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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mother Mia podcast. Mama Mia acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on.

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Speaker 2: I remember the first time he kissed me, he came

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Speaker 2: up behind me. I froze. I just went into complete dissociation.

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Speaker 2: I was unresponsive. I just didn't move and like, looking back,

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Speaker 2: it was just a complete fear response, you know, And

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Speaker 2: it just baffles me that he would continue when someone

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Speaker 2: is so unresponsive, you know, like, yeah, as scary.

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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to No Filter. I'm Kate lane Brook

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Speaker 1: and today's episode is one of those conversations that stays

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Speaker 1: with you long after it's over. We're speaking with Sarah Kopp,

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Speaker 1: a woman whose life was dramatically shaped by an experience

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Speaker 1: that no one should ever have to endure. As a teenager,

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Speaker 1: Sarah was groomed by a teacher, a man she trusted,

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Speaker 1: a person meant to guide and protect her, and that

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Speaker 1: betrayal would cast a long shadow over her life, leading

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Speaker 1: her into a complex and painful journey that eventually included

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Speaker 1: marrying him. It's a difficult story, so friends, please listen mindfully.

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Speaker 1: It took immense courage for Sarah to confront her past

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Speaker 1: to report him to police and to step into a

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Speaker 1: role of advocacy and change. Today, Sarah is the founder

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Speaker 1: of step In for Kids, a powerful organization dedicated to

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Speaker 1: protecting children from abuse and supporting survivors. In this episode,

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Speaker 1: we explore Sarah's story with honesty, compassion, and care, her

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Speaker 1: journey through trauma, account of blay, and ultimately courage. It's

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Speaker 1: a story about survival, it's a story about resilience, and

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Speaker 1: it's a story about the transformative power of speaking out

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Speaker 1: and abandoning shame. Sarah Copp, Welcome to No Filter.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: Your story is so extraordinary that I do not know

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Speaker 1: how everybody in the country doesn't know it. And in

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Speaker 1: a climate where there's a lot of conversation about grooming

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Speaker 1: young women, in your case, the responsibilities of teachers, what

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Speaker 1: happened to you is so incredible that I would like

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Speaker 1: you to take me back, if you can, to the

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Speaker 1: time when you were fourteen. You were a high school

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Speaker 1: student at school in Queensland. Who were you then?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, when I suppose when I was fourteen, before you know,

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Speaker 2: all of it happened, I was very fun, loving girl.

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Speaker 2: I was into my dancing. You know that was my

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Speaker 2: massive passion. I danced every afternoon if I could, you know,

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Speaker 2: and on the weekends and things like that with my classes.

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Speaker 2: I had a excellent social life with my friends. We

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Speaker 2: you know, I grew up in Harvey Bay, so we

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Speaker 2: were always at the beach, hanging out and just having

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Speaker 2: a good time, good relationships with the people around me

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Speaker 2: and my family and things like that. I did well

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Speaker 2: at school. I was a bit of a bit of

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Speaker 2: a nerd, I suppose, you know, had good grades, tried hard,

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Speaker 2: involved myself in all the extracurricular activities and things like that.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, I'd say, you know, I was. I was

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Speaker 2: a kid that was pretty squared away and just enjoying

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Speaker 2: enjoying being a kid, I suppose.

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Speaker 1: And also in the cusp of anyone who's been a

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Speaker 1: fourteen year old girl, girl on the cusp of womanhood,

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Speaker 1: or anyone who's loved or known a fourteen year old

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Speaker 1: girl knows what that period is like, where things are

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Speaker 1: in flux and things are starting to blossom, and you're

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Speaker 1: filled sometimes with insecurity and sometimes with excitement and the

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Speaker 1: possibility of life. And then a new teacher arrived at

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Speaker 1: your school.

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Speaker 2: His name, yep, his name is Paul Greally h So, yeah,

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Speaker 2: he started the year that I was in year ten.

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Speaker 1: He was a pe teacher, correct, And did he become

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Speaker 1: your pe teacher?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: So he became my actual teacher in the second term

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Speaker 2: of that year, so it would have been around March,

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Speaker 2: after the first school holidays.

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Speaker 1: And what was the nature of his arrival? I imagine

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Speaker 1: if I go back to school, you know when a

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Speaker 1: new teacher comes, he is a bit of amongst the students,

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Speaker 1: amongst the girls. Was a cute looking guy. He was

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Speaker 1: your pe teacher, I imagine there was that little friss on.

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Speaker 3: Yes, so.

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Speaker 2: There was a massive buzz about him arriving at the school.

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Speaker 2: I remember, you know, one of my good friends had

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Speaker 2: him as a teacher in the first term and she

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Speaker 2: just talked about him all the time, about.

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Speaker 3: How cool he was.

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Speaker 2: And I actually hadn't really seen him when I was

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Speaker 2: hearing a lot of, you know, the rumors about him.

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Speaker 3: So I was a bit intrigued as to who this

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Speaker 3: guy was. I suppose.

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Speaker 2: I also had a friend that I danced with who

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Speaker 2: she just graduated from school, so she wasn't at school

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Speaker 2: at the time, but had run into him at a

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Speaker 2: nightclub and she was talking about him at dancing right,

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Speaker 2: you know, sort of saying you need to you need

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Speaker 2: to see whether he remembers me, and you know, talking

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Speaker 2: like that. So I'm like, who is this guy? And

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Speaker 2: I do remember the first time that I really, I guess,

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Speaker 2: had a conversation with him, and my friend that was

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Speaker 2: in his class went to speak to him at lunchtime

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Speaker 2: and I tagged along, and he was just very very charismatic.

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Speaker 2: And what stuck with me, I think was the way

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Speaker 2: that he communicated to us as students. It didn't it

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Speaker 2: wasn't like all the other teachers. He made you feel

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Speaker 2: like you were on his level in some way, like

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Speaker 2: a mate, very jokey, in jovial and things like that.

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Speaker 2: So I walked away going, oh, wow, he is really cool.

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Speaker 2: I felt like he could be a friend, you know,

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Speaker 2: rather than a teacher. He was very different, and he

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Speaker 2: dressed well, he you know, he wore all the you know,

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Speaker 2: luxury sports brands and things like that, had a nice

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Speaker 2: tan and flashy smile. So he was very charismatic and

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Speaker 2: I could see, you know, what all the hype was about,

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Speaker 2: I suppose.

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Speaker 1: So you had noticed him obviously, like there's one teacher

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Speaker 1: and a lot of students. At what point did you

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Speaker 1: realize that he had stuck to notice you?

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Speaker 2: So when he became my actual teacher and the subject

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Speaker 2: so in year ten, that year we got to choose

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Speaker 2: each term a different sport to do, so I had

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Speaker 2: chosen to do gymnastics, and that's what he was my

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Speaker 2: teacher for. And it was pretty soon after we had

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Speaker 2: a few classes, and I suppose he noticed my natural

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Speaker 2: physical ability. I guess my background and dance probably helped

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Speaker 2: with what I was doing gymnastics, And it was pretty

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Speaker 2: quickly that he started asking me questions and saying, oh,

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Speaker 2: you're very good at this. What's your background? And I

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Speaker 2: said I was a dancer, and he really bonded with

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Speaker 2: me over that and said how he has so many

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Speaker 2: dancer friends. He loves dancing. And it was from that

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Speaker 2: point that every lesson he would talk to me about

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Speaker 2: that and talk about my physical capabilities and really compliment

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Speaker 2: my strength and my ability that in that way, I suppose, and.

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Speaker 1: So there was a you felt that there was bond

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Speaker 1: growing between you, and also in those circumstances, I imagine

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Speaker 1: to be the chosen one is quite an amazing feeling,

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Speaker 1: and particularly at that age, and there's this amazing teacher

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Speaker 1: and who has this intimacy with all these children, and

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Speaker 1: who's very impressive, and he had noticed you. He singled

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Speaker 1: you out, he bigged you up, he made you feel great.

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Speaker 1: At what point did it start to transition into an

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Speaker 1: even sort of greater intimacy and how does that happen?

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Speaker 1: And where did that happen?

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Speaker 2: So I would say, you know, over the coming weeks

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Speaker 2: in those gymnastics lessons, his compliments and his conversations changed

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Speaker 2: from being focused on my physical ability to more my

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Speaker 2: actual physical looks and things like that. So it kind

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Speaker 2: of shifted from being, oh, you know, you're so good

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Speaker 2: at doing that trick to oh, you're so muscular, you

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Speaker 2: have such a great, you know, muscly body, And then

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Speaker 2: he would start commenting on actual parts of my body,

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Speaker 2: which I do remember thinking we're crazy that a teacher

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Speaker 2: would say that. But as you say, when you're that

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Speaker 2: age and you're just dying to fit in and feel

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Speaker 2: like you're a part of you know, being accepted and

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Speaker 2: all that kind of stuff, it is so nice to hear.

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Speaker 2: And so those conversations also sort of came with I

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Speaker 2: suppose he started touching me more in class because obviously

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Speaker 2: with gymnastics there is that physical element where you do

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Speaker 2: need to spot people when they're doing tricks and things

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Speaker 2: like that. Yes, but it I feel like the touching

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Speaker 2: started becoming more obvious and touching me in places where

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Speaker 2: where I didn't think he needed to. At first, I

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Speaker 2: was probably trying to rationalize it, like, oh, it was

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Speaker 2: a mistake, you know, it's probably hard to spot someone.

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Speaker 2: He did it by accident, But it became more frequent

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Speaker 2: and more obvious that he was doing it on purpose,

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Speaker 2: so you know, brushing further down my back so that

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Speaker 2: he would you know, graze lower areas and things like that.

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Speaker 1: The hand lingering just longer than it needed to.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And so that sort of that went on

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Speaker 2: for a number of weeks, I suppose, and then he

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Speaker 2: sort of started finding ways to associate with me out

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Speaker 2: of the class itself. So whether that was at lunchtime

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Speaker 2: or you know, before school, he would sit me down

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Speaker 2: and help me with assignments and things like that and

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Speaker 2: have that one on one time outside of the classroom.

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Speaker 2: And he'd always find like take me to a place

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Speaker 2: that was somewhat isolated, Like I remember sitting in the

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Speaker 2: grand stands of our gym Paul when no one was

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Speaker 2: around at lunch, because I don't even think we were

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Speaker 2: allowed in there, and we would sit in there and

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Speaker 2: he'd go through assignments and you know, just really building

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Speaker 2: that relationship, starting to normalize being close to me, and

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Speaker 2: you know, the occasional touching of my knee while we're

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Speaker 2: sitting down and things like that, and that just became

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Speaker 2: more and more common that you then don't think of

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Speaker 2: it as unusual.

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Speaker 1: Had he been asking you at this point questions about

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Speaker 1: your personal life and had you ever had a boyfriend,

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Speaker 1: that sort of stuff, so getting to know you on

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Speaker 1: that level as well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he would ask me about my life in general,

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Speaker 2: and we would have conversations. He knew that I came

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Speaker 2: from a single mother family. I remember him actually talking

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Speaker 2: about a relationship that he'd had with a student from

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Speaker 2: the school he was at previously. Oh well, he used

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Speaker 2: to draw parallels. Not a sexual relationship that he told me,

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Speaker 2: but he would draw parallel saying, oh, you know, you

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Speaker 2: remind me so much of this young girl that I

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Speaker 2: taught at this school and she had a single mom

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Speaker 2: and things like that, and I used to help them

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Speaker 2: with things, and yeah, he was very much well aware

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Speaker 2: of my home life and my situation. We did at

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Speaker 2: some point start getting into conversations about my I guess,

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Speaker 2: my history with boyfriends and things like that, but I

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Speaker 2: don't can't quite remember when that happened, whether that was

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Speaker 2: so early on or if it was once he started

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Speaker 2: coming over to my home and things like that, which he.

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Speaker 1: Did, because of course this is you're remembering things now

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Speaker 1: and seeing them through a very different leans than you

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Speaker 1: did at the time. And it was a long time ago.

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Speaker 1: It was late nineties.

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Speaker 3: Was this the year two thousand? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: So two thousand, yeah, a long time And so at

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Speaker 1: that point, had other people around you notice that there

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Speaker 1: was this growing sense of bonding between you and mister Greeley.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I had countless friends and students make comments to

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Speaker 2: me about, you know, this relationship that I had with him,

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Speaker 2: and there were definitely eyebrows raised about, you know, what's

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Speaker 2: actually going on. And I think that contributed to me

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Speaker 2: eventually being very isolated from my peers because the questioning

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Speaker 2: got so relentless. I really had to back away because

219
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Speaker 2: I just was so afraid of, you know, talking about anything.

220
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Speaker 2: So I started to close off because I just didn't

221
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Speaker 2: want to talk about it, and I ended up really

222
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Speaker 2: not spending any time with people of my own age.

223
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Speaker 1: And was it also because there was a sense that

224
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Speaker 1: there was something that was growing between you and Paul

225
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Speaker 1: that was kind of precious, So you were protecting that.

226
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean even in those early days when oh,

227
00:14:09,605 --> 00:14:13,405
Speaker 2: I suppose relationship only existed within the school environment, I

228
00:14:13,445 --> 00:14:16,525
Speaker 2: remember him saying things to me like, even if I

229
00:14:16,525 --> 00:14:19,125
Speaker 2: had a wife and a child, I would leave them

230
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Speaker 2: for you, and it just talk about how fabulous I was,

231
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Speaker 2: Like he really put me up on a pedestal. And

232
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Speaker 2: it did become this secret that I felt like I

233
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Speaker 2: had to protect because there's this man here who cares

234
00:14:33,245 --> 00:14:38,325
Speaker 2: about me and really accepts me for who I am,

235
00:14:38,965 --> 00:14:42,485
Speaker 2: knows all about me and what I'm interested in, and

236
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Speaker 2: loves that about me.

237
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Speaker 3: And so I.

238
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Speaker 2: Did feel like I had to protect him and that secret.

239
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Speaker 1: And sees the specialness in you. And at that age

240
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Speaker 1: often you're racked by the desire that your belief that

241
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Speaker 1: you might be special is a founded one, but you're

242
00:15:03,885 --> 00:15:07,325
Speaker 1: also torn with the fact that maybe you're not. So

243
00:15:07,405 --> 00:15:12,405
Speaker 1: someone who's making new feel like a queen is has

244
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Speaker 1: the most powerful tool in their tool kit.

245
00:15:15,605 --> 00:15:20,485
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know for myself, and I think most people

246
00:15:20,525 --> 00:15:24,285
Speaker 2: going through those years of adolescence, you are still trying

247
00:15:24,325 --> 00:15:26,685
Speaker 2: to work out who you are and where you fit

248
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Speaker 2: in the bigger picture. I didn't always feel like I

249
00:15:30,525 --> 00:15:32,925
Speaker 2: fit in well with my peers, just because I had

250
00:15:33,005 --> 00:15:36,805
Speaker 2: such a I don't know, outgoing crazy personality. Sometimes I

251
00:15:36,805 --> 00:15:39,525
Speaker 2: felt like I was a bit much for people, you know,

252
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Speaker 2: I guess through my dancing I was always wanting to

253
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Speaker 2: entertain people in some capacity and very confident, and yeah,

254
00:15:48,365 --> 00:15:50,805
Speaker 2: sometimes I felt like it wasn't well received with my peers.

255
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Speaker 2: And yeah, he was there, yeah, really making me feel special,

256
00:15:55,645 --> 00:15:59,405
Speaker 2: like that was a great quality in me, and you

257
00:15:59,445 --> 00:16:03,685
Speaker 2: know he adored that, And so it does. It makes

258
00:16:03,685 --> 00:16:06,285
Speaker 2: you feel unique and special.

259
00:16:06,085 --> 00:16:09,565
Speaker 1: Yes, And often I think at that age where sometimes

260
00:16:09,725 --> 00:16:12,805
Speaker 1: maybe your girlfriends were a little bit in that physical

261
00:16:13,045 --> 00:16:16,765
Speaker 1: you know, losing your downy feathers and getting the awkward

262
00:16:16,765 --> 00:16:20,085
Speaker 1: adolescent feathers. Because you were a dancer, you would have

263
00:16:20,125 --> 00:16:24,525
Speaker 1: had some physical assuredness that maybe they didn't have that

264
00:16:24,725 --> 00:16:28,045
Speaker 1: also may have singled you out from them.

265
00:16:28,365 --> 00:16:32,205
Speaker 2: Yeah, potentially, because it's funny, you know, I felt like

266
00:16:32,325 --> 00:16:33,965
Speaker 2: that at the time, and then you go back to

267
00:16:34,045 --> 00:16:35,885
Speaker 2: school reunions years later and people are.

268
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Speaker 3: Like, oh, I really looked up to you.

269
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Speaker 2: I thought you were fantastic, and you know, you were

270
00:16:40,205 --> 00:16:42,645
Speaker 2: always so confident, and they do they compliment all those

271
00:16:42,685 --> 00:16:43,245
Speaker 2: things that you.

272
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Speaker 3: At the time felt so awkward and uncomfortable about.

273
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Speaker 2: So, yeah, I do think potentially there was an element

274
00:16:49,885 --> 00:16:53,125
Speaker 2: of that where, yeah, I probably did have that natural

275
00:16:53,125 --> 00:16:55,805
Speaker 2: confidence that some other girls my age might not have had,

276
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Speaker 2: and it did make me feel a bit isolated.

277
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Speaker 1: And how did it transition then from these one on

278
00:17:03,565 --> 00:17:08,325
Speaker 1: one sessions and him helping you, complimenting you. You said

279
00:17:08,325 --> 00:17:10,845
Speaker 1: that he did any up visiting you at home.

280
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Speaker 2: Yes, so just before that happened, he started he actually

281
00:17:16,565 --> 00:17:21,125
Speaker 2: met my mom through some basketball games that I used

282
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Speaker 2: to cheerlead for the local basketball team on the weekends,

283
00:17:25,725 --> 00:17:29,045
Speaker 2: and he started going to those with some other teachers

284
00:17:29,045 --> 00:17:32,565
Speaker 2: from school, and that's when he met my mom for

285
00:17:32,605 --> 00:17:38,965
Speaker 2: the first time and developed some sort of friendly relationship

286
00:17:39,005 --> 00:17:41,925
Speaker 2: with her there, so she knew who he was. They

287
00:17:41,965 --> 00:17:46,685
Speaker 2: had had some conversation, nothing too deep, but he was charming, yes, yes,

288
00:17:46,845 --> 00:17:52,205
Speaker 2: very charming. Even Mum remembers thinking what a lovely, lovely

289
00:17:52,285 --> 00:17:56,085
Speaker 2: teacher he was, and very invested in me and my education.

290
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Speaker 3: He through that he.

291
00:17:59,005 --> 00:18:01,845
Speaker 2: Had organized, like for my mom to drive me to

292
00:18:01,925 --> 00:18:04,445
Speaker 2: his house one weekend so he could help me with

293
00:18:04,485 --> 00:18:06,285
Speaker 2: an assignment, and she sat in the car in his

294
00:18:06,365 --> 00:18:11,205
Speaker 2: driveway while I went into his house, and then we

295
00:18:11,285 --> 00:18:13,605
Speaker 2: ended up sitting outside and he spent all this time

296
00:18:13,805 --> 00:18:17,045
Speaker 2: with me. Then he was he'd organized with mum for

297
00:18:17,085 --> 00:18:20,045
Speaker 2: me to have triple jump training with him early morning

298
00:18:20,085 --> 00:18:24,325
Speaker 2: before school, things like that, and so Mum was really

299
00:18:25,365 --> 00:18:28,365
Speaker 2: under the understanding that he was a teacher that was

300
00:18:28,405 --> 00:18:31,485
Speaker 2: just really invested in me and my education and thought

301
00:18:31,485 --> 00:18:36,485
Speaker 2: it was fantastic. But it was all I supposed to

302
00:18:36,725 --> 00:18:39,285
Speaker 2: build that relationship and get closer to us as a family.

303
00:18:40,285 --> 00:18:44,805
Speaker 2: And my grandfather passed away in August of that year,

304
00:18:45,525 --> 00:18:50,565
Speaker 2: which is my mom's father, and he sent Moum flowers

305
00:18:50,565 --> 00:18:55,005
Speaker 2: and a card to the house, you know, obviously empathizing.

306
00:18:54,405 --> 00:18:57,365
Speaker 3: With her, spoke about the fact.

307
00:18:57,125 --> 00:19:00,405
Speaker 2: That he'd lost his mum not that long ago, and

308
00:19:00,485 --> 00:19:03,085
Speaker 2: through that he ended up getting invited to our place

309
00:19:03,125 --> 00:19:06,165
Speaker 2: for dinner one night, and that was kind of the

310
00:19:06,205 --> 00:19:09,245
Speaker 2: start of that, and that became such a regular feature

311
00:19:09,405 --> 00:19:12,365
Speaker 2: our life, was him turning up with a bottle of

312
00:19:12,405 --> 00:19:16,365
Speaker 2: red wine and some card games and music, and we'd

313
00:19:16,405 --> 00:19:21,085
Speaker 2: have dinner and have drinks and he teaches some card games.

314
00:19:21,125 --> 00:19:26,805
Speaker 2: And I think he really took advantage of how vulnerable

315
00:19:27,245 --> 00:19:30,565
Speaker 2: mum was at that time, losing her dad, she was grieving,

316
00:19:31,365 --> 00:19:34,845
Speaker 2: and how vulnerable I was. And yeah, he just became

317
00:19:34,885 --> 00:19:37,925
Speaker 2: a regular feature in our home from that point forward.

318
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Speaker 1: At that point, where was your father in this?

319
00:19:42,765 --> 00:19:47,605
Speaker 2: I had never known my father, so my parents broke

320
00:19:47,685 --> 00:19:51,445
Speaker 2: up while my mom was pregnant, so I didn't know

321
00:19:51,605 --> 00:19:53,725
Speaker 2: him at all. I didn't even know where he was,

322
00:19:54,205 --> 00:19:55,845
Speaker 2: So yeah, he was completely out of the picture.

323
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Speaker 1: I asked that because to then have this male figure

324
00:20:00,085 --> 00:20:04,085
Speaker 1: who's turning up, yes, and takes a natural seat at

325
00:20:04,085 --> 00:20:07,285
Speaker 1: the table. Even though it seemed so strange that it

326
00:20:07,325 --> 00:20:11,205
Speaker 1: was a teacher, it assumed some sort of normalcy and

327
00:20:11,245 --> 00:20:13,605
Speaker 1: filled a role that your mum would have been very

328
00:20:13,685 --> 00:20:14,605
Speaker 1: appreciative of.

329
00:20:15,125 --> 00:20:15,405
Speaker 3: Yes.

330
00:20:15,885 --> 00:20:19,605
Speaker 1: Did she have any sense at the time that it

331
00:20:19,685 --> 00:20:20,765
Speaker 1: was strange.

332
00:20:21,485 --> 00:20:25,565
Speaker 2: No, I don't think she thought it was strange. She

333
00:20:26,085 --> 00:20:29,525
Speaker 2: really appreciated his friendship, right. That's one thing that she

334
00:20:29,805 --> 00:20:32,765
Speaker 2: reflects on is Mom didn't have a lot of friends

335
00:20:32,805 --> 00:20:36,445
Speaker 2: at the time, and I think for her it was

336
00:20:36,485 --> 00:20:38,525
Speaker 2: an adult that she could talk to and have adult

337
00:20:38,525 --> 00:20:42,285
Speaker 2: conversations with and talk about her problems. And yeah, I

338
00:20:42,365 --> 00:20:46,045
Speaker 2: think she had no clue that he was interested in

339
00:20:46,085 --> 00:20:51,125
Speaker 2: me and genuinely thought that he was there as her friend, right,

340
00:20:51,885 --> 00:20:55,725
Speaker 2: And you know, I support to her, and yeah, she

341
00:20:55,765 --> 00:20:59,925
Speaker 2: looks back at that. I mean, obviously completely differently now,

342
00:21:00,005 --> 00:21:03,645
Speaker 2: but at the time, yeah, she just really appreciated having

343
00:21:03,885 --> 00:21:06,125
Speaker 2: another grown up to talk to.

344
00:21:06,685 --> 00:21:09,925
Speaker 1: And then at what point did it change? So when

345
00:21:09,925 --> 00:21:12,205
Speaker 1: he would say come to your house, did he ever

346
00:21:12,325 --> 00:21:15,125
Speaker 1: seek you out or was he very careful not to

347
00:21:15,205 --> 00:21:17,965
Speaker 1: do that and just really to build the bond with

348
00:21:18,005 --> 00:21:18,925
Speaker 1: your mom?

349
00:21:19,245 --> 00:21:24,285
Speaker 2: Initially it was, I suppose building that bond, But then

350
00:21:24,405 --> 00:21:29,605
Speaker 2: it did change. He ended up getting suspended from school

351
00:21:30,085 --> 00:21:32,605
Speaker 2: for a number of things. I'm not entirely sure of

352
00:21:32,645 --> 00:21:36,405
Speaker 2: all the details, but yeah, he sort of vanished from

353
00:21:36,445 --> 00:21:40,805
Speaker 2: school one day and I didn't know where he was.

354
00:21:40,925 --> 00:21:43,645
Speaker 2: So this was probably prior to him coming over to

355
00:21:43,685 --> 00:21:49,645
Speaker 2: our house regularly. And another teacher actually came up to

356
00:21:49,685 --> 00:21:51,685
Speaker 2: me at a district sports carnival and handed me a

357
00:21:51,725 --> 00:21:55,925
Speaker 2: piece of paper and said, oh, really wants you to

358
00:21:55,925 --> 00:21:57,765
Speaker 2: come to the beach on the weekend. Here's his number,

359
00:21:58,445 --> 00:22:04,525
Speaker 2: which I did, and that's when he really started sexualizing things.

360
00:22:04,285 --> 00:22:05,205
Speaker 3: Like in the water.

361
00:22:06,325 --> 00:22:10,165
Speaker 2: It became very evident that it wasn't my friendship, it

362
00:22:10,325 --> 00:22:14,005
Speaker 2: was actual romantic interest there. And he ended up kissing

363
00:22:14,005 --> 00:22:17,605
Speaker 2: me on the beach that day. And then because he

364
00:22:17,645 --> 00:22:20,445
Speaker 2: was suspended from school, I was sick one day and

365
00:22:20,525 --> 00:22:23,325
Speaker 2: I sent him a stupid message on my mobile phone,

366
00:22:23,605 --> 00:22:28,325
Speaker 2: some immature text message, and he said, are you not

367
00:22:28,405 --> 00:22:30,685
Speaker 2: at school? And I said no, and he said, oh,

368
00:22:30,725 --> 00:22:34,525
Speaker 2: come over and bring your chicken soup. And that was

369
00:22:35,045 --> 00:22:37,845
Speaker 2: that was when it all changed. So we had obviously

370
00:22:37,885 --> 00:22:41,445
Speaker 2: we were home alone together that day and that's when

371
00:22:41,485 --> 00:22:44,845
Speaker 2: things escalated. And then those those times at home when

372
00:22:44,885 --> 00:22:47,925
Speaker 2: he'd come over when mom was there, he would linger

373
00:22:48,285 --> 00:22:50,565
Speaker 2: after she'd go to bed because Mum was still working

374
00:22:50,565 --> 00:22:52,885
Speaker 2: and had to get up early, and she'd go to

375
00:22:52,925 --> 00:22:56,205
Speaker 2: bed and excuse herself and he would hang around then.

376
00:22:56,765 --> 00:22:59,605
Speaker 2: And yeah, that's that was kind of how that transitioned.

377
00:22:59,605 --> 00:23:00,125
Speaker 3: I suppose.

378
00:23:00,565 --> 00:23:03,845
Speaker 1: So then you what did you think you were to

379
00:23:03,965 --> 00:23:05,725
Speaker 1: him and what did you think the nature of the

380
00:23:05,765 --> 00:23:09,285
Speaker 1: relationship was. So obviously this was you were having seen

381
00:23:09,325 --> 00:23:15,165
Speaker 1: sexual encounters. Now, was it your first sexual experience with him.

382
00:23:15,405 --> 00:23:16,125
Speaker 3: To that level?

383
00:23:16,205 --> 00:23:20,165
Speaker 2: Yes, definitely. I'd had a couple of short term boyfriends,

384
00:23:20,445 --> 00:23:24,005
Speaker 2: as you do at that age, that didn't company went

385
00:23:24,085 --> 00:23:27,685
Speaker 2: near you know that that level. My memories of that

386
00:23:27,805 --> 00:23:31,005
Speaker 2: time is just how hard and fast that came on

387
00:23:31,085 --> 00:23:35,885
Speaker 2: for me. And I think that that's the damaging thing

388
00:23:35,925 --> 00:23:39,085
Speaker 2: about that is, you know, when you're with people your

389
00:23:39,085 --> 00:23:42,285
Speaker 2: own age and you're experiencing all those new things together,

390
00:23:43,525 --> 00:23:48,005
Speaker 2: it's everybody's first, so you know, you're really only doing

391
00:23:48,045 --> 00:23:52,205
Speaker 2: things that you're comfortable with, and it's all very much experimentation.

392
00:23:53,325 --> 00:23:57,405
Speaker 2: But when you're with a man, it just goes like

393
00:23:57,525 --> 00:24:00,885
Speaker 2: one hundred percent straight away. And a lot of the

394
00:24:00,885 --> 00:24:04,725
Speaker 2: things that I was being made to do or experience,

395
00:24:05,405 --> 00:24:08,325
Speaker 2: I just I was in shock. I remember the first

396
00:24:08,365 --> 00:24:13,085
Speaker 2: time he kissed me, he came up behind me. I froze.

397
00:24:13,165 --> 00:24:16,765
Speaker 2: I just went into complete dissociation. I was unresponsive. I

398
00:24:16,885 --> 00:24:21,245
Speaker 2: just didn't move and like looking back, it was just

399
00:24:21,285 --> 00:24:25,205
Speaker 2: a complete fear response, you know, and it just baffles

400
00:24:25,245 --> 00:24:29,365
Speaker 2: me that he would continue when someone is so unresponsive,

401
00:24:29,525 --> 00:24:33,605
Speaker 2: you know, like, yeah, a was scary.

402
00:24:34,045 --> 00:24:38,365
Speaker 1: At the time. How did he address your non responsiveness?

403
00:24:39,205 --> 00:24:41,925
Speaker 1: Did he think that you were shy or you were

404
00:24:43,085 --> 00:24:46,805
Speaker 1: reticent or being coquettish or playing hard to get or

405
00:24:47,125 --> 00:24:48,605
Speaker 1: did he not really focus on that?

406
00:24:48,845 --> 00:24:51,725
Speaker 2: He just ignored it. And that's what I find someone settling.

407
00:24:51,765 --> 00:24:53,965
Speaker 2: It's you know, in this day and age when we

408
00:24:53,965 --> 00:24:57,325
Speaker 2: talk about consent and what consent looks like, yes, and

409
00:24:57,365 --> 00:24:59,685
Speaker 2: someone has to be an active participant in that, and

410
00:24:59,765 --> 00:25:00,765
Speaker 2: I was clearly not.

411
00:25:01,165 --> 00:25:02,565
Speaker 3: I didn't move I just.

412
00:25:03,805 --> 00:25:07,565
Speaker 2: He he almost had to move me, like I was

413
00:25:07,565 --> 00:25:11,605
Speaker 2: some sort of you know, homely dummy. And he just

414
00:25:11,645 --> 00:25:17,605
Speaker 2: didn't even acknowledge my responses or talk about anything. Never

415
00:25:18,085 --> 00:25:21,005
Speaker 2: never had a conversation about my feelings and any of this,

416
00:25:21,125 --> 00:25:23,885
Speaker 2: and what I was comfortable with. It was just he

417
00:25:23,925 --> 00:25:27,165
Speaker 2: wanted what he wanted, and you know, I just felt

418
00:25:27,165 --> 00:25:28,085
Speaker 2: so objectified.

419
00:25:28,525 --> 00:25:31,005
Speaker 1: So you were at this stage, like fifteen, had you

420
00:25:31,045 --> 00:25:32,285
Speaker 1: turned fifteen? Yes?

421
00:25:32,405 --> 00:25:33,365
Speaker 3: I had turned fifteen.

422
00:25:33,645 --> 00:25:34,885
Speaker 1: How old was he?

423
00:25:34,885 --> 00:25:36,485
Speaker 3: He was thirty one?

424
00:25:36,805 --> 00:25:37,125
Speaker 1: Right?

425
00:25:38,205 --> 00:25:38,965
Speaker 3: And then so.

426
00:25:40,445 --> 00:25:45,245
Speaker 1: You're now in a relationship with him. You go back

427
00:25:45,285 --> 00:25:49,005
Speaker 1: to school, I mean he's back at school after the suspension,

428
00:25:49,045 --> 00:25:50,325
Speaker 1: the mystery suspension.

429
00:25:50,725 --> 00:25:53,085
Speaker 2: Yeah, he does eventually come back to school at some

430
00:25:53,205 --> 00:25:54,925
Speaker 2: point at the end of that year.

431
00:25:55,245 --> 00:25:56,845
Speaker 1: And then how does that work?

432
00:25:57,765 --> 00:26:00,685
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was interesting. He actually he came up with

433
00:26:00,725 --> 00:26:04,085
Speaker 2: a little code like a physical code that he would

434
00:26:04,125 --> 00:26:07,445
Speaker 2: do to show that he was thinking of me and

435
00:26:07,485 --> 00:26:11,285
Speaker 2: wish that he could express his love properly. So he

436
00:26:11,365 --> 00:26:14,685
Speaker 2: used to he'd say, if he ever scratched his ear, right,

437
00:26:15,005 --> 00:26:18,205
Speaker 2: that was what he was thinking about. So, yeah, he'd

438
00:26:19,205 --> 00:26:21,445
Speaker 2: walk through the school at lunchtime. He'd always make sure

439
00:26:21,445 --> 00:26:24,645
Speaker 2: he walked past where my friend group sad, and you know,

440
00:26:24,685 --> 00:26:26,845
Speaker 2: he'd scratch his ear and you know, we'd have this

441
00:26:26,925 --> 00:26:29,525
Speaker 2: little secret that I'd have a little giggle about and

442
00:26:29,765 --> 00:26:35,685
Speaker 2: feel special and whatnot. But I do remember he was

443
00:26:35,765 --> 00:26:39,685
Speaker 2: pretty clear that we had to be careful from that

444
00:26:39,765 --> 00:26:43,725
Speaker 2: point forward, like especially him coming back after being suspended.

445
00:26:44,565 --> 00:26:46,525
Speaker 2: He was very much in my ear all the time

446
00:26:46,565 --> 00:26:50,525
Speaker 2: about it being a secret and that we'd be in trouble,

447
00:26:51,245 --> 00:26:54,845
Speaker 2: and especially him, and you know, we wouldn't be able

448
00:26:54,845 --> 00:26:56,325
Speaker 2: to see each other again and he wouldn't be able

449
00:26:56,325 --> 00:26:59,205
Speaker 2: to do all these fun things with me and if

450
00:26:59,245 --> 00:27:04,045
Speaker 2: anyone found out. So he really sort of made sure

451
00:27:04,125 --> 00:27:07,325
Speaker 2: that I wasn't going to talk to anyone and distance

452
00:27:07,445 --> 00:27:08,645
Speaker 2: myself from him at school.

453
00:27:09,445 --> 00:27:14,205
Speaker 1: Of this is well we now know is textbook, isn't it.

454
00:27:15,365 --> 00:27:16,045
Speaker 3: It is all of.

455
00:27:16,005 --> 00:27:20,045
Speaker 2: It, it is And you know, when I did start

456
00:27:20,085 --> 00:27:24,405
Speaker 2: reading into grooming and things like that. I was kind

457
00:27:24,405 --> 00:27:27,605
Speaker 2: of gobsmacked initially. I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is

458
00:27:28,205 --> 00:27:29,725
Speaker 2: exactly how it played out for me.

459
00:27:30,365 --> 00:27:33,805
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the playbook, But what is not in the

460
00:27:33,845 --> 00:27:42,045
Speaker 1: playbook is that this relationship then survived for your remaining

461
00:27:42,085 --> 00:27:45,965
Speaker 1: two years at school, was still a secret all that

462
00:27:46,125 --> 00:27:53,845
Speaker 1: time from your friends, other teachers, your mum who knew.

463
00:27:55,085 --> 00:28:00,045
Speaker 2: So I eventually confessed to my best friend Amanda that

464
00:28:01,565 --> 00:28:05,325
Speaker 2: things had escalated and things were happening between us.

465
00:28:05,485 --> 00:28:07,765
Speaker 3: She was like she knew.

466
00:28:07,885 --> 00:28:10,125
Speaker 2: She was always at me to the point where she

467
00:28:10,205 --> 00:28:12,845
Speaker 2: was threatening our friendship if I didn't if I didn't

468
00:28:12,845 --> 00:28:16,685
Speaker 2: come clean, and obviously you know I didn't. I didn't

469
00:28:16,685 --> 00:28:19,325
Speaker 2: want to lie to her anymore. And it was during

470
00:28:19,365 --> 00:28:22,325
Speaker 2: the Christmas holidays, like between two thousand and two thousand

471
00:28:22,325 --> 00:28:25,405
Speaker 2: and one. She'd come back from a trip to see

472
00:28:25,445 --> 00:28:28,405
Speaker 2: her dad and Sydney, and we were just talking about

473
00:28:28,485 --> 00:28:32,005
Speaker 2: things that we're done with our boyfriend, like with her boyfriend,

474
00:28:32,045 --> 00:28:35,765
Speaker 2: and I ended up coming clean and telling her that,

475
00:28:36,005 --> 00:28:38,485
Speaker 2: you know, I had done stuff, but I swore her

476
00:28:38,525 --> 00:28:41,685
Speaker 2: to secrecy, and we came up with this really silly

477
00:28:41,725 --> 00:28:44,885
Speaker 2: code of we call if ever we wrote about him

478
00:28:44,885 --> 00:28:47,565
Speaker 2: in a letter. We called him Subway for some reason.

479
00:28:47,645 --> 00:28:50,325
Speaker 2: I don't even know how that started. So from that

480
00:28:50,405 --> 00:28:54,685
Speaker 2: point forward I did confide in her a lot about things,

481
00:28:54,965 --> 00:28:56,765
Speaker 2: and it's funny now to look back at our letters

482
00:28:56,765 --> 00:28:59,205
Speaker 2: and see that immaturity.

483
00:28:59,325 --> 00:28:59,965
Speaker 3: I suppose.

484
00:29:00,725 --> 00:29:07,805
Speaker 2: I also confided in Mom after things had escalated. I

485
00:29:07,845 --> 00:29:09,325
Speaker 2: said to her, what had happened?

486
00:29:09,965 --> 00:29:12,085
Speaker 1: How long after did you tell your mom?

487
00:29:12,525 --> 00:29:15,245
Speaker 2: It was before the Christmas holidays of that year, so

488
00:29:15,285 --> 00:29:17,085
Speaker 2: it was the year that things had started.

489
00:29:17,805 --> 00:29:18,005
Speaker 1: Yeah.

490
00:29:18,045 --> 00:29:20,325
Speaker 2: I ended up confiding in her and said, you know,

491
00:29:20,405 --> 00:29:23,285
Speaker 2: please don't tell anyone. He'll get in trouble and he's

492
00:29:23,285 --> 00:29:27,205
Speaker 2: really special to me, you know, don't say anything. And

493
00:29:27,805 --> 00:29:29,565
Speaker 2: I think Mum was in a lot of shock. I

494
00:29:29,605 --> 00:29:33,085
Speaker 2: don't even remember having much of a conversation with her

495
00:29:33,125 --> 00:29:36,765
Speaker 2: about it. It just kind of, I don't know, it

496
00:29:37,245 --> 00:29:39,525
Speaker 2: got swept under the rug in a sense, I suppose.

497
00:29:40,325 --> 00:29:44,205
Speaker 2: And then he ended up actually telling my mum over

498
00:29:44,245 --> 00:29:47,045
Speaker 2: those Christmas holidays himself. He brought me out to the

499
00:29:47,125 --> 00:29:50,485
Speaker 2: kitchen and said I'm in love with your daughter. I

500
00:29:50,525 --> 00:29:52,805
Speaker 2: really care about her, and then kissed me on the

501
00:29:52,845 --> 00:29:55,245
Speaker 2: lips in front of her. And again Mum was just

502
00:29:55,725 --> 00:29:57,685
Speaker 2: you could tell she didn't know what to say. But

503
00:29:57,805 --> 00:30:02,565
Speaker 2: I think because of that relationship that he'd built up

504
00:30:02,965 --> 00:30:06,925
Speaker 2: with Arson, even my grandma, he ended up going over

505
00:30:06,965 --> 00:30:11,285
Speaker 2: to my grandma's house to help with some renovation type

506
00:30:11,325 --> 00:30:15,005
Speaker 2: things because after my grandfather had died, So he really

507
00:30:15,045 --> 00:30:19,485
Speaker 2: tried hard, you know, infiltrating my whole family, and I

508
00:30:19,525 --> 00:30:22,685
Speaker 2: think by that point when he spoke to Mum about it,

509
00:30:22,765 --> 00:30:26,125
Speaker 2: he was just part of the family already, And in hindsight,

510
00:30:26,205 --> 00:30:30,325
Speaker 2: she regrets everything, you know, she wishes she could go

511
00:30:30,405 --> 00:30:33,605
Speaker 2: back in time and change how she responded to things.

512
00:30:33,645 --> 00:30:39,605
Speaker 2: But you know, Mum was very vulnerable and very manipulated

513
00:30:39,645 --> 00:30:42,045
Speaker 2: through that process as well, so I think she was

514
00:30:42,125 --> 00:30:45,645
Speaker 2: very confused and did what she thought was best at

515
00:30:45,645 --> 00:30:46,125
Speaker 2: that time.

516
00:30:46,565 --> 00:30:51,405
Speaker 1: Well, vulnerability, Vulnerability is the key, isn't it. And you

517
00:30:51,445 --> 00:30:57,325
Speaker 1: were all vulnerable, your grandmother, you, your mom, Yes, and

518
00:30:57,365 --> 00:31:01,365
Speaker 1: that of course is we know, that's that's what predators

519
00:31:01,485 --> 00:31:07,085
Speaker 1: use to pray upon people, is vulnerability. But then to

520
00:31:07,245 --> 00:31:09,845
Speaker 1: your mind, well not to your mind, you were in

521
00:31:09,885 --> 00:31:12,805
Speaker 1: a relationship with him, How did that continue? Did he

522
00:31:12,965 --> 00:31:15,965
Speaker 1: stay at the school as you went through do you

523
00:31:16,005 --> 00:31:17,445
Speaker 1: went through year eleven and twelve?

524
00:31:17,725 --> 00:31:22,285
Speaker 2: Yeah, so he left the school early the next year.

525
00:31:22,405 --> 00:31:24,805
Speaker 2: It wasn't like he was there for the start of

526
00:31:24,845 --> 00:31:27,845
Speaker 2: grade eleven, but at some point he had left and

527
00:31:27,885 --> 00:31:31,605
Speaker 2: got transferred to a school in Brisbane. He obviously remained

528
00:31:31,645 --> 00:31:35,685
Speaker 2: in regular contact with me, and there were times when

529
00:31:35,725 --> 00:31:37,165
Speaker 2: he would come back and visit.

530
00:31:37,565 --> 00:31:40,485
Speaker 1: Because so Brisbane's a couple of hours away from Harvey Bay.

531
00:31:40,725 --> 00:31:43,765
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's about three to four hour drive right

532
00:31:43,845 --> 00:31:47,645
Speaker 2: between the two places. He started getting in my ear

533
00:31:47,725 --> 00:31:51,125
Speaker 2: about moving to Brisbane. That was always his big thing was,

534
00:31:51,965 --> 00:31:54,285
Speaker 2: you know, once we moved to Brisbane, then we can

535
00:31:54,325 --> 00:31:55,245
Speaker 2: be a regular couple.

536
00:31:55,325 --> 00:31:56,445
Speaker 3: No one will know us.

537
00:31:57,045 --> 00:32:00,965
Speaker 2: He sort of planted that sea quite early on about

538
00:32:01,005 --> 00:32:03,965
Speaker 2: that being the best thing for us and then the

539
00:32:04,005 --> 00:32:08,165
Speaker 2: secret could be lifted. He even enticed me to go

540
00:32:08,605 --> 00:32:12,845
Speaker 2: by saying that he would get me into the qdoc

541
00:32:13,285 --> 00:32:16,365
Speaker 2: program at Kelvin Grove State High School, which is at

542
00:32:16,405 --> 00:32:19,445
Speaker 2: the time it was quite a reputable dance full time program.

543
00:32:20,005 --> 00:32:22,485
Speaker 2: He said that he was really close with the dance

544
00:32:22,525 --> 00:32:24,805
Speaker 2: teachers there and he'd get me in and it was

545
00:32:24,845 --> 00:32:28,485
Speaker 2: a great opportunity for my dancing. So that obviously was

546
00:32:28,485 --> 00:32:32,605
Speaker 2: so exciting to me. And it was three quarters of

547
00:32:32,645 --> 00:32:36,685
Speaker 2: the way through grade eleven, I decided to leave and

548
00:32:36,805 --> 00:32:40,205
Speaker 2: move and it was very last minute. I had people that,

549
00:32:40,805 --> 00:32:43,285
Speaker 2: like my dance teacher, didn't even know until I'd gone.

550
00:32:45,005 --> 00:32:48,125
Speaker 2: And I lived with my uncle and nannie in Brisbane

551
00:32:48,165 --> 00:32:51,605
Speaker 2: for about six months while Mom stayed in Harvey Bay

552
00:32:51,645 --> 00:32:54,885
Speaker 2: to sell the house and you know, sort out all

553
00:32:54,925 --> 00:32:59,485
Speaker 2: those loose ends. And turns out he never did actually

554
00:32:59,525 --> 00:33:01,125
Speaker 2: try and get me into that school at all, Like

555
00:33:01,205 --> 00:33:04,445
Speaker 2: it was just it was just all talked to to

556
00:33:04,525 --> 00:33:07,805
Speaker 2: get me to move. And yeah, it wasn't even once

557
00:33:07,845 --> 00:33:10,245
Speaker 2: I'd moved there, there was no more conversation about that.

558
00:33:10,365 --> 00:33:12,405
Speaker 2: And I just went to a normal, regular high school

559
00:33:12,445 --> 00:33:14,565
Speaker 2: and finished year twelve there.

560
00:33:16,165 --> 00:33:20,045
Speaker 1: Stay with us. Sarah reflects on her early experiences and

561
00:33:20,085 --> 00:33:22,685
Speaker 1: the long road that led her to question everything she

562
00:33:22,845 --> 00:33:31,005
Speaker 1: thought she knew about trust and love. So you've now moved,

563
00:33:31,765 --> 00:33:36,485
Speaker 1: so you've left Amanda and whatever friendship group you had.

564
00:33:36,845 --> 00:33:43,005
Speaker 1: Your mum's now relocated, so you're all the more reliant

565
00:33:43,125 --> 00:33:49,045
Speaker 1: on him for all your kind of emotional needs.

566
00:33:49,525 --> 00:33:54,285
Speaker 2: Yeah, he once I moved to Brisbane, he was spending

567
00:33:54,485 --> 00:34:00,285
Speaker 2: all of his time with me. I remember being difficult

568
00:34:00,365 --> 00:34:04,965
Speaker 2: to make new friendships at my new school because I'd

569
00:34:05,005 --> 00:34:07,205
Speaker 2: always have to come up with reasons why I couldn't

570
00:34:07,245 --> 00:34:09,605
Speaker 2: hang out with them or go to the parties things

571
00:34:09,645 --> 00:34:12,645
Speaker 2: like that, because you know, he didn't like me going

572
00:34:12,685 --> 00:34:15,245
Speaker 2: to things like parties and that he used to get

573
00:34:15,245 --> 00:34:15,925
Speaker 2: a little bit.

574
00:34:17,445 --> 00:34:17,845
Speaker 3: Jealous.

575
00:34:17,885 --> 00:34:20,325
Speaker 2: I suppose he started getting in my ear around that

576
00:34:20,365 --> 00:34:23,765
Speaker 2: time about how I'm eventually going to leave him because

577
00:34:24,125 --> 00:34:27,045
Speaker 2: I'll realize he's too old and things like that, and

578
00:34:27,085 --> 00:34:30,085
Speaker 2: started making me feel really guilty about wanting to hang

579
00:34:30,125 --> 00:34:32,805
Speaker 2: out with people my own age. So I did really struggle.

580
00:34:32,885 --> 00:34:35,765
Speaker 2: I supposed to make strong friendships at my new school,

581
00:34:35,805 --> 00:34:37,885
Speaker 2: so I did rely on him a lot and was

582
00:34:37,925 --> 00:34:39,965
Speaker 2: spending all of my time with him.

583
00:34:40,605 --> 00:34:45,485
Speaker 1: You know how in schools particularly and teenagers have the

584
00:34:45,525 --> 00:34:50,765
Speaker 1: most like effective grapevine of anybody. Were there any rumors

585
00:34:50,765 --> 00:34:53,085
Speaker 1: at your new school or was anyone kind of looking

586
00:34:53,125 --> 00:34:56,005
Speaker 1: as scance or these stories like you know, Sarah has

587
00:34:56,045 --> 00:34:57,445
Speaker 1: got a much older boyfriend.

588
00:34:58,205 --> 00:35:00,645
Speaker 2: There weren't really any rumors because I was pretty good

589
00:35:00,645 --> 00:35:04,805
Speaker 2: at not really talking about that side of things, and

590
00:35:04,845 --> 00:35:07,845
Speaker 2: I think because I was a new student, it was

591
00:35:08,045 --> 00:35:10,645
Speaker 2: easier to be more secret about that than the people

592
00:35:10,685 --> 00:35:14,245
Speaker 2: that i'd none for most of my life, so you know,

593
00:35:14,525 --> 00:35:16,645
Speaker 2: they just accepted I suppose that I was a little

594
00:35:16,645 --> 00:35:20,525
Speaker 2: bit standoffish and not as sociable as some of the

595
00:35:20,565 --> 00:35:24,445
Speaker 2: other kids. But I remember actually coming clean to the

596
00:35:24,445 --> 00:35:27,125
Speaker 2: friend group that I did have it at my new school,

597
00:35:27,485 --> 00:35:30,245
Speaker 2: and it must have been just prior to my eighteenth birthday.

598
00:35:30,965 --> 00:35:35,245
Speaker 2: And yeah, there was a lot of shock, that's for sure,

599
00:35:35,485 --> 00:35:39,525
Speaker 2: and I don't think they really knew how to take it,

600
00:35:39,685 --> 00:35:43,925
Speaker 2: but it was It wasn't well received, and I remember

601
00:35:44,165 --> 00:35:46,325
Speaker 2: my male group of friends that I had at school,

602
00:35:47,165 --> 00:35:50,525
Speaker 2: they reacted really badly. They got really angry about it

603
00:35:50,685 --> 00:35:53,885
Speaker 2: and was sort of telling me that it's so wrong

604
00:35:53,925 --> 00:35:56,885
Speaker 2: and disgusting and he shouldn't be doing like They were

605
00:35:56,885 --> 00:35:59,205
Speaker 2: really protective and got quite mad about it.

606
00:35:59,325 --> 00:36:02,845
Speaker 1: Oh that's interesting, isn't it. So they were sort of

607
00:36:02,925 --> 00:36:07,925
Speaker 1: kind of more territorial about you and what was happening

608
00:36:07,965 --> 00:36:11,165
Speaker 1: to you than your girlfriends at that time.

609
00:36:11,645 --> 00:36:14,205
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel it was more of the boys that

610
00:36:14,645 --> 00:36:17,445
Speaker 2: got up on edge about it, and it was kind

611
00:36:17,445 --> 00:36:23,405
Speaker 2: of that was the catalyst for Paul eventually saying to me, Oh,

612
00:36:23,445 --> 00:36:26,565
Speaker 2: I think we should we should cool this off because

613
00:36:27,365 --> 00:36:30,125
Speaker 2: you know, I'm clearly too old. Few people are never

614
00:36:30,165 --> 00:36:33,085
Speaker 2: going to accept us. Look at the way your friends reacted,

615
00:36:33,965 --> 00:36:36,485
Speaker 2: But yeah, it is interesting that it sort of was

616
00:36:36,885 --> 00:36:40,285
Speaker 2: the males around me at that time that had a

617
00:36:40,285 --> 00:36:43,165
Speaker 2: problem with it. But yeah, my girlfriends just they were

618
00:36:43,165 --> 00:36:46,605
Speaker 2: shocked and they did think it was weird, yes, but

619
00:36:46,885 --> 00:36:49,965
Speaker 2: they didn't react in the same sort of angry way,

620
00:36:50,005 --> 00:36:50,565
Speaker 2: I suppose.

621
00:36:51,085 --> 00:36:55,725
Speaker 1: So then Paul suggested this period of calling off, which

622
00:36:55,765 --> 00:36:58,325
Speaker 1: would have been I imagine devastating for you.

623
00:36:58,965 --> 00:37:03,405
Speaker 2: It was because for me, I thought, you know, we've

624
00:37:03,445 --> 00:37:06,245
Speaker 2: gotten through all this adversity of all these years where

625
00:37:06,285 --> 00:37:09,125
Speaker 2: it had to be this giant secret, and he'd convinced

626
00:37:09,125 --> 00:37:11,165
Speaker 2: me to move to a whole nother town and separate

627
00:37:11,205 --> 00:37:13,885
Speaker 2: myself from everyone, and for this premise that we could

628
00:37:13,965 --> 00:37:19,245
Speaker 2: finally be in the open together openly, and then he's

629
00:37:19,325 --> 00:37:22,445
Speaker 2: cooling it off, and I felt like the rug had

630
00:37:22,445 --> 00:37:25,685
Speaker 2: been completely pulled from underneath me. It was one of

631
00:37:25,725 --> 00:37:28,405
Speaker 2: the most devastating times in my life. I was so

632
00:37:28,525 --> 00:37:33,845
Speaker 2: confused because he always had said, you know, you're my soulmate,

633
00:37:33,965 --> 00:37:36,725
Speaker 2: you are my you know you are the one, and

634
00:37:36,765 --> 00:37:38,805
Speaker 2: that all just came crashing down in an instant.

635
00:37:39,565 --> 00:37:42,045
Speaker 3: It was. It was really difficult, but.

636
00:37:42,005 --> 00:37:47,405
Speaker 1: You got through that period. What happened that you went

637
00:37:47,605 --> 00:37:52,845
Speaker 1: from him saying that things needed to cool down to

638
00:37:53,045 --> 00:37:56,325
Speaker 1: you two actually getting married.

639
00:37:57,405 --> 00:38:01,445
Speaker 2: So even though he had I suppose, like broke it

640
00:38:01,485 --> 00:38:05,845
Speaker 2: off with me officially, he remained in touch with me

641
00:38:06,085 --> 00:38:09,485
Speaker 2: and would regularly still come over, and you know, we

642
00:38:09,605 --> 00:38:13,645
Speaker 2: maintained a sexual relationship even though we had broken up.

643
00:38:14,445 --> 00:38:18,125
Speaker 2: But again, it sort of became the secret because he

644
00:38:18,925 --> 00:38:23,165
Speaker 2: eventually got engaged. He was dating a student teacher from

645
00:38:23,205 --> 00:38:26,685
Speaker 2: his current school, and they ended up getting engaged, but

646
00:38:26,805 --> 00:38:32,005
Speaker 2: he was still seeing me throughout that whole theme, but saying,

647
00:38:32,045 --> 00:38:35,725
Speaker 2: you know, I just she's nothing like you. Every time

648
00:38:35,765 --> 00:38:38,285
Speaker 2: I'm with her, I just wish I was with you,

649
00:38:38,285 --> 00:38:41,485
Speaker 2: you know, saying all this nonsense, I suppose to keep

650
00:38:41,525 --> 00:38:43,725
Speaker 2: me feeding me the bread crumbs.

651
00:38:43,925 --> 00:38:45,245
Speaker 3: I guess. Yeah.

652
00:38:45,285 --> 00:38:47,765
Speaker 2: So I was never really out of the picture and

653
00:38:47,885 --> 00:38:52,565
Speaker 2: away from him and away from his manipulation. So one

654
00:38:52,685 --> 00:38:56,365
Speaker 2: day I remember getting a phone call from him while

655
00:38:56,365 --> 00:38:59,765
Speaker 2: I was at work, and it said that he needed

656
00:38:59,805 --> 00:39:03,525
Speaker 2: to meet up with me because he was leaving his fiance.

657
00:39:04,845 --> 00:39:10,405
Speaker 2: And I actually a part of me was thinking, don't go,

658
00:39:10,605 --> 00:39:13,685
Speaker 2: don't go. I think I knew a little bit that

659
00:39:13,725 --> 00:39:17,445
Speaker 2: things were wrong, but he gave me this big, sob

660
00:39:17,525 --> 00:39:21,645
Speaker 2: story on the phone about you know, being suicidal and whatnot.

661
00:39:21,725 --> 00:39:26,165
Speaker 2: And I met him at the Qui two Sports stadium.

662
00:39:26,325 --> 00:39:30,045
Speaker 2: He was at some school sports event, and he came

663
00:39:30,085 --> 00:39:33,045
Speaker 2: and sat in my car and told me in detail

664
00:39:33,245 --> 00:39:36,685
Speaker 2: about how he had tried to commit suicide and that

665
00:39:37,245 --> 00:39:41,925
Speaker 2: his relationship with her was really abusive and that he

666
00:39:42,165 --> 00:39:44,725
Speaker 2: just really missed me this whole time and he just

667
00:39:44,765 --> 00:39:47,765
Speaker 2: wanted to be with me again. And I just remember

668
00:39:47,885 --> 00:39:50,605
Speaker 2: it was horrible because he explained in great detail about

669
00:39:50,605 --> 00:39:54,165
Speaker 2: what it was like to actually try and commit suicide,

670
00:39:54,365 --> 00:39:58,085
Speaker 2: like how it felt, and that's obviously really devastating to

671
00:39:58,125 --> 00:40:02,725
Speaker 2: hear about anybody, So that really affected me. And he

672
00:40:02,765 --> 00:40:04,805
Speaker 2: asked whether he could come back to my house that

673
00:40:04,925 --> 00:40:08,645
Speaker 2: day after he had finished, and I said sure and

674
00:40:08,725 --> 00:40:12,485
Speaker 2: gave him my new address and he came over and

675
00:40:12,805 --> 00:40:15,525
Speaker 2: before I knew it, he'd sort of his way into

676
00:40:16,125 --> 00:40:19,885
Speaker 2: the house. I was living with my mum. We just

677
00:40:19,925 --> 00:40:25,165
Speaker 2: had a rental, and I remember actually he just started

678
00:40:25,445 --> 00:40:28,925
Speaker 2: moving his stuff into our house. Mom came home from

679
00:40:28,965 --> 00:40:32,365
Speaker 2: work one day and was just completely shocked because she's like,

680
00:40:32,405 --> 00:40:34,365
Speaker 2: what is all this stuff? And I said, oh, Paul's

681
00:40:34,365 --> 00:40:37,365
Speaker 2: moving in. He's he's had a hard time with you know,

682
00:40:37,405 --> 00:40:40,525
Speaker 2: he's broken it off, and you know, he wants to

683
00:40:40,525 --> 00:40:42,805
Speaker 2: just stay here until he gets on his feet, and

684
00:40:43,085 --> 00:40:46,845
Speaker 2: he just didn't leave from that point. And then I, yeah,

685
00:40:46,845 --> 00:40:49,845
Speaker 2: we ended up getting pregnant, so that was kind of

686
00:40:49,925 --> 00:40:51,685
Speaker 2: what led to that marriage.

687
00:40:52,365 --> 00:40:55,445
Speaker 1: So how old are you now at this point?

688
00:40:55,805 --> 00:41:00,125
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was twenty, so I just turned twenty that year, and.

689
00:40:59,645 --> 00:41:04,045
Speaker 1: So then the natural progression was seen to be that

690
00:41:04,125 --> 00:41:06,445
Speaker 1: you would get married. Whose idea was.

691
00:41:06,365 --> 00:41:11,445
Speaker 2: That, Yeah, it was his. But at the same time

692
00:41:12,125 --> 00:41:14,565
Speaker 2: he was trying to play me off against all these

693
00:41:14,565 --> 00:41:18,405
Speaker 2: other women that he had in his life. It was

694
00:41:18,445 --> 00:41:24,725
Speaker 2: really confusing. He told me he had actual conversations with

695
00:41:24,765 --> 00:41:27,845
Speaker 2: me where he'd be like, I don't know what to do,

696
00:41:27,925 --> 00:41:30,965
Speaker 2: whether to be with you, whether to be with this person,

697
00:41:32,085 --> 00:41:34,325
Speaker 2: or whether to be with this other person. You know,

698
00:41:34,405 --> 00:41:37,325
Speaker 2: an idle situation. I'd like to be with you, but

699
00:41:38,205 --> 00:41:42,045
Speaker 2: be technically married. It was just in hindsight, as a

700
00:41:42,085 --> 00:41:45,925
Speaker 2: grown woman, I'd look at that and just it's red

701
00:41:45,965 --> 00:41:50,525
Speaker 2: flags everywhere. Sure, but I felt so desperate to prove myself.

702
00:41:50,685 --> 00:41:55,125
Speaker 1: But here's the thing, Sarah, because you, in many ways,

703
00:41:55,285 --> 00:41:57,845
Speaker 1: I imagine, though you may have had the chron and

704
00:41:57,925 --> 00:42:01,885
Speaker 1: logical years, you weren't a grown woman, because a lot

705
00:42:01,925 --> 00:42:05,565
Speaker 1: of your relationship with him must have been cemented as

706
00:42:05,605 --> 00:42:09,325
Speaker 1: a fourteen year old. Yes, and because he's done that

707
00:42:09,565 --> 00:42:13,525
Speaker 1: thing of pulling away, so you know how it is

708
00:42:13,565 --> 00:42:15,805
Speaker 1: to be without him when you're so reliant on him.

709
00:42:16,085 --> 00:42:18,845
Speaker 1: Then when he comes back, you're like, I've got the prize,

710
00:42:19,005 --> 00:42:21,205
Speaker 1: I've got a chance of getting the golden ring.

711
00:42:21,485 --> 00:42:25,125
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was very much like that. And yeah, it's

712
00:42:25,125 --> 00:42:28,685
Speaker 2: interesting that you highlight about sort of being stuck in

713
00:42:28,725 --> 00:42:34,525
Speaker 2: that real adolescent mindset, and I feel like that was

714
00:42:34,565 --> 00:42:36,765
Speaker 2: exactly how it played out for our whole marriage. I

715
00:42:36,845 --> 00:42:41,045
Speaker 2: never felt like I really grew into a woman, or

716
00:42:41,045 --> 00:42:45,085
Speaker 2: when I tried to, that's when the big problems started.

717
00:42:45,725 --> 00:42:49,405
Speaker 2: You know, all the crucks in our relationship were forming because.

718
00:42:49,325 --> 00:42:51,725
Speaker 1: When you would try to assert yourself.

719
00:42:52,045 --> 00:42:54,605
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess I started, you know, after i'd had

720
00:42:54,725 --> 00:42:56,965
Speaker 2: we had two children, and I was starting to get

721
00:42:57,005 --> 00:43:02,325
Speaker 2: into my mid twenties. I suppose I started talking to

722
00:43:02,605 --> 00:43:05,325
Speaker 2: other women. I had started making other mom friends. I

723
00:43:05,365 --> 00:43:08,885
Speaker 2: suppose because when I was young, none of my friends

724
00:43:09,045 --> 00:43:11,765
Speaker 2: were in marriages with children that you know, I was

725
00:43:11,845 --> 00:43:15,165
Speaker 2: sort of the only one. I didn't have any anyone

726
00:43:15,245 --> 00:43:20,205
Speaker 2: to talk to about what marriage is like. And it

727
00:43:20,205 --> 00:43:22,405
Speaker 2: wasn't until I started making other mum friends who were

728
00:43:23,085 --> 00:43:25,565
Speaker 2: fair bit older than me that I started to realize

729
00:43:25,605 --> 00:43:30,325
Speaker 2: that things probably won't write and I wasn't in a

730
00:43:30,365 --> 00:43:34,765
Speaker 2: normal marriage, and so I did start to grow up

731
00:43:34,805 --> 00:43:36,605
Speaker 2: a little bit and try and have my own voice.

732
00:43:36,965 --> 00:43:41,245
Speaker 2: And yeah, the cracks really started forming them because that

733
00:43:41,325 --> 00:43:43,725
Speaker 2: wasn't well received. I used to get comments all the

734
00:43:43,765 --> 00:43:48,845
Speaker 2: time that I changed and that he wishes that he

735
00:43:48,925 --> 00:43:51,525
Speaker 2: really misses the young girl that would sit like a

736
00:43:51,565 --> 00:43:53,725
Speaker 2: puppy at the front door waiting for him to get home.

737
00:43:55,005 --> 00:43:58,325
Speaker 2: And I just thought, why would you actually want that, Like,

738
00:43:59,805 --> 00:44:01,125
Speaker 2: don't you want a woman to be with?

739
00:44:02,605 --> 00:44:07,485
Speaker 1: When you would tell your new mum friends your origin story,

740
00:44:08,445 --> 00:44:11,685
Speaker 1: did you edit it or what did you share with them?

741
00:44:12,205 --> 00:44:16,005
Speaker 2: Yeah? I initially when I would tell people how we met,

742
00:44:16,285 --> 00:44:18,805
Speaker 2: i'd make up some story like we met at university

743
00:44:18,965 --> 00:44:23,005
Speaker 2: or something that you know, I was young, but not

744
00:44:23,045 --> 00:44:25,365
Speaker 2: as young as I was. I suppose I still really

745
00:44:25,405 --> 00:44:29,165
Speaker 2: protected that secret of his. You know, even when I

746
00:44:29,205 --> 00:44:32,085
Speaker 2: started eventually going to counseling, I wasn't honest with my

747
00:44:32,205 --> 00:44:35,405
Speaker 2: psychologist at that time. It was just really drilled into

748
00:44:35,445 --> 00:44:39,605
Speaker 2: me about never telling anyone even at my wedding, there

749
00:44:39,605 --> 00:44:41,605
Speaker 2: were strict instructions that no one was to talk about

750
00:44:41,645 --> 00:44:42,205
Speaker 2: how we met.

751
00:44:42,525 --> 00:44:46,125
Speaker 1: Well, who was at your wedding, obviously, were there were

752
00:44:46,125 --> 00:44:47,405
Speaker 1: no friends from your past.

753
00:44:47,805 --> 00:44:49,525
Speaker 2: I had a couple of friends from it, like I

754
00:44:49,565 --> 00:44:51,845
Speaker 2: have my best friend Amanda there right, And then I

755
00:44:51,885 --> 00:44:54,965
Speaker 2: had another friend of mine, the one that actually it

756
00:44:55,005 --> 00:44:58,365
Speaker 2: first introduced me to him. Oh, he always really liked her,

757
00:44:58,525 --> 00:45:01,645
Speaker 2: so he was actually his suggestion to invite her. They

758
00:45:01,685 --> 00:45:05,285
Speaker 2: were probably the only friends of mine that were there

759
00:45:05,565 --> 00:45:08,565
Speaker 2: from back in the Harvey Bay days. All my other

760
00:45:08,605 --> 00:45:11,565
Speaker 2: friends that were in attendance where people I'd met in Brisbane.

761
00:45:12,005 --> 00:45:14,645
Speaker 1: And who did he bring? Who was on his side

762
00:45:14,645 --> 00:45:15,245
Speaker 1: of the aisle?

763
00:45:15,645 --> 00:45:18,965
Speaker 2: He had his family, He's got three brothers, his dad

764
00:45:19,005 --> 00:45:24,765
Speaker 2: and stepmom were there, and he had a table full

765
00:45:24,805 --> 00:45:27,845
Speaker 2: of friends that These were all people I'd never met,

766
00:45:27,845 --> 00:45:31,085
Speaker 2: by the way, even his family. I'd met his dad

767
00:45:31,245 --> 00:45:35,245
Speaker 2: once when I was seventeen. We were on our way

768
00:45:35,285 --> 00:45:39,005
Speaker 2: to some event and we stopped in. But other than that,

769
00:45:39,165 --> 00:45:41,445
Speaker 2: I had never seen these people until the day before

770
00:45:41,445 --> 00:45:44,005
Speaker 2: my wedding, and all of his friends the day of

771
00:45:44,045 --> 00:45:47,805
Speaker 2: the wedding, so I felt so uncomfortable. It was such

772
00:45:47,805 --> 00:45:51,125
Speaker 2: a weird experience to just I felt like I was

773
00:45:51,165 --> 00:45:53,845
Speaker 2: just copied and pasted into his life in a way,

774
00:45:53,965 --> 00:46:00,165
Speaker 2: like I just existed one day. But yeah, I was telling,

775
00:46:00,285 --> 00:46:02,605
Speaker 2: you know, my friends, like you can't say anything to

776
00:46:02,645 --> 00:46:05,725
Speaker 2: anyone about how we met. You know, this is a secret.

777
00:46:05,805 --> 00:46:06,805
Speaker 2: His family don't know.

778
00:46:07,125 --> 00:46:12,165
Speaker 1: So I don't understand his brothers and his parents didn't

779
00:46:12,205 --> 00:46:14,365
Speaker 1: know how you'd meet.

780
00:46:14,925 --> 00:46:18,605
Speaker 2: No, I don't even know if when they even found

781
00:46:18,645 --> 00:46:22,005
Speaker 2: out about me, to be honest, right, his dad, I mean, yeah,

782
00:46:22,005 --> 00:46:24,445
Speaker 2: as I said, I met him, we went dropped into

783
00:46:24,485 --> 00:46:28,245
Speaker 2: his house the end of grade twelve, But I don't

784
00:46:28,245 --> 00:46:30,685
Speaker 2: know if he remembers that would or knew that that

785
00:46:30,805 --> 00:46:33,965
Speaker 2: was the same person, because you know the years, two

786
00:46:34,005 --> 00:46:35,165
Speaker 2: years had gone by since then.

787
00:46:36,205 --> 00:46:36,445
Speaker 3: Gude.

788
00:46:36,485 --> 00:46:40,205
Speaker 1: That makes the wedding speeches difficult, doesn't it. Yeah, a

789
00:46:40,285 --> 00:46:43,725
Speaker 1: big part of weddings normally is the origin story.

790
00:46:43,965 --> 00:46:47,725
Speaker 2: Yes exactly. I forget who actually made a speech. I

791
00:46:47,725 --> 00:46:50,725
Speaker 2: know Amanda spoke on my behalf, and a couple of

792
00:46:50,765 --> 00:46:55,805
Speaker 2: my other girlfriends said something, but I think Paul might

793
00:46:55,845 --> 00:46:59,085
Speaker 2: have been the only one who spoke on his side,

794
00:46:59,165 --> 00:47:01,725
Speaker 2: maybe his brother, But again, yeah, it would have been

795
00:47:01,805 --> 00:47:05,885
Speaker 2: so surface level stuff because he knew nothing about me.

796
00:47:07,605 --> 00:47:11,285
Speaker 1: Don't go anywhere. Because after the break, Sarah talks about

797
00:47:11,325 --> 00:47:14,725
Speaker 1: the moment she found the courage to speak out and

798
00:47:14,805 --> 00:47:20,485
Speaker 1: how that decision changed the course of her life. You

799
00:47:20,525 --> 00:47:24,125
Speaker 1: know what's interesting is you mentioned earlier going to see

800
00:47:24,125 --> 00:47:29,725
Speaker 1: a counselor so within you, even in this period in

801
00:47:29,765 --> 00:47:33,045
Speaker 1: which really he's been really the only sun and rain

802
00:47:33,205 --> 00:47:38,485
Speaker 1: that's been falling upon you, a little seed of something

803
00:47:38,525 --> 00:47:42,525
Speaker 1: has been germinating within you that makes you seek out

804
00:47:42,565 --> 00:47:44,045
Speaker 1: counseling in the first place.

805
00:47:44,765 --> 00:47:48,685
Speaker 2: What was that, Well, it was actually something completely random

806
00:47:48,725 --> 00:47:52,725
Speaker 2: that got me in the door of counseling, and in hindsight,

807
00:47:52,725 --> 00:47:55,525
Speaker 2: I'm so glad it happened. I was actually in a

808
00:47:55,525 --> 00:47:58,645
Speaker 2: car accident and it was quite bad, and I got

809
00:47:59,045 --> 00:48:02,765
Speaker 2: hit by a truck and I ended up struggling. I

810
00:48:02,765 --> 00:48:04,445
Speaker 2: guess to get in a car for a little while

811
00:48:04,445 --> 00:48:09,205
Speaker 2: after that, So I went to seek out counseling to deal.

812
00:48:09,005 --> 00:48:13,125
Speaker 1: With because otherwise he would have been very anti you

813
00:48:13,245 --> 00:48:15,685
Speaker 1: going to capt.

814
00:48:15,045 --> 00:48:18,245
Speaker 2: Yes, one hundred percent, and he ended up stopping me.

815
00:48:18,445 --> 00:48:22,045
Speaker 2: So when I went to this woman, it was probably

816
00:48:22,685 --> 00:48:26,925
Speaker 2: within the first session, maybe the second, she started directing

817
00:48:26,925 --> 00:48:30,525
Speaker 2: the questioning more towards my relationship and I was wondering

818
00:48:30,565 --> 00:48:33,005
Speaker 2: why she kept bringing that up and not the accident.

819
00:48:33,605 --> 00:48:36,285
Speaker 2: And then yeah, she slips me a couple pieces of

820
00:48:36,325 --> 00:48:40,725
Speaker 2: paper on domestic violence and starts saying, you know, I

821
00:48:40,725 --> 00:48:44,565
Speaker 2: don't think you're in a healthy marriage. I do believe that,

822
00:48:44,845 --> 00:48:48,165
Speaker 2: you know, you're suffering a few of these things.

823
00:48:48,805 --> 00:48:49,325
Speaker 3: And I was.

824
00:48:50,005 --> 00:48:52,645
Speaker 2: Thought, oh, that's really strange, really like, I didn't know

825
00:48:52,645 --> 00:48:55,125
Speaker 2: how to take that. And the first thing I did

826
00:48:55,125 --> 00:48:56,805
Speaker 2: when I left is went home and talked to him

827
00:48:56,845 --> 00:49:01,605
Speaker 2: about it. And that's just how naive I was, I

828
00:49:01,645 --> 00:49:04,565
Speaker 2: suppose and young. I just went, oh, this is what

829
00:49:04,605 --> 00:49:07,925
Speaker 2: the psychologist just told me. What do you think you know?

830
00:49:08,045 --> 00:49:09,925
Speaker 3: And wanted his person tip of it.

831
00:49:10,365 --> 00:49:13,725
Speaker 2: What was his perspective by the way, Oh, he instantly

832
00:49:13,925 --> 00:49:17,205
Speaker 2: was dismissing it. And you know that's rubbish. She's just toxic.

833
00:49:17,645 --> 00:49:19,205
Speaker 2: She has no idea what she's talking about. Do not

834
00:49:19,285 --> 00:49:24,405
Speaker 2: go there ever again, you know. So I quickly asked

835
00:49:24,525 --> 00:49:27,045
Speaker 2: those sessions. I think I only had a you know

836
00:49:27,165 --> 00:49:31,285
Speaker 2: two with her and never went back. But it did

837
00:49:31,325 --> 00:49:34,085
Speaker 2: plant a seed. I think it was the first time

838
00:49:34,165 --> 00:49:38,285
Speaker 2: that I went, you know, maybe there is something not

839
00:49:38,365 --> 00:49:41,085
Speaker 2: quite right. And then when you start hearing it from

840
00:49:41,125 --> 00:49:43,605
Speaker 2: you know, the other the other moms and things like that.

841
00:49:43,965 --> 00:49:46,365
Speaker 2: It starts to get you really thinking about things.

842
00:49:46,725 --> 00:49:50,045
Speaker 1: And so what period of time had elapsed before you

843
00:49:51,085 --> 00:49:54,165
Speaker 1: did you resume counseling at some point?

844
00:49:54,685 --> 00:50:00,845
Speaker 2: Yes, I ended up going back to counseling sometime towards

845
00:50:01,685 --> 00:50:05,645
Speaker 2: the end of our relationship. He made me believe that

846
00:50:05,685 --> 00:50:09,645
Speaker 2: I had anger problems, so I thought, I'll go to

847
00:50:09,685 --> 00:50:12,485
Speaker 2: see a psychologist and get that sorted out. And I

848
00:50:12,485 --> 00:50:17,045
Speaker 2: saw this a different psychologist, and she started then saying

849
00:50:17,045 --> 00:50:19,605
Speaker 2: the same things as the first one and going, I

850
00:50:20,005 --> 00:50:22,685
Speaker 2: don't think you have a problem. I think you know

851
00:50:22,725 --> 00:50:25,765
Speaker 2: you're a victim here. But I still wasn't honest with

852
00:50:26,005 --> 00:50:28,245
Speaker 2: how the relationship started, so this is just pure we're

853
00:50:28,245 --> 00:50:29,925
Speaker 2: based on everything after that.

854
00:50:30,125 --> 00:50:32,085
Speaker 1: And how long had you been married at this point?

855
00:50:32,805 --> 00:50:37,245
Speaker 2: This would have been maybe five or six years into

856
00:50:37,285 --> 00:50:40,485
Speaker 2: the marriage, I'd say, like it was getting towards the end.

857
00:50:41,605 --> 00:50:44,165
Speaker 2: And then I stopped going to her again, I think

858
00:50:44,205 --> 00:50:46,885
Speaker 2: because she was saying all the same things as the

859
00:50:47,245 --> 00:50:50,965
Speaker 2: first one. And these people aren't listening to me. I

860
00:50:51,005 --> 00:50:53,205
Speaker 2: have a problem. They need to fix me. That was

861
00:50:53,245 --> 00:50:57,565
Speaker 2: my mindset. And then I saw I started seeing another psychologist,

862
00:50:58,325 --> 00:51:03,245
Speaker 2: probably the year that I ended up leaving him, and

863
00:51:04,165 --> 00:51:07,165
Speaker 2: I still wasn't honest with how the relationship started, but

864
00:51:08,285 --> 00:51:11,045
Speaker 2: I started mapping out had a real plan about I

865
00:51:11,045 --> 00:51:14,445
Speaker 2: think I had realized how bad the relationship was, and

866
00:51:14,525 --> 00:51:18,205
Speaker 2: i'd become aware that it was not healthy for me

867
00:51:18,965 --> 00:51:20,325
Speaker 2: and mapped out a plan with him.

868
00:51:20,765 --> 00:51:23,885
Speaker 1: At what point did you realize that it's not just

869
00:51:23,925 --> 00:51:26,445
Speaker 1: a matter of it being a bad relationship, but the

870
00:51:26,445 --> 00:51:30,885
Speaker 1: fact that the relationship could never be good because of

871
00:51:30,925 --> 00:51:34,405
Speaker 1: how it had begun and how you were brought to it.

872
00:51:34,845 --> 00:51:38,645
Speaker 1: At what point did those pieces click together? I imagine that

873
00:51:38,685 --> 00:51:39,605
Speaker 1: took a long time.

874
00:51:40,165 --> 00:51:43,165
Speaker 2: Yeah, it took a really long time, and I probably

875
00:51:43,245 --> 00:51:48,005
Speaker 2: didn't fully grasp that until after we separated and I

876
00:51:48,045 --> 00:51:53,765
Speaker 2: had some space from him, and I started really taking

877
00:51:53,845 --> 00:51:57,845
Speaker 2: note about I was reading a lot, I was informing

878
00:51:57,845 --> 00:52:00,765
Speaker 2: myself about things, I was talking to people a lot more.

879
00:52:00,765 --> 00:52:03,765
Speaker 3: I was probably felt like I could be.

880
00:52:03,925 --> 00:52:08,525
Speaker 2: More honest about how my relationship started, which opened up

881
00:52:08,565 --> 00:52:12,245
Speaker 2: a lot more conversation with people. And it was probably

882
00:52:12,285 --> 00:52:17,565
Speaker 2: in those first few years after leaving him that I

883
00:52:17,725 --> 00:52:22,845
Speaker 2: realized what had actually happened to me and that the

884
00:52:22,885 --> 00:52:28,125
Speaker 2: whole thing was just it was just manipulation. And abuse

885
00:52:28,205 --> 00:52:32,325
Speaker 2: the whole time. And yeah, as you say, a relationship

886
00:52:32,365 --> 00:52:34,965
Speaker 2: that starts like that can only continue like that. It

887
00:52:35,005 --> 00:52:36,485
Speaker 2: can't it can't change.

888
00:52:36,965 --> 00:52:40,245
Speaker 1: How was he? And I just want to point out

889
00:52:40,285 --> 00:52:44,005
Speaker 1: to our listeners that you've got a family court ruling.

890
00:52:44,325 --> 00:52:47,725
Speaker 1: Obviously you don't want to discuss in detail anything that

891
00:52:47,765 --> 00:52:53,645
Speaker 1: would jeopardize anything there. But how was he when you

892
00:52:53,885 --> 00:52:58,365
Speaker 1: started to grow into yourself, when you were having these realizations.

893
00:52:59,525 --> 00:53:00,085
Speaker 1: How was he?

894
00:53:02,405 --> 00:53:07,045
Speaker 2: I think I actually think I tried to reach out

895
00:53:07,085 --> 00:53:09,685
Speaker 2: to him and tell him how I actually felt and that,

896
00:53:10,445 --> 00:53:12,405
Speaker 2: you know, tell him what he did was really wrong

897
00:53:12,565 --> 00:53:15,565
Speaker 2: and how damaging it has been to me. I think

898
00:53:15,605 --> 00:53:20,525
Speaker 2: I attempted that once and he quickly shot it down

899
00:53:20,965 --> 00:53:23,205
Speaker 2: and sort of turned it into the fact that it

900
00:53:23,285 --> 00:53:27,805
Speaker 2: was me who instigated it all and in the beginning,

901
00:53:27,845 --> 00:53:31,245
Speaker 2: and I basically forced myself on him, like he was

902
00:53:31,285 --> 00:53:33,445
Speaker 2: really trying hard to get me to think that it

903
00:53:33,565 --> 00:53:36,845
Speaker 2: was my fault that it happened, and so there was

904
00:53:36,885 --> 00:53:42,965
Speaker 2: no accountability or any responsibility taken for that. And yeah,

905
00:53:42,965 --> 00:53:45,165
Speaker 2: that was pretty devastating, because I honestly think if you

906
00:53:45,365 --> 00:53:49,845
Speaker 2: just said sorry, I messed up, that was wrong, I

907
00:53:49,845 --> 00:53:51,485
Speaker 2: think I would have been able to process that a

908
00:53:51,485 --> 00:53:54,925
Speaker 2: lot more and move on with my life. But I

909
00:53:54,925 --> 00:53:57,605
Speaker 2: think it just became this constant power struggle, you know,

910
00:53:57,725 --> 00:53:58,925
Speaker 2: to regain that.

911
00:53:59,245 --> 00:54:03,645
Speaker 1: It's interesting though, because you say move on with your life,

912
00:54:03,965 --> 00:54:06,245
Speaker 1: but even though you may have been unaware of it,

913
00:54:06,565 --> 00:54:10,605
Speaker 1: you were moving on with your life because the work

914
00:54:10,645 --> 00:54:15,325
Speaker 1: that you started to do, which I imagine was beyond painful,

915
00:54:15,805 --> 00:54:20,845
Speaker 1: led you to going to the police.

916
00:54:21,085 --> 00:54:22,605
Speaker 3: Yeah, like, that's.

917
00:54:22,365 --> 00:54:27,005
Speaker 1: A remarkable Sarah. That's a remarkable isn't it. That is

918
00:54:27,205 --> 00:54:32,045
Speaker 1: properly someone who's very different from the girl who was

919
00:54:32,085 --> 00:54:36,365
Speaker 1: back here. Yeah, or that was the little seed inside

920
00:54:36,405 --> 00:54:36,925
Speaker 1: that girl.

921
00:54:37,685 --> 00:54:42,485
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it was incredibly hard for me to make

922
00:54:42,485 --> 00:54:46,645
Speaker 2: the steps to go to police. I un denied about

923
00:54:46,685 --> 00:54:49,645
Speaker 2: it for a long while, like years. It wasn't a

924
00:54:49,725 --> 00:54:53,485
Speaker 2: quick decision for me. I'm very, very blessed to have

925
00:54:54,405 --> 00:54:58,085
Speaker 2: Amanda by my side. She's always been my biggest advocate

926
00:54:58,325 --> 00:55:01,485
Speaker 2: and has had a belief in me that I had

927
00:55:01,485 --> 00:55:04,045
Speaker 2: the strength to do that, and almost feel like in

928
00:55:04,085 --> 00:55:05,605
Speaker 2: some way she kicked me in the pants and so

929
00:55:05,885 --> 00:55:10,605
Speaker 2: get to the police, you know. But it was about

930
00:55:11,165 --> 00:55:14,405
Speaker 2: three and a half years after I'd left him that

931
00:55:15,125 --> 00:55:17,805
Speaker 2: I was sitting in Amanda's kitchen with her one day

932
00:55:17,845 --> 00:55:22,125
Speaker 2: and we'd been talking about it, and I'd been getting

933
00:55:22,165 --> 00:55:25,805
Speaker 2: closer and closer I suppose to wanting to go and

934
00:55:25,845 --> 00:55:28,885
Speaker 2: tell somebody, and she said, why don't we just get them.

935
00:55:28,925 --> 00:55:30,965
Speaker 2: We'll call them and get them to come here. Then

936
00:55:31,005 --> 00:55:34,685
Speaker 2: it's less confronting, and I was like, okay. So she

937
00:55:34,805 --> 00:55:37,605
Speaker 2: rings the police for me and explains the situation, and

938
00:55:37,645 --> 00:55:39,565
Speaker 2: they said they were going to send a unit out

939
00:55:39,605 --> 00:55:42,405
Speaker 2: to her house, but we quickly got a phone call

940
00:55:42,525 --> 00:55:46,165
Speaker 2: back and they wanted us to go into the police

941
00:55:46,165 --> 00:55:48,925
Speaker 2: because just because of the sensitive nature of it, not

942
00:55:49,045 --> 00:55:52,565
Speaker 2: all officers may be equipped to deal with it. So

943
00:55:52,605 --> 00:55:56,525
Speaker 2: we went into the police station and then got sent

944
00:55:56,605 --> 00:56:01,165
Speaker 2: to the CIB at Fernie Grove, and that's when I

945
00:56:01,245 --> 00:56:08,045
Speaker 2: met Detective Julia for the first time and sat down

946
00:56:08,085 --> 00:56:11,925
Speaker 2: with her and just floated a bunch of my story.

947
00:56:12,485 --> 00:56:17,885
Speaker 2: She's probably the first person that I just was honest with,

948
00:56:19,605 --> 00:56:20,645
Speaker 2: just laid it all out there.

949
00:56:21,245 --> 00:56:23,645
Speaker 1: How was that, by the way, How did how did

950
00:56:23,685 --> 00:56:26,445
Speaker 1: that feel to you? For the first time, to tell

951
00:56:27,005 --> 00:56:27,565
Speaker 1: the truth?

952
00:56:27,885 --> 00:56:30,845
Speaker 2: It was scary because I knew once I band aid off,

953
00:56:30,845 --> 00:56:35,125
Speaker 2: there's no gone back, you know, But it was just

954
00:56:35,285 --> 00:56:39,805
Speaker 2: like a huge weight had been lifted, and mostly to

955
00:56:40,165 --> 00:56:43,925
Speaker 2: the way that she received that information. I think helped

956
00:56:44,205 --> 00:56:47,565
Speaker 2: me feel that way, because you know, I had had

957
00:56:47,605 --> 00:56:54,205
Speaker 2: a lot of instances throughout, you know, my separation where

958
00:56:54,205 --> 00:56:56,325
Speaker 2: I felt like I had a lot of slammed doors

959
00:56:56,325 --> 00:57:00,405
Speaker 2: in my face and wasn't getting anywhere within the institutions

960
00:57:00,405 --> 00:57:02,525
Speaker 2: and the systems that are available for.

961
00:57:02,525 --> 00:57:06,405
Speaker 1: People because people wanted to minimize what had happened or

962
00:57:06,445 --> 00:57:09,205
Speaker 1: it was too complex for them to entertain.

963
00:57:09,845 --> 00:57:12,725
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, you know, it is such a complex

964
00:57:12,765 --> 00:57:15,845
Speaker 2: situation when you know, I think a lot of people

965
00:57:15,885 --> 00:57:18,685
Speaker 2: saw it and since that there was a marriage there,

966
00:57:18,805 --> 00:57:22,885
Speaker 2: so it couldn't have been that bad. And I just

967
00:57:22,925 --> 00:57:24,925
Speaker 2: felt like no one was looking at the bigger picture

968
00:57:25,085 --> 00:57:28,165
Speaker 2: or had an understanding of what I had gone through,

969
00:57:28,325 --> 00:57:32,245
Speaker 2: and I found it really difficult to get protection in

970
00:57:32,325 --> 00:57:37,085
Speaker 2: place and to get help. I suppose, so to have

971
00:57:37,205 --> 00:57:42,485
Speaker 2: her sit there and just listen and receive that and

972
00:57:43,965 --> 00:57:47,565
Speaker 2: believe me and tell me that she's going to do

973
00:57:47,605 --> 00:57:50,005
Speaker 2: something with that information, I walked out of there just,

974
00:57:51,805 --> 00:57:56,165
Speaker 2: I don't know, speechless, Like I don't think even at

975
00:57:56,165 --> 00:58:01,205
Speaker 2: that point I ever thought that it would progress past that.

976
00:58:01,365 --> 00:58:04,645
Speaker 2: I didn't think it would that, you know, I told

977
00:58:04,645 --> 00:58:07,245
Speaker 2: the truth. I'd said my story to someone and it

978
00:58:07,325 --> 00:58:11,485
Speaker 2: was received and was huge.

979
00:58:11,885 --> 00:58:16,165
Speaker 1: And then so Detective Julia led you through the process. Then.

980
00:58:16,965 --> 00:58:19,605
Speaker 2: Yeah, so she got back in contact with me to

981
00:58:19,845 --> 00:58:22,965
Speaker 2: come in and make a formal statement. So when I

982
00:58:23,005 --> 00:58:24,645
Speaker 2: first sat down with her, it was more just a

983
00:58:24,685 --> 00:58:29,285
Speaker 2: general conversation where she got the gist of what had happened,

984
00:58:29,325 --> 00:58:32,685
Speaker 2: and she'd obviously gone away and spoken to her superiors

985
00:58:32,765 --> 00:58:36,165
Speaker 2: or whatnot, and so we sat down. We had a

986
00:58:36,165 --> 00:58:39,165
Speaker 2: couple of sessions of going through my statement. It was

987
00:58:39,925 --> 00:58:42,445
Speaker 2: I think the first time I sat down there were

988
00:58:42,445 --> 00:58:45,005
Speaker 2: two four hour blocks. It was about eight hours in total,

989
00:58:45,525 --> 00:58:47,125
Speaker 2: and then I had to go back a second time

990
00:58:47,165 --> 00:58:51,605
Speaker 2: and do a second statement. Yeah, so she really got

991
00:58:51,645 --> 00:58:55,085
Speaker 2: the ball rolling, I suppose, And you know, I still

992
00:58:55,085 --> 00:58:57,685
Speaker 2: can't believe that that she was able to get it

993
00:58:57,725 --> 00:58:59,565
Speaker 2: as far as it went to be honest.

994
00:58:59,365 --> 00:59:02,805
Speaker 1: Yes, how far it went was it went to court, yes,

995
00:59:03,045 --> 00:59:04,445
Speaker 1: and that was another ordeal.

996
00:59:05,645 --> 00:59:05,885
Speaker 3: Yeah.

997
00:59:05,925 --> 00:59:08,605
Speaker 2: So the trial was last year, just every year ago.

998
00:59:09,365 --> 00:59:12,885
Speaker 2: So I first made that statement the beginning of twenty eighteen.

999
00:59:13,445 --> 00:59:13,885
Speaker 1: Wow.

1000
00:59:14,005 --> 00:59:17,965
Speaker 2: He wasn't charged until twenty twenty wow, and then didn't

1001
00:59:17,965 --> 00:59:21,005
Speaker 2: go to trial until twenty twenty four. So it is

1002
00:59:21,285 --> 00:59:24,205
Speaker 2: a very very long process.

1003
00:59:24,285 --> 00:59:28,885
Speaker 1: In the trial. I mean you really the evolution of you,

1004
00:59:29,445 --> 00:59:34,605
Speaker 1: it feels like, continued throughout the trial in your was

1005
00:59:34,605 --> 00:59:37,765
Speaker 1: it a victim impact statement where you addressed the court

1006
00:59:39,285 --> 00:59:43,645
Speaker 1: and you spoke so not only eloquently, but the points

1007
00:59:43,685 --> 00:59:47,285
Speaker 1: that you raised were quite extraordinary ones because I gathered

1008
00:59:47,285 --> 00:59:51,485
Speaker 1: that in the case they were focusing on whether you

1009
00:59:51,485 --> 00:59:54,085
Speaker 1: were fifteen or whether you were sixteen. Yeah.

1010
00:59:54,925 --> 00:59:57,965
Speaker 2: The whole thing was this argument over a six month

1011
00:59:58,045 --> 01:00:01,725
Speaker 2: period basically, so there was no denial of a relationship,

1012
01:00:02,285 --> 01:00:04,885
Speaker 2: but they were, you know, defense were arguing that the

1013
01:00:04,925 --> 01:00:09,205
Speaker 2: relationship started when I was sixteen as opposed to fifteen.

1014
01:00:08,965 --> 01:00:11,965
Speaker 1: In which case it would not have been illegal, no,

1015
01:00:12,325 --> 01:00:15,685
Speaker 1: even though he still had a duty of care to you.

1016
01:00:15,925 --> 01:00:16,365
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1017
01:00:16,405 --> 01:00:21,645
Speaker 2: So Queensland's been very far behind with the special care laws.

1018
01:00:22,245 --> 01:00:25,325
Speaker 2: A lot of the other states have implemented special care

1019
01:00:25,405 --> 01:00:30,765
Speaker 2: laws years ago, which basically protect children up to the

1020
01:00:30,805 --> 01:00:34,845
Speaker 2: age of you know, sixteen seventeen when they're with people

1021
01:00:34,845 --> 01:00:38,805
Speaker 2: in positions of power, you know, like teachers, coaches, doctors,

1022
01:00:38,925 --> 01:00:43,925
Speaker 2: all that kind of stuff. Queensland have only just instigated

1023
01:00:44,005 --> 01:00:46,805
Speaker 2: laws to that effect. I think towards the end of

1024
01:00:46,845 --> 01:00:47,925
Speaker 2: last year was.

1025
01:00:47,845 --> 01:00:50,605
Speaker 1: That as a result of your case.

1026
01:00:50,805 --> 01:00:55,085
Speaker 2: Not directly mine. I think it's just become such a

1027
01:00:55,125 --> 01:00:58,765
Speaker 2: common thing. I feel like every time I'm on Facebook

1028
01:00:58,845 --> 01:01:03,125
Speaker 2: or something, I'm seeing articles of very similar stories of

1029
01:01:03,165 --> 01:01:07,045
Speaker 2: girls who have been groomed into these relationships from a

1030
01:01:07,085 --> 01:01:12,925
Speaker 2: similar age. And yeah, I think collectively, there's been so

1031
01:01:13,005 --> 01:01:15,925
Speaker 2: much of it happening that people have started advocating for

1032
01:01:16,005 --> 01:01:16,645
Speaker 2: those changes.

1033
01:01:16,685 --> 01:01:19,245
Speaker 3: So thankfully, finally we do have those laws.

1034
01:01:19,325 --> 01:01:24,885
Speaker 1: Now, you were face to face in court with Paul Yeap,

1035
01:01:25,845 --> 01:01:26,565
Speaker 1: and how was that?

1036
01:01:28,045 --> 01:01:28,725
Speaker 3: It was hard?

1037
01:01:30,165 --> 01:01:33,365
Speaker 2: Obviously I didn't look at him. I didn't want to

1038
01:01:33,405 --> 01:01:38,005
Speaker 2: look at him. I was allowed to have a support

1039
01:01:38,005 --> 01:01:42,965
Speaker 2: person with me. But what I didn't realize was that

1040
01:01:43,325 --> 01:01:48,085
Speaker 2: defense actually can vet your support person and prevent them

1041
01:01:48,125 --> 01:01:51,005
Speaker 2: from coming in, which I feel like defeats the purpose

1042
01:01:51,045 --> 01:01:53,285
Speaker 2: of even having a support person in the first place.

1043
01:01:53,445 --> 01:01:57,005
Speaker 2: So the night before I was meant to appear in

1044
01:01:57,645 --> 01:02:00,085
Speaker 2: to give my evidence, it was quite late at night,

1045
01:02:00,165 --> 01:02:02,605
Speaker 2: I was in bed. I get a phone call from

1046
01:02:02,605 --> 01:02:06,125
Speaker 2: the DPP saying that Defense have denied the support person

1047
01:02:06,165 --> 01:02:09,125
Speaker 2: I put forward, And I said, can they do that?

1048
01:02:10,005 --> 01:02:13,085
Speaker 2: And she said, yeah, they can, but they haven't given

1049
01:02:13,205 --> 01:02:13,765
Speaker 2: us a reason.

1050
01:02:13,845 --> 01:02:16,205
Speaker 1: Why do they have to give a reason.

1051
01:02:16,925 --> 01:02:20,085
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know if they have to give a

1052
01:02:20,125 --> 01:02:23,285
Speaker 2: reason or whether they just hadn't said it, because I

1053
01:02:23,365 --> 01:02:26,845
Speaker 2: was like, what reason is it that my friend can't

1054
01:02:26,885 --> 01:02:28,565
Speaker 2: come in? Because it was a friend that I'd made

1055
01:02:28,645 --> 01:02:31,685
Speaker 2: since moving to Brisbane, so she wasn't around in the

1056
01:02:31,685 --> 01:02:35,245
Speaker 2: time of the offense anyway, she said, oh, can you

1057
01:02:35,245 --> 01:02:38,445
Speaker 2: try and find somebody else? So I organized another friend

1058
01:02:39,125 --> 01:02:42,285
Speaker 2: to come, and both of these friends of mine actually

1059
01:02:42,285 --> 01:02:44,285
Speaker 2: came with me the next morning, so they were both there.

1060
01:02:45,045 --> 01:02:51,645
Speaker 2: Found out that morning that the other friend was also denied. Oh,

1061
01:02:51,685 --> 01:02:55,845
Speaker 2: and I said, why this doesn't make sense, and it

1062
01:02:55,925 --> 01:03:00,005
Speaker 2: was because they might be called up to give evidence themselves.

1063
01:03:00,445 --> 01:03:04,205
Speaker 2: And I'm thinking for what reason. They weren't even from

1064
01:03:04,245 --> 01:03:08,325
Speaker 2: Harvey Bay, they weren't around, Like what questioning could they

1065
01:03:08,965 --> 01:03:14,165
Speaker 2: possible we be needed for? So I ended up having

1066
01:03:14,245 --> 01:03:17,525
Speaker 2: to go in initially by myself without a support person

1067
01:03:17,525 --> 01:03:21,285
Speaker 2: because obviously this had happened so last minute. Prior to

1068
01:03:21,325 --> 01:03:24,445
Speaker 2: going in, I didn't have anyone else because a lot

1069
01:03:24,485 --> 01:03:27,485
Speaker 2: of other people that I had were already subpoena to

1070
01:03:27,525 --> 01:03:30,645
Speaker 2: give evidence. So my friends are madly on the phone

1071
01:03:30,685 --> 01:03:33,925
Speaker 2: trying to get somebody to come. Luckily, my friend's mum

1072
01:03:35,245 --> 01:03:38,325
Speaker 2: was able to come a bit later on in the day,

1073
01:03:39,165 --> 01:03:43,725
Speaker 2: so she wandered in sometime while I was getting cross examined.

1074
01:03:43,645 --> 01:03:46,205
Speaker 1: So she came as like just someone sitting in the course.

1075
01:03:46,325 --> 01:03:48,645
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's just someone that can just sit there

1076
01:03:48,685 --> 01:03:51,365
Speaker 2: so that you feel supported, you can look at them

1077
01:03:51,405 --> 01:03:54,885
Speaker 2: for that connection and stuff, which it was nice to

1078
01:03:54,925 --> 01:03:58,245
Speaker 2: have someone in there. It's such a confronting experience, and

1079
01:03:58,325 --> 01:04:01,805
Speaker 2: it just I was completely gobsmacked that I had to

1080
01:04:01,805 --> 01:04:05,325
Speaker 2: go in by myself because they preach about having all

1081
01:04:05,405 --> 01:04:09,605
Speaker 2: of these special considerations for victims of these crimes, one

1082
01:04:09,645 --> 01:04:13,165
Speaker 2: being support person that then no one ever tells you

1083
01:04:13,245 --> 01:04:18,125
Speaker 2: that the perpetrator can actually block those people from being

1084
01:04:18,165 --> 01:04:20,405
Speaker 2: there for you. So I didn't actually have a support

1085
01:04:20,405 --> 01:04:23,365
Speaker 2: person for you know, for half of half of that

1086
01:04:23,525 --> 01:04:24,485
Speaker 2: my evidence.

1087
01:04:24,645 --> 01:04:26,725
Speaker 1: How long was the trial, by the way.

1088
01:04:26,605 --> 01:04:29,045
Speaker 2: It went for the four weeks, over the full five days.

1089
01:04:29,285 --> 01:04:31,565
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then he was sentenced.

1090
01:04:32,045 --> 01:04:38,205
Speaker 2: Yes, so he was found guilty of five charges actually

1091
01:04:38,205 --> 01:04:41,805
Speaker 2: five charges I think of indecent treatment of a child

1092
01:04:42,165 --> 01:04:44,765
Speaker 2: and one charge of maintaining a relationship with a child,

1093
01:04:45,525 --> 01:04:48,925
Speaker 2: and then was sentenced to two and a half years

1094
01:04:49,045 --> 01:04:54,005
Speaker 2: but suspended, so one year, three month suspended sentence, so

1095
01:04:54,045 --> 01:04:55,765
Speaker 2: he only has to serve half of.

1096
01:04:55,725 --> 01:04:58,245
Speaker 1: It, right, so he's in jail now.

1097
01:04:58,445 --> 01:04:59,845
Speaker 3: He is still in jail at the moment.

1098
01:04:59,925 --> 01:05:04,165
Speaker 1: Yes, So how did that feel? Because that does seem

1099
01:05:04,725 --> 01:05:11,125
Speaker 1: like an extremely light sentence. However, it also amazing that

1100
01:05:11,165 --> 01:05:15,365
Speaker 1: he got sentenced, knowing what we know about the legal

1101
01:05:15,405 --> 01:05:18,885
Speaker 1: process and the treatment of yeah, young women.

1102
01:05:19,205 --> 01:05:19,805
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.

1103
01:05:20,205 --> 01:05:23,525
Speaker 2: The fact that it even made it a trial was crazy,

1104
01:05:23,645 --> 01:05:26,845
Speaker 2: because especially these historical cases, a lot of them don't

1105
01:05:26,845 --> 01:05:30,245
Speaker 2: even get that far. So the fact that we got

1106
01:05:30,245 --> 01:05:34,565
Speaker 2: a trial was enormous. But yeah, that being said, the

1107
01:05:34,605 --> 01:05:39,645
Speaker 2: sentencing was still I feel quite light considering what he'd done,

1108
01:05:39,765 --> 01:05:42,165
Speaker 2: especially in a position of power that he was in,

1109
01:05:42,485 --> 01:05:45,685
Speaker 2: where he's literally in charge of caring, you know, being

1110
01:05:45,685 --> 01:05:47,005
Speaker 2: a caretaker for a child.

1111
01:05:47,845 --> 01:05:51,845
Speaker 1: People often speak about the feeling of affirmation when there

1112
01:05:51,885 --> 01:05:54,605
Speaker 1: is a sentencing and when somebody is found guilty of

1113
01:05:54,645 --> 01:05:59,845
Speaker 1: something because for all those years where you were convinced

1114
01:06:00,525 --> 01:06:03,685
Speaker 1: by the external force of him that it was you

1115
01:06:04,365 --> 01:06:07,245
Speaker 1: and that there was nothing wrong. How did it feel

1116
01:06:07,285 --> 01:06:09,205
Speaker 1: when he was sentenced?

1117
01:06:09,405 --> 01:06:10,445
Speaker 3: We can't put in words.

1118
01:06:10,965 --> 01:06:13,925
Speaker 2: It was more when I heard that they'd found him

1119
01:06:13,965 --> 01:06:18,525
Speaker 2: guilty that I can't explain to you the feeling that

1120
01:06:18,565 --> 01:06:23,365
Speaker 2: came over me. It was just such emotion. I just

1121
01:06:24,085 --> 01:06:26,845
Speaker 2: I was buling my eyes out. I actually didn't go

1122
01:06:26,965 --> 01:06:31,445
Speaker 2: into the courtroom initially because I didn't want to be

1123
01:06:31,805 --> 01:06:35,085
Speaker 2: in there around other people. If he was found not

1124
01:06:35,085 --> 01:06:37,005
Speaker 2: guilty of everything, I didn't want to have. I didn't

1125
01:06:37,725 --> 01:06:40,925
Speaker 2: want to experience that in front of people. So I said, oh,

1126
01:06:40,965 --> 01:06:43,565
Speaker 2: I might just stay in the side room, and my

1127
01:06:43,565 --> 01:06:47,005
Speaker 2: friend said, well, I'll text you through the verdicts as

1128
01:06:47,045 --> 01:06:49,325
Speaker 2: they come through. And the very first text I get

1129
01:06:49,405 --> 01:06:53,645
Speaker 2: was guilty. Wow, and I just couldn't believe. I leaped

1130
01:06:53,685 --> 01:06:56,525
Speaker 2: up off my chair. I shoved my baby. I just

1131
01:06:56,565 --> 01:06:59,005
Speaker 2: because I just had a baby in February last year.

1132
01:06:59,405 --> 01:07:02,765
Speaker 2: So I shoved my baby to somebody and then raced

1133
01:07:02,765 --> 01:07:05,285
Speaker 2: in because I had to hear the rest. And yeah,

1134
01:07:05,765 --> 01:07:09,085
Speaker 2: there was only I think two charges that were not guilty.

1135
01:07:09,765 --> 01:07:14,045
Speaker 2: But I was just overcome by emotion and I was

1136
01:07:14,085 --> 01:07:16,645
Speaker 2: just so I was openly sobbing. I just it was

1137
01:07:17,325 --> 01:07:19,805
Speaker 2: I've never been that emotional in my life. I couldn't

1138
01:07:19,845 --> 01:07:24,205
Speaker 2: control it, but it was so completely validating to have,

1139
01:07:24,565 --> 01:07:25,685
Speaker 2: you know, they it's.

1140
01:07:25,485 --> 01:07:26,525
Speaker 3: Also very powerful.

1141
01:07:26,565 --> 01:07:30,405
Speaker 2: They the juries stand up all in a like one

1142
01:07:30,445 --> 01:07:34,325
Speaker 2: giant line, right, and the judge will get one person

1143
01:07:34,405 --> 01:07:36,725
Speaker 2: to read the verdict of each charge and then they

1144
01:07:36,765 --> 01:07:38,845
Speaker 2: all have to repeat it and it goes on and

1145
01:07:38,845 --> 01:07:41,445
Speaker 2: on and on. So you've sort of got twelve people

1146
01:07:41,485 --> 01:07:44,925
Speaker 2: there facing you in this line saying you know, guilty,

1147
01:07:45,205 --> 01:07:47,445
Speaker 2: and a few of them were making eye contact with

1148
01:07:47,565 --> 01:07:50,765
Speaker 2: me and sort of nodding at me like they were

1149
01:07:50,805 --> 01:07:53,805
Speaker 2: there and supporting me and what i'd gone through, like

1150
01:07:53,845 --> 01:07:56,645
Speaker 2: they understood it and that they had seen you yes,

1151
01:07:56,845 --> 01:08:00,485
Speaker 2: And that was incredibly powerful. It just I can't explain

1152
01:08:00,565 --> 01:08:06,245
Speaker 2: what that felt like. I don't have the words, but yeah, incredible.

1153
01:08:06,925 --> 01:08:08,525
Speaker 1: How is your life now?

1154
01:08:09,765 --> 01:08:12,285
Speaker 3: It's good, It's on its way.

1155
01:08:12,725 --> 01:08:19,045
Speaker 2: You know. I'm still still receiving counseling for everything. There's

1156
01:08:19,045 --> 01:08:22,205
Speaker 2: a lot to unpack, there's a lot of years. I

1157
01:08:22,205 --> 01:08:24,565
Speaker 2: think it'll be something that I'm doing for quite some time.

1158
01:08:24,725 --> 01:08:28,605
Speaker 2: But I've sort of reached the point now where I

1159
01:08:28,605 --> 01:08:31,925
Speaker 2: feel like it's time to have a voice and come

1160
01:08:31,965 --> 01:08:35,805
Speaker 2: forward with my story because I'm very passionate.

1161
01:08:35,485 --> 01:08:39,365
Speaker 1: And you're now doing work on behalf of other children.

1162
01:08:39,765 --> 01:08:42,885
Speaker 2: So yeah, So just this year, I've started my own organization,

1163
01:08:43,005 --> 01:08:47,565
Speaker 2: step In for Kids, basically coming up with educational programs

1164
01:08:47,645 --> 01:08:52,005
Speaker 2: that I can deliver in school settings for educators, students,

1165
01:08:52,165 --> 01:08:54,965
Speaker 2: you know, even just community members as well, just to

1166
01:08:55,165 --> 01:08:58,285
Speaker 2: educate them on the science of grooming what that actually

1167
01:08:58,325 --> 01:09:02,885
Speaker 2: looks like, especially in those teenage years. I think a

1168
01:09:02,885 --> 01:09:06,405
Speaker 2: lot of people forget how vulnerable teenagers are. You know

1169
01:09:06,565 --> 01:09:09,445
Speaker 2: a lot of the criticisms I've faced were that but

1170
01:09:09,525 --> 01:09:13,165
Speaker 2: you were fifteen, you know, like basically a grown up. Yes,

1171
01:09:13,765 --> 01:09:16,445
Speaker 2: but you're still a child, Like your brain is still

1172
01:09:16,445 --> 01:09:19,485
Speaker 2: developing into your mid twenties, and especially when you're dealing

1173
01:09:19,485 --> 01:09:20,965
Speaker 2: with these people in positions of power.

1174
01:09:21,725 --> 01:09:24,085
Speaker 1: I want to read you something. I mean, these are

1175
01:09:24,085 --> 01:09:27,285
Speaker 1: your own words. It's from a letter you wrote to

1176
01:09:27,325 --> 01:09:31,525
Speaker 1: The Australian. I think silenced and dismissed how the legal

1177
01:09:31,565 --> 01:09:38,565
Speaker 1: system minimizes women's trauma and referring to the trial, you

1178
01:09:38,645 --> 01:09:43,205
Speaker 1: said this. Throughout the trial, the narrative portrayed the relationship

1179
01:09:43,525 --> 01:09:49,205
Speaker 1: as a misguided love affair, attributing romantic feelings from my abuser,

1180
01:09:49,845 --> 01:09:54,525
Speaker 1: and portrayed me as an obsessive teenager with an infatuation

1181
01:09:55,005 --> 01:09:59,685
Speaker 1: to justify the perpetrator's actions. It was distressing to bear

1182
01:09:59,725 --> 01:10:02,525
Speaker 1: the blame as a child under the age of consent.

1183
01:10:03,365 --> 01:10:07,445
Speaker 1: I was exactly that a child. By the time I

1184
01:10:07,485 --> 01:10:14,085
Speaker 1: turned sixteen, groomy had ensnared me completely. There's very little

1185
01:10:14,125 --> 01:10:18,885
Speaker 1: acknowledgment of that when it comes to abuses of power

1186
01:10:19,045 --> 01:10:22,845
Speaker 1: like this, that a girl can be, in this case,

1187
01:10:23,605 --> 01:10:27,565
Speaker 1: judged for maybe having a crush on someone who should

1188
01:10:27,645 --> 01:10:32,205
Speaker 1: be a person, a paternal figure, who should be actually

1189
01:10:32,285 --> 01:10:35,125
Speaker 1: someone that you can feel like that about, and they're

1190
01:10:35,165 --> 01:10:39,245
Speaker 1: the adult, and they're like, that's okay, I will not

1191
01:10:39,285 --> 01:10:43,365
Speaker 1: abuse that power. You have changed, Sarah Copp things, not

1192
01:10:43,565 --> 01:10:48,005
Speaker 1: only for yourself, but for everyone who will hear your

1193
01:10:48,125 --> 01:10:54,565
Speaker 1: story and for the young women, the girls slash, young

1194
01:10:54,605 --> 01:11:01,525
Speaker 1: women who find themselves in positions as well that they

1195
01:11:01,605 --> 01:11:10,005
Speaker 1: shouldn't necessarily be put in. Yeah, your strength is formidable.

1196
01:11:10,765 --> 01:11:13,725
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do hope I can make a difference in

1197
01:11:14,885 --> 01:11:19,765
Speaker 2: someone's life, and even if that is anyone else out

1198
01:11:19,805 --> 01:11:23,805
Speaker 2: there that has gone through something similar that might still

1199
01:11:23,845 --> 01:11:28,005
Speaker 2: be keeping that secret and isn't sure if they're ready

1200
01:11:28,045 --> 01:11:30,605
Speaker 2: to come forward, Like if I can give someone the

1201
01:11:30,645 --> 01:11:33,605
Speaker 2: strength to make that first step and know that there

1202
01:11:33,645 --> 01:11:36,245
Speaker 2: are people out there that will listen and believe you,

1203
01:11:36,325 --> 01:11:40,605
Speaker 2: and you know, a chance to get justice, That's what

1204
01:11:40,645 --> 01:11:43,765
Speaker 2: it's all about. That's only hope that I can help

1205
01:11:43,925 --> 01:11:44,845
Speaker 2: people in that way.

1206
01:11:45,565 --> 01:11:49,205
Speaker 1: When you were sharing your story with me, it made

1207
01:11:49,245 --> 01:11:51,485
Speaker 1: me so angry that I felt like my eyes could

1208
01:11:51,525 --> 01:11:57,165
Speaker 1: pop out pop out of my skull. It was deeply

1209
01:11:57,205 --> 01:12:01,565
Speaker 1: wrong what happened to you. But the best thing you

1210
01:12:01,605 --> 01:12:04,325
Speaker 1: can do in life when something you have been wronged

1211
01:12:05,005 --> 01:12:08,285
Speaker 1: is to make it right on behalf of the girl

1212
01:12:08,405 --> 01:12:12,005
Speaker 1: that you were and the woman that you are. And

1213
01:12:12,125 --> 01:12:15,885
Speaker 1: my wish for you, and I'm sure that all our

1214
01:12:15,885 --> 01:12:19,365
Speaker 1: listeners will share it with me, is that you continue

1215
01:12:19,365 --> 01:12:22,645
Speaker 1: to dance. You really deserve to dance.

1216
01:12:23,445 --> 01:12:25,085
Speaker 3: Thank you make me emotional.

1217
01:12:26,005 --> 01:12:27,445
Speaker 1: Well, you've made me emotional.

1218
01:12:29,565 --> 01:12:32,525
Speaker 2: Yeah, I appreciate that. I think dance will always be

1219
01:12:32,565 --> 01:12:32,805
Speaker 2: in me.

1220
01:12:33,725 --> 01:12:35,765
Speaker 1: Well, you know when you were talking about when you

1221
01:12:35,805 --> 01:12:38,445
Speaker 1: were a teenager and how you were so exuberant and

1222
01:12:38,485 --> 01:12:41,645
Speaker 1: you thought you were too much. I think we'd all

1223
01:12:41,685 --> 01:12:43,245
Speaker 1: like to say that too much again.

1224
01:12:44,845 --> 01:12:46,925
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think you can get the dance out

1225
01:12:46,925 --> 01:12:49,365
Speaker 2: of me, that's for sure. I'm currently a dance teacher,

1226
01:12:49,565 --> 01:12:52,765
Speaker 2: so I'm passing that on to the next generation.

1227
01:12:53,365 --> 01:12:57,645
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for sharing yourself with us, and

1228
01:12:57,965 --> 01:13:01,045
Speaker 1: best of luck to you. Your life is going to

1229
01:13:01,125 --> 01:13:02,405
Speaker 1: blossom like a flower.

1230
01:13:03,205 --> 01:13:05,525
Speaker 2: Thank you very much, and you know I appreciate you

1231
01:13:05,605 --> 01:13:07,965
Speaker 2: having me on here so that I can share my story.

1232
01:13:08,285 --> 01:13:09,325
Speaker 3: So yeah, thank you.

1233
01:13:10,245 --> 01:13:13,885
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Sarah Copp's story today. Her

1234
01:13:14,045 --> 01:13:18,525
Speaker 1: journey is heartbreaking, yes, but it also is such a

1235
01:13:18,605 --> 01:13:23,125
Speaker 1: profound testament to courage and the power of taking action

1236
01:13:24,005 --> 01:13:27,605
Speaker 1: even when you feel at your weakest. Sarah's work with

1237
01:13:27,685 --> 01:13:31,245
Speaker 1: step In for Kids is changing lives, protecting children, and

1238
01:13:31,285 --> 01:13:35,165
Speaker 1: giving survivors a voice. She's proof that even from the

1239
01:13:35,325 --> 01:13:40,525
Speaker 1: darkest experiences, hope and change can emerge, and that courage

1240
01:13:40,925 --> 01:13:45,325
Speaker 1: isn't the absence of fear, but the determination to act

1241
01:13:45,605 --> 01:13:50,165
Speaker 1: despite it. I hope this conversation leaves you reflecting on

1242
01:13:50,325 --> 01:13:55,085
Speaker 1: ways we can support survivors, hold people accountable, and help

1243
01:13:55,125 --> 01:13:58,845
Speaker 1: create a safer world for children. Thank you, Sarah for

1244
01:13:58,885 --> 01:14:02,925
Speaker 1: sharing your story with such honesty and grace, and thank

1245
01:14:03,005 --> 01:14:07,525
Speaker 1: you for listening to No Filter. The executive producer of

1246
01:14:07,525 --> 01:14:11,165
Speaker 1: No Filter is Nama Brown. The senior producer is Free Player.

1247
01:14:11,725 --> 01:14:15,325
Speaker 1: Audio production is by Jacob Brown and video editing is

1248
01:14:15,365 --> 01:14:18,805
Speaker 1: by Josh Green. This episode was recorded at Session in

1249
01:14:18,885 --> 01:14:23,245
Speaker 1: Progress Studios and I am your host, Kate lane Brook.

1250
01:14:23,725 --> 01:14:25,925
Speaker 1: Thank you, as always for listening,