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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mea podcast. Mama Mea acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waders. This podcast was

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Speaker 1: recorded on Hi. I'm Jemma Bath, host of True Crime Conversations,

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Speaker 1: and this is the final episode of our Hot Pod

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Speaker 1: summer series. Last year, we talked to criminologist Zanthe Mallett

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Speaker 1: about the case of Kelly Lane, who was convicted of

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Speaker 1: murdering her newborn daughter in nineteen ninety six. Kelly was

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Speaker 1: sentenced to thirteen years and five months in prison in

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Speaker 1: twenty eleven, but in March last year, her parole was

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Speaker 1: denied because of the nobody no parole laws introduced in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty two. Since Kelly's daughter, Teagan, has never been found,

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Speaker 1: the parole board ruled that she should stay in prison

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Speaker 1: simply based on those laws. Kelly has always maintained her

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Speaker 1: innocence and her case is drawn comparisons to the wrongful

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Speaker 1: conviction of Lindy Chamberlain. So is she guilty or has

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Speaker 1: she been wrongfully convicted? And would she be released? Have

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Speaker 1: a listen to the episode and let us know what

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Speaker 1: you think about this ongoing case. It's September nineteen ninety

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Speaker 1: six and Kelly Lane is at a wedding in Manly,

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Speaker 1: on Sydney's Northern Beaches with her boyfriend's duncan. She's wearing

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Speaker 1: a white suit and she's smiling. She looks relaxed, happy

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Speaker 1: and in the moment, celebrating her friend's special day. Just

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Speaker 1: a few hours earlier, she'd been discharged from hospital after

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Speaker 1: having her second baby, a little girl called Teagan. But

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Speaker 1: no one knew, not her boyfriend, not her parents, not

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Speaker 1: her friends. They didn't even know she was pregnant. They

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Speaker 1: didn't know she'd had a baby the year before too,

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Speaker 1: who she gave up for adoption, But this time there's

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Speaker 1: no official adoption. According to Kelly, gave Teagan to her

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Speaker 1: father to raise before heading to the wedding, a man

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Speaker 1: named Andrew Norris or Morris. She's not quite sure who

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Speaker 1: she had a brief affair with, But Andrew has never

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Speaker 1: been found, neither has baby Teagan. It wasn't until Kelly

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Speaker 1: had a third child, another secret pregnancy, and another baby

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Speaker 1: she gave up for adoption that a docks worker started

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Speaker 1: digging he could account for her first child? But where

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Speaker 1: was Teagan?

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Speaker 2: Did you kill child?

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Speaker 1: No? I didn't, not I did not do anything like

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Speaker 1: that someone else. No, No, A jury decided otherwise, But

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Speaker 1: did they get it wrong. Kelly Lane's story has been

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Speaker 1: compared to the wrongful conviction of Lindy Chamberlain. It's been

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Speaker 1: pulled apart and analyzed for years. So is she a

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Speaker 1: baby killer or is she a woman misunderstood? I'm Jimmy

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Speaker 1: Bath and this is True Crime Conversations a Muma mea

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Speaker 1: podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to

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Speaker 1: the people who know the most about them. Kelly Lane

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Speaker 1: maintains her innocence. In twenty eighteen, she reached out to

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Speaker 1: Australian journalist Karen Meldrum Hannah, begging her to dig into

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Speaker 1: her case and her story for the ABC to reveal

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Speaker 1: what she says is the truth.

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Speaker 2: I could sit here Caro and do my time. I'm

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Speaker 2: halfway through, but no way.

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Speaker 1: I'm happy for you to go to the end.

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Speaker 2: End. I want you to go to the end. Okay,

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Speaker 2: forward to it.

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Speaker 1: An investigation into Teagan's disappearance began in early two thousand

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Speaker 1: and one, more than four years after Kelly gave birth

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Speaker 1: to her. In two thousand and five, an inquest was

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Speaker 1: held Coroner concluded that Tegan was most likely dead, referring

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Speaker 1: the case to the Unsolved Homicide Squad. In November two

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Speaker 1: thousand and nine, Kelly Lane was charged with murder, with

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Speaker 1: her trial getting underway the following year. She was found guilty,

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Speaker 1: sentenced to eighteen years behind bars with a minimum parole

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Speaker 1: period of thirteen years. That date, May twenty twenty four

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Speaker 1: is fast approaching, but the new South Wales State Parole

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Speaker 1: Authority has already knocked back her bid for release because

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Speaker 1: of the no body, no Parole laws that we introduced

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Speaker 1: only a couple of years ago. Kelly has served time

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Speaker 1: in some of the state's toughest prisons. She's forty eight now.

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Speaker 1: She has a teenage daughter waiting for her on the outside,

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Speaker 1: her fourth baby. Today's guest criminologist, doctor Zanthey Mallett, has

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Speaker 1: been in contact with Kelly personally for many years. She

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Speaker 1: knows this case and this story back to front and

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Speaker 1: she has a lot to say about it. Zanthi joins us. Now, Zathi,

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Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about your expertise and what

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Speaker 1: you do for a living.

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Speaker 2: I am an associate professor of criminology. So what that

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Speaker 2: in essence means is I spend a lot of my

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Speaker 2: day working with students, teaching them the basics of criminology.

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Speaker 2: I also spend my day doing research, and one of

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Speaker 2: my areas of expertise is looking at mothers accused of

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Speaker 2: murdering their children, which is actually how I originally came

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Speaker 2: across the case of Kelly Lane and cath Folbig and

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Speaker 2: many other high profile cases in Australia. And I do

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Speaker 2: a lot of media work as well, engaging with the

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Speaker 2: media different interest topics, things that come up, big cases,

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Speaker 2: helping to explain those to the public. So I have

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Speaker 2: a few different hats that I wear depending on what

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Speaker 2: day it is.

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Speaker 1: And you've waited on the Kelly Lane story quite a

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Speaker 1: bit in recent years. Is it a case that you

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Speaker 1: still think think a bit often?

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Speaker 2: It certainly is. So I came across the case of

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Speaker 2: Kelly Lane back in twenty thirteen when I first started

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Speaker 2: writing about mothers who Murder in Australia. So I started

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Speaker 2: writing a book which came out in twenty fourteen of

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Speaker 2: that title Mother's Who Murder and Infamous Miscarriages of Justice.

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Speaker 2: And so in my book in twenty fourteen, I actually

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Speaker 2: raised issues of doubt that I had with Kelly's case,

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Speaker 2: and since that time, Kelly got in touch with me,

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Speaker 2: and I've been a number of times to see her

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Speaker 2: since she's been incarcerated, and I've basically followed the case,

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Speaker 2: pray closely, and raised my concerns over the years. And

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Speaker 2: sometimes that was an extremely unpopular thing to do, given

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Speaker 2: she's well known as kind of a baby killer's same

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Speaker 2: as cath Folbig, and so I have been using my

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Speaker 2: I guess, public profile and background in forensics and criminology

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Speaker 2: to just lay some groundwork into how we look at

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Speaker 2: these cases and why I have concerns about the reliability

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Speaker 2: of the convictions, specific in Kelly's case.

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Speaker 1: Let's tell Kelly's story before we get to the conviction

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Speaker 1: and everything that's happened since. Kelly's story starts by the

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Speaker 1: beach in Manley, the Insular Peninsula as it's infamously called.

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Speaker 1: What was her early.

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Speaker 2: Life like, Kelly's early life was very privileged. She was

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Speaker 2: part of this very elite group. It was a perfect

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Speaker 2: lifestyle in essence. You know, she was hanging out at

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Speaker 2: the beach all day. She was very much into water sports.

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Speaker 2: She was hanging out with all the popular kids and

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Speaker 2: her family were very embedded in the community. Her father

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Speaker 2: was a police officer, her mother was a nurse, and

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Speaker 2: they spent a lot of time engaged with like kids,

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Speaker 2: sports and supporting the family. So they were a very

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Speaker 2: close knit family and also very embedded in the community.

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Speaker 2: From the outside, this appears to be a pretty idyllic lifestyle,

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Speaker 2: and certainly Kelly excelled at sports. She was a very

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Speaker 2: good water polo player, and so this is something that

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Speaker 2: was part of her lifestyle from a very very early

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Speaker 2: age and she certainly went on to compete at a

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Speaker 2: high level in terms of her sporting ability, and that's

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Speaker 2: something that her family were very supportive of.

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Speaker 1: Did she have a close relationship with her parents growing.

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Speaker 2: Up, Well, that's a really interesting question because when we

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Speaker 2: get to the background of what happened with Teagan Lane,

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Speaker 2: who's the child that ultimately vanished and led to Kelly's

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Speaker 2: conviction for murder. If you look at the family history,

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Speaker 2: it's quite an unusual one in that Kelly had a

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Speaker 2: number of pregnancies before Tigan. She had a couple of abortions,

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Speaker 2: and then she had one child that was adopted out

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Speaker 2: before Tegan, and then Tiegan, who she claims she gave

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Speaker 2: to the biological father. I'm sure we'll get to that,

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Speaker 2: and then there was another child after that she adopted out.

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Speaker 2: And so when all of this came out in court,

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Speaker 2: what was interesting was that the family claimed to know

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Speaker 2: nothing about all of these pregnancies, and so I always

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Speaker 2: thought that was quite an interesting family dynamic. And with

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Speaker 2: respect to the family and Kelly, I don't kind of

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Speaker 2: want to dig in to that too much because that's

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Speaker 2: private to them, but I always thought that it was

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Speaker 2: interesting that if they'd been a close knit family, it

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Speaker 2: just surprised me that nobody was aware of these multiple pregnancies.

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Speaker 2: And that's not a conversation that was had in that house,

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Speaker 2: you know, because this was obviously a young woman that

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Speaker 2: was going through pretty traumatic events repeatedly, and that's something

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Speaker 2: that you would expect from most families to have noticed

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Speaker 2: and potentially offer some support with. So how close they

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Speaker 2: were is difficult to actually ascertain. Certainly from the outside,

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Speaker 2: they appeared to be a very supportive, loving family who were,

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Speaker 2: in essence, pillars of the community.

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Speaker 1: Let's delve into that timeline you've laid out a bit more. So,

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Speaker 1: Kelly felt pregnant for the first time in nineteen ninety two,

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Speaker 1: she was only seventeen years old, and she had an abortion.

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Speaker 1: She then fell pregnant again two years later, and again

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Speaker 1: she terminated that pregnancy a bit further on in the pregnancy,

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Speaker 1: about halfway. Did she tell anyone about those experiences if

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Speaker 1: she wasn't talking to her family, was she talking to anyone?

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Speaker 2: Well, again, that's quite interesting. She was obviously playing water

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Speaker 2: polo at this time. She had you would think, quite

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Speaker 2: close friends on those water polo teams. Yet again, this

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Speaker 2: doesn't seem to have been a topic of conversation. There

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Speaker 2: was some gossips certainly around it. Other girls seemed to

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Speaker 2: have recognized that she was pregnant because obviously she's in

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Speaker 2: a swimsuit all the time, But even her coach doesn't

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Speaker 2: seem to have raised this with her. So I'm not

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Speaker 2: sure what support or whom she was talking to at

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Speaker 2: that time about this, but certainly, and I hope she

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Speaker 2: did have support through these abortions, because I know that

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Speaker 2: they were certainly traumatic for her. This is not something

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Speaker 2: she took lightly at all, But it's difficult to actually

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Speaker 2: see evidence of that in terms of the people that

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Speaker 2: she was nearest to and spending the most time with

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Speaker 2: when she was in those late teenage years going into

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Speaker 2: her twenties.

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Speaker 1: Her third pregnancy in nineteen ninety five, she's still so young,

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Speaker 1: she's only nineteen. She gives birth to that child, so

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Speaker 1: she goes full term, she gives birth to a healthy baby,

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Speaker 1: and again no one seems to say anything know that

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Speaker 1: she's pregnant. This is all fresh in my mind because

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Speaker 1: I gave birth last year and everyone could tell I

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Speaker 1: was pregnant. How on earth did no one know or

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Speaker 1: say anything.

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Speaker 2: Look, I cannot answer that question. I do not know.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how your family wouldn't know. I don't

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Speaker 2: know how you can go full term and people around

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Speaker 2: you not know about that, not mention that, not saying

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Speaker 2: anything about that. I mean, her mum was attending training

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Speaker 2: sessions at the pool. How do you not notice your

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Speaker 2: daughter is full term pregnant. Her boyfriend at the time,

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Speaker 2: long term boyfriend, didn't know that she was pregnant and

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Speaker 2: had given birth. I can't get my head around that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you hear it occasionally, don't know that a

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Speaker 2: woman didn't know she was pregnant and suddenly gives birth

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Speaker 2: and it's all a big surprise. But for this to

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Speaker 2: happen multiple times. It seems a very strange scenario when

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Speaker 2: everybody claims no knowledge of these babies, and yet somebody

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Speaker 2: surely must have noticed some changes in Kelly that would

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Speaker 2: have signified that she was pregnant. It's totally out there

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Speaker 2: to think that nobody knew anything.

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Speaker 1: What were the circumstances around her giving birth to that

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Speaker 1: first baby? Did she do that alone? And what happened

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Speaker 1: to the child?

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Speaker 2: So she gave birth to the first child in hospital

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Speaker 2: and it was in essence immediately given up for adoption.

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Speaker 2: So this was a decision that was made before Obviously

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Speaker 2: she went in she'd already decided although she went full term.

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Speaker 2: My understanding is that it was too late to actually

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Speaker 2: have bought in that case. She found that she was

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Speaker 2: pregnant too late. Therefore took it to full term and

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Speaker 2: so the next bext option for her. At that time,

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Speaker 2: she didn't feel she was able to give that child

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Speaker 2: the life she would want to, so she elected to

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Speaker 2: give that child up for adoption, and.

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Speaker 1: She was in the birth suite by herself, no support.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Correct, this is a young woman going through all

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Speaker 2: of this alone. I mean, my heart goes out to

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Speaker 2: her I know that people have judged Kelly over the

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Speaker 2: years for having multiple abortions and multiple adoptions, but you know,

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Speaker 2: this is so hard, so hard emotionally for anybody to

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Speaker 2: go through. I can't imagine having to go through it

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Speaker 2: multiple times on your own.

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Speaker 1: Her fourth pregnancy is baby Teagan, which is the reason

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Speaker 1: we're all here. Correct, born in September nineteen ninety six.

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Speaker 1: What do we know about that? Pregnancy and birth? Once

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Speaker 1: again completely secret.

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Speaker 2: Completely secret. Nobody knew again the boyfriend didn't know now.

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Speaker 2: Teagan is, according to Kelly, the result of an affair

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Speaker 2: with an older man called Andrew Norris or Morris, and

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Speaker 2: Kelly's unsure of the surname, so we'll just call him

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Speaker 2: Andrew for simplicity's sake. He was a married man and

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Speaker 2: they began an affair. She visited in as apartment in Sydney, etc.

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Speaker 2: She fell pregnant again. It was mindstanding that it was

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Speaker 2: too late bought, so she went full term. And Andrew

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Speaker 2: had a partner called mel This was Kelly's understanding from

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Speaker 2: what he'd said, and it was decided between the biological

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Speaker 2: parents that Kelly wasn't in a position to raise the child,

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Speaker 2: so she would give Teagan to Andrew and his partner Mel.

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Speaker 2: She was on board with this and that they would

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Speaker 2: then raise the child as their own. And so Kelly

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Speaker 2: went into hospital again on her own gave birth to

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Speaker 2: Tigan after two days in hospital in Sydney. This is

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Speaker 2: Kelly's version events. She met Andrew and Mel in the

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Speaker 2: reception downstairs in the hospital where she handed over Tegan,

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Speaker 2: and then she got a taxi home where she got

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Speaker 2: changed and went out to a wedding later. And again

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Speaker 2: nobody in her family or her boyfriend knew anything about

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Speaker 2: the fact that she'd just given birth. She just went

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Speaker 2: out and carried on as normal. And so that is

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Speaker 2: according to Kelly, the last time she saw Teagan was

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Speaker 2: when she handed her over to her biological father in

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Speaker 2: the hospital as a two day old.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's details like what you just said,

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Speaker 1: the fact that she left hospital and a few hours

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Speaker 1: later went to a wedding that people struggle with. What

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Speaker 1: do you say to that, because everyone has their own

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Speaker 1: kind of way of living. Most of us after giving

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Speaker 1: birth can't imagine going to a wedding and wearing white.

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Speaker 1: But you know, you can't judge another's experience.

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Speaker 2: Right exactly and Kelly also one of the children she

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Speaker 2: gave birth to and then played water polo almost immediately after.

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Speaker 2: So you know, Kelly is quite a stoic, strong woman.

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Speaker 2: This is something she obviously wanted to keep to herself

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Speaker 2: for her own reasons. And again I respect that. You know,

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Speaker 2: nobody has to disclose these type of events if they

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Speaker 2: don't want to. It's their private life. And so it's

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Speaker 2: easy to judge and think, well, how is that possible

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Speaker 2: that you could go home, get changed, go to a wedding,

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Speaker 2: act like everything is normal, having just given birth and

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Speaker 2: handed over your child to her father. But as you say,

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Speaker 2: everyone is different, and this was obviously it was important

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Speaker 2: to Kelly to keep this information private, even from those

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Speaker 2: closest to her, and so she, in essence did everything

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Speaker 2: she could to keep Teagan the secret.

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Speaker 1: She gets pregnant again, and I feel like I need

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Speaker 1: to ask this question. Has she spoken to you about

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Speaker 1: putting things in place to stop herself from getting pregnant

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Speaker 1: because she keeps having these traumatic experiences of having to

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Speaker 1: give the baby away or having abortions. Has she talked

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Speaker 1: to you about that?

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Speaker 2: So Kelly was actually on birth control, Clearly it wasn't working,

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Speaker 2: and she was part of a culture in those northern

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Speaker 2: beaches at the time that was very heavily focused on drinking,

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Speaker 2: for example. And I do wonder whether there were elements

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Speaker 2: of perhaps drinking that maybe led to that birth control

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Speaker 2: not being as reliable as it could have been. So

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Speaker 2: perhaps sometimes pill's forgotten. You know, we're talking about young

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Speaker 2: people probably drinking too much, so she may have been

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Speaker 2: sick at times, you know, I'm just thinking about Look

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Speaker 2: at that lifestyle. These people, they're out every Friday Saturday night.

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Speaker 2: It's part of their culture to drink and to socialize.

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Speaker 2: And so she was attempting to prevent the pregnancies, but

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Speaker 2: clearly it wasn't working.

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Speaker 1: She has a third baby, a fifth pregnancy, and she

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Speaker 1: gives birth in nineteen ninety nine, again the same secrecy,

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Speaker 1: like her first, like her second. What happens to that child?

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Speaker 2: So this is where it gets interesting. So this child

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Speaker 2: also sheururns up a hospital without any support, and again

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Speaker 2: she gives up this child for adoption through social services.

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Speaker 2: Now why I say this is interesting because generally people

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Speaker 2: follow a pattern of behavior and it's the easiest form

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Speaker 2: of behavior for them, what they find works best. So

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Speaker 2: this case never worked for me, because you have two

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Speaker 2: abortions when Kelly caught the pregnancies early enough. Then you

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Speaker 2: have a third pregnancy where she didn't catch it early enough,

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Speaker 2: so she made a decision in the babies and her

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Speaker 2: best interest to adopt, and then the Crown would have

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Speaker 2: you believe that there was a fourth child that she

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Speaker 2: allegedly decided instead of leaving at the hospital, instead of

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Speaker 2: adopting out via social services, she decided instead to kill.

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Speaker 2: And then the fifth child again goes to find the pregnancy,

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Speaker 2: but she gives up to adoption. So that's what never

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Speaker 2: worked for me. Why would somebody who knows there's a

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Speaker 2: process by which they can legally and ethically provide for

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Speaker 2: their child, why would they, in the middle of that

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Speaker 2: decide to kill their child and then revert to plan

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Speaker 2: A again afterwards and again adopt with the fifth child. This,

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Speaker 2: criminologically speaking, doesn't work. This doesn't follow any behavior pattern.

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Speaker 2: I recognize there's no insinuation that at the time of

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Speaker 2: Teagan's birth, Kelly was suffering from any post traumatic stress

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Speaker 2: or post natal psychosis for example, that would lead her

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Speaker 2: to really subverting her behavior that she knew would work.

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Speaker 2: The plan that she knew would work and go to

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Speaker 2: such extreme lengths. Why would you do that? You could

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Speaker 2: just leave the baby in the hospital and walk out.

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Speaker 2: So behaviorally, it made no sense to me that she

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Speaker 2: made that decision with Teagan.

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Speaker 1: Especially considering the first adoption went according to plan exactly.

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Speaker 2: There were no problems with that. People would have you

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Speaker 2: believe that Kelly was kind of this very cold, hard

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Speaker 2: person and she didn't struggle through that emotionally, but she

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Speaker 2: absolutely did. When you speak to her about the loss

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Speaker 2: that she felt adopting out her children, you know, that

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Speaker 2: was very raw for Kelly. So this was a very

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Speaker 2: hard thing for her to do. And so for me

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Speaker 2: to accept that somebody who suffered through giving up their

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Speaker 2: child for adoption twice but in the middle has the

347
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Speaker 2: capacity to kill a child. I just can't understand that process.

348
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Speaker 2: I don't see evidence for that process. So that is

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Speaker 2: where I kind of came to this. I was like,

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Speaker 2: there's a problem here. This does not make any kind

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Speaker 2: of sense.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to true crime conversations with me Jemma Bath.

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Speaker 1: I'm speaking with forensic criminologist doctor Znthey Mallett about the

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Speaker 1: disappearance of Teagan Lane and the conviction of her mother, Kelly.

355
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Speaker 1: Up next, we look at how police got involved in

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Speaker 1: this story and the supposed evidence that saw her convicted.

357
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Speaker 1: How did the police become involved in this because the

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Speaker 1: third baby is adopted out and then that's when the

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Speaker 1: police start getting involved.

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Speaker 2: What happened, Well, first of all, social services got involved.

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Speaker 2: So when the adoption of the fifth child occurred, an

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Speaker 2: individual who's working for social services started looking at Kelly's

363
00:21:05,662 --> 00:21:10,262
Speaker 2: history of adoptions and noticed that the hospital records demonstrated

364
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Speaker 2: that there was a middle child. So we have adoption one,

365
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Speaker 2: then we have Tigan and an option two, and then

366
00:21:16,822 --> 00:21:19,462
Speaker 2: they started to look at okay, so we know where

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Speaker 2: baby one is and obviously we're processing baby three. The

368
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Speaker 2: question is where is baby two? Where is Tigan? And

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Speaker 2: that is where all of this started. And because social

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Speaker 2: services couldn't locate baby Teagan, eventually this was reported to

371
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Speaker 2: police and police started to look at Tegan initially as

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Speaker 2: a missing person and obviously eventually prosecuted Kelly for murdering

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Speaker 2: Tigan because they failed to actually locate Teagan.

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Speaker 1: It did take quite a while because she gave birth

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Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety nine and she's brought in for questioning

376
00:21:52,902 --> 00:21:55,462
Speaker 1: two thousand and one, So there's a bit of time

377
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Speaker 1: in there. Obviously a lot of the time, the justice

378
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Speaker 1: system takes a bit of time here, so I'm sure

379
00:22:01,022 --> 00:22:03,342
Speaker 1: there was lots going on there. But when she's brought

380
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Speaker 1: in for questioning in two thousand and one, she's pregnant

381
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Speaker 1: again around seven months and this child she actually keep

382
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Speaker 1: pep And I want to bring this up because the

383
00:22:14,022 --> 00:22:17,782
Speaker 1: circumstances around this pregnancy, this child that she ends up

384
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Speaker 1: becoming a mother to. For her, this was like a

385
00:22:21,582 --> 00:22:23,582
Speaker 1: new start, wasn't that she was about to tell her

386
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Speaker 1: family that this was her first child.

387
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Speaker 2: Yes, and actually saying there was a lot of things

388
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Speaker 2: going on in the background. I'm not even sure there was,

389
00:22:30,942 --> 00:22:33,542
Speaker 2: to be honest, because if you look at Kelly's demographic

390
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Speaker 2: in terms of there's been a report to police, we

391
00:22:36,582 --> 00:22:39,102
Speaker 2: don't know where this child is, so they would have

392
00:22:39,302 --> 00:22:42,062
Speaker 2: looked at Kelly and her family. You know, she was

393
00:22:42,262 --> 00:22:44,942
Speaker 2: still a sportswoman at this point, but she was also

394
00:22:45,142 --> 00:22:47,902
Speaker 2: moving into teaching in schools, and she had a job.

395
00:22:48,262 --> 00:22:51,022
Speaker 2: Her life was going well, and she was from a

396
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Speaker 2: fairly affluent neighborhood. And this is not the kind of

397
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Speaker 2: person who the police will have looked at and thought, hmm,

398
00:22:57,862 --> 00:23:00,982
Speaker 2: there's a problem here, you know, has something sinister happened

399
00:23:00,982 --> 00:23:03,822
Speaker 2: to this child? Because Kelly just does not fit the

400
00:23:03,862 --> 00:23:07,302
Speaker 2: picture of somebody who would intentionally harm or dispose of

401
00:23:07,302 --> 00:23:09,582
Speaker 2: a child. So I'm not sure the police were particularly

402
00:23:09,582 --> 00:23:12,782
Speaker 2: active in those early days because I don't think they

403
00:23:12,902 --> 00:23:15,742
Speaker 2: really thought that Tigan had ever really been at risk,

404
00:23:15,902 --> 00:23:19,102
Speaker 2: because she's got this very supportive family who are well

405
00:23:19,142 --> 00:23:21,422
Speaker 2: known in the community, and she just doesn't fit the

406
00:23:21,462 --> 00:23:24,702
Speaker 2: picture of a woman who would intentionally harm her child.

407
00:23:26,062 --> 00:23:31,822
Speaker 1: How distressed was Kelly during that early questioning time, because

408
00:23:31,862 --> 00:23:35,222
Speaker 1: obviously she's being accused of something horrendous, but she was

409
00:23:35,262 --> 00:23:39,542
Speaker 1: also terrified about all of the other things kind of

410
00:23:39,582 --> 00:23:42,142
Speaker 1: coming out to her world, wasn't.

411
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Speaker 2: She absolutely, And so initially she was being questioned looking

412
00:23:45,742 --> 00:23:48,742
Speaker 2: for a missing child, remember, So it wasn't until much

413
00:23:48,822 --> 00:23:51,182
Speaker 2: later in the process that they believed Teagan was actually

414
00:23:51,182 --> 00:23:53,582
Speaker 2: to see So initially, you know, she was talking to

415
00:23:53,662 --> 00:23:56,142
Speaker 2: place almost as that witness handing over the child. She

416
00:23:56,222 --> 00:23:58,902
Speaker 2: was trying to be as helpful as possible, but obviously

417
00:23:59,422 --> 00:24:02,822
Speaker 2: very concerned that all of these secrets she tried very

418
00:24:02,822 --> 00:24:05,862
Speaker 2: hard to keep from her friends and her family were

419
00:24:05,902 --> 00:24:08,062
Speaker 2: going to come out as part of this process. You know,

420
00:24:08,222 --> 00:24:10,942
Speaker 2: her family, as I've said, are the hypher profile in

421
00:24:10,942 --> 00:24:13,582
Speaker 2: the local community, the stand up citizens, you know, police

422
00:24:13,582 --> 00:24:18,742
Speaker 2: officer and a nurse and very engaged locally. Everyone knows them,

423
00:24:18,862 --> 00:24:21,942
Speaker 2: and she is absolutely terrified that people are going to

424
00:24:22,142 --> 00:24:26,542
Speaker 2: find out about all of these secret pregnancies, including her

425
00:24:26,542 --> 00:24:30,662
Speaker 2: family remembers. So yeah, she was very, very worried. And

426
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Speaker 2: I've heard covert phone calls from slightly later in the

427
00:24:34,782 --> 00:24:37,942
Speaker 2: investigation when she knows that they are looking at her

428
00:24:37,982 --> 00:24:42,622
Speaker 2: in terms of Tiagan having been killed, and she's talking

429
00:24:42,622 --> 00:24:44,102
Speaker 2: to her mother for the first time and at this

430
00:24:44,182 --> 00:24:47,502
Speaker 2: point her father doesn't know, and you could tell she

431
00:24:47,582 --> 00:24:50,862
Speaker 2: was absolutely terrified about what would happen when all of

432
00:24:50,862 --> 00:24:53,222
Speaker 2: this information came out, and it was it was a

433
00:24:53,222 --> 00:24:56,942
Speaker 2: really hard call to listen to, actually, because you could

434
00:24:56,982 --> 00:25:00,422
Speaker 2: really hear the distress that she was going through. What

435
00:25:00,542 --> 00:25:04,342
Speaker 2: was she scared would happen, reputational damage to the family,

436
00:25:04,622 --> 00:25:06,982
Speaker 2: Everyone was going to find out that she'd been keeping

437
00:25:06,982 --> 00:25:09,542
Speaker 2: all of these dark secrets. And I think the family

438
00:25:09,542 --> 00:25:12,502
Speaker 2: were genuinely worried that too. You know, they're standing in

439
00:25:12,542 --> 00:25:14,942
Speaker 2: the community, could have been at risk here, especially if

440
00:25:14,982 --> 00:25:18,182
Speaker 2: she's being investigated for murder. Remember, and her father's a

441
00:25:18,182 --> 00:25:21,942
Speaker 2: police officer. This was going to be extremely challenging for

442
00:25:22,022 --> 00:25:23,062
Speaker 2: the entire family.

443
00:25:24,502 --> 00:25:28,382
Speaker 1: Obviously there's big lies like pregnancies and children being born.

444
00:25:28,542 --> 00:25:30,222
Speaker 1: But I think one of the other things a lot

445
00:25:30,222 --> 00:25:33,382
Speaker 1: of people struggle with other little lives, the lots of

446
00:25:33,422 --> 00:25:36,662
Speaker 1: little white lies that she tells amongst everything. She kind

447
00:25:36,702 --> 00:25:39,462
Speaker 1: of makes up where her family is from and her

448
00:25:39,502 --> 00:25:41,942
Speaker 1: parents are in Perth right now and all that kind

449
00:25:41,982 --> 00:25:42,502
Speaker 1: of stuff.

450
00:25:43,262 --> 00:25:46,262
Speaker 2: Yes, so when it came out at trial, she'd made

451
00:25:46,342 --> 00:25:48,382
Speaker 2: up yeah, as you say, lots of little white lies

452
00:25:48,422 --> 00:25:51,342
Speaker 2: as to why she didn't have any support people present

453
00:25:51,382 --> 00:25:53,302
Speaker 2: with her, who was going to be picking her up

454
00:25:53,462 --> 00:25:56,142
Speaker 2: leaving the hospital, why there was no one there. There

455
00:25:56,182 --> 00:25:58,342
Speaker 2: were lots of white lies, and a lot was made

456
00:25:58,382 --> 00:26:03,262
Speaker 2: of that during the case by the Crown, indicating that basically,

457
00:26:03,502 --> 00:26:06,622
Speaker 2: if somebody can be demonstrated to be a liar, and

458
00:26:06,702 --> 00:26:09,382
Speaker 2: there's no doubt that Kelly led, she would openly admit

459
00:26:09,422 --> 00:26:13,022
Speaker 2: that herself there for the world to see. But a

460
00:26:13,102 --> 00:26:17,022
Speaker 2: line was drawn between telling lies and being able to

461
00:26:17,062 --> 00:26:20,142
Speaker 2: murder a child, and again that's not the same thing.

462
00:26:20,262 --> 00:26:22,542
Speaker 2: I challenge any of the listeners to put their hands

463
00:26:22,542 --> 00:26:24,182
Speaker 2: on the hearts and say they've never told a lie

464
00:26:24,222 --> 00:26:26,822
Speaker 2: to keep something secret that they didn't want people to know.

465
00:26:27,182 --> 00:26:30,462
Speaker 2: We all have people lie all the time for many reasons.

466
00:26:31,102 --> 00:26:33,942
Speaker 2: And when you're trying to keep a secret as big

467
00:26:33,982 --> 00:26:36,862
Speaker 2: as Kelly's secrets in terms of the births of the children,

468
00:26:37,462 --> 00:26:39,862
Speaker 2: then I think some of her lies you can understand

469
00:26:39,862 --> 00:26:42,422
Speaker 2: why she was telling those to cover her tracks, and

470
00:26:42,462 --> 00:26:44,902
Speaker 2: so yes, I would just challenge anyone to judge her

471
00:26:44,982 --> 00:26:48,422
Speaker 2: about the lies and consider whether they've ever told lies

472
00:26:48,462 --> 00:26:49,942
Speaker 2: to keep their secrets hidden.

473
00:26:51,542 --> 00:26:57,302
Speaker 1: What about the lie or the accidental misnaming of Andrew,

474
00:26:57,662 --> 00:26:59,502
Speaker 1: Can you tell us about that, because you alluded to

475
00:26:59,542 --> 00:27:02,982
Speaker 1: it a bit before, But what were the two scenarios

476
00:27:03,022 --> 00:27:05,422
Speaker 1: where she said Norris and then later she said Morris.

477
00:27:06,022 --> 00:27:08,502
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, she wasn't entirely sure what her surname was.

478
00:27:08,542 --> 00:27:11,262
Speaker 2: And I've spoken to her about this. She's got really

479
00:27:11,302 --> 00:27:14,102
Speaker 2: clear memories of what he looked like. She dated him

480
00:27:14,142 --> 00:27:17,822
Speaker 2: for some time. She could describe the apartment where he lived,

481
00:27:17,862 --> 00:27:20,942
Speaker 2: what it looked like, and that apartment is certainly there.

482
00:27:21,382 --> 00:27:23,622
Speaker 2: The issue with the names is an interesting one because

483
00:27:23,662 --> 00:27:27,022
Speaker 2: you've got to remember that I've looked for other reasons,

484
00:27:27,102 --> 00:27:29,022
Speaker 2: things that might explain this. You've got to remember that

485
00:27:29,062 --> 00:27:32,342
Speaker 2: this is a married man for a start, and in

486
00:27:32,382 --> 00:27:36,222
Speaker 2: that scenario, she's younger than him. Is it possible that

487
00:27:36,902 --> 00:27:39,902
Speaker 2: he never even told her his real name? This is

488
00:27:39,942 --> 00:27:42,902
Speaker 2: an illicit affair he's trying to keep to himself. So

489
00:27:43,022 --> 00:27:45,942
Speaker 2: I always wondered whether his first name probably was Andrew,

490
00:27:45,982 --> 00:27:48,102
Speaker 2: because obviously you're going to respond to your name. That's

491
00:27:48,102 --> 00:27:50,902
Speaker 2: a harder lie. If you start saying, oh, call me Mark,

492
00:27:51,022 --> 00:27:52,742
Speaker 2: my name's Andrew. You're not going to respond to your

493
00:27:52,822 --> 00:27:55,062
Speaker 2: name when people call you. So you might keep your

494
00:27:55,062 --> 00:27:58,062
Speaker 2: first name, But would you in fact lie about your

495
00:27:58,062 --> 00:28:01,182
Speaker 2: second name if you are trying to keep an affair secret?

496
00:28:01,982 --> 00:28:05,702
Speaker 1: But said his wife knew, and if somebody is going

497
00:28:05,742 --> 00:28:08,742
Speaker 1: to prison, wouldn't they come forward?

498
00:28:09,622 --> 00:28:13,182
Speaker 2: Well, all these great questions. I'm not sure at what

499
00:28:13,222 --> 00:28:17,982
Speaker 2: point mel as Kelly says Andrew told her the name

500
00:28:18,142 --> 00:28:20,782
Speaker 2: was of the partner. I don't know what point she

501
00:28:20,902 --> 00:28:25,222
Speaker 2: was informed of the pregnancy. So that's obviously something that

502
00:28:25,262 --> 00:28:28,102
Speaker 2: we can't confirm. This is all kind of hypothetical out there.

503
00:28:29,022 --> 00:28:31,702
Speaker 2: So would you come forward? You would think so, wouldn't you?

504
00:28:31,942 --> 00:28:36,142
Speaker 2: Were they fearful that they were involved in something illegal,

505
00:28:36,182 --> 00:28:38,222
Speaker 2: with some sort of illegal adoption. I mean, people have

506
00:28:38,262 --> 00:28:40,382
Speaker 2: asked me that it's like, well, he would have had

507
00:28:40,382 --> 00:28:42,782
Speaker 2: to adopt it. Well, not if he's the biological father.

508
00:28:43,102 --> 00:28:44,822
Speaker 2: I don't think people would have thought anything of the

509
00:28:44,862 --> 00:28:48,702
Speaker 2: fact that if this situation had been reversed that the

510
00:28:48,742 --> 00:28:51,862
Speaker 2: biological father says to the mother, you take full custody,

511
00:28:52,462 --> 00:28:55,462
Speaker 2: and everyone starts going, well, you'd had to have adopted her. No,

512
00:28:55,582 --> 00:28:58,782
Speaker 2: you wouldn't, you're the biological mother. But because it's the father,

513
00:28:58,902 --> 00:29:01,342
Speaker 2: people seem to struggle more with him wanting to take

514
00:29:01,382 --> 00:29:03,582
Speaker 2: on that child. And I think that's just a cultural

515
00:29:03,622 --> 00:29:06,102
Speaker 2: thing actually, Okay, But so we don't know when mel

516
00:29:06,302 --> 00:29:09,502
Speaker 2: actually found out and would you come forward? I mean,

517
00:29:09,542 --> 00:29:11,182
Speaker 2: but are you going to have to give that child

518
00:29:11,542 --> 00:29:14,742
Speaker 2: at that point? And did they leave the country? Are

519
00:29:14,742 --> 00:29:16,622
Speaker 2: there all sorts of other reasons why they may have

520
00:29:16,662 --> 00:29:19,422
Speaker 2: heard nothing about this. I mean, you would think that

521
00:29:19,822 --> 00:29:21,942
Speaker 2: you'd have to have literally been living under rock to

522
00:29:22,022 --> 00:29:24,222
Speaker 2: be in Australia and not know about the Kelly Lane case.

523
00:29:24,262 --> 00:29:26,582
Speaker 2: But I talk to people all the time and I

524
00:29:26,702 --> 00:29:30,502
Speaker 2: mention these really high profile cases and people go, I'm sorry, who,

525
00:29:31,182 --> 00:29:34,582
Speaker 2: and I'm like, where have you been? Like, where were

526
00:29:34,622 --> 00:29:36,502
Speaker 2: you during this court case when it was on the

527
00:29:36,542 --> 00:29:39,142
Speaker 2: news every single day and it's in back in the

528
00:29:39,182 --> 00:29:41,822
Speaker 2: media and back in the media since two thousand and

529
00:29:42,222 --> 00:29:45,662
Speaker 2: ten when Kelly was found guilty of murder, and yet

530
00:29:45,862 --> 00:29:49,382
Speaker 2: people don't know, they haven't seen it. So did they

531
00:29:49,382 --> 00:29:51,662
Speaker 2: not come forward because they didn't want to get involved?

532
00:29:51,942 --> 00:29:54,462
Speaker 2: Did they not come forward because they don't even know

533
00:29:54,502 --> 00:29:56,142
Speaker 2: what happened? I don't know.

534
00:29:57,102 --> 00:29:58,862
Speaker 1: This is one of those cases that just has so

535
00:29:59,022 --> 00:30:04,022
Speaker 1: many questions. Did the crown have an idea? Did they

536
00:30:04,062 --> 00:30:08,262
Speaker 1: paint a picture about how Kelly would have or could

537
00:30:08,342 --> 00:30:09,782
Speaker 1: have murdered her daughter?

538
00:30:11,102 --> 00:30:14,502
Speaker 2: Well, again, that is a very contested point because Mark Dedeski,

539
00:30:14,502 --> 00:30:18,942
Speaker 2: who was the DPP crown prosecutor on this case, very

540
00:30:18,982 --> 00:30:23,982
Speaker 2: senior barrister, very accomplished, loved cases that are unwinnable. So

541
00:30:24,022 --> 00:30:27,182
Speaker 2: he was also responsible for Catholbigg's conviction. And I will

542
00:30:27,222 --> 00:30:30,062
Speaker 2: just leave that sitting there as a very heavy weight YEP.

543
00:30:30,302 --> 00:30:34,342
Speaker 2: Basically in front of the jury, Tedesky suggested that Kelly

544
00:30:34,422 --> 00:30:38,302
Speaker 2: could have killed Teagan and disposed of her the building

545
00:30:38,342 --> 00:30:40,222
Speaker 2: site of the New Olympics, because this is coming up

546
00:30:40,342 --> 00:30:43,262
Speaker 2: the two thousand Olympics, and so that was put out

547
00:30:43,262 --> 00:30:45,822
Speaker 2: there as a possibility. He was then made to retract

548
00:30:45,862 --> 00:30:49,062
Speaker 2: that because there was zero evidence that that was the case,

549
00:30:49,582 --> 00:30:53,822
Speaker 2: and so the jury were told to ignore that hypothesis.

550
00:30:54,382 --> 00:30:57,702
Speaker 2: And then obviously the jury are told to ignore that.

551
00:30:57,822 --> 00:31:00,902
Speaker 2: But the problem is, we know from looking at the

552
00:31:00,902 --> 00:31:03,502
Speaker 2: way juries work, if a jury is actually told to

553
00:31:04,102 --> 00:31:07,902
Speaker 2: discounter remark that's been made, it actually imprints it on

554
00:31:07,982 --> 00:31:11,382
Speaker 2: their brain. It makes it more important in their memory.

555
00:31:11,462 --> 00:31:14,222
Speaker 2: Then it was originally so what he had done by

556
00:31:14,382 --> 00:31:17,782
Speaker 2: dropping that little bomb in there was give them a

557
00:31:17,822 --> 00:31:20,102
Speaker 2: mechanism by which it could have been possible. The fact

558
00:31:20,142 --> 00:31:22,502
Speaker 2: that there was no evidence for it didn't really matter

559
00:31:22,822 --> 00:31:25,462
Speaker 2: in terms of his case. He'd given that to them,

560
00:31:25,662 --> 00:31:29,062
Speaker 2: and so that was something that I believe was heavily influential,

561
00:31:29,502 --> 00:31:31,582
Speaker 2: even though the jury were told to discount.

562
00:31:31,822 --> 00:31:34,302
Speaker 1: That's so interesting. I hadn't even thought of that. It's

563
00:31:34,342 --> 00:31:39,342
Speaker 1: a criminal procedure that's used in trials. But the jury

564
00:31:39,342 --> 00:31:42,862
Speaker 1: a human. You can't just discount something and like take

565
00:31:42,862 --> 00:31:44,342
Speaker 1: it out of your brain and put it in the bin.

566
00:31:44,502 --> 00:31:46,822
Speaker 2: Now and imagine somebody goes to you, oh, so you

567
00:31:46,942 --> 00:31:50,262
Speaker 2: just heard that. Now, that's so important that I want

568
00:31:50,262 --> 00:31:53,262
Speaker 2: you to ignore it. Yeah, that's basically what it said.

569
00:31:53,262 --> 00:31:56,422
Speaker 2: It's like that you shouldn't have heard that alarm, alarm,

570
00:31:56,462 --> 00:31:59,782
Speaker 2: red flag right now. How do you then just wipe

571
00:31:59,822 --> 00:32:02,742
Speaker 2: that from your mind? You can't, so it just kind

572
00:32:02,782 --> 00:32:07,422
Speaker 2: of sits there, festering away as a possibility. You can't

573
00:32:07,422 --> 00:32:08,782
Speaker 2: suck it back out of the world.

574
00:32:09,862 --> 00:32:13,982
Speaker 1: Was there anything else that struck you about the investigation?

575
00:32:14,262 --> 00:32:17,222
Speaker 1: Then there's a coronial inquest and now the trial which

576
00:32:17,222 --> 00:32:20,462
Speaker 1: we're talking about, But was there anything else that struck

577
00:32:20,502 --> 00:32:24,502
Speaker 1: you about that process and perhaps the things that you

578
00:32:24,622 --> 00:32:26,102
Speaker 1: kind of have alarmed Bels about now?

579
00:32:26,902 --> 00:32:28,982
Speaker 2: I think there were certainly avenues and investigation that were

580
00:32:29,022 --> 00:32:30,902
Speaker 2: not followed up. Again, I think it took a really

581
00:32:30,942 --> 00:32:33,862
Speaker 2: long time for the police to consider that Kelly could

582
00:32:33,862 --> 00:32:36,262
Speaker 2: have murdered teaken, so so much of that information that

583
00:32:36,262 --> 00:32:39,102
Speaker 2: could have been captured in those early days was lost,

584
00:32:39,462 --> 00:32:43,102
Speaker 2: and I think that was very detrimental later on, and

585
00:32:43,302 --> 00:32:46,542
Speaker 2: I think that certainly by time we got to trial,

586
00:32:46,862 --> 00:32:49,782
Speaker 2: we're definitely in that cultural place where a woman's been

587
00:32:49,902 --> 00:32:53,222
Speaker 2: accused of just about the worst thing that the community

588
00:32:53,342 --> 00:32:55,782
Speaker 2: can see. That a woman can be accused of harming

589
00:32:55,782 --> 00:32:59,262
Speaker 2: their own child, and when you look at that through

590
00:32:59,302 --> 00:33:03,142
Speaker 2: the lens of the multiple abortions, the multiple births and adoptions,

591
00:33:03,502 --> 00:33:05,902
Speaker 2: I think it was really easy by time they got

592
00:33:05,902 --> 00:33:10,302
Speaker 2: to the trial for everybody pretty much to have judged

593
00:33:11,742 --> 00:33:13,702
Speaker 2: on the basis of all of that, and then the

594
00:33:13,782 --> 00:33:17,182
Speaker 2: lies came out. And this to me was always problematic

595
00:33:17,302 --> 00:33:19,582
Speaker 2: because for the first year, as I said, the behavioral issues,

596
00:33:19,662 --> 00:33:22,582
Speaker 2: like the behavior pattern didn't work, and so there was

597
00:33:22,622 --> 00:33:25,342
Speaker 2: no psychological reason for her to have done this. And

598
00:33:25,422 --> 00:33:27,982
Speaker 2: so it can be easy for people to get caught

599
00:33:28,062 --> 00:33:32,062
Speaker 2: up in an emotional rollercoaster, and they do when children

600
00:33:32,062 --> 00:33:35,142
Speaker 2: are harmed. They are very motive cases, allegedly when children

601
00:33:35,182 --> 00:33:38,182
Speaker 2: have been harmed or even murdered. My backgrounds as a

602
00:33:38,182 --> 00:33:41,222
Speaker 2: forensic scientist, so I've always been taught to step back

603
00:33:41,262 --> 00:33:43,622
Speaker 2: from that and only look at the facts and the

604
00:33:43,662 --> 00:33:45,662
Speaker 2: evidence and what does that tell us. And the facts

605
00:33:45,702 --> 00:33:49,982
Speaker 2: and evidence here are that there's nobody. Clearly you know,

606
00:33:50,062 --> 00:33:52,702
Speaker 2: this is a no body case. It's a very infamous one.

607
00:33:52,862 --> 00:33:55,942
Speaker 2: There's no forensic evidence that any crime has ever been committed,

608
00:33:56,022 --> 00:33:59,662
Speaker 2: let alone murder. There's no witnesses to any crime. All

609
00:33:59,662 --> 00:34:02,462
Speaker 2: of Kelly's friends said when they've seen her were children.

610
00:34:02,542 --> 00:34:03,982
Speaker 2: She's great with kids. I mean, she went on to

611
00:34:03,982 --> 00:34:08,182
Speaker 2: be a teacher. Kids loved her right, and even after

612
00:34:08,262 --> 00:34:11,422
Speaker 2: the police were investigating her, she's still babysitting for her friends.

613
00:34:11,742 --> 00:34:14,102
Speaker 2: So none of her friends have any kind of concerns

614
00:34:14,142 --> 00:34:17,262
Speaker 2: of any kind of issues with children. And there's no motive.

615
00:34:17,982 --> 00:34:20,262
Speaker 2: And so when you look at all of that strip

616
00:34:20,302 --> 00:34:22,982
Speaker 2: back that emotion that comes with somebody who is allegedly

617
00:34:22,982 --> 00:34:27,142
Speaker 2: harmed a child. No witness, no evidence, nobody, no motive.

618
00:34:27,982 --> 00:34:30,822
Speaker 2: So what is there. There's a missing child that was

619
00:34:30,862 --> 00:34:32,542
Speaker 2: the basis on which he was found guilty. We don't

620
00:34:32,582 --> 00:34:34,262
Speaker 2: know what happened to Teagan. I've never seen a case

621
00:34:34,342 --> 00:34:34,662
Speaker 2: like it.

622
00:34:36,262 --> 00:34:39,262
Speaker 1: I know I'm part of the media, But is the

623
00:34:39,302 --> 00:34:42,342
Speaker 1: media to blame? Does the media need to take something

624
00:34:42,382 --> 00:34:44,102
Speaker 1: away from this, because this isn't a story that was

625
00:34:44,142 --> 00:34:47,142
Speaker 1: a tiny little insert in the paper, This was water

626
00:34:47,302 --> 00:34:48,102
Speaker 1: or coverage.

627
00:34:48,582 --> 00:34:50,822
Speaker 2: I'm not sure that media is strictly to blame, because

628
00:34:50,862 --> 00:34:54,782
Speaker 2: I think the community is also choosing to consume certain

629
00:34:54,822 --> 00:34:57,542
Speaker 2: types of media, right, So I think it's easy to

630
00:34:57,582 --> 00:35:00,182
Speaker 2: blame the media and say, oh, we're all taken up

631
00:35:00,182 --> 00:35:02,662
Speaker 2: by the way media presents a story. And certainly there's

632
00:35:02,662 --> 00:35:05,102
Speaker 2: an element of that, the media outlets have a choice

633
00:35:05,462 --> 00:35:08,422
Speaker 2: to make about what they're putting on the coverage they're

634
00:35:08,422 --> 00:35:11,862
Speaker 2: giving it. I mean, I'm making zero commentary about this case,

635
00:35:11,902 --> 00:35:13,942
Speaker 2: but look at what is happening with the defamation case

636
00:35:14,262 --> 00:35:18,862
Speaker 2: of Limen currently, you know, ongoing what a mess, right,

637
00:35:19,062 --> 00:35:22,022
Speaker 2: But the media, certain media outlets are choosing to present

638
00:35:22,062 --> 00:35:26,142
Speaker 2: that in different ways depending on their perspectives and competition

639
00:35:26,222 --> 00:35:30,142
Speaker 2: across the networks. Right. So, certainly the media has an agenda,

640
00:35:30,262 --> 00:35:33,382
Speaker 2: there's no denying that with a story, but there's also

641
00:35:33,622 --> 00:35:35,622
Speaker 2: we have a choice of what we listen to, what

642
00:35:35,702 --> 00:35:39,302
Speaker 2: we watch. We can be thoughtful human beings and not

643
00:35:39,542 --> 00:35:42,622
Speaker 2: just accept everything that is presented to us by the

644
00:35:42,662 --> 00:35:47,182
Speaker 2: media blindly. So we are still adults who can still

645
00:35:47,382 --> 00:35:50,502
Speaker 2: process information and make objective choices.

646
00:35:51,982 --> 00:35:54,702
Speaker 1: I do want to give people the benefit of the doubt, though, because,

647
00:35:54,742 --> 00:35:57,502
Speaker 1: like you said, with the jury being forced to forget

648
00:35:57,542 --> 00:36:02,062
Speaker 1: about a certain point, when certain headlines say someone is

649
00:36:02,102 --> 00:36:06,862
Speaker 1: a psycho, mum or they use phrases that kind of

650
00:36:06,902 --> 00:36:10,342
Speaker 1: stick in your head. And with Kelly, it would have

651
00:36:10,662 --> 00:36:13,302
Speaker 1: about jumping on all those white lies and putting her

652
00:36:13,342 --> 00:36:17,822
Speaker 1: up as a liar and all those kinds of language tools.

653
00:36:18,262 --> 00:36:20,502
Speaker 1: It does kind of sink into people's brains.

654
00:36:20,982 --> 00:36:23,302
Speaker 2: I think she was painted as cold more than crazy.

655
00:36:23,382 --> 00:36:27,182
Speaker 2: This was a cold, cold hearted woman who could have abortions,

656
00:36:27,222 --> 00:36:29,022
Speaker 2: she could give up for adoptions, and this was obviously

657
00:36:29,062 --> 00:36:31,782
Speaker 2: having no impact on her emotionally. Well, that isn't the

658
00:36:31,862 --> 00:36:34,302
Speaker 2: Kelly that I met. It isn't. But that's the point,

659
00:36:34,342 --> 00:36:36,982
Speaker 2: isn't it. There's stories that are on the television. They

660
00:36:37,022 --> 00:36:40,942
Speaker 2: don't really reflect the real person necessarily, and their viewers

661
00:36:40,982 --> 00:36:43,622
Speaker 2: and the listeners don't get to meet that person. And Kelly,

662
00:36:44,062 --> 00:36:47,342
Speaker 2: under advisement, didn't give evidence in her defense. And obviously

663
00:36:47,462 --> 00:36:50,702
Speaker 2: everyone has the right to remain silent and not speaking

664
00:36:50,782 --> 00:36:54,262
Speaker 2: their defense, and that was obviously what her defense counsel

665
00:36:54,622 --> 00:36:57,102
Speaker 2: thought was best for her. And that's quite common because

666
00:36:57,102 --> 00:36:59,382
Speaker 2: if you give a statement in court, you can then

667
00:36:59,382 --> 00:37:02,182
Speaker 2: be cross examined and that can open up a whole

668
00:37:02,262 --> 00:37:05,662
Speaker 2: can of worms. So many people don't speak in their defense.

669
00:37:05,702 --> 00:37:08,622
Speaker 2: Some people would think that that is suspicious, Well, why

670
00:37:08,622 --> 00:37:11,462
Speaker 2: wouldn't they defend themselves? But it's often the best course

671
00:37:11,462 --> 00:37:16,222
Speaker 2: of action for accused persons. They will take their counsel's advice. Obviously,

672
00:37:16,302 --> 00:37:18,942
Speaker 2: that's what the council is there for However, I think

673
00:37:19,022 --> 00:37:22,542
Speaker 2: if Kelly had spoken in court, she's very intelligent, she's

674
00:37:22,662 --> 00:37:26,142
Speaker 2: very articulate, she would have expressed I think, more emotion

675
00:37:26,662 --> 00:37:28,502
Speaker 2: then she did walking in and out of court. And

676
00:37:28,542 --> 00:37:31,582
Speaker 2: you remember the images of her crossing that press gallery

677
00:37:31,582 --> 00:37:33,822
Speaker 2: every day, just trying to hold it together.

678
00:37:34,342 --> 00:37:37,222
Speaker 1: Right, You're right. She looked cold because we didn't hear

679
00:37:37,222 --> 00:37:37,582
Speaker 1: from her.

680
00:37:38,142 --> 00:37:41,062
Speaker 2: It looked cold because we didn't hear her voice. And

681
00:37:41,102 --> 00:37:43,102
Speaker 2: I think had she spoken, I think that was a

682
00:37:43,102 --> 00:37:46,662
Speaker 2: big mistake by the defense, actually, that she didn't have

683
00:37:46,742 --> 00:37:51,102
Speaker 2: her voice. And I think now whenever Kelly is released,

684
00:37:51,302 --> 00:37:55,462
Speaker 2: she's still incarcerated at this time, then she will still

685
00:37:55,702 --> 00:37:58,662
Speaker 2: maintain her innocence, She will still fight to have her

686
00:37:58,742 --> 00:38:02,062
Speaker 2: name cleared, and she wants to have her voice, because

687
00:38:02,102 --> 00:38:04,942
Speaker 2: she gave up that opportunity during the trial under advisement,

688
00:38:05,422 --> 00:38:07,502
Speaker 2: and now I think she thinks that that was a mistake.

689
00:38:20,662 --> 00:38:24,302
Speaker 1: By the time Kelly was convicted, she was found guilty

690
00:38:24,342 --> 00:38:26,942
Speaker 1: of murdering Tagan in twenty eleven, she was given eighteen

691
00:38:27,062 --> 00:38:30,302
Speaker 1: years with a non parole of thirteen years. Were you

692
00:38:30,382 --> 00:38:31,942
Speaker 1: surprised when that result came through?

693
00:38:33,342 --> 00:38:36,342
Speaker 2: So, I think looking back at how Anthony Wheley who

694
00:38:36,382 --> 00:38:39,582
Speaker 2: was the judge in that case actually passed down that sentence.

695
00:38:39,622 --> 00:38:43,142
Speaker 2: I think he's always had concerns about the reliability. I

696
00:38:43,182 --> 00:38:45,942
Speaker 2: don't think he ever felt that the conclusion was reached

697
00:38:45,942 --> 00:38:48,742
Speaker 2: beyond reason, no doubt, but he's obviously bound by the

698
00:38:48,862 --> 00:38:52,622
Speaker 2: jury's decision, and I think he took into account all

699
00:38:52,662 --> 00:38:57,462
Speaker 2: of those mitigating factors at sentencing. So eighteen years is

700
00:38:57,542 --> 00:39:00,982
Speaker 2: basically the minimum he could give her eighteen years maximum

701
00:39:01,022 --> 00:39:03,982
Speaker 2: term with the thirteen and a half years minimum where

702
00:39:03,982 --> 00:39:07,302
Speaker 2: she would be eligible for parole. And so we are

703
00:39:07,342 --> 00:39:10,462
Speaker 2: talking about a murder charge. There are sentencing guidelines and

704
00:39:10,542 --> 00:39:14,262
Speaker 2: whilst judges do have discretion within that to look at

705
00:39:14,302 --> 00:39:18,742
Speaker 2: both exacerbating features for sentencing and mitigating so things that

706
00:39:18,822 --> 00:39:21,462
Speaker 2: would make the sentence at the lower end or the

707
00:39:21,542 --> 00:39:26,302
Speaker 2: higher end, depending on the particular circumstances of that crime.

708
00:39:26,902 --> 00:39:29,902
Speaker 2: I think he gave her the minimum terms that he could.

709
00:39:31,182 --> 00:39:34,222
Speaker 1: At what point did you meet her, because we've ascertained

710
00:39:34,262 --> 00:39:36,862
Speaker 1: that you have a relationship with her. How did that

711
00:39:36,862 --> 00:39:37,342
Speaker 1: come about?

712
00:39:38,062 --> 00:39:40,742
Speaker 2: So when one book came out, I'd raise concerns about

713
00:39:40,742 --> 00:39:43,342
Speaker 2: this case for all the reasons I've mentioned. You know, nobody,

714
00:39:43,382 --> 00:39:47,102
Speaker 2: no witness, no evidence, no motive, and Kelly contacted me

715
00:39:47,142 --> 00:39:49,102
Speaker 2: and asked if I would be willing to speak with her,

716
00:39:49,142 --> 00:39:52,502
Speaker 2: and I said yes, and so I visited her in

717
00:39:52,582 --> 00:39:55,502
Speaker 2: silver Water a number of times, and I did a

718
00:39:55,542 --> 00:39:58,342
Speaker 2: piece of sixty minutes a few years ago with Ali langdon.

719
00:39:58,462 --> 00:40:01,982
Speaker 1: Do you think the woman you've met is capable of killing?

720
00:40:02,302 --> 00:40:04,022
Speaker 2: You know, I've met a lot of different people in

721
00:40:04,062 --> 00:40:07,462
Speaker 2: a lot of circumstances as a forensic criminologist, and I'm

722
00:40:07,502 --> 00:40:11,342
Speaker 2: not a naive person. I'm pretty skeptical, and no, I

723
00:40:11,342 --> 00:40:14,022
Speaker 2: don't think she could not intentionally. I don't think she

724
00:40:14,022 --> 00:40:19,022
Speaker 2: would intentionally harm a baby, met her parents, and I

725
00:40:19,062 --> 00:40:22,302
Speaker 2: know her partner, so I would say my relationship is

726
00:40:22,382 --> 00:40:26,462
Speaker 2: very much professional. However, I am not an advocate for Kelly.

727
00:40:27,062 --> 00:40:31,142
Speaker 2: I simply speak what I think to be the facts

728
00:40:31,222 --> 00:40:34,262
Speaker 2: of the case. I raise issues around what I think

729
00:40:34,382 --> 00:40:37,662
Speaker 2: are some of the problems. Whether I think Kelly is

730
00:40:38,022 --> 00:40:40,582
Speaker 2: quote innocent or not isn't the point. And I've never

731
00:40:40,622 --> 00:40:43,782
Speaker 2: publicly commented on that because I think my position is

732
00:40:43,862 --> 00:40:48,902
Speaker 2: one of an objective observer of facts. And so if

733
00:40:48,942 --> 00:40:50,662
Speaker 2: I start saying, well I think she did it or

734
00:40:50,702 --> 00:40:54,022
Speaker 2: I think she didn't do it, that isn't really relevant

735
00:40:54,062 --> 00:40:56,622
Speaker 2: to my point. My point is, is there evidence beyond

736
00:40:56,702 --> 00:40:59,182
Speaker 2: a reasonal doubt that Teagan Lane has been murdered by

737
00:40:59,262 --> 00:41:01,102
Speaker 2: Kelly Lane? And the answer is no.

738
00:41:01,982 --> 00:41:04,502
Speaker 1: You've said you've visited her a few times. What do

739
00:41:04,502 --> 00:41:07,502
Speaker 1: you guys talk about? Are you talking about her appeals

740
00:41:07,542 --> 00:41:09,302
Speaker 1: and when she's going to get out, if she's going

741
00:41:09,342 --> 00:41:11,422
Speaker 1: to get out, all of that kind of stuff, all.

742
00:41:11,302 --> 00:41:14,702
Speaker 2: Of that, trying to look at more options for potentially

743
00:41:14,742 --> 00:41:19,622
Speaker 2: finding Tigan, finding potentially more Andrew Norris Morris's who haven't

744
00:41:19,662 --> 00:41:24,142
Speaker 2: been previously identified. I visited Kelly with one of her

745
00:41:24,582 --> 00:41:29,582
Speaker 2: representatives from r MIT's Innocence Initiative DOTOR. Michelle Reuter's runs

746
00:41:29,622 --> 00:41:33,742
Speaker 2: that and she's worked with Kelly for many years now

747
00:41:33,782 --> 00:41:37,102
Speaker 2: trying to progress her case. She's still very heavily involved

748
00:41:37,142 --> 00:41:40,022
Speaker 2: with that. So yeah, we talk about all of that,

749
00:41:40,222 --> 00:41:43,342
Speaker 2: getting a better likeness of Andrew Norris, for example, what

750
00:41:43,382 --> 00:41:46,982
Speaker 2: are the options, where's the information how to progress the case?

751
00:41:47,542 --> 00:41:49,382
Speaker 2: So yes, we talk about all of that, and she's

752
00:41:49,382 --> 00:41:52,142
Speaker 2: always very consistent in her story. I don't get the

753
00:41:52,182 --> 00:41:55,822
Speaker 2: sense that I've necessarily heard the truth of all of it.

754
00:41:55,942 --> 00:42:01,022
Speaker 2: I think Kelly is still very secretive. However, she is

755
00:42:01,782 --> 00:42:04,742
Speaker 2: very sure of parts of the story of what happened,

756
00:42:04,902 --> 00:42:08,182
Speaker 2: and I believe she is telling her truth, even though

757
00:42:08,222 --> 00:42:11,422
Speaker 2: I don't believe it's necessarily the entire truth. But again,

758
00:42:11,622 --> 00:42:14,022
Speaker 2: you know, this is a woman's life who has been

759
00:42:14,102 --> 00:42:17,582
Speaker 2: raped over since twenty ten and she was found guilty.

760
00:42:18,062 --> 00:42:20,902
Speaker 2: So is she still keeping secrets? Yes, I think she is.

761
00:42:21,382 --> 00:42:24,022
Speaker 2: But is she entitled to keep secrets given her whole

762
00:42:24,022 --> 00:42:26,342
Speaker 2: family life and all of these things she desperately wanted

763
00:42:26,382 --> 00:42:29,502
Speaker 2: to keep hidden us splashed all over the media. Well, yeah,

764
00:42:29,742 --> 00:42:32,542
Speaker 2: I think she is. So if she's not telling me everything,

765
00:42:32,662 --> 00:42:35,142
Speaker 2: then what obligation does she have to do?

766
00:42:35,222 --> 00:42:37,942
Speaker 1: So how's she doing in prison?

767
00:42:38,902 --> 00:42:41,422
Speaker 2: So it's very difficult for her at the moment because

768
00:42:41,502 --> 00:42:44,142
Speaker 2: I'm sure we'll get to this. But her parole was

769
00:42:44,302 --> 00:42:47,942
Speaker 2: recently refused a couple of weeks ago, and so her

770
00:42:48,262 --> 00:42:50,982
Speaker 2: period of parole is up in May, and so she

771
00:42:51,022 --> 00:42:53,022
Speaker 2: would have served her thirteen and a half years. She's

772
00:42:53,062 --> 00:42:58,022
Speaker 2: been on day release, and so we were expectant that

773
00:42:58,102 --> 00:43:00,102
Speaker 2: she would be released after thirteen and a half a

774
00:43:00,142 --> 00:43:03,542
Speaker 2: minimum term, because she's basically been the model in mate.

775
00:43:03,582 --> 00:43:06,822
Speaker 2: You know, she's worked with others on diet and exercise, regime.

776
00:43:06,902 --> 00:43:10,102
Speaker 2: She's really done everything she can to improve the lives

777
00:43:10,222 --> 00:43:14,142
Speaker 2: of her fellow females she's been incarcerated with, and she

778
00:43:14,182 --> 00:43:16,862
Speaker 2: hasn't done that. I don't think for brownie points, she

779
00:43:16,902 --> 00:43:18,622
Speaker 2: could have just sat through her thirteen and a half

780
00:43:18,702 --> 00:43:21,222
Speaker 2: years and just not caused any trouble and you know,

781
00:43:21,302 --> 00:43:25,342
Speaker 2: therefore met her minimum parole period. But Kelly is somebody

782
00:43:25,502 --> 00:43:28,702
Speaker 2: who ultimately likes helping people and working with people. She's

783
00:43:28,702 --> 00:43:32,462
Speaker 2: a very people centric person. She's got great social skills,

784
00:43:32,462 --> 00:43:35,702
Speaker 2: communication skills, and so I think she's generally done things

785
00:43:35,942 --> 00:43:38,902
Speaker 2: whilst being inside that have helped her and that have

786
00:43:38,942 --> 00:43:42,102
Speaker 2: helped other people to get through that time. But now

787
00:43:42,182 --> 00:43:46,022
Speaker 2: her parole has ultimately been rejected, I think it's going

788
00:43:46,062 --> 00:43:48,582
Speaker 2: to be a very difficult time for her because it

789
00:43:48,742 --> 00:43:52,182
Speaker 2: was rejected on the grounds that she was eligible because

790
00:43:52,182 --> 00:43:56,902
Speaker 2: she's not disclosed the location of Tigan's remains or body,

791
00:43:57,022 --> 00:44:00,742
Speaker 2: and she's fallen under the new nobody no parole laws

792
00:44:00,742 --> 00:44:03,182
Speaker 2: that were brought in, and so I think that is

793
00:44:03,222 --> 00:44:06,702
Speaker 2: going to be particularly a huge psychological and emotional blow

794
00:44:06,742 --> 00:44:10,102
Speaker 2: for Kelly and her family and supporters because these laws

795
00:44:10,102 --> 00:44:13,222
Speaker 2: are new, and had they not been in place, you

796
00:44:13,262 --> 00:44:16,302
Speaker 2: know when she'd met the minimum parole period. I have

797
00:44:16,382 --> 00:44:18,742
Speaker 2: no doubt she would have been released in May.

798
00:44:20,182 --> 00:44:23,342
Speaker 1: Let's touch on those laws because the reason most people

799
00:44:23,342 --> 00:44:24,942
Speaker 1: will have heard of them was because of the Chris

800
00:44:24,982 --> 00:44:27,622
Speaker 1: Dawson case. They came in at that time when he

801
00:44:27,702 --> 00:44:31,382
Speaker 1: was being sentenced, because Lynnett Dawson's body was never found.

802
00:44:32,342 --> 00:44:36,302
Speaker 1: What are your concerns with those laws? They are so fresh,

803
00:44:36,622 --> 00:44:38,142
Speaker 1: we're just seeing them being used now.

804
00:44:38,822 --> 00:44:40,542
Speaker 2: Yeah, they are very fresh. And as you say, they

805
00:44:40,582 --> 00:44:43,382
Speaker 2: were brought in really in the way Chris Dawson because

806
00:44:43,462 --> 00:44:46,822
Speaker 2: changes were made to the legislation to suggest that. And

807
00:44:46,862 --> 00:44:49,582
Speaker 2: I can't remember the exact wording, but it basically says

808
00:44:49,622 --> 00:44:52,102
Speaker 2: that if an offender is to be eligible for parole,

809
00:44:52,182 --> 00:44:56,102
Speaker 2: they have to have basically satisfied the authorities that they've

810
00:44:56,142 --> 00:44:58,822
Speaker 2: done everything they can to assist them with the location

811
00:44:59,062 --> 00:45:02,342
Speaker 2: of the victim's body or remains. If they don't do that,

812
00:45:02,942 --> 00:45:06,262
Speaker 2: they are ineligible for parole. And so this is really

813
00:45:06,382 --> 00:45:11,942
Speaker 2: to incentivize people to obviously disclose the victim him's location.

814
00:45:12,502 --> 00:45:14,782
Speaker 2: And so with Chris Dawson, he's been found guilty of

815
00:45:14,862 --> 00:45:18,582
Speaker 2: murdering his wife, Lannette, forty odd years ago and so

816
00:45:18,902 --> 00:45:21,182
Speaker 2: it was brought in, to my mind, almost as a

817
00:45:21,222 --> 00:45:24,422
Speaker 2: knee ject reaction to cases, high profile cases of that nature.

818
00:45:25,102 --> 00:45:28,942
Speaker 2: And so the issue with this is if somebody cannot

819
00:45:28,982 --> 00:45:32,982
Speaker 2: disclose the location of remains. Kelly has always maintained her innocence.

820
00:45:33,302 --> 00:45:38,902
Speaker 2: Your note. If you cannot therefore disclose where the victims

821
00:45:38,942 --> 00:45:42,222
Speaker 2: remains or body is because there is no remains, you

822
00:45:42,262 --> 00:45:45,502
Speaker 2: know you generally don't have that information, you get caught

823
00:45:45,582 --> 00:45:48,182
Speaker 2: up in this. And there's no evidence that these laws

824
00:45:48,262 --> 00:45:52,302
Speaker 2: actually do incentivize people. Certainly not going to impact Chris Dawson.

825
00:45:52,462 --> 00:45:55,902
Speaker 2: He is an elderly man who's received a very significant

826
00:45:55,982 --> 00:45:58,702
Speaker 2: term for murder, so he's never going to be eligible

827
00:45:58,742 --> 00:46:02,462
Speaker 2: for parole. Unless something really unusual happens to appeal that

828
00:46:02,502 --> 00:46:05,822
Speaker 2: I'm not expecting. Then Chris Dawson is going to die

829
00:46:06,062 --> 00:46:09,582
Speaker 2: in prison. And so the reasons these laws were brought

830
00:46:09,622 --> 00:46:12,542
Speaker 2: in not going to impact the people that they were

831
00:46:12,582 --> 00:46:16,302
Speaker 2: brought actually in to effect, and so I think Kelly's

832
00:46:16,302 --> 00:46:19,262
Speaker 2: been caught up in that. And my bigger issue with

833
00:46:19,302 --> 00:46:22,262
Speaker 2: this is that these laws are brought in to help

834
00:46:22,302 --> 00:46:25,662
Speaker 2: the families, right, So in Chris Dawson's case, it's to

835
00:46:25,742 --> 00:46:29,222
Speaker 2: help Lynette's family. Lynette's family is still desperate to know

836
00:46:29,702 --> 00:46:32,222
Speaker 2: where she is. They want them at home, they want

837
00:46:32,262 --> 00:46:35,942
Speaker 2: to bury her or do whatever rights suits their family.

838
00:46:36,542 --> 00:46:39,462
Speaker 2: And families really suffer with that when they don't have

839
00:46:40,022 --> 00:46:43,582
Speaker 2: remains to give those rights too. And so the law

840
00:46:43,622 --> 00:46:45,262
Speaker 2: has been brought in to help those families. But in

841
00:46:45,342 --> 00:46:49,942
Speaker 2: Kelly's case, Teagan is Kelly's daughter, So obviously Kelly's family

842
00:46:49,982 --> 00:46:53,942
Speaker 2: remains very supportive of Kelly, supportive of her innocence. And

843
00:46:54,022 --> 00:46:57,262
Speaker 2: so who is it serving to keep her in prison

844
00:46:57,782 --> 00:47:00,902
Speaker 2: under these nobody no parole laws? Is it in fact

845
00:47:00,942 --> 00:47:05,622
Speaker 2: serving the family of the missing child Teagan? No, because

846
00:47:05,662 --> 00:47:08,942
Speaker 2: it's the same family. So you're almost punishing that family

847
00:47:09,702 --> 00:47:14,062
Speaker 2: again by not releasing Tiagan, who believe Kelly is not

848
00:47:14,142 --> 00:47:16,822
Speaker 2: guilty of murder. And so I think these laws are

849
00:47:16,902 --> 00:47:19,862
Speaker 2: highly problematic. I think they're far too blunt. The language

850
00:47:19,902 --> 00:47:23,942
Speaker 2: is far too strong in that you can't blindly apply

851
00:47:24,102 --> 00:47:26,942
Speaker 2: these things in all scenarios. There will always be times

852
00:47:26,982 --> 00:47:30,102
Speaker 2: when you need wiggle room, but the law as it stands,

853
00:47:30,142 --> 00:47:34,262
Speaker 2: the legislation provides no wiggle room. There's nowhere to go

854
00:47:34,342 --> 00:47:38,302
Speaker 2: with it. So, unfortunately, when the hearing outcome was announced.

855
00:47:38,942 --> 00:47:40,982
Speaker 2: I knew that it was going to be a negative

856
00:47:41,062 --> 00:47:43,142
Speaker 2: because the proboard had nowhere to go.

857
00:47:44,422 --> 00:47:47,662
Speaker 1: Do these laws change as we see how they work?

858
00:47:48,262 --> 00:47:49,622
Speaker 1: Is that how these processes go?

859
00:47:50,462 --> 00:47:52,262
Speaker 2: Yeah, they do. I mean we've seen these kind of

860
00:47:52,342 --> 00:47:55,662
Speaker 2: changes as a result of the Chris Dawson case. And

861
00:47:55,702 --> 00:47:58,622
Speaker 2: my problem I suppose when we start changing laws in

862
00:47:58,662 --> 00:48:01,462
Speaker 2: reaction to one case, it can be quite politicized, and

863
00:48:01,502 --> 00:48:03,262
Speaker 2: so this seems kind of the right thing to do,

864
00:48:03,342 --> 00:48:07,142
Speaker 2: but often we don't acknowledge there will be other outcomes

865
00:48:07,142 --> 00:48:09,622
Speaker 2: that we're not predicting. It will get other people get

866
00:48:09,662 --> 00:48:12,022
Speaker 2: caught up in it, not seeing this legislation was never

867
00:48:12,102 --> 00:48:17,222
Speaker 2: changed to impact Kelly's case. So I think that it's

868
00:48:17,222 --> 00:48:19,582
Speaker 2: the first really high profile one that has got caught up,

869
00:48:19,622 --> 00:48:21,462
Speaker 2: and there's only a handful in New South Wales they

870
00:48:21,462 --> 00:48:24,262
Speaker 2: are ever going to fall under this, and so I

871
00:48:24,462 --> 00:48:26,862
Speaker 2: just think that it needs review. We need to look

872
00:48:26,902 --> 00:48:30,502
Speaker 2: at the wording of that. Sometimes it may be appropriate

873
00:48:31,182 --> 00:48:34,222
Speaker 2: that these nobody no parole laws are brought in in

874
00:48:34,262 --> 00:48:40,382
Speaker 2: other circumstances. I think that we need some maneuverability around

875
00:48:40,622 --> 00:48:44,382
Speaker 2: this because I just think that we know miscarriages of

876
00:48:44,502 --> 00:48:47,982
Speaker 2: justice occur, right Kathleen Folbick is now post a child

877
00:48:48,022 --> 00:48:51,062
Speaker 2: from miscarriages of justice. Many people believe for a very

878
00:48:51,102 --> 00:48:53,342
Speaker 2: long time she'd murdered her for children. I bet if

879
00:48:53,382 --> 00:48:56,702
Speaker 2: you did a poll, some people would still believe that

880
00:48:56,782 --> 00:48:59,662
Speaker 2: she killed those children, because there are some diehards out

881
00:48:59,702 --> 00:49:02,262
Speaker 2: there who will not accept the science no matter what

882
00:49:02,382 --> 00:49:05,862
Speaker 2: it says. And so we know there's no denying miscarriages happen.

883
00:49:06,422 --> 00:49:08,942
Speaker 2: If Kelly's a mischaracter of justice, I believe she is

884
00:49:08,982 --> 00:49:11,582
Speaker 2: because I don't think the evidence exist. And so for

885
00:49:11,662 --> 00:49:14,622
Speaker 2: her to get caught up in this after spending so

886
00:49:14,742 --> 00:49:19,342
Speaker 2: long incarcerated away from her daughter, you know, she's a mother.

887
00:49:19,582 --> 00:49:21,582
Speaker 2: She needs to get home to her daughter, and I

888
00:49:21,662 --> 00:49:24,262
Speaker 2: just think that these laws are preventing that, and I

889
00:49:24,262 --> 00:49:26,742
Speaker 2: think that's a real shame. I think the other point

890
00:49:26,782 --> 00:49:29,822
Speaker 2: about nobody no parole is parole is not meant to

891
00:49:29,862 --> 00:49:35,062
Speaker 2: be a punitive factor. Okay, So when Anthony Wheley set

892
00:49:35,102 --> 00:49:38,062
Speaker 2: down that full term of eighteen years a minimum term

893
00:49:38,102 --> 00:49:40,622
Speaker 2: of thirteen and a half years, he took all of

894
00:49:40,662 --> 00:49:45,382
Speaker 2: the mitigating factors and everything else into account when he sentenced.

895
00:49:45,462 --> 00:49:47,142
Speaker 2: Right now, you have to remember he always had his

896
00:49:47,222 --> 00:49:50,342
Speaker 2: doubts over whether she was guilty or not. But in

897
00:49:50,422 --> 00:49:53,702
Speaker 2: his sentencing guidelines, if somebody hasn't quote shown remorse because

898
00:49:53,702 --> 00:49:57,062
Speaker 2: they haven't disclosed where their victim's body is, that is

899
00:49:57,102 --> 00:50:01,382
Speaker 2: one of the circumstances which is called an aggravating factor. Okay,

900
00:50:01,742 --> 00:50:04,702
Speaker 2: so he's considered all of that in his sentencing. So

901
00:50:04,822 --> 00:50:08,302
Speaker 2: now you look forward and Kelly's done her minimum term,

902
00:50:08,862 --> 00:50:11,302
Speaker 2: and now the law says, well, if you now don't

903
00:50:11,382 --> 00:50:14,742
Speaker 2: jump through this other hoop, you still don't get parole.

904
00:50:14,862 --> 00:50:17,542
Speaker 2: Even though the fact that you hadn't disclosed the remains

905
00:50:17,662 --> 00:50:20,502
Speaker 2: was considered it sentencing. You've already been punished for that

906
00:50:20,582 --> 00:50:23,622
Speaker 2: in your length of sentence. We're now going to keep

907
00:50:23,622 --> 00:50:27,742
Speaker 2: you inside even longer to further punish you. Now, parole

908
00:50:27,822 --> 00:50:30,262
Speaker 2: is actually there so that when somebody is released on parole,

909
00:50:30,342 --> 00:50:33,542
Speaker 2: it's meant to help reintegrate them into the community, because

910
00:50:33,542 --> 00:50:36,542
Speaker 2: we all want people to come out of prison, which

911
00:50:36,582 --> 00:50:39,542
Speaker 2: is a very hard thing to do, to become a

912
00:50:39,782 --> 00:50:42,982
Speaker 2: pro social member of society, to fit back in, to

913
00:50:43,142 --> 00:50:46,582
Speaker 2: lead a positive life going forward, and parole is there

914
00:50:46,622 --> 00:50:49,662
Speaker 2: to help monitor people and assist them to do that. Right,

915
00:50:50,022 --> 00:50:52,422
Speaker 2: So it's not literally a get out of jail free card.

916
00:50:52,782 --> 00:50:56,302
Speaker 2: It's a period of transition, it is not a further punishment.

917
00:50:56,782 --> 00:50:59,702
Speaker 2: But now with no parole laws, it's like, well, we

918
00:50:59,782 --> 00:51:03,342
Speaker 2: already consider that it's sentencing, but we haven't got what

919
00:51:03,382 --> 00:51:04,982
Speaker 2: we want, so we're going to punish you more by

920
00:51:05,062 --> 00:51:07,982
Speaker 2: keeping you in prison longer. And that is not the

921
00:51:08,022 --> 00:51:10,222
Speaker 2: purpose of parole and I think it's an aberration of

922
00:51:10,262 --> 00:51:11,062
Speaker 2: that process.

923
00:51:12,422 --> 00:51:16,102
Speaker 1: So what do you think her future honestly looks like?

924
00:51:16,262 --> 00:51:17,702
Speaker 1: Do you think she's just going to have to serve

925
00:51:17,702 --> 00:51:18,502
Speaker 1: another five.

926
00:51:18,342 --> 00:51:22,222
Speaker 2: Years, another four and a half years. Yeah, because unless

927
00:51:22,262 --> 00:51:27,302
Speaker 2: she can disclose Tegan's whereabouts to the satisfaction of New

928
00:51:27,342 --> 00:51:30,342
Speaker 2: South Wales Police, then they write a letter to the

929
00:51:30,382 --> 00:51:33,262
Speaker 2: prole board saying she has satisfied this condition, she's done

930
00:51:33,262 --> 00:51:37,462
Speaker 2: everything she can to disclose the victim's location. Then the

931
00:51:37,502 --> 00:51:39,622
Speaker 2: prole board can't do anything. So they will keep having

932
00:51:39,622 --> 00:51:42,662
Speaker 2: their hearings, you know, they still go through process, but

933
00:51:42,742 --> 00:51:45,742
Speaker 2: the outcome, sadly, will be the same unless something legally

934
00:51:45,782 --> 00:51:48,022
Speaker 2: weird happens. And I've spoken to lots of colleagues at work.

935
00:51:48,462 --> 00:51:51,022
Speaker 2: I'm fortunate in the University of Newcastle work in a

936
00:51:51,022 --> 00:51:55,342
Speaker 2: school that's criminology and lawyers, so we've had many discussions

937
00:51:55,382 --> 00:51:57,742
Speaker 2: about this, and we know we looked at it coming

938
00:51:57,822 --> 00:52:00,582
Speaker 2: up to the parole hearing and they were saying, there's

939
00:52:00,582 --> 00:52:03,262
Speaker 2: no way around this. So whilst things stay the same

940
00:52:03,942 --> 00:52:06,542
Speaker 2: as they are, while that legislation is worded the way

941
00:52:06,582 --> 00:52:10,782
Speaker 2: it is, then my understanding from my law colleague is

942
00:52:10,822 --> 00:52:13,822
Speaker 2: that she will remain in prison until she has completed

943
00:52:13,862 --> 00:52:14,942
Speaker 2: her full sentence.

944
00:52:15,742 --> 00:52:18,942
Speaker 1: You've written a lot about mothers who murder. We've spoken

945
00:52:18,982 --> 00:52:22,142
Speaker 1: about Kathleen Folbig, the fact that she got out we

946
00:52:22,182 --> 00:52:25,062
Speaker 1: haven't touched on. But Lindy Chamberlain was also a miscarriage

947
00:52:25,062 --> 00:52:25,582
Speaker 1: of justice.

948
00:52:26,222 --> 00:52:27,822
Speaker 2: Absolutely, she was the first post.

949
00:52:27,822 --> 00:52:30,622
Speaker 1: She was the first post child. Do you think it's

950
00:52:30,702 --> 00:52:33,102
Speaker 1: women that get caught up in this? Why is it

951
00:52:33,142 --> 00:52:36,862
Speaker 1: so different when dads kill? When mums kill? There seems

952
00:52:36,862 --> 00:52:39,582
Speaker 1: to be a much more visceral reaction from society.

953
00:52:40,222 --> 00:52:43,702
Speaker 2: Absolutely. The whole reason I started writing the book was

954
00:52:43,742 --> 00:52:47,462
Speaker 2: I came across Catholbigg's case and some of the expert

955
00:52:47,702 --> 00:52:49,462
Speaker 2: commentary that had come out of the UK that was

956
00:52:49,462 --> 00:52:51,902
Speaker 2: still influential in that case, and the whole trigger for

957
00:52:51,942 --> 00:52:54,062
Speaker 2: the book was that. But then I went back and

958
00:52:54,102 --> 00:52:56,942
Speaker 2: I found the case of Lindy Chamberlain and Honestly, I

959
00:52:57,022 --> 00:52:59,782
Speaker 2: could not believe we were still having these conversations about

960
00:52:59,782 --> 00:53:02,102
Speaker 2: you know, these cold hearted women. They were all painted

961
00:53:02,582 --> 00:53:05,022
Speaker 2: in the same way. You know, they were emotionless, they

962
00:53:05,062 --> 00:53:08,102
Speaker 2: were cold. And I remember thinking when I looked at

963
00:53:08,142 --> 00:53:12,342
Speaker 2: some videos of both Lindy and kath and Kelly actually

964
00:53:12,422 --> 00:53:15,542
Speaker 2: going into court that if I had been accused of

965
00:53:15,582 --> 00:53:18,622
Speaker 2: something serious, I would have acted exactly the same, Like

966
00:53:18,902 --> 00:53:21,422
Speaker 2: there wouldn't be any tears on the outside. It would

967
00:53:21,422 --> 00:53:24,222
Speaker 2: be like stone. That's how I would handle my emotions right,

968
00:53:24,902 --> 00:53:27,462
Speaker 2: And think it's easy to judge what's going on on

969
00:53:27,502 --> 00:53:29,982
Speaker 2: the outside, but that has no reflection of what's happening

970
00:53:30,022 --> 00:53:33,702
Speaker 2: on the inside at all. Like people would often think that,

971
00:53:33,742 --> 00:53:35,462
Speaker 2: you know, I'm very calm doing something and it could

972
00:53:35,502 --> 00:53:37,702
Speaker 2: be all like going crazy on the inside, but you

973
00:53:37,742 --> 00:53:40,062
Speaker 2: would never know on the outside. And I think that

974
00:53:40,222 --> 00:53:43,222
Speaker 2: when a woman looks cold and together, it can be

975
00:53:43,302 --> 00:53:46,062
Speaker 2: really easy to judge her because we're the nurturers, right,

976
00:53:46,262 --> 00:53:48,662
Speaker 2: we all love children, not me. I don't have any

977
00:53:48,822 --> 00:53:51,302
Speaker 2: very happy to letveryone else do that. And so, but

978
00:53:51,382 --> 00:53:55,462
Speaker 2: there's certain expectations on you as a female to behave

979
00:53:55,502 --> 00:53:58,422
Speaker 2: in a certain way, and when you break that tradition,

980
00:53:58,582 --> 00:54:02,702
Speaker 2: that social expectation, and it's often women that respond really

981
00:54:02,782 --> 00:54:06,142
Speaker 2: viscerally to this. There's almost no punishment that is too serious,

982
00:54:06,182 --> 00:54:09,022
Speaker 2: you know, hang or and quarter these women. But when

983
00:54:09,062 --> 00:54:11,422
Speaker 2: men do it is almost like, well, men can be violent,

984
00:54:12,022 --> 00:54:14,582
Speaker 2: we expect that. What do women do to protect themselves

985
00:54:14,622 --> 00:54:19,182
Speaker 2: from male violence? Because you know, males just can't help themselves, right, yeah, right.

986
00:54:19,342 --> 00:54:21,182
Speaker 2: But when a woman does it, it's like, oh, well, she's

987
00:54:21,182 --> 00:54:24,022
Speaker 2: obviously evil, you know, and they just they paint this

988
00:54:24,102 --> 00:54:26,782
Speaker 2: picture almost like this witch. And I just think that

989
00:54:26,862 --> 00:54:29,022
Speaker 2: we're still doing it. I mean when some women ask me, oh,

990
00:54:29,062 --> 00:54:31,422
Speaker 2: do you have children? I say no, and they go oh,

991
00:54:31,502 --> 00:54:34,742
Speaker 2: I go no, no, no, no, it's actually fine. It's a choice.

992
00:54:34,782 --> 00:54:37,862
Speaker 2: And then they go, h like what is wrong with you?

993
00:54:38,022 --> 00:54:40,022
Speaker 2: That's the other face I get when you say you

994
00:54:40,022 --> 00:54:43,022
Speaker 2: don't want them, because it's like this this automatic where

995
00:54:43,062 --> 00:54:45,982
Speaker 2: you should love children. Men don't do that. I think

996
00:54:46,022 --> 00:54:49,062
Speaker 2: mostly it's women projecting this onto other women that if

997
00:54:49,102 --> 00:54:51,862
Speaker 2: you're not a nurturer, there's something wrong with you. And

998
00:54:51,902 --> 00:54:53,822
Speaker 2: I think we have to break down that narrative because

999
00:54:53,822 --> 00:54:56,022
Speaker 2: I think all three of these women were prosecuted under

1000
00:54:56,022 --> 00:55:03,182
Speaker 2: that fallacy Lindy, kath and Kelly and probably many others.

1001
00:55:05,742 --> 00:55:09,462
Speaker 1: Thanks to Zanthy for helping us tell Kelly's story. Xanthe

1002
00:55:09,542 --> 00:55:12,662
Speaker 1: recently did an episod about this case on her podcast

1003
00:55:12,862 --> 00:55:15,782
Speaker 1: Motive and Method. If you'd like to hear that, you

1004
00:55:15,822 --> 00:55:18,942
Speaker 1: can find it linked in our show notes. True Crime

1005
00:55:18,942 --> 00:55:22,182
Speaker 1: Conversations is a Muma mea podcast hosted and produced by

1006
00:55:22,222 --> 00:55:26,062
Speaker 1: me Jemma Bass and Sandy McIntyre, with audio design by

1007
00:55:26,142 --> 00:55:30,902
Speaker 1: Scott Stronik. Our executive producer is Geomoulin. If you enjoyed

1008
00:55:30,902 --> 00:55:33,702
Speaker 1: this episode, let us know you can leave a review

1009
00:55:33,782 --> 00:55:35,982
Speaker 1: on your favorite podcast app and it helps us make

1010
00:55:35,982 --> 00:55:38,462
Speaker 1: it into the charts so that other true crime fans

1011
00:55:38,542 --> 00:55:41,542
Speaker 1: can find our work. Thanks so much for listening. I'll

1012
00:55:41,542 --> 00:55:57,502
Speaker 1: be back next week with another true Crime Conversation. Next

1013
00:55:57,502 --> 00:55:59,902
Speaker 1: week on the podcast, I'll be joined by former crime

1014
00:55:59,942 --> 00:56:03,342
Speaker 1: prosecutor Margaret Kneen, sc who will share her insights on

1015
00:56:03,462 --> 00:56:07,542
Speaker 1: leading the prosecution of the notorious two thousand scaff gang rapes,

1016
00:56:07,902 --> 00:56:11,622
Speaker 1: as well as her experiences handling numerous high profile cases

1017
00:56:11,662 --> 00:56:15,022
Speaker 1: throughout her career, first as a prosecutor and now as

1018
00:56:15,062 --> 00:56:18,542
Speaker 1: a criminal defense barrister. In the meantime, if you're looking

1019
00:56:18,582 --> 00:56:21,302
Speaker 1: for more to listen to. At the end of last year,

1020
00:56:21,422 --> 00:56:25,782
Speaker 1: I had a compelling conversation with journalist Richard Baker about

1021
00:56:25,782 --> 00:56:29,942
Speaker 1: one of Australia's longest running colts, the Geelong Revival Center,

1022
00:56:30,382 --> 00:56:33,382
Speaker 1: and the chilling accounts from ex members. You'll find a

1023
00:56:33,422 --> 00:56:35,462
Speaker 1: link to that episode in our show notes. If you

1024
00:56:35,502 --> 00:56:38,342
Speaker 1: missed it, Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back

1025
00:56:38,422 --> 00:56:39,862
Speaker 1: in your ears next week.