1 00:00:10,365 --> 00:00:15,005 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mama Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges 2 00:00:15,045 --> 00:00:17,685 Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast 3 00:00:17,765 --> 00:00:18,485 Speaker 1: is recorded on. 4 00:00:18,685 --> 00:00:21,085 Speaker 2: We can't be like men, a trash man, A trash man, 5 00:00:21,125 --> 00:00:23,845 Speaker 2: a trash We cannot keep going with this ship. There's 6 00:00:23,885 --> 00:00:26,885 Speaker 2: Miss Andrews shit that's going on that I've been against 7 00:00:26,965 --> 00:00:29,965 Speaker 2: from the very start that I don't think I participated 8 00:00:29,965 --> 00:00:33,925 Speaker 2: in too much, because then, of course, why the fuck 9 00:00:34,005 --> 00:00:36,525 Speaker 2: could teenage boys side with us? 10 00:00:37,085 --> 00:00:39,445 Speaker 1: Why would they think we're a welcoming space to go to? 11 00:00:47,525 --> 00:00:51,485 Speaker 3: Jamila Jamil has never been to Australia, but she feels 12 00:00:51,605 --> 00:00:55,285 Speaker 3: like one of us. She loves to swear, carries a 13 00:00:55,325 --> 00:01:00,805 Speaker 3: nonchalant charm, and has a self assuredness that's genuinely refreshing 14 00:01:00,845 --> 00:01:04,685 Speaker 3: to be around. You might know Jamila as Tahani from 15 00:01:04,685 --> 00:01:07,925 Speaker 3: The Good Place, a role she landed without any formal 16 00:01:08,085 --> 00:01:12,525 Speaker 3: acting training, but in recent years she's become just as 17 00:01:12,525 --> 00:01:17,325 Speaker 3: well known for her activism, speaking out powerfully on issues 18 00:01:17,405 --> 00:01:22,205 Speaker 3: like body image, mental health, and gender equality. Given her 19 00:01:22,245 --> 00:01:26,445 Speaker 3: outspoken advocacy and what she describes as biting the hand 20 00:01:26,485 --> 00:01:29,845 Speaker 3: that feeds her, it's no surprise that Jamila and I 21 00:01:29,925 --> 00:01:33,605 Speaker 3: dove straight into the deep stuff. We talked body image, 22 00:01:33,805 --> 00:01:36,925 Speaker 3: the chaos of the online world, and her call to 23 00:01:37,085 --> 00:01:42,205 Speaker 3: rebrand toxic masculinity. When I asked about Andrew Tate, she 24 00:01:42,245 --> 00:01:45,605 Speaker 3: didn't miss a beat. Why give men like him airtime 25 00:01:46,005 --> 00:01:49,045 Speaker 3: when we should be championing the good ones instead? 26 00:01:49,885 --> 00:01:50,805 Speaker 1: We also talked. 27 00:01:50,565 --> 00:01:53,965 Speaker 3: About friendship and its role in our mental health, the 28 00:01:54,005 --> 00:01:58,005 Speaker 3: importance of lifting each other up, and something I really loved, 29 00:01:58,565 --> 00:02:03,325 Speaker 3: Jamilla's appreciation for aging. She's counting down to her fortieth 30 00:02:03,365 --> 00:02:07,085 Speaker 3: birthday just ten months away and says she couldn't be 31 00:02:07,125 --> 00:02:11,085 Speaker 3: happier to put her twenties behind her. A conversation with 32 00:02:11,165 --> 00:02:14,525 Speaker 3: Jamila Jamil feels like an off the cuff ted talk, 33 00:02:15,245 --> 00:02:20,525 Speaker 3: smart and funny and passionate and completely and filtered. 34 00:02:21,365 --> 00:02:26,845 Speaker 1: Here's Jamila Jamale. Hello, how welcome to No Filter. Well, 35 00:02:26,925 --> 00:02:30,885 Speaker 1: I'm great. You've come from a busy life. 36 00:02:32,285 --> 00:02:35,245 Speaker 3: What was the nature of the whirl wind that blew 37 00:02:35,285 --> 00:02:37,885 Speaker 3: you into us today on No Filter? Oh? 38 00:02:38,005 --> 00:02:40,565 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm recording a new podcast that comes out 39 00:02:40,565 --> 00:02:43,205 Speaker 2: on May seventh, which is called Wrong Turns, and it's 40 00:02:43,205 --> 00:02:46,765 Speaker 2: all about I'm just fucking sick of this inspirational, you know, 41 00:02:47,005 --> 00:02:49,765 Speaker 2: just poorn life that we're in where everything has to 42 00:02:49,805 --> 00:02:52,445 Speaker 2: have some sort of fucking silver lining. So I decided 43 00:02:52,485 --> 00:02:55,005 Speaker 2: to make a podcast about all the dumber shit we 44 00:02:55,045 --> 00:02:57,365 Speaker 2: ever did that There was no great pearl of wisdom 45 00:02:57,445 --> 00:02:58,805 Speaker 2: from there was no silver lining. 46 00:02:58,885 --> 00:03:02,325 Speaker 1: Sometimes we actually get dumber, you know, from that decision. 47 00:03:02,805 --> 00:03:05,685 Speaker 2: And so it's it's all of our bad decisions and 48 00:03:05,725 --> 00:03:09,245 Speaker 2: mishaps that are just kind of anti inspiration pro commiseration. 49 00:03:09,445 --> 00:03:11,645 Speaker 2: So I'm currently recording that before I come over to 50 00:03:11,685 --> 00:03:16,285 Speaker 2: Australia to be with you, which is really exciting. And 51 00:03:17,245 --> 00:03:20,245 Speaker 2: then I'm just writing a lot, writing substat writing books, 52 00:03:20,965 --> 00:03:22,885 Speaker 2: and I've got a Pixel movie coming out in June 53 00:03:23,205 --> 00:03:24,125 Speaker 2: that's Oh. 54 00:03:23,965 --> 00:03:27,925 Speaker 1: Really, are you an animation? I am. I'm a bloody animation. 55 00:03:28,405 --> 00:03:33,285 Speaker 1: I'm a big orange squid thing. But I hope with 56 00:03:33,445 --> 00:03:34,085 Speaker 1: shiny hair. 57 00:03:34,565 --> 00:03:37,125 Speaker 2: Oh I don't think. I don't think i'll have hair, 58 00:03:37,165 --> 00:03:41,445 Speaker 2: But I am shiny. I'm definitely shiny. I'm shiny, I'm sparkly, 59 00:03:41,485 --> 00:03:44,205 Speaker 2: I'm some sort of like obscene ambassador. 60 00:03:44,285 --> 00:03:47,605 Speaker 1: It's all going to be very extra Yeah. 61 00:03:47,645 --> 00:03:49,885 Speaker 3: Good, Well, this is what I expect from you, and 62 00:03:49,925 --> 00:03:53,965 Speaker 3: in fact, I think the world is coming to expect 63 00:03:53,965 --> 00:03:54,525 Speaker 3: that from you. 64 00:03:54,685 --> 00:03:57,045 Speaker 2: Oh God, it depends whether they read the daily mail 65 00:03:57,125 --> 00:03:57,285 Speaker 2: or not. 66 00:03:58,205 --> 00:03:59,245 Speaker 1: Yeah. 67 00:03:59,285 --> 00:04:01,525 Speaker 3: Well, here's the thing about you. Now, this is a 68 00:04:01,525 --> 00:04:03,925 Speaker 3: lot of people know you from the good place, right. 69 00:04:04,725 --> 00:04:06,765 Speaker 3: And when I first saw you, and it was in 70 00:04:06,805 --> 00:04:09,045 Speaker 3: a part in her life when we were I have 71 00:04:09,125 --> 00:04:09,685 Speaker 3: four children. 72 00:04:09,765 --> 00:04:12,005 Speaker 1: We were living in Italy for a couple of years. 73 00:04:11,605 --> 00:04:15,165 Speaker 3: Madness, but so we weren't exposed to a lot of 74 00:04:15,205 --> 00:04:18,645 Speaker 3: that ancillary media that you see when you're in your 75 00:04:18,725 --> 00:04:19,765 Speaker 3: native country. 76 00:04:20,045 --> 00:04:22,045 Speaker 1: Yeah, so I didn't. 77 00:04:21,765 --> 00:04:26,245 Speaker 3: Know you from some of the Yes, yeah I didn't know. 78 00:04:26,685 --> 00:04:28,605 Speaker 3: I saw you on that And this is what I 79 00:04:28,645 --> 00:04:31,405 Speaker 3: thought about you, like enough to do a deep dive 80 00:04:31,485 --> 00:04:34,085 Speaker 3: on you. You know how sometimes people just capture you. 81 00:04:34,085 --> 00:04:38,125 Speaker 3: You've captured a lot of people. I thought that you 82 00:04:38,205 --> 00:04:42,925 Speaker 3: were posh, right, I thought you were posh, and I 83 00:04:43,045 --> 00:04:46,645 Speaker 3: thought you had a posh must have had a posh background. 84 00:04:47,525 --> 00:04:52,645 Speaker 3: And so to have learnt about your upbringing and the 85 00:04:52,685 --> 00:04:57,005 Speaker 3: pain that you experienced as a child, that has led 86 00:04:57,125 --> 00:05:03,245 Speaker 3: you to somehow essue the privileges and all the beautiful things. 87 00:05:03,125 --> 00:05:04,525 Speaker 1: That you say. 88 00:05:04,605 --> 00:05:07,285 Speaker 2: Is that has led me to annihilating my own career 89 00:05:08,365 --> 00:05:11,125 Speaker 2: by every time it feeds me, because I feel very 90 00:05:11,165 --> 00:05:12,605 Speaker 2: passionately about people. 91 00:05:12,325 --> 00:05:13,165 Speaker 1: Who don't have a lot. 92 00:05:13,245 --> 00:05:19,325 Speaker 3: But yeah, yes, well it's an extraordinary thing because we 93 00:05:19,485 --> 00:05:22,525 Speaker 3: do know, those of us who work in any platform 94 00:05:22,565 --> 00:05:26,605 Speaker 3: really where you can you can make choices to pursue 95 00:05:26,645 --> 00:05:30,005 Speaker 3: certain goals, and they might be you could have been 96 00:05:30,045 --> 00:05:30,925 Speaker 3: a material girl. 97 00:05:31,205 --> 00:05:33,245 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I could have. 98 00:05:33,565 --> 00:05:36,125 Speaker 2: There are days where I think maybe I should have. 99 00:05:37,685 --> 00:05:41,565 Speaker 2: But generally I sleep better at night if at all, 100 00:05:41,885 --> 00:05:44,405 Speaker 2: knowing that I've taken the path I have because I 101 00:05:44,445 --> 00:05:47,165 Speaker 2: you know, my inner twelve year old follows me everywhere 102 00:05:47,165 --> 00:05:49,765 Speaker 2: and she's such a judgmental little bitch that I just 103 00:05:49,965 --> 00:05:52,485 Speaker 2: wouldn't be able to get anything past her. 104 00:05:52,605 --> 00:05:54,205 Speaker 1: I have. I have to. 105 00:05:54,245 --> 00:05:58,285 Speaker 2: Do what I do otherwise she'll, you know, she'll give 106 00:05:58,325 --> 00:05:59,885 Speaker 2: me the stinkye and I can't bear it. 107 00:05:59,925 --> 00:06:02,605 Speaker 1: So everything I do is for her. And a child 108 00:06:02,685 --> 00:06:04,485 Speaker 1: stinkite is the worst. 109 00:06:04,245 --> 00:06:07,565 Speaker 2: The worst, because they really, like, you know, they're hard 110 00:06:07,645 --> 00:06:07,925 Speaker 2: to that. 111 00:06:08,325 --> 00:06:10,405 Speaker 1: Kids really get it. They can really see you. 112 00:06:10,765 --> 00:06:12,485 Speaker 2: That's why there's nothing worse than when you pick up 113 00:06:12,485 --> 00:06:13,405 Speaker 2: a baby and it cries. 114 00:06:13,885 --> 00:06:15,485 Speaker 1: You're like, fuck, you can see. 115 00:06:15,245 --> 00:06:20,125 Speaker 2: I've got no soul shit, Or when a dog barks 116 00:06:20,125 --> 00:06:20,485 Speaker 2: at you. 117 00:06:20,485 --> 00:06:23,605 Speaker 1: You know, yeah, it's embarrassing, you like feel as so. 118 00:06:25,085 --> 00:06:27,445 Speaker 2: Yeah, and much rather an adult hates me than a baby. 119 00:06:28,845 --> 00:06:35,525 Speaker 3: Well, speaking of hating you, Yeah, but you are coming 120 00:06:35,565 --> 00:06:37,005 Speaker 3: to Australia, Yes. 121 00:06:37,085 --> 00:06:41,045 Speaker 1: You're You're here next week, which is a rare trait. 122 00:06:41,205 --> 00:06:43,405 Speaker 1: Have you been here before? I've never been. I've always 123 00:06:43,445 --> 00:06:43,885 Speaker 1: wanted to go. 124 00:06:44,445 --> 00:06:47,885 Speaker 2: Oh really Yeah. I watched a movie called The Castle 125 00:06:48,525 --> 00:06:52,365 Speaker 2: when I was a child, and I became obsessed with 126 00:06:52,605 --> 00:06:56,045 Speaker 2: Australian culture after that. And then obviously it's like Muriel's 127 00:06:56,045 --> 00:06:57,805 Speaker 2: Wedding I think had come out just before then, which 128 00:06:57,805 --> 00:07:00,925 Speaker 2: I then started watching religiously and then consuming it. 129 00:07:01,245 --> 00:07:04,205 Speaker 1: Katherine Kim Yeah, yeah, I think him. 130 00:07:04,845 --> 00:07:06,845 Speaker 2: And so like I've always like, you know, all the 131 00:07:06,885 --> 00:07:09,005 Speaker 2: stuff that I watch on like on social media is 132 00:07:09,005 --> 00:07:11,765 Speaker 2: all like Australian comedy that I've just been. I've had 133 00:07:11,765 --> 00:07:15,045 Speaker 2: a long running obsession with Australia and never managed to 134 00:07:15,045 --> 00:07:17,845 Speaker 2: get out there because it's such a long flight and 135 00:07:17,845 --> 00:07:19,845 Speaker 2: also I just didn't know if anyone would want to 136 00:07:19,845 --> 00:07:22,045 Speaker 2: see me out there. But then when I was invited 137 00:07:22,085 --> 00:07:22,885 Speaker 2: to come speak. 138 00:07:22,605 --> 00:07:24,885 Speaker 1: I was like one hundred percent yes, get me there now. 139 00:07:25,485 --> 00:07:30,165 Speaker 3: Well, so, because you do have an Australian ness to 140 00:07:30,365 --> 00:07:37,365 Speaker 3: your energy, which is you're a massive swear, massive swear. 141 00:07:37,405 --> 00:07:41,485 Speaker 3: But there's a forthrightness to you. Yeah, and so when 142 00:07:41,525 --> 00:07:44,005 Speaker 3: you come out here and it's described as a as 143 00:07:44,045 --> 00:07:48,845 Speaker 3: a night of candid conversation and so hard chat and 144 00:07:48,925 --> 00:07:53,845 Speaker 3: silly discussion, the hard chat, I know you can go hard. 145 00:07:55,325 --> 00:07:58,085 Speaker 3: What will be the hard chat? Can I guess some 146 00:07:58,125 --> 00:08:02,085 Speaker 3: of it? I mean, I'm sure you can body stuff? 147 00:08:02,205 --> 00:08:03,965 Speaker 1: Yeah, men. 148 00:08:05,005 --> 00:08:11,365 Speaker 3: Yeah, toxic masculinity, which which is I don't know what 149 00:08:11,525 --> 00:08:14,565 Speaker 3: term exists anymore, Like it's not masculinity, whatever the fuck 150 00:08:14,645 --> 00:08:16,045 Speaker 3: that is is not masculinity. 151 00:08:16,365 --> 00:08:19,125 Speaker 2: I know what musculinity is. I love musculinity. Not only 152 00:08:19,165 --> 00:08:22,445 Speaker 2: do I have musculinity within myself, but my boyfriend is 153 00:08:22,445 --> 00:08:25,605 Speaker 2: a very masculine man. Whatever I'm seeing in that other 154 00:08:25,685 --> 00:08:27,365 Speaker 2: ship has got to have a new name. 155 00:08:28,765 --> 00:08:32,165 Speaker 3: Okay, So but yeah, sorry, it'll be a well no, 156 00:08:32,285 --> 00:08:36,725 Speaker 3: I was going to say in your your great since 157 00:08:36,805 --> 00:08:40,485 Speaker 3: renamed podcast, Iwagh, that was always very interesting. You had 158 00:08:40,525 --> 00:08:43,925 Speaker 3: a conversation with James Baldoni in which Jason and it 159 00:08:43,965 --> 00:08:47,525 Speaker 3: was justin Baldoni Sorry, I'm trying to invoke your boyfriend 160 00:08:47,605 --> 00:08:50,925 Speaker 3: as well, where he said he didn't like the term 161 00:08:51,045 --> 00:08:54,325 Speaker 3: toxic masculinity, which was the first. 162 00:08:54,005 --> 00:08:56,045 Speaker 1: Time really that I had thought about that. 163 00:08:56,765 --> 00:09:00,805 Speaker 3: Through that prism since then, because that was a couple 164 00:09:00,845 --> 00:09:06,405 Speaker 3: of years ago, things have escalated, Yeah, fast, What is it? 165 00:09:06,485 --> 00:09:10,045 Speaker 1: Do you think it's a couple off and things? 166 00:09:10,245 --> 00:09:12,485 Speaker 2: It's you know, I think part of it is the 167 00:09:12,485 --> 00:09:15,285 Speaker 2: fact that the Internet means that everything moves so fast 168 00:09:15,365 --> 00:09:18,285 Speaker 2: and snowballs. But I think ultimately it's the male loneliness epidemic. 169 00:09:18,765 --> 00:09:21,725 Speaker 2: And rather than them looking up the fact that the 170 00:09:21,765 --> 00:09:27,845 Speaker 2: patriarchy destroys men's lives, they look at us as the problem. 171 00:09:27,925 --> 00:09:29,645 Speaker 2: They see that women are getting ahead. We know, we're 172 00:09:29,645 --> 00:09:32,365 Speaker 2: doing better at school. We learn to read and write 173 00:09:32,405 --> 00:09:34,805 Speaker 2: faster than boys, and we generally tend to excel at 174 00:09:34,805 --> 00:09:39,365 Speaker 2: secondary school. We are buying houses faster than boys. We 175 00:09:39,405 --> 00:09:43,725 Speaker 2: are securing ourselves financially. The vibrators have become brilliant, and 176 00:09:44,445 --> 00:09:47,245 Speaker 2: women friendships are stronger than they've ever been, you know, 177 00:09:47,325 --> 00:09:52,445 Speaker 2: post media movement, women have become less divisive towards one another, 178 00:09:52,485 --> 00:09:56,045 Speaker 2: and we've started to really pair up and find that 179 00:09:56,405 --> 00:09:58,365 Speaker 2: got a lot of what I need from a relationship, 180 00:09:58,365 --> 00:10:01,525 Speaker 2: what're mctually getting from my mates? And so really now 181 00:10:01,645 --> 00:10:03,885 Speaker 2: our standard has become very high of that I don't 182 00:10:04,325 --> 00:10:08,245 Speaker 2: need you, I want to want someone. You know, I 183 00:10:08,325 --> 00:10:10,165 Speaker 2: was just talking about this recently on another podcast, that 184 00:10:10,565 --> 00:10:11,805 Speaker 2: I don't need my boyfriend. 185 00:10:12,005 --> 00:10:13,605 Speaker 1: I make as much money as him. 186 00:10:13,805 --> 00:10:16,085 Speaker 2: I can afford my house on my own, I have 187 00:10:16,165 --> 00:10:17,325 Speaker 2: a great circle of friends. 188 00:10:17,525 --> 00:10:19,325 Speaker 1: He's in my life because I want him, not because 189 00:10:19,365 --> 00:10:19,925 Speaker 1: I need him. 190 00:10:20,485 --> 00:10:24,845 Speaker 2: And and I think that men have no tools as 191 00:10:24,885 --> 00:10:28,165 Speaker 2: to rise to the occasion to be the emotionally intelligent 192 00:10:28,205 --> 00:10:29,445 Speaker 2: partners in crime that we need. 193 00:10:30,005 --> 00:10:31,845 Speaker 1: So it's easier just to drag us down. 194 00:10:33,405 --> 00:10:35,765 Speaker 2: It's easier to drag us back down to where we 195 00:10:35,765 --> 00:10:38,445 Speaker 2: were before rather than level up to where women are now. 196 00:10:39,165 --> 00:10:41,365 Speaker 1: And we see that all the time. We've seen that 197 00:10:41,405 --> 00:10:42,085 Speaker 1: throughout history. 198 00:10:42,085 --> 00:10:45,325 Speaker 2: Anytime women start to excel, rather than men going fuck, 199 00:10:45,365 --> 00:10:47,085 Speaker 2: they're kind of keep catching up with us, or they're 200 00:10:47,085 --> 00:10:49,565 Speaker 2: getting ahead. We need to step up our game, they 201 00:10:49,605 --> 00:10:51,365 Speaker 2: just go, okay, let's just rip them back down, take 202 00:10:51,365 --> 00:10:54,445 Speaker 2: away their rights, distract them, make them feel ugly, make 203 00:10:54,445 --> 00:10:59,285 Speaker 2: them feel old, scare the shit out of them, and 204 00:10:59,325 --> 00:11:01,925 Speaker 2: then they'll feel like they need us again. And that 205 00:11:02,045 --> 00:11:03,845 Speaker 2: to me is just very sad because then men miss 206 00:11:03,885 --> 00:11:04,565 Speaker 2: out on evolding. 207 00:11:05,685 --> 00:11:09,965 Speaker 3: Well, that's the theories, you know, it's a if you 208 00:11:10,325 --> 00:11:12,725 Speaker 3: play a part in your own demise, that's kind of 209 00:11:12,765 --> 00:11:16,125 Speaker 3: what's happening with a lot of men because of the isolation, 210 00:11:16,245 --> 00:11:20,005 Speaker 3: the alienation from women, They denied the gifts that women 211 00:11:20,205 --> 00:11:21,325 Speaker 3: bring to life. 212 00:11:21,485 --> 00:11:23,165 Speaker 1: Yeah, but also they're not taught even how to talk 213 00:11:23,165 --> 00:11:23,645 Speaker 1: to each other. 214 00:11:23,725 --> 00:11:26,365 Speaker 2: The amount of times I'll fucking i'll know so much 215 00:11:26,365 --> 00:11:28,565 Speaker 2: more about my male friends than my male friends know 216 00:11:28,605 --> 00:11:31,045 Speaker 2: about each other. And they've known each other for longer. 217 00:11:31,285 --> 00:11:32,925 Speaker 2: I'll know one of them is going through a divorce, 218 00:11:33,005 --> 00:11:34,965 Speaker 2: or one of them suicidal, or one of them struggling 219 00:11:35,005 --> 00:11:38,205 Speaker 2: with anxiety or a rectile fucking dysfunction, and they may 220 00:11:38,365 --> 00:11:41,205 Speaker 2: have no idea about any of this. They don't talk 221 00:11:41,245 --> 00:11:43,365 Speaker 2: to each other. Like how many times have you heard 222 00:11:43,365 --> 00:11:46,205 Speaker 2: a like a middle let Like you heard your dad 223 00:11:46,285 --> 00:11:48,765 Speaker 2: come home from seeing another dad who's going through a 224 00:11:48,805 --> 00:11:50,805 Speaker 2: divorce and asked him how he's doing? Is like, oh, 225 00:11:50,805 --> 00:11:53,165 Speaker 2: I never came up. It's just they don't talk to 226 00:11:53,205 --> 00:11:55,565 Speaker 2: each other, you know. Katlain Moran wrote this fucking brilliant 227 00:11:55,565 --> 00:11:57,365 Speaker 2: book called What About Boys, and she talks about the 228 00:11:57,365 --> 00:12:00,325 Speaker 2: fact that men don't even plan for their third act. 229 00:12:00,645 --> 00:12:04,005 Speaker 2: Women are continuously planning for their third act. We're gathering 230 00:12:04,005 --> 00:12:06,325 Speaker 2: our friendship, strengthening the ones that we want to really 231 00:12:06,365 --> 00:12:09,925 Speaker 2: grow old with. You know, we're plotting our lives for 232 00:12:10,005 --> 00:12:12,965 Speaker 2: when the children grow up and leave the home. Men don't. 233 00:12:13,045 --> 00:12:15,405 Speaker 2: Men just start to atrophy once they get married and 234 00:12:15,445 --> 00:12:17,445 Speaker 2: they stop keeping up with their friendships as much, and 235 00:12:17,485 --> 00:12:19,365 Speaker 2: then they kind of settle on the idea that well, 236 00:12:19,405 --> 00:12:21,965 Speaker 2: I guess I'll just become friends with whoever the husband 237 00:12:22,045 --> 00:12:25,045 Speaker 2: is of my wife's friends, and she'll organize our social calendar. 238 00:12:25,125 --> 00:12:28,845 Speaker 2: And that's fucking devastating for them. They're not taught to 239 00:12:29,405 --> 00:12:33,085 Speaker 2: build out their emotional skill sets, and it's hurting them 240 00:12:33,085 --> 00:12:35,085 Speaker 2: because look at how fast they're killing themselves. You know, 241 00:12:35,125 --> 00:12:37,365 Speaker 2: America's got all this gun death. Sixty percent of that 242 00:12:37,405 --> 00:12:40,205 Speaker 2: gun death is men turning the gun on themselves. There's 243 00:12:40,205 --> 00:12:43,005 Speaker 2: a reason more men kill themselves than women, and it's 244 00:12:43,005 --> 00:12:45,165 Speaker 2: because women have each other. Men don't have each other, 245 00:12:45,285 --> 00:12:46,645 Speaker 2: and they don't really have us. 246 00:12:51,165 --> 00:12:54,165 Speaker 3: Coming up after this short break, Jamila, she is the 247 00:12:54,285 --> 00:12:57,885 Speaker 3: mean we should be talking about. I mean, when I 248 00:12:57,925 --> 00:13:01,325 Speaker 3: say she shares them, we discuss them anyway. 249 00:13:01,365 --> 00:13:02,365 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. 250 00:13:06,045 --> 00:13:10,685 Speaker 3: So when we're like having this discussion, Yeah, how do 251 00:13:10,845 --> 00:13:16,725 Speaker 3: we have the discussion without other ring meen from that process? 252 00:13:17,485 --> 00:13:18,525 Speaker 1: Is it up to us? 253 00:13:18,685 --> 00:13:22,445 Speaker 3: Is it up to women, which is such a mind 254 00:13:22,485 --> 00:13:24,805 Speaker 3: boggle to try and draw men in. 255 00:13:26,525 --> 00:13:29,365 Speaker 1: I think you're not gonna like answer, well, I know, 256 00:13:29,485 --> 00:13:33,565 Speaker 1: I I tell me, I think it is. I think 257 00:13:33,605 --> 00:13:33,925 Speaker 1: it is. 258 00:13:34,125 --> 00:13:37,125 Speaker 2: I think we You know, men are on the fucking 259 00:13:37,165 --> 00:13:40,085 Speaker 2: front lines, literally with their bodies. And maybe there aren't 260 00:13:40,165 --> 00:13:42,405 Speaker 2: that many wars in all of our countries, right, but 261 00:13:42,685 --> 00:13:44,765 Speaker 2: whenever there is any kind of shit that goes down, 262 00:13:44,805 --> 00:13:46,605 Speaker 2: it's men who were sent. To the point where when 263 00:13:46,605 --> 00:13:49,005 Speaker 2: we talk about who dies at war, we talk about 264 00:13:49,045 --> 00:13:51,245 Speaker 2: women and children. We never talk about how many men 265 00:13:51,365 --> 00:13:53,965 Speaker 2: died at war. We're like, and women and children were killed. 266 00:13:54,005 --> 00:13:57,885 Speaker 2: They're seen as completely fucking disposable, and they have built 267 00:13:58,045 --> 00:14:01,725 Speaker 2: these worlds for us. They have built much of this world, 268 00:14:01,765 --> 00:14:03,965 Speaker 2: and that has not necessarily been our choice. We would 269 00:14:03,965 --> 00:14:05,885 Speaker 2: have happily it was three hundred and fifty women who 270 00:14:05,965 --> 00:14:08,805 Speaker 2: built the Waterloo Bridge. Women are perfectly capable and could 271 00:14:08,845 --> 00:14:11,485 Speaker 2: have definitely participated in that. We're held back. But the 272 00:14:11,525 --> 00:14:13,845 Speaker 2: point is is that men put their bodies on the line. 273 00:14:14,005 --> 00:14:16,845 Speaker 2: That's where they are superior to ours is in their physicality. 274 00:14:17,325 --> 00:14:21,005 Speaker 2: Our superiority comes in our emotional intelligence. So therefore, let's 275 00:14:21,045 --> 00:14:22,965 Speaker 2: bring that to the table. Our bodies will never be 276 00:14:23,045 --> 00:14:25,805 Speaker 2: frontline on a war. Our bodies will never be used 277 00:14:25,845 --> 00:14:27,845 Speaker 2: for physical labor or down the minds and the same 278 00:14:27,925 --> 00:14:31,645 Speaker 2: numbers that men's are. So let us step up and 279 00:14:31,725 --> 00:14:34,125 Speaker 2: use the thing that we're fucking brilliant at, which is 280 00:14:34,165 --> 00:14:37,605 Speaker 2: showing people how to communicate with each other, how to build. 281 00:14:37,725 --> 00:14:40,605 Speaker 2: You know that women are so intelligent and powerful. We 282 00:14:40,645 --> 00:14:43,645 Speaker 2: have all these gifts, and by just keeping them amongst 283 00:14:43,685 --> 00:14:47,525 Speaker 2: ourselves and hoarding them and not going out there and 284 00:14:47,565 --> 00:14:51,605 Speaker 2: reaching out to and across two men, we're suffering because 285 00:14:51,765 --> 00:14:54,765 Speaker 2: then the more crazy they become, the more they hurt us. 286 00:14:55,045 --> 00:14:57,765 Speaker 2: So it's in our best interest to use this superpower 287 00:14:57,805 --> 00:15:00,525 Speaker 2: we have and share it and share the tools of 288 00:15:00,565 --> 00:15:01,645 Speaker 2: it with them. 289 00:15:01,885 --> 00:15:04,525 Speaker 3: That's my opinion. And some people really don't like that. 290 00:15:05,245 --> 00:15:09,045 Speaker 3: I can imagine that people don't like it. But also 291 00:15:09,085 --> 00:15:13,285 Speaker 3: be any discussion about this is so people are so 292 00:15:13,365 --> 00:15:16,845 Speaker 3: binary in their opinions now, which is not working. 293 00:15:17,165 --> 00:15:19,445 Speaker 2: No, But also, like listen, we're just so fucking emotional 294 00:15:19,485 --> 00:15:21,485 Speaker 2: about everything, and I don't think we ever step back 295 00:15:21,925 --> 00:15:24,765 Speaker 2: and are encouraged to be logical or to have critical thinking. 296 00:15:24,885 --> 00:15:25,125 Speaker 1: Right. 297 00:15:25,445 --> 00:15:29,605 Speaker 2: Logically, of course, if you have but the superiority in 298 00:15:29,645 --> 00:15:32,165 Speaker 2: a skill, you should go and teach the others if 299 00:15:32,205 --> 00:15:33,925 Speaker 2: you want the whole land to be. 300 00:15:33,925 --> 00:15:35,445 Speaker 1: Able to do that skill. 301 00:15:35,525 --> 00:15:35,685 Speaker 2: Right. 302 00:15:35,765 --> 00:15:37,165 Speaker 1: But I understand why women. 303 00:15:37,245 --> 00:15:39,765 Speaker 2: I have been one of those women, those loud, angry 304 00:15:39,805 --> 00:15:43,605 Speaker 2: feminist women who just thinks, well, fuck off, why should 305 00:15:43,645 --> 00:15:45,605 Speaker 2: we have to do this work for you? Figure out? 306 00:15:46,045 --> 00:15:49,845 Speaker 2: They literally can't. And instead of figuring out, because they're 307 00:15:50,005 --> 00:15:53,445 Speaker 2: so bad at this, they're just stripping our rights and 308 00:15:53,485 --> 00:15:57,005 Speaker 2: taking us back to the nineteen twenties. That's what's happening. 309 00:15:57,045 --> 00:15:59,405 Speaker 2: They have no idea, they don't have the manual of 310 00:15:59,445 --> 00:16:01,805 Speaker 2: how to rise up to our level. So we've got 311 00:16:01,845 --> 00:16:04,205 Speaker 2: to show them for our sake. 312 00:16:05,005 --> 00:16:06,445 Speaker 1: Yes, for everybody's sake. 313 00:16:06,885 --> 00:16:10,525 Speaker 3: But you know how you say you have changed in 314 00:16:10,565 --> 00:16:15,085 Speaker 3: your approach, you know your thoughts about this. What is 315 00:16:15,125 --> 00:16:17,445 Speaker 3: the process that led you to the change? 316 00:16:17,805 --> 00:16:19,565 Speaker 2: I think it was watching the way that everyone spoke 317 00:16:19,605 --> 00:16:22,765 Speaker 2: to each other during COVID. You know, everyone split off 318 00:16:22,805 --> 00:16:27,005 Speaker 2: into kind of two camps. And I was so dehumanizing 319 00:16:27,005 --> 00:16:29,645 Speaker 2: and hideous to each other so fast, and like mates 320 00:16:29,645 --> 00:16:32,685 Speaker 2: who've been friends for years, we're not talking to each. 321 00:16:32,565 --> 00:16:35,485 Speaker 1: Other anymore, and the language became so violent. 322 00:16:35,565 --> 00:16:37,165 Speaker 2: I was looking at the way that people felt comfortable 323 00:16:37,165 --> 00:16:40,125 Speaker 2: to speak to each other everywhere. And I thought, oh, 324 00:16:40,205 --> 00:16:43,605 Speaker 2: I've got a little footprint in this, because I rose 325 00:16:43,845 --> 00:16:48,005 Speaker 2: to prominence as someone who's a you know, brash straight talker, 326 00:16:48,485 --> 00:16:50,965 Speaker 2: very like, fuck you and you can fuck off, and 327 00:16:51,005 --> 00:16:53,725 Speaker 2: you're an in cell and you're a twat, and you know, 328 00:16:54,365 --> 00:16:57,405 Speaker 2: just like I was very finger pointing, very rude, very judgmental, 329 00:16:57,565 --> 00:17:01,205 Speaker 2: very alienating. And I was congratulated for that. I was 330 00:17:01,245 --> 00:17:03,645 Speaker 2: rewarded for it. I was decorated for it. I was called, 331 00:17:03,725 --> 00:17:05,165 Speaker 2: you know, Harper's magazine called me. 332 00:17:05,365 --> 00:17:06,885 Speaker 1: Like the feminist hero we need. 333 00:17:06,965 --> 00:17:09,325 Speaker 2: I was named as one of Time magazines twenty five 334 00:17:09,445 --> 00:17:11,365 Speaker 2: most influential women. I was put on the cover of 335 00:17:11,445 --> 00:17:14,365 Speaker 2: like five different vogues. I couldn't there couldn't have been 336 00:17:14,405 --> 00:17:17,605 Speaker 2: more of a message out there that behaving like me 337 00:17:18,405 --> 00:17:21,005 Speaker 2: is the right thing to do, and this will get 338 00:17:21,005 --> 00:17:23,485 Speaker 2: you ahead, and this is the right way to communicate 339 00:17:23,525 --> 00:17:26,525 Speaker 2: your feelings and your activism and your passion. So by 340 00:17:26,565 --> 00:17:29,645 Speaker 2: my being so decorated for what is objectively actually not 341 00:17:29,725 --> 00:17:31,485 Speaker 2: very helpful behavior, I helped. 342 00:17:31,685 --> 00:17:32,205 Speaker 1: I helped. 343 00:17:32,205 --> 00:17:33,845 Speaker 2: I don't think I was responsible for it. I think 344 00:17:33,925 --> 00:17:36,765 Speaker 2: Piers Morgan's got his own bigger footprint. But I helped 345 00:17:36,845 --> 00:17:40,005 Speaker 2: contribute to a world that speaks to each other in 346 00:17:40,045 --> 00:17:45,085 Speaker 2: a dehumanizing, impatient, and unempathetic way. And when I recognized 347 00:17:45,605 --> 00:17:49,565 Speaker 2: my contribution to that culture, I was like, right, I'm 348 00:17:49,565 --> 00:17:51,325 Speaker 2: going to fucking do something about this now. And so 349 00:17:51,325 --> 00:17:53,845 Speaker 2: I spent the last four years trying to atone for 350 00:17:53,925 --> 00:17:57,085 Speaker 2: it with a full mea culpa and trying to encourage 351 00:17:57,125 --> 00:18:01,085 Speaker 2: people to actually move forward with logic and empathy. 352 00:18:02,365 --> 00:18:07,485 Speaker 3: And so because also your mastery of a pithy phrase 353 00:18:07,685 --> 00:18:09,005 Speaker 3: is you mean what. 354 00:18:09,085 --> 00:18:14,765 Speaker 1: I call Lawrence Fox are freshly wranked col Yes, yes, 355 00:18:14,845 --> 00:18:21,845 Speaker 1: I yes, I do not my finest hour, but you know. 356 00:18:22,645 --> 00:18:27,605 Speaker 3: No, there's something to be our very t shirt worthy. 357 00:18:28,605 --> 00:18:30,685 Speaker 1: But what was the moment? 358 00:18:30,765 --> 00:18:36,525 Speaker 3: Because for us to make progress now requires a shift 359 00:18:36,645 --> 00:18:42,405 Speaker 3: in thinking, yes, and it requires us to instead look externally, 360 00:18:42,445 --> 00:18:45,085 Speaker 3: because as you sort of alluded to, it's very easy 361 00:18:45,125 --> 00:18:45,605 Speaker 3: in this world to. 362 00:18:45,605 --> 00:18:48,205 Speaker 1: Go will you do this? And we need to look internally, 363 00:18:48,285 --> 00:18:51,085 Speaker 1: not externally. All we've been doing is looking externally. What 364 00:18:51,125 --> 00:18:54,885 Speaker 1: we need to be doing is going right. Why how 365 00:18:54,925 --> 00:18:56,365 Speaker 1: do I learn best? 366 00:18:56,645 --> 00:19:01,005 Speaker 2: Do I learn best when I'm being shamed, labeled, screamed at, 367 00:19:01,485 --> 00:19:04,885 Speaker 2: or spoken down to or do I learn best when 368 00:19:04,885 --> 00:19:08,045 Speaker 2: someone's being a little bit patient with me but firm 369 00:19:08,245 --> 00:19:10,565 Speaker 2: and giving me the fact yes, and giving me a 370 00:19:10,605 --> 00:19:13,005 Speaker 2: bit of the benefit of the doubt and giving me 371 00:19:13,125 --> 00:19:16,845 Speaker 2: time to adjust. Obviously we all learn better with the latter. 372 00:19:17,125 --> 00:19:18,725 Speaker 2: So how the fuck did we think the way that 373 00:19:18,725 --> 00:19:20,445 Speaker 2: we were going about things was going to work for 374 00:19:20,485 --> 00:19:23,085 Speaker 2: anyone else when that's not how any of us learn 375 00:19:23,285 --> 00:19:26,605 Speaker 2: No one learns well under duress. And because we were 376 00:19:26,605 --> 00:19:30,085 Speaker 2: so angry, rightfully so, and we will be angry again 377 00:19:30,125 --> 00:19:33,085 Speaker 2: when the shit's over, when the pendulum swings back, which 378 00:19:33,085 --> 00:19:35,845 Speaker 2: it inevitably will, we have got to do a better 379 00:19:35,925 --> 00:19:39,405 Speaker 2: job at taking a breath and thinking, how am I 380 00:19:39,565 --> 00:19:43,125 Speaker 2: most like? My main objective is not to communicate how 381 00:19:43,165 --> 00:19:46,205 Speaker 2: angry I am or get revenge. My main objective is change. 382 00:19:46,445 --> 00:19:49,965 Speaker 2: How do I most effectively get change? And that's by 383 00:19:49,965 --> 00:19:52,045 Speaker 2: speaking to someone in a way that they're actually going 384 00:19:52,125 --> 00:19:53,725 Speaker 2: to hear you, they're actually. 385 00:19:53,285 --> 00:19:55,365 Speaker 1: Going to learn, and they're more likely going to emphathize 386 00:19:55,365 --> 00:19:55,605 Speaker 1: with you. 387 00:19:56,565 --> 00:20:01,165 Speaker 3: Interesting because I have four children, three of them are boys, 388 00:20:01,685 --> 00:20:08,165 Speaker 3: double well done, very like a fascinating a living experiment, 389 00:20:08,245 --> 00:20:11,325 Speaker 3: if you will, And the eldest is twenty one now 390 00:20:11,325 --> 00:20:13,605 Speaker 3: the youngest is fifteen, and in that time I have 391 00:20:13,805 --> 00:20:16,925 Speaker 3: seen the rise of I'm just going to say, the 392 00:20:16,965 --> 00:20:21,245 Speaker 3: Andrew Tates. Yeah, the eldest not so much, but the 393 00:20:21,285 --> 00:20:24,485 Speaker 3: youngest has been exposed to it and his mates, and 394 00:20:24,525 --> 00:20:26,765 Speaker 3: even though they keep it sort of quiet, you know 395 00:20:26,845 --> 00:20:31,245 Speaker 3: that it's just and they're not subscribers, but it's what's 396 00:20:31,285 --> 00:20:35,245 Speaker 3: in the background for them. The question I always have, 397 00:20:35,365 --> 00:20:38,045 Speaker 3: And when I was discussing it with my husband, I 398 00:20:38,125 --> 00:20:40,565 Speaker 3: said to him. Initially, oh God, I can't wait till 399 00:20:40,565 --> 00:20:45,045 Speaker 3: Andrew Tate falls in love with a woman and becomes humanized. 400 00:20:46,125 --> 00:20:49,405 Speaker 3: But now I think I don't think he can. 401 00:20:49,965 --> 00:20:51,645 Speaker 2: I mean, I just don't know anything about him. I 402 00:20:51,685 --> 00:20:54,885 Speaker 2: have paid no attention to him. To be perfectly honest, 403 00:20:54,925 --> 00:20:56,485 Speaker 2: I don't really speak about him publicly. 404 00:20:57,045 --> 00:21:00,125 Speaker 1: I don't think that's the way to go about shifting men. 405 00:21:00,565 --> 00:21:03,525 Speaker 2: Men ultimately at base level just want to get laid, 406 00:21:04,325 --> 00:21:06,365 Speaker 2: and if you tell them that the way to get 407 00:21:06,405 --> 00:21:08,085 Speaker 2: laid is by being. 408 00:21:08,165 --> 00:21:11,165 Speaker 1: In this sort of way, they're more likely to try out. 409 00:21:11,245 --> 00:21:13,085 Speaker 2: So rather than us spending all of our time and 410 00:21:13,125 --> 00:21:16,405 Speaker 2: attention on trying to bring down and talk about and 411 00:21:16,445 --> 00:21:18,965 Speaker 2: shit on the bad men in this world where we 412 00:21:19,045 --> 00:21:21,765 Speaker 2: only make them more powerful and richer and give them 413 00:21:21,765 --> 00:21:24,845 Speaker 2: more algorithmic attention, and then they make more money on 414 00:21:24,885 --> 00:21:27,125 Speaker 2: their YouTube views, and then they get nicer cars and 415 00:21:27,205 --> 00:21:31,125 Speaker 2: nicer stuff if we just collectively ignore them and start 416 00:21:31,165 --> 00:21:34,605 Speaker 2: like elevating the men who are really great, who are great, 417 00:21:34,645 --> 00:21:36,845 Speaker 2: who are great, and start like, you know, I was 418 00:21:37,485 --> 00:21:39,525 Speaker 2: just talking about this recently on another podcast, like look 419 00:21:39,525 --> 00:21:42,045 Speaker 2: at how the world reacted to Benny Blanco talking about 420 00:21:42,045 --> 00:21:44,925 Speaker 2: Selena Gomez and how wonderful and emotionally intelligence he was, 421 00:21:45,125 --> 00:21:47,005 Speaker 2: and all of these women who previously had said like, 422 00:21:47,085 --> 00:21:48,525 Speaker 2: I don't think he's good looking enough for her, was. 423 00:21:48,525 --> 00:21:51,165 Speaker 1: Suddenly like, I want a man like that. You know, 424 00:21:51,645 --> 00:21:54,885 Speaker 1: my boyfriend as girls you know who seem. 425 00:21:54,725 --> 00:21:57,565 Speaker 2: To be frothing at the mouth at his shows, which 426 00:21:57,565 --> 00:22:00,485 Speaker 2: I'd like to see because he's a sensitive man, singing 427 00:22:00,525 --> 00:22:03,885 Speaker 2: beautiful songs. He's a very man, yeah, James like yeah, 428 00:22:04,085 --> 00:22:06,485 Speaker 2: but he's singing very emotionally intelligent songs, and he gives 429 00:22:06,525 --> 00:22:08,645 Speaker 2: emotionally intelligent interviews. 430 00:22:08,645 --> 00:22:11,085 Speaker 1: And when I see women lusting. 431 00:22:10,685 --> 00:22:15,405 Speaker 2: After him, it reassures me that, yes, that's what women want. 432 00:22:15,485 --> 00:22:19,045 Speaker 2: They want an emotionally available man. Look at Pedro Pascal, 433 00:22:19,125 --> 00:22:22,725 Speaker 2: look at Mark Ruffalo. Look at the men that Timothy Shalomy, 434 00:22:23,085 --> 00:22:25,885 Speaker 2: you know, like none of these men I like, these 435 00:22:25,965 --> 00:22:31,005 Speaker 2: toxic assholes on TikTok. We need to just stop even 436 00:22:31,365 --> 00:22:35,565 Speaker 2: mentioning their names and only bigging up and going nuts 437 00:22:35,645 --> 00:22:39,645 Speaker 2: for good men, kind men, secure men, like we have 438 00:22:39,725 --> 00:22:42,685 Speaker 2: to show men what's sexy rather than just always tell 439 00:22:42,685 --> 00:22:44,805 Speaker 2: them what's not sexy or what's not good or what 440 00:22:44,845 --> 00:22:47,445 Speaker 2: we don't like. Show them what you do, like that's 441 00:22:47,445 --> 00:22:50,565 Speaker 2: how they learn. I don't mean to sound patronizing, but 442 00:22:50,605 --> 00:22:51,365 Speaker 2: that's what I mean. 443 00:22:52,205 --> 00:22:54,445 Speaker 3: No, no, I know exactly what you mean. A girlfriend 444 00:22:54,485 --> 00:22:59,125 Speaker 3: of mine sid recently because we have these anti gene 445 00:22:59,165 --> 00:23:05,285 Speaker 3: did violence ads in Australia and they're so terrible they're laughable. 446 00:23:05,885 --> 00:23:09,085 Speaker 3: We shouldn't be laughable that they're terrible. But a girlfriend 447 00:23:09,085 --> 00:23:11,045 Speaker 3: of mine and said, just in passing, and she's not 448 00:23:11,125 --> 00:23:13,845 Speaker 3: someone who devotes a lot of time or space to 449 00:23:14,485 --> 00:23:19,165 Speaker 3: thinking about stuff like that. You know, she's busy, she goes. 450 00:23:19,365 --> 00:23:21,965 Speaker 3: Why don't they do a series of ads showing men 451 00:23:22,045 --> 00:23:25,965 Speaker 3: doing great things, like young boys helping their mum carrying 452 00:23:25,965 --> 00:23:30,245 Speaker 3: the shopping in from the car or yeah, you know, like. 453 00:23:30,205 --> 00:23:31,645 Speaker 1: That's what it was like in my day. 454 00:23:31,805 --> 00:23:34,285 Speaker 2: You know, I grew up you know, watching like men 455 00:23:34,445 --> 00:23:37,605 Speaker 2: open doors for women and looking after women and being 456 00:23:37,805 --> 00:23:40,565 Speaker 2: you know, st kind and wonderful. Matthew McConaughey was the 457 00:23:40,685 --> 00:23:42,845 Speaker 2: thing that we were going after. And there's been a 458 00:23:42,925 --> 00:23:45,885 Speaker 2: kind of death of yeah, and now there's like a 459 00:23:45,965 --> 00:23:48,645 Speaker 2: death of the rom com you know, it feels timely. 460 00:23:48,765 --> 00:23:51,725 Speaker 2: It's like we don't see men be romantic or kind 461 00:23:51,845 --> 00:23:54,085 Speaker 2: to women, or in love with women like music used 462 00:23:54,125 --> 00:23:56,965 Speaker 2: to be about men being devastated over the loss of 463 00:23:57,045 --> 00:23:58,445 Speaker 2: women or so in love with a woman that he 464 00:23:58,485 --> 00:24:03,205 Speaker 2: was losing his fucking mind. And that's kind of going away. 465 00:24:03,325 --> 00:24:07,045 Speaker 2: Now we're not really seeing that in our art anymore, 466 00:24:07,125 --> 00:24:09,525 Speaker 2: in in our media anymore. And I think that that's 467 00:24:09,165 --> 00:24:13,245 Speaker 2: so sad and so detrimental to our society. There's no 468 00:24:13,405 --> 00:24:16,845 Speaker 2: model for what boys should be. There's just men who 469 00:24:16,845 --> 00:24:20,165 Speaker 2: are looking at who look very successful. Right. Testosterone makes 470 00:24:20,205 --> 00:24:23,005 Speaker 2: men want to go out and conquer and acquire. Right, 471 00:24:23,045 --> 00:24:25,965 Speaker 2: we cannot relate to that same level of urge because 472 00:24:26,005 --> 00:24:28,565 Speaker 2: it's biological. So they're watching these men go out and 473 00:24:28,605 --> 00:24:31,325 Speaker 2: they're technically conquering and acquiring. These men don't seem very 474 00:24:31,325 --> 00:24:34,685 Speaker 2: mentally stable or particularly happy or have very fulfilling lives. 475 00:24:34,805 --> 00:24:37,085 Speaker 1: But they've got all the bits, all the stuff, you. 476 00:24:36,965 --> 00:24:40,045 Speaker 2: Know, the cars, the house, the money, the clothes. And 477 00:24:40,125 --> 00:24:44,165 Speaker 2: so what we need to do is create aspirational viewing 478 00:24:44,325 --> 00:24:46,805 Speaker 2: for men again, for men to see what we want. 479 00:24:46,965 --> 00:24:48,765 Speaker 2: All they're seeing is what we don't want. And I 480 00:24:48,765 --> 00:24:51,645 Speaker 2: think that that's a huge thing is create real role models, 481 00:24:52,365 --> 00:24:54,645 Speaker 2: really start to leverage role models. 482 00:24:54,685 --> 00:24:55,565 Speaker 1: Women can do it. 483 00:24:59,845 --> 00:25:02,605 Speaker 3: That of course, is not all of my conversation with 484 00:25:02,725 --> 00:25:06,765 Speaker 3: Jamila Jamil, And after this shortbreak we talk about all 485 00:25:06,805 --> 00:25:14,765 Speaker 3: the good stuff friendship, don't go anywhere. And if I 486 00:25:14,765 --> 00:25:16,805 Speaker 3: think about what you were just saying before, about how 487 00:25:16,845 --> 00:25:20,685 Speaker 3: you've changed your tone, reflected on your tone and how 488 00:25:20,725 --> 00:25:24,685 Speaker 3: it was actually divisive instead of inclusive or less likely 489 00:25:24,725 --> 00:25:28,045 Speaker 3: to elicit change, Yes, I think a lot of us 490 00:25:28,085 --> 00:25:30,565 Speaker 3: particularly it was a generational thing as well. I think 491 00:25:30,565 --> 00:25:34,245 Speaker 3: where that we were consumed by the rage. We need 492 00:25:34,245 --> 00:25:38,845 Speaker 3: to be cognizant of our own language in that because 493 00:25:38,845 --> 00:25:40,445 Speaker 3: that's how you become love. 494 00:25:40,565 --> 00:25:43,685 Speaker 2: Yeah, we can't be like menu trash, meno trash, meno trash. 495 00:25:43,725 --> 00:25:46,605 Speaker 2: We cannot keep going with this ship. There's miss andres 496 00:25:46,725 --> 00:25:49,245 Speaker 2: shit that's going on that I've been against from the 497 00:25:49,365 --> 00:25:53,125 Speaker 2: very start that I don't think I participated in too much, 498 00:25:53,965 --> 00:25:57,205 Speaker 2: because then, of course, why the fuck would teenage boys 499 00:25:57,805 --> 00:26:00,725 Speaker 2: side with us, Why would they think we're a welcoming 500 00:26:00,805 --> 00:26:02,725 Speaker 2: space to go to. All we do is just say 501 00:26:02,765 --> 00:26:06,245 Speaker 2: all they're seeing is us having open season on them. 502 00:26:06,325 --> 00:26:08,565 Speaker 2: They're not really supposed to say anything bad about us. 503 00:26:08,965 --> 00:26:11,925 Speaker 2: They were around for when we were oppressed. So they've 504 00:26:12,005 --> 00:26:15,685 Speaker 2: just seen Taylor Swift and Beyonce dominating, you know, the 505 00:26:15,805 --> 00:26:19,485 Speaker 2: music industry, and you know Angelina Joli or Scarlett Hanson 506 00:26:19,565 --> 00:26:22,165 Speaker 2: or whoever, you know, like the Bella Hadid, like all 507 00:26:22,205 --> 00:26:25,925 Speaker 2: these girls on top, women doing well in business, Karmla Harris, 508 00:26:25,965 --> 00:26:27,685 Speaker 2: maybe didn't win, but you've got very far, and you've 509 00:26:27,685 --> 00:26:29,845 Speaker 2: got female prime ministers now. And so they're just like 510 00:26:29,885 --> 00:26:33,205 Speaker 2: they're looking around thinking, well, I don't have context for 511 00:26:33,325 --> 00:26:36,085 Speaker 2: all of this rage. I'm fifteen and I'm being told 512 00:26:36,125 --> 00:26:38,885 Speaker 2: I'm not shit and I'm trash and that the most 513 00:26:38,925 --> 00:26:41,445 Speaker 2: embarrassing thing a woman can be is attracted to men. 514 00:26:42,005 --> 00:26:47,685 Speaker 2: And so of course this psychopad, you know, who seem 515 00:26:47,725 --> 00:26:50,325 Speaker 2: to have lots of nice money and fun and you know, 516 00:26:50,445 --> 00:26:52,605 Speaker 2: good times. A most cigars are telling me that I'm 517 00:26:52,645 --> 00:26:55,365 Speaker 2: worth something and I'm welcome and I'm safe with him. 518 00:26:55,565 --> 00:26:57,725 Speaker 2: I'm going to go towards him. These boys just kids, 519 00:26:57,845 --> 00:27:00,205 Speaker 2: just want to be safe. They don't feel safe with us. 520 00:27:00,765 --> 00:27:02,645 Speaker 2: If I was a teenage boy, I wouldn't be like, oh, 521 00:27:02,685 --> 00:27:04,445 Speaker 2: I'm going to go find a group of women to 522 00:27:04,525 --> 00:27:06,285 Speaker 2: hang out with. I'd be fucking terrified. 523 00:27:09,405 --> 00:27:09,965 Speaker 1: I mean I would be. 524 00:27:10,045 --> 00:27:12,245 Speaker 2: I would gravitate to He's the one who tells me 525 00:27:12,365 --> 00:27:14,645 Speaker 2: that I'm worth something and that he sees potential in me, 526 00:27:15,125 --> 00:27:17,845 Speaker 2: and that I'm going to be something someday and I'm important, 527 00:27:17,885 --> 00:27:20,645 Speaker 2: that my life is valid. And listen, I know that 528 00:27:20,725 --> 00:27:22,405 Speaker 2: this sounds like a lot of like, you know, woe 529 00:27:22,525 --> 00:27:25,005 Speaker 2: is boys, but woe is boys man Like they're dying 530 00:27:25,685 --> 00:27:29,245 Speaker 2: and they're hurting us, and so to heal them is 531 00:27:29,325 --> 00:27:33,765 Speaker 2: to heal all of us. But but but we've we've 532 00:27:33,965 --> 00:27:37,165 Speaker 2: got to pull them back in on side, and we've 533 00:27:37,205 --> 00:27:39,485 Speaker 2: got to look at whatever. You know, we've got to 534 00:27:39,645 --> 00:27:43,245 Speaker 2: find another way to process our age about the men 535 00:27:43,365 --> 00:27:46,725 Speaker 2: before so that we don't alienate the boys who are 536 00:27:46,765 --> 00:27:49,085 Speaker 2: coming up now because we need them. 537 00:27:49,165 --> 00:27:50,085 Speaker 1: They're our future. 538 00:27:50,965 --> 00:27:54,445 Speaker 3: Yes, And also it's that thing about them having to 539 00:27:54,525 --> 00:27:58,405 Speaker 3: pay the penalty for something that they really have no knowledge. 540 00:27:58,965 --> 00:28:00,965 Speaker 1: No, we saw this with the race conversation. 541 00:28:01,285 --> 00:28:05,525 Speaker 2: You know, it's just like, you know, we we mishandled 542 00:28:05,565 --> 00:28:07,805 Speaker 2: the race conversation, I think on the left, where it's like, 543 00:28:07,925 --> 00:28:11,285 Speaker 2: you know, we wanted people who currently exist with white 544 00:28:11,325 --> 00:28:14,605 Speaker 2: privilege to be you know, aware of the fact that 545 00:28:14,725 --> 00:28:17,805 Speaker 2: they benefit from the current system. But I think some 546 00:28:17,925 --> 00:28:20,125 Speaker 2: people took it too far and wanting to like punish 547 00:28:20,645 --> 00:28:25,325 Speaker 2: people whose ancestors, you know, were part of a much 548 00:28:25,405 --> 00:28:29,485 Speaker 2: more racially inequitable world. You know, it's like calling them 549 00:28:29,525 --> 00:28:32,605 Speaker 2: a virus, saying you know, you're inherently evil if you're 550 00:28:32,725 --> 00:28:34,965 Speaker 2: a white person. And it's like these fucking white kids 551 00:28:35,085 --> 00:28:37,365 Speaker 2: came up just being like, fuck, well, I haven't done 552 00:28:37,365 --> 00:28:40,005 Speaker 2: anything to anyone, and I'm I'm also poor, and I 553 00:28:40,245 --> 00:28:43,365 Speaker 2: don't know why I'm being held responsible for these actions 554 00:28:43,405 --> 00:28:45,605 Speaker 2: of people I never met and didn't know and I 555 00:28:45,645 --> 00:28:47,925 Speaker 2: don't share their politics, but I'm being blamed for it. 556 00:28:48,405 --> 00:28:50,885 Speaker 2: And so then they turned away from us because they 557 00:28:50,925 --> 00:28:52,485 Speaker 2: were like, fuck, I'm not safe with these people. They 558 00:28:52,525 --> 00:28:54,325 Speaker 2: think I'm a virus, they think I'm a disease, they 559 00:28:54,365 --> 00:28:56,925 Speaker 2: think I'm born inherently evil, and they went off. We 560 00:28:57,045 --> 00:28:58,845 Speaker 2: lost those boys. We can see it in all the 561 00:28:58,885 --> 00:29:02,045 Speaker 2: election results around the world. We lost all the people 562 00:29:02,205 --> 00:29:05,765 Speaker 2: that we labeled, and so we need to stop fucking 563 00:29:05,845 --> 00:29:07,805 Speaker 2: labeling each other and remember everyone is a product of 564 00:29:07,805 --> 00:29:12,685 Speaker 2: their fucking environment. We need to remember that ultimately, the 565 00:29:12,805 --> 00:29:15,245 Speaker 2: people who are true evil are at the very top 566 00:29:15,325 --> 00:29:18,045 Speaker 2: of all of these countries. It's corporations and it's some governments. 567 00:29:18,285 --> 00:29:20,525 Speaker 2: And we need to work together so that we all 568 00:29:20,685 --> 00:29:26,165 Speaker 2: have equity. Women, women and men working together in a 569 00:29:26,245 --> 00:29:29,765 Speaker 2: world always benefits the GDP, it benefits society. When we 570 00:29:29,845 --> 00:29:32,245 Speaker 2: take away women's rights, a company slides down its own 571 00:29:32,285 --> 00:29:33,005 Speaker 2: fucking asshole. 572 00:29:33,885 --> 00:29:37,005 Speaker 1: You know, it looks like shit, it. 573 00:29:37,045 --> 00:29:42,285 Speaker 2: Smells, it's bad, but there's no money. Everyone's fucking broke. 574 00:29:42,365 --> 00:29:46,045 Speaker 2: Everyone's miserable. People are killing themselves, children are getting like, 575 00:29:46,085 --> 00:29:47,165 Speaker 2: people are marrying. 576 00:29:46,965 --> 00:29:48,205 Speaker 1: Children off to grown men. 577 00:29:48,565 --> 00:29:48,605 Speaker 3: Like. 578 00:29:48,685 --> 00:29:50,725 Speaker 2: That's what happens to a society that takes away the 579 00:29:50,805 --> 00:29:53,845 Speaker 2: rights of women. They're thriving when women are in power. 580 00:29:54,085 --> 00:29:54,765 Speaker 1: They're fucked. 581 00:29:54,805 --> 00:29:57,645 Speaker 2: When women have are completely empowered, And so we need 582 00:29:57,725 --> 00:30:00,725 Speaker 2: to look at that and go, this isn't working for anyone. 583 00:30:01,165 --> 00:30:02,565 Speaker 1: This doesn't work for anyone. 584 00:30:03,085 --> 00:30:05,485 Speaker 2: For us to take away the liberties and rights and 585 00:30:05,525 --> 00:30:06,925 Speaker 2: the value entirely of women. 586 00:30:07,525 --> 00:30:10,245 Speaker 1: It makes women miserable, but it'll all so ultimately make 587 00:30:10,325 --> 00:30:11,085 Speaker 1: men miserable. 588 00:30:11,485 --> 00:30:13,445 Speaker 2: So we just need to find new ways of framing 589 00:30:13,525 --> 00:30:16,525 Speaker 2: things that actually make it appealing for men. You know, like, hey, 590 00:30:17,245 --> 00:30:18,965 Speaker 2: you don't want women to not be able to work 591 00:30:19,005 --> 00:30:20,445 Speaker 2: and then you have to go and do all the 592 00:30:20,525 --> 00:30:21,845 Speaker 2: work and then get to have no fun. 593 00:30:21,925 --> 00:30:22,925 Speaker 1: That sounds shit for you. 594 00:30:24,005 --> 00:30:28,085 Speaker 2: Let her do half the work. She's got perfectly capable. Also, 595 00:30:29,325 --> 00:30:33,365 Speaker 2: happy wife, happy life totally. And also women are fantastic 596 00:30:33,605 --> 00:30:35,965 Speaker 2: and when you're in a great relationship women one, it'll 597 00:30:36,005 --> 00:30:38,685 Speaker 2: make you better. The reason that single men die sooner 598 00:30:38,725 --> 00:30:40,405 Speaker 2: than married men is because a woman will get your 599 00:30:40,485 --> 00:30:43,885 Speaker 2: ass to the fucking doctor. She will love you and 600 00:30:44,685 --> 00:30:48,365 Speaker 2: cuddle you, and all that affection will settle your hormones 601 00:30:48,405 --> 00:30:50,645 Speaker 2: and be good for your health. Loneliness is now considered 602 00:30:50,685 --> 00:30:53,405 Speaker 2: a bigger killer than drinking or smoking. You know, they 603 00:30:53,445 --> 00:30:55,405 Speaker 2: are not benefiting, and not just by the way, not 604 00:30:55,525 --> 00:30:57,725 Speaker 2: just that. One of the saddest things in our society 605 00:30:57,805 --> 00:31:00,125 Speaker 2: is that we place no emphasis or importance on the 606 00:31:00,285 --> 00:31:03,365 Speaker 2: friendship of men and women. There's no movies about friends 607 00:31:03,405 --> 00:31:05,805 Speaker 2: who are men and women who don't end up shagging 608 00:31:06,005 --> 00:31:10,045 Speaker 2: at the end. There's no literature about great friends. There's 609 00:31:10,085 --> 00:31:12,645 Speaker 2: no great stories on the cover of a magazine about 610 00:31:12,645 --> 00:31:14,805 Speaker 2: a man and a woman who had a great idea 611 00:31:14,925 --> 00:31:17,565 Speaker 2: together and they built a company. It's always two women 612 00:31:17,925 --> 00:31:18,085 Speaker 2: or a. 613 00:31:18,085 --> 00:31:20,045 Speaker 1: Bunch of men. Do you know what I mean? We 614 00:31:20,165 --> 00:31:22,045 Speaker 1: don't ever say anything's important. 615 00:31:22,125 --> 00:31:24,605 Speaker 2: So part of the male insecurity that I think we're seeing, 616 00:31:24,885 --> 00:31:26,565 Speaker 2: And I talked about this in the speech I gave 617 00:31:26,685 --> 00:31:29,765 Speaker 2: in twenty eighteen called Tell Him, which is that they 618 00:31:29,885 --> 00:31:32,885 Speaker 2: think that all they're good for is their seed, because 619 00:31:32,885 --> 00:31:36,485 Speaker 2: there's no importance in this world in media of men 620 00:31:36,565 --> 00:31:39,205 Speaker 2: and women beyond romantic relationships, whereas actually some of my 621 00:31:39,285 --> 00:31:41,685 Speaker 2: most meaningful relationships are with men that have nothing to 622 00:31:41,765 --> 00:31:44,845 Speaker 2: do with sex. We have no romantic chemistry whatsoever. And 623 00:31:44,885 --> 00:31:47,645 Speaker 2: they're my collaborators, they're my best friends, they're my ride 624 00:31:47,725 --> 00:31:48,205 Speaker 2: or dies. 625 00:31:49,165 --> 00:31:52,085 Speaker 1: Hey do you still live in a shaer house? Only 626 00:31:52,325 --> 00:31:57,125 Speaker 1: just stopped. But we're planning a share commune, Oh, which 627 00:31:57,165 --> 00:32:01,565 Speaker 1: is exciting. Yeah yeah, yeah, and visit with the name Jamilville. 628 00:32:02,125 --> 00:32:05,285 Speaker 1: So it's a cult. It is a cult. But that 629 00:32:05,405 --> 00:32:08,165 Speaker 1: was great. This is the call you boys. Yeah, yeah, 630 00:32:08,165 --> 00:32:10,005 Speaker 1: that would be me. That would be obviously, I have 631 00:32:10,085 --> 00:32:13,085 Speaker 1: the hair of a cult leader. You sure do, I do? 632 00:32:13,525 --> 00:32:18,005 Speaker 2: I do. I have the hair, and I have the confident, 633 00:32:18,125 --> 00:32:20,685 Speaker 2: speaking vibe of a cult leader. So come join anytime 634 00:32:20,725 --> 00:32:21,725 Speaker 2: you're invited. 635 00:32:21,845 --> 00:32:24,285 Speaker 3: Cat White, I'm assuming this will be part of the 636 00:32:24,365 --> 00:32:25,085 Speaker 3: silly chat. 637 00:32:27,965 --> 00:32:32,805 Speaker 1: Serious, I'm so so serious right now? Good? 638 00:32:33,405 --> 00:32:35,445 Speaker 2: But yeah, anyway, Look, this is These are some of 639 00:32:35,485 --> 00:32:36,965 Speaker 2: the things that I think is that I think that 640 00:32:37,645 --> 00:32:39,445 Speaker 2: media has something to answer for. 641 00:32:39,765 --> 00:32:42,365 Speaker 1: I think those of us who are older have something 642 00:32:42,405 --> 00:32:42,925 Speaker 1: to answer for. 643 00:32:43,365 --> 00:32:45,805 Speaker 2: I believe, I have hope that we can turn this 644 00:32:45,885 --> 00:32:48,565 Speaker 2: shit around. But if we don't do it now, we 645 00:32:48,685 --> 00:32:51,725 Speaker 2: are going to run out of an opportunity. The opportunity 646 00:32:51,805 --> 00:32:54,885 Speaker 2: is slipping through our fingers. Fascism is rising, Conservatism is rising. 647 00:32:55,365 --> 00:32:58,685 Speaker 2: Social media is extraordinary at dividing us. We have to 648 00:32:58,725 --> 00:33:02,005 Speaker 2: be having these conversations in person with each other. We 649 00:33:02,165 --> 00:33:05,285 Speaker 2: have to bring men and women together as allies and 650 00:33:05,405 --> 00:33:08,845 Speaker 2: recognize that we are all fucked right now and no 651 00:33:08,965 --> 00:33:11,885 Speaker 2: one doing well or happy, and the only way to 652 00:33:11,965 --> 00:33:14,605 Speaker 2: get out of this is with one another. We've all 653 00:33:14,685 --> 00:33:17,965 Speaker 2: got very different skills and we need to work together 654 00:33:18,445 --> 00:33:23,925 Speaker 2: to build a completely, a completely possible utopia. Remember that 655 00:33:24,005 --> 00:33:26,125 Speaker 2: One of the main reasons that women get targeted around 656 00:33:26,125 --> 00:33:27,685 Speaker 2: their looks all the time is not just a week 657 00:33:27,685 --> 00:33:30,485 Speaker 2: and then distract them, but it's also because women eighty 658 00:33:30,525 --> 00:33:33,845 Speaker 2: percent of the market, we're consumers, so so much of 659 00:33:33,885 --> 00:33:37,725 Speaker 2: the toxicity we're ingesting it is really just to make 660 00:33:37,805 --> 00:33:39,845 Speaker 2: us go out and buy stuff, because if we hate ourselves, 661 00:33:39,885 --> 00:33:41,525 Speaker 2: we're more likely to go out and buy things to 662 00:33:41,605 --> 00:33:44,805 Speaker 2: fix ourselves because we've been convinced we're broken. We're living 663 00:33:44,845 --> 00:33:49,525 Speaker 2: in a fucked system, and we have the power now 664 00:33:51,085 --> 00:33:53,565 Speaker 2: to stop it and to fix it. You know, you've 665 00:33:53,645 --> 00:33:55,725 Speaker 2: talked a lot about your mental health in the past. 666 00:33:55,885 --> 00:34:01,725 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, is it showing actually, but in a stunning way, 667 00:34:02,445 --> 00:34:03,205 Speaker 2: in a. 668 00:34:03,605 --> 00:34:10,005 Speaker 3: In a great ways, as you've found your voice, and 669 00:34:10,165 --> 00:34:14,925 Speaker 3: it's really it's like someone sitting flame to an oxy 670 00:34:15,085 --> 00:34:15,805 Speaker 3: tort if. 671 00:34:15,685 --> 00:34:19,925 Speaker 1: You know what I mean. It's just it's got it's 672 00:34:20,045 --> 00:34:22,725 Speaker 1: just so so strong and beautiful. 673 00:34:23,485 --> 00:34:28,365 Speaker 3: Has the liberation of yourself made a difference to your 674 00:34:28,485 --> 00:34:32,245 Speaker 3: mental health and your recovery and you're navigating that. 675 00:34:33,125 --> 00:34:36,725 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, of course, speaking our minds can only lead 676 00:34:36,805 --> 00:34:39,805 Speaker 2: to freedom. And you know, so many of women's autoimmune 677 00:34:39,845 --> 00:34:42,925 Speaker 2: diseases have now been linked to the fact that we 678 00:34:43,085 --> 00:34:45,405 Speaker 2: repress so much of our emotions. So the less repressed 679 00:34:45,445 --> 00:34:48,165 Speaker 2: I am, the happier and healthier I am, of course, 680 00:34:48,685 --> 00:34:50,645 Speaker 2: and the more authentic I am, and the more authentic 681 00:34:50,725 --> 00:34:52,365 Speaker 2: I am, the more likely I am to meet people 682 00:34:52,445 --> 00:34:54,965 Speaker 2: that I actually really resonate with, and then I become 683 00:34:55,005 --> 00:34:57,805 Speaker 2: close friends with those people, and then that resolves my loneliness. 684 00:34:58,205 --> 00:35:02,205 Speaker 1: And so it's a wonderful domino effect when you. 685 00:35:02,245 --> 00:35:04,405 Speaker 2: Start to become yourself, and when you give yourself permission 686 00:35:04,485 --> 00:35:06,285 Speaker 2: to fuck up and say the wrong thing and rub 687 00:35:06,325 --> 00:35:08,645 Speaker 2: people out the wrong way sometimes and know that you're 688 00:35:08,685 --> 00:35:10,365 Speaker 2: not going to be every cup of tea. The biggest 689 00:35:10,405 --> 00:35:12,445 Speaker 2: lie that women are told is that you are expected 690 00:35:12,525 --> 00:35:15,605 Speaker 2: to or can ever be everyone's cup of tea. It's 691 00:35:15,765 --> 00:35:18,525 Speaker 2: not possible. We are human beings who have different tastes. 692 00:35:19,005 --> 00:35:20,685 Speaker 2: And it's so funny that I grew up my whole 693 00:35:20,765 --> 00:35:24,125 Speaker 2: life really not liking almost anyone, but hoping everyone would 694 00:35:24,205 --> 00:35:24,405 Speaker 2: like me. 695 00:35:26,285 --> 00:35:30,045 Speaker 1: Are ridiculous? Is that it's so true that. 696 00:35:31,525 --> 00:35:35,125 Speaker 3: If you live in the public sphere and you know 697 00:35:35,325 --> 00:35:39,525 Speaker 3: that that one, you know, arrow can do more than 698 00:35:39,605 --> 00:35:44,125 Speaker 3: a thousand bouquets. Yeah, yeah, And why do we crave 699 00:35:44,405 --> 00:35:47,405 Speaker 3: the approval of people who will never approve of us, 700 00:35:47,685 --> 00:35:49,165 Speaker 3: very likely because they've already decided. 701 00:35:49,205 --> 00:35:51,685 Speaker 2: Women are told that that's the most important thing about 702 00:35:51,685 --> 00:35:53,845 Speaker 2: our existence on this earth is just to be palatable 703 00:35:53,885 --> 00:35:54,325 Speaker 2: in every way. 704 00:35:54,405 --> 00:35:55,645 Speaker 1: Don't take up too much space. 705 00:35:55,885 --> 00:35:59,965 Speaker 2: Just smile, be pretty, look skinny, make everyone else's lives 706 00:36:00,005 --> 00:36:03,645 Speaker 2: more comfortable, you know, and then die. 707 00:36:04,005 --> 00:36:08,085 Speaker 1: But don't look old when you do. Well, you know what, 708 00:36:08,565 --> 00:36:11,445 Speaker 1: Jamila jimil Well you do look pretty. Oh that's very kind. 709 00:36:11,485 --> 00:36:14,765 Speaker 1: So do you look you've checked one of those buttes. Well, 710 00:36:14,845 --> 00:36:15,285 Speaker 1: that's good. 711 00:36:15,365 --> 00:36:17,565 Speaker 2: I've been obedient to the patriarchy today. 712 00:36:18,045 --> 00:36:19,005 Speaker 1: There's my hope. 713 00:36:19,045 --> 00:36:19,445 Speaker 2: I get my. 714 00:36:21,045 --> 00:36:21,445 Speaker 1: Cookie. 715 00:36:23,485 --> 00:36:25,445 Speaker 2: But yeah, I think I've just set myself free and 716 00:36:25,485 --> 00:36:28,325 Speaker 2: I've just learned gross self acceptance. And I'm sure part 717 00:36:28,365 --> 00:36:29,765 Speaker 2: of that is the fact that I'm you know, I'm 718 00:36:29,845 --> 00:36:34,325 Speaker 2: fourteen in like ten months, and the greatest gift of 719 00:36:34,445 --> 00:36:36,965 Speaker 2: getting older is realizing that, oh, it's all a scam. 720 00:36:37,245 --> 00:36:40,085 Speaker 2: Everything's a scam. Every beauty standard you were ever given 721 00:36:40,205 --> 00:36:43,045 Speaker 2: was a scam. It was part of an ever changing 722 00:36:43,125 --> 00:36:45,485 Speaker 2: loop that's just going to come back around again. It'll 723 00:36:45,525 --> 00:36:47,485 Speaker 2: be fat and thin, and fat and thin, then fat 724 00:36:47,525 --> 00:36:49,445 Speaker 2: and thin old than young, and you know, like, oh, 725 00:36:49,925 --> 00:36:52,045 Speaker 2: it's all become so exhausting and so silly to me. 726 00:36:52,485 --> 00:36:53,965 Speaker 1: And so I love being older. 727 00:36:54,125 --> 00:36:56,445 Speaker 2: I love every year I get further away from my 728 00:36:56,605 --> 00:36:59,125 Speaker 2: fucking twenties, so I can really actually. 729 00:36:59,005 --> 00:37:01,885 Speaker 1: Enjoy all of this and see that. Oh what was 730 00:37:01,925 --> 00:37:03,365 Speaker 1: I worried about all those years? 731 00:37:03,445 --> 00:37:05,845 Speaker 2: Why was I trying to placate myself and mold myself 732 00:37:05,925 --> 00:37:10,645 Speaker 2: and shape myself and drain myself for a few and 733 00:37:10,805 --> 00:37:13,365 Speaker 2: secure men when actually the world is full of lots 734 00:37:13,405 --> 00:37:14,605 Speaker 2: of men who don't. 735 00:37:14,445 --> 00:37:19,965 Speaker 3: Care about any of this shit. Jamila Jamil, cannot wait 736 00:37:20,085 --> 00:37:23,525 Speaker 3: for this and more. Thank you when we see you 737 00:37:23,685 --> 00:37:24,565 Speaker 3: on our shores. 738 00:37:24,805 --> 00:37:27,725 Speaker 2: Oh, I can't get that fast enough, honestly, thanks for 739 00:37:27,845 --> 00:37:30,085 Speaker 2: joining us on No Filter. I had such a great time. 740 00:37:30,285 --> 00:37:33,405 Speaker 2: Thank you, and thanks for showing yourself pleasure. It sounds 741 00:37:33,405 --> 00:37:35,005 Speaker 2: like I've got my tits out on the podcast. 742 00:37:35,445 --> 00:37:42,565 Speaker 1: Hello. What a titan she is. 743 00:37:43,565 --> 00:37:48,205 Speaker 3: What a great mixture of humor and strength and savvy 744 00:37:48,285 --> 00:37:51,885 Speaker 3: and assiness. I'm talking about Jamila Jamil, by the way, 745 00:37:52,805 --> 00:37:55,445 Speaker 3: and lucky for us, she will be in Australia next 746 00:37:55,525 --> 00:37:58,085 Speaker 3: week touring the country. So if you want to go 747 00:37:58,405 --> 00:38:02,245 Speaker 3: and see her in the glorious flesh, there's a link 748 00:38:02,325 --> 00:38:03,445 Speaker 3: to where you can get tickets. 749 00:38:03,485 --> 00:38:06,365 Speaker 1: In the show notes, the executive. 750 00:38:05,925 --> 00:38:10,125 Speaker 3: Producer of No Filter is Naima Brown, Senior producer Grace Rouvre. 751 00:38:10,765 --> 00:38:14,685 Speaker 3: Sound design is by Jacob Brown and I am your host, 752 00:38:15,045 --> 00:38:17,725 Speaker 3: Kate lane Brook. Back with you next week.