WEBVTT - The Victoria Beckham Documentary Is Hard To Watch 0:00:10.622 --> 0:00:13.342 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 0:00:13.822 --> 0:00:17.182 Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:17.222 --> 0:00:22.861 that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to 0:00:22.942 --> 0:00:25.262 Mamma Mia out Loud. It's a brand new week. This 0:00:25.381 --> 0:00:27.821 is what women are actually talking about on Monday, the 0:00:27.902 --> 0:00:30.621 thirteenth of October. My name is Holly. 0:00:30.382 --> 0:00:34.542 Wayne right, I am Amelia Luster and I am Jesse Stevens. 0:00:34.542 --> 0:00:36.582 I have a fun fact before we start the show today. 0:00:36.702 --> 0:00:38.702 Did you know so I've been seeing a pelvic floor 0:00:38.742 --> 0:00:41.062 physio again to try and sort out. 0:00:40.902 --> 0:00:43.382 The This is earlier in the piece than earlier in time. 0:00:43.582 --> 0:00:45.782 She's pregnant. If anyone's wondering, if any out Loud is 0:00:45.822 --> 0:00:48.502 you're like, why, so interact with whether or not Jesse's 0:00:48.542 --> 0:00:50.142 seeing someone about her pelvic floor. 0:00:50.222 --> 0:00:53.101 We've discussed with twins, right, and so I'm going, I 0:00:53.142 --> 0:00:56.222 don't want to head hanging out at twenty weeks. Let's 0:00:56.222 --> 0:00:58.662 sort this out. So I went and she was telling 0:00:58.702 --> 0:01:02.342 me that when you sneeze as a woman, you're meant 0:01:02.422 --> 0:01:04.941 to pull up. Did you know that from your pelvic floor? 0:01:05.021 --> 0:01:07.462 So when you know you're going to sneeze, you're meant 0:01:07.502 --> 0:01:11.062 to almost like a straw, get your floor and suck 0:01:11.062 --> 0:01:13.182 it up through a straw so that you don't let 0:01:13.222 --> 0:01:15.301 a little bit of way out. So now it's very 0:01:15.302 --> 0:01:18.702 poliny in the like in Sydney. At the moment, everyone's sneezing, 0:01:18.822 --> 0:01:22.222 So I keep sneezing, and I keep trying to do. 0:01:22.182 --> 0:01:24.502 That as I'm interesting that every sneeze is a little 0:01:24.542 --> 0:01:27.462 opportunity for self optimization exactly. 0:01:27.622 --> 0:01:29.942 That reminds me, though, that I had a Floti Sitchu 0:01:30.022 --> 0:01:33.622 once who said every woman is always clenching her buttocks, 0:01:33.782 --> 0:01:36.022 So just think of that every time you think of 0:01:36.062 --> 0:01:36.942 it unclenched. 0:01:37.022 --> 0:01:39.662 It's very true. And your buttocks is not your public floor. 0:01:39.782 --> 0:01:41.862 This is what my public floor phy say. She'd say, 0:01:42.062 --> 0:01:42.902 let go of your. 0:01:42.742 --> 0:01:47.462 Bum and of your bar matladers, hold on to your barm. 0:01:48.622 --> 0:01:49.062 Two things. 0:01:49.142 --> 0:01:52.302 Is making me all funny, you won't, sir. Anyway, None 0:01:52.342 --> 0:01:54.902 of that actually made our agenda for today. What made 0:01:54.902 --> 0:01:56.982 our agenda for today immediate Elesta. 0:01:56.902 --> 0:02:01.062 Victoria Beckham has a new docu series on Netflix, and 0:02:01.102 --> 0:02:04.022 she's made some big revelations in there about her complicated 0:02:04.062 --> 0:02:05.022 relationship with food. 0:02:05.502 --> 0:02:08.862 Plus Julia Morris says planes should have a women's only 0:02:08.901 --> 0:02:11.621 section and hundreds of women have come forward sharing their 0:02:11.662 --> 0:02:14.542 own horror stories. Does she have a point? 0:02:15.061 --> 0:02:18.862 And Princess Kate has written an essay guaranteed to make 0:02:18.902 --> 0:02:20.702 you squirm in guilty recognition. 0:02:21.022 --> 0:02:23.662 But first, Amelia, but first, all eyes are on the 0:02:23.662 --> 0:02:26.502 Middle East. Today it's Monday here in Australia and her 0:02:26.582 --> 0:02:31.102 Mass has until eight o'clock Australian Eastern time tonight to 0:02:31.222 --> 0:02:35.382 release all twenty remaining living hostages that are being held 0:02:35.422 --> 0:02:38.982 in Gaza back to Israel. Israel has said this could 0:02:39.062 --> 0:02:43.501 happen anytime today, starting it around midday Australian Eastern time, 0:02:43.942 --> 0:02:47.582 and then after that process is done, Israel is going 0:02:47.622 --> 0:02:51.862 to release about two thousand Palestinian detainees that it has. 0:02:52.462 --> 0:02:54.702 Donald Trump is on his way there. Before he got 0:02:54.782 --> 0:02:57.262 on the plane, he declared war is over. But of 0:02:57.302 --> 0:02:59.022 course there is still a lot to be worked out, 0:02:59.062 --> 0:03:02.102 and there is some last minute negotiating happening as we 0:03:02.462 --> 0:03:06.061 entered this record between Hamas and Israel about which Palestinian 0:03:06.102 --> 0:03:09.062 detainees are going to be released. But Trump is going 0:03:09.102 --> 0:03:12.182 to go to eat next after this, assuming everything goes well, 0:03:12.222 --> 0:03:14.022 and it's there that there's going to be a peace 0:03:14.062 --> 0:03:17.142 plan for Gars assigned after some seven hundred and thirty 0:03:17.142 --> 0:03:20.902 six days of war. So look, obviously things are unfolding 0:03:21.102 --> 0:03:23.542 as we are recording here now, and they will continue 0:03:23.582 --> 0:03:25.742 to do so over the coming couple of days. But 0:03:25.782 --> 0:03:28.222 the Quickie is here to keep us updated this afternoon, 0:03:28.262 --> 0:03:31.542 this evening, and then going forward on how everything unfolds. 0:03:32.462 --> 0:03:35.742 Please don't tell anyone that I've been looking at paparazzi images, 0:03:35.902 --> 0:03:38.862 because mom and mea, we do not support paparazzi economy. 0:03:38.902 --> 0:03:42.342 But Holly, sometimes we see headlines without our own permission. 0:03:42.382 --> 0:03:44.902 They just pop up out of nowhere, and you can't 0:03:45.022 --> 0:03:45.702 see a headline. 0:03:46.342 --> 0:03:48.622 Can we agree that every time we look at a 0:03:48.622 --> 0:03:52.702 paparazzi image unwishingly or not necessarily by choice, that we 0:03:52.742 --> 0:03:54.622 work on lifting our pelvic floor? Maybe? 0:03:54.702 --> 0:03:54.862 Yes? 0:03:56.462 --> 0:03:57.942 So true? A ten second hands? 0:03:58.102 --> 0:04:01.022 Yeah, ten seconds holds? So I did at least a 0:04:01.022 --> 0:04:05.502 thirty minute hold because I promise I didn't click through. 0:04:05.582 --> 0:04:07.582 But anyway, I don't want you to know that I've 0:04:07.582 --> 0:04:09.822 been looking at paparazi images, but I have, and I'm sorry, 0:04:09.862 --> 0:04:13.702 but I have schoreless gossip from these images that Katie 0:04:13.742 --> 0:04:17.141 Perry is definitely on with that just intrude. 0:04:17.502 --> 0:04:20.142 Oh I love this story. I actually love there. 0:04:20.301 --> 0:04:22.981 We talked about this schroreless gossip a while ago on 0:04:22.981 --> 0:04:24.942 out Loud, and then it was kind of denied by 0:04:24.981 --> 0:04:25.581 their camps. 0:04:25.741 --> 0:04:28.141 I went on a date, yes, oh yeah, and he 0:04:28.342 --> 0:04:32.061 was like, listen, we're just seeing each other as friends. Yeah, 0:04:32.061 --> 0:04:34.222 I'm not romantically interested. Mate. 0:04:34.301 --> 0:04:37.981 If you have glimpsed these images, there is nothing platonic 0:04:38.022 --> 0:04:40.142 about them. They are I'll tell you so you don't 0:04:40.142 --> 0:04:41.782 have to look out louder, so you can keep your 0:04:41.821 --> 0:04:46.461 integrity intact. They are on Katie's yacht off the coast 0:04:46.462 --> 0:04:49.421 of Santa Barbara. Apparently she's in a swimsuit and he's 0:04:49.462 --> 0:04:51.941 in jeans, which I have a lot of questions about that, 0:04:52.981 --> 0:04:55.941 but they are embracing and although you could argue, well, 0:04:55.981 --> 0:04:58.621 friends hug each other when they see each other, his 0:04:58.782 --> 0:05:01.502 hands are in places that friends do not go. Friends 0:05:01.541 --> 0:05:04.181 do not put their hands there. So I just want 0:05:04.181 --> 0:05:06.941 to tell you this is very exciting. I don't think 0:05:06.981 --> 0:05:09.101 this is just about justin trying to get Canada on 0:05:09.181 --> 0:05:12.342 Katie's next space mission. I don't think it's that. I 0:05:12.381 --> 0:05:16.342 think they're on I'm excited scoreless gossip. I'm here for it. 0:05:16.462 --> 0:05:18.381 Things are looking out for Katie. I think Katie's had 0:05:18.421 --> 0:05:21.782 her rough twelve months. She copped a bit and I 0:05:21.861 --> 0:05:23.902 think that she's due for a bit of good luck. 0:05:24.101 --> 0:05:25.662 And I'm just all for it. 0:05:25.741 --> 0:05:28.541 Is here, good dude, Amelia. You know things about politics 0:05:28.741 --> 0:05:30.141 out side of the world, and he used to be 0:05:30.181 --> 0:05:31.582 the prime minister Rink Canada. 0:05:31.821 --> 0:05:33.582 He's a good issue. 0:05:34.222 --> 0:05:36.462 It seems to hate him now for some reason. 0:05:36.582 --> 0:05:38.222 I think that's just what happens when you used to 0:05:38.262 --> 0:05:40.101 be the pan Wasn't his. 0:05:40.181 --> 0:05:44.381 Dad like a notorious sort of celebrity hanger out. 0:05:44.741 --> 0:05:49.581 Holy They are definitely a celebrity family, right those guys. Yeah, Yeah, definitely. 0:05:49.821 --> 0:05:52.582 What I'm wondering about off the coast of Santa Barbara. 0:05:52.662 --> 0:05:56.622 You know where that is, right, Montesito, anyone. I'm wondering 0:05:57.262 --> 0:06:00.301 because Megan need I unpack this all for you. Megan 0:06:00.421 --> 0:06:04.622 is good friends with Justin's ex wife. Yes, that's right, 0:06:04.702 --> 0:06:08.222 and they have spent summer days together Paul side at 0:06:08.262 --> 0:06:11.181 Megan and Harry's. I'm wondering, was there an awkward run 0:06:11.222 --> 0:06:12.781 in at the Montecito shops. 0:06:13.541 --> 0:06:15.621 Maybe they were looking out over the water and they 0:06:15.621 --> 0:06:16.541 had their monoculars. 0:06:16.702 --> 0:06:22.061 Well, because Katie and Orlando lived next door to Megan 0:06:22.101 --> 0:06:23.941 and Harry, so it's all very messy. 0:06:24.101 --> 0:06:26.101 Harry once said that Orlander would tip him off about 0:06:26.142 --> 0:06:28.541 paps in the neighborhood. See I've seen the pap down 0:06:28.541 --> 0:06:29.022 at IgA. 0:06:29.301 --> 0:06:30.181 You better watch out. 0:06:30.501 --> 0:06:33.382 And then you're right, because Megan has often talked about 0:06:33.421 --> 0:06:35.981 having the Canadian first family round. That's when they were together. 0:06:36.061 --> 0:06:38.741 So hot scandal it down. 0:06:38.821 --> 0:06:41.981 The good that Oprah also lives there has sorted out 0:06:42.061 --> 0:06:46.501 for them. So there's a new documentary series out, a 0:06:46.541 --> 0:06:50.461 three part documentary on Netflix telling the life story of 0:06:50.541 --> 0:06:53.541 Victoria Beckham. So you remember last year was the David 0:06:53.582 --> 0:06:58.421 Beckham Netflix documentary. This year it's Victoria's turn. And Holly, 0:06:58.501 --> 0:07:01.261 you asked me last week if I was enjoying watching 0:07:01.262 --> 0:07:02.702 it because I just started watching it. 0:07:02.861 --> 0:07:05.261 You watched the first app before I had seen it. 0:07:05.342 --> 0:07:07.701 Yeah, I was like it good like And I said, 0:07:08.142 --> 0:07:10.662 you know, Holly, I'm finding it really hard to watch. 0:07:10.702 --> 0:07:12.982 And I recounted a scene in the first episode that 0:07:13.022 --> 0:07:16.141 has really stayed with me. David and Victoria are swanning 0:07:16.182 --> 0:07:21.142 around their really marvelously charming looking country house kitchen and 0:07:21.462 --> 0:07:22.182 they're about to. 0:07:22.142 --> 0:07:23.062 Go out to an event. 0:07:23.142 --> 0:07:25.462 And one detail I love in this is that they 0:07:25.582 --> 0:07:28.622 both really like expensive wine, and David had poured them 0:07:28.662 --> 0:07:31.581 both big you know, those big rich person goblets of 0:07:31.622 --> 0:07:33.742 wine to drink before they went to an event, and 0:07:33.902 --> 0:07:36.022 I guess they didn't have time to drink them, so 0:07:36.142 --> 0:07:39.982 David pours them into flasks, essentially to drink in the 0:07:39.982 --> 0:07:42.742 back of their limousine sippy cups. But then he also 0:07:42.862 --> 0:07:45.381 says to her, do you want a whisper? There's a 0:07:45.422 --> 0:07:47.782 little draw full of chocolate in their kitchen and it's 0:07:47.782 --> 0:07:49.822 one of those fun size I guess is whisper a 0:07:49.862 --> 0:07:50.542 British chocolate. 0:07:50.662 --> 0:07:53.022 Yeah, it's gorgeous. It's kind of like a flake covered 0:07:53.022 --> 0:07:56.581 in chocolate, but more air. Aw we it's They're delicious. 0:07:56.582 --> 0:07:57.542 Whispers are delish. 0:07:57.742 --> 0:07:59.182 So he says to her, do you want a whisper? 0:07:59.782 --> 0:08:02.302 And then she makes a joke something along the lines 0:08:02.342 --> 0:08:04.702 of not having touched chocolate since the nineties, I'm not 0:08:04.742 --> 0:08:06.821 going to start eating it now. And I just thought, 0:08:06.982 --> 0:08:10.422 this person clearly has a disordered relationship with food. And 0:08:10.462 --> 0:08:12.622 that's what I said to you, And then that became 0:08:12.662 --> 0:08:13.982 a theme of the whole show, didn't it? 0:08:13.982 --> 0:08:16.062 It did? I was going to say, because that on 0:08:16.182 --> 0:08:18.701 its own was kind of like, oh, yeah, we know, 0:08:18.902 --> 0:08:20.862 we know. And also there was a lot of footage 0:08:20.862 --> 0:08:24.022 in that first episode of them at the gym. Do 0:08:24.062 --> 0:08:27.062 you notice that lots of less Victoria doing weights, lots 0:08:27.102 --> 0:08:30.022 of midlife weightlifting, you know how that's what the ladies 0:08:30.062 --> 0:08:32.302 are into. And I don't know what the protein count 0:08:32.342 --> 0:08:34.502 and a whisper is so like she wouldn't be Yeah, 0:08:34.542 --> 0:08:37.542 I don't think. I don't think she'd be guzzling those anyway. 0:08:38.062 --> 0:08:40.822 But in the second episode we will have a few 0:08:40.822 --> 0:08:42.822 spoilers in this but for people who really want to 0:08:42.862 --> 0:08:45.502 dive into what we thought of the whole show, we're 0:08:45.502 --> 0:08:47.982 going to do a special subject about it for tomorrow 0:08:47.982 --> 0:08:51.942 for Tuesday. But in episode two they talk about the 0:08:51.982 --> 0:08:54.982 food and the diet culture and eating disorders in a 0:08:55.022 --> 0:08:59.142 more head on fashion right, And I actually found it 0:08:59.662 --> 0:09:03.702 really moving and insightful. And I know there's a lot 0:09:03.742 --> 0:09:07.222 of criticism about how surface level this show is, and 0:09:07.302 --> 0:09:11.142 it is I think certainly compared to the David Beckham documentary. 0:09:12.342 --> 0:09:17.142 It doesn't feel anywhere near as deep. But Victoria Beckham 0:09:17.462 --> 0:09:20.142 POSH or Lady Beckham, as the BBC always calls her, 0:09:20.182 --> 0:09:22.662 which I just love. Go and read some reporting on 0:09:22.702 --> 0:09:25.022 the BBC website about this show, and even when talking 0:09:25.062 --> 0:09:27.582 about the most mundane thing like wine sippy cups, they 0:09:27.582 --> 0:09:28.982 referred to as Lady Beckham. 0:09:29.942 --> 0:09:31.862 She'd love that, she would love that. 0:09:32.742 --> 0:09:36.222 Lady Beckham is one of those celebrities who she has 0:09:36.262 --> 0:09:40.742 been famous for thirty years. She is an absolute icon 0:09:40.822 --> 0:09:44.182 of gen X culture in all her different guys is 0:09:45.022 --> 0:09:47.062 and her skinniness. And I'm just going to say it 0:09:47.062 --> 0:09:48.982 because I know, and this is part of what we're 0:09:49.022 --> 0:09:52.462 going to discuss. I know the world we live in now, 0:09:52.542 --> 0:09:54.702 you're not really meant to talk about that. So we're 0:09:54.702 --> 0:09:56.542 not meant to say that we don't eat chocolate, and 0:09:56.582 --> 0:09:58.502 we're not meant to talk about weight or bodies or 0:09:58.502 --> 0:10:02.182 comment on the fact that Victoria Beckham has been unbelievably 0:10:02.262 --> 0:10:05.822 thin for thirty years, but she has right Watching her 0:10:05.822 --> 0:10:08.062 talk about that, even in that, you could see how 0:10:08.142 --> 0:10:13.302 much it aimed her to discuss it. I found really 0:10:13.342 --> 0:10:16.542 insightful because it just spoke to me of a very 0:10:16.582 --> 0:10:21.182 specific moment in culture and what that does to you 0:10:21.222 --> 0:10:24.262 over decades. Obviously an example of that and that level 0:10:24.262 --> 0:10:26.422 of attention, we're about to play you a grab of 0:10:26.862 --> 0:10:30.462 Posh as she was universally known in those days, appearing 0:10:30.542 --> 0:10:33.862 on a very high profile television show hosted by a 0:10:34.022 --> 0:10:37.582 very high profile host called Chris Evans in nineteen ninety nine, 0:10:37.662 --> 0:10:40.662 not long after she has had her baby, Brooklyn. Who 0:10:40.702 --> 0:10:43.062 will get to in the subject, I'm sure, And she 0:10:43.342 --> 0:10:45.381 goes on the show and he asks her about her 0:10:45.382 --> 0:10:46.502 body and her baby weight. 0:10:46.822 --> 0:10:48.662 A lot of girls want to know, because you look 0:10:48.702 --> 0:10:50.622 fantastic again, how did you get back to your shape 0:10:50.662 --> 0:10:52.182 after your birth? I haven't done it. 0:10:52.182 --> 0:10:52.982 I mean, I'm really lazy. 0:10:53.102 --> 0:10:54.022 Let's go down. 0:10:54.182 --> 0:10:55.582 May be one of the Sickney women who didn't have. 0:10:55.582 --> 0:10:56.142 To do anything. 0:10:56.222 --> 0:10:56.862 I don't. I don't. 0:10:56.862 --> 0:10:58.742 Actually a lot of people say, does David help, you know, 0:10:58.822 --> 0:11:00.582 so work out? 0:11:01.662 --> 0:11:02.182 What way is that? 0:11:02.422 --> 0:11:02.702 I don't? 0:11:02.742 --> 0:11:04.902 No idea spot for USh? 0:11:04.942 --> 0:11:05.102 You know? 0:11:05.262 --> 0:11:08.142 Yeah, circuit training is your way back to normal? 0:11:08.262 --> 0:11:08.742 Yeah it is? 0:11:08.782 --> 0:11:09.302 Can I check? 0:11:10.062 --> 0:11:12.262 Oh no, you didn't, Jerry, didn't you? 0:11:12.782 --> 0:11:16.222 But Jerry was that really small? It's horrible. 0:11:16.582 --> 0:11:18.782 Oh my god, I cannot believe that happens. 0:11:18.822 --> 0:11:21.182 And he weighs her in on TV, which is something 0:11:21.222 --> 0:11:23.942 that people used to do, and you know what, not 0:11:24.102 --> 0:11:26.982 that long ago, I heard people weighing each other on 0:11:27.022 --> 0:11:29.742 the radio, like this is celebrity culture that is in 0:11:29.782 --> 0:11:33.262 the past that we can touch. And then she talks 0:11:33.422 --> 0:11:37.182 about the impact of the spotlight from being a young 0:11:37.262 --> 0:11:39.742 dancer all the way through to now on her body 0:11:39.742 --> 0:11:41.582 and body image, and it's probably the most honest she's 0:11:41.622 --> 0:11:42.302 ever been about it. 0:11:42.342 --> 0:11:46.102 This is what she says, when you have an eating disorder, 0:11:46.822 --> 0:11:49.182 you become very good at lying. And I was never 0:11:49.262 --> 0:11:52.542 honest about it with my parents. I never talked about 0:11:52.582 --> 0:11:56.462 it publicly. It really affects you when you're being told 0:11:56.662 --> 0:11:58.142 constantly you're not good enough. 0:11:58.822 --> 0:12:01.982 So it's a bit ambiguous about whether or not she 0:12:02.182 --> 0:12:06.062 is still struggling with that, but she certainly refers to 0:12:06.102 --> 0:12:09.422 this feeling of inadequacy that has fueled her her whole life. 0:12:09.662 --> 0:12:13.342 And yet when she says I was controlling it in 0:12:13.382 --> 0:12:17.022 an incredibly unhealthy way, it sounds like it's past tense. 0:12:17.022 --> 0:12:20.142 And I understand why she puts it into past tense. 0:12:20.182 --> 0:12:22.982 I think it's a much more palatable way to talk 0:12:23.022 --> 0:12:26.182 about any sort of mental illness, to have it as 0:12:26.342 --> 0:12:28.382 an arc which you have overcome. 0:12:28.542 --> 0:12:29.862 I actually she did do that. 0:12:30.022 --> 0:12:32.662 I felt as though it was implicit that the only 0:12:32.702 --> 0:12:35.822 reason she felt at all comfortable with it because this 0:12:35.982 --> 0:12:40.342 documentary was about triumph. It was about all the assumptions 0:12:40.342 --> 0:12:43.782 that had been made about her and her reinventions and basically, 0:12:43.822 --> 0:12:46.382 look at where I am now. And so it wouldn't 0:12:46.422 --> 0:12:49.422 have really fit for her to sit there and say, 0:12:50.062 --> 0:12:51.302 and I still have an aiding, Didace? 0:12:51.342 --> 0:12:51.622 You know what? 0:12:51.982 --> 0:12:54.702 I think that's so interesting because I saw it so differently, 0:12:54.862 --> 0:12:58.182 because the narrative we would all be really comfortable with 0:12:58.942 --> 0:13:01.462 would be an explicit one of and this is we've 0:13:01.462 --> 0:13:05.062 seen it a million times. I was struggling. I'm not 0:13:05.222 --> 0:13:08.062 struggling now. I now have learned to have a healthy 0:13:08.102 --> 0:13:10.822 relationship with my body, my image, my food. She didn't 0:13:10.822 --> 0:13:13.782 say any of that, and in fact, it is incredibly 0:13:13.862 --> 0:13:17.182 clear from how much she talked about control, how much 0:13:17.222 --> 0:13:20.662 she talked about hating literally hating what she looks like. 0:13:21.102 --> 0:13:22.382 And this is a woman who's had to look at 0:13:22.422 --> 0:13:25.062 pictures of herself for thirty years, bestorked by the paparazzi, 0:13:25.102 --> 0:13:28.502 all those things. It's incredibly clear, really when you watch 0:13:28.542 --> 0:13:32.141 this that she is still incredibly self conscious. Anytime a 0:13:32.182 --> 0:13:35.182 camera has pointed at her, she is intensely buttoned up 0:13:35.182 --> 0:13:37.582 and controlled, even when it's doing a TikTok dance with 0:13:37.622 --> 0:13:39.942 her daughter. You know, there's a scene where she and 0:13:39.982 --> 0:13:42.382 Harper do a TikTok dance in there what looks like 0:13:42.462 --> 0:13:45.422 skyscraper in londartment. Yeah, and she's like, oh yeah, the 0:13:45.462 --> 0:13:50.502 angle's flattering, Like she is so steeped in that controlling 0:13:50.622 --> 0:13:54.182 diet culture of the time. I don't think she's pretending 0:13:54.222 --> 0:13:54.622 she's free. 0:13:54.862 --> 0:13:57.982 Flattering is in fact her highest compliment. She says that's 0:13:57.982 --> 0:14:00.342 why she started a clothing line is because she wanted 0:14:00.382 --> 0:14:03.182 to make flattering clothing. But I think why this felt 0:14:03.182 --> 0:14:05.742 like such a big deal is because, as you say, Holly, 0:14:05.862 --> 0:14:10.142 we've known Victoria Beckham for thirty years and there should 0:14:10.182 --> 0:14:14.022 be actually nothing surprising necessarily about her admitting this. Shocking 0:14:14.102 --> 0:14:17.902 as it is, it shouldn't be surprising. And yet Hadley Freeman, 0:14:18.022 --> 0:14:20.942 who's a writer in the UK Times, who herself has 0:14:20.982 --> 0:14:23.982 written about extensively her own struggles with an eating disorder 0:14:23.982 --> 0:14:27.262 as a teenager, she points out that we've been looking 0:14:27.262 --> 0:14:31.062 at Victoria looking this way for years, for decades, and 0:14:31.142 --> 0:14:33.982 yet somehow we didn't want to see what was obvious. 0:14:34.022 --> 0:14:38.062 We didn't even want to acknowledge it until she herself 0:14:38.302 --> 0:14:39.702 said it on this show. 0:14:40.302 --> 0:14:42.662 And we've got to ask why that is, because we 0:14:42.782 --> 0:14:43.342 do this all. 0:14:43.262 --> 0:14:46.622 The time, when celebrities become half the size that they 0:14:46.662 --> 0:14:49.462 once were. Ariana Grande, we saw this recently. It was 0:14:49.502 --> 0:14:51.822 almost like we weren't allowed to talk about it. 0:14:51.822 --> 0:14:54.782 It seems like there is something so different about our 0:14:54.822 --> 0:14:57.182 treatment of any sort of eating disorders, no matter how 0:14:57.222 --> 0:15:00.582 it manifests in how your body looks. But it seems 0:15:00.582 --> 0:15:03.502 to be the only mental illness to which we afford 0:15:03.702 --> 0:15:07.302 barely any empathy. It's a mental illness that we approach 0:15:07.382 --> 0:15:11.222 with contempt and often anger. Just like, why does she 0:15:11.302 --> 0:15:13.582 look like that impossible beauty standard? 0:15:13.662 --> 0:15:13.782 Is that? 0:15:13.822 --> 0:15:14.622 Blah blah blah? 0:15:14.662 --> 0:15:16.702 Is that why you're saying that we don't talk about 0:15:16.742 --> 0:15:18.702 it because we just don't. 0:15:18.462 --> 0:15:19.342 Regard it as real. 0:15:19.422 --> 0:15:21.462 Maybe, yeah, we don't regard it as an illness, and. 0:15:21.422 --> 0:15:25.582 I think also as something that is like endemic to Hollywood, 0:15:25.822 --> 0:15:27.302 to celebrity. 0:15:26.782 --> 0:15:28.502 Cost costs to join business. Yeah. 0:15:28.542 --> 0:15:31.142 So in that essay, Freeman said as well, why would 0:15:31.222 --> 0:15:34.662 any celebrity recover from anorexia given how high the rewards 0:15:34.742 --> 0:15:38.702 now are for extreme thinness? Like that's it's the game 0:15:38.742 --> 0:15:40.502 and she's playing it, which sounds like a really callous 0:15:40.542 --> 0:15:43.542 way to describe it. But it is an illness. But 0:15:43.662 --> 0:15:47.902 because it's an illness that almost conforms to a standard 0:15:47.942 --> 0:15:51.622 that society rewards, we just don't want to treat it 0:15:51.662 --> 0:15:52.902 with any empathy. 0:15:53.102 --> 0:15:55.342 Yeah, because for exactly that reason, because it is a 0:15:55.382 --> 0:15:58.062 standard that society rewards. But this is the thing, is 0:15:58.102 --> 0:16:02.102 that my complex feelings about watching Posh talk about that. 0:16:02.142 --> 0:16:05.662 And I may have been over empathizing because I feel 0:16:05.702 --> 0:16:08.022 like I know Victoria Beckham when obviously I don't. But 0:16:08.062 --> 0:16:11.382 she has been so front and center in pop culture 0:16:11.382 --> 0:16:15.022 for so long, but it's very complicated to think of 0:16:15.102 --> 0:16:17.302 the fact that someone who is part of the problem. 0:16:17.382 --> 0:16:21.422 So she was in those naughty size zero years, the 0:16:21.502 --> 0:16:24.622 pictures of her in tiny little hotpants when she had 0:16:24.622 --> 0:16:26.382 the big fake boobs, which she also talks about in 0:16:26.382 --> 0:16:28.302 the show and says I buried those in Baden Baden, 0:16:28.342 --> 0:16:31.702 which was a European championships where all the wags looked 0:16:31.742 --> 0:16:34.302 like that, and she was the queen right, tiny, like 0:16:34.502 --> 0:16:37.502 really tiny, tinier than a seven year old child. Tiny, 0:16:37.742 --> 0:16:39.942 but with the big boobs, tiny hotpants, all those things 0:16:40.302 --> 0:16:42.942 that was held up and put everywhere as almost like 0:16:43.102 --> 0:16:45.982 a warning but also something you want right, So it's 0:16:46.062 --> 0:16:50.902 like ooh, yum, yum, ooh, that's the vibe. And the 0:16:50.982 --> 0:16:53.862 thing is is that the complicated relationship you have with 0:16:53.942 --> 0:16:56.222 Posh is that she was part of that problem because 0:16:56.222 --> 0:16:58.862 she was the pinup, one of the primary pinups. She 0:16:59.102 --> 0:17:01.222 still is in a way, and that this is what 0:17:01.262 --> 0:17:02.982 I mean about. I don't think she was trying to 0:17:02.982 --> 0:17:05.141 suggest that all her issues with food and body are 0:17:05.142 --> 0:17:07.821 in the past. She has not changed even an iota, 0:17:07.902 --> 0:17:11.182 as in still clearly something she works very hard at 0:17:11.382 --> 0:17:14.022 and considers the height of beauty. So she is part 0:17:14.101 --> 0:17:16.982 of the problem, but she's also a victim of the problem. 0:17:17.061 --> 0:17:19.502 And I think that's really confusing to try and hold 0:17:19.581 --> 0:17:22.341 in your head, because for me, there was a really 0:17:22.381 --> 0:17:25.462 telling bit because she has literally been followed by paparazzi, 0:17:25.861 --> 0:17:28.902 as I say, for three decades through lots of phases 0:17:28.901 --> 0:17:31.261 of her life. And there's a telling bit where her 0:17:31.262 --> 0:17:33.621 and Eva Longot because she becomes friends with the Hollywoods 0:17:33.621 --> 0:17:35.542 when she goes to live in la when David goes 0:17:35.581 --> 0:17:38.581 to place for Galaxy, and she and Eva Longoria a 0:17:38.821 --> 0:17:41.341 being papped when they're out on Mulholland drive or whatever, 0:17:41.742 --> 0:17:44.262 and she said I couldn't believe her relaxed in front 0:17:44.262 --> 0:17:46.581 of the cameras Eva Longoria was. And this is a 0:17:46.621 --> 0:17:48.621 time too when she was very thin and the Desperate 0:17:48.661 --> 0:17:52.101 Housewives size zero era, but she was like, she didn't 0:17:52.101 --> 0:17:54.061 seem to care whether she smiled in a way that 0:17:54.141 --> 0:17:56.462 gave her a double chin or whether she like looked, 0:17:56.661 --> 0:18:00.262 whereas Posh was clearly has been. So I'm going to 0:18:00.381 --> 0:18:02.821 use the word that might make some people roll their eyes, 0:18:02.861 --> 0:18:06.141 but like traumatized by that glare and that criticism and 0:18:06.141 --> 0:18:10.381 that relentless comparison from a very formative young that she 0:18:10.702 --> 0:18:12.742 can't just be in the world, so she's in awe 0:18:12.782 --> 0:18:14.821 of people who can. And she clearly is still that 0:18:14.861 --> 0:18:17.741 way because one of the things about this doco, it's 0:18:17.821 --> 0:18:19.861 quite a shallow doco. As we said, I enjoyed it 0:18:19.901 --> 0:18:21.581 for lots of reasons we'll get into in the subset, 0:18:21.661 --> 0:18:24.542 but it was meant to be, as you say, a 0:18:24.661 --> 0:18:27.782 victorious thing but also a plucky Vicky you know, go 0:18:27.861 --> 0:18:30.021 buy an eyeliner because she's been through some tough times 0:18:30.101 --> 0:18:34.022 kind of vibe. She is clearly still unbelievably self conscious 0:18:34.022 --> 0:18:37.502 about her appearance, every angle, every shot, every and I 0:18:37.542 --> 0:18:39.101 don't know, I felt a lot of empathy for it 0:18:39.101 --> 0:18:40.341 because I think it's complicated. 0:18:40.542 --> 0:18:43.661 Yeah, and there were some specifics, like she referred to 0:18:43.982 --> 0:18:46.581