Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Maya acknowledges
Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast
Speaker 1: is recorded on.
Speaker 2: I think I just got to the point where I
Speaker 2: was the burden was too heavy. I was carrying around
Speaker 2: this secret I wanted to feel my best self, and
Speaker 2: it just it wasn't.
Speaker 3: It wasn't a.
Speaker 2: Great feeling, and I think the time spent carrying that around,
Speaker 2: you know. I think it wasn't until I was in
Speaker 2: my late forties where I was like, I'm just going
Speaker 2: to own this.
Speaker 4: For MoMA Mia, You're listening to no filter and I'm
Speaker 4: Meya Friedman. Here's something that I've noticed about famous people
Speaker 4: in Hollywood, particularly women. There's a difference between being a
Speaker 4: celebrity and being an actor. Kate Blenchett actor, Jennifer Anniston celebrity,
Speaker 4: Emma Stone actor, Angelina Jolie celebrity Toni Collett actor, Lively, celebrity,
Speaker 4: Meryl Street actor. It's quite a fun game to play,
Speaker 4: and it's not about success or talent, because being a
Speaker 4: celebrity is absolutely not a dis That's certainly not the
Speaker 4: lens through which I'm looking when I talk about this.
Speaker 4: Celebrities can win Oscars too, and they do. But I
Speaker 4: think there's a real difference because with celebrities, we know
Speaker 4: a lot about their lives, their relationships and their exes
Speaker 4: and their kids if they have them, their bodies, or
Speaker 4: their style, or their co stars or opinions, or maybe
Speaker 4: the causes they believe in, and oftentimes we probably know
Speaker 4: more about all of those things than we do about
Speaker 4: their work. But with actors, we draw a bit of
Speaker 4: a blank about their personal lives because they tend to
Speaker 4: disappear into their work and the characters that they play,
Speaker 4: and they don't give a lot of themselves publicly, whether
Speaker 4: it's in interviews or on social and that's not by accident.
Speaker 4: Gues has been an actor for most of her life,
Speaker 4: almost forty years, since her late teens when she was
Speaker 4: on Home and Away and Hey Dad, all the way
Speaker 4: through to.
Speaker 1: More recently, when she has been nominated.
Speaker 4: For one hundred acting awards and won forty six of them.
Speaker 4: She's one of the most famous actors of her generation,
Speaker 4: but I wouldn't call her a celebrity. Naomi Watts is
Speaker 4: fifty six now, and the reason that.
Speaker 1: I would put her in the.
Speaker 4: Actor category is because even though she was actually with
Speaker 4: another very famous actor, Liev Schreider, and they have two
Speaker 4: kids together, and the fact that one of her closest
Speaker 4: friends is Nicole Kidman.
Speaker 1: Naomi has always been.
Speaker 4: Very private about her off screen life. She's let her
Speaker 4: work very much do the talking. You probably didn't even
Speaker 4: know that she recently married actor Billy Crutter, and you
Speaker 4: probably didn't even know, even though they're both huge deals
Speaker 4: in Hollywood, again, because she's more of an actor than
Speaker 4: she is a celebrity now. A couple of years ago,
Speaker 4: something pretty interesting happened. I follow Naomi on socials because
Speaker 4: I think she's an incredible actor, and also we have
Speaker 4: some friends in common, and I noticed that she was
Speaker 4: starting to venture more into the.
Speaker 1: Public eye as herself.
Speaker 4: She was one of the first famous women to talk
Speaker 4: openly on social media no less about menopause. She experienced
Speaker 4: it far earlier than most women, and it caused her
Speaker 4: a huge amount of shame, something that she's only just
Speaker 4: recently decided to reject. She's written a book. It's called
Speaker 4: Dare I Say It? Everything I wish I'd known about menopause,
Speaker 4: and it is so good. It's partly a memoir because
Speaker 4: we learn a lot about Naomi's own experiences and her life.
Speaker 1: But it's also a feel guide because.
Speaker 4: It's packed with really useful information from experts for any
Speaker 4: woman who is in this.
Speaker 1: Life stage or about to hit this life stage.
Speaker 4: The thing you're about to discover about Naomi and I
Speaker 4: promise I'll get to the interview in a second.
Speaker 1: She is stupidly normal, like ridiculously normal. She doesn't seem
Speaker 1: like a celebrity.
Speaker 4: So maybe she's kind of inventing a new category because
Speaker 4: she's kicking these huge career goals as an actor. Maybe
Speaker 4: you saw her in Capodi Versus the Swans and the
Speaker 4: Watcher and a whole lot of stuff. She's having this
Speaker 4: major resurgence in her career. Everybody wants to work with her.
Speaker 4: The book is incredible while at the same time being
Speaker 4: really candid. So she's this incredible actor who only seems
Speaker 4: to be getting more and more accomplished and skilled at
Speaker 4: her craft, while at the same time she started to
Speaker 4: become really candid about her life publicly, and that is new.
Speaker 4: I started this conversation with Naomi discussing what she calls
Speaker 4: the bookends of shame in her life, which I thought
Speaker 4: was such an interesting way to talk about it, the
Speaker 4: fact that she started her period really late and the
Speaker 4: fact that she started perimenopause really early.
Speaker 1: Enjoy this delightful conversation with Naomi Watts.
Speaker 4: Can you tell me what you were ashamed of when
Speaker 4: you found out at thirty six that you were going
Speaker 4: into early menopause.
Speaker 2: Well, I was ashamed that I was, you know, thinking
Speaker 2: this was the end of everything, and you know, not
Speaker 2: just my fertility, my career, my use as a woman,
Speaker 2: which is absurd and I dig into that in the
Speaker 2: book as well, but this societal imprint of your worth
Speaker 2: is wrapped up in your fertility, and when that reproductive
Speaker 2: system breaks down, you're I mean, as doctor Gunter her
Speaker 2: quote is just so wonderful. You're just chucked in the pile,
Speaker 2: like that's.
Speaker 3: It, You're done.
Speaker 1: What's the point of view?
Speaker 2: Yeah, my way of saying is, oh am, I supposed
Speaker 2: to go to the corner and pull out my knitting
Speaker 2: needles and just rock on the chair. It really felt
Speaker 2: scary and that that created a lot of shame knowing
Speaker 2: and I think this speaks to the beginning book end.
Speaker 3: You just want to be like everyone else, You just
Speaker 3: want to.
Speaker 2: Be on the same page at the same time and
Speaker 2: not sort of go too far from the crowd that
Speaker 2: you're moving within. And certainly that's how it started with me,
Speaker 2: when everyone was having their period in.
Speaker 3: Their thirteen fourteen year old.
Speaker 2: Years and I was nowhere, and I went so far
Speaker 2: as to make myself be a part of that group
Speaker 2: so I could keep up with the Joneses and literally
Speaker 2: faked having a period and stuffed tampon up there, my
Speaker 2: poor little badge, and just so my boarding school friends
Speaker 2: would see a string and think that I was grown
Speaker 2: up too. So the minute I hit men well or
Speaker 2: started feeling symptoms and sort of was slowly testing the
Speaker 2: waters with some of my closest friends, and it was
Speaker 2: all met with Oh, don't.
Speaker 1: Be silly, there's no way.
Speaker 3: You're way too young.
Speaker 2: That's just ridiculous, you know, which instantly told me, Oh,
Speaker 2: this is not happening for anyone, and so you retreat,
Speaker 2: and then the shame begins.
Speaker 4: So many of us, well for me, my menopause and
Speaker 4: my pery symptoms and all of the emotions and physical
Speaker 4: symptoms that came with it. Happened when I was in
Speaker 4: a really good place in my career. I'd achieved a
Speaker 4: lot and I'd had three children. For you, it came
Speaker 4: in a very different place, and it happened early for you.
Speaker 4: A lot of women who have cancer treatment or medical
Speaker 4: issues will often be thrust early into menopause and might
Speaker 4: grapple with similar things. You hadn't had your children yet,
Speaker 4: and your career was You weren't yet, Naomi Watts in
Speaker 4: quote marks you were.
Speaker 1: Had you already done my Holland Drive?
Speaker 3: I had, and I was Naomi.
Speaker 2: Watts in as ridiculous as it sounds when you were
Speaker 2: saying it yourself, I had done not only my Holand Drive,
Speaker 2: but King Kong and The Ring.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you were already, Naomi Watts.
Speaker 3: I was playing an ngenoee in King Kong, and.
Speaker 2: Just at the tail end of that I, in fact,
Speaker 2: I think I went to New Zealand to do some
Speaker 2: pickups reshoots, and I'd already met my partner, who I
Speaker 2: knew we were trying to start a family, but hadn't
Speaker 2: succeeded at that point. And that's when an older friend
Speaker 2: of mine said, well, you might want to go and
Speaker 2: get your blood work taken. I was like, really why,
Speaker 2: and she said, just check your numbers. They can tell
Speaker 2: with hormones if that's having anything to do with you
Speaker 2: not succeeding it getting pregnant. So I said, okay, fine,
Speaker 2: went to my guynecologist, and then he called me back
Speaker 2: and he said, well, you know, what other symptoms have
Speaker 2: you been having, because these numbers suggest that you're close
Speaker 2: to menopause.
Speaker 3: And the word perry was not.
Speaker 1: No, it was not a thing.
Speaker 3: It wasn't a thing.
Speaker 2: And I mean it might have been known within the
Speaker 2: medical community, but it certainly wasn't a word I was
Speaker 2: familiar with right up until I was well past it.
Speaker 3: And that somehow feels like a much gentler word. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it does.
Speaker 4: It feels like a sort of an off ramp.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yeah, close to menopause did not sound like
Speaker 2: that sounded like a dive into the deep end, and
Speaker 2: especially at the precipice of wanting to start a family.
Speaker 1: So yeah.
Speaker 2: He asked me to if I'd gone through any symptoms,
Speaker 2: and I said.
Speaker 3: Well, night sweats.
Speaker 2: And I've been ticking those boxes when you have to
Speaker 2: do those like litany of questions night sweats for years.
Speaker 2: And I had chalked it up to our analogy to
Speaker 2: a certain food or maybe that extra glass of wine
Speaker 2: or you know, something that my body just wasn't tolerating.
Speaker 2: And then I talked about my periods being a little
Speaker 2: closer together, much lighter, much shorter, and he said, yeah, well,
Speaker 2: what about your mom? When did she go into metopause?
Speaker 2: And I said, oh shit, she went in at forty five.
Speaker 3: That's all I know. I didn't know anything else.
Speaker 2: I didn't know that she'd had a multitude of symptoms
Speaker 2: that she wasn't feeling great, and I didn't know that
Speaker 2: this had, you know, taken place over a passage of time.
Speaker 2: I just knew that she had stopped her periods at
Speaker 2: forty five, and I was thirty six at the time,
Speaker 2: so I still felt a long way away from that.
Speaker 2: And yeah, and I think he said, your numbers to
Speaker 2: get pregnant, you have to fall under sort of fifteen,
Speaker 2: and I was already in the high teens. And my
Speaker 2: blood tests after that were just going up and up.
Speaker 2: But yeah, there's no one specific test to say no,
Speaker 2: you are in menopause as well as you know.
Speaker 3: The one main.
Speaker 2: Signifier, I suppose is that you haven't had a menstruation
Speaker 2: for a full year.
Speaker 3: And then you get your menopause.
Speaker 2: Birthday, yepee and then from there on, your basically post
Speaker 2: menopausal or a menopausal.
Speaker 4: You decided to call your book dare I say it?
Speaker 4: And on the cover is a picture of you with
Speaker 4: a megaphone and fires coming.
Speaker 1: Out of it.
Speaker 4: That is not the kind of soft focused memoir that
Speaker 4: we would expect from someone as famous as you, or
Speaker 4: from a from.
Speaker 1: Any kind of woman. Really, and dare I say it?
Speaker 1: I want to ask about that because that does that
Speaker 1: speak to shame? Does it speak to anger? What's that about?
Speaker 1: Tell me about that decision.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, first of all, I want to say I
Speaker 2: never saw it as a memoir per se.
Speaker 3: But it's interesting you say that. So do you think
Speaker 3: that it as a memoir?
Speaker 4: Yeah, because when someone asked me, when I learned what
Speaker 4: a memoir was like an autobiography is like your whole life.
Speaker 4: A memoir might be a theme in your life or
Speaker 4: a period of time in your life.
Speaker 1: And to me, this is about a theme in your life.
Speaker 1: And it's not just about your life. It's about your
Speaker 1: life through the lens of menopause.
Speaker 4: But it's it's it's not just a like a textbook.
Speaker 4: There's a lot of personal stuff. You brought a lot
Speaker 4: of yourself to this book, I.
Speaker 3: Had to bring myself to it.
Speaker 2: You can't do this in half measure, and otherwise I
Speaker 2: really would have been to me, it would have been
Speaker 2: strictly a memoir where I'm just telling endless stories about myself.
Speaker 3: But it's shared.
Speaker 2: The focus is shared with the expertise of doctors, with
Speaker 2: other friends of mine, friends of friends, their stories very useful.
Speaker 3: All well, thank you.
Speaker 2: Also, I mean, it's the book I wanted when I
Speaker 2: was going through that because the Internet was not even
Speaker 2: really active, I had no place to go. And when I,
Speaker 2: as I told you, when i'd go to friends and
Speaker 2: I felt the doors closed, I was like internalizing everything
Speaker 2: and then thinking I was losing my mind because I
Speaker 2: didn't have an outlet. So this is supposed to be
Speaker 2: a cozy conversation on account with your girlfriend.
Speaker 1: We talk about Mamma Maya.
Speaker 4: The three pillars of everything we do are help, heart,
Speaker 4: and human and this book is all three of those
Speaker 4: things for me. It's funny, it's incredibly helpful, and it
Speaker 4: has so much heart. And it's the book I needed
Speaker 4: too because it made me feel sort of seen, heard
Speaker 4: and understood, which is another thing that we talk about
Speaker 4: when you can meet unicating with women.
Speaker 1: But dare I say it? Tell me about that?
Speaker 3: So I love?
Speaker 2: I mean, as you know, choosing titles, names for anything
Speaker 2: is virtually impossible.
Speaker 3: Everything's taken, you know.
Speaker 2: I've had it that kind of difficulty with my company
Speaker 2: Stripes Beauty as well naming products, and it's just it
Speaker 2: takes a lot of effort. I've always been into wordplace
Speaker 2: and expressions and to speak.
Speaker 3: To your point about heart, humor and help.
Speaker 2: I want all of those things incorporated into every bit
Speaker 2: of messaging I'm trying to put across.
Speaker 3: And yes, I wanted it to feel bold. I did.
Speaker 3: Dare to say it? Why?
Speaker 2: Because there was a need And I'm sick of holding
Speaker 2: the secret and shame and you know, I feel like shit.
Speaker 2: And so the chances are every other woman who's lucky
Speaker 2: enough to be able to go through menopause to live
Speaker 2: that long is going feel some version of that. Some
Speaker 2: might sail through and don't need to, you know, have
Speaker 2: one single conversation, but it's just nice to know, you know, Hey,
Speaker 2: are you going through that?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Me too.
Speaker 2: I see it's tough. How about we talk about it.
Speaker 2: I wanted to create a conversation that helped women feel
Speaker 2: as you say, seen, and yes, the humor and the
Speaker 2: irreverence were all part of it because it's so much
Speaker 2: more palatable.
Speaker 3: It's not all doom and gloom, although.
Speaker 2: There is plenty of it, and I'm not going to
Speaker 2: shy away from it, but we can approach it with
Speaker 2: some humor. You know, tell these ridiculous, horrific stories and
Speaker 2: then you know, as you remove yourself from them, they
Speaker 2: can be funny. And you got through it, and through
Speaker 2: that you learned something, you survived, and you can share
Speaker 2: it with your friend, so it's a little less echy
Speaker 2: for them.
Speaker 3: And so that was sort of the point of the book.
Speaker 2: And the dare I say it was just it's an
Speaker 2: expression that my grandmother used all the time, and as
Speaker 2: you may know, she's the matriarch of my family and
Speaker 2: has left me with all of her values. And yeah,
Speaker 2: it just felt like it was bold, cheeky and fun.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm daring. I hope it doesn't feel too uncomfortable
Speaker 3: for you.
Speaker 2: It certainly was for me, and I'm guessing all of
Speaker 2: these other women that had to carry around the same
Speaker 2: kind of secrets.
Speaker 3: But let's help you tolerate it more.
Speaker 4: After this shortbreak, Naomi and I discuss what it's like
Speaker 4: to be a woman in her fifties in Hollywood and
Speaker 4: also how she met her husband, Billy craut Up. Stay
Speaker 4: with us, your experience is I mean, there are so
Speaker 4: many universal things about going through men, and some people
Speaker 4: might think, oh, well, she's a Hollywood star, she's one
Speaker 4: of the most famous women in the world. It would
Speaker 4: be different for her. And what was so funny about
Speaker 4: your book is that some of the examples and some
Speaker 4: of the ways it manifested for you were not like
Speaker 4: a regular person, like the forgetfulness and the story you
Speaker 4: tell about you were going to the Golden Globes and
Speaker 4: you were texting with a friend and you were just
Speaker 4: you missed the boarding call, so you missed your flight.
Speaker 4: You had to get on another flight, and you had to.
Speaker 1: Go the whole way.
Speaker 4: It was packed with your Golden Globes dress on your lap.
Speaker 4: Now that's probably not an anecdote that would happen to
Speaker 4: many other women, but we've all had that same sort
Speaker 4: of experience.
Speaker 1: It's like celebrities, they're just like us, right, But.
Speaker 4: You live in this microcosm of you know, like our
Speaker 4: culture on steroids.
Speaker 1: In terms of Hollywood and the.
Speaker 4: Way it judges women for getting older, and it would
Speaker 4: seem the outside that the worst thing you can do
Speaker 4: in Hollywood is get older.
Speaker 1: How did it play out for you?
Speaker 4: I mean, there's the private, the secret of it and
Speaker 4: the shame of it when you were going through it.
Speaker 4: But when you decided to speak out about it and
Speaker 4: be public about it and start a company and write
Speaker 4: this book, what were the considerations that you had to
Speaker 4: take into account and the people around you in terms
Speaker 4: of what impact it would have on your career.
Speaker 2: So in the I started late, as many of your
Speaker 2: listeners may know, not by choice. It just didn't turn
Speaker 2: out that I got going in my early twenties, Like
Speaker 2: lots of actors I tried, didn't didn't go so well.
Speaker 2: And not until David Lynch cast me in muholland Drive
Speaker 2: was I known within the industry.
Speaker 3: And then things kicked off pretty quickly after that.
Speaker 2: And I remember at the time an agent saying, well,
Speaker 2: it is all it's all going to dry up.
Speaker 5: For quite literally, yeah, but so you better put the
Speaker 5: pedal to the metal and just go like gangbusters working.
Speaker 3: So it's like, oh my god, and why why is
Speaker 3: it all over?
Speaker 1: What do you mean?
Speaker 3: And they said, well, you know, kind of what.
Speaker 2: Happens is you work until you're you know, unfuckable, and sorry,
Speaker 2: I don't know if you can swear.
Speaker 1: I've heard that a lot.
Speaker 4: I've heard that a lot, and that's part of metopause, right,
Speaker 4: it's like the official time when you're not fuckable anymore?
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, like and what does that mean?
Speaker 2: Oh okay, right, when you're not producing babies, you're not.
Speaker 3: Fuckable, they don't want to fuck you.
Speaker 2: Doesn't sound right or fair, you know, like, but it
Speaker 2: sat with me and I did work like crazy for
Speaker 2: that ten years, and I felt the loom and then
Speaker 2: you knows, as you know, I was then told I
Speaker 2: was going into early menopause, and so I was definitely
Speaker 2: not going to share that secret. I definitely wish I
Speaker 2: had a source, a resource of some kind for me
Speaker 2: to feel less alone, like a book, like the internet,
Speaker 2: like friends, doctors.
Speaker 3: Even to talk to.
Speaker 2: There was no one, and I think I just got
Speaker 2: to the point where I was the burden was too heavy.
Speaker 2: I was carrying around this secret. I wanted to feel
Speaker 2: my best self and it just it wasn't. It wasn't
Speaker 2: a great feeling.
Speaker 3: And I think the time spent carrying that around, you know.
Speaker 2: I think it wasn't until I was in my late
Speaker 2: forties where I was like, I'm just going to own this.
Speaker 2: And it was really a lot to do with meeting
Speaker 2: my husband he's now my husband, and being able to
Speaker 2: be brave enough with him. It was really then from
Speaker 2: there and he wasn't like, oh ick, that's not did.
Speaker 2: He didn't have any squeamishness around it. It was just like, oh, great, okay,
Speaker 2: what should we do. The minute I felt safe sharing
Speaker 2: it with my partner, I just kind of went surround
Speaker 2: sound and just and told everyone. And I'd already been
Speaker 2: in the beauty space before with under Beauty and learned
Speaker 2: a lot about skincare and stuff, and the skincare piece
Speaker 2: of it that was a massive issue the symptom for me,
Speaker 2: and I had no idea that that was related to menopause.
Speaker 2: I had raging, itchy, agitated red skin, and I was
Speaker 2: on TV hours and hours of the day and it
Speaker 2: was just really uncomfortable and nothing that a cortisone cream
Speaker 2: would fix more than a day or two.
Speaker 3: It was just I was in a loop.
Speaker 2: And it wasn't until I did deep research that some
Speaker 2: of these ingredients in these products I'd been using before
Speaker 2: were just now not going to work for me any longer.
Speaker 2: They were too harsh to stripping, and so I wanted
Speaker 2: to create a line. And that's when I came up
Speaker 2: with the idea for Stripe's Beauty that was specifically targeting women,
Speaker 2: were speaking to women with those same symptoms and targeting
Speaker 2: their needs massive hydration loss.
Speaker 4: Basically, when you decided to speak out, were the people
Speaker 4: around you who manage your career nervous? Because would that
Speaker 4: change how you were seen in your industry? Would it
Speaker 4: change the parts that you were considered for.
Speaker 2: I certainly thought about it myself over and over again.
Speaker 3: It's it's a good idea or a terrible idea.
Speaker 2: I really oscillated back and forth, and I took my time.
Speaker 2: It took years to come to develop the nerve to
Speaker 2: actually finally say.
Speaker 3: It out loud, and like I said, the.
Speaker 2: Exhaustion, I thought, you know, this is too much to carry,
Speaker 2: and almost naming every proper that you have before somebody
Speaker 2: else does is empowering. Once I learned the statistics that
Speaker 2: all of these women are going into menopause every single day,
Speaker 2: and that's fifty percent of the population that will get there.
Speaker 2: Why is it such a taboo thing? This just doesn't
Speaker 2: make any sense.
Speaker 4: Have you noticed that it's changed the way you've been perceived?
Speaker 4: Do you get sent difference? Well?
Speaker 2: Now, I mean, you know, I'm working on a show
Speaker 2: with all women right now and menopause. There's lines in
Speaker 2: it that's addressing menopause.
Speaker 3: There was in Feud as well. They know I'm not
Speaker 3: afraid to talk about it. Obviously.
Speaker 4: You said you've become like the Hollywood go to confessor
Speaker 4: that women like famous women just text you I'm there,
Speaker 4: I've arrived.
Speaker 1: What does that feel like?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny and I welcome them. I say, yeah,
Speaker 2: bring it on. What do you need a doctor? Do
Speaker 2: you need a shoulder?
Speaker 3: Do you need well?
Speaker 2: You know, how can I help? And I really appreciate it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: people want to confess. They don't want to carry it
Speaker 2: on their own. And knowing that I have done, you know,
Speaker 2: a few years of researching it, experiencing it, I think
Speaker 2: that puts them on a fast track of feeling, you know,
Speaker 2: a little bit more comfortable in the beginning of that way.
Speaker 4: For actors, just back to your career for a second.
Speaker 4: For actors, it seems like from the outside there's two types.
Speaker 4: There's celebrities and there's actors. And with actors, from my perspective,
Speaker 4: it seems like they can't You don't know a lot
Speaker 4: about their private life. They don't do necessarily a lot
Speaker 4: of press, they don't post a lot on social It's
Speaker 4: about disappearing into the work, and that does seem to
Speaker 4: be like a choice. And again no judgment on either choice,
Speaker 4: but they do seem to be different kind of paths.
Speaker 4: And I was so interested to see a few years
Speaker 4: ago when you started talking about menopause. It wasn't just
Speaker 4: coming out as a menopausal woman, but it was also
Speaker 4: making a different choice. I'm going to allow the public
Speaker 4: to know me as Naomi more than.
Speaker 1: Just the character that I play.
Speaker 4: I was so fascinated by that decision and why you
Speaker 4: made it at that time in your life.
Speaker 3: I think it.
Speaker 2: Didn't it happen with COVID, you know, where we were
Speaker 2: all trying to connect with each other, whether that was
Speaker 2: on Instagram and being foolish or putting some message across
Speaker 2: that was hopefully connecting women with other women. Think and
Speaker 2: certainly the idea to launch stripes happened at the beginning
Speaker 2: of COVID. It was something I'd been percolating, but like
Speaker 2: I said, I didn't have the courage to go forward.
Speaker 3: But when we were.
Speaker 2: All stuck at home with nothing but our ideas, family
Speaker 2: and you know, dreams, basically, that's when I started to
Speaker 2: really formulate and just go, you know, fuck this, why not?
Speaker 3: Why not?
Speaker 1: The story of how you and Billy met.
Speaker 4: I had never asked you guys about your origin story before.
Speaker 4: I love people's origin stories. But what I didn't realize
Speaker 4: is that you had met on a job and that
Speaker 4: you'd actually played lovers and that you'd had sex scenes together.
Speaker 1: Acting is so weird.
Speaker 3: It's so weird, strange job wearing people, seeing other people
Speaker 3: so weird.
Speaker 4: And you were like, we've been dry humping. But I
Speaker 4: just recently ended my long term relationship with the father
Speaker 4: of my children, and I wasn't.
Speaker 1: It didn't occur to me, like can you, like, how
Speaker 1: does it? How does it.
Speaker 4: Change from oh, we're just dry humping, and like how.
Speaker 2: You get to know that person? It's the in between moments,
Speaker 2: it's not the dry humping. Although there was a moment
Speaker 2: after we'd got to know each other, which was several
Speaker 2: months of sitting around talking about you know.
Speaker 3: Any list of things, whether it was kids or.
Speaker 2: Acting or you know, business travel.
Speaker 3: You know, we covered.
Speaker 2: Everything in these sometimes hour long lighting setups, and we
Speaker 2: just got along. And you notice how someone works with
Speaker 2: other people, not just your connectivity, but how they treat
Speaker 2: other people, how people respond to them. You know, you
Speaker 2: learn a lot about each other through you know, twelve
Speaker 2: fourteen hour days.
Speaker 4: Sometimes does it start off as like because of the
Speaker 4: physical intimacy, does it?
Speaker 1: Is it sometimes like any other connection.
Speaker 4: It's like sometimes small talk and then sometimes you really
Speaker 4: get to know someone and it goes deeper or do
Speaker 4: you just go straight to the deeper because you already
Speaker 4: kind of dry humping, so it's a bit of a shortcut.
Speaker 3: Oh gosh, Mia, we're both consummate professionals. I mean, Billy really,
Speaker 3: seriously is there for the work?
Speaker 2: And then I think yes, some gentle, nice, friendly conversations
Speaker 2: developed over time. And then when later when we saw
Speaker 2: each other, and by the way, we did meet here
Speaker 2: and there throughout New York, but that was when we
Speaker 2: came to know each other properly on the set of Gypsy. Later,
Speaker 2: outside of work, we had friends who were scheming, who
Speaker 2: were trying to put us together, and that's when you
Speaker 2: learn even more about each other, not just who they
Speaker 2: are in the workplace, how they interact. But that's when
Speaker 2: I think the door, the crack of the door opened
Speaker 2: and the boundaries sort of slightly.
Speaker 1: Shifted looking for it. I was not.
Speaker 3: Looking for it.
Speaker 2: And you know, though we'd been separated for a good year,
Speaker 2: we'd only just officially announced it and told the kids.
Speaker 3: So I certainly wasn't in any.
Speaker 2: You know, by any means, looking to partner up with anyone.
Speaker 3: And it was a very very slow.
Speaker 1: Start for a lot of us.
Speaker 4: We go through for those people who are in long
Speaker 4: term relationships, A lot of women go through menopause with
Speaker 4: the person who knew them before. So it's kind of
Speaker 4: which is it provides its own challenges, But there's a
Speaker 4: certain I don't know, safety in not having to come
Speaker 4: out to sort of have it happen to someone who's
Speaker 4: known you for a long time. When you're on the
Speaker 4: other side of it and you're dating someone, Can you
Speaker 4: talk about that that first night when you came home
Speaker 4: and with the patches, Yeah, and what went through your mind?
Speaker 3: It was mortifying, And.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm always going to go very carefully. So I
Speaker 2: already had carried the shame in private for quite some time,
Speaker 2: so to begin, you know, exchanging touchy feely moments with
Speaker 2: somebody was quite scary. I didn't know how my body
Speaker 2: was working so much anymore. And I, yeah, this patch.
Speaker 2: There is many different ways to take hormone replacement therapy,
Speaker 2: as you know, at this point in time, I was
Speaker 2: on the patch. And if anyone's taken the patch before
Speaker 2: you know, it leaves a nasty spear yeap, Yeah, like
Speaker 2: that you have to.
Speaker 4: Like scrub off. I can't believe a doctor told you
Speaker 4: to take it off with car oil.
Speaker 3: Yeah. He was like, it's the only thing that works.
Speaker 2: So I, yeah, I got caught up in the moment
Speaker 2: and had to excuse myself. And again this is in
Speaker 2: the book, which is why I feel like I'm okay
Speaker 2: telling it. Billy has signed off on it. But yeah,
Speaker 2: I couldn't get not just I took off the patch,
Speaker 2: but the mark. And I was just in there for
Speaker 2: ages trying to, you know, get rid of any trace,
Speaker 2: like he.
Speaker 3: Would think this would What was wrong with you? What's
Speaker 3: that all over your body?
Speaker 4: You know? How did you feel you had to take
Speaker 4: off the patch because someone here was going.
Speaker 1: To see you naked.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is the end.
Speaker 2: I'm I'm only here, you know, like as a as
Speaker 2: an aging woman, I'm not going to be able to
Speaker 2: I mean, we hadn't even had those kind of discussions about,
Speaker 2: you know, would he want to extend his family or anything.
Speaker 4: Ready in your forties though, So this is so interesting
Speaker 4: about the shame that you carried.
Speaker 1: It's not like it would have been a shock, no,
Speaker 1: I know, but it's just it's how you felt.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a shame that's.
Speaker 2: Like yourself, and it's my fault. I did this to myself.
Speaker 2: I brought myself onto menopause early because I did X
Speaker 2: y Z you know.
Speaker 4: And you needed to literally scrub away the signs that
Speaker 4: you were not no longer fertile.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, can you imagine? And I literally am, I
Speaker 3: actually can came.
Speaker 2: Out after being in there for far too long without
Speaker 2: seeming completely weird on the other side of the door,
Speaker 2: and it was like, is everything okay?
Speaker 3: And and I.
Speaker 2: Just was like yes, well no, but yes, And I.
Speaker 3: Was just in there. Look, I'm in menopause. Should I
Speaker 3: just leave?
Speaker 2: I'm sure this is going to be Oh you got
Speaker 2: and and he was like what, because like we're just
Speaker 2: getting fine and well, you know.
Speaker 4: And then he said something lovely to you which we're
Speaker 4: not going to talk about, but that's in the book
Speaker 4: that made you feel in that mo so safe.
Speaker 1: And clearly it's like it unlocked something in you.
Speaker 4: That just gave you the confidence to not just be
Speaker 4: comfortable with him, but be comfortable with the world.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's an incredible gift.
Speaker 2: It is. It was a level of safety that not
Speaker 2: only did I want to, I really really needed and.
Speaker 3: It was, like you say, a powerful gift.
Speaker 4: The rest of my conversation with Naomi, we talk about
Speaker 4: beauty and botox and the surgery she will and won't
Speaker 4: have lots.
Speaker 1: More after this short break. You talk about.
Speaker 4: Aging as well, and it's something that we all. I mean,
Speaker 4: aging is exhausting, Naomi, Like it's even for someone whose
Speaker 4: faces are not connected without work at all. It just
Speaker 4: feels like there are so many choices to make. Do
Speaker 4: I get botox, do I not? How much do I
Speaker 4: get how often do I get it? Do I get
Speaker 4: a bit of filler?
Speaker 1: Do I do this? Do it?
Speaker 4: And all these different treatments and all these things you
Speaker 4: can try and all the money and then do I
Speaker 4: go on a zempic like it does feel completely exhausting.
Speaker 4: How do you personally navigate all of those choices when
Speaker 4: you are so under scrutiny.
Speaker 2: I like, I'm obsessed with knowing everything, researching it, taking consultations,
Speaker 2: even talking to friends.
Speaker 3: What if wait, you did this, you did what? Okay?
Speaker 3: And what was the recovery? How was it? You know?
Speaker 2: And I've certainly experimented with little bits and pieces in there.
Speaker 3: I say this in the book.
Speaker 2: For now, I'm going to just tolerate my jewels and
Speaker 2: hopefully you will too for now, you know, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: for now on camera and hope to you know, for
Speaker 2: Jesus that the DP has.
Speaker 3: Enough talent he can light me.
Speaker 1: Well the director of photography.
Speaker 4: Yeah, do you feel vulnerable when you go onto a
Speaker 4: set or I don't know how these things happen like cast,
Speaker 4: not that you'd have to audition for anything anymore, but
Speaker 4: it must feel vulnerable, like in the makeup chair with
Speaker 4: the director or the director of photography.
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2: And I always, you know, I try to just get
Speaker 2: ahead of it, like you know, in the best way.
Speaker 2: I just often go over to the DPDP in Australia
Speaker 2: and say, hey, these are not my friend and they're
Speaker 2: not going to be your friend either.
Speaker 3: So these littlejowl jowls here, they create pockets.
Speaker 2: And if you can help me out, and it's not
Speaker 2: always you know, bounce.
Speaker 3: That I need, I need a negative light.
Speaker 2: You know, I've learned, you know, I know I know
Speaker 2: the tricks and you know it's See, there was a
Speaker 2: time where I would think, oh, I can't believe that
Speaker 2: actress spoke to the DP or the director like that.
Speaker 3: That's but you know, we.
Speaker 2: We have to do that to look after ourselves, and
Speaker 2: especially when you're working on a low.
Speaker 3: Budget movie and you.
Speaker 2: Know everyone's fighting time and so you know, all things
Speaker 2: get fixed later on. Amazing things that can happen in post.
Speaker 2: But I want to try and put as much as
Speaker 2: I can the message forward that it's okay.
Speaker 3: It's okay to age.
Speaker 2: It's a privilege, and you know it is uncomfortable, it's
Speaker 2: not for the faint of heart, but it's okay to
Speaker 2: do nothing, and it's okay to do lots of things
Speaker 2: if you want to, whatever suits your fancy. And I'm
Speaker 2: not swearing off it. By the way, there may be
Speaker 2: a where never say never. And I say this in
Speaker 2: the book Marie Condy, who was like everything had to
Speaker 2: be exactly in place until she had three kids, and
Speaker 2: then she changed her whole narrative because who can have
Speaker 2: everything in the exact precision when you've got kids flying
Speaker 2: around the place. Well, the same goes for me. I'd
Speaker 2: like to promote healthy aging, but at the same time,
Speaker 2: if they come up with something that makes me feel
Speaker 2: so much better than I might just do it.
Speaker 1: I want to ask you two more questions.
Speaker 4: The first is about grief, because that's something that takes
Speaker 4: a lot of us by surprise. I was going through
Speaker 4: perimenopause and menopause, also through COVID.
Speaker 1: And I would go for these walks and I would
Speaker 1: just cry. Every day.
Speaker 4: I would cry and I couldn't My son had moved
Speaker 4: out of home, and I couldn't really work out why
Speaker 4: I was crying. I thought it was about that, and
Speaker 4: now looking back, I realized.
Speaker 1: That I was grieving.
Speaker 4: I was in this transition process between you know, menopause
Speaker 4: and perimenopause is a transition, right, It's like reverse puberty,
Speaker 4: and I was.
Speaker 1: Grieving for.
Speaker 4: What I was leaving behind. What was your experience of grief.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, there's the physicological side of things
Speaker 2: and then there's the emotional side. And I remember actually
Speaker 2: when I had my first baby, that drop in hormones
Speaker 2: and when you start you leave the hospital and you're
Speaker 2: just sobbing and you have no idea why you've got
Speaker 2: a beautiful baby, and you're like, I don't understand what's happening.
Speaker 3: Like anything could make me cry.
Speaker 2: So there's that when when you're through peri metopause, this
Speaker 2: like the hormones just suddenly flood out of your body
Speaker 2: as well as yes, you're grieving this change, this transition.
Speaker 3: You're a different you and you're not young anymore.
Speaker 2: How do you how do you walk through this next
Speaker 2: period of your life as.
Speaker 3: This new you?
Speaker 2: And it's it can be scary. And the saving grace
Speaker 2: for me has been through connecting with other women and
Speaker 2: sharing my deepest, darkest secrets, my truth and knowing that
Speaker 2: we're not alone and we grieve all the time. Every
Speaker 2: day is there is a little version of grief from
Speaker 2: beginning to the end of our lives. And it doesn't
Speaker 2: have to look like a death in the family or
Speaker 2: a friend, or it's it's losing a job, or it's
Speaker 2: saying goodbye to your parents because you're leaving the country,
Speaker 2: or you know, any big or small way there is
Speaker 2: grief involved.
Speaker 3: And crying.
Speaker 2: We talk about this in the book is so cathartic.
Speaker 2: It's free therapy therapy.
Speaker 4: I love how you said that crying is free therapy.
Speaker 4: I'd never thought about it like that. And you know,
Speaker 4: you also talk about the non free therapy, that the
Speaker 4: pain kind of therapy, which is also really.
Speaker 3: I a big crier, Like, yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 2: You know, people see my movies and think, oh wow,
Speaker 2: she must be an emotional wreck.
Speaker 3: But I'm pretty stoic.
Speaker 1: And playful, which is something that.
Speaker 2: As Yes, it's another way of getting away from the grief.
Speaker 3: So but it is another version of that.
Speaker 2: It is like sharing something that you're afraid to feel.
Speaker 2: But I think you know, the book, the Company, Stripes Beauty,
Speaker 2: and my movie career, they're all kind of a meshed.
Speaker 2: They're all about hopefully giving people permission to feel something.
Speaker 1: It's very generous what you've done.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 1: It is, no, it is very generous.
Speaker 4: My last question is about what are the good bits.
Speaker 2: I would say, you know, the women finding those women,
Speaker 2: and they're the ones that you've known for a long time,
Speaker 2: that you've brought through decades. That just gets deeper and deeper,
Speaker 2: and then there's actually room for new ones, which is
Speaker 2: I never would have thought that I could create friendships
Speaker 2: after my forties with my life as full as it is,
Speaker 2: But I still have room. I'm still making great connections
Speaker 2: with women who have similar stories. So I would say, yeah,
Speaker 2: they're my teachers. None of the women around me are that.
Speaker 2: They're not suffering fools. They're smart, they're funny, they're adventurous.
Speaker 2: So I'm really proud of those. And yeah, getting honest
Speaker 2: in your relationship communication is everything. It's the gateway too
Speaker 2: far less suffering and not just in your relationship at work,
Speaker 2: you know. And I'm so glad that all of this
Speaker 2: has led to, you know, more ease with the conversation
Speaker 2: surrounding menopause.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: And I've had experiences where I'm stopped on the streets
Speaker 2: now me and this is one of the good bits where.
Speaker 3: I think, oh God, I haven't got my lippyon.
Speaker 2: They're going to want a selfie, you know, because it's
Speaker 2: a movie in me or something, and they say, I
Speaker 2: just want you to know I had a conversation with
Speaker 2: my husband, and I never thought I'd be able to
Speaker 2: talk about it.
Speaker 3: And it's all because of you. Thank you, thank you
Speaker 3: for creating the dialogue. And that is so meaningful to me.
Speaker 2: That is, you know, just for one person, and that
Speaker 2: one person might tell another person. That is I feel
Speaker 2: like my job has is done, and you know, I
Speaker 2: feel proud of having taken the risk to all of it.
Speaker 1: So how are you so normal?
Speaker 3: Am I? Normal?
Speaker 1: How I am that you're stupidly normal?
Speaker 4: And it's like I've met a lot of famous people,
Speaker 4: but it's like you're not famous.
Speaker 1: They're different to you. And I've never seen anyone.
Speaker 4: Where their fame as lightly as you wear yours. And
Speaker 4: I've been thinking a lot about that. And is it
Speaker 4: because do you think you weren't famous when you were
Speaker 4: really young and so you became you were a fully
Speaker 4: formed person. People say you freeze at the age, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think I nothing happened until thirty thirty one,
Speaker 2: so I was fully formed. I've spent most of my
Speaker 2: life not famous, although now it's getting it.
Speaker 1: It's getting half half.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: The only time I would say I exploit my fame
Speaker 2: is to get a restaurant.
Speaker 3: At table, you know, at a restaurant. That's when I
Speaker 3: might call ahead and.
Speaker 2: Hope, hope that that name might shift someone from a
Speaker 2: no to a yes.
Speaker 4: Well, you are a gift. Your book is a gift.
Speaker 4: Your work is a gift. We haven't really spoken about
Speaker 4: your work, but I mean, obviously watching this renaissance that
Speaker 4: you're having. You've always worked steadily, but it seems like,
Speaker 4: you know, you've become amused for Ryan Murphy and people
Speaker 4: have been looking at you in a different way, and
Speaker 4: you're getting to do the most extraordinary work and you
Speaker 4: just keep getting better and better on screen and off it.
Speaker 4: So you know, I just thank you, thank you for
Speaker 4: writing this book and being in the world.
Speaker 3: Oh thanks Mia, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 4: See I told you that she was stupidly normal. Isn't
Speaker 4: she delightful? She just buzzes out of frequency. That is
Speaker 4: very normal, like the girlfriend that you've had for a
Speaker 4: really long time. There are so many elements to Naomi's
Speaker 4: story that are best left in her own words as
Speaker 4: she's written them, Like she has this experience with sex
Speaker 4: toys which made me laugh so much that she wrote
Speaker 4: about so we've popped the link to her book, Dare
Speaker 4: I Say It? In the show notes. Now the executive
Speaker 4: producer I've No Filter. His name A Brown Audio Production
Speaker 4: is by Jacob Brown and I'm your host, Miya Friedman.
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me in your ears.
Speaker 3: M