WEBVTT - Jameela Jamil Knows How To Take Down Andrew Tate

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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to a Mama Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges

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<v Speaker 1>the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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<v Speaker 1>is recorded on.

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<v Speaker 2>We can't be like men, a trash man, A trash man,

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<v Speaker 2>a trash We cannot keep going with this ship. There's

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<v Speaker 2>Miss Andrews shit that's going on that I've been against

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<v Speaker 2>from the very start that I don't think I participated

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<v Speaker 2>in too much, because then, of course, why the fuck

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<v Speaker 2>could teenage boys side with us?

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<v Speaker 1>Why would they think we're a welcoming space to go to?

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<v Speaker 3>Jamila Jamil has never been to Australia, but she feels

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<v Speaker 3>like one of us. She loves to swear, carries a

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<v Speaker 3>nonchalant charm, and has a self assuredness that's genuinely refreshing

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<v Speaker 3>to be around. You might know Jamila as Tahani from

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<v Speaker 3>The Good Place, a role she landed without any formal

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<v Speaker 3>acting training, but in recent years she's become just as

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<v Speaker 3>well known for her activism, speaking out powerfully on issues

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<v Speaker 3>like body image, mental health, and gender equality. Given her

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<v Speaker 3>outspoken advocacy and what she describes as biting the hand

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<v Speaker 3>that feeds her, it's no surprise that Jamila and I

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<v Speaker 3>dove straight into the deep stuff. We talked body image,

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<v Speaker 3>the chaos of the online world, and her call to

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<v Speaker 3>rebrand toxic masculinity. When I asked about Andrew Tate, she

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<v Speaker 3>didn't miss a beat. Why give men like him airtime

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<v Speaker 3>when we should be championing the good ones instead?

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<v Speaker 1>We also talked.

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<v Speaker 3>About friendship and its role in our mental health, the

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<v Speaker 3>importance of lifting each other up, and something I really loved,

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<v Speaker 3>Jamilla's appreciation for aging. She's counting down to her fortieth

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<v Speaker 3>birthday just ten months away and says she couldn't be

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<v Speaker 3>happier to put her twenties behind her. A conversation with

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<v Speaker 3>Jamila Jamil feels like an off the cuff ted talk,

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<v Speaker 3>smart and funny and passionate and completely and filtered.

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<v Speaker 1>Here's Jamila Jamale. Hello, how welcome to No Filter. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm great. You've come from a busy life.

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<v Speaker 3>What was the nature of the whirl wind that blew

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<v Speaker 3>you into us today on No Filter? Oh?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I'm recording a new podcast that comes out

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<v Speaker 2>on May seventh, which is called Wrong Turns, and it's

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<v Speaker 2>all about I'm just fucking sick of this inspirational, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>just poorn life that we're in where everything has to

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<v Speaker 2>have some sort of fucking silver lining. So I decided

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<v Speaker 2>to make a podcast about all the dumber shit we

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<v Speaker 2>ever did that There was no great pearl of wisdom

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<v Speaker 2>from there was no silver lining.

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<v Speaker 1>Sometimes we actually get dumber, you know, from that decision.

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<v Speaker 2>And so it's it's all of our bad decisions and

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<v Speaker 2>mishaps that are just kind of anti inspiration pro commiseration.

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<v Speaker 2>So I'm currently recording that before I come over to

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<v Speaker 2>Australia to be with you, which is really exciting. And

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<v Speaker 2>then I'm just writing a lot, writing substat writing books,

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<v Speaker 2>and I've got a Pixel movie coming out in June

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<v Speaker 2>that's Oh.

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<v Speaker 1>Really, are you an animation? I am. I'm a bloody animation.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm a big orange squid thing. But I hope with

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<v Speaker 1>shiny hair.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh I don't think. I don't think i'll have hair,

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<v Speaker 2>But I am shiny. I'm definitely shiny. I'm shiny, I'm sparkly,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm some sort of like obscene ambassador.

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<v Speaker 1>It's all going to be very extra Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>Good, Well, this is what I expect from you, and

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<v Speaker 3>in fact, I think the world is coming to expect

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<v Speaker 3>that from you.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh God, it depends whether they read the daily mail

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<v Speaker 2>or not.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, here's the thing about you. Now, this is a

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<v Speaker 3>lot of people know you from the good place, right.

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<v Speaker 3>And when I first saw you, and it was in

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<v Speaker 3>a part in her life when we were I have

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<v Speaker 3>four children.

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<v Speaker 1>We were living in Italy for a couple of years.

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<v Speaker 3>Madness, but so we weren't exposed to a lot of

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<v Speaker 3>that ancillary media that you see when you're in your

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<v Speaker 3>native country.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so I didn't.

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<v Speaker 3>Know you from some of the Yes, yeah I didn't know.

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<v Speaker 3>I saw you on that And this is what I

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<v Speaker 3>thought about you, like enough to do a deep dive

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<v Speaker 3>on you. You know how sometimes people just capture you.

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<v Speaker 3>You've captured a lot of people. I thought that you

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<v Speaker 3>were posh, right, I thought you were posh, and I

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<v Speaker 3>thought you had a posh must have had a posh background.

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<v Speaker 3>And so to have learnt about your upbringing and the

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<v Speaker 3>pain that you experienced as a child, that has led

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<v Speaker 3>you to somehow essue the privileges and all the beautiful things.

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<v Speaker 1>That you say.

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<v Speaker 2>Is that has led me to annihilating my own career

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<v Speaker 2>by every time it feeds me, because I feel very

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<v Speaker 2>passionately about people.

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<v Speaker 1>Who don't have a lot.

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<v Speaker 3>But yeah, yes, well it's an extraordinary thing because we

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<v Speaker 3>do know, those of us who work in any platform

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<v Speaker 3>really where you can you can make choices to pursue

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<v Speaker 3>certain goals, and they might be you could have been

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<v Speaker 3>a material girl.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, I could have.

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<v Speaker 2>There are days where I think maybe I should have.

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<v Speaker 2>But generally I sleep better at night if at all,

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<v Speaker 2>knowing that I've taken the path I have because I

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<v Speaker 2>you know, my inner twelve year old follows me everywhere

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<v Speaker 2>and she's such a judgmental little bitch that I just

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<v Speaker 2>wouldn't be able to get anything past her.

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<v Speaker 1>I have. I have to.

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<v Speaker 2>Do what I do otherwise she'll, you know, she'll give

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<v Speaker 2>me the stinkye and I can't bear it.

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<v Speaker 1>So everything I do is for her. And a child

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<v Speaker 1>stinkite is the worst.

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<v Speaker 2>The worst, because they really, like, you know, they're hard

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<v Speaker 2>to that.

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<v Speaker 1>Kids really get it. They can really see you.

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<v Speaker 2>That's why there's nothing worse than when you pick up

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<v Speaker 2>a baby and it cries.

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<v Speaker 1>You're like, fuck, you can see.

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<v Speaker 2>I've got no soul shit, Or when a dog barks

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<v Speaker 2>at you.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, yeah, it's embarrassing, you like feel as so.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and much rather an adult hates me than a baby.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, speaking of hating you, Yeah, but you are coming

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<v Speaker 3>to Australia, Yes.

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<v Speaker 1>You're You're here next week, which is a rare trait.

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<v Speaker 1>Have you been here before? I've never been. I've always

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to go.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh really Yeah. I watched a movie called The Castle

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<v Speaker 2>when I was a child, and I became obsessed with

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<v Speaker 2>Australian culture after that. And then obviously it's like Muriel's

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<v Speaker 2>Wedding I think had come out just before then, which

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<v Speaker 2>I then started watching religiously and then consuming it.

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<v Speaker 1>Katherine Kim Yeah, yeah, I think him.

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<v Speaker 2>And so like I've always like, you know, all the

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<v Speaker 2>stuff that I watch on like on social media is

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<v Speaker 2>all like Australian comedy that I've just been. I've had

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<v Speaker 2>a long running obsession with Australia and never managed to

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<v Speaker 2>get out there because it's such a long flight and

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<v Speaker 2>also I just didn't know if anyone would want to

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<v Speaker 2>see me out there. But then when I was invited

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<v Speaker 2>to come speak.

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<v Speaker 1>I was like one hundred percent yes, get me there now.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, so, because you do have an Australian ness to

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<v Speaker 3>your energy, which is you're a massive swear, massive swear.

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<v Speaker 3>But there's a forthrightness to you. Yeah, and so when

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<v Speaker 3>you come out here and it's described as a as

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<v Speaker 3>a night of candid conversation and so hard chat and

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<v Speaker 3>silly discussion, the hard chat, I know you can go hard.

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<v Speaker 3>What will be the hard chat? Can I guess some

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<v Speaker 3>of it? I mean, I'm sure you can body stuff?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, men.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, toxic masculinity, which which is I don't know what

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<v Speaker 3>term exists anymore, Like it's not masculinity, whatever the fuck

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<v Speaker 3>that is is not masculinity.

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<v Speaker 2>I know what musculinity is. I love musculinity. Not only

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<v Speaker 2>do I have musculinity within myself, but my boyfriend is

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<v Speaker 2>a very masculine man. Whatever I'm seeing in that other

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<v Speaker 2>ship has got to have a new name.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, So but yeah, sorry, it'll be a well no,

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<v Speaker 3>I was going to say in your your great since

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<v Speaker 3>renamed podcast, Iwagh, that was always very interesting. You had

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<v Speaker 3>a conversation with James Baldoni in which Jason and it

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<v Speaker 3>was justin Baldoni Sorry, I'm trying to invoke your boyfriend

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<v Speaker 3>as well, where he said he didn't like the term

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<v Speaker 3>toxic masculinity, which was the first.

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<v Speaker 1>Time really that I had thought about that.

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<v Speaker 3>Through that prism since then, because that was a couple

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<v Speaker 3>of years ago, things have escalated, Yeah, fast, What is it?

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<v Speaker 1>Do you think it's a couple off and things?

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<v Speaker 2>It's you know, I think part of it is the

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<v Speaker 2>fact that the Internet means that everything moves so fast

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<v Speaker 2>and snowballs. But I think ultimately it's the male loneliness epidemic.

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<v Speaker 2>And rather than them looking up the fact that the

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<v Speaker 2>patriarchy destroys men's lives, they look at us as the problem.

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<v Speaker 2>They see that women are getting ahead. We know, we're

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<v Speaker 2>doing better at school. We learn to read and write

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<v Speaker 2>faster than boys, and we generally tend to excel at

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<v Speaker 2>secondary school. We are buying houses faster than boys. We

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<v Speaker 2>are securing ourselves financially. The vibrators have become brilliant, and

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<v Speaker 2>women friendships are stronger than they've ever been, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>post media movement, women have become less divisive towards one another,

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<v Speaker 2>and we've started to really pair up and find that

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<v Speaker 2>got a lot of what I need from a relationship,

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<v Speaker 2>what're mctually getting from my mates? And so really now

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<v Speaker 2>our standard has become very high of that I don't

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<v Speaker 2>need you, I want to want someone. You know, I

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<v Speaker 2>was just talking about this recently on another podcast, that

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<v Speaker 2>I don't need my boyfriend.

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<v Speaker 1>I make as much money as him.

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<v Speaker 2>I can afford my house on my own, I have

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<v Speaker 2>a great circle of friends.

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<v Speaker 1>He's in my life because I want him, not because

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<v Speaker 1>I need him.

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<v Speaker 2>And and I think that men have no tools as

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<v Speaker 2>to rise to the occasion to be the emotionally intelligent

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<v Speaker 2>partners in crime that we need.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's easier just to drag us down.

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<v Speaker 2>It's easier to drag us back down to where we

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<v Speaker 2>were before rather than level up to where women are now.

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<v Speaker 1>And we see that all the time. We've seen that

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<v Speaker 1>throughout history.

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<v Speaker 2>Anytime women start to excel, rather than men going fuck,

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<v Speaker 2>they're kind of keep catching up with us, or they're

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<v Speaker 2>getting ahead. We need to step up our game, they

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<v Speaker 2>just go, okay, let's just rip them back down, take

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<v Speaker 2>away their rights, distract them, make them feel ugly, make

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<v Speaker 2>them feel old, scare the shit out of them, and

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<v Speaker 2>then they'll feel like they need us again. And that

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<v Speaker 2>to me is just very sad because then men miss

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<v Speaker 2>out on evolding.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, that's the theories, you know, it's a if you

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<v Speaker 3>play a part in your own demise, that's kind of

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<v Speaker 3>what's happening with a lot of men because of the isolation,

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<v Speaker 3>the alienation from women, They denied the gifts that women

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<v Speaker 3>bring to life.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but also they're not taught even how to talk

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<v Speaker 1>to each other.

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<v Speaker 2>The amount of times I'll fucking i'll know so much

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<v Speaker 2>more about my male friends than my male friends know

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<v Speaker 2>about each other. And they've known each other for longer.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll know one of them is going through a divorce,

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<v Speaker 2>or one of them suicidal, or one of them struggling

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<v Speaker 2>with anxiety or a rectile fucking dysfunction, and they may

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<v Speaker 2>have no idea about any of this. They don't talk

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<v Speaker 2>to each other. Like how many times have you heard

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<v Speaker 2>a like a middle let Like you heard your dad

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<v Speaker 2>come home from seeing another dad who's going through a

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<v Speaker 2>divorce and asked him how he's doing? Is like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>I never came up. It's just they don't talk to

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<v Speaker 2>each other, you know. Katlain Moran wrote this fucking brilliant

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<v Speaker 2>book called What About Boys, and she talks about the

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<v Speaker 2>fact that men don't even plan for their third act.

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<v Speaker 2>Women are continuously planning for their third act. We're gathering

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<v Speaker 2>our friendship, strengthening the ones that we want to really

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<v Speaker 2>grow old with. You know, we're plotting our lives for

0:12:10.005 --> 0:12:12.965
<v Speaker 2>when the children grow up and leave the home. Men don't.

0:12:13.045 --> 0:12:15.405
<v Speaker 2>Men just start to atrophy once they get married and

0:12:15.445 --> 0:12:17.445
<v Speaker 2>they stop keeping up with their friendships as much, and

0:12:17.485 --> 0:12:19.365
<v Speaker 2>then they kind of settle on the idea that well,

0:12:19.405 --> 0:12:21.965
<v Speaker 2>I guess I'll just become friends with whoever the husband

0:12:22.045 --> 0:12:25.045
<v Speaker 2>is of my wife's friends, and she'll organize our social calendar.

0:12:25.125 --> 0:12:28.845
<v Speaker 2>And that's fucking devastating for them. They're not taught to

0:12:29.405 --> 0:12:33.085
<v Speaker 2>build out their emotional skill sets, and it's hurting them

0:12:33.085 --> 0:12:35.085
<v Speaker 2>because look at how fast they're killing themselves. You know,

0:12:35.125 --> 0:12:37.365
<v Speaker 2>America's got all this gun death. Sixty percent of that

0:12:37.405 --> 0:12:40.205
<v Speaker 2>gun death is men turning the gun on themselves. There's

0:12:40.205 --> 0:12:43.005
<v Speaker 2>a reason more men kill themselves than women, and it's

0:12:43.005 --> 0:12:45.165
<v Speaker 2>because women have each other. Men don't have each other,

0:12:45.285 --> 0:12:46.645
<v Speaker 2>and they don't really have us.

0:12:51.165 --> 0:12:54.165
<v Speaker 3>Coming up after this short break, Jamila, she is the

0:12:54.285 --> 0:12:57.885
<v Speaker 3>mean we should be talking about. I mean, when I

0:12:57.925 --> 0:13:01.325
<v Speaker 3>say she shares them, we discuss them anyway.

0:13:01.365 --> 0:13:02.365
<v Speaker 1>We'll be right back.

0:13:06.045 --> 0:13:10.685
<v Speaker 3>So when we're like having this discussion, Yeah, how do

0:13:10.845 --> 0:13:16.725
<v Speaker 3>we have the discussion without other ring meen from that process?

0:13:17.485 --> 0:13:18.525
<v Speaker 1>Is it up to us?

0:13:18.685 --> 0:13:22.445
<v Speaker 3>Is it up to women, which is such a mind

0:13:22.485 --> 0:13:24.805
<v Speaker 3>boggle to try and draw men in.

0:13:26.525 --> 0:13:29.365
<v Speaker 1>I think you're not gonna like answer, well, I know,

0:13:29.485 --> 0:13:33.565
<v Speaker 1>I I tell me, I think it is. I think

0:13:33.605 --> 0:13:33.925
<v Speaker 1>it is.

0:13:34.125 --> 0:13:37.125
<v Speaker 2>I think we You know, men are on the fucking

0:13:37.165 --> 0:13:40.085
<v Speaker 2>front lines, literally with their bodies. And maybe there aren't

0:13:40.165 --> 0:13:42.405
<v Speaker 2>that many wars in all of our countries, right, but

0:13:42.685 --> 0:13:44.765
<v Speaker 2>whenever there is any kind of shit that goes down,

0:13:44.805 --> 0:13:46.605
<v Speaker 2>it's men who were sent. To the point where when

0:13:46.605 --> 0:13:49.005
<v Speaker 2>we talk about who dies at war, we talk about

0:13:49.045 --> 0:13:51.245
<v Speaker 2>women and children. We never talk about how many men

0:13:51.365 --> 0:13:53.965
<v Speaker 2>died at war. We're like, and women and children were killed.

0:13:54.005 --> 0:13:57.885
<v Speaker 2>They're seen as completely fucking disposable, and they have built

0:13:58.045 --> 0:14:01.725
<v Speaker 2>these worlds for us. They have built much of this world,

0:14:01.765 --> 0:14:03.965
<v Speaker 2>and that has not necessarily been our choice. We would

0:14:03.965 --> 0:14:05.885
<v Speaker 2>have happily it was three hundred and fifty women who

0:14:05.965 --> 0:14:08.805
<v Speaker 2>built the Waterloo Bridge. Women are perfectly capable and could

0:14:08.845 --> 0:14:11.485
<v Speaker 2>have definitely participated in that. We're held back. But the

0:14:11.525 --> 0:14:13.845
<v Speaker 2>point is is that men put their bodies on the line.

0:14:14.005 --> 0:14:16.845
<v Speaker 2>That's where they are superior to ours is in their physicality.

0:14:17.325 --> 0:14:21.005
<v Speaker 2>Our superiority comes in our emotional intelligence. So therefore, let's

0:14:21.045 --> 0:14:22.965
<v Speaker 2>bring that to the table. Our bodies will never be

0:14:23.045 --> 0:14:25.805
<v Speaker 2>frontline on a war. Our bodies will never be used

0:14:25.845 --> 0:14:27.845
<v Speaker 2>for physical labor or down the minds and the same

0:14:27.925 --> 0:14:31.645
<v Speaker 2>numbers that men's are. So let us step up and

0:14:31.725 --> 0:14:34.125
<v Speaker 2>use the thing that we're fucking brilliant at, which is

0:14:34.165 --> 0:14:37.605
<v Speaker 2>showing people how to communicate with each other, how to build.

0:14:37.725 --> 0:14:40.605
<v Speaker 2>You know that women are so intelligent and powerful. We

0:14:40.645 --> 0:14:43.645
<v Speaker 2>have all these gifts, and by just keeping them amongst

0:14:43.685 --> 0:14:47.525
<v Speaker 2>ourselves and hoarding them and not going out there and

0:14:47.565 --> 0:14:51.605
<v Speaker 2>reaching out to and across two men, we're suffering because

0:14:51.765 --> 0:14:54.765
<v Speaker 2>then the more crazy they become, the more they hurt us.

0:14:55.045 --> 0:14:57.765
<v Speaker 2>So it's in our best interest to use this superpower

0:14:57.805 --> 0:15:00.525
<v Speaker 2>we have and share it and share the tools of

0:15:00.565 --> 0:15:01.645
<v Speaker 2>it with them.

0:15:01.885 --> 0:15:04.525
<v Speaker 3>That's my opinion. And some people really don't like that.

0:15:05.245 --> 0:15:09.045
<v Speaker 3>I can imagine that people don't like it. But also

0:15:09.085 --> 0:15:13.285
<v Speaker 3>be any discussion about this is so people are so

0:15:13.365 --> 0:15:16.845
<v Speaker 3>binary in their opinions now, which is not working.

0:15:17.165 --> 0:15:19.445
<v Speaker 2>No, But also, like listen, we're just so fucking emotional

0:15:19.485 --> 0:15:21.485
<v Speaker 2>about everything, and I don't think we ever step back

0:15:21.925 --> 0:15:24.765
<v Speaker 2>and are encouraged to be logical or to have critical thinking.

0:15:24.885 --> 0:15:25.125
<v Speaker 1>Right.

0:15:25.445 --> 0:15:29.605
<v Speaker 2>Logically, of course, if you have but the superiority in

0:15:29.645 --> 0:15:32.165
<v Speaker 2>a skill, you should go and teach the others if

0:15:32.205 --> 0:15:33.925
<v Speaker 2>you want the whole land to be.

0:15:33.925 --> 0:15:35.445
<v Speaker 1>Able to do that skill.

0:15:35.525 --> 0:15:35.685
<v Speaker 2>Right.

0:15:35.765 --> 0:15:37.165
<v Speaker 1>But I understand why women.

0:15:37.245 --> 0:15:39.765
<v Speaker 2>I have been one of those women, those loud, angry

0:15:39.805 --> 0:15:43.605
<v Speaker 2>feminist women who just thinks, well, fuck off, why should

0:15:43.645 --> 0:15:45.605
<v Speaker 2>we have to do this work for you? Figure out?

0:15:46.045 --> 0:15:49.845
<v Speaker 2>They literally can't. And instead of figuring out, because they're

0:15:50.005 --> 0:15:53.445
<v Speaker 2>so bad at this, they're just stripping our rights and

0:15:53.485 --> 0:15:57.005
<v Speaker 2>taking us back to the nineteen twenties. That's what's happening.

0:15:57.045 --> 0:15:59.405
<v Speaker 2>They have no idea, they don't have the manual of

0:15:59.445 --> 0:16:01.805
<v Speaker 2>how to rise up to our level. So we've got

0:16:01.845 --> 0:16:04.205
<v Speaker 2>to show them for our sake.

0:16:05.005 --> 0:16:06.445
<v Speaker 1>Yes, for everybody's sake.

0:16:06.885 --> 0:16:10.525
<v Speaker 3>But you know how you say you have changed in

0:16:10.565 --> 0:16:15.085
<v Speaker 3>your approach, you know your thoughts about this. What is

0:16:15.125 --> 0:16:17.445
<v Speaker 3>the process that led you to the change?

0:16:17.805 --> 0:16:19.565
<v Speaker 2>I think it was watching the way that everyone spoke

0:16:19.605 --> 0:16:22.765
<v Speaker 2>to each other during COVID. You know, everyone split off

0:16:22.805 --> 0:16:27.005
<v Speaker 2>into kind of two camps. And I was so dehumanizing

0:16:27.005 --> 0:16:29.645
<v Speaker 2>and hideous to each other so fast, and like mates

0:16:29.645 --> 0:16:32.685
<v Speaker 2>who've been friends for years, we're not talking to each.

0:16:32.565 --> 0:16:35.485
<v Speaker 1>Other anymore, and the language became so violent.

0:16:35.565 --> 0:16:37.165
<v Speaker 2>I was looking at the way that people felt comfortable

0:16:37.165 --> 0:16:40.125
<v Speaker 2>to speak to each other everywhere. And I thought, oh,

0:16:40.205 --> 0:16:43.605
<v Speaker 2>I've got a little footprint in this, because I rose

0:16:43.845 --> 0:16:48.005
<v Speaker 2>to prominence as someone who's a you know, brash straight talker,

0:16:48.485 --> 0:16:50.965
<v Speaker 2>very like, fuck you and you can fuck off, and

0:16:51.005 --> 0:16:53.725
<v Speaker 2>you're an in cell and you're a twat, and you know,

0:16:54.365 --> 0:16:57.405
<v Speaker 2>just like I was very finger pointing, very rude, very judgmental,

0:16:57.565 --> 0:17:01.205
<v Speaker 2>very alienating. And I was congratulated for that. I was

0:17:01.245 --> 0:17:03.645
<v Speaker 2>rewarded for it. I was decorated for it. I was called,

0:17:03.725 --> 0:17:05.165
<v Speaker 2>you know, Harper's magazine called me.

0:17:05.365 --> 0:17:06.885
<v Speaker 1>Like the feminist hero we need.

0:17:06.965 --> 0:17:09.325
<v Speaker 2>I was named as one of Time magazines twenty five

0:17:09.445 --> 0:17:11.365
<v Speaker 2>most influential women. I was put on the cover of

0:17:11.445 --> 0:17:14.365
<v Speaker 2>like five different vogues. I couldn't there couldn't have been

0:17:14.405 --> 0:17:17.605
<v Speaker 2>more of a message out there that behaving like me

0:17:18.405 --> 0:17:21.005
<v Speaker 2>is the right thing to do, and this will get

0:17:21.005 --> 0:17:23.485
<v Speaker 2>you ahead, and this is the right way to communicate

0:17:23.525 --> 0:17:26.525
<v Speaker 2>your feelings and your activism and your passion. So by

0:17:26.565 --> 0:17:29.645
<v Speaker 2>my being so decorated for what is objectively actually not

0:17:29.725 --> 0:17:31.485
<v Speaker 2>very helpful behavior, I helped.

0:17:31.685 --> 0:17:32.205
<v Speaker 1>I helped.

0:17:32.205 --> 0:17:33.845
<v Speaker 2>I don't think I was responsible for it. I think

0:17:33.925 --> 0:17:36.765
<v Speaker 2>Piers Morgan's got his own bigger footprint. But I helped

0:17:36.845 --> 0:17:40.005
<v Speaker 2>contribute to a world that speaks to each other in

0:17:40.045 --> 0:17:45.085
<v Speaker 2>a dehumanizing, impatient, and unempathetic way. And when I recognized

0:17:45.605 --> 0:17:49.565
<v Speaker 2>my contribution to that culture, I was like, right, I'm

0:17:49.565 --> 0:17:51.325
<v Speaker 2>going to fucking do something about this now. And so

0:17:51.325 --> 0:17:53.845
<v Speaker 2>I spent the last four years trying to atone for

0:17:53.925 --> 0:17:57.085
<v Speaker 2>it with a full mea culpa and trying to encourage

0:17:57.125 --> 0:18:01.085
<v Speaker 2>people to actually move forward with logic and empathy.

0:18:02.365 --> 0:18:07.485
<v Speaker 3>And so because also your mastery of a pithy phrase

0:18:07.685 --> 0:18:09.005
<v Speaker 3>is you mean what.

0:18:09.085 --> 0:18:14.765
<v Speaker 1>I call Lawrence Fox are freshly wranked col Yes, yes,

0:18:14.845 --> 0:18:21.845
<v Speaker 1>I yes, I do not my finest hour, but you know.

0:18:22.645 --> 0:18:27.605
<v Speaker 3>No, there's something to be our very t shirt worthy.

0:18:28.605 --> 0:18:30.685
<v Speaker 1>But what was the moment?

0:18:30.765 --> 0:18:36.525
<v Speaker 3>Because for us to make progress now requires a shift

0:18:36.645 --> 0:18:42.405
<v Speaker 3>in thinking, yes, and it requires us to instead look externally,

0:18:42.445 --> 0:18:45.085
<v Speaker 3>because as you sort of alluded to, it's very easy

0:18:45.125 --> 0:18:45.605
<v Speaker 3>in this world to.

0:18:45.605 --> 0:18:48.205
<v Speaker 1>Go will you do this? And we need to look internally,

0:18:48.285 --> 0:18:51.085
<v Speaker 1>not externally. All we've been doing is looking externally. What

0:18:51.125 --> 0:18:54.885
<v Speaker 1>we need to be doing is going right. Why how

0:18:54.925 --> 0:18:56.365
<v Speaker 1>do I learn best?

0:18:56.645 --> 0:19:01.005
<v Speaker 2>Do I learn best when I'm being shamed, labeled, screamed at,

0:19:01.485 --> 0:19:04.885
<v Speaker 2>or spoken down to or do I learn best when

0:19:04.885 --> 0:19:08.045
<v Speaker 2>someone's being a little bit patient with me but firm

0:19:08.245 --> 0:19:10.565
<v Speaker 2>and giving me the fact yes, and giving me a

0:19:10.605 --> 0:19:13.005
<v Speaker 2>bit of the benefit of the doubt and giving me

0:19:13.125 --> 0:19:16.845
<v Speaker 2>time to adjust. Obviously we all learn better with the latter.

0:19:17.125 --> 0:19:18.725
<v Speaker 2>So how the fuck did we think the way that

0:19:18.725 --> 0:19:20.445
<v Speaker 2>we were going about things was going to work for

0:19:20.485 --> 0:19:23.085
<v Speaker 2>anyone else when that's not how any of us learn

0:19:23.285 --> 0:19:26.605
<v Speaker 2>No one learns well under duress. And because we were

0:19:26.605 --> 0:19:30.085
<v Speaker 2>so angry, rightfully so, and we will be angry again

0:19:30.125 --> 0:19:33.085
<v Speaker 2>when the shit's over, when the pendulum swings back, which

0:19:33.085 --> 0:19:35.845
<v Speaker 2>it inevitably will, we have got to do a better

0:19:35.925 --> 0:19:39.405
<v Speaker 2>job at taking a breath and thinking, how am I

0:19:39.565 --> 0:19:43.125
<v Speaker 2>most like? My main objective is not to communicate how

0:19:43.165 --> 0:19:46.205
<v Speaker 2>angry I am or get revenge. My main objective is change.

0:19:46.445 --> 0:19:49.965
<v Speaker 2>How do I most effectively get change? And that's by

0:19:49.965 --> 0:19:52.045
<v Speaker 2>speaking to someone in a way that they're actually going

0:19:52.125 --> 0:19:53.725
<v Speaker 2>to hear you, they're actually.

0:19:53.285 --> 0:19:55.365
<v Speaker 1>Going to learn, and they're more likely going to emphathize

0:19:55.365 --> 0:19:55.605
<v Speaker 1>with you.

0:19:56.565 --> 0:20:01.165
<v Speaker 3>Interesting because I have four children, three of them are boys,

0:20:01.685 --> 0:20:08.165
<v Speaker 3>double well done, very like a fascinating a living experiment,

0:20:08.245 --> 0:20:11.325
<v Speaker 3>if you will, And the eldest is twenty one now

0:20:11.325 --> 0:20:13.605
<v Speaker 3>the youngest is fifteen, and in that time I have

0:20:13.805 --> 0:20:16.925
<v Speaker 3>seen the rise of I'm just going to say, the

0:20:16.965 --> 0:20:21.245
<v Speaker 3>Andrew Tates. Yeah, the eldest not so much, but the

0:20:21.285 --> 0:20:24.485
<v Speaker 3>youngest has been exposed to it and his mates, and

0:20:24.525 --> 0:20:26.765
<v Speaker 3>even though they keep it sort of quiet, you know

0:20:26.845 --> 0:20:31.245
<v Speaker 3>that it's just and they're not subscribers, but it's what's

0:20:31.285 --> 0:20:35.245
<v Speaker 3>in the background for them. The question I always have,

0:20:35.365 --> 0:20:38.045
<v Speaker 3>And when I was discussing it with my husband, I

0:20:38.125 --> 0:20:40.565
<v Speaker 3>said to him. Initially, oh God, I can't wait till

0:20:40.565 --> 0:20:45.045
<v Speaker 3>Andrew Tate falls in love with a woman and becomes humanized.

0:20:46.125 --> 0:20:49.405
<v Speaker 3>But now I think I don't think he can.

0:20:49.965 --> 0:20:51.645
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I just don't know anything about him. I

0:20:51.685 --> 0:20:54.885
<v Speaker 2>have paid no attention to him. To be perfectly honest,

0:20:54.925 --> 0:20:56.485
<v Speaker 2>I don't really speak about him publicly.

0:20:57.045 --> 0:21:00.125
<v Speaker 1>I don't think that's the way to go about shifting men.

0:21:00.565 --> 0:21:03.525
<v Speaker 2>Men ultimately at base level just want to get laid,

0:21:04.325 --> 0:21:06.365
<v Speaker 2>and if you tell them that the way to get

0:21:06.405 --> 0:21:08.085
<v Speaker 2>laid is by being.

0:21:08.165 --> 0:21:11.165
<v Speaker 1>In this sort of way, they're more likely to try out.

0:21:11.245 --> 0:21:13.085
<v Speaker 2>So rather than us spending all of our time and

0:21:13.125 --> 0:21:16.405
<v Speaker 2>attention on trying to bring down and talk about and

0:21:16.445 --> 0:21:18.965
<v Speaker 2>shit on the bad men in this world where we

0:21:19.045 --> 0:21:21.765
<v Speaker 2>only make them more powerful and richer and give them

0:21:21.765 --> 0:21:24.845
<v Speaker 2>more algorithmic attention, and then they make more money on

0:21:24.885 --> 0:21:27.125
<v Speaker 2>their YouTube views, and then they get nicer cars and

0:21:27.205 --> 0:21:31.125
<v Speaker 2>nicer stuff if we just collectively ignore them and start

0:21:31.165 --> 0:21:34.605
<v Speaker 2>like elevating the men who are really great, who are great,

0:21:34.645 --> 0:21:36.845
<v Speaker 2>who are great, and start like, you know, I was

0:21:37.485 --> 0:21:39.525
<v Speaker 2>just talking about this recently on another podcast, like look

0:21:39.525 --> 0:21:42.045
<v Speaker 2>at how the world reacted to Benny Blanco talking about

0:21:42.045 --> 0:21:44.925
<v Speaker 2>Selena Gomez and how wonderful and emotionally intelligence he was,

0:21:45.125 --> 0:21:47.005
<v Speaker 2>and all of these women who previously had said like,

0:21:47.085 --> 0:21:48.525
<v Speaker 2>I don't think he's good looking enough for her, was.

0:21:48.525 --> 0:21:51.165
<v Speaker 1>Suddenly like, I want a man like that. You know,

0:21:51.645 --> 0:21:54.885
<v Speaker 1>my boyfriend as girls you know who seem.

0:21:54.725 --> 0:21:57.565
<v Speaker 2>To be frothing at the mouth at his shows, which

0:21:57.565 --> 0:22:00.485
<v Speaker 2>I'd like to see because he's a sensitive man, singing

0:22:00.525 --> 0:22:03.885
<v Speaker 2>beautiful songs. He's a very man, yeah, James like yeah,

0:22:04.085 --> 0:22:06.485
<v Speaker 2>but he's singing very emotionally intelligent songs, and he gives

0:22:06.525 --> 0:22:08.645
<v Speaker 2>emotionally intelligent interviews.

0:22:08.645 --> 0:22:11.085
<v Speaker 1>And when I see women lusting.

0:22:10.685 --> 0:22:15.405
<v Speaker 2>After him, it reassures me that, yes, that's what women want.

0:22:15.485 --> 0:22:19.045
<v Speaker 2>They want an emotionally available man. Look at Pedro Pascal,

0:22:19.125 --> 0:22:22.725
<v Speaker 2>look at Mark Ruffalo. Look at the men that Timothy Shalomy,

0:22:23.085 --> 0:22:25.885
<v Speaker 2>you know, like none of these men I like, these

0:22:25.965 --> 0:22:31.005
<v Speaker 2>toxic assholes on TikTok. We need to just stop even

0:22:31.365 --> 0:22:35.565
<v Speaker 2>mentioning their names and only bigging up and going nuts

0:22:35.645 --> 0:22:39.645
<v Speaker 2>for good men, kind men, secure men, like we have

0:22:39.725 --> 0:22:42.685
<v Speaker 2>to show men what's sexy rather than just always tell

0:22:42.685 --> 0:22:44.805
<v Speaker 2>them what's not sexy or what's not good or what

0:22:44.845 --> 0:22:47.445
<v Speaker 2>we don't like. Show them what you do, like that's

0:22:47.445 --> 0:22:50.565
<v Speaker 2>how they learn. I don't mean to sound patronizing, but

0:22:50.605 --> 0:22:51.365
<v Speaker 2>that's what I mean.

0:22:52.205 --> 0:22:54.445
<v Speaker 3>No, no, I know exactly what you mean. A girlfriend

0:22:54.485 --> 0:22:59.125
<v Speaker 3>of mine sid recently because we have these anti gene

0:22:59.165 --> 0:23:05.285
<v Speaker 3>did violence ads in Australia and they're so terrible they're laughable.

0:23:05.885 --> 0:23:09.085
<v Speaker 3>We shouldn't be laughable that they're terrible. But a girlfriend

0:23:09.085 --> 0:23:11.045
<v Speaker 3>of mine and said, just in passing, and she's not

0:23:11.125 --> 0:23:13.845
<v Speaker 3>someone who devotes a lot of time or space to

0:23:14.485 --> 0:23:19.165
<v Speaker 3>thinking about stuff like that. You know, she's busy, she goes.

0:23:19.365 --> 0:23:21.965
<v Speaker 3>Why don't they do a series of ads showing men

0:23:22.045 --> 0:23:25.965
<v Speaker 3>doing great things, like young boys helping their mum carrying

0:23:25.965 --> 0:23:30.245
<v Speaker 3>the shopping in from the car or yeah, you know, like.

0:23:30.205 --> 0:23:31.645
<v Speaker 1>That's what it was like in my day.

0:23:31.805 --> 0:23:34.285
<v Speaker 2>You know, I grew up you know, watching like men

0:23:34.445 --> 0:23:37.605
<v Speaker 2>open doors for women and looking after women and being

0:23:37.805 --> 0:23:40.565
<v Speaker 2>you know, st kind and wonderful. Matthew McConaughey was the

0:23:40.685 --> 0:23:42.845
<v Speaker 2>thing that we were going after. And there's been a

0:23:42.925 --> 0:23:45.885
<v Speaker 2>kind of death of yeah, and now there's like a

0:23:45.965 --> 0:23:48.645
<v Speaker 2>death of the rom com you know, it feels timely.

0:23:48.765 --> 0:23:51.725
<v Speaker 2>It's like we don't see men be romantic or kind

0:23:51.845 --> 0:23:54.085
<v Speaker 2>to women, or in love with women like music used

0:23:54.125 --> 0:23:56.965
<v Speaker 2>to be about men being devastated over the loss of

0:23:57.045 --> 0:23:58.445
<v Speaker 2>women or so in love with a woman that he

0:23:58.485 --> 0:24:03.205
<v Speaker 2>was losing his fucking mind. And that's kind of going away.

0:24:03.325 --> 0:24:07.045
<v Speaker 2>Now we're not really seeing that in our art anymore,

0:24:07.125 --> 0:24:09.525
<v Speaker 2>in in our media anymore. And I think that that's

0:24:09.165 --> 0:24:13.245
<v Speaker 2>so sad and so detrimental to our society. There's no

0:24:13.405 --> 0:24:16.845
<v Speaker 2>model for what boys should be. There's just men who

0:24:16.845 --> 0:24:20.165
<v Speaker 2>are looking at who look very successful. Right. Testosterone makes

0:24:20.205 --> 0:24:23.005
<v Speaker 2>men want to go out and conquer and acquire. Right,

0:24:23.045 --> 0:24:25.965
<v Speaker 2>we cannot relate to that same level of urge because

0:24:26.005 --> 0:24:28.565
<v Speaker 2>it's biological. So they're watching these men go out and

0:24:28.605 --> 0:24:31.325
<v Speaker 2>they're technically conquering and acquiring. These men don't seem very

0:24:31.325 --> 0:24:34.685
<v Speaker 2>mentally stable or particularly happy or have very fulfilling lives.

0:24:34.805 --> 0:24:37.085
<v Speaker 1>But they've got all the bits, all the stuff, you.

0:24:36.965 --> 0:24:40.045
<v Speaker 2>Know, the cars, the house, the money, the clothes. And

0:24:40.125 --> 0:24:44.165
<v Speaker 2>so what we need to do is create aspirational viewing

0:24:44.325 --> 0:24:46.805
<v Speaker 2>for men again, for men to see what we want.

0:24:46.965 --> 0:24:48.765
<v Speaker 2>All they're seeing is what we don't want. And I

0:24:48.765 --> 0:24:51.645
<v Speaker 2>think that that's a huge thing is create real role models,

0:24:52.365 --> 0:24:54.645
<v Speaker 2>really start to leverage role models.

0:24:54.685 --> 0:24:55.565
<v Speaker 1>Women can do it.

0:24:59.845 --> 0:25:02.605
<v Speaker 3>That of course, is not all of my conversation with

0:25:02.725 --> 0:25:06.765
<v Speaker 3>Jamila Jamil, And after this shortbreak we talk about all

0:25:06.805 --> 0:25:14.765
<v Speaker 3>the good stuff friendship, don't go anywhere. And if I

0:25:14.765 --> 0:25:16.805
<v Speaker 3>think about what you were just saying before, about how

0:25:16.845 --> 0:25:20.685
<v Speaker 3>you've changed your tone, reflected on your tone and how

0:25:20.725 --> 0:25:24.685
<v Speaker 3>it was actually divisive instead of inclusive or less likely

0:25:24.725 --> 0:25:28.045
<v Speaker 3>to elicit change, Yes, I think a lot of us

0:25:28.085 --> 0:25:30.565
<v Speaker 3>particularly it was a generational thing as well. I think

0:25:30.565 --> 0:25:34.245
<v Speaker 3>where that we were consumed by the rage. We need

0:25:34.245 --> 0:25:38.845
<v Speaker 3>to be cognizant of our own language in that because

0:25:38.845 --> 0:25:40.445
<v Speaker 3>that's how you become love.

0:25:40.565 --> 0:25:43.685
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we can't be like menu trash, meno trash, meno trash.

0:25:43.725 --> 0:25:46.605
<v Speaker 2>We cannot keep going with this ship. There's miss andres

0:25:46.725 --> 0:25:49.245
<v Speaker 2>shit that's going on that I've been against from the

0:25:49.365 --> 0:25:53.125
<v Speaker 2>very start that I don't think I participated in too much,

0:25:53.965 --> 0:25:57.205
<v Speaker 2>because then, of course, why the fuck would teenage boys

0:25:57.805 --> 0:26:00.725
<v Speaker 2>side with us, Why would they think we're a welcoming

0:26:00.805 --> 0:26:02.725
<v Speaker 2>space to go to. All we do is just say

0:26:02.765 --> 0:26:06.245
<v Speaker 2>all they're seeing is us having open season on them.

0:26:06.325 --> 0:26:08.565
<v Speaker 2>They're not really supposed to say anything bad about us.

0:26:08.965 --> 0:26:11.925
<v Speaker 2>They were around for when we were oppressed. So they've

0:26:12.005 --> 0:26:15.685
<v Speaker 2>just seen Taylor Swift and Beyonce dominating, you know, the

0:26:15.805 --> 0:26:19.485
<v Speaker 2>music industry, and you know Angelina Joli or Scarlett Hanson

0:26:19.565 --> 0:26:22.165
<v Speaker 2>or whoever, you know, like the Bella Hadid, like all

0:26:22.205 --> 0:26:25.925
<v Speaker 2>these girls on top, women doing well in business, Karmla Harris,

0:26:25.965 --> 0:26:27.685
<v Speaker 2>maybe didn't win, but you've got very far, and you've

0:26:27.685 --> 0:26:29.845
<v Speaker 2>got female prime ministers now. And so they're just like

0:26:29.885 --> 0:26:33.205
<v Speaker 2>they're looking around thinking, well, I don't have context for

0:26:33.325 --> 0:26:36.085
<v Speaker 2>all of this rage. I'm fifteen and I'm being told

0:26:36.125 --> 0:26:38.885
<v Speaker 2>I'm not shit and I'm trash and that the most

0:26:38.925 --> 0:26:41.445
<v Speaker 2>embarrassing thing a woman can be is attracted to men.

0:26:42.005 --> 0:26:47.685
<v Speaker 2>And so of course this psychopad, you know, who seem

0:26:47.725 --> 0:26:50.325
<v Speaker 2>to have lots of nice money and fun and you know,

0:26:50.445 --> 0:26:52.605
<v Speaker 2>good times. A most cigars are telling me that I'm

0:26:52.645 --> 0:26:55.365
<v Speaker 2>worth something and I'm welcome and I'm safe with him.

0:26:55.565 --> 0:26:57.725
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to go towards him. These boys just kids,

0:26:57.845 --> 0:27:00.205
<v Speaker 2>just want to be safe. They don't feel safe with us.

0:27:00.765 --> 0:27:02.645
<v Speaker 2>If I was a teenage boy, I wouldn't be like, oh,

0:27:02.685 --> 0:27:04.445
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to go find a group of women to

0:27:04.525 --> 0:27:06.285
<v Speaker 2>hang out with. I'd be fucking terrified.

0:27:09.405 --> 0:27:09.965
<v Speaker 1>I mean I would be.

0:27:10.045 --> 0:27:12.245
<v Speaker 2>I would gravitate to He's the one who tells me

0:27:12.365 --> 0:27:14.645
<v Speaker 2>that I'm worth something and that he sees potential in me,

0:27:15.125 --> 0:27:17.845
<v Speaker 2>and that I'm going to be something someday and I'm important,

0:27:17.885 --> 0:27:20.645
<v Speaker 2>that my life is valid. And listen, I know that

0:27:20.725 --> 0:27:22.405
<v Speaker 2>this sounds like a lot of like, you know, woe

0:27:22.525 --> 0:27:25.005
<v Speaker 2>is boys, but woe is boys man Like they're dying

0:27:25.685 --> 0:27:29.245
<v Speaker 2>and they're hurting us, and so to heal them is

0:27:29.325 --> 0:27:33.765
<v Speaker 2>to heal all of us. But but but we've we've

0:27:33.965 --> 0:27:37.165
<v Speaker 2>got to pull them back in on side, and we've

0:27:37.205 --> 0:27:39.485
<v Speaker 2>got to look at whatever. You know, we've got to

0:27:39.645 --> 0:27:43.245
<v Speaker 2>find another way to process our age about the men

0:27:43.365 --> 0:27:46.725
<v Speaker 2>before so that we don't alienate the boys who are

0:27:46.765 --> 0:27:49.085
<v Speaker 2>coming up now because we need them.

0:27:49.165 --> 0:27:50.085
<v Speaker 1>They're our future.

0:27:50.965 --> 0:27:54.445
<v Speaker 3>Yes, And also it's that thing about them having to

0:27:54.525 --> 0:27:58.405
<v Speaker 3>pay the penalty for something that they really have no knowledge.

0:27:58.965 --> 0:28:00.965
<v Speaker 1>No, we saw this with the race conversation.

0:28:01.285 --> 0:28:05.525
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's just like, you know, we we mishandled

0:28:05.565 --> 0:28:07.805
<v Speaker 2>the race conversation, I think on the left, where it's like,

0:28:07.925 --> 0:28:11.285
<v Speaker 2>you know, we wanted people who currently exist with white

0:28:11.325 --> 0:28:14.605
<v Speaker 2>privilege to be you know, aware of the fact that

0:28:14.725 --> 0:28:17.805
<v Speaker 2>they benefit from the current system. But I think some

0:28:17.925 --> 0:28:20.125
<v Speaker 2>people took it too far and wanting to like punish

0:28:20.645 --> 0:28:25.325
<v Speaker 2>people whose ancestors, you know, were part of a much

0:28:25.405 --> 0:28:29.485
<v Speaker 2>more racially inequitable world. You know, it's like calling them

0:28:29.525 --> 0:28:32.605
<v Speaker 2>a virus, saying you know, you're inherently evil if you're

0:28:32.725 --> 0:28:34.965
<v Speaker 2>a white person. And it's like these fucking white kids

0:28:35.085 --> 0:28:37.365
<v Speaker 2>came up just being like, fuck, well, I haven't done

0:28:37.365 --> 0:28:40.005
<v Speaker 2>anything to anyone, and I'm I'm also poor, and I

0:28:40.245 --> 0:28:43.365
<v Speaker 2>don't know why I'm being held responsible for these actions

0:28:43.405 --> 0:28:45.605
<v Speaker 2>of people I never met and didn't know and I

0:28:45.645 --> 0:28:47.925
<v Speaker 2>don't share their politics, but I'm being blamed for it.

0:28:48.405 --> 0:28:50.885
<v Speaker 2>And so then they turned away from us because they

0:28:50.925 --> 0:28:52.485
<v Speaker 2>were like, fuck, I'm not safe with these people. They

0:28:52.525 --> 0:28:54.325
<v Speaker 2>think I'm a virus, they think I'm a disease, they

0:28:54.365 --> 0:28:56.925
<v Speaker 2>think I'm born inherently evil, and they went off. We

0:28:57.045 --> 0:28:58.845
<v Speaker 2>lost those boys. We can see it in all the

0:28:58.885 --> 0:29:02.045
<v Speaker 2>election results around the world. We lost all the people

0:29:02.205 --> 0:29:05.765
<v Speaker 2>that we labeled, and so we need to stop fucking

0:29:05.845 --> 0:29:07.805
<v Speaker 2>labeling each other and remember everyone is a product of

0:29:07.805 --> 0:29:12.685
<v Speaker 2>their fucking environment. We need to remember that ultimately, the

0:29:12.805 --> 0:29:15.245
<v Speaker 2>people who are true evil are at the very top

0:29:15.325 --> 0:29:18.045
<v Speaker 2>of all of these countries. It's corporations and it's some governments.

0:29:18.285 --> 0:29:20.525
<v Speaker 2>And we need to work together so that we all

0:29:20.685 --> 0:29:26.165
<v Speaker 2>have equity. Women, women and men working together in a

0:29:26.245 --> 0:29:29.765
<v Speaker 2>world always benefits the GDP, it benefits society. When we

0:29:29.845 --> 0:29:32.245
<v Speaker 2>take away women's rights, a company slides down its own

0:29:32.285 --> 0:29:33.005
<v Speaker 2>fucking asshole.

0:29:33.885 --> 0:29:37.005
<v Speaker 1>You know, it looks like shit, it.

0:29:37.045 --> 0:29:42.285
<v Speaker 2>Smells, it's bad, but there's no money. Everyone's fucking broke.

0:29:42.365 --> 0:29:46.045
<v Speaker 2>Everyone's miserable. People are killing themselves, children are getting like,

0:29:46.085 --> 0:29:47.165
<v Speaker 2>people are marrying.

0:29:46.965 --> 0:29:48.205
<v Speaker 1>Children off to grown men.

0:29:48.565 --> 0:29:48.605
<v Speaker 3>Like.

0:29:48.685 --> 0:29:50.725
<v Speaker 2>That's what happens to a society that takes away the

0:29:50.805 --> 0:29:53.845
<v Speaker 2>rights of women. They're thriving when women are in power.

0:29:54.085 --> 0:29:54.765
<v Speaker 1>They're fucked.

0:29:54.805 --> 0:29:57.645
<v Speaker 2>When women have are completely empowered, And so we need

0:29:57.725 --> 0:30:00.725
<v Speaker 2>to look at that and go, this isn't working for anyone.

0:30:01.165 --> 0:30:02.565
<v Speaker 1>This doesn't work for anyone.

0:30:03.085 --> 0:30:05.485
<v Speaker 2>For us to take away the liberties and rights and

0:30:05.525 --> 0:30:06.925
<v Speaker 2>the value entirely of women.

0:30:07.525 --> 0:30:10.245
<v Speaker 1>It makes women miserable, but it'll all so ultimately make

0:30:10.325 --> 0:30:11.085
<v Speaker 1>men miserable.

0:30:11.485 --> 0:30:13.445
<v Speaker 2>So we just need to find new ways of framing

0:30:13.525 --> 0:30:16.525
<v Speaker 2>things that actually make it appealing for men. You know, like, hey,

0:30:17.245 --> 0:30:18.965
<v Speaker 2>you don't want women to not be able to work

0:30:19.005 --> 0:30:20.445
<v Speaker 2>and then you have to go and do all the

0:30:20.525 --> 0:30:21.845
<v Speaker 2>work and then get to have no fun.

0:30:21.925 --> 0:30:22.925
<v Speaker 1>That sounds shit for you.

0:30:24.005 --> 0:30:28.085
<v Speaker 2>Let her do half the work. She's got perfectly capable. Also,

0:30:29.325 --> 0:30:33.365
<v Speaker 2>happy wife, happy life totally. And also women are fantastic

0:30:33.605 --> 0:30:35.965
<v Speaker 2>and when you're in a great relationship women one, it'll

0:30:36.005 --> 0:30:38.685
<v Speaker 2>make you better. The reason that single men die sooner

0:30:38.725 --> 0:30:40.405
<v Speaker 2>than married men is because a woman will get your

0:30:40.485 --> 0:30:43.885
<v Speaker 2>ass to the fucking doctor. She will love you and

0:30:44.685 --> 0:30:48.365
<v Speaker 2>cuddle you, and all that affection will settle your hormones

0:30:48.405 --> 0:30:50.645
<v Speaker 2>and be good for your health. Loneliness is now considered

0:30:50.685 --> 0:30:53.405
<v Speaker 2>a bigger killer than drinking or smoking. You know, they

0:30:53.445 --> 0:30:55.405
<v Speaker 2>are not benefiting, and not just by the way, not

0:30:55.525 --> 0:30:57.725
<v Speaker 2>just that. One of the saddest things in our society

0:30:57.805 --> 0:31:00.125
<v Speaker 2>is that we place no emphasis or importance on the

0:31:00.285 --> 0:31:03.365
<v Speaker 2>friendship of men and women. There's no movies about friends

0:31:03.405 --> 0:31:05.805
<v Speaker 2>who are men and women who don't end up shagging

0:31:06.005 --> 0:31:10.045
<v Speaker 2>at the end. There's no literature about great friends. There's

0:31:10.085 --> 0:31:12.645
<v Speaker 2>no great stories on the cover of a magazine about

0:31:12.645 --> 0:31:14.805
<v Speaker 2>a man and a woman who had a great idea

0:31:14.925 --> 0:31:17.565
<v Speaker 2>together and they built a company. It's always two women

0:31:17.925 --> 0:31:18.085
<v Speaker 2>or a.

0:31:18.085 --> 0:31:20.045
<v Speaker 1>Bunch of men. Do you know what I mean? We

0:31:20.165 --> 0:31:22.045
<v Speaker 1>don't ever say anything's important.

0:31:22.125 --> 0:31:24.605
<v Speaker 2>So part of the male insecurity that I think we're seeing,

0:31:24.885 --> 0:31:26.565
<v Speaker 2>And I talked about this in the speech I gave

0:31:26.685 --> 0:31:29.765
<v Speaker 2>in twenty eighteen called Tell Him, which is that they

0:31:29.885 --> 0:31:32.885
<v Speaker 2>think that all they're good for is their seed, because

0:31:32.885 --> 0:31:36.485
<v Speaker 2>there's no importance in this world in media of men

0:31:36.565 --> 0:31:39.205
<v Speaker 2>and women beyond romantic relationships, whereas actually some of my

0:31:39.285 --> 0:31:41.685
<v Speaker 2>most meaningful relationships are with men that have nothing to

0:31:41.765 --> 0:31:44.845
<v Speaker 2>do with sex. We have no romantic chemistry whatsoever. And

0:31:44.885 --> 0:31:47.645
<v Speaker 2>they're my collaborators, they're my best friends, they're my ride

0:31:47.725 --> 0:31:48.205
<v Speaker 2>or dies.

0:31:49.165 --> 0:31:52.085
<v Speaker 1>Hey do you still live in a shaer house? Only

0:31:52.325 --> 0:31:57.125
<v Speaker 1>just stopped. But we're planning a share commune, Oh, which

0:31:57.165 --> 0:32:01.565
<v Speaker 1>is exciting. Yeah yeah, yeah, and visit with the name Jamilville.

0:32:02.125 --> 0:32:05.285
<v Speaker 1>So it's a cult. It is a cult. But that

0:32:05.405 --> 0:32:08.165
<v Speaker 1>was great. This is the call you boys. Yeah, yeah,

0:32:08.165 --> 0:32:10.005
<v Speaker 1>that would be me. That would be obviously, I have

0:32:10.085 --> 0:32:13.085
<v Speaker 1>the hair of a cult leader. You sure do, I do?

0:32:13.525 --> 0:32:18.005
<v Speaker 2>I do. I have the hair, and I have the confident,

0:32:18.125 --> 0:32:20.685
<v Speaker 2>speaking vibe of a cult leader. So come join anytime

0:32:20.725 --> 0:32:21.725
<v Speaker 2>you're invited.

0:32:21.845 --> 0:32:24.285
<v Speaker 3>Cat White, I'm assuming this will be part of the

0:32:24.365 --> 0:32:25.085
<v Speaker 3>silly chat.

0:32:27.965 --> 0:32:32.805
<v Speaker 1>Serious, I'm so so serious right now? Good?

0:32:33.405 --> 0:32:35.445
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, anyway, Look, this is These are some of

0:32:35.485 --> 0:32:36.965
<v Speaker 2>the things that I think is that I think that

0:32:37.645 --> 0:32:39.445
<v Speaker 2>media has something to answer for.

0:32:39.765 --> 0:32:42.365
<v Speaker 1>I think those of us who are older have something

0:32:42.405 --> 0:32:42.925
<v Speaker 1>to answer for.

0:32:43.365 --> 0:32:45.805
<v Speaker 2>I believe, I have hope that we can turn this

0:32:45.885 --> 0:32:48.565
<v Speaker 2>shit around. But if we don't do it now, we

0:32:48.685 --> 0:32:51.725
<v Speaker 2>are going to run out of an opportunity. The opportunity

0:32:51.805 --> 0:32:54.885
<v Speaker 2>is slipping through our fingers. Fascism is rising, Conservatism is rising.

0:32:55.365 --> 0:32:58.685
<v Speaker 2>Social media is extraordinary at dividing us. We have to

0:32:58.725 --> 0:33:02.005
<v Speaker 2>be having these conversations in person with each other. We

0:33:02.165 --> 0:33:05.285
<v Speaker 2>have to bring men and women together as allies and

0:33:05.405 --> 0:33:08.845
<v Speaker 2>recognize that we are all fucked right now and no

0:33:08.965 --> 0:33:11.885
<v Speaker 2>one doing well or happy, and the only way to

0:33:11.965 --> 0:33:14.605
<v Speaker 2>get out of this is with one another. We've all

0:33:14.685 --> 0:33:17.965
<v Speaker 2>got very different skills and we need to work together

0:33:18.445 --> 0:33:23.925
<v Speaker 2>to build a completely, a completely possible utopia. Remember that

0:33:24.005 --> 0:33:26.125
<v Speaker 2>One of the main reasons that women get targeted around

0:33:26.125 --> 0:33:27.685
<v Speaker 2>their looks all the time is not just a week

0:33:27.685 --> 0:33:30.485
<v Speaker 2>and then distract them, but it's also because women eighty

0:33:30.525 --> 0:33:33.845
<v Speaker 2>percent of the market, we're consumers, so so much of

0:33:33.885 --> 0:33:37.725
<v Speaker 2>the toxicity we're ingesting it is really just to make

0:33:37.805 --> 0:33:39.845
<v Speaker 2>us go out and buy stuff, because if we hate ourselves,

0:33:39.885 --> 0:33:41.525
<v Speaker 2>we're more likely to go out and buy things to

0:33:41.605 --> 0:33:44.805
<v Speaker 2>fix ourselves because we've been convinced we're broken. We're living

0:33:44.845 --> 0:33:49.525
<v Speaker 2>in a fucked system, and we have the power now

0:33:51.085 --> 0:33:53.565
<v Speaker 2>to stop it and to fix it. You know, you've

0:33:53.645 --> 0:33:55.725
<v Speaker 2>talked a lot about your mental health in the past.

0:33:55.885 --> 0:34:01.725
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, is it showing actually, but in a stunning way,

0:34:02.445 --> 0:34:03.205
<v Speaker 2>in a.

0:34:03.605 --> 0:34:10.005
<v Speaker 3>In a great ways, as you've found your voice, and

0:34:10.165 --> 0:34:14.925
<v Speaker 3>it's really it's like someone sitting flame to an oxy

0:34:15.085 --> 0:34:15.805
<v Speaker 3>tort if.

0:34:15.685 --> 0:34:19.925
<v Speaker 1>You know what I mean. It's just it's got it's

0:34:20.045 --> 0:34:22.725
<v Speaker 1>just so so strong and beautiful.

0:34:23.485 --> 0:34:28.365
<v Speaker 3>Has the liberation of yourself made a difference to your

0:34:28.485 --> 0:34:32.245
<v Speaker 3>mental health and your recovery and you're navigating that.

0:34:33.125 --> 0:34:36.725
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yes, of course, speaking our minds can only lead

0:34:36.805 --> 0:34:39.805
<v Speaker 2>to freedom. And you know, so many of women's autoimmune

0:34:39.845 --> 0:34:42.925
<v Speaker 2>diseases have now been linked to the fact that we

0:34:43.085 --> 0:34:45.405
<v Speaker 2>repress so much of our emotions. So the less repressed

0:34:45.445 --> 0:34:48.165
<v Speaker 2>I am, the happier and healthier I am, of course,

0:34:48.685 --> 0:34:50.645
<v Speaker 2>and the more authentic I am, and the more authentic

0:34:50.725 --> 0:34:52.365
<v Speaker 2>I am, the more likely I am to meet people

0:34:52.445 --> 0:34:54.965
<v Speaker 2>that I actually really resonate with, and then I become

0:34:55.005 --> 0:34:57.805
<v Speaker 2>close friends with those people, and then that resolves my loneliness.

0:34:58.205 --> 0:35:02.205
<v Speaker 1>And so it's a wonderful domino effect when you.

0:35:02.245 --> 0:35:04.405
<v Speaker 2>Start to become yourself, and when you give yourself permission

0:35:04.485 --> 0:35:06.285
<v Speaker 2>to fuck up and say the wrong thing and rub

0:35:06.325 --> 0:35:08.645
<v Speaker 2>people out the wrong way sometimes and know that you're

0:35:08.685 --> 0:35:10.365
<v Speaker 2>not going to be every cup of tea. The biggest

0:35:10.405 --> 0:35:12.445
<v Speaker 2>lie that women are told is that you are expected

0:35:12.525 --> 0:35:15.605
<v Speaker 2>to or can ever be everyone's cup of tea. It's

0:35:15.765 --> 0:35:18.525
<v Speaker 2>not possible. We are human beings who have different tastes.

0:35:19.005 --> 0:35:20.685
<v Speaker 2>And it's so funny that I grew up my whole

0:35:20.765 --> 0:35:24.125
<v Speaker 2>life really not liking almost anyone, but hoping everyone would

0:35:24.205 --> 0:35:24.405
<v Speaker 2>like me.

0:35:26.285 --> 0:35:30.045
<v Speaker 1>Are ridiculous? Is that it's so true that.

0:35:31.525 --> 0:35:35.125
<v Speaker 3>If you live in the public sphere and you know

0:35:35.325 --> 0:35:39.525
<v Speaker 3>that that one, you know, arrow can do more than

0:35:39.605 --> 0:35:44.125
<v Speaker 3>a thousand bouquets. Yeah, yeah, And why do we crave

0:35:44.405 --> 0:35:47.405
<v Speaker 3>the approval of people who will never approve of us,

0:35:47.685 --> 0:35:49.165
<v Speaker 3>very likely because they've already decided.

0:35:49.205 --> 0:35:51.685
<v Speaker 2>Women are told that that's the most important thing about

0:35:51.685 --> 0:35:53.845
<v Speaker 2>our existence on this earth is just to be palatable

0:35:53.885 --> 0:35:54.325
<v Speaker 2>in every way.

0:35:54.405 --> 0:35:55.645
<v Speaker 1>Don't take up too much space.

0:35:55.885 --> 0:35:59.965
<v Speaker 2>Just smile, be pretty, look skinny, make everyone else's lives

0:36:00.005 --> 0:36:03.645
<v Speaker 2>more comfortable, you know, and then die.

0:36:04.005 --> 0:36:08.085
<v Speaker 1>But don't look old when you do. Well, you know what,

0:36:08.565 --> 0:36:11.445
<v Speaker 1>Jamila jimil Well you do look pretty. Oh that's very kind.

0:36:11.485 --> 0:36:14.765
<v Speaker 1>So do you look you've checked one of those buttes. Well,

0:36:14.845 --> 0:36:15.285
<v Speaker 1>that's good.

0:36:15.365 --> 0:36:17.565
<v Speaker 2>I've been obedient to the patriarchy today.

0:36:18.045 --> 0:36:19.005
<v Speaker 1>There's my hope.

0:36:19.045 --> 0:36:19.445
<v Speaker 2>I get my.

0:36:21.045 --> 0:36:21.445
<v Speaker 1>Cookie.

0:36:23.485 --> 0:36:25.445
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, I think I've just set myself free and

0:36:25.485 --> 0:36:28.325
<v Speaker 2>I've just learned gross self acceptance. And I'm sure part

0:36:28.365 --> 0:36:29.765
<v Speaker 2>of that is the fact that I'm you know, I'm

0:36:29.845 --> 0:36:34.325
<v Speaker 2>fourteen in like ten months, and the greatest gift of

0:36:34.445 --> 0:36:36.965
<v Speaker 2>getting older is realizing that, oh, it's all a scam.

0:36:37.245 --> 0:36:40.085
<v Speaker 2>Everything's a scam. Every beauty standard you were ever given

0:36:40.205 --> 0:36:43.045
<v Speaker 2>was a scam. It was part of an ever changing

0:36:43.125 --> 0:36:45.485
<v Speaker 2>loop that's just going to come back around again. It'll

0:36:45.525 --> 0:36:47.485
<v Speaker 2>be fat and thin, and fat and thin, then fat

0:36:47.525 --> 0:36:49.445
<v Speaker 2>and thin old than young, and you know, like, oh,

0:36:49.925 --> 0:36:52.045
<v Speaker 2>it's all become so exhausting and so silly to me.

0:36:52.485 --> 0:36:53.965
<v Speaker 1>And so I love being older.

0:36:54.125 --> 0:36:56.445
<v Speaker 2>I love every year I get further away from my

0:36:56.605 --> 0:36:59.125
<v Speaker 2>fucking twenties, so I can really actually.

0:36:59.005 --> 0:37:01.885
<v Speaker 1>Enjoy all of this and see that. Oh what was

0:37:01.925 --> 0:37:03.365
<v Speaker 1>I worried about all those years?

0:37:03.445 --> 0:37:05.845
<v Speaker 2>Why was I trying to placate myself and mold myself

0:37:05.925 --> 0:37:10.645
<v Speaker 2>and shape myself and drain myself for a few and

0:37:10.805 --> 0:37:13.365
<v Speaker 2>secure men when actually the world is full of lots

0:37:13.405 --> 0:37:14.605
<v Speaker 2>of men who don't.

0:37:14.445 --> 0:37:19.965
<v Speaker 3>Care about any of this shit. Jamila Jamil, cannot wait

0:37:20.085 --> 0:37:23.525
<v Speaker 3>for this and more. Thank you when we see you

0:37:23.685 --> 0:37:24.565
<v Speaker 3>on our shores.

0:37:24.805 --> 0:37:27.725
<v Speaker 2>Oh, I can't get that fast enough, honestly, thanks for

0:37:27.845 --> 0:37:30.085
<v Speaker 2>joining us on No Filter. I had such a great time.

0:37:30.285 --> 0:37:33.405
<v Speaker 2>Thank you, and thanks for showing yourself pleasure. It sounds

0:37:33.405 --> 0:37:35.005
<v Speaker 2>like I've got my tits out on the podcast.

0:37:35.445 --> 0:37:42.565
<v Speaker 1>Hello. What a titan she is.

0:37:43.565 --> 0:37:48.205
<v Speaker 3>What a great mixture of humor and strength and savvy

0:37:48.285 --> 0:37:51.885
<v Speaker 3>and assiness. I'm talking about Jamila Jamil, by the way,

0:37:52.805 --> 0:37:55.445
<v Speaker 3>and lucky for us, she will be in Australia next

0:37:55.525 --> 0:37:58.085
<v Speaker 3>week touring the country. So if you want to go

0:37:58.405 --> 0:38:02.245
<v Speaker 3>and see her in the glorious flesh, there's a link

0:38:02.325 --> 0:38:03.445
<v Speaker 3>to where you can get tickets.

0:38:03.485 --> 0:38:06.365
<v Speaker 1>In the show notes, the executive.

0:38:05.925 --> 0:38:10.125
<v Speaker 3>Producer of No Filter is Naima Brown, Senior producer Grace Rouvre.

0:38:10.765 --> 0:38:14.685
<v Speaker 3>Sound design is by Jacob Brown and I am your host,

0:38:15.045 --> 0:38:17.725
<v Speaker 3>Kate lane Brook. Back with you next week.