WEBVTT - Sarah Kopp Married Her Groomer, Then Fought Back 0:00:10.365 --> 0:00:15.005 You're listening to a Mother Mia podcast. Mama Mia acknowledges 0:00:15.045 --> 0:00:17.685 the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast 0:00:17.765 --> 0:00:18.525 is recorded on. 0:00:18.685 --> 0:00:21.765 I remember the first time he kissed me, he came 0:00:21.845 --> 0:00:26.365 up behind me. I froze. I just went into complete dissociation. 0:00:26.765 --> 0:00:32.005 I was unresponsive. I just didn't move and like, looking back, 0:00:32.125 --> 0:00:35.365 it was just a complete fear response, you know, And 0:00:35.765 --> 0:00:39.605 it just baffles me that he would continue when someone 0:00:39.645 --> 0:00:43.725 is so unresponsive, you know, like, yeah, as scary. 0:00:48.645 --> 0:00:51.845 Hello, and welcome to No Filter. I'm Kate lane Brook 0:00:52.005 --> 0:00:56.005 and today's episode is one of those conversations that stays 0:00:56.045 --> 0:01:00.725 with you long after it's over. We're speaking with Sarah Kopp, 0:01:01.525 --> 0:01:06.045 a woman whose life was dramatically shaped by an experience 0:01:06.085 --> 0:01:10.245 that no one should ever have to endure. As a teenager, 0:01:11.285 --> 0:01:15.645 Sarah was groomed by a teacher, a man she trusted, 0:01:16.365 --> 0:01:20.005 a person meant to guide and protect her, and that 0:01:20.205 --> 0:01:24.925 betrayal would cast a long shadow over her life, leading 0:01:24.965 --> 0:01:29.725 her into a complex and painful journey that eventually included 0:01:30.525 --> 0:01:36.405 marrying him. It's a difficult story, so friends, please listen mindfully. 0:01:37.365 --> 0:01:40.645 It took immense courage for Sarah to confront her past 0:01:41.525 --> 0:01:45.485 to report him to police and to step into a 0:01:45.605 --> 0:01:50.765 role of advocacy and change. Today, Sarah is the founder 0:01:50.805 --> 0:01:54.965 of step In for Kids, a powerful organization dedicated to 0:01:55.045 --> 0:02:00.565 protecting children from abuse and supporting survivors. In this episode, 0:02:00.685 --> 0:02:06.805 we explore Sarah's story with honesty, compassion, and care, her 0:02:06.925 --> 0:02:12.645 journey through trauma, account of blay, and ultimately courage. It's 0:02:12.645 --> 0:02:17.485 a story about survival, it's a story about resilience, and 0:02:17.725 --> 0:02:22.045 it's a story about the transformative power of speaking out 0:02:22.525 --> 0:02:28.605 and abandoning shame. Sarah Copp, Welcome to No Filter. 0:02:29.205 --> 0:02:30.445 Thank you, thanks for having me. 0:02:31.165 --> 0:02:38.565 Your story is so extraordinary that I do not know 0:02:38.645 --> 0:02:42.965 how everybody in the country doesn't know it. And in 0:02:43.005 --> 0:02:47.565 a climate where there's a lot of conversation about grooming 0:02:48.285 --> 0:02:53.565 young women, in your case, the responsibilities of teachers, what 0:02:53.725 --> 0:02:59.005 happened to you is so incredible that I would like 0:02:59.205 --> 0:03:04.205 you to take me back, if you can, to the 0:03:04.285 --> 0:03:08.325 time when you were fourteen. You were a high school 0:03:08.405 --> 0:03:12.885 student at school in Queensland. Who were you then? 0:03:13.485 --> 0:03:16.605 Yeah, when I suppose when I was fourteen, before you know, 0:03:16.685 --> 0:03:22.085 all of it happened, I was very fun, loving girl. 0:03:22.725 --> 0:03:24.805 I was into my dancing. You know that was my 0:03:24.965 --> 0:03:28.805 massive passion. I danced every afternoon if I could, you know, 0:03:29.045 --> 0:03:31.485 and on the weekends and things like that with my classes. 0:03:32.085 --> 0:03:35.605 I had a excellent social life with my friends. We 0:03:35.685 --> 0:03:37.285 you know, I grew up in Harvey Bay, so we 0:03:37.285 --> 0:03:40.005 were always at the beach, hanging out and just having 0:03:40.045 --> 0:03:43.605 a good time, good relationships with the people around me 0:03:43.645 --> 0:03:46.205 and my family and things like that. I did well 0:03:46.245 --> 0:03:48.565 at school. I was a bit of a bit of 0:03:48.605 --> 0:03:52.325 a nerd, I suppose, you know, had good grades, tried hard, 0:03:52.445 --> 0:03:56.845 involved myself in all the extracurricular activities and things like that. 0:03:57.005 --> 0:03:59.725 So yeah, I'd say, you know, I was. I was 0:03:59.765 --> 0:04:02.645 a kid that was pretty squared away and just enjoying 0:04:02.925 --> 0:04:04.525 enjoying being a kid, I suppose. 0:04:04.725 --> 0:04:08.085 And also in the cusp of anyone who's been a 0:04:08.085 --> 0:04:11.405 fourteen year old girl, girl on the cusp of womanhood, 0:04:12.245 --> 0:04:14.805 or anyone who's loved or known a fourteen year old 0:04:14.885 --> 0:04:18.285 girl knows what that period is like, where things are 0:04:18.285 --> 0:04:21.485 in flux and things are starting to blossom, and you're 0:04:21.525 --> 0:04:25.485 filled sometimes with insecurity and sometimes with excitement and the 0:04:25.525 --> 0:04:31.045 possibility of life. And then a new teacher arrived at 0:04:31.045 --> 0:04:32.045 your school. 0:04:32.525 --> 0:04:37.165 His name, yep, his name is Paul Greally h So, yeah, 0:04:37.205 --> 0:04:40.005 he started the year that I was in year ten. 0:04:40.605 --> 0:04:44.405 He was a pe teacher, correct, And did he become 0:04:44.805 --> 0:04:46.085 your pe teacher? 0:04:46.485 --> 0:04:46.805 Yeah? 0:04:46.845 --> 0:04:51.485 So he became my actual teacher in the second term 0:04:51.685 --> 0:04:55.445 of that year, so it would have been around March, 0:04:56.405 --> 0:04:58.245 after the first school holidays. 0:04:58.485 --> 0:05:02.405 And what was the nature of his arrival? I imagine 0:05:02.485 --> 0:05:04.005 if I go back to school, you know when a 0:05:04.045 --> 0:05:07.405 new teacher comes, he is a bit of amongst the students, 0:05:07.765 --> 0:05:11.605 amongst the girls. Was a cute looking guy. He was 0:05:11.645 --> 0:05:15.365 your pe teacher, I imagine there was that little friss on. 0:05:16.045 --> 0:05:16.685 Yes, so. 0:05:18.285 --> 0:05:22.205 There was a massive buzz about him arriving at the school. 0:05:22.325 --> 0:05:25.285 I remember, you know, one of my good friends had 0:05:25.365 --> 0:05:28.085 him as a teacher in the first term and she 0:05:28.365 --> 0:05:30.845 just talked about him all the time, about. 0:05:30.605 --> 0:05:31.485 How cool he was. 0:05:31.605 --> 0:05:36.285 And I actually hadn't really seen him when I was 0:05:36.325 --> 0:05:39.125 hearing a lot of, you know, the rumors about him. 0:05:39.165 --> 0:05:40.685 So I was a bit intrigued as to who this 0:05:40.765 --> 0:05:41.965 guy was. I suppose. 0:05:43.365 --> 0:05:45.645 I also had a friend that I danced with who 0:05:46.205 --> 0:05:49.525 she just graduated from school, so she wasn't at school 0:05:49.565 --> 0:05:51.685 at the time, but had run into him at a 0:05:51.965 --> 0:05:55.885 nightclub and she was talking about him at dancing right, 0:05:56.125 --> 0:05:58.485 you know, sort of saying you need to you need 0:05:58.525 --> 0:06:02.085 to see whether he remembers me, and you know, talking 0:06:02.245 --> 0:06:04.685 like that. So I'm like, who is this guy? And 0:06:04.765 --> 0:06:08.165 I do remember the first time that I really, I guess, 0:06:08.565 --> 0:06:10.765 had a conversation with him, and my friend that was 0:06:10.805 --> 0:06:13.605 in his class went to speak to him at lunchtime 0:06:13.645 --> 0:06:18.805 and I tagged along, and he was just very very charismatic. 0:06:19.005 --> 0:06:22.165 And what stuck with me, I think was the way 0:06:22.205 --> 0:06:26.245 that he communicated to us as students. It didn't it 0:06:26.325 --> 0:06:29.325 wasn't like all the other teachers. He made you feel 0:06:29.365 --> 0:06:32.365 like you were on his level in some way, like 0:06:32.445 --> 0:06:36.285 a mate, very jokey, in jovial and things like that. 0:06:36.405 --> 0:06:38.805 So I walked away going, oh, wow, he is really cool. 0:06:39.205 --> 0:06:41.405 I felt like he could be a friend, you know, 0:06:41.565 --> 0:06:44.245 rather than a teacher. He was very different, and he 0:06:44.365 --> 0:06:47.485 dressed well, he you know, he wore all the you know, 0:06:47.565 --> 0:06:51.325 luxury sports brands and things like that, had a nice 0:06:51.405 --> 0:06:55.525 tan and flashy smile. So he was very charismatic and 0:06:55.725 --> 0:06:58.285 I could see, you know, what all the hype was about, 0:06:58.325 --> 0:06:58.885 I suppose. 0:06:59.365 --> 0:07:02.525 So you had noticed him obviously, like there's one teacher 0:07:02.565 --> 0:07:06.805 and a lot of students. At what point did you 0:07:07.365 --> 0:07:10.645 realize that he had stuck to notice you? 0:07:11.525 --> 0:07:14.845 So when he became my actual teacher and the subject 0:07:14.965 --> 0:07:17.685 so in year ten, that year we got to choose 0:07:17.965 --> 0:07:20.605 each term a different sport to do, so I had 0:07:20.685 --> 0:07:23.125 chosen to do gymnastics, and that's what he was my 0:07:23.245 --> 0:07:28.045 teacher for. And it was pretty soon after we had 0:07:28.045 --> 0:07:32.645 a few classes, and I suppose he noticed my natural 0:07:32.685 --> 0:07:37.005 physical ability. I guess my background and dance probably helped 0:07:37.485 --> 0:07:40.565 with what I was doing gymnastics, And it was pretty 0:07:40.605 --> 0:07:44.005 quickly that he started asking me questions and saying, oh, 0:07:44.045 --> 0:07:47.085 you're very good at this. What's your background? And I 0:07:47.125 --> 0:07:49.925 said I was a dancer, and he really bonded with 0:07:49.965 --> 0:07:52.365 me over that and said how he has so many 0:07:52.485 --> 0:07:57.125 dancer friends. He loves dancing. And it was from that 0:07:57.285 --> 0:08:01.765 point that every lesson he would talk to me about 0:08:01.805 --> 0:08:05.565 that and talk about my physical capabilities and really compliment 0:08:06.045 --> 0:08:11.445 my strength and my ability that in that way, I suppose, and. 0:08:11.365 --> 0:08:14.085 So there was a you felt that there was bond 0:08:14.725 --> 0:08:21.325 growing between you, and also in those circumstances, I imagine 0:08:21.885 --> 0:08:25.925 to be the chosen one is quite an amazing feeling, 0:08:26.565 --> 0:08:30.005 and particularly at that age, and there's this amazing teacher 0:08:30.125 --> 0:08:32.925 and who has this intimacy with all these children, and 0:08:33.485 --> 0:08:40.205 who's very impressive, and he had noticed you. He singled 0:08:40.245 --> 0:08:44.445 you out, he bigged you up, he made you feel great. 0:08:45.605 --> 0:08:49.365 At what point did it start to transition into an 0:08:49.405 --> 0:08:53.365 even sort of greater intimacy and how does that happen? 0:08:53.405 --> 0:08:54.445 And where did that happen? 0:08:55.005 --> 0:08:58.845 So I would say, you know, over the coming weeks 0:08:59.125 --> 0:09:05.205 in those gymnastics lessons, his compliments and his conversations changed 0:09:05.245 --> 0:09:10.845 from being focused on my physical ability to more my 0:09:11.005 --> 0:09:14.325 actual physical looks and things like that. So it kind 0:09:14.325 --> 0:09:17.285 of shifted from being, oh, you know, you're so good 0:09:17.325 --> 0:09:21.845 at doing that trick to oh, you're so muscular, you 0:09:21.885 --> 0:09:25.565 have such a great, you know, muscly body, And then 0:09:25.605 --> 0:09:28.085 he would start commenting on actual parts of my body, 0:09:28.685 --> 0:09:33.205 which I do remember thinking we're crazy that a teacher 0:09:33.245 --> 0:09:35.965 would say that. But as you say, when you're that 0:09:36.125 --> 0:09:41.685 age and you're just dying to fit in and feel 0:09:41.765 --> 0:09:44.565 like you're a part of you know, being accepted and 0:09:44.645 --> 0:09:46.845 all that kind of stuff, it is so nice to hear. 0:09:47.725 --> 0:09:51.885 And so those conversations also sort of came with I 0:09:51.885 --> 0:09:54.765 suppose he started touching me more in class because obviously 0:09:54.765 --> 0:09:57.485 with gymnastics there is that physical element where you do 0:09:57.605 --> 0:10:00.765 need to spot people when they're doing tricks and things 0:10:00.845 --> 0:10:04.925 like that. Yes, but it I feel like the touching 0:10:05.245 --> 0:10:09.285 started becoming more obvious and touching me in places where 0:10:09.325 --> 0:10:12.605 where I didn't think he needed to. At first, I 0:10:12.685 --> 0:10:15.565 was probably trying to rationalize it, like, oh, it was 0:10:15.565 --> 0:10:18.365 a mistake, you know, it's probably hard to spot someone. 0:10:18.725 --> 0:10:21.925 He did it by accident, But it became more frequent 0:10:22.365 --> 0:10:25.405 and more obvious that he was doing it on purpose, 0:10:25.485 --> 0:10:28.005 so you know, brushing further down my back so that 0:10:28.045 --> 0:10:30.725 he would you know, graze lower areas and things like that. 0:10:31.085 --> 0:10:34.085 The hand lingering just longer than it needed to. 0:10:34.645 --> 0:10:38.245 Yeah, exactly. And so that sort of that went on 0:10:38.365 --> 0:10:42.165 for a number of weeks, I suppose, and then he 0:10:42.685 --> 0:10:46.445 sort of started finding ways to associate with me out 0:10:46.485 --> 0:10:50.285 of the class itself. So whether that was at lunchtime 0:10:50.485 --> 0:10:53.845 or you know, before school, he would sit me down 0:10:53.845 --> 0:10:56.725 and help me with assignments and things like that and 0:10:56.845 --> 0:10:59.405 have that one on one time outside of the classroom. 0:10:59.965 --> 0:11:03.605 And he'd always find like take me to a place 0:11:03.645 --> 0:11:06.365 that was somewhat isolated, Like I remember sitting in the 0:11:06.365 --> 0:11:09.845 grand stands of our gym Paul when no one was 0:11:09.885 --> 0:11:12.085 around at lunch, because I don't even think we were 0:11:12.125 --> 0:11:13.845 allowed in there, and we would sit in there and 0:11:13.885 --> 0:11:17.845 he'd go through assignments and you know, just really building 0:11:17.885 --> 0:11:22.765 that relationship, starting to normalize being close to me, and 0:11:22.805 --> 0:11:25.965 you know, the occasional touching of my knee while we're 0:11:25.965 --> 0:11:29.085 sitting down and things like that, and that just became 0:11:29.125 --> 0:11:32.125 more and more common that you then don't think of 0:11:32.205 --> 0:11:33.165 it as unusual. 0:11:33.605 --> 0:11:37.005 Had he been asking you at this point questions about 0:11:37.045 --> 0:11:40.165 your personal life and had you ever had a boyfriend, 0:11:40.365 --> 0:11:43.365 that sort of stuff, so getting to know you on 0:11:43.405 --> 0:11:44.525 that level as well. 0:11:45.285 --> 0:11:49.925 Yeah, he would ask me about my life in general, 0:11:50.005 --> 0:11:53.405 and we would have conversations. He knew that I came 0:11:53.445 --> 0:11:59.125 from a single mother family. I remember him actually talking 0:11:59.165 --> 0:12:02.805 about a relationship that he'd had with a student from 0:12:02.845 --> 0:12:06.125 the school he was at previously. Oh well, he used 0:12:06.165 --> 0:12:10.725 to draw parallels. Not a sexual relationship that he told me, 0:12:10.885 --> 0:12:13.805 but he would draw parallel saying, oh, you know, you 0:12:13.845 --> 0:12:16.765 remind me so much of this young girl that I 0:12:16.805 --> 0:12:18.965 taught at this school and she had a single mom 0:12:19.045 --> 0:12:21.045 and things like that, and I used to help them 0:12:21.045 --> 0:12:24.365 with things, and yeah, he was very much well aware 0:12:24.405 --> 0:12:28.765 of my home life and my situation. We did at 0:12:28.805 --> 0:12:32.285 some point start getting into conversations about my I guess, 0:12:32.285 --> 0:12:34.485 my history with boyfriends and things like that, but I 0:12:34.565 --> 0:12:37.685 don't can't quite remember when that happened, whether that was 0:12:38.125 --> 0:12:40.565 so early on or if it was once he started 0:12:40.925 --> 0:12:43.125 coming over to my home and things like that, which he. 0:12:43.125 --> 0:12:48.205 Did, because of course this is you're remembering things now 0:12:48.325 --> 0:12:50.965 and seeing them through a very different leans than you 0:12:51.005 --> 0:12:53.005 did at the time. And it was a long time ago. 0:12:53.325 --> 0:12:55.205 It was late nineties. 0:12:55.445 --> 0:12:57.405 Was this the year two thousand? Yeah? 0:12:57.485 --> 0:13:01.325 So two thousand, yeah, a long time And so at 0:13:01.325 --> 0:13:04.965 that point, had other people around you notice that there 0:13:05.005 --> 0:13:11.645 was this growing sense of bonding between you and mister Greeley. 0:13:12.365 --> 0:13:16.605 Yes, I had countless friends and students make comments to 0:13:16.645 --> 0:13:20.485 me about, you know, this relationship that I had with him, 0:13:20.565 --> 0:13:26.245 and there were definitely eyebrows raised about, you know, what's 0:13:26.285 --> 0:13:31.005 actually going on. And I think that contributed to me 0:13:31.125 --> 0:13:34.845 eventually being very isolated from my peers because the questioning 0:13:34.925 --> 0:13:40.125 got so relentless. I really had to back away because 0:13:40.165 --> 0:13:43.805 I just was so afraid of, you know, talking about anything. 0:13:44.925 --> 0:13:48.405 So I started to close off because I just didn't 0:13:48.445 --> 0:13:50.765 want to talk about it, and I ended up really 0:13:50.765 --> 0:13:53.245 not spending any time with people of my own age. 0:13:53.485 --> 0:13:55.565 And was it also because there was a sense that 0:13:55.605 --> 0:14:00.765 there was something that was growing between you and Paul 0:14:00.965 --> 0:14:04.405 that was kind of precious, So you were protecting that. 0:14:05.365 --> 0:14:09.565 Yeah, I mean even in those early days when oh, 0:14:09.605 --> 0:14:13.405 I suppose relationship only existed within the school environment, I 0:14:13.445 --> 0:14:16.525 remember him saying things to me like, even if I 0:14:16.525 --> 0:14:19.125 had a wife and a child, I would leave them 0:14:19.165 --> 0:14:22.605 for you, and it just talk about how fabulous I was, 0:14:22.645 --> 0:14:25.605 Like he really put me up on a pedestal. And 0:14:25.645 --> 0:14:28.445 it did become this secret that I felt like I 0:14:28.485 --> 0:14:33.205 had to protect because there's this man here who cares 0:14:33.245 --> 0:14:38.325 about me and really accepts me for who I am, 0:14:38.965 --> 0:14:42.485 knows all about me and what I'm interested in, and 0:14:42.605 --> 0:14:43.485 loves that about me. 0:14:44.325 --> 0:14:45.005 And so I. 0:14:44.965 --> 0:14:48.485 Did feel like I had to protect him and that secret. 0:14:48.565 --> 0:14:53.605 And sees the specialness in you. And at that age 0:14:54.085 --> 0:14:59.885 often you're racked by the desire that your belief that 0:14:59.965 --> 0:15:03.845 you might be special is a founded one, but you're 0:15:03.885 --> 0:15:07.325 also torn with the fact that maybe you're not. So 0:15:07.405 --> 0:15:12.405 someone who's making new feel like a queen is has 0:15:12.445 --> 0:15:14.605 the most powerful tool in their tool kit. 0:15:15.605 --> 0:15:20.485 Yeah, I know for myself, and I think most people 0:15:20.525 --> 0:15:24.285 going through those years of adolescence, you are still trying 0:15:24.325 --> 0:15:26.685 to work out who you are and where you fit 0:15:26.725 --> 0:15:30.445 in the bigger picture. I didn't always feel like I 0:15:30.525 --> 0:15:32.925 fit in well with my peers, just because I had 0:15:33.005 --> 0:15:36.805 such a I don't know, outgoing crazy personality. Sometimes I 0:15:36.805 --> 0:15:39.525 felt like I was a bit much for people, you know, 0:15:39.725 --> 0:15:43.085 I guess through my dancing I was always wanting to 0:15:43.205 --> 0:15:48.325 entertain people in some capacity and very confident, and yeah, 0:15:48.365 --> 0:15:50.805 sometimes I felt like it wasn't well received with my peers. 0:15:51.685 --> 0:15:55.605 And yeah, he was there, yeah, really making me feel special, 0:15:55.645 --> 0:15:59.405 like that was a great quality in me, and you 0:15:59.445 --> 0:16:03.685 know he adored that, And so it does. It makes 0:16:03.685 --> 0:16:06.285 you feel unique and special. 0:16:06.085 --> 0:16:09.565 Yes, And often I think at that age where sometimes 0:16:09.725 --> 0:16:12.805 maybe your girlfriends were a little bit in that physical 0:16:13.045 --> 0:16:16.765 you know, losing your downy feathers and getting the awkward 0:16:16.765 --> 0:16:20.085 adolescent feathers. Because you were a dancer, you would have 0:16:20.125 --> 0:16:24.525 had some physical assuredness that maybe they didn't have that 0:16:24.725 --> 0:16:28.045 also may have singled you out from them. 0:16:28.365 --> 0:16:32.205 Yeah, potentially, because it's funny, you know, I felt like 0:16:32.325 --> 0:16:33.965 that at the time, and then you go back to 0:16:34.045 --> 0:16:35.885 school reunions years later and people are. 0:16:35.845 --> 0:16:37.165 Like, oh, I really looked up to you. 0:16:37.205 --> 0:16:40.205 I thought you were fantastic, and you know, you were 0:16:40.205 --> 0:16:42.645 always so confident, and they do they compliment all those 0:16:42.685 --> 0:16:43.245 things that you. 0:16:43.325 --> 0:16:46.365 At the time felt so awkward and uncomfortable about. 0:16:47.125 --> 0:16:49.845 So, yeah, I do think potentially there was an element 0:16:49.885 --> 0:16:53.125 of that where, yeah, I probably did have that natural 0:16:53.125 --> 0:16:55.805 confidence that some other girls my age might not have had, 0:16:55.805 --> 0:16:58.685 and it did make me feel a bit isolated. 0:16:59.725 --> 0:17:03.565 And how did it transition then from these one on 0:17:03.565 --> 0:17:08.325 one sessions and him helping you, complimenting you. You said 0:17:08.325 --> 0:17:10.845 that he did any up visiting you at home. 0:17:11.205 --> 0:17:16.445 Yes, so just before that happened, he started he actually 0:17:16.565 --> 0:17:21.125 met my mom through some basketball games that I used 0:17:21.165 --> 0:17:24.725 to cheerlead for the local basketball team on the weekends, 0:17:25.725 --> 0:17:29.045 and he started going to those with some other teachers 0:17:29.045 --> 0:17:32.565 from school, and that's when he met my mom for 0:17:32.605 --> 0:17:38.965 the first time and developed some sort of friendly relationship 0:17:39.005 --> 0:17:41.925 with her there, so she knew who he was. They 0:17:41.965 --> 0:17:46.685 had had some conversation, nothing too deep, but he was charming, yes, yes, 0:17:46.845 --> 0:17:52.205 very charming. Even Mum remembers thinking what a lovely, lovely 0:17:52.285 --> 0:17:56.085 teacher he was, and very invested in me and my education. 0:17:56.485 --> 0:17:58.965 He through that he. 0:17:59.005 --> 0:18:01.845 Had organized, like for my mom to drive me to 0:18:01.925 --> 0:18:04.445 his house one weekend so he could help me with 0:18:04.485 --> 0:18:06.285 an assignment, and she sat in the car in his 0:18:06.365 --> 0:18:11.205 driveway while I went into his house, and then we 0:18:11.285 --> 0:18:13.605 ended up sitting outside and he spent all this time 0:18:13.805 --> 0:18:17.045 with me. Then he was he'd organized with mum for 0:18:17.085 --> 0:18:20.045 me to have triple jump training with him early morning 0:18:20.085 --> 0:18:24.325 before school, things like that, and so Mum was really 0:18:25.365 --> 0:18:28.365 under the understanding that he was a teacher that was 0:18:28.405 --> 0:18:31.485 just really invested in me and my education and thought 0:18:31.485 --> 0:18:36.485 it was fantastic. But it was all I supposed to 0:18:36.725 --> 0:18:39.285 build that relationship and get closer to us as a family. 0:18:40.285 --> 0:18:44.805 And my grandfather passed away in August of that year, 0:18:45.525 --> 0:18:50.565 which is my mom's father, and he sent Moum flowers 0:18:50.565 --> 0:18:55.005 and a card to the house, you know, obviously empathizing. 0:18:54.405 --> 0:18:57.365 With her, spoke about the fact. 0:18:57.125 --> 0:19:00.405 That he'd lost his mum not that long ago, and 0:19:00.485 --> 0:19:03.085 through that he ended up getting invited to our place 0:19:03.125 --> 0:19:06.165 for dinner one night, and that was kind of the 0:19:06.205 --> 0:19:09.245 start of that, and that became such a regular feature 0:19:09.405 --> 0:19:12.365 our life, was him turning up with a bottle of 0:19:12.405 --> 0:19:16.365 red wine and some card games and music, and we'd 0:19:16.405 --> 0:19:21.085 have dinner and have drinks and he teaches some card games. 0:19:21.125 --> 0:19:26.805 And I think he really took advantage of how vulnerable 0:19:27.245 --> 0:19:30.565 mum was at that time, losing her dad, she was grieving, 0:19:31.365 --> 0:19:34.845 and how vulnerable I was. And yeah, he just became 0:19:34.885 --> 0:19:37.925 a regular feature in our home from that point forward. 0:19:38.365 --> 0:19:41.685 At that point, where was your father in this? 0:19:42.765 --> 0:19:47.605 I had never known my father, so my parents broke 0:19:47.685 --> 0:19:51.445 up while my mom was pregnant, so I didn't know 0:19:51.605 --> 0:19:53.725 him at all. I didn't even know where he was, 0:19:54.205 --> 0:19:55.845 So yeah, he was completely out of the picture. 0:19:56.365 --> 0:19:59.885 I asked that because to then have this male figure 0:20:00.085 --> 0:20:04.085 who's turning up, yes, and takes a natural seat at 0:20:04.085 --> 0:20:07.285 the table. Even though it seemed so strange that it 0:20:07.325 --> 0:20:11.205 was a teacher, it assumed some sort of normalcy and 0:20:11.245 --> 0:20:13.605 filled a role that your mum would have been very 0:20:13.685 --> 0:20:14.605 appreciative of. 0:20:15.125 --> 0:20:15.405 Yes. 0:20:15.885 --> 0:20:19.605 Did she have any sense at the time that it 0:20:19.685 --> 0:20:20.765 was strange. 0:20:21.485 --> 0:20:25.565 No, I don't think she thought it was strange. She 0:20:26.085 --> 0:20:29.525 really appreciated his friendship, right. That's one thing that she 0:20:29.805 --> 0:20:32.765 reflects on is Mom didn't have a lot of friends 0:20:32.805 --> 0:20:36.445 at the time, and I think for her it was 0:20:36.485 --> 0:20:38.525 an adult that she could talk to and have adult 0:20:38.525 --> 0:20:42.285 conversations with and talk about her problems. And yeah, I 0:20:42.365 --> 0:20:46.045 think she had no clue that he was interested in 0:20:46.085 --> 0:20:51.125 me and genuinely thought that he was there as her friend, right, 0:20:51.885 --> 0:20:55.725 And you know, I support to her, and yeah, she 0:20:55.765 --> 0:20:59.925 looks back at that. I mean, obviously completely differently now, 0:21:00.005 --> 0:21:03.645 but at the time, yeah, she just really appreciated having 0:21:03.885 --> 0:21:06.125 another grown up to talk to. 0:21:06.685 --> 0:21:09.925 And then at what point did it change? So when 0:21:09.925 --> 0:21:12.205 he would say come to your house, did he ever 0:21:12.325 --> 0:21:15.125 seek you out or was he very careful not to 0:21:15.205 --> 0:21:17.965 do that and just really to build the bond with 0:21:18.005 --> 0:21:18.925 your mom? 0:21:19.245 --> 0:21:24.285 Initially it was, I suppose building that bond, But then 0:21:24.405 --> 0:21:29.605 it did change. He ended up getting suspended from school 0:21:30.085 --> 0:21:32.605 for a number of things. I'm not entirely sure of 0:21:32.645 --> 0:21:36.405 all the details, but yeah, he sort of vanished from 0:21:36.445 --> 0:21:40.805 school one day and I didn't know where he was. 0:21:40.925 --> 0:21:43.645 So this was probably prior to him coming over to 0:21:43.685 --> 0:21:49.645 our house regularly. And another teacher actually came up to 0:21:49.685 --> 0:21:51.685 me at a district sports carnival and handed me a 0:21:51.725 --> 0:21:55.925 piece of paper and said, oh, really wants you to 0:21:55.925 --> 0:21:57.765 come to the beach on the weekend. Here's his number, 0:21:58.445 --> 0:22:04.525 which I did, and that's when he really started sexualizing things. 0:22:04.285 --> 0:22:05.205 Like in the water. 0:22:06.325 --> 0:22:10.165 It became very evident that it wasn't my friendship, it 0:22:10.325 --> 0:22:14.005 was actual romantic interest there. And he ended up kissing 0:22:14.005 --> 0:22:17.605 me on the beach that day. And then because he 0:22:17.645 --> 0:22:20.445 was suspended from school, I was sick one day and 0:22:20.525 --> 0:22:23.325 I sent him a stupid message on my mobile phone, 0:22:23.605 --> 0:22:28.325 some immature text message, and he said, are you not 0:22:28.405 --> 0:22:30.685 at school? And I said no, and he said, oh, 0:22:30.725 --> 0:22:34.525 come over and bring your chicken soup. And that was 0:22:35.045 --> 0:22:37.845 that was when it all changed. So we had obviously 0:22:37.885 --> 0:22:41.445 we were home alone together that day and that's when 0:22:41.485 --> 0:22:44.845 things escalated. And then those those times at home when 0:22:44.885 --> 0:22:47.925 he'd come over when mom was there, he would linger 0:22:48.285 --> 0:22:50.565 after she'd go to bed because Mum was still working 0:22:50.565 --> 0:22:52.885 and had to get up early, and she'd go to 0:22:52.925 --> 0:22:56.205 bed and excuse herself and he would hang around then. 0:22:56.765 --> 0:22:59.605 And yeah, that's that was kind of how that transitioned. 0:22:59.605 --> 0:23:00.125 I suppose. 0:23:00.565 --> 0:23:03.845 So then you what did you think you were to 0:23:03.965 --> 0:23:05.725 him and what did you think the nature of the 0:23:05.765 --> 0:23:09.285 relationship was. So obviously this was you were having seen 0:23:09.325 --> 0:23:15.165 sexual encounters. Now, was it your first sexual experience with him. 0:23:15.405 --> 0:23:16.125 To that level? 0:23:16.205 --> 0:23:20.165 Yes, definitely. I'd had a couple of short term boyfriends, 0:23:20.445 --> 0:23:24.005 as you do at that age, that didn't company went 0:23:24.085 --> 0:23:27.685 near you know that that level. My memories of that 0:23:27.805 --> 0:23:31.005 time is just how hard and fast that came on 0:23:31.085 --> 0:23:35.885 for me. And I think that that's the damaging thing 0:23:35.925 --> 0:23:39.085 about that is, you know, when you're with people your 0:23:39.085 --> 0:23:42.285 own age and you're experiencing all those new things together, 0:23:43.525 --> 0:23:48.005 it's everybody's first, so you know, you're really only doing 0:23:48.045 --> 0:23:52.205 things that you're comfortable with, and it's all very much experimentation. 0:23:53.325 --> 0:23:57.405 But when you're with a man, it just goes like 0:23:57.525 --> 0:24:00.885 one hundred percent straight away. And a lot of the 0:24:00.885 --> 0:24:04.725 things that I was being made to do or experience, 0:24:05.405 --> 0:24:08.325 I just I was in shock. I remember the first 0:24:08.365 --> 0:24:13.085 time he kissed me, he came up behind me. I froze. 0:24:13.165 --> 0:24:16.765 I just went into complete dissociation. I was unresponsive. I 0:24:16.885 --> 0:24:21.245 just didn't move and like looking back, it was just 0:24:21.285 --> 0:24:25.205 a complete fear response, you know, and it just baffles 0:24:25.245 --> 0:24:29.365 me that he would continue when someone is so unresponsive, 0:24:29.525 --> 0:24:33.605 you know, like, yeah, a was scary. 0:24:34.045 --> 0:24:38.365 At the time. How did he address your non responsiveness? 0:24:39.205 --> 0:24:41.925 Did he think that you were shy or you were 0:24:43.085 --> 0:24:46.805 reticent or being coquettish or playing hard to get or 0:24:47.125 --> 0:24:48.605 did he not really focus on that? 0:24:48.845 --> 0:24:51.725 He just ignored it. And that's what I find someone settling. 0:24:51.765 --> 0:24:53.965 It's you know, in this day and age when we 0:24:53.965 --> 0:24:57.325 talk about consent and what consent looks like, yes, and 0:24:57.365 --> 0:24:59.685 someone has to be an active participant in that, and 0:24:59.765 --> 0:25:00.765 I was clearly not. 0:25:01.165 --> 0:25:02.565 I didn't move I just. 0:25:03.805 --> 0:25:07.565 He he almost had to move me, like I was 0:25:07.565 --> 0:25:11.605 some sort of you know, homely dummy. And he just 0:25:11.645 --> 0:25:17.605 didn't even acknowledge my responses or talk about anything. Never 0:25:18.085 --> 0:25:21.005 never had a conversation about my feelings and any of this, 0:25:21.125 --> 0:25:23.885 and what I was comfortable with. It was just he 0:25:23.925 --> 0:25:27.165 wanted what he wanted, and you know, I just felt 0:25:27.165 --> 0:25:28.085 so objectified. 0:25:28.525 --> 0:25:31.005 So you were at this stage, like fifteen, had you 0:25:31.045 --> 0:25:32.285 turned fifteen? Yes? 0:25:32.405 --> 0:25:33.365 I had turned fifteen. 0:25:33.645 --> 0:25:34.885 How old was he? 0:25:34.885 --> 0:25:36.485 He was thirty one? 0:25:36.805 --> 0:25:37.125 Right? 0:25:38.205 --> 0:25:38.965 And then so. 0:25:40.445 --> 0:25:45.245 You're now in a relationship with him. You go back 0:25:45.285 --> 0:25:49.005 to school, I mean he's back at school after the suspension, 0:25:49.045 --> 0:25:50.325 the mystery suspension. 0:25:50.725 --> 0:25:53.085 Yeah, he does eventually come back to school at some 0:25:53.205 --> 0:25:54.925 point at the end of that year. 0:25:55.245 --> 0:25:56.845 And then how does that work? 0:25:57.765 --> 0:26:00.685 Yeah, it was interesting. He actually he came up with 0:26:00.725 --> 0:26:04.085 a little code like a physical code that he would 0:26:04.125 --> 0:26:07.445 do to show that he was thinking of me and 0:26:07.485 --> 0:26:11.285 wish that he could express his love properly. So he 0:26:11.365 --> 0:26:14.685 used to he'd say, if he ever scratched his ear, right, 0:26:15.005 --> 0:26:18.205 that was what he was thinking about. So, yeah, he'd 0:26:19.205 --> 0:26:21.445 walk through the school at lunchtime. He'd always make sure 0:26:21.445 --> 0:26:24.645 he walked past where my friend group sad, and you know, 0:26:24.685 --> 0:26:26.845 he'd scratch his ear and you know, we'd have this 0:26:26.925 --> 0:26:29.525 little secret that I'd have a little giggle about and 0:26:29.765 --> 0:26:35.685 feel special and whatnot. But I do remember he was 0:26:35.765 --> 0:26:39.685 pretty clear that we had to be careful from that 0:26:39.765 --> 0:26:43.725 point forward, like especially him coming back after being suspended. 0:26:44.565 --> 0:26:46.525 He was very much in my ear all the time 0:26:46.565 --> 0:26:50.525 about it being a secret and that we'd be in trouble, 0:26:51.245 --> 0:26:54.845 and especially him, and you know, we wouldn't be able 0:26:54.845 --> 0:26:56.325 to see each other again and he wouldn't be able 0:26:56.325 --> 0:26:59.205 to do all these fun things with me and if 0:26:59.245 --> 0:27:04.045 anyone found out. So he really sort of made sure 0:27:04.125 --> 0:27:07.325 that I wasn't going to talk to anyone and distance 0:27:07.445 --> 0:27:08.645 myself from him at school. 0:27:09.445 --> 0:27:14.205 Of this is well we now know is textbook, isn't it. 0:27:15.365 --> 0:27:16.045 It is all of. 0:27:16.005 --> 0:27:20.045 It, it is And you know, when I did start 0:27:20.085 --> 0:27:24.405 reading into grooming and things like that. I was kind 0:27:24.405 --> 0:27:27.605 of gobsmacked initially. I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is 0:27:28.205 --> 0:27:29.725 exactly how it played out for me. 0:27:30.365 --> 0:27:33.805 Yeah, it's the playbook, But what is not in the 0:27:33.845 --> 0:27:42.045 playbook is that this relationship then survived for your remaining 0:27:42.085 --> 0:27:45.965 two years at school, was still a secret all that 0:27:46.125 --> 0:27:53.845 time from your friends, other teachers, your mum who knew. 0:27:55.085 --> 0:28:00.045 So I eventually confessed to my best friend Amanda that 0:28:01.565 --> 0:28:05.325 things had escalated and things were happening between us. 0:28:05.485 --> 0:28:07.765 She was like she knew. 0:28:07.885 --> 0:28:10.125 She was always at me to the point where she 0:28:10.205 --> 0:28:12.845 was threatening our friendship if I didn't if I didn't 0:28:12.845 --> 0:28:16.685 come clean, and obviously you know I didn't. I didn't 0:28:16.685 --> 0:28:19.325 want to lie to her anymore. And it was during 0:28:19.365 --> 0:28:22.325 the Christmas holidays, like between two thousand and two thousand 0:28:22.325 --> 0:28:25.405 and one. She'd come back from a trip to see 0:28:25.445 --> 0:28:28.405 her dad and Sydney, and we were just talking about 0:28:28.485 --> 0:28:32.005 things that we're done with our boyfriend, like with her boyfriend, 0:28:32.045 --> 0:28:35.765 and I ended up coming clean and telling her that, 0:28:36.005 --> 0:28:38.485 you know, I had done stuff, but I swore her 0:28:38.525 --> 0:28:41.685 to secrecy, and we came up with this really silly 0:28:41.725 --> 0:28:44.885 code of we call if ever we wrote about him 0:28:44.885 --> 0:28:47.565 in a letter. We called him Subway for some reason. 0:28:47.645 --> 0:28:50.325 I don't even know how that started. So from that 0:28:50.405 --> 0:28:54.685 point forward I did confide in her a lot about things, 0:28:54.965 --> 0:28:56.765 and it's funny now to look back at our letters 0:28:56.765 --> 0:28:59.205 and see that immaturity. 0:28:59.325 --> 0:28:59.965 I suppose. 0:29:00.725 --> 0:29:07.805 I also confided in Mom after things had escalated. I 0:29:07.845 --> 0:29:09.325 said to her, what had happened? 0:29:09.965 --> 0:29:12.085 How long after did you tell your mom? 0:29:12.525 --> 0:29:15.245 It was before the Christmas holidays of that year, so 0:29:15.285 --> 0:29:17.085 it was the year that things had started. 0:29:17.805 --> 0:29:18.005 Yeah. 0:29:18.045 --> 0:29:20.325 I ended up confiding in her and said, you know, 0:29:20.405 --> 0:29:23.285 please don't tell anyone. He'll get in trouble and he's 0:29:23.285 --> 0:29:27.205 really special to me, you know, don't say anything. And 0:29:27.805 --> 0:29:29.565 I think Mum was in a lot of shock. I 0:29:29.605 --> 0:29:33.085 don't even remember having much of a conversation with her 0:29:33.125 --> 0:29:36.765 about it. It just kind of, I don't know, it 0:29:37.245 --> 0:29:39.525 got swept under the rug in a sense, I suppose. 0:29:40.325 --> 0:29:44.205 And then he ended up actually telling my mum over 0:29:44.245 --> 0:29:47.045 those Christmas holidays himself. He brought me out to the 0:29:47.125 --> 0:29:50.485 kitchen and said I'm in love with your daughter. I 0:29:50.525 --> 0:29:52.805 really care about her, and then kissed me on the 0:29:52.845 --> 0:29:55.245 lips in front of her. And again Mum was just 0:29:55.725 --> 0:29:57.685 you could tell she didn't know what to say. But 0:29:57.805 --> 0:30:02.565 I think because of that relationship that he'd built up 0:30:02.965 --> 0:30:06.925 with Arson, even my grandma, he ended up going over 0:30:06.965 --> 0:30:11.285 to my grandma's house to help with some renovation type 0:30:11.325 --> 0:30:15.005 things because after my grandfather had died, So he really 0:30:15.045 --> 0:30:19.485 tried hard, you know, infiltrating my whole family, and I 0:30:19.525 --> 0:30:22.685 think by that point when he spoke to Mum about it, 0:30:22.765 --> 0:30:26.125 he was just part of the family already, And in hindsight, 0:30:26.205 --> 0:30:30.325 she regrets everything, you know, she wishes she could go 0:30:30.405 --> 0:30:33.605 back in time and change how she responded to things. 0:30:33.645 --> 0:30:39.605 But you know, Mum was very vulnerable and very manipulated 0:30:39.645 --> 0:30:42.045 through that process as well, so I think she was 0:30:42.125 --> 0:30:45.645 very confused and did what she thought was best at 0:30:45.645 --> 0:30:46.125 that time. 0:30:46.565 --> 0:30:51.405 Well, vulnerability, Vulnerability is the key, isn't it. And you 0:30:51.445 --> 0:30:57.325 were all vulnerable, your grandmother, you, your mom, Yes, and 0:30:57.365 --> 0:31:01.365 that of course is we know, that's that's what predators 0:31:01.485 --> 0:31:07.085 use to pray upon people, is vulnerability. But then to 0:31:07.245 --> 0:31:09.845 your mind, well not to your mind, you were in 0:31:09.885 --> 0:31:12.805 a relationship with him, How did that continue? Did he 0:31:12.965 --> 0:31:15.965 stay at the school as you went through do you 0:31:16.005 --> 0:31:17.445 went through year eleven and twelve? 0:31:17.725 --> 0:31:22.285 Yeah, so he left the school early the next year. 0:31:22.405 --> 0:31:24.805 It wasn't like he was there for the start of 0:31:24.845 --> 0:31:27.845 grade eleven, but at some point he had left and 0:31:27.885 --> 0:31:31.605 got transferred to a school in Brisbane. He obviously remained 0:31:31.645 --> 0:31:35.685 in regular contact with me, and there were times when 0:31:35.725 --> 0:31:37.165 he would come back and visit. 0:31:37.565 --> 0:31:40.485 Because so Brisbane's a couple of hours away from Harvey Bay. 0:31:40.725 --> 0:31:43.765 Yeah, yeah, it's about three to four hour drive right 0:31:43.845 --> 0:31:47.645 between the two places. He started getting in my ear 0:31:47.725 --> 0:31:51.125 about moving to Brisbane. That was always his big thing was, 0:31:51.965 --> 0:31:54.285 you know, once we moved to Brisbane, then we can 0:31:54.325 --> 0:31:55.245 be a regular couple. 0:31:55.325 --> 0:31:56.445 No one will know us. 0:31:57.045 --> 0:32:00.965 He sort of planted that sea quite early on about 0:32:01.005 --> 0:32:03.965 that being the best thing for us and then the 0:32:04.005 --> 0:32:08.165 secret could be lifted. He even enticed me to go 0:32:08.605 --> 0:32:12.845 by saying that he would get me into the qdoc 0:32:13.285 --> 0:32:16.365 program at Kelvin Grove State High School, which is at 0:32:16.405 --> 0:32:19.445 the time it was quite a reputable dance full time program. 0:32:20.005 --> 0:32:22.485 He said that he was really close with the dance 0:32:22.525 --> 0:32:24.805 teachers there and he'd get me in and it was 0:32:24.845 --> 0:32:28.485 a great opportunity for my dancing. So that obviously was 0:32:28.485 --> 0:32:32.605 so exciting to me. And it was three quarters of 0:32:32.645 --> 0:32:36.685 the way through grade eleven, I decided to leave and 0:32:36.805 --> 0:32:40.205 move and it was very last minute. I had people that, 0:32:40.805 --> 0:32:43.285 like my dance teacher, didn't even know until I'd gone. 0:32:45.005 --> 0:32:48.125 And I lived with my uncle and nannie in Brisbane 0:32:48.165 --> 0:32:51.605 for about six months while Mom stayed in Harvey Bay 0:32:51.645 --> 0:32:54.885 to sell the house and you know, sort out all 0:32:54.925 --> 0:32:59.485 those loose ends. And turns out he never did actually 0:32:59.525 --> 0:33:01.125 try and get me into that school at all, Like 0:33:01.205 --> 0:33:04.445 it was just it was just all talked to to 0:33:04.525 --> 0:33:07.805 get me to move. And yeah, it wasn't even once 0:33:07.845 --> 0:33:10.245 I'd moved there, there was no more conversation about that. 0:33:10.365 --> 0:33:12.405 And I just went to a normal, regular high school 0:33:12.445 --> 0:33:14.565 and finished year twelve there. 0:33:16.165 --> 0:33:20.045 Stay with us. Sarah reflects on her early experiences and 0:33:20.085 --> 0:33:22.685 the long road that led her to question everything she 0:33:22.845 --> 0:33:31.005 thought she knew about trust and love. So you've now moved, 0:33:31.765 --> 0:33:36.485 so you've left Amanda and whatever friendship group you had. 0:33:36.845 --> 0:33:43.005 Your mum's now relocated, so you're all the more reliant 0:33:43.125 --> 0:33:49.045 on him for all your kind of emotional needs. 0:33:49.525 --> 0:33:54.285 Yeah, he once I moved to Brisbane, he was spending 0:33:54.485 --> 0:34:00.285 all of his time with me. I remember being difficult 0:34:00.365 --> 0:34:04.965 to make new friendships at my new school because I'd 0:34:05.005 --> 0:34:07.205 always have to come up with reasons why I couldn't 0:34:07.245 --> 0:34:09.605 hang out with them or go to the parties things 0:34:09.645 --> 0:34:12.645 like that, because you know, he didn't like me going 0:34:12.685 --> 0:34:15.245 to things like parties and that he used to get 0:34:15.245 --> 0:34:15.925 a little bit. 0:34:17.445 --> 0:34:17.845 Jealous. 0:34:17.885 --> 0:34:20.325 I suppose he started getting in my ear around that 0:34:20.365 --> 0:34:23.765 time about how I'm eventually going to leave him because 0:34:24.125 --> 0:34:27.045 I'll realize he's too old and things like that, and 0:34:27.085 --> 0:34:30.085 started making me feel really guilty about wanting to hang 0:34:30.125 --> 0:34:32.805 out with people my own age. So I did really struggle. 0:34:32.885 --> 0:34:35.765 I supposed to make strong friendships at my new school, 0:34:35.805 --> 0:34:37.885 so I did rely on him a lot and was 0:34:37.925 --> 0:34:39.965 spending all of my time with him. 0:34:40.605 --> 0:34:45.485 You know how in schools particularly and teenagers have the 0:34:45.525 --> 0:34:50.765 most like effective grapevine of anybody. Were there any rumors 0:34:50.765 --> 0:34:53.085 at your new school or was anyone kind of looking 0:34:53.125 --> 0:34:56.005 as scance or these stories like you know, Sarah has 0:34:56.045 --> 0:34:57.445 got a much older boyfriend. 0:34:58.205 --> 0:35:00.645 There weren't really any rumors because I was pretty good 0:35:00.645 --> 0:35:04.805 at not really talking about that side of things, and 0:35:04.845 --> 0:35:07.845 I think because I was a new student, it was 0:35:08.045 --> 0:35:10.645 easier to be more secret about that than the people 0:35:10.685 --> 0:35:14.245 that i'd none for most of my life, so you know, 0:35:14.525 --> 0:35:16.645 they just accepted I suppose that I was a little 0:35:16.645 --> 0:35:20.525 bit standoffish and not as sociable as some of the 0:35:20.565 --> 0:35:24.445 other kids. But I remember actually coming clean to the 0:35:24.445 --> 0:35:27.125 friend group that I did have it at my new school, 0:35:27.485 --> 0:35:30.245 and it must have been just prior to my eighteenth birthday. 0:35:30.965 --> 0:35:35.245 And yeah, there was a lot of shock, that's for sure, 0:35:35.485 --> 0:35:39.525 and I don't think they really knew how to take it, 0:35:39.685 --> 0:35:43.925 but it was It wasn't well received, and I remember 0:35:44.165 --> 0:35:46.325 my male group of friends that I had at school, 0:35:47.165 --> 0:35:50.525 they reacted really badly. They got really angry about it 0:35:50.685 --> 0:35:53.885 and was sort of telling me that it's so wrong 0:35:53.925 --> 0:35:56.885 and disgusting and he shouldn't be doing like They were 0:35:56.885 --> 0:35:59.205 really protective and got quite mad about it. 0:35:59.325 --> 0:36:02.845 Oh that's interesting, isn't it. So they were sort of 0:36:02.925 --> 0:36:07.925 kind of more territorial about you and what was happening 0:36:07.965 --> 0:36:11.165 to you than your girlfriends at that time. 0:36:11.645 --> 0:36:14.205 Yeah, I feel it was more of the boys that 0:36:14.645 --> 0:36:17.445 got up on edge about it, and it was kind 0:36:17.445 --> 0:36:23.405 of that was the catalyst for Paul eventually saying to me, Oh, 0:36:23.445 --> 0:36:26.565 I think we should we should cool this off because 0:36:27.365 --> 0:36:30.125 you know, I'm clearly too old. Few people are never 0:36:30.165 --> 0:36:33.085 going to accept us. Look at the way your friends reacted, 0:36:33.965 --> 0:36:36.485 But yeah, it is interesting that it sort of was 0:36:36.885 --> 0:36:40.285 the males around me at that time that had a 0:36:40.285 --> 0:36:43.165 problem with it. But yeah, my girlfriends just they were 0:36:43.165 --> 0:36:46.605 shocked and they did think it was weird, yes, but 0:36:46.885 --> 0:36:49.965 they didn't react in the same sort of angry way, 0:36:50.005 --> 0:36:50.565 I suppose. 0:36:51.085 --> 0:36:55.725 So then Paul suggested this period of calling off, which 0:36:55.765 --> 0:36:58.325 would have been I imagine devastating for you. 0:36:58.965 --> 0:37:03.405 It was because for me, I thought, you know, we've 0:37:03.445 --> 0:37:06.245 gotten through all this adversity of all these years where 0:37:06.285 --> 0:37:09.125 it had to be this giant secret, and he'd convinced 0:37:09.125 --> 0:37:11.165 me to move to a whole nother town and separate 0:37:11.205 --> 0:37:13.885 myself from everyone, and for this premise that we could 0:37:13.965 --> 0:37:19.245 finally be in the open together openly, and then he's 0:37:19.325 --> 0:37:22.445 cooling it off, and I felt like the rug had 0:37:22.445 --> 0:37:25.685 been completely pulled from underneath me. It was one of 0:37:25.725 --> 0:37:28.405 the most devastating times in my life. I was so 0:37:28.525 --> 0:37:33.845 confused because he always had said, you know, you're my soulmate, 0:37:33.965 --> 0:37:36.725 you are my you know you are the one, and 0:37:36.765 --> 0:37:38.805 that all just came crashing down in an instant. 0:37:39.565 --> 0:37:42.045 It was. It was really difficult, but. 0:37:42.005 --> 0:37:47.405 You got through that period. What happened that you went 0:37:47.605 --> 0:37:52.845 from him saying that things needed to cool down to 0:37:53.045 --> 0:37:56.325 you two actually getting married. 0:37:57.405 --> 0:38:01.445 So even though he had I suppose, like broke it 0:38:01.485 --> 0:38:05.845 off with me officially, he remained in touch with me 0:38:06.085 --> 0:38:09.485 and would regularly still come over, and you know, we 0:38:09.605 --> 0:38:13.645 maintained a sexual relationship even though we had broken up. 0:38:14.445 --> 0:38:18.125 But again, it sort of became the secret because he 0:38:18.925 --> 0:38:23.165 eventually got engaged. He was dating a student teacher from 0:38:23.205 --> 0:38:26.685 his current school, and they ended up getting engaged, but 0:38:26.805 --> 0:38:32.005 he was still seeing me throughout that whole theme, but saying, 0:38:32.045 --> 0:38:35.725 you know, I just she's nothing like you. Every time 0:38:35.765 --> 0:38:38.285 I'm with her, I just wish I was with you, 0:38:38.285 --> 0:38:41.485 you know, saying all this nonsense, I suppose to keep 0:38:41.525 --> 0:38:43.725 me feeding me the bread crumbs. 0:38:43.925 --> 0:38:45.245 I guess. Yeah. 0:38:45.285 --> 0:38:47.765 So I was never really out of the picture and 0:38:47.885 --> 0:38:52.565 away from him and away from his manipulation. So one 0:38:52.685 --> 0:38:56.365 day I remember getting a phone call from him while 0:38:56.365 --> 0:38:59.765 I was at work, and it said that he needed 0:38:59.805 --> 0:39:03.525 to meet up with me because he was leaving his fiance. 0:39:04.845 --> 0:39:10.405 And I actually a part of me was thinking, don't go, 0:39:10.605 --> 0:39:13.685 don't go. I think I knew a little bit that 0:39:13.725 --> 0:39:17.445 things were wrong, but he gave me this big, sob 0:39:17.525 --> 0:39:21.645 story on the phone about you know, being suicidal and whatnot. 0:39:21.725 --> 0:39:26.165 And I met him at the Qui two Sports stadium. 0:39:26.325 --> 0:39:30.045 He was at some school sports event, and he came 0:39:30.085 --> 0:39:33.045 and sat in my car and told me in detail 0:39:33.245 --> 0:39:36.685 about how he had tried to commit suicide and that 0:39:37.245 --> 0:39:41.925 his relationship with her was really abusive and that he 0:39:42.165 --> 0:39:44.725 just really missed me this whole time and he just 0:39:44.765 --> 0:39:47.765 wanted to be with me again. And I just remember 0:39:47.885 --> 0:39:50.605 it was horrible because he explained in great detail about 0:39:50.605 --> 0:39:54.165 what it was like to actually try and commit suicide, 0:39:54.365 --> 0:39:58.085 like how it felt, and that's obviously really devastating to 0:39:58.125 --> 0:40:02.725 hear about anybody, So that really affected me. And he 0:40:02.765 --> 0:40:04.805 asked whether he could come back to my house that 0:40:04.925 --> 0:40:08.645 day after he had finished, and I said sure and 0:40:08.725 --> 0:40:12.485 gave him my new address and he came over and 0:40:12.805 --> 0:40:15.525 before I knew it, he'd sort of his way into 0:40:16.125 --> 0:40:19.885 the house. I was living with my mum. We just 0:40:19.925 --> 0:40:25.165 had a rental, and I remember actually he just started 0:40:25.445 --> 0:40:28.925 moving his stuff into our house. Mom came home from 0:40:28.965 --> 0:40:32.365 work one day and was just completely shocked because she's like, 0:40:32.405 --> 0:40:34.365 what is all this stuff? And I said, oh, Paul's 0:40:34.365 --> 0:40:37.365 moving in. He's he's had a hard time with you know, 0:40:37.405 --> 0:40:40.525 he's broken it off, and you know, he wants to 0:40:40.525 --> 0:40:42.805 just stay here until he gets on his feet, and 0:40:43.085 --> 0:40:46.845 he just didn't leave from that point. And then I, yeah, 0:40:46.845 --> 0:40:49.845 we ended up getting pregnant, so that was kind of 0:40:49.925 --> 0:40:51.685 what led to that marriage. 0:40:52.365 --> 0:40:55.445 So how old are you now at this point? 0:40:55.805 --> 0:41:00.125 Yeah, I was twenty, so I just turned twenty that year, and. 0:40:59.645 --> 0:41:04.045 So then the natural progression was seen to be that 0:41:04.125 --> 0:41:06.445 you would get married. Whose idea was. 0:41:06.365 --> 0:41:11.445 That, Yeah, it was his. But at the same time 0:41:12.125 --> 0:41:14.565 he was trying to play me off against all these 0:41:14.565 --> 0:41:18.405 other women that he had in his life. It was 0:41:18.445 --> 0:41:24.725 really confusing. He told me he had actual conversations with 0:41:24.765 --> 0:41:27.845 me where he'd be like, I don't know what to do, 0:41:27.925 --> 0:41:30.965 whether to be with you, whether to be with this person, 0:41:32.085 --> 0:41:34.325 or whether to be with this other person. You know, 0:41:34.405 --> 0:41:37.325 an idle situation. I'd like to be with you, but 0:41:38.205 --> 0:41:42.045 be technically married. It was just in hindsight, as a 0:41:42.085 --> 0:41:45.925 grown woman, I'd look at that and just it's red 0:41:45.965 --> 0:41:50.525 flags everywhere. Sure, but I felt so desperate to prove myself. 0:41:50.685 --> 0:41:55.125 But here's the thing, Sarah, because you, in many ways, 0:41:55.285 --> 0:41:57.845 I imagine, though you may have had the chron and 0:41:57.925 --> 0:42:01.885 logical years, you weren't a grown woman, because a lot 0:42:01.925 --> 0:42:05.565 of your relationship with him must have been cemented as 0:42:05.605 --> 0:42:09.325 a fourteen year old. Yes, and because he's done that 0:42:09.565 --> 0:42:13.525 thing of pulling away, so you know how it is 0:42:13.565 --> 0:42:15.805 to be without him when you're so reliant on him. 0:42:16.085 --> 0:42:18.845 Then when he comes back, you're like, I've got the prize, 0:42:19.005 --> 0:42:21.205 I've got a chance of getting the golden ring. 0:42:21.485 --> 0:42:25.125 Yeah, it was very much like that. And yeah, it's 0:42:25.125 --> 0:42:28.685 interesting that you highlight about sort of being stuck in 0:42:28.725 --> 0:42:34.525 that real adolescent mindset, and I feel like that was 0:42:34.565 --> 0:42:36.765 exactly how it played out for our whole marriage. I 0:42:36.845 --> 0:42:41.045 never felt like I really grew into a woman, or 0:42:41.045 --> 0:42:45.085 when I tried to, that's when the big problems started. 0:42:45.725 --> 0:42:49.405 You know, all the crucks in our relationship were forming because. 0:42:49.325 --> 0:42:51.725 When you would try to assert yourself. 0:42:52.045 --> 0:42:54.605 Yeah, I guess I started, you know, after i'd had 0:42:54.725 --> 0:42:56.965 we had two children, and I was starting to get 0:42:57.005 --> 0:43:02.325 into my mid twenties. I suppose I started talking to 0:43:02.605 --> 0:43:05.325 other women. I had started making other mom friends. I 0:43:05.365 --> 0:43:08.885 suppose because when I was young, none of my friends 0:43:09.045 --> 0:43:11.765 were in marriages with children that you know, I was 0:43:11.845 --> 0:43:15.165 sort of the only one. I didn't have any anyone 0:43:15.245 --> 0:43:20.205 to talk to about what marriage is like. And it 0:43:20.205 --> 0:43:22.405 wasn't until I started making other mum friends who were 0:43:23.085 --> 0:43:25.565 fair bit older than me that I started to realize 0:43:25.605 --> 0:43:30.325 that things probably won't write and I wasn't in a 0:43:30.365 --> 0:43:34.765 normal marriage, and so I did start to grow up 0:43:34.805 --> 0:43:36.605 a little bit and try and have my own voice. 0:43:36.965 --> 0:43:41.245 And yeah, the cracks really started forming them because that 0:43:41.325 --> 0:43:43.725 wasn't well received. I used to get comments all the 0:43:43.765 --> 0:43:48.845 time that I changed and that he wishes that he 0:43:48.925 --> 0:43:51.525 really misses the young girl that would sit like a 0:43:51.565 --> 0:43:53.725 puppy at the front door waiting for him to get home. 0:43:55.005 --> 0:43:58.325 And I just thought, why would you actually want that, Like, 0:43:59.805 --> 0:44:01.125 don't you want a woman to be with? 0:44:02.605 --> 0:44:07.485 When you would tell your new mum friends your origin story, 0:44:08.445 --> 0:44:11.685 did you edit it or what did you share with them? 0:44:12.205 --> 0:44:16.005 Yeah? I initially when I would tell people how we met, 0:44:16.285 --> 0:44:18.805 i'd make up some story like we met at university 0:44:18.965 --> 0:44:23.005 or something that you know, I was young, but not 0:44:23.045 --> 0:44:25.365 as young as I was. I suppose I still really 0:44:25.405 --> 0:44:29.165 protected that secret of his. You know, even when I 0:44:29.205 --> 0:44:32.085 started eventually going to counseling, I wasn't honest with my 0:44:32.205 --> 0:44:35.405 psychologist at that time. It was just really drilled into 0:44:35.445 --> 0:44:39.605 me about never telling anyone even at my wedding, there 0:44:39.605 --> 0:44:41.605 were strict instructions that no one was to talk about 0:44:41.645 --> 0:44:42.205 how we met. 0:44:42.525 --> 0:44:46.125 Well, who was at your wedding, obviously, were there were 0:44:46.125 --> 0:44:47.405 no friends from your past. 0:44:47.805 --> 0:44:49.525 I had a couple of friends from it, like I 0:44:49.565 --> 0:44:51.845 have my best friend Amanda there right, And then I 0:44:51.885 --> 0:44:54.965 had another friend of mine, the one that actually it 0:44:55.005 --> 0:44:58.365 first introduced me to him. Oh, he always really liked her, 0:44:58.525 --> 0:45:01.645 so he was actually his suggestion to invite her. They 0:45:01.685 --> 0:45:05.285 were probably the only friends of mine that were there 0:45:05.565 --> 0:45:08.565 from back in the Harvey Bay days. All my other 0:45:08.605 --> 0:45:11.565 friends that were in attendance where people I'd met in Brisbane. 0:45:12.005 --> 0:45:14.645 And who did he bring? Who was on his side 0:45:14.645 --> 0:45:15.245 of the aisle? 0:45:15.645 --> 0:45:18.965 He had his family, He's got three brothers, his dad 0:45:19.005 --> 0:45:24.765 and stepmom were there, and he had a table full 0:45:24.805 --> 0:45:27.845 of friends that These were all people I'd never met, 0:45:27.845 --> 0:45:31.085 by the way, even his family. I'd met his dad 0:45:31.245 --> 0:45:35.245 once when I was seventeen. We were on our way 0:45:35.285 --> 0:45:39.005 to some event and we stopped in. But other than that, 0:45:39.165 --> 0:45:41.445 I had never seen these people until the day before 0:45:41.445 --> 0:45:44.005 my wedding, and all of his friends the day of 0:45:44.045 --> 0:45:47.805 the wedding, so I felt so uncomfortable. It was such 0:45:47.805 --> 0:45:51.125 a weird experience to just I felt like I was 0:45:51.165 --> 0:45:53.845 just copied and pasted into his life in a way, 0:45:53.965 --> 0:46:00.165 like I just existed one day. But yeah, I was telling, 0:46:00.285 --> 0:46:02.605 you know, my friends, like you can't say anything to 0:46:02.645 --> 0:46:05.725 anyone about how we met. You know, this is a secret. 0:46:05.805 --> 0:46:06.805 His family don't know. 0:46:07.125 --> 0:46:12.165 So I don't understand his brothers and his parents didn't 0:46:12.205 --> 0:46:14.365 know how you'd meet. 0:46:14.925 --> 0:46:18.605 No, I don't even know if when they even found 0:46:18.645 --> 0:46:22.005 out about me, to be honest, right, his dad, I mean, yeah, 0:46:22.005 --> 0:46:24.445 as I said, I met him, we went dropped into 0:46:24.485 --> 0:46:28.245 his house the end of grade twelve, But I don't 0:46:28.245 --> 0:46:30.685 know if he remembers that would or knew that that 0:46:30.805 --> 0:46:33.965 was the same person, because you know the years, two 0:46:34.005 --> 0:46:35.165 years had gone by since then. 0:46:36.205 --> 0:46:36.445 Gude. 0:46:36.485 --> 0:46:40.205 That makes the wedding speeches difficult, doesn't it. Yeah, a 0:46:40.285 --> 0:46:43.725 big part of weddings normally is the origin story. 0:46:43.965 --> 0:46:47.725 Yes exactly. I forget who actually made a speech. I 0:46:47.725 --> 0:46:50.725 know Amanda spoke on my behalf, and a couple of 0:46:50.765 --> 0:46:55.805 my other girlfriends said something, but I think Paul might 0:46:55.845 --> 0:46:59.085 have been the only one who spoke on his side, 0:46:59.165 --> 0:47:01.725 maybe his brother, But again, yeah, it would have been 0:47:01.805 --> 0:47:05.885 so surface level stuff because he knew nothing about me. 0:47:07.605 --> 0:47:11.285 Don't go anywhere. Because after the break, Sarah talks about 0:47:11.325 --> 0:47:14.725 the moment she found the courage to speak out and 0:47:14.805 --> 0:47:20.485 how that decision changed the course of her life. You 0:47:20.525 --> 0:47:24.125 know what's interesting is you mentioned earlier going to see 0:47:24.125 --> 0:47:29.725 a counselor so within you, even in this period in 0:47:29.765 --> 0:47:33.045 which really he's been really the only sun and rain 0:47:33.205 --> 0:47:38.485 that's been falling upon you, a little seed of something 0:47:38.525 --> 0:47:42.525 has been germinating within you that makes you seek out 0:47:42.565 --> 0:47:44.045 counseling in the first place. 0:47:44.765 --> 0:47:48.685 What was that, Well, it was actually something completely random 0:47:48.725 --> 0:47:52.725 that got me in the door of counseling, and in hindsight, 0:47:52.725 --> 0:47:55.525 I'm so glad it happened. I was actually in a 0:47:55.525 --> 0:47:58.645 car accident and it was quite bad, and I got 0:47:59.045 --> 0:48:02.765 hit by a truck and I ended up struggling. I 0:48:02.765 --> 0:48:04.445 guess to get in a car for a little while 0:48:04.445 --> 0:48:09.205 after that, So I went to seek out counseling to deal. 0:48:09.005 --> 0:48:13.125 With because otherwise he would have been very anti you 0:48:13.245 --> 0:48:15.685 going to capt. 0:48:15.045 --> 0:48:18.245 Yes, one hundred percent, and he ended up stopping me. 0:48:18.445 --> 0:48:22.045 So when I went to this woman, it was probably 0:48:22.685 --> 0:48:26.925 within the first session, maybe the second, she started directing 0:48:26.925 --> 0:48:30.525 the questioning more towards my relationship and I was wondering 0:48:30.565 --> 0:48:33.005 why she kept bringing that up and not the accident. 0:48:33.605 --> 0:48:36.285 And then yeah, she slips me a couple pieces of 0:48:36.325 --> 0:48:40.725 paper on domestic violence and starts saying, you know, I 0:48:40.725 --> 0:48:44.565 don't think you're in a healthy marriage. I do believe that, 0:48:44.845 --> 0:48:48.165 you know, you're suffering a few of these things. 0:48:48.805 --> 0:48:49.325 And I was. 0:48:50.005 --> 0:48:52.645 Thought, oh, that's really strange, really like, I didn't know 0:48:52.645 --> 0:48:55.125 how to take that. And the first thing I did 0:48:55.125 --> 0:48:56.805 when I left is went home and talked to him 0:48:56.845 --> 0:49:01.605 about it. And that's just how naive I was, I 0:49:01.645 --> 0:49:04.565 suppose and young. I just went, oh, this is what 0:49:04.605 --> 0:49:07.925 the psychologist just told me. What do you think you know? 0:49:08.045 --> 0:49:09.925 And wanted his person tip of it. 0:49:10.365 --> 0:49:13.725 What was his perspective by the way, Oh, he instantly 0:49:13.925 --> 0:49:17.205 was dismissing it. And you know that's rubbish. She's just toxic. 0:49:17.645 --> 0:49:19.205 She has no idea what she's talking about. Do not 0:49:19.285 --> 0:49:24.405 go there ever again, you know. So I quickly asked 0:49:24.525 --> 0:49:27.045 those sessions. I think I only had a you know 0:49:27.165 --> 0:49:31.285 two with her and never went back. But it did 0:49:31.325 --> 0:49:34.085 plant a seed. I think it was the first time 0:49:34.165 --> 0:49:38.285 that I went, you know, maybe there is something not 0:49:38.365 --> 0:49:41.085 quite right. And then when you start hearing it from 0:49:41.125 --> 0:49:43.605 you know, the other the other moms and things like that. 0:49:43.965 --> 0:49:46.365 It starts to get you really thinking about things. 0:49:46.725 --> 0:49:50.045 And so what period of time had elapsed before you 0:49:51.085 --> 0:49:54.165 did you resume counseling at some point? 0:49:54.685 --> 0:50:00.845 Yes, I ended up going back to counseling sometime towards 0:50:01.685 --> 0:50:05.645 the end of our relationship. He made me believe that 0:50:05.685 --> 0:50:09.645 I had anger problems, so I thought, I'll go to 0:50:09.685 --> 0:50:12.485 see a psychologist and get that sorted out. And I 0:50:12.485 --> 0:50:17.045 saw this a different psychologist, and she started then saying 0:50:17.045 --> 0:50:19.605 the same things as the first one and going, I 0:50:20.005 --> 0:50:22.685 don't think you have a problem. I think you know 0:50:22.725 --> 0:50:25.765 you're a victim here. But I still wasn't honest with 0:50:26.005 --> 0:50:28.245 how the relationship started, so this is just pure we're 0:50:28.245 --> 0:50:29.925 based on everything after that. 0:50:30.125 --> 0:50:32.085 And how long had you been married at this point? 0:50:32.805 --> 0:50:37.245 This would have been maybe five or six years into 0:50:37.285 --> 0:50:40.485 the marriage, I'd say, like it was getting towards the end. 0:50:41.605 --> 0:50:44.165 And then I stopped going to her again, I think 0:50:44.205 --> 0:50:46.885 because she was saying all the same things as the 0:50:47.245 --> 0:50:50.965 first one. And these people aren't listening to me. I 0:50:51.005 --> 0:50:53.205 have a problem. They need to fix me. That was 0:50:53.245 --> 0:50:57.565 my mindset. And then I saw I started seeing another psychologist, 0:50:58.325 --> 0:51:03.245 probably the year that I ended up leaving him, and 0:51:04.165 --> 0:51:07.165 I still wasn't honest with how the relationship started, but 0:51:08.285 --> 0:51:11.045 I started mapping out had a real plan about I 0:51:11.045 --> 0:51:14.445 think I had realized how bad the relationship was, and 0:51:14.525 --> 0:51:18.205 i'd become aware that it was not healthy for me 0:51:18.965 --> 0:51:20.325 and mapped out a plan with him. 0:51:20.765 --> 0:51:23.885 At what point did you realize that it's not just 0:51:23.925 --> 0:51:26.445 a matter of it being a bad relationship, but the 0:51:26.445 --> 0:51:30.885 fact that the relationship could never be good because of 0:51:30.925 --> 0:51:34.405 how it had begun and how you were brought to it. 0:51:34.845 --> 0:51:38.645 At what point did those pieces click together? I imagine that 0:51:38.685 --> 0:51:39.605 took a long time. 0:51:40.165 --> 0:51:43.165 Yeah, it took a really long time, and I probably 0:51:43.245 --> 0:51:48.005 didn't fully grasp that until after we separated and I 0:51:48.045 --> 0:51:53.765 had some space from him, and I started really taking 0:51:53.845 --> 0:51:57.845 note about I was reading a lot, I was informing 0:51:57.845 --> 0:52:00.765 myself about things, I was talking to people a lot more. 0:52:00.765 --> 0:52:03.765 I was probably felt like I could be. 0:52:03.925 --> 0:52:08.525 More honest about how my relationship started, which opened up 0:52:08.565 --> 0:52:12.245 a lot more conversation with people. And it was probably 0:52:12.285 --> 0:52:17.565 in those first few years after leaving him that I 0:52:17.725 --> 0:52:22.845 realized what had actually happened to me and that the 0:52:22.885 --> 0:52:28.125 whole thing was just it was just manipulation. And abuse 0:52:28.205 --> 0:52:32.325 the whole time. And yeah, as you say, a relationship 0:52:32.365 --> 0:52:34.965 that starts like that can only continue like that. It 0:52:35.005 --> 0:52:36.485 can't it can't change. 0:52:36.965 --> 0:52:40.245 How was he? And I just want to point out 0:52:40.285 --> 0:52:44.005 to our listeners that you've got a family court ruling. 0:52:44.325 --> 0:52:47.725 Obviously you don't want to discuss in detail anything that 0:52:47.765 --> 0:52:53.645 would jeopardize anything there. But how was he when you 0:52:53.885 --> 0:52:58.365 started to grow into yourself, when you were having these realizations. 0:52:59.525 --> 0:53:00.085 How was he? 0:53:02.405 --> 0:53:07.045 I think I actually think I tried to reach out 0:53:07.085 --> 0:53:09.685 to him and tell him how I actually felt and that, 0:53:10.445 --> 0:53:12.405 you know, tell him what he did was really wrong 0:53:12.565 --> 0:53:15.565 and how damaging it has been to me. I think 0:53:15.605 --> 0:53:20.525 I attempted that once and he quickly shot it down 0:53:20.965 --> 0:53:23.205 and sort of turned it into the fact that it 0:53:23.285 --> 0:53:27.805 was me who instigated it all and in the beginning, 0:53:27.845 --> 0:53:31.245 and I basically forced myself on him, like he was 0:53:31.285 --> 0:53:33.445 really trying hard to get me to think that it 0:53:33.565 --> 0:53:36.845 was my fault that it happened, and so there was 0:53:36.885 --> 0:53:42.965 no accountability or any responsibility taken for that. And yeah, 0:53:42.965 --> 0:53:45.165 that was pretty devastating, because I honestly think if you 0:53:45.365 --> 0:53:49.845 just said sorry, I messed up, that was wrong, I 0:53:49.845 --> 0:53:51.485 think I would have been able to process that a 0:53:51.485 --> 0:53:54.925 lot more and move on with my life. But I 0:53:54.925 --> 0:53:57.605 think it just became this constant power struggle, you know, 0:53:57.725 --> 0:53:58.925 to regain that. 0:53:59.245 --> 0:54:03.645 It's interesting though, because you say move on with your life, 0:54:03.965 --> 0:54:06.245 but even though you may have been unaware of it, 0:54:06.565 --> 0:54:10.605 you were moving on with your life because the work 0:54:10.645 --> 0:54:15.325 that you started to do, which I imagine was beyond painful, 0:54:15.805 --> 0:54:20.845 led you to going to the police. 0:54:21.085 --> 0:54:22.605 Yeah, like, that's. 0:54:22.365 --> 0:54:27.005 A remarkable Sarah. That's a remarkable isn't it. That is 0:54:27.205 --> 0:54:32.045 properly someone who's very different from the girl who was 0:54:32.085 --> 0:54:36.365 back here. Yeah, or that was the little seed inside 0:54:36.405 --> 0:54:36.925 that girl. 0:54:37.685 --> 0:54:42.485 Yeah, And it was incredibly hard for me to make 0:54:42.485 --> 0:54:46.645 the steps to go to police. I un denied about 0:54:46.685 --> 0:54:49.645 it for a long while, like years. It wasn't a 0:54:49.725 --> 0:54:53.485 quick decision for me. I'm very, very blessed to have 0:54:54.405 --> 0:54:58.085 Amanda by my side. She's always been my biggest advocate 0:54:58.325 --> 0:55:01.485 and has had a belief in me that I had 0:55:01.485 --> 0:55:04.045 the strength to do that, and almost feel like in 0:55:04.085 --> 0:55:05.605 some way she kicked me in the pants and so 0:55:05.885 --> 0:55:10.605 get to the police, you know. But it was about 0:55:11.165 --> 0:55:14.405 three and a half years after I'd left him that 0:55:15.125 --> 0:55:17.805 I was sitting in Amanda's kitchen with her one day 0:55:17.845 --> 0:55:22.125 and we'd been talking about it, and I'd been getting 0:55:22.165 --> 0:55:25.805 closer and closer I suppose to wanting to go and 0:55:25.845 --> 0:55:28.885 tell somebody, and she said, why don't we just get them. 0:55:28.925 --> 0:55:30.965 We'll call them and get them to come here. Then 0:55:31.005 --> 0:55:34.685 it's less confronting, and I was like, okay. So she 0:55:34.805 --> 0:55:37.605 rings the police for me and explains the situation, and 0:55:37.645 --> 0:55:39.565 they said they were going to send a unit out 0:55:39.605 --> 0:55:42.405 to her house, but we quickly got a phone call 0:55:42.525 --> 0:55:46.165 back and they wanted us to go into the police 0:55:46.165 --> 0:55:48.925 because just because of the sensitive nature of it, not 0:55:49.045 --> 0:55:52.565 all officers may be equipped to deal with it. So 0:55:52.605 --> 0:55:56.525 we went into the police station and then got sent 0:55:56.605 --> 0:56:01.165 to the CIB at Fernie Grove, and that's when I 0:56:01.245 --> 0:56:08.045 met Detective Julia for the first time and sat down 0:56:08.085 --> 0:56:11.925 with her and just floated a bunch of my story. 0:56:12.485 --> 0:56:17.885 She's probably the first person that I just was honest with, 0:56:19.605 --> 0:56:20.645 just laid it all out there. 0:56:21.245 --> 0:56:23.645 How was that, by the way, How did how did 0:56:23.685 --> 0:56:26.445 that feel to you? For the first time, to tell 0:56:27.005 --> 0:56:27.565 the truth? 0:56:27.885 --> 0:56:30.845 It was scary because I knew once I band aid off, 0:56:30.845 --> 0:56:35.125 there's no gone back, you know, But it was just 0:56:35.285 --> 0:56:39.805 like a huge weight had been lifted, and mostly to 0:56:40.165 --> 0:56:43.925 the way that she received that information. I think helped 0:56:44.205 --> 0:56:47.565 me feel that way, because you know, I had had 0:56:47.605 --> 0:56:54.205 a lot of instances throughout, you know, my separation where 0:56:54.205 --> 0:56:56.325 I felt like I had a lot of slammed doors 0:56:56.325 --> 0:57:00.405 in my face and wasn't getting anywhere within the institutions 0:57:00.405 --> 0:57:02.525 and the systems that are available for. 0:57:02.525 --> 0:57:06.405 People because people wanted to minimize what had happened or 0:57:06.445 --> 0:57:09.205 it was too complex for them to entertain. 0:57:09.845 --> 0:57:12.725 Yeah, I think, you know, it is such a complex 0:57:12.765 --> 0:57:15.845 situation when you know, I think a lot of people 0:57:15.885 --> 0:57:18.685 saw it and since that there was a marriage there, 0:57:18.805 --> 0:57:22.885 so it couldn't have been that bad. And I just 0:57:22.925 --> 0:57:24.925 felt like no one was looking at the bigger picture 0:57:25.085 --> 0:57:28.165 or had an understanding of what I had gone through, 0:57:28.325 --> 0:57:32.245 and I found it really difficult to get protection in 0:57:32.325 --> 0:57:37.085 place and to get help. I suppose, so to have 0:57:37.205 --> 0:57:42.485 her sit there and just listen and receive that and 0:57:43.965 --> 0:57:47.565 believe me and tell me that she's going to do 0:57:47.605 --> 0:57:50.005 something with that information, I walked out of there just, 0:57:51.805 --> 0:57:56.165 I don't know, speechless, Like I don't think even at 0:57:56.165 --> 0:58:01.205 that point I ever thought that it would progress past that. 0:58:01.365 --> 0:58:04.645 I didn't think it would that, you know, I told 0:58:04.645 --> 0:58:07.245 the truth. I'd said my story to someone and it 0:58:07.325 --> 0:58:11.485 was received and was huge. 0:58:11.885 --> 0:58:16.165 And then so Detective Julia led you through the process. Then. 0:58:16.965 --> 0:58:19.605 Yeah, so she got back in contact with me to 0:58:19.845 --> 0:58:22.965 come in and make a formal statement. So when I 0:58:23.005 --> 0:58:24.645 first sat down with her, it was more just a 0:58:24.685 --> 0:58:29.285 general conversation where she got the gist of what had happened, 0:58:29.325 --> 0:58:32.685 and she'd obviously gone away and spoken to her superiors 0:58:32.765 --> 0:58:36.165 or whatnot, and so we sat down. We had a 0:58:36.165 --> 0:58:39.165 couple of sessions of going through my statement. It was 0:58:39.925 --> 0:58:42.445 I think the first time I sat down there were 0:58:42.445 --> 0:58:45.005 two four hour blocks. It was about eight hours in total, 0:58:45.525 --> 0:58:47.125 and then I had to go back a second time 0:58:47.165 --> 0:58:51.605 and do a second statement. Yeah, so she really got 0:58:51.645 --> 0:58:55.085 the ball rolling, I suppose, And you know, I still 0:58:55.085 --> 0:58:57.685 can't believe that that she was able to get it 0:58:57.725 --> 0:58:59.565 as far as it went to be honest. 0:58:59.365 --> 0:59:02.805 Yes, how far it went was it went to court, yes, 0:59:03.045 --> 0:59:04.445 and that was another ordeal. 0:59:05.645 --> 0:59:05.885 Yeah. 0:59:05.925 --> 0:59:08.605 So the trial was last year, just every year ago. 0:59:09.365 --> 0:59:12.885 So I first made that statement the beginning of twenty eighteen. 0:59:13.445 --> 0:59:13.885 Wow. 0:59:14.005 --> 0:59:17.965 He wasn't charged until twenty twenty wow, and then didn't 0:59:17.965 --> 0:59:21.005 go to trial until twenty twenty four. So it is 0:59:21.285 --> 0:59:24.205 a very very long process. 0:59:24.285 --> 0:59:28.885 In the trial. I mean you really the evolution of you, 0:59:29.445 --> 0:59:34.605 it feels like, continued throughout the trial in your was 0:59:34.605 --> 0:59:37.765 it a victim impact statement where you addressed the court 0:59:39.285 --> 0:59:43.645 and you spoke so not only eloquently, but the points 0:59:43.685 --> 0:59:47.285 that you raised were quite extraordinary ones because I gathered 0:59:47.285 --> 0:59:51.485 that in the case they were focusing on whether you 0:59:51.485 --> 0:59:54.085 were fifteen or whether you were sixteen. Yeah. 0:59:54.925 --> 0:59:57.965 The whole thing was this argument over a six month 0:59:58.045 --> 1:00:01.725 period basically, so there was no denial of a relationship, 1:00:02.285 --> 1:00:04.885 but they were, you know, defense were arguing that the 1:00:04.925 --> 1:00:09.205 relationship started when I was sixteen as opposed to fifteen. 1:00:08.965 --> 1:00:11.965 In which case it would not have been illegal, no, 1:00:12.325 --> 1:00:15.685 even though he still had a duty of care to you. 1:00:15.925 --> 1:00:16.365 Yeah. 1:00:16.405 --> 1:00:21.645 So Queensland's been very far behind with the special care laws. 1:00:22.245 --> 1:00:25.325 A lot of the other states have implemented special care 1:00:25.405 --> 1:00:30.765 laws years ago, which basically protect children up to the 1:00:30.805 --> 1:00:34.845 age of you know, sixteen seventeen when they're with people 1:00:34.845 --> 1:00:38.805 in positions of power, you know, like teachers, coaches, doctors, 1:00:38.925 --> 1:00:43.925 all that kind of stuff. Queensland have only just instigated 1:00:44.005 --> 1:00:46.805 laws to that effect. I think towards the end of 1:00:46.845 --> 1:00:47.925 last year was. 1:00:47.845 --> 1:00:50.605 That as a result of your case. 1:00:50.805 --> 1:00:55.085 Not directly mine. I think it's just become such a 1:00:55.125 --> 1:00:58.765 common thing. I feel like every time I'm on Facebook 1:00:58.845 --> 1:01:03.125 or something, I'm seeing articles of very similar stories of 1:01:03.165 --> 1:01:07.045 girls who have been groomed into these relationships from a 1:01:07.085 --> 1:01:12.925 similar age. And yeah, I think collectively, there's been so 1:01:13.005 --> 1:01:15.925 much of it happening that people have started advocating for 1:01:16.005 --> 1:01:16.645 those changes. 1:01:16.685 --> 1:01:19.245 So thankfully, finally we do have those laws. 1:01:19.325 --> 1:01:24.885 Now, you were face to face in court with Paul Yeap, 1:01:25.845 --> 1:01:26.565 and how was that? 1:01:28.045 --> 1:01:28.725 It was hard? 1:01:30.165 --> 1:01:33.365 Obviously I didn't look at him. I didn't want to 1:01:33.405 --> 1:01:38.005 look at him. I was allowed to have a support 1:01:38.005 --> 1:01:42.965 person with me. But what I didn't realize was that 1:01:43.325 --> 1:01:48.085 defense actually can vet your support person and prevent them 1:01:48.125 --> 1:01:51.005 from coming in, which I feel like defeats the purpose 1:01:51.045 --> 1:01:53.285 of even having a support person in the first place. 1:01:53.445 --> 1:01:57.005 So the night before I was meant to appear in 1:01:57.645 --> 1:02:00.085 to give my evidence, it was quite late at night, 1:02:00.165 --> 1:02:02.605 I was in bed. I get a phone call from 1:02:02.605 --> 1:02:06.125 the DPP saying that Defense have denied the support person 1:02:06.165 --> 1:02:09.125 I put forward, And I said, can they do that? 1:02:10.005 --> 1:02:13.085 And she said, yeah, they can, but they haven't given 1:02:13.205 --> 1:02:13.765 us a reason. 1:02:13.845 --> 1:02:16.205 Why do they have to give a reason. 1:02:16.925 --> 1:02:20.085 Well, I don't know if they have to give a 1:02:20.125 --> 1:02:23.285 reason or whether they just hadn't said it, because I 1:02:23.365 --> 1:02:26.845 was like, what reason is it that my friend can't 1:02:26.885 --> 1:02:28.565 come in? Because it was a friend that I'd made 1:02:28.645 --> 1:02:31.685 since moving to Brisbane, so she wasn't around in the 1:02:31.685 --> 1:02:35.245 time of the offense anyway, she said, oh, can you 1:02:35.245 --> 1:02:38.445 try and find somebody else? So I organized another friend 1:02:39.125 --> 1:02:42.285 to come, and both of these friends of mine actually 1:02:42.285 --> 1:02:44.285 came with me the next morning, so they were both there. 1:02:45.045 --> 1:02:51.645 Found out that morning that the other friend was also denied. Oh, 1:02:51.685 --> 1:02:55.845 and I said, why this doesn't make sense, and it 1:02:55.925 --> 1:03:00.005 was because they might be called up to give evidence themselves. 1:03:00.445 --> 1:03:04.205 And I'm thinking for what reason. They weren't even from 1:03:04.245 --> 1:03:08.325 Harvey Bay, they weren't around, Like what questioning could they 1:03:08.965 --> 1:03:14.165 possible we be needed for? So I ended up having 1:03:14.245 --> 1:03:17.525 to go in initially by myself without a support person 1:03:17.525 --> 1:03:21.285 because obviously this had happened so last minute. Prior to 1:03:21.325 --> 1:03:24.445 going in, I didn't have anyone else because a lot 1:03:24.485 --> 1:03:27.485 of other people that I had were already subpoena to 1:03:27.525 --> 1:03:30.645 give evidence. So my friends are madly on the phone 1:03:30.685 --> 1:03:33.925 trying to get somebody to come. Luckily, my friend's mum 1:03:35.245 --> 1:03:38.325 was able to come a bit later on in the day, 1:03:39.165 --> 1:03:43.725 so she wandered in sometime while I was getting cross examined. 1:03:43.645 --> 1:03:46.205 So she came as like just someone sitting in the course. 1:03:46.325 --> 1:03:48.645 Yeah, so it's just someone that can just sit there 1:03:48.685 --> 1:03:51.365 so that you feel supported, you can look at them 1:03:51.405 --> 1:03:54.885 for that connection and stuff, which it was nice to 1:03:54.925 --> 1:03:58.245 have someone in there. It's such a confronting experience, and 1:03:58.325 --> 1:04:01.805 it just I was completely gobsmacked that I had to 1:04:01.805 --> 1:04:05.325 go in by myself because they preach about having all 1:04:05.405 --> 1:04:09.605 of these special considerations for victims of these crimes, one 1:04:09.645 --> 1:04:13.165 being support person that then no one ever tells you 1:04:13.245 --> 1:04:18.125 that the perpetrator can actually block those people from being 1:04:18.165 --> 1:04:20.405 there for you. So I didn't actually have a support 1:04:20.405 --> 1:04:23.365 person for you know, for half of half of that 1:04:23.525 --> 1:04:24.485 my evidence. 1:04:24.645 --> 1:04:26.725 How long was the trial, by the way. 1:04:26.605 --> 1:04:29.045 It went for the four weeks, over the full five days. 1:04:29.285 --> 1:04:31.565 Yeah, and then he was sentenced. 1:04:32.045 --> 1:04:38.205 Yes, so he was found guilty of five charges actually 1:04:38.205 --> 1:04:41.805 five charges I think of indecent treatment of a child 1:04:42.165 --> 1:04:44.765 and one charge of maintaining a relationship with a child, 1:04:45.525 --> 1:04:48.925 and then was sentenced to two and a half years 1:04:49.045 --> 1:04:54.005 but suspended, so one year, three month suspended sentence, so 1:04:54.045 --> 1:04:55.765 he only has to serve half of. 1:04:55.725 --> 1:04:58.245 It, right, so he's in jail now. 1:04:58.445 --> 1:04:59.845 He is still in jail at the moment. 1:04:59.925 --> 1:05:04.165 Yes, So how did that feel? Because that does seem 1:05:04.725 --> 1:05:11.125 like an extremely light sentence. However, it also amazing that 1:05:11.165 --> 1:05:15.365 he got sentenced, knowing what we know about the legal 1:05:15.405 --> 1:05:18.885 process and the treatment of yeah, young women. 1:05:19.205 --> 1:05:19.805 Yeah, for sure. 1:05:20.205 --> 1:05:23.525 The fact that it even made it a trial was crazy, 1:05:23.645 --> 1:05:26.845 because especially these historical cases, a lot of them don't 1:05:26.845 --> 1:05:30.245 even get that far. So the fact that we got 1:05:30.245 --> 1:05:34.565 a trial was enormous. But yeah, that being said, the 1:05:34.605 --> 1:05:39.645 sentencing was still I feel quite light considering what he'd done, 1:05:39.765 --> 1:05:42.165 especially in a position of power that he was in, 1:05:42.485 --> 1:05:45.685 where he's literally in charge of caring, you know, being 1:05:45.685 --> 1:05:47.005 a caretaker for a child. 1:05:47.845 --> 1:05:51.845 People often speak about the feeling of affirmation when there 1:05:51.885 --> 1:05:54.605 is a sentencing and when somebody is found guilty of 1:05:54.645 --> 1:05:59.845 something because for all those years where you were convinced 1:06:00.525 --> 1:06:03.685 by the external force of him that it was you 1:06:04.365 --> 1:06:07.245 and that there was nothing wrong. How did it feel 1:06:07.285 --> 1:06:09.205 when he was sentenced? 1:06:09.405 --> 1:06:10.445 We can't put in words. 1:06:10.965 --> 1:06:13.925 It was more when I heard that they'd found him 1:06:13.965 --> 1:06:18.525 guilty that I can't explain to you the feeling that 1:06:18.565 --> 1:06:23.365 came over me. It was just such emotion. I just 1:06:24.085 --> 1:06:26.845 I was buling my eyes out. I actually didn't go 1:06:26.965 --> 1:06:31.445 into the courtroom initially because I didn't want to be 1:06:31.805 --> 1:06:35.085 in there around other people. If he was found not 1:06:35.085 --> 1:06:37.005 guilty of everything, I didn't want to have. I didn't 1:06:37.725 --> 1:06:40.925 want to experience that in front of people. So I said, oh, 1:06:40.965 --> 1:06:43.565 I might just stay in the side room, and my 1:06:43.565 --> 1:06:47.005 friend said, well, I'll text you through the verdicts as 1:06:47.045 --> 1:06:49.325 they come through. And the very first text I get 1:06:49.405 --> 1:06:53.645 was guilty. Wow, and I just couldn't believe. I leaped 1:06:53.685 --> 1:06:56.525 up off my chair. I shoved my baby. I just 1:06:56.565 --> 1:06:59.005 because I just had a baby in February last year. 1:06:59.405 --> 1:07:02.765 So I shoved my baby to somebody and then raced 1:07:02.765 --> 1:07:05.285 in because I had to hear the rest. And yeah, 1:07:05.765 --> 1:07:09.085 there was only I think two charges that were not guilty. 1:07:09.765 --> 1:07:14.045 But I was just overcome by emotion and I was 1:07:14.085 --> 1:07:16.645 just so I was openly sobbing. I just it was 1:07:17.325 --> 1:07:19.805 I've never been that emotional in my life. I couldn't 1:07:19.845 --> 1:07:24.205 control it, but it was so completely validating to have, 1:07:24.565 --> 1:07:25.685 you know, they it's. 1:07:25.485 --> 1:07:26.525 Also very powerful. 1:07:26.565 --> 1:07:30.405 They the juries stand up all in a like one 1:07:30.445 --> 1:07:34.325 giant line, right, and the judge will get one person 1:07:34.405 --> 1:07:36.725 to read the verdict of each charge and then they 1:07:36.765 --> 1:07:38.845 all have to repeat it and it goes on and 1:07:38.845 --> 1:07:41.445 on and on. So you've sort of got twelve people 1:07:41.485 --> 1:07:44.925 there facing you in this line saying you know, guilty, 1:07:45.205 --> 1:07:47.445 and a few of them were making eye contact with 1:07:47.565 --> 1:07:50.765 me and sort of nodding at me like they were 1:07:50.805 --> 1:07:53.805 there and supporting me and what i'd gone through, like 1:07:53.845 --> 1:07:56.645 they understood it and that they had seen you yes, 1:07:56.845 --> 1:08:00.485 And that was incredibly powerful. It just I can't explain 1:08:00.565 --> 1:08:06.245 what that felt like. I don't have the words, but yeah, incredible. 1:08:06.925 --> 1:08:08.525 How is your life now? 1:08:09.765 --> 1:08:12.285 It's good, It's on its way. 1:08:12.725 --> 1:08:19.045 You know. I'm still still receiving counseling for everything. There's 1:08:19.045 --> 1:08:22.205 a lot to unpack, there's a lot of years. I 1:08:22.205 --> 1:08:24.565 think it'll be something that I'm doing for quite some time. 1:08:24.725 --> 1:08:28.605 But I've sort of reached the point now where I 1:08:28.605 --> 1:08:31.925 feel like it's time to have a voice and come 1:08:31.965 --> 1:08:35.805 forward with my story because I'm very passionate. 1:08:35.485 --> 1:08:39.365 And you're now doing work on behalf of other children. 1:08:39.765 --> 1:08:42.885 So yeah, So just this year, I've started my own organization, 1:08:43.005 --> 1:08:47.565 step In for Kids, basically coming up with educational programs 1:08:47.645 --> 1:08:52.005 that I can deliver in school settings for educators, students, 1:08:52.165 --> 1:08:54.965 you know, even just community members as well, just to 1:08:55.165 --> 1:08:58.285 educate them on the science of grooming what that actually 1:08:58.325 --> 1:09:02.885 looks like, especially in those teenage years. I think a 1:09:02.885 --> 1:09:06.405 lot of people forget how vulnerable teenagers are. You know 1:09:06.565 --> 1:09:09.445 a lot of the criticisms I've faced were that but 1:09:09.525 --> 1:09:13.165 you were fifteen, you know, like basically a grown up. Yes, 1:09:13.765 --> 1:09:16.445 but you're still a child, Like your brain is still 1:09:16.445 --> 1:09:19.485 developing into your mid twenties, and especially when you're dealing 1:09:19.485 --> 1:09:20.965 with these people in positions of power. 1:09:21.725 --> 1:09:24.085 I want to read you something. I mean, these are 1:09:24.085 --> 1:09:27.285 your own words. It's from a letter you wrote to 1:09:27.325 --> 1:09:31.525 The Australian. I think silenced and dismissed how the legal 1:09:31.565 --> 1:09:38.565 system minimizes women's trauma and referring to the trial, you 1:09:38.645 --> 1:09:43.205 said this. Throughout the trial, the narrative portrayed the relationship 1:09:43.525 --> 1:09:49.205 as a misguided love affair, attributing romantic feelings from my abuser, 1:09:49.845 --> 1:09:54.525 and portrayed me as an obsessive teenager with an infatuation 1:09:55.005 --> 1:09:59.685 to justify the perpetrator's actions. It was distressing to bear 1:09:59.725 --> 1:10:02.525 the blame as a child under the age of consent. 1:10:03.365 --> 1:10:07.445 I was exactly that a child. By the time I 1:10:07.485 --> 1:10:14.085 turned sixteen, groomy had ensnared me completely. There's very little 1:10:14.125 --> 1:10:18.885 acknowledgment of that when it comes to abuses of power 1:10:19.045 --> 1:10:22.845 like this, that a girl can be, in this case, 1:10:23.605 --> 1:10:27.565 judged for maybe having a crush on someone who should 1:10:27.645 --> 1:10:32.205 be a person, a paternal figure, who should be actually 1:10:32.285 --> 1:10:35.125 someone that you can feel like that about, and they're 1:10:35.165 --> 1:10:39.245 the adult, and they're like, that's okay, I will not 1:10:39.285 --> 1:10:43.365 abuse that power. You have changed, Sarah Copp things, not 1:10:43.565 --> 1:10:48.005 only for yourself, but for everyone who will hear your 1:10:48.125 --> 1:10:54.565 story and for the young women, the girls slash, young 1:10:54.605 --> 1:11:01.525 women who find themselves in positions as well that they 1:11:01.605 --> 1:11:10.005 shouldn't necessarily be put in. Yeah, your strength is formidable. 1:11:10.765 --> 1:11:13.725 Yeah, I do hope I can make a difference in 1:11:14.885 --> 1:11:19.765 someone's life, and even if that is anyone else out 1:11:19.805 --> 1:11:23.805 there that has gone through something similar that might still 1:11:23.845 --> 1:11:28.005 be keeping that secret and isn't sure if they're ready 1:11:28.045 --> 1:11:30.605 to come forward, Like if I can give someone the 1:11:30.645 --> 1:11:33.605 strength to make that first step and know that there 1:11:33.645 --> 1:11:36.245 are people out there that will listen and believe you, 1:11:36.325 --> 1:11:40.605 and you know, a chance to get justice, That's what 1:11:40.645 --> 1:11:43.765 it's all about. That's only hope that I can help 1:11:43.925 --> 1:11:44.845 people in that way. 1:11:45.565 --> 1:11:49.205 When you were sharing your story with me, it made 1:11:49.245 --> 1:11:51.485 me so angry that I felt like my eyes could 1:11:51.525 --> 1:11:57.165 pop out pop out of my skull. It was deeply 1:11:57.205 --> 1:12:01.565 wrong what happened to you. But the best thing you 1:12:01.605 --> 1:12:04.325 can do in life when something you have been wronged 1:12:05.005 --> 1:12:08.285 is to make it right on behalf of the girl 1:12:08.405 --> 1:12:12.005 that you were and the woman that you are. And 1:12:12.125 --> 1:12:15.885 my wish for you, and I'm sure that all our 1:12:15.885 --> 1:12:19.365 listeners will share it with me, is that you continue 1:12:19.365 --> 1:12:22.645 to dance. You really deserve to dance. 1:12:23.445 --> 1:12:25.085 Thank you make me emotional. 1:12:26.005 --> 1:12:27.445 Well, you've made me emotional. 1:12:29.565 --> 1:12:32.525 Yeah, I appreciate that. I think dance will always be 1:12:32.565 --> 1:12:32.805 in me. 1:12:33.725 --> 1:12:35.765 Well, you know when you were talking about when you 1:12:35.805 --> 1:12:38.445 were a teenager and how you were so exuberant and 1:12:38.485 --> 1:12:41.645 you thought you were too much. I think we'd all 1:12:41.685 --> 1:12:43.245 like to say that too much again. 1:12:44.845 --> 1:12:46.925 Yeah, I don't think you can get the dance out 1:12:46.925 --> 1:12:49.365 of me, that's for sure. I'm currently a dance teacher, 1:12:49.565 --> 1:12:52.765 so I'm passing that on to the next generation. 1:12:53.365 --> 1:12:57.645 Thank you so much for sharing yourself with us, and 1:12:57.965 --> 1:13:01.045 best of luck to you. Your life is going to 1:13:01.125 --> 1:13:02.405 blossom like a flower. 1:13:03.205 --> 1:13:05.525 Thank you very much, and you know I appreciate you 1:13:05.605 --> 1:13:07.965 having me on here so that I can share my story. 1:13:08.285 --> 1:13:09.325 So yeah, thank you. 1:13:10.245 --> 1:13:13.885 Thank you for listening to Sarah Copp's story today. Her 1:13:14.045 --> 1:13:18.525 journey is heartbreaking, yes, but it also is such a 1:13:18.605 --> 1:13:23.125 profound testament to courage and the power of taking action 1:13:24.005 --> 1:13:27.605 even when you feel at your weakest. Sarah's work with 1:13:27.685 --> 1:13:31.245 step In for Kids is changing lives, protecting children, and 1:13:31.285 --> 1:13:35.165 giving survivors a voice. She's proof that even from the 1:13:35.325 --> 1:13:40.525 darkest experiences, hope and change can emerge, and that courage 1:13:40.925 --> 1:13:45.325 isn't the absence of fear, but the determination to act 1:13:45.605 --> 1:13:50.165 despite it. I hope this conversation leaves you reflecting on 1:13:50.325 --> 1:13:55.085 ways we can support survivors, hold people accountable, and help 1:13:55.125 --> 1:13:58.845 create a safer world for children. Thank you, Sarah for 1:13:58.885 --> 1:14:02.925 sharing your story with such honesty and grace, and thank 1:14:03.005 --> 1:14:07.525 you for listening to No Filter. The executive producer of 1:14:07.525 --> 1:14:11.165 No Filter is Nama Brown. The senior producer is Free Player. 1:14:11.725 --> 1:14:15.325 Audio production is by Jacob Brown and video editing is 1:14:15.365 --> 1:14:18.805 by Josh Green. This episode was recorded at Session in 1:14:18.885 --> 1:14:23.245 Progress Studios and I am your host, Kate lane Brook. 1:14:23.725 --> 1:14:25.925 Thank you, as always for listening,