Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia out Loud. It's what women are actually talking about.
Speaker 2: On Wednesday, the nineteenth of June. I'm Holly Wainwright.
Speaker 1: I'm mea Friedman.
Speaker 3: I'm Emmurnham filling in for Jesse. You can also listen
Speaker 3: to me on our daily podcast, The Spill Listen.
Speaker 2: On Monday, we did a segment with Gemma who was
Speaker 2: filling in for Jesse on Monday, Gemma Bath, and it
Speaker 2: was about intergenerational wealth, so specifically about whether or not
Speaker 2: it's ever been harder to be about thirty in Australia.
Speaker 2: And to say that it popped off that segment in
Speaker 2: terms of feedback, there's a little bit of an understatement.
Speaker 2: The discussions around it are still going on. There's some
Speaker 2: mud slinging, there's some like we did it tougher than
Speaker 2: new conversations. Anyway, Clearly you.
Speaker 3: Guys are very interested in it.
Speaker 2: We will talk about it again, but thank you a
Speaker 2: few feedback and if you haven't listened to it, go
Speaker 2: and listen to it.
Speaker 3: The other episode that's popping off, as you said, Holly
Speaker 3: in the Outluders group is We did a group therapy
Speaker 3: episode last week. We helped an outlouder deal with a
Speaker 3: dilemma about her daughter, who's twenty three. She had a
Speaker 3: terrible night out on her birthday. It involved address and
Speaker 3: involved her boss and a few gross men.
Speaker 1: And nothing feels better than a group therapy session. So
Speaker 1: we want to hear from you. If there's a problem
Speaker 1: that you think we can help you solve, you can
Speaker 1: send us your dilemma by clicking the link in our
Speaker 1: show notes and recording us a voice note. You don't
Speaker 1: have to give your name, but we want to hear
Speaker 1: you tell your problem in your own words.
Speaker 2: On today's show, the most mysterious jam in the world
Speaker 2: is Megan Markle, disorganized af or a marketing genius an investigation. Also,
Speaker 2: alphas are out, fuck boys are out, even rodents are out.
Speaker 2: Now apparently the most attractive energy a hetero man can
Speaker 2: put is daddy. And are you creeped out yet? And
Speaker 2: is there someone in your life who loves to monologue
Speaker 2: at you? If so, there's a way to shut them up.
Speaker 2: And MV knows what it is. But first me a freedman.
Speaker 1: In case you missed it, justin Timberlake's been arrested.
Speaker 2: I hadn't missed it because who doesn't love a celebrity
Speaker 2: mug shot.
Speaker 1: He's forty two and he is in trouble with the
Speaker 1: law because he was drink driving in the Haptins. Not cool.
Speaker 1: The funniest part of this story because drink driving isn't funny.
Speaker 1: But the police officer who pulled him over had no
Speaker 1: idea who he was.
Speaker 3: He was a gen z.
Speaker 1: Yes, it's true. So Timberlake claimed that he only had
Speaker 1: one martini and he was arrested and taken to the
Speaker 1: police station, where he refused to take a breath test.
Speaker 1: But before he was taken there, I don't know if
Speaker 1: you've seen some of those videos. In America, they don't
Speaker 1: have like random breath testing. You sort of go and
Speaker 1: do it back at the police station if you get arrested.
Speaker 1: They have these sobriety tests, like walking a straight line,
Speaker 1: answer these questions down and one foot touched you tip
Speaker 1: of your nose with your finger.
Speaker 3: That's quite embarrassing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're called field sobriety tests. He failed all of those,
Speaker 1: and according to a source. The officer said that, you know,
Speaker 1: Justin had said under his breath, this is going to
Speaker 1: ruin the tour because he's currently on a world tour.
Speaker 1: And the cop replied, what tour? And Justin said, the
Speaker 1: world tool where I dance and sing on the stage.
Speaker 1: Don't you know who I am?
Speaker 2: The cop did not know who he was.
Speaker 3: No, the cop would have genuinely been convinced that man
Speaker 3: is so intoxicated.
Speaker 1: Do you remember when this happened to Reese Witherspoon and
Speaker 1: she was like, don't you know who I am?
Speaker 2: It's not cool, It's never cool.
Speaker 1: Why do you think people are sort of gleeful about
Speaker 1: this story? Hold?
Speaker 2: The world is really keen to turn on Justin Timberlake,
Speaker 2: and it's not really clear why except we've got an
Speaker 2: ick right. And it's somewhat Brittany related because when she
Speaker 2: wrote her book and it came out, she spoke about
Speaker 2: him cheating on her. She spoke about the abortion that
Speaker 2: she had that she didn't want to have, and kind
Speaker 2: of righted the narrative that it was always him who'd
Speaker 2: been wronged the Crime River, and.
Speaker 1: He made the film clip Crime River that made it
Speaker 1: seem like she'd cheated on him, which I think she
Speaker 1: also did. But then it was Janet Jackson thing. I
Speaker 1: think it was where he was performing in the super
Speaker 1: Bowl with her and then he ripped off her top
Speaker 1: and her nipple was exposed and she got canceled, but
Speaker 1: he didn't, even though it was clearly something that they
Speaker 1: planned together. It was a stunt.
Speaker 2: And then he cheated on his wife allegedly, allegedly, and
Speaker 2: so people are very ready to turn on him, and
Speaker 2: he is back with new music which is actually quite banging.
Speaker 3: I have to say I like music.
Speaker 2: I don't mind justin Timberlake's music at all. But we've
Speaker 2: all decided he's a bit of a dick. So I
Speaker 2: think there's a lot of glee in seeing this. I
Speaker 2: just need to say one Martini.
Speaker 1: Is a lot.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of alcohol and proper martini not driving
Speaker 2: a car. I'm always really confused when celebrities get arrested. Duy,
Speaker 2: because if I was rich and famous, the number one
Speaker 2: thing I would have as a driver because I would
Speaker 2: want to go out and drink my Martini's in the Hamptons.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know why he decided to drive. He
Speaker 3: did say he was following friends in his twenty twenty
Speaker 3: five BMW.
Speaker 1: And he went through a stop sign and then he
Speaker 1: swerved onto the wrong side. He killed someone, he could
Speaker 1: have injured himself. Like not cool.
Speaker 3: What I am really interested in is the camera they
Speaker 3: used to take this mugshot, because it looks beautiful. It's
Speaker 3: so high quality. It looks like one of our Mummia headshots.
Speaker 1: I wonder if you can request filters these days.
Speaker 2: Probably people, there is a jam in the world so
Speaker 2: rare and exquisite that money cannot buy it. And it's
Speaker 2: really pissing me off because, as regular out loud as
Speaker 2: will know, I live with an award winning scone maker,
Speaker 2: Yes he I do. What does a scone needs needs
Speaker 2: jam Brent's country show Triumphing Scones deserve the finest condiments,
Speaker 2: and apparently they are to be found in Montecito and California.
Speaker 2: They are handmade in a multimillion dollar mansion by an
Speaker 2: actual duchess. And it has been three months already and
Speaker 2: yet no jam for sale. I'm talking, of course, about
Speaker 2: American riviera orchard, or as we like to call it
Speaker 2: in an irritating moment Mirror out Loud in joke American
Speaker 2: Riviera Orchard now Duchess Meghan of Sussex's home brand. This week,
Speaker 2: my suspense was extended with the news that the lucky
Speaker 2: influencers who received the first batch of Megan's Jam have
Speaker 2: just got another jar, which just seems unfair when I
Speaker 2: still haven't got any. And this is raspberry to add
Speaker 2: to the strawberry, which is not exactly groundbreaking, but okay, Meghan.
Speaker 2: The challenge of how to style their very special Jam
Speaker 2: in the announcing Instagram post was thrown down to Nacho Fugeris,
Speaker 2: who is a polo player who's really good mates with
Speaker 2: Harry and Meg's and he chose to post it along
Speaker 2: with a bombshell hint that there are also dog biscuits
Speaker 2: on safe. Oh goodye, I thought, And I went straight
Speaker 2: to the source, American Riviera Orchard, where I have already
Speaker 2: months ago put in my email to be alerted when
Speaker 2: the jam is on release.
Speaker 1: Nothing.
Speaker 2: Nothing, nothing, I've had no email from that. I haven't
Speaker 2: even had a thanks for subscribing email from them. No,
Speaker 2: I've had nothing. Poor user journey, I know. And then
Speaker 2: so I went straight to the Instagram account. I'm like,
Speaker 2: surely they're posting about the Jam. It must be coming
Speaker 2: nothing still just one of those what do you call those?
Speaker 1: Those collarge logo they're very five six years ago March.
Speaker 2: It was March that we first got told about the jam.
Speaker 2: It's now mid June.
Speaker 1: Holly's got a diary note. She's making temporaneous.
Speaker 2: Notes Mia, why can't I buy the damn Jam?
Speaker 1: I have one question before I tell you, is she
Speaker 1: reposting from that account? What the other celebrities she's not? Okay? Think?
Speaker 1: So here's the strategy. This is known as the sort
Speaker 1: of tease warm up period where you're trying to build buzz,
Speaker 1: and the other thing that you're trying to do is
Speaker 1: build your list and build your following. So you're trying
Speaker 1: to get followers and you're trying to Even more valuable
Speaker 1: than followers is to sign up for your email list,
Speaker 1: because it means that when you're ready to open the
Speaker 1: doors and make your jam freely available to the PLEDs
Speaker 1: like us, you can email them direct and you don't
Speaker 1: have to worry about an algorithm who's going to reach you.
Speaker 1: You can just it's very valuable having the email addresses
Speaker 1: of prospective customers, much more than just having people follow
Speaker 1: you on Instagram. That's also important, But the more important
Speaker 1: thing is the email addresses. Now to build anticipation like
Speaker 1: a movie trailer coming out right. So when you've got
Speaker 1: a product that you're launching, this is not a path
Speaker 1: that's unfamiliar to a lot of people who've started businesses.
Speaker 1: You send something out to influencers in the hope that
Speaker 1: they'll post it. What's interesting about this is that it
Speaker 1: works magnificently in a two way street because the famous
Speaker 1: people that she's sending it to, it's not like them
Speaker 1: being sent some toothpaste or ordinary dog biscuits or ordinary jam.
Speaker 1: Why would they post it, right, Because if they did
Speaker 1: post it, all the benefit and all the exposure goes
Speaker 1: to whoever sent it to them, whoever's paying them to
Speaker 1: post it. Could this be a paid campaign? Unlikely given
Speaker 1: the level of the celebrities involved, But because Megan is
Speaker 1: who she is, if they post the jam on their
Speaker 1: pages and their stories, it will be picked up by
Speaker 1: the Daily Mail, by media worldwide, so that then helps
Speaker 1: them build their followers. It's a beautiful partnership, a beautiful
Speaker 1: what's called a flywheel in product marketing. They'll get more
Speaker 1: jam and they'll get more jam. Now my concern also
Speaker 1: as a lady startup someone who starts runs her own
Speaker 1: business and has advised many women on how to start businesses.
Speaker 1: When I look at the packaging of the jam, and
Speaker 1: I think the dog biscuits as well. These are very artisanal,
Speaker 1: which is I think the point of the label, and
Speaker 1: artisanal's kind of like handmade. The problem is that that's
Speaker 1: very hard to scale. You need someone to hand cut
Speaker 1: the muslin or the raffia and to hand tie it
Speaker 1: around and to hand label the jars of jam. That's
Speaker 1: very hard to scale. So you can do that for
Speaker 1: fifty and because each jam is labeled one of fifty,
Speaker 1: what about when Holly and I are let loose well polymore,
Speaker 1: then suddenly she's got to wrap five thousand, fifty thousand
Speaker 1: pieces of muslin around a jam jar and send me
Speaker 1: doing that.
Speaker 3: She's got kids.
Speaker 2: I love the idea that in the kitchen him on
Speaker 2: to see it. Now.
Speaker 1: I know that she's not doing it, and no one
Speaker 1: would think that she was. But even if that's the
Speaker 1: level of packaging, someone has to do that, and the
Speaker 1: cost of having someone do that on a product that
Speaker 1: you can't charge that much for. I mean, you can't
Speaker 1: charge five hundred dollars for it. The margin of profit
Speaker 1: is tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny tiny.
Speaker 2: Here's my question though, right everybody wants to know how
Speaker 2: much this jam is going to cost, because, as you've said,
Speaker 2: like very high value, what would.
Speaker 1: You pay for it?
Speaker 3: And shipping as well.
Speaker 1: Shipping to Australia?
Speaker 2: What would you pay for it in this economy, I'm
Speaker 2: not paying a lot of money for jar.
Speaker 1: Pay twenty dollars for Megan's Jam.
Speaker 2: I might pay twenty dollars.
Speaker 1: What about another ten dollars for shipping?
Speaker 3: If my nation to their charity.
Speaker 2: If I well, there will definitely be a charity bit
Speaker 2: when they release this, because there's no way they can
Speaker 2: just be seen to be literally making money jam. They
Speaker 2: will be. There will be a charity component, But it
Speaker 2: really does. But if I did spend thirty dollars on
Speaker 2: a jar of Megan's Jam, apart from having to have
Speaker 2: a very good hard look at myself in the mirror.
Speaker 1: I would be guarding that fucking joy.
Speaker 2: If any of my children came near that jam, I
Speaker 2: would chop off their little chubby fingers. But my question
Speaker 2: about the marketing genius here me and you're the expert.
Speaker 2: As you've said, that makes a lot of sense. We've
Speaker 2: just said, but when does Fomo just become like they
Speaker 2: haven't got.
Speaker 3: Their shit together?
Speaker 2: And that's exactly three months and no new messaging from
Speaker 2: the actual brand, no more teasing from the actual brand.
Speaker 3: It just feels a bit.
Speaker 1: See. My belief, based on nothing but experience and anecdotes,
Speaker 1: is that you you have to get that lead period, right, because,
Speaker 1: as you say, people just forget. I think nothing that
Speaker 1: she does is ever gonna need more buzz because there's
Speaker 1: just going to be I mean, money for Jam is
Speaker 1: the headlines everywhere. And when we said twenty dollars, imagine
Speaker 1: twenty dollars US like, that's kind of the least she
Speaker 1: can charge, right.
Speaker 2: Forty dollars Imagine the forty dollars Jam.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I know that when I'm watching a streamer and
Speaker 1: there's a promo for a feel I want to see
Speaker 1: or a new TV show, I want to watch it
Speaker 1: immediately because they're I've forgotten because I've seen twenty more ads.
Speaker 1: So I'm always like, keep the tees close to the
Speaker 1: actual time. That's not what everybody believes. I do think
Speaker 1: three months is quite a long time. But no doubt
Speaker 1: she's having production issues noiceuse everybody does.
Speaker 3: How would you feel if you guys get your jam
Speaker 3: and it's just a generic sticker label.
Speaker 2: Or imagine if it's just like normal supermarket jam. I
Speaker 2: think an AMaGA jar.
Speaker 3: Because I know, like in our industry, there's a lot
Speaker 3: of PR packages that go around, and the PR package
Speaker 3: always looks better than the actual product. So I don't
Speaker 3: think that's the product everyone's going to be getting.
Speaker 2: Are you excited about no?
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 3: I was upset that she didn't like lead with raspberry
Speaker 3: because I thought raspberry was the cooler fruit. But I
Speaker 3: think now she has to do raspberry because strawberries are
Speaker 3: out of season and she's waited too long, and I
Speaker 3: want fresh jam if I'm getting jams.
Speaker 2: You know what I love is I love seeing the
Speaker 2: people who she sent the first load to, Like some
Speaker 2: of them are very profresh influencers, and so they've got
Speaker 2: their shot really styled, and they're in a beautiful garden
Speaker 2: with lemons, And then some people are just trying really
Speaker 2: hard how to think of making jam look nice, and
Speaker 2: it's just a piece of bread with some jam smear
Speaker 2: on it and a couple of cut up strawberries like
Speaker 2: laying next to it in a sad way, and they're like, thanks, EM,
Speaker 2: I love you EM, just like jam.
Speaker 1: Is hard to style guys, Yeah, what's next? Blueberry?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 3: I'm thinking of BlackBerry.
Speaker 2: Oh.
Speaker 1: I like a BlackBerry jam. I'm not a fan of
Speaker 1: blueberry jam. Too sweet? Sweet? Do you want daily outloud access?
Speaker 1: Why wouldn't you? We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday
Speaker 1: exclusively for Mumm of Me Are subscribers Follow the link
Speaker 1: in the show notes to get us in your ears
Speaker 1: five days a week, and a huge thank you if
Speaker 1: you're already a subscriber. I saw a TikTok that's going
Speaker 1: viral this week, and I have questions about it for
Speaker 1: our gen z and single Lady correspondent.
Speaker 3: Single Lady correspondent.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so crim and Urlin, this whole thing is cringe.
Speaker 1: Just wait to you. We wait to I play the video.
Speaker 1: The voice you're about to hear is a guy called Kevin.
Speaker 1: He makes content online about relationships and personal growth for men.
Speaker 1: Is he qualified? Unlikely? Kind of irrelevant? He goes on
Speaker 1: to explain the quality that he's most attractive to a
Speaker 1: woman in a.
Speaker 4: Man Okay, so I think that more guys should be
Speaker 4: talking about this. I know women talk about it, but
Speaker 4: I'm not sure about the guys. But I fully, fully
Speaker 4: believe that the most attractive, just beautiful, like radiant confidence
Speaker 4: that a guy can have. It's not alpha energy, it's
Speaker 4: not cocky energy, it's not fuck boy energy. It is
Speaker 4: having daddy energy. Daddy energy is the most highly highly
Speaker 4: attractive energy that a guy can possess, not only just
Speaker 4: to women in general, but especially to the most high
Speaker 4: quality marriage material, most quote unquote perfect woman that exists,
Speaker 4: because daddy energy has the perfect balance of confidence, protection,
Speaker 4: and safety, and those are some of the highest qualities
Speaker 4: that a woman, specially of high value, wants to see
Speaker 4: in her man.
Speaker 1: I agree, Holly, doesn't she was making out loud as
Speaker 1: you count here. She was making vomiting noises while we
Speaker 1: were listening to that.
Speaker 2: I was particularly making vomiting noises though about him talking
Speaker 2: about high quality women, like please, are you.
Speaker 1: Not a high quality woman and venom? Can you explain
Speaker 1: what daddy energy is and is it about your actual daddy?
Speaker 1: Oh God, because that's creepy as.
Speaker 3: So he goes on to explain that there are three
Speaker 3: kind of components of embodying daddy. Energy, it's confidence, safety,
Speaker 3: and protection.
Speaker 1: Before we get to those, can you just explain to
Speaker 1: me the internet usage of the word daddy, because it's
Speaker 1: become a bit of a thing that some people might
Speaker 1: not understand what daddy means because it's widely used on
Speaker 1: the Internet.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would describe it as first a gross word,
Speaker 3: but I would describe it as like being thirsty over
Speaker 3: like some really hot celebrity right now, So I would say,
Speaker 3: Paul mescal will be a daddy really.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So it's not about age, No, it's about like kind
Speaker 3: of how people, like so many women are thirsting over
Speaker 3: you as a man.
Speaker 1: One of the biggest podcasts in the world is called
Speaker 1: Call Her Daddy, So it's like, daddy, you're my daddy.
Speaker 1: It's like it was a pawn thing, right.
Speaker 3: I think with the podcast, it's like Alex Cooper like
Speaker 3: putting it, yes, averting it on women like I'm the daddy. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Energy is about power, right, So it's not just about
Speaker 2: I'm hot. It's a particular kind of hot.
Speaker 1: And I think it talks about those three. I don't
Speaker 1: think it's about thirst. I think it's what he said,
Speaker 1: it's about confidence, safety, and protection and power. That's what
Speaker 1: a daddy kind of is.
Speaker 3: But then when you have all that, then you end
Speaker 3: up thirsting for.
Speaker 1: That person, right that makes them hot?
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think also, which is weirdly descriptive, but
Speaker 3: he also talks about how encompassing like safety, protection and confidence.
Speaker 3: He uses the metaphor of like having a kingdom and
Speaker 3: you should protect the people within your kingdom, and I
Speaker 3: thought that was really weird.
Speaker 1: Do you remember during COVID everyone started having inappropriate thoughts
Speaker 1: about Josh Fridenberg the treasurer, because every time you turned
Speaker 1: the television on, he would be announcing how he was
Speaker 1: going to give you money. And when we talked about
Speaker 1: this on the show, how suddenly people were like, why
Speaker 1: am I finding Josh Bredenberg so sexy? We didn't do
Speaker 1: a thing on a mayor about it, and women were like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's because he had daddy energy.
Speaker 2: The examples under this video sort of explained it better
Speaker 2: for me. Well, there was a woman, for example, who said, yeah,
Speaker 2: I used to date a guy who insisted on sleeping
Speaker 2: on the outside nearest to the door because if an
Speaker 2: intruder came in, he would get to him before her.
Speaker 2: And she was like daddy. That's how I understand it,
Speaker 2: right to be the protective thing.
Speaker 3: And you don't like that?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: Why because you know how people always say like women
Speaker 2: and obviously this is a generic heterosexual stereotype, but one
Speaker 2: a man like their dad, right, Well, A that depends
Speaker 2: on whether or not your dad was any good. Yeah,
Speaker 2: But also we hate admitting that. I think a lot
Speaker 2: of women hate admitting that. But there's something very deep
Speaker 2: in there, right, But dads are all kinds of different.
Speaker 2: I didn't have one of those kind of dads who's like,
Speaker 2: I will protect you in the world. I will fight
Speaker 2: off you know, but what I'll take.
Speaker 1: Care of it? Not like I might fight off intruders.
Speaker 1: But what about just like dad? Can you sort it out?
Speaker 2: Nah, didn't have that kind of dad. And I know
Speaker 2: I'm being literal there, but that's because when I examine
Speaker 2: myself of why I don't find this attractive, it probably
Speaker 2: is that, right, It probably is that my model of
Speaker 2: a man is not that I've never really thought that
Speaker 2: that's like up there.
Speaker 1: On my list of values.
Speaker 2: If I was to write the things I find really
Speaker 2: attractive in a guy, protection is not up there.
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean that I.
Speaker 2: Can't see the appeal of it, Like sure, but for me,
Speaker 2: that's always come with a side of oppression. Like when
Speaker 2: a guy is protecting you, I feel like I'm smaller,
Speaker 2: and I don't want to be smaller.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I do.
Speaker 3: Yeah, really you think?
Speaker 2: So you're out there in the world when you listen
Speaker 2: to this picking and choosing your dudes or whatever much
Speaker 2: she said, like a manner.
Speaker 3: From my long list of men.
Speaker 2: When you hear this, do you like, yes, daddy energy
Speaker 2: is definitely what I'm looking for.
Speaker 3: Okay. I have complicated relationship with daddy energy because I
Speaker 3: have friends whose partners have daddy energy, and it's really
Speaker 3: obvious to me because I'm not in their kingdom, so
Speaker 3: they exclude me from their energy. I want all the
Speaker 3: men in my life to you have daddy energy, not
Speaker 3: just the partner i'm dating. I think when a guy
Speaker 3: embodies daddy energy, it's so obvious for the women's friends
Speaker 3: around her to see that because they see him being
Speaker 3: really protective and safe, but also excluding you from that.
Speaker 3: Like there will be times where I've gone out for
Speaker 3: drinks with friends and then the guy will like turn
Speaker 3: to his partner who's my friend, and be like, can
Speaker 3: I get you anything? Can I get you a drink?
Speaker 3: Can I get you dinner? And then he just leaves
Speaker 3: and I'm like, okay, I'll just go fuck myself then
Speaker 3: like I'm just sitting here. Or there'll be times where
Speaker 3: like my friend will be like, hey, can we give
Speaker 3: you a lift home? And he's just like rolling his
Speaker 3: eyes and he's like, oh, but you have to, like
Speaker 3: you have disappointment and we have to get home to
Speaker 3: the dog.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, but isn't the point of daddy energy
Speaker 1: that they've got to be attractive to you.
Speaker 3: I don't think attractiveness comes into daddy energy. I think
Speaker 3: he's talking about like how to.
Speaker 2: Be what he's talking about, he's talking about how making
Speaker 2: himself more attractive to women by being a dust And
Speaker 2: that's what he's saying.
Speaker 3: He's saying that this is what women want in men
Speaker 3: in a partner.
Speaker 1: You shouldn't be thirsty after your partner.
Speaker 3: I'm not thirst after my I'm just like, the way
Speaker 3: they are being treated is like an ideal way that
Speaker 3: I'd like to also be treated by a partner. But
Speaker 3: I feel like when a man is doing that to
Speaker 3: a woman who he's dating, it comes across as really
Speaker 3: weird to her friends and really awkward because he excludes
Speaker 3: all of them and it just looks like he's treating
Speaker 3: her like a little like puppy baby.
Speaker 2: This is interesting because to me, this is a bit
Speaker 2: like I know women who are like I want to
Speaker 2: be treated like a princess, right. I don't want to
Speaker 2: be treated like a princess. It's not one of my things.
Speaker 2: Sometimes I don't want to be like a little precious
Speaker 2: thing that needs like that's.
Speaker 1: Not my vibe. Right.
Speaker 2: So when I've and I have dated guys who are
Speaker 2: like this, who want to order for you in a restaurant.
Speaker 2: If a guy looks at you funny, they'll kind of
Speaker 2: square off to them a bit, and I find it
Speaker 2: so unattractive. The thing that's interesting about this guy, Kevin,
Speaker 2: as you said me, he's like a manfluencer, and that
Speaker 2: he has a whole thing about how he's telling men
Speaker 2: how to have good relationships. And he has a three
Speaker 2: day free course that you can sign up for where
Speaker 2: he will teach you how.
Speaker 1: To have daddy energy. Well, I think it's better than
Speaker 1: Andrew Tate, who's like, call her a bitch and treat
Speaker 1: to Maine and she'll want you more.
Speaker 2: And I would love to know how he teaches you
Speaker 2: to have it, because what are the physical practical steps, Like,
Speaker 2: how would you tell a guy to have daddy energy?
Speaker 2: What would you think is a really good example.
Speaker 1: I don't think you can teach someone. I think it's
Speaker 1: just who they are. So all the guys that I
Speaker 1: dated in my late teens and early twenties had the
Speaker 1: opposite of daddy energy. I don't know what you'd even
Speaker 1: call it, like Todd lor energy, drug addict energy. Then
Speaker 1: I remember the first night that I spent with Jays.
Speaker 1: The next morning we went back to my place and
Speaker 1: someone had side swiped my car was parked outside my
Speaker 1: apartment and I'd parked it badly and someone had sideswiped it.
Speaker 1: And I just knew that he'd be able to take
Speaker 1: care of it. I don't mean like yeah, but he
Speaker 1: just knew he had to move the car to get
Speaker 1: it off the corner and then. And it's not that
Speaker 1: I couldn't have done it myself, and I think I
Speaker 1: did do it myself, but I knew that he had
Speaker 1: the energy over someone who is capable. To me, it's
Speaker 1: capable and not a child.
Speaker 3: That's what my Dad does for me that no other
Speaker 3: partner has ever done. Like if like a light doesn't work,
Speaker 3: I'm like, Dad will fix it. Like I don't even
Speaker 3: have to say, like he'll just fix it, will just
Speaker 3: come and fix things, and like drive me to places
Speaker 3: because I have parking anxiety.
Speaker 1: When I was much younger, I dated and much older guys,
Speaker 1: you know, and you could say that he had daddy
Speaker 1: energy because I was seventeen and he was thirty three,
Speaker 1: and he you know, I didn't love that. I liked
Speaker 1: part of it, but I didn't really want someone to
Speaker 1: he had daddy energy in a way that was a
Speaker 1: bit more controlling, which I didn't love. So, you know,
Speaker 1: I remember saying to Jayces early in our relationship, we'd
Speaker 1: be going out to dinner and he'd be like, oh,
Speaker 1: you don't need to bring you alllet and I'd get
Speaker 1: angry at him because he was going to pack, and
Speaker 1: I was like, what I've had to pay for every
Speaker 1: guy I've ever dated, And he said, I'll bet I'll
Speaker 1: pay for you. And I said, but I don't dismantle
Speaker 1: my independence, but like you whole like, I'm like, I
Speaker 1: don't need you to pay for me. I'm just stoked
Speaker 1: you can pay for yourself. Yeah, I see.
Speaker 2: How attractive it is. And to be honest, my life
Speaker 2: would probably be less stressful if I chosen someone who
Speaker 2: could take care of all the things. But I just
Speaker 2: for me. Obviously, somewhere it's linked with control and I
Speaker 2: don't like that. And maybe the experiences I've had where
Speaker 2: when a guy is saying I'll take care of it,
Speaker 2: I often feel like I'm being told to sit down
Speaker 2: and shut up, you know what I mean, And I
Speaker 2: don't like.
Speaker 1: I don't like that.
Speaker 2: But this guy's interesting because I can see what he
Speaker 2: means about the confidence that it's hot to walk through
Speaker 2: the world being like I am in charge of my kingdom.
Speaker 2: But I'm like, where does that leave me? I want
Speaker 2: to be a queen? Does the king want a queen?
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Its other energy is a different thing. So that's Beyonce.
Speaker 1: That's similar. That's like not so much safety. That's iconic status, right,
Speaker 1: So people call Beyonce mother and the goddess mother. They
Speaker 1: might call me Donna mother. It's sort of like goddess
Speaker 1: icon It's not about money.
Speaker 4: Is it.
Speaker 1: It's really about responsibility and capability. I think it's about
Speaker 1: mental load. You know. I think it's about someone who
Speaker 1: will share the mental load or take some mental load
Speaker 1: from you. It's not about someone paying for every for me,
Speaker 1: about someone paying for everything. It's about, oh, I don't
Speaker 1: have to think of everything.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think in the early stages of dating someone, it
Speaker 3: is a bit kind of about the paying thing, Like
Speaker 3: it is a nice story to tell your friends, Like
Speaker 3: you sit down at dinner and they want to hear
Speaker 3: your dating stories, and they're kind of hoping it's a
Speaker 3: tragic one, so they get entertainment out of it, and
Speaker 3: you sit down and you go, he paid for everything,
Speaker 3: Like he organized the date, like he did all of
Speaker 3: this stuff, And like, I feel like that is the
Speaker 3: daddy energy that I like. Because whether that like continues
Speaker 3: on in the relationship or not, like it starts off really.
Speaker 1: Powerful unless it's an early warning sign of it's very controlling.
Speaker 3: Have had that as well, I must say.
Speaker 1: Speaking of love interest, is marrying your best friend ever
Speaker 1: a good idea? Can best friends turn into lovers? And
Speaker 1: should lovers become best friends? In yesterday's episode, we debated this,
Speaker 1: he's a little taste.
Speaker 3: In an ideal world, I would see my romantic partner
Speaker 3: being at the same level as my best friend, not
Speaker 3: above them. And I don't see my best friend being
Speaker 3: above them. My friends who have gotten into relationships, I
Speaker 3: feel me losing them as a best friend. You automatically
Speaker 3: know when their partner becomes their best friend, because you're
Speaker 3: automatically taken off something.
Speaker 2: Well, what's the symptom of that? Tell me what happens
Speaker 2: when you first go, oh, they've taken that spot from me.
Speaker 3: Now, when I find out that they've told their partner
Speaker 3: they've got a promotion, or they've had a fight or
Speaker 3: something before they've told me, I'm like, oh, this is
Speaker 3: the switch.
Speaker 1: Sex with your best friend, good or bad. A link
Speaker 1: to the episode will be in the show notes.
Speaker 3: Do you know someone who just never shuts the fuck up? Sonnis?
Speaker 1: Yeah, your mouth is moving a lot like a rats
Speaker 1: Yeah ya Yapa Yapa.
Speaker 3: Subseac writer and Cadet wrote a post titled how to
Speaker 3: Deal with People who talk and talk and talk and talk.
Speaker 3: She talked about how she had a friend named Gabby
Speaker 3: who she loved and had so much in common with,
Speaker 3: and this friend she called a monologuer. So she said
Speaker 3: that if there was a transcript of their conversation and
Speaker 3: said that Gabby would do ninety five percent of the talking.
Speaker 3: So one day she decided to confront her monologue friend, Gabby,
Speaker 3: and I'm going to read a little excerpt of the substack.
Speaker 3: It's so good, Gabby. I've been feeling a little irritated
Speaker 3: that whenever we meet up, it's mostly you talking about yourself.
Speaker 3: We never talk about me. She expressed surprise, and then,
Speaker 3: to her credit, asked what she should do well. I said,
Speaker 3: you could ask what's new with me? What's new with you?
Speaker 3: Said Gabby. I started relaying a recent adventure, but within
Speaker 3: minutes she steered the conversation back to herself. Gabby, I said,
Speaker 3: we're talking about you again.
Speaker 1: This is such good communication.
Speaker 3: She requested more guidance, and I suggested she express an
Speaker 3: interest in my story by asking questions. Gabby put in
Speaker 3: a mighty effort, but after ten minutes she announced that
Speaker 3: she had to run. Thank you for your honesty, she
Speaker 3: said in her way out, But it was so helpful
Speaker 3: for me to get the feedback. And I never heard
Speaker 3: from Gabby and Holly, do you have a monologer in
Speaker 3: your life?
Speaker 2: I do. I have monologuers in my life, for sure.
Speaker 2: And sometimes I'm really grateful for them because I do
Speaker 2: a lot of talking, and sometimes I don't want to talk.
Speaker 2: So I know there are some social situations in which
Speaker 2: I can just throw someone a question and sit back,
Speaker 2: and that makes me very happy. I don't always have
Speaker 2: a problem with it.
Speaker 1: I have to saya. The best interviews when you just
Speaker 1: you can just go, so, how did you get here?
Speaker 1: And then it's just like, right, okay, thanks for joining us.
Speaker 1: That's always got time for I. When I first read this,
Speaker 1: became panicked that oh shit, and my monologue because I
Speaker 1: talk a lot and I don't shut up. Holly helpfully
Speaker 1: pointed out that I have a different annoying conversational thing,
Speaker 1: which is I'm an interrupter, so I'll interrupt to ask questions.
Speaker 1: I have people in my life who do this. I
Speaker 1: often we'll be listening to someone tell a really long, detailed,
Speaker 1: boring story and I'll be thinking to myself, how can
Speaker 1: you not know? This is not interesting? Or I'll play
Speaker 1: a game with myself when I'm like, I wonder if
Speaker 1: they'll ask me a question at all in this period
Speaker 1: of time that I see them, and do they know
Speaker 1: or it's a perfunctory one and then as Gabby did
Speaker 1: they get back to themselves. I do a thing when
Speaker 1: I'm tired, particularly whole, and it's funny. I've been pulled
Speaker 1: up on it when I'll go into interview mode because
Speaker 1: when I'm tired and I don't want to talk because
Speaker 1: we talk a lot on the show, I will just
Speaker 1: ask questions and also I'm interested. But I'll often go
Speaker 1: into interview mode, like my kids will go, this is
Speaker 1: not no filter, and I'll catch myself doing it. But
Speaker 1: when you ask someone a lot of questions about themselves,
Speaker 1: they can be like, oh, you're really interested, I'll keep talking.
Speaker 1: And so I think sometimes if you're with a monologer,
Speaker 1: just check that you're not kicking the can down the
Speaker 1: road you sell, and that you're not the one that's
Speaker 1: constantly asking the questions, and just see what happens if
Speaker 1: you stop asking questions.
Speaker 3: Is that your strategy?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is, except with this one person I had
Speaker 1: to actually because I watched them monologue to someone else
Speaker 1: who was trying to have a conversation with them and
Speaker 1: who I know they really love, and I just watched
Speaker 1: this person trying to connect, throwing bids out for connection,
Speaker 1: and this other person the monologue just kept going and
Speaker 1: kept going and kept going and didn't ask a question,
Speaker 1: and this other person sort of wandered off. And I
Speaker 1: know that this person was feeling unsatisfied by their social interactions.
Speaker 1: And I just said, you know, you didn't ask that
Speaker 1: person a single question. And it was easy because it
Speaker 1: wasn't me. I was just an observer. And they're like what,
Speaker 1: and I went, yeah, they came down and they were
Speaker 1: trying to connect with you and tell you, and they've
Speaker 1: got all these things going on in their life, and
Speaker 1: you just monologued about this story and this thing that
Speaker 1: happened to you and this other thing that's going on
Speaker 1: in your life. And it was a real missed opportunity.
Speaker 1: And to their credit, they were mortified, and ever since
Speaker 1: have made such an effort, and I've watched them interact
Speaker 1: and they've done things like gone, no, I need to
Speaker 1: ask you some questions. I want to hear about your life.
Speaker 1: So they've like really taken it to heart, and I
Speaker 1: think it's made a big difference.
Speaker 3: I don't have that many monologus in my life. There's
Speaker 3: a lot of monologuing when it comes to dating, but
Speaker 3: in my actual life, I think what's worse and monologuing
Speaker 3: is someone who lets you talk, but you can tell
Speaker 3: they're just thinking about the next thing to say. Yeah,
Speaker 3: And I'm like, at least what monologuing If you do
Speaker 3: kind of interrupt them, they could potentially listen to what
Speaker 3: you're saying. But when someone is one hundred percent not
Speaker 3: listening and just wants to talk and say their next thing,
Speaker 3: that is way we talked.
Speaker 1: About snow globers, where they're just like waiting for a
Speaker 1: pause to go, yeah, that happened to me, and then
Speaker 1: show you their snow globe and something that happened.
Speaker 4: Oh.
Speaker 1: I find that older people often will do that generalizing,
Speaker 1: but will want to tell long stories about their past,
Speaker 1: often instead of asking questions to the young people around.
Speaker 2: The thing is, though, right about you know your point
Speaker 2: about when you sit there listening to them tell you
Speaker 2: a story and you're like, do you know how boring
Speaker 2: you are? How do you know that you're right? Like,
Speaker 2: you're bored a lot MEA's boredom threshold is very low,
Speaker 2: so it's like, oh, because it's boring to you, it
Speaker 2: doesn't necessarily mean that it's boring.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I'll give you an example and I never
Speaker 1: think you're boring. I just am always like this is
Speaker 1: a boring story, because these are usually people that I love.
Speaker 1: Ask me a question, any question.
Speaker 2: What did you do this morning?
Speaker 1: Well, the alarm went off and I set my phone
Speaker 1: to silent, and I shouldn't have because I should know,
Speaker 1: but I had it on because in case Coco calls me.
Speaker 1: She's in Europe, you know, I got up and into
Speaker 1: the tea bag and it's like, no, no, just to
Speaker 1: back edit, like, but what happened? Yeah, I don't want
Speaker 1: to know fourteen hours or if I'm asking you a
Speaker 1: specific thing, you know, I want to tell you something.
Speaker 1: Just cut to the important.
Speaker 2: Not everybody's good at telling a story, right. So this
Speaker 2: is one of the key things about monologuers, right, because
Speaker 2: I think we live in a very monology culture. We
Speaker 2: have convinced ourselves that my piece to camera, my voice note,
Speaker 2: my several swipes along Instagram carousel is really interesting. We've
Speaker 2: moved into monologue culture. We don't like conversation anymore, we
Speaker 2: don't like phone conversations. So I think people have decided
Speaker 2: that monologuing is where it's at. But the problem with
Speaker 2: IRL monologuing is you have to be a good storyteller
Speaker 2: to do it well. And I can very clearly remember
Speaker 2: some of the best stories I've ever been told in
Speaker 2: my life. I don't mean in a professional setting. I
Speaker 2: mean like a friend or someone I know at a
Speaker 2: party or whatever telling me an amazing story and You're
Speaker 2: just like, no, keep going, that's fricking great, right. So
Speaker 2: it's not that monologuing has a standard rule that shires
Speaker 2: the story because they know which bits to keep in
Speaker 2: and which bits.
Speaker 1: To keep out.
Speaker 2: But not everybody has that skill, right. And the thing
Speaker 2: is is the people who are very good at telling
Speaker 2: stories still have stories, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: I used to really like, I know this is not
Speaker 2: everybody agrees with this, but like when my grandparents were
Speaker 2: alive and I was little, I used to love their
Speaker 2: stories about like the war and about what life was like,
Speaker 2: you know, like back in the older days. And they
Speaker 2: weren't particularly good storytellers. So sometimes you have to sift
Speaker 2: through the boring bits to get to the good stuff.
Speaker 2: I wonder if we've all because we're so now used
Speaker 2: to performance and all interaction is a performance, right, that
Speaker 2: we've lost our tolerance for like sifting through the boring
Speaker 2: story the chaff for the wheat.
Speaker 1: Do you know, I think you've nailed it. I think
Speaker 1: we've lost the ability to converse in real time where
Speaker 1: I say a bit and then you say a bit.
Speaker 1: But if I talk for too long, I become aware
Speaker 1: that I've talked for too long, and I'm reading your
Speaker 1: body language and facial expressions, and I can see when
Speaker 1: the light goes off in your eyes and you're actually
Speaker 1: thinking about.
Speaker 2: Something monkeys in your head. Like one of my old
Speaker 2: friends who I haven't seen for ages actually, but her
Speaker 2: husband is a classic monologuer. Right. Although I like him
Speaker 2: and I've known him for a lot of years, I
Speaker 2: would avoid catch ups where it was him as well,
Speaker 2: because he would just take over with.
Speaker 1: His that's the power monologuer.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and his stories, like he had interesting ideas and
Speaker 2: things to say, his stories where he just would talk
Speaker 2: and talk and talk and talk and talk, And so
Speaker 2: you would be like, Okay, if I want to catch
Speaker 2: up with my girlfriend, he needs to not be around
Speaker 2: because I won't get to catch up with my girlfriend.
Speaker 2: I'll just have to listen to his monologues. But I'm
Speaker 2: sure that he thinks that he's trying really hard to
Speaker 2: engage and interact with his friends, you know, like his
Speaker 2: wife's best friend.
Speaker 1: I was just giving speeches. That's such a good point.
Speaker 1: So the monologu as I was talking about were not
Speaker 1: power monologuers. They were more just this isn't very interesting monologuers,
Speaker 1: the people who weren't very good editors or very good
Speaker 1: storytellers and couldn't work out what bits of an event
Speaker 1: or inexperience are relevant and interesting to your audience and
Speaker 1: which are probably best kept as inside thoughts. But a
Speaker 1: power monologuer makes me angry because they hold everyone. If
Speaker 1: you've been at a dinner party or if you've been
Speaker 1: I've never known really a woman that does this. But
Speaker 1: there's also a man of a certain age who expects
Speaker 1: everyone to be quiet. And what was the precursor to
Speaker 1: the power monologuer. You don't see them so much anymore,
Speaker 1: But it's the joke teller. So it was the person
Speaker 1: who would tell a joke. The conversation would have to
Speaker 1: stop and everyone would have to stand quietly or whatever
Speaker 1: and wait for the whole joke to be told and
Speaker 1: then laugh at the end. And that is a power
Speaker 1: mood that I absolutely hate.
Speaker 3: I don't have experience with like a storyteller monologue. I think,
Speaker 3: especially when going on first dates, I realized that a
Speaker 3: lot of men don't really talk about their feelings and
Speaker 3: what's going on in their lives with their friends, and
Speaker 3: I think monologuing is kind of I'm going to generalize here,
Speaker 3: but monologuing is kind of a symptom of the single
Speaker 3: straight man. They don't have an outlet to give everything
Speaker 3: to their friends. So when you go on a date,
Speaker 3: and obviously on first dates, you want to know more
Speaker 3: about the person, so you're asking them questions because no
Speaker 3: one's ever asked them a question before. They just run
Speaker 3: with it and keep talking and talking and talking till
Speaker 3: the end of the day you realize that they don't
Speaker 3: know a single thing about you.
Speaker 1: But is that that male female thing, because I remember thinking,
Speaker 1: I remember first reading about it in the context of dating.
Speaker 3: That men don't ask enough questions, no, because.
Speaker 1: They're not as in tune with the social contract of
Speaker 1: I ask you a few questions, and then when you've
Speaker 1: spoken for long enough, you ask me a few questions back.
Speaker 1: And that's how it works. So they'll just be like, oh,
Speaker 1: she thinks I'm interesting. I'll keep talking, so that she
Speaker 1: thinks I'm even more interesting.
Speaker 3: But then they also just sit in the silence when
Speaker 3: you're waiting for a question.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, it's so weird.
Speaker 3: So I always my strategy for monologue is is I
Speaker 3: always go not that you asked, but I also have
Speaker 3: a sister, Oh that's gay chill, and then they get like,
Speaker 3: oh shit, yeah that's genius.
Speaker 2: So the best way to shut a monologuer up is
Speaker 2: I'd be very direct, like the woman who wrote the substack,
Speaker 2: which is like, do you realize you're not asking me
Speaker 2: any questions? Interrupt with questions, or just throw a bomb
Speaker 2: like MV just did, like not that you asked, but
Speaker 2: I love it. That's it for today's show, Out Louders,
Speaker 2: thank you so much for being with us. Thank you
Speaker 2: to you m V for filling out, and Jesse, you've
Speaker 2: got another show on Friday day. And then I believe
Speaker 2: she's on our way, she's on a plane, she'll be
Speaker 2: on a plane. By then, she will be on a plane,
Speaker 2: thank God, with her bebby a.
Speaker 1: Ten month old alone, because Lucas already back. So thoughts
Speaker 1: and prayers for Jesse out Louders.
Speaker 2: We will be back in your ears on Friday. We
Speaker 2: cannot wait.
Speaker 1: To talk to you. Then, Bye bye, Siya.
Speaker 2: Shout out to any Mamma Mia subscribers listening. If you
Speaker 2: love the show and you want to support us, subscribing
Speaker 2: to Mamma Mia is the very best way to do it.
Speaker 2: There's a link in the episode description