Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mother Mia podcast. Mama Mia acknowledges
Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast
Speaker 1: is recorded on.
Speaker 2: I remember the first time he kissed me, he came
Speaker 2: up behind me. I froze. I just went into complete dissociation.
Speaker 2: I was unresponsive. I just didn't move and like, looking back,
Speaker 2: it was just a complete fear response, you know, And
Speaker 2: it just baffles me that he would continue when someone
Speaker 2: is so unresponsive, you know, like, yeah, as scary.
Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to No Filter. I'm Kate lane Brook
Speaker 1: and today's episode is one of those conversations that stays
Speaker 1: with you long after it's over. We're speaking with Sarah Kopp,
Speaker 1: a woman whose life was dramatically shaped by an experience
Speaker 1: that no one should ever have to endure. As a teenager,
Speaker 1: Sarah was groomed by a teacher, a man she trusted,
Speaker 1: a person meant to guide and protect her, and that
Speaker 1: betrayal would cast a long shadow over her life, leading
Speaker 1: her into a complex and painful journey that eventually included
Speaker 1: marrying him. It's a difficult story, so friends, please listen mindfully.
Speaker 1: It took immense courage for Sarah to confront her past
Speaker 1: to report him to police and to step into a
Speaker 1: role of advocacy and change. Today, Sarah is the founder
Speaker 1: of step In for Kids, a powerful organization dedicated to
Speaker 1: protecting children from abuse and supporting survivors. In this episode,
Speaker 1: we explore Sarah's story with honesty, compassion, and care, her
Speaker 1: journey through trauma, account of blay, and ultimately courage. It's
Speaker 1: a story about survival, it's a story about resilience, and
Speaker 1: it's a story about the transformative power of speaking out
Speaker 1: and abandoning shame. Sarah Copp, Welcome to No Filter.
Speaker 3: Thank you, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: Your story is so extraordinary that I do not know
Speaker 1: how everybody in the country doesn't know it. And in
Speaker 1: a climate where there's a lot of conversation about grooming
Speaker 1: young women, in your case, the responsibilities of teachers, what
Speaker 1: happened to you is so incredible that I would like
Speaker 1: you to take me back, if you can, to the
Speaker 1: time when you were fourteen. You were a high school
Speaker 1: student at school in Queensland. Who were you then?
Speaker 2: Yeah, when I suppose when I was fourteen, before you know,
Speaker 2: all of it happened, I was very fun, loving girl.
Speaker 2: I was into my dancing. You know that was my
Speaker 2: massive passion. I danced every afternoon if I could, you know,
Speaker 2: and on the weekends and things like that with my classes.
Speaker 2: I had a excellent social life with my friends. We
Speaker 2: you know, I grew up in Harvey Bay, so we
Speaker 2: were always at the beach, hanging out and just having
Speaker 2: a good time, good relationships with the people around me
Speaker 2: and my family and things like that. I did well
Speaker 2: at school. I was a bit of a bit of
Speaker 2: a nerd, I suppose, you know, had good grades, tried hard,
Speaker 2: involved myself in all the extracurricular activities and things like that.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I'd say, you know, I was. I was
Speaker 2: a kid that was pretty squared away and just enjoying
Speaker 2: enjoying being a kid, I suppose.
Speaker 1: And also in the cusp of anyone who's been a
Speaker 1: fourteen year old girl, girl on the cusp of womanhood,
Speaker 1: or anyone who's loved or known a fourteen year old
Speaker 1: girl knows what that period is like, where things are
Speaker 1: in flux and things are starting to blossom, and you're
Speaker 1: filled sometimes with insecurity and sometimes with excitement and the
Speaker 1: possibility of life. And then a new teacher arrived at
Speaker 1: your school.
Speaker 2: His name, yep, his name is Paul Greally h So, yeah,
Speaker 2: he started the year that I was in year ten.
Speaker 1: He was a pe teacher, correct, And did he become
Speaker 1: your pe teacher?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: So he became my actual teacher in the second term
Speaker 2: of that year, so it would have been around March,
Speaker 2: after the first school holidays.
Speaker 1: And what was the nature of his arrival? I imagine
Speaker 1: if I go back to school, you know when a
Speaker 1: new teacher comes, he is a bit of amongst the students,
Speaker 1: amongst the girls. Was a cute looking guy. He was
Speaker 1: your pe teacher, I imagine there was that little friss on.
Speaker 3: Yes, so.
Speaker 2: There was a massive buzz about him arriving at the school.
Speaker 2: I remember, you know, one of my good friends had
Speaker 2: him as a teacher in the first term and she
Speaker 2: just talked about him all the time, about.
Speaker 3: How cool he was.
Speaker 2: And I actually hadn't really seen him when I was
Speaker 2: hearing a lot of, you know, the rumors about him.
Speaker 3: So I was a bit intrigued as to who this
Speaker 3: guy was. I suppose.
Speaker 2: I also had a friend that I danced with who
Speaker 2: she just graduated from school, so she wasn't at school
Speaker 2: at the time, but had run into him at a
Speaker 2: nightclub and she was talking about him at dancing right,
Speaker 2: you know, sort of saying you need to you need
Speaker 2: to see whether he remembers me, and you know, talking
Speaker 2: like that. So I'm like, who is this guy? And
Speaker 2: I do remember the first time that I really, I guess,
Speaker 2: had a conversation with him, and my friend that was
Speaker 2: in his class went to speak to him at lunchtime
Speaker 2: and I tagged along, and he was just very very charismatic.
Speaker 2: And what stuck with me, I think was the way
Speaker 2: that he communicated to us as students. It didn't it
Speaker 2: wasn't like all the other teachers. He made you feel
Speaker 2: like you were on his level in some way, like
Speaker 2: a mate, very jokey, in jovial and things like that.
Speaker 2: So I walked away going, oh, wow, he is really cool.
Speaker 2: I felt like he could be a friend, you know,
Speaker 2: rather than a teacher. He was very different, and he
Speaker 2: dressed well, he you know, he wore all the you know,
Speaker 2: luxury sports brands and things like that, had a nice
Speaker 2: tan and flashy smile. So he was very charismatic and
Speaker 2: I could see, you know, what all the hype was about,
Speaker 2: I suppose.
Speaker 1: So you had noticed him obviously, like there's one teacher
Speaker 1: and a lot of students. At what point did you
Speaker 1: realize that he had stuck to notice you?
Speaker 2: So when he became my actual teacher and the subject
Speaker 2: so in year ten, that year we got to choose
Speaker 2: each term a different sport to do, so I had
Speaker 2: chosen to do gymnastics, and that's what he was my
Speaker 2: teacher for. And it was pretty soon after we had
Speaker 2: a few classes, and I suppose he noticed my natural
Speaker 2: physical ability. I guess my background and dance probably helped
Speaker 2: with what I was doing gymnastics, And it was pretty
Speaker 2: quickly that he started asking me questions and saying, oh,
Speaker 2: you're very good at this. What's your background? And I
Speaker 2: said I was a dancer, and he really bonded with
Speaker 2: me over that and said how he has so many
Speaker 2: dancer friends. He loves dancing. And it was from that
Speaker 2: point that every lesson he would talk to me about
Speaker 2: that and talk about my physical capabilities and really compliment
Speaker 2: my strength and my ability that in that way, I suppose, and.
Speaker 1: So there was a you felt that there was bond
Speaker 1: growing between you, and also in those circumstances, I imagine
Speaker 1: to be the chosen one is quite an amazing feeling,
Speaker 1: and particularly at that age, and there's this amazing teacher
Speaker 1: and who has this intimacy with all these children, and
Speaker 1: who's very impressive, and he had noticed you. He singled
Speaker 1: you out, he bigged you up, he made you feel great.
Speaker 1: At what point did it start to transition into an
Speaker 1: even sort of greater intimacy and how does that happen?
Speaker 1: And where did that happen?
Speaker 2: So I would say, you know, over the coming weeks
Speaker 2: in those gymnastics lessons, his compliments and his conversations changed
Speaker 2: from being focused on my physical ability to more my
Speaker 2: actual physical looks and things like that. So it kind
Speaker 2: of shifted from being, oh, you know, you're so good
Speaker 2: at doing that trick to oh, you're so muscular, you
Speaker 2: have such a great, you know, muscly body, And then
Speaker 2: he would start commenting on actual parts of my body,
Speaker 2: which I do remember thinking we're crazy that a teacher
Speaker 2: would say that. But as you say, when you're that
Speaker 2: age and you're just dying to fit in and feel
Speaker 2: like you're a part of you know, being accepted and
Speaker 2: all that kind of stuff, it is so nice to hear.
Speaker 2: And so those conversations also sort of came with I
Speaker 2: suppose he started touching me more in class because obviously
Speaker 2: with gymnastics there is that physical element where you do
Speaker 2: need to spot people when they're doing tricks and things
Speaker 2: like that. Yes, but it I feel like the touching
Speaker 2: started becoming more obvious and touching me in places where
Speaker 2: where I didn't think he needed to. At first, I
Speaker 2: was probably trying to rationalize it, like, oh, it was
Speaker 2: a mistake, you know, it's probably hard to spot someone.
Speaker 2: He did it by accident, But it became more frequent
Speaker 2: and more obvious that he was doing it on purpose,
Speaker 2: so you know, brushing further down my back so that
Speaker 2: he would you know, graze lower areas and things like that.
Speaker 1: The hand lingering just longer than it needed to.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And so that sort of that went on
Speaker 2: for a number of weeks, I suppose, and then he
Speaker 2: sort of started finding ways to associate with me out
Speaker 2: of the class itself. So whether that was at lunchtime
Speaker 2: or you know, before school, he would sit me down
Speaker 2: and help me with assignments and things like that and
Speaker 2: have that one on one time outside of the classroom.
Speaker 2: And he'd always find like take me to a place
Speaker 2: that was somewhat isolated, Like I remember sitting in the
Speaker 2: grand stands of our gym Paul when no one was
Speaker 2: around at lunch, because I don't even think we were
Speaker 2: allowed in there, and we would sit in there and
Speaker 2: he'd go through assignments and you know, just really building
Speaker 2: that relationship, starting to normalize being close to me, and
Speaker 2: you know, the occasional touching of my knee while we're
Speaker 2: sitting down and things like that, and that just became
Speaker 2: more and more common that you then don't think of
Speaker 2: it as unusual.
Speaker 1: Had he been asking you at this point questions about
Speaker 1: your personal life and had you ever had a boyfriend,
Speaker 1: that sort of stuff, so getting to know you on
Speaker 1: that level as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he would ask me about my life in general,
Speaker 2: and we would have conversations. He knew that I came
Speaker 2: from a single mother family. I remember him actually talking
Speaker 2: about a relationship that he'd had with a student from
Speaker 2: the school he was at previously. Oh well, he used
Speaker 2: to draw parallels. Not a sexual relationship that he told me,
Speaker 2: but he would draw parallel saying, oh, you know, you
Speaker 2: remind me so much of this young girl that I
Speaker 2: taught at this school and she had a single mom
Speaker 2: and things like that, and I used to help them
Speaker 2: with things, and yeah, he was very much well aware
Speaker 2: of my home life and my situation. We did at
Speaker 2: some point start getting into conversations about my I guess,
Speaker 2: my history with boyfriends and things like that, but I
Speaker 2: don't can't quite remember when that happened, whether that was
Speaker 2: so early on or if it was once he started
Speaker 2: coming over to my home and things like that, which he.
Speaker 1: Did, because of course this is you're remembering things now
Speaker 1: and seeing them through a very different leans than you
Speaker 1: did at the time. And it was a long time ago.
Speaker 1: It was late nineties.
Speaker 3: Was this the year two thousand? Yeah?
Speaker 1: So two thousand, yeah, a long time And so at
Speaker 1: that point, had other people around you notice that there
Speaker 1: was this growing sense of bonding between you and mister Greeley.
Speaker 2: Yes, I had countless friends and students make comments to
Speaker 2: me about, you know, this relationship that I had with him,
Speaker 2: and there were definitely eyebrows raised about, you know, what's
Speaker 2: actually going on. And I think that contributed to me
Speaker 2: eventually being very isolated from my peers because the questioning
Speaker 2: got so relentless. I really had to back away because
Speaker 2: I just was so afraid of, you know, talking about anything.
Speaker 2: So I started to close off because I just didn't
Speaker 2: want to talk about it, and I ended up really
Speaker 2: not spending any time with people of my own age.
Speaker 1: And was it also because there was a sense that
Speaker 1: there was something that was growing between you and Paul
Speaker 1: that was kind of precious, So you were protecting that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean even in those early days when oh,
Speaker 2: I suppose relationship only existed within the school environment, I
Speaker 2: remember him saying things to me like, even if I
Speaker 2: had a wife and a child, I would leave them
Speaker 2: for you, and it just talk about how fabulous I was,
Speaker 2: Like he really put me up on a pedestal. And
Speaker 2: it did become this secret that I felt like I
Speaker 2: had to protect because there's this man here who cares
Speaker 2: about me and really accepts me for who I am,
Speaker 2: knows all about me and what I'm interested in, and
Speaker 2: loves that about me.
Speaker 3: And so I.
Speaker 2: Did feel like I had to protect him and that secret.
Speaker 1: And sees the specialness in you. And at that age
Speaker 1: often you're racked by the desire that your belief that
Speaker 1: you might be special is a founded one, but you're
Speaker 1: also torn with the fact that maybe you're not. So
Speaker 1: someone who's making new feel like a queen is has
Speaker 1: the most powerful tool in their tool kit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know for myself, and I think most people
Speaker 2: going through those years of adolescence, you are still trying
Speaker 2: to work out who you are and where you fit
Speaker 2: in the bigger picture. I didn't always feel like I
Speaker 2: fit in well with my peers, just because I had
Speaker 2: such a I don't know, outgoing crazy personality. Sometimes I
Speaker 2: felt like I was a bit much for people, you know,
Speaker 2: I guess through my dancing I was always wanting to
Speaker 2: entertain people in some capacity and very confident, and yeah,
Speaker 2: sometimes I felt like it wasn't well received with my peers.
Speaker 2: And yeah, he was there, yeah, really making me feel special,
Speaker 2: like that was a great quality in me, and you
Speaker 2: know he adored that, And so it does. It makes
Speaker 2: you feel unique and special.
Speaker 1: Yes, And often I think at that age where sometimes
Speaker 1: maybe your girlfriends were a little bit in that physical
Speaker 1: you know, losing your downy feathers and getting the awkward
Speaker 1: adolescent feathers. Because you were a dancer, you would have
Speaker 1: had some physical assuredness that maybe they didn't have that
Speaker 1: also may have singled you out from them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, potentially, because it's funny, you know, I felt like
Speaker 2: that at the time, and then you go back to
Speaker 2: school reunions years later and people are.
Speaker 3: Like, oh, I really looked up to you.
Speaker 2: I thought you were fantastic, and you know, you were
Speaker 2: always so confident, and they do they compliment all those
Speaker 2: things that you.
Speaker 3: At the time felt so awkward and uncomfortable about.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, I do think potentially there was an element
Speaker 2: of that where, yeah, I probably did have that natural
Speaker 2: confidence that some other girls my age might not have had,
Speaker 2: and it did make me feel a bit isolated.
Speaker 1: And how did it transition then from these one on
Speaker 1: one sessions and him helping you, complimenting you. You said
Speaker 1: that he did any up visiting you at home.
Speaker 2: Yes, so just before that happened, he started he actually
Speaker 2: met my mom through some basketball games that I used
Speaker 2: to cheerlead for the local basketball team on the weekends,
Speaker 2: and he started going to those with some other teachers
Speaker 2: from school, and that's when he met my mom for
Speaker 2: the first time and developed some sort of friendly relationship
Speaker 2: with her there, so she knew who he was. They
Speaker 2: had had some conversation, nothing too deep, but he was charming, yes, yes,
Speaker 2: very charming. Even Mum remembers thinking what a lovely, lovely
Speaker 2: teacher he was, and very invested in me and my education.
Speaker 3: He through that he.
Speaker 2: Had organized, like for my mom to drive me to
Speaker 2: his house one weekend so he could help me with
Speaker 2: an assignment, and she sat in the car in his
Speaker 2: driveway while I went into his house, and then we
Speaker 2: ended up sitting outside and he spent all this time
Speaker 2: with me. Then he was he'd organized with mum for
Speaker 2: me to have triple jump training with him early morning
Speaker 2: before school, things like that, and so Mum was really
Speaker 2: under the understanding that he was a teacher that was
Speaker 2: just really invested in me and my education and thought
Speaker 2: it was fantastic. But it was all I supposed to
Speaker 2: build that relationship and get closer to us as a family.
Speaker 2: And my grandfather passed away in August of that year,
Speaker 2: which is my mom's father, and he sent Moum flowers
Speaker 2: and a card to the house, you know, obviously empathizing.
Speaker 3: With her, spoke about the fact.
Speaker 2: That he'd lost his mum not that long ago, and
Speaker 2: through that he ended up getting invited to our place
Speaker 2: for dinner one night, and that was kind of the
Speaker 2: start of that, and that became such a regular feature
Speaker 2: our life, was him turning up with a bottle of
Speaker 2: red wine and some card games and music, and we'd
Speaker 2: have dinner and have drinks and he teaches some card games.
Speaker 2: And I think he really took advantage of how vulnerable
Speaker 2: mum was at that time, losing her dad, she was grieving,
Speaker 2: and how vulnerable I was. And yeah, he just became
Speaker 2: a regular feature in our home from that point forward.
Speaker 1: At that point, where was your father in this?
Speaker 2: I had never known my father, so my parents broke
Speaker 2: up while my mom was pregnant, so I didn't know
Speaker 2: him at all. I didn't even know where he was,
Speaker 2: So yeah, he was completely out of the picture.
Speaker 1: I asked that because to then have this male figure
Speaker 1: who's turning up, yes, and takes a natural seat at
Speaker 1: the table. Even though it seemed so strange that it
Speaker 1: was a teacher, it assumed some sort of normalcy and
Speaker 1: filled a role that your mum would have been very
Speaker 1: appreciative of.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 1: Did she have any sense at the time that it
Speaker 1: was strange.
Speaker 2: No, I don't think she thought it was strange. She
Speaker 2: really appreciated his friendship, right. That's one thing that she
Speaker 2: reflects on is Mom didn't have a lot of friends
Speaker 2: at the time, and I think for her it was
Speaker 2: an adult that she could talk to and have adult
Speaker 2: conversations with and talk about her problems. And yeah, I
Speaker 2: think she had no clue that he was interested in
Speaker 2: me and genuinely thought that he was there as her friend, right,
Speaker 2: And you know, I support to her, and yeah, she
Speaker 2: looks back at that. I mean, obviously completely differently now,
Speaker 2: but at the time, yeah, she just really appreciated having
Speaker 2: another grown up to talk to.
Speaker 1: And then at what point did it change? So when
Speaker 1: he would say come to your house, did he ever
Speaker 1: seek you out or was he very careful not to
Speaker 1: do that and just really to build the bond with
Speaker 1: your mom?
Speaker 2: Initially it was, I suppose building that bond, But then
Speaker 2: it did change. He ended up getting suspended from school
Speaker 2: for a number of things. I'm not entirely sure of
Speaker 2: all the details, but yeah, he sort of vanished from
Speaker 2: school one day and I didn't know where he was.
Speaker 2: So this was probably prior to him coming over to
Speaker 2: our house regularly. And another teacher actually came up to
Speaker 2: me at a district sports carnival and handed me a
Speaker 2: piece of paper and said, oh, really wants you to
Speaker 2: come to the beach on the weekend. Here's his number,
Speaker 2: which I did, and that's when he really started sexualizing things.
Speaker 3: Like in the water.
Speaker 2: It became very evident that it wasn't my friendship, it
Speaker 2: was actual romantic interest there. And he ended up kissing
Speaker 2: me on the beach that day. And then because he
Speaker 2: was suspended from school, I was sick one day and
Speaker 2: I sent him a stupid message on my mobile phone,
Speaker 2: some immature text message, and he said, are you not
Speaker 2: at school? And I said no, and he said, oh,
Speaker 2: come over and bring your chicken soup. And that was
Speaker 2: that was when it all changed. So we had obviously
Speaker 2: we were home alone together that day and that's when
Speaker 2: things escalated. And then those those times at home when
Speaker 2: he'd come over when mom was there, he would linger
Speaker 2: after she'd go to bed because Mum was still working
Speaker 2: and had to get up early, and she'd go to
Speaker 2: bed and excuse herself and he would hang around then.
Speaker 2: And yeah, that's that was kind of how that transitioned.
Speaker 3: I suppose.
Speaker 1: So then you what did you think you were to
Speaker 1: him and what did you think the nature of the
Speaker 1: relationship was. So obviously this was you were having seen
Speaker 1: sexual encounters. Now, was it your first sexual experience with him.
Speaker 3: To that level?
Speaker 2: Yes, definitely. I'd had a couple of short term boyfriends,
Speaker 2: as you do at that age, that didn't company went
Speaker 2: near you know that that level. My memories of that
Speaker 2: time is just how hard and fast that came on
Speaker 2: for me. And I think that that's the damaging thing
Speaker 2: about that is, you know, when you're with people your
Speaker 2: own age and you're experiencing all those new things together,
Speaker 2: it's everybody's first, so you know, you're really only doing
Speaker 2: things that you're comfortable with, and it's all very much experimentation.
Speaker 2: But when you're with a man, it just goes like
Speaker 2: one hundred percent straight away. And a lot of the
Speaker 2: things that I was being made to do or experience,
Speaker 2: I just I was in shock. I remember the first
Speaker 2: time he kissed me, he came up behind me. I froze.
Speaker 2: I just went into complete dissociation. I was unresponsive. I
Speaker 2: just didn't move and like looking back, it was just
Speaker 2: a complete fear response, you know, and it just baffles
Speaker 2: me that he would continue when someone is so unresponsive,
Speaker 2: you know, like, yeah, a was scary.
Speaker 1: At the time. How did he address your non responsiveness?
Speaker 1: Did he think that you were shy or you were
Speaker 1: reticent or being coquettish or playing hard to get or
Speaker 1: did he not really focus on that?
Speaker 2: He just ignored it. And that's what I find someone settling.
Speaker 2: It's you know, in this day and age when we
Speaker 2: talk about consent and what consent looks like, yes, and
Speaker 2: someone has to be an active participant in that, and
Speaker 2: I was clearly not.
Speaker 3: I didn't move I just.
Speaker 2: He he almost had to move me, like I was
Speaker 2: some sort of you know, homely dummy. And he just
Speaker 2: didn't even acknowledge my responses or talk about anything. Never
Speaker 2: never had a conversation about my feelings and any of this,
Speaker 2: and what I was comfortable with. It was just he
Speaker 2: wanted what he wanted, and you know, I just felt
Speaker 2: so objectified.
Speaker 1: So you were at this stage, like fifteen, had you
Speaker 1: turned fifteen? Yes?
Speaker 3: I had turned fifteen.
Speaker 1: How old was he?
Speaker 3: He was thirty one?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 3: And then so.
Speaker 1: You're now in a relationship with him. You go back
Speaker 1: to school, I mean he's back at school after the suspension,
Speaker 1: the mystery suspension.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he does eventually come back to school at some
Speaker 2: point at the end of that year.
Speaker 1: And then how does that work?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was interesting. He actually he came up with
Speaker 2: a little code like a physical code that he would
Speaker 2: do to show that he was thinking of me and
Speaker 2: wish that he could express his love properly. So he
Speaker 2: used to he'd say, if he ever scratched his ear, right,
Speaker 2: that was what he was thinking about. So, yeah, he'd
Speaker 2: walk through the school at lunchtime. He'd always make sure
Speaker 2: he walked past where my friend group sad, and you know,
Speaker 2: he'd scratch his ear and you know, we'd have this
Speaker 2: little secret that I'd have a little giggle about and
Speaker 2: feel special and whatnot. But I do remember he was
Speaker 2: pretty clear that we had to be careful from that
Speaker 2: point forward, like especially him coming back after being suspended.
Speaker 2: He was very much in my ear all the time
Speaker 2: about it being a secret and that we'd be in trouble,
Speaker 2: and especially him, and you know, we wouldn't be able
Speaker 2: to see each other again and he wouldn't be able
Speaker 2: to do all these fun things with me and if
Speaker 2: anyone found out. So he really sort of made sure
Speaker 2: that I wasn't going to talk to anyone and distance
Speaker 2: myself from him at school.
Speaker 1: Of this is well we now know is textbook, isn't it.
Speaker 3: It is all of.
Speaker 2: It, it is And you know, when I did start
Speaker 2: reading into grooming and things like that. I was kind
Speaker 2: of gobsmacked initially. I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is
Speaker 2: exactly how it played out for me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the playbook, But what is not in the
Speaker 1: playbook is that this relationship then survived for your remaining
Speaker 1: two years at school, was still a secret all that
Speaker 1: time from your friends, other teachers, your mum who knew.
Speaker 2: So I eventually confessed to my best friend Amanda that
Speaker 2: things had escalated and things were happening between us.
Speaker 3: She was like she knew.
Speaker 2: She was always at me to the point where she
Speaker 2: was threatening our friendship if I didn't if I didn't
Speaker 2: come clean, and obviously you know I didn't. I didn't
Speaker 2: want to lie to her anymore. And it was during
Speaker 2: the Christmas holidays, like between two thousand and two thousand
Speaker 2: and one. She'd come back from a trip to see
Speaker 2: her dad and Sydney, and we were just talking about
Speaker 2: things that we're done with our boyfriend, like with her boyfriend,
Speaker 2: and I ended up coming clean and telling her that,
Speaker 2: you know, I had done stuff, but I swore her
Speaker 2: to secrecy, and we came up with this really silly
Speaker 2: code of we call if ever we wrote about him
Speaker 2: in a letter. We called him Subway for some reason.
Speaker 2: I don't even know how that started. So from that
Speaker 2: point forward I did confide in her a lot about things,
Speaker 2: and it's funny now to look back at our letters
Speaker 2: and see that immaturity.
Speaker 3: I suppose.
Speaker 2: I also confided in Mom after things had escalated. I
Speaker 2: said to her, what had happened?
Speaker 1: How long after did you tell your mom?
Speaker 2: It was before the Christmas holidays of that year, so
Speaker 2: it was the year that things had started.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I ended up confiding in her and said, you know,
Speaker 2: please don't tell anyone. He'll get in trouble and he's
Speaker 2: really special to me, you know, don't say anything. And
Speaker 2: I think Mum was in a lot of shock. I
Speaker 2: don't even remember having much of a conversation with her
Speaker 2: about it. It just kind of, I don't know, it
Speaker 2: got swept under the rug in a sense, I suppose.
Speaker 2: And then he ended up actually telling my mum over
Speaker 2: those Christmas holidays himself. He brought me out to the
Speaker 2: kitchen and said I'm in love with your daughter. I
Speaker 2: really care about her, and then kissed me on the
Speaker 2: lips in front of her. And again Mum was just
Speaker 2: you could tell she didn't know what to say. But
Speaker 2: I think because of that relationship that he'd built up
Speaker 2: with Arson, even my grandma, he ended up going over
Speaker 2: to my grandma's house to help with some renovation type
Speaker 2: things because after my grandfather had died, So he really
Speaker 2: tried hard, you know, infiltrating my whole family, and I
Speaker 2: think by that point when he spoke to Mum about it,
Speaker 2: he was just part of the family already, And in hindsight,
Speaker 2: she regrets everything, you know, she wishes she could go
Speaker 2: back in time and change how she responded to things.
Speaker 2: But you know, Mum was very vulnerable and very manipulated
Speaker 2: through that process as well, so I think she was
Speaker 2: very confused and did what she thought was best at
Speaker 2: that time.
Speaker 1: Well, vulnerability, Vulnerability is the key, isn't it. And you
Speaker 1: were all vulnerable, your grandmother, you, your mom, Yes, and
Speaker 1: that of course is we know, that's that's what predators
Speaker 1: use to pray upon people, is vulnerability. But then to
Speaker 1: your mind, well not to your mind, you were in
Speaker 1: a relationship with him, How did that continue? Did he
Speaker 1: stay at the school as you went through do you
Speaker 1: went through year eleven and twelve?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so he left the school early the next year.
Speaker 2: It wasn't like he was there for the start of
Speaker 2: grade eleven, but at some point he had left and
Speaker 2: got transferred to a school in Brisbane. He obviously remained
Speaker 2: in regular contact with me, and there were times when
Speaker 2: he would come back and visit.
Speaker 1: Because so Brisbane's a couple of hours away from Harvey Bay.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's about three to four hour drive right
Speaker 2: between the two places. He started getting in my ear
Speaker 2: about moving to Brisbane. That was always his big thing was,
Speaker 2: you know, once we moved to Brisbane, then we can
Speaker 2: be a regular couple.
Speaker 3: No one will know us.
Speaker 2: He sort of planted that sea quite early on about
Speaker 2: that being the best thing for us and then the
Speaker 2: secret could be lifted. He even enticed me to go
Speaker 2: by saying that he would get me into the qdoc
Speaker 2: program at Kelvin Grove State High School, which is at
Speaker 2: the time it was quite a reputable dance full time program.
Speaker 2: He said that he was really close with the dance
Speaker 2: teachers there and he'd get me in and it was
Speaker 2: a great opportunity for my dancing. So that obviously was
Speaker 2: so exciting to me. And it was three quarters of
Speaker 2: the way through grade eleven, I decided to leave and
Speaker 2: move and it was very last minute. I had people that,
Speaker 2: like my dance teacher, didn't even know until I'd gone.
Speaker 2: And I lived with my uncle and nannie in Brisbane
Speaker 2: for about six months while Mom stayed in Harvey Bay
Speaker 2: to sell the house and you know, sort out all
Speaker 2: those loose ends. And turns out he never did actually
Speaker 2: try and get me into that school at all, Like
Speaker 2: it was just it was just all talked to to
Speaker 2: get me to move. And yeah, it wasn't even once
Speaker 2: I'd moved there, there was no more conversation about that.
Speaker 2: And I just went to a normal, regular high school
Speaker 2: and finished year twelve there.
Speaker 1: Stay with us. Sarah reflects on her early experiences and
Speaker 1: the long road that led her to question everything she
Speaker 1: thought she knew about trust and love. So you've now moved,
Speaker 1: so you've left Amanda and whatever friendship group you had.
Speaker 1: Your mum's now relocated, so you're all the more reliant
Speaker 1: on him for all your kind of emotional needs.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he once I moved to Brisbane, he was spending
Speaker 2: all of his time with me. I remember being difficult
Speaker 2: to make new friendships at my new school because I'd
Speaker 2: always have to come up with reasons why I couldn't
Speaker 2: hang out with them or go to the parties things
Speaker 2: like that, because you know, he didn't like me going
Speaker 2: to things like parties and that he used to get
Speaker 2: a little bit.
Speaker 3: Jealous.
Speaker 2: I suppose he started getting in my ear around that
Speaker 2: time about how I'm eventually going to leave him because
Speaker 2: I'll realize he's too old and things like that, and
Speaker 2: started making me feel really guilty about wanting to hang
Speaker 2: out with people my own age. So I did really struggle.
Speaker 2: I supposed to make strong friendships at my new school,
Speaker 2: so I did rely on him a lot and was
Speaker 2: spending all of my time with him.
Speaker 1: You know how in schools particularly and teenagers have the
Speaker 1: most like effective grapevine of anybody. Were there any rumors
Speaker 1: at your new school or was anyone kind of looking
Speaker 1: as scance or these stories like you know, Sarah has
Speaker 1: got a much older boyfriend.
Speaker 2: There weren't really any rumors because I was pretty good
Speaker 2: at not really talking about that side of things, and
Speaker 2: I think because I was a new student, it was
Speaker 2: easier to be more secret about that than the people
Speaker 2: that i'd none for most of my life, so you know,
Speaker 2: they just accepted I suppose that I was a little
Speaker 2: bit standoffish and not as sociable as some of the
Speaker 2: other kids. But I remember actually coming clean to the
Speaker 2: friend group that I did have it at my new school,
Speaker 2: and it must have been just prior to my eighteenth birthday.
Speaker 2: And yeah, there was a lot of shock, that's for sure,
Speaker 2: and I don't think they really knew how to take it,
Speaker 2: but it was It wasn't well received, and I remember
Speaker 2: my male group of friends that I had at school,
Speaker 2: they reacted really badly. They got really angry about it
Speaker 2: and was sort of telling me that it's so wrong
Speaker 2: and disgusting and he shouldn't be doing like They were
Speaker 2: really protective and got quite mad about it.
Speaker 1: Oh that's interesting, isn't it. So they were sort of
Speaker 1: kind of more territorial about you and what was happening
Speaker 1: to you than your girlfriends at that time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel it was more of the boys that
Speaker 2: got up on edge about it, and it was kind
Speaker 2: of that was the catalyst for Paul eventually saying to me, Oh,
Speaker 2: I think we should we should cool this off because
Speaker 2: you know, I'm clearly too old. Few people are never
Speaker 2: going to accept us. Look at the way your friends reacted,
Speaker 2: But yeah, it is interesting that it sort of was
Speaker 2: the males around me at that time that had a
Speaker 2: problem with it. But yeah, my girlfriends just they were
Speaker 2: shocked and they did think it was weird, yes, but
Speaker 2: they didn't react in the same sort of angry way,
Speaker 2: I suppose.
Speaker 1: So then Paul suggested this period of calling off, which
Speaker 1: would have been I imagine devastating for you.
Speaker 2: It was because for me, I thought, you know, we've
Speaker 2: gotten through all this adversity of all these years where
Speaker 2: it had to be this giant secret, and he'd convinced
Speaker 2: me to move to a whole nother town and separate
Speaker 2: myself from everyone, and for this premise that we could
Speaker 2: finally be in the open together openly, and then he's
Speaker 2: cooling it off, and I felt like the rug had
Speaker 2: been completely pulled from underneath me. It was one of
Speaker 2: the most devastating times in my life. I was so
Speaker 2: confused because he always had said, you know, you're my soulmate,
Speaker 2: you are my you know you are the one, and
Speaker 2: that all just came crashing down in an instant.
Speaker 3: It was. It was really difficult, but.
Speaker 1: You got through that period. What happened that you went
Speaker 1: from him saying that things needed to cool down to
Speaker 1: you two actually getting married.
Speaker 2: So even though he had I suppose, like broke it
Speaker 2: off with me officially, he remained in touch with me
Speaker 2: and would regularly still come over, and you know, we
Speaker 2: maintained a sexual relationship even though we had broken up.
Speaker 2: But again, it sort of became the secret because he
Speaker 2: eventually got engaged. He was dating a student teacher from
Speaker 2: his current school, and they ended up getting engaged, but
Speaker 2: he was still seeing me throughout that whole theme, but saying,
Speaker 2: you know, I just she's nothing like you. Every time
Speaker 2: I'm with her, I just wish I was with you,
Speaker 2: you know, saying all this nonsense, I suppose to keep
Speaker 2: me feeding me the bread crumbs.
Speaker 3: I guess. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So I was never really out of the picture and
Speaker 2: away from him and away from his manipulation. So one
Speaker 2: day I remember getting a phone call from him while
Speaker 2: I was at work, and it said that he needed
Speaker 2: to meet up with me because he was leaving his fiance.
Speaker 2: And I actually a part of me was thinking, don't go,
Speaker 2: don't go. I think I knew a little bit that
Speaker 2: things were wrong, but he gave me this big, sob
Speaker 2: story on the phone about you know, being suicidal and whatnot.
Speaker 2: And I met him at the Qui two Sports stadium.
Speaker 2: He was at some school sports event, and he came
Speaker 2: and sat in my car and told me in detail
Speaker 2: about how he had tried to commit suicide and that
Speaker 2: his relationship with her was really abusive and that he
Speaker 2: just really missed me this whole time and he just
Speaker 2: wanted to be with me again. And I just remember
Speaker 2: it was horrible because he explained in great detail about
Speaker 2: what it was like to actually try and commit suicide,
Speaker 2: like how it felt, and that's obviously really devastating to
Speaker 2: hear about anybody, So that really affected me. And he
Speaker 2: asked whether he could come back to my house that
Speaker 2: day after he had finished, and I said sure and
Speaker 2: gave him my new address and he came over and
Speaker 2: before I knew it, he'd sort of his way into
Speaker 2: the house. I was living with my mum. We just
Speaker 2: had a rental, and I remember actually he just started
Speaker 2: moving his stuff into our house. Mom came home from
Speaker 2: work one day and was just completely shocked because she's like,
Speaker 2: what is all this stuff? And I said, oh, Paul's
Speaker 2: moving in. He's he's had a hard time with you know,
Speaker 2: he's broken it off, and you know, he wants to
Speaker 2: just stay here until he gets on his feet, and
Speaker 2: he just didn't leave from that point. And then I, yeah,
Speaker 2: we ended up getting pregnant, so that was kind of
Speaker 2: what led to that marriage.
Speaker 1: So how old are you now at this point?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was twenty, so I just turned twenty that year, and.
Speaker 1: So then the natural progression was seen to be that
Speaker 1: you would get married. Whose idea was.
Speaker 2: That, Yeah, it was his. But at the same time
Speaker 2: he was trying to play me off against all these
Speaker 2: other women that he had in his life. It was
Speaker 2: really confusing. He told me he had actual conversations with
Speaker 2: me where he'd be like, I don't know what to do,
Speaker 2: whether to be with you, whether to be with this person,
Speaker 2: or whether to be with this other person. You know,
Speaker 2: an idle situation. I'd like to be with you, but
Speaker 2: be technically married. It was just in hindsight, as a
Speaker 2: grown woman, I'd look at that and just it's red
Speaker 2: flags everywhere. Sure, but I felt so desperate to prove myself.
Speaker 1: But here's the thing, Sarah, because you, in many ways,
Speaker 1: I imagine, though you may have had the chron and
Speaker 1: logical years, you weren't a grown woman, because a lot
Speaker 1: of your relationship with him must have been cemented as
Speaker 1: a fourteen year old. Yes, and because he's done that
Speaker 1: thing of pulling away, so you know how it is
Speaker 1: to be without him when you're so reliant on him.
Speaker 1: Then when he comes back, you're like, I've got the prize,
Speaker 1: I've got a chance of getting the golden ring.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was very much like that. And yeah, it's
Speaker 2: interesting that you highlight about sort of being stuck in
Speaker 2: that real adolescent mindset, and I feel like that was
Speaker 2: exactly how it played out for our whole marriage. I
Speaker 2: never felt like I really grew into a woman, or
Speaker 2: when I tried to, that's when the big problems started.
Speaker 2: You know, all the crucks in our relationship were forming because.
Speaker 1: When you would try to assert yourself.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess I started, you know, after i'd had
Speaker 2: we had two children, and I was starting to get
Speaker 2: into my mid twenties. I suppose I started talking to
Speaker 2: other women. I had started making other mom friends. I
Speaker 2: suppose because when I was young, none of my friends
Speaker 2: were in marriages with children that you know, I was
Speaker 2: sort of the only one. I didn't have any anyone
Speaker 2: to talk to about what marriage is like. And it
Speaker 2: wasn't until I started making other mum friends who were
Speaker 2: fair bit older than me that I started to realize
Speaker 2: that things probably won't write and I wasn't in a
Speaker 2: normal marriage, and so I did start to grow up
Speaker 2: a little bit and try and have my own voice.
Speaker 2: And yeah, the cracks really started forming them because that
Speaker 2: wasn't well received. I used to get comments all the
Speaker 2: time that I changed and that he wishes that he
Speaker 2: really misses the young girl that would sit like a
Speaker 2: puppy at the front door waiting for him to get home.
Speaker 2: And I just thought, why would you actually want that, Like,
Speaker 2: don't you want a woman to be with?
Speaker 1: When you would tell your new mum friends your origin story,
Speaker 1: did you edit it or what did you share with them?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I initially when I would tell people how we met,
Speaker 2: i'd make up some story like we met at university
Speaker 2: or something that you know, I was young, but not
Speaker 2: as young as I was. I suppose I still really
Speaker 2: protected that secret of his. You know, even when I
Speaker 2: started eventually going to counseling, I wasn't honest with my
Speaker 2: psychologist at that time. It was just really drilled into
Speaker 2: me about never telling anyone even at my wedding, there
Speaker 2: were strict instructions that no one was to talk about
Speaker 2: how we met.
Speaker 1: Well, who was at your wedding, obviously, were there were
Speaker 1: no friends from your past.
Speaker 2: I had a couple of friends from it, like I
Speaker 2: have my best friend Amanda there right, And then I
Speaker 2: had another friend of mine, the one that actually it
Speaker 2: first introduced me to him. Oh, he always really liked her,
Speaker 2: so he was actually his suggestion to invite her. They
Speaker 2: were probably the only friends of mine that were there
Speaker 2: from back in the Harvey Bay days. All my other
Speaker 2: friends that were in attendance where people I'd met in Brisbane.
Speaker 1: And who did he bring? Who was on his side
Speaker 1: of the aisle?
Speaker 2: He had his family, He's got three brothers, his dad
Speaker 2: and stepmom were there, and he had a table full
Speaker 2: of friends that These were all people I'd never met,
Speaker 2: by the way, even his family. I'd met his dad
Speaker 2: once when I was seventeen. We were on our way
Speaker 2: to some event and we stopped in. But other than that,
Speaker 2: I had never seen these people until the day before
Speaker 2: my wedding, and all of his friends the day of
Speaker 2: the wedding, so I felt so uncomfortable. It was such
Speaker 2: a weird experience to just I felt like I was
Speaker 2: just copied and pasted into his life in a way,
Speaker 2: like I just existed one day. But yeah, I was telling,
Speaker 2: you know, my friends, like you can't say anything to
Speaker 2: anyone about how we met. You know, this is a secret.
Speaker 2: His family don't know.
Speaker 1: So I don't understand his brothers and his parents didn't
Speaker 1: know how you'd meet.
Speaker 2: No, I don't even know if when they even found
Speaker 2: out about me, to be honest, right, his dad, I mean, yeah,
Speaker 2: as I said, I met him, we went dropped into
Speaker 2: his house the end of grade twelve, But I don't
Speaker 2: know if he remembers that would or knew that that
Speaker 2: was the same person, because you know the years, two
Speaker 2: years had gone by since then.
Speaker 3: Gude.
Speaker 1: That makes the wedding speeches difficult, doesn't it. Yeah, a
Speaker 1: big part of weddings normally is the origin story.
Speaker 2: Yes exactly. I forget who actually made a speech. I
Speaker 2: know Amanda spoke on my behalf, and a couple of
Speaker 2: my other girlfriends said something, but I think Paul might
Speaker 2: have been the only one who spoke on his side,
Speaker 2: maybe his brother, But again, yeah, it would have been
Speaker 2: so surface level stuff because he knew nothing about me.
Speaker 1: Don't go anywhere. Because after the break, Sarah talks about
Speaker 1: the moment she found the courage to speak out and
Speaker 1: how that decision changed the course of her life. You
Speaker 1: know what's interesting is you mentioned earlier going to see
Speaker 1: a counselor so within you, even in this period in
Speaker 1: which really he's been really the only sun and rain
Speaker 1: that's been falling upon you, a little seed of something
Speaker 1: has been germinating within you that makes you seek out
Speaker 1: counseling in the first place.
Speaker 2: What was that, Well, it was actually something completely random
Speaker 2: that got me in the door of counseling, and in hindsight,
Speaker 2: I'm so glad it happened. I was actually in a
Speaker 2: car accident and it was quite bad, and I got
Speaker 2: hit by a truck and I ended up struggling. I
Speaker 2: guess to get in a car for a little while
Speaker 2: after that, So I went to seek out counseling to deal.
Speaker 1: With because otherwise he would have been very anti you
Speaker 1: going to capt.
Speaker 2: Yes, one hundred percent, and he ended up stopping me.
Speaker 2: So when I went to this woman, it was probably
Speaker 2: within the first session, maybe the second, she started directing
Speaker 2: the questioning more towards my relationship and I was wondering
Speaker 2: why she kept bringing that up and not the accident.
Speaker 2: And then yeah, she slips me a couple pieces of
Speaker 2: paper on domestic violence and starts saying, you know, I
Speaker 2: don't think you're in a healthy marriage. I do believe that,
Speaker 2: you know, you're suffering a few of these things.
Speaker 3: And I was.
Speaker 2: Thought, oh, that's really strange, really like, I didn't know
Speaker 2: how to take that. And the first thing I did
Speaker 2: when I left is went home and talked to him
Speaker 2: about it. And that's just how naive I was, I
Speaker 2: suppose and young. I just went, oh, this is what
Speaker 2: the psychologist just told me. What do you think you know?
Speaker 3: And wanted his person tip of it.
Speaker 2: What was his perspective by the way, Oh, he instantly
Speaker 2: was dismissing it. And you know that's rubbish. She's just toxic.
Speaker 2: She has no idea what she's talking about. Do not
Speaker 2: go there ever again, you know. So I quickly asked
Speaker 2: those sessions. I think I only had a you know
Speaker 2: two with her and never went back. But it did
Speaker 2: plant a seed. I think it was the first time
Speaker 2: that I went, you know, maybe there is something not
Speaker 2: quite right. And then when you start hearing it from
Speaker 2: you know, the other the other moms and things like that.
Speaker 2: It starts to get you really thinking about things.
Speaker 1: And so what period of time had elapsed before you
Speaker 1: did you resume counseling at some point?
Speaker 2: Yes, I ended up going back to counseling sometime towards
Speaker 2: the end of our relationship. He made me believe that
Speaker 2: I had anger problems, so I thought, I'll go to
Speaker 2: see a psychologist and get that sorted out. And I
Speaker 2: saw this a different psychologist, and she started then saying
Speaker 2: the same things as the first one and going, I
Speaker 2: don't think you have a problem. I think you know
Speaker 2: you're a victim here. But I still wasn't honest with
Speaker 2: how the relationship started, so this is just pure we're
Speaker 2: based on everything after that.
Speaker 1: And how long had you been married at this point?
Speaker 2: This would have been maybe five or six years into
Speaker 2: the marriage, I'd say, like it was getting towards the end.
Speaker 2: And then I stopped going to her again, I think
Speaker 2: because she was saying all the same things as the
Speaker 2: first one. And these people aren't listening to me. I
Speaker 2: have a problem. They need to fix me. That was
Speaker 2: my mindset. And then I saw I started seeing another psychologist,
Speaker 2: probably the year that I ended up leaving him, and
Speaker 2: I still wasn't honest with how the relationship started, but
Speaker 2: I started mapping out had a real plan about I
Speaker 2: think I had realized how bad the relationship was, and
Speaker 2: i'd become aware that it was not healthy for me
Speaker 2: and mapped out a plan with him.
Speaker 1: At what point did you realize that it's not just
Speaker 1: a matter of it being a bad relationship, but the
Speaker 1: fact that the relationship could never be good because of
Speaker 1: how it had begun and how you were brought to it.
Speaker 1: At what point did those pieces click together? I imagine that
Speaker 1: took a long time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it took a really long time, and I probably
Speaker 2: didn't fully grasp that until after we separated and I
Speaker 2: had some space from him, and I started really taking
Speaker 2: note about I was reading a lot, I was informing
Speaker 2: myself about things, I was talking to people a lot more.
Speaker 3: I was probably felt like I could be.
Speaker 2: More honest about how my relationship started, which opened up
Speaker 2: a lot more conversation with people. And it was probably
Speaker 2: in those first few years after leaving him that I
Speaker 2: realized what had actually happened to me and that the
Speaker 2: whole thing was just it was just manipulation. And abuse
Speaker 2: the whole time. And yeah, as you say, a relationship
Speaker 2: that starts like that can only continue like that. It
Speaker 2: can't it can't change.
Speaker 1: How was he? And I just want to point out
Speaker 1: to our listeners that you've got a family court ruling.
Speaker 1: Obviously you don't want to discuss in detail anything that
Speaker 1: would jeopardize anything there. But how was he when you
Speaker 1: started to grow into yourself, when you were having these realizations.
Speaker 1: How was he?
Speaker 2: I think I actually think I tried to reach out
Speaker 2: to him and tell him how I actually felt and that,
Speaker 2: you know, tell him what he did was really wrong
Speaker 2: and how damaging it has been to me. I think
Speaker 2: I attempted that once and he quickly shot it down
Speaker 2: and sort of turned it into the fact that it
Speaker 2: was me who instigated it all and in the beginning,
Speaker 2: and I basically forced myself on him, like he was
Speaker 2: really trying hard to get me to think that it
Speaker 2: was my fault that it happened, and so there was
Speaker 2: no accountability or any responsibility taken for that. And yeah,
Speaker 2: that was pretty devastating, because I honestly think if you
Speaker 2: just said sorry, I messed up, that was wrong, I
Speaker 2: think I would have been able to process that a
Speaker 2: lot more and move on with my life. But I
Speaker 2: think it just became this constant power struggle, you know,
Speaker 2: to regain that.
Speaker 1: It's interesting though, because you say move on with your life,
Speaker 1: but even though you may have been unaware of it,
Speaker 1: you were moving on with your life because the work
Speaker 1: that you started to do, which I imagine was beyond painful,
Speaker 1: led you to going to the police.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like, that's.
Speaker 1: A remarkable Sarah. That's a remarkable isn't it. That is
Speaker 1: properly someone who's very different from the girl who was
Speaker 1: back here. Yeah, or that was the little seed inside
Speaker 1: that girl.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it was incredibly hard for me to make
Speaker 2: the steps to go to police. I un denied about
Speaker 2: it for a long while, like years. It wasn't a
Speaker 2: quick decision for me. I'm very, very blessed to have
Speaker 2: Amanda by my side. She's always been my biggest advocate
Speaker 2: and has had a belief in me that I had
Speaker 2: the strength to do that, and almost feel like in
Speaker 2: some way she kicked me in the pants and so
Speaker 2: get to the police, you know. But it was about
Speaker 2: three and a half years after I'd left him that
Speaker 2: I was sitting in Amanda's kitchen with her one day
Speaker 2: and we'd been talking about it, and I'd been getting
Speaker 2: closer and closer I suppose to wanting to go and
Speaker 2: tell somebody, and she said, why don't we just get them.
Speaker 2: We'll call them and get them to come here. Then
Speaker 2: it's less confronting, and I was like, okay. So she
Speaker 2: rings the police for me and explains the situation, and
Speaker 2: they said they were going to send a unit out
Speaker 2: to her house, but we quickly got a phone call
Speaker 2: back and they wanted us to go into the police
Speaker 2: because just because of the sensitive nature of it, not
Speaker 2: all officers may be equipped to deal with it. So
Speaker 2: we went into the police station and then got sent
Speaker 2: to the CIB at Fernie Grove, and that's when I
Speaker 2: met Detective Julia for the first time and sat down
Speaker 2: with her and just floated a bunch of my story.
Speaker 2: She's probably the first person that I just was honest with,
Speaker 2: just laid it all out there.
Speaker 1: How was that, by the way, How did how did
Speaker 1: that feel to you? For the first time, to tell
Speaker 1: the truth?
Speaker 2: It was scary because I knew once I band aid off,
Speaker 2: there's no gone back, you know, But it was just
Speaker 2: like a huge weight had been lifted, and mostly to
Speaker 2: the way that she received that information. I think helped
Speaker 2: me feel that way, because you know, I had had
Speaker 2: a lot of instances throughout, you know, my separation where
Speaker 2: I felt like I had a lot of slammed doors
Speaker 2: in my face and wasn't getting anywhere within the institutions
Speaker 2: and the systems that are available for.
Speaker 1: People because people wanted to minimize what had happened or
Speaker 1: it was too complex for them to entertain.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, you know, it is such a complex
Speaker 2: situation when you know, I think a lot of people
Speaker 2: saw it and since that there was a marriage there,
Speaker 2: so it couldn't have been that bad. And I just
Speaker 2: felt like no one was looking at the bigger picture
Speaker 2: or had an understanding of what I had gone through,
Speaker 2: and I found it really difficult to get protection in
Speaker 2: place and to get help. I suppose, so to have
Speaker 2: her sit there and just listen and receive that and
Speaker 2: believe me and tell me that she's going to do
Speaker 2: something with that information, I walked out of there just,
Speaker 2: I don't know, speechless, Like I don't think even at
Speaker 2: that point I ever thought that it would progress past that.
Speaker 2: I didn't think it would that, you know, I told
Speaker 2: the truth. I'd said my story to someone and it
Speaker 2: was received and was huge.
Speaker 1: And then so Detective Julia led you through the process. Then.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so she got back in contact with me to
Speaker 2: come in and make a formal statement. So when I
Speaker 2: first sat down with her, it was more just a
Speaker 2: general conversation where she got the gist of what had happened,
Speaker 2: and she'd obviously gone away and spoken to her superiors
Speaker 2: or whatnot, and so we sat down. We had a
Speaker 2: couple of sessions of going through my statement. It was
Speaker 2: I think the first time I sat down there were
Speaker 2: two four hour blocks. It was about eight hours in total,
Speaker 2: and then I had to go back a second time
Speaker 2: and do a second statement. Yeah, so she really got
Speaker 2: the ball rolling, I suppose, And you know, I still
Speaker 2: can't believe that that she was able to get it
Speaker 2: as far as it went to be honest.
Speaker 1: Yes, how far it went was it went to court, yes,
Speaker 1: and that was another ordeal.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So the trial was last year, just every year ago.
Speaker 2: So I first made that statement the beginning of twenty eighteen.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: He wasn't charged until twenty twenty wow, and then didn't
Speaker 2: go to trial until twenty twenty four. So it is
Speaker 2: a very very long process.
Speaker 1: In the trial. I mean you really the evolution of you,
Speaker 1: it feels like, continued throughout the trial in your was
Speaker 1: it a victim impact statement where you addressed the court
Speaker 1: and you spoke so not only eloquently, but the points
Speaker 1: that you raised were quite extraordinary ones because I gathered
Speaker 1: that in the case they were focusing on whether you
Speaker 1: were fifteen or whether you were sixteen. Yeah.
Speaker 2: The whole thing was this argument over a six month
Speaker 2: period basically, so there was no denial of a relationship,
Speaker 2: but they were, you know, defense were arguing that the
Speaker 2: relationship started when I was sixteen as opposed to fifteen.
Speaker 1: In which case it would not have been illegal, no,
Speaker 1: even though he still had a duty of care to you.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So Queensland's been very far behind with the special care laws.
Speaker 2: A lot of the other states have implemented special care
Speaker 2: laws years ago, which basically protect children up to the
Speaker 2: age of you know, sixteen seventeen when they're with people
Speaker 2: in positions of power, you know, like teachers, coaches, doctors,
Speaker 2: all that kind of stuff. Queensland have only just instigated
Speaker 2: laws to that effect. I think towards the end of
Speaker 2: last year was.
Speaker 1: That as a result of your case.
Speaker 2: Not directly mine. I think it's just become such a
Speaker 2: common thing. I feel like every time I'm on Facebook
Speaker 2: or something, I'm seeing articles of very similar stories of
Speaker 2: girls who have been groomed into these relationships from a
Speaker 2: similar age. And yeah, I think collectively, there's been so
Speaker 2: much of it happening that people have started advocating for
Speaker 2: those changes.
Speaker 3: So thankfully, finally we do have those laws.
Speaker 1: Now, you were face to face in court with Paul Yeap,
Speaker 1: and how was that?
Speaker 3: It was hard?
Speaker 2: Obviously I didn't look at him. I didn't want to
Speaker 2: look at him. I was allowed to have a support
Speaker 2: person with me. But what I didn't realize was that
Speaker 2: defense actually can vet your support person and prevent them
Speaker 2: from coming in, which I feel like defeats the purpose
Speaker 2: of even having a support person in the first place.
Speaker 2: So the night before I was meant to appear in
Speaker 2: to give my evidence, it was quite late at night,
Speaker 2: I was in bed. I get a phone call from
Speaker 2: the DPP saying that Defense have denied the support person
Speaker 2: I put forward, And I said, can they do that?
Speaker 2: And she said, yeah, they can, but they haven't given
Speaker 2: us a reason.
Speaker 1: Why do they have to give a reason.
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know if they have to give a
Speaker 2: reason or whether they just hadn't said it, because I
Speaker 2: was like, what reason is it that my friend can't
Speaker 2: come in? Because it was a friend that I'd made
Speaker 2: since moving to Brisbane, so she wasn't around in the
Speaker 2: time of the offense anyway, she said, oh, can you
Speaker 2: try and find somebody else? So I organized another friend
Speaker 2: to come, and both of these friends of mine actually
Speaker 2: came with me the next morning, so they were both there.
Speaker 2: Found out that morning that the other friend was also denied. Oh,
Speaker 2: and I said, why this doesn't make sense, and it
Speaker 2: was because they might be called up to give evidence themselves.
Speaker 2: And I'm thinking for what reason. They weren't even from
Speaker 2: Harvey Bay, they weren't around, Like what questioning could they
Speaker 2: possible we be needed for? So I ended up having
Speaker 2: to go in initially by myself without a support person
Speaker 2: because obviously this had happened so last minute. Prior to
Speaker 2: going in, I didn't have anyone else because a lot
Speaker 2: of other people that I had were already subpoena to
Speaker 2: give evidence. So my friends are madly on the phone
Speaker 2: trying to get somebody to come. Luckily, my friend's mum
Speaker 2: was able to come a bit later on in the day,
Speaker 2: so she wandered in sometime while I was getting cross examined.
Speaker 1: So she came as like just someone sitting in the course.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's just someone that can just sit there
Speaker 2: so that you feel supported, you can look at them
Speaker 2: for that connection and stuff, which it was nice to
Speaker 2: have someone in there. It's such a confronting experience, and
Speaker 2: it just I was completely gobsmacked that I had to
Speaker 2: go in by myself because they preach about having all
Speaker 2: of these special considerations for victims of these crimes, one
Speaker 2: being support person that then no one ever tells you
Speaker 2: that the perpetrator can actually block those people from being
Speaker 2: there for you. So I didn't actually have a support
Speaker 2: person for you know, for half of half of that
Speaker 2: my evidence.
Speaker 1: How long was the trial, by the way.
Speaker 2: It went for the four weeks, over the full five days.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then he was sentenced.
Speaker 2: Yes, so he was found guilty of five charges actually
Speaker 2: five charges I think of indecent treatment of a child
Speaker 2: and one charge of maintaining a relationship with a child,
Speaker 2: and then was sentenced to two and a half years
Speaker 2: but suspended, so one year, three month suspended sentence, so
Speaker 2: he only has to serve half of.
Speaker 1: It, right, so he's in jail now.
Speaker 3: He is still in jail at the moment.
Speaker 1: Yes, So how did that feel? Because that does seem
Speaker 1: like an extremely light sentence. However, it also amazing that
Speaker 1: he got sentenced, knowing what we know about the legal
Speaker 1: process and the treatment of yeah, young women.
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2: The fact that it even made it a trial was crazy,
Speaker 2: because especially these historical cases, a lot of them don't
Speaker 2: even get that far. So the fact that we got
Speaker 2: a trial was enormous. But yeah, that being said, the
Speaker 2: sentencing was still I feel quite light considering what he'd done,
Speaker 2: especially in a position of power that he was in,
Speaker 2: where he's literally in charge of caring, you know, being
Speaker 2: a caretaker for a child.
Speaker 1: People often speak about the feeling of affirmation when there
Speaker 1: is a sentencing and when somebody is found guilty of
Speaker 1: something because for all those years where you were convinced
Speaker 1: by the external force of him that it was you
Speaker 1: and that there was nothing wrong. How did it feel
Speaker 1: when he was sentenced?
Speaker 3: We can't put in words.
Speaker 2: It was more when I heard that they'd found him
Speaker 2: guilty that I can't explain to you the feeling that
Speaker 2: came over me. It was just such emotion. I just
Speaker 2: I was buling my eyes out. I actually didn't go
Speaker 2: into the courtroom initially because I didn't want to be
Speaker 2: in there around other people. If he was found not
Speaker 2: guilty of everything, I didn't want to have. I didn't
Speaker 2: want to experience that in front of people. So I said, oh,
Speaker 2: I might just stay in the side room, and my
Speaker 2: friend said, well, I'll text you through the verdicts as
Speaker 2: they come through. And the very first text I get
Speaker 2: was guilty. Wow, and I just couldn't believe. I leaped
Speaker 2: up off my chair. I shoved my baby. I just
Speaker 2: because I just had a baby in February last year.
Speaker 2: So I shoved my baby to somebody and then raced
Speaker 2: in because I had to hear the rest. And yeah,
Speaker 2: there was only I think two charges that were not guilty.
Speaker 2: But I was just overcome by emotion and I was
Speaker 2: just so I was openly sobbing. I just it was
Speaker 2: I've never been that emotional in my life. I couldn't
Speaker 2: control it, but it was so completely validating to have,
Speaker 2: you know, they it's.
Speaker 3: Also very powerful.
Speaker 2: They the juries stand up all in a like one
Speaker 2: giant line, right, and the judge will get one person
Speaker 2: to read the verdict of each charge and then they
Speaker 2: all have to repeat it and it goes on and
Speaker 2: on and on. So you've sort of got twelve people
Speaker 2: there facing you in this line saying you know, guilty,
Speaker 2: and a few of them were making eye contact with
Speaker 2: me and sort of nodding at me like they were
Speaker 2: there and supporting me and what i'd gone through, like
Speaker 2: they understood it and that they had seen you yes,
Speaker 2: And that was incredibly powerful. It just I can't explain
Speaker 2: what that felt like. I don't have the words, but yeah, incredible.
Speaker 1: How is your life now?
Speaker 3: It's good, It's on its way.
Speaker 2: You know. I'm still still receiving counseling for everything. There's
Speaker 2: a lot to unpack, there's a lot of years. I
Speaker 2: think it'll be something that I'm doing for quite some time.
Speaker 2: But I've sort of reached the point now where I
Speaker 2: feel like it's time to have a voice and come
Speaker 2: forward with my story because I'm very passionate.
Speaker 1: And you're now doing work on behalf of other children.
Speaker 2: So yeah, So just this year, I've started my own organization,
Speaker 2: step In for Kids, basically coming up with educational programs
Speaker 2: that I can deliver in school settings for educators, students,
Speaker 2: you know, even just community members as well, just to
Speaker 2: educate them on the science of grooming what that actually
Speaker 2: looks like, especially in those teenage years. I think a
Speaker 2: lot of people forget how vulnerable teenagers are. You know
Speaker 2: a lot of the criticisms I've faced were that but
Speaker 2: you were fifteen, you know, like basically a grown up. Yes,
Speaker 2: but you're still a child, Like your brain is still
Speaker 2: developing into your mid twenties, and especially when you're dealing
Speaker 2: with these people in positions of power.
Speaker 1: I want to read you something. I mean, these are
Speaker 1: your own words. It's from a letter you wrote to
Speaker 1: The Australian. I think silenced and dismissed how the legal
Speaker 1: system minimizes women's trauma and referring to the trial, you
Speaker 1: said this. Throughout the trial, the narrative portrayed the relationship
Speaker 1: as a misguided love affair, attributing romantic feelings from my abuser,
Speaker 1: and portrayed me as an obsessive teenager with an infatuation
Speaker 1: to justify the perpetrator's actions. It was distressing to bear
Speaker 1: the blame as a child under the age of consent.
Speaker 1: I was exactly that a child. By the time I
Speaker 1: turned sixteen, groomy had ensnared me completely. There's very little
Speaker 1: acknowledgment of that when it comes to abuses of power
Speaker 1: like this, that a girl can be, in this case,
Speaker 1: judged for maybe having a crush on someone who should
Speaker 1: be a person, a paternal figure, who should be actually
Speaker 1: someone that you can feel like that about, and they're
Speaker 1: the adult, and they're like, that's okay, I will not
Speaker 1: abuse that power. You have changed, Sarah Copp things, not
Speaker 1: only for yourself, but for everyone who will hear your
Speaker 1: story and for the young women, the girls slash, young
Speaker 1: women who find themselves in positions as well that they
Speaker 1: shouldn't necessarily be put in. Yeah, your strength is formidable.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do hope I can make a difference in
Speaker 2: someone's life, and even if that is anyone else out
Speaker 2: there that has gone through something similar that might still
Speaker 2: be keeping that secret and isn't sure if they're ready
Speaker 2: to come forward, Like if I can give someone the
Speaker 2: strength to make that first step and know that there
Speaker 2: are people out there that will listen and believe you,
Speaker 2: and you know, a chance to get justice, That's what
Speaker 2: it's all about. That's only hope that I can help
Speaker 2: people in that way.
Speaker 1: When you were sharing your story with me, it made
Speaker 1: me so angry that I felt like my eyes could
Speaker 1: pop out pop out of my skull. It was deeply
Speaker 1: wrong what happened to you. But the best thing you
Speaker 1: can do in life when something you have been wronged
Speaker 1: is to make it right on behalf of the girl
Speaker 1: that you were and the woman that you are. And
Speaker 1: my wish for you, and I'm sure that all our
Speaker 1: listeners will share it with me, is that you continue
Speaker 1: to dance. You really deserve to dance.
Speaker 3: Thank you make me emotional.
Speaker 1: Well, you've made me emotional.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I appreciate that. I think dance will always be
Speaker 2: in me.
Speaker 1: Well, you know when you were talking about when you
Speaker 1: were a teenager and how you were so exuberant and
Speaker 1: you thought you were too much. I think we'd all
Speaker 1: like to say that too much again.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think you can get the dance out
Speaker 2: of me, that's for sure. I'm currently a dance teacher,
Speaker 2: so I'm passing that on to the next generation.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for sharing yourself with us, and
Speaker 1: best of luck to you. Your life is going to
Speaker 1: blossom like a flower.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much, and you know I appreciate you
Speaker 2: having me on here so that I can share my story.
Speaker 3: So yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Sarah Copp's story today. Her
Speaker 1: journey is heartbreaking, yes, but it also is such a
Speaker 1: profound testament to courage and the power of taking action
Speaker 1: even when you feel at your weakest. Sarah's work with
Speaker 1: step In for Kids is changing lives, protecting children, and
Speaker 1: giving survivors a voice. She's proof that even from the
Speaker 1: darkest experiences, hope and change can emerge, and that courage
Speaker 1: isn't the absence of fear, but the determination to act
Speaker 1: despite it. I hope this conversation leaves you reflecting on
Speaker 1: ways we can support survivors, hold people accountable, and help
Speaker 1: create a safer world for children. Thank you, Sarah for
Speaker 1: sharing your story with such honesty and grace, and thank
Speaker 1: you for listening to No Filter. The executive producer of
Speaker 1: No Filter is Nama Brown. The senior producer is Free Player.
Speaker 1: Audio production is by Jacob Brown and video editing is
Speaker 1: by Josh Green. This episode was recorded at Session in
Speaker 1: Progress Studios and I am your host, Kate lane Brook.
Speaker 1: Thank you, as always for listening,