It's not so much that
Speaker 2: this woman doesn't like the mum in law. I think
Speaker 2: that's a decision that's I don't think it's accurate. You know,
Speaker 2: it's unless they've had a fight or conflict.
Speaker 1: It doesn't sound like it a little bit more. She's
Speaker 1: finding the daughter in law a bit avoidant.
Speaker 2: Maybe yeah, And she might be, and she might It
Speaker 2: depends what she does for work as well, like because
Speaker 2: some people have very people facing jobs. If she's a
Speaker 2: teacher or something like that, she's in front of people
Speaker 2: all day every day and just might not want to
Speaker 2: be on a WhatsApp group because you know you're a parent.
Speaker 2: Groups might have half of them are mute. You know,
Speaker 2: it's like they It may just be that she doesn't
Speaker 2: want that for herself. It's not personal to the listener.
Speaker 2: Perhaps I think that's in the realm of possibilities anyway, So.
Speaker 1: This is so smart because basically what you're saying is
Speaker 1: our listener. I don't want to paraphrase you, but it's
Speaker 1: sort of saying, this is all about me, And what
Speaker 1: you're sort of saying is it might not be all
Speaker 1: about you.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: What's some practical advice for her? Because she says she's
Speaker 1: lying awake at night worrying about this and worrying about
Speaker 1: that they're going to have a baby and she's not
Speaker 1: going to see them and all this catastrophizing that she's doing.
Speaker 1: Do you have any practical advice for.
Speaker 2: I do, especially for the people long awake at night
Speaker 2: worrying about things. I often encourage my clients to do something.
Speaker 2: It's a bit of an indelicate word, but I say
Speaker 2: do a brain vomit, which is writing out your thoughts
Speaker 2: in the middle of the night, in the middle of
Speaker 2: the nights off and when things pop up, and there's space,
Speaker 2: and there's quiet and a brain vomit is not a journal.
Speaker 2: People get anxious about the idea of making a journal.
Speaker 2: It's literally just pouring out whatever's in your brain out
Speaker 2: onto a piece of paper or into your notes appy
Speaker 2: if your phone's on, do not disturb and whatever, so
Speaker 2: that you're not interrupted by your phone. And the purpose
Speaker 2: of that is our brains. We don't run our brains.
Speaker 2: We run a portion of them, and we can support them.
Speaker 2: So our unconscious mind. If you have a thought and
Speaker 2: it's got nagy around it, your brain will circulate those
Speaker 2: thoughts and ruminate those thoughts around and around.
Speaker 1: Familiar with this. This is a midlife thing that gets
Speaker 1: worse too sometimes it.
Speaker 2: Can, especially with hormones going crazy. So I don't know
Speaker 2: why I picture this, but I picture a little sort
Speaker 2: of dude in her unconscious in a Bob the Builder
Speaker 2: had or something, and he detects a thought and his
Speaker 2: job is to just keep us dinging that bell so
Speaker 2: that that thought just goes around and round around. When
Speaker 2: you vomit it out on a page, it puts Bob
Speaker 2: the Builder to sleep, And so you can calm down
Speaker 2: and you don't look at that. It doesn't have to
Speaker 2: make sense. It can be swear words, it can be
Speaker 2: whatever it is that's antagonizing you in that moment. Get
Speaker 2: it out of your system. It's what i'd say, she's
Speaker 2: tried to make approaches to her son. I probably, you know,
Speaker 2: encourage that she's already done that. So I don't know if.
Speaker 1: That's she says he shuts down and says, you're imagining it,
Speaker 1: and that she's just busy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that could be true if we take that
Speaker 2: on face value again, like what does she do for
Speaker 2: her career? No, you know, she might just be really busy.
Speaker 2: She might have like a limited pocket of time and
Speaker 2: wants to spend that with her friends or her family,
Speaker 2: and doesn't enjoy coming to every single family event. Depends
Speaker 2: how many family events they have to comes to one
Speaker 2: in three, but do they have weekly dinners? And some
Speaker 2: families are really enthusiastic, and really I've got one client
Speaker 2: whose partner is super enthusiastic and has so many gatherings.
Speaker 2: It's a lot, and she doesn't necessarily like to go
Speaker 2: to every single thing either. But it's not personal, it's
Speaker 2: she's just exhausted. So it could be that I would
Speaker 2: try and just accept things as they are, except that
Speaker 2: this woman is different and that her dream of having
Speaker 2: a daughter in law which she could go shopping with
Speaker 2: or catch up for coffee with possibly doesn't sound like
Speaker 2: it's going to happen right now, But you never know
Speaker 2: what might happen when they have children. She might become
Speaker 2: more of a figure if she lives close to them.
Speaker 2: That's really handy. New parents need support.
Speaker 1: I do parenting. In my experience, there's lots of letting
Speaker 1: go of all the things. She thought, it's going to
Speaker 1: be like this, and they're going to be like that,
Speaker 1: and they're going to do that, and it's going to
Speaker 1: be like That's yeah, kids are rarely exactly who you
Speaker 1: pictured them to be anyway.
Speaker 2: No exactly, and they've got their own lives to live,
Speaker 2: like our jobs to love them, support them, help them
Speaker 2: grow into functioning people, and then they go off, maybe
Speaker 2: to the other side of the world sometimes. So you know, yeah,
Speaker 2: I did that too, and I didn't think of my
Speaker 2: former so it was well I kind of did, but
Speaker 2: for a nanosecond, And that's our job. Our children don't
Speaker 2: belong to us. But hopefully by accepting I think she'll
Speaker 2: find more connection forthcoming as well. I think if she
Speaker 2: keeps pushing and pushing, it might work against her, So
Speaker 2: I'd probably just try and get some self care along
Speaker 2: with that as well. For her, she's obviously feeling it.
Speaker 2: If she hasn't seen a professional, she might want to
Speaker 2: do that just to talk through her feelings. Her feelings
Speaker 2: are really valid as well. They're probably a couple of
Speaker 2: practical tips.
Speaker 1: I'd say that's really helped. After the break, we'll hear
Speaker 1: from a woman who's trying to decide whether or not
Speaker 1: to reconnect with her difficult mom who's nearing the end
Speaker 1: of her life. Stay with us. Okay, this one, this
Speaker 1: one is tricky. My mother is in her eighties and
Speaker 1: really quite unwell. She moved into a care facility a
Speaker 1: couple of years ago, and my brothers and I visit
Speaker 1: her regularly, but we have never been a particularly close family.
Speaker 1: My mother can be spiky and difficult and judgmental. Something
Speaker 1: I've realized as I've gotten older and built my own
Speaker 1: relationships and done some therapy too. Is just her own stuff,
Speaker 1: probably from her childhood. But now that I can see
Speaker 1: the end of her life ahead of us, I can't
Speaker 1: shake the sadness that we might never be close and
Speaker 1: all the missed opportunities we've had to have the kind
Speaker 1: of mother daughter relationships I see around me. Oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: I feel emotional. Is it too late to talk to
Speaker 1: her about this, to be a good daughter in her
Speaker 1: final months or years and to tell each other that
Speaker 1: we're sorry for all the things we clashed over, or
Speaker 1: at least should I do that. I've thought about writing
Speaker 1: her a letter that me or someone else could read
Speaker 1: to her. Is that a good idea? Oh, Jackie? Is
Speaker 1: this is really sad because I think a little bit
Speaker 1: like our first question. So often it's the picture of
Speaker 1: how you think things should be.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was thinking that this is how they are, right.
Speaker 1: It's really hard.
Speaker 2: It is her and there's a lot of poignancy in
Speaker 2: this one. I was thinking that too, it echoes through
Speaker 2: the relationship wasn't what she wanted it to be, and
Speaker 2: she's wisely trying to understand that and understood that her
Speaker 2: mum had limitations in whatever she experienced through her childhood,
Speaker 2: which would affect how she fostered and promoted the relationship
Speaker 2: with her and to siblings. She's asked is it too
Speaker 2: late and I think it's never too late to try
Speaker 2: and to try and connect and if she sits with it,
Speaker 2: if she didn't do that, how would she feel if
Speaker 2: she didn't at least try? She said another wise thing
Speaker 2: there too, like should we apologize to each other about
Speaker 2: the ways we've hurt each other or something like that
Speaker 2: we'vehed over the things we've clashed over. And then she said,
Speaker 2: or should I do that? And I think that's all
Speaker 2: we can ever control is what we communicate. We can't
Speaker 2: control anyone else's inputs. So I'd be encouraging this listener
Speaker 2: to yes to think of that as a good idea
Speaker 2: to perhaps get some support professionally while she works through
Speaker 2: what it is she wants to express. Because the thing
Speaker 2: I'll do with my clients is if there's a situation
Speaker 2: like this and this is not uncommon, sadly, is to
Speaker 2: prepare themselves emotionally for whatever reaction might come.
Speaker 1: Because it might not go like the movie. They might know,
Speaker 1: you know your loved one might not accept your apology
Speaker 1: and want to participate in the same way.
Speaker 2: They may not want to listen. They may want to avoid,
Speaker 2: They may get angry, They may say, oh no, that
Speaker 2: never happened. They may I don't know. You know, there's
Speaker 2: all sorts of reactions people can have, so a lot
Speaker 2: of it's about context and setting the context. So for
Speaker 2: her writing something is quite useful too, and I'd probably
Speaker 2: take some time to get to the point where she's
Speaker 2: got something she's happy with. I'd encourage her to learn
Speaker 2: some communication tools that sort of neutralize the sting of
Speaker 2: sometimes the things we might want to say, simple ones.
Speaker 2: There's a communication tool called the non violent Communication Tool,
Speaker 2: and it was first developed I think thirty forty years
Speaker 2: ago in the prison system in America to try and
Speaker 2: re juice punch ups between inmates. Basically, you try and
Speaker 2: describe how you felt about a certain situation, and you
Speaker 2: try and describe the situation and not the person, so
Speaker 2: you might can take a bit of grammatical effort, which
Speaker 2: is why it's good to prepare as well, not just
Speaker 2: to go in blind to say something like, you know,
Speaker 2: when I was told I was stupid or something growing up,
Speaker 2: I felt devastated and like you didn't love me or
Speaker 2: whatever it might be, rather than say when you said this,
Speaker 2: and again, our primal brains will kick in when we
Speaker 2: hear the word you in an argument. I mean, we
Speaker 2: may not be aware of it, it may not be a
Speaker 2: conscious thing, but we'll often get defensive and we'll often
Speaker 2: feel like it's an attack, and it's not an attack.
Speaker 2: Someone's trying to express themselves. But then the people can
Speaker 2: shut down and not listen to what comes next. And
Speaker 2: so sharing breeds intimacy as well. And perhaps the mum
Speaker 2: had a different perspective of things as they were growing up,
Speaker 2: all their conflicts, and so sharing how it was for
Speaker 2: her could be a really healing thing for her, no
Speaker 2: matter what her mum reacts with.
Speaker 1: It's so interesting that you say, you know, prepare yourself
Speaker 1: to get a reaction. How do you do that? Because
Speaker 1: a while ago on mid we had an amazing woman
Speaker 1: who's like her. She's a death dueller, she's around.
Speaker 2: I listened to that Jack.
Speaker 1: She was amazing and one of the things she said
Speaker 1: about the end of life tricky family relationships is that
Speaker 1: people are still who they are even when they're dying.
Speaker 1: It's basically what she said. So if your dad is
Speaker 1: a grumpy old bugger who never accepts responsibility, he's a
Speaker 1: grumpy old bugger who never accepts responsibility in his last
Speaker 1: days too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, quite personally.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I mean and she said that sometimes people
Speaker 1: change and you do get those things that we see
Speaker 1: in the movies where everybody cries and hold hands and
Speaker 1: says you were right, I was wrong, but that often
Speaker 1: not like often not. And so how do you kind
Speaker 1: of prepare yourself like expectation wise? You know, you were saying,
Speaker 1: our listener will probably feel better if she gets if
Speaker 1: she says what she wants to say, as she said,
Speaker 1: should I apologize or whatever, and you're saying, yeah, she
Speaker 1: will probably feel better, but she how does she prepare
Speaker 1: for like a stinging? I might not get exactly what
Speaker 1: I want out of this.
Speaker 2: If I was working with her, I'd be looking at
Speaker 2: what comes up for her in her body and any
Speaker 2: anxiety about it and really doing some I'd do this
Speaker 2: funny talk called tapping, and I'd be working on calming
Speaker 2: down her stress.
Speaker 1: Responses with that tapping is literally I mean, obviously you
Speaker 1: have to know a lot more about it than what
Speaker 1: I'm about to say, but it's like literally tapping.
Speaker 2: Your body, right, it's like self actually sort.
Speaker 1: Of lower your cortisol, like calm yourself down. Is that correct?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's one of the things it does, and it
Speaker 2: can It can process ultraumatic memories as well. So if
Speaker 2: this woman has some particular events with her mum that
Speaker 2: she's really stinging, what it can do is car down
Speaker 2: some of the stress chemicals that pop up when she
Speaker 2: thinks about those times, so that she's not It's not
Speaker 2: a magic wand it doesn't whitewash things, but it can
Speaker 2: help restore calm versus the reactiveness that she's experiencing, so
Speaker 2: it can help her go in with a more calming
Speaker 2: type of feeling. I would also say to her if
Speaker 2: she chooses to do this, is to take her time,
Speaker 2: you know, to make not trying to rush it. To
Speaker 2: say to her mom, you know, I think the letters
Speaker 2: is probably a good idea because it gives her something
Speaker 2: that she can but I think she should read it.
Speaker 2: That would be my instincts to say, Mum, I've got
Speaker 2: something that you know, kind of difficult for me to share.
Speaker 2: How would it be for me to for you to
Speaker 2: just listen to me while I share this and perhaps
Speaker 2: hold my hand if that's something that feels appropriate, and
Speaker 2: just really try and create that calm atmosphere in the room.
Speaker 1: With her.
Speaker 2: So that her mom doesn't just think she's popping in
Speaker 2: for a cup of tea or something. I know, because
Speaker 2: that's she knows what she wants to express to her mum.
Speaker 2: Her mom may be someone that has buried a lot
Speaker 2: of stuff that might have been a coping mechanism of hers,
Speaker 2: and you never know what's going to come out. I
Speaker 2: always think of this conversation. I don't know if you
Speaker 2: know the psychologist Steve Bitoff. He's written a lot of books.
Speaker 2: We listened to a conversation with him, a podcast with
Speaker 2: him probably five years ago or so. He shared a
Speaker 2: really interesting anecdote and it went like this, his father
Speaker 2: when he was dying. So I don't know how old
Speaker 2: Steve is, He's probably sixties or so. He grew up
Speaker 2: in a rough northern town of England, I can't remember
Speaker 2: which one, and his dad, on his deathbed in his
Speaker 2: eighties or whatever, was really sad and crying while he
Speaker 2: talked to Steve about this memory he had, which was
Speaker 2: when Steve was a newborn baby, his father took him
Speaker 2: for a walk through the town to give his mom
Speaker 2: a break. He was mocked mercilessly in the talent. Who
Speaker 2: do you think you are? You're a mammy or I
Speaker 2: don't know, just like investigated. Yes, so I guess what.
Speaker 2: He never did it again. And he was really crying
Speaker 2: to Steve because he was apologizing, saying, I think it
Speaker 2: really affected my relationship with you. So Steve grew up
Speaker 2: with whatever beliefs he had that his dad didn't want
Speaker 2: to be around him or whatever. But in actual fact
Speaker 2: was this memory was so awful for Steve's dad that
Speaker 2: he didn't connect. So things happen and it can cause disconnection.
Speaker 2: And I think that her mum may have a different
Speaker 2: viewpoint to her. She might not agree with her version
Speaker 2: of events. We don't know, but I think for any
Speaker 2: human being, if there's something still there, then it's worth sharing.
Speaker 2: If it didn't bother her, it wouldn't be sitting with
Speaker 2: her all these years later. And I think alongside the
Speaker 2: grief of her mum going into her twilight years, is
Speaker 2: it's common for the type of grief of what I
Speaker 2: imagined would be.
Speaker 1: It just wasn't for sure. It's a different kind of
Speaker 1: grieving and just very quickly to kind of finish that off.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a heartbreaking dialect when my heart goes
Speaker 1: out to her. But do you often hear people say
Speaker 1: you don't want to have regrets when they're gone. Now,
Speaker 1: grief is a difficult beast anyway, no matter what happens,
Speaker 1: no matter what your relationship was like. But would you
Speaker 1: subscribe to that? You're like, it will be easier, and
Speaker 1: we're not Easier might not be the right word, but
Speaker 1: it will be better if you get this out.
Speaker 2: I always think, yeah, I do. I think it's given
Speaker 2: the two choices, I think that it's probably a good
Speaker 2: one to walk through that door. And I think that, yeah,
Speaker 2: if I was working with her, you feel nervous, Like
Speaker 2: you'd feel nervous about doing it. But what's the worst
Speaker 2: that can happen. The worst that can happen is probably
Speaker 2: her mum being cranky with her. But that's happened anyway. Yeah, true,
Speaker 2: And so it might lead to it might lead to
Speaker 2: good things. You just you don't know that he's in
Speaker 2: the possibility pool as well. People often think of the
Speaker 2: worst case scenario something it might be beautiful, but it
Speaker 2: might be beautiful and a mom might actually give her
Speaker 2: some insights or say sorry. She might actually share as well,
Speaker 2: like we're opening that door. People are scared of sharing.
Speaker 2: Not not the first mom. But by sharing you're in
Speaker 2: a world, you do offer that opportunity to others to
Speaker 2: share their inner worlds, and I think that's a beautiful thing.
Speaker 1: Up next, Jackie offers advice to a woman whose daughter
Speaker 1: disapproves of her new boyfriend so much so she stopped
Speaker 1: responding to messages and refuses to see her. Okay, this
Speaker 1: one is a bit different. This slister is in a
Speaker 1: happy place, but it's not making her family very happy.
Speaker 1: So I'm fifty five and I've been divorced from the
Speaker 1: father of my daughters for eight years. My good are
Speaker 1: now twenty five and twenty seven and off doing their
Speaker 1: own thing, but we've always been close and still see
Speaker 1: each other a lot until now. For the past year,
Speaker 1: I've been in a relationship with a man who is
Speaker 1: ten years younger than me. We met on dating apps
Speaker 1: when I decided it was time to get back out
Speaker 1: there when the kids were gone. Most of the guys
Speaker 1: my age on there were painful. For this man, I
Speaker 1: won't say his name is lovely. We never thought it
Speaker 1: would be serious, but it's become like that. We're talking
Speaker 1: about moving in together. My youngest though, hates him, not
Speaker 1: even him really, but the idea of him, and ever
Speaker 1: since I told her we were seeing each other exclusively
Speaker 1: and making plans for the future, she's just shut down
Speaker 1: on me. She told me it's embarrassing. She told me
Speaker 1: he's using me. And now our listener says, I'm not
Speaker 1: sure what for. It's not like we've got lots of
Speaker 1: money and he has his own good job and everything.
Speaker 1: She met him a couple of times and was extremely rude,
Speaker 1: and now she's just caught me off, telling me she
Speaker 1: can't watch. She's not calling answering my messages. She missed
Speaker 1: her sister's birthday barbecue because he was coming. I don't
Speaker 1: want to lose my daughter, of course, but don't I
Speaker 1: have a right to be happy?
Speaker 2: Wow, Well, poor lady.
Speaker 1: I know she's on this nice math Yeah yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: or at least we think he's nice. We don't know that.
Speaker 2: She so sounds happy.
Speaker 1: It sounds what do you think?
Speaker 2: It sounds to me like the daughter's got some issue
Speaker 2: deeper than this guy. It sounds like she said she
Speaker 2: went on dating apps after the children had left home.
Speaker 2: So they've been divorced eight years.
Speaker 1: It was time to get out there when the kids
Speaker 1: were gone.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's not like she was dating. It sounds
Speaker 2: like she's only been dating for the last year or two, Like,
Speaker 2: I don't know if this is the first guy she met,
Speaker 2: so i'd be yeah, i'd be interested in looking at
Speaker 2: her daughter's reaction. The youngest ones to the divorce. So
Speaker 2: even though they were older than many children are in divorce,
Speaker 2: it still affects people. I've had clients in their adulthood
Speaker 2: being really affected by their parents' divorcing. And so I
Speaker 2: don't know what happened in the divorce, what the divorce
Speaker 2: was like, but I'd say that's probably really key to
Speaker 2: think about also her own relationships, like maybe she's had
Speaker 2: a break up herself and is in pain, and just
Speaker 2: the idea of relationships seems off limits. I mean, this
Speaker 2: guy's ten years younger, but ten years is not that much.
Speaker 1: It's not that much at fifty five, so it's forty five.
Speaker 1: It's not like he's twenty twenty, Yeah, exactly, I mean,
Speaker 1: which would be just also five, But I can imagine
Speaker 1: why it would be more confronted, Like he's still twenty
Speaker 1: years older than her daughter.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's still way older, and it's not personal to
Speaker 2: him because she's only met him a couple of times
Speaker 2: in the time she met him, she was really rude,
Speaker 2: so she was shut down. She's really engaging with him.
Speaker 2: It's sad that it's evolving into her missing like her
Speaker 2: sister's birthday. I wonder how her sister feels about that,
Speaker 2: And I wonder how her sister feels about mum and
Speaker 2: mom's boyfriend as well. She doesn't mention that.
Speaker 1: I mean, it sounds like she doesn't have as much
Speaker 1: of a problem if she was happy to have. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's interesting because I mean, I know that we shouldn't
Speaker 1: say it should really here, but so her daughter missed
Speaker 1: the barbecue because he was coming home. Do you think
Speaker 1: that our listener should keep these things separate? Do you
Speaker 1: think that so that it doesn't rock the boat, or
Speaker 1: do you think that at some point that bundaid's got
Speaker 1: to come off?
Speaker 2: So look that it would probably the other sister would
Speaker 2: probably want to have some input in that too, because
Speaker 2: she might get along really well with him and then
Speaker 2: want like her birthday. But yeah, I mean, look, there's
Speaker 2: a space for that. There is a space to connect
Speaker 2: with her daughter separately. Absolutely, I think that children need
Speaker 2: to have that focus in their adulthood. So if the
Speaker 2: mum was taking her partner everywhere, that might be irritating
Speaker 2: to her both her kids. So yeah, I do think
Speaker 2: that there should be some separation there. But I also
Speaker 2: think that this daughter's got stuff going on that mum
Speaker 2: should explore with her and just talk to her gently
Speaker 2: again setting context, come, you know, and I really want
Speaker 2: to understand what's going on. Sounds to me like it's
Speaker 2: the idea of mum being in a relationship at all,
Speaker 2: not necessarily the age. I could be wrong there, but
Speaker 2: she's used the word embarrassing, but could that be that, Yeah,
Speaker 2: mum met him on a dating app and maybe she's
Speaker 2: on dating apps and oh my god, you know, mum's
Speaker 2: in my world.
Speaker 1: And it can be confronting for adult kids to think
Speaker 1: of their parents having sex.
Speaker 2: Yeah involved, Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1: Having like falling in love and also just being out
Speaker 1: there messy humans. Do you think because this is in
Speaker 1: different areas, this comes up a bit about like we're
Speaker 1: so women in particular, we're so invested in being good mothers,
Speaker 1: Like if we are, if we are good mothers, I
Speaker 1: guess that like does that job ever stop in a way,
Speaker 1: like should we you sacrifice a lot for your kids. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we all sacrifice a lot for our kids, and we
Speaker 1: sacrifice if we're doing it right, I guess, and we
Speaker 1: sacrifice a lot for them when they're little. Does that
Speaker 1: Is there a point in which your kid's opinion shouldn't
Speaker 1: really Yeah, look, I do think so.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think their opinions are important, but I
Speaker 2: shouldn't don't think it should dictate what she does. She's
Speaker 2: not hurting anyone. She sounds pretty grounded, not swept off
Speaker 2: her feet by You know, they've been together for a year.
Speaker 2: They're not moving in together. Five minutes later, they're still
Speaker 2: not moving in together yet, but they're talking about it.
Speaker 2: He's got a good job, she's not. No, it doesn't
Speaker 2: sound like that at all. Obviously he's not going to
Speaker 2: be a step dad or anything like that. You know
Speaker 2: that that ship is how the kids are grown up.
Speaker 2: So to your point, I do think mums are people,
Speaker 2: and so she's got to look at what brings her happiness.
Speaker 2: Her kids are not. They're off doing their own life,
Speaker 2: which they should be. That's that's fantastic, and mom should
Speaker 2: be able to have some time to herself and if
Speaker 2: that includes dating and having this wonderful relationship. Then yeah,
Speaker 2: I do think that she should enjoy that. But to also,
Speaker 2: I mean, this might sound strange, but I think family
Speaker 2: therapy could be an idea for her if it really
Speaker 2: gets stuck, this guy is really going to have a
Speaker 2: future with her, Maybe the mum and both sisters go
Speaker 2: to therapy together and that gives everyone a chance to
Speaker 2: have a mediated type of space and time to express
Speaker 2: what's going on. And the therapists are usually pretty pretty
Speaker 2: interested in relationships, and so it wouldn't just be about
Speaker 2: this guy like, they'd be looking a bit deeper. I
Speaker 2: would think. So, if she's really stuck, that's certainly an option,
Speaker 2: But I think some honest conversations do need to be
Speaker 2: had about why she's reacting so much. She might be
Speaker 2: really devastated that mum's moved on, because she might just
Speaker 2: her dad. We don't know whether your dad is happy
Speaker 2: or not, and maybe maybe you know dad's depressed and
Speaker 2: not coping. Maybe she sees it as mum still having
Speaker 2: to look after him, which is not the case. But
Speaker 2: it's it's yeah, there's just more there. It's not I
Speaker 2: try it for for the listener to try and keep
Speaker 2: it in perspective that this can't be about him because
Speaker 2: she doesn't even know him. But she's not willing to
Speaker 2: entertain the thought of him yet. And I wouldn't force it,
Speaker 2: like I would be slow in terms of trying to
Speaker 2: get on them again. She might not ever really like
Speaker 2: him as a person, but that's and that could be awkward.
Speaker 2: Of course. Ideally should find it more comfortable to the
Speaker 2: idea of her mum being with another man, and that
Speaker 2: that's if it's not him, it's going to be somebody else,
Speaker 2: So to try and just come to terms with that.
Speaker 2: But it may be brought up the reality that their parents'
Speaker 2: marriage is really over. And I know that sounds strange
Speaker 2: because it's been eight years and she's twenty five, not fi,
Speaker 2: but it can still what people's will when parents divorce
Speaker 2: it even at older age, and she's maybe just coming
Speaker 2: to terms with that. And A is not that long
Speaker 2: to come to terms with the reality of things.
Speaker 1: And do you think that if they I mean maybe
Speaker 1: they have who knows. If they talk about it and
Speaker 1: they're fighting about it, it's going to make it worse, right,
Speaker 1: So that's why you're suggesting like that family therapy might
Speaker 1: be good or at least have conversations with in a
Speaker 1: calm way with around or.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so, And it might be that they
Speaker 2: have an auntie or someone like that that can help.
Speaker 2: Just listen to everyone, Like she doesn't want to shut
Speaker 2: her daughter down, but she doesn't want to be dictated
Speaker 2: by her daughter either, I would think so to honor
Speaker 2: the daughter's feelings would be to listen to her and
Speaker 2: look at how what where the pain is, what's what's
Speaker 2: going on? How can she support her through that? What
Speaker 2: does she feel comfortable with at this stage? And be
Speaker 2: honest and authentic, like I love this guy, I do
Speaker 2: want to be with this guy. How can we support
Speaker 2: everyone's needs and take it from there? It could be
Speaker 2: a slow road, so you have some patience, Mum.
Speaker 1: It's like you've got to honor her feelings but also
Speaker 1: live her life.
Speaker 2: I've got Yeah, I seen that year's you know, she
Speaker 2: hasn't done it five minutes later and they're not. You
Speaker 2: know a lot of women do, and that's that's that's
Speaker 2: their choices. But it's for whatever reason this this daughter's
Speaker 2: having a reaction, a big reaction, big.
Speaker 1: Reaction, big feelings. Jackie. Generally, when because as we've said, like,
Speaker 1: families have a lot of complicated dynamics. When would you
Speaker 1: recommend that people do seek professional help for this kind
Speaker 1: of stuff? And is it sometimes just too far gone?
Speaker 2: Look, it can be some people do choose to cease
Speaker 2: contact with family, and it's always a really big decision.
Speaker 2: Often there in cases where perhaps there's been some abusive
Speaker 2: parenting there and people have tried to either live with that,
Speaker 2: they've had to live with that for a while, and
Speaker 2: they've had to turn up to family events and then
Speaker 2: they start to go, I just can't do it anymore.
Speaker 2: Perhaps they've had their own children and they don't want to.
Speaker 2: And I'm not talking about really sexual abuse, although that
Speaker 2: does happen, but just abusiveness in different ways.
Speaker 1: I've seen people in my life who when they have kids,
Speaker 1: sometimes it makes them reflect on their own parenting, like
Speaker 1: how they were parented.
Speaker 2: Usually doesn't really bad. It can be quite triggered, yes,
Speaker 2: and in it like.
Speaker 1: I can't believe my mum said that whatever it was.
Speaker 2: Yeah, often these light bulbs go off like, oh, wow,
Speaker 2: I'd never do that with my child. I can't believe
Speaker 2: I experienced that. And also seeing children is really interesting
Speaker 2: because they're tiny and vulnerable. So often we've had thoughts
Speaker 2: about our childhood, but childhood kind of gets lumped in
Speaker 2: this I don't know, in a lump. So but when
Speaker 2: you see your tiny little two year old or four
Speaker 2: year old or whatever, you realize how tiny and gorgeous
Speaker 2: and vulnerable little children are and if they were being
Speaker 2: hit or I don't know all the things that do happen.
Speaker 2: So sometimes you know, I am working through with clients
Speaker 2: making that decision, and you know, with any therapy, I'd
Speaker 2: never tell them what to do. But sometimes it's my
Speaker 2: place to support them in honoring their own needs and
Speaker 2: to seize contact whatever that looks like. Sometimes it does
Speaker 2: mean still turning up to family events, but they might
Speaker 2: not just not have any interaction in between, like weddings
Speaker 2: and funerals and all those things are pretty hard to avoid.
Speaker 2: Sometimes sometimes it's for a period of time, so some
Speaker 2: people might just cut off from their family for a
Speaker 2: year or three years or something to recover and heal
Speaker 2: and find their boundaries so that they may be able
Speaker 2: to be in the be in a space with their
Speaker 2: parents or family, but know their own boundaries better and
Speaker 2: know how to plan escape not escape roads. That sounds dramatic,
Speaker 2: but like to plan to.
Speaker 1: Not find themselves in a really heightened, tricky stance.
Speaker 2: And to feel empowered to go. You can't talk to
Speaker 2: me like that, or I won't be talked to like that.
Speaker 2: I broke my own rule there put the U in front.
Speaker 2: But you know I won't be talking to you like
Speaker 2: that anymore. I'm leaving and people can change. They can.
Speaker 2: I'm optimistic with that, but some some people, I don't know.
Speaker 2: Some people can't. In terms of when to seek family therapy,
Speaker 2: I would say, you know, your family are really important.
Speaker 2: They're really important key figures in your life. And if
Speaker 2: there's a point of clashing or difference that you've tried
Speaker 2: to talk about, you don't have to have tried to
Speaker 2: talk about. Some people are just really nervous to talk
Speaker 2: to their family a strangers that may seem about big things.
Speaker 2: And what therapy does is it offers your space, so
Speaker 2: it's not necessarily things don't necessarily have to be broken
Speaker 2: to come to therapy either. People often have that misconception
Speaker 2: in their mind even for individual therapy, like oh, it
Speaker 2: must be really really bad if I'm going to go
Speaker 2: see a therapist. It's not that at all. Giving you
Speaker 2: time out of the world in space with someone with
Speaker 2: a professional who's done a lot of work and reading
Speaker 2: and research, but also just really got life experiences from
Speaker 2: their other clients about how people operate and what might
Speaker 2: be triggered and helping people, helping illuminate what might be
Speaker 2: happening for the other person. So say that mum suggests therapy,
Speaker 2: it's not necessarily therapy for her, it's therapy for the
Speaker 2: relationship between her and her daughter, and so the therapist
Speaker 2: won't take sides as such. It's more about going this
Speaker 2: is what I'm saying going on here, and this is
Speaker 2: looking at how to protect that and nurture that relationship
Speaker 2: between whether it's two people or whether it's four people
Speaker 2: or whatever it might be. I think people, if they're stuck,
Speaker 2: give it a go, like, you know, do something different,
Speaker 2: change the space, change the outcome, and maybe others in
Speaker 2: their family would welcome it because they don't know what
Speaker 2: to do either. Some people do react and go no, no,
Speaker 2: I'm not going to see when I am so, you know,
Speaker 2: and that may stay or they may change their mind.
Speaker 2: But I think it's something you can access and people to,
Speaker 2: you know, often talk to people about sibling. You know,
Speaker 2: getting therapy between siblings things like that can be really
Speaker 2: really enlightening and useful, and.
Speaker 1: My god, I can't imagine the things that would come
Speaker 1: up and sibling therapy.
Speaker 2: It's fantastic. I actually did it with my sister six
Speaker 2: years or something, and we're really close and we've always
Speaker 2: been close, and we were close all through therapy as well,
Speaker 2: but it was it just got us even deeper and
Speaker 2: closer and more amazing just uncovered. You know, it just
Speaker 2: gave us some space to air some things that some
Speaker 2: really you know, we had a lack of resources in
Speaker 2: our family. Beautiful parents, but you know, they had a
Speaker 2: lot going on, and so it gave us a chance
Speaker 2: to air how it was for us growing up really
Speaker 2: and which we had talked about. But it was just
Speaker 2: it was just a different space. I think. I think
Speaker 2: we're both interested in life and people and diving deep.
Speaker 2: So we probably could have done it just me and her,
Speaker 2: but we went for six sessions, I think, and we
Speaker 2: were so grateful, Like it was just it was really lovely.
Speaker 2: So it was a really positive experience to do. It
Speaker 2: wasn't scary. Well maybe we're britten over in the beginning,
Speaker 2: but it was. It was, and we loved each other deeply,
Speaker 2: like that connection was still was always there. It wasn't.
Speaker 2: We weren't on the brink of separating or anything like that,
Speaker 2: but it just helped us breathe a bit better. I
Speaker 2: think it's lovely. Yeah, it was good. That was really good.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Jackie. That's been exceptionally helpful.
Speaker 2: Absolute pleasure.
Speaker 1: Well, I say it's been helpful. I'm not the listeners,
Speaker 1: but I imagine it's been helpful. I've really enjoyed having
Speaker 1: those conversations, and I.
Speaker 2: Hope they get something out of it, and you know,
Speaker 2: there's there's more that they can explore. I think it's
Speaker 2: often just sitting and reflecting and diving deep doesn't hurt.
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for doing being here with
Speaker 1: us today. Obviously we'll put links in our show notes
Speaker 1: to where people can find out more about what you
Speaker 1: do and where they can look for help themselves. But
Speaker 1: I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, my pleasure, Jackie. Thanks.
Speaker 1: Okay, if you enjoyed that common about non perfect families
Speaker 1: and Jackie's smart advice, may I invite you, my mid friends,
Speaker 1: to scroll back and listen to one of my very
Speaker 1: favorite episodes of Mid with the amazing writer Caroline Baum.
Speaker 1: She writes about her mum. I stole the term vinegary
Speaker 1: mother from Caroline in the intro. Today she writes about
Speaker 1: when her mom moved in with her late in life
Speaker 1: and everything kind of went well to shit, let's be honest,
Speaker 1: and Caroline talks so beautifully about it. She's written a
Speaker 1: memoir about this part of her life. It's a great episode.
Speaker 1: If you want to scroll back to season four and
Speaker 1: find the interview with Caroline Baum, I think you'll find
Speaker 1: it very interesting. The executive producer of this episode of
Speaker 1: Mid is Niama Brown. The producer is Charlie Blackman, and
Speaker 1: there's been audio production from Jacob Brown. And if you
Speaker 1: have anything you would like to tell us about MID,
Speaker 1: a dilemma you would like us to answer, please feel
Speaker 1: free to dm me on Instagram or to dm the
Speaker 1: Mid by MoMA Mia account, or you can even email
Speaker 1: us at help me at mamamea dot com dot au.
Speaker 1: Until I hear from you, We'll see you next week. Bye.