Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mama Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges
Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast
Speaker 1: is recorded on.
Speaker 2: We can't be like men, a trash man, A trash man,
Speaker 2: a trash We cannot keep going with this ship. There's
Speaker 2: Miss Andrews shit that's going on that I've been against
Speaker 2: from the very start that I don't think I participated
Speaker 2: in too much, because then, of course, why the fuck
Speaker 2: could teenage boys side with us?
Speaker 1: Why would they think we're a welcoming space to go to?
Speaker 3: Jamila Jamil has never been to Australia, but she feels
Speaker 3: like one of us. She loves to swear, carries a
Speaker 3: nonchalant charm, and has a self assuredness that's genuinely refreshing
Speaker 3: to be around. You might know Jamila as Tahani from
Speaker 3: The Good Place, a role she landed without any formal
Speaker 3: acting training, but in recent years she's become just as
Speaker 3: well known for her activism, speaking out powerfully on issues
Speaker 3: like body image, mental health, and gender equality. Given her
Speaker 3: outspoken advocacy and what she describes as biting the hand
Speaker 3: that feeds her, it's no surprise that Jamila and I
Speaker 3: dove straight into the deep stuff. We talked body image,
Speaker 3: the chaos of the online world, and her call to
Speaker 3: rebrand toxic masculinity. When I asked about Andrew Tate, she
Speaker 3: didn't miss a beat. Why give men like him airtime
Speaker 3: when we should be championing the good ones instead?
Speaker 1: We also talked.
Speaker 3: About friendship and its role in our mental health, the
Speaker 3: importance of lifting each other up, and something I really loved,
Speaker 3: Jamilla's appreciation for aging. She's counting down to her fortieth
Speaker 3: birthday just ten months away and says she couldn't be
Speaker 3: happier to put her twenties behind her. A conversation with
Speaker 3: Jamila Jamil feels like an off the cuff ted talk,
Speaker 3: smart and funny and passionate and completely and filtered.
Speaker 1: Here's Jamila Jamale. Hello, how welcome to No Filter. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm great. You've come from a busy life.
Speaker 3: What was the nature of the whirl wind that blew
Speaker 3: you into us today on No Filter? Oh?
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm recording a new podcast that comes out
Speaker 2: on May seventh, which is called Wrong Turns, and it's
Speaker 2: all about I'm just fucking sick of this inspirational, you know,
Speaker 2: just poorn life that we're in where everything has to
Speaker 2: have some sort of fucking silver lining. So I decided
Speaker 2: to make a podcast about all the dumber shit we
Speaker 2: ever did that There was no great pearl of wisdom
Speaker 2: from there was no silver lining.
Speaker 1: Sometimes we actually get dumber, you know, from that decision.
Speaker 2: And so it's it's all of our bad decisions and
Speaker 2: mishaps that are just kind of anti inspiration pro commiseration.
Speaker 2: So I'm currently recording that before I come over to
Speaker 2: Australia to be with you, which is really exciting. And
Speaker 2: then I'm just writing a lot, writing substat writing books,
Speaker 2: and I've got a Pixel movie coming out in June
Speaker 2: that's Oh.
Speaker 1: Really, are you an animation? I am. I'm a bloody animation.
Speaker 1: I'm a big orange squid thing. But I hope with
Speaker 1: shiny hair.
Speaker 2: Oh I don't think. I don't think i'll have hair,
Speaker 2: But I am shiny. I'm definitely shiny. I'm shiny, I'm sparkly,
Speaker 2: I'm some sort of like obscene ambassador.
Speaker 1: It's all going to be very extra Yeah.
Speaker 3: Good, Well, this is what I expect from you, and
Speaker 3: in fact, I think the world is coming to expect
Speaker 3: that from you.
Speaker 2: Oh God, it depends whether they read the daily mail
Speaker 2: or not.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Well, here's the thing about you. Now, this is a
Speaker 3: lot of people know you from the good place, right.
Speaker 3: And when I first saw you, and it was in
Speaker 3: a part in her life when we were I have
Speaker 3: four children.
Speaker 1: We were living in Italy for a couple of years.
Speaker 3: Madness, but so we weren't exposed to a lot of
Speaker 3: that ancillary media that you see when you're in your
Speaker 3: native country.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I didn't.
Speaker 3: Know you from some of the Yes, yeah I didn't know.
Speaker 3: I saw you on that And this is what I
Speaker 3: thought about you, like enough to do a deep dive
Speaker 3: on you. You know how sometimes people just capture you.
Speaker 3: You've captured a lot of people. I thought that you
Speaker 3: were posh, right, I thought you were posh, and I
Speaker 3: thought you had a posh must have had a posh background.
Speaker 3: And so to have learnt about your upbringing and the
Speaker 3: pain that you experienced as a child, that has led
Speaker 3: you to somehow essue the privileges and all the beautiful things.
Speaker 1: That you say.
Speaker 2: Is that has led me to annihilating my own career
Speaker 2: by every time it feeds me, because I feel very
Speaker 2: passionately about people.
Speaker 1: Who don't have a lot.
Speaker 3: But yeah, yes, well it's an extraordinary thing because we
Speaker 3: do know, those of us who work in any platform
Speaker 3: really where you can you can make choices to pursue
Speaker 3: certain goals, and they might be you could have been
Speaker 3: a material girl.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I could have.
Speaker 2: There are days where I think maybe I should have.
Speaker 2: But generally I sleep better at night if at all,
Speaker 2: knowing that I've taken the path I have because I
Speaker 2: you know, my inner twelve year old follows me everywhere
Speaker 2: and she's such a judgmental little bitch that I just
Speaker 2: wouldn't be able to get anything past her.
Speaker 1: I have. I have to.
Speaker 2: Do what I do otherwise she'll, you know, she'll give
Speaker 2: me the stinkye and I can't bear it.
Speaker 1: So everything I do is for her. And a child
Speaker 1: stinkite is the worst.
Speaker 2: The worst, because they really, like, you know, they're hard
Speaker 2: to that.
Speaker 1: Kids really get it. They can really see you.
Speaker 2: That's why there's nothing worse than when you pick up
Speaker 2: a baby and it cries.
Speaker 1: You're like, fuck, you can see.
Speaker 2: I've got no soul shit, Or when a dog barks
Speaker 2: at you.
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, it's embarrassing, you like feel as so.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and much rather an adult hates me than a baby.
Speaker 3: Well, speaking of hating you, Yeah, but you are coming
Speaker 3: to Australia, Yes.
Speaker 1: You're You're here next week, which is a rare trait.
Speaker 1: Have you been here before? I've never been. I've always
Speaker 1: wanted to go.
Speaker 2: Oh really Yeah. I watched a movie called The Castle
Speaker 2: when I was a child, and I became obsessed with
Speaker 2: Australian culture after that. And then obviously it's like Muriel's
Speaker 2: Wedding I think had come out just before then, which
Speaker 2: I then started watching religiously and then consuming it.
Speaker 1: Katherine Kim Yeah, yeah, I think him.
Speaker 2: And so like I've always like, you know, all the
Speaker 2: stuff that I watch on like on social media is
Speaker 2: all like Australian comedy that I've just been. I've had
Speaker 2: a long running obsession with Australia and never managed to
Speaker 2: get out there because it's such a long flight and
Speaker 2: also I just didn't know if anyone would want to
Speaker 2: see me out there. But then when I was invited
Speaker 2: to come speak.
Speaker 1: I was like one hundred percent yes, get me there now.
Speaker 3: Well, so, because you do have an Australian ness to
Speaker 3: your energy, which is you're a massive swear, massive swear.
Speaker 3: But there's a forthrightness to you. Yeah, and so when
Speaker 3: you come out here and it's described as a as
Speaker 3: a night of candid conversation and so hard chat and
Speaker 3: silly discussion, the hard chat, I know you can go hard.
Speaker 3: What will be the hard chat? Can I guess some
Speaker 3: of it? I mean, I'm sure you can body stuff?
Speaker 1: Yeah, men.
Speaker 3: Yeah, toxic masculinity, which which is I don't know what
Speaker 3: term exists anymore, Like it's not masculinity, whatever the fuck
Speaker 3: that is is not masculinity.
Speaker 2: I know what musculinity is. I love musculinity. Not only
Speaker 2: do I have musculinity within myself, but my boyfriend is
Speaker 2: a very masculine man. Whatever I'm seeing in that other
Speaker 2: ship has got to have a new name.
Speaker 3: Okay, So but yeah, sorry, it'll be a well no,
Speaker 3: I was going to say in your your great since
Speaker 3: renamed podcast, Iwagh, that was always very interesting. You had
Speaker 3: a conversation with James Baldoni in which Jason and it
Speaker 3: was justin Baldoni Sorry, I'm trying to invoke your boyfriend
Speaker 3: as well, where he said he didn't like the term
Speaker 3: toxic masculinity, which was the first.
Speaker 1: Time really that I had thought about that.
Speaker 3: Through that prism since then, because that was a couple
Speaker 3: of years ago, things have escalated, Yeah, fast, What is it?
Speaker 1: Do you think it's a couple off and things?
Speaker 2: It's you know, I think part of it is the
Speaker 2: fact that the Internet means that everything moves so fast
Speaker 2: and snowballs. But I think ultimately it's the male loneliness epidemic.
Speaker 2: And rather than them looking up the fact that the
Speaker 2: patriarchy destroys men's lives, they look at us as the problem.
Speaker 2: They see that women are getting ahead. We know, we're
Speaker 2: doing better at school. We learn to read and write
Speaker 2: faster than boys, and we generally tend to excel at
Speaker 2: secondary school. We are buying houses faster than boys. We
Speaker 2: are securing ourselves financially. The vibrators have become brilliant, and
Speaker 2: women friendships are stronger than they've ever been, you know,
Speaker 2: post media movement, women have become less divisive towards one another,
Speaker 2: and we've started to really pair up and find that
Speaker 2: got a lot of what I need from a relationship,
Speaker 2: what're mctually getting from my mates? And so really now
Speaker 2: our standard has become very high of that I don't
Speaker 2: need you, I want to want someone. You know, I
Speaker 2: was just talking about this recently on another podcast, that
Speaker 2: I don't need my boyfriend.
Speaker 1: I make as much money as him.
Speaker 2: I can afford my house on my own, I have
Speaker 2: a great circle of friends.
Speaker 1: He's in my life because I want him, not because
Speaker 1: I need him.
Speaker 2: And and I think that men have no tools as
Speaker 2: to rise to the occasion to be the emotionally intelligent
Speaker 2: partners in crime that we need.
Speaker 1: So it's easier just to drag us down.
Speaker 2: It's easier to drag us back down to where we
Speaker 2: were before rather than level up to where women are now.
Speaker 1: And we see that all the time. We've seen that
Speaker 1: throughout history.
Speaker 2: Anytime women start to excel, rather than men going fuck,
Speaker 2: they're kind of keep catching up with us, or they're
Speaker 2: getting ahead. We need to step up our game, they
Speaker 2: just go, okay, let's just rip them back down, take
Speaker 2: away their rights, distract them, make them feel ugly, make
Speaker 2: them feel old, scare the shit out of them, and
Speaker 2: then they'll feel like they need us again. And that
Speaker 2: to me is just very sad because then men miss
Speaker 2: out on evolding.
Speaker 3: Well, that's the theories, you know, it's a if you
Speaker 3: play a part in your own demise, that's kind of
Speaker 3: what's happening with a lot of men because of the isolation,
Speaker 3: the alienation from women, They denied the gifts that women
Speaker 3: bring to life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but also they're not taught even how to talk
Speaker 1: to each other.
Speaker 2: The amount of times I'll fucking i'll know so much
Speaker 2: more about my male friends than my male friends know
Speaker 2: about each other. And they've known each other for longer.
Speaker 2: I'll know one of them is going through a divorce,
Speaker 2: or one of them suicidal, or one of them struggling
Speaker 2: with anxiety or a rectile fucking dysfunction, and they may
Speaker 2: have no idea about any of this. They don't talk
Speaker 2: to each other. Like how many times have you heard
Speaker 2: a like a middle let Like you heard your dad
Speaker 2: come home from seeing another dad who's going through a
Speaker 2: divorce and asked him how he's doing? Is like, oh,
Speaker 2: I never came up. It's just they don't talk to
Speaker 2: each other, you know. Katlain Moran wrote this fucking brilliant
Speaker 2: book called What About Boys, and she talks about the
Speaker 2: fact that men don't even plan for their third act.
Speaker 2: Women are continuously planning for their third act. We're gathering
Speaker 2: our friendship, strengthening the ones that we want to really
Speaker 2: grow old with. You know, we're plotting our lives for
Speaker 2: when the children grow up and leave the home. Men don't.
Speaker 2: Men just start to atrophy once they get married and
Speaker 2: they stop keeping up with their friendships as much, and
Speaker 2: then they kind of settle on the idea that well,
Speaker 2: I guess I'll just become friends with whoever the husband
Speaker 2: is of my wife's friends, and she'll organize our social calendar.
Speaker 2: And that's fucking devastating for them. They're not taught to
Speaker 2: build out their emotional skill sets, and it's hurting them
Speaker 2: because look at how fast they're killing themselves. You know,
Speaker 2: America's got all this gun death. Sixty percent of that
Speaker 2: gun death is men turning the gun on themselves. There's
Speaker 2: a reason more men kill themselves than women, and it's
Speaker 2: because women have each other. Men don't have each other,
Speaker 2: and they don't really have us.
Speaker 3: Coming up after this short break, Jamila, she is the
Speaker 3: mean we should be talking about. I mean, when I
Speaker 3: say she shares them, we discuss them anyway.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back.
Speaker 3: So when we're like having this discussion, Yeah, how do
Speaker 3: we have the discussion without other ring meen from that process?
Speaker 1: Is it up to us?
Speaker 3: Is it up to women, which is such a mind
Speaker 3: boggle to try and draw men in.
Speaker 1: I think you're not gonna like answer, well, I know,
Speaker 1: I I tell me, I think it is. I think
Speaker 1: it is.
Speaker 2: I think we You know, men are on the fucking
Speaker 2: front lines, literally with their bodies. And maybe there aren't
Speaker 2: that many wars in all of our countries, right, but
Speaker 2: whenever there is any kind of shit that goes down,
Speaker 2: it's men who were sent. To the point where when
Speaker 2: we talk about who dies at war, we talk about
Speaker 2: women and children. We never talk about how many men
Speaker 2: died at war. We're like, and women and children were killed.
Speaker 2: They're seen as completely fucking disposable, and they have built
Speaker 2: these worlds for us. They have built much of this world,
Speaker 2: and that has not necessarily been our choice. We would
Speaker 2: have happily it was three hundred and fifty women who
Speaker 2: built the Waterloo Bridge. Women are perfectly capable and could
Speaker 2: have definitely participated in that. We're held back. But the
Speaker 2: point is is that men put their bodies on the line.
Speaker 2: That's where they are superior to ours is in their physicality.
Speaker 2: Our superiority comes in our emotional intelligence. So therefore, let's
Speaker 2: bring that to the table. Our bodies will never be
Speaker 2: frontline on a war. Our bodies will never be used
Speaker 2: for physical labor or down the minds and the same
Speaker 2: numbers that men's are. So let us step up and
Speaker 2: use the thing that we're fucking brilliant at, which is
Speaker 2: showing people how to communicate with each other, how to build.
Speaker 2: You know that women are so intelligent and powerful. We
Speaker 2: have all these gifts, and by just keeping them amongst
Speaker 2: ourselves and hoarding them and not going out there and
Speaker 2: reaching out to and across two men, we're suffering because
Speaker 2: then the more crazy they become, the more they hurt us.
Speaker 2: So it's in our best interest to use this superpower
Speaker 2: we have and share it and share the tools of
Speaker 2: it with them.
Speaker 3: That's my opinion. And some people really don't like that.
Speaker 3: I can imagine that people don't like it. But also
Speaker 3: be any discussion about this is so people are so
Speaker 3: binary in their opinions now, which is not working.
Speaker 2: No, But also, like listen, we're just so fucking emotional
Speaker 2: about everything, and I don't think we ever step back
Speaker 2: and are encouraged to be logical or to have critical thinking.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: Logically, of course, if you have but the superiority in
Speaker 2: a skill, you should go and teach the others if
Speaker 2: you want the whole land to be.
Speaker 1: Able to do that skill.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: But I understand why women.
Speaker 2: I have been one of those women, those loud, angry
Speaker 2: feminist women who just thinks, well, fuck off, why should
Speaker 2: we have to do this work for you? Figure out?
Speaker 2: They literally can't. And instead of figuring out, because they're
Speaker 2: so bad at this, they're just stripping our rights and
Speaker 2: taking us back to the nineteen twenties. That's what's happening.
Speaker 2: They have no idea, they don't have the manual of
Speaker 2: how to rise up to our level. So we've got
Speaker 2: to show them for our sake.
Speaker 1: Yes, for everybody's sake.
Speaker 3: But you know how you say you have changed in
Speaker 3: your approach, you know your thoughts about this. What is
Speaker 3: the process that led you to the change?
Speaker 2: I think it was watching the way that everyone spoke
Speaker 2: to each other during COVID. You know, everyone split off
Speaker 2: into kind of two camps. And I was so dehumanizing
Speaker 2: and hideous to each other so fast, and like mates
Speaker 2: who've been friends for years, we're not talking to each.
Speaker 1: Other anymore, and the language became so violent.
Speaker 2: I was looking at the way that people felt comfortable
Speaker 2: to speak to each other everywhere. And I thought, oh,
Speaker 2: I've got a little footprint in this, because I rose
Speaker 2: to prominence as someone who's a you know, brash straight talker,
Speaker 2: very like, fuck you and you can fuck off, and
Speaker 2: you're an in cell and you're a twat, and you know,
Speaker 2: just like I was very finger pointing, very rude, very judgmental,
Speaker 2: very alienating. And I was congratulated for that. I was
Speaker 2: rewarded for it. I was decorated for it. I was called,
Speaker 2: you know, Harper's magazine called me.
Speaker 1: Like the feminist hero we need.
Speaker 2: I was named as one of Time magazines twenty five
Speaker 2: most influential women. I was put on the cover of
Speaker 2: like five different vogues. I couldn't there couldn't have been
Speaker 2: more of a message out there that behaving like me
Speaker 2: is the right thing to do, and this will get
Speaker 2: you ahead, and this is the right way to communicate
Speaker 2: your feelings and your activism and your passion. So by
Speaker 2: my being so decorated for what is objectively actually not
Speaker 2: very helpful behavior, I helped.
Speaker 1: I helped.
Speaker 2: I don't think I was responsible for it. I think
Speaker 2: Piers Morgan's got his own bigger footprint. But I helped
Speaker 2: contribute to a world that speaks to each other in
Speaker 2: a dehumanizing, impatient, and unempathetic way. And when I recognized
Speaker 2: my contribution to that culture, I was like, right, I'm
Speaker 2: going to fucking do something about this now. And so
Speaker 2: I spent the last four years trying to atone for
Speaker 2: it with a full mea culpa and trying to encourage
Speaker 2: people to actually move forward with logic and empathy.
Speaker 3: And so because also your mastery of a pithy phrase
Speaker 3: is you mean what.
Speaker 1: I call Lawrence Fox are freshly wranked col Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: I yes, I do not my finest hour, but you know.
Speaker 3: No, there's something to be our very t shirt worthy.
Speaker 1: But what was the moment?
Speaker 3: Because for us to make progress now requires a shift
Speaker 3: in thinking, yes, and it requires us to instead look externally,
Speaker 3: because as you sort of alluded to, it's very easy
Speaker 3: in this world to.
Speaker 1: Go will you do this? And we need to look internally,
Speaker 1: not externally. All we've been doing is looking externally. What
Speaker 1: we need to be doing is going right. Why how
Speaker 1: do I learn best?
Speaker 2: Do I learn best when I'm being shamed, labeled, screamed at,
Speaker 2: or spoken down to or do I learn best when
Speaker 2: someone's being a little bit patient with me but firm
Speaker 2: and giving me the fact yes, and giving me a
Speaker 2: bit of the benefit of the doubt and giving me
Speaker 2: time to adjust. Obviously we all learn better with the latter.
Speaker 2: So how the fuck did we think the way that
Speaker 2: we were going about things was going to work for
Speaker 2: anyone else when that's not how any of us learn
Speaker 2: No one learns well under duress. And because we were
Speaker 2: so angry, rightfully so, and we will be angry again
Speaker 2: when the shit's over, when the pendulum swings back, which
Speaker 2: it inevitably will, we have got to do a better
Speaker 2: job at taking a breath and thinking, how am I
Speaker 2: most like? My main objective is not to communicate how
Speaker 2: angry I am or get revenge. My main objective is change.
Speaker 2: How do I most effectively get change? And that's by
Speaker 2: speaking to someone in a way that they're actually going
Speaker 2: to hear you, they're actually.
Speaker 1: Going to learn, and they're more likely going to emphathize
Speaker 1: with you.
Speaker 3: Interesting because I have four children, three of them are boys,
Speaker 3: double well done, very like a fascinating a living experiment,
Speaker 3: if you will, And the eldest is twenty one now
Speaker 3: the youngest is fifteen, and in that time I have
Speaker 3: seen the rise of I'm just going to say, the
Speaker 3: Andrew Tates. Yeah, the eldest not so much, but the
Speaker 3: youngest has been exposed to it and his mates, and
Speaker 3: even though they keep it sort of quiet, you know
Speaker 3: that it's just and they're not subscribers, but it's what's
Speaker 3: in the background for them. The question I always have,
Speaker 3: And when I was discussing it with my husband, I
Speaker 3: said to him. Initially, oh God, I can't wait till
Speaker 3: Andrew Tate falls in love with a woman and becomes humanized.
Speaker 3: But now I think I don't think he can.
Speaker 2: I mean, I just don't know anything about him. I
Speaker 2: have paid no attention to him. To be perfectly honest,
Speaker 2: I don't really speak about him publicly.
Speaker 1: I don't think that's the way to go about shifting men.
Speaker 2: Men ultimately at base level just want to get laid,
Speaker 2: and if you tell them that the way to get
Speaker 2: laid is by being.
Speaker 1: In this sort of way, they're more likely to try out.
Speaker 2: So rather than us spending all of our time and
Speaker 2: attention on trying to bring down and talk about and
Speaker 2: shit on the bad men in this world where we
Speaker 2: only make them more powerful and richer and give them
Speaker 2: more algorithmic attention, and then they make more money on
Speaker 2: their YouTube views, and then they get nicer cars and
Speaker 2: nicer stuff if we just collectively ignore them and start
Speaker 2: like elevating the men who are really great, who are great,
Speaker 2: who are great, and start like, you know, I was
Speaker 2: just talking about this recently on another podcast, like look
Speaker 2: at how the world reacted to Benny Blanco talking about
Speaker 2: Selena Gomez and how wonderful and emotionally intelligence he was,
Speaker 2: and all of these women who previously had said like,
Speaker 2: I don't think he's good looking enough for her, was.
Speaker 1: Suddenly like, I want a man like that. You know,
Speaker 1: my boyfriend as girls you know who seem.
Speaker 2: To be frothing at the mouth at his shows, which
Speaker 2: I'd like to see because he's a sensitive man, singing
Speaker 2: beautiful songs. He's a very man, yeah, James like yeah,
Speaker 2: but he's singing very emotionally intelligent songs, and he gives
Speaker 2: emotionally intelligent interviews.
Speaker 1: And when I see women lusting.
Speaker 2: After him, it reassures me that, yes, that's what women want.
Speaker 2: They want an emotionally available man. Look at Pedro Pascal,
Speaker 2: look at Mark Ruffalo. Look at the men that Timothy Shalomy,
Speaker 2: you know, like none of these men I like, these
Speaker 2: toxic assholes on TikTok. We need to just stop even
Speaker 2: mentioning their names and only bigging up and going nuts
Speaker 2: for good men, kind men, secure men, like we have
Speaker 2: to show men what's sexy rather than just always tell
Speaker 2: them what's not sexy or what's not good or what
Speaker 2: we don't like. Show them what you do, like that's
Speaker 2: how they learn. I don't mean to sound patronizing, but
Speaker 2: that's what I mean.
Speaker 3: No, no, I know exactly what you mean. A girlfriend
Speaker 3: of mine sid recently because we have these anti gene
Speaker 3: did violence ads in Australia and they're so terrible they're laughable.
Speaker 3: We shouldn't be laughable that they're terrible. But a girlfriend
Speaker 3: of mine and said, just in passing, and she's not
Speaker 3: someone who devotes a lot of time or space to
Speaker 3: thinking about stuff like that. You know, she's busy, she goes.
Speaker 3: Why don't they do a series of ads showing men
Speaker 3: doing great things, like young boys helping their mum carrying
Speaker 3: the shopping in from the car or yeah, you know, like.
Speaker 1: That's what it was like in my day.
Speaker 2: You know, I grew up you know, watching like men
Speaker 2: open doors for women and looking after women and being
Speaker 2: you know, st kind and wonderful. Matthew McConaughey was the
Speaker 2: thing that we were going after. And there's been a
Speaker 2: kind of death of yeah, and now there's like a
Speaker 2: death of the rom com you know, it feels timely.
Speaker 2: It's like we don't see men be romantic or kind
Speaker 2: to women, or in love with women like music used
Speaker 2: to be about men being devastated over the loss of
Speaker 2: women or so in love with a woman that he
Speaker 2: was losing his fucking mind. And that's kind of going away.
Speaker 2: Now we're not really seeing that in our art anymore,
Speaker 2: in in our media anymore. And I think that that's
Speaker 2: so sad and so detrimental to our society. There's no
Speaker 2: model for what boys should be. There's just men who
Speaker 2: are looking at who look very successful. Right. Testosterone makes
Speaker 2: men want to go out and conquer and acquire. Right,
Speaker 2: we cannot relate to that same level of urge because
Speaker 2: it's biological. So they're watching these men go out and
Speaker 2: they're technically conquering and acquiring. These men don't seem very
Speaker 2: mentally stable or particularly happy or have very fulfilling lives.
Speaker 1: But they've got all the bits, all the stuff, you.
Speaker 2: Know, the cars, the house, the money, the clothes. And
Speaker 2: so what we need to do is create aspirational viewing
Speaker 2: for men again, for men to see what we want.
Speaker 2: All they're seeing is what we don't want. And I
Speaker 2: think that that's a huge thing is create real role models,
Speaker 2: really start to leverage role models.
Speaker 1: Women can do it.
Speaker 3: That of course, is not all of my conversation with
Speaker 3: Jamila Jamil, And after this shortbreak we talk about all
Speaker 3: the good stuff friendship, don't go anywhere. And if I
Speaker 3: think about what you were just saying before, about how
Speaker 3: you've changed your tone, reflected on your tone and how
Speaker 3: it was actually divisive instead of inclusive or less likely
Speaker 3: to elicit change, Yes, I think a lot of us
Speaker 3: particularly it was a generational thing as well. I think
Speaker 3: where that we were consumed by the rage. We need
Speaker 3: to be cognizant of our own language in that because
Speaker 3: that's how you become love.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we can't be like menu trash, meno trash, meno trash.
Speaker 2: We cannot keep going with this ship. There's miss andres
Speaker 2: shit that's going on that I've been against from the
Speaker 2: very start that I don't think I participated in too much,
Speaker 2: because then, of course, why the fuck would teenage boys
Speaker 2: side with us, Why would they think we're a welcoming
Speaker 2: space to go to. All we do is just say
Speaker 2: all they're seeing is us having open season on them.
Speaker 2: They're not really supposed to say anything bad about us.
Speaker 2: They were around for when we were oppressed. So they've
Speaker 2: just seen Taylor Swift and Beyonce dominating, you know, the
Speaker 2: music industry, and you know Angelina Joli or Scarlett Hanson
Speaker 2: or whoever, you know, like the Bella Hadid, like all
Speaker 2: these girls on top, women doing well in business, Karmla Harris,
Speaker 2: maybe didn't win, but you've got very far, and you've
Speaker 2: got female prime ministers now. And so they're just like
Speaker 2: they're looking around thinking, well, I don't have context for
Speaker 2: all of this rage. I'm fifteen and I'm being told
Speaker 2: I'm not shit and I'm trash and that the most
Speaker 2: embarrassing thing a woman can be is attracted to men.
Speaker 2: And so of course this psychopad, you know, who seem
Speaker 2: to have lots of nice money and fun and you know,
Speaker 2: good times. A most cigars are telling me that I'm
Speaker 2: worth something and I'm welcome and I'm safe with him.
Speaker 2: I'm going to go towards him. These boys just kids,
Speaker 2: just want to be safe. They don't feel safe with us.
Speaker 2: If I was a teenage boy, I wouldn't be like, oh,
Speaker 2: I'm going to go find a group of women to
Speaker 2: hang out with. I'd be fucking terrified.
Speaker 1: I mean I would be.
Speaker 2: I would gravitate to He's the one who tells me
Speaker 2: that I'm worth something and that he sees potential in me,
Speaker 2: and that I'm going to be something someday and I'm important,
Speaker 2: that my life is valid. And listen, I know that
Speaker 2: this sounds like a lot of like, you know, woe
Speaker 2: is boys, but woe is boys man Like they're dying
Speaker 2: and they're hurting us, and so to heal them is
Speaker 2: to heal all of us. But but but we've we've
Speaker 2: got to pull them back in on side, and we've
Speaker 2: got to look at whatever. You know, we've got to
Speaker 2: find another way to process our age about the men
Speaker 2: before so that we don't alienate the boys who are
Speaker 2: coming up now because we need them.
Speaker 1: They're our future.
Speaker 3: Yes, And also it's that thing about them having to
Speaker 3: pay the penalty for something that they really have no knowledge.
Speaker 1: No, we saw this with the race conversation.
Speaker 2: You know, it's just like, you know, we we mishandled
Speaker 2: the race conversation, I think on the left, where it's like,
Speaker 2: you know, we wanted people who currently exist with white
Speaker 2: privilege to be you know, aware of the fact that
Speaker 2: they benefit from the current system. But I think some
Speaker 2: people took it too far and wanting to like punish
Speaker 2: people whose ancestors, you know, were part of a much
Speaker 2: more racially inequitable world. You know, it's like calling them
Speaker 2: a virus, saying you know, you're inherently evil if you're
Speaker 2: a white person. And it's like these fucking white kids
Speaker 2: came up just being like, fuck, well, I haven't done
Speaker 2: anything to anyone, and I'm I'm also poor, and I
Speaker 2: don't know why I'm being held responsible for these actions
Speaker 2: of people I never met and didn't know and I
Speaker 2: don't share their politics, but I'm being blamed for it.
Speaker 2: And so then they turned away from us because they
Speaker 2: were like, fuck, I'm not safe with these people. They
Speaker 2: think I'm a virus, they think I'm a disease, they
Speaker 2: think I'm born inherently evil, and they went off. We
Speaker 2: lost those boys. We can see it in all the
Speaker 2: election results around the world. We lost all the people
Speaker 2: that we labeled, and so we need to stop fucking
Speaker 2: labeling each other and remember everyone is a product of
Speaker 2: their fucking environment. We need to remember that ultimately, the
Speaker 2: people who are true evil are at the very top
Speaker 2: of all of these countries. It's corporations and it's some governments.
Speaker 2: And we need to work together so that we all
Speaker 2: have equity. Women, women and men working together in a
Speaker 2: world always benefits the GDP, it benefits society. When we
Speaker 2: take away women's rights, a company slides down its own
Speaker 2: fucking asshole.
Speaker 1: You know, it looks like shit, it.
Speaker 2: Smells, it's bad, but there's no money. Everyone's fucking broke.
Speaker 2: Everyone's miserable. People are killing themselves, children are getting like,
Speaker 2: people are marrying.
Speaker 1: Children off to grown men.
Speaker 3: Like.
Speaker 2: That's what happens to a society that takes away the
Speaker 2: rights of women. They're thriving when women are in power.
Speaker 1: They're fucked.
Speaker 2: When women have are completely empowered, And so we need
Speaker 2: to look at that and go, this isn't working for anyone.
Speaker 1: This doesn't work for anyone.
Speaker 2: For us to take away the liberties and rights and
Speaker 2: the value entirely of women.
Speaker 1: It makes women miserable, but it'll all so ultimately make
Speaker 1: men miserable.
Speaker 2: So we just need to find new ways of framing
Speaker 2: things that actually make it appealing for men. You know, like, hey,
Speaker 2: you don't want women to not be able to work
Speaker 2: and then you have to go and do all the
Speaker 2: work and then get to have no fun.
Speaker 1: That sounds shit for you.
Speaker 2: Let her do half the work. She's got perfectly capable. Also,
Speaker 2: happy wife, happy life totally. And also women are fantastic
Speaker 2: and when you're in a great relationship women one, it'll
Speaker 2: make you better. The reason that single men die sooner
Speaker 2: than married men is because a woman will get your
Speaker 2: ass to the fucking doctor. She will love you and
Speaker 2: cuddle you, and all that affection will settle your hormones
Speaker 2: and be good for your health. Loneliness is now considered
Speaker 2: a bigger killer than drinking or smoking. You know, they
Speaker 2: are not benefiting, and not just by the way, not
Speaker 2: just that. One of the saddest things in our society
Speaker 2: is that we place no emphasis or importance on the
Speaker 2: friendship of men and women. There's no movies about friends
Speaker 2: who are men and women who don't end up shagging
Speaker 2: at the end. There's no literature about great friends. There's
Speaker 2: no great stories on the cover of a magazine about
Speaker 2: a man and a woman who had a great idea
Speaker 2: together and they built a company. It's always two women
Speaker 2: or a.
Speaker 1: Bunch of men. Do you know what I mean? We
Speaker 1: don't ever say anything's important.
Speaker 2: So part of the male insecurity that I think we're seeing,
Speaker 2: And I talked about this in the speech I gave
Speaker 2: in twenty eighteen called Tell Him, which is that they
Speaker 2: think that all they're good for is their seed, because
Speaker 2: there's no importance in this world in media of men
Speaker 2: and women beyond romantic relationships, whereas actually some of my
Speaker 2: most meaningful relationships are with men that have nothing to
Speaker 2: do with sex. We have no romantic chemistry whatsoever. And
Speaker 2: they're my collaborators, they're my best friends, they're my ride
Speaker 2: or dies.
Speaker 1: Hey do you still live in a shaer house? Only
Speaker 1: just stopped. But we're planning a share commune, Oh, which
Speaker 1: is exciting. Yeah yeah, yeah, and visit with the name Jamilville.
Speaker 1: So it's a cult. It is a cult. But that
Speaker 1: was great. This is the call you boys. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that would be me. That would be obviously, I have
Speaker 1: the hair of a cult leader. You sure do, I do?
Speaker 2: I do. I have the hair, and I have the confident,
Speaker 2: speaking vibe of a cult leader. So come join anytime
Speaker 2: you're invited.
Speaker 3: Cat White, I'm assuming this will be part of the
Speaker 3: silly chat.
Speaker 1: Serious, I'm so so serious right now? Good?
Speaker 2: But yeah, anyway, Look, this is These are some of
Speaker 2: the things that I think is that I think that
Speaker 2: media has something to answer for.
Speaker 1: I think those of us who are older have something
Speaker 1: to answer for.
Speaker 2: I believe, I have hope that we can turn this
Speaker 2: shit around. But if we don't do it now, we
Speaker 2: are going to run out of an opportunity. The opportunity
Speaker 2: is slipping through our fingers. Fascism is rising, Conservatism is rising.
Speaker 2: Social media is extraordinary at dividing us. We have to
Speaker 2: be having these conversations in person with each other. We
Speaker 2: have to bring men and women together as allies and
Speaker 2: recognize that we are all fucked right now and no
Speaker 2: one doing well or happy, and the only way to
Speaker 2: get out of this is with one another. We've all
Speaker 2: got very different skills and we need to work together
Speaker 2: to build a completely, a completely possible utopia. Remember that
Speaker 2: One of the main reasons that women get targeted around
Speaker 2: their looks all the time is not just a week
Speaker 2: and then distract them, but it's also because women eighty
Speaker 2: percent of the market, we're consumers, so so much of
Speaker 2: the toxicity we're ingesting it is really just to make
Speaker 2: us go out and buy stuff, because if we hate ourselves,
Speaker 2: we're more likely to go out and buy things to
Speaker 2: fix ourselves because we've been convinced we're broken. We're living
Speaker 2: in a fucked system, and we have the power now
Speaker 2: to stop it and to fix it. You know, you've
Speaker 2: talked a lot about your mental health in the past.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, is it showing actually, but in a stunning way,
Speaker 2: in a.
Speaker 3: In a great ways, as you've found your voice, and
Speaker 3: it's really it's like someone sitting flame to an oxy
Speaker 3: tort if.
Speaker 1: You know what I mean. It's just it's got it's
Speaker 1: just so so strong and beautiful.
Speaker 3: Has the liberation of yourself made a difference to your
Speaker 3: mental health and your recovery and you're navigating that.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, of course, speaking our minds can only lead
Speaker 2: to freedom. And you know, so many of women's autoimmune
Speaker 2: diseases have now been linked to the fact that we
Speaker 2: repress so much of our emotions. So the less repressed
Speaker 2: I am, the happier and healthier I am, of course,
Speaker 2: and the more authentic I am, and the more authentic
Speaker 2: I am, the more likely I am to meet people
Speaker 2: that I actually really resonate with, and then I become
Speaker 2: close friends with those people, and then that resolves my loneliness.
Speaker 1: And so it's a wonderful domino effect when you.
Speaker 2: Start to become yourself, and when you give yourself permission
Speaker 2: to fuck up and say the wrong thing and rub
Speaker 2: people out the wrong way sometimes and know that you're
Speaker 2: not going to be every cup of tea. The biggest
Speaker 2: lie that women are told is that you are expected
Speaker 2: to or can ever be everyone's cup of tea. It's
Speaker 2: not possible. We are human beings who have different tastes.
Speaker 2: And it's so funny that I grew up my whole
Speaker 2: life really not liking almost anyone, but hoping everyone would
Speaker 2: like me.
Speaker 1: Are ridiculous? Is that it's so true that.
Speaker 3: If you live in the public sphere and you know
Speaker 3: that that one, you know, arrow can do more than
Speaker 3: a thousand bouquets. Yeah, yeah, And why do we crave
Speaker 3: the approval of people who will never approve of us,
Speaker 3: very likely because they've already decided.
Speaker 2: Women are told that that's the most important thing about
Speaker 2: our existence on this earth is just to be palatable
Speaker 2: in every way.
Speaker 1: Don't take up too much space.
Speaker 2: Just smile, be pretty, look skinny, make everyone else's lives
Speaker 2: more comfortable, you know, and then die.
Speaker 1: But don't look old when you do. Well, you know what,
Speaker 1: Jamila jimil Well you do look pretty. Oh that's very kind.
Speaker 1: So do you look you've checked one of those buttes. Well,
Speaker 1: that's good.
Speaker 2: I've been obedient to the patriarchy today.
Speaker 1: There's my hope.
Speaker 2: I get my.
Speaker 1: Cookie.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think I've just set myself free and
Speaker 2: I've just learned gross self acceptance. And I'm sure part
Speaker 2: of that is the fact that I'm you know, I'm
Speaker 2: fourteen in like ten months, and the greatest gift of
Speaker 2: getting older is realizing that, oh, it's all a scam.
Speaker 2: Everything's a scam. Every beauty standard you were ever given
Speaker 2: was a scam. It was part of an ever changing
Speaker 2: loop that's just going to come back around again. It'll
Speaker 2: be fat and thin, and fat and thin, then fat
Speaker 2: and thin old than young, and you know, like, oh,
Speaker 2: it's all become so exhausting and so silly to me.
Speaker 1: And so I love being older.
Speaker 2: I love every year I get further away from my
Speaker 2: fucking twenties, so I can really actually.
Speaker 1: Enjoy all of this and see that. Oh what was
Speaker 1: I worried about all those years?
Speaker 2: Why was I trying to placate myself and mold myself
Speaker 2: and shape myself and drain myself for a few and
Speaker 2: secure men when actually the world is full of lots
Speaker 2: of men who don't.
Speaker 3: Care about any of this shit. Jamila Jamil, cannot wait
Speaker 3: for this and more. Thank you when we see you
Speaker 3: on our shores.
Speaker 2: Oh, I can't get that fast enough, honestly, thanks for
Speaker 2: joining us on No Filter. I had such a great time.
Speaker 2: Thank you, and thanks for showing yourself pleasure. It sounds
Speaker 2: like I've got my tits out on the podcast.
Speaker 1: Hello. What a titan she is.
Speaker 3: What a great mixture of humor and strength and savvy
Speaker 3: and assiness. I'm talking about Jamila Jamil, by the way,
Speaker 3: and lucky for us, she will be in Australia next
Speaker 3: week touring the country. So if you want to go
Speaker 3: and see her in the glorious flesh, there's a link
Speaker 3: to where you can get tickets.
Speaker 1: In the show notes, the executive.
Speaker 3: Producer of No Filter is Naima Brown, Senior producer Grace Rouvre.
Speaker 3: Sound design is by Jacob Brown and I am your host,
Speaker 3: Kate lane Brook. Back with you next week.