1 00:00:10,622 --> 00:00:13,341 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 2 00:00:13,822 --> 00:00:17,182 Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:17,222 --> 00:00:26,542 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to 4 00:00:26,622 --> 00:00:29,742 Speaker 2: Parenting Out Loud. I am Jesse Stevens and I am 5 00:00:29,822 --> 00:00:33,582 Speaker 2: joined by Amelia Lester. We are embarking on a mini 6 00:00:33,622 --> 00:00:37,062 Speaker 2: series all about what's happening this week through the lens 7 00:00:37,142 --> 00:00:39,942 Speaker 2: of being a parent. And to be clear, we are 8 00:00:39,982 --> 00:00:42,101 Speaker 2: not going to be talking about wheatbits in our hair 9 00:00:42,182 --> 00:00:44,822 Speaker 2: or vomit on our shirts. This is not your mother's group. 10 00:00:45,022 --> 00:00:47,342 Speaker 2: It's a series that we hope will make your world 11 00:00:47,422 --> 00:00:50,582 Speaker 2: feel just a little bit bigger. In short, if parents 12 00:00:50,582 --> 00:00:54,142 Speaker 2: are thinking about it, we are talking about it. Welcome 13 00:00:54,462 --> 00:00:57,182 Speaker 2: Amelia Lester. How old are your kids now? 14 00:00:57,422 --> 00:01:00,182 Speaker 1: My kids are five and seven. They're both in school, 15 00:01:00,382 --> 00:01:04,102 Speaker 1: which has given me an unexpected sense of order and 16 00:01:04,142 --> 00:01:06,862 Speaker 1: serenity because I know where they'll be most days and 17 00:01:06,902 --> 00:01:09,422 Speaker 1: I don't have to think about it anymore. And it's 18 00:01:09,661 --> 00:01:12,582 Speaker 1: not all the day care fees. No, it's very cost efficient. 19 00:01:12,822 --> 00:01:15,062 Speaker 1: I moved back to Australia from the US, where I 20 00:01:15,222 --> 00:01:17,581 Speaker 1: spent the last twenty years on and off last year, 21 00:01:17,942 --> 00:01:19,742 Speaker 1: and I guess I should say that in my day 22 00:01:19,822 --> 00:01:21,462 Speaker 1: job while my children are at school. 23 00:01:21,502 --> 00:01:25,382 Speaker 2: I am a journalist and I have a toddler as 24 00:01:25,382 --> 00:01:27,222 Speaker 2: well as a niece who I claim as my own. 25 00:01:27,702 --> 00:01:30,102 Speaker 2: And you may know my voice from Mummy are out 26 00:01:30,102 --> 00:01:32,982 Speaker 2: Loud or I also hosted The Baby Bubble recently with 27 00:01:32,982 --> 00:01:35,862 Speaker 2: my twin sister Claire and Hello Bump, which is all 28 00:01:35,902 --> 00:01:39,102 Speaker 2: about pregnancy. I'm on Mummeyre out Loud thirty three times 29 00:01:39,142 --> 00:01:42,182 Speaker 2: a week, so I'm sure you know me well. On 30 00:01:42,262 --> 00:01:46,542 Speaker 2: today's show, the grandparents are not okay. In fact, they're 31 00:01:46,542 --> 00:01:50,102 Speaker 2: reaching their limit. Since when did grandparenting become a full 32 00:01:50,102 --> 00:01:53,942 Speaker 2: time job? Plus the boy who came back, the searingly 33 00:01:53,982 --> 00:01:57,062 Speaker 2: honest article that got us thinking about what it means 34 00:01:57,502 --> 00:02:00,422 Speaker 2: when your world as a parent implodes and the reaction 35 00:02:00,662 --> 00:02:05,302 Speaker 2: of the people around you. But first, Mormon wives, We've 36 00:02:05,302 --> 00:02:07,982 Speaker 2: got Ballerina Fum, We've got this secret lives of Mormon wives, 37 00:02:08,022 --> 00:02:09,262 Speaker 2: We've got tradwife culture. 38 00:02:09,542 --> 00:02:12,302 Speaker 1: People keep grabbing my arm and telling me I have 39 00:02:12,422 --> 00:02:15,702 Speaker 1: to watch this, And as someone who loves selling Sunset, 40 00:02:15,781 --> 00:02:19,222 Speaker 1: but that's kind of the extent of my reality TV immersion, 41 00:02:19,302 --> 00:02:23,062 Speaker 1: I need you to explain why it's suddenly the zeitgeist. 42 00:02:23,302 --> 00:02:26,262 Speaker 2: I have looked at what it is about this moment 43 00:02:26,422 --> 00:02:30,262 Speaker 2: that has made Mormon culture so prominent, right because there 44 00:02:30,342 --> 00:02:32,621 Speaker 2: was an article in the Washington Post end of last 45 00:02:32,662 --> 00:02:36,502 Speaker 2: year which was all about how twenty twenty four was 46 00:02:36,542 --> 00:02:40,502 Speaker 2: the year of Mormon women specifically, and this is what 47 00:02:40,502 --> 00:02:43,142 Speaker 2: the article said that Mormonism, and to be clear, that's 48 00:02:43,222 --> 00:02:45,862 Speaker 2: the theology of the Church of Jesus Christ in the 49 00:02:45,942 --> 00:02:48,822 Speaker 2: Latter day Saints, and it emphasizes a Christian view of 50 00:02:48,862 --> 00:02:52,782 Speaker 2: God and Jesus while incorporating sort of unique doctrines and practices. 51 00:02:52,862 --> 00:02:55,742 Speaker 2: So as someone who grew up Catholic, recognize some things, 52 00:02:55,822 --> 00:02:59,982 Speaker 2: don't recognize a lot. But it pairs very well with 53 00:03:00,302 --> 00:03:02,422 Speaker 2: social media and capitalism. 54 00:03:02,502 --> 00:03:05,142 Speaker 1: But isn't it like all about not drinking coffee or 55 00:03:05,181 --> 00:03:07,822 Speaker 1: alcohol and wearing odd undergarments? 56 00:03:07,982 --> 00:03:10,462 Speaker 2: Yes, well, I think that the That's what's interesting is 57 00:03:10,502 --> 00:03:13,982 Speaker 2: the way in which it is engaging with the present moment, 58 00:03:14,102 --> 00:03:18,342 Speaker 2: right because part of Mormonism is about the performance of purity. 59 00:03:18,462 --> 00:03:21,862 Speaker 2: It's about performance, which obviously lends itself to social media. 60 00:03:21,902 --> 00:03:25,342 Speaker 2: It is about perfectionism, which you'll see in like a 61 00:03:25,502 --> 00:03:30,502 Speaker 2: Ballerina farm representation, where it's all the matching clothes of 62 00:03:30,502 --> 00:03:33,262 Speaker 2: the kids and the beautiful hair and the beautiful home, 63 00:03:33,382 --> 00:03:35,742 Speaker 2: and there's something quite alluring about that. 64 00:03:35,942 --> 00:03:37,302 Speaker 1: So Ballerina farmers Mormon. 65 00:03:37,462 --> 00:03:40,462 Speaker 2: Yes. And it's the prairie dress as well, which is 66 00:03:40,502 --> 00:03:43,942 Speaker 2: there's something that feels quite nostalgic about it because in 67 00:03:44,142 --> 00:03:47,862 Speaker 2: the US, probably even more than here, but in Australia too, 68 00:03:48,422 --> 00:03:51,982 Speaker 2: parents are kind of broken. So the idea that you 69 00:03:52,142 --> 00:03:55,542 Speaker 2: live in this stunning farmhouse with all the kids you 70 00:03:55,542 --> 00:03:59,302 Speaker 2: could ever want, and you barely need to leave the house, yes, 71 00:03:59,502 --> 00:04:02,702 Speaker 2: really works in I'm in. And the other thing is 72 00:04:02,702 --> 00:04:05,742 Speaker 2: that Mormon women traditionally are not meant to work outside 73 00:04:05,782 --> 00:04:09,142 Speaker 2: the home. Now social media has given them a loophole 74 00:04:09,662 --> 00:04:11,302 Speaker 2: means that they can work. They can actually make a 75 00:04:11,542 --> 00:04:14,382 Speaker 2: heap of money and never walk out their front door. 76 00:04:14,902 --> 00:04:17,742 Speaker 2: So they're doing the cooking and the sewing and all 77 00:04:17,741 --> 00:04:22,062 Speaker 2: of that quite aspirational stuff and we're or consuming it 78 00:04:22,462 --> 00:04:26,902 Speaker 2: and making money is part of Mormonism in a way, 79 00:04:26,941 --> 00:04:28,702 Speaker 2: it's not part of Catholicism. 80 00:04:28,861 --> 00:04:29,061 Speaker 1: Right. 81 00:04:29,142 --> 00:04:31,662 Speaker 2: It's like God blessed you if you walk around with 82 00:04:31,702 --> 00:04:32,662 Speaker 2: something very fancy. 83 00:04:32,702 --> 00:04:37,741 Speaker 1: And because it's very intertwined with it's a very American religion. 84 00:04:37,782 --> 00:04:40,342 Speaker 1: It was fun in the United States I believe in 85 00:04:40,421 --> 00:04:43,662 Speaker 1: Upstate New York. I have seen the Book of Mormon. Yes, 86 00:04:44,101 --> 00:04:46,861 Speaker 1: so I bringing back knowledge to this and it makes 87 00:04:46,861 --> 00:04:49,902 Speaker 1: sense that therefore it would be more comfortable with capitalism. 88 00:04:49,981 --> 00:04:53,422 Speaker 1: So is this show about them sort of performing their 89 00:04:53,421 --> 00:04:56,061 Speaker 1: purity on social media because that sounds a bit boring. 90 00:04:56,301 --> 00:05:00,421 Speaker 2: Well, I think that it's about the hypocrisy, and I 91 00:05:00,421 --> 00:05:03,222 Speaker 2: suppose this is what makes it an interesting rich text 92 00:05:03,262 --> 00:05:05,342 Speaker 2: on social is that we know what the doctrine says, 93 00:05:05,381 --> 00:05:08,141 Speaker 2: and we know what the Bible says, and then you've 94 00:05:08,181 --> 00:05:11,262 Speaker 2: got people putting both in their face, or drinking lots 95 00:05:11,262 --> 00:05:14,261 Speaker 2: of soft drink, or doing. 96 00:05:13,621 --> 00:05:17,541 Speaker 1: Lots of soft drinks. My god, this is crazy talk Jesse. 97 00:05:18,142 --> 00:05:20,621 Speaker 2: Or doing certain drugs. It's like the loopholes that they 98 00:05:20,702 --> 00:05:25,941 Speaker 2: find while also looking stunning. And also I read this 99 00:05:26,061 --> 00:05:29,101 Speaker 2: line in The Atlantic recently that said America loves mothers 100 00:05:29,142 --> 00:05:32,901 Speaker 2: more than it loves women, and I thought, there's something 101 00:05:32,941 --> 00:05:37,181 Speaker 2: about these Mormon mothers that we find particularly aspirational. If 102 00:05:37,222 --> 00:05:39,501 Speaker 2: you're in that, then you get a lot more license 103 00:05:39,941 --> 00:05:43,101 Speaker 2: to sort of muck around with the other stuff. But 104 00:05:43,181 --> 00:05:44,902 Speaker 2: it does make it addictive. 105 00:05:45,621 --> 00:05:50,181 Speaker 1: I also read that there's a whole subplot of something 106 00:05:50,222 --> 00:05:55,021 Speaker 1: called soft swinging, yes, And I don't think they mean playgrounds. 107 00:05:54,861 --> 00:05:58,221 Speaker 2: No, no. And I think that it's like there are rules, 108 00:05:58,301 --> 00:05:59,861 Speaker 2: but they're weird rules. 109 00:05:59,702 --> 00:06:02,701 Speaker 1: Right, And I think part of this also, I agreed 110 00:06:02,782 --> 00:06:05,861 Speaker 1: completely on the tadwife element, and it so speaks to 111 00:06:05,902 --> 00:06:08,541 Speaker 1: the anxieties of our times and not knowing whether the 112 00:06:08,662 --> 00:06:11,701 Speaker 1: robot overlord's going to take over, that we're all diving 113 00:06:11,741 --> 00:06:14,222 Speaker 1: deep on people who are perfecting their bread recipes. But 114 00:06:14,582 --> 00:06:17,222 Speaker 1: the soft swinging, I think is also part of an 115 00:06:17,262 --> 00:06:22,301 Speaker 1: exploration of polyamory that is happening amongst elder millennials right now. 116 00:06:22,741 --> 00:06:23,861 Speaker 1: Oh so true. 117 00:06:24,142 --> 00:06:26,822 Speaker 2: And that's the thing is that Mormon wife slash Mormon 118 00:06:26,861 --> 00:06:30,182 Speaker 2: women are mothers, but they get to be sexy. And 119 00:06:30,222 --> 00:06:33,462 Speaker 2: we'd all like to still be a bit sexy. But 120 00:06:33,582 --> 00:06:37,222 Speaker 2: this vision of motherhood that we've been left with is 121 00:06:37,342 --> 00:06:42,381 Speaker 2: kind of like your asexual, your drab, And so there 122 00:06:42,421 --> 00:06:44,941 Speaker 2: is something that feels almost aspirational, being like, look at 123 00:06:44,941 --> 00:06:47,741 Speaker 2: their incredible sex lives. Yes, and they're pretty and they're 124 00:06:47,741 --> 00:06:48,382 Speaker 2: great mums. 125 00:06:48,462 --> 00:06:51,101 Speaker 1: It's prairie a dressment make it sexy. It makes total 126 00:06:51,142 --> 00:06:55,501 Speaker 1: sense to me. Now are grandparents underperforming? It's time for 127 00:06:55,541 --> 00:06:59,022 Speaker 1: a performance review. A recent article in The Atlantic unpacks 128 00:06:59,061 --> 00:07:02,662 Speaker 1: a sentiment amongst millennials that their parents are not chipping 129 00:07:02,662 --> 00:07:05,662 Speaker 1: in enough to help with their families. But then it 130 00:07:05,821 --> 00:07:09,342 Speaker 1: argues that contrary to that perception, grandparents are doing a lot, 131 00:07:09,662 --> 00:07:11,662 Speaker 1: doing more than ever. In fact, we're in the era 132 00:07:11,782 --> 00:07:15,821 Speaker 1: of something called peak grandparenting. Let me outline this argument 133 00:07:15,821 --> 00:07:17,902 Speaker 1: because I'm very curious to see whether you agree, Jesse. 134 00:07:18,462 --> 00:07:22,101 Speaker 1: It argues that parents struggle has become grandparents struggle because 135 00:07:22,142 --> 00:07:25,102 Speaker 1: grandparents now aren't just the disciplinarians or the playmates that 136 00:07:25,142 --> 00:07:27,782 Speaker 1: they used to be, but they're co parents. And a 137 00:07:27,821 --> 00:07:31,141 Speaker 1: sociologists quoted in the article says that grandparents fall into 138 00:07:31,142 --> 00:07:33,662 Speaker 1: three categories. You're ready for them. Yes, there are those 139 00:07:33,702 --> 00:07:36,542 Speaker 1: who look for every opportunity to look after their grandkids. 140 00:07:36,662 --> 00:07:38,261 Speaker 1: Those people are called Anne Stevens. 141 00:07:38,381 --> 00:07:42,102 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly right. That is my mother to a TEA. 142 00:07:42,462 --> 00:07:44,982 Speaker 1: Second category those who don't want to do any care 143 00:07:45,022 --> 00:07:47,782 Speaker 1: of grandkids. I don't actually know many grandparents who fit 144 00:07:47,782 --> 00:07:48,262 Speaker 1: this description. 145 00:07:48,342 --> 00:07:49,182 Speaker 2: I do, and we'll get to them. 146 00:07:49,262 --> 00:07:51,982 Speaker 1: Okay, good, Yeah. And a third category, which I really 147 00:07:52,062 --> 00:07:54,302 Speaker 1: that's what I want to talk about today, is grandparents 148 00:07:54,342 --> 00:07:57,102 Speaker 1: who want to be involved, but they also want to 149 00:07:57,182 --> 00:08:01,742 Speaker 1: set boundaries. Some strategies that these grandparents try. They commit 150 00:08:01,821 --> 00:08:03,862 Speaker 1: only to doing fun things with the kids. That means 151 00:08:03,902 --> 00:08:06,862 Speaker 1: no dentist visits, no math tutoring, just the fun stuff. 152 00:08:07,342 --> 00:08:10,782 Speaker 1: They semi regularly ignore their adult child calls and they 153 00:08:10,821 --> 00:08:14,022 Speaker 1: help out only on certain days, and they do this 154 00:08:14,262 --> 00:08:17,821 Speaker 1: because they're tie it. It's only very recently that we've 155 00:08:17,821 --> 00:08:21,182 Speaker 1: developed this idea that grandparents should be always available. And 156 00:08:21,302 --> 00:08:23,902 Speaker 1: oh yeah, looking back on my childhood in the nineties, 157 00:08:23,941 --> 00:08:26,382 Speaker 1: I realized that was true. It's a very recent phenomenon. 158 00:08:26,782 --> 00:08:28,982 Speaker 1: It's basically happened for reasons you might expect. A lot 159 00:08:28,982 --> 00:08:32,222 Speaker 1: more people are working outside the home now, parenting itself 160 00:08:32,222 --> 00:08:36,662 Speaker 1: has intensified and people are living longer. So Jesse, what 161 00:08:37,022 --> 00:08:39,902 Speaker 1: do you make of this rise of grandparenting as a 162 00:08:39,902 --> 00:08:41,942 Speaker 1: full time job? And what do you say to these 163 00:08:41,982 --> 00:08:44,822 Speaker 1: grandparents who say, I love to be around my grandchildren, 164 00:08:44,862 --> 00:08:46,662 Speaker 1: but I also need my me time. 165 00:08:47,142 --> 00:08:49,142 Speaker 2: I worry about the ones who don't have the guts 166 00:08:49,182 --> 00:08:51,022 Speaker 2: to say that, because I think that you can easily 167 00:08:51,062 --> 00:08:54,542 Speaker 2: be exploited and then feel very exploited. But we talk 168 00:08:54,582 --> 00:08:58,342 Speaker 2: about the Sandwich generation, right, the generation that has elderly 169 00:08:58,662 --> 00:09:03,382 Speaker 2: parents who might require care and kids. But now there's 170 00:09:03,542 --> 00:09:06,902 Speaker 2: like a club sandwich generation, which is that those kids 171 00:09:06,942 --> 00:09:11,302 Speaker 2: have grandkids. So they're kind of smushed between these three generations. 172 00:09:11,662 --> 00:09:13,822 Speaker 2: And let's be honest who we're talking about here. Are 173 00:09:13,862 --> 00:09:16,502 Speaker 2: we talking about grandparents or are we talking about grandmothers? 174 00:09:16,982 --> 00:09:20,022 Speaker 2: Because the economy relies in order for mothers to go 175 00:09:20,102 --> 00:09:23,342 Speaker 2: back to work, they require their mothers or their in 176 00:09:23,422 --> 00:09:27,942 Speaker 2: laws to give up some paid work, to give up, 177 00:09:28,022 --> 00:09:32,542 Speaker 2: whether it's exercise, whether it's socializing, all of those things 178 00:09:32,582 --> 00:09:36,422 Speaker 2: which are like sacrifices after having done that for a 179 00:09:36,422 --> 00:09:39,862 Speaker 2: period of their lives, which is a big ask. So 180 00:09:39,942 --> 00:09:42,422 Speaker 2: I think that the economy and I remember, I think 181 00:09:42,462 --> 00:09:44,782 Speaker 2: it was last year jd. Vance was being asked about 182 00:09:44,822 --> 00:09:48,062 Speaker 2: the situation in the US and he said, maybe grandparents 183 00:09:48,102 --> 00:09:50,902 Speaker 2: could step up more. So you want them to fill 184 00:09:51,942 --> 00:09:54,582 Speaker 2: holes in the economy or the fact that childcare is 185 00:09:54,622 --> 00:09:58,782 Speaker 2: prohibitively expensive, or that every family requires two parents to 186 00:09:58,822 --> 00:10:02,182 Speaker 2: be working pretty close to full time. You're then relying 187 00:10:02,182 --> 00:10:06,982 Speaker 2: on the unpaid work of this generation. I think it's 188 00:10:07,022 --> 00:10:11,062 Speaker 2: about how much of it is a choice, right, Because 189 00:10:11,102 --> 00:10:14,102 Speaker 2: in some situations, if you've got a mum who says 190 00:10:14,302 --> 00:10:16,462 Speaker 2: we can't pay the bills, unless I go back five 191 00:10:16,542 --> 00:10:22,102 Speaker 2: days and you have someone in their seventies doing five 192 00:10:22,182 --> 00:10:25,582 Speaker 2: days a week like that is an enormous ask. And 193 00:10:25,662 --> 00:10:29,302 Speaker 2: I don't think culturally we've decided yet whether child rearing 194 00:10:29,902 --> 00:10:32,382 Speaker 2: is work or not. Like I think that our conception 195 00:10:32,462 --> 00:10:35,982 Speaker 2: of work is really like confused to an extent. 196 00:10:36,222 --> 00:10:36,982 Speaker 1: That's so true. 197 00:10:37,062 --> 00:10:40,982 Speaker 2: What's your relationship like with your parents and help? 198 00:10:41,422 --> 00:10:46,582 Speaker 1: Well, this article really opened my mind because I moved 199 00:10:46,822 --> 00:10:51,342 Speaker 1: from the US back to Australia last year in part 200 00:10:51,422 --> 00:10:54,022 Speaker 1: because I wanted to spend more time with my parents, 201 00:10:54,062 --> 00:10:55,942 Speaker 1: and I wanted my children to spend more time with 202 00:10:55,982 --> 00:11:00,182 Speaker 1: my parents. And that has been such a rich and 203 00:11:00,262 --> 00:11:04,182 Speaker 1: rewarding experience I think for all parties, and I think 204 00:11:04,222 --> 00:11:07,582 Speaker 1: for all parties, it has also been a challenging experience. 205 00:11:07,782 --> 00:11:12,222 Speaker 1: It's been both those things in part because my parents 206 00:11:12,222 --> 00:11:13,942 Speaker 1: have had to make trade offs. I don't want to 207 00:11:13,942 --> 00:11:17,862 Speaker 1: speak for them, but I can see and observe that, yes, 208 00:11:17,942 --> 00:11:21,622 Speaker 1: they have gained the company and the friendship with their 209 00:11:21,622 --> 00:11:24,982 Speaker 1: grandchildren that is so special, which can't be nurtured in 210 00:11:25,502 --> 00:11:29,102 Speaker 1: once a year trips, but they've also had to give 211 00:11:29,142 --> 00:11:31,782 Speaker 1: some things up. So the first and biggest thing they've 212 00:11:31,782 --> 00:11:34,142 Speaker 1: had to give up is they're retired. They used to 213 00:11:34,222 --> 00:11:37,222 Speaker 1: enjoy traveling. They kind of feel like they can't travel 214 00:11:37,262 --> 00:11:40,502 Speaker 1: like they used to now because I need them because 215 00:11:40,782 --> 00:11:44,542 Speaker 1: both my partner and I work full time, and although 216 00:11:44,542 --> 00:11:46,902 Speaker 1: both my children are in school, there's just so many 217 00:11:46,982 --> 00:11:50,022 Speaker 1: cracks that you have to paper over or stand over. 218 00:11:50,102 --> 00:11:52,822 Speaker 1: And so, for instance, anytime one of my kids is sick, 219 00:11:53,702 --> 00:11:56,942 Speaker 1: I call them, and I hate doing that because when 220 00:11:56,982 --> 00:12:00,062 Speaker 1: it comes to planned social events, I never call them. 221 00:12:00,142 --> 00:12:02,342 Speaker 1: I have a little bit of a rule, which is 222 00:12:02,342 --> 00:12:05,422 Speaker 1: that if I'm doing something fun, I have to get 223 00:12:05,462 --> 00:12:09,182 Speaker 1: a babysitter because it's not fair to use them as 224 00:12:09,302 --> 00:12:13,462 Speaker 1: just sort of unpaid labor sitting around my place while 225 00:12:13,462 --> 00:12:15,222 Speaker 1: my kids are asleep. I want them to be able 226 00:12:15,262 --> 00:12:17,902 Speaker 1: to do fun things with them and to develop their relationship, 227 00:12:18,022 --> 00:12:20,742 Speaker 1: and doing bed time not fun, not to be in 228 00:12:20,742 --> 00:12:23,462 Speaker 1: a relationship, So I get babysitters for that. But when 229 00:12:23,502 --> 00:12:25,902 Speaker 1: they're sick and have to come home from school, I 230 00:12:26,022 --> 00:12:29,702 Speaker 1: do have to call them because I've got to make 231 00:12:29,782 --> 00:12:33,142 Speaker 1: money and do my job. So I'm aware that that 232 00:12:33,222 --> 00:12:35,342 Speaker 1: means that, for instance, my mom might want to go 233 00:12:35,382 --> 00:12:38,182 Speaker 1: to her exercise class as you mentioned, or my dad 234 00:12:38,302 --> 00:12:40,822 Speaker 1: might want to do his projects and then they have 235 00:12:40,902 --> 00:12:44,102 Speaker 1: to drop them to pick up the kids from school. Yeah, 236 00:12:44,142 --> 00:12:47,342 Speaker 1: and that sense of freedom that is being sacrificed, I 237 00:12:47,382 --> 00:12:50,182 Speaker 1: think is real. And I really loved that this piece 238 00:12:50,382 --> 00:12:54,102 Speaker 1: articulated that in a non judgmental way, because I think 239 00:12:54,142 --> 00:12:57,622 Speaker 1: this is a conversation we're only just beginning to have and. 240 00:12:57,662 --> 00:13:00,342 Speaker 2: Just because you love someone doesn't mean it's not work. 241 00:13:00,662 --> 00:13:02,942 Speaker 2: And there was some really good points. I think it 242 00:13:03,022 --> 00:13:05,142 Speaker 2: was in this article. It might have been another one 243 00:13:05,222 --> 00:13:07,862 Speaker 2: that was more Australian focused, and it was saying that 244 00:13:07,902 --> 00:13:10,742 Speaker 2: one in three grandparents in Australia help out with childcare. 245 00:13:11,262 --> 00:13:15,222 Speaker 2: But there's been studies done about grandparents and life expectancy 246 00:13:15,462 --> 00:13:19,542 Speaker 2: and how it really helps with cognition, really helps with 247 00:13:19,662 --> 00:13:24,542 Speaker 2: not feeling lonely, and how those connections can give you know, 248 00:13:24,702 --> 00:13:27,382 Speaker 2: some people are totally new lease on life. 249 00:13:27,102 --> 00:13:29,062 Speaker 1: And yet when I throw this back at my parents, 250 00:13:29,222 --> 00:13:31,222 Speaker 1: this is helping with your cognition. 251 00:13:31,102 --> 00:13:35,382 Speaker 2: Exactly, I'm giving you ten extree years. I've given you purpose. 252 00:13:35,862 --> 00:13:39,262 Speaker 2: But on the other hand, I was speaking to a 253 00:13:39,262 --> 00:13:44,942 Speaker 2: family friend recently who said that she moved cities so 254 00:13:44,982 --> 00:13:47,582 Speaker 2: that she couldn't be asked because she was starting to 255 00:13:47,622 --> 00:13:50,662 Speaker 2: feel so trapped by the expectations, and I think she 256 00:13:50,742 --> 00:13:53,822 Speaker 2: was in a bind because you offer child one a 257 00:13:53,822 --> 00:13:55,982 Speaker 2: certain level of care, so you go, I'll look after 258 00:13:56,022 --> 00:13:59,102 Speaker 2: them a day a week. But then their second child comes, 259 00:13:59,142 --> 00:14:01,022 Speaker 2: maybe their third child comes, But then what if they 260 00:14:01,022 --> 00:14:03,462 Speaker 2: got siblings, and then you've got seven and you're like, 261 00:14:03,582 --> 00:14:07,142 Speaker 2: I'm doing fourteen days a week with children, and I 262 00:14:07,182 --> 00:14:10,222 Speaker 2: don't have the retirement that I want. I don't have 263 00:14:10,262 --> 00:14:12,381 Speaker 2: any of the freedom. And then I think it also 264 00:14:12,462 --> 00:14:15,862 Speaker 2: puts adult children who are adult parents in a situation 265 00:14:15,942 --> 00:14:19,022 Speaker 2: of going maybe they feel entitled to that privilege. Like 266 00:14:19,062 --> 00:14:21,222 Speaker 2: I know, I'm not sure what your experience is, but 267 00:14:21,262 --> 00:14:24,222 Speaker 2: when I speak to friends about I'm almost self conscious 268 00:14:24,222 --> 00:14:26,342 Speaker 2: about how much help I get because I know that 269 00:14:26,462 --> 00:14:29,982 Speaker 2: it is such a privilege and not everyone is afforded it. 270 00:14:30,062 --> 00:14:33,022 Speaker 2: Either they have lost their parents, and this is a 271 00:14:33,022 --> 00:14:35,662 Speaker 2: particularly difficult time to feel that loss, because they know 272 00:14:35,702 --> 00:14:38,622 Speaker 2: their parents would have loved to their parents can't due 273 00:14:38,662 --> 00:14:42,822 Speaker 2: to disability due to mobility issues, or their parents don't 274 00:14:42,822 --> 00:14:45,142 Speaker 2: want to, and that stinks. 275 00:14:45,702 --> 00:14:48,622 Speaker 1: Yeah, it must be hard. I'm curious for you because 276 00:14:48,662 --> 00:14:53,902 Speaker 1: you do have two grandmothers who, by all accounts pretty 277 00:14:53,982 --> 00:14:57,422 Speaker 1: enthusiastic about the task. Yeah, but that must put a 278 00:14:57,422 --> 00:14:59,702 Speaker 1: bit of pressure on you to just be a little 279 00:14:59,782 --> 00:15:02,062 Speaker 1: aware of how much you're asking them to do. You know, 280 00:15:02,142 --> 00:15:04,262 Speaker 1: they're never going to say no. You know they're always 281 00:15:04,302 --> 00:15:07,262 Speaker 1: going to express delight about being asked. But do you 282 00:15:07,342 --> 00:15:09,982 Speaker 1: have to therefore second guess how much you're asking to do? 283 00:15:10,222 --> 00:15:13,302 Speaker 2: Yes. And the big one has been my twin sister 284 00:15:13,342 --> 00:15:16,702 Speaker 2: had a baby five months after me, So we now 285 00:15:17,182 --> 00:15:19,502 Speaker 2: constantly check in and go how many days. 286 00:15:19,542 --> 00:15:20,502 Speaker 1: I've got to coordinate. 287 00:15:20,542 --> 00:15:22,502 Speaker 2: We've got to coordinate because mom A's not gonna tell 288 00:15:22,582 --> 00:15:24,702 Speaker 2: us and so I got no, she's not doing five 289 00:15:24,782 --> 00:15:27,462 Speaker 2: days between us. She'll do one day with me and 290 00:15:27,502 --> 00:15:30,142 Speaker 2: maybe she'll do one or two days with you. But 291 00:15:30,182 --> 00:15:32,942 Speaker 2: I know her exercise class is on a fast and 292 00:15:32,982 --> 00:15:36,422 Speaker 2: we are not asking her. We're very careful about that 293 00:15:36,862 --> 00:15:39,302 Speaker 2: because we want to protect her, because if we ask, 294 00:15:39,462 --> 00:15:43,382 Speaker 2: she will say yes. And that relationship, like watching my 295 00:15:43,902 --> 00:15:46,982 Speaker 2: daughter's relationship with her two grandmothers, is one of the 296 00:15:46,982 --> 00:15:49,662 Speaker 2: greatest jows of my life. Like it is, oh my god, 297 00:15:49,702 --> 00:15:52,942 Speaker 2: they love each other so much, but you're also like, 298 00:15:53,742 --> 00:15:54,862 Speaker 2: you need a break. 299 00:15:54,582 --> 00:15:57,222 Speaker 1: Yeah, they need rest. One thing I thought was really 300 00:15:57,222 --> 00:16:00,382 Speaker 1: interesting is that there was a study done in twenty 301 00:16:00,422 --> 00:16:03,262 Speaker 1: twenty one of British grandmothers, and apparently all these British 302 00:16:03,262 --> 00:16:06,502 Speaker 1: grandmothers were like, why do I have to supervise these 303 00:16:06,582 --> 00:16:09,102 Speaker 1: children on everything? They were like, I've got to supervise 304 00:16:09,142 --> 00:16:12,062 Speaker 1: their whole work, I've got to provide them with educational activities, 305 00:16:12,462 --> 00:16:15,942 Speaker 1: and all of them were taken aback by how intensified 306 00:16:16,022 --> 00:16:17,622 Speaker 1: grandparenting has become. 307 00:16:18,022 --> 00:16:20,662 Speaker 2: I've had to go. My sister and I have talked 308 00:16:20,662 --> 00:16:22,862 Speaker 2: about this. When they are in the care of grandparents. 309 00:16:22,862 --> 00:16:25,022 Speaker 2: I think it's different. If it's paid, I think it's different. 310 00:16:25,022 --> 00:16:27,342 Speaker 2: If it's someone who's babysit whatever. 311 00:16:27,342 --> 00:16:29,142 Speaker 1: Then you can just tell them exactly what you want, 312 00:16:29,142 --> 00:16:29,342 Speaker 1: want to. 313 00:16:29,302 --> 00:16:31,702 Speaker 2: Do what you want, and there's a really clear exchange 314 00:16:31,862 --> 00:16:35,582 Speaker 2: going on. But when it is family, and you also 315 00:16:35,662 --> 00:16:37,542 Speaker 2: know that they raise their own kids like they do 316 00:16:37,622 --> 00:16:40,822 Speaker 2: have a good cv, you just go is your rules? 317 00:16:41,022 --> 00:16:43,462 Speaker 2: Like I called Mum the other day and it was 318 00:16:43,462 --> 00:16:45,502 Speaker 2: ten am and Luna had a bickie in each hand 319 00:16:45,542 --> 00:16:47,102 Speaker 2: in this movie and I just went. 320 00:16:47,142 --> 00:16:49,822 Speaker 1: Wait, now was. 321 00:16:49,822 --> 00:16:53,902 Speaker 2: Between her eggs? It was the gross motor skills. That's 322 00:16:53,902 --> 00:16:54,782 Speaker 2: what Grandma's teaching. 323 00:16:54,822 --> 00:16:57,222 Speaker 1: Are you truly able to surrender control? 324 00:16:57,302 --> 00:16:59,622 Speaker 2: Like that I am in that situation. There are moments 325 00:16:59,662 --> 00:17:02,062 Speaker 2: where it's hard because I go, when she's with me, 326 00:17:02,142 --> 00:17:06,061 Speaker 2: she's not getting wikis, But I go, it's my rules 327 00:17:06,061 --> 00:17:08,341 Speaker 2: when I'm looking after her and the grandparents, and maybe 328 00:17:08,341 --> 00:17:11,141 Speaker 2: it's my Nan lived with me growing up, and interestingly, 329 00:17:11,182 --> 00:17:13,181 Speaker 2: I didn't feel like she was a parent in that 330 00:17:13,262 --> 00:17:17,221 Speaker 2: she didn't that supervision that do your homework. There was 331 00:17:17,462 --> 00:17:21,141 Speaker 2: never that. But she was just this presence, a companion 332 00:17:21,422 --> 00:17:23,861 Speaker 2: I thought Nan was. And I laughed with Mum sometimes 333 00:17:23,901 --> 00:17:26,222 Speaker 2: I go, Luna thinks you're just a friend who comes over. 334 00:17:26,302 --> 00:17:27,222 Speaker 2: She doesn't know it's care. 335 00:17:27,661 --> 00:17:29,982 Speaker 1: I am so glad you raised this, because I think 336 00:17:30,061 --> 00:17:33,101 Speaker 1: this is the other thing that has changed over the generations. 337 00:17:33,182 --> 00:17:35,982 Speaker 1: I also had my grandmother living with us for much 338 00:17:35,982 --> 00:17:38,542 Speaker 1: of the time, and she and I were really good friends. 339 00:17:39,302 --> 00:17:41,821 Speaker 1: And she did not supervise my homework. She cut up 340 00:17:41,861 --> 00:17:45,382 Speaker 1: cubes of cheese for me to watch the Barcelona Olympics. Yes, 341 00:17:45,462 --> 00:17:48,022 Speaker 1: I am that old. And then get smart always gets 342 00:17:48,782 --> 00:17:52,342 Speaker 1: in the afternoon mash did you ever have mash on them? 343 00:17:52,422 --> 00:17:54,142 Speaker 1: Burjoe's catchphrase was the other one? 344 00:17:54,182 --> 00:17:55,861 Speaker 2: And I loved old people. 345 00:17:56,262 --> 00:17:58,502 Speaker 1: Loved them, and I'd eat my cubes of cheese and 346 00:17:58,502 --> 00:18:01,621 Speaker 1: then she make me cupcakes. She wasn't providing me with 347 00:18:01,661 --> 00:18:04,621 Speaker 1: any educational resources. Now, she wasn't even saying you should 348 00:18:04,621 --> 00:18:07,341 Speaker 1: really do your piano practice. That fell to my mother. 349 00:18:07,861 --> 00:18:10,382 Speaker 1: And yet I think now I do have this sort 350 00:18:10,381 --> 00:18:13,702 Speaker 1: of expectation that my parents are going to, for instance, 351 00:18:13,742 --> 00:18:16,262 Speaker 1: tell my son to do his piano practice. And why 352 00:18:16,302 --> 00:18:17,101 Speaker 1: did that happen? 353 00:18:17,462 --> 00:18:19,542 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so true. I think that we became more 354 00:18:19,581 --> 00:18:22,702 Speaker 2: intensive and with that, we're projecting it because we're more anxious. 355 00:18:22,982 --> 00:18:25,222 Speaker 2: But I notice it with my mum. Sometimes my daughter 356 00:18:25,262 --> 00:18:26,942 Speaker 2: will be doing something and Mum will walk me out 357 00:18:26,982 --> 00:18:28,542 Speaker 2: the front door and will be standing on the thing 358 00:18:28,542 --> 00:18:32,221 Speaker 2: and I'm like, mate, who's watching? Luna wrote, well, like, 359 00:18:32,341 --> 00:18:35,181 Speaker 2: I'm so intense in that situation, But I go, you 360 00:18:35,302 --> 00:18:37,381 Speaker 2: raised two sets of twins. Yeah, we got out of 361 00:18:37,422 --> 00:18:41,461 Speaker 2: it somehow, and I think she'll be fine. There was 362 00:18:41,462 --> 00:18:45,181 Speaker 2: an article published in The Guardian last month that I inhaled. 363 00:18:45,262 --> 00:18:48,661 Speaker 2: It was so beautifully written and so rich with insights 364 00:18:48,782 --> 00:18:51,861 Speaker 2: and detail about one of the most difficult things a 365 00:18:51,901 --> 00:18:54,381 Speaker 2: parent could ever go through. And it's funny. I often 366 00:18:54,542 --> 00:18:58,221 Speaker 2: actively avoid this content, but this was going around. My 367 00:18:58,262 --> 00:18:59,701 Speaker 2: sister sent it to me. And told me I had 368 00:18:59,702 --> 00:19:02,222 Speaker 2: to read it, and once I started, I couldn't put 369 00:19:02,222 --> 00:19:05,141 Speaker 2: it down. It was stunning. The story was written by 370 00:19:05,302 --> 00:19:07,942 Speaker 2: Archie Bland and it's called The Boy Who Came Back 371 00:19:08,022 --> 00:19:10,981 Speaker 2: the Near Death and changed life life of my son Max, 372 00:19:11,502 --> 00:19:14,061 Speaker 2: and it tells the story of how when Archie's son 373 00:19:14,101 --> 00:19:17,901 Speaker 2: Max was seven weeks old, he stopped breathing in his sleep. 374 00:19:18,141 --> 00:19:22,181 Speaker 2: It was described as an interrupted sid's situation is what 375 00:19:22,222 --> 00:19:25,022 Speaker 2: they think happened. They had a night nanny at the time, 376 00:19:25,222 --> 00:19:28,262 Speaker 2: her name is Gina, who realized he'd gone quiet, ran 377 00:19:28,262 --> 00:19:31,581 Speaker 2: into his parents and they immediately called an ambulance. Against 378 00:19:31,621 --> 00:19:34,782 Speaker 2: the odds, he was revived and as a result, Max 379 00:19:34,861 --> 00:19:37,622 Speaker 2: lives with a disability. It's unclear he's not yet too 380 00:19:38,302 --> 00:19:41,302 Speaker 2: how this will impact him going forward. They know he 381 00:19:41,422 --> 00:19:45,861 Speaker 2: has cerebral palsy, which impacts speech and gross motor function 382 00:19:46,661 --> 00:19:49,742 Speaker 2: amelia separately. Without us even discussing it, you had also 383 00:19:49,821 --> 00:19:54,781 Speaker 2: read this article. What do you think it was that 384 00:19:55,262 --> 00:19:58,261 Speaker 2: resonated with people so much and made it so deeply 385 00:19:58,422 --> 00:19:59,182 Speaker 2: kind of affecting. 386 00:19:59,502 --> 00:20:01,982 Speaker 1: There are so many things in this piece that we 387 00:20:02,022 --> 00:20:06,341 Speaker 1: could talk about for hours. One aspect of it that 388 00:20:06,381 --> 00:20:10,022 Speaker 1: I want to talk about is this social packs and 389 00:20:10,061 --> 00:20:15,101 Speaker 1: effects of having a sick child, because it's not the 390 00:20:15,182 --> 00:20:18,982 Speaker 1: same as arching his family. Every situation is of course different, 391 00:20:19,061 --> 00:20:21,901 Speaker 1: but having had a child in hospital for an extended period, 392 00:20:21,942 --> 00:20:25,221 Speaker 1: there were parts which really resonated with me. What I 393 00:20:25,262 --> 00:20:29,141 Speaker 1: found interesting about it was how isolating it was, because 394 00:20:29,182 --> 00:20:31,382 Speaker 1: you'd think that when you have a child in the hospital, 395 00:20:31,581 --> 00:20:33,942 Speaker 1: everyone rallies around, and yes they did. You know, there 396 00:20:33,942 --> 00:20:37,222 Speaker 1: were meal trains, people were constantly checking in with me. 397 00:20:37,942 --> 00:20:41,302 Speaker 1: It's not that people didn't care, but it's that no 398 00:20:41,341 --> 00:20:44,501 Speaker 1: one knows what to say. And the fact is that 399 00:20:44,581 --> 00:20:46,822 Speaker 1: nothing anyone says is the right thing. 400 00:20:46,821 --> 00:20:52,302 Speaker 2: And in fact, a misstep or a clumsy statement does 401 00:20:52,381 --> 00:20:55,101 Speaker 2: so much harm that I think that people get scared. 402 00:20:55,101 --> 00:20:57,141 Speaker 2: And that's what I found in this, And maybe I 403 00:20:57,182 --> 00:20:59,982 Speaker 2: looked at why I read it, and I think I've 404 00:21:00,022 --> 00:21:03,661 Speaker 2: had friends in that situation with sick kid, go through awful, 405 00:21:03,702 --> 00:21:07,021 Speaker 2: awful trauma of all different kinds, and you do the 406 00:21:07,061 --> 00:21:09,381 Speaker 2: gymnastics of trying to find the right thing to say. 407 00:21:09,621 --> 00:21:12,701 Speaker 2: And I was looking through this going I found it 408 00:21:12,782 --> 00:21:16,502 Speaker 2: really interesting what was the wrong thing to say? And 409 00:21:16,542 --> 00:21:19,941 Speaker 2: also he said so early on in the piece, basically 410 00:21:20,621 --> 00:21:22,502 Speaker 2: I don't want to be the story that you look 411 00:21:22,542 --> 00:21:25,381 Speaker 2: at that then makes you really grateful for your own kids. 412 00:21:25,381 --> 00:21:26,501 Speaker 2: That's really irritating. 413 00:21:26,621 --> 00:21:29,341 Speaker 1: Don't pull out the aphorisms. Don't say things to him like, well, 414 00:21:29,341 --> 00:21:31,861 Speaker 1: I'm going to hug my own children tighter tonight. 415 00:21:31,861 --> 00:21:34,701 Speaker 2: I hate that. I hate that. I suppose there's a 416 00:21:34,702 --> 00:21:37,982 Speaker 2: truth in that that whenever we consume things about parenting 417 00:21:38,061 --> 00:21:41,141 Speaker 2: or kids, we're always seeing our own is empathy, but 418 00:21:41,222 --> 00:21:46,262 Speaker 2: it also almost dehumanizes his own son. And I found 419 00:21:46,462 --> 00:21:48,782 Speaker 2: he had a few things that people said to him, 420 00:21:48,861 --> 00:21:52,262 Speaker 2: like comparing going, oh, well, you know, my son was 421 00:21:52,302 --> 00:21:53,421 Speaker 2: really slow to sit. 422 00:21:53,381 --> 00:21:56,741 Speaker 1: Up, or like, my son's just forever throwing his porridge 423 00:21:56,782 --> 00:21:59,102 Speaker 1: around the room. Yeah, he's a mess too. 424 00:21:59,262 --> 00:22:01,941 Speaker 2: As though it's the same when it absolutely isn't. But 425 00:22:01,982 --> 00:22:03,661 Speaker 2: I had someone close to me with a child in 426 00:22:03,702 --> 00:22:06,742 Speaker 2: hospital for a time recently, and again I'm not saying 427 00:22:06,742 --> 00:22:09,302 Speaker 2: that this is comparable or it's the same situation as 428 00:22:09,341 --> 00:22:12,581 Speaker 2: the one depicted in the article. But the power of 429 00:22:12,621 --> 00:22:15,621 Speaker 2: this piece is that some of the things Archie describes 430 00:22:15,901 --> 00:22:19,382 Speaker 2: so beautifully did feel really familiar, and I hadn't seen 431 00:22:19,422 --> 00:22:22,061 Speaker 2: words around them before. It's interesting what you say that 432 00:22:22,101 --> 00:22:27,662 Speaker 2: there's people rally but your focus is so singular, and 433 00:22:28,262 --> 00:22:31,141 Speaker 2: I don't think there's anything like it. You are not sleeping, 434 00:22:31,381 --> 00:22:34,261 Speaker 2: you have no appetite. It is hell on earth, and 435 00:22:34,302 --> 00:22:37,741 Speaker 2: even being in that environment is hell on Earth. Like 436 00:22:38,222 --> 00:22:41,782 Speaker 2: to be in an environment with other sick kids is awful. 437 00:22:41,861 --> 00:22:45,341 Speaker 2: And so to have him describe it, he describes the 438 00:22:45,462 --> 00:22:47,502 Speaker 2: orbits of like you walk out of the hospital and 439 00:22:47,542 --> 00:22:49,782 Speaker 2: still people understand this is around a hospital, this is 440 00:22:49,861 --> 00:22:53,942 Speaker 2: like serious shit. But then you go into the quote 441 00:22:54,022 --> 00:22:56,981 Speaker 2: unquote real world and there's just fury because it's like, 442 00:22:57,101 --> 00:23:00,181 Speaker 2: you have no idea, how can I go? 443 00:23:00,422 --> 00:23:03,141 Speaker 1: Yeah. So basically this happened in twenty twenty, and for 444 00:23:03,222 --> 00:23:06,861 Speaker 1: that entire year, I was very aware of the fact 445 00:23:06,901 --> 00:23:11,462 Speaker 1: that I was pushing my friends away because anytime they 446 00:23:11,542 --> 00:23:14,461 Speaker 1: tried to reach out, I was filled with anger and 447 00:23:14,502 --> 00:23:18,181 Speaker 1: resentment that they didn't know what I'd gone through, couldn't 448 00:23:18,262 --> 00:23:20,382 Speaker 1: understand what I'd gone through. My life was so much 449 00:23:20,381 --> 00:23:23,462 Speaker 1: harder than theirs, and I was just furious at them. 450 00:23:23,502 --> 00:23:25,901 Speaker 1: And he pulls out a few things that people said 451 00:23:25,942 --> 00:23:29,622 Speaker 1: that really bothered him. So, for instance, one that really 452 00:23:29,742 --> 00:23:31,741 Speaker 1: got to me was that he said, don't tell me 453 00:23:31,861 --> 00:23:34,661 Speaker 1: that this is scary. Oh, how scary? This must be 454 00:23:34,821 --> 00:23:37,302 Speaker 1: for you to have your kid in the hospital. And 455 00:23:37,422 --> 00:23:39,821 Speaker 1: that got me because that's something that I've said to people. 456 00:23:39,901 --> 00:23:42,341 Speaker 1: I would say say in hospital, is that must be scary, 457 00:23:42,422 --> 00:23:45,182 Speaker 1: because that's what I think is the true thing to say. 458 00:23:45,222 --> 00:23:47,341 Speaker 1: But he says it's not scary. Scary is losing your 459 00:23:47,422 --> 00:23:49,742 Speaker 1: kid at the shopping mall. This is a whole other 460 00:23:49,782 --> 00:23:54,101 Speaker 1: existential level. And another thing that he doesn't want people 461 00:23:54,182 --> 00:23:58,381 Speaker 1: to say is to talk about how it makes them 462 00:23:58,542 --> 00:24:01,341 Speaker 1: grateful for their own lives and their own children, and 463 00:24:01,581 --> 00:24:04,542 Speaker 1: just let's talk about where we're at. So then he 464 00:24:04,621 --> 00:24:07,302 Speaker 1: mentioned some things that were helpful. One of them was 465 00:24:08,022 --> 00:24:10,382 Speaker 1: a friend of his pulled his son aside and put 466 00:24:10,462 --> 00:24:12,341 Speaker 1: him in front of the TV with all the other 467 00:24:12,422 --> 00:24:14,702 Speaker 1: kids that are social gathering. Didn't make a big fuss 468 00:24:14,702 --> 00:24:16,701 Speaker 1: about it, didn't check if that was okay for his 469 00:24:16,782 --> 00:24:19,982 Speaker 1: son to be there, just did this thing, this quiet 470 00:24:20,061 --> 00:24:23,622 Speaker 1: act of grace that enabled both the father to get 471 00:24:23,621 --> 00:24:26,581 Speaker 1: along with his socializing, but also for his son to 472 00:24:26,661 --> 00:24:29,262 Speaker 1: feel like a normal child amongst the other children. And 473 00:24:29,302 --> 00:24:32,421 Speaker 1: I thought that was such a beautiful, practical thing that 474 00:24:32,502 --> 00:24:33,502 Speaker 1: someone did for him. 475 00:24:33,861 --> 00:24:36,942 Speaker 2: I love that, And I think there's a sense when 476 00:24:37,502 --> 00:24:39,661 Speaker 2: someone's in hospital that the people around you really just 477 00:24:39,702 --> 00:24:42,061 Speaker 2: want it to be over. So saying that it's scary 478 00:24:42,502 --> 00:24:46,782 Speaker 2: being positive in a way that's actually not not realistic, 479 00:24:47,341 --> 00:24:49,821 Speaker 2: just makes a person feel really unseen. People just want 480 00:24:49,821 --> 00:24:51,741 Speaker 2: the good news. That's why they're checking in because they 481 00:24:51,782 --> 00:24:54,222 Speaker 2: want the good news, and it's like it's not here. 482 00:24:54,621 --> 00:24:58,742 Speaker 2: And when it's when there's ongoing struggles, I think, Yeah, 483 00:24:58,782 --> 00:25:00,782 Speaker 2: people lean on cliches, probably because I don't know what 484 00:25:00,861 --> 00:25:03,502 Speaker 2: to say, but I think it's helpful to kind of go, 485 00:25:03,901 --> 00:25:04,782 Speaker 2: here's what you do say. 486 00:25:04,942 --> 00:25:07,742 Speaker 1: I didn't want people texting me for precisely that reason, 487 00:25:07,782 --> 00:25:11,141 Speaker 1: saying how are things because it's exhausting to have to 488 00:25:11,262 --> 00:25:14,061 Speaker 1: update people with uncertain news. A lot of stuff that 489 00:25:14,061 --> 00:25:16,861 Speaker 1: happens in hospitals is uncertain, Like that's why I realized 490 00:25:16,861 --> 00:25:19,542 Speaker 1: through this process, all this test came back and they 491 00:25:19,542 --> 00:25:21,861 Speaker 1: don't really know what's going on, and a lot of 492 00:25:21,861 --> 00:25:23,581 Speaker 1: the time they didn't know what's going on, and so 493 00:25:23,742 --> 00:25:26,341 Speaker 1: it's hard to give people definitive updates. So I would 494 00:25:26,381 --> 00:25:30,941 Speaker 1: find myself sending these group emails and asking people just 495 00:25:31,022 --> 00:25:33,782 Speaker 1: to read but not right back, because then I have 496 00:25:33,861 --> 00:25:36,861 Speaker 1: the labor of having to respond to them. It took 497 00:25:36,901 --> 00:25:38,941 Speaker 1: me a long time to get over the anger that 498 00:25:38,982 --> 00:25:41,221 Speaker 1: I felt, a lot longer than it took for my 499 00:25:41,381 --> 00:25:45,221 Speaker 1: child to get better. And I just really appreciate how 500 00:25:45,661 --> 00:25:48,502 Speaker 1: he went there with this piece. He didn't hold back. 501 00:25:48,542 --> 00:25:50,381 Speaker 1: He could see that people were trying to help. But 502 00:25:50,502 --> 00:25:53,341 Speaker 1: it's also important that people understand how hard it is 503 00:25:53,381 --> 00:25:55,902 Speaker 1: to accept and receive that help at a time like this. 504 00:25:56,861 --> 00:26:00,542 Speaker 1: If you've ever wondered how a secession character might design 505 00:26:00,581 --> 00:26:03,821 Speaker 1: a playroom, the Wall Street Journal has you covered. A 506 00:26:03,861 --> 00:26:07,941 Speaker 1: recent Wall Street Journal article featured a playroom that's getting 507 00:26:07,982 --> 00:26:11,061 Speaker 1: me angry. It's a venture capitalist mother and a tech 508 00:26:11,222 --> 00:26:13,581 Speaker 1: entrepreneur father in the New York City neighborhood of the 509 00:26:13,581 --> 00:26:17,982 Speaker 1: West Village. They purchased a two bedroom apartment next door 510 00:26:18,022 --> 00:26:20,982 Speaker 1: to their four bedroom apartment just to turn it into 511 00:26:21,022 --> 00:26:24,222 Speaker 1: a retreat for their young daughters. Okay, I don't know 512 00:26:24,262 --> 00:26:27,542 Speaker 1: if they've heard of making a fort with blankets and 513 00:26:27,821 --> 00:26:31,621 Speaker 1: dining room chairs, but anyway, buying a two bedroom apartment 514 00:26:31,621 --> 00:26:32,061 Speaker 1: works too. 515 00:26:32,101 --> 00:26:33,661 Speaker 2: When I was a kid, I made that fort and 516 00:26:33,702 --> 00:26:35,542 Speaker 2: I put the blankets out, and then I lit a candle, 517 00:26:35,982 --> 00:26:38,061 Speaker 2: and I'll tell you there was holes in the bottom 518 00:26:38,101 --> 00:26:38,742 Speaker 2: of those chairs. 519 00:26:38,821 --> 00:26:41,662 Speaker 1: My mom still remembers that I live in a two 520 00:26:41,661 --> 00:26:45,502 Speaker 1: bedroom apartment. That's my two young children's retreat. Anyway, Setting 521 00:26:45,542 --> 00:26:48,861 Speaker 1: aside the extravagance of it all, what is making people incensed, 522 00:26:48,942 --> 00:26:51,821 Speaker 1: and I guess by people I mean me, is that 523 00:26:51,861 --> 00:26:55,422 Speaker 1: there are no colors in this retreat at the request 524 00:26:55,502 --> 00:26:59,822 Speaker 1: of the color reverse clients. The designers embraced monastic restraint. 525 00:27:00,141 --> 00:27:03,382 Speaker 1: The Raw Street Journal rights it's very muted. The interior 526 00:27:03,422 --> 00:27:05,742 Speaker 1: designer is quoted as saying, so let me paint you 527 00:27:05,742 --> 00:27:09,382 Speaker 1: a picture, Jesse, because this is a podcast, hand tufted rugs, 528 00:27:09,581 --> 00:27:14,461 Speaker 1: a custom mural chairs from Copenhagen, and fifty shades of beige, 529 00:27:14,861 --> 00:27:18,181 Speaker 1: or as the designers call it, oatmeal, flax, cream, stone, rope, 530 00:27:18,222 --> 00:27:22,141 Speaker 1: bone and ash. Why is everything to do with kids 531 00:27:22,222 --> 00:27:23,942 Speaker 1: suddenly looking like a Skims catalog. 532 00:27:24,182 --> 00:27:30,101 Speaker 2: I love beige. I will launch a passionate defense of 533 00:27:30,262 --> 00:27:33,742 Speaker 2: beigey it gets such a bad rap. And I bought 534 00:27:33,861 --> 00:27:36,341 Speaker 2: like linen for my bed recently and it was oatmeal 535 00:27:36,422 --> 00:27:40,742 Speaker 2: with flax. It was those shades that I went, that's perfect. 536 00:27:40,742 --> 00:27:45,141 Speaker 2: And here's the reason everything to do with children is 537 00:27:45,182 --> 00:27:50,341 Speaker 2: over stimulating in my house. Despite my love of the neutrals, 538 00:27:50,462 --> 00:27:52,902 Speaker 2: I've got a red Elmo, I've got a blue bluey. 539 00:27:53,022 --> 00:27:54,742 Speaker 2: They yell in the middle of the night sometimes for 540 00:27:54,742 --> 00:27:57,342 Speaker 2: no reason because they batchooes go off. There is plato, 541 00:27:57,581 --> 00:28:00,502 Speaker 2: there are crayons there, and then you know, if the 542 00:28:00,542 --> 00:28:02,861 Speaker 2: TV goes on, don't even talk to me about the 543 00:28:02,861 --> 00:28:06,061 Speaker 2: colors that come up. We've got the wiggles, like there 544 00:28:06,141 --> 00:28:08,662 Speaker 2: is so much color. It is an assault on the senses. 545 00:28:09,182 --> 00:28:11,341 Speaker 2: Raising kids is an assault on the senses. It is 546 00:28:11,462 --> 00:28:15,061 Speaker 2: very overstimulating, quite like a nursery tour that I get 547 00:28:15,061 --> 00:28:18,142 Speaker 2: given on on social media sometimes, and I love when 548 00:28:18,141 --> 00:28:20,342 Speaker 2: they walk in and it's also neat, and. 549 00:28:20,462 --> 00:28:24,742 Speaker 1: They've always got these special custom designed cubes. Yes, yes, 550 00:28:24,782 --> 00:28:26,621 Speaker 1: And I tried doing that in my house and I 551 00:28:26,661 --> 00:28:29,221 Speaker 1: made signs with my apartment and I made signs for 552 00:28:29,262 --> 00:28:31,581 Speaker 1: them for the kids, like this is my son's toys, 553 00:28:31,621 --> 00:28:33,782 Speaker 1: this is my daughter's toys. Do you know how long 554 00:28:33,821 --> 00:28:37,302 Speaker 1: it took for that whole taxonomy to be completely tossed aside. 555 00:28:37,502 --> 00:28:39,741 Speaker 2: That's what's so funny is that the naivety of a 556 00:28:39,822 --> 00:28:42,342 Speaker 2: nursery is always like they barely go in there for 557 00:28:42,382 --> 00:28:44,862 Speaker 2: the first first little bit, and then the way that 558 00:28:44,902 --> 00:28:48,302 Speaker 2: people line up all the nappies, and I think, oh, never. 559 00:28:48,182 --> 00:28:51,062 Speaker 1: Do that again. You never do the lining up of 560 00:28:51,102 --> 00:28:51,582 Speaker 1: the names. 561 00:28:51,942 --> 00:28:53,982 Speaker 2: It's just and the like washing of the onesies and 562 00:28:54,022 --> 00:28:56,302 Speaker 2: the putting them back in. But the neutral, I mean, 563 00:28:56,582 --> 00:28:59,262 Speaker 2: I will also say that it's a real benefit for 564 00:28:59,862 --> 00:29:02,382 Speaker 2: hand me downs, like because we have a lot of beige. 565 00:29:02,661 --> 00:29:05,062 Speaker 2: I have friends who've had boys girls. What's true, let's 566 00:29:05,142 --> 00:29:08,342 Speaker 2: gender neutral, very ginger neutral, which is great. And if 567 00:29:08,342 --> 00:29:10,142 Speaker 2: you don't know the sex of a baby is also 568 00:29:10,182 --> 00:29:12,702 Speaker 2: really good to throw it in. I mean, look, I'm 569 00:29:12,742 --> 00:29:15,702 Speaker 2: not too essentialist about gender. I think girls can wear 570 00:29:15,742 --> 00:29:18,342 Speaker 2: blue and boys can wear pink. But some people, yeah, 571 00:29:18,342 --> 00:29:21,382 Speaker 2: that's why we go very yellow during that period. I 572 00:29:21,422 --> 00:29:23,502 Speaker 2: think the beige, I've seen an attack on beige, and 573 00:29:23,542 --> 00:29:26,382 Speaker 2: I just think I think we can allow it and 574 00:29:26,462 --> 00:29:27,701 Speaker 2: embrace more of the beige. 575 00:29:27,742 --> 00:29:30,062 Speaker 1: You know, you are convincing me here. And another thing 576 00:29:30,142 --> 00:29:33,941 Speaker 1: about beige or oatmeal or flax or the cereals is 577 00:29:33,982 --> 00:29:37,742 Speaker 1: that you can throw things on them and it's sort 578 00:29:37,742 --> 00:29:40,982 Speaker 1: of just all blends into the sort of beige camouflage 579 00:29:41,022 --> 00:29:41,382 Speaker 1: of it all. 580 00:29:41,942 --> 00:29:46,262 Speaker 2: Vomit meal a light pool, I think you just smudge 581 00:29:46,262 --> 00:29:49,302 Speaker 2: it in. It does look like it's tonal it's actually tonal. 582 00:29:49,542 --> 00:29:53,142 Speaker 1: As my husband is fond of saying it's either blood, 583 00:29:53,262 --> 00:29:55,661 Speaker 1: semen or urine, but I hope it's urine. 584 00:29:57,062 --> 00:30:01,742 Speaker 2: We should say your husband is a doctor relevant information. 585 00:30:02,942 --> 00:30:06,542 Speaker 2: He deals with bodily fluids for a living Amelia. It 586 00:30:06,622 --> 00:30:08,942 Speaker 2: is time for our recommendations of the week. And look, 587 00:30:08,982 --> 00:30:11,462 Speaker 2: the rule for the is that it's recommendations that might 588 00:30:11,622 --> 00:30:14,941 Speaker 2: apply to parents parenting adjacent. That is the rule. What 589 00:30:15,022 --> 00:30:15,782 Speaker 2: is your recommendation? 590 00:30:16,222 --> 00:30:18,822 Speaker 1: It is a book. It is called Intermetso it is 591 00:30:18,902 --> 00:30:22,461 Speaker 1: by Sally Rooney. She's a really unknown niche writer. You 592 00:30:22,582 --> 00:30:24,582 Speaker 1: may not have heard of her. No, she's in fact 593 00:30:24,661 --> 00:30:29,342 Speaker 1: probably the most famous writer of AH generation. I guess 594 00:30:29,342 --> 00:30:30,502 Speaker 1: I have to say. 595 00:30:30,542 --> 00:30:32,862 Speaker 2: I have a confession about this book. I started it 596 00:30:32,862 --> 00:30:33,342 Speaker 2: and I put it. 597 00:30:33,582 --> 00:30:35,502 Speaker 1: No, I get it. I get it. I'm here to 598 00:30:35,542 --> 00:30:37,062 Speaker 1: sell you on it. It's not a new book. It 599 00:30:37,102 --> 00:30:39,942 Speaker 1: came out last year and it got very mixed reviews. Yeah, 600 00:30:39,982 --> 00:30:42,222 Speaker 1: I was not going to read it. I didn't enjoy 601 00:30:42,262 --> 00:30:44,822 Speaker 1: her last book. I just sort of felt like I 602 00:30:44,902 --> 00:30:48,142 Speaker 1: understood the stick of awkward Irish people falling in and 603 00:30:48,182 --> 00:30:49,782 Speaker 1: out of love. Did not need to read that. 604 00:30:49,942 --> 00:30:51,302 Speaker 2: The love awkward Irish people. 605 00:30:51,342 --> 00:30:53,342 Speaker 1: But this was like, it's just too much. You know, 606 00:30:53,462 --> 00:30:55,221 Speaker 1: this is like her third or fourth book, and I 607 00:30:55,262 --> 00:30:57,902 Speaker 1: get it. But then I just picked it up at 608 00:30:57,902 --> 00:31:02,342 Speaker 1: the library and needed something to read, and I think 609 00:31:02,382 --> 00:31:05,902 Speaker 1: it's my favorite of her books, and it's absolutely the 610 00:31:05,942 --> 00:31:08,062 Speaker 1: best book I've read all year. And I want to 611 00:31:08,142 --> 00:31:10,782 Speaker 1: say what I think people miss They missed the point 612 00:31:10,782 --> 00:31:12,941 Speaker 1: to me, I think that this is a book about 613 00:31:12,942 --> 00:31:16,822 Speaker 1: two brothers. It's about the relationship between brothers, and I 614 00:31:16,902 --> 00:31:19,302 Speaker 1: love that because I have a brother and I'm always 615 00:31:19,342 --> 00:31:23,662 Speaker 1: reading books about relationships between sisters. And I think that's 616 00:31:23,782 --> 00:31:27,142 Speaker 1: because novels these days are read and written by women, 617 00:31:27,262 --> 00:31:30,501 Speaker 1: so naturally I think we're going to gravitate towards stories 618 00:31:30,502 --> 00:31:34,382 Speaker 1: about women. But this really made me think about and 619 00:31:34,422 --> 00:31:37,422 Speaker 1: reflect on my relationship with my brother, and it helped 620 00:31:37,462 --> 00:31:40,302 Speaker 1: me to understand it a little bit more. I love 621 00:31:40,382 --> 00:31:43,702 Speaker 1: that Sally Rooney made such a valiant attempt to live 622 00:31:43,862 --> 00:31:47,742 Speaker 1: inside the minds of two men. This never happens. 623 00:31:47,902 --> 00:31:50,342 Speaker 2: She did do that very very well, and the inner 624 00:31:50,382 --> 00:31:53,701 Speaker 2: world of the men came across as very authentic well. 625 00:31:53,742 --> 00:31:55,422 Speaker 1: To be honest, I have no idea if she did 626 00:31:55,422 --> 00:31:58,982 Speaker 1: it well or not, because I'm not a man, but 627 00:31:59,142 --> 00:32:02,102 Speaker 1: to me, it was just really compelling. Whether or not 628 00:32:02,142 --> 00:32:04,342 Speaker 1: it was accurate or not, I will have to leave 629 00:32:04,382 --> 00:32:06,382 Speaker 1: that to the men. But it did give me a 630 00:32:06,422 --> 00:32:10,782 Speaker 1: sense that I understood my brother better, relationship with him 631 00:32:10,942 --> 00:32:14,022 Speaker 1: a little better. So basically it's about Peter and Ivan Kubec. 632 00:32:14,102 --> 00:32:16,822 Speaker 1: They are brothers who live in Dublin, their fathers just died. 633 00:32:17,062 --> 00:32:20,142 Speaker 1: They're both negotiating romantic relationships with women. It is in 634 00:32:20,222 --> 00:32:23,062 Speaker 1: fact about awkward Irish people. I need to make that 635 00:32:23,102 --> 00:32:26,741 Speaker 1: clear up front. But I loved getting an insight or 636 00:32:26,782 --> 00:32:30,582 Speaker 1: feeling like I got an insight into how men think 637 00:32:30,622 --> 00:32:34,822 Speaker 1: about women and how men think about their siblings. And 638 00:32:34,942 --> 00:32:36,461 Speaker 1: that's why I'm recommending it. 639 00:32:36,582 --> 00:32:39,701 Speaker 2: Maybe I should pick it back up. I have two recommendations. 640 00:32:39,862 --> 00:32:42,142 Speaker 2: My first recommendation is a Tony box. 641 00:32:42,182 --> 00:32:45,102 Speaker 1: Have you heard of those? Yes? Yes, I have one, 642 00:32:45,582 --> 00:32:47,582 Speaker 1: and I need to dig it up. Remind me why 643 00:32:47,661 --> 00:32:48,181 Speaker 1: it's good. 644 00:32:48,422 --> 00:32:53,742 Speaker 2: Okay, So the tony box is like a soft box thing, 645 00:32:54,422 --> 00:32:56,942 Speaker 2: and then you get Tony's what they're called, and we've 646 00:32:56,942 --> 00:32:59,701 Speaker 2: got like a gruffalo or a pepper pig, and you 647 00:32:59,742 --> 00:33:02,302 Speaker 2: put it on top and it either sing songs or 648 00:33:02,302 --> 00:33:05,062 Speaker 2: tells stories or whatever, and the idea is the way 649 00:33:05,102 --> 00:33:06,542 Speaker 2: that a lot of people talk to me about it 650 00:33:06,661 --> 00:33:10,021 Speaker 2: was you get them off screens. It's really inter active 651 00:33:10,182 --> 00:33:12,661 Speaker 2: and they love it, and so it's a great way 652 00:33:13,302 --> 00:33:15,742 Speaker 2: for them to feel really entertained by pig without looking 653 00:33:15,782 --> 00:33:18,102 Speaker 2: at a screen. As we know that is parenting in 654 00:33:18,102 --> 00:33:21,582 Speaker 2: twenty twenty five. Just finding weaselways around screens. 655 00:33:21,822 --> 00:33:23,782 Speaker 1: Is Luna's favorite pepper No. 656 00:33:23,822 --> 00:33:27,862 Speaker 2: Her favorite is the dog because it does round and around. 657 00:33:28,102 --> 00:33:29,902 Speaker 2: There's some song that she loves doing because she does 658 00:33:29,982 --> 00:33:31,262 Speaker 2: the dances to it, but we have to do it 659 00:33:31,262 --> 00:33:33,382 Speaker 2: every night. There's one that does lullabyes, so we put 660 00:33:33,382 --> 00:33:36,262 Speaker 2: that on before bed. And full disclosure, this was a gift, 661 00:33:36,262 --> 00:33:38,262 Speaker 2: so I didn't buy this myself, and then I looked 662 00:33:38,342 --> 00:33:39,822 Speaker 2: up how much it was, and that's why I was 663 00:33:39,822 --> 00:33:43,062 Speaker 2: a little bit self conscious about my recommendation because they 664 00:33:43,502 --> 00:33:45,702 Speaker 2: cost I think it's about one hundred and eighty nine 665 00:33:45,862 --> 00:33:48,662 Speaker 2: dollars for a box, and the tonys are twenty nine 666 00:33:48,702 --> 00:33:51,902 Speaker 2: dollars each, So I understand that that's a lot. And 667 00:33:51,942 --> 00:33:54,221 Speaker 2: I always get funny when like toys are recommended that 668 00:33:54,302 --> 00:33:56,902 Speaker 2: are really expensive and it feels like they would make 669 00:33:56,982 --> 00:34:00,462 Speaker 2: parenting easier, Like I just don't love that I also 670 00:34:00,582 --> 00:34:03,182 Speaker 2: think from what I've heard, they last for years and years. 671 00:34:03,302 --> 00:34:04,302 Speaker 1: We've had us for years. 672 00:34:04,422 --> 00:34:07,062 Speaker 2: Yes, and it appeals to a five year old in 673 00:34:07,102 --> 00:34:09,422 Speaker 2: a different way than it appears to a two year old. 674 00:34:10,302 --> 00:34:12,782 Speaker 2: I'm going to check another one out there, which is 675 00:34:12,862 --> 00:34:15,822 Speaker 2: a recipe Amelia I your kid's PICI eaters. I know 676 00:34:15,862 --> 00:34:18,022 Speaker 2: we're not meant to use that term, but are they picias? 677 00:34:18,181 --> 00:34:20,982 Speaker 1: Not really, to be honest, but people. 678 00:34:20,781 --> 00:34:23,942 Speaker 2: Who hesitate, I'm like, they're fine. It's the ones that 679 00:34:23,982 --> 00:34:25,022 Speaker 2: are like my child. 680 00:34:25,261 --> 00:34:26,462 Speaker 1: Oh, let me tell you. 681 00:34:26,862 --> 00:34:30,062 Speaker 2: They grab the food and it's like, my child eats 682 00:34:30,102 --> 00:34:32,462 Speaker 2: four foods. Let's just say that. The list in my 683 00:34:32,462 --> 00:34:36,421 Speaker 2: phone of foods my Charlie's the God send for us 684 00:34:36,622 --> 00:34:39,301 Speaker 2: have been these things called oat bars and this would 685 00:34:39,382 --> 00:34:42,742 Speaker 2: work for kids. If that sounds fibrous, Yes, yes, fibrous 686 00:34:42,942 --> 00:34:45,221 Speaker 2: and has nutrients. And I'm just like, if she has 687 00:34:45,261 --> 00:34:47,181 Speaker 2: one of those, at least she had something. It's like 688 00:34:47,221 --> 00:34:49,261 Speaker 2: a really good music. But I would eat one. And 689 00:34:49,302 --> 00:34:52,622 Speaker 2: so it's oats. You put in bananas, the more ripe 690 00:34:52,661 --> 00:34:55,261 Speaker 2: they are, the better, and then you can literally throw 691 00:34:55,302 --> 00:34:57,821 Speaker 2: in like carrots or dates or prunes or one time 692 00:34:57,862 --> 00:34:59,821 Speaker 2: I throw on some beetroops, and then you check at 693 00:34:59,822 --> 00:35:02,021 Speaker 2: the oven and they last. I make them every week 694 00:35:02,181 --> 00:35:05,062 Speaker 2: and you can freeze them and whatever, and Luna lives 695 00:35:05,062 --> 00:35:06,821 Speaker 2: off them, and every time she eats them, I feel 696 00:35:06,862 --> 00:35:08,461 Speaker 2: like a good one because I know it has things 697 00:35:08,502 --> 00:35:11,301 Speaker 2: in it that is good. There is a link in 698 00:35:11,342 --> 00:35:13,462 Speaker 2: the show notes. It's I do not cook. There are 699 00:35:13,422 --> 00:35:15,142 Speaker 2: about two things I can cook and this is one 700 00:35:15,181 --> 00:35:18,102 Speaker 2: of them. And it has saved my life over the 701 00:35:18,181 --> 00:35:18,661 Speaker 2: last year. 702 00:35:18,741 --> 00:35:20,502 Speaker 1: And do you know what else is greed about it? 703 00:35:20,502 --> 00:35:24,181 Speaker 1: It matches your preferred color scheme. It does because. 704 00:35:23,942 --> 00:35:26,342 Speaker 2: It's smushed into the lounge. It doesn't matter beije lounge, brilliant. 705 00:35:26,382 --> 00:35:26,942 Speaker 1: It's fine. 706 00:35:27,382 --> 00:35:29,741 Speaker 2: That is all we have time for on Parenting Out 707 00:35:29,741 --> 00:35:32,902 Speaker 2: Loud today, but we will be back next Saturday morning. 708 00:35:33,062 --> 00:35:36,822 Speaker 2: See you then, bye bye bye