WEBVTT - Meet The Renowned Australian Prosecutor With A Target On Her Back 0:00:11.502 --> 0:00:16.142 You're listing to a Mumma Mea podcast. Mamma Mea acknowledges 0:00:16.222 --> 0:00:19.662 the traditional owners of land and waterers. This podcast was 0:00:19.702 --> 0:00:27.302 recorded on it's early August in Sydney in the year 0:00:27.302 --> 0:00:30.222 two thousand and the city is gearing up to host 0:00:30.262 --> 0:00:34.702 the Olympics. Two year twelve girls aged seventeen and eighteen 0:00:34.742 --> 0:00:37.262 are at Chatswood shopping center chatting to a group of 0:00:37.262 --> 0:00:41.222 teenage boys. They're offered a lift home, so they accept. 0:00:41.862 --> 0:00:45.822 Hopping into a white van with the group, they're taken 0:00:45.822 --> 0:00:51.462 to Greenacre in the city's west, where they're slacked, threatened, pushed, 0:00:51.542 --> 0:00:56.462 and raped by a total of eight males. Two days later, 0:00:56.582 --> 0:00:59.742 the group strikes again, giving a sixteen year old girl 0:00:59.782 --> 0:01:02.422 a lift into the city. Taken to a park and 0:01:02.502 --> 0:01:06.582 ambushed by a group of fourteen the teenager is raped 0:01:06.622 --> 0:01:09.502 by two of them while the others watch on and laugh. 0:01:11.342 --> 0:01:14.422 On August thirty, an eighteen year old woman is approached 0:01:14.422 --> 0:01:18.222 by the group on a train to Bankstown. She's persuaded 0:01:18.262 --> 0:01:21.102 to get off with them, tricked into entering a public toilet, 0:01:21.702 --> 0:01:25.262 and raped over and over. Both there and in two 0:01:25.302 --> 0:01:30.382 other locations. She's sexually assaulted by fourteen men and boys 0:01:30.422 --> 0:01:34.742 in total over the course of six terrifying hours. As 0:01:34.742 --> 0:01:38.182 a final humiliation, they hose her down and throw her 0:01:38.222 --> 0:01:42.382 into the street near a train station. In early September, 0:01:42.902 --> 0:01:45.262 two sixteen year old girls are picked up from another 0:01:45.342 --> 0:01:49.542 railway station in the city's southwest. They're repeatedly raped by 0:01:49.622 --> 0:01:55.022 three males over a period of five hours. This series 0:01:55.062 --> 0:01:58.542 of horrific crimes becomes known as the Scaff Gang rapes, 0:01:58.982 --> 0:02:02.862 named after the gang's ringleaders, brothers Bellal and Muhammad Scaff. 0:02:03.822 --> 0:02:06.742 The magnitude of the horror they subjected their victims to 0:02:06.862 --> 0:02:09.542 left our country in a state of shock and outrage, 0:02:09.902 --> 0:02:12.462 with a judge which describing the offenses as events that 0:02:12.502 --> 0:02:15.582 you hear about or read about only in the context 0:02:15.662 --> 0:02:20.902 of wartime atrocities. The group, aged between sixteen and twenty, 0:02:21.582 --> 0:02:24.862 consisted of up to fourteen boys and men, but only 0:02:24.982 --> 0:02:28.302 nine were convicted, sentenced to a total of more than 0:02:28.342 --> 0:02:32.422 two hundred and forty years in prison. Only one of 0:02:32.462 --> 0:02:42.582 them remains behind bars. I'm Jemma Bath and This is 0:02:42.622 --> 0:02:46.822 True Crime Conversations Amoma mea podcast exploring the world's most 0:02:46.862 --> 0:02:49.822 notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know the 0:02:49.862 --> 0:02:53.902 most about them. Our guest today led the prosecution of 0:02:53.942 --> 0:02:58.302 the two thousand Scaff gang rapes. Margaret Kneen sc has 0:02:58.382 --> 0:03:01.502 enjoyed a long career as a Crown Prosecutor and Deputy 0:03:01.582 --> 0:03:05.742 Senior Crown Prosecutor, leading hundreds of judge only and jury 0:03:05.782 --> 0:03:08.942 criminal trials and appeals in the New South Wales Court 0:03:09.022 --> 0:03:12.782 of Criminal Appeal and High Court of Australia. She's recorded 0:03:12.822 --> 0:03:16.262 a long succession of convictions against rapists and murderers, including 0:03:16.302 --> 0:03:19.982 the butcher of Beager and pedophile Robert Dolly Dunn, and 0:03:20.062 --> 0:03:22.982 has served as Commissioner of the New South Wales Special 0:03:22.982 --> 0:03:26.622 Commission of Inquiry into matters relating to the police investigation 0:03:26.742 --> 0:03:30.502 of certain child sexual abuse allegations in the Roman Catholic 0:03:30.582 --> 0:03:34.502 Diocese of Maitland Newcastle. She's had her fair share of 0:03:34.582 --> 0:03:38.102 controversy too. At the end of twenty fourteen, she was 0:03:38.142 --> 0:03:41.822 investigated by the New South Wales EYEKAC, who were pursuing 0:03:41.862 --> 0:03:45.702 her for corrupt conduct. She was accused of perverting the 0:03:45.742 --> 0:03:49.342 course of justice for advising her son's girlfriend to fake 0:03:49.542 --> 0:03:52.662 chest pains to avoid a breath test after a car crash. 0:03:53.142 --> 0:03:56.422 She was fully exonerated and her involvement in the inquiry 0:03:56.462 --> 0:04:00.862 at all was revealed to be a big misunderstanding. Retiring 0:04:00.942 --> 0:04:04.742 from public office in twenty nineteen, Margaret embarked on a 0:04:04.782 --> 0:04:08.942 brand new chapter, doing the complete professional opposite of what 0:04:09.022 --> 0:04:13.342 she's done for so long, defending the accused instead of 0:04:13.382 --> 0:04:17.182 prosecuting them. Her career is outlined in a chronicle called 0:04:17.182 --> 0:04:20.902 The Boxing Butterfly, which explores some of her biggest cases 0:04:20.942 --> 0:04:26.662 and moments. Margaret joins us, now, Margaret, you've had a 0:04:26.782 --> 0:04:31.542 very big career. Do you have a proudest moment? Is 0:04:31.542 --> 0:04:35.062 that something you're even able to do with so many achievements. 0:04:35.702 --> 0:04:39.262 I do have one, and it's fairly recent, and it's 0:04:39.302 --> 0:04:42.822 in my time as defense counsel. Because my career is 0:04:42.902 --> 0:04:46.022 now forty eight years old at the end of this year, 0:04:46.062 --> 0:04:49.302 forty eight years of full time work. My goodness, no wonder, 0:04:49.942 --> 0:04:52.662 no wonder, I feel tired. The big moment for me, 0:04:52.982 --> 0:04:57.662 the biggest achievement was winning a case that perhaps most 0:04:57.702 --> 0:05:01.822 people wouldn't have seen the success in. And it's the 0:05:01.862 --> 0:05:05.622 case of Coulwynda Singh, who was charged with burning his 0:05:05.702 --> 0:05:10.062 wife to death. And I sensed very much a bit 0:05:10.102 --> 0:05:13.742 of a racist persecution going on and even that the 0:05:13.742 --> 0:05:16.102 Crown was going to get an expert to say that 0:05:16.182 --> 0:05:20.622 Indian men burn their wives and on her short list 0:05:20.742 --> 0:05:23.222 to prove that this expert, who had never been to India, 0:05:23.262 --> 0:05:26.182 by the way, she already had mister Singh's name on it, 0:05:26.622 --> 0:05:29.902 and he hadn't been convicted. And as it happened, there 0:05:30.022 --> 0:05:33.062 was plenty of evidence in that case, plenty of forensic evidence, 0:05:33.102 --> 0:05:37.302 and it all pointed to the deceased woman having set 0:05:37.302 --> 0:05:40.222 her self on fire, but not to burn herself. It 0:05:40.302 --> 0:05:43.182 was a mistake. She used petrol instead of kerosene. She'd 0:05:43.222 --> 0:05:45.782 prepared herself, she'd put a hair up that she usually 0:05:45.822 --> 0:05:49.102 had down in a wet towel. She prepared everything, and 0:05:49.142 --> 0:05:51.862 hers were the only fingerprints in DNA on the petrol 0:05:51.942 --> 0:05:55.502 can and on the lighter. But poor mister Singh, who 0:05:55.622 --> 0:05:58.502 is who I could faithfully say to the jury, has 0:05:58.582 --> 0:06:02.462 never had a drink, smoke, gambled, didn't have anyone on 0:06:02.542 --> 0:06:05.862 the side, so to speak, never been to a brothel, casino, nothing, 0:06:05.942 --> 0:06:09.102 Just a hard working guy with a lovely family. It 0:06:09.222 --> 0:06:12.182 wasn't him, but he was. He was treated so badly 0:06:12.262 --> 0:06:15.222 by everyone who assumed it must have been well that 0:06:15.302 --> 0:06:18.622 he did it to her. So it was hard won 0:06:18.822 --> 0:06:22.382 victory because the first trial was conducted in a way 0:06:22.422 --> 0:06:26.182 which wasn't allowed the second time by the prosecution desperate 0:06:26.262 --> 0:06:29.582 for a conviction and breaking it up. Well, even if 0:06:29.902 --> 0:06:32.542 she did it, you forced her to and all these 0:06:32.582 --> 0:06:36.502 different permutations. But finally, and that was a hung jury. 0:06:36.542 --> 0:06:38.942 The second time, we were able to keep the crown 0:06:38.982 --> 0:06:42.542 to admissible evidence and the jury very quickly came back 0:06:42.542 --> 0:06:45.622 with a not guilty verdict. But he spent a lot 0:06:45.662 --> 0:06:48.022 of his own money, he did four months in jail, 0:06:48.622 --> 0:06:52.022 and he's just suffered so much. And it just shows 0:06:52.062 --> 0:06:55.822 that investigators ought not to jump to conclusions and that 0:06:55.862 --> 0:06:59.102 the legal process testing all the evidence is there for 0:06:59.222 --> 0:06:59.902 a good reason. 0:07:00.702 --> 0:07:03.822 It's interesting that you pick a proudest moment from your 0:07:03.942 --> 0:07:06.142 I'm going to call it second act, because you spent 0:07:06.302 --> 0:07:10.782 so much time on the other side prosecuting cases. What 0:07:10.822 --> 0:07:13.982 has it been like spending the last few years in defense? 0:07:14.062 --> 0:07:16.782 Yes, six years now. I didn't know whether anyone would 0:07:16.782 --> 0:07:21.222 brief me. I left the Crown at sixty and thought, well, 0:07:21.342 --> 0:07:24.262 that's the sort of where the super comes to a 0:07:24.302 --> 0:07:26.662 sort of stop. So let's see what it's like. Will 0:07:26.702 --> 0:07:29.702 anyone brief me, But I didn't get any briefs from 0:07:30.102 --> 0:07:35.222 the prosecution none, And so I was briefed by many 0:07:35.262 --> 0:07:39.102 different defense solicitors, most of whom I'd never worked with. 0:07:39.262 --> 0:07:44.062 But there's just so much work, and I'm still turning 0:07:44.062 --> 0:07:47.862 it away and booked out well towards the end of 0:07:47.942 --> 0:07:52.182 next year. So it's true that I did some wonderful 0:07:52.502 --> 0:07:56.542 cases as a Crown prosecutor, and I'm still in contact 0:07:56.622 --> 0:08:01.822 with dozens of families, especially bereaved parents of children who 0:08:01.822 --> 0:08:05.862 were killed, such as Lindsay van Blanken, whose body was 0:08:05.862 --> 0:08:08.982 found in a cricket bag. I'm still friends with her 0:08:09.062 --> 0:08:12.782 mum and her sister. But in a sense, Jemma, I've 0:08:12.822 --> 0:08:15.382 got to say that it's a bit more of a 0:08:15.502 --> 0:08:22.422 challenge on the defense side. It's generally more straightforward on 0:08:22.502 --> 0:08:26.222 the prosecution side. If you're on the correct side, and 0:08:26.262 --> 0:08:29.262 you should be by the time a trial gets up, 0:08:29.622 --> 0:08:33.262 the Crown prosecutor should be very confident of the evidence 0:08:33.942 --> 0:08:36.542 and very confident of the way the matter should go 0:08:37.182 --> 0:08:40.182 by having made sure that it's all been tested to 0:08:40.222 --> 0:08:45.262 some degree and everything checked before someone is put on trial. 0:08:45.822 --> 0:08:48.542 But from the defense point of view, being against the 0:08:49.702 --> 0:08:56.622 zeitgeist against the publicity and the tendency now it seems 0:08:56.662 --> 0:08:59.782 to me for people to make up their mind before 0:08:59.822 --> 0:09:04.102 someone is convicted, and so that's a very negative influence 0:09:04.302 --> 0:09:07.902 carrying through the trial. And it's very hard for people, 0:09:08.022 --> 0:09:10.222 especially people in the public eye, who get put on 0:09:11.462 --> 0:09:14.302 because so often it's as though they've already been convicted 0:09:14.422 --> 0:09:18.542 just when they're charged, and people forget that as they 0:09:18.582 --> 0:09:21.022 would want if they were charged, they'd want the evidence 0:09:21.062 --> 0:09:23.342 to be tested and proved beyond reasonable doubt. 0:09:23.822 --> 0:09:25.342 Everyone is innocent until they're not. 0:09:25.662 --> 0:09:25.982 Yes. 0:09:26.302 --> 0:09:27.702 So is that a welcome challenge for you? 0:09:28.302 --> 0:09:31.542 Well, I was daunted by it and thought it might 0:09:31.582 --> 0:09:35.182 be difficult to change because I used to be criticized 0:09:35.182 --> 0:09:37.382 a lot for this. I get very close to the 0:09:37.422 --> 0:09:40.462 people I work with, and I was criticized very much, 0:09:40.902 --> 0:09:44.262 and I think, perhaps in a somewhat sexist fashion for 0:09:44.342 --> 0:09:49.662 decades for being just affectionate with young women who'd been 0:09:49.982 --> 0:09:53.582 terribly assaulted or parents who'd lost a child. And I 0:09:53.702 --> 0:09:56.022 warmed to those people and thought it would be easier 0:09:56.062 --> 0:09:59.302 for them if they knew how much it meant to 0:09:59.382 --> 0:10:03.062 me for them to get justice. And so I've been 0:10:03.302 --> 0:10:08.542 criticized for hugging people and having my arm around people 0:10:08.622 --> 0:10:12.142 and so forth, showing oh that's it, yes, Oh, yes, 0:10:12.182 --> 0:10:14.702 we must have none of us be kind. Yes, that's right, 0:10:14.822 --> 0:10:18.302 even if we were you know, mothers and grandmothers and in. 0:10:18.262 --> 0:10:19.462 The worst moments of their lives. 0:10:19.542 --> 0:10:22.062 Yes, it is the worst moment of anyone's life to 0:10:22.102 --> 0:10:25.222 go through a court process, and the more serious the 0:10:25.302 --> 0:10:29.582 case that the worse it is for all parties. And 0:10:29.662 --> 0:10:32.542 so you can see that people need kindness. But then 0:10:32.742 --> 0:10:35.342 when I was a prosecutor and I saw a woman 0:10:36.102 --> 0:10:38.222 just quietly crying, and I knew it was the mother 0:10:38.342 --> 0:10:42.062 of the man who had just been convicted of murder. 0:10:42.382 --> 0:10:44.382 And I saw her crying there, and she was a mum, 0:10:44.422 --> 0:10:47.142 and I just I asked the defense counsel could I 0:10:47.222 --> 0:10:49.742 just go and see her? And I ended up holding 0:10:49.782 --> 0:10:53.142 her and hugging her because no one else was. So 0:10:53.382 --> 0:10:57.822 we have to have humanity in our justice system, because 0:10:57.862 --> 0:11:00.142 it's very, very much a part of it. It's not 0:11:00.662 --> 0:11:05.662 it's not a mathematical calculation. It's even the determination of 0:11:05.702 --> 0:11:08.822 these cases has so much it relies on so much 0:11:08.902 --> 0:11:10.662 knowledge of human nature, and. 0:11:10.862 --> 0:11:13.982 Court is scary if you haven't been in one. I've 0:11:13.982 --> 0:11:17.102 covered them as a court reporter. They're really intimidating places. 0:11:17.222 --> 0:11:19.982 And so these families have often never set foot in 0:11:20.062 --> 0:11:23.702 a court before, and suddenly there's judges, there's prosecutors, there's defense, 0:11:23.742 --> 0:11:26.662 there's criminals, and it's very overwhelming. 0:11:26.222 --> 0:11:29.902 Yes, in a bit of an arcane language too, perhaps 0:11:29.942 --> 0:11:33.582 deliberately set so that people don't quite know what's going on. 0:11:33.822 --> 0:11:33.902 Ye. 0:11:34.142 --> 0:11:38.342 And the intimidation is deliberate too, to try to scare 0:11:38.342 --> 0:11:40.542 people into telling the truth. I don't know if it 0:11:40.622 --> 0:11:43.902 really works like that anymore. That, like many other of 0:11:43.942 --> 0:11:47.222 the trappings of the criminal justice system, have changed a 0:11:47.262 --> 0:11:51.102 lot in the forty odd years I've been in it. 0:11:51.102 --> 0:11:52.942 It's probably a good segue to bring me to a 0:11:52.982 --> 0:11:55.062 sentence in your book that really stood out to me 0:11:55.302 --> 0:11:57.982 right at the start in the introduction, and it said, 0:11:58.622 --> 0:12:02.102 she has been trenchantly attacked by some colleagues in the profession. 0:12:02.462 --> 0:12:06.182 Perhaps they mistook her niceness for weakness. It was an 0:12:06.182 --> 0:12:10.582 observation by your co author. What would you say to that, 0:12:10.702 --> 0:12:12.862 because that kind of speaks to what you've just been 0:12:12.902 --> 0:12:16.302 saying about people looking at you showing empathy and kindness 0:12:16.542 --> 0:12:19.622 and positive emotion as a weakness. 0:12:19.302 --> 0:12:22.542 For a few decades. I think it was ago I 0:12:22.702 --> 0:12:26.662 noticed that people thought that if you're quite pleasant and 0:12:26.942 --> 0:12:29.822 polite with people and nice to people, polite with the 0:12:29.862 --> 0:12:32.942 other side, you can't be taking it seriously enough. You've 0:12:32.942 --> 0:12:36.982 got to walk in there with a stern look and 0:12:37.302 --> 0:12:39.222 don't get too close to people, and be a bit 0:12:39.262 --> 0:12:43.422 of an object rather than a person. But well, I've 0:12:43.502 --> 0:12:46.622 just continued to do it my way, and if people 0:12:46.622 --> 0:12:49.142 don't like it, well, many of the people who don't 0:12:49.222 --> 0:12:52.342 like it aren't there anymore, so it doesn't matter, and you've. 0:12:52.222 --> 0:12:57.022 Got your achievements to show. You have spoken before about 0:12:57.022 --> 0:13:01.342 your own experience of sexual abuse in your childhood. Did 0:13:01.342 --> 0:13:05.182 that help to inform your why when you entered this career, 0:13:05.222 --> 0:13:08.222 And also, I guess the empathy that you. 0:13:08.222 --> 0:13:11.102 Have it certainly did infor me, because because I knew 0:13:11.222 --> 0:13:14.342 very well from when I first started working in the 0:13:14.382 --> 0:13:17.582 prosecution of child sexual assault in the nineteen eighties, I 0:13:17.622 --> 0:13:21.222 knew things that other people who only had a theoretical 0:13:21.262 --> 0:13:24.662 knowledge didn't appreciate. And one of the main things is 0:13:24.662 --> 0:13:29.062 how child sexual abuse can happen virtually under the noses 0:13:29.102 --> 0:13:34.342 of parents. And so it's not really an answer to say, oh, well, 0:13:34.582 --> 0:13:37.222 the parents were there, and how could this have happened? 0:13:37.262 --> 0:13:41.542 Because so much of it is furtive grooming behavior. And 0:13:41.622 --> 0:13:44.142 I also understood that a long time ago, and in 0:13:44.182 --> 0:13:47.222 the sixties, when I was a child, there was very 0:13:47.262 --> 0:13:52.062 little ability to say something about a respected adult and 0:13:52.142 --> 0:13:56.342 be believed. And especially if a child, a small child, 0:13:56.462 --> 0:13:59.982 was talking about parts of the body or something that 0:14:00.102 --> 0:14:03.902 was regarded as rude or shocking for a child to say, 0:14:04.622 --> 0:14:06.942 it was very hard for them to get the message across. 0:14:07.022 --> 0:14:11.942 And I remember getting very very sternly treated when I 0:14:12.022 --> 0:14:15.062 was trying to tell people who should have known, and 0:14:15.102 --> 0:14:17.222 I used, at about the age of six or seven, 0:14:17.342 --> 0:14:21.182 use the word penis to try to tell the message, 0:14:21.622 --> 0:14:27.062 and I got hit really using that word. So I 0:14:27.742 --> 0:14:31.102 didn't bother to tell anyone sell the same people again 0:14:31.182 --> 0:14:32.222 until I was an adult. 0:14:33.302 --> 0:14:36.382 Just goes to show, though I would hope that nowadays, 0:14:37.062 --> 0:14:40.302 you know, young children, I'm teaching my two year old 0:14:40.422 --> 0:14:43.782 about consent or trying to yes, teaching him about body parts, like, 0:14:43.822 --> 0:14:45.222 we're just so much more knowledgeable. 0:14:45.262 --> 0:14:47.782 We are so much more knowledgeable there seem to be 0:14:48.142 --> 0:14:51.422 in that generation of people. They weren't all like this, 0:14:51.542 --> 0:14:55.342 but there was such a people just take a sharp 0:14:55.382 --> 0:14:58.022 intake of breath at the mention of anything sexual. It 0:14:58.102 --> 0:15:01.862 was also behind the curtain, and so I think it's 0:15:01.862 --> 0:15:05.542 so much more healthy that everyone just takes sexual matters 0:15:05.582 --> 0:15:08.262 in their stride and it's not something that only people 0:15:08.342 --> 0:15:11.382 of a certain age can talk about it in hush tones. 0:15:12.822 --> 0:15:14.742 So good for you with your little boy. 0:15:15.422 --> 0:15:18.462 You've been involved in so many high profile cases during 0:15:18.462 --> 0:15:21.662 your time as a prosecutor and crime prosecutor, too many 0:15:21.702 --> 0:15:23.182 to touch on in this episode, so I want to 0:15:23.222 --> 0:15:25.902 hone in on one the scaff gang rapes. Would you 0:15:25.942 --> 0:15:29.502 say that it's among one of the cases you're asked 0:15:29.502 --> 0:15:30.142 about the most. 0:15:30.342 --> 0:15:33.462 Yes, I'm asked about that the most, really the most. 0:15:33.662 --> 0:15:34.542 Why do you think that is? 0:15:35.462 --> 0:15:39.662 There's a few reasons. Those offenses took place in August 0:15:39.702 --> 0:15:42.542 two thousand, so it was kind of a change of 0:15:42.822 --> 0:15:46.142 history in a sense, and it was just before the Olympics. 0:15:46.742 --> 0:15:51.022 The occurrence of the crimes was a bit concealed by 0:15:51.062 --> 0:15:55.182 authorities at the time, so that there wasn't a huge panic. 0:15:55.862 --> 0:16:00.782 But there were fifteen men in a gang, not always 0:16:01.182 --> 0:16:06.262 all all together, but easily able with the relatively new 0:16:06.422 --> 0:16:10.662 invention of mobile phones to get together and to have 0:16:10.782 --> 0:16:15.022 sort of a military type operation, just so that there'd 0:16:15.022 --> 0:16:20.142 be literally shifts of men coming in to assault a 0:16:20.182 --> 0:16:24.622 young woman or two. It was really shocking. The mobile 0:16:24.662 --> 0:16:28.182 telephones gave us a lot more detail, and so too 0:16:28.302 --> 0:16:34.462 did the victims were extremely articulate and well able to 0:16:34.542 --> 0:16:39.182 give so many descriptions of what happened. One victim in particular, 0:16:39.542 --> 0:16:43.422 who was involved with this gang over six hours and 0:16:43.582 --> 0:16:49.422 four locations. Her memory of it was so impressive because 0:16:49.502 --> 0:16:51.942 not just because there was a lot of detail in 0:16:52.142 --> 0:16:56.782 a statement that can happen anytime and a prosecutor or 0:16:56.782 --> 0:16:59.782 a police officer isn't sure whether it's true or not, 0:17:00.222 --> 0:17:02.582 but so much of the detail was able to be 0:17:02.742 --> 0:17:06.342 checked because of the other relatively new thing of CCTV 0:17:06.502 --> 0:17:10.542 on a railway station. But even details like the one 0:17:10.582 --> 0:17:15.062 in the yellow jumper had something to do with his 0:17:15.422 --> 0:17:19.702 private area, and that turned out to be true, and 0:17:19.742 --> 0:17:23.622 so she was. So she just took it all in, 0:17:23.982 --> 0:17:28.262 even through the stress of probably believing at the end 0:17:28.302 --> 0:17:31.942 she might be killed, just going through something so terrible, 0:17:31.942 --> 0:17:36.742 but remembering so accurately because mobile phones backed up what 0:17:36.822 --> 0:17:39.222 she said about he left and he came back, and 0:17:39.262 --> 0:17:42.822 so forth, and mobile phones I suppose that this was 0:17:42.902 --> 0:17:47.742 the first case where mobile phones were used so much 0:17:47.782 --> 0:17:52.022 in the detection of the offenders. And I learned things 0:17:52.302 --> 0:17:56.302 like a mobile tower being able to say not just 0:17:56.342 --> 0:17:58.782 that it's picked up on that tower, but which of 0:17:58.862 --> 0:18:02.702 three sectors the direction of the call comes from. So 0:18:02.822 --> 0:18:05.822 even if some of the offenders lived close to the 0:18:06.262 --> 0:18:09.822 mobile tower, their home wasn't in the correct sector, and 0:18:09.902 --> 0:18:12.662 so they were they were found out that way. And 0:18:12.782 --> 0:18:16.382 the other interesting thing about the mobile telephone that I 0:18:16.462 --> 0:18:21.302 learned then and we'll never forget, is during the offenses, 0:18:21.982 --> 0:18:25.462 Miss c as she was called by the court, heard 0:18:25.622 --> 0:18:28.822 her own ring tone her phone had been taken from her, 0:18:28.982 --> 0:18:31.942 and heard her ring tone, which was the real slim 0:18:31.942 --> 0:18:36.222 shady eminem two thousan. Yes, that's right. She saw one 0:18:36.222 --> 0:18:39.102 of the offenders at his phone with that and saw 0:18:39.142 --> 0:18:41.982 it was her phone. But in the end they gave 0:18:42.022 --> 0:18:44.902 her back her phone. But he had put his SIM 0:18:44.902 --> 0:18:47.222 card in there because he liked the phone ring tone 0:18:47.302 --> 0:18:51.422 or both and used it that night. Perhaps he used 0:18:51.422 --> 0:18:54.542 it to ring people and didn't want it on his phone, 0:18:54.622 --> 0:18:57.422 or was or who knows, probably as simple as wanted 0:18:57.462 --> 0:19:01.382 to try that phone out. But then, as I learned 0:19:01.422 --> 0:19:04.742 for the first time in the preparation for that case. 0:19:05.342 --> 0:19:08.982 Every phone, even then the old Nokias, the phone sends 0:19:08.982 --> 0:19:11.742 a message of the call, and the SIM card sends 0:19:11.782 --> 0:19:14.462 a separate message of the call, so it could be 0:19:14.502 --> 0:19:18.262 proved that the call was made with his sim card 0:19:18.342 --> 0:19:21.182 and her phone, so that linked them so that he 0:19:21.182 --> 0:19:23.142 couldn't get out of it at all, even though of 0:19:23.182 --> 0:19:25.222 course he said I was at home, it wasn't me, 0:19:25.502 --> 0:19:27.182 someone who looked like me, and so forth. 0:19:27.342 --> 0:19:31.182 So this kind of technological side of investigation that was 0:19:31.222 --> 0:19:31.782 fairly new. 0:19:32.022 --> 0:19:35.102 Yes, it really was. It was the first sexual assault 0:19:35.102 --> 0:19:39.142 case I'd ever done that was investigated like a murder. 0:19:40.022 --> 0:19:42.862 Because I've heard it said that the brief of evidence 0:19:42.902 --> 0:19:46.022 that you got was as good as you would get 0:19:46.022 --> 0:19:49.422 from a murder, which is impressive in a sexual assault case. 0:19:49.542 --> 0:19:52.182 It really was, And it was such a big strike 0:19:52.302 --> 0:19:56.942 force of about a dozen fantastic detectives who many of 0:19:56.942 --> 0:20:00.262 whom had homicide experience. They did it like that, So 0:20:00.302 --> 0:20:03.982 it was not just a usual case of at that 0:20:04.142 --> 0:20:08.782 time of alleged sexual assault, where there'd be a statement 0:20:08.822 --> 0:20:12.062 from the complainant and perhaps a statement from a doctor 0:20:12.622 --> 0:20:15.822 and a statement from a police officer saying, we arrested 0:20:16.142 --> 0:20:18.102 the guy and he wouldn't say anything, and that's that, 0:20:18.582 --> 0:20:21.262 and that was all you got. But in this case 0:20:21.382 --> 0:20:25.542 there was so much more CCTV and all the phone evidence, 0:20:25.582 --> 0:20:26.702 which was fascinating. 0:20:26.742 --> 0:20:28.982 Which makes your job easier, right, I mean, it's not 0:20:29.062 --> 0:20:32.382 an easier case, but you want as much detail as possible. 0:20:32.182 --> 0:20:35.822 That's right. And as much as we know that it 0:20:35.902 --> 0:20:40.942 still doesn't prove whether sexual intercourse is rape or not. 0:20:41.422 --> 0:20:44.062 In a case like this, it sure does. In the 0:20:44.102 --> 0:20:47.982 back of buildings, with men coming and going, different cars 0:20:48.022 --> 0:20:50.982 coming and going, and more and more offenses taking place, 0:20:52.142 --> 0:20:56.022 it was obvious that that complainant and all the other 0:20:56.062 --> 0:21:00.422 complainants were there against their will and certainly not consenting 0:21:00.462 --> 0:21:11.222 to these waves of men who were arriving. 0:21:13.982 --> 0:21:16.462 Can you tell us a little bit more about the 0:21:16.542 --> 0:21:19.462 names that people might remember, and it's the reason it's 0:21:19.502 --> 0:21:22.982 called the Scaff rape. So the Muhammad and Blal scaff 0:21:22.982 --> 0:21:24.702 who were the kind of ring leaders or Balal was 0:21:24.702 --> 0:21:25.262 the ring leader? 0:21:25.422 --> 0:21:27.382 Yes, what was the setup? 0:21:27.422 --> 0:21:29.382 They were the brothers that were kind of running it. 0:21:29.742 --> 0:21:32.542 Yeah, yeah, they were in a sense. Bill Al was 0:21:32.862 --> 0:21:38.142 always involved and Muhammed was a bit of a runner 0:21:38.182 --> 0:21:42.382 for him. Muhammed was only sixteen at the time and 0:21:43.382 --> 0:21:47.822 he well he's still in the news, Yes he is. 0:21:49.502 --> 0:21:53.502 He's still in the news. But he was sixteen and 0:21:53.542 --> 0:21:57.742 bill Al was eighteen. I'm not trying to take away 0:21:57.782 --> 0:22:01.422 from their crimes, but there was something. There were a 0:22:01.462 --> 0:22:05.622 few features in their upbringing that seemed to scream out 0:22:05.662 --> 0:22:11.382 that they weren't necessarily brought up to respect young Australian women. Yeah, 0:22:11.422 --> 0:22:16.142 that was very clear from their supporters and members of 0:22:16.182 --> 0:22:20.742 their family and the way that they would harass the victims, 0:22:20.862 --> 0:22:24.702 well at the time complainants, but imagine that that women 0:22:25.302 --> 0:22:27.342 associated with them were harassing. 0:22:28.302 --> 0:22:31.062 Well, you're kind of touching around the edges on the 0:22:31.182 --> 0:22:34.542 racial motivation side of this case, which is kind of 0:22:34.542 --> 0:22:37.222 what the media ran with. You know, it got this 0:22:37.422 --> 0:22:41.142 huge This is a racially motivated attack and it kind 0:22:41.142 --> 0:22:44.022 of was stemming from the fact that the victims were 0:22:44.062 --> 0:22:47.342 being called things like ossie pigs. You deserve it because 0:22:47.342 --> 0:22:52.102 you're Australian. How did that side of things overtake this case, 0:22:52.102 --> 0:22:53.102 particularly in the media. 0:22:53.342 --> 0:22:56.822 Yes, Well, as I've always said, I wouldn't have ever 0:22:56.982 --> 0:23:00.982 mentioned any racial aspect of it, except that those were 0:23:01.022 --> 0:23:04.102 the words that were said by some of the offenders 0:23:04.462 --> 0:23:08.222 during the rapes, and so they brought it on themselves 0:23:08.262 --> 0:23:13.302 in a sense. But that was very bad for the 0:23:13.422 --> 0:23:17.982 Lebanese community, very bad because they wore it all and 0:23:18.022 --> 0:23:21.662 every Lebanese person you know, felt like that the finger 0:23:21.702 --> 0:23:24.222 had been pointed at them, and that was most unfair, 0:23:24.382 --> 0:23:28.622 most unfair, because this is a very tiny proportion of 0:23:28.662 --> 0:23:32.462 people who would act like this, and it's very very unfair. 0:23:32.502 --> 0:23:35.222 And in the book I do tell the story about 0:23:35.502 --> 0:23:37.622 naming the offenders because. 0:23:37.422 --> 0:23:39.182 They were under suppression because they were kids. 0:23:39.382 --> 0:23:42.542 Yes, that's right, and even the naming bill Al's name 0:23:42.582 --> 0:23:45.862 would have would have named Muhammad or in a sense 0:23:45.902 --> 0:23:50.262 because brothers and everything like that. But I made the submission. 0:23:50.302 --> 0:23:53.622 In the end, I didn't know whether I should or not, 0:23:53.702 --> 0:23:56.382 but I made the submission to name them after a 0:23:56.622 --> 0:24:00.782 young Muslim law student who I was teaching at the time, lecturing, 0:24:01.302 --> 0:24:05.222 said they've got to be named otherwise our whole community 0:24:05.422 --> 0:24:07.222 has to wear it, that it should be put the 0:24:07.222 --> 0:24:09.702 blame should be put on the people who did it, 0:24:09.982 --> 0:24:12.982 not on the whole community, and that you can't argue 0:24:12.982 --> 0:24:16.102 with logic like that. And the judge agreed, and so 0:24:16.222 --> 0:24:21.822