1 00:00:11,502 --> 00:00:16,142 Speaker 1: You're listing to a Mumma Mea podcast. Mamma Mea acknowledges 2 00:00:16,222 --> 00:00:19,662 Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waterers. This podcast was 3 00:00:19,702 --> 00:00:27,302 Speaker 1: recorded on it's early August in Sydney in the year 4 00:00:27,302 --> 00:00:30,222 Speaker 1: two thousand and the city is gearing up to host 5 00:00:30,262 --> 00:00:34,702 Speaker 1: the Olympics. Two year twelve girls aged seventeen and eighteen 6 00:00:34,742 --> 00:00:37,262 Speaker 1: are at Chatswood shopping center chatting to a group of 7 00:00:37,262 --> 00:00:41,222 Speaker 1: teenage boys. They're offered a lift home, so they accept. 8 00:00:41,862 --> 00:00:45,822 Speaker 1: Hopping into a white van with the group, they're taken 9 00:00:45,822 --> 00:00:51,462 Speaker 1: to Greenacre in the city's west, where they're slacked, threatened, pushed, 10 00:00:51,542 --> 00:00:56,462 Speaker 1: and raped by a total of eight males. Two days later, 11 00:00:56,582 --> 00:00:59,742 Speaker 1: the group strikes again, giving a sixteen year old girl 12 00:00:59,782 --> 00:01:02,422 Speaker 1: a lift into the city. Taken to a park and 13 00:01:02,502 --> 00:01:06,582 Speaker 1: ambushed by a group of fourteen the teenager is raped 14 00:01:06,622 --> 00:01:09,502 Speaker 1: by two of them while the others watch on and laugh. 15 00:01:11,342 --> 00:01:14,422 Speaker 1: On August thirty, an eighteen year old woman is approached 16 00:01:14,422 --> 00:01:18,222 Speaker 1: by the group on a train to Bankstown. She's persuaded 17 00:01:18,262 --> 00:01:21,102 Speaker 1: to get off with them, tricked into entering a public toilet, 18 00:01:21,702 --> 00:01:25,262 Speaker 1: and raped over and over. Both there and in two 19 00:01:25,302 --> 00:01:30,382 Speaker 1: other locations. She's sexually assaulted by fourteen men and boys 20 00:01:30,422 --> 00:01:34,742 Speaker 1: in total over the course of six terrifying hours. As 21 00:01:34,742 --> 00:01:38,182 Speaker 1: a final humiliation, they hose her down and throw her 22 00:01:38,222 --> 00:01:42,382 Speaker 1: into the street near a train station. In early September, 23 00:01:42,902 --> 00:01:45,262 Speaker 1: two sixteen year old girls are picked up from another 24 00:01:45,342 --> 00:01:49,542 Speaker 1: railway station in the city's southwest. They're repeatedly raped by 25 00:01:49,622 --> 00:01:55,022 Speaker 1: three males over a period of five hours. This series 26 00:01:55,062 --> 00:01:58,542 Speaker 1: of horrific crimes becomes known as the Scaff Gang rapes, 27 00:01:58,982 --> 00:02:02,862 Speaker 1: named after the gang's ringleaders, brothers Bellal and Muhammad Scaff. 28 00:02:03,822 --> 00:02:06,742 Speaker 1: The magnitude of the horror they subjected their victims to 29 00:02:06,862 --> 00:02:09,542 Speaker 1: left our country in a state of shock and outrage, 30 00:02:09,902 --> 00:02:12,462 Speaker 1: with a judge which describing the offenses as events that 31 00:02:12,502 --> 00:02:15,582 Speaker 1: you hear about or read about only in the context 32 00:02:15,662 --> 00:02:20,902 Speaker 1: of wartime atrocities. The group, aged between sixteen and twenty, 33 00:02:21,582 --> 00:02:24,862 Speaker 1: consisted of up to fourteen boys and men, but only 34 00:02:24,982 --> 00:02:28,302 Speaker 1: nine were convicted, sentenced to a total of more than 35 00:02:28,342 --> 00:02:32,422 Speaker 1: two hundred and forty years in prison. Only one of 36 00:02:32,462 --> 00:02:42,582 Speaker 1: them remains behind bars. I'm Jemma Bath and This is 37 00:02:42,622 --> 00:02:46,822 Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations Amoma mea podcast exploring the world's most 38 00:02:46,862 --> 00:02:49,822 Speaker 1: notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know the 39 00:02:49,862 --> 00:02:53,902 Speaker 1: most about them. Our guest today led the prosecution of 40 00:02:53,942 --> 00:02:58,302 Speaker 1: the two thousand Scaff gang rapes. Margaret Kneen sc has 41 00:02:58,382 --> 00:03:01,502 Speaker 1: enjoyed a long career as a Crown Prosecutor and Deputy 42 00:03:01,582 --> 00:03:05,742 Speaker 1: Senior Crown Prosecutor, leading hundreds of judge only and jury 43 00:03:05,782 --> 00:03:08,942 Speaker 1: criminal trials and appeals in the New South Wales Court 44 00:03:09,022 --> 00:03:12,782 Speaker 1: of Criminal Appeal and High Court of Australia. She's recorded 45 00:03:12,822 --> 00:03:16,262 Speaker 1: a long succession of convictions against rapists and murderers, including 46 00:03:16,302 --> 00:03:19,982 Speaker 1: the butcher of Beager and pedophile Robert Dolly Dunn, and 47 00:03:20,062 --> 00:03:22,982 Speaker 1: has served as Commissioner of the New South Wales Special 48 00:03:22,982 --> 00:03:26,622 Speaker 1: Commission of Inquiry into matters relating to the police investigation 49 00:03:26,742 --> 00:03:30,502 Speaker 1: of certain child sexual abuse allegations in the Roman Catholic 50 00:03:30,582 --> 00:03:34,502 Speaker 1: Diocese of Maitland Newcastle. She's had her fair share of 51 00:03:34,582 --> 00:03:38,102 Speaker 1: controversy too. At the end of twenty fourteen, she was 52 00:03:38,142 --> 00:03:41,822 Speaker 1: investigated by the New South Wales EYEKAC, who were pursuing 53 00:03:41,862 --> 00:03:45,702 Speaker 1: her for corrupt conduct. She was accused of perverting the 54 00:03:45,742 --> 00:03:49,342 Speaker 1: course of justice for advising her son's girlfriend to fake 55 00:03:49,542 --> 00:03:52,662 Speaker 1: chest pains to avoid a breath test after a car crash. 56 00:03:53,142 --> 00:03:56,422 Speaker 1: She was fully exonerated and her involvement in the inquiry 57 00:03:56,462 --> 00:04:00,862 Speaker 1: at all was revealed to be a big misunderstanding. Retiring 58 00:04:00,942 --> 00:04:04,742 Speaker 1: from public office in twenty nineteen, Margaret embarked on a 59 00:04:04,782 --> 00:04:08,942 Speaker 1: brand new chapter, doing the complete professional opposite of what 60 00:04:09,022 --> 00:04:13,342 Speaker 1: she's done for so long, defending the accused instead of 61 00:04:13,382 --> 00:04:17,182 Speaker 1: prosecuting them. Her career is outlined in a chronicle called 62 00:04:17,182 --> 00:04:20,902 Speaker 1: The Boxing Butterfly, which explores some of her biggest cases 63 00:04:20,942 --> 00:04:26,662 Speaker 1: and moments. Margaret joins us, now, Margaret, you've had a 64 00:04:26,782 --> 00:04:31,542 Speaker 1: very big career. Do you have a proudest moment? Is 65 00:04:31,542 --> 00:04:35,062 Speaker 1: that something you're even able to do with so many achievements. 66 00:04:35,702 --> 00:04:39,262 Speaker 2: I do have one, and it's fairly recent, and it's 67 00:04:39,302 --> 00:04:42,822 Speaker 2: in my time as defense counsel. Because my career is 68 00:04:42,902 --> 00:04:46,022 Speaker 2: now forty eight years old at the end of this year, 69 00:04:46,062 --> 00:04:49,302 Speaker 2: forty eight years of full time work. My goodness, no wonder, 70 00:04:49,942 --> 00:04:52,662 Speaker 2: no wonder, I feel tired. The big moment for me, 71 00:04:52,982 --> 00:04:57,662 Speaker 2: the biggest achievement was winning a case that perhaps most 72 00:04:57,702 --> 00:05:01,822 Speaker 2: people wouldn't have seen the success in. And it's the 73 00:05:01,862 --> 00:05:05,622 Speaker 2: case of Coulwynda Singh, who was charged with burning his 74 00:05:05,702 --> 00:05:10,062 Speaker 2: wife to death. And I sensed very much a bit 75 00:05:10,102 --> 00:05:13,742 Speaker 2: of a racist persecution going on and even that the 76 00:05:13,742 --> 00:05:16,102 Speaker 2: Crown was going to get an expert to say that 77 00:05:16,182 --> 00:05:20,622 Speaker 2: Indian men burn their wives and on her short list 78 00:05:20,742 --> 00:05:23,222 Speaker 2: to prove that this expert, who had never been to India, 79 00:05:23,262 --> 00:05:26,182 Speaker 2: by the way, she already had mister Singh's name on it, 80 00:05:26,622 --> 00:05:29,902 Speaker 2: and he hadn't been convicted. And as it happened, there 81 00:05:30,022 --> 00:05:33,062 Speaker 2: was plenty of evidence in that case, plenty of forensic evidence, 82 00:05:33,102 --> 00:05:37,302 Speaker 2: and it all pointed to the deceased woman having set 83 00:05:37,302 --> 00:05:40,222 Speaker 2: her self on fire, but not to burn herself. It 84 00:05:40,302 --> 00:05:43,182 Speaker 2: was a mistake. She used petrol instead of kerosene. She'd 85 00:05:43,222 --> 00:05:45,782 Speaker 2: prepared herself, she'd put a hair up that she usually 86 00:05:45,822 --> 00:05:49,102 Speaker 2: had down in a wet towel. She prepared everything, and 87 00:05:49,142 --> 00:05:51,862 Speaker 2: hers were the only fingerprints in DNA on the petrol 88 00:05:51,942 --> 00:05:55,502 Speaker 2: can and on the lighter. But poor mister Singh, who 89 00:05:55,622 --> 00:05:58,502 Speaker 2: is who I could faithfully say to the jury, has 90 00:05:58,582 --> 00:06:02,462 Speaker 2: never had a drink, smoke, gambled, didn't have anyone on 91 00:06:02,542 --> 00:06:05,862 Speaker 2: the side, so to speak, never been to a brothel, casino, nothing, 92 00:06:05,942 --> 00:06:09,102 Speaker 2: Just a hard working guy with a lovely family. It 93 00:06:09,222 --> 00:06:12,182 Speaker 2: wasn't him, but he was. He was treated so badly 94 00:06:12,262 --> 00:06:15,222 Speaker 2: by everyone who assumed it must have been well that 95 00:06:15,302 --> 00:06:18,622 Speaker 2: he did it to her. So it was hard won 96 00:06:18,822 --> 00:06:22,382 Speaker 2: victory because the first trial was conducted in a way 97 00:06:22,422 --> 00:06:26,182 Speaker 2: which wasn't allowed the second time by the prosecution desperate 98 00:06:26,262 --> 00:06:29,582 Speaker 2: for a conviction and breaking it up. Well, even if 99 00:06:29,902 --> 00:06:32,542 Speaker 2: she did it, you forced her to and all these 100 00:06:32,582 --> 00:06:36,502 Speaker 2: different permutations. But finally, and that was a hung jury. 101 00:06:36,542 --> 00:06:38,942 Speaker 2: The second time, we were able to keep the crown 102 00:06:38,982 --> 00:06:42,542 Speaker 2: to admissible evidence and the jury very quickly came back 103 00:06:42,542 --> 00:06:45,622 Speaker 2: with a not guilty verdict. But he spent a lot 104 00:06:45,662 --> 00:06:48,022 Speaker 2: of his own money, he did four months in jail, 105 00:06:48,622 --> 00:06:52,022 Speaker 2: and he's just suffered so much. And it just shows 106 00:06:52,062 --> 00:06:55,822 Speaker 2: that investigators ought not to jump to conclusions and that 107 00:06:55,862 --> 00:06:59,102 Speaker 2: the legal process testing all the evidence is there for 108 00:06:59,222 --> 00:06:59,902 Speaker 2: a good reason. 109 00:07:00,702 --> 00:07:03,822 Speaker 1: It's interesting that you pick a proudest moment from your 110 00:07:03,942 --> 00:07:06,142 Speaker 1: I'm going to call it second act, because you spent 111 00:07:06,302 --> 00:07:10,782 Speaker 1: so much time on the other side prosecuting cases. What 112 00:07:10,822 --> 00:07:13,982 Speaker 1: has it been like spending the last few years in defense? 113 00:07:14,062 --> 00:07:16,782 Speaker 2: Yes, six years now. I didn't know whether anyone would 114 00:07:16,782 --> 00:07:21,222 Speaker 2: brief me. I left the Crown at sixty and thought, well, 115 00:07:21,342 --> 00:07:24,262 Speaker 2: that's the sort of where the super comes to a 116 00:07:24,302 --> 00:07:26,662 Speaker 2: sort of stop. So let's see what it's like. Will 117 00:07:26,702 --> 00:07:29,702 Speaker 2: anyone brief me, But I didn't get any briefs from 118 00:07:30,102 --> 00:07:35,222 Speaker 2: the prosecution none, And so I was briefed by many 119 00:07:35,262 --> 00:07:39,102 Speaker 2: different defense solicitors, most of whom I'd never worked with. 120 00:07:39,262 --> 00:07:44,062 Speaker 2: But there's just so much work, and I'm still turning 121 00:07:44,062 --> 00:07:47,862 Speaker 2: it away and booked out well towards the end of 122 00:07:47,942 --> 00:07:52,182 Speaker 2: next year. So it's true that I did some wonderful 123 00:07:52,502 --> 00:07:56,542 Speaker 2: cases as a Crown prosecutor, and I'm still in contact 124 00:07:56,622 --> 00:08:01,822 Speaker 2: with dozens of families, especially bereaved parents of children who 125 00:08:01,822 --> 00:08:05,862 Speaker 2: were killed, such as Lindsay van Blanken, whose body was 126 00:08:05,862 --> 00:08:08,982 Speaker 2: found in a cricket bag. I'm still friends with her 127 00:08:09,062 --> 00:08:12,782 Speaker 2: mum and her sister. But in a sense, Jemma, I've 128 00:08:12,822 --> 00:08:15,382 Speaker 2: got to say that it's a bit more of a 129 00:08:15,502 --> 00:08:22,422 Speaker 2: challenge on the defense side. It's generally more straightforward on 130 00:08:22,502 --> 00:08:26,222 Speaker 2: the prosecution side. If you're on the correct side, and 131 00:08:26,262 --> 00:08:29,262 Speaker 2: you should be by the time a trial gets up, 132 00:08:29,622 --> 00:08:33,262 Speaker 2: the Crown prosecutor should be very confident of the evidence 133 00:08:33,942 --> 00:08:36,542 Speaker 2: and very confident of the way the matter should go 134 00:08:37,182 --> 00:08:40,182 Speaker 2: by having made sure that it's all been tested to 135 00:08:40,222 --> 00:08:45,262 Speaker 2: some degree and everything checked before someone is put on trial. 136 00:08:45,822 --> 00:08:48,542 Speaker 2: But from the defense point of view, being against the 137 00:08:49,702 --> 00:08:56,622 Speaker 2: zeitgeist against the publicity and the tendency now it seems 138 00:08:56,662 --> 00:08:59,782 Speaker 2: to me for people to make up their mind before 139 00:08:59,822 --> 00:09:04,102 Speaker 2: someone is convicted, and so that's a very negative influence 140 00:09:04,302 --> 00:09:07,902 Speaker 2: carrying through the trial. And it's very hard for people, 141 00:09:08,022 --> 00:09:10,222 Speaker 2: especially people in the public eye, who get put on 142 00:09:11,462 --> 00:09:14,302 Speaker 2: because so often it's as though they've already been convicted 143 00:09:14,422 --> 00:09:18,542 Speaker 2: just when they're charged, and people forget that as they 144 00:09:18,582 --> 00:09:21,022 Speaker 2: would want if they were charged, they'd want the evidence 145 00:09:21,062 --> 00:09:23,342 Speaker 2: to be tested and proved beyond reasonable doubt. 146 00:09:23,822 --> 00:09:25,342 Speaker 1: Everyone is innocent until they're not. 147 00:09:25,662 --> 00:09:25,982 Speaker 2: Yes. 148 00:09:26,302 --> 00:09:27,702 Speaker 1: So is that a welcome challenge for you? 149 00:09:28,302 --> 00:09:31,542 Speaker 2: Well, I was daunted by it and thought it might 150 00:09:31,582 --> 00:09:35,182 Speaker 2: be difficult to change because I used to be criticized 151 00:09:35,182 --> 00:09:37,382 Speaker 2: a lot for this. I get very close to the 152 00:09:37,422 --> 00:09:40,462 Speaker 2: people I work with, and I was criticized very much, 153 00:09:40,902 --> 00:09:44,262 Speaker 2: and I think, perhaps in a somewhat sexist fashion for 154 00:09:44,342 --> 00:09:49,662 Speaker 2: decades for being just affectionate with young women who'd been 155 00:09:49,982 --> 00:09:53,582 Speaker 2: terribly assaulted or parents who'd lost a child. And I 156 00:09:53,702 --> 00:09:56,022 Speaker 2: warmed to those people and thought it would be easier 157 00:09:56,062 --> 00:09:59,302 Speaker 2: for them if they knew how much it meant to 158 00:09:59,382 --> 00:10:03,062 Speaker 2: me for them to get justice. And so I've been 159 00:10:03,302 --> 00:10:08,542 Speaker 2: criticized for hugging people and having my arm around people 160 00:10:08,622 --> 00:10:12,142 Speaker 2: and so forth, showing oh that's it, yes, Oh, yes, 161 00:10:12,182 --> 00:10:14,702 Speaker 2: we must have none of us be kind. Yes, that's right, 162 00:10:14,822 --> 00:10:18,302 Speaker 2: even if we were you know, mothers and grandmothers and in. 163 00:10:18,262 --> 00:10:19,462 Speaker 1: The worst moments of their lives. 164 00:10:19,542 --> 00:10:22,062 Speaker 2: Yes, it is the worst moment of anyone's life to 165 00:10:22,102 --> 00:10:25,222 Speaker 2: go through a court process, and the more serious the 166 00:10:25,302 --> 00:10:29,582 Speaker 2: case that the worse it is for all parties. And 167 00:10:29,662 --> 00:10:32,542 Speaker 2: so you can see that people need kindness. But then 168 00:10:32,742 --> 00:10:35,342 Speaker 2: when I was a prosecutor and I saw a woman 169 00:10:36,102 --> 00:10:38,222 Speaker 2: just quietly crying, and I knew it was the mother 170 00:10:38,342 --> 00:10:42,062 Speaker 2: of the man who had just been convicted of murder. 171 00:10:42,382 --> 00:10:44,382 Speaker 2: And I saw her crying there, and she was a mum, 172 00:10:44,422 --> 00:10:47,142 Speaker 2: and I just I asked the defense counsel could I 173 00:10:47,222 --> 00:10:49,742 Speaker 2: just go and see her? And I ended up holding 174 00:10:49,782 --> 00:10:53,142 Speaker 2: her and hugging her because no one else was. So 175 00:10:53,382 --> 00:10:57,822 Speaker 2: we have to have humanity in our justice system, because 176 00:10:57,862 --> 00:11:00,142 Speaker 2: it's very, very much a part of it. It's not 177 00:11:00,662 --> 00:11:05,662 Speaker 2: it's not a mathematical calculation. It's even the determination of 178 00:11:05,702 --> 00:11:08,822 Speaker 2: these cases has so much it relies on so much 179 00:11:08,902 --> 00:11:10,662 Speaker 2: knowledge of human nature, and. 180 00:11:10,862 --> 00:11:13,982 Speaker 1: Court is scary if you haven't been in one. I've 181 00:11:13,982 --> 00:11:17,102 Speaker 1: covered them as a court reporter. They're really intimidating places. 182 00:11:17,222 --> 00:11:19,982 Speaker 1: And so these families have often never set foot in 183 00:11:20,062 --> 00:11:23,702 Speaker 1: a court before, and suddenly there's judges, there's prosecutors, there's defense, 184 00:11:23,742 --> 00:11:26,662 Speaker 1: there's criminals, and it's very overwhelming. 185 00:11:26,222 --> 00:11:29,902 Speaker 2: Yes, in a bit of an arcane language too, perhaps 186 00:11:29,942 --> 00:11:33,582 Speaker 2: deliberately set so that people don't quite know what's going on. 187 00:11:33,822 --> 00:11:33,902 Speaker 1: Ye. 188 00:11:34,142 --> 00:11:38,342 Speaker 2: And the intimidation is deliberate too, to try to scare 189 00:11:38,342 --> 00:11:40,542 Speaker 2: people into telling the truth. I don't know if it 190 00:11:40,622 --> 00:11:43,902 Speaker 2: really works like that anymore. That, like many other of 191 00:11:43,942 --> 00:11:47,222 Speaker 2: the trappings of the criminal justice system, have changed a 192 00:11:47,262 --> 00:11:51,102 Speaker 2: lot in the forty odd years I've been in it. 193 00:11:51,102 --> 00:11:52,942 Speaker 1: It's probably a good segue to bring me to a 194 00:11:52,982 --> 00:11:55,062 Speaker 1: sentence in your book that really stood out to me 195 00:11:55,302 --> 00:11:57,982 Speaker 1: right at the start in the introduction, and it said, 196 00:11:58,622 --> 00:12:02,102 Speaker 1: she has been trenchantly attacked by some colleagues in the profession. 197 00:12:02,462 --> 00:12:06,182 Speaker 1: Perhaps they mistook her niceness for weakness. It was an 198 00:12:06,182 --> 00:12:10,582 Speaker 1: observation by your co author. What would you say to that, 199 00:12:10,702 --> 00:12:12,862 Speaker 1: because that kind of speaks to what you've just been 200 00:12:12,902 --> 00:12:16,302 Speaker 1: saying about people looking at you showing empathy and kindness 201 00:12:16,542 --> 00:12:19,622 Speaker 1: and positive emotion as a weakness. 202 00:12:19,302 --> 00:12:22,542 Speaker 2: For a few decades. I think it was ago I 203 00:12:22,702 --> 00:12:26,662 Speaker 2: noticed that people thought that if you're quite pleasant and 204 00:12:26,942 --> 00:12:29,822 Speaker 2: polite with people and nice to people, polite with the 205 00:12:29,862 --> 00:12:32,942 Speaker 2: other side, you can't be taking it seriously enough. You've 206 00:12:32,942 --> 00:12:36,982 Speaker 2: got to walk in there with a stern look and 207 00:12:37,302 --> 00:12:39,222 Speaker 2: don't get too close to people, and be a bit 208 00:12:39,262 --> 00:12:43,422 Speaker 2: of an object rather than a person. But well, I've 209 00:12:43,502 --> 00:12:46,622 Speaker 2: just continued to do it my way, and if people 210 00:12:46,622 --> 00:12:49,142 Speaker 2: don't like it, well, many of the people who don't 211 00:12:49,222 --> 00:12:52,342 Speaker 2: like it aren't there anymore, so it doesn't matter, and you've. 212 00:12:52,222 --> 00:12:57,022 Speaker 1: Got your achievements to show. You have spoken before about 213 00:12:57,022 --> 00:13:01,342 Speaker 1: your own experience of sexual abuse in your childhood. Did 214 00:13:01,342 --> 00:13:05,182 Speaker 1: that help to inform your why when you entered this career, 215 00:13:05,222 --> 00:13:08,222 Speaker 1: And also, I guess the empathy that you. 216 00:13:08,222 --> 00:13:11,102 Speaker 2: Have it certainly did infor me, because because I knew 217 00:13:11,222 --> 00:13:14,342 Speaker 2: very well from when I first started working in the 218 00:13:14,382 --> 00:13:17,582 Speaker 2: prosecution of child sexual assault in the nineteen eighties, I 219 00:13:17,622 --> 00:13:21,222 Speaker 2: knew things that other people who only had a theoretical 220 00:13:21,262 --> 00:13:24,662 Speaker 2: knowledge didn't appreciate. And one of the main things is 221 00:13:24,662 --> 00:13:29,062 Speaker 2: how child sexual abuse can happen virtually under the noses 222 00:13:29,102 --> 00:13:34,342 Speaker 2: of parents. And so it's not really an answer to say, oh, well, 223 00:13:34,582 --> 00:13:37,222 Speaker 2: the parents were there, and how could this have happened? 224 00:13:37,262 --> 00:13:41,542 Speaker 2: Because so much of it is furtive grooming behavior. And 225 00:13:41,622 --> 00:13:44,142 Speaker 2: I also understood that a long time ago, and in 226 00:13:44,182 --> 00:13:47,222 Speaker 2: the sixties, when I was a child, there was very 227 00:13:47,262 --> 00:13:52,062 Speaker 2: little ability to say something about a respected adult and 228 00:13:52,142 --> 00:13:56,342 Speaker 2: be believed. And especially if a child, a small child, 229 00:13:56,462 --> 00:13:59,982 Speaker 2: was talking about parts of the body or something that 230 00:14:00,102 --> 00:14:03,902 Speaker 2: was regarded as rude or shocking for a child to say, 231 00:14:04,622 --> 00:14:06,942 Speaker 2: it was very hard for them to get the message across. 232 00:14:07,022 --> 00:14:11,942 Speaker 2: And I remember getting very very sternly treated when I 233 00:14:12,022 --> 00:14:15,062 Speaker 2: was trying to tell people who should have known, and 234 00:14:15,102 --> 00:14:17,222 Speaker 2: I used, at about the age of six or seven, 235 00:14:17,342 --> 00:14:21,182 Speaker 2: use the word penis to try to tell the message, 236 00:14:21,622 --> 00:14:27,062 Speaker 2: and I got hit really using that word. So I 237 00:14:27,742 --> 00:14:31,102 Speaker 2: didn't bother to tell anyone sell the same people again 238 00:14:31,182 --> 00:14:32,222 Speaker 2: until I was an adult. 239 00:14:33,302 --> 00:14:36,382 Speaker 1: Just goes to show, though I would hope that nowadays, 240 00:14:37,062 --> 00:14:40,302 Speaker 1: you know, young children, I'm teaching my two year old 241 00:14:40,422 --> 00:14:43,782 Speaker 1: about consent or trying to yes, teaching him about body parts, like, 242 00:14:43,822 --> 00:14:45,222 Speaker 1: we're just so much more knowledgeable. 243 00:14:45,262 --> 00:14:47,782 Speaker 2: We are so much more knowledgeable there seem to be 244 00:14:48,142 --> 00:14:51,422 Speaker 2: in that generation of people. They weren't all like this, 245 00:14:51,542 --> 00:14:55,342 Speaker 2: but there was such a people just take a sharp 246 00:14:55,382 --> 00:14:58,022 Speaker 2: intake of breath at the mention of anything sexual. It 247 00:14:58,102 --> 00:15:01,862 Speaker 2: was also behind the curtain, and so I think it's 248 00:15:01,862 --> 00:15:05,542 Speaker 2: so much more healthy that everyone just takes sexual matters 249 00:15:05,582 --> 00:15:08,262 Speaker 2: in their stride and it's not something that only people 250 00:15:08,342 --> 00:15:11,382 Speaker 2: of a certain age can talk about it in hush tones. 251 00:15:12,822 --> 00:15:14,742 Speaker 2: So good for you with your little boy. 252 00:15:15,422 --> 00:15:18,462 Speaker 1: You've been involved in so many high profile cases during 253 00:15:18,462 --> 00:15:21,662 Speaker 1: your time as a prosecutor and crime prosecutor, too many 254 00:15:21,702 --> 00:15:23,182 Speaker 1: to touch on in this episode, so I want to 255 00:15:23,222 --> 00:15:25,902 Speaker 1: hone in on one the scaff gang rapes. Would you 256 00:15:25,942 --> 00:15:29,502 Speaker 1: say that it's among one of the cases you're asked 257 00:15:29,502 --> 00:15:30,142 Speaker 1: about the most. 258 00:15:30,342 --> 00:15:33,462 Speaker 2: Yes, I'm asked about that the most, really the most. 259 00:15:33,662 --> 00:15:34,542 Speaker 1: Why do you think that is? 260 00:15:35,462 --> 00:15:39,662 Speaker 2: There's a few reasons. Those offenses took place in August 261 00:15:39,702 --> 00:15:42,542 Speaker 2: two thousand, so it was kind of a change of 262 00:15:42,822 --> 00:15:46,142 Speaker 2: history in a sense, and it was just before the Olympics. 263 00:15:46,742 --> 00:15:51,022 Speaker 2: The occurrence of the crimes was a bit concealed by 264 00:15:51,062 --> 00:15:55,182 Speaker 2: authorities at the time, so that there wasn't a huge panic. 265 00:15:55,862 --> 00:16:00,782 Speaker 2: But there were fifteen men in a gang, not always 266 00:16:01,182 --> 00:16:06,262 Speaker 2: all all together, but easily able with the relatively new 267 00:16:06,422 --> 00:16:10,662 Speaker 2: invention of mobile phones to get together and to have 268 00:16:10,782 --> 00:16:15,022 Speaker 2: sort of a military type operation, just so that there'd 269 00:16:15,022 --> 00:16:20,142 Speaker 2: be literally shifts of men coming in to assault a 270 00:16:20,182 --> 00:16:24,622 Speaker 2: young woman or two. It was really shocking. The mobile 271 00:16:24,662 --> 00:16:28,182 Speaker 2: telephones gave us a lot more detail, and so too 272 00:16:28,302 --> 00:16:34,462 Speaker 2: did the victims were extremely articulate and well able to 273 00:16:34,542 --> 00:16:39,182 Speaker 2: give so many descriptions of what happened. One victim in particular, 274 00:16:39,542 --> 00:16:43,422 Speaker 2: who was involved with this gang over six hours and 275 00:16:43,582 --> 00:16:49,422 Speaker 2: four locations. Her memory of it was so impressive because 276 00:16:49,502 --> 00:16:51,942 Speaker 2: not just because there was a lot of detail in 277 00:16:52,142 --> 00:16:56,782 Speaker 2: a statement that can happen anytime and a prosecutor or 278 00:16:56,782 --> 00:16:59,782 Speaker 2: a police officer isn't sure whether it's true or not, 279 00:17:00,222 --> 00:17:02,582 Speaker 2: but so much of the detail was able to be 280 00:17:02,742 --> 00:17:06,342 Speaker 2: checked because of the other relatively new thing of CCTV 281 00:17:06,502 --> 00:17:10,542 Speaker 2: on a railway station. But even details like the one 282 00:17:10,582 --> 00:17:15,062 Speaker 2: in the yellow jumper had something to do with his 283 00:17:15,422 --> 00:17:19,702 Speaker 2: private area, and that turned out to be true, and 284 00:17:19,742 --> 00:17:23,622 Speaker 2: so she was. So she just took it all in, 285 00:17:23,982 --> 00:17:28,262 Speaker 2: even through the stress of probably believing at the end 286 00:17:28,302 --> 00:17:31,942 Speaker 2: she might be killed, just going through something so terrible, 287 00:17:31,942 --> 00:17:36,742 Speaker 2: but remembering so accurately because mobile phones backed up what 288 00:17:36,822 --> 00:17:39,222 Speaker 2: she said about he left and he came back, and 289 00:17:39,262 --> 00:17:42,822 Speaker 2: so forth, and mobile phones I suppose that this was 290 00:17:42,902 --> 00:17:47,742 Speaker 2: the first case where mobile phones were used so much 291 00:17:47,782 --> 00:17:52,022 Speaker 2: in the detection of the offenders. And I learned things 292 00:17:52,302 --> 00:17:56,302 Speaker 2: like a mobile tower being able to say not just 293 00:17:56,342 --> 00:17:58,782 Speaker 2: that it's picked up on that tower, but which of 294 00:17:58,862 --> 00:18:02,702 Speaker 2: three sectors the direction of the call comes from. So 295 00:18:02,822 --> 00:18:05,822 Speaker 2: even if some of the offenders lived close to the 296 00:18:06,262 --> 00:18:09,822 Speaker 2: mobile tower, their home wasn't in the correct sector, and 297 00:18:09,902 --> 00:18:12,662 Speaker 2: so they were they were found out that way. And 298 00:18:12,782 --> 00:18:16,382 Speaker 2: the other interesting thing about the mobile telephone that I 299 00:18:16,462 --> 00:18:21,302 Speaker 2: learned then and we'll never forget, is during the offenses, 300 00:18:21,982 --> 00:18:25,462 Speaker 2: Miss c as she was called by the court, heard 301 00:18:25,622 --> 00:18:28,822 Speaker 2: her own ring tone her phone had been taken from her, 302 00:18:28,982 --> 00:18:31,942 Speaker 2: and heard her ring tone, which was the real slim 303 00:18:31,942 --> 00:18:36,222 Speaker 2: shady eminem two thousan. Yes, that's right. She saw one 304 00:18:36,222 --> 00:18:39,102 Speaker 2: of the offenders at his phone with that and saw 305 00:18:39,142 --> 00:18:41,982 Speaker 2: it was her phone. But in the end they gave 306 00:18:42,022 --> 00:18:44,902 Speaker 2: her back her phone. But he had put his SIM 307 00:18:44,902 --> 00:18:47,222 Speaker 2: card in there because he liked the phone ring tone 308 00:18:47,302 --> 00:18:51,422 Speaker 2: or both and used it that night. Perhaps he used 309 00:18:51,422 --> 00:18:54,542 Speaker 2: it to ring people and didn't want it on his phone, 310 00:18:54,622 --> 00:18:57,422 Speaker 2: or was or who knows, probably as simple as wanted 311 00:18:57,462 --> 00:19:01,382 Speaker 2: to try that phone out. But then, as I learned 312 00:19:01,422 --> 00:19:04,742 Speaker 2: for the first time in the preparation for that case. 313 00:19:05,342 --> 00:19:08,982 Speaker 2: Every phone, even then the old Nokias, the phone sends 314 00:19:08,982 --> 00:19:11,742 Speaker 2: a message of the call, and the SIM card sends 315 00:19:11,782 --> 00:19:14,462 Speaker 2: a separate message of the call, so it could be 316 00:19:14,502 --> 00:19:18,262 Speaker 2: proved that the call was made with his sim card 317 00:19:18,342 --> 00:19:21,182 Speaker 2: and her phone, so that linked them so that he 318 00:19:21,182 --> 00:19:23,142 Speaker 2: couldn't get out of it at all, even though of 319 00:19:23,182 --> 00:19:25,222 Speaker 2: course he said I was at home, it wasn't me, 320 00:19:25,502 --> 00:19:27,182 Speaker 2: someone who looked like me, and so forth. 321 00:19:27,342 --> 00:19:31,182 Speaker 1: So this kind of technological side of investigation that was 322 00:19:31,222 --> 00:19:31,782 Speaker 1: fairly new. 323 00:19:32,022 --> 00:19:35,102 Speaker 2: Yes, it really was. It was the first sexual assault 324 00:19:35,102 --> 00:19:39,142 Speaker 2: case I'd ever done that was investigated like a murder. 325 00:19:40,022 --> 00:19:42,862 Speaker 1: Because I've heard it said that the brief of evidence 326 00:19:42,902 --> 00:19:46,022 Speaker 1: that you got was as good as you would get 327 00:19:46,022 --> 00:19:49,422 Speaker 1: from a murder, which is impressive in a sexual assault case. 328 00:19:49,542 --> 00:19:52,182 Speaker 2: It really was, And it was such a big strike 329 00:19:52,302 --> 00:19:56,942 Speaker 2: force of about a dozen fantastic detectives who many of 330 00:19:56,942 --> 00:20:00,262 Speaker 2: whom had homicide experience. They did it like that, So 331 00:20:00,302 --> 00:20:03,982 Speaker 2: it was not just a usual case of at that 332 00:20:04,142 --> 00:20:08,782 Speaker 2: time of alleged sexual assault, where there'd be a statement 333 00:20:08,822 --> 00:20:12,062 Speaker 2: from the complainant and perhaps a statement from a doctor 334 00:20:12,622 --> 00:20:15,822 Speaker 2: and a statement from a police officer saying, we arrested 335 00:20:16,142 --> 00:20:18,102 Speaker 2: the guy and he wouldn't say anything, and that's that, 336 00:20:18,582 --> 00:20:21,262 Speaker 2: and that was all you got. But in this case 337 00:20:21,382 --> 00:20:25,542 Speaker 2: there was so much more CCTV and all the phone evidence, 338 00:20:25,582 --> 00:20:26,702 Speaker 2: which was fascinating. 339 00:20:26,742 --> 00:20:28,982 Speaker 1: Which makes your job easier, right, I mean, it's not 340 00:20:29,062 --> 00:20:32,382 Speaker 1: an easier case, but you want as much detail as possible. 341 00:20:32,182 --> 00:20:35,822 Speaker 2: That's right. And as much as we know that it 342 00:20:35,902 --> 00:20:40,942 Speaker 2: still doesn't prove whether sexual intercourse is rape or not. 343 00:20:41,422 --> 00:20:44,062 Speaker 2: In a case like this, it sure does. In the 344 00:20:44,102 --> 00:20:47,982 Speaker 2: back of buildings, with men coming and going, different cars 345 00:20:48,022 --> 00:20:50,982 Speaker 2: coming and going, and more and more offenses taking place, 346 00:20:52,142 --> 00:20:56,022 Speaker 2: it was obvious that that complainant and all the other 347 00:20:56,062 --> 00:21:00,422 Speaker 2: complainants were there against their will and certainly not consenting 348 00:21:00,462 --> 00:21:11,222 Speaker 2: to these waves of men who were arriving. 349 00:21:13,982 --> 00:21:16,462 Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit more about the 350 00:21:16,542 --> 00:21:19,462 Speaker 1: names that people might remember, and it's the reason it's 351 00:21:19,502 --> 00:21:22,982 Speaker 1: called the Scaff rape. So the Muhammad and Blal scaff 352 00:21:22,982 --> 00:21:24,702 Speaker 1: who were the kind of ring leaders or Balal was 353 00:21:24,702 --> 00:21:25,262 Speaker 1: the ring leader? 354 00:21:25,422 --> 00:21:27,382 Speaker 2: Yes, what was the setup? 355 00:21:27,422 --> 00:21:29,382 Speaker 1: They were the brothers that were kind of running it. 356 00:21:29,742 --> 00:21:32,542 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they were in a sense. Bill Al was 357 00:21:32,862 --> 00:21:38,142 Speaker 2: always involved and Muhammed was a bit of a runner 358 00:21:38,182 --> 00:21:42,382 Speaker 2: for him. Muhammed was only sixteen at the time and 359 00:21:43,382 --> 00:21:47,822 Speaker 2: he well he's still in the news, Yes he is. 360 00:21:49,502 --> 00:21:53,502 Speaker 2: He's still in the news. But he was sixteen and 361 00:21:53,542 --> 00:21:57,742 Speaker 2: bill Al was eighteen. I'm not trying to take away 362 00:21:57,782 --> 00:22:01,422 Speaker 2: from their crimes, but there was something. There were a 363 00:22:01,462 --> 00:22:05,622 Speaker 2: few features in their upbringing that seemed to scream out 364 00:22:05,662 --> 00:22:11,382 Speaker 2: that they weren't necessarily brought up to respect young Australian women. Yeah, 365 00:22:11,422 --> 00:22:16,142 Speaker 2: that was very clear from their supporters and members of 366 00:22:16,182 --> 00:22:20,742 Speaker 2: their family and the way that they would harass the victims, 367 00:22:20,862 --> 00:22:24,702 Speaker 2: well at the time complainants, but imagine that that women 368 00:22:25,302 --> 00:22:27,342 Speaker 2: associated with them were harassing. 369 00:22:28,302 --> 00:22:31,062 Speaker 1: Well, you're kind of touching around the edges on the 370 00:22:31,182 --> 00:22:34,542 Speaker 1: racial motivation side of this case, which is kind of 371 00:22:34,542 --> 00:22:37,222 Speaker 1: what the media ran with. You know, it got this 372 00:22:37,422 --> 00:22:41,142 Speaker 1: huge This is a racially motivated attack and it kind 373 00:22:41,142 --> 00:22:44,022 Speaker 1: of was stemming from the fact that the victims were 374 00:22:44,062 --> 00:22:47,342 Speaker 1: being called things like ossie pigs. You deserve it because 375 00:22:47,342 --> 00:22:52,102 Speaker 1: you're Australian. How did that side of things overtake this case, 376 00:22:52,102 --> 00:22:53,102 Speaker 1: particularly in the media. 377 00:22:53,342 --> 00:22:56,822 Speaker 2: Yes, Well, as I've always said, I wouldn't have ever 378 00:22:56,982 --> 00:23:00,982 Speaker 2: mentioned any racial aspect of it, except that those were 379 00:23:01,022 --> 00:23:04,102 Speaker 2: the words that were said by some of the offenders 380 00:23:04,462 --> 00:23:08,222 Speaker 2: during the rapes, and so they brought it on themselves 381 00:23:08,262 --> 00:23:13,302 Speaker 2: in a sense. But that was very bad for the 382 00:23:13,422 --> 00:23:17,982 Speaker 2: Lebanese community, very bad because they wore it all and 383 00:23:18,022 --> 00:23:21,662 Speaker 2: every Lebanese person you know, felt like that the finger 384 00:23:21,702 --> 00:23:24,222 Speaker 2: had been pointed at them, and that was most unfair, 385 00:23:24,382 --> 00:23:28,622 Speaker 2: most unfair, because this is a very tiny proportion of 386 00:23:28,662 --> 00:23:32,462 Speaker 2: people who would act like this, and it's very very unfair. 387 00:23:32,502 --> 00:23:35,222 Speaker 2: And in the book I do tell the story about 388 00:23:35,502 --> 00:23:37,622 Speaker 2: naming the offenders because. 389 00:23:37,422 --> 00:23:39,182 Speaker 1: They were under suppression because they were kids. 390 00:23:39,382 --> 00:23:42,542 Speaker 2: Yes, that's right, and even the naming bill Al's name 391 00:23:42,582 --> 00:23:45,862 Speaker 2: would have would have named Muhammad or in a sense 392 00:23:45,902 --> 00:23:50,262 Speaker 2: because brothers and everything like that. But I made the submission. 393 00:23:50,302 --> 00:23:53,622 Speaker 2: In the end, I didn't know whether I should or not, 394 00:23:53,702 --> 00:23:56,382 Speaker 2: but I made the submission to name them after a 395 00:23:56,622 --> 00:24:00,782 Speaker 2: young Muslim law student who I was teaching at the time, lecturing, 396 00:24:01,302 --> 00:24:05,222 Speaker 2: said they've got to be named otherwise our whole community 397 00:24:05,422 --> 00:24:07,222 Speaker 2: has to wear it, that it should be put the 398 00:24:07,222 --> 00:24:09,702 Speaker 2: blame should be put on the people who did it, 399 00:24:09,982 --> 00:24:12,982 Speaker 2: not on the whole community, and that you can't argue 400 00:24:12,982 --> 00:24:16,102 Speaker 2: with logic like that. And the judge agreed, and so 401 00:24:16,222 --> 00:24:21,822 Speaker 2: they were all named, and whilst their names now are 402 00:24:21,862 --> 00:24:25,222 Speaker 2: so well known, but it is better than blaming a 403 00:24:25,262 --> 00:24:26,342 Speaker 2: whole racial group. 404 00:24:26,542 --> 00:24:30,222 Speaker 1: Definitely. It's a shame we don't really know the other 405 00:24:30,302 --> 00:24:32,822 Speaker 1: names as well, you know, we just know the Scaff brothers. 406 00:24:33,062 --> 00:24:36,422 Speaker 2: Yes, well they were named. But because there were two 407 00:24:36,422 --> 00:24:39,582 Speaker 2: Scaffs and Bill al was in all the trials, they're 408 00:24:39,582 --> 00:24:40,702 Speaker 2: the ones that have worn it. 409 00:24:40,942 --> 00:24:42,982 Speaker 1: How were they caught in the end? Was it with 410 00:24:43,022 --> 00:24:44,182 Speaker 1: the mobile phones that did. 411 00:24:44,302 --> 00:24:47,582 Speaker 2: Yes, that was the main thing, the mobile phones. But 412 00:24:47,622 --> 00:24:51,422 Speaker 2: not all were caught. Only nine of the fifteen were caught, 413 00:24:52,142 --> 00:24:56,302 Speaker 2: and one or two of them did got almost nothing 414 00:24:56,622 --> 00:25:01,182 Speaker 2: really because certain proofs weren't available against them. There are 415 00:25:01,222 --> 00:25:03,462 Speaker 2: five or six who got away with it. 416 00:25:04,462 --> 00:25:05,342 Speaker 1: And so we will never know. 417 00:25:05,702 --> 00:25:10,302 Speaker 2: No, probably not, probably not. I don't think there's DNA, 418 00:25:10,942 --> 00:25:14,102 Speaker 2: but you never know. There was so much DNA taken 419 00:25:14,622 --> 00:25:17,862 Speaker 2: and methods of DNA keep coming back. 420 00:25:18,022 --> 00:25:20,982 Speaker 1: There ended up being a number of trials in this gaff. 421 00:25:21,662 --> 00:25:22,462 Speaker 2: Yes, gang reps. 422 00:25:22,622 --> 00:25:23,702 Speaker 1: Were you involved in all of them? 423 00:25:23,862 --> 00:25:26,702 Speaker 2: Yes? I was, and so in fact in the end 424 00:25:28,582 --> 00:25:33,142 Speaker 2: there were trials involving four complainants, two in one trial 425 00:25:33,382 --> 00:25:38,902 Speaker 2: and two separate other ones, and there were other complainants 426 00:25:38,942 --> 00:25:44,262 Speaker 2: where there were pleas of guilty entered that they were 427 00:25:44,342 --> 00:25:47,822 Speaker 2: a little less serious. But by then the offenders knew 428 00:25:47,822 --> 00:25:50,662 Speaker 2: that they were going to jail anyway, and they might 429 00:25:50,702 --> 00:25:54,062 Speaker 2: as well fess up to some of the others. And 430 00:25:54,222 --> 00:25:58,182 Speaker 2: the point had been made and long sentences were imposed. 431 00:25:58,982 --> 00:26:01,062 Speaker 2: Bill E's still in None of the others. 432 00:26:00,742 --> 00:26:04,422 Speaker 1: Are He's the only ones still in prison? Yes, because 433 00:26:04,422 --> 00:26:06,302 Speaker 1: something that stands out to me when you look back 434 00:26:06,302 --> 00:26:09,622 Speaker 1: at this case is how they acted in court. There 435 00:26:09,662 --> 00:26:11,022 Speaker 1: was no remorse, was there? 436 00:26:11,182 --> 00:26:14,822 Speaker 2: Oh no, they were laughing. They were terribly badly behaved. 437 00:26:15,022 --> 00:26:22,102 Speaker 2: But it must be said that that they weren't very bright. 438 00:26:23,102 --> 00:26:28,262 Speaker 2: You know, they were tested and their IQs were exceedingly low. 439 00:26:28,582 --> 00:26:31,462 Speaker 2: You know, that's something that has to go into the 440 00:26:31,462 --> 00:26:36,062 Speaker 2: mix about whether they it was almost borderline on whether 441 00:26:36,062 --> 00:26:39,222 Speaker 2: they should be sentenced as hard as people with average 442 00:26:39,622 --> 00:26:41,062 Speaker 2: at least average intelligence. 443 00:26:41,502 --> 00:26:44,542 Speaker 1: But like laughing in court and falling asleep. 444 00:26:44,142 --> 00:26:49,982 Speaker 2: Throwing things at people and yes, laughing and disappearing and 445 00:26:50,462 --> 00:26:54,382 Speaker 2: being on the ground and screaming out things, and they 446 00:26:54,862 --> 00:26:58,302 Speaker 2: clearly had no respect for the judicial system. Do you 447 00:26:58,342 --> 00:27:01,182 Speaker 2: know that something happened to me only about a month 448 00:27:01,262 --> 00:27:06,102 Speaker 2: or two ago and I didn't even expect to tell 449 00:27:06,102 --> 00:27:08,462 Speaker 2: you this today because it just came back into my 450 00:27:08,502 --> 00:27:12,022 Speaker 2: mind thinking about the other offenders. One of the other 451 00:27:12,102 --> 00:27:17,702 Speaker 2: offenders who was right in there with and his name 452 00:27:18,502 --> 00:27:22,542 Speaker 2: was MG. It was and it became I was taken 453 00:27:22,582 --> 00:27:26,182 Speaker 2: off a retrial in relation to him because of a lecture, 454 00:27:26,822 --> 00:27:30,262 Speaker 2: so he ended up and because that trial didn't succeed, 455 00:27:31,022 --> 00:27:34,462 Speaker 2: even though he did time for one in which it 456 00:27:34,502 --> 00:27:37,382 Speaker 2: did succeed. I do believe that he was involved in 457 00:27:37,742 --> 00:27:41,342 Speaker 2: the other case that he was acquitted of because he 458 00:27:41,662 --> 00:27:45,862 Speaker 2: had very distinctive hair. But anyway, I digress. Two months ago, 459 00:27:46,302 --> 00:27:50,062 Speaker 2: I was walking in Park Street, Sydney. I just got 460 00:27:50,102 --> 00:27:52,662 Speaker 2: out of an uber with some friends who were going 461 00:27:52,702 --> 00:27:55,262 Speaker 2: a different way and I was just going to peel 462 00:27:55,302 --> 00:27:57,782 Speaker 2: off and I was crossing Park Street to go and 463 00:27:57,782 --> 00:28:00,782 Speaker 2: get a cab or bus or whatever. It was dark, 464 00:28:01,462 --> 00:28:06,462 Speaker 2: and there was a beautiful white Ferrari purring at the lights. 465 00:28:07,382 --> 00:28:10,182 Speaker 2: And I do like cars a lot, and it had 466 00:28:10,182 --> 00:28:13,022 Speaker 2: gone old trim and it was really new and I'd 467 00:28:13,062 --> 00:28:16,062 Speaker 2: never seen such a beautiful Ferrari and it was making 468 00:28:16,102 --> 00:28:18,862 Speaker 2: this beautiful noise. And I must confess that as I 469 00:28:18,902 --> 00:28:21,662 Speaker 2: walked across in front of it, in the dark. I 470 00:28:21,702 --> 00:28:25,822 Speaker 2: was looking for it and looking at it, looking at everything, 471 00:28:26,222 --> 00:28:28,342 Speaker 2: and did not looking at the driver. When I got 472 00:28:28,342 --> 00:28:31,582 Speaker 2: to the other side, the window wound down and said Margaret, 473 00:28:32,102 --> 00:28:33,462 Speaker 2: and I said hello, and he said do you know 474 00:28:33,502 --> 00:28:36,302 Speaker 2: who it is? And I said no, but I like 475 00:28:36,382 --> 00:28:40,622 Speaker 2: your car and he said it's it's MG and he 476 00:28:40,782 --> 00:28:43,982 Speaker 2: sped off. And I wasn't frightened or anything, because he 477 00:28:44,022 --> 00:28:46,582 Speaker 2: had a big smile on his face. And my goodness, 478 00:28:46,622 --> 00:28:48,102 Speaker 2: he's got a Ferrari and I haven't. 479 00:28:49,302 --> 00:28:51,022 Speaker 1: But that's so many decades later as well. 480 00:28:51,142 --> 00:28:54,542 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, but I suppose my face is still about. 481 00:28:55,102 --> 00:29:01,582 Speaker 2: And I am told as recently as yesterday that criminals 482 00:29:01,622 --> 00:29:03,422 Speaker 2: in jail's talk about lawyers a lot. 483 00:29:07,142 --> 00:29:08,062 Speaker 1: That's so eerie. 484 00:29:08,142 --> 00:29:11,382 Speaker 2: Though, yes, it was so eerie. Idn't even believe it. 485 00:29:11,902 --> 00:29:13,942 Speaker 2: And I texted my friends and I said, you can't 486 00:29:13,982 --> 00:29:15,982 Speaker 2: believe what just happened. I'm just telling you in case 487 00:29:16,022 --> 00:29:20,742 Speaker 2: anything happens now. But he wasn't menacing, but he wanted 488 00:29:20,742 --> 00:29:23,022 Speaker 2: you to know he was there. Though he was pretty 489 00:29:23,062 --> 00:29:25,262 Speaker 2: triumphant well. 490 00:29:25,102 --> 00:29:27,222 Speaker 1: As you were mentioning. And I want to dig into 491 00:29:27,222 --> 00:29:31,422 Speaker 1: it because he was acquitted of one OF's charges. Tell 492 00:29:31,422 --> 00:29:33,502 Speaker 1: me about being taken off the retrial. 493 00:29:34,102 --> 00:29:37,822 Speaker 2: Yes, well, it is an interesting case, and I think 494 00:29:37,942 --> 00:29:40,062 Speaker 2: a wrong case. I do think it was a wrong 495 00:29:40,102 --> 00:29:44,102 Speaker 2: case because I was invited to give a prestigious lecture 496 00:29:44,262 --> 00:29:47,502 Speaker 2: in two thousand and five to the University of Newcastle. 497 00:29:48,142 --> 00:29:51,222 Speaker 2: It's called the Sinninian Stephen Lecture, and I was one 498 00:29:51,302 --> 00:29:54,862 Speaker 2: of the few people more lowly than a judge who'd 499 00:29:54,902 --> 00:29:59,222 Speaker 2: ever been invited to do it, and the Dean paid 500 00:29:59,262 --> 00:30:01,422 Speaker 2: me a great honor in asking me, and so I 501 00:30:01,582 --> 00:30:06,262 Speaker 2: prepared a lecture. It's a lecture very carefully and most 502 00:30:06,342 --> 00:30:08,742 Speaker 2: of it wasn't about any cases at all. Most of 503 00:30:08,782 --> 00:30:10,982 Speaker 2: it was to try to be in s firing to 504 00:30:11,102 --> 00:30:14,062 Speaker 2: the first year law students who were the target audience, 505 00:30:14,222 --> 00:30:17,662 Speaker 2: about the power that that one gets from being a 506 00:30:17,742 --> 00:30:20,542 Speaker 2: lawyer and how to be good with it and how 507 00:30:20,622 --> 00:30:23,582 Speaker 2: you know. I even said such things as it would 508 00:30:23,582 --> 00:30:26,622 Speaker 2: be the worst nightmare of a prosecutor to think that 509 00:30:26,702 --> 00:30:31,062 Speaker 2: he or she had prosecuted someone who was actually not guilty. 510 00:30:31,582 --> 00:30:33,662 Speaker 1: But she's a pretty obvious thing, you would think, I 511 00:30:33,662 --> 00:30:34,142 Speaker 1: would think. 512 00:30:34,182 --> 00:30:38,502 Speaker 2: So I hope that that always is the case. And 513 00:30:38,542 --> 00:30:42,502 Speaker 2: so I thought it was good. But the Dean had 514 00:30:42,542 --> 00:30:44,782 Speaker 2: asked me to comment because he said, so many of 515 00:30:44,782 --> 00:30:48,102 Speaker 2: the students wonder why all the scaff cases are still 516 00:30:48,302 --> 00:30:51,382 Speaker 2: limping on through the system, and it just hasn't come 517 00:30:51,462 --> 00:30:53,782 Speaker 2: to an end, and there's more trials and then there's 518 00:30:53,782 --> 00:30:57,102 Speaker 2: an appeal, and then there's a re trial and all 519 00:30:57,102 --> 00:31:00,462 Speaker 2: that business. So I just gave a bit of a 520 00:31:00,542 --> 00:31:03,902 Speaker 2: background of the allegations and the way it's gone through 521 00:31:03,942 --> 00:31:07,022 Speaker 2: the courts. And I didn't even mention their names. I 522 00:31:07,022 --> 00:31:09,302 Speaker 2: don't know if the names were public by them, probably not. 523 00:31:09,902 --> 00:31:13,142 Speaker 2: I didn't mention their names. I mentioned them by initials 524 00:31:13,262 --> 00:31:16,342 Speaker 2: so as to differentiate the cases and make it clear. 525 00:31:16,382 --> 00:31:19,342 Speaker 2: And this is a university lecture, and it's pretty normal 526 00:31:19,862 --> 00:31:24,022 Speaker 2: for lawyers to be able to lecture student lawyers about 527 00:31:24,102 --> 00:31:29,302 Speaker 2: cases even though they're still ongoing. When you're just mentioning 528 00:31:29,342 --> 00:31:32,262 Speaker 2: the things that are in the public domain, about the 529 00:31:32,982 --> 00:31:37,422 Speaker 2: course of the trials and the appeals, and why they're 530 00:31:37,462 --> 00:31:40,902 Speaker 2: still going five years after the offenses and we're still 531 00:31:40,942 --> 00:31:43,542 Speaker 2: going for years after that. In two thousand and seven, 532 00:31:43,582 --> 00:31:47,702 Speaker 2: when the fellow, now he's now got a ferrari, was 533 00:31:47,822 --> 00:31:51,582 Speaker 2: up for trial again, some lawyers who didn't want me 534 00:31:51,662 --> 00:31:54,062 Speaker 2: in the case. That's all it was about. They've told 535 00:31:54,102 --> 00:31:58,022 Speaker 2: me since thought they'd take a point that they didn't expect, 536 00:31:58,302 --> 00:32:00,422 Speaker 2: but they thought it'd buy some time with the Court 537 00:32:00,462 --> 00:32:03,422 Speaker 2: of Criminal Appeal, saying that I should never be as 538 00:32:03,422 --> 00:32:05,702 Speaker 2: a prosecutor. I should never be talking about cases that 539 00:32:05,742 --> 00:32:10,342 Speaker 2: I might be in the future, publishing something, they said publishing. 540 00:32:10,502 --> 00:32:11,942 Speaker 2: Actually I didn't publish anything. 541 00:32:12,182 --> 00:32:13,942 Speaker 1: So you're a Crown prosecutor. You're going to know if 542 00:32:13,942 --> 00:32:15,742 Speaker 1: you're doing something that's legally dubious. 543 00:32:15,902 --> 00:32:20,102 Speaker 2: Yes, that's right. But this point was taken and a 544 00:32:20,182 --> 00:32:23,062 Speaker 2: judgment was given by the court, and leading judgment was 545 00:32:23,102 --> 00:32:25,662 Speaker 2: then a judge who later went on to have some 546 00:32:25,782 --> 00:32:29,702 Speaker 2: experience in sexual assault, but who said since I didn't 547 00:32:29,782 --> 00:32:33,062 Speaker 2: know how bad it was for victims for years, but 548 00:32:33,422 --> 00:32:35,182 Speaker 2: he took me off it. He took me off the 549 00:32:35,182 --> 00:32:37,022 Speaker 2: case and said I shouldn't be in it because I've 550 00:32:37,102 --> 00:32:39,422 Speaker 2: made public comments about a case I might be in. 551 00:32:40,102 --> 00:32:43,422 Speaker 2: And so the victim didn't come back. She didn't want 552 00:32:43,422 --> 00:32:46,022 Speaker 2: to come back again, and they changed the legislation so 553 00:32:46,102 --> 00:32:48,422 Speaker 2: that her evidence could be read and so forth. But 554 00:32:48,582 --> 00:32:49,382 Speaker 2: it wasn't. 555 00:32:50,622 --> 00:32:52,662 Speaker 1: She didn't come back again because you were taken off. 556 00:32:52,742 --> 00:32:56,262 Speaker 2: Yes, that's right, And I promised her that I would 557 00:32:56,302 --> 00:33:00,462 Speaker 2: stay with her through it always and I couldn't keep 558 00:33:00,502 --> 00:33:04,782 Speaker 2: my promise, but I'd go to anyway, and someone else 559 00:33:05,302 --> 00:33:07,702 Speaker 2: did the case, not with the same knowledge. I'm not 560 00:33:07,742 --> 00:33:10,542 Speaker 2: being at all critical, but there are things that had 561 00:33:10,542 --> 00:33:12,262 Speaker 2: to be put across to a jury anyway, it was 562 00:33:12,302 --> 00:33:17,942 Speaker 2: not successful. So Ferrari man, Well, anyway, I shouldn't say that, 563 00:33:18,022 --> 00:33:20,222 Speaker 2: because you have to be things have to be proved 564 00:33:20,222 --> 00:33:24,662 Speaker 2: beyond reasonable doubt, and it wasn't. And that's exactly how 565 00:33:24,702 --> 00:33:28,582 Speaker 2: the court, the system should should prevail. But that's just 566 00:33:28,742 --> 00:33:32,262 Speaker 2: my thoughts, and maybe I've gone too far yet again, but. 567 00:33:33,022 --> 00:33:34,542 Speaker 1: So well, as far as we know, none of them 568 00:33:34,542 --> 00:33:36,262 Speaker 1: are doing appeals right now, so if fine. 569 00:33:36,142 --> 00:33:37,862 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. I think we're allowed to talk about 570 00:33:37,902 --> 00:33:40,462 Speaker 2: it now. And that's just my view, no one else's view. 571 00:33:41,262 --> 00:33:44,342 Speaker 1: It's well known though that it's very hard to get 572 00:33:44,382 --> 00:33:48,302 Speaker 1: a rape conviction, and even looking at this case, you know, 573 00:33:48,342 --> 00:33:51,702 Speaker 1: the amount of appeals and the amount of charges that 574 00:33:51,862 --> 00:33:52,862 Speaker 1: weren't able. 575 00:33:52,622 --> 00:33:55,902 Speaker 2: To it was much harder than than it is now. 576 00:33:56,142 --> 00:34:00,622 Speaker 1: But why do these cases struggle so much compared to like, I. 577 00:34:00,542 --> 00:34:03,302 Speaker 2: Don't think they do really really, yes, I think there's 578 00:34:03,342 --> 00:34:07,382 Speaker 2: plenty of people being convicted nowadays. Oh, yes, plenty of 579 00:34:07,382 --> 00:34:11,182 Speaker 2: people being convicted, and in fact there's few people being 580 00:34:11,222 --> 00:34:16,742 Speaker 2: convicted where perhaps you know an appeal will produce a 581 00:34:16,742 --> 00:34:21,902 Speaker 2: different result. And if one looks at the raw statistics 582 00:34:21,902 --> 00:34:24,462 Speaker 2: about how many convictions there are, and I don't even 583 00:34:24,502 --> 00:34:27,022 Speaker 2: think that's changed a lot. If it is said that 584 00:34:27,062 --> 00:34:32,222 Speaker 2: there's any slight reduction in conviction rates, it's because there 585 00:34:32,222 --> 00:34:36,222 Speaker 2: are so many more complaints now. And I don't want 586 00:34:36,262 --> 00:34:39,062 Speaker 2: to offend anyone, and I hope that everyone understands what 587 00:34:39,102 --> 00:34:46,382 Speaker 2: I'm saying, but that in terms of seriousness objectively, and 588 00:34:46,462 --> 00:34:50,502 Speaker 2: I know that for every victim it's their subjective feeling. 589 00:34:50,582 --> 00:34:53,582 Speaker 2: But there are so many cases now in relation to 590 00:34:54,502 --> 00:34:59,182 Speaker 2: well relationships sex that is, one person thinks it's been 591 00:34:59,222 --> 00:35:03,142 Speaker 2: agreed to and one person doesn't, and perhaps it could 592 00:35:03,142 --> 00:35:06,862 Speaker 2: be in the context of consensual sex to a certain 593 00:35:06,902 --> 00:35:11,422 Speaker 2: extent or a certain number of times, and then something more. 594 00:35:11,742 --> 00:35:16,542 Speaker 2: I'm not diminishing anyone's experience, but they're also harder to prove, 595 00:35:16,822 --> 00:35:21,302 Speaker 2: because the more aspects of things that are done to 596 00:35:21,302 --> 00:35:25,342 Speaker 2: someone that are against their will, the easier it is 597 00:35:25,382 --> 00:35:29,542 Speaker 2: to prove. So, just as an example, if the complainant 598 00:35:29,622 --> 00:35:33,542 Speaker 2: has removed her own clothes, gone somewhere private, got into 599 00:35:33,622 --> 00:35:36,262 Speaker 2: bed with someone, decided to sleep with someone. It's going 600 00:35:36,302 --> 00:35:39,662 Speaker 2: to be a bit harder to prove that there wasn't 601 00:35:39,982 --> 00:35:43,542 Speaker 2: consent to something happening. It's just a bit harder to 602 00:35:43,622 --> 00:35:45,742 Speaker 2: prove because there are two sides to the story, and 603 00:35:45,822 --> 00:35:48,742 Speaker 2: the truth of the matter is no one really knows 604 00:35:48,902 --> 00:35:50,422 Speaker 2: except those two people. 605 00:35:50,302 --> 00:35:52,182 Speaker 1: Which is hard to hear. Like you say, but you're 606 00:35:52,222 --> 00:35:56,542 Speaker 1: speaking from like a courtroom perspective, through a lawyer's eyes. 607 00:35:56,622 --> 00:36:00,422 Speaker 1: It's much harder to distinguishes than say the scaff rapes 608 00:36:00,462 --> 00:36:01,262 Speaker 1: that we're talking about. 609 00:36:01,262 --> 00:36:05,742 Speaker 2: And there can even be each side might there might 610 00:36:05,782 --> 00:36:09,942 Speaker 2: be no dishonesty from either, but each side might remember 611 00:36:09,982 --> 00:36:12,662 Speaker 2: it in a different way. And that I suppose that's 612 00:36:12,702 --> 00:36:17,462 Speaker 2: where where communication is so important, and maybe that is 613 00:36:17,502 --> 00:36:21,182 Speaker 2: why it's a good idea to change it to let's 614 00:36:21,182 --> 00:36:26,062 Speaker 2: have the specific conversation rather than the old days of 615 00:36:26,502 --> 00:36:29,582 Speaker 2: just a look in the eye and things that came 616 00:36:29,662 --> 00:36:30,862 Speaker 2: from Hollywood movies. 617 00:36:31,342 --> 00:36:32,942 Speaker 1: You mean asking for consent. 618 00:36:32,782 --> 00:36:38,222 Speaker 2: Yes, that's it, but not just generally, because many cases 619 00:36:38,422 --> 00:36:42,302 Speaker 2: are cases where consent to certain acts have taken place, 620 00:36:42,342 --> 00:36:46,542 Speaker 2: but there's got to be ongoing consent and continuous consent 621 00:36:47,342 --> 00:36:51,382 Speaker 2: but many people say, oh, that's stupid, because you know, 622 00:36:51,742 --> 00:36:53,942 Speaker 2: I'm in a relationship and we don't talk about it 623 00:36:54,022 --> 00:36:57,942 Speaker 2: and all that. But well, perhaps everyone has to have 624 00:36:58,102 --> 00:37:01,142 Speaker 2: ground rules with people, and every couple's different. 625 00:37:02,102 --> 00:37:04,942 Speaker 1: And I would also argue that people that do feel 626 00:37:04,942 --> 00:37:08,542 Speaker 1: like they've been sexually assaulted and raped in that scenario 627 00:37:08,622 --> 00:37:11,142 Speaker 1: do deserve to be able to go to and fight 628 00:37:11,622 --> 00:37:12,142 Speaker 1: for justice. 629 00:37:12,262 --> 00:37:15,342 Speaker 2: Of course, of course they do, and they are and 630 00:37:15,382 --> 00:37:18,502 Speaker 2: they are permitted to and they're given every ability to 631 00:37:18,542 --> 00:37:20,342 Speaker 2: make it easier. They don't have to be in the 632 00:37:20,382 --> 00:37:22,662 Speaker 2: same room. They can do it by AVL, they can 633 00:37:22,662 --> 00:37:25,422 Speaker 2: have as many breaks as they like, support person, all 634 00:37:25,462 --> 00:37:28,622 Speaker 2: the things, all the things that we pioneered when I 635 00:37:28,702 --> 00:37:30,622 Speaker 2: was prosecuting these types of cases. 636 00:37:31,662 --> 00:37:35,582 Speaker 1: Well, there were some changes in criminal procedure after scuff, 637 00:37:35,622 --> 00:37:36,102 Speaker 1: weren't there. 638 00:37:36,262 --> 00:37:41,142 Speaker 2: Yes, that someone doesn't have to come back time after time. 639 00:37:41,262 --> 00:37:45,502 Speaker 2: So the evidence is recorded now audio and visual, and 640 00:37:45,542 --> 00:37:49,182 Speaker 2: so it can be used well even if the complainant 641 00:37:49,262 --> 00:37:51,902 Speaker 2: doesn't want to come back or well, it doesn't matter 642 00:37:51,942 --> 00:37:55,662 Speaker 2: whether she does or she doesn't. I mean, she could 643 00:37:56,422 --> 00:38:00,702 Speaker 2: if you wanted to, but that recording is there for 644 00:38:01,142 --> 00:38:01,702 Speaker 2: the future. 645 00:38:03,502 --> 00:38:07,182 Speaker 1: You're listening to true crime conversations with me Jemma Bath. 646 00:38:07,622 --> 00:38:12,102 Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Australian barrister and prosecutor kneen Up. Next, 647 00:38:12,142 --> 00:38:14,142 Speaker 1: I ask Margaret about the release of one of the 648 00:38:14,182 --> 00:38:19,542 Speaker 1: more high profile members of the scaff Rapes. Do you 649 00:38:19,582 --> 00:38:22,022 Speaker 1: still read the headlines on the scaff story because they 650 00:38:22,022 --> 00:38:24,302 Speaker 1: are still popping up. You mentioned Muhammad before he was 651 00:38:24,342 --> 00:38:27,742 Speaker 1: released in twenty twenty three. 652 00:38:28,062 --> 00:38:29,942 Speaker 2: Yes, I like to see how everyone's going. 653 00:38:31,102 --> 00:38:33,582 Speaker 1: And we you know, we had another complainant come forward 654 00:38:33,582 --> 00:38:36,382 Speaker 1: a few years ago. She was all over the media. 655 00:38:36,982 --> 00:38:38,462 Speaker 1: You know, it was something that was such a big 656 00:38:38,502 --> 00:38:39,262 Speaker 1: part of your life. 657 00:38:39,702 --> 00:38:42,422 Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, well it was for a few years and 658 00:38:42,742 --> 00:38:46,022 Speaker 2: it certainly caused me well to be taken off. 659 00:38:46,142 --> 00:38:48,662 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a lot of your own. 660 00:38:49,542 --> 00:38:52,582 Speaker 2: But it's sort of embarrassing and yes, that's right. But 661 00:38:52,822 --> 00:38:56,182 Speaker 2: the good thing was that in the judgment, my whole 662 00:38:56,302 --> 00:39:01,222 Speaker 2: lecture is recorded, so I'm pretty proud. I'm still proud 663 00:39:01,222 --> 00:39:03,782 Speaker 2: of it and it's still a great lecture. And so 664 00:39:03,942 --> 00:39:06,182 Speaker 2: things happened for a reason. They might seem terrible at 665 00:39:06,222 --> 00:39:09,742 Speaker 2: the time, terribly offensive, but we have to get resilient 666 00:39:09,782 --> 00:39:13,222 Speaker 2: and go through that. In the course of professional life, 667 00:39:13,302 --> 00:39:16,542 Speaker 2: people see things differently I'm sure that wouldn't happen. Now 668 00:39:16,582 --> 00:39:20,262 Speaker 2: that's two thousand and seven. Imagine not being even given 669 00:39:20,262 --> 00:39:22,742 Speaker 2: the opportunity to be represented in a case like that, 670 00:39:22,822 --> 00:39:26,062 Speaker 2: which I wasn't wasn't asked question about it, wasn't asked 671 00:39:26,142 --> 00:39:30,422 Speaker 2: any explanation, wasn't given the opportunity, just was done and 672 00:39:30,502 --> 00:39:31,062 Speaker 2: I was off. 673 00:39:31,542 --> 00:39:33,982 Speaker 1: I want to ask about one of the cases you've 674 00:39:33,982 --> 00:39:37,302 Speaker 1: worked on in your second act in defense, Craig Faulbig. 675 00:39:37,662 --> 00:39:42,462 Speaker 1: People will know that name. Kathleen Folbig was sentenced in 676 00:39:42,502 --> 00:39:45,142 Speaker 1: the nineties or early two thousands for the murder and 677 00:39:45,222 --> 00:39:49,262 Speaker 1: man sort of her four children, and you came to 678 00:39:49,302 --> 00:39:51,782 Speaker 1: represent him in twenty eighteen. How did that come up? 679 00:39:51,782 --> 00:39:56,622 Speaker 2: I did. I was briefed by Craig Folbick's solicitor to 680 00:39:57,222 --> 00:40:01,862 Speaker 2: appear in an inquiry before Reg Blanche QC, who was 681 00:40:01,902 --> 00:40:06,342 Speaker 2: the first DPP, and he appointed me a Crown prosecutor 682 00:40:06,382 --> 00:40:09,982 Speaker 2: back in nineteen ninety and I'd worked for him as 683 00:40:10,022 --> 00:40:14,902 Speaker 2: a elicitor in the DPP and since its inception, and 684 00:40:14,942 --> 00:40:18,662 Speaker 2: so he was given the task of an inquiry into 685 00:40:18,702 --> 00:40:23,542 Speaker 2: the convictions of missus Folbig to see whether he agreed 686 00:40:23,582 --> 00:40:26,222 Speaker 2: with them, and so for the first time she was 687 00:40:26,342 --> 00:40:29,422 Speaker 2: cross examined. She hadn't been cross examined in her trials, 688 00:40:29,702 --> 00:40:34,982 Speaker 2: as was her right, And I was instructed by Craig, 689 00:40:35,262 --> 00:40:38,542 Speaker 2: and through his lawyer, I came to know Craig very well. 690 00:40:38,582 --> 00:40:41,422 Speaker 2: He's a very fine man, and on any view of it, 691 00:40:42,382 --> 00:40:46,782 Speaker 2: a victim, a victim of the loss of four children. 692 00:40:48,022 --> 00:40:52,022 Speaker 2: He died recently, did he. He died within the last year, 693 00:40:52,422 --> 00:40:55,862 Speaker 2: and he was quite young, still only in his fifties, 694 00:40:56,902 --> 00:40:59,462 Speaker 2: and he went on to have another child, a son, 695 00:40:59,542 --> 00:41:08,462 Speaker 2: with a new partner. But he died after the last decision. 696 00:41:08,982 --> 00:41:11,462 Speaker 1: So he saw Kathleen freed. Yes, it is something he 697 00:41:11,502 --> 00:41:12,582 Speaker 1: doesn't think should have happened. 698 00:41:12,622 --> 00:41:16,182 Speaker 2: That's very true. That's very true. And I have a 699 00:41:16,182 --> 00:41:20,942 Speaker 2: lot of insight from his suffering, and he told me 700 00:41:21,702 --> 00:41:24,702 Speaker 2: often how he kept trusting her and kept trusting her. 701 00:41:24,782 --> 00:41:29,262 Speaker 2: But anyway, we know what's happened since. However, I cross 702 00:41:29,302 --> 00:41:33,462 Speaker 2: examined her, and I cross examined her on her diaries. 703 00:41:34,702 --> 00:41:37,782 Speaker 2: There's a lot of damaging materials there. And at the 704 00:41:37,862 --> 00:41:42,902 Speaker 2: end of that inquiry, Justice Blanche decided that he was 705 00:41:42,942 --> 00:41:47,422 Speaker 2: more fortified in her guilt than had been the case 706 00:41:47,542 --> 00:41:49,782 Speaker 2: even up to the High Court. Really and that was 707 00:41:49,822 --> 00:41:53,182 Speaker 2: on the basis of a number of well on the 708 00:41:53,182 --> 00:41:57,782 Speaker 2: basis of her cross examination, and we knew about the 709 00:41:57,942 --> 00:42:02,622 Speaker 2: possible genetic difficulty suffered by two out of four of 710 00:42:02,622 --> 00:42:06,902 Speaker 2: the children. One of the children, he was found to 711 00:42:06,942 --> 00:42:11,142 Speaker 2: be not breathing Patrick early in his life life, but 712 00:42:11,262 --> 00:42:15,222 Speaker 2: he was saved for a while. He ended up blind 713 00:42:15,502 --> 00:42:20,502 Speaker 2: and epileptic until he died a few months later with 714 00:42:21,862 --> 00:42:25,422 Speaker 2: having stopped breathing. But anyway, there was a very big 715 00:42:25,542 --> 00:42:29,382 Speaker 2: scientific campaign, and well it. 716 00:42:29,342 --> 00:42:32,262 Speaker 1: Was interesting for you because you had not a small part, 717 00:42:32,302 --> 00:42:34,022 Speaker 1: but you kind of played a part in the middle there, 718 00:42:34,062 --> 00:42:35,742 Speaker 1: but not in the start and then at the end, 719 00:42:35,862 --> 00:42:37,822 Speaker 1: so you kind of got to see it all unravel. 720 00:42:38,302 --> 00:42:43,222 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, that's right. It was very interesting cross examination. 721 00:42:43,502 --> 00:42:46,422 Speaker 2: I think I cross examined this is fold big for 722 00:42:46,622 --> 00:42:48,222 Speaker 2: a day and a half and. 723 00:42:48,222 --> 00:42:50,582 Speaker 1: The first person to do so. Yes, I want to 724 00:42:50,582 --> 00:42:57,022 Speaker 1: bring up Ikak because half free up is very. 725 00:42:58,382 --> 00:42:59,462 Speaker 2: It makes me laugh. 726 00:43:00,222 --> 00:43:03,062 Speaker 1: Well, it was made into such a big deal. They 727 00:43:03,182 --> 00:43:05,542 Speaker 1: dug into your life. They splashed it all over the news. 728 00:43:05,782 --> 00:43:09,742 Speaker 1: It was, you know, your private life, which you've made 729 00:43:09,782 --> 00:43:13,422 Speaker 1: a very big deal to make leave private, was kind 730 00:43:13,462 --> 00:43:16,342 Speaker 1: of put out in the media all for them. To 731 00:43:16,542 --> 00:43:17,982 Speaker 1: work out that you've done nothing wrong. 732 00:43:18,182 --> 00:43:21,302 Speaker 2: That's right. In fact, it was totally misconceived from the 733 00:43:21,342 --> 00:43:27,382 Speaker 2: start because someone told them that somehow someone found out 734 00:43:27,622 --> 00:43:31,182 Speaker 2: that my son's then girlfriend had a crash and found 735 00:43:31,182 --> 00:43:34,742 Speaker 2: out that as it happened, she wasn't tested at the scene. 736 00:43:34,862 --> 00:43:37,342 Speaker 2: But that's because the crash was so bad the car 737 00:43:37,382 --> 00:43:39,302 Speaker 2: was written off. The ambulance came and took her to 738 00:43:39,342 --> 00:43:41,982 Speaker 2: the hospital where her blood was taken. Straight away. She 739 00:43:42,022 --> 00:43:45,902 Speaker 2: went by ambulance with lights and sirens and her blood 740 00:43:46,062 --> 00:43:49,462 Speaker 2: was taken. No alcohol, no drugs, and we knew that 741 00:43:49,542 --> 00:43:51,022 Speaker 2: on the night and. 742 00:43:51,182 --> 00:43:53,902 Speaker 1: For it to become part of an Eykak inquiry. 743 00:43:53,542 --> 00:43:56,342 Speaker 2: Yes, and that's right. And as I kept saying to them, 744 00:43:57,022 --> 00:43:59,062 Speaker 2: she was tested, she was tested, and they do you 745 00:43:59,102 --> 00:44:02,142 Speaker 2: know that? They is it? Well? I think they thought 746 00:44:02,222 --> 00:44:04,262 Speaker 2: that the police had helped me or something, but I 747 00:44:04,422 --> 00:44:08,182 Speaker 2: wasn't there and neither was my son. And her phone, 748 00:44:08,502 --> 00:44:12,222 Speaker 2: the driver's phone, was left in the car with her 749 00:44:12,262 --> 00:44:16,062 Speaker 2: handbag because the car writen was t bone. She was 750 00:44:16,102 --> 00:44:19,382 Speaker 2: pinned by the seat belts up on the side of 751 00:44:19,422 --> 00:44:23,462 Speaker 2: the car. She really did have chest pain when the 752 00:44:23,502 --> 00:44:28,142 Speaker 2: ambulance came. And that's that. But the timing has always 753 00:44:28,542 --> 00:44:33,262 Speaker 2: seemed very odd to me because I just completed a 754 00:44:33,342 --> 00:44:37,302 Speaker 2: stint of about eighteen months as a commissioner inquiring into 755 00:44:38,022 --> 00:44:44,662 Speaker 2: the investigations of pedophile priests in Newcastle historically, and I 756 00:44:44,942 --> 00:44:48,262 Speaker 2: just the day before this crash, I had given my 757 00:44:48,422 --> 00:44:51,902 Speaker 2: report to the Governor and so I was going back 758 00:44:51,902 --> 00:44:55,222 Speaker 2: to my job. But there were all these rumors swirling 759 00:44:55,262 --> 00:44:58,982 Speaker 2: about me being appointed as Supreme Court judge. Now Gemma, 760 00:44:59,702 --> 00:45:04,302 Speaker 2: I swear had I been offered, I would have said no, 761 00:45:05,702 --> 00:45:07,622 Speaker 2: and just by means of a little bit of proof 762 00:45:07,662 --> 00:45:10,302 Speaker 2: of that. In two thousand and seven, the then Attorney 763 00:45:10,822 --> 00:45:14,062 Speaker 2: John Hat's sister Goss who's now head of VIKAC, which 764 00:45:14,262 --> 00:45:16,382 Speaker 2: I think he's the best head they've ever had, frankly, 765 00:45:16,502 --> 00:45:19,582 Speaker 2: and things probably being done properly now there at last. 766 00:45:19,702 --> 00:45:22,502 Speaker 2: But in two thousand and seven I was rung up 767 00:45:22,542 --> 00:45:25,902 Speaker 2: by the Attorney General and he said, oh, well it's 768 00:45:25,982 --> 00:45:29,342 Speaker 2: your turn, District Court judge. You're going to take the appointment. 769 00:45:29,422 --> 00:45:32,622 Speaker 2: I said, no, what No one ever knocks us back. 770 00:45:32,622 --> 00:45:34,582 Speaker 2: And I said, oh I am And he said why 771 00:45:34,582 --> 00:45:37,222 Speaker 2: And I said, look, I don't think I'm really judged 772 00:45:37,262 --> 00:45:41,262 Speaker 2: material because whenever I'm doing a moot or something, and 773 00:45:41,742 --> 00:45:43,982 Speaker 2: one person speaks I think, yeah, that's really good, and 774 00:45:43,982 --> 00:45:46,382 Speaker 2: then the next person speaks on that's really good too. 775 00:45:46,422 --> 00:45:47,782 Speaker 1: And I can't do much empathy. 776 00:45:47,902 --> 00:45:50,982 Speaker 2: I can't even choose, and I want to give both 777 00:45:50,982 --> 00:45:54,062 Speaker 2: the prize. And I said, I really don't think that 778 00:45:54,462 --> 00:45:57,542 Speaker 2: I'm very good at judging. Just leave me on a side, 779 00:45:58,062 --> 00:46:01,382 Speaker 2: give me a side to work at four And that's 780 00:46:01,382 --> 00:46:02,102 Speaker 2: where I'm happy. 781 00:46:02,342 --> 00:46:05,302 Speaker 1: When you think about it, it's a very hard job, like, yes, 782 00:46:05,782 --> 00:46:08,982 Speaker 1: it's to me. It's that typical, like everyone expects you 783 00:46:08,982 --> 00:46:11,382 Speaker 1: to keep climbing the ladder and you're like, no, I'm happy. 784 00:46:12,262 --> 00:46:16,382 Speaker 2: Yeah laterally, that's right. I had a great career and 785 00:46:16,462 --> 00:46:19,222 Speaker 2: I loved it, and I wasn't too sure that i'd 786 00:46:19,422 --> 00:46:23,222 Speaker 2: like it. And you know, I already had my own 787 00:46:23,302 --> 00:46:26,982 Speaker 2: superannuation as a crawn prosecutor. A lot of people go 788 00:46:27,222 --> 00:46:29,462 Speaker 2: to be judges because if you do ten years, you 789 00:46:29,502 --> 00:46:32,782 Speaker 2: get superannuation, and that's why a lot of barristers will 790 00:46:32,862 --> 00:46:34,582 Speaker 2: leave the bar and go and do it. I think 791 00:46:35,342 --> 00:46:38,222 Speaker 2: I think that no one's told me that, but that 792 00:46:38,302 --> 00:46:40,582 Speaker 2: must be the attraction. But it didn't have that attraction 793 00:46:40,662 --> 00:46:44,182 Speaker 2: for me either, And everyone that I've known who's become 794 00:46:44,222 --> 00:46:47,502 Speaker 2: a judge. It's like losing your best friend to the 795 00:46:47,902 --> 00:46:51,142 Speaker 2: priesthood or the nunnery, because you basically never see them again, 796 00:46:51,222 --> 00:46:52,902 Speaker 2: certainly not in the same way. If you see them 797 00:46:52,902 --> 00:46:55,302 Speaker 2: at any function or something and you call them judge, 798 00:46:55,342 --> 00:46:58,662 Speaker 2: they don't correct you, and there's no more lunches or 799 00:46:58,742 --> 00:47:02,982 Speaker 2: drinks after work at the pub. They think that everyone's 800 00:47:02,982 --> 00:47:05,262 Speaker 2: going to be looking at them, and to one or 801 00:47:05,262 --> 00:47:06,942 Speaker 2: two I've said, don't worry, they won't be looking at you. 802 00:47:06,942 --> 00:47:11,342 Speaker 2: They'll be looking at me. I won't even notice you. 803 00:47:11,422 --> 00:47:14,862 Speaker 2: But no, they won't go. They sort of their lives 804 00:47:14,902 --> 00:47:18,622 Speaker 2: become a little more insular, which is pretty ironic because 805 00:47:19,222 --> 00:47:22,182 Speaker 2: what you need to do criminal law is to know 806 00:47:22,222 --> 00:47:24,742 Speaker 2: what's going on. And I got the bus here and 807 00:47:24,862 --> 00:47:27,982 Speaker 2: walk the rest of the way. I love getting public transport. 808 00:47:28,182 --> 00:47:33,222 Speaker 2: I love hanging around in ordinary department stores, grocery stores, pubs, 809 00:47:33,542 --> 00:47:37,142 Speaker 2: footy I love finding out what's really going on and 810 00:47:37,182 --> 00:47:39,222 Speaker 2: what's the use of just going around in a shaff 811 00:47:39,382 --> 00:47:41,342 Speaker 2: driven car not talking to anyone. 812 00:47:41,862 --> 00:47:45,102 Speaker 1: That's so interesting and interesting that you had that foresight, 813 00:47:45,182 --> 00:47:47,382 Speaker 1: And for them to be like, but why not, you're 814 00:47:47,502 --> 00:47:51,262 Speaker 1: turning is down? Yes, but this all happened as Ikak 815 00:47:51,422 --> 00:47:52,182 Speaker 1: was sniffing around. 816 00:47:52,222 --> 00:47:53,662 Speaker 2: Well, yes see how I changed the subject. 817 00:47:53,742 --> 00:47:56,382 Speaker 1: Then I did let us get back to it. But 818 00:47:56,462 --> 00:47:59,102 Speaker 1: you kind of a bit of a rat there, Well. 819 00:47:58,982 --> 00:48:00,662 Speaker 2: Oh, yes, that's right. I think that there may have 820 00:48:00,702 --> 00:48:04,342 Speaker 2: been forces at work here didn't want to see me. Well, 821 00:48:04,382 --> 00:48:07,582 Speaker 2: we had that in common. No one wanted me to 822 00:48:07,582 --> 00:48:10,622 Speaker 2: be a judge, mostly me. I think some people may 823 00:48:10,622 --> 00:48:12,622 Speaker 2: have wanted me to, but some people didn't want me 824 00:48:12,702 --> 00:48:15,542 Speaker 2: to be. And this and this was all just a 825 00:48:15,582 --> 00:48:19,182 Speaker 2: big distraction which had the inevitory when when it was 826 00:48:19,182 --> 00:48:23,302 Speaker 2: looked at by wealthy the Ikak inspector, who the person 827 00:48:23,342 --> 00:48:26,102 Speaker 2: who looks over k got hold of it straight away. 828 00:48:26,222 --> 00:48:28,942 Speaker 2: I didn't even have to ask him to. And he 829 00:48:29,022 --> 00:48:34,462 Speaker 2: initiated an investigation and found that they'd acted illegally, unjustly, 830 00:48:34,702 --> 00:48:39,102 Speaker 2: unfairly and with great prejudice against my family and me. 831 00:48:39,662 --> 00:48:43,262 Speaker 2: And so there's a very damning report and that. But 832 00:48:43,342 --> 00:48:49,142 Speaker 2: then even when a person there persisted on such personal basis, 833 00:48:49,182 --> 00:48:52,382 Speaker 2: someone I'd known for ages anyway and worked with for ages, 834 00:48:52,422 --> 00:48:55,742 Speaker 2: but persisted and tried to get my boss to punish 835 00:48:55,822 --> 00:48:59,062 Speaker 2: me for something to do with a phone by taking 836 00:48:59,062 --> 00:49:03,182 Speaker 2: all these phone messages and engineering a bias against me. 837 00:49:04,862 --> 00:49:07,782 Speaker 2: So it sort of kept going on, but luckily it 838 00:49:07,862 --> 00:49:12,622 Speaker 2: was sent to an independent, kidding body in Victoria and 839 00:49:12,662 --> 00:49:16,382 Speaker 2: the result came back there is nothing, no illegality by 840 00:49:16,782 --> 00:49:19,502 Speaker 2: miss Kneen or any member of her family. And you 841 00:49:19,542 --> 00:49:25,062 Speaker 2: know that some some newspapers never print that, but some do. 842 00:49:25,062 --> 00:49:26,862 Speaker 1: Does it make you angry when you think back on. 843 00:49:26,822 --> 00:49:31,902 Speaker 2: It a little bit, But look, everyone's everyone's life has 844 00:49:31,942 --> 00:49:35,382 Speaker 2: hardships in it. And even when that was happening and 845 00:49:35,422 --> 00:49:38,942 Speaker 2: I was suspended from work and I was you know, 846 00:49:39,302 --> 00:49:41,502 Speaker 2: I was well, I was mainly worried because they were 847 00:49:42,022 --> 00:49:44,742 Speaker 2: dragging my family through it. And that's a tactic by 848 00:49:45,262 --> 00:49:49,022 Speaker 2: bodies like iye CAC because if there was actually any evidence, 849 00:49:49,222 --> 00:49:51,782 Speaker 2: it goes straight to the police, wouldn't it if of 850 00:49:52,062 --> 00:49:55,702 Speaker 2: criminality and the police had said, well there's nothing to 851 00:49:55,702 --> 00:49:59,022 Speaker 2: see here, there's so but that put that's made I 852 00:49:59,142 --> 00:50:01,462 Speaker 2: CAC go after the police there and quiz them. But 853 00:50:02,902 --> 00:50:06,142 Speaker 2: so I cacks only exist when there's no evidence. And 854 00:50:06,182 --> 00:50:08,782 Speaker 2: so the way one of their tactics is to put 855 00:50:08,822 --> 00:50:11,822 Speaker 2: pressure on all their family only members by coming into 856 00:50:11,822 --> 00:50:16,422 Speaker 2: the homes and going through everyone's stuff and surveilling family 857 00:50:16,422 --> 00:50:21,462 Speaker 2: members to try to make the target go. Make it stop, Okay, 858 00:50:21,542 --> 00:50:24,942 Speaker 2: I admit everything, just stop against my family. But luckily 859 00:50:25,262 --> 00:50:30,102 Speaker 2: my family is a praetorian guard and we're a martial 860 00:50:30,182 --> 00:50:33,782 Speaker 2: arts family and a boxing family, and they all just 861 00:50:33,782 --> 00:50:36,702 Speaker 2: just keep fighting, you know, don't worry, We're all in it' 862 00:50:37,102 --> 00:50:37,542 Speaker 2: all fight. 863 00:50:37,902 --> 00:50:41,622 Speaker 1: Well, they picked the wrong family, but you know. 864 00:50:41,822 --> 00:50:44,382 Speaker 2: And luckily they're not a family who looked at me 865 00:50:44,422 --> 00:50:47,662 Speaker 2: and said, oh, you know, what have you done? Oh 866 00:50:47,702 --> 00:50:50,422 Speaker 2: I'm so embarrassed by you. They just got prouder and 867 00:50:50,462 --> 00:50:51,102 Speaker 2: prouder of me. 868 00:50:51,702 --> 00:50:54,302 Speaker 1: But to me, it seems that you kept getting this 869 00:50:54,422 --> 00:50:58,302 Speaker 1: target on your back when you would speak out about something. 870 00:50:58,382 --> 00:51:01,182 Speaker 1: You would kind of question processes, or you would be like, hey, 871 00:51:02,022 --> 00:51:03,222 Speaker 1: why don't we do this differently? 872 00:51:03,382 --> 00:51:06,142 Speaker 2: Or well, that's right, Isn't it kind of ironic that 873 00:51:06,582 --> 00:51:10,102 Speaker 2: I was speaking up for victims of rape having such 874 00:51:10,102 --> 00:51:12,302 Speaker 2: a hard time and having to go back to courts 875 00:51:12,342 --> 00:51:15,662 Speaker 2: over and over again and being treated so badly because 876 00:51:16,022 --> 00:51:20,742 Speaker 2: certain people in the system who would now totally agree 877 00:51:20,782 --> 00:51:23,742 Speaker 2: with that hadn't yet come around to it, and that 878 00:51:23,942 --> 00:51:27,622 Speaker 2: might be taking the credit for it when I was 879 00:51:28,062 --> 00:51:31,422 Speaker 2: really pilloried for it. In fact, even down to being 880 00:51:32,462 --> 00:51:37,102 Speaker 2: questioned by people who may be ashamed of it. Now, 881 00:51:37,942 --> 00:51:43,062 Speaker 2: these prosecutions are just racist prosecutions because they're nice white 882 00:51:43,102 --> 00:51:46,502 Speaker 2: girls with blonde hair, and so you're just for Aussies 883 00:51:46,582 --> 00:51:51,462 Speaker 2: and against Lebanese people. This is terrible. I was able 884 00:51:51,502 --> 00:51:54,302 Speaker 2: to say when I was asked that question by people 885 00:51:54,302 --> 00:51:59,822 Speaker 2: who surprised me when they asked it, namely women's groups. 886 00:52:00,622 --> 00:52:03,502 Speaker 2: I said, why do you say that they're blonde haired girl? Oh? 887 00:52:03,582 --> 00:52:06,982 Speaker 2: I saw one on a current affair. Well, actually she's 888 00:52:07,022 --> 00:52:09,742 Speaker 2: an Aboriginal woman who was wearing a blonde wig and 889 00:52:10,022 --> 00:52:15,502 Speaker 2: green contacts to disguise her appearance. And when she was 890 00:52:15,542 --> 00:52:19,542 Speaker 2: first spoken to on the train by Mohammed scaff He, 891 00:52:20,142 --> 00:52:24,262 Speaker 2: noting that it's not entirely clear what her ethnic derivation is, 892 00:52:24,302 --> 00:52:28,182 Speaker 2: he said to her, are you an Aussy? Where do 893 00:52:28,262 --> 00:52:30,702 Speaker 2: you come from? And she said, I'm as Australian as 894 00:52:30,742 --> 00:52:36,222 Speaker 2: they come, So that'll tell them yes. So yeah, yeah, 895 00:52:36,702 --> 00:52:40,942 Speaker 2: that kind of quietened the group down. 896 00:52:41,182 --> 00:52:42,102 Speaker 1: What's next for you? 897 00:52:44,982 --> 00:52:46,902 Speaker 2: Thanks? Some people say when are you going to retire? 898 00:52:46,902 --> 00:52:50,902 Speaker 2: And I say, do you think I should know? What's that? Well? 899 00:52:51,222 --> 00:52:53,902 Speaker 2: Thanks for asking, Jemma, I am going to I've got 900 00:52:53,942 --> 00:52:57,022 Speaker 2: a pretty full book of trials. Right into the next year, 901 00:52:57,342 --> 00:53:00,662 Speaker 2: and as it keeps happening, people are still asking me 902 00:53:00,702 --> 00:53:02,982 Speaker 2: for trials that will probably go into the year after that, 903 00:53:03,702 --> 00:53:07,982 Speaker 2: and so I figure that the clientele will decide when 904 00:53:07,982 --> 00:53:12,382 Speaker 2: I've had enough, because I've seen people be too old 905 00:53:12,382 --> 00:53:15,182 Speaker 2: for this job, although it's a great job for an 906 00:53:15,182 --> 00:53:20,462 Speaker 2: older person, because juries trust your wisdom, and especially if 907 00:53:20,542 --> 00:53:25,502 Speaker 2: you can render the stories in the common parlance, which 908 00:53:25,542 --> 00:53:29,262 Speaker 2: I think I can. From gosh, I spent a lot 909 00:53:29,302 --> 00:53:34,582 Speaker 2: of time in pubs drinking beers with my kids and 910 00:53:34,622 --> 00:53:38,702 Speaker 2: their mates mentees as well, and that's exactly right. As 911 00:53:38,742 --> 00:53:41,342 Speaker 2: long as you keep in touch, it's still a great advantage. 912 00:53:41,342 --> 00:53:43,942 Speaker 2: It's a job where being old is quite an advantage, 913 00:53:43,982 --> 00:53:47,502 Speaker 2: but it starts to run out, and I hope I'll 914 00:53:47,502 --> 00:53:49,742 Speaker 2: have the sense to know that I'm getting a bit 915 00:53:49,822 --> 00:53:52,102 Speaker 2: past it in maybe ten years. 916 00:53:56,742 --> 00:53:59,182 Speaker 1: Thanks to Margaret for helping us to tell this story 917 00:53:59,262 --> 00:54:03,102 Speaker 1: and for sharing so much of her own true crime conversations. 918 00:54:03,262 --> 00:54:05,902 Speaker 1: Is a Muma mea podcast hosted and produced by Me, 919 00:54:06,022 --> 00:54:09,902 Speaker 1: Jimma Bath and Tarlie Blackman, with audio design by Jacob Brown. 920 00:54:10,582 --> 00:54:12,542 Speaker 1: And a huge thank you to all of you, our 921 00:54:12,622 --> 00:54:14,942 Speaker 1: amazing listeners. We're so grateful to have you back for 922 00:54:14,982 --> 00:54:17,742 Speaker 1: another year of the podcast. We'd love to hear your 923 00:54:17,782 --> 00:54:21,342 Speaker 1: thoughts on the show. Your feedback means so much to us. 924 00:54:21,542 --> 00:54:23,622 Speaker 1: One easy way to share your thoughts is by leaving 925 00:54:23,622 --> 00:54:26,542 Speaker 1: a review on Apple Podcasts. Just scroll down to the 926 00:54:26,582 --> 00:54:29,542 Speaker 1: bottom of your podcast page, click write a review, and 927 00:54:29,622 --> 00:54:32,622 Speaker 1: add a star rating. You can also contact us direct 928 00:54:32,862 --> 00:54:36,622 Speaker 1: at Truecrime at mamamea dot com dot au. Thanks so 929 00:54:36,702 --> 00:54:39,222 Speaker 1: much for listening. I'll be back next week with another 930 00:54:39,262 --> 00:54:40,422 Speaker 1: true Crime Conversation.