1 00:00:10,622 --> 00:00:13,342 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 2 00:00:13,822 --> 00:00:17,182 Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and warders 3 00:00:17,222 --> 00:00:18,901 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. 4 00:00:22,061 --> 00:00:26,781 Speaker 1: Pink. 5 00:00:27,422 --> 00:00:37,502 Speaker 2: She's fabulous, hot, Okay, okay, Hello, and welcome to Mamma 6 00:00:37,582 --> 00:00:40,142 Speaker 2: Mia out loud is what women are actually talking about 7 00:00:40,182 --> 00:00:43,582 Speaker 2: on Monday, March the thirty first, I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm 8 00:00:43,582 --> 00:00:44,422 Speaker 2: Meya Friedman and. 9 00:00:44,382 --> 00:00:45,462 Speaker 3: I'm Jesse Stevens. 10 00:00:45,502 --> 00:00:48,782 Speaker 2: And on the show today, what did you do before 11 00:00:48,902 --> 00:00:51,662 Speaker 2: nine am? And did it involve dunking your face in 12 00:00:51,742 --> 00:00:54,102 Speaker 2: ice at least three times and rubbing the inside of 13 00:00:54,142 --> 00:00:56,822 Speaker 2: a banana on your skin? If not, you need to 14 00:00:56,822 --> 00:01:00,222 Speaker 2: meet the man with the five hour morning routine. Also, 15 00:01:00,582 --> 00:01:03,542 Speaker 2: she's never met a happy parent. Welcome to the next 16 00:01:03,582 --> 00:01:07,782 Speaker 2: installment of Chapel Roon speaking her on popular truth And 17 00:01:08,422 --> 00:01:11,422 Speaker 2: did you know that worries takes as much energy as 18 00:01:11,462 --> 00:01:14,982 Speaker 2: climbing a set of stairs carrying something heavy. Yes, we 19 00:01:15,102 --> 00:01:18,382 Speaker 2: now know the real reason you're always so tired. But first, 20 00:01:18,542 --> 00:01:20,022 Speaker 2: Jesse Stevens. 21 00:01:19,662 --> 00:01:22,381 Speaker 3: In case he missed it. Last week, Prime Minister Anthony 22 00:01:22,422 --> 00:01:26,662 Speaker 3: Abernezi alleged that the coalition opposition government is and I 23 00:01:26,782 --> 00:01:30,582 Speaker 3: quote de Lulu with no slulu, similarly to how most 24 00:01:30,702 --> 00:01:33,422 Speaker 3: gen z's use the phrase. The term was wedged between 25 00:01:33,462 --> 00:01:36,822 Speaker 3: talk of fiscal policy and followed up with mister speaker. 26 00:01:37,462 --> 00:01:39,941 Speaker 3: So ALBERANIZI was in the House of Reps talking about 27 00:01:39,942 --> 00:01:42,982 Speaker 3: the federal budget when he delivered the line, which can 28 00:01:43,022 --> 00:01:45,702 Speaker 3: be translated to mean delusional with no solution. 29 00:01:45,862 --> 00:01:47,782 Speaker 1: I need to hear him say it in his This 30 00:01:47,822 --> 00:01:51,422 Speaker 1: is what he said. They are delulu with no salulu, 31 00:01:51,582 --> 00:01:59,862 Speaker 1: mister smoaker. They are completely delusional, completely delusional, mister speaker. 32 00:01:59,822 --> 00:02:01,342 Speaker 2: And the crowd went wild. 33 00:02:01,422 --> 00:02:03,902 Speaker 1: What you can't oh, he actually delivered it quite well. 34 00:02:04,022 --> 00:02:06,382 Speaker 3: What you can't see is how Chufty is with himself. 35 00:02:06,422 --> 00:02:10,262 Speaker 3: He puts a little smirk. Actually I dropped it. Yeah, 36 00:02:10,582 --> 00:02:12,502 Speaker 3: and I'm sure that he had written this little phrase 37 00:02:12,501 --> 00:02:14,821 Speaker 3: on his palm cards, done some practices in the mirror, 38 00:02:14,901 --> 00:02:17,662 Speaker 3: so yeah, he could say it naturally. But it turns 39 00:02:17,702 --> 00:02:20,142 Speaker 3: out that the phrase was kind of a dare. Listen 40 00:02:20,222 --> 00:02:23,462 Speaker 3: to this segment from the Happy Hour podcast with Lucy 41 00:02:23,462 --> 00:02:23,862 Speaker 3: and Nikki. 42 00:02:24,102 --> 00:02:26,142 Speaker 2: The Lulu use it in a sentence. 43 00:02:26,422 --> 00:02:28,102 Speaker 1: I must be de Lulu, but I feel like he 44 00:02:28,222 --> 00:02:29,142 Speaker 1: was giving me the eyes. 45 00:02:29,782 --> 00:02:34,822 Speaker 2: Delusional Yeah, okay, next one who did that? Non nuclear 46 00:02:34,902 --> 00:02:39,942 Speaker 2: power costs the Lulu, I dated, I can do that. 47 00:02:42,782 --> 00:02:44,062 Speaker 1: Budget wait next week. 48 00:02:44,422 --> 00:02:47,182 Speaker 2: But a little in joke between the three of us 49 00:02:47,222 --> 00:02:48,862 Speaker 2: and all of your. 50 00:02:48,942 --> 00:02:50,782 Speaker 1: The punters, the three of us and the. 51 00:02:50,702 --> 00:02:53,702 Speaker 2: Punters, that's so wild. 52 00:02:53,782 --> 00:02:55,542 Speaker 1: Yes, so playing it very well. 53 00:02:55,662 --> 00:02:59,422 Speaker 3: Politics is now just daring politicians to say shit in 54 00:02:59,702 --> 00:03:01,302 Speaker 3: Parliament and having a little bit of a giggle. 55 00:03:01,502 --> 00:03:03,982 Speaker 1: It's interesting because since the election was called last week, 56 00:03:04,181 --> 00:03:06,422 Speaker 1: thankfully we are going to the polls on May third 57 00:03:06,582 --> 00:03:09,062 Speaker 1: and not on May seventeen, which is it's our final 58 00:03:09,142 --> 00:03:09,862 Speaker 1: show in the tour. 59 00:03:09,982 --> 00:03:12,022 Speaker 3: We put it in a very nervous and said we 60 00:03:13,181 --> 00:03:14,022 Speaker 3: want the spotlight. 61 00:03:15,382 --> 00:03:17,181 Speaker 2: It's all about us democracy. 62 00:03:17,302 --> 00:03:21,302 Speaker 1: But you can see that he really enjoys campaigning. He 63 00:03:21,422 --> 00:03:24,742 Speaker 1: really enjoys being out there. He's having a good time. 64 00:03:24,822 --> 00:03:26,582 Speaker 1: I mean, I think we kind of saw that when 65 00:03:26,982 --> 00:03:29,782 Speaker 1: both he and Peter Dutton came into the MUMA Mer office. 66 00:03:30,181 --> 00:03:33,702 Speaker 1: Peter Dutton this is his first campaign as a leader, 67 00:03:33,782 --> 00:03:38,142 Speaker 1: whereas Albaneze has done this before and he clearly enjoys it. 68 00:03:38,182 --> 00:03:40,382 Speaker 1: But it reminded me of how in trouble you can 69 00:03:40,422 --> 00:03:43,382 Speaker 1: get by using phrases you don't quite understand the meaning of. 70 00:03:43,702 --> 00:03:46,982 Speaker 1: I had to deliver a speech at a school last year, 71 00:03:47,542 --> 00:03:50,382 Speaker 1: and luckily I checked it with my daughter before I 72 00:03:50,462 --> 00:03:52,382 Speaker 1: gave it, because I was going to use the word 73 00:03:52,622 --> 00:03:57,102 Speaker 1: riz to talk about the head of pastoral care charisma, right, Well, 74 00:03:57,142 --> 00:04:00,742 Speaker 1: I thought it was that, but apparently it's like the 75 00:04:00,862 --> 00:04:04,742 Speaker 1: type of charisma that kind of is flirty and is 76 00:04:04,782 --> 00:04:06,702 Speaker 1: a bit sexual and get someone to sleep with you, 77 00:04:07,022 --> 00:04:10,102 Speaker 1: which will be a very bad thing to say about 78 00:04:10,102 --> 00:04:10,982 Speaker 1: a pastroe. 79 00:04:11,142 --> 00:04:13,902 Speaker 3: Holly, do you reckon? This strategy works. 80 00:04:13,462 --> 00:04:16,022 Speaker 2: Well, So this is interesting. When that happened, I was 81 00:04:16,022 --> 00:04:19,502 Speaker 2: in the MoMA mir office and people kind of gasped. 82 00:04:19,502 --> 00:04:21,582 Speaker 2: Not that we had question time on the screens, but 83 00:04:21,622 --> 00:04:24,182 Speaker 2: it obviously came through people's social media feeds very quickly, 84 00:04:24,622 --> 00:04:27,421 Speaker 2: and people gasped and everybody started talking about it, and 85 00:04:27,541 --> 00:04:30,861 Speaker 2: my first instinct was cringe. Right, my first instinct was 86 00:04:30,941 --> 00:04:37,301 Speaker 2: absolutely cringe, like, don't try and use the cool people's language. Elbow, 87 00:04:37,582 --> 00:04:41,581 Speaker 2: you are not cool, Like you might be many things, 88 00:04:42,061 --> 00:04:42,502 Speaker 2: but you. 89 00:04:42,421 --> 00:04:45,222 Speaker 1: Are not skybity toilet cool is. 90 00:04:45,222 --> 00:04:49,141 Speaker 2: Not one of them. But it seems to have really worked, 91 00:04:49,222 --> 00:04:51,981 Speaker 2: because I thought that everybody under the age of forty 92 00:04:51,981 --> 00:04:54,342 Speaker 2: would be going, oh my god, stop it, But actually 93 00:04:54,381 --> 00:04:57,701 Speaker 2: it seems that it's really working. And it's interesting because 94 00:04:57,861 --> 00:05:00,381 Speaker 2: we've talked a lot about how attention is everything. Now 95 00:05:00,902 --> 00:05:05,101 Speaker 2: they're going quite hard on that strategy, TikTok strategy, controversial posts, 96 00:05:05,142 --> 00:05:07,981 Speaker 2: Sabrina Carpenter opening her coat to reveal a Medicare card. 97 00:05:08,022 --> 00:05:10,141 Speaker 2: That kind of stuff seems to to be working. 98 00:05:10,342 --> 00:05:13,101 Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember that Kevin O seven did that for 99 00:05:13,142 --> 00:05:16,662 Speaker 1: the first time. He was the youngest kind of political 100 00:05:16,741 --> 00:05:19,062 Speaker 1: leader that we'd had in a while, and he was 101 00:05:19,101 --> 00:05:22,462 Speaker 1: the first one to understand how connecting yourself to popular 102 00:05:22,462 --> 00:05:26,822 Speaker 1: culture and trying to appeal to a younger generation who 103 00:05:26,941 --> 00:05:30,101 Speaker 1: vote obviously is really smart and keeps you relevant and 104 00:05:30,181 --> 00:05:31,181 Speaker 1: keeps you in the news. 105 00:05:31,421 --> 00:05:34,221 Speaker 2: It's risky, though, because there's a fine line between being 106 00:05:34,381 --> 00:05:38,421 Speaker 2: funny and appearing un serious, right, and people really want 107 00:05:38,421 --> 00:05:40,621 Speaker 2: their leaders to be quite serious. So I did hear 108 00:05:40,662 --> 00:05:43,301 Speaker 2: a bit of commentary that was like, watch out, albow, 109 00:05:43,501 --> 00:05:45,541 Speaker 2: don't become a joke, and that's the line you've got 110 00:05:45,582 --> 00:05:46,142 Speaker 2: to walk, right. 111 00:05:47,462 --> 00:05:50,941 Speaker 1: An American male fitness influencer called Ashton Hall has shared 112 00:05:50,981 --> 00:05:53,701 Speaker 1: his morning routine and a video that has gone viral, 113 00:05:53,861 --> 00:05:57,981 Speaker 1: mostly because it's insane and goes for nearly six hours. Thankfully, 114 00:05:58,421 --> 00:06:01,301 Speaker 1: he's cut this down to about ninety seconds a video 115 00:06:01,821 --> 00:06:05,941 Speaker 1: which includes the following elements. There is mouth taping and 116 00:06:06,022 --> 00:06:08,421 Speaker 1: also nose taping. He's got some tape on the bridge 117 00:06:08,421 --> 00:06:11,301 Speaker 1: of his nose and also some tape over his mouth, 118 00:06:11,301 --> 00:06:13,861 Speaker 1: which apparently reduces snoring. 119 00:06:14,101 --> 00:06:17,141 Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's good for like clearing the nasal passages 120 00:06:17,181 --> 00:06:18,021 Speaker 3: and all that kind of stuff. 121 00:06:18,101 --> 00:06:19,222 Speaker 1: Suddenly blackhead. 122 00:06:19,381 --> 00:06:22,342 Speaker 2: No, No, that strip is snoring. But the mouth taping 123 00:06:22,381 --> 00:06:24,782 Speaker 2: has a whole lot of applications. Is it just me? 124 00:06:25,022 --> 00:06:27,061 Speaker 2: Or is it every time I pick up my phone, 125 00:06:27,142 --> 00:06:29,381 Speaker 2: somebody's got their mouth taped now. Yeah, and it's quite 126 00:06:29,421 --> 00:06:30,741 Speaker 2: a confronting visual. 127 00:06:30,902 --> 00:06:32,541 Speaker 1: So you're kind of like, why are you on a 128 00:06:32,582 --> 00:06:33,342 Speaker 1: sex website? 129 00:06:33,582 --> 00:06:36,541 Speaker 2: No, it's like all the wellness women like loads of 130 00:06:36,582 --> 00:06:38,222 Speaker 2: people mouth tape. You can buy it. 131 00:06:38,541 --> 00:06:40,621 Speaker 1: Well, I've got a mouthguard, so I don't know if 132 00:06:40,662 --> 00:06:42,821 Speaker 1: I can mouthguard and mouth tape. I think that's a 133 00:06:42,821 --> 00:06:45,662 Speaker 1: bit too many things. We haven't even begun really with 134 00:06:45,702 --> 00:06:48,861 Speaker 1: the morning routine, because he does several ice cold facial 135 00:06:48,981 --> 00:06:50,981 Speaker 1: plunges where he has his big bowl of water, puts 136 00:06:51,022 --> 00:06:54,222 Speaker 1: the ice in it, pours a branded bottle of water 137 00:06:54,262 --> 00:06:57,301 Speaker 1: into it. Actually usually someone pours it for him. Then 138 00:06:57,621 --> 00:07:00,261 Speaker 1: he eats some banana and then rubs the skin on 139 00:07:00,342 --> 00:07:03,101 Speaker 1: his face for the purported skincare benefits. He has a 140 00:07:03,181 --> 00:07:06,902 Speaker 1: high protein breakfast of bacon, eggs, avocado prepared for him 141 00:07:07,061 --> 00:07:10,422 Speaker 1: by a chef, some very intense work outs in several 142 00:07:10,422 --> 00:07:15,581 Speaker 1: different locations. There's push ups on his balcony, swimming, sprinting. 143 00:07:16,542 --> 00:07:19,102 Speaker 1: He also meditates before he does all that. He meditates. 144 00:07:19,142 --> 00:07:22,182 Speaker 1: He journals, and he reads passages from the Bible and 145 00:07:22,222 --> 00:07:26,142 Speaker 1: watches a little bit of a like a preacher maybe. 146 00:07:25,782 --> 00:07:27,821 Speaker 3: Talking about the Lord on his talking about the Lord. 147 00:07:28,782 --> 00:07:31,261 Speaker 1: Now, this goes from what time did he get up? 148 00:07:31,302 --> 00:07:34,582 Speaker 1: About three point fifty in the morning, and it goes 149 00:07:34,662 --> 00:07:38,542 Speaker 1: until about nine o'clock, and you'll be shocked to hear that. 150 00:07:38,662 --> 00:07:42,702 Speaker 1: Public reaction has been quite polarized. Critics have mocked him 151 00:07:42,902 --> 00:07:47,261 Speaker 1: for being excessive, while others have praised his discipline, and 152 00:07:47,422 --> 00:07:54,221 Speaker 1: experts warn that it promotes unrealistic masculinity and hustle culture. Jesse, 153 00:07:55,502 --> 00:08:00,982 Speaker 1: why don't women release six hour, batshit crazy morning routine videos? 154 00:08:01,462 --> 00:08:05,342 Speaker 3: The male morning routine video is a genre onto itself 155 00:08:05,422 --> 00:08:07,822 Speaker 3: at the moment, and Derek Thompson we spoke about this 156 00:08:08,142 --> 00:08:11,821 Speaker 3: a few months ago about this phenomenon of the male 157 00:08:12,302 --> 00:08:15,782 Speaker 3: sort of morning routine and how it almost never features 158 00:08:15,782 --> 00:08:19,021 Speaker 3: another person. It's incredibly isolated. 159 00:08:19,022 --> 00:08:20,581 Speaker 1: And accept people handing you thing. 160 00:08:20,782 --> 00:08:22,902 Speaker 2: I'd like to see the morning routine of a woman 161 00:08:22,982 --> 00:08:25,862 Speaker 2: who at four twenty was sweeping up his broken bottle. 162 00:08:26,062 --> 00:08:27,422 Speaker 2: That's the morning routine. 163 00:08:27,102 --> 00:08:29,941 Speaker 1: I'd like to see, and whipping his egg whites. 164 00:08:29,821 --> 00:08:31,862 Speaker 3: And someone just kind of hands him a towl like 165 00:08:31,902 --> 00:08:33,222 Speaker 3: he has someone. 166 00:08:33,262 --> 00:08:35,742 Speaker 2: And it's not an accident that that hand that is 167 00:08:35,742 --> 00:08:39,662 Speaker 2: sweeping body is also a female hand with long glamorous 168 00:08:39,742 --> 00:08:41,182 Speaker 2: nails and jewelry that is not. 169 00:08:42,102 --> 00:08:43,902 Speaker 3: And that at no point does he ask that person 170 00:08:43,942 --> 00:08:48,262 Speaker 3: how they slept. So there's this man named Patrick Wyman 171 00:08:48,702 --> 00:08:52,702 Speaker 3: who talks about bro credentials and it's America, but I 172 00:08:52,702 --> 00:08:56,142 Speaker 3: think it's broader of the kind of contemporary man is 173 00:08:56,182 --> 00:08:59,302 Speaker 3: made up of certain features. So there's the gym, there's 174 00:08:59,462 --> 00:09:02,622 Speaker 3: the weights. Christianity seems to be a feature of it. 175 00:09:02,702 --> 00:09:04,982 Speaker 3: Being an entrepreneur seems to be a feature of it, 176 00:09:05,382 --> 00:09:06,662 Speaker 3: this biohacking thing. 177 00:09:06,862 --> 00:09:09,022 Speaker 1: Because his job. I looked into a little bit more 178 00:09:09,022 --> 00:09:11,502 Speaker 1: about who he is. He was a kind of a 179 00:09:11,542 --> 00:09:14,622 Speaker 1: regular guy, a fitness trainer and stuff, and then now 180 00:09:14,702 --> 00:09:17,862 Speaker 1: he is an influencer, and the way he makes his 181 00:09:17,942 --> 00:09:21,502 Speaker 1: money is by teaching other fitness professionals how to make money. 182 00:09:21,542 --> 00:09:22,982 Speaker 1: So it's quite puircular. 183 00:09:23,022 --> 00:09:26,982 Speaker 3: It's a bit m and this is all about his body, right. 184 00:09:27,062 --> 00:09:30,062 Speaker 3: For most of this video he's topless. He has an 185 00:09:30,062 --> 00:09:33,102 Speaker 3: incredible body, and he sells a lot of supplements and 186 00:09:33,222 --> 00:09:35,942 Speaker 3: a lot of products. So this isn't at essentially this 187 00:09:36,062 --> 00:09:39,702 Speaker 3: is his job. Yes, but I was reading this analysis that 188 00:09:39,782 --> 00:09:42,302 Speaker 3: at a time when there's like social stagnation, when a 189 00:09:42,342 --> 00:09:44,542 Speaker 3: lot of men feel like they can't get the job 190 00:09:44,622 --> 00:09:47,262 Speaker 3: or the money that they want, the obsession becomes with 191 00:09:47,302 --> 00:09:50,582 Speaker 3: the body because there's this physical meritocracy of it doesn't 192 00:09:50,622 --> 00:09:51,902 Speaker 3: matter if I've got all the money in the world 193 00:09:52,022 --> 00:09:55,422 Speaker 3: or if I'm struggling, I can get jacked and I 194 00:09:55,462 --> 00:09:59,422 Speaker 3: can control putting my face in the ice and lifting 195 00:09:59,422 --> 00:10:01,142 Speaker 3: weights and all that kind of stuff. 196 00:10:01,302 --> 00:10:03,142 Speaker 1: Because if that's the thing that's going to make you 197 00:10:03,222 --> 00:10:03,622 Speaker 1: the money. 198 00:10:03,662 --> 00:10:06,422 Speaker 3: But it's not, no, no, And I think that the fact, 199 00:10:06,502 --> 00:10:09,982 Speaker 3: I mean, women do ridiculous morning routines too. Of course, however, 200 00:10:10,462 --> 00:10:13,182 Speaker 3: women disproportionately have someone else to get out a bit 201 00:10:13,662 --> 00:10:16,622 Speaker 3: and to care for. Like I think about the morning 202 00:10:17,102 --> 00:10:19,902 Speaker 3: that I just had and I roll out of bed 203 00:10:19,982 --> 00:10:22,582 Speaker 3: after snoozing the alarm a million times. I pick up 204 00:10:22,622 --> 00:10:24,702 Speaker 3: my phone. First thing hits me in the head because 205 00:10:24,702 --> 00:10:27,622 Speaker 3: I dropped it. My hair dryer set on fire again 206 00:10:28,342 --> 00:10:30,342 Speaker 3: for the second time. I try not to get touched 207 00:10:30,382 --> 00:10:32,742 Speaker 3: with Luna's whet Bix little fingers, and I'm not even 208 00:10:32,902 --> 00:10:33,662 Speaker 3: I'm not awake now. 209 00:10:33,702 --> 00:10:36,502 Speaker 1: My morning routine involved running around the house looking for 210 00:10:36,542 --> 00:10:40,662 Speaker 1: buckets too because the roof was leaking, letting the dogs out, 211 00:10:40,782 --> 00:10:44,342 Speaker 1: cleaning up dog pooh, etc. But what I think is interesting, Holan, 212 00:10:44,582 --> 00:10:46,902 Speaker 1: I want to know what you think about this. To me, 213 00:10:47,262 --> 00:10:50,702 Speaker 1: it's a little deeper than that, in that women are 214 00:10:50,822 --> 00:10:54,822 Speaker 1: encouraged to not show what it takes to look how 215 00:10:54,822 --> 00:10:57,742 Speaker 1: we look. Don't show your work. Basically, don't show the 216 00:10:57,782 --> 00:11:01,342 Speaker 1: paddling duck swimming under the surface. Only show the result. 217 00:11:01,502 --> 00:11:04,262 Speaker 1: Make it look effortless. And women are mocked for this 218 00:11:04,342 --> 00:11:07,942 Speaker 1: idea of striving and having to try hard. Whereas for 219 00:11:08,542 --> 00:11:12,582 Speaker 1: men like Rian Johnson, these men who spend all this 220 00:11:12,782 --> 00:11:16,902 Speaker 1: time and it's so circular because it's not I'm spending 221 00:11:16,942 --> 00:11:20,422 Speaker 1: all this time on myself so that I can meet 222 00:11:20,662 --> 00:11:24,022 Speaker 1: a person or do It's like the job is the self. 223 00:11:24,382 --> 00:11:28,302 Speaker 2: I think you could find plenty of ridiculous morning routines 224 00:11:28,342 --> 00:11:30,982 Speaker 2: of female influencers who are in a similar space to 225 00:11:31,102 --> 00:11:34,422 Speaker 2: him and who have supplements to sell and have personal 226 00:11:34,502 --> 00:11:36,141 Speaker 2: try like because you've got to remember, this guy is 227 00:11:36,222 --> 00:11:39,062 Speaker 2: very specific. The reason why it's kind of silly that 228 00:11:39,102 --> 00:11:41,262 Speaker 2: everybody's upset about it. We're not upset about it, but 229 00:11:41,302 --> 00:11:44,942 Speaker 2: fascinated is that it's not like he works in a 230 00:11:44,982 --> 00:11:47,262 Speaker 2: bank or a childcare center or something like that. He 231 00:11:47,382 --> 00:11:50,222 Speaker 2: is preparing his body like it is his job. And 232 00:11:50,262 --> 00:11:54,022 Speaker 2: the caption on this video said, easy morning routines don't 233 00:11:54,022 --> 00:11:58,661 Speaker 2: get results, right, So he's like deliberately saying suffer. It's suffering, 234 00:11:58,862 --> 00:12:02,182 Speaker 2: it's hard work, get up and hustle. Kim Kardashian would 235 00:12:02,182 --> 00:12:05,022 Speaker 2: say the same thing. You know, so I don't necessarily 236 00:12:05,022 --> 00:12:08,462 Speaker 2: think it's gendered. It's about privilege because you've got to 237 00:12:08,462 --> 00:12:10,782 Speaker 2: have the other person there doing all this stuff for you, 238 00:12:10,862 --> 00:12:13,062 Speaker 2: the person with the nails who's like making his egg 239 00:12:13,102 --> 00:12:15,782 Speaker 2: whites and all those things. And then it's also about 240 00:12:15,782 --> 00:12:18,342 Speaker 2: time because, as Jesse says, if you're caring for anyone else, 241 00:12:18,382 --> 00:12:21,902 Speaker 2: your morning is just gone right. But there's a certain 242 00:12:22,102 --> 00:12:26,822 Speaker 2: aspirational appeal of if only I could nail my morning, 243 00:12:27,542 --> 00:12:29,702 Speaker 2: everything else would be great. This morning, on the way in, 244 00:12:29,822 --> 00:12:32,222 Speaker 2: I was listening to a podcast, and I was listening 245 00:12:32,222 --> 00:12:35,142 Speaker 2: to a woman called doctor Stacy Simms, who's like a 246 00:12:35,222 --> 00:12:38,062 Speaker 2: doctor who an American doctor who's all about telling women. 247 00:12:38,422 --> 00:12:41,342 Speaker 2: And she said that the very first thing a woman 248 00:12:41,382 --> 00:12:43,862 Speaker 2: should do in the morning is eat something. You have 249 00:12:43,942 --> 00:12:45,662 Speaker 2: to put some food in your body, she said, even 250 00:12:45,702 --> 00:12:49,702 Speaker 2: if it's only two teaspoons of yogurt. Yogurt, that is 251 00:12:49,742 --> 00:12:52,302 Speaker 2: the game changer. And I found the idea of eating 252 00:12:52,302 --> 00:12:54,982 Speaker 2: two teaspoons of yogurt in the morning too intimidating. 253 00:12:55,102 --> 00:12:58,342 Speaker 1: So I don't know in five hours, But. 254 00:12:58,342 --> 00:13:00,382 Speaker 3: They keep getting more extreme. 255 00:13:00,142 --> 00:13:03,342 Speaker 2: Right because it's this idea of set yourself up. I 256 00:13:03,382 --> 00:13:06,062 Speaker 2: hear so many people saying get up, meditate, and journal. 257 00:13:06,142 --> 00:13:08,222 Speaker 2: That is a massive thing for all genders. It's like, 258 00:13:08,622 --> 00:13:10,702 Speaker 2: do that set yourself up mentally for the day, and 259 00:13:10,702 --> 00:13:13,462 Speaker 2: then you've got to set yourself up mentally and physically 260 00:13:13,822 --> 00:13:17,302 Speaker 2: and nutritionally, and if you do have children. I watch 261 00:13:17,342 --> 00:13:20,382 Speaker 2: a lot of videos of the sort of aspirational homemakery. 262 00:13:20,422 --> 00:13:22,742 Speaker 2: People they have to get up super early to do 263 00:13:22,782 --> 00:13:25,262 Speaker 2: all that and then get their children up and then 264 00:13:25,302 --> 00:13:27,902 Speaker 2: make the breakfast for their children. So we're now getting 265 00:13:27,942 --> 00:13:30,342 Speaker 2: up in negative territory. We're getting up at two am, 266 00:13:30,462 --> 00:13:32,142 Speaker 2: one am, like it's wild. 267 00:13:32,382 --> 00:13:33,982 Speaker 3: We're getting up before we go to bed. I have 268 00:13:34,022 --> 00:13:34,502 Speaker 3: to watch. 269 00:13:34,382 --> 00:13:38,662 Speaker 1: Someone this week who lives three hours from where she works. 270 00:13:38,702 --> 00:13:41,782 Speaker 1: She lives in Geelong, works in Melbourne, and I asked 271 00:13:41,822 --> 00:13:45,902 Speaker 1: her about her morning routine, and she wakes up at 272 00:13:46,382 --> 00:13:48,862 Speaker 1: three point fifty one or four fifty one, similar to 273 00:13:48,982 --> 00:13:53,902 Speaker 1: this guy, and goes to the gym and exercises before 274 00:13:53,942 --> 00:13:56,582 Speaker 1: she then gets in the car and drives three hours 275 00:13:56,582 --> 00:13:59,662 Speaker 1: to work. And to me, I've got a really strict 276 00:13:59,702 --> 00:14:02,622 Speaker 1: morning routine as well. It doesn't go for this long, 277 00:14:03,142 --> 00:14:06,302 Speaker 1: but there's something to me about not having to make 278 00:14:06,302 --> 00:14:08,782 Speaker 1: too many decisions in the morning and doing that same 279 00:14:08,862 --> 00:14:13,222 Speaker 1: thing again and again, which is quite helpful the structure 280 00:14:13,262 --> 00:14:15,302 Speaker 1: of it. But I think, what this guy's doing, I mean, 281 00:14:15,462 --> 00:14:17,862 Speaker 1: it's just marketing, like he knew exactly what he was doing. 282 00:14:17,942 --> 00:14:21,102 Speaker 1: And so of course he's released his nighttime routine, which 283 00:14:21,142 --> 00:14:23,582 Speaker 1: starts at about three point thirty in the afternoon and 284 00:14:23,662 --> 00:14:26,222 Speaker 1: involves him going to bed at seven thirty. And again 285 00:14:26,582 --> 00:14:28,662 Speaker 1: he looks like he lives in the severance office and 286 00:14:28,742 --> 00:14:32,102 Speaker 1: he doesn't have anyone else in his life. And he says, oh, 287 00:14:32,342 --> 00:14:35,342 Speaker 1: at night is where temptation lives. So it's like he 288 00:14:35,382 --> 00:14:37,622 Speaker 1: has to go to bed at seven thirty in case 289 00:14:37,662 --> 00:14:41,182 Speaker 1: he's tempted by something that's not biblical. And I'm just like, 290 00:14:41,262 --> 00:14:43,822 Speaker 1: so it can make you feel quite existential and say, 291 00:14:43,862 --> 00:14:46,782 Speaker 1: what is the purpose of these lives if they are 292 00:14:47,022 --> 00:14:49,102 Speaker 1: just I felt that way about Brian Johnson as well. 293 00:14:49,142 --> 00:14:51,502 Speaker 1: Who has you know, if they are just to either 294 00:14:51,542 --> 00:14:54,102 Speaker 1: live longer or make more money. And that's really all 295 00:14:54,102 --> 00:14:57,662 Speaker 1: it is. It's about making more money for him, it's 296 00:14:57,662 --> 00:14:59,902 Speaker 1: not even what's he producing. He's an influencer. 297 00:14:59,902 --> 00:15:02,342 Speaker 2: He's producing himself. Yeah, he's producing him because you know 298 00:15:02,422 --> 00:15:04,782 Speaker 2: his body is It's true that you do not get 299 00:15:04,782 --> 00:15:06,982 Speaker 2: that body by sleeping until ten am, rolling over and 300 00:15:07,062 --> 00:15:09,942 Speaker 2: getting him a uffin like you just don't ca that 301 00:15:10,102 --> 00:15:13,742 Speaker 2: is not how it works. But you're right, Jesse. There's 302 00:15:13,782 --> 00:15:16,862 Speaker 2: a sort of undercurrent, particularly of this masculine kind of 303 00:15:16,902 --> 00:15:18,982 Speaker 2: influence that there's a lot of virtue in it, isn't it. 304 00:15:19,142 --> 00:15:21,062 Speaker 2: There's a lot of virtue in getting up early. There's 305 00:15:21,102 --> 00:15:22,702 Speaker 2: a lot of virtue with him in Mel Robinson's the 306 00:15:22,782 --> 00:15:25,382 Speaker 2: who says five seconds get out of bed, jump out 307 00:15:25,382 --> 00:15:28,622 Speaker 2: of bed. Everybody is about that, get up before daw 308 00:15:28,662 --> 00:15:32,502 Speaker 2: and maximize productivity. And it's like there's something about discipline 309 00:15:32,542 --> 00:15:33,542 Speaker 2: we find very appealing. 310 00:15:33,702 --> 00:15:37,062 Speaker 3: He barely says anything in the video, but there's one line. 311 00:15:37,102 --> 00:15:39,182 Speaker 3: He's on a meeting very early and he says, looking 312 00:15:39,182 --> 00:15:40,982 Speaker 3: at it, bro, we need to get in at least 313 00:15:40,982 --> 00:15:44,302 Speaker 3: ten thousand, which I think just encapsulates exactly what I 314 00:15:44,342 --> 00:15:45,222 Speaker 3: think of every business. 315 00:15:45,222 --> 00:15:45,422 Speaker 4: Bro. 316 00:15:45,662 --> 00:15:47,982 Speaker 3: The conversations that he's having in a. 317 00:15:47,942 --> 00:15:51,382 Speaker 2: Moment, Are you happy if not? Pop, Doctor Chapel Rowan 318 00:15:51,462 --> 00:15:54,742 Speaker 2: has a diagnosis for you. You might be a parent. 319 00:15:59,142 --> 00:15:59,502 Speaker 5: Kids. 320 00:15:59,782 --> 00:16:01,422 Speaker 4: All of my friends who have kids are in hell. 321 00:16:02,422 --> 00:16:04,462 Speaker 5: I don't know anyone. I actually don't know anyone who's 322 00:16:04,502 --> 00:16:07,142 Speaker 5: like happy and has children at this age. 323 00:16:07,262 --> 00:16:07,782 Speaker 1: I have like. 324 00:16:09,302 --> 00:16:12,262 Speaker 5: One year old, like three year old, four and under 325 00:16:12,302 --> 00:16:14,582 Speaker 5: five and under don't. I literally have not met anyone 326 00:16:14,582 --> 00:16:17,382 Speaker 5: who's happy, anyone who has like light in their eyes, 327 00:16:17,382 --> 00:16:20,422 Speaker 5: anyone who has who has slept is it's all looking 328 00:16:20,462 --> 00:16:23,262 Speaker 5: too good. I'm like, why do my parents do that? 329 00:16:23,262 --> 00:16:24,902 Speaker 3: Mata, I'm not all there is a four My mom 330 00:16:24,942 --> 00:16:26,022 Speaker 3: had me at twenty three. 331 00:16:26,222 --> 00:16:29,102 Speaker 2: That was Chapel Roan, just after being asked if she's 332 00:16:29,142 --> 00:16:31,662 Speaker 2: still friends with any of her hometown bodies. It's fair 333 00:16:31,702 --> 00:16:34,422 Speaker 2: to say that if she was, she probably isn't anymore. 334 00:16:35,862 --> 00:16:38,182 Speaker 2: Chapel is twenty seven me I sing us something that 335 00:16:38,182 --> 00:16:45,782 Speaker 2: everybody knows by Chapel Roan. Pink ponyoink, Oh, she's fabulous, 336 00:16:45,822 --> 00:16:50,182 Speaker 2: hot takay asking you okay, enough, we got it. I 337 00:16:50,182 --> 00:16:52,702 Speaker 2: think the audience have got it from me. It's excellent rendition. 338 00:16:53,142 --> 00:16:57,942 Speaker 2: She's extremely talented, extremely famous. Her breakout album, which was 339 00:16:58,022 --> 00:17:00,702 Speaker 2: called The Rise and Fall of a Midwest Princess, was 340 00:17:00,742 --> 00:17:04,381 Speaker 2: all about leaving behind a suburban, small town life. So 341 00:17:04,502 --> 00:17:07,661 Speaker 2: she did that, and now the Internet is very upset 342 00:17:07,702 --> 00:17:09,621 Speaker 2: with her for suggesting that her friends who did and 343 00:17:10,142 --> 00:17:12,942 Speaker 2: who are now wiping thosees and bombs in their suburban homes, 344 00:17:13,262 --> 00:17:16,621 Speaker 2: have no lights in their eyes. This next little grab 345 00:17:16,702 --> 00:17:19,461 Speaker 2: is typical of the reaction of Chapel fans who felt 346 00:17:19,462 --> 00:17:22,502 Speaker 2: burned by her comments on one of the world's biggest podcasts. 347 00:17:22,661 --> 00:17:23,421 Speaker 1: I love Chapel. 348 00:17:23,462 --> 00:17:25,022 Speaker 4: It's lit, a bit of a sting, I'm not gonna 349 00:17:25,061 --> 00:17:28,542 Speaker 4: lie and low key. It's misogynistic as hell. It really 350 00:17:28,542 --> 00:17:31,581 Speaker 4: devalues the role of motherhood, and it really shows and 351 00:17:31,661 --> 00:17:34,101 Speaker 4: proves that when it comes to mothers, no one wants 352 00:17:34,141 --> 00:17:36,382 Speaker 4: to listen to us when we're talking about the good parts. 353 00:17:36,462 --> 00:17:38,742 Speaker 2: Jesse, you have young kids, Can I please check whether 354 00:17:38,821 --> 00:17:40,622 Speaker 2: or not you have light in your eyes? 355 00:17:41,341 --> 00:17:42,941 Speaker 3: Look? I do have light in my eyes. And I 356 00:17:43,022 --> 00:17:46,542 Speaker 3: will defend Chapel here because I totally understand how she 357 00:17:46,621 --> 00:17:49,101 Speaker 3: got that impression. I used to say this, that the 358 00:17:49,141 --> 00:17:52,702 Speaker 3: impression I had, I felt it. This sense I had 359 00:17:52,901 --> 00:17:56,101 Speaker 3: that people who had children weren't happy haunted me my 360 00:17:56,302 --> 00:17:59,341 Speaker 3: entire pregnancy, like it terrified me. But in her defense 361 00:17:59,381 --> 00:18:01,862 Speaker 3: as well, she doesn't say mothers, she says parents. At 362 00:18:01,861 --> 00:18:03,981 Speaker 3: no point does she generate. She says, I don't know 363 00:18:04,022 --> 00:18:08,902 Speaker 3: anyone with kids. But in her defense, motherhood from the 364 00:18:08,982 --> 00:18:14,501 Speaker 3: outside looks terrible. And I don't think it is a 365 00:18:14,581 --> 00:18:20,422 Speaker 3: coincidence that the rise of social media and sharing what 366 00:18:20,422 --> 00:18:23,341 Speaker 3: motherhood looks like has dovetailed with a decline in birth rates. 367 00:18:23,381 --> 00:18:25,061 Speaker 3: I think that they have something to do with each other. 368 00:18:25,742 --> 00:18:31,181 Speaker 3: Parenting looks like mess and chaos and snot and changing 369 00:18:31,262 --> 00:18:35,581 Speaker 3: nappies and all of those things which the thing you 370 00:18:35,742 --> 00:18:41,661 Speaker 3: can't see and you can't touch is how much that 371 00:18:41,861 --> 00:18:46,221 Speaker 3: parent loves their kid, and parents don't feel the need 372 00:18:46,621 --> 00:18:49,821 Speaker 3: to preface every time they speak about parenting with that 373 00:18:49,901 --> 00:18:54,341 Speaker 3: fact because to other parents it's just widely understood. And 374 00:18:54,381 --> 00:18:56,581 Speaker 3: this is I mean, it's the issue with social media 375 00:18:56,782 --> 00:19:00,381 Speaker 3: is that it erases all context. And we were asked 376 00:19:00,381 --> 00:19:02,702 Speaker 3: at this Apple event that we did on Friday about 377 00:19:02,742 --> 00:19:05,222 Speaker 3: some of the hardest things to talk about on this show, 378 00:19:05,782 --> 00:19:08,261 Speaker 3: and top of my list is motherhood. And the reason 379 00:19:08,302 --> 00:19:12,581 Speaker 3: for that is that if I say motherhood is the 380 00:19:12,621 --> 00:19:15,061 Speaker 3: best thing I've ever done and I've never felt happier, 381 00:19:15,782 --> 00:19:20,302 Speaker 3: then I've just upset a woman who's having a really 382 00:19:20,341 --> 00:19:25,502 Speaker 3: shit day with kids and fertile yes. Or if I 383 00:19:25,542 --> 00:19:27,302 Speaker 3: sit here and I go it's actually really hard and 384 00:19:27,302 --> 00:19:30,061 Speaker 3: I'm struggling, well, then you know, I might as well 385 00:19:30,101 --> 00:19:31,782 Speaker 3: punch in the face the woman who's been trying for 386 00:19:31,782 --> 00:19:35,982 Speaker 3: two years. Like, the discussion of parenthood is so dependent 387 00:19:36,061 --> 00:19:38,502 Speaker 3: on context, and that's why the conversations that you have 388 00:19:38,581 --> 00:19:40,821 Speaker 3: with your mother's group are nothing like the conversations you 389 00:19:40,821 --> 00:19:42,621 Speaker 3: have with your friends that aren't parents, are nothing like 390 00:19:42,661 --> 00:19:45,582 Speaker 3: the conversations that you know you have at work. And 391 00:19:45,782 --> 00:19:49,022 Speaker 3: look for what it's worth, Chapel since I have had 392 00:19:49,022 --> 00:19:52,502 Speaker 3: a child. It is the happiest that I've ever been. 393 00:19:52,621 --> 00:19:54,022 Speaker 1: I've seen more light in your eyes. 394 00:19:54,262 --> 00:19:57,182 Speaker 3: I didn't think like my weekend was best. 395 00:19:57,262 --> 00:19:59,022 Speaker 1: Light in your husband's more light in yours. 396 00:19:59,302 --> 00:20:03,661 Speaker 3: It's just tired. But playing in the rain at two pm, 397 00:20:04,222 --> 00:20:08,302 Speaker 3: or laughing in the bath, or dancing before you've even 398 00:20:08,341 --> 00:20:10,861 Speaker 3: had a coffee, like in your lounge room, all of 399 00:20:10,861 --> 00:20:13,182 Speaker 3: those things, they don't look good. There's no point. 400 00:20:13,341 --> 00:20:15,382 Speaker 2: They do look good, but if you posted them, you'd 401 00:20:15,381 --> 00:20:16,181 Speaker 2: be a smug bitch. 402 00:20:16,381 --> 00:20:18,981 Speaker 3: I'd be a smug bitch. But also it's like, you 403 00:20:19,022 --> 00:20:21,742 Speaker 3: don't love my kid, So yeah, I get why that's 404 00:20:21,821 --> 00:20:22,462 Speaker 3: so much fun. 405 00:20:22,542 --> 00:20:23,022 Speaker 1: That's true. 406 00:20:23,101 --> 00:20:25,621 Speaker 3: It's like if I explained my night, you know, Luca 407 00:20:25,661 --> 00:20:27,141 Speaker 3: and I went on a day, It's like that doesn't 408 00:20:27,182 --> 00:20:28,782 Speaker 3: look good to anyone else because they don't love Luca. 409 00:20:28,942 --> 00:20:31,621 Speaker 1: The irony here also or not an irony, But the 410 00:20:31,621 --> 00:20:36,341 Speaker 1: subtext is that in America, where chapel Ron lives, women 411 00:20:36,381 --> 00:20:39,141 Speaker 1: are being forced to have children that they don't necessarily 412 00:20:39,182 --> 00:20:43,461 Speaker 1: want because abortion is almost illegal in most states in 413 00:20:43,542 --> 00:20:46,542 Speaker 1: America now, so it's almost impossible to get an abortion 414 00:20:46,821 --> 00:20:49,622 Speaker 1: for many many women. So I always think that when 415 00:20:49,621 --> 00:20:53,581 Speaker 1: you say that the birth rate declining is coinciding with 416 00:20:53,942 --> 00:20:57,341 Speaker 1: us being more honest about having children. I think it's 417 00:20:57,742 --> 00:21:00,381 Speaker 1: so important, Like, since becoming a mother, I've felt more 418 00:21:00,422 --> 00:21:05,302 Speaker 1: strongly about abortion being accessible to women because it's hard, 419 00:21:05,782 --> 00:21:07,742 Speaker 1: and it's hard enough when you want to have kids. 420 00:21:07,742 --> 00:21:09,861 Speaker 1: If you don't want to have a child, and the 421 00:21:09,901 --> 00:21:13,341 Speaker 1: bloody government is forcing you to have a child that 422 00:21:13,381 --> 00:21:15,461 Speaker 1: you don't want to have, or you can't afford to have, 423 00:21:15,581 --> 00:21:18,781 Speaker 1: or that you are not equipped to raise, that's a 424 00:21:18,901 --> 00:21:21,381 Speaker 1: terrible situation, not just for you, but for that child. 425 00:21:21,422 --> 00:21:23,061 Speaker 2: I also, I mean, I know this isn't what this 426 00:21:23,101 --> 00:21:25,181 Speaker 2: conversation is about, but the idea about the decline in 427 00:21:25,222 --> 00:21:27,101 Speaker 2: birth rate and whether that's to do with the honesty, 428 00:21:27,341 --> 00:21:30,021 Speaker 2: it's more complicated than that. It's like, yeah, we're becoming 429 00:21:30,061 --> 00:21:32,822 Speaker 2: more educated, we're having careers, we've got a lot more choices. 430 00:21:32,901 --> 00:21:34,542 Speaker 2: Like there's a whole lot of things going on there. 431 00:21:34,581 --> 00:21:37,621 Speaker 2: It's not all about women crying on social media. And 432 00:21:37,661 --> 00:21:39,821 Speaker 2: she's not even talking about social media. She's talking about 433 00:21:39,821 --> 00:21:42,222 Speaker 2: people she knows and people she sees, and she does 434 00:21:42,262 --> 00:21:44,221 Speaker 2: see how difficult it is and it can be, and 435 00:21:44,262 --> 00:21:47,061 Speaker 2: I think that's very valid. We have this conversation a bit, 436 00:21:47,141 --> 00:21:49,381 Speaker 2: Jessie that you think that there's too much negativity on 437 00:21:49,422 --> 00:21:52,942 Speaker 2: social media about parenthood, And I think that that's interesting 438 00:21:53,022 --> 00:21:55,341 Speaker 2: because I think until about ten years ago, there was 439 00:21:55,422 --> 00:21:59,221 Speaker 2: only positivity about parenthood, and you were never allowed to 440 00:21:59,262 --> 00:22:01,942 Speaker 2: say that it was anything other than the greatest thing 441 00:22:01,942 --> 00:22:04,341 Speaker 2: that ever happened to you, the most important job you'll 442 00:22:04,341 --> 00:22:07,861 Speaker 2: ever have. You'd never known true love before, and it's 443 00:22:07,901 --> 00:22:11,901 Speaker 2: a much more complicated experience than that. Having a child 444 00:22:11,942 --> 00:22:15,901 Speaker 2: and being a parent is unbelievably complex, and so trying 445 00:22:15,901 --> 00:22:18,941 Speaker 2: to distill it down to a couple of palatable lines 446 00:22:18,942 --> 00:22:21,302 Speaker 2: on social media is impossible. I will always defend the 447 00:22:21,381 --> 00:22:23,661 Speaker 2: right of parents, mothers in particular, but all parents to 448 00:22:23,702 --> 00:22:26,101 Speaker 2: winge their heads off if they want to. But the 449 00:22:26,182 --> 00:22:28,101 Speaker 2: other thing I thought when I saw this is poor 450 00:22:28,182 --> 00:22:31,341 Speaker 2: Chapel Roone, right, is we're always winging that celebrities never 451 00:22:31,341 --> 00:22:34,181 Speaker 2: say anything interesting anymore, that they're too scared of backlash, 452 00:22:34,222 --> 00:22:36,861 Speaker 2: that they're too scared of getting canceled, that they all 453 00:22:36,901 --> 00:22:40,501 Speaker 2: just speak from these boring, you know, bland scripts, And 454 00:22:40,542 --> 00:22:42,621 Speaker 2: why hasn't their pr person told them not to say that? 455 00:22:42,661 --> 00:22:45,421 Speaker 2: And don't they know how good is it for someone 456 00:22:45,462 --> 00:22:47,381 Speaker 2: to just say what they think. You don't have to 457 00:22:47,462 --> 00:22:51,461 Speaker 2: agree with her. Every childless twenty seven year old person 458 00:22:51,542 --> 00:22:52,661 Speaker 2: thinks what chapel rone was. 459 00:22:52,782 --> 00:22:55,621 Speaker 3: I think she's she completely agree. 460 00:22:55,702 --> 00:22:57,581 Speaker 1: A lot of women came out and said that, yeah, 461 00:22:57,581 --> 00:23:00,702 Speaker 1: thanks articulating My fear isn't what I think. 462 00:23:00,821 --> 00:23:04,701 Speaker 3: I think it my capture as well, that mothers in 463 00:23:04,782 --> 00:23:08,821 Speaker 3: particular aren't really allowed to be complicated. You've got to 464 00:23:08,861 --> 00:23:11,462 Speaker 3: have a one note. If you've have binaries, it's binary. 465 00:23:11,861 --> 00:23:14,622 Speaker 3: And therefore, I mean, we all accept that you can 466 00:23:14,661 --> 00:23:16,342 Speaker 3: go on a Friday night and bitch about your job 467 00:23:16,341 --> 00:23:18,341 Speaker 3: and you don't hate your job. You know, you don't 468 00:23:18,462 --> 00:23:20,022 Speaker 3: regret your job, but. 469 00:23:20,022 --> 00:23:22,581 Speaker 1: Are your partner or your partners and you don't necessarily 470 00:23:22,581 --> 00:23:23,421 Speaker 1: need to leave them. 471 00:23:23,621 --> 00:23:26,622 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think as well, we're in this bind 472 00:23:27,222 --> 00:23:32,821 Speaker 3: where if you say that motherhood completed you or is 473 00:23:32,861 --> 00:23:36,462 Speaker 3: the greatest joy, then you're also playing to the far 474 00:23:36,581 --> 00:23:41,101 Speaker 3: right conservatives who think you're almost mocked as being not 475 00:23:41,262 --> 00:23:43,502 Speaker 3: very world at all of the patriarchy, yeah, or not 476 00:23:43,621 --> 00:23:47,182 Speaker 3: very aspirational, or are traded to women or something. 477 00:23:47,422 --> 00:23:47,622 Speaker 4: Yeah. 478 00:23:47,661 --> 00:23:50,581 Speaker 2: But also women who don't have children cop an enormous 479 00:23:50,621 --> 00:23:53,341 Speaker 2: amount of judgment. I think the other piece to that 480 00:23:53,542 --> 00:23:55,621 Speaker 2: is that the mums who are getting upset about this, 481 00:23:55,661 --> 00:23:58,461 Speaker 2: and I know it's not all mums, but women who 482 00:23:58,542 --> 00:24:01,381 Speaker 2: choose not to have children still now other women who 483 00:24:01,422 --> 00:24:04,141 Speaker 2: are seen as those strange, weirdo cat ladies. They are 484 00:24:04,182 --> 00:24:06,821 Speaker 2: the ones who are judged for their choices, called selfish, 485 00:24:07,141 --> 00:24:09,542 Speaker 2: you know, called like not very maternal, there's something wrong 486 00:24:09,621 --> 00:24:13,422 Speaker 2: with you. That is still a very strong existing stripe 487 00:24:13,462 --> 00:24:16,942 Speaker 2: in our culture. And so I worry about us kind 488 00:24:17,022 --> 00:24:20,101 Speaker 2: of saying nobody likes mums anymore. It's still held up 489 00:24:20,141 --> 00:24:22,581 Speaker 2: having children is still held up as the pinnacle of womanhood. 490 00:24:22,621 --> 00:24:26,302 Speaker 3: No question, do you think that parents are less happy 491 00:24:26,422 --> 00:24:27,222 Speaker 3: than non parents? 492 00:24:27,581 --> 00:24:31,341 Speaker 2: I think it's the wrong question to ask. It makes 493 00:24:31,341 --> 00:24:35,382 Speaker 2: me say when I hit, because statistically, apparently yes, right, 494 00:24:36,061 --> 00:24:40,422 Speaker 2: if that's so objective anxiety Statistically, they say fifty five 495 00:24:40,462 --> 00:24:42,661 Speaker 2: percent of mothers and thirty eight percent of fathers report 496 00:24:42,742 --> 00:24:46,262 Speaker 2: experiencing more anxiety symptoms since becoming parents. Two thirds of 497 00:24:46,302 --> 00:24:48,582 Speaker 2: parents experience guilt at least once a week. All these stats, 498 00:24:48,821 --> 00:24:50,821 Speaker 2: this is all true. But I think one of the 499 00:24:50,861 --> 00:24:53,862 Speaker 2: things that this whole who's happier thing just points out 500 00:24:53,861 --> 00:24:56,142 Speaker 2: what a ridiculous question is to ask, because no, are 501 00:24:56,141 --> 00:24:59,381 Speaker 2: you happy when you have literally had two hours sleep 502 00:24:59,381 --> 00:25:01,901 Speaker 2: because your child is sick and you're overwrought with worry 503 00:25:01,942 --> 00:25:03,622 Speaker 2: about what might be wrong with them, and you've still 504 00:25:03,621 --> 00:25:06,462 Speaker 2: got to go to work and pretend you're a functioning human. 505 00:25:06,462 --> 00:25:09,302 Speaker 2: But of course you're not happy. But that's not the point. 506 00:25:09,661 --> 00:25:13,022 Speaker 2: Life isn't just about skipping around all day singing how happy. 507 00:25:13,022 --> 00:25:14,502 Speaker 2: Well maybe it is if you're in the pink pony 508 00:25:14,901 --> 00:25:16,142 Speaker 2: I generally speaking, but. 509 00:25:16,262 --> 00:25:19,662 Speaker 3: I find that hard because people saying that, especially when 510 00:25:19,661 --> 00:25:22,341 Speaker 3: I was pregnant, I was super sensitive to it. It 511 00:25:22,462 --> 00:25:24,462 Speaker 3: feels like the culture is looking you in the eye 512 00:25:24,502 --> 00:25:26,621 Speaker 3: and going, you will be less happy last day. 513 00:25:26,901 --> 00:25:30,261 Speaker 1: But you nailed it before when you said complexity, like 514 00:25:30,901 --> 00:25:32,701 Speaker 1: before you have kids. It's like, I want to know 515 00:25:32,742 --> 00:25:35,502 Speaker 1: that it's all good. Tell me exactly what it's going 516 00:25:35,581 --> 00:25:37,502 Speaker 1: to be like. Tell me exactly am I going to 517 00:25:37,542 --> 00:25:40,462 Speaker 1: feel happier or less happy than I do now? You 518 00:25:40,542 --> 00:25:44,061 Speaker 1: can't always control everything, you know, like you look at 519 00:25:44,222 --> 00:25:47,222 Speaker 1: speaking of light in her eyes, there's not been a 520 00:25:47,262 --> 00:25:49,782 Speaker 1: lot of light in Chapel's eyes over the last few years, 521 00:25:49,821 --> 00:25:53,341 Speaker 1: and she's talked about dealing with fame, which looks pretty 522 00:25:53,341 --> 00:25:53,981 Speaker 1: great from me. 523 00:25:54,022 --> 00:25:55,302 Speaker 2: Everything I wanted. 524 00:25:55,222 --> 00:25:58,742 Speaker 1: Exactly, and what she's done, which I think has been fantastic, 525 00:25:59,302 --> 00:26:01,542 Speaker 1: has been to pull back the curtain on what fame is, 526 00:26:01,621 --> 00:26:03,982 Speaker 1: which is like people coming up to you, and even 527 00:26:03,982 --> 00:26:06,621 Speaker 1: if they're saying positive things, that that can be really intrusive. 528 00:26:06,702 --> 00:26:09,861 Speaker 1: And how destabilized she's been. And I don't know if 529 00:26:09,861 --> 00:26:12,261 Speaker 1: anyone's going to look at that and go, oh, famous 530 00:26:12,302 --> 00:26:14,621 Speaker 1: people are miserable. Therefore, I won't pursue my dream of 531 00:26:14,661 --> 00:26:17,502 Speaker 1: being a singer or an actor. I just think I. 532 00:26:18,101 --> 00:26:21,502 Speaker 3: Make the thing you can control, though if you go 533 00:26:21,581 --> 00:26:24,181 Speaker 3: parenting doesn't look happy. The thing you can control is 534 00:26:24,262 --> 00:26:26,821 Speaker 3: I won't have kids. Like I think that that is 535 00:26:26,821 --> 00:26:28,782 Speaker 3: a completely valid decision, and it's one that a lot 536 00:26:28,782 --> 00:26:30,302 Speaker 3: of people are making. But I know that there are 537 00:26:30,341 --> 00:26:32,821 Speaker 3: people and I know this because I was this. I 538 00:26:32,861 --> 00:26:35,782 Speaker 3: was looking at the two options, going one looks like, hell, 539 00:26:36,262 --> 00:26:37,262 Speaker 3: I know what I'm getting. 540 00:26:37,022 --> 00:26:39,542 Speaker 2: It, don't you also think? And I remember us having 541 00:26:39,581 --> 00:26:41,821 Speaker 2: a conversation about it. But there must be something good 542 00:26:41,821 --> 00:26:45,302 Speaker 2: about it, because all these bitches keep on doing it, Like, yeah, 543 00:26:45,381 --> 00:26:47,502 Speaker 2: I think if anything, it shows because what you just 544 00:26:47,621 --> 00:26:50,821 Speaker 2: described beautifully about your weekend and how you feel about 545 00:26:50,821 --> 00:26:54,022 Speaker 2: your child and all those things like happy isn't really 546 00:26:54,061 --> 00:26:57,061 Speaker 2: the world Like, I think it's so much more complicated 547 00:26:57,182 --> 00:26:58,981 Speaker 2: what being a parent does for you. I think that 548 00:26:59,101 --> 00:27:02,382 Speaker 2: at the core of it, the idea of like who's happier. 549 00:27:02,542 --> 00:27:04,581 Speaker 2: It's like I could be happy on a Tuesday and 550 00:27:04,702 --> 00:27:06,942 Speaker 2: not happy on a Thursday. It's not the important thing. 551 00:27:09,621 --> 00:27:12,262 Speaker 2: Back as a gift from both the perspective of a 552 00:27:12,302 --> 00:27:14,022 Speaker 2: giver as well as the recipient. 553 00:27:15,742 --> 00:27:19,182 Speaker 1: I have feedback for anyone thinking about defacing the electoral 554 00:27:19,182 --> 00:27:20,702 Speaker 1: signs that have popped up everywhere. 555 00:27:20,942 --> 00:27:24,182 Speaker 3: And there's one like on my house share a wall 556 00:27:24,581 --> 00:27:27,141 Speaker 3: in an house. I noticed that, and I'm like, I 557 00:27:27,182 --> 00:27:29,662 Speaker 3: don't mind, Like I don't mind the person that's on there, 558 00:27:29,661 --> 00:27:31,302 Speaker 3: but I'm like, oh, how do I feel about having 559 00:27:31,302 --> 00:27:31,982 Speaker 3: a political son? 560 00:27:32,022 --> 00:27:34,662 Speaker 1: I'm interested out louders tell us if you've got them 561 00:27:34,661 --> 00:27:36,901 Speaker 1: in your house? Do you get paid? Do people approach you? 562 00:27:36,942 --> 00:27:37,581 Speaker 2: Do you get paid? 563 00:27:37,661 --> 00:27:38,061 Speaker 4: You know what? 564 00:27:38,222 --> 00:27:40,581 Speaker 2: The candidates ask you to do it as a voluntary 565 00:27:40,661 --> 00:27:43,302 Speaker 2: side of support. So like if they're saying put up 566 00:27:43,302 --> 00:27:45,101 Speaker 2: a core flute, they're called up. They put up a 567 00:27:45,101 --> 00:27:46,941 Speaker 2: core flute, put up a poster. It's a way of saying, no, 568 00:27:47,022 --> 00:27:47,702 Speaker 2: you don't get paid. 569 00:27:47,742 --> 00:27:49,502 Speaker 3: Oh, I have to tell you something about this, may or. 570 00:27:49,502 --> 00:27:52,022 Speaker 3: I haven't told you yet. A legraspender is in our 571 00:27:52,462 --> 00:27:54,941 Speaker 3: electorate and we dependent yep, we keep going past her 572 00:27:54,982 --> 00:27:58,942 Speaker 3: poster Nana. Every time Lena sees it she yells Nana. 573 00:27:59,141 --> 00:28:01,061 Speaker 3: So apparently she's a doppleganger. 574 00:28:00,542 --> 00:28:05,661 Speaker 1: Nana for I hate that. Well, back to defacing electoral signs. 575 00:28:05,702 --> 00:28:08,302 Speaker 1: Three fancy women in a fancy Sydney suburb got some 576 00:28:08,502 --> 00:28:13,302 Speaker 1: accidentally hilarioious karmic retribution last week when they were on 577 00:28:13,341 --> 00:28:15,901 Speaker 1: their way back I think from lunch, and they use 578 00:28:15,982 --> 00:28:19,021 Speaker 1: their lipsticks to draw a pig nose and ears as 579 00:28:19,022 --> 00:28:21,621 Speaker 1: well as the word pig helpfully on a poster of 580 00:28:21,661 --> 00:28:25,262 Speaker 1: Independent member Zarie Stegel. And they actually landed on the 581 00:28:25,302 --> 00:28:27,782 Speaker 1: news after someone posted a video of it in a 582 00:28:27,821 --> 00:28:30,542 Speaker 1: local Facebook group. Have a listen to this. Three women 583 00:28:30,661 --> 00:28:34,302 Speaker 1: walking along Comedy Street have been caught using lipstick to 584 00:28:34,381 --> 00:28:38,062 Speaker 1: draw pigi is on a poster promoting til MP Zarie Stegel. 585 00:28:40,622 --> 00:28:45,021 Speaker 4: Why'd you let me go that it? 586 00:28:45,661 --> 00:28:50,742 Speaker 1: Why do you let me do it? It does piggy gets. 587 00:28:50,502 --> 00:28:53,142 Speaker 2: On a nose? Oh my god, I thought this was satire. 588 00:28:53,342 --> 00:28:55,982 Speaker 1: No, it actually happened and I've noticed quite a few. 589 00:28:56,022 --> 00:28:58,062 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know how people can be bothered, honestly, 590 00:28:58,142 --> 00:29:00,302 Speaker 1: but can we just not do that? And maybe if 591 00:29:00,302 --> 00:29:01,582 Speaker 1: you are going to do it, check that you're not 592 00:29:01,661 --> 00:29:02,862 Speaker 1: using your fancy lipstick. 593 00:29:03,022 --> 00:29:04,422 Speaker 2: They fifty dollars each. 594 00:29:04,822 --> 00:29:07,262 Speaker 3: I will have that Chanel lipstick din't mean to do 595 00:29:07,422 --> 00:29:10,542 Speaker 3: there's a cheese karma. After the break the energy chart, 596 00:29:10,622 --> 00:29:14,062 Speaker 3: Zoe foster Blake shared that I cannot stop thinking about. 597 00:29:14,262 --> 00:29:17,982 Speaker 2: One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday 598 00:29:18,022 --> 00:29:22,102 Speaker 2: and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link 599 00:29:22,102 --> 00:29:23,862 Speaker 2: at the show notes to get us in your ears 600 00:29:24,142 --> 00:29:26,862 Speaker 2: five days a week. And a huge thank you to 601 00:29:27,062 --> 00:29:34,022 Speaker 2: all our current subscribers. 602 00:29:35,902 --> 00:29:38,182 Speaker 3: I don't often pitch a story that starts with I 603 00:29:38,222 --> 00:29:41,342 Speaker 3: saw a chart that blew my mind. I think chart 604 00:29:41,462 --> 00:29:43,542 Speaker 3: might be one of the words that you're allergic to 605 00:29:43,582 --> 00:29:46,582 Speaker 3: me grigod. But let me explain how this Zoe foster 606 00:29:46,622 --> 00:29:49,822 Speaker 3: Blake chart that she shared a few days ago changed 607 00:29:50,142 --> 00:29:54,221 Speaker 3: totally how I think about energy. So foster Blake, founder 608 00:29:54,262 --> 00:29:57,302 Speaker 3: of Go to Skincare, author, does lots of things. She 609 00:29:57,462 --> 00:30:01,702 Speaker 3: has been living with quite chronic pain. So speaking of parenting, 610 00:30:01,902 --> 00:30:07,022 Speaker 3: looking shit sometimes since having kids, she's experienced severe debilitating people. 611 00:30:07,182 --> 00:30:09,181 Speaker 2: I remember her talking about that after she had a 612 00:30:09,182 --> 00:30:11,782 Speaker 2: second child. Yeah, she was still around. 613 00:30:11,822 --> 00:30:13,902 Speaker 1: She was on crutches by the end of that pregnancy. Yep. 614 00:30:14,422 --> 00:30:17,022 Speaker 3: And as is the case with pain, some days or 615 00:30:17,062 --> 00:30:19,421 Speaker 3: worse than others. And I think we've all had the 616 00:30:19,462 --> 00:30:21,782 Speaker 3: experience of sitting on the couch at the end of 617 00:30:21,862 --> 00:30:25,062 Speaker 3: the day and thinking, why am I so tired? I've 618 00:30:25,102 --> 00:30:27,701 Speaker 3: had enough sleep. I haven't run a marathon, but I 619 00:30:27,702 --> 00:30:30,022 Speaker 3: feel like I have, which brings me to the chart. 620 00:30:30,422 --> 00:30:33,222 Speaker 3: So there's a scale of one to ten. We've put 621 00:30:33,222 --> 00:30:35,182 Speaker 3: this up on the mummey outloud instagram so you can 622 00:30:35,222 --> 00:30:38,702 Speaker 3: see it. But the first column relatively obvious. It's physical, 623 00:30:39,062 --> 00:30:43,902 Speaker 3: so ten out of ten energy exertion is running aerobic activity, 624 00:30:44,142 --> 00:30:46,742 Speaker 3: something that gets your heart rate right up. A five 625 00:30:46,902 --> 00:30:49,982 Speaker 3: is like mowing the lawn. Four is doing housework. 626 00:30:50,222 --> 00:30:51,302 Speaker 1: So this is the physical. 627 00:30:51,582 --> 00:30:55,422 Speaker 3: This is the physical column. What we're less likely to understand. 628 00:30:55,462 --> 00:30:59,182 Speaker 3: I have never really considered is the sliding scale of 629 00:30:59,502 --> 00:31:03,461 Speaker 3: the cognitive load and what's referred to as the social, emotional, 630 00:31:03,622 --> 00:31:07,421 Speaker 3: spiritual load. So to be clear, this chart was developed 631 00:31:07,422 --> 00:31:11,062 Speaker 3: by a doctor. It's incredibly legit. But just as running 632 00:31:11,102 --> 00:31:14,741 Speaker 3: requires ten out of ten energy exertion, so does a 633 00:31:14,782 --> 00:31:21,502 Speaker 3: cognitive task like major decision making or detailed calculations, reading 634 00:31:21,542 --> 00:31:24,822 Speaker 3: a report that is complex nine out of ten. Paying 635 00:31:24,822 --> 00:31:29,062 Speaker 3: attention to the TV that's a five. Most interesting I 636 00:31:29,142 --> 00:31:31,742 Speaker 3: reckon is the social one, so ten out of ten 637 00:31:31,902 --> 00:31:35,742 Speaker 3: energy demand is socializing with six or more people. So 638 00:31:35,822 --> 00:31:38,102 Speaker 3: if you're in a situation, even if you're doing a speech, 639 00:31:38,262 --> 00:31:40,661 Speaker 3: if you're a teacher in front of a classroom, taking 640 00:31:40,661 --> 00:31:45,182 Speaker 3: on the energy of those people enormous load energetically, are 641 00:31:45,182 --> 00:31:45,862 Speaker 3: you able. 642 00:31:45,622 --> 00:31:48,582 Speaker 1: To measure that because you know how you say you 643 00:31:48,582 --> 00:31:51,902 Speaker 1: know burns energy like the old pilance is like burning 644 00:31:51,982 --> 00:31:55,662 Speaker 1: calories or killer jewels. It doesn't actually burn in that, No, 645 00:31:55,982 --> 00:32:00,622 Speaker 1: because only physical activity burnsing heart all day. 646 00:32:00,742 --> 00:32:02,022 Speaker 2: That's going to do that. 647 00:32:02,302 --> 00:32:05,742 Speaker 3: Yes, but this was developed but it's the equivalent, Yes, 648 00:32:05,902 --> 00:32:08,982 Speaker 3: by a doctor who was actually studying long COVID and 649 00:32:09,062 --> 00:32:11,422 Speaker 3: he's done it to research into it, and he's got 650 00:32:11,422 --> 00:32:14,422 Speaker 3: this energy points chart. And the idea is that if 651 00:32:14,462 --> 00:32:17,181 Speaker 3: you have like a post viral illness and your energy 652 00:32:17,222 --> 00:32:19,622 Speaker 3: is totally depleted, what they want you to do is 653 00:32:19,742 --> 00:32:21,622 Speaker 3: tally up your points by the end of the day 654 00:32:22,022 --> 00:32:24,782 Speaker 3: and then work out what you're spending. 655 00:32:24,902 --> 00:32:27,822 Speaker 1: So people in the disability community often refer to this 656 00:32:27,862 --> 00:32:30,502 Speaker 1: as spoons. How many spoons you have? Yes, there are 657 00:32:30,502 --> 00:32:33,462 Speaker 1: a few years when my partner had chronic critique syndrome, 658 00:32:33,542 --> 00:32:36,022 Speaker 1: and what people thought is, oh, you just need to sleep. 659 00:32:36,142 --> 00:32:40,382 Speaker 1: But it's like social activity, even sensory active music. Listening 660 00:32:40,382 --> 00:32:43,862 Speaker 1: to music would completely exhaust him and deplete him. 661 00:32:43,902 --> 00:32:46,742 Speaker 3: I found driving really interesting. So driving not only has 662 00:32:46,742 --> 00:32:49,102 Speaker 3: a physical load, but it also has a cognitive load. 663 00:32:49,302 --> 00:32:52,102 Speaker 3: And there's a difference in the energetic output of driving 664 00:32:52,142 --> 00:32:55,422 Speaker 3: a familiar root and an unfamiliar root. So things like that, right, 665 00:32:55,542 --> 00:32:59,862 Speaker 3: so anger eight out of ten, anxiety six out of ten. 666 00:33:00,062 --> 00:33:05,981 Speaker 3: So even these emotional kind of experiences have an energetic load. Holly, 667 00:33:06,582 --> 00:33:08,302 Speaker 3: does this surprise you like it surprises me? 668 00:33:08,502 --> 00:33:11,302 Speaker 2: Yes, very much. Well, I should preface that, like me 669 00:33:11,462 --> 00:33:13,862 Speaker 2: or I have people in my life who have post 670 00:33:13,982 --> 00:33:18,902 Speaker 2: viral issues, and no question that I've realized through them 671 00:33:19,182 --> 00:33:21,782 Speaker 2: the energy expended by things like you, Mia, I'd be like, well, 672 00:33:21,782 --> 00:33:23,782 Speaker 2: sit down and read a book. It's like, no, that's 673 00:33:23,942 --> 00:33:25,262 Speaker 2: not that I would say that, Yeah, you know what 674 00:33:25,302 --> 00:33:27,342 Speaker 2: I mean. I would think of that as a RESTful thing, 675 00:33:27,542 --> 00:33:29,862 Speaker 2: or oh, well, your job isn't very physical, so surely 676 00:33:29,902 --> 00:33:31,622 Speaker 2: you can do your job. You know, any kind of 677 00:33:31,622 --> 00:33:33,742 Speaker 2: preconceptions I might have had about that kind of stuff 678 00:33:33,742 --> 00:33:36,781 Speaker 2: about energy I've had, I've been re educated, and this 679 00:33:37,062 --> 00:33:40,862 Speaker 2: hopefully might be One of the positive things about long 680 00:33:40,902 --> 00:33:43,822 Speaker 2: COVID studies is that it's become a bit more mainstream. 681 00:33:44,142 --> 00:33:46,542 Speaker 2: One of the things that's interesting about this though, when 682 00:33:46,542 --> 00:33:48,182 Speaker 2: you take it out of that context and just sort 683 00:33:48,182 --> 00:33:50,701 Speaker 2: of put it in a more mainstream context of it 684 00:33:50,742 --> 00:33:53,222 Speaker 2: explains why you're so exhausted after you've had a big 685 00:33:53,262 --> 00:33:55,782 Speaker 2: conflict with somebody, if you've had a big argument with somebody, 686 00:33:56,302 --> 00:34:00,021 Speaker 2: it explains why you're so exhausted after I mean, and 687 00:34:00,262 --> 00:34:02,222 Speaker 2: obviously this must be different for different kinds of people, 688 00:34:02,262 --> 00:34:06,262 Speaker 2: but so exhausted often after a big social event, you know, 689 00:34:06,302 --> 00:34:08,662 Speaker 2: a wedding. Yeah, it's not necessarily that you've been dancing 690 00:34:08,661 --> 00:34:10,701 Speaker 2: all night, but it's just that exertion. 691 00:34:10,502 --> 00:34:13,262 Speaker 1: Even small talk, yes, particularly. 692 00:34:13,302 --> 00:34:17,022 Speaker 2: And then the interesting thing too is that often exhaustion 693 00:34:17,182 --> 00:34:20,382 Speaker 2: from physical exertion is satisfying. You know how good it 694 00:34:20,422 --> 00:34:24,062 Speaker 2: feels sometimes to feel exhausted because in your body run 695 00:34:24,142 --> 00:34:26,142 Speaker 2: a long way or done something that you really wanted 696 00:34:26,181 --> 00:34:29,302 Speaker 2: to do. It actually feels good. But mental exhaustion doesn't 697 00:34:29,302 --> 00:34:31,622 Speaker 2: feel good, like it never feels good. Does it to 698 00:34:31,661 --> 00:34:33,142 Speaker 2: be absolutely mentally depleted. 699 00:34:33,221 --> 00:34:36,181 Speaker 1: It feels like a dirtier form of tired. This very 700 00:34:36,261 --> 00:34:40,062 Speaker 1: much correlates with that interview I did with the author 701 00:34:40,382 --> 00:34:43,701 Speaker 1: of the Seven Different Types of Rest and when they 702 00:34:43,701 --> 00:34:46,301 Speaker 1: were talking about, as you say, most of us think, 703 00:34:46,382 --> 00:34:48,701 Speaker 1: if we're tired, you need more sleep. But sleep is 704 00:34:48,741 --> 00:34:52,582 Speaker 1: only one type of rest, as you say, cognitive, emotional, mental, 705 00:34:53,261 --> 00:34:55,741 Speaker 1: there's a new one that people are talking about, and 706 00:34:55,781 --> 00:34:59,262 Speaker 1: that is political rest and the need for political rest. 707 00:34:59,902 --> 00:35:02,181 Speaker 1: That's exactly what it sounds like. It's rest from the 708 00:35:02,221 --> 00:35:02,862 Speaker 1: news cycle. 709 00:35:03,022 --> 00:35:05,262 Speaker 3: I wonder if that's so. If we imagine that anger 710 00:35:05,261 --> 00:35:07,901 Speaker 3: slash frustration is an eight out of ten, if that's 711 00:35:07,942 --> 00:35:12,221 Speaker 3: the emotion it's eliciting you engaging with something political, then 712 00:35:12,261 --> 00:35:16,421 Speaker 3: that must be so taxing on the body to constantly be. 713 00:35:16,822 --> 00:35:19,382 Speaker 1: It is at this level, and those kind of stories 714 00:35:19,462 --> 00:35:22,261 Speaker 1: keep you in fight or flight, which is designed to 715 00:35:22,302 --> 00:35:25,661 Speaker 1: be a biological response that's very temporary that you either 716 00:35:25,741 --> 00:35:28,102 Speaker 1: fight or you have this surge of energies that you 717 00:35:28,102 --> 00:35:31,022 Speaker 1: can either fight or you can flee, and because the 718 00:35:31,022 --> 00:35:35,181 Speaker 1: news cycle, particularly recently and over the last couple of years, 719 00:35:35,302 --> 00:35:40,181 Speaker 1: has been so intense and so unrelenting. It's kept us 720 00:35:40,221 --> 00:35:42,582 Speaker 1: in that state. If you've consumed a lot of it 721 00:35:43,062 --> 00:35:46,422 Speaker 1: and you can't think clearly, you know you're completely physically 722 00:35:46,422 --> 00:35:47,181 Speaker 1: depleted by it. 723 00:35:47,462 --> 00:35:50,181 Speaker 3: We also have a lot more grace for ourselves when 724 00:35:50,181 --> 00:35:52,142 Speaker 3: it comes to the physical So if you were to 725 00:35:52,261 --> 00:35:55,142 Speaker 3: run a marathon, you would expect that you're going to 726 00:35:55,181 --> 00:35:57,502 Speaker 3: have sore muscles and probably have a few rest days, 727 00:35:57,902 --> 00:36:01,661 Speaker 3: whereas teachers at the end of a term, or students 728 00:36:01,661 --> 00:36:02,741 Speaker 3: at the end of the students at. 729 00:36:02,701 --> 00:36:03,221 Speaker 1: The end of the time. 730 00:36:03,942 --> 00:36:06,301 Speaker 3: I did something recently, I did a keynote, or where 731 00:36:06,342 --> 00:36:08,062 Speaker 3: I spoke to a room of people, or we do 732 00:36:08,142 --> 00:36:11,821 Speaker 3: live shows, I have previously given myself no grace and 733 00:36:11,862 --> 00:36:14,661 Speaker 3: not understood why the next day I might have a headache, 734 00:36:14,862 --> 00:36:17,941 Speaker 3: I might feel grizzily, I might feel negative. 735 00:36:17,582 --> 00:36:20,022 Speaker 1: Even if the actual event or whatever it was only 736 00:36:20,022 --> 00:36:21,622 Speaker 1: went for forty minutes or twenty minutes. 737 00:36:21,661 --> 00:36:22,102 Speaker 3: Yeah. 738 00:36:22,142 --> 00:36:25,462 Speaker 2: I think that's also partly because we attach a lot 739 00:36:25,462 --> 00:36:28,022 Speaker 2: of virtue to having a lot of energy and what 740 00:36:28,062 --> 00:36:30,062 Speaker 2: we would describe as a big work ethic. Right, So 741 00:36:30,542 --> 00:36:33,622 Speaker 2: that's one thing that's interesting about this is that I 742 00:36:33,822 --> 00:36:36,182 Speaker 2: and I know this probably is particularly in me because 743 00:36:36,382 --> 00:36:38,942 Speaker 2: of my upbringing, and I'm sure yours too, Jesse. Actually 744 00:36:39,022 --> 00:36:42,462 Speaker 2: is that winging that you're tired is like not a 745 00:36:42,502 --> 00:36:44,462 Speaker 2: thing like we don't do that. We don't winge it. 746 00:36:44,462 --> 00:36:45,861 Speaker 2: We're tired, we get up, we get on with it, 747 00:36:45,902 --> 00:36:48,181 Speaker 2: you know what I mean. And so there's almost a 748 00:36:48,221 --> 00:36:51,022 Speaker 2: prejudice about that. So when somebody would say I'm going 749 00:36:51,102 --> 00:36:53,462 Speaker 2: to need a quiet day tomorrow because today I've got 750 00:36:53,462 --> 00:36:57,301 Speaker 2: a big presentation, you'd have an internal eye roll right 751 00:36:57,342 --> 00:36:59,822 Speaker 2: and be like, Oh, it's not You're not fighting fires. 752 00:36:59,862 --> 00:37:03,142 Speaker 2: You're not You're not doing something, not holding the heisman, 753 00:37:03,221 --> 00:37:05,861 Speaker 2: you're not holding the hose mate exactly. And I think 754 00:37:05,902 --> 00:37:10,221 Speaker 2: we're beginning to understand that better. But I wonder what 755 00:37:10,261 --> 00:37:12,542 Speaker 2: we do with it in practice, because me and we 756 00:37:12,622 --> 00:37:14,822 Speaker 2: often talk about like, oh, she's got a big engine, 757 00:37:14,902 --> 00:37:18,062 Speaker 2: Like we'll say that in terms of how much energy 758 00:37:18,142 --> 00:37:22,102 Speaker 2: we think people can put into work, parenting, life, whatever 759 00:37:22,102 --> 00:37:22,381 Speaker 2: it is. 760 00:37:22,502 --> 00:37:25,221 Speaker 1: I think something else that we should acknowledge is the 761 00:37:25,382 --> 00:37:31,461 Speaker 1: cost energetically of financial insecurity, being worried about money, being 762 00:37:31,502 --> 00:37:34,822 Speaker 1: worried about you know, things like custody of your children, 763 00:37:34,942 --> 00:37:36,421 Speaker 1: or the health of your children. 764 00:37:36,142 --> 00:37:38,142 Speaker 3: And interesting that calculations. 765 00:37:37,622 --> 00:37:40,861 Speaker 1: Or parents, you know, all of those things. I think 766 00:37:40,902 --> 00:37:45,542 Speaker 1: something that's incredibly taxing is worrying about things we don't 767 00:37:45,542 --> 00:37:48,982 Speaker 1: have control over and that might or might not happen. 768 00:37:49,181 --> 00:37:51,622 Speaker 1: And so sometimes you think, oh, anxiety, do you have anxiety? 769 00:37:51,661 --> 00:37:54,661 Speaker 1: It's like worrying. I thought that was really really interesting. 770 00:37:54,942 --> 00:37:57,741 Speaker 1: Being in pain is absolutely exhausting. 771 00:37:57,822 --> 00:38:01,461 Speaker 3: I think too that what I talk depressed. If you're 772 00:38:02,102 --> 00:38:04,221 Speaker 3: and I know this feeling of sort of if you're 773 00:38:04,261 --> 00:38:06,502 Speaker 3: feeling depressed and you go I cannot even get up 774 00:38:06,542 --> 00:38:09,022 Speaker 3: and go to the bathroom, that actually does exert energy. 775 00:38:09,062 --> 00:38:11,582 Speaker 3: That's on the chart, right, like something as small as that. 776 00:38:12,142 --> 00:38:14,462 Speaker 3: But if you're sick and you're trying to recover, if 777 00:38:14,502 --> 00:38:16,062 Speaker 3: you're in pain, you're trying to manage it, if you're 778 00:38:16,062 --> 00:38:18,142 Speaker 3: trying to manage your stress. I think this is so 779 00:38:18,502 --> 00:38:21,942 Speaker 3: useful at going social media use is a five out 780 00:38:21,982 --> 00:38:25,502 Speaker 3: of ten that isn't rest like it's not and that's 781 00:38:25,542 --> 00:38:26,261 Speaker 3: so true. 782 00:38:26,302 --> 00:38:29,301 Speaker 1: What so many of us do to relax or to 783 00:38:29,422 --> 00:38:32,102 Speaker 1: just switch off, to zone out or numb ourselves is 784 00:38:32,142 --> 00:38:34,542 Speaker 1: pick up our phones. I know I do, And you're right, 785 00:38:34,902 --> 00:38:37,341 Speaker 1: you can end up you don't feel rested, whereas I've 786 00:38:37,382 --> 00:38:40,462 Speaker 1: started reaching for a book because that's a little bit 787 00:38:40,462 --> 00:38:41,102 Speaker 1: more feels. 788 00:38:41,302 --> 00:38:43,382 Speaker 3: And it depends on what book apparently, like if a 789 00:38:43,462 --> 00:38:46,422 Speaker 3: really complicated book or a report that you're reading. 790 00:38:46,221 --> 00:38:47,302 Speaker 1: For work, totally different. 791 00:38:47,781 --> 00:38:49,542 Speaker 3: But the last thing I read here, when I went 792 00:38:49,582 --> 00:38:51,062 Speaker 3: really deep on this chart and I read what the 793 00:38:51,102 --> 00:38:53,821 Speaker 3: doctor said, it said, remember that your symptoms can be 794 00:38:53,902 --> 00:38:56,941 Speaker 3: delayed for up to three days. So interestingly, you can 795 00:38:56,982 --> 00:38:59,502 Speaker 3: do something that's really taxing on a Wednesday and it's 796 00:38:59,502 --> 00:39:01,942 Speaker 3: not till Saturday that you feel the crash. And I 797 00:39:01,982 --> 00:39:04,341 Speaker 3: was like, oh, that actually makes a lot of sense. 798 00:39:04,342 --> 00:39:06,502 Speaker 2: It also explains why sometimes you just want to watch 799 00:39:06,542 --> 00:39:10,661 Speaker 2: and consume really bland things. Yeah, when I'm really exhausted. 800 00:39:10,942 --> 00:39:12,182 Speaker 2: And I was a bit like this on the weekend 801 00:39:12,221 --> 00:39:13,942 Speaker 2: because we've had a big week last week, all of us, 802 00:39:13,982 --> 00:39:16,862 Speaker 2: and then on Saturday at I do want to disconnect. 803 00:39:16,942 --> 00:39:17,942 Speaker 1: That's when I go quiet. 804 00:39:18,582 --> 00:39:22,302 Speaker 2: But also I only can consume like really bland things, 805 00:39:22,302 --> 00:39:25,902 Speaker 2: bad television. Yeah, I don't have to think about, you know, anything, 806 00:39:25,942 --> 00:39:28,582 Speaker 2: that's just really easy. And I always thought I was 807 00:39:28,661 --> 00:39:31,382 Speaker 2: being a bit lowbrow or something, or I'm really letting 808 00:39:31,382 --> 00:39:34,381 Speaker 2: my brain down. But apparently I'm preserving energy and it's 809 00:39:34,382 --> 00:39:35,422 Speaker 2: a virtuous thing to do. 810 00:39:37,302 --> 00:39:39,702 Speaker 1: I don't know, as I'm getting older, if I'm getting 811 00:39:40,462 --> 00:39:43,261 Speaker 1: just more conscious of it and better at recognizing it, 812 00:39:43,862 --> 00:39:48,781 Speaker 1: or whether my levels of energy are actually depleting. I mean, 813 00:39:48,822 --> 00:39:51,582 Speaker 1: I know, the introverts when they're placed in social situations. 814 00:39:51,661 --> 00:39:53,422 Speaker 1: I think a lot of the reason people are resisting 815 00:39:53,582 --> 00:39:56,022 Speaker 1: return to work if they've been working from home is 816 00:39:56,062 --> 00:40:00,062 Speaker 1: because being around people, whether you're on a train or 817 00:40:00,102 --> 00:40:02,062 Speaker 1: whether you're in an office and having to talk to 818 00:40:02,102 --> 00:40:03,462 Speaker 1: them and makes more talk in the lift, in the 819 00:40:03,502 --> 00:40:07,302 Speaker 1: kitchen or you know, at workstation and dealing with the public. 820 00:40:07,542 --> 00:40:10,542 Speaker 1: That is a drain, and it's one that you don't 821 00:40:10,582 --> 00:40:13,861 Speaker 1: have when you work from home. Although I find Zoom 822 00:40:13,942 --> 00:40:16,622 Speaker 1: utterly depleting, so it's interesting. I think maybe I'm just 823 00:40:16,661 --> 00:40:17,502 Speaker 1: more conscious of it. 824 00:40:17,982 --> 00:40:20,102 Speaker 2: That's it, out louders, That is all we have time 825 00:40:20,142 --> 00:40:22,261 Speaker 2: for today. A massive thank you for being here with 826 00:40:22,342 --> 00:40:24,502 Speaker 2: us on this Monday, and of course to our fabulous 827 00:40:24,542 --> 00:40:26,742 Speaker 2: team has always for helping us put this show together. 828 00:40:26,902 --> 00:40:28,462 Speaker 2: We're going to be back in your ears tomorrow. 829 00:40:28,822 --> 00:40:32,181 Speaker 3: Goodbye, good bye. Shout out to any Mum and me 830 00:40:32,261 --> 00:40:34,982 Speaker 3: A subscribers listening. If you love the show and you 831 00:40:35,022 --> 00:40:37,781 Speaker 3: want to support us, subscribing to mom and Mia is 832 00:40:37,822 --> 00:40:40,381 Speaker 3: the very best way to do so. There's a link 833 00:40:40,462 --> 00:40:41,542 Speaker 3: in the episode description