WEBVTT - SPECIAL EPISODE: The Lindsay Clancy Conversation 0:00:08.234 --> 0:00:24.114 You're listening to a Mother and mea podcast out Loud 0:00:24.154 --> 0:00:27.434 as welcome to a special episode of Mum and Me 0:00:27.554 --> 0:00:29.794 Are out Loud, and it's one that we really wish 0:00:29.834 --> 0:00:31.754 that we didn't have to make because it is about 0:00:31.754 --> 0:00:35.114 a murder trial that's currently happening in the US where 0:00:35.114 --> 0:00:38.153 a woman called Lindsey Clancy has admitted to killing her 0:00:38.234 --> 0:00:42.633 three young children in twenty twenty three before trying to 0:00:42.674 --> 0:00:45.394 take her own life. You may know a lot about 0:00:45.394 --> 0:00:48.114 this story, you may know a little bit about this story, 0:00:48.434 --> 0:00:51.313 or you may know nothing about this story. It is 0:00:51.354 --> 0:00:54.754 incredibly distressing, and that's why we wanted to separate it 0:00:54.794 --> 0:00:57.234 from your regular episode of out Loud to give you 0:00:57.273 --> 0:01:00.154 the choice about whether to listen to us talk about 0:01:00.194 --> 0:01:02.794 it without having to miss out on your regular Wednesday 0:01:02.794 --> 0:01:06.634 episode that dropped yesterday as usual, so you can just 0:01:06.634 --> 0:01:10.234 scroll back in your feed and listen to that. But 0:01:10.714 --> 0:01:12.834 we wanted to give this story some room to breathe 0:01:12.954 --> 0:01:15.874 because out Loud is a daily show that covers what 0:01:15.994 --> 0:01:19.474 women are talking about, and this case has captured women's 0:01:19.474 --> 0:01:24.834 attention in the most extraordinary way, and we want to 0:01:24.914 --> 0:01:28.114 try and understand why. My name is Mia Friedman, I'm 0:01:28.114 --> 0:01:29.994 one of the hosts of Muma Mea out Loud, and 0:01:30.034 --> 0:01:34.394 I'm joined today by two members of our Quickie team. 0:01:34.554 --> 0:01:38.874 The Quickie is Muma Maya's daily news podcast twice daily 0:01:38.914 --> 0:01:42.394 in fact, and with me at the Muma Mea out 0:01:42.434 --> 0:01:44.874 Loud table today is tams and Rose, who is an 0:01:44.874 --> 0:01:48.354 accomplished journalist and one of the two new hosts of 0:01:48.514 --> 0:01:51.554 the Quickie, and also Georgie Page, who is a group 0:01:51.594 --> 0:01:54.674 executive producer at Mumma Mea and is working across the 0:01:54.754 --> 0:01:58.354 Quickie as well. Welcome to both of you. I really 0:01:58.354 --> 0:02:00.674 wish that we weren't here, and the reason that I 0:02:00.714 --> 0:02:04.314 wanted you both to be sitting at the table. I 0:02:04.354 --> 0:02:06.354 am one of those people who doesn't know much about 0:02:06.354 --> 0:02:10.314 this case at all. I've deliberately tried not to focus 0:02:10.314 --> 0:02:13.913 on it, but I couldn't help but be made aware 0:02:13.913 --> 0:02:17.674 of it when just this week, interestingly, about three or 0:02:17.714 --> 0:02:21.594 four of my group chats with very different people all 0:02:21.634 --> 0:02:25.554 started popping off and talking about it. And then when 0:02:25.634 --> 0:02:29.074 someone mentioned it in the office, ten people jumped up 0:02:29.114 --> 0:02:31.874 and started talking about it as well, women of all 0:02:31.874 --> 0:02:34.514 different generations, and Tams and You were saying to me 0:02:34.594 --> 0:02:36.514 earlier before we came into the studio that there are 0:02:36.554 --> 0:02:40.754 like two different conversations going. One is about the actual 0:02:40.954 --> 0:02:43.194 story of what's happening in the trial at the moment, 0:02:43.194 --> 0:02:45.274 which is being televised in the US. It's been going 0:02:45.314 --> 0:02:48.314 for about three weeks. And the other, Georgie, which you 0:02:48.394 --> 0:02:52.194 know a lot about, is the parallel story that's happening 0:02:52.234 --> 0:02:55.073 on the internet, which is about this case, but it's 0:02:55.114 --> 0:02:57.793 going in a very very different direction. So Tams and 0:02:58.474 --> 0:03:00.794 let's start at the beginning. Who is Lindsay Clancy. 0:03:01.274 --> 0:03:03.594 So Lindsay Clancy is a thirty six year old woman 0:03:03.634 --> 0:03:06.794 who lives in Massachusetts in the States. She was married 0:03:06.794 --> 0:03:09.634 to her husband Patrick, and they had three kids. They 0:03:09.634 --> 0:03:11.394 had a five year old, a three year old, and 0:03:11.434 --> 0:03:13.794 an eight month old, and she was working as a 0:03:13.874 --> 0:03:17.834 labor and delivery nurse up until this killing occurred. 0:03:18.194 --> 0:03:21.954 So my understanding is that this crime happened in twenty 0:03:22.114 --> 0:03:27.754 twenty three, after she I believe strangled the children, she 0:03:27.914 --> 0:03:30.194 tried to take her own life. Is that correct? 0:03:30.554 --> 0:03:30.754 Yep. 0:03:30.834 --> 0:03:32.834 So that's what's going through court at the moment. The 0:03:32.874 --> 0:03:34.994 reason that we're hearing about this so much now is 0:03:35.034 --> 0:03:38.354 because it's come to trial. So she's been charged with 0:03:38.474 --> 0:03:41.034 the murder of her three children after they were found 0:03:41.034 --> 0:03:43.474 dead in her home, and that was after she was 0:03:43.514 --> 0:03:47.514 also found with very significant injuries. And so the allegation 0:03:47.794 --> 0:03:51.114 is that she killed her three children, she murdered them, 0:03:51.434 --> 0:03:53.394 and then she tried to take her own life. 0:03:53.434 --> 0:03:54.194 Is she denying that. 0:03:54.474 --> 0:03:57.594 No, So she's not denying that she killed the children. 0:03:57.994 --> 0:04:00.354 What this case hinges on is whether she can be 0:04:01.114 --> 0:04:04.834 held legally responsible for that killing given the mental state 0:04:04.914 --> 0:04:05.234 she was in. 0:04:05.234 --> 0:04:07.034 And that's really the crux of the case in court 0:04:07.234 --> 0:04:07.714 at the moment. 0:04:08.674 --> 0:04:10.714 Some of the footage of the trial that I've seen, 0:04:10.954 --> 0:04:14.594 I mean, it's obviously incredibly distressing to watch, even apart 0:04:14.634 --> 0:04:18.074 from the horrific nature of the crime. From what I understand, 0:04:18.553 --> 0:04:22.794 she took some pills, self harmed and then threw herself 0:04:22.834 --> 0:04:26.474 out of the window of their house. She's paralyzed and 0:04:26.914 --> 0:04:32.274 is in a wheelchair in court sobbing hysterically. What's the 0:04:32.313 --> 0:04:36.753 court case about? Then? If she said I pled guilty, 0:04:36.953 --> 0:04:39.474 is she saying by reasons of insanity? 0:04:40.034 --> 0:04:44.993 So she has pled not guilty. And the thing here is, 0:04:45.034 --> 0:04:46.993 so she's not denying that she killed them, that she's 0:04:47.034 --> 0:04:49.834 denying that she murdered them. So it's the intent here, 0:04:49.873 --> 0:04:52.314 and it's whether she can be held accountable for her 0:04:52.354 --> 0:04:55.354 actions given her mental state at the time. So the 0:04:55.393 --> 0:04:59.153 prosecution is arguing that it was premeditated. She had decided 0:04:59.154 --> 0:05:01.713 she would kill her children, She sent her husband Patrick 0:05:01.753 --> 0:05:04.553 to the shops to pick up food and prescriptions, and 0:05:04.594 --> 0:05:06.994 then in that time gave herself enough time to kill 0:05:07.034 --> 0:05:09.674 her children and then attempt to kill herself. What this 0:05:09.873 --> 0:05:12.594 case really hinges on is whether she can prove and 0:05:12.633 --> 0:05:15.154 whether her lawyers can prove that she was in such 0:05:15.154 --> 0:05:16.154 a severe. 0:05:15.794 --> 0:05:17.914 State of due to postpartum depression. 0:05:18.154 --> 0:05:21.033 Postpartum psychosis is what they're actually saying in this and 0:05:21.113 --> 0:05:24.674 so that's different. It's more rare than postpartum depression. It's 0:05:24.714 --> 0:05:26.033 a very specific condition. 0:05:26.234 --> 0:05:29.154 I interviewed a woman once, an Australian woman who had 0:05:29.234 --> 0:05:33.594 postpartum psychosis, and she described it as she was pushing 0:05:33.633 --> 0:05:36.433 her baby down in a pram down the street and 0:05:36.513 --> 0:05:38.433 she looked at him and he looked like a dragon, 0:05:39.393 --> 0:05:42.674 and she couldn't believe that other people couldn't see that 0:05:42.753 --> 0:05:43.633 he was a dragon. 0:05:43.873 --> 0:05:44.714 So it's scary. 0:05:45.034 --> 0:05:48.834 Yeah, it's not just postpartum depression can be incredibly debilitating 0:05:49.354 --> 0:05:52.433 for women. But this is a different thing, psychosis. Yeah. 0:05:52.873 --> 0:05:55.914 So did her husband or anyone around her see any 0:05:55.953 --> 0:05:58.753 evidence of this postpartum psychosis? Did she see a doctor 0:05:58.914 --> 0:06:00.034 or did she tell anyone? 0:06:00.234 --> 0:06:00.553 Yes? 0:06:00.633 --> 0:06:04.113 So she was talking a lot to her husband, to 0:06:04.313 --> 0:06:08.274 her mother, to her friends, and to doctors about how 0:06:08.313 --> 0:06:10.274 she was feeling. She had expressed to them that she 0:06:10.354 --> 0:06:13.274 was feeling suicidal, that she was seeing things, that she 0:06:13.354 --> 0:06:17.993 was unwell, she was begging for help. She had seen psychologists, psychiatrists, 0:06:18.433 --> 0:06:21.113 she was on a cocktail of drugs at the time 0:06:21.154 --> 0:06:25.593 of this. And Patrick, her husband, has given evidence that 0:06:25.873 --> 0:06:28.873 he feels like she was misdiagnosed and that she was. 0:06:28.794 --> 0:06:31.914 Getting the incorrect treatment. That's playing a critical role in this. 0:06:32.674 --> 0:06:37.193 How a woman who was begging for help alongside looking 0:06:37.234 --> 0:06:40.514 after three children. She was saying, I desperately need help, 0:06:40.553 --> 0:06:41.313 I'm not well. 0:06:41.794 --> 0:06:42.354 How does she. 0:06:42.274 --> 0:06:44.993 Still end up in the position where her three children 0:06:45.034 --> 0:06:47.034 are dead and she's on trial for their murder. 0:06:47.714 --> 0:06:51.193 So this sounds like just a completely tragic case. But 0:06:51.474 --> 0:06:56.914 why has this story started popping up in everybody's group chats? Georgie? 0:06:56.914 --> 0:06:59.474 This is why I wanted to ask you, because by 0:06:59.474 --> 0:07:03.074 all accounts, it's a tragedy, it's a trial that's ongoing, 0:07:03.113 --> 0:07:06.193 it's been televised, so I understand that that's captured the imagination. 0:07:07.154 --> 0:07:10.594 But horrific crimes like this happen all the time. Children 0:07:10.834 --> 0:07:14.713 are murdered tragically by their parents every day around the world. 0:07:15.594 --> 0:07:17.634 Why has this captured everyone's attention. 0:07:18.514 --> 0:07:21.033 It's really interesting because I am following this case in 0:07:21.074 --> 0:07:23.634 two ways. I'm following the news reports, which are telling 0:07:23.634 --> 0:07:26.233 me what's happening in the court case, but I'm also 0:07:26.354 --> 0:07:28.874 really interested in true crime, and I follow a lot 0:07:28.914 --> 0:07:34.194 of the cases. The internet discourse is about Patrick and Lindsey. 0:07:34.714 --> 0:07:37.393 There's not as much discussion about the kids, and that's 0:07:37.393 --> 0:07:39.354 almost sort of taken out of it because it is 0:07:39.393 --> 0:07:43.834 such a tragic part and it is more like two things. 0:07:44.953 --> 0:07:48.673 Did Patrick do it? Or did Patrick not do enough? 0:07:48.994 --> 0:07:49.793 So it happened? 0:07:50.034 --> 0:07:51.994 So wait a second, I'm going to stop you right there. 0:07:52.034 --> 0:07:55.393 Did Patrick do it? Well? She said that she did 0:07:55.393 --> 0:07:59.593 it and he was at the shops. My understanding is 0:08:00.074 --> 0:08:03.354 that hasn't come up in court. The idea of him 0:08:03.393 --> 0:08:04.154 doing it has. 0:08:04.034 --> 0:08:05.833 It no, So that hasn't come up in court at all. 0:08:05.914 --> 0:08:07.514 And I think this is where it's really important to 0:08:07.554 --> 0:08:10.154 make the two distinctions. There are two cases running. One 0:08:10.194 --> 0:08:12.834 is the court of public opinion that's playing out all 0:08:12.834 --> 0:08:15.473 over social media. That's exactly what George's talking about. And 0:08:15.514 --> 0:08:17.353 then we have the case that's being run in court, 0:08:17.393 --> 0:08:20.194 and that is purely about her role in these killings. 0:08:20.234 --> 0:08:23.714 So he's there in court, he's giving evidence, but none 0:08:23.754 --> 0:08:26.434 of it is questioning whether he had an involvement in 0:08:26.474 --> 0:08:26.994 the killings. 0:08:27.114 --> 0:08:31.554 Okay, so is he sort of supportive of her in court? 0:08:31.554 --> 0:08:32.593 Are they still married? 0:08:33.194 --> 0:08:35.953 They are not still married. He has remarried, or so 0:08:36.074 --> 0:08:38.953 he has married a woman that looks very like Lindsay, 0:08:39.394 --> 0:08:42.794 which is allowing online commentators on TikTok and Reddit and 0:08:42.874 --> 0:08:45.394 things to really go to town on what they think 0:08:45.754 --> 0:08:49.834 of him. He is absolutely the bad guy online. There 0:08:49.874 --> 0:08:51.954 are a lot of people on social media who are 0:08:51.954 --> 0:08:55.434 presenting themselves as true crime experts and presenting these as facts. 0:08:55.474 --> 0:08:59.514 So can you just take us through broadly the conspiracy 0:08:59.634 --> 0:09:03.994 theory that is captured attention? What do people say they 0:09:04.034 --> 0:09:04.754 think happened? 0:09:05.394 --> 0:09:08.994 I would actually say conspiracy theoryes. Let's just say though, 0:09:09.034 --> 0:09:11.394 that none of these are including the fact that we 0:09:11.474 --> 0:09:14.754 now know that she suffered from psychosis. So these are 0:09:15.114 --> 0:09:18.234 very often generated by Internet sleuths who may not have 0:09:18.314 --> 0:09:19.034 factored that in. 0:09:19.394 --> 0:09:23.154 So what is the internet's justification for the fact that 0:09:23.194 --> 0:09:26.194 she has given evidence, actual evidence to say I did 0:09:26.234 --> 0:09:29.674 it and is distraught about the fact that she did it? 0:09:30.034 --> 0:09:32.354 And you know what, that's such an interesting point because 0:09:32.594 --> 0:09:35.114 we really have to be crystal clear yet again here 0:09:35.314 --> 0:09:38.994 Patrick Clancy is not on trial. He is not accused 0:09:39.034 --> 0:09:42.514 of anything. The theories that we're referring to are all 0:09:42.554 --> 0:09:45.754 purely about what's being repeated on the internet, right, and 0:09:45.794 --> 0:09:48.554 these theories we can't go into too much detail about 0:09:48.754 --> 0:09:52.914 because of legalities. So one of the internet theories is 0:09:52.954 --> 0:09:56.594 that she believes she did it because her ex husband 0:09:56.634 --> 0:09:59.754 made her believe so. And a lot of the discussion 0:09:59.794 --> 0:10:02.394 that I've read about on mainly things like Reddit like 0:10:02.434 --> 0:10:05.674 this is going deep into this, is that her lawyer 0:10:05.914 --> 0:10:08.994 is using this case to prove to her that she 0:10:09.034 --> 0:10:09.594 didn't do it. 0:10:09.874 --> 0:10:12.074 But what do you mean using this court case. She's 0:10:12.154 --> 0:10:12.874 been charged. 0:10:13.274 --> 0:10:16.434 She's been charged, But some of the crazy conspiracies on 0:10:16.474 --> 0:10:19.914 the Internet believe that he is trying to show inconsistencies 0:10:19.954 --> 0:10:24.474 in the case that will make her say, maybe I 0:10:24.554 --> 0:10:27.234 didn't do it, but she fully believes that she did it, 0:10:27.274 --> 0:10:29.994 and everyone knows that. But there is so much sympathy 0:10:29.994 --> 0:10:31.994 for this woman in a way that you do not 0:10:32.114 --> 0:10:34.834 often see for women who allege that they killed their children. 0:10:35.154 --> 0:10:38.114 I also think an important distinction to make. She has 0:10:38.154 --> 0:10:40.714 not said that she didn't kill them, and it's understood 0:10:40.714 --> 0:10:42.514 that she believes she killed them, But she's never given 0:10:42.554 --> 0:10:44.474 evidence in court, and we're not actually expecting her to 0:10:44.474 --> 0:10:48.034 give any evidence, as is her right as a defendant. 0:10:48.114 --> 0:10:51.714 She is sitting there, but she doesn't have to give evidence. Effectively, 0:10:51.714 --> 0:10:53.714 her legal argument is just that she was not in 0:10:53.754 --> 0:10:56.314 her right mind when this happened. But that is all 0:10:56.354 --> 0:10:58.234 being made on her behalf. 0:11:09.234 --> 0:11:13.114 So why is the internet? And by the Internet we 0:11:13.274 --> 0:11:16.434 sort of mean reddit and TikTok and just also the 0:11:16.514 --> 0:11:18.754 general discourse. You know, when we say the internet, we 0:11:18.834 --> 0:11:21.074 just meet people, right And in a lot of group 0:11:21.154 --> 0:11:23.634 chats I've seen there are influences and people I know 0:11:23.714 --> 0:11:28.833 personally who are making reels and tiktoks asserting very specific 0:11:28.914 --> 0:11:31.394 facts about the lawyer and the this and the hymn 0:11:31.474 --> 0:11:35.314 and the why, like why is everyone so invested? 0:11:35.634 --> 0:11:40.194 There's something different about this case and It's really actually 0:11:40.194 --> 0:11:44.194 hard to put my finger on what because personally, I 0:11:44.274 --> 0:11:47.634 feel so much sympathy for this woman, and I watch 0:11:47.674 --> 0:11:50.474 her in court. I almost can't make it join in 0:11:50.514 --> 0:11:53.194 my mind that she's done these horrible things, even though 0:11:53.434 --> 0:11:56.754 I do believe that she has, because I feel she 0:11:56.874 --> 0:12:01.074 was so failed by the system, either inconsistencies, all rumors 0:12:01.114 --> 0:12:04.154 that have now been sold as facts, and so the 0:12:04.194 --> 0:12:08.154 Internet is jumping on this. It's amazing lickbait. Obviously the 0:12:08.194 --> 0:12:09.474 internet is jumping on this. 0:12:09.834 --> 0:12:12.474 And maybe this is why I haven't been captivated by 0:12:12.474 --> 0:12:15.274 this story so much, because I'm not someone who follows 0:12:15.274 --> 0:12:18.994 true crime, so it sounds like what's happening, correct me 0:12:18.994 --> 0:12:22.994 if I'm wrong. It's so difficult to look at this 0:12:23.074 --> 0:12:26.354 woman and think about that crime, and so confronting and 0:12:26.394 --> 0:12:29.234 distressing to think of a mother doing that to her children, 0:12:30.034 --> 0:12:32.154 and the details of that we won't go into, but 0:12:33.354 --> 0:12:37.794 my god, that we want to find ways to not 0:12:37.914 --> 0:12:42.114 blame her by either saying someone else did it or 0:12:42.154 --> 0:12:44.194 putting the blame on the system. 0:12:44.514 --> 0:12:44.914 Yeah. 0:12:45.034 --> 0:12:45.234 Yeah. 0:12:45.754 --> 0:12:48.314 I also think one of the reasons that it's captured 0:12:48.354 --> 0:12:51.274 so many people's attention, whether they are a mother or 0:12:51.954 --> 0:12:56.874 they're not yet is so many women have experienced being 0:12:56.914 --> 0:12:59.354 shut down by the medical system in some way or another. 0:12:59.434 --> 0:13:01.314 They've gone and they've asked for help for something, They've 0:13:01.354 --> 0:13:03.234 asked for a test and the doctor's told them you, actually, 0:13:03.274 --> 0:13:04.234 you don't need it, or you. 0:13:04.234 --> 0:13:05.834 Know what, come back, maybe it's a period. 0:13:06.434 --> 0:13:10.674 And this is the most extreme version of that. And 0:13:10.834 --> 0:13:15.074 I think it's quite scary if you think about if 0:13:15.074 --> 0:13:17.914 I'm continuously ignored, if people don't take me seriously, I 0:13:17.914 --> 0:13:19.994 don't get the right treatment I need when I'm doing 0:13:20.194 --> 0:13:24.554 everything that I'm supposed to do to get help. That's 0:13:24.594 --> 0:13:27.154 what happens. It feels like it could be anyone. 0:13:27.434 --> 0:13:29.714 Okay, So the health system in America, we know is 0:13:29.794 --> 0:13:34.634 a binfire. She had expressed that she was struggling, so 0:13:34.674 --> 0:13:37.514 she was in that twelvemonth mark, which is the high 0:13:37.594 --> 0:13:42.514 risk time after the birth of her third child. Because 0:13:42.554 --> 0:13:46.274 my experience of the health system, it's been a while 0:13:46.474 --> 0:13:49.634 since I had a baby. They're very attentive to you. 0:13:49.714 --> 0:13:51.314 I was talking to some of the new mothers in 0:13:51.354 --> 0:13:55.714 the office, and you have compulsory health checks at certain points, 0:13:55.794 --> 0:13:58.034 like at the six week mark and one week mark, 0:13:58.314 --> 0:14:00.754 and they ask you a lot of very specific questions, 0:14:01.394 --> 0:14:03.514 and that's the case in Australia. In the US, it's 0:14:04.114 --> 0:14:07.274 possibly not like that. But we do know that she 0:14:07.314 --> 0:14:11.274 was seeing a psychiatrist and a psychologist and they've given evidence, 0:14:11.314 --> 0:14:15.233 I presume that she was diagnosed with postpartum psychosis. 0:14:15.354 --> 0:14:18.154 So she hadn't been diagnosed, and that's part of the 0:14:18.234 --> 0:14:20.354 crux of this is that she was asking for help. 0:14:20.434 --> 0:14:23.794 She was clearly going through something. Everything she was saying 0:14:23.834 --> 0:14:27.794 and doing was showing that, but she hadn't received that diagnosis. 0:14:28.154 --> 0:14:30.194 So that's what they're attempting. 0:14:29.714 --> 0:14:32.714 To now prove, and really over the next two to 0:14:32.794 --> 0:14:34.514 three weeks, which is now when we're going to hear 0:14:34.514 --> 0:14:36.714 from the defense. That's when we're going to really see 0:14:36.754 --> 0:14:38.794 that come to the front, because that's going to be 0:14:39.114 --> 0:14:42.394 the key defense from her team. So we're going to 0:14:42.394 --> 0:14:44.434 be hearing from a lot of those aspects now. 0:14:44.674 --> 0:14:47.114 So, like you said, she is in that danger zone 0:14:47.114 --> 0:14:49.474 of one year, and I feel it's like when you 0:14:49.514 --> 0:14:52.154 first have a baby and everyone visits and everyone helps 0:14:52.154 --> 0:14:54.834 at the start, and you get asked those questions that 0:14:54.874 --> 0:14:57.674 you mentioned over and over again every few. 0:14:57.474 --> 0:14:59.754 Weeks, also very much with your first baby. I think 0:14:59.754 --> 0:15:02.274 by the time we have your third. And this is 0:15:02.314 --> 0:15:05.634 what's interesting. I haven't had postpartum depression, but I assumed 0:15:06.594 --> 0:15:09.434 that it was something that happened the first time, or 0:15:09.474 --> 0:15:12.154 it didn't happen. But it's different with every child. 0:15:12.394 --> 0:15:15.474 It's different, absolutely, And so her youngest was at the 0:15:15.514 --> 0:15:19.194 eight month mark, and that's the time when people have 0:15:19.274 --> 0:15:21.314 sort of floated away. But you may not be getting 0:15:21.354 --> 0:15:24.354 all the support. So maybe she wasn't being asked those 0:15:24.474 --> 0:15:28.074 questions until she sought out help. Anyway, I know that 0:15:28.234 --> 0:15:30.394 I probably wasn't asked as many questions when I had 0:15:30.434 --> 0:15:32.994 my kids around that time. But was I sleeping? 0:15:33.114 --> 0:15:33.194 No? 0:15:33.554 --> 0:15:34.914 Was I really struggling? 0:15:35.034 --> 0:15:35.314 Yes? 0:15:35.674 --> 0:15:36.994 Has her mother given evidence? 0:15:37.354 --> 0:15:39.314 Her mother's given evidence this week. 0:15:39.274 --> 0:15:40.434 And what did her mother say. 0:15:40.674 --> 0:15:43.994 She gave evidence effectively saying that her daughter was asking 0:15:43.994 --> 0:15:46.514 for help. She showed text messages where her daughter told 0:15:46.554 --> 0:15:49.154 her that she was feeling suicidal. She was asking if 0:15:49.194 --> 0:15:51.114 her mum could come and sleep in her bed. She 0:15:51.234 --> 0:15:53.554 was clearly not in a good way, and her mother's 0:15:53.594 --> 0:15:54.314 given that evidence. 0:15:54.714 --> 0:15:57.754 And there's no one, including her mother, her friends, who's 0:15:57.794 --> 0:16:02.754 actually made any accusations about the husband. It's literally just 0:16:02.794 --> 0:16:03.634 online speculation. 0:16:03.754 --> 0:16:05.754 There's been nothing in court there's been nothing. 0:16:05.794 --> 0:16:07.754 But at the same time, there's a lot of people 0:16:07.874 --> 0:16:11.394 shouting from the rooftop saying, if your wife tells you 0:16:11.474 --> 0:16:14.914 that she is struggling, do not go out to the 0:16:14.994 --> 0:16:18.754 chemist and get take away by yourself. Take at least 0:16:18.754 --> 0:16:22.394 one child, or take all the children. Was he being 0:16:22.434 --> 0:16:25.234 negligent by leaving a woman who was struggling and has 0:16:25.274 --> 0:16:28.274 spoken about that at length at home with three children. 0:16:28.554 --> 0:16:29.154 That's a question. 0:16:29.314 --> 0:16:32.634 When I interviewed that woman, she said she would try 0:16:32.634 --> 0:16:36.514 to hide it because she said she was scared that 0:16:36.594 --> 0:16:40.394 someone would take her baby away from her. Not saying 0:16:40.434 --> 0:16:42.674 that that's what happened with Lindsay, but I thought that 0:16:42.794 --> 0:16:45.954 was interesting, like it's not always visible from the outside. 0:16:46.114 --> 0:16:58.754 That's what she That's what she said. You know, you 0:16:58.794 --> 0:17:02.554 were talking to me, Georgie about women with T shirts 0:17:02.554 --> 0:17:04.434 saying Lindsay's army. 0:17:05.114 --> 0:17:05.914 What's that about? 0:17:06.033 --> 0:17:09.914 So there is m available unofficial obviously from this trial. 0:17:10.354 --> 0:17:13.234 You can get Team Lindsey T shirts. You can get 0:17:13.314 --> 0:17:16.914 T shirts saying I'm the thirteenth dura in the Lindsay 0:17:16.914 --> 0:17:21.554 Clancy case. People are making reels saying taking three weeks 0:17:21.594 --> 0:17:23.874 off work because I'm studying the Lindsay Clancy case. 0:17:24.394 --> 0:17:26.754 So it's turned it's been turned into a content for. 0:17:26.754 --> 0:17:31.073 Us, into an absolute circus. So I feel with cases 0:17:31.114 --> 0:17:32.834 like this, we need a baddie, and no one wants 0:17:32.874 --> 0:17:33.834 the baddie to be her. 0:17:34.274 --> 0:17:38.714 I also think it's often easier to be angry than gutted, 0:17:39.714 --> 0:17:42.274 you know. I see that time and time again when 0:17:42.354 --> 0:17:46.874 something devastating happens, it's easier to be angry. And it's 0:17:46.954 --> 0:17:49.314 too confronting for us to think of a mother killing 0:17:49.314 --> 0:17:52.714 her own children, so someone else must be responsible. So 0:17:52.794 --> 0:17:56.314 her ex husband actually appeared on the stands on day five. 0:17:57.234 --> 0:17:58.074 What did he say? 0:17:58.834 --> 0:18:03.354 He testified to the general state of well being of 0:18:03.394 --> 0:18:06.434 his wife at the time. He said, on the day 0:18:06.434 --> 0:18:09.033 of the killing, she's seemed well. That was his quote. 0:18:09.434 --> 0:18:12.074 But he also said it had been an incredibly turbulent 0:18:12.154 --> 0:18:14.994 period of time and that she had been struggling, that 0:18:15.034 --> 0:18:18.554 she had been expressing those struggles to him. He had 0:18:18.594 --> 0:18:22.114 also taken her to hospital a few days prior because 0:18:22.154 --> 0:18:25.594 of her insomnia and her anxiety, so she was clearly 0:18:25.794 --> 0:18:28.994 expressing enough to him that meant that he was doing 0:18:28.994 --> 0:18:32.434 things like taking her to hospital. He also said, which 0:18:32.474 --> 0:18:34.714 is to what Georgie said before he got on the 0:18:34.714 --> 0:18:37.834 stand and said he's forgiven his ex wife for the 0:18:37.874 --> 0:18:38.874 deaths of their children. 0:18:39.474 --> 0:18:41.353 You know, it makes me think I've been watching some 0:18:41.394 --> 0:18:43.513 of those having said I don't like true crime. I've 0:18:43.514 --> 0:18:47.154 been watching a few true crime documentaries on Netflix, etc. 0:18:47.674 --> 0:18:50.513 And it's always that thing of it's not what it 0:18:50.554 --> 0:18:54.754 looks like yep. And so it's almost like the plot's 0:18:54.794 --> 0:18:57.714 not good enough of this story. Their needs what's the twist. 0:18:58.234 --> 0:19:00.554 And the twist is because it's never who you think 0:19:00.594 --> 0:19:03.594 it is, and it's always someone very close to the crime. 0:19:04.314 --> 0:19:06.954 So everyone is just treating this like a cross between 0:19:06.954 --> 0:19:10.234 the Super Bowl and a true crime story. 0:19:10.314 --> 0:19:14.994 Right, there's absolutely a need to glorify and add a 0:19:15.314 --> 0:19:18.154 layer of excitement on the internet, which isn't there in 0:19:18.194 --> 0:19:18.754 the courtroom. 0:19:18.914 --> 0:19:21.194 It's funny you say the word excitement, because that's the 0:19:21.194 --> 0:19:24.274 impression that I've got, which has been so surprising given 0:19:24.274 --> 0:19:27.674 what a tragic story this is. People are excited about it. 0:19:27.714 --> 0:19:31.754 And the last time I remember this kind of vibe 0:19:31.874 --> 0:19:35.754 was around maybe Black Lively and Justin Baldoni or the 0:19:35.874 --> 0:19:39.833 Amber heard Johnny Depp trial, But no one died in 0:19:39.914 --> 0:19:41.514 those stories. 0:19:41.474 --> 0:19:42.794 You know, they're not children. 0:19:43.554 --> 0:19:47.074 I am finding it quite uncomfortable at times engaging with 0:19:47.154 --> 0:19:53.074 this discourse where what we're discussing what was done was brutally. 0:19:52.794 --> 0:19:53.994 Killing three children. 0:19:54.474 --> 0:19:57.994 It's so horrific the details of this case, and as 0:19:57.994 --> 0:20:01.394 we're going on this back and forth all the theories, 0:20:01.994 --> 0:20:04.273 obviously everyone wants to get to the heart of it, 0:20:04.314 --> 0:20:07.434 but some of the tone has been hard to engage with. 0:20:07.794 --> 0:20:10.354 Yeah, do you mean about that sort of excitement? 0:20:10.554 --> 0:20:11.834 Yeah, totally, Even just. 0:20:11.794 --> 0:20:15.234 When you use scrolling and you see, you know, someone 0:20:15.274 --> 0:20:17.954 in full makeup doing a piece to camera and going, 0:20:18.714 --> 0:20:20.354 you know, and I'm just like, oh, what's this about, 0:20:20.354 --> 0:20:21.434 And I'm like, whoa. 0:20:21.554 --> 0:20:23.793 Yeah, Yeah, I mean it's three kids who've died, a 0:20:23.834 --> 0:20:28.634 woman who's become paralyzed, and everyone's life has been destroyed 0:20:28.674 --> 0:20:29.314 in the process. 0:20:29.394 --> 0:20:31.034 It's really, really horrible. 0:20:31.034 --> 0:20:32.674 It's not exciting entertainment. 0:20:32.834 --> 0:20:34.714 The other thing on that is you would hope that 0:20:34.794 --> 0:20:38.114