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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia out Loud. It's a brand new week. This

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Speaker 2: is what women are actually talking about on Monday, the

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Speaker 2: thirteenth of October. My name is Holly.

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Speaker 3: Wayne right, I am Amelia Luster and I am Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 3: I have a fun fact before we start the show today.

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Speaker 3: Did you know so I've been seeing a pelvic floor

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Speaker 3: physio again to try and sort out.

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Speaker 2: The This is earlier in the piece than earlier in time.

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Speaker 2: She's pregnant. If anyone's wondering, if any out Loud is

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Speaker 2: you're like, why, so interact with whether or not Jesse's

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Speaker 2: seeing someone about her pelvic floor.

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Speaker 3: We've discussed with twins, right, and so I'm going, I

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Speaker 3: don't want to head hanging out at twenty weeks. Let's

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Speaker 3: sort this out. So I went and she was telling

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Speaker 3: me that when you sneeze as a woman, you're meant

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Speaker 3: to pull up. Did you know that from your pelvic floor?

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Speaker 3: So when you know you're going to sneeze, you're meant

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Speaker 3: to almost like a straw, get your floor and suck

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Speaker 3: it up through a straw so that you don't let

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Speaker 3: a little bit of way out. So now it's very

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Speaker 3: poliny in the like in Sydney. At the moment, everyone's sneezing,

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Speaker 3: So I keep sneezing, and I keep trying to do.

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Speaker 2: That as I'm interesting that every sneeze is a little

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Speaker 2: opportunity for self optimization exactly.

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Speaker 4: That reminds me, though, that I had a Floti Sitchu

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Speaker 4: once who said every woman is always clenching her buttocks,

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Speaker 4: So just think of that every time you think of

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Speaker 4: it unclenched.

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Speaker 3: It's very true. And your buttocks is not your public floor.

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Speaker 3: This is what my public floor phy say. She'd say,

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Speaker 3: let go of your.

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Speaker 4: Bum and of your bar matladers, hold on to your barm.

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Speaker 1: Two things.

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Speaker 2: Is making me all funny, you won't, sir. Anyway, None

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Speaker 2: of that actually made our agenda for today. What made

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Speaker 2: our agenda for today immediate Elesta.

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Speaker 4: Victoria Beckham has a new docu series on Netflix, and

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Speaker 4: she's made some big revelations in there about her complicated

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Speaker 4: relationship with food.

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Speaker 3: Plus Julia Morris says planes should have a women's only

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Speaker 3: section and hundreds of women have come forward sharing their

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Speaker 3: own horror stories. Does she have a point?

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Speaker 2: And Princess Kate has written an essay guaranteed to make

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Speaker 2: you squirm in guilty recognition.

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Speaker 4: But first, Amelia, but first, all eyes are on the

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Speaker 4: Middle East. Today it's Monday here in Australia and her

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Speaker 4: Mass has until eight o'clock Australian Eastern time tonight to

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Speaker 4: release all twenty remaining living hostages that are being held

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Speaker 4: in Gaza back to Israel. Israel has said this could

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Speaker 4: happen anytime today, starting it around midday Australian Eastern time,

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Speaker 4: and then after that process is done, Israel is going

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Speaker 4: to release about two thousand Palestinian detainees that it has.

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Speaker 4: Donald Trump is on his way there. Before he got

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Speaker 4: on the plane, he declared war is over. But of

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Speaker 4: course there is still a lot to be worked out,

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Speaker 4: and there is some last minute negotiating happening as we

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Speaker 4: entered this record between Hamas and Israel about which Palestinian

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Speaker 4: detainees are going to be released. But Trump is going

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Speaker 4: to go to eat next after this, assuming everything goes well,

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Speaker 4: and it's there that there's going to be a peace

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Speaker 4: plan for Gars assigned after some seven hundred and thirty

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Speaker 4: six days of war. So look, obviously things are unfolding

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Speaker 4: as we are recording here now, and they will continue

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Speaker 4: to do so over the coming couple of days. But

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Speaker 4: the Quickie is here to keep us updated this afternoon,

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Speaker 4: this evening, and then going forward on how everything unfolds.

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Speaker 2: Please don't tell anyone that I've been looking at paparazzi images,

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Speaker 2: because mom and mea, we do not support paparazzi economy.

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Speaker 3: But Holly, sometimes we see headlines without our own permission.

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Speaker 3: They just pop up out of nowhere, and you can't

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Speaker 3: see a headline.

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Speaker 4: Can we agree that every time we look at a

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Speaker 4: paparazzi image unwishingly or not necessarily by choice, that we

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Speaker 4: work on lifting our pelvic floor? Maybe?

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Speaker 1: Yes?

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Speaker 3: So true? A ten second hands?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, ten seconds holds? So I did at least a

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Speaker 2: thirty minute hold because I promise I didn't click through.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, I don't want you to know that I've

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Speaker 2: been looking at paparazi images, but I have, and I'm sorry,

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Speaker 2: but I have schoreless gossip from these images that Katie

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Speaker 2: Perry is definitely on with that just intrude.

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Speaker 1: Oh I love this story. I actually love there.

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Speaker 2: We talked about this schroreless gossip a while ago on

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Speaker 2: out Loud, and then it was kind of denied by

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Speaker 2: their camps.

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Speaker 4: I went on a date, yes, oh yeah, and he

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Speaker 4: was like, listen, we're just seeing each other as friends. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: I'm not romantically interested. Mate.

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Speaker 2: If you have glimpsed these images, there is nothing platonic

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Speaker 2: about them. They are I'll tell you so you don't

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Speaker 2: have to look out louder, so you can keep your

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Speaker 2: integrity intact. They are on Katie's yacht off the coast

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Speaker 2: of Santa Barbara. Apparently she's in a swimsuit and he's

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Speaker 2: in jeans, which I have a lot of questions about that,

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Speaker 2: but they are embracing and although you could argue, well,

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Speaker 2: friends hug each other when they see each other, his

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Speaker 2: hands are in places that friends do not go. Friends

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Speaker 2: do not put their hands there. So I just want

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Speaker 2: to tell you this is very exciting. I don't think

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Speaker 2: this is just about justin trying to get Canada on

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Speaker 2: Katie's next space mission. I don't think it's that. I

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Speaker 2: think they're on I'm excited scoreless gossip. I'm here for it.

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Speaker 3: Things are looking out for Katie. I think Katie's had

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Speaker 3: her rough twelve months. She copped a bit and I

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Speaker 3: think that she's due for a bit of good luck.

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Speaker 3: And I'm just all for it.

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Speaker 2: Is here, good dude, Amelia. You know things about politics

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Speaker 2: out side of the world, and he used to be

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Speaker 2: the prime minister Rink Canada.

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Speaker 3: He's a good issue.

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Speaker 4: It seems to hate him now for some reason.

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Speaker 3: I think that's just what happens when you used to

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Speaker 3: be the pan Wasn't his.

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Speaker 4: Dad like a notorious sort of celebrity hanger out.

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Speaker 2: Holy They are definitely a celebrity family, right those guys. Yeah, Yeah, definitely.

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Speaker 4: What I'm wondering about off the coast of Santa Barbara.

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Speaker 4: You know where that is, right, Montesito, anyone. I'm wondering

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Speaker 4: because Megan need I unpack this all for you. Megan

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Speaker 4: is good friends with Justin's ex wife. Yes, that's right,

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Speaker 4: and they have spent summer days together Paul side at

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Speaker 4: Megan and Harry's. I'm wondering, was there an awkward run

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Speaker 4: in at the Montecito shops.

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Speaker 3: Maybe they were looking out over the water and they

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Speaker 3: had their monoculars.

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Speaker 4: Well, because Katie and Orlando lived next door to Megan

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Speaker 4: and Harry, so it's all very messy.

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Speaker 2: Harry once said that Orlander would tip him off about

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Speaker 2: paps in the neighborhood. See I've seen the pap down

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Speaker 2: at IgA.

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Speaker 1: You better watch out.

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Speaker 2: And then you're right, because Megan has often talked about

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Speaker 2: having the Canadian first family round. That's when they were together.

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Speaker 2: So hot scandal it down.

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Speaker 4: The good that Oprah also lives there has sorted out

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Speaker 4: for them. So there's a new documentary series out, a

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Speaker 4: three part documentary on Netflix telling the life story of

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Speaker 4: Victoria Beckham. So you remember last year was the David

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Speaker 4: Beckham Netflix documentary. This year it's Victoria's turn. And Holly,

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Speaker 4: you asked me last week if I was enjoying watching

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Speaker 4: it because I just started watching it.

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Speaker 2: You watched the first app before I had seen it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I was like it good like And I said,

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Speaker 4: you know, Holly, I'm finding it really hard to watch.

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Speaker 4: And I recounted a scene in the first episode that

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Speaker 4: has really stayed with me. David and Victoria are swanning

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Speaker 4: around their really marvelously charming looking country house kitchen and

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Speaker 4: they're about to.

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Speaker 1: Go out to an event.

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Speaker 4: And one detail I love in this is that they

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Speaker 4: both really like expensive wine, and David had poured them

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Speaker 4: both big you know, those big rich person goblets of

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Speaker 4: wine to drink before they went to an event, and

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Speaker 4: I guess they didn't have time to drink them, so

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Speaker 4: David pours them into flasks, essentially to drink in the

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Speaker 4: back of their limousine sippy cups. But then he also

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Speaker 4: says to her, do you want a whisper? There's a

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Speaker 4: little draw full of chocolate in their kitchen and it's

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Speaker 4: one of those fun size I guess is whisper a

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Speaker 4: British chocolate.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's gorgeous. It's kind of like a flake covered

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Speaker 2: in chocolate, but more air. Aw we it's They're delicious.

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Speaker 2: Whispers are delish.

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Speaker 4: So he says to her, do you want a whisper?

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Speaker 4: And then she makes a joke something along the lines

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Speaker 4: of not having touched chocolate since the nineties, I'm not

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Speaker 4: going to start eating it now. And I just thought,

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Speaker 4: this person clearly has a disordered relationship with food. And

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Speaker 4: that's what I said to you, And then that became

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Speaker 4: a theme of the whole show, didn't it?

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Speaker 2: It did? I was going to say, because that on

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Speaker 2: its own was kind of like, oh, yeah, we know,

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Speaker 2: we know. And also there was a lot of footage

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Speaker 2: in that first episode of them at the gym. Do

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Speaker 2: you notice that lots of less Victoria doing weights, lots

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Speaker 2: of midlife weightlifting, you know how that's what the ladies

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Speaker 2: are into. And I don't know what the protein count

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Speaker 2: and a whisper is so like she wouldn't be Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I don't think. I don't think she'd be guzzling those anyway.

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Speaker 2: But in the second episode we will have a few

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Speaker 2: spoilers in this but for people who really want to

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Speaker 2: dive into what we thought of the whole show, we're

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Speaker 2: going to do a special subject about it for tomorrow

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Speaker 2: for Tuesday. But in episode two they talk about the

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Speaker 2: food and the diet culture and eating disorders in a

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Speaker 2: more head on fashion right, And I actually found it

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Speaker 2: really moving and insightful. And I know there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of criticism about how surface level this show is, and

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Speaker 2: it is I think certainly compared to the David Beckham documentary.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't feel anywhere near as deep. But Victoria Beckham

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Speaker 2: POSH or Lady Beckham, as the BBC always calls her,

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Speaker 2: which I just love. Go and read some reporting on

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Speaker 2: the BBC website about this show, and even when talking

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Speaker 2: about the most mundane thing like wine sippy cups, they

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Speaker 2: referred to as Lady Beckham.

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Speaker 3: She'd love that, she would love that.

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Speaker 2: Lady Beckham is one of those celebrities who she has

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Speaker 2: been famous for thirty years. She is an absolute icon

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Speaker 2: of gen X culture in all her different guys is

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Speaker 2: and her skinniness. And I'm just going to say it

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Speaker 2: because I know, and this is part of what we're

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Speaker 2: going to discuss. I know the world we live in now,

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Speaker 2: you're not really meant to talk about that. So we're

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Speaker 2: not meant to say that we don't eat chocolate, and

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Speaker 2: we're not meant to talk about weight or bodies or

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Speaker 2: comment on the fact that Victoria Beckham has been unbelievably

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Speaker 2: thin for thirty years, but she has right Watching her

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Speaker 2: talk about that, even in that, you could see how

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Speaker 2: much it aimed her to discuss it. I found really

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Speaker 2: insightful because it just spoke to me of a very

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Speaker 2: specific moment in culture and what that does to you

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Speaker 2: over decades. Obviously an example of that and that level

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Speaker 2: of attention, we're about to play you a grab of

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Speaker 2: Posh as she was universally known in those days, appearing

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Speaker 2: on a very high profile television show hosted by a

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Speaker 2: very high profile host called Chris Evans in nineteen ninety nine,

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Speaker 2: not long after she has had her baby, Brooklyn. Who

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Speaker 2: will get to in the subject, I'm sure, And she

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Speaker 2: goes on the show and he asks her about her

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Speaker 2: body and her baby weight.

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Speaker 5: A lot of girls want to know, because you look

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Speaker 5: fantastic again, how did you get back to your shape

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Speaker 5: after your birth? I haven't done it.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I'm really lazy.

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Speaker 1: Let's go down.

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Speaker 2: May be one of the Sickney women who didn't have.

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Speaker 4: To do anything.

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Speaker 1: I don't. I don't.

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Speaker 5: Actually a lot of people say, does David help, you know,

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Speaker 5: so work out?

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Speaker 4: What way is that?

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Speaker 3: I don't?

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Speaker 5: No idea spot for USh?

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Speaker 4: You know?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, circuit training is your way back to normal?

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Speaker 4: Yeah it is?

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Speaker 3: Can I check?

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Speaker 5: Oh no, you didn't, Jerry, didn't you?

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Speaker 2: But Jerry was that really small? It's horrible.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, I cannot believe that happens.

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Speaker 2: And he weighs her in on TV, which is something

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Speaker 2: that people used to do, and you know what, not

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Speaker 2: that long ago, I heard people weighing each other on

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Speaker 2: the radio, like this is celebrity culture that is in

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Speaker 2: the past that we can touch. And then she talks

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Speaker 2: about the impact of the spotlight from being a young

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Speaker 2: dancer all the way through to now on her body

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Speaker 2: and body image, and it's probably the most honest she's

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Speaker 2: ever been about it.

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Speaker 5: This is what she says, when you have an eating disorder,

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Speaker 5: you become very good at lying. And I was never

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Speaker 5: honest about it with my parents. I never talked about

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Speaker 5: it publicly. It really affects you when you're being told

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Speaker 5: constantly you're not good enough.

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Speaker 4: So it's a bit ambiguous about whether or not she

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Speaker 4: is still struggling with that, but she certainly refers to

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Speaker 4: this feeling of inadequacy that has fueled her her whole life.

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Speaker 3: And yet when she says I was controlling it in

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Speaker 3: an incredibly unhealthy way, it sounds like it's past tense.

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Speaker 3: And I understand why she puts it into past tense.

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Speaker 3: I think it's a much more palatable way to talk

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Speaker 3: about any sort of mental illness, to have it as

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Speaker 3: an arc which you have overcome.

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Speaker 2: I actually she did do that.

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Speaker 3: I felt as though it was implicit that the only

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Speaker 3: reason she felt at all comfortable with it because this

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Speaker 3: documentary was about triumph. It was about all the assumptions

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Speaker 3: that had been made about her and her reinventions and basically,

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Speaker 3: look at where I am now. And so it wouldn't

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Speaker 3: have really fit for her to sit there and say,

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Speaker 3: and I still have an aiding, Didace?

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Speaker 4: You know what?

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Speaker 2: I think that's so interesting because I saw it so differently,

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Speaker 2: because the narrative we would all be really comfortable with

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Speaker 2: would be an explicit one of and this is we've

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Speaker 2: seen it a million times. I was struggling. I'm not

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Speaker 2: struggling now. I now have learned to have a healthy

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Speaker 2: relationship with my body, my image, my food. She didn't

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Speaker 2: say any of that, and in fact, it is incredibly

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Speaker 2: clear from how much she talked about control, how much

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Speaker 2: she talked about hating literally hating what she looks like.

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Speaker 2: And this is a woman who's had to look at

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Speaker 2: pictures of herself for thirty years, bestorked by the paparazzi,

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Speaker 2: all those things. It's incredibly clear, really when you watch

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Speaker 2: this that she is still incredibly self conscious. Anytime a

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Speaker 2: camera has pointed at her, she is intensely buttoned up

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Speaker 2: and controlled, even when it's doing a TikTok dance with

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Speaker 2: her daughter. You know, there's a scene where she and

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Speaker 2: Harper do a TikTok dance in there what looks like

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Speaker 2: skyscraper in londartment. Yeah, and she's like, oh yeah, the

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Speaker 2: angle's flattering, Like she is so steeped in that controlling

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Speaker 2: diet culture of the time. I don't think she's pretending

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Speaker 2: she's free.

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Speaker 4: Flattering is in fact her highest compliment. She says that's

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Speaker 4: why she started a clothing line is because she wanted

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Speaker 4: to make flattering clothing. But I think why this felt

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Speaker 4: like such a big deal is because, as you say, Holly,

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Speaker 4: we've known Victoria Beckham for thirty years and there should

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Speaker 4: be actually nothing surprising necessarily about her admitting this. Shocking

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Speaker 4: as it is, it shouldn't be surprising. And yet Hadley Freeman,

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Speaker 4: who's a writer in the UK Times, who herself has

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Speaker 4: written about extensively her own struggles with an eating disorder

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Speaker 4: as a teenager, she points out that we've been looking

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Speaker 4: at Victoria looking this way for years, for decades, and

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Speaker 4: yet somehow we didn't want to see what was obvious.

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Speaker 4: We didn't even want to acknowledge it until she herself

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Speaker 4: said it on this show.

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Speaker 1: And we've got to ask why that is, because we

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Speaker 1: do this all.

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Speaker 4: The time, when celebrities become half the size that they

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Speaker 4: once were. Ariana Grande, we saw this recently. It was

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Speaker 4: almost like we weren't allowed to talk about it.

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Speaker 3: It seems like there is something so different about our

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Speaker 3: treatment of any sort of eating disorders, no matter how

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Speaker 3: it manifests in how your body looks. But it seems

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Speaker 3: to be the only mental illness to which we afford

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Speaker 3: barely any empathy. It's a mental illness that we approach

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Speaker 3: with contempt and often anger. Just like, why does she

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Speaker 3: look like that impossible beauty standard?

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Speaker 4: Is that?

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Speaker 1: Blah blah blah?

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Speaker 4: Is that why you're saying that we don't talk about

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Speaker 4: it because we just don't.

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Speaker 1: Regard it as real.

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Speaker 4: Maybe, yeah, we don't regard it as an illness, and.

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Speaker 3: I think also as something that is like endemic to Hollywood,

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Speaker 3: to celebrity.

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Speaker 1: Cost costs to join business. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So in that essay, Freeman said as well, why would

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Speaker 3: any celebrity recover from anorexia given how high the rewards

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Speaker 3: now are for extreme thinness? Like that's it's the game

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Speaker 3: and she's playing it, which sounds like a really callous

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Speaker 3: way to describe it. But it is an illness. But

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Speaker 3: because it's an illness that almost conforms to a standard

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Speaker 3: that society rewards, we just don't want to treat it

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Speaker 3: with any empathy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because for exactly that reason, because it is a

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Speaker 2: standard that society rewards. But this is the thing, is

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Speaker 2: that my complex feelings about watching Posh talk about that.

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Speaker 2: And I may have been over empathizing because I feel

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Speaker 2: like I know Victoria Beckham when obviously I don't. But

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Speaker 2: she has been so front and center in pop culture

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Speaker 2: for so long, but it's very complicated to think of

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Speaker 2: the fact that someone who is part of the problem.

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Speaker 2: So she was in those naughty size zero years, the

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Speaker 2: pictures of her in tiny little hotpants when she had

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Speaker 2: the big fake boobs, which she also talks about in

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Speaker 2: the show and says I buried those in Baden Baden,

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Speaker 2: which was a European championships where all the wags looked

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Speaker 2: like that, and she was the queen right, tiny, like

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Speaker 2: really tiny, tinier than a seven year old child. Tiny,

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Speaker 2: but with the big boobs, tiny hotpants, all those things

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Speaker 2: that was held up and put everywhere as almost like

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Speaker 2: a warning but also something you want right, So it's

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Speaker 2: like ooh, yum, yum, ooh, that's the vibe. And the

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Speaker 2: thing is is that the complicated relationship you have with

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Speaker 2: Posh is that she was part of that problem because

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Speaker 2: she was the pinup, one of the primary pinups. She

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Speaker 2: still is in a way, and that this is what

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Speaker 2: I mean about. I don't think she was trying to

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Speaker 2: suggest that all her issues with food and body are

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Speaker 2: in the past. She has not changed even an iota,

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Speaker 2: as in still clearly something she works very hard at

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Speaker 2: and considers the height of beauty. So she is part

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Speaker 2: of the problem, but she's also a victim of the problem.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's really confusing to try and hold

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Speaker 2: in your head, because for me, there was a really

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Speaker 2: telling bit because she has literally been followed by paparazzi,

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Speaker 2: as I say, for three decades through lots of phases

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Speaker 2: of her life. And there's a telling bit where her

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Speaker 2: and Eva Longot because she becomes friends with the Hollywoods

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Speaker 2: when she goes to live in la when David goes

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Speaker 2: to place for Galaxy, and she and Eva Longoria a

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Speaker 2: being papped when they're out on Mulholland drive or whatever,

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Speaker 2: and she said I couldn't believe her relaxed in front

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Speaker 2: of the cameras Eva Longoria was. And this is a

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Speaker 2: time too when she was very thin and the Desperate

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Speaker 2: Housewives size zero era, but she was like, she didn't

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Speaker 2: seem to care whether she smiled in a way that

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Speaker 2: gave her a double chin or whether she like looked,

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Speaker 2: whereas Posh was clearly has been. So I'm going to

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Speaker 2: use the word that might make some people roll their eyes,

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Speaker 2: but like traumatized by that glare and that criticism and

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Speaker 2: that relentless comparison from a very formative young that she

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Speaker 2: can't just be in the world, so she's in awe

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Speaker 2: of people who can. And she clearly is still that

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Speaker 2: way because one of the things about this doco, it's

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Speaker 2: quite a shallow doco. As we said, I enjoyed it

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Speaker 2: for lots of reasons we'll get into in the subset,

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Speaker 2: but it was meant to be, as you say, a

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Speaker 2: victorious thing but also a plucky Vicky you know, go

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Speaker 2: buy an eyeliner because she's been through some tough times

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Speaker 2: kind of vibe. She is clearly still unbelievably self conscious

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Speaker 2: about her appearance, every angle, every shot, every and I

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Speaker 2: don't know, I felt a lot of empathy for it

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Speaker 2: because I think it's complicated.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and there were some specifics, like she referred to

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Speaker 3: an article that was written eleven days after she gave

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Speaker 3: birth that was basically saying she was still carrying the

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Speaker 3: baby weight. And it also made me think of a

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Speaker 3: few years ago when David Beckham flippantly said in an

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Speaker 3: interview that Victoria had only eaten grilled fish and steamed

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Speaker 3: vegetables since he met her, and it started this big

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Speaker 3: discussion about whether or not that was healthy and whether

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Speaker 3: that was a sign of disordered eating. And we as

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Speaker 3: a society enabling this by like what allowing Victoria to exist? Like,

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Speaker 3: I don't know what I understand why we police our

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Speaker 3: own language in public, because I think that the way

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Speaker 3: that we talk about women's bodies publicly should be different

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Speaker 3: to how we might talk about them privately, because there's

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Speaker 3: more of a responsibility and you don't know who's listening,

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Speaker 3: and you don't know what they're going through, and everyone's

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Speaker 3: relationship is really complicated with it. But the idea that

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Speaker 3: that Victoria Beckham is being enabled by being allowed to

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Speaker 3: be on television have a job. When she's that thin,

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Speaker 3: we are enabling her.

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Speaker 4: I just look, I think we can all agree that

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Speaker 4: anyone who is struggling with the mental illness deserves empathy. Yeah,

422
00:19:53,702 --> 00:19:56,101
Speaker 4: of course includes people with eating disorders, which are among

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Speaker 4: the deadliest mental illnesses.

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Speaker 1: But stepping back a.

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Speaker 4: Little bit, like when David said that flippantly, or when

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Speaker 4: Victoria flippantly said I haven't eaten chocolate sinster nineties, that's

427
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Speaker 4: regarded as charming, Like whenever she talks about food, it's

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Speaker 4: in that same way as she does in the documentary,

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Speaker 4: Or when David said that about her eating the steamfish

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Speaker 4: and vegetables, and it kicked off a discourse about whether

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Speaker 4: we should enable that.

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Speaker 1: But it's not normal. It's not healthy to only eat

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Speaker 1: steam fish and vegetables for your whole life.

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Speaker 2: So my question is do we expect all the all

435
00:20:26,381 --> 00:20:28,621
Speaker 2: the famous people in the world to only present a

436
00:20:28,742 --> 00:20:31,782
Speaker 2: very well adjusted front to us at all times? Because

437
00:20:31,821 --> 00:20:33,222
Speaker 2: I agree with you, Amelia, like I agree with you

438
00:20:33,222 --> 00:20:34,101
Speaker 2: one hundred percent.

439
00:20:33,901 --> 00:20:36,821
Speaker 1: Like it's it made me feel bad, it's X.

440
00:20:36,901 --> 00:20:38,502
Speaker 2: This is the way that gen X women have always

441
00:20:38,502 --> 00:20:41,662
Speaker 2: talked about food, right, It's never just food, and it's

442
00:20:41,742 --> 00:20:44,981
Speaker 2: unfortunate and it's terrible, and I think we're prosecuting that.

443
00:20:45,341 --> 00:20:48,142
Speaker 2: But my question is is it better to edit all

444
00:20:48,141 --> 00:20:51,502
Speaker 2: that stuff out of it and pretend that Victoria Beckham

445
00:20:51,621 --> 00:20:53,742
Speaker 2: is healthier than she is when it comes to this stuff.

446
00:20:53,742 --> 00:20:54,941
Speaker 2: That's my genuine question.

447
00:20:55,262 --> 00:20:55,821
Speaker 1: I don't know.

448
00:20:55,901 --> 00:20:57,742
Speaker 4: I think my problem is not so much with how

449
00:20:57,861 --> 00:21:01,462
Speaker 4: Victoria Beckham talks about it as so much as what

450
00:21:01,542 --> 00:21:05,101
Speaker 4: message are we sending when we do reward these women

451
00:21:05,182 --> 00:21:08,222
Speaker 4: who are clearly have been starving themselves for decades and

452
00:21:08,262 --> 00:21:11,061
Speaker 4: say that's the height of fashion. That's literally fashion means

453
00:21:11,182 --> 00:21:13,621
Speaker 4: howeveryone wants to look and what is regarded as she

454
00:21:13,821 --> 00:21:16,782
Speaker 4: can trendy. We reward them with our money and with

455
00:21:16,861 --> 00:21:19,661
Speaker 4: our attention, and then we expect our children to not

456
00:21:19,742 --> 00:21:20,462
Speaker 4: listen to us.

457
00:21:20,782 --> 00:21:25,182
Speaker 2: But we reward them, and we also relentlessly criticize them.

458
00:21:25,222 --> 00:21:25,821
Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean?

459
00:21:25,861 --> 00:21:28,302
Speaker 3: We reward the culture while at the same time punishing

460
00:21:28,341 --> 00:21:30,381
Speaker 3: the individual. Yes, which is so cruel.

461
00:21:30,542 --> 00:21:32,381
Speaker 2: That's what I was kind of wrestling with when I'm saying,

462
00:21:32,422 --> 00:21:35,021
Speaker 2: she's like part of the problem with the whole I

463
00:21:35,022 --> 00:21:38,421
Speaker 2: haven't eaten chocolate since the nineties and also a victim

464
00:21:38,462 --> 00:21:40,542
Speaker 2: of it in that like, of course she's like that,

465
00:21:40,861 --> 00:21:44,101
Speaker 2: And I just wonder because I agree with you, but

466
00:21:44,422 --> 00:21:47,182
Speaker 2: I feel like there's freedom to me, or there's some

467
00:21:47,302 --> 00:21:50,942
Speaker 2: honesty to me. I think when women who are that

468
00:21:50,982 --> 00:21:55,182
Speaker 2: impossibly sin which is always held up as desirable, when actually,

469
00:21:55,302 --> 00:21:57,302
Speaker 2: if we're all being honest, I don't know that it

470
00:21:57,381 --> 00:22:01,182
Speaker 2: is that desirable to have such an you know, it's

471
00:22:01,222 --> 00:22:03,502
Speaker 2: hard to say the words without sounding critical, but such

472
00:22:03,542 --> 00:22:05,821
Speaker 2: a very very tiny body shape that clearly you have

473
00:22:05,861 --> 00:22:08,782
Speaker 2: to restrict yourself so heavily to have. But I guess

474
00:22:08,821 --> 00:22:12,341
Speaker 2: my point is, is it better if she pretends that

475
00:22:12,462 --> 00:22:13,462
Speaker 2: she eats burgers?

476
00:22:13,621 --> 00:22:14,302
Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean?

477
00:22:14,462 --> 00:22:16,701
Speaker 4: No, I completely see that question. I guess it just

478
00:22:16,742 --> 00:22:19,501
Speaker 4: comes back to look, Obviously, she's entitled to eat whatever

479
00:22:19,621 --> 00:22:22,022
Speaker 4: she wants, and if that's steamfish and vegetables are never

480
00:22:22,141 --> 00:22:25,901
Speaker 4: any chocolate, that's fine. But it makes me a bit sad.

481
00:22:25,901 --> 00:22:28,421
Speaker 4: And I also think it's a bit disingenuous to say

482
00:22:29,022 --> 00:22:31,581
Speaker 4: that she has only been a victim in this. She

483
00:22:31,661 --> 00:22:35,141
Speaker 4: has been rewarded with immense fame and fortune as a

484
00:22:35,182 --> 00:22:38,302
Speaker 4: result of starving herself. Now that's not her problem, that's

485
00:22:38,341 --> 00:22:40,061
Speaker 4: our problem.

486
00:22:40,101 --> 00:22:42,661
Speaker 2: I think she's both I think that's what's complicated about it.

487
00:22:42,742 --> 00:22:47,421
Speaker 2: I think she's both. I think personally I felt sad,

488
00:22:47,821 --> 00:22:50,462
Speaker 2: Like after episode term particular, I felt really sad, and

489
00:22:50,621 --> 00:22:52,181
Speaker 2: I was glad about that. I don't want to just

490
00:22:52,222 --> 00:22:55,622
Speaker 2: watch something that just makes me go perfect, happy, shiny life,

491
00:22:55,702 --> 00:22:57,942
Speaker 2: no problems there, Like I liked it.

492
00:22:58,061 --> 00:23:01,502
Speaker 3: Before we move on, can I please have everyone's topline thoughts,

493
00:23:01,542 --> 00:23:03,341
Speaker 3: because there are gonna be people who did their homework.

494
00:23:03,381 --> 00:23:06,302
Speaker 3: We told them this weekend, your homework is to watch

495
00:23:06,381 --> 00:23:08,342
Speaker 3: Victoria Beckham. I'll be the first put my hand out

496
00:23:08,381 --> 00:23:10,461
Speaker 3: and go. I didn't complete the homework. I didn't. I

497
00:23:10,462 --> 00:23:13,981
Speaker 3: didn't get through episode three yet I will complain it.

498
00:23:14,061 --> 00:23:16,262
Speaker 4: Well, you'll never find out what happens with the fashion show.

499
00:23:16,742 --> 00:23:20,542
Speaker 4: I just love how the stakes of fashion and sports

500
00:23:20,542 --> 00:23:23,181
Speaker 4: documentaries they're both the same. It's like I get so

501
00:23:23,341 --> 00:23:26,141
Speaker 4: invested in things that actually don't matter very much, and

502
00:23:26,141 --> 00:23:26,821
Speaker 4: that's wonderful.

503
00:23:26,861 --> 00:23:29,221
Speaker 3: See I disagree that they're the same. A sports docko

504
00:23:29,502 --> 00:23:31,661
Speaker 3: I will get right into because I feel like the

505
00:23:31,702 --> 00:23:34,302
Speaker 3: stakes are simple as winning or losing. I felt like

506
00:23:34,341 --> 00:23:37,422
Speaker 3: I was watching an episode of Project Runway where it

507
00:23:37,462 --> 00:23:39,861
Speaker 3: was kind of like about Tim guhnn yes or like

508
00:23:39,942 --> 00:23:41,302
Speaker 3: will it rain, won't it rain? And I was like,

509
00:23:41,341 --> 00:23:43,542
Speaker 3: I'm not invested in that like that much in the rain.

510
00:23:44,302 --> 00:23:49,341
Speaker 3: And it was, as we predicted, such an explicit, prolonged

511
00:23:49,901 --> 00:23:52,422
Speaker 3: Victoria Beckham ad that at the end, I went, am

512
00:23:52,422 --> 00:23:55,621
Speaker 3: I more likely to go to Victoriabeckham dot com and

513
00:23:55,661 --> 00:23:57,581
Speaker 3: look at a nice frock? Perhaps?

514
00:23:57,821 --> 00:23:59,901
Speaker 4: I'm sure I wouldn't never aye you with a question

515
00:24:00,022 --> 00:24:02,222
Speaker 4: like do you think that it's going to drive people

516
00:24:02,262 --> 00:24:04,061
Speaker 4: to buy things with your name on them?

517
00:24:04,101 --> 00:24:07,262
Speaker 3: Because when you have created a brand, you want to

518
00:24:07,302 --> 00:24:10,141
Speaker 3: get your brand story out there. It's really cool to

519
00:24:10,222 --> 00:24:13,381
Speaker 3: kind of being front and center of people's purchasing decisions.

520
00:24:13,422 --> 00:24:15,381
Speaker 3: And this was just a brand story.

521
00:24:15,182 --> 00:24:17,742
Speaker 2: Except a brand's story was kind of and nobody bought

522
00:24:17,782 --> 00:24:19,421
Speaker 2: my clothes and I nearly went bust.

523
00:24:19,581 --> 00:24:21,341
Speaker 3: Oh, I think it was people bought them, but I

524
00:24:21,742 --> 00:24:25,262
Speaker 3: just spilled the money mentally the money on my plants.

525
00:24:25,821 --> 00:24:28,741
Speaker 3: I found it profoundly disappointing and it was full of

526
00:24:28,982 --> 00:24:33,222
Speaker 3: platitudes and cliches. And there was a point at which

527
00:24:33,262 --> 00:24:36,262
Speaker 3: she said this sentence that was like, I'm a control freak,

528
00:24:36,422 --> 00:24:38,661
Speaker 3: so when things aren't in my control, it's hard. And

529
00:24:38,702 --> 00:24:41,341
Speaker 3: I was like, I'm out I'm out, this is just

530
00:24:41,422 --> 00:24:42,022
Speaker 3: so boring.

531
00:24:42,302 --> 00:24:44,701
Speaker 2: I know that I'm the lone Vicky b defender in

532
00:24:44,742 --> 00:24:47,262
Speaker 2: this in this room. Because you're right, it wasn't great.

533
00:24:47,621 --> 00:24:51,061
Speaker 2: Particularly wasn't great in comparison to the Mecan documentary, which

534
00:24:51,222 --> 00:24:54,061
Speaker 2: was great in every way. It wasn't as deep. It

535
00:24:54,061 --> 00:24:56,742
Speaker 2: didn't interview that like he had every teammate he's ever had,

536
00:24:56,742 --> 00:24:58,621
Speaker 2: and we didn't even get the Spice girls like it.

537
00:24:59,502 --> 00:25:01,701
Speaker 2: It was very shallow in lots of ways. But in

538
00:25:01,742 --> 00:25:04,741
Speaker 2: a way, I think that's almost like appropriate for the

539
00:25:04,742 --> 00:25:08,021
Speaker 2: different ways we treat male and female celebrities, because this

540
00:25:08,182 --> 00:25:10,341
Speaker 2: was so buttoned up and so like, what will people say,

541
00:25:10,381 --> 00:25:12,302
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I've got it, Like, I know, I've

542
00:25:12,302 --> 00:25:14,061
Speaker 2: got to be authentic, but I don't want to be authentic.

543
00:25:14,061 --> 00:25:15,821
Speaker 2: I don't want to say anything that might be controversial,

544
00:25:15,821 --> 00:25:18,341
Speaker 2: so I'll just drop them like a tiny thing. Whereas

545
00:25:18,422 --> 00:25:20,901
Speaker 2: David was kind of like, well, you know, let it

546
00:25:20,942 --> 00:25:23,782
Speaker 2: all hang out. I think it's very gendered.

547
00:25:24,581 --> 00:25:26,902
Speaker 4: If this discussion has brought up any issues for you,

548
00:25:26,982 --> 00:25:29,061
Speaker 4: we will have some resources in the show notes.

549
00:25:30,702 --> 00:25:33,701
Speaker 3: In a moment, would you choose a female only section

550
00:25:33,942 --> 00:25:41,061
Speaker 3: on a flight if you could, we discuss Julia Morris,

551
00:25:41,101 --> 00:25:44,702
Speaker 3: who's a comedian and a TV host, best known for

552
00:25:44,821 --> 00:25:48,022
Speaker 3: hosting I'm a Celebrity, Get Me out of Here National Treasure. Yes,

553
00:25:48,302 --> 00:25:52,821
Speaker 3: she has a proposal. Over the weekend she posted this idea,

554
00:25:52,942 --> 00:25:55,741
Speaker 3: which is she thinks planes should have a women's only

555
00:25:55,901 --> 00:26:00,022
Speaker 3: section with women's only bathrooms. So here is exactly what

556
00:26:00,061 --> 00:26:03,941
Speaker 3: she posted. She wrote, calling all airlines please consider a

557
00:26:03,982 --> 00:26:07,181
Speaker 3: women only section on your planes. We don't feel safe

558
00:26:07,222 --> 00:26:09,502
Speaker 3: with men telling us to crawl over them on flight

559
00:26:09,942 --> 00:26:13,141
Speaker 3: while they ignore women's personal space. And I won't even

560
00:26:13,222 --> 00:26:15,901
Speaker 3: mention the state of the toilets. Not all men, but

561
00:26:15,942 --> 00:26:18,661
Speaker 3: why so many give us the back section or at

562
00:26:18,742 --> 00:26:22,501
Speaker 3: least a few rows of female only seats stand up

563
00:26:22,542 --> 00:26:26,861
Speaker 3: to creeps on flights. Women are over it and the

564
00:26:26,901 --> 00:26:30,341
Speaker 3: post attracted lots of likes, but more than sixteen hundred comments.

565
00:26:30,381 --> 00:26:34,221
Speaker 2: You think this was like a serious request to the airlights.

566
00:26:33,702 --> 00:26:34,581
Speaker 1: I actually do.

567
00:26:34,942 --> 00:26:37,821
Speaker 3: And it appears that maybe she had recently been on

568
00:26:37,861 --> 00:26:40,902
Speaker 3: a flight and had a particularly bad experience. But all

569
00:26:40,942 --> 00:26:43,422
Speaker 3: of these comments came floating in. I was really interested

570
00:26:43,422 --> 00:26:47,262
Speaker 3: to see what the consensus was, and generally it was

571
00:26:47,302 --> 00:26:52,462
Speaker 3: women sharing stories of being assaulted on flights, particularly by

572
00:26:52,581 --> 00:26:57,502
Speaker 3: men who were inebriated, men making women crawl over them

573
00:26:57,661 --> 00:26:59,422
Speaker 3: and then kind of making them feel like they didn't

574
00:26:59,462 --> 00:27:03,221
Speaker 3: have their own personal space. And also women being in

575
00:27:03,222 --> 00:27:04,781
Speaker 3: a position where they had to breastfeed and they were

576
00:27:04,982 --> 00:27:09,022
Speaker 3: sandwiched between two men and they felt uncomfortable. I remember

577
00:27:09,061 --> 00:27:12,662
Speaker 3: last year talked about an Indian low cost carrier named

578
00:27:12,702 --> 00:27:18,102
Speaker 3: Indigo who had just offered a service where female passengers

579
00:27:18,141 --> 00:27:20,701
Speaker 3: could select a seat where they could sit next to

580
00:27:20,742 --> 00:27:23,022
Speaker 3: another female passenger, so you could see it when you

581
00:27:23,141 --> 00:27:24,901
Speaker 3: checked in and you chose your seat, you could go,

582
00:27:24,942 --> 00:27:26,701
Speaker 3: I want to sit next to a woman, And that

583
00:27:26,901 --> 00:27:31,901
Speaker 3: was about comfort and safety of women on flights. I

584
00:27:31,942 --> 00:27:34,422
Speaker 3: am so interested to hear what you think. I've gone

585
00:27:34,462 --> 00:27:36,941
Speaker 3: back and forth on it, Amelia, what do you reckon?

586
00:27:37,381 --> 00:27:39,502
Speaker 1: Yeah? I think it's a really interesting proposal.

587
00:27:39,542 --> 00:27:42,021
Speaker 4: And I think that women's only spaces kind of go

588
00:27:42,141 --> 00:27:45,022
Speaker 4: in and out of fashion, depending on maybe the political

589
00:27:45,022 --> 00:27:48,622
Speaker 4: climate at the times. Because back in the nineties, when

590
00:27:48,661 --> 00:27:51,742
Speaker 4: I was about to go to university, my mom told

591
00:27:51,782 --> 00:27:54,262
Speaker 4: me that when she was at Sydney University in the sixties,

592
00:27:54,621 --> 00:27:58,182
Speaker 4: they had a women's only room and she would spend

593
00:27:58,222 --> 00:28:01,902
Speaker 4: a lot of time there. And my reaction in the nineties,

594
00:28:01,942 --> 00:28:05,941
Speaker 4: growing up amidst lad culture, amidst Victoria Beckham being weighed

595
00:28:05,942 --> 00:28:10,502
Speaker 4: on national television. Was immediately like, that's uncle, Why would

596
00:28:10,581 --> 00:28:12,782
Speaker 4: I strike out on my own and go where only

597
00:28:12,821 --> 00:28:15,221
Speaker 4: the women are? Because back then it was seen as

598
00:28:15,381 --> 00:28:18,141
Speaker 4: you had to be able to hang with men, and

599
00:28:18,182 --> 00:28:19,861
Speaker 4: you had to be able to be comfortable in the

600
00:28:19,901 --> 00:28:22,861
Speaker 4: company of men and not talk too loudly about being

601
00:28:22,861 --> 00:28:25,661
Speaker 4: a feminist or wanting to be with other women. And

602
00:28:25,742 --> 00:28:27,981
Speaker 4: also the nineties, I remember that I watched a travel

603
00:28:27,982 --> 00:28:30,742
Speaker 4: show about Tokyo. It was a Clive James travel show,

604
00:28:30,782 --> 00:28:33,061
Speaker 4: and he talked about how on the Tokyo subway there

605
00:28:33,061 --> 00:28:36,341
Speaker 4: are women only cars on the subway. And this blew

606
00:28:36,381 --> 00:28:39,462
Speaker 4: my nineties mind because back then again there just wasn't

607
00:28:39,462 --> 00:28:42,542
Speaker 4: this acceptance of the need for women only spaces for

608
00:28:42,582 --> 00:28:44,261
Speaker 4: all these sort of big cultural reasons.

609
00:28:44,302 --> 00:28:46,822
Speaker 2: Are are there still women's only cars on the subway?

610
00:28:46,822 --> 00:28:47,982
Speaker 2: And there are? Yes.

611
00:28:48,462 --> 00:28:51,102
Speaker 4: Another harbinger of the times was you know the Kuldjie

612
00:28:51,142 --> 00:28:53,862
Speaker 4: Ladies bards there in Sydney, and they're very beautiful and

613
00:28:53,902 --> 00:28:56,262
Speaker 4: they've been a sanctuary for women for over a century.

614
00:28:56,661 --> 00:28:59,822
Speaker 4: In nineteen ninety five, a man launched proceedings of the

615
00:28:59,822 --> 00:29:02,742
Speaker 4: New South Wales Anti Discrimination Board, saying that he wanted

616
00:29:02,742 --> 00:29:04,502
Speaker 4: to be able to go to the ladies' bards. Now

617
00:29:04,502 --> 00:29:07,142
Speaker 4: he lost the case, but it's a sign of how

618
00:29:07,222 --> 00:29:09,742
Speaker 4: there really was this backlash then against this same fear

619
00:29:09,782 --> 00:29:11,661
Speaker 4: of women being able to have their own space.

620
00:29:12,142 --> 00:29:12,941
Speaker 1: And now I think.

621
00:29:12,822 --> 00:29:15,022
Speaker 4: We've come one to eighty and now I think we're

622
00:29:15,062 --> 00:29:18,102
Speaker 4: really wanting to create spaces for women. Women are two

623
00:29:18,142 --> 00:29:21,221
Speaker 4: thirds of global travelers. There's been a rise in women's

624
00:29:21,222 --> 00:29:23,382
Speaker 4: only trips and holidays and things like that, and I

625
00:29:23,382 --> 00:29:26,582
Speaker 4: think we're more aware now of like the psychological safety

626
00:29:26,622 --> 00:29:28,822
Speaker 4: that can be brought about by being around other women.

627
00:29:29,222 --> 00:29:35,142
Speaker 2: Yes, cosign all that, but is there also a point

628
00:29:35,222 --> 00:29:37,262
Speaker 2: here at which and I want to preface this that

629
00:29:37,422 --> 00:29:41,102
Speaker 2: obviously the story's there about being groped or you know,

630
00:29:41,982 --> 00:29:44,462
Speaker 2: made to feel unsafe in a physical way because some

631
00:29:44,902 --> 00:29:48,022
Speaker 2: creepy guy basically is sitting next to you. Is there

632
00:29:48,022 --> 00:29:50,902
Speaker 2: also a place here where we've just become completely intolerant

633
00:29:51,062 --> 00:29:55,022
Speaker 2: of being around the people who may behave in ways

634
00:29:55,022 --> 00:29:56,982
Speaker 2: that we don't like. Like, you know, we've often talked

635
00:29:57,022 --> 00:29:59,542
Speaker 2: about when we're traveling lots for Mom and mere out

636
00:29:59,542 --> 00:30:02,221
Speaker 2: loud and we're flying all the time. We often complain

637
00:30:02,342 --> 00:30:04,942
Speaker 2: or laugh about like that guy who felt entitled enough

638
00:30:04,982 --> 00:30:09,182
Speaker 2: to snore or spread his legs too wide or talk

639
00:30:09,262 --> 00:30:12,382
Speaker 2: to loudly or whatever. And there is a point at

640
00:30:12,422 --> 00:30:15,102
Speaker 2: which we do just have to all rub along, right.

641
00:30:15,102 --> 00:30:15,982
Speaker 1: We do. But it's funny.

642
00:30:15,982 --> 00:30:18,982
Speaker 4: You should imagine the tour because one of the people

643
00:30:19,022 --> 00:30:21,502
Speaker 4: who works with us on the tour mentioned that she

644
00:30:21,822 --> 00:30:23,862
Speaker 4: was on a plane going to one of the shows

645
00:30:23,942 --> 00:30:27,661
Speaker 4: and a man was looking at hardcore pornography next to her.

646
00:30:27,862 --> 00:30:29,462
Speaker 1: See, that is not exactly okay.

647
00:30:29,502 --> 00:30:32,062
Speaker 2: But you know, I'm not normally the hashtag not all men.

648
00:30:32,102 --> 00:30:34,461
Speaker 2: But I just think I'm generally in favor of a

649
00:30:34,462 --> 00:30:36,701
Speaker 2: co ed world. I think we're all better if we

650
00:30:36,822 --> 00:30:38,942
Speaker 2: learn to figure out how to hang around with each other.

651
00:30:39,342 --> 00:30:42,342
Speaker 2: So I don't really like the idea of gender segregating

652
00:30:42,342 --> 00:30:45,342
Speaker 2: all public spaces. I think that any kind of criminal

653
00:30:45,422 --> 00:30:47,542
Speaker 2: or creepy behavior should be punished. But like if I

654
00:30:47,582 --> 00:30:49,862
Speaker 2: could sit in a woman's only section on a plane,

655
00:30:49,902 --> 00:30:52,262
Speaker 2: I would not. There's no way I would, because you'll

656
00:30:52,302 --> 00:30:55,742
Speaker 2: tell you why. It's where the babies would be. If

657
00:30:55,782 --> 00:30:59,781
Speaker 2: they put a women's only section on a plane, that

658
00:30:59,942 --> 00:31:02,502
Speaker 2: is where all the children would go. And although I

659
00:31:02,542 --> 00:31:04,822
Speaker 2: am very because that's just the way the world works

660
00:31:04,822 --> 00:31:06,982
Speaker 2: and it shouldn't be, but it is. And I am

661
00:31:07,102 --> 00:31:09,421
Speaker 2: very tolerant of babies and toddlers on planes because I've been,

662
00:31:09,702 --> 00:31:11,302
Speaker 2: but I'm not there anymore and I do not want

663
00:31:11,342 --> 00:31:14,102
Speaker 2: to see and so the men would be loving it.

664
00:31:14,262 --> 00:31:16,382
Speaker 2: And also the way that Julia suggested it is that

665
00:31:16,382 --> 00:31:18,382
Speaker 2: the women are at the back. I'm like, no, thanks,

666
00:31:18,422 --> 00:31:20,221
Speaker 2: I want to be at the front as close to

667
00:31:20,262 --> 00:31:21,702
Speaker 2: the front as humanly possible.

668
00:31:21,782 --> 00:31:23,342
Speaker 1: No, but that's for all the businessmen.

669
00:31:24,502 --> 00:31:26,661
Speaker 2: I don't think so, so I you know, I have

670
00:31:26,702 --> 00:31:28,822
Speaker 2: a lot of sympathy for any woman who's experienced that

671
00:31:28,822 --> 00:31:31,062
Speaker 2: creepy behavior. And I did once to do fourteen hours

672
00:31:31,462 --> 00:31:33,982
Speaker 2: on a long haul to England with the first leg

673
00:31:34,222 --> 00:31:38,181
Speaker 2: sitting next to two enormous bodybuilders like they were so

674
00:31:38,462 --> 00:31:41,342
Speaker 2: enormously's bodybuilder guys with these really big muscly thighs, and

675
00:31:41,382 --> 00:31:43,422
Speaker 2: they sat with their leg light and it was not comfy.

676
00:31:43,462 --> 00:31:47,582
Speaker 2: But I don't think I would choose a women's only section.

677
00:31:47,582 --> 00:31:49,421
Speaker 3: Growing up in the nineties. I wonder if that is

678
00:31:49,502 --> 00:31:53,542
Speaker 3: part of why I bristle a little bit at gender segregation,

679
00:31:54,182 --> 00:31:58,461
Speaker 3: and maybe I feel as though it's also why do

680
00:31:58,542 --> 00:32:04,942
Speaker 3: we need a women's space to allow for men's criminal behavior?

681
00:32:05,422 --> 00:32:08,022
Speaker 3: Behavior Like if I have sat on a long haul

682
00:32:08,062 --> 00:32:11,462
Speaker 3: flight next to a man who did very intimate things

683
00:32:11,462 --> 00:32:15,501
Speaker 3: to himself on that fly, and I was stuck by

684
00:32:15,542 --> 00:32:18,382
Speaker 3: the window, so my only option was to have crawled

685
00:32:18,422 --> 00:32:21,422
Speaker 3: over him to what And it's the same with our

686
00:32:21,502 --> 00:32:23,902
Speaker 3: member of our team who saw what was on his phone.

687
00:32:24,022 --> 00:32:25,662
Speaker 3: You often sit there and you go.

688
00:32:25,462 --> 00:32:26,782
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know if this is a crime.

689
00:32:27,022 --> 00:32:28,902
Speaker 3: I just don't like it. Maybe it was I was

690
00:32:28,942 --> 00:32:30,862
Speaker 3: a young girl at the time. What am I going

691
00:32:30,942 --> 00:32:33,822
Speaker 3: to do? I'm quite literally trapped.

692
00:32:34,142 --> 00:32:36,862
Speaker 2: And also you were also thinking if a man is

693
00:32:36,902 --> 00:32:40,142
Speaker 2: prepared to either watch hardcore porn in a public space

694
00:32:40,342 --> 00:32:44,902
Speaker 2: or be with him, yeah, in a public space, then

695
00:32:44,942 --> 00:32:48,262
Speaker 2: this is not necessarily a man I'm going to confront, yes, and.

696
00:32:48,182 --> 00:32:50,461
Speaker 3: A lot of I found a Reddit thread discussing this,

697
00:32:50,661 --> 00:32:53,421
Speaker 3: and it was someone asking cabin crew, and a lot

698
00:32:53,502 --> 00:32:56,382
Speaker 3: of the cabin crew said, for the amount of flights

699
00:32:56,382 --> 00:32:57,982
Speaker 3: we do, we do not get a lot of reports.

700
00:32:58,022 --> 00:33:01,022
Speaker 3: And I thought that means very little because I didn't

701
00:33:01,022 --> 00:33:02,902
Speaker 3: say anything, our team member didn't say anything. Of course,

702
00:33:02,902 --> 00:33:05,941
Speaker 3: they didn't like what you just often don't you just

703
00:33:06,022 --> 00:33:08,542
Speaker 3: put up with it. And there's stories in this of

704
00:33:08,582 --> 00:33:10,941
Speaker 3: women falling asleep and they've woken up and the person

705
00:33:10,982 --> 00:33:12,822
Speaker 3: next to them is being creepy and it's awful. With

706
00:33:12,942 --> 00:33:16,502
Speaker 3: all of that said, I think that if that occurs,

707
00:33:16,542 --> 00:33:19,822
Speaker 3: I would prefer to live in a world where those

708
00:33:20,382 --> 00:33:24,782
Speaker 3: men are punished and banned from airlines than a world

709
00:33:24,902 --> 00:33:30,822
Speaker 3: in which we exist in different parts of the plane

710
00:33:31,462 --> 00:33:34,741
Speaker 3: because we do not trust men to sit beside a

711
00:33:34,742 --> 00:33:35,862
Speaker 3: woman for a long period of time.

712
00:33:35,902 --> 00:33:38,022
Speaker 2: You know where my hypocrisy comes here. Actually, you know

713
00:33:38,102 --> 00:33:40,102
Speaker 2: I'm saying, Oh, I wouldn't. If I was booking a

714
00:33:40,102 --> 00:33:42,742
Speaker 2: flight for my fifteen year old daughter and I had

715
00:33:42,742 --> 00:33:45,262
Speaker 2: that option, I probably would take the option of having

716
00:33:45,302 --> 00:33:47,461
Speaker 2: her sit next to a woman. So there is hypocrisy

717
00:33:47,462 --> 00:33:48,221
Speaker 2: in what I'm saying.

718
00:33:48,382 --> 00:33:51,462
Speaker 4: I don't think it's about crime, because Jesse, I take

719
00:33:51,502 --> 00:33:54,182
Speaker 4: your point like, if someone is doing a criminal activity,

720
00:33:54,182 --> 00:33:57,462
Speaker 4: they should be arrested for it. I think it's about comfort,

721
00:33:57,502 --> 00:33:59,982
Speaker 4: and I think it's okay to want a more comforting

722
00:34:00,302 --> 00:34:04,981
Speaker 4: experience in the very dehumanizing experience which is modern airline travel.

723
00:34:05,062 --> 00:34:06,662
Speaker 4: Let me give you an example from my own life,

724
00:34:06,661 --> 00:34:08,622
Speaker 4: which is one time I was on the New York Subway,

725
00:34:08,661 --> 00:34:12,502
Speaker 4: which most definitely does not have women only cars, and

726
00:34:12,702 --> 00:34:15,062
Speaker 4: I was very comfortable on the subway and it was

727
00:34:15,062 --> 00:34:17,502
Speaker 4: sort of my happy place. Actually, I love public transport

728
00:34:17,542 --> 00:34:19,462
Speaker 4: because I feel like it's very anonymous and you can

729
00:34:19,582 --> 00:34:21,982
Speaker 4: zone out and think about your life, and people an

730
00:34:21,982 --> 00:34:25,102
Speaker 4: opportunity to read. People watch, well, people watch, interesting choice

731
00:34:25,142 --> 00:34:28,462
Speaker 4: of phrase. So I was sitting there, probably reading my

732
00:34:28,542 --> 00:34:30,781
Speaker 4: phone or a magazine because it's a few years ago.

733
00:34:31,422 --> 00:34:33,582
Speaker 1: And just as I got up to get off the.

734
00:34:33,582 --> 00:34:36,502
Speaker 4: Train, a man came up to me and he said,

735
00:34:36,781 --> 00:34:39,181
Speaker 4: you should know that that man over there has been

736
00:34:39,302 --> 00:34:43,221
Speaker 4: drawing your legs. Oh no, but it wasn't in a

737
00:34:43,261 --> 00:34:43,622
Speaker 4: good way.

738
00:34:43,701 --> 00:34:45,221
Speaker 2: No, No, I didn't mean they are in a good

739
00:34:45,261 --> 00:34:51,982
Speaker 2: ways an artists like like more like.

740
00:34:52,781 --> 00:34:55,422
Speaker 4: I was flaunching my pins, I was wearying like my

741
00:34:55,582 --> 00:34:59,982
Speaker 4: office attire. It wasn't anything risky and see the drawing.

742
00:35:00,102 --> 00:35:03,661
Speaker 4: I didn't see the drawing, but I was really unsettled. Now,

743
00:35:03,701 --> 00:35:07,661
Speaker 4: it is definitely not illegal to draw someone's legs. But

744
00:35:07,862 --> 00:35:10,502
Speaker 4: would I have preferred that that was not happening while

745
00:35:10,502 --> 00:35:13,221
Speaker 4: I was in my happy place? Yes, yes they would have.

746
00:35:13,342 --> 00:35:15,261
Speaker 3: And that's the thing is that it might be one

747
00:35:15,302 --> 00:35:18,302
Speaker 3: incident in a thousand, but it changes the way you travel.

748
00:35:18,542 --> 00:35:19,821
Speaker 3: It changes the way and the.

749
00:35:19,781 --> 00:35:21,382
Speaker 4: Next time I got on the subway and I was

750
00:35:21,422 --> 00:35:23,822
Speaker 4: wearing a dress, I was just a little bit conscious

751
00:35:23,862 --> 00:35:26,342
Speaker 4: of picking a seat that was maybe slightly less visible

752
00:35:26,382 --> 00:35:27,502
Speaker 4: to the rest of the train car.

753
00:35:27,822 --> 00:35:30,102
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I suppose it's a good point, right, because

754
00:35:30,102 --> 00:35:34,422
Speaker 3: there's criminal activity, But then there is just the general

755
00:35:34,781 --> 00:35:39,261
Speaker 3: degradation of airline travel. So for example, the crawling over

756
00:35:39,302 --> 00:35:41,982
Speaker 3: someone and having them not move. I was trying to

757
00:35:41,982 --> 00:35:44,301
Speaker 3: be really honest with myself and I went, I've had

758
00:35:44,382 --> 00:35:47,422
Speaker 3: as many women not get up from their seat and

759
00:35:47,502 --> 00:35:49,222
Speaker 3: have me crawl over them to get to the aisle

760
00:35:49,302 --> 00:35:53,022
Speaker 3: as I have men. Do I think men leave dirtier bathrooms. No,

761
00:35:53,382 --> 00:35:56,181
Speaker 3: I think that women leave real dirty bathrooms as well.

762
00:35:56,261 --> 00:35:57,942
Speaker 2: It is a bit of a stereotype that if the

763
00:35:57,982 --> 00:35:59,821
Speaker 2: plane was full of women, it would be so neat

764
00:35:59,822 --> 00:36:00,342
Speaker 2: and tidy.

765
00:36:00,701 --> 00:36:02,622
Speaker 3: I think it's one thing, and I always think that

766
00:36:02,661 --> 00:36:07,062
Speaker 3: we should extend a particular like a sensitivity to anyone

767
00:36:07,142 --> 00:36:11,422
Speaker 3: who's had seriously traumatizing experience. It's where you go. I

768
00:36:11,462 --> 00:36:13,382
Speaker 3: don't like the idea that then you sit next to

769
00:36:13,701 --> 00:36:16,221
Speaker 3: two men and you feel threatened or unsafe for fourteen hours.

770
00:36:16,261 --> 00:36:20,181
Speaker 3: I don't like that, but generally speaking, I just go oh.

771
00:36:20,542 --> 00:36:23,301
Speaker 3: I was looking around a cafe today and I was like, well,

772
00:36:23,462 --> 00:36:25,462
Speaker 3: I like the mixed I like the co ed of

773
00:36:25,462 --> 00:36:27,942
Speaker 3: it all, and I think that having a standard for

774
00:36:28,022 --> 00:36:31,701
Speaker 3: how we all behave like human beings should just be

775
00:36:32,181 --> 00:36:32,902
Speaker 3: widely accepted.

776
00:36:33,022 --> 00:36:35,301
Speaker 2: I want to hear from out louders. I don't necessarily

777
00:36:35,342 --> 00:36:37,102
Speaker 2: want to hear all the plane horror stories because it

778
00:36:37,142 --> 00:36:39,502
Speaker 2: might definitely maybe change my mind, but I want to

779
00:36:39,542 --> 00:36:41,781
Speaker 2: know what you think. Do you think we should have

780
00:36:41,822 --> 00:36:46,502
Speaker 2: women's only areas on aeroplanes? I have excellent news for

781
00:36:46,582 --> 00:36:52,142
Speaker 2: type bees and lazy girls. Oh hello, that's me. No,

782
00:36:52,462 --> 00:36:55,462
Speaker 2: you do not have to make your bed first thing

783
00:36:55,582 --> 00:36:59,022
Speaker 2: in the morning to have a clear, productive day. In fact,

784
00:36:59,102 --> 00:37:01,622
Speaker 2: you shouldn't, Jesse, isn't this one of the Jordan Peterson's

785
00:37:01,622 --> 00:37:03,221
Speaker 2: twelve for all belove you men to get out of

786
00:37:03,261 --> 00:37:04,422
Speaker 2: bed and immediately make it.

787
00:37:04,582 --> 00:37:06,821
Speaker 3: Yeah, so read any self help. I'm pretty sure it's

788
00:37:06,822 --> 00:37:11,142
Speaker 3: also Atomic habits. James Clear, it's any person who's told

789
00:37:11,142 --> 00:37:13,301
Speaker 3: you how to live your life. Chapter one is make

790
00:37:13,342 --> 00:37:13,661
Speaker 3: your bed?

791
00:37:13,741 --> 00:37:13,981
Speaker 2: Holy?

792
00:37:14,181 --> 00:37:16,982
Speaker 1: Do you have a Google news for this? Topic, do

793
00:37:17,142 --> 00:37:18,261
Speaker 1: not make bed.

794
00:37:19,622 --> 00:37:24,181
Speaker 2: Because I read so excited about you know why? Well,

795
00:37:24,221 --> 00:37:26,422
Speaker 2: I'll tell you what the truth what I'm talking about,

796
00:37:26,422 --> 00:37:28,382
Speaker 2: and then I'll tell you why make you excited?

797
00:37:28,542 --> 00:37:29,502
Speaker 5: Right is?

798
00:37:29,542 --> 00:37:32,301
Speaker 2: I read a piece in the UK Telegraph this week

799
00:37:32,302 --> 00:37:33,941
Speaker 2: that was kind of like it was one of those

800
00:37:33,982 --> 00:37:38,182
Speaker 2: twelve domestic myths that we must dispel right and London

801
00:37:38,221 --> 00:37:43,181
Speaker 2: based GP dr amos Ockencoa says that you shouldn't because

802
00:37:43,582 --> 00:37:46,221
Speaker 2: when you sleep, you build up moisture and sweat. And

803
00:37:46,302 --> 00:37:49,902
Speaker 2: this is even in London, right stop form there. This warm,

804
00:37:50,022 --> 00:37:54,062
Speaker 2: humid environment is the perfect breeding ground for microscopic dust mite.

805
00:37:54,102 --> 00:37:58,341
Speaker 2: I've always said this, yea. And so Lindsey Crombie, who's

806
00:37:58,342 --> 00:38:01,142
Speaker 2: a home expert and author of the Fifteen Minute Clean, says,

807
00:38:01,181 --> 00:38:04,821
Speaker 2: your best bet is to leave the bed unmade for

808
00:38:04,862 --> 00:38:08,701
Speaker 2: an hour or two or ten or ten so that

809
00:38:08,781 --> 00:38:12,102
Speaker 2: it can air out naturally. You can obviously open a

810
00:38:12,102 --> 00:38:14,301
Speaker 2: window or whatever fresh air. But the point that what

811
00:38:14,422 --> 00:38:17,822
Speaker 2: I seized onto with delight was the idea of leaving

812
00:38:17,862 --> 00:38:21,261
Speaker 2: your bed all mussied up and open like an open bed.

813
00:38:21,422 --> 00:38:22,461
Speaker 3: The germs need to fly away.

814
00:38:22,502 --> 00:38:24,661
Speaker 1: Everyone knows that need to.

815
00:38:24,741 --> 00:38:28,142
Speaker 2: Fly away as they clean. Air needs to come in

816
00:38:28,261 --> 00:38:30,062
Speaker 2: and do. It's wishy washy, wishy washy.

817
00:38:30,502 --> 00:38:35,142
Speaker 4: Clear, They're not flying away, they're dehydrating and dying.

818
00:38:35,462 --> 00:38:37,142
Speaker 1: WoT someone think about the dust.

819
00:38:37,261 --> 00:38:38,261
Speaker 2: And I don't have to fight.

820
00:38:38,382 --> 00:38:40,102
Speaker 3: You don't even have to clean your sheets, is what

821
00:38:40,142 --> 00:38:40,422
Speaker 3: I hear.

822
00:38:40,582 --> 00:38:42,861
Speaker 4: Let's just be clear that by not making your bed,

823
00:38:43,142 --> 00:38:45,502
Speaker 4: you are leaving these dust whites to die.

824
00:38:46,302 --> 00:38:50,381
Speaker 2: I can live with that. I can't extend empathy to dust.

825
00:38:50,622 --> 00:38:53,062
Speaker 2: I mean, what even faces the dust mites have do

826
00:38:53,142 --> 00:38:56,501
Speaker 2: they make little sad flash leave them to shrivel in it? Anyway,

827
00:38:56,942 --> 00:38:59,542
Speaker 2: Although I do make my bed because I kind of

828
00:38:59,542 --> 00:39:01,862
Speaker 2: have to, because I've read all these things, I never

829
00:39:01,942 --> 00:39:04,622
Speaker 2: ever did. Obviously wasn't brought up to right, I've just

830
00:39:04,701 --> 00:39:06,542
Speaker 2: been brought up with with a douna as we call

831
00:39:06,582 --> 00:39:09,142
Speaker 2: them in Australia, a douvet as we call them in England.

832
00:39:09,902 --> 00:39:11,582
Speaker 2: I just used to get out of bed and whatever

833
00:39:11,622 --> 00:39:13,341
Speaker 2: state it was in, I just walk away from it.

834
00:39:13,422 --> 00:39:15,661
Speaker 2: And then I had a boyfriend, right. I had a

835
00:39:15,661 --> 00:39:18,582
Speaker 2: boyfriend in my late twenties who was what we may

836
00:39:18,661 --> 00:39:22,221
Speaker 2: call a clean freak, but maybe he was just ornmic

837
00:39:23,142 --> 00:39:26,022
Speaker 2: and he was obsessed with it. He was also obsessed

838
00:39:26,022 --> 00:39:27,701
Speaker 2: with when he took off his clothes when he got home,

839
00:39:27,741 --> 00:39:30,142
Speaker 2: no matter what state of excitement you were in, he

840
00:39:30,181 --> 00:39:33,861
Speaker 2: had to fold them up and put them. But he

841
00:39:33,942 --> 00:39:36,661
Speaker 2: was a lovely guy, but he was obsessed with making

842
00:39:36,661 --> 00:39:38,741
Speaker 2: the bed. And he said to me, you know, your

843
00:39:38,781 --> 00:39:40,661
Speaker 2: mind is messy if your bed is messy. All that

844
00:39:40,701 --> 00:39:42,661
Speaker 2: stuff that you read, and I took it in so

845
00:39:42,701 --> 00:39:44,461
Speaker 2: I do make my bed. But when I read this,

846
00:39:44,982 --> 00:39:45,821
Speaker 2: little twenty eight.

847
00:39:45,741 --> 00:39:50,461
Speaker 3: Year old me was like, yeah, that do you think

848
00:39:50,502 --> 00:39:54,022
Speaker 3: making the bed is the patriarchy? Because I also never

849
00:39:54,062 --> 00:39:56,822
Speaker 3: made my bed. It's an instinct. It's in my DNA.

850
00:39:57,142 --> 00:39:57,782
Speaker 3: I just don't.

851
00:39:57,902 --> 00:40:00,462
Speaker 4: And is that out of concern for reducing the humidity

852
00:40:00,502 --> 00:40:01,982
Speaker 4: in the room and leaving the dust work?

853
00:40:02,062 --> 00:40:04,582
Speaker 3: Yes, letting them fly away. It's always been critical to

854
00:40:04,622 --> 00:40:06,942
Speaker 3: my understanding of my own I don't have we do.

855
00:40:06,982 --> 00:40:11,341
Speaker 2: We need to dispel this myth, very concerned about the

856
00:40:11,382 --> 00:40:12,741
Speaker 2: fact basically.

857
00:40:12,701 --> 00:40:15,422
Speaker 4: You were thinking of my little butterflies leaving your bed.

858
00:40:15,542 --> 00:40:16,742
Speaker 1: That's not what's happening.

859
00:40:17,422 --> 00:40:21,301
Speaker 3: I like that imagery. And then I met an absolute

860
00:40:21,822 --> 00:40:25,821
Speaker 3: make your bed guy. And the oppression of making your

861
00:40:25,862 --> 00:40:28,301
Speaker 3: bed is that the last person out of bed must

862
00:40:28,382 --> 00:40:30,421
Speaker 3: make it. And I happen to be about every single day,

863
00:40:31,022 --> 00:40:33,462
Speaker 3: so the bed has to get made. I have to

864
00:40:33,462 --> 00:40:35,982
Speaker 3: do it. I resent it, and when he's away or something,

865
00:40:35,982 --> 00:40:37,822
Speaker 3: I don't make the bed, and guess what, my life's

866
00:40:37,822 --> 00:40:40,462
Speaker 3: exactly the same copaganda, but it actually doesn't make my

867
00:40:40,502 --> 00:40:42,781
Speaker 3: life better. Don't make the bed. Do you enjoy making

868
00:40:42,822 --> 00:40:43,582
Speaker 3: your bed, Amelia?

869
00:40:43,781 --> 00:40:45,622
Speaker 1: I do. I love making my bed.

870
00:40:45,661 --> 00:40:46,942
Speaker 2: Are you a many cushions person?

871
00:40:47,181 --> 00:40:50,662
Speaker 4: Yes, but you know, if you're in a heterosexual relationship

872
00:40:50,701 --> 00:40:53,941
Speaker 4: with a man, sometimes the pillows you have to minimize them.

873
00:40:54,181 --> 00:40:56,741
Speaker 1: I find the anger men not all they do.

874
00:40:57,221 --> 00:40:59,422
Speaker 3: Yes, women, but it's also like you have to explain

875
00:40:59,462 --> 00:41:01,022
Speaker 3: the pillows, and it just gets to the point where

876
00:41:01,022 --> 00:41:01,341
Speaker 3: it's like.

877
00:41:01,302 --> 00:41:02,661
Speaker 2: The women's area of the play.

878
00:41:03,902 --> 00:41:07,942
Speaker 4: Oh my god, that's actually a big problem.

879
00:41:08,181 --> 00:41:10,661
Speaker 2: After the break, Princess Kate has just told us all

880
00:41:10,701 --> 00:41:13,542
Speaker 2: off about using our phones around the kids, and we're

881
00:41:13,622 --> 00:41:16,221
Speaker 2: unpacking where the mobile phones are soon going.

882
00:41:16,181 --> 00:41:19,942
Speaker 3: To be the new smoking one unlimited out loud access.

883
00:41:20,181 --> 00:41:24,341
Speaker 3: We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mum

884
00:41:24,342 --> 00:41:27,342
Speaker 3: and Maya subscribers. Follow the link in the show notes

885
00:41:27,382 --> 00:41:29,822
Speaker 3: to get us in your ears five days a week,

886
00:41:29,982 --> 00:41:32,261
Speaker 3: and a huge thank you to all our current.

887
00:41:32,062 --> 00:41:40,142
Speaker 2: Subscribers, Friends, I was seduced by a headline today on

888
00:41:40,181 --> 00:41:43,381
Speaker 2: the Internet. Earlier on I was seduced by some bad preparatives.

889
00:41:44,542 --> 00:41:47,822
Speaker 2: Then I was seduced by a headline Kate Middleton explains

890
00:41:47,822 --> 00:41:50,661
Speaker 2: a house rule, no phones for the kids. Now, you

891
00:41:50,701 --> 00:41:53,342
Speaker 2: know me, any excuse to peer through the palace windows?

892
00:41:53,661 --> 00:41:56,422
Speaker 2: I am in, I am there binoculars on.

893
00:41:56,582 --> 00:42:00,982
Speaker 3: Can I also just flag her eldest child is twelve?

894
00:42:01,181 --> 00:42:03,422
Speaker 3: And I just think every parent with a child older

895
00:42:03,462 --> 00:42:06,222
Speaker 3: than twelve is going, yeah, yeah, yeah, you got to twelve.

896
00:42:06,261 --> 00:42:09,181
Speaker 3: You wait, just you wait, Kate.

897
00:42:09,102 --> 00:42:11,221
Speaker 2: What happen when you click on that headline as you

898
00:42:11,261 --> 00:42:14,221
Speaker 2: go to an essay like a whole essay right called

899
00:42:14,302 --> 00:42:17,261
Speaker 2: the Power of Human Connection in a Distracted World, which

900
00:42:17,261 --> 00:42:19,821
Speaker 2: sounds very high for Luton. It is written by Her

901
00:42:19,942 --> 00:42:22,862
Speaker 2: Royal Highness, the Princess of Wells, in collaboration with Professor

902
00:42:23,102 --> 00:42:26,221
Speaker 2: Robert Waldinger. And it's all about, and this is not

903
00:42:26,382 --> 00:42:28,741
Speaker 2: news to anyone who lives in the world, the fact

904
00:42:28,781 --> 00:42:31,341
Speaker 2: that phones are screwing our attention and that when it

905
00:42:31,382 --> 00:42:34,262
Speaker 2: comes to parents and kids and building a connection between

906
00:42:34,462 --> 00:42:38,542
Speaker 2: little kids and their caregivers, phones are breaking that connection

907
00:42:38,741 --> 00:42:42,421
Speaker 2: and making sick unhappy, anxious children. We have been being

908
00:42:42,462 --> 00:42:44,701
Speaker 2: told this everywhere we look for a while. Now, she

909
00:42:44,781 --> 00:42:48,381
Speaker 2: writes in this article, our undivided attention is the most

910
00:42:48,422 --> 00:42:51,741
Speaker 2: precious gift we can give another person, Yet increasingly it's

911
00:42:51,781 --> 00:42:54,542
Speaker 2: the most difficult gift to offer when we check our

912
00:42:54,582 --> 00:42:58,782
Speaker 2: phones during conversations, scroll through social media during family dinners.

913
00:42:58,862 --> 00:43:00,341
Speaker 2: I was like, I don't do that, and I got

914
00:43:00,342 --> 00:43:02,701
Speaker 2: to feel really smug for two minutes. But then or

915
00:43:02,781 --> 00:43:05,701
Speaker 2: respond to emails while playing with our children. Damn it.

916
00:43:06,622 --> 00:43:09,942
Speaker 2: We're not just being distracted. We are withdrawing ding the

917
00:43:09,942 --> 00:43:13,542
Speaker 2: basic form of love that human connection requires. Now that

918
00:43:13,661 --> 00:43:16,941
Speaker 2: bit with drawing the basic form of love that human

919
00:43:16,982 --> 00:43:21,022
Speaker 2: connection requires really hit me in the guts. Do you

920
00:43:21,062 --> 00:43:22,821
Speaker 2: want me to explain why Kate's writing this or or

921
00:43:22,862 --> 00:43:24,341
Speaker 2: do we just want to go straight into how we

922
00:43:24,382 --> 00:43:25,022
Speaker 2: feel about this?

923
00:43:25,142 --> 00:43:26,462
Speaker 3: I think our feelings are more important.

924
00:43:26,502 --> 00:43:29,542
Speaker 2: Okay, feelings first, okay, and I'll explain what the strategy

925
00:43:29,582 --> 00:43:29,901
Speaker 2: is here.

926
00:43:30,342 --> 00:43:34,942
Speaker 3: Fundamentally, is she absolutely correct in every assumption? She is

927
00:43:34,942 --> 00:43:37,822
Speaker 3: one hundred She's totally correct, and she's got the Happiness

928
00:43:37,822 --> 00:43:40,382
Speaker 3: guy explaining why she's correct, and she has all the research,

929
00:43:40,422 --> 00:43:45,822
Speaker 3: and la la la, like we know la la la, facts, facts,

930
00:43:45,942 --> 00:43:49,982
Speaker 3: But how does it feel? Well, I had to examine

931
00:43:49,982 --> 00:43:52,661
Speaker 3: my response because I've got my back up about this,

932
00:43:53,661 --> 00:43:57,501
Speaker 3: and this is something that I care about a lot

933
00:43:57,542 --> 00:43:59,901
Speaker 3: in parenting, Like I think that attention is really I've

934
00:43:59,902 --> 00:44:03,421
Speaker 3: heard Hugh van Kylenberg talk about this anecdote about being

935
00:44:03,422 --> 00:44:06,462
Speaker 3: at the park and his mother turning to him and saying,

936
00:44:06,661 --> 00:44:11,381
Speaker 3: you're missing it, and he realized that he hadn't looked

937
00:44:11,462 --> 00:44:15,022
Speaker 3: up right. And like, what I struggle with a bit

938
00:44:15,142 --> 00:44:20,382
Speaker 3: with these conversations is that it is easier to place

939
00:44:20,462 --> 00:44:23,102
Speaker 3: boundaries around your own screen time and your children's screen

940
00:44:23,102 --> 00:44:29,422
Speaker 3: time when you have nanny's money and energy and things

941
00:44:29,462 --> 00:44:33,462
Speaker 3: that are finite resources that certain privileges allow you. And

942
00:44:33,502 --> 00:44:35,422
Speaker 3: I don't want to go the whole privilege, the whole blot.

943
00:44:36,022 --> 00:44:37,941
Speaker 3: I just don't want this to turn into a thing

944
00:44:38,382 --> 00:44:42,941
Speaker 3: where rich parents finger wag at working parents or at

945
00:44:43,261 --> 00:44:44,382
Speaker 3: parents with less time.

946
00:44:44,582 --> 00:44:46,542
Speaker 2: I just I agree with you one hundred percent. But

947
00:44:46,862 --> 00:44:48,901
Speaker 2: in terms of the whole well, of course it's easy

948
00:44:48,942 --> 00:44:50,942
Speaker 2: for you. Kate is as we've already said, she's not

949
00:44:51,022 --> 00:44:54,622
Speaker 2: exactly Robinson Crusoe in saying this right exactly like she thought.

950
00:44:55,342 --> 00:44:56,982
Speaker 2: So I know what you mean, but this is a

951
00:44:56,982 --> 00:44:58,661
Speaker 2: message we're getting from all directions.

952
00:44:58,661 --> 00:44:59,022
Speaker 4: It is.

953
00:44:59,261 --> 00:45:03,901
Speaker 3: And I'm also a little bit worried about the standard

954
00:45:04,822 --> 00:45:09,142
Speaker 3: of intense engagement and connection and attention that we're expected

955
00:45:09,142 --> 00:45:11,421
Speaker 3: to have with that children twenty four to seven right,

956
00:45:11,982 --> 00:45:14,542
Speaker 3: the parenting verb. I've heard Ezra Klein say the reason

957
00:45:14,542 --> 00:45:16,822
Speaker 3: so many people have two kids is because we cannot

958
00:45:16,862 --> 00:45:18,622
Speaker 3: parent the way that we are being taught to parent.

959
00:45:18,661 --> 00:45:20,661
Speaker 3: With more than two kids, it would be impossible. Like

960
00:45:21,102 --> 00:45:25,181
Speaker 3: there's an intensity which we expect of ourselves that no

961
00:45:25,302 --> 00:45:27,862
Speaker 3: other generation has done. The idea that you would be

962
00:45:27,902 --> 00:45:33,062
Speaker 3: somewhat distracted while looking after your children is something that

963
00:45:33,221 --> 00:45:35,901
Speaker 3: has always happened. I do think that there's something about

964
00:45:35,942 --> 00:45:39,301
Speaker 3: looking at a phone that really zapps connection and all

965
00:45:39,302 --> 00:45:41,661
Speaker 3: of that. However, if I have a day at home

966
00:45:41,701 --> 00:45:44,741
Speaker 3: with Luna and that can be twelve hours of Jesse Luna,

967
00:45:44,822 --> 00:45:47,542
Speaker 3: the idea that I would be staring into her eyes

968
00:45:47,582 --> 00:45:50,741
Speaker 3: and intensely playing with her actually isn't.

969
00:45:50,462 --> 00:45:54,422
Speaker 2: Good for either of us. Like her, I'm not possible.

970
00:45:54,062 --> 00:45:56,462
Speaker 3: No, it's not possible. It's like the independent play. The

971
00:45:56,502 --> 00:45:58,662
Speaker 3: idea that she would toddle off and go and do something,

972
00:45:58,701 --> 00:46:01,781
Speaker 3: and I might pay a bill, or I might check

973
00:46:01,781 --> 00:46:03,861
Speaker 3: if the library is open, or I might text Lucer

974
00:46:03,942 --> 00:46:07,102
Speaker 3: and say, hey, can you pick up some milk? Like Unfortunately,

975
00:46:07,221 --> 00:46:09,022
Speaker 3: that is just the way that the world is, and

976
00:46:09,382 --> 00:46:12,661
Speaker 3: I don't need the narrative in my head. You are

977
00:46:12,781 --> 00:46:16,022
Speaker 3: part of an epidemic of disconnection every time I.

978
00:46:16,022 --> 00:46:18,702
Speaker 2: Do that, Amelia, do you think that if you're worrying

979
00:46:18,741 --> 00:46:22,062
Speaker 2: about this, like as Jesse is and many parents are

980
00:46:22,342 --> 00:46:25,661
Speaker 2: reading Jonathan Haight and listening to Princess Kate, that you're

981
00:46:25,741 --> 00:46:28,821
Speaker 2: probably not doing a shit job. Do you know what

982
00:46:28,822 --> 00:46:29,181
Speaker 2: I mean?

983
00:46:29,302 --> 00:46:30,142
Speaker 1: I do know what you mean.

984
00:46:30,181 --> 00:46:32,501
Speaker 4: And in fact, there have been studies on how much

985
00:46:32,582 --> 00:46:36,102
Speaker 4: time millennial parents are spending with their kids versus parents

986
00:46:36,102 --> 00:46:38,982
Speaker 4: of other generations, not ex don't worry. It's more millennials

987
00:46:39,062 --> 00:46:43,102
Speaker 4: versus boomers, and they've found that millennials are spending way

988
00:46:43,142 --> 00:46:46,461
Speaker 4: more time with their kids per week than boomers ever did.

989
00:46:46,862 --> 00:46:49,741
Speaker 4: So there is evidence that the style of parenting that

990
00:46:49,781 --> 00:46:52,502
Speaker 4: we are being told to embrace is much more intensive

991
00:46:52,582 --> 00:46:54,302
Speaker 4: than what previous generations.

992
00:46:53,862 --> 00:46:55,862
Speaker 1: Have had to do. They were probably off for a

993
00:46:55,902 --> 00:46:58,022
Speaker 1: smoke some of the time the generation.

994
00:46:58,181 --> 00:47:01,222
Speaker 2: And also, you know, just the tropes you think about

995
00:47:01,302 --> 00:47:04,222
Speaker 2: mothers at home with kids forever, so way before phones

996
00:47:04,342 --> 00:47:07,461
Speaker 2: is that she's on the phone to her mom, she's

997
00:47:07,502 --> 00:47:09,902
Speaker 2: talking to the neighbor over the back fence's doing a

998
00:47:09,902 --> 00:47:12,661
Speaker 2: million things like I don't think that it used to be. Oh,

999
00:47:12,701 --> 00:47:16,862
Speaker 2: before phones, parents just paid full attention to their children

1000
00:47:16,862 --> 00:47:19,301
Speaker 2: at all times if they were around them, and that

1001
00:47:19,382 --> 00:47:22,582
Speaker 2: distracted parents are a new thing. I mean, of course,

1002
00:47:23,221 --> 00:47:25,622
Speaker 2: this all goes to say, as you've already pointed out, Jesse,

1003
00:47:25,781 --> 00:47:28,062
Speaker 2: we all know the truth and the facts of what

1004
00:47:28,102 --> 00:47:30,341
Speaker 2: phones have done to our attention. But I think it's

1005
00:47:30,422 --> 00:47:33,982
Speaker 2: like a binary notion that once parents used to pay

1006
00:47:34,022 --> 00:47:35,462
Speaker 2: attention and now they don't.

1007
00:47:35,781 --> 00:47:37,422
Speaker 1: Yes, do you think, Oh? In fact, I think it's

1008
00:47:37,462 --> 00:47:38,142
Speaker 1: a fallacy.

1009
00:47:38,302 --> 00:47:40,142
Speaker 4: I think like there were all sorts of ways that

1010
00:47:40,181 --> 00:47:43,422
Speaker 4: parents were distracted in previous generations that had nothing to

1011
00:47:43,462 --> 00:47:45,301
Speaker 4: do with phones. Look, here's an example from my own

1012
00:47:45,342 --> 00:47:48,022
Speaker 4: life that takes us out of parenting into what phones

1013
00:47:48,062 --> 00:47:51,781
Speaker 4: are doing to our brains in general. I recently subscribed

1014
00:47:51,862 --> 00:47:55,221
Speaker 4: to a print newspaper and I'm getting it every day

1015
00:47:55,221 --> 00:47:58,181
Speaker 4: of the week, and on my way into work here

1016
00:47:58,221 --> 00:48:01,462
Speaker 4: this morning, I read the print newspaper as opposed to

1017
00:48:01,781 --> 00:48:04,062
Speaker 4: droom scrolling on my phone, and I can tell you

1018
00:48:04,102 --> 00:48:06,181
Speaker 4: that the experience that you have, I'm not telling you

1019
00:48:06,221 --> 00:48:09,142
Speaker 4: anything you don't know, but the experiences you've finished reading

1020
00:48:09,181 --> 00:48:11,181
Speaker 4: the newspaper, you fold it up, you put it in

1021
00:48:11,181 --> 00:48:13,181
Speaker 4: the recycling, you feel like, A you know what the

1022
00:48:13,221 --> 00:48:16,661
Speaker 4: news is today, and B you feel considerably calmer. Then

1023
00:48:16,701 --> 00:48:19,381
Speaker 4: if you've been jumping around the internet trying to read

1024
00:48:19,422 --> 00:48:22,302
Speaker 4: the entire Internet in a forty minute commute.

1025
00:48:21,902 --> 00:48:25,502
Speaker 2: And also you've kind of served a broader plate of things,

1026
00:48:25,661 --> 00:48:28,781
Speaker 2: aren't you in a way, because on a homepage you'll

1027
00:48:28,781 --> 00:48:31,502
Speaker 2: click the most salacious headlines and so on, whereas in

1028
00:48:31,502 --> 00:48:33,622
Speaker 2: a newspaper it's kind of everything is there and you've

1029
00:48:33,622 --> 00:48:36,902
Speaker 2: only got that. But back to Kate for a second.

1030
00:48:37,102 --> 00:48:38,821
Speaker 2: So a lot of people obviously have come with the

1031
00:48:38,862 --> 00:48:40,782
Speaker 2: criticism of like, what do you know when your princess

1032
00:48:40,781 --> 00:48:45,582
Speaker 2: in your palace? Which fair, but also this is very

1033
00:48:45,661 --> 00:48:48,982
Speaker 2: much Kate's wheelhouse. So as we all know, royals have

1034
00:48:49,022 --> 00:48:52,181
Speaker 2: to pick some causes and it's tricky. It's kind of

1035
00:48:52,221 --> 00:48:54,781
Speaker 2: like a first lady. Kate's role is very similar to this, right,

1036
00:48:54,781 --> 00:48:57,221
Speaker 2: An American first lady would have to be like, I

1037
00:48:57,302 --> 00:49:00,261
Speaker 2: need some causes so that I look busy. But they

1038
00:49:00,302 --> 00:49:02,982
Speaker 2: can't be controversial. Yeah, so they can't be anything that

1039
00:49:03,062 --> 00:49:05,502
Speaker 2: upsets anyone too much. It needs to look like I'm

1040
00:49:05,502 --> 00:49:07,582
Speaker 2: trying to do good in the world. And when I

1041
00:49:07,622 --> 00:49:09,942
Speaker 2: say that, I don't mean it entirely snick. I'm sure,

1042
00:49:09,982 --> 00:49:11,502
Speaker 2: of course they want to. I'm sure Kate of course

1043
00:49:11,502 --> 00:49:15,262
Speaker 2: wants to, and early childhood is her thing. This article

1044
00:49:15,382 --> 00:49:18,821
Speaker 2: was published on the Royal Foundation Center for Early Childhood site,

1045
00:49:18,822 --> 00:49:21,382
Speaker 2: which is Kate's thing, right, So the Royal Foundation at

1046
00:49:21,462 --> 00:49:23,661
Speaker 2: her and Wills and they picked their stuff. What you

1047
00:49:23,701 --> 00:49:26,022
Speaker 2: will notice if you've been looking at the Royal headlines

1048
00:49:26,062 --> 00:49:28,382
Speaker 2: lately is that Kate and Williams seemed to be on

1049
00:49:28,422 --> 00:49:31,462
Speaker 2: a humanization mission. And again I don't mean that cynically,

1050
00:49:31,542 --> 00:49:34,582
Speaker 2: but the narrative put across by Prince Harry in particular

1051
00:49:34,661 --> 00:49:37,422
Speaker 2: lately has kind of painted Kate and Wills as like

1052
00:49:37,502 --> 00:49:43,422
Speaker 2: those stuffy, emotionless like old guard royals. And you know,

1053
00:49:43,741 --> 00:49:45,982
Speaker 2: over here me and Meg's are like the real people

1054
00:49:46,022 --> 00:49:48,221
Speaker 2: who are like, we're just letting it all hang out.

1055
00:49:48,382 --> 00:49:50,381
Speaker 2: And you'll notice that William lately has made a couple

1056
00:49:50,382 --> 00:49:52,661
Speaker 2: of really strategic decisions. One was to be interviewed by

1057
00:49:52,661 --> 00:49:55,861
Speaker 2: Eugene Levy on a quite random travel show in which

1058
00:49:55,902 --> 00:49:58,341
Speaker 2: he came across very human, very relaxed. And then he

1059
00:49:58,382 --> 00:50:00,942
Speaker 2: also did an interview this weekend because one of his

1060
00:50:01,261 --> 00:50:03,661
Speaker 2: passion projects, of course is mental health, as is Harry's,

1061
00:50:04,022 --> 00:50:07,222
Speaker 2: and he did a interview this weekend with a woman

1062
00:50:07,261 --> 00:50:10,261
Speaker 2: who had lost her husband to suicide. And it's a

1063
00:50:10,462 --> 00:50:14,382
Speaker 2: very touching, affecting, genuine piece of content when you see it.

1064
00:50:14,422 --> 00:50:16,701
Speaker 2: And I think that both he and Kate are kind

1065
00:50:16,741 --> 00:50:19,422
Speaker 2: of coming up in that as we know, you know,

1066
00:50:19,462 --> 00:50:21,582
Speaker 2: it's not going to be that long. Probably no one

1067
00:50:21,582 --> 00:50:22,901
Speaker 2: wants to say that out loud, but it's not going

1068
00:50:22,942 --> 00:50:25,222
Speaker 2: to be that long before he's king, and he's setting

1069
00:50:25,221 --> 00:50:27,741
Speaker 2: the table for this is who I really am. And

1070
00:50:27,781 --> 00:50:31,542
Speaker 2: I think he's pushing back on the narrative that they're cold,

1071
00:50:32,102 --> 00:50:34,222
Speaker 2: and the best way for Kate to do that because

1072
00:50:34,221 --> 00:50:40,261
Speaker 2: her public persona, not unlike Posh, is perfection control thinness,

1073
00:50:40,302 --> 00:50:43,542
Speaker 2: no question, but like you know, always be perfect. But

1074
00:50:43,741 --> 00:50:46,382
Speaker 2: she is clearly a very warm and engaged mother, and

1075
00:50:46,422 --> 00:50:48,341
Speaker 2: she clearly cares a lot about kids, So this is

1076
00:50:48,382 --> 00:50:51,301
Speaker 2: her cause and she's really into it. I think it's

1077
00:50:51,741 --> 00:50:56,421
Speaker 2: tricky though, because anything you say about parenting is inevitably

1078
00:50:56,462 --> 00:50:58,982
Speaker 2: controversial because it pushes all our judgment buttons.

1079
00:50:59,062 --> 00:51:02,181
Speaker 3: It's just so loaded, no matter how much research goes

1080
00:51:02,181 --> 00:51:04,622
Speaker 3: into it. And I think that that's because parents have

1081
00:51:04,701 --> 00:51:08,301
Speaker 3: never taken the job more seriously, and there's never been

1082
00:51:08,902 --> 00:51:12,142
Speaker 3: more advice and bombardment of like you must do this,

1083
00:51:12,261 --> 00:51:15,381
Speaker 3: you mustn't do that. I think parents are completely overwhelmed.

1084
00:51:15,862 --> 00:51:18,382
Speaker 3: We do, of course know this to be true, but

1085
00:51:18,502 --> 00:51:21,341
Speaker 3: any sense that we're having a finger wagged at us,

1086
00:51:21,942 --> 00:51:25,542
Speaker 3: I think generates this emotional response. Whereas I compared that

1087
00:51:25,701 --> 00:51:28,781
Speaker 3: to Kate Winslet, who's actually been banging on with the

1088
00:51:28,822 --> 00:51:31,301
Speaker 3: same message for a really long time and has been

1089
00:51:31,342 --> 00:51:34,701
Speaker 3: part of campaigns, and something about her messaging felt like

1090
00:51:34,741 --> 00:51:38,701
Speaker 3: it was more empowering to parents than it was shamey.

1091
00:51:39,142 --> 00:51:41,622
Speaker 3: And she basically says, you don't have to give your

1092
00:51:41,701 --> 00:51:44,741
Speaker 3: kid a phone, like you can hold off. And she's

1093
00:51:44,781 --> 00:51:46,301
Speaker 3: got kids who are now in the early twenties, but

1094
00:51:46,342 --> 00:51:47,821
Speaker 3: she's like, I never gave them a phone, they never

1095
00:51:47,822 --> 00:51:50,142
Speaker 3: got on social media. I just very kind of no

1096
00:51:50,261 --> 00:51:53,661
Speaker 3: bullshit about it. And for some reason I had more

1097
00:51:54,542 --> 00:51:56,901
Speaker 3: tolerance for that approach than this one.

1098
00:51:56,942 --> 00:51:59,341
Speaker 4: Maybe so since we're talking about the messaging, I want

1099
00:51:59,382 --> 00:52:01,982
Speaker 4: to ask you both about the difference between Kate and

1100
00:52:02,142 --> 00:52:06,102
Speaker 4: William's approach to this subject and Harry and Maggan's, because

1101
00:52:06,142 --> 00:52:09,542
Speaker 4: both of them are talking a lot about the impact

1102
00:52:09,822 --> 00:52:11,662
Speaker 4: of the digital world on young minds.

1103
00:52:12,062 --> 00:52:13,462
Speaker 1: But there's a key difference.

1104
00:52:13,982 --> 00:52:17,142
Speaker 4: Kate is talking here about phones in general and digital

1105
00:52:17,142 --> 00:52:21,381
Speaker 4: devices in general, whereas Megan and Harry have been very

1106
00:52:21,422 --> 00:52:25,261
Speaker 4: explicitly focused on the dangers of social media. Do you

1107
00:52:25,261 --> 00:52:27,821
Speaker 4: get annoyed about the social media message as well, or

1108
00:52:27,902 --> 00:52:30,062
Speaker 4: is it more just the blanket phone message.

1109
00:52:30,181 --> 00:52:33,181
Speaker 3: I wonder if it's the more specific the message the better.

1110
00:52:33,342 --> 00:52:37,142
Speaker 3: I found this really vague. Yes, And I also thought,

1111
00:52:37,342 --> 00:52:39,741
Speaker 3: and this is where I guess the privileged discussion goes up,

1112
00:52:39,781 --> 00:52:41,221
Speaker 3: like it's easier if you have a kid who's getting

1113
00:52:41,221 --> 00:52:43,221
Speaker 3: picked up from school. Right there are people with twelve

1114
00:52:43,302 --> 00:52:46,062
Speaker 3: year olds who their kid has to get two buses

1115
00:52:46,062 --> 00:52:48,741
Speaker 3: in a train to and from school, and whether or

1116
00:52:48,741 --> 00:52:51,502
Speaker 3: not they need a phone is sort of dependent on that.

1117
00:52:51,701 --> 00:52:54,381
Speaker 2: So I'm sorry, but I mean, my kids are teenagers

1118
00:52:54,422 --> 00:52:57,821
Speaker 2: and they have phones. I'm looking forward to the social

1119
00:52:57,902 --> 00:52:59,582
Speaker 2: media ban. I've been on the record of saying that

1120
00:52:59,622 --> 00:53:02,462
Speaker 2: I think it's a great idea, and it's definitely allowed

1121
00:53:02,502 --> 00:53:04,861
Speaker 2: me to make a decision about my son, who's the

1122
00:53:04,902 --> 00:53:08,582
Speaker 2: younger one that I feel like I've got ammunition ammunition

1123
00:53:08,622 --> 00:53:11,622
Speaker 2: from the government on that stoked about it, but it

1124
00:53:11,701 --> 00:53:15,142
Speaker 2: is very unrealistic. It's great, like, and I know there

1125
00:53:15,142 --> 00:53:16,542
Speaker 2: will be lots of parents will hear this and then

1126
00:53:16,582 --> 00:53:18,342
Speaker 2: message and go, I never gave my kids a phone

1127
00:53:18,582 --> 00:53:21,901
Speaker 2: or a screen, but like, what are they doing these

1128
00:53:22,022 --> 00:53:25,502
Speaker 2: kids who don't have that? Because it's the equivalent now

1129
00:53:25,502 --> 00:53:27,461
Speaker 2: of when I came home from school, I'd watch TV

1130
00:53:27,661 --> 00:53:29,821
Speaker 2: for a bit, you know, I'd watch TV. And I

1131
00:53:29,942 --> 00:53:31,941
Speaker 2: know that phones are different from TV because the short

1132
00:53:31,982 --> 00:53:35,622
Speaker 2: form videos are boiling their minds and everything. But mindless

1133
00:53:35,622 --> 00:53:38,062
Speaker 2: pleasures that involve screens are not new. This is new,

1134
00:53:38,142 --> 00:53:40,421
Speaker 2: and I think it's really great that we're pushing back

1135
00:53:40,422 --> 00:53:42,502
Speaker 2: on the tech bros and all of those things. But

1136
00:53:42,661 --> 00:53:45,261
Speaker 2: it really does, as you point out, Jesse, become a

1137
00:53:45,342 --> 00:53:48,181
Speaker 2: division of like who is supervising their kids at all

1138
00:53:48,181 --> 00:53:54,142
Speaker 2: times and giving them really wholesome, active, improving tasks and

1139
00:53:54,221 --> 00:53:57,502
Speaker 2: activities and classes. Because we're also told don't overschedule them,

1140
00:53:57,542 --> 00:53:59,462
Speaker 2: don't be a tiger parent. Da da da dah. Let

1141
00:53:59,502 --> 00:54:01,261
Speaker 2: them get bored. Yeah, let them get bored, let them

1142
00:54:01,661 --> 00:54:04,982
Speaker 2: like who is super? And that does come back to

1143
00:54:04,982 --> 00:54:06,942
Speaker 2: the privilege. I think it's interesting because I think that

1144
00:54:07,102 --> 00:54:09,262
Speaker 2: as we're knowing more and more and more about this impact,

1145
00:54:09,701 --> 00:54:12,142
Speaker 2: in five years, we will look at phones around kids

1146
00:54:12,181 --> 00:54:13,861
Speaker 2: a bit like we look at smoking around kids. I

1147
00:54:13,862 --> 00:54:16,861
Speaker 2: do think that. I also think, though, that there will

1148
00:54:16,862 --> 00:54:20,422
Speaker 2: be a massive class gap in that situation, because I

1149
00:54:20,502 --> 00:54:24,142
Speaker 2: hear middle class parents around me say, oh, I'm not

1150
00:54:24,181 --> 00:54:26,542
Speaker 2: going to be strict about lots of things, but sugar

1151
00:54:26,622 --> 00:54:29,221
Speaker 2: and screens, no, you know, And that is a very

1152
00:54:29,942 --> 00:54:34,422
Speaker 2: sort of classist division that suggests I've got time and

1153
00:54:34,502 --> 00:54:37,701
Speaker 2: resources to do all these things with my children that

1154
00:54:37,902 --> 00:54:40,821
Speaker 2: you lazy people who have other things to do and

1155
00:54:41,221 --> 00:54:43,142
Speaker 2: want to just hand your kid a phone or a

1156
00:54:43,142 --> 00:54:46,861
Speaker 2: screen don't have. It's interesting because I think it's one

1157
00:54:46,902 --> 00:54:48,821
Speaker 2: of those times when where we started with this is

1158
00:54:48,862 --> 00:54:51,301
Speaker 2: we know it's right, but it's going to take a

1159
00:54:51,342 --> 00:54:55,102
Speaker 2: while for us to really figure out what parenting looks

1160
00:54:55,142 --> 00:54:58,261
Speaker 2: like without screens. That is all we've got time for.

1161
00:54:58,342 --> 00:55:01,261
Speaker 2: On this Monday out Loud is a massive thank you

1162
00:55:01,661 --> 00:55:03,142
Speaker 2: to all of you who are here with us to

1163
00:55:03,181 --> 00:55:04,982
Speaker 2: start off the week and hopefully stick with us as

1164
00:55:05,022 --> 00:55:07,502
Speaker 2: we go through it, and to our fabulous team for

1165
00:55:07,542 --> 00:55:10,462
Speaker 2: putting the show together. Friends, don't forget you can watch

1166
00:55:10,542 --> 00:55:12,301
Speaker 2: us on YouTube. Why wouldn't you want to do that?

1167
00:55:13,822 --> 00:55:16,341
Speaker 2: And we'll be back in your ears tomorrow with that

1168
00:55:16,462 --> 00:55:19,301
Speaker 2: deep dive about the Victoria Beckham docker where we'll go

1169
00:55:19,342 --> 00:55:21,382
Speaker 2: to all the juicy places, We'll go to all the

1170
00:55:21,542 --> 00:55:24,862
Speaker 2: where was Brooklyn? Was that skirt too short?

1171
00:55:26,181 --> 00:55:27,421
Speaker 3: How is that woman's name?

1172
00:55:29,582 --> 00:55:34,901
Speaker 2: So you then eat the whisper. Shout out to any

1173
00:55:34,942 --> 00:55:37,901
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia subscribers listening. If you love the show and

1174
00:55:37,982 --> 00:55:40,741
Speaker 2: you want to support us, subscribing to Mamma Mia is

1175
00:55:40,781 --> 00:55:43,142
Speaker 2: the very best way to do it. There's a link

1176
00:55:43,221 --> 00:55:44,422
Speaker 2: in the episode description