1 00:00:11,542 --> 00:00:14,302 Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. 2 00:00:15,022 --> 00:00:18,582 Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters. 3 00:00:18,702 --> 00:00:26,542 Speaker 2: This podcast was recorded on It's a Friday Afternoon in 4 00:00:26,622 --> 00:00:29,742 Speaker 2: March twenty fifteen in the New Zealand city of Invercargo 5 00:00:30,262 --> 00:00:32,902 Speaker 2: and Fiona lou arrives at her eleven year old son's 6 00:00:32,902 --> 00:00:37,102 Speaker 2: school just after three pm. Mike isn't there that his 7 00:00:37,182 --> 00:00:40,102 Speaker 2: teachers aren't worried. They saw him just before lunch and 8 00:00:40,142 --> 00:00:42,542 Speaker 2: he probably caught the bus home after swimming practice in 9 00:00:42,582 --> 00:00:47,022 Speaker 2: the afternoon. They tell her. Fiona heads home, but Mike 10 00:00:47,142 --> 00:00:51,862 Speaker 2: doesn't arrive. At four thirty pm. She calls the school worried. 11 00:00:52,462 --> 00:00:56,222 Speaker 2: Then she calls the police. She's pretty sure she knows 12 00:00:56,262 --> 00:01:00,182 Speaker 2: what's happened. Her ex husband, John, who her son adores, 13 00:01:00,782 --> 00:01:03,222 Speaker 2: has traveled to the school from his home in Queenstown 14 00:01:03,302 --> 00:01:06,782 Speaker 2: and kidnapped him. She insists she's terrified he'll take him 15 00:01:06,782 --> 00:01:10,382 Speaker 2: out of the country, but the police drag their feet. 16 00:01:11,182 --> 00:01:14,142 Speaker 2: They do issue a border alert, but after that they 17 00:01:14,142 --> 00:01:16,302 Speaker 2: tell her there's nothing much they can do right now. 18 00:01:16,822 --> 00:01:21,542 Speaker 2: They'll reassess on Monday. For two nights, Fiona doesn't sleep. 19 00:01:22,382 --> 00:01:25,142 Speaker 2: By the time police take the case seriously. On the Monday, 20 00:01:25,502 --> 00:01:28,062 Speaker 2: John and Mike are well and truly on the run. 21 00:01:29,142 --> 00:01:32,582 Speaker 2: Police say they died in a murder suicide, but Fiona 22 00:01:32,622 --> 00:01:36,622 Speaker 2: doesn't accept that. She is confident her son, Mike and 23 00:01:36,662 --> 00:01:46,942 Speaker 2: his stepdad John are very much still alive. I'm Jemma 24 00:01:47,022 --> 00:01:50,382 Speaker 2: Bath and this is True Crime Conversations a Muma mea 25 00:01:50,422 --> 00:01:54,542 Speaker 2: podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to 26 00:01:54,582 --> 00:01:58,102 Speaker 2: the people who know the most about them. At one 27 00:01:58,182 --> 00:02:01,982 Speaker 2: forty four pm on Friday March twentieth, a week after 28 00:02:02,022 --> 00:02:05,822 Speaker 2: Mike's disappearance, Fiona receives a text message from him. 29 00:02:06,542 --> 00:02:09,142 Speaker 3: Do you know why this has happened? First, do not 30 00:02:09,262 --> 00:02:13,702 Speaker 3: care what I say? You only listen to Peter cowshit. Second, 31 00:02:13,902 --> 00:02:16,262 Speaker 3: you lie and you should have agreed about the contract 32 00:02:16,262 --> 00:02:19,422 Speaker 3: that was going fifty to fifty three. You have caused 33 00:02:19,422 --> 00:02:22,302 Speaker 3: this with Peter and you know ps. You do not 34 00:02:22,502 --> 00:02:25,462 Speaker 3: deserve to be my mum and you certainly don't deserve 35 00:02:25,502 --> 00:02:26,742 Speaker 3: my love from Mike. 36 00:02:27,702 --> 00:02:31,662 Speaker 2: At one forty five pm, another text comes through, this 37 00:02:31,782 --> 00:02:33,062 Speaker 2: time from John. 38 00:02:34,542 --> 00:02:38,262 Speaker 4: Thanks my love for being my wife, my partner and 39 00:02:38,342 --> 00:02:42,662 Speaker 4: my best friend. You are very good at lying and deceiving. 40 00:02:43,542 --> 00:02:48,862 Speaker 4: You have destroyed our family my life and Mike's happy 41 00:02:48,902 --> 00:02:52,502 Speaker 4: for what you have done. Me and Mike are leaving 42 00:02:52,582 --> 00:02:57,222 Speaker 4: now on the Midnight Express three minutes for departure by 43 00:02:57,382 --> 00:03:01,662 Speaker 4: my love and thanks for everything, JB and MB. 44 00:03:03,662 --> 00:03:06,662 Speaker 2: It's the last time Fiona ever hears from either of them. 45 00:03:07,182 --> 00:03:10,062 Speaker 2: Their car is found nine days later the bottom of 46 00:03:10,102 --> 00:03:14,022 Speaker 2: Sheer Cliffs, about an hour's drive from Invercargo, but their 47 00:03:14,062 --> 00:03:18,502 Speaker 2: bodies are nowhere to be found. Michael Wright, co host 48 00:03:18,582 --> 00:03:22,262 Speaker 2: of the Lost Boy podcast series with fellow journalist Shannon Redstaol, 49 00:03:22,462 --> 00:03:26,262 Speaker 2: explores the two theories in this case. The first is 50 00:03:26,302 --> 00:03:30,022 Speaker 2: that Mike and John died in March twenty fifteen. The 51 00:03:30,062 --> 00:03:34,342 Speaker 2: other is that they're very much still alive and living overseas. 52 00:03:35,302 --> 00:03:40,462 Speaker 2: Michael joins us, Now, Mike, how did John Beckinridge come 53 00:03:40,462 --> 00:03:43,342 Speaker 2: into the lives of Mike and his mum Fiona and 54 00:03:43,382 --> 00:03:45,742 Speaker 2: what were the dynamics of their family unit. 55 00:03:46,342 --> 00:03:51,022 Speaker 1: John Beckonridge was a peripatetic guy. He was a guy 56 00:03:51,062 --> 00:03:54,102 Speaker 1: who traveled a lot, worked a lot in different places 57 00:03:54,462 --> 00:03:56,902 Speaker 1: around the globe. He was a helicopter pilot and he 58 00:03:56,982 --> 00:04:01,382 Speaker 1: actually met Fiona while he was flying helicopters in Afghanistan. 59 00:04:02,342 --> 00:04:05,582 Speaker 1: And after they met and struck up a relationship. He 60 00:04:06,182 --> 00:04:10,142 Speaker 1: would take time off and China in the Northeastern province 61 00:04:10,542 --> 00:04:13,102 Speaker 1: north of Shanghai, where she lived, and that's where he 62 00:04:13,182 --> 00:04:17,382 Speaker 1: met her son, Mike, who would have been a preschooler 63 00:04:17,422 --> 00:04:21,542 Speaker 1: at that point. And about this time John had been 64 00:04:21,582 --> 00:04:24,462 Speaker 1: living in Australia but had bought some land in New Zealand, 65 00:04:24,502 --> 00:04:27,942 Speaker 1: down in Queenstown in the South Island. And so it 66 00:04:28,022 --> 00:04:31,542 Speaker 1: happened over about a year they moved to New Zealand, 67 00:04:31,782 --> 00:04:35,062 Speaker 1: built a house, moved in and formed this kind of 68 00:04:35,142 --> 00:04:36,902 Speaker 1: unlikely nuclear family. 69 00:04:37,222 --> 00:04:38,702 Speaker 2: I want to touch a little bit more on his 70 00:04:38,822 --> 00:04:41,142 Speaker 2: job because it does become a bit more relevant down 71 00:04:41,142 --> 00:04:44,422 Speaker 2: the track. But he was a helicopter pilot. It's a 72 00:04:44,422 --> 00:04:45,822 Speaker 2: pretty dangerous profession. 73 00:04:46,902 --> 00:04:51,662 Speaker 1: Yes, in Afghanistan. He was flying like roading crews to 74 00:04:51,702 --> 00:04:54,662 Speaker 1: patch up highways in the country because highways are a 75 00:04:54,662 --> 00:04:56,862 Speaker 1: collateral damage in war. It turns out when you blow 76 00:04:56,902 --> 00:04:58,982 Speaker 1: up a highway that's a problem, someone needs to fix it. 77 00:04:59,342 --> 00:05:02,022 Speaker 1: And he got the job he had because the previous 78 00:05:02,382 --> 00:05:04,902 Speaker 1: person working that had been shot down and killed. Wow, 79 00:05:05,302 --> 00:05:09,702 Speaker 1: he was doing stuff. Yeah, it was not just you know, 80 00:05:09,782 --> 00:05:13,702 Speaker 1: flying a helicopter from a to B with all the 81 00:05:14,142 --> 00:05:18,222 Speaker 1: usual helicopter risks. He was an interesting guy. He was 82 00:05:18,222 --> 00:05:22,422 Speaker 1: a capable guy doing abnormal work. And yeah, like you said, 83 00:05:22,422 --> 00:05:25,702 Speaker 1: that came up when he and Mike disappeared as to 84 00:05:25,742 --> 00:05:29,222 Speaker 1: how he might have used his particular sets of skills, 85 00:05:29,262 --> 00:05:33,382 Speaker 1: if he can call them that, to maybe make them vanish. 86 00:05:33,902 --> 00:05:37,942 Speaker 2: John and Mike they became very close over the years. 87 00:05:37,942 --> 00:05:40,262 Speaker 2: Can you tell us about the relationship that they formed. 88 00:05:41,422 --> 00:05:44,542 Speaker 1: Yeah, so John and Fiona married and that made John 89 00:05:44,982 --> 00:05:48,822 Speaker 1: Mike's stepfather, and it took a week while for them 90 00:05:48,822 --> 00:05:53,022 Speaker 1: to warm to each other, I think. But John was 91 00:05:53,142 --> 00:05:55,542 Speaker 1: very keen on being a hands on dad to Mike. 92 00:05:55,662 --> 00:05:58,502 Speaker 1: He would buy him toys, he would play video games, 93 00:05:58,542 --> 00:06:02,022 Speaker 1: computer games with him. He wanted him to do key 94 00:06:02,062 --> 00:06:05,462 Speaker 1: Wee boy stuff, you know. And this was a kid 95 00:06:05,462 --> 00:06:08,422 Speaker 1: who didn't speak English when he met him. He was 96 00:06:08,542 --> 00:06:10,262 Speaker 1: five or six years old, I think. When they moved 97 00:06:10,262 --> 00:06:13,982 Speaker 1: to New Zealand, and it took over three or four years, 98 00:06:13,982 --> 00:06:18,462 Speaker 1: they became really really close. In this time, Fiona was 99 00:06:18,582 --> 00:06:21,302 Speaker 1: away a lot. They lived in Queenstown, which is near 100 00:06:21,342 --> 00:06:24,342 Speaker 1: the bottom of the South Island, and Fiona was studying 101 00:06:24,582 --> 00:06:27,382 Speaker 1: a headdressing course in a nearby city a couple hours 102 00:06:27,462 --> 00:06:29,462 Speaker 1: drive away, So she was away for quite a lot. 103 00:06:29,462 --> 00:06:31,702 Speaker 1: So John and Mike were spending a lot of time 104 00:06:31,742 --> 00:06:36,062 Speaker 1: together and getting very close, and when John and Fiona's 105 00:06:36,062 --> 00:06:40,342 Speaker 1: marriage faltered, that became a big issue. The first episode 106 00:06:40,342 --> 00:06:44,302 Speaker 1: of the podcast is called He's My Son Too, because 107 00:06:44,382 --> 00:06:47,542 Speaker 1: Mike's custody. As we know from The Lost Boy, the 108 00:06:47,702 --> 00:06:50,822 Speaker 1: entire part, the entire story was at the heart of 109 00:06:50,862 --> 00:06:51,342 Speaker 1: all of this. 110 00:06:52,542 --> 00:06:56,662 Speaker 2: Can you expand a bit more on John and Fiona's 111 00:06:56,702 --> 00:06:59,342 Speaker 2: relationship and how it did end up breaking down? 112 00:06:59,902 --> 00:07:03,342 Speaker 1: Yeah, So, like I said, Fiona was away from home 113 00:07:03,382 --> 00:07:05,822 Speaker 1: a bit studying doing a hedrissing course. She was a 114 00:07:05,822 --> 00:07:08,862 Speaker 1: thanks sort of Monday Thursday away back weekends at home, 115 00:07:09,582 --> 00:07:13,822 Speaker 1: and whilst doing this she met someone else, kind of 116 00:07:14,422 --> 00:07:18,142 Speaker 1: that old chestnut. This guy was a farmer who lived 117 00:07:18,462 --> 00:07:21,022 Speaker 1: near in Vicargo, the city right at the bottom of 118 00:07:21,062 --> 00:07:24,782 Speaker 1: the South Island in New Zealand. Sit of a place 119 00:07:24,822 --> 00:07:26,502 Speaker 1: which I'm allowed to say because I'm from a different 120 00:07:26,542 --> 00:07:30,502 Speaker 1: part of South sorry and Vicago. Mick Jagger once called 121 00:07:30,542 --> 00:07:32,662 Speaker 1: it the asshole of the world when the Rolling Stones 122 00:07:32,662 --> 00:07:36,662 Speaker 1: found themselves there in the sixties. Yeah, So she met 123 00:07:36,662 --> 00:07:39,782 Speaker 1: this farmer and they struck up a relationship and that 124 00:07:39,942 --> 00:07:43,422 Speaker 1: was the end of John and Fiona's marriage more or less. 125 00:07:45,062 --> 00:07:47,542 Speaker 1: When she left, she wanted to take her son with her, 126 00:07:47,982 --> 00:07:50,422 Speaker 1: and as I've mentioned, John had said, no, he's my 127 00:07:50,582 --> 00:07:53,222 Speaker 1: son too. This is his home. We have built this home. 128 00:07:54,222 --> 00:07:56,342 Speaker 1: His house was very important to him. His house was 129 00:07:56,382 --> 00:07:58,182 Speaker 1: his castle. He was that kind of guy. He built 130 00:07:58,182 --> 00:08:01,022 Speaker 1: this life with his wife and his son, and Mike 131 00:08:01,222 --> 00:08:06,502 Speaker 1: was John's son in his eyes. So Mike stayed with 132 00:08:06,622 --> 00:08:12,342 Speaker 1: John when Fiona left and she moved to in Vacagol 133 00:08:12,622 --> 00:08:16,862 Speaker 1: to start a relationship with a farmer that lasted for 134 00:08:17,862 --> 00:08:21,782 Speaker 1: several months eighteen months ish total. And at the end 135 00:08:21,862 --> 00:08:25,262 Speaker 1: of that there was a family called hearing at which 136 00:08:26,182 --> 00:08:30,142 Speaker 1: Fiona was granted custody of Mike as his birth mother, 137 00:08:31,022 --> 00:08:33,022 Speaker 1: and so Mike was going to be transferred. He was 138 00:08:33,062 --> 00:08:34,862 Speaker 1: transferred at the end of the preceeding. He was literally 139 00:08:34,902 --> 00:08:37,462 Speaker 1: put in a police car and taken to where Fiona 140 00:08:37,502 --> 00:08:40,662 Speaker 1: and her family were staying in Queenstown for the duration 141 00:08:40,742 --> 00:08:44,582 Speaker 1: of the hearing and placed in their custody. And as 142 00:08:44,582 --> 00:08:47,462 Speaker 1: we get into in the pod, Mike was extremely upset 143 00:08:47,582 --> 00:08:50,622 Speaker 1: about this. Through a tantrum, he kind of trashed the 144 00:08:50,662 --> 00:08:53,782 Speaker 1: place that they were living in and it was just 145 00:08:53,822 --> 00:08:56,902 Speaker 1: a sign of really how close they'd become, how dependent 146 00:08:56,942 --> 00:09:01,502 Speaker 1: they'd become, and to some extent, the control that John 147 00:09:01,542 --> 00:09:02,742 Speaker 1: exerted over Mike. 148 00:09:03,382 --> 00:09:06,142 Speaker 2: Well, he even called one one one your emergency services 149 00:09:06,142 --> 00:09:07,262 Speaker 2: on his own mother, didn't he. 150 00:09:07,822 --> 00:09:11,422 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, he accused Fiona's new partner of assaulting him. 151 00:09:11,542 --> 00:09:13,302 Speaker 1: He rang one one one and said, my mum's been 152 00:09:13,342 --> 00:09:17,462 Speaker 1: assaulting me. The cop showed up and kind of saw 153 00:09:17,542 --> 00:09:20,822 Speaker 1: what was happening here, and Mike said to this cop, 154 00:09:20,942 --> 00:09:22,982 Speaker 1: and the cop was clear when he gave evidence later 155 00:09:23,062 --> 00:09:25,662 Speaker 1: at a corner's hearing, this kid was going to cause 156 00:09:25,702 --> 00:09:29,062 Speaker 1: trouble until he was allowed to go back and stay 157 00:09:29,142 --> 00:09:32,462 Speaker 1: with John, who he saw as his father. But phony 158 00:09:32,542 --> 00:09:34,422 Speaker 1: one one one on your mum and making a fake 159 00:09:34,502 --> 00:09:38,742 Speaker 1: complaint about assaults is abnormal behavior. 160 00:09:39,542 --> 00:09:43,262 Speaker 2: And Fiona and her new partner, Peter, they were trying 161 00:09:43,262 --> 00:09:45,742 Speaker 2: their best, weren't they. They were really trying to help Mike 162 00:09:45,862 --> 00:09:46,382 Speaker 2: settle in. 163 00:09:46,982 --> 00:09:49,902 Speaker 1: Oh, absolutely, yeah. They started him in a school down 164 00:09:49,942 --> 00:09:52,862 Speaker 1: in the cargo. They tried to do exactly the same 165 00:09:52,902 --> 00:09:55,542 Speaker 1: thing basically that John and Fiona and Mike had done. 166 00:09:55,742 --> 00:09:58,342 Speaker 1: Fiona just simply had a new partner, but given what 167 00:09:58,382 --> 00:10:01,702 Speaker 1: had happened, between John and Mike. This behavior did not stop. 168 00:10:02,022 --> 00:10:06,622 Speaker 1: Mike was hard work by all accounts, He was withdrawn 169 00:10:06,862 --> 00:10:11,102 Speaker 1: or sullen or sometimes outright abusive. He would just tell 170 00:10:11,102 --> 00:10:14,022 Speaker 1: Peter to fuck off. He called them Peter. Him and 171 00:10:14,102 --> 00:10:16,262 Speaker 1: John had a nickname from They called them Peter cowshit. 172 00:10:16,862 --> 00:10:19,182 Speaker 2: How is John reacting to all of this? Obviously we've 173 00:10:19,222 --> 00:10:22,542 Speaker 2: seen that Mike is quite aggressive, quite upset. What about John? 174 00:10:23,622 --> 00:10:27,542 Speaker 1: So John, as far as the authorities knew, was more 175 00:10:27,622 --> 00:10:29,622 Speaker 1: or less abiding by what was in place, and that 176 00:10:29,662 --> 00:10:32,382 Speaker 1: he wasn't to have any contact with Mike that wasn't 177 00:10:32,382 --> 00:10:36,902 Speaker 1: otherwise pre arranged or organized. He sent Mike one text message, 178 00:10:36,942 --> 00:10:39,462 Speaker 1: which we mentioned in the podcast, sort of saying, be 179 00:10:39,582 --> 00:10:42,062 Speaker 1: good son, be a good boy. This will all sort 180 00:10:42,102 --> 00:10:46,102 Speaker 1: itself out. Nothing too sinister, just what scans is a 181 00:10:46,182 --> 00:10:49,942 Speaker 1: quite supportive message from an ex stepfather. At that point, 182 00:10:50,382 --> 00:10:55,382 Speaker 1: it turned out that their disappearance in twenty fifteen John 183 00:10:55,422 --> 00:10:59,382 Speaker 1: and Mike's was based on quite a bit of covert 184 00:10:59,462 --> 00:11:02,782 Speaker 1: communication between the two. Mike had managed to make contact 185 00:11:02,822 --> 00:11:06,142 Speaker 1: with John first I think, and then that he was 186 00:11:06,222 --> 00:11:10,062 Speaker 1: using bernafones and code names, even unnecessary code names, I think, 187 00:11:10,062 --> 00:11:12,942 Speaker 1: but co names done the less to communicate with each 188 00:11:12,982 --> 00:11:18,462 Speaker 1: other and organize an escape for lack of a better word. 189 00:11:19,262 --> 00:11:23,902 Speaker 2: Timeline wise, Mike moves in with his mum and Peter, 190 00:11:25,022 --> 00:11:28,782 Speaker 2: you know, February twenty fifteen, and it's only about a 191 00:11:28,782 --> 00:11:31,382 Speaker 2: month or so later that he goes missing. It's quite 192 00:11:31,622 --> 00:11:35,902 Speaker 2: a tight turnaround. Can you tell us about the day 193 00:11:35,982 --> 00:11:40,662 Speaker 2: before Mike and John disappear. Was there anything unusual that 194 00:11:40,702 --> 00:11:43,222 Speaker 2: Fiona noticed in her son that day? 195 00:11:44,062 --> 00:11:48,022 Speaker 1: Yes? So, like I said, Mike had been quite sullen, withdrawn, 196 00:11:48,142 --> 00:11:51,582 Speaker 1: kind of hostile to Fiona and Peter, her new partner. 197 00:11:52,262 --> 00:11:55,222 Speaker 1: And on this night, this is the last night, Fiona, 198 00:11:55,262 --> 00:11:57,862 Speaker 1: who didn't appear at the Corner's hearing which this podcast 199 00:11:57,902 --> 00:12:00,262 Speaker 1: is based on, but did give a statement. It said 200 00:12:00,302 --> 00:12:05,062 Speaker 1: then that Mike seemed on edge, kind of a nervous, 201 00:12:05,102 --> 00:12:09,462 Speaker 1: like play acting almost. It was it's hard to tell 202 00:12:09,462 --> 00:12:12,062 Speaker 1: on Hines, but she was just she felt like, in hindsight, 203 00:12:12,102 --> 00:12:16,702 Speaker 1: he was trying to hide something, like it was just different. 204 00:12:17,102 --> 00:12:19,422 Speaker 1: His behavior was off, like he knew something was coming. 205 00:12:19,462 --> 00:12:22,662 Speaker 1: We subsequently we now know that he did know something 206 00:12:22,742 --> 00:12:24,662 Speaker 1: was coming. They of course were going to go missing 207 00:12:24,662 --> 00:12:27,542 Speaker 1: the next day. But yeah, it was kind of ominous 208 00:12:27,582 --> 00:12:30,342 Speaker 1: the way his behavior had changed, like he knew it 209 00:12:30,422 --> 00:12:33,302 Speaker 1: was coming, and his mother in hindsight could tell that's 210 00:12:33,302 --> 00:12:33,862 Speaker 1: what it was. 211 00:12:34,862 --> 00:12:38,862 Speaker 2: So the next day, it's a Friday, March thirteenth, Mike 212 00:12:38,902 --> 00:12:43,022 Speaker 2: goes to school. Can you explain the iPad incident, because 213 00:12:43,182 --> 00:12:45,862 Speaker 2: that basically kind of starts everything off. 214 00:12:46,942 --> 00:12:51,502 Speaker 1: Yeah, So Mike had an iPad and that was how 215 00:12:51,542 --> 00:12:55,462 Speaker 1: he first was able to communicate with John. Police believe 216 00:12:55,502 --> 00:12:57,622 Speaker 1: they never got access to the iPad after the fact, 217 00:12:57,902 --> 00:13:00,142 Speaker 1: And on this day, the thirteenth, he took it to 218 00:13:00,182 --> 00:13:04,702 Speaker 1: school and Fiona and Peter subsequently realized he had done 219 00:13:04,782 --> 00:13:07,302 Speaker 1: this late morning and called the school and said that 220 00:13:07,382 --> 00:13:09,382 Speaker 1: Mike's not supposed to have his iPad. They were worried 221 00:13:09,822 --> 00:13:12,022 Speaker 1: he might come John, or John might try and contact 222 00:13:12,542 --> 00:13:14,982 Speaker 1: He wasn't allowed to have that kind of unauthorized use 223 00:13:15,022 --> 00:13:19,422 Speaker 1: of it. So Peter, Fiona's partner, goes down to the 224 00:13:19,462 --> 00:13:22,862 Speaker 1: school to collect the iPad Mike's and music class I 225 00:13:22,862 --> 00:13:26,382 Speaker 1: think at this time, and he goes into the reception area. 226 00:13:26,502 --> 00:13:28,942 Speaker 1: Mike is arranged to have come from his class and 227 00:13:28,942 --> 00:13:31,422 Speaker 1: give him the iPad. And this has gone over a 228 00:13:31,462 --> 00:13:33,142 Speaker 1: lot and a lot of detail at the current is 229 00:13:33,182 --> 00:13:35,822 Speaker 1: hearing because there was CCTV footage at the school, and 230 00:13:35,862 --> 00:13:38,342 Speaker 1: it was the last CCTV footage they have of Mike's. 231 00:13:38,342 --> 00:13:42,782 Speaker 1: It was studied quite closely, and Mike's behavior was just 232 00:13:42,822 --> 00:13:45,222 Speaker 1: a little bit strange. It took him wi It took 233 00:13:45,262 --> 00:13:46,902 Speaker 1: him longer than it's sure to have got from his 234 00:13:46,942 --> 00:13:50,822 Speaker 1: classroom to the front of the school wherever Peter was 235 00:13:50,822 --> 00:13:52,782 Speaker 1: to just hand over it. It's a pretty straightforward thing. 236 00:13:52,822 --> 00:13:54,502 Speaker 1: Here's my iPad out of my bag, I'll go back 237 00:13:54,502 --> 00:13:57,222 Speaker 1: to class. He kind of went back and forward. They 238 00:13:57,262 --> 00:14:01,542 Speaker 1: could see him on cameras pausing and stopping. What's he 239 00:14:01,662 --> 00:14:05,182 Speaker 1: doing there? But the bottom line, there was nothing definitive 240 00:14:05,222 --> 00:14:08,382 Speaker 1: on there. He wasn't like Court furiously sending one last 241 00:14:08,382 --> 00:14:10,582 Speaker 1: message and then putting it in his bag and running away. 242 00:14:11,062 --> 00:14:13,062 Speaker 1: It was just a bit strange, but it kind of 243 00:14:13,062 --> 00:14:18,662 Speaker 1: set in motion two or three hours worth of miscommunication 244 00:14:19,942 --> 00:14:24,422 Speaker 1: suspicions about behavior that culminated in everyone realizing that Mike 245 00:14:24,462 --> 00:14:26,062 Speaker 1: and John had gone. 246 00:14:26,982 --> 00:14:29,382 Speaker 2: Because, as you say, this was kind of around lunchtime, 247 00:14:30,262 --> 00:14:33,022 Speaker 2: and then Fiona comes to pick up Mike in the afternoon, 248 00:14:33,262 --> 00:14:37,142 Speaker 2: after three o'clock when school finishes, and he's not there. 249 00:14:37,822 --> 00:14:41,982 Speaker 2: What do we know about his movements between music class 250 00:14:42,062 --> 00:14:45,342 Speaker 2: and the afternoon or what do they think might have happened. 251 00:14:45,782 --> 00:14:49,582 Speaker 1: Yeah, so there's an unfortunate communication breakdown in here, and 252 00:14:50,102 --> 00:14:53,982 Speaker 1: no one is quite sure exactly what happened between lunchtime 253 00:14:54,062 --> 00:14:55,942 Speaker 1: and the end of school. There's about a two hour 254 00:14:55,982 --> 00:15:00,502 Speaker 1: window when it's pretty hazy. It's likely I think that 255 00:15:00,982 --> 00:15:03,902 Speaker 1: somewhere at the start of that window, John takes Mike 256 00:15:04,742 --> 00:15:07,382 Speaker 1: was what happened in that afternoon was Mike's class that 257 00:15:07,422 --> 00:15:09,942 Speaker 1: he was in was going swimming offsite, so they dig 258 00:15:10,022 --> 00:15:12,942 Speaker 1: into a go to the pool, come back. There was 259 00:15:12,982 --> 00:15:16,902 Speaker 1: a relieving teacher involved in this process, so the taking 260 00:15:16,942 --> 00:15:20,702 Speaker 1: of the role wasn't as rigorous as it might otherwise 261 00:15:20,702 --> 00:15:24,062 Speaker 1: have been. When Mike wasn't there for pickup at the 262 00:15:24,142 --> 00:15:26,582 Speaker 1: end of school, a teacher, Oh, he must have just 263 00:15:26,702 --> 00:15:30,062 Speaker 1: got off the swimming bus and got on the school 264 00:15:30,062 --> 00:15:32,702 Speaker 1: bus to go home, Fiona, so there's no need. He 265 00:15:32,782 --> 00:15:35,422 Speaker 1: must be at home. So it took huntil about three 266 00:15:35,422 --> 00:15:38,382 Speaker 1: point thirty four o'clock when Mike didn't show up at home, 267 00:15:38,622 --> 00:15:40,222 Speaker 1: when Fiona was like, well, hang on, where is he? 268 00:15:40,782 --> 00:15:44,462 Speaker 1: And went back to school and kind of raised the alarm, 269 00:15:44,502 --> 00:15:47,902 Speaker 1: and then the balloon went up sort of because Fiona 270 00:15:47,982 --> 00:15:51,702 Speaker 1: was worried about what might have happened. But as we 271 00:15:51,782 --> 00:15:53,862 Speaker 1: get into in the podcast, it took a couple of 272 00:15:53,942 --> 00:15:58,502 Speaker 1: days for a police investigation or a search you know, 273 00:15:58,582 --> 00:16:01,822 Speaker 1: an APB to go out and things to really start 274 00:16:01,862 --> 00:16:04,662 Speaker 1: happening to try and find these guys because it was 275 00:16:05,702 --> 00:16:08,782 Speaker 1: it was not treated with urgency straight away. 276 00:16:09,502 --> 00:16:11,782 Speaker 2: Why wasn't a tree with urgency? It's an eleven year 277 00:16:11,822 --> 00:16:13,862 Speaker 2: old boy, You'd have. 278 00:16:13,822 --> 00:16:18,102 Speaker 1: To ask the police. Honestly, it's easy now to say, 279 00:16:19,302 --> 00:16:22,862 Speaker 1: why did they not immediately span out across Southland and 280 00:16:22,902 --> 00:16:26,182 Speaker 1: just try and find anything to track these guys down? 281 00:16:26,782 --> 00:16:31,342 Speaker 1: But it was never really because John and might were close. 282 00:16:32,462 --> 00:16:34,702 Speaker 1: It was never really a consideration that Mike might be 283 00:16:34,702 --> 00:16:39,262 Speaker 1: in danger. He might be physically in danger whatever John 284 00:16:39,342 --> 00:16:42,782 Speaker 1: might do to him. Which is the first measure for 285 00:16:42,862 --> 00:16:47,342 Speaker 1: how quickly and urgently and comprehensively police will respond to 286 00:16:47,382 --> 00:16:51,182 Speaker 1: a missing child. If somebody's abducted by somebody that they 287 00:16:51,262 --> 00:16:53,822 Speaker 1: know has an intent of harming them, of course police 288 00:16:54,262 --> 00:16:57,062 Speaker 1: would go all out to find that person. But this 289 00:16:57,262 --> 00:17:03,782 Speaker 1: was I suspect a domestic issue, you know, that was 290 00:17:03,782 --> 00:17:05,502 Speaker 1: how it was seen. Look, this is a fight between 291 00:17:05,502 --> 00:17:09,462 Speaker 1: an X and the kid's mum. He's probably taken them. 292 00:17:09,462 --> 00:17:11,582 Speaker 1: Maybe they're going fishing for the weekend that he just 293 00:17:11,622 --> 00:17:13,942 Speaker 1: wants to see him. They're not going to vanish off 294 00:17:13,982 --> 00:17:15,742 Speaker 1: the face of the earth. You know, that was not 295 00:17:16,062 --> 00:17:21,702 Speaker 1: the thinking. They weren't disregarding salient information at that point 296 00:17:21,822 --> 00:17:24,582 Speaker 1: that might have been telling them you need to go 297 00:17:24,622 --> 00:17:25,542 Speaker 1: and find these guys. 298 00:17:26,622 --> 00:17:30,702 Speaker 2: Was it also disregarded a little bit because obviously weekends 299 00:17:30,742 --> 00:17:33,542 Speaker 2: there's not as many people on deck. They kind of 300 00:17:33,542 --> 00:17:36,262 Speaker 2: were like, let's pick it up on Monday kind of thing. 301 00:17:38,462 --> 00:17:41,022 Speaker 1: It's hard to say. Police never said anything like that. 302 00:17:41,462 --> 00:17:44,942 Speaker 1: Fiona and Peter kind of lamented as much, thinking like 303 00:17:46,022 --> 00:17:48,742 Speaker 1: it's a Friday afternoon. The investigation really kind of picks 304 00:17:48,782 --> 00:17:51,502 Speaker 1: up on a Monday. Other things happen, Some people come 305 00:17:51,542 --> 00:17:55,662 Speaker 1: to police and give them more information about what's going 306 00:17:55,702 --> 00:17:58,302 Speaker 1: on in this family. We can't get into all of that. 307 00:17:58,422 --> 00:18:00,942 Speaker 1: There are suppressions around this case. The family call was involved, 308 00:18:00,982 --> 00:18:05,742 Speaker 1: but more information comes to the police that gives them 309 00:18:05,822 --> 00:18:09,942 Speaker 1: good reason to escalate their actions and trying to find 310 00:18:09,982 --> 00:18:12,542 Speaker 1: these guys. I think it was the Monday when police 311 00:18:12,582 --> 00:18:14,862 Speaker 1: realized they had enough information in front of them to 312 00:18:14,862 --> 00:18:17,942 Speaker 1: be okay, this is actually a serious problem. One. We 313 00:18:17,942 --> 00:18:19,942 Speaker 1: haven't heard from them in two days. No one's seen them. 314 00:18:19,982 --> 00:18:20,582 Speaker 1: Where are they? 315 00:18:23,742 --> 00:18:27,382 Speaker 2: You're listening to true Crime Conversations with me Jimmy Bath. 316 00:18:27,902 --> 00:18:30,742 Speaker 2: I'm speaking with New Zealand based journalist and co host 317 00:18:30,782 --> 00:18:34,582 Speaker 2: of the Lost Boy podcast Michael Wright. Up next, What 318 00:18:34,702 --> 00:18:37,342 Speaker 2: do the police find when their search for Mike and 319 00:18:37,422 --> 00:18:45,062 Speaker 2: John begins? So the police get calls about two different 320 00:18:45,062 --> 00:18:48,982 Speaker 2: camp sites. Let's start with the first one. A farmer 321 00:18:49,062 --> 00:18:52,702 Speaker 2: calls them and tells them about a sighting. Can you 322 00:18:52,742 --> 00:18:53,902 Speaker 2: tell us about what they found? 323 00:18:54,702 --> 00:18:58,502 Speaker 1: Yeah, So the first part of the police APB was 324 00:18:58,942 --> 00:19:01,382 Speaker 1: these two guys. Here are their photos. Here is their vehicle. 325 00:19:02,622 --> 00:19:07,862 Speaker 1: John's vehicle's Volkswagen Touring and a farmer in rural Southland. 326 00:19:07,902 --> 00:19:09,462 Speaker 1: And I should stress this is a really kind of 327 00:19:09,502 --> 00:19:14,182 Speaker 1: remote part of an already rural area, an already rural 328 00:19:14,222 --> 00:19:16,622 Speaker 1: part of New Zealand, right at the bottom of the 329 00:19:16,662 --> 00:19:19,222 Speaker 1: South Island. We're in farmland. It's kind of off the 330 00:19:19,262 --> 00:19:23,182 Speaker 1: main highway. It's not somewhere people go unless you live 331 00:19:23,262 --> 00:19:27,422 Speaker 1: there or have a good reason to go. So vehicles 332 00:19:27,462 --> 00:19:29,822 Speaker 1: that police are trying to find are conspicuous. If somebody 333 00:19:29,822 --> 00:19:33,622 Speaker 1: recognizes one and a farmer did near a town called 334 00:19:33,982 --> 00:19:38,142 Speaker 1: Windham and called police and said, look, I saw this 335 00:19:38,462 --> 00:19:40,862 Speaker 1: blue Volkswagen toyg or what looked like it on the 336 00:19:40,902 --> 00:19:42,382 Speaker 1: edge of my property or just over the edge of 337 00:19:42,382 --> 00:19:46,302 Speaker 1: my property yesterday day before. So police track this down. 338 00:19:46,582 --> 00:19:49,702 Speaker 1: The car is gone, but they do find the remnants 339 00:19:49,742 --> 00:19:53,102 Speaker 1: of what looks like a campsite, a pretty rough campsite. 340 00:19:53,102 --> 00:19:56,502 Speaker 1: Two people sleeping rough. Perhaps there's a tent, but there's 341 00:19:56,502 --> 00:20:03,822 Speaker 1: some very basic toothpaste, discarded tea bags, a bandage, those 342 00:20:03,942 --> 00:20:06,542 Speaker 1: kinds of things left at this site. There's a little 343 00:20:06,542 --> 00:20:08,462 Speaker 1: bit of lettuce that's still green, so then it's a 344 00:20:08,502 --> 00:20:12,982 Speaker 1: fresh site and it's pretty clear. It's not one hundred percent, 345 00:20:13,022 --> 00:20:16,222 Speaker 1: but it looks very likely that this is John and 346 00:20:16,302 --> 00:20:21,542 Speaker 1: Mike on the run, sleeping rough, you know, back of 347 00:20:21,582 --> 00:20:22,902 Speaker 1: a farmer's paddock sort of thing. 348 00:20:24,342 --> 00:20:26,422 Speaker 2: And then they get word of a second camp site. 349 00:20:26,862 --> 00:20:30,582 Speaker 2: Timeline wise, we're talking about Thursday the nineteenth, so it's 350 00:20:30,702 --> 00:20:33,942 Speaker 2: you know, a week later almost What did they find 351 00:20:34,062 --> 00:20:34,902 Speaker 2: at that site? 352 00:20:35,662 --> 00:20:39,382 Speaker 1: The second site was reported to them by someone who 353 00:20:39,382 --> 00:20:41,622 Speaker 1: had been added. This is this is an actual campsite, 354 00:20:41,662 --> 00:20:46,222 Speaker 1: like a government run, you know, state campsite, a proper thing, 355 00:20:46,262 --> 00:20:47,982 Speaker 1: and someone went into a police station and said, I 356 00:20:47,982 --> 00:20:50,222 Speaker 1: think I saw these guys yesterday day before at the 357 00:20:50,302 --> 00:20:52,982 Speaker 1: site a place called hall Dane Bay, just right on 358 00:20:53,022 --> 00:20:56,022 Speaker 1: the south coast. So police go there and they find 359 00:20:56,062 --> 00:20:58,142 Speaker 1: their site. They find the tent and everything in it, 360 00:20:58,222 --> 00:21:02,542 Speaker 1: and that's that's it, you know that this is where 361 00:21:02,542 --> 00:21:04,742 Speaker 1: they are. We haven't found them, but we've kind of 362 00:21:04,742 --> 00:21:08,302 Speaker 1: found them. So they stake it out and wait for 363 00:21:08,302 --> 00:21:10,742 Speaker 1: these guys to come back. The blue tour egg is there, 364 00:21:10,862 --> 00:21:17,382 Speaker 1: but the campsite is and they don't come back after 365 00:21:17,542 --> 00:21:21,102 Speaker 1: I think the police wait overnight hidden in the bushes 366 00:21:21,142 --> 00:21:25,262 Speaker 1: around the site, waiting for them to come back. And 367 00:21:25,302 --> 00:21:27,182 Speaker 1: then they go, okay, let's go and search this thing. 368 00:21:27,622 --> 00:21:29,622 Speaker 1: Turn the campsite over and see what we can find. 369 00:21:30,462 --> 00:21:32,622 Speaker 1: And they find all the usual things. You know, guess 370 00:21:32,662 --> 00:21:36,102 Speaker 1: cook is sleeping bags, attempts or all the things you 371 00:21:36,142 --> 00:21:40,862 Speaker 1: would do. Pretty basic but actual camping. But there's no 372 00:21:40,862 --> 00:21:42,422 Speaker 1: sign of John or Mike. 373 00:21:43,142 --> 00:21:46,462 Speaker 2: Meanwhile, while they've got this stakeout happening, police are obviously 374 00:21:46,462 --> 00:21:50,582 Speaker 2: digging into John's life a bit more, and they're finding 375 00:21:50,622 --> 00:21:52,902 Speaker 2: a few things of note. He's kind of spoken to 376 00:21:52,942 --> 00:21:57,102 Speaker 2: his lawyer. He's gotten rid of some possessions. What else 377 00:21:57,222 --> 00:21:58,862 Speaker 2: was he kind of doing behind the scenes. 378 00:22:00,782 --> 00:22:03,302 Speaker 1: Yeah, so John, it's about a three week period from 379 00:22:03,382 --> 00:22:06,702 Speaker 1: him from the family court case to the disappearance, and 380 00:22:06,742 --> 00:22:08,782 Speaker 1: in that time, John, as you say, has spoken to 381 00:22:08,822 --> 00:22:12,382 Speaker 1: a lawyer. He was inquiring at possibly appealing that decision. 382 00:22:13,062 --> 00:22:16,502 Speaker 1: He had, as you say, given some things away possessions 383 00:22:16,502 --> 00:22:18,982 Speaker 1: to other people, like a computer or some camping gear 384 00:22:19,102 --> 00:22:23,302 Speaker 1: or weather jackets, that sort of thing, material possession type stuff. 385 00:22:24,062 --> 00:22:27,382 Speaker 1: And he had also been, as he had for some months, 386 00:22:27,502 --> 00:22:31,982 Speaker 1: borrowing money of friends, a few hundred here, a few 387 00:22:32,022 --> 00:22:34,782 Speaker 1: thousand here, not like tens or hundreds of thousands of 388 00:22:34,822 --> 00:22:38,622 Speaker 1: dollars or something, but you know, not nothing. So on 389 00:22:38,662 --> 00:22:43,742 Speaker 1: the one hand, there's ways you can read into it. 390 00:22:43,822 --> 00:22:45,222 Speaker 1: Maybe he was a guy who looked like he was 391 00:22:45,262 --> 00:22:47,342 Speaker 1: getting his affairs in order before he was going to 392 00:22:47,342 --> 00:22:49,702 Speaker 1: go and do something drastic, or he was a guy 393 00:22:49,742 --> 00:22:52,502 Speaker 1: who was just sort of desperate and evolving a little 394 00:22:52,502 --> 00:22:54,702 Speaker 1: and really wanted to get his son or his step 395 00:22:54,782 --> 00:22:57,782 Speaker 1: son back and trying to do everything he could. But 396 00:22:57,902 --> 00:23:00,982 Speaker 1: as police looked into him and his home in Queenstown 397 00:23:00,982 --> 00:23:04,862 Speaker 1: and all of these things around him, it became clear 398 00:23:04,902 --> 00:23:08,702 Speaker 1: that John was sort of he he planned something. He 399 00:23:08,742 --> 00:23:10,942 Speaker 1: had been working at this for a while, and they 400 00:23:10,982 --> 00:23:15,142 Speaker 1: realized the extent of their communication, or likely communication. They 401 00:23:15,182 --> 00:23:18,702 Speaker 1: found a memory stick with some photos on it that 402 00:23:18,742 --> 00:23:23,502 Speaker 1: had annotated notes on it of Mike's school planned like 403 00:23:23,662 --> 00:23:26,342 Speaker 1: Google map, street view type stuff that these two had 404 00:23:26,382 --> 00:23:29,782 Speaker 1: obviously been working with each other on, sending to each 405 00:23:29,782 --> 00:23:32,422 Speaker 1: other to work out where it's going to drop a bonafone, 406 00:23:32,422 --> 00:23:34,102 Speaker 1: where the pickup spot was going to be, that sort 407 00:23:34,102 --> 00:23:37,022 Speaker 1: of thing. So police realize a lot of planning has 408 00:23:37,022 --> 00:23:43,262 Speaker 1: gone into this escape and John is not coping well 409 00:23:43,982 --> 00:23:46,182 Speaker 1: with the outcome of the family court ruling. Put it 410 00:23:46,182 --> 00:23:47,262 Speaker 1: that way, What. 411 00:23:47,302 --> 00:23:51,262 Speaker 2: About correspondence wise during this time that we know that 412 00:23:51,302 --> 00:23:53,782 Speaker 2: they're on the run, especially when they've found this second 413 00:23:53,782 --> 00:23:57,982 Speaker 2: camp site, were John and Mike contacting anyone in their 414 00:23:58,022 --> 00:24:00,422 Speaker 2: lives via text or email or anything. 415 00:24:01,782 --> 00:24:04,702 Speaker 1: So for the most part, no. Police later sort of 416 00:24:04,742 --> 00:24:07,302 Speaker 1: pieced together a couple of things. There were the two 417 00:24:07,342 --> 00:24:10,582 Speaker 1: sightings we talked about. They were caught on a CCTV 418 00:24:10,702 --> 00:24:13,662 Speaker 1: camera at a petrol station and a little town close 419 00:24:13,742 --> 00:24:16,422 Speaker 1: to this area called Top of Nui, But other than that, 420 00:24:16,462 --> 00:24:21,182 Speaker 1: it was pretty much radio silence until the next Friday. 421 00:24:21,222 --> 00:24:24,982 Speaker 1: The twentieth and on that day, so that's the day 422 00:24:25,022 --> 00:24:27,662 Speaker 1: after police have gone and staked out and turned over 423 00:24:27,702 --> 00:24:34,862 Speaker 1: that campsite, several of John's friends get messages, goodbye messages 424 00:24:34,982 --> 00:24:40,142 Speaker 1: more or less from John. Fiona gets a goodbye message 425 00:24:40,182 --> 00:24:44,702 Speaker 1: from John and one from Mike that is just brutal. 426 00:24:45,102 --> 00:24:47,222 Speaker 1: There's no other way to put it. You are not 427 00:24:47,302 --> 00:24:52,182 Speaker 1: my mother anymore. You never just really heavy stuff. But 428 00:24:52,262 --> 00:24:54,662 Speaker 1: all of these friends get these messages, and because police 429 00:24:54,702 --> 00:24:56,622 Speaker 1: have been doing their jobs and speaking to these friends 430 00:24:56,622 --> 00:24:59,342 Speaker 1: in the meantime, they call the investigators back and say, 431 00:24:59,382 --> 00:25:01,062 Speaker 1: I've just got a text from John and it doesn't 432 00:25:01,742 --> 00:25:04,982 Speaker 1: vote well from what he's saying here. So all of 433 00:25:04,982 --> 00:25:08,542 Speaker 1: these people sort of realize, Okay, something might be happening here. 434 00:25:08,622 --> 00:25:10,942 Speaker 1: All of these people got these messages with five ten 435 00:25:10,942 --> 00:25:13,142 Speaker 1: minutes of each other. This is on the afternoon of 436 00:25:13,182 --> 00:25:18,702 Speaker 1: the twentieth, and police really up the ante on that day. 437 00:25:18,822 --> 00:25:22,142 Speaker 1: They are out in force, full light sirens, mark Carr's 438 00:25:22,182 --> 00:25:25,902 Speaker 1: presence in the area. Helicopter they pulled a helicopter off 439 00:25:26,142 --> 00:25:27,662 Speaker 1: a cannabis search to get up in the air and 440 00:25:27,662 --> 00:25:30,862 Speaker 1: see what they could find. And all of this culminates 441 00:25:30,862 --> 00:25:37,302 Speaker 1: on Friday afternoon and them finding what looks like tracks, 442 00:25:37,382 --> 00:25:40,382 Speaker 1: tire tracks and a paddock right on the coast that 443 00:25:40,702 --> 00:25:44,502 Speaker 1: end at the edge of a very talk cliff. And 444 00:25:44,582 --> 00:25:46,462 Speaker 1: it takes them a while because this, like I say, 445 00:25:46,542 --> 00:25:49,982 Speaker 1: is a remote, isolated, pretty rugged part of New Zealand. 446 00:25:50,422 --> 00:25:53,302 Speaker 1: But after a day or two they realized John's tour 447 00:25:53,302 --> 00:25:56,782 Speaker 1: egg is in the water at the bottom of these cliffs. 448 00:25:56,422 --> 00:25:58,022 Speaker 2: And they find it, don't they. 449 00:25:59,222 --> 00:26:01,062 Speaker 1: Yeah, it takes a couple of days that divers can't 450 00:26:01,062 --> 00:26:02,702 Speaker 1: get in the water. They have to I think they 451 00:26:02,942 --> 00:26:05,302 Speaker 1: had to put the camera on a rope from the 452 00:26:05,382 --> 00:26:07,622 Speaker 1: chopper in the first insance EPHN get it in the 453 00:26:07,662 --> 00:26:10,662 Speaker 1: water and see okay, yes it's in the water, but 454 00:26:10,702 --> 00:26:12,582 Speaker 1: they couldn't get in. It took them the best part 455 00:26:12,622 --> 00:26:15,782 Speaker 1: of a couple of days to get down there, or 456 00:26:16,422 --> 00:26:18,382 Speaker 1: a week maybe to get down there and find the 457 00:26:18,422 --> 00:26:20,702 Speaker 1: car and established no one was in it, and then 458 00:26:20,742 --> 00:26:23,382 Speaker 1: a couple of months to be able to get it 459 00:26:23,422 --> 00:26:27,062 Speaker 1: out of the water, by which point it is a 460 00:26:27,142 --> 00:26:28,582 Speaker 1: husk basically. 461 00:26:28,662 --> 00:26:31,222 Speaker 2: Because to explain, the water in that area as well 462 00:26:31,302 --> 00:26:34,342 Speaker 2: is very rough, isn't it so? 463 00:26:34,462 --> 00:26:38,102 Speaker 1: Fovo straight is the water we're talking It's a strait 464 00:26:38,222 --> 00:26:40,982 Speaker 1: between the bottom of the South Island, Stuart Island. It's 465 00:26:41,022 --> 00:26:43,262 Speaker 1: quite shallow a lot of sharks, but it's quite shallow, 466 00:26:43,262 --> 00:26:45,222 Speaker 1: so it's quite rough. Doesn't take much for a big 467 00:26:45,262 --> 00:26:47,742 Speaker 1: swell to build up in there. And these are eighty 468 00:26:47,742 --> 00:26:50,902 Speaker 1: meter cliffs on this part of the coast. It's right, 469 00:26:50,902 --> 00:26:53,982 Speaker 1: it's almost the very southernmost tip of the South Island. 470 00:26:54,622 --> 00:26:57,182 Speaker 1: So this car has gone down a long way into 471 00:26:57,262 --> 00:27:00,262 Speaker 1: heavy seas. It's sort of surrounded on three sides by 472 00:27:00,302 --> 00:27:02,782 Speaker 1: these cliffs, so the water is just sloshing in and out. 473 00:27:03,622 --> 00:27:06,102 Speaker 1: The police divers, as they said later, it was like 474 00:27:06,182 --> 00:27:08,862 Speaker 1: this is you can be getting thrown one way and 475 00:27:08,902 --> 00:27:10,862 Speaker 1: then thrown the other way. It's like being an washing 476 00:27:10,902 --> 00:27:13,862 Speaker 1: machine just being in this water. You've got to wait 477 00:27:13,902 --> 00:27:18,502 Speaker 1: for ideal conditions to do something like which a car 478 00:27:18,542 --> 00:27:24,702 Speaker 1: wreck out of the water there. So yeah, it's very 479 00:27:24,982 --> 00:27:25,582 Speaker 1: very rugged. 480 00:27:26,742 --> 00:27:31,502 Speaker 2: Would it be unusual in sea like that and after 481 00:27:31,582 --> 00:27:36,222 Speaker 2: that many days for there to not be any sign 482 00:27:36,222 --> 00:27:37,302 Speaker 2: of bodies in the car? 483 00:27:40,022 --> 00:27:43,102 Speaker 1: Big question on the question that right at the heart 484 00:27:43,142 --> 00:27:46,502 Speaker 1: of this case, which is what happened to John and Mike. 485 00:27:46,542 --> 00:27:49,462 Speaker 1: They weren't in the car when police found it. The 486 00:27:49,502 --> 00:27:53,622 Speaker 1: seat belts were done up, but they weren't restrained by them, 487 00:27:54,302 --> 00:27:58,022 Speaker 1: and given the state of the sea, of course, why 488 00:27:58,062 --> 00:28:00,062 Speaker 1: would a body last in a car for so long? 489 00:28:00,862 --> 00:28:03,542 Speaker 1: You could totally see how that would happen. But a 490 00:28:03,582 --> 00:28:07,062 Speaker 1: lot of evidence was heard about the tire tracks at 491 00:28:07,062 --> 00:28:09,022 Speaker 1: the top and the seat belts at the bottom, and 492 00:28:09,062 --> 00:28:11,462 Speaker 1: the car and what that pointed to in terms of 493 00:28:11,542 --> 00:28:13,622 Speaker 1: John and Mike being in the car or not. Because 494 00:28:13,622 --> 00:28:16,942 Speaker 1: if they go over the edge, they die. It's as 495 00:28:16,982 --> 00:28:22,462 Speaker 1: simple as that. It's a big cliff. But given John's 496 00:28:22,542 --> 00:28:24,502 Speaker 1: past and what police knew about him and what they 497 00:28:24,542 --> 00:28:27,462 Speaker 1: knew about the relationship between John and Mike, the idea 498 00:28:27,502 --> 00:28:30,542 Speaker 1: that they might have staged all of this was very 499 00:28:30,622 --> 00:28:32,702 Speaker 1: much a possibility, and that was looked into a lot 500 00:28:32,742 --> 00:28:36,502 Speaker 1: as well. So there was a lot of police work done. 501 00:28:36,662 --> 00:28:38,902 Speaker 1: What are these tie tracks, like? How fast were they going? 502 00:28:38,902 --> 00:28:40,742 Speaker 1: Could someone have not been in the car? Could this 503 00:28:40,782 --> 00:28:44,942 Speaker 1: have been staged? The seat belts were they ever restraining someone? 504 00:28:45,102 --> 00:28:47,062 Speaker 1: Could someone have been in them and washed away? Or 505 00:28:47,102 --> 00:28:49,302 Speaker 1: were they done up to make it look like someone 506 00:28:49,342 --> 00:28:52,222 Speaker 1: had been washed away? All these sorts of things became 507 00:28:52,342 --> 00:28:55,062 Speaker 1: the number one priority for police. 508 00:28:55,582 --> 00:28:57,942 Speaker 2: Like you say, there were these two main theories that 509 00:28:57,942 --> 00:29:01,982 Speaker 2: they were looking into and there was a coronial inquest. 510 00:29:02,542 --> 00:29:04,862 Speaker 2: To kind of look at that, I think it's really 511 00:29:04,902 --> 00:29:08,302 Speaker 2: interesting how you point out that usually a coronial inquest 512 00:29:08,382 --> 00:29:10,982 Speaker 2: is in a fact finding mission, but this one became 513 00:29:11,062 --> 00:29:15,022 Speaker 2: almost like a trial, like which of these two scenarios 514 00:29:15,062 --> 00:29:16,022 Speaker 2: is the most likely. 515 00:29:17,382 --> 00:29:20,502 Speaker 1: Yeah, So the podcast the audio that we use for 516 00:29:20,702 --> 00:29:23,382 Speaker 1: most of the podcasts is from a coronial hearing that 517 00:29:23,422 --> 00:29:26,302 Speaker 1: was held in christ Church last year, so like eight 518 00:29:26,422 --> 00:29:32,022 Speaker 1: years after the fact, and at that point the police 519 00:29:32,222 --> 00:29:35,382 Speaker 1: had arrived at the conclusion that they were most likely dead. 520 00:29:36,262 --> 00:29:40,342 Speaker 1: So the lawyers involved in the coronial hearing were one 521 00:29:40,502 --> 00:29:43,542 Speaker 1: sort of neutral party, a council assistant, a lawyer for 522 00:29:43,542 --> 00:29:46,502 Speaker 1: the police, and a private investigator who tould have been 523 00:29:46,502 --> 00:29:48,902 Speaker 1: working on behalf of the family, not a lawyer, but 524 00:29:48,982 --> 00:29:53,422 Speaker 1: an X cop, you know, an experienced investigator. And Yeah, 525 00:29:53,582 --> 00:29:57,782 Speaker 1: like you say, because police had more or less reached 526 00:29:57,782 --> 00:30:01,902 Speaker 1: a conclusion, they kind of prosecuted their case. For lack 527 00:30:01,942 --> 00:30:03,822 Speaker 1: of a better phrase, when it came to it, it 528 00:30:03,862 --> 00:30:08,542 Speaker 1: was they cross examined you know, defense quote unquote witnesses 529 00:30:09,182 --> 00:30:11,582 Speaker 1: like you would see in a I didn't actually cover 530 00:30:11,662 --> 00:30:15,462 Speaker 1: the case. My colleague Shannon Redstool, who was the co 531 00:30:15,622 --> 00:30:17,902 Speaker 1: producer and presenter of this podcast. She covered the case 532 00:30:17,942 --> 00:30:19,862 Speaker 1: at the time, and that was sort of based on 533 00:30:19,862 --> 00:30:21,742 Speaker 1: her insight, Like she sort of said as much in 534 00:30:21,782 --> 00:30:24,822 Speaker 1: the pot, Like, I felt a little bit uneasy at 535 00:30:24,822 --> 00:30:28,542 Speaker 1: the extent to which this became as adversarial as it did. 536 00:30:29,662 --> 00:30:32,742 Speaker 1: It was a strange It's not the first time. You know, 537 00:30:32,862 --> 00:30:35,982 Speaker 1: lawyers are lawyers, and court systems are court systems. These 538 00:30:35,982 --> 00:30:41,142 Speaker 1: things can sort of revert to type. But yeah, it 539 00:30:41,222 --> 00:30:45,502 Speaker 1: became dare I say it sort of unhelpfully adversarial. 540 00:30:46,742 --> 00:30:50,062 Speaker 2: You've mentioned the seat belts, which became a big focus. 541 00:30:51,302 --> 00:30:54,142 Speaker 2: The other focus that I want to mention before we 542 00:30:54,182 --> 00:30:58,302 Speaker 2: move on to the family's theory is the brake pedals, 543 00:30:58,382 --> 00:31:02,062 Speaker 2: because obviously, if it was a murder suicide, they were 544 00:31:02,142 --> 00:31:04,742 Speaker 2: kind of questioning why you would be breaking at the 545 00:31:04,862 --> 00:31:05,622 Speaker 2: edge of the cliff. 546 00:31:06,502 --> 00:31:09,142 Speaker 1: Yeah, so this goes back to the tracks that they 547 00:31:09,142 --> 00:31:12,502 Speaker 1: found at the top of the cliff. Were three sets 548 00:31:12,542 --> 00:31:15,502 Speaker 1: of tracks. One was irrelevant, police thought, two of them 549 00:31:15,542 --> 00:31:18,542 Speaker 1: more or less went to the edge, one they surmised 550 00:31:18,742 --> 00:31:22,182 Speaker 1: was a practice run, and then there was the tracks 551 00:31:22,182 --> 00:31:23,982 Speaker 1: that went all the way to the edge. These are 552 00:31:24,022 --> 00:31:25,982 Speaker 1: the tracks that the car made as it went over 553 00:31:26,022 --> 00:31:29,982 Speaker 1: the cliff, and police found that about ten meters from 554 00:31:30,022 --> 00:31:34,462 Speaker 1: the edge of the cliff, the tracks showed signs of 555 00:31:34,582 --> 00:31:37,782 Speaker 1: breaking someone applying the brake pedal, which would mean someone 556 00:31:37,862 --> 00:31:41,062 Speaker 1: has to be in the car at that point, So 557 00:31:41,462 --> 00:31:44,502 Speaker 1: using that as sort of one constant, if you like, 558 00:31:44,982 --> 00:31:47,822 Speaker 1: they then looked at the edge of the cliff where 559 00:31:47,862 --> 00:31:51,582 Speaker 1: the tracks stopped. The track stopped about three or four 560 00:31:51,622 --> 00:31:55,462 Speaker 1: meters from the edge. The cliff sort of ran downhill 561 00:31:55,542 --> 00:31:57,142 Speaker 1: slightly right at the edge, so the car has sort 562 00:31:57,142 --> 00:32:00,022 Speaker 1: of been airborne. It didn't touch the ground all the 563 00:32:00,062 --> 00:32:02,622 Speaker 1: way to the edge, if that makes sense. Three or 564 00:32:02,622 --> 00:32:06,302 Speaker 1: four meters before the edge the track disappeared, So police 565 00:32:06,342 --> 00:32:09,062 Speaker 1: can do a calculation and say, this is how fast 566 00:32:09,422 --> 00:32:11,982 Speaker 1: this vehicle that ways this much must have been going 567 00:32:12,102 --> 00:32:15,142 Speaker 1: would have had to have been going in order to 568 00:32:15,182 --> 00:32:20,062 Speaker 1: become airborne at that point. If a vehicles going that fast, 569 00:32:21,182 --> 00:32:23,902 Speaker 1: could a person have applied the brakes ten meters from 570 00:32:23,902 --> 00:32:27,502 Speaker 1: the edge and then got themselves out of the vehicle 571 00:32:28,662 --> 00:32:31,982 Speaker 1: and not roll over the edge at that speed, And 572 00:32:32,142 --> 00:32:34,942 Speaker 1: the police concluded that they couldn't have. They would have 573 00:32:34,982 --> 00:32:38,502 Speaker 1: needed probably twenty meters to throw themselves out of the 574 00:32:38,582 --> 00:32:41,422 Speaker 1: vehicle and stay on the cliff. Basically the me metum 575 00:32:41,502 --> 00:32:43,222 Speaker 1: was going to carry them over if you jumped out 576 00:32:43,222 --> 00:32:49,382 Speaker 1: that close, which seemed pretty decisive or conclusive. You know, 577 00:32:50,222 --> 00:32:55,502 Speaker 1: it's maths. You couldn't be in the vehicle and get 578 00:32:55,542 --> 00:32:58,502 Speaker 1: yourself safely out of it if you applied the brakes. 579 00:32:59,902 --> 00:33:04,542 Speaker 1: So that was one of the key elements, the key 580 00:33:04,582 --> 00:33:07,702 Speaker 1: straws to their case that John and Mike were dead. 581 00:33:07,862 --> 00:33:09,902 Speaker 1: They just couldn't have got out of the car that 582 00:33:10,022 --> 00:33:11,542 Speaker 1: close to the edge, and they had to be in 583 00:33:11,582 --> 00:33:14,582 Speaker 1: the car that close to the edge. 584 00:33:16,982 --> 00:33:19,502 Speaker 2: After the break. We heard one theory about what happened 585 00:33:19,542 --> 00:33:22,982 Speaker 2: to Mike and John. But what is Fiona, Mike's mother, thinking, 586 00:33:23,462 --> 00:33:26,262 Speaker 2: and why does she believe they could still be alive. 587 00:33:30,062 --> 00:33:34,062 Speaker 2: Fiona isn't just hopeful that Mike is alive, she is 588 00:33:34,302 --> 00:33:39,422 Speaker 2: adamant she is. Can you explain her theory and what 589 00:33:39,502 --> 00:33:40,462 Speaker 2: she thinks happened. 590 00:33:41,342 --> 00:33:44,182 Speaker 1: So, as I said, there were two lawyers at the 591 00:33:44,222 --> 00:33:47,222 Speaker 1: coronial hearing and a private investigator who is working for 592 00:33:47,862 --> 00:33:52,542 Speaker 1: Fiona and Peter, and his job was more or less 593 00:33:52,542 --> 00:33:55,102 Speaker 1: to put a defense case for lack of a better word, 594 00:33:55,462 --> 00:33:57,862 Speaker 1: at this hearing, and that was based on the fact 595 00:33:57,862 --> 00:34:00,462 Speaker 1: that they believe adamantly that John and Mike are alive. 596 00:34:01,342 --> 00:34:06,302 Speaker 1: Fiona believed in the first instance, John was hiding money 597 00:34:06,622 --> 00:34:10,742 Speaker 1: in order to finance such an operation. He was a 598 00:34:10,902 --> 00:34:14,262 Speaker 1: very skilled guy. He was a helicopter pilot, he was 599 00:34:14,302 --> 00:34:18,942 Speaker 1: a good sailor. He had some contacts overseas. He was 600 00:34:19,022 --> 00:34:23,262 Speaker 1: from Sweden initially, and that's another part of the story. 601 00:34:23,342 --> 00:34:25,902 Speaker 1: His life back in Sweden before he came to the 602 00:34:25,902 --> 00:34:29,302 Speaker 1: Southern Hemisphere, and basically the kind of guy who could 603 00:34:29,302 --> 00:34:33,182 Speaker 1: have pulled something like this off. She thought. So with 604 00:34:33,262 --> 00:34:37,782 Speaker 1: all of those behavioral factors in mind, the family then focused, 605 00:34:38,222 --> 00:34:40,382 Speaker 1: But police did on the tire tracks, on the seat 606 00:34:40,382 --> 00:34:44,262 Speaker 1: belts in the car. That was the forensic element of 607 00:34:44,302 --> 00:34:47,742 Speaker 1: the case that they were really interested in. The seat 608 00:34:47,742 --> 00:34:49,982 Speaker 1: belts were done up like I said, and the police 609 00:34:50,022 --> 00:34:53,902 Speaker 1: divers when they first got to the car they said, 610 00:34:54,102 --> 00:34:58,062 Speaker 1: when we opened it, the seat belts were done up tight, 611 00:34:58,342 --> 00:35:01,622 Speaker 1: super tight. And when the seat belt experts that they 612 00:35:01,662 --> 00:35:05,102 Speaker 1: consulted looked into this, they looked at, oh, the seat 613 00:35:05,102 --> 00:35:07,262 Speaker 1: belts haven't recoiled. Turns out I didn't know this, but 614 00:35:07,342 --> 00:35:09,302 Speaker 1: seat belts if you're in an accident and there is 615 00:35:09,302 --> 00:35:11,102 Speaker 1: an impact and you've got your seat belt done up, 616 00:35:11,382 --> 00:35:13,702 Speaker 1: the seat belt will go tight to hold you in place, 617 00:35:13,742 --> 00:35:16,982 Speaker 1: and then it will recoil, basically go loose so that 618 00:35:17,022 --> 00:35:19,542 Speaker 1: you're not held in as you were at the point 619 00:35:19,582 --> 00:35:22,622 Speaker 1: of impact. And these seat belts hadn't done that. There 620 00:35:22,662 --> 00:35:25,942 Speaker 1: was no sign of wear on them that pointed to 621 00:35:26,022 --> 00:35:29,702 Speaker 1: a body being restrained by them, while something like a 622 00:35:29,702 --> 00:35:31,822 Speaker 1: car going over a cliff and having that impact in 623 00:35:31,862 --> 00:35:35,462 Speaker 1: the ocean happened. So how are they in the car? 624 00:35:35,502 --> 00:35:39,022 Speaker 1: Who did up the seat belts? And this was another 625 00:35:39,062 --> 00:35:43,102 Speaker 1: point of contention. Basically the police ventured a counter theory 626 00:35:43,102 --> 00:35:44,782 Speaker 1: that maybe they did them up and sat on top 627 00:35:44,822 --> 00:35:48,382 Speaker 1: of them in order to make it look like all 628 00:35:48,422 --> 00:35:52,742 Speaker 1: of this, and maybe a simpler explanation is they just 629 00:35:52,782 --> 00:35:54,182 Speaker 1: did them up to make it look like them and 630 00:35:54,582 --> 00:35:57,782 Speaker 1: they weren't in them when the car went over the cliff, 631 00:35:58,142 --> 00:36:02,022 Speaker 1: so it was definitely not clear from the seat belts 632 00:36:02,022 --> 00:36:04,462 Speaker 1: that they were in the car. It was a pretty 633 00:36:04,462 --> 00:36:08,662 Speaker 1: strong encounter to the police and the tire tracks evidence 634 00:36:08,702 --> 00:36:13,062 Speaker 1: that they put forward, and it really did help and 635 00:36:13,102 --> 00:36:16,782 Speaker 1: support Fiona and Peter's case in believing they were still alive. 636 00:36:18,022 --> 00:36:20,982 Speaker 2: I think perhaps the biggest bit of evidence I heard 637 00:36:21,142 --> 00:36:24,902 Speaker 2: that supports their theory is the formal life. You were 638 00:36:24,902 --> 00:36:29,942 Speaker 2: referring to John's former partner. He had two sons with 639 00:36:29,982 --> 00:36:33,262 Speaker 2: another woman called Anne, which is a whole other story, 640 00:36:33,262 --> 00:36:35,502 Speaker 2: but can you give us a brief overview of what 641 00:36:35,742 --> 00:36:36,582 Speaker 2: happened there. 642 00:36:37,942 --> 00:36:40,782 Speaker 1: Yes, so, John, as I said, he's from Sweden originally, 643 00:36:41,542 --> 00:36:45,822 Speaker 1: and this was mentioned at the time of their disappearance somewhat, 644 00:36:45,862 --> 00:36:49,542 Speaker 1: and that John had one or two aliases, and there 645 00:36:49,542 --> 00:36:53,462 Speaker 1: were Swedish names. Lund lu In dh was one of 646 00:36:53,462 --> 00:36:56,862 Speaker 1: the surnames that he used as original surname. But it 647 00:36:56,902 --> 00:37:02,302 Speaker 1: turned out through this coronial hearing that John had had 648 00:37:02,582 --> 00:37:06,582 Speaker 1: a former life, a wife and two children, and he'd 649 00:37:06,622 --> 00:37:10,942 Speaker 1: worked out on them. Not dis similar circumstances to what 650 00:37:10,982 --> 00:37:13,742 Speaker 1: had happened with Mike. He met his wife, who we 651 00:37:13,782 --> 00:37:16,942 Speaker 1: called Anne in the podcast. They were all they had 652 00:37:17,062 --> 00:37:19,622 Speaker 1: everything suppressed. She was Danish, she was Swedish. They met 653 00:37:19,662 --> 00:37:23,782 Speaker 1: in Greenland. He was flying helicopters in Greenland. Again your 654 00:37:23,822 --> 00:37:26,022 Speaker 1: average place to be a helicopter pilot, that's the kind 655 00:37:26,022 --> 00:37:30,742 Speaker 1: of guy he was. They had two sons, and shortly 656 00:37:30,822 --> 00:37:33,702 Speaker 1: before the second son was born, John just up and 657 00:37:33,782 --> 00:37:38,422 Speaker 1: left and he was gone, and that was that. There 658 00:37:38,462 --> 00:37:43,862 Speaker 1: was a protracted hearing in Danish court about what John 659 00:37:43,982 --> 00:37:48,702 Speaker 1: was responsible for child custody, you know, paying child custody wise, 660 00:37:49,302 --> 00:37:53,182 Speaker 1: and John acted strangely, maybe even stranger than he did 661 00:37:53,422 --> 00:37:55,262 Speaker 1: in this case. He was sort of write long letters 662 00:37:55,262 --> 00:37:58,502 Speaker 1: to the judge accusing the children's mother of all sorts 663 00:37:58,502 --> 00:38:00,862 Speaker 1: of things, just telling them to drop their kids off 664 00:38:00,862 --> 00:38:02,382 Speaker 1: and I'll take them, you know how it is, like 665 00:38:02,902 --> 00:38:08,022 Speaker 1: ridiculous suggestions like that, and it ended with him basically leaving. 666 00:38:08,022 --> 00:38:09,902 Speaker 1: That's how he ended up in the Southern Hemisphere. He 667 00:38:09,902 --> 00:38:13,142 Speaker 1: moved to at about this time. This is in the nineties. 668 00:38:13,742 --> 00:38:15,502 Speaker 1: But the way in which he went about all of 669 00:38:15,502 --> 00:38:18,822 Speaker 1: this like just kind of dispensing with one life and 670 00:38:18,862 --> 00:38:22,022 Speaker 1: starting up another one. He's the kind of guy who's 671 00:38:22,062 --> 00:38:24,582 Speaker 1: done something like this before. So yeah, it goes to 672 00:38:26,062 --> 00:38:30,062 Speaker 1: a pattern of behavior. This is not your average guy 673 00:38:30,102 --> 00:38:34,062 Speaker 1: who panics, say, and might drive himself and his stepson 674 00:38:34,462 --> 00:38:35,582 Speaker 1: to a murder suicide. 675 00:38:36,302 --> 00:38:38,622 Speaker 2: Did Anne, I know that's the name you've given her, 676 00:38:38,662 --> 00:38:41,982 Speaker 2: But did Anne give any insight into whether she thinks 677 00:38:42,062 --> 00:38:42,982 Speaker 2: John might be alive? 678 00:38:43,902 --> 00:38:48,382 Speaker 1: She did, and that again supported Fiona because her position 679 00:38:48,622 --> 00:38:51,702 Speaker 1: was I absolutely believe John could be a life. He 680 00:38:51,782 --> 00:38:53,542 Speaker 1: is the kind of prison, who could do this because 681 00:38:53,622 --> 00:38:57,062 Speaker 1: of what we've just said, he's done something similar to me. 682 00:38:57,622 --> 00:38:59,302 Speaker 1: He's the kind of guy who can do this. He 683 00:38:59,822 --> 00:39:02,622 Speaker 1: was from a middle class family in Sweden, John, I 684 00:39:02,622 --> 00:39:06,222 Speaker 1: think he was the second of four kids, and he'd 685 00:39:06,222 --> 00:39:08,902 Speaker 1: had an older brother who inherited the family business. Sort 686 00:39:08,902 --> 00:39:11,022 Speaker 1: of fell out with his family foot head. He was better. 687 00:39:11,102 --> 00:39:13,382 Speaker 1: It was a furniture business, and I'm a better carpenter 688 00:39:13,382 --> 00:39:20,062 Speaker 1: than my brother. That kind of hubris, I guess, that 689 00:39:20,142 --> 00:39:27,102 Speaker 1: kind of self certainty. Confidence, Yeah, confidence is a nicer 690 00:39:27,102 --> 00:39:32,262 Speaker 1: way of putting it. That he was a very driven character. John. 691 00:39:32,262 --> 00:39:33,942 Speaker 1: He was very certain of what he wanted and what 692 00:39:33,982 --> 00:39:36,302 Speaker 1: he was going to do, and that he was right 693 00:39:36,342 --> 00:39:42,222 Speaker 1: about things in his own thoughts, and that played out 694 00:39:42,382 --> 00:39:48,062 Speaker 1: in his first relationship with and their children. And gave 695 00:39:48,102 --> 00:39:50,902 Speaker 1: a statement like I say, she couldn't really speak to 696 00:39:50,902 --> 00:39:53,582 Speaker 1: the fact of the case. She hadn't seen John for years, 697 00:39:54,102 --> 00:39:57,742 Speaker 1: but her exact quote was something like, I don't believe 698 00:39:57,742 --> 00:40:01,142 Speaker 1: he's the suicidal type. He lived a good life. He's 699 00:40:01,182 --> 00:40:05,782 Speaker 1: not the kind of guy to do this, and that helped. 700 00:40:05,822 --> 00:40:08,742 Speaker 1: That helped Fiona and Peter and their case quote unquote 701 00:40:08,782 --> 00:40:12,542 Speaker 1: to try argue to the coroner that John and Mike 702 00:40:12,582 --> 00:40:15,262 Speaker 1: were alive. There was not enough evidence to rule them dead. 703 00:40:16,422 --> 00:40:20,142 Speaker 2: Have there been any credible sightings of John and Mike 704 00:40:20,222 --> 00:40:21,942 Speaker 2: since twenty fifteen since they went missing. 705 00:40:24,982 --> 00:40:27,662 Speaker 1: Depends how you define credible. Some people think there have 706 00:40:27,742 --> 00:40:30,662 Speaker 1: been and others don't. There were a whole bunch of 707 00:40:30,702 --> 00:40:33,302 Speaker 1: sightings that came in when police first went to the 708 00:40:33,302 --> 00:40:35,022 Speaker 1: media and said have you seen these guys, But the 709 00:40:35,022 --> 00:40:38,182 Speaker 1: bulk of them were in Southland, and they were before 710 00:40:38,302 --> 00:40:40,862 Speaker 1: on or before the twentieth when the car went over 711 00:40:40,902 --> 00:40:45,942 Speaker 1: the cliff. There were a handful that came in after that, 712 00:40:46,502 --> 00:40:49,742 Speaker 1: some of them overseas, and a few of those were 713 00:40:49,742 --> 00:40:55,822 Speaker 1: looked into and disregarded or ruled out for whatever reason. 714 00:40:56,422 --> 00:40:58,582 Speaker 1: But there was one in particular that we get into 715 00:40:58,742 --> 00:41:03,382 Speaker 1: in the podcast from a woman, a New Zealand woman 716 00:41:03,422 --> 00:41:07,062 Speaker 1: who was on holiday in Bali, little island just off 717 00:41:07,102 --> 00:41:11,142 Speaker 1: the coast of Bali, who was adamant John and Mike 718 00:41:11,262 --> 00:41:15,982 Speaker 1: one day several months after they disappeared. This is June, 719 00:41:16,022 --> 00:41:20,462 Speaker 1: I think twenty fifteen, and she gave evidence at the hearing. 720 00:41:20,542 --> 00:41:25,302 Speaker 1: She was the only post disappearance eye witness to give 721 00:41:25,342 --> 00:41:30,862 Speaker 1: any evidence. She gave pretty good descriptions of an older guy. 722 00:41:31,382 --> 00:41:33,342 Speaker 1: He was wearing a backpack. She said he had a 723 00:41:33,382 --> 00:41:37,342 Speaker 1: little bit of a stoop and a boy, an East 724 00:41:37,342 --> 00:41:39,942 Speaker 1: Asian boy who was quite big. Mike was quite big 725 00:41:40,342 --> 00:41:42,342 Speaker 1: for his age, so not that much smaller than John. 726 00:41:42,382 --> 00:41:44,782 Speaker 1: He was eleven or twelve. I think at that point 727 00:41:45,422 --> 00:41:48,182 Speaker 1: standing out, you know that there was not a usual 728 00:41:48,262 --> 00:41:50,702 Speaker 1: pairing you might see on a holiday island that's full 729 00:41:50,742 --> 00:41:53,022 Speaker 1: of Ossie's and Kiwis, you know, taking a winter break. 730 00:41:53,942 --> 00:41:54,862 Speaker 1: That was one. 731 00:41:55,542 --> 00:41:56,302 Speaker 2: I'm interested in. 732 00:41:56,862 --> 00:41:59,502 Speaker 1: Mike's friend that's the other one. So it's not a 733 00:41:59,582 --> 00:42:05,422 Speaker 1: sighting per se. But Mike's friend who he went to 734 00:42:05,422 --> 00:42:08,182 Speaker 1: school with in Queenstown, he's the same age. He has 735 00:42:08,262 --> 00:42:12,742 Speaker 1: name suppression. But he eventually told police that he thought 736 00:42:12,782 --> 00:42:18,022 Speaker 1: he'd had some contact from Mike over gaming consoles. Mike 737 00:42:18,102 --> 00:42:21,622 Speaker 1: was a big gamer, played online multiplayer things, you know, 738 00:42:21,662 --> 00:42:23,382 Speaker 1: talking to your mates, playing a shoot him up game, 739 00:42:23,422 --> 00:42:27,182 Speaker 1: that kind of thing. And Mike's friend had said I 740 00:42:27,262 --> 00:42:31,102 Speaker 1: was contacted by somebody on one of these platforms using 741 00:42:31,182 --> 00:42:34,742 Speaker 1: Mike's handle, like a very specific user name that was 742 00:42:34,822 --> 00:42:39,702 Speaker 1: Mike's name, swag gamer one two three. I think it 743 00:42:39,782 --> 00:42:43,382 Speaker 1: was from memory and no one would know that who 744 00:42:43,422 --> 00:42:47,222 Speaker 1: would use that handle except Mike. So police looked into 745 00:42:47,222 --> 00:42:49,342 Speaker 1: this pretty hard. It turned out they couldn't find a 746 00:42:49,382 --> 00:42:51,982 Speaker 1: server that might have kept something like this. He didn't 747 00:42:51,982 --> 00:42:54,582 Speaker 1: take a screenshot at the time Mike's friend, so there 748 00:42:54,622 --> 00:43:00,462 Speaker 1: was no documentary evidence to help support this. Police concluded 749 00:43:00,542 --> 00:43:04,822 Speaker 1: ultimately they thought Mike's friend wanted to help, He wanted 750 00:43:04,862 --> 00:43:08,022 Speaker 1: his friend to be alive, and was in good faith 751 00:43:08,782 --> 00:43:11,502 Speaker 1: telling police what he thought he thought, but that it 752 00:43:11,542 --> 00:43:15,622 Speaker 1: probably wasn't the case. If it was the case, then 753 00:43:16,262 --> 00:43:20,262 Speaker 1: that would be a pretty pretty reliable sighting quote unquote 754 00:43:20,262 --> 00:43:22,222 Speaker 1: off Mike. No one else would use a name like 755 00:43:22,262 --> 00:43:27,982 Speaker 1: that or contact this particular person in any form if 756 00:43:27,982 --> 00:43:32,342 Speaker 1: it wasn't Mike. So neither of these sightings were concrete. 757 00:43:33,022 --> 00:43:38,422 Speaker 1: But I guess both sides, as we've established there were sides. 758 00:43:38,462 --> 00:43:42,182 Speaker 1: Both sides could use them to their own ends and say, look, 759 00:43:42,222 --> 00:43:44,862 Speaker 1: this does or does not point to Mike and John 760 00:43:44,902 --> 00:43:45,382 Speaker 1: being alive. 761 00:43:46,222 --> 00:43:49,022 Speaker 2: So what did the coroner find after hearing all of this? 762 00:43:49,902 --> 00:43:53,302 Speaker 1: We don't know. The hearing proper finished last year, but 763 00:43:53,622 --> 00:43:55,862 Speaker 1: there is about one more day's worth of evidence to hear. 764 00:43:56,622 --> 00:43:58,942 Speaker 1: That's going to involve some peer review of some of 765 00:43:58,982 --> 00:44:03,022 Speaker 1: the specialist reports at the scene where the car and 766 00:44:03,062 --> 00:44:08,142 Speaker 1: over the cliff, and after that the coroner will have 767 00:44:08,182 --> 00:44:11,182 Speaker 1: a decision to make. In New Zealand, as I with Australia, 768 00:44:11,462 --> 00:44:14,302 Speaker 1: the thresholder's balance of probabilities, it's not a beyond reasonable 769 00:44:14,342 --> 00:44:18,302 Speaker 1: doubt test. But yeah, the question he has to consider 770 00:44:18,422 --> 00:44:22,982 Speaker 1: is are they more likely alive or dead? And that's 771 00:44:23,022 --> 00:44:23,342 Speaker 1: to come. 772 00:44:24,182 --> 00:44:27,462 Speaker 2: I'm assuming that Fiona either way is going to be 773 00:44:27,462 --> 00:44:30,142 Speaker 2: sticking to her guns because Mike, if he is alive, 774 00:44:30,222 --> 00:44:33,822 Speaker 2: would be about twenty now in twenty twenty four. 775 00:44:34,422 --> 00:44:35,702 Speaker 1: Yeah. 776 00:44:36,142 --> 00:44:39,862 Speaker 2: Is she hopeful that one day, somewhere down the track 777 00:44:39,902 --> 00:44:42,302 Speaker 2: he'll eventually reach out or what's she hoping for? 778 00:44:43,662 --> 00:44:49,662 Speaker 1: Fiona mostly wants Mike to be happy. I think she wants. 779 00:44:50,702 --> 00:44:53,702 Speaker 1: There was this quite touching moment at the end of 780 00:44:53,742 --> 00:44:57,582 Speaker 1: her statement where she said and her partner Peter said 781 00:44:57,582 --> 00:45:00,062 Speaker 1: as much when he gave evidence where they kind of 782 00:45:00,062 --> 00:45:03,062 Speaker 1: talked about what would we do if one day they 783 00:45:03,102 --> 00:45:05,982 Speaker 1: turned up or we found out they were alive or 784 00:45:05,982 --> 00:45:10,062 Speaker 1: something like that, and Peter kind of thought out loud, look, mate, 785 00:45:10,462 --> 00:45:12,342 Speaker 1: maybe if we knew they were alive and happy, we'd 786 00:45:12,422 --> 00:45:14,862 Speaker 1: leave them where they are. We just it's not like 787 00:45:14,902 --> 00:45:17,462 Speaker 1: we want them back, like it's a position that we've lost. 788 00:45:18,062 --> 00:45:20,502 Speaker 1: We just want them to be alive. And well that's 789 00:45:20,542 --> 00:45:24,422 Speaker 1: all so yep. I agree. She is sticking to her guns. 790 00:45:24,462 --> 00:45:28,822 Speaker 1: I mean, nothing in lieu of bodies, which is not 791 00:45:29,142 --> 00:45:32,102 Speaker 1: possible really at this point, would change her mind, I 792 00:45:32,102 --> 00:45:37,862 Speaker 1: don't think. But she's not wishing her I mean, I 793 00:45:37,862 --> 00:45:39,702 Speaker 1: think she would love her sound to come back, of course, 794 00:45:39,782 --> 00:45:41,942 Speaker 1: but she's not wishing for that. The most, she wants 795 00:45:41,942 --> 00:45:49,062 Speaker 1: them to be alive and well. 796 00:45:49,102 --> 00:45:51,982 Speaker 2: Thanks to Mike for helping us tell this story. True 797 00:45:51,982 --> 00:45:55,342 Speaker 2: Crime Conversations is a Muma MEA podcast hosted and produced 798 00:45:55,382 --> 00:45:58,702 Speaker 2: by Me, Jamma Bath and Charlie Blackman, with audio design 799 00:45:58,942 --> 00:46:02,142 Speaker 2: by Scott Stronik. Thanks so much for listening. I'll be 800 00:46:02,182 --> 00:46:04,782 Speaker 2: back next week with another True Crime Conversation 801 00:46:10,662 --> 00:46:10,702 Speaker 1: Es