Speaker 1: Welcome to the kick Your Expert led podcast, helping you
Speaker 1: explore and learn everything about getting pregnancy, birth, and becoming
Speaker 1: a parent.
Speaker 2: On the podcast and our online pregnancy program grow My Baby,
Speaker 2: we share my experience of helping more than four thousand
Speaker 2: babies to be born.
Speaker 1: And our experience of running a women's health clinic and
Speaker 1: parenting for boys.
Speaker 2: We're here to help everyone to feel empowered in pregnancy
Speaker 2: and birth with real life, practical information.
Speaker 1: Welcome everyone. I'm Bridget Maloney.
Speaker 2: And I'm obstetrician doctor Patrick.
Speaker 1: Maloney, and today we're in a brand new studio.
Speaker 2: It feels good, doesn't it great? Isn't it?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's out in the country a little bit more.
Speaker 1: And there's guitars on the walls and a set of drums.
Speaker 2: So we might be branching out.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying you do not want me to sing,
Speaker 1: but I will if someone requests it.
Speaker 2: There's a banjo, yep, and a bunch of handmade guitars.
Speaker 1: It's very exciting, very exciting. So today is an exciting
Speaker 1: episode as well. Pattern.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're talking about egg freezing. Yeah, when you should
Speaker 2: why you wouldn't Does it work?
Speaker 1: Yep? Because it is a question that is on the
Speaker 1: lips of lots of people, because you know, we're having
Speaker 1: our babies later, we're finding our partner later. Maybe we
Speaker 1: want to go it alone, but we want to do
Speaker 1: that later. So yeah, let's dive into all those things.
Speaker 1: But first I want to ask Pat, why would someone
Speaker 1: consider to do this.
Speaker 2: Well, I think that the main reason is somebody who
Speaker 2: you really wants to have children and feels like they're
Speaker 2: getting to a point, perhaps in their thirties, where there's
Speaker 2: a decline in egg number and equality, or that they
Speaker 2: think that by the time they get to that point
Speaker 2: that there might be a problem with those things.
Speaker 1: And how would they know that there's a problem with
Speaker 1: say egg quality or quantity.
Speaker 2: Well, you can't really know. There are various tests that
Speaker 2: can be done, AMH levels and so forth, but those
Speaker 2: things are not terribly useful. What we really need to
Speaker 2: know is what are the goals of that individual woman.
Speaker 2: How old is she, is she currently in a relationship,
Speaker 2: how many babies does she want to have? And sometimes
Speaker 2: these are things that people know but know about already
Speaker 2: you know pretty clear about. And other times they're you know,
Speaker 2: in terms of that how many do we want? They're
Speaker 2: not so sure, especially if we're starting with someone who's
Speaker 2: outside of our relationship.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I suppose a lot of people look towards
Speaker 1: things like, oh, well, is it time for me to
Speaker 1: preserve my fertility freeze my eggs because I don't know
Speaker 1: what's happening. I don't know what my future holds.
Speaker 2: And that's the whole point. And once upon a time,
Speaker 2: at the very start of my career, you could preserve
Speaker 2: your fertility in a certain sense, but really only by
Speaker 2: preserving embryos. And to make an embryo you needed some sperms,
Speaker 2: and the whole problem with that is that that might
Speaker 2: have been watching the very thing you didn't have. So
Speaker 2: in those early days of IVF, you could freeze an
Speaker 2: embryo that had been created, so a fertilized egg, and
Speaker 2: that worked really well, and they could be they could
Speaker 2: be preserved as people. I'm sure, no, practically, and definitely
Speaker 2: the early experiments with freezing eggs were it didn't work.
Speaker 2: So they just didn't have the scientific technique necessary. And
Speaker 2: if you tried to freeze an egg, they would just
Speaker 2: break open and be lost.
Speaker 1: At the time or when people decided to.
Speaker 2: At the time, at the time, and of course, sperms freeze. Fine, yeah,
Speaker 2: they knew that back then as well. So the name
Speaker 2: of the game was always to try and work out
Speaker 2: how to get eggs to freeze, because it was that
Speaker 2: step that meant that a single woman could potentially, you know,
Speaker 2: take out an insurance policy against the expiration of her
Speaker 2: practical fertility before she was ready to use it.
Speaker 1: I'll take it back to me, Like, you know, I'm
Speaker 1: sure I'm not alone in thinking that I had a
Speaker 1: ticking time bomb. You know, I was always working against
Speaker 1: this loss of fertility at a certain age. But can
Speaker 1: you tell me a little bit about the decline of that,
Speaker 1: Like it's a rapid decline towards your later thirties, isn't it.
Speaker 2: Well, yes, the quantity and quality of the eggs do
Speaker 2: decline in your late thirties. The thing is, though, that
Speaker 2: societal changes are such that so many of my patients
Speaker 2: now I haven't even really turned their attention to starting
Speaker 2: a family until they're well into their thirties. One of
Speaker 2: the things that's also happened in the recent years that
Speaker 2: people are getting started much later is they want way
Speaker 2: fewer babies. So, for example, if you are thirty four
Speaker 2: years old, and wanted one or perhaps two babies, then
Speaker 2: it's not the same emergency as if you wanted six.
Speaker 1: I don't know if there's many people still wanting six.
Speaker 2: Well there's a few, but they start in their early twenties. Yes,
Speaker 2: it's so we're going to when we talk about this technology,
Speaker 2: we sort of wonder who it's for. In my experience
Speaker 2: with this, it's not as simple as saying that these
Speaker 2: are you know, women excessively focused on Korea who think
Speaker 2: that they can sort of push their career as hard
Speaker 2: as they can until their late thirties and then suddenly
Speaker 2: turn around and want a baby. That's really over simplifying
Speaker 2: the situation. I guess there's that's a little bit, but
Speaker 2: these we're talking about human beings with complex lives, and
Speaker 2: I would say the main thing that I deal with
Speaker 2: in my practice in regional Australia is just people who
Speaker 2: just have not found the right partner and they're trying
Speaker 2: and they want a family and that process has taken them.
Speaker 1: Awhile absolutely I think it is over used that it's
Speaker 1: a selfish decision for people to wait until that time,
Speaker 1: until they have a baby or whatever. It just simply
Speaker 1: isn't the right time for them.
Speaker 2: No, I don't think there's anything selfish at all about
Speaker 2: about having a baby at forty. Yeah, it's a deeply
Speaker 2: selfless thing to do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, says people who had their third and four at
Speaker 1: thirty nine and forty. All right, so someone has decided
Speaker 1: we'll go into a bit more depth what age somebody
Speaker 1: should maybe even consider freezing the eggs. But before they
Speaker 1: do that, let's talk about how it's done. What do
Speaker 1: people expect.
Speaker 2: Well, it's done in exactly the same way as a
Speaker 2: standard IVF cycle. Basically, you go and see a reproductive
Speaker 2: clinic like an IVF clinic. They give you some hormonal
Speaker 2: injections to take over about two weeks, and that causes
Speaker 2: your ovaries to make a bunch of mature eggs in
Speaker 2: one cycle in one month instead of instead of just
Speaker 2: one Yeah, and when those eggs are nice and ripe,
Speaker 2: you have a little ultrasound guided procedure to collect the
Speaker 2: eggs out of the ovaries before they have a chance
Speaker 2: to pop out.
Speaker 1: And that's called retrieval, isn't it.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly the same as with standard IVF cycle,
Speaker 2: except when they get the eggs out in a standard cycle,
Speaker 2: they mix them up with a sperm straight away, create
Speaker 2: embryos in the laboratory, immediately get the best embryo and
Speaker 2: put it in fresh and put the rest in the
Speaker 2: freezer to be thought out and news later on. And
Speaker 2: with the egg process, if we're going to preserve eggs alone,
Speaker 2: then they're frozen in a sort of a snap freezing
Speaker 2: process called vitrification. And that was the that was the
Speaker 2: breakthrough that allowed this to be done.
Speaker 1: If someone's listening to this episode, I want to help
Speaker 1: them understand what the retrieval process is. Can you just
Speaker 1: describe that procedure?
Speaker 2: Yees. So the process is quite well tolerated by patients.
Speaker 2: You come in on the right day when the IVF
Speaker 2: people have determined that the eggs are ready to go,
Speaker 2: and under some sedation, an ultrasound probe is put into
Speaker 2: the vagina, just like a transvaginal ultrasound that we might
Speaker 2: use in gynecology. And there's a little set up on
Speaker 2: the end of that ultrasound probe that allows a needle
Speaker 2: to be passed through the edge of the vagina and
Speaker 2: up into the ovaries and then the eggs can just
Speaker 2: be sucked out one by one out of their little
Speaker 2: eggs acts in the ovary and collected in the tube
Speaker 2: and pass through into the laboratory.
Speaker 1: Wow, And does somebody have sort of pain after that
Speaker 1: procedure or yeah, there.
Speaker 2: Is pain afterwards. It's like ovulating a whole bunch of
Speaker 2: times in one day, so that requires some pain relief
Speaker 2: for sure.
Speaker 1: And let's say it's somebody in their thirties, mid thirties
Speaker 1: or early thirties. I know, because the amount of eggs
Speaker 1: that you retrieve would be different if they're in towards
Speaker 1: their forties. But what would you expect. What's a good
Speaker 1: retrieval rate?
Speaker 2: Look, it varies enormously compared to the woman's age and
Speaker 2: the hormones that jin's been given. You can sort of
Speaker 2: tell in advance how many you expect to get off ultrasound,
Speaker 2: but to get ten to fifteen would be terrific. Bearing
Speaker 2: in mind that they won't all be suitable for freezing,
Speaker 2: they won't all freeze efficiently, they won't all be genetically normal,
Speaker 2: they won't all unfreeze at the end of the day.
Speaker 1: So Patty, before you mentioned once upon a time that
Speaker 1: they would freeze embryos and mbryos could freeze, is there
Speaker 1: a difference, or is embryo versus egg freezing because I'm
Speaker 1: assuming some couples decide early to do this process if
Speaker 1: they're not ready to have a baby.
Speaker 2: Oh, there's no question that you would freeze embryos over
Speaker 2: freezing eggs if you were a committed couple and you
Speaker 2: had access to the wherewithal to make the embryos. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so that's that's not a question. This is this is
Speaker 2: basically for people, you know, for a single person or
Speaker 2: for some other reason, doesn't have the access to the sperm.
Speaker 1: So, Patty, if somebody has, you know, got their ten
Speaker 1: to fifteen eggs, what happens next? What's the success rate?
Speaker 1: How many people expect to get a pregnancy from that?
Speaker 2: Well, the first thing we have to remember is that
Speaker 2: most people don't use them, So most women with frozen
Speaker 2: eggs will go on to have their pregnancy the old
Speaker 2: fashioned way and not require that eggs that are frozen.
Speaker 2: And then for those that do actually turn up to
Speaker 2: use them, around eighty to ninety percent of the eggs
Speaker 2: would survive thor and about fifty to eighty percent of
Speaker 2: those would be successfully fertilized, and then about twenty to
Speaker 2: forty percent of the fertilized eggs would actually go ahead
Speaker 2: and develop into an embryo, which is sort of the
Speaker 2: standard success rates in IVF. So you've got to start
Speaker 2: off with big numbers to wind up with small, usable
Speaker 2: numbers at the end of the day.
Speaker 1: So Patty, for those that have decided to go ahead
Speaker 1: with the pregnancy and they've got an egg and it's
Speaker 1: ready to go, it's now met up with the sperm
Speaker 1: and it's formed an embryo. How what happens next.
Speaker 2: Well, you can just thaw out those eggs one by
Speaker 2: one and fertilize them with semen from your new partner
Speaker 2: who you've found in the meantime. Then and that forms
Speaker 2: an embryo, and that embryo is transferred fresh into the
Speaker 2: urus in a procedure cord an embryo transfer.
Speaker 1: Yeah right, okay, And would you also need to have
Speaker 1: like hormone stimulation or anything for that transfer.
Speaker 2: You just make sure that the lining is perfect, is
Speaker 2: the perfect thickness to receive the transferred embryos. And then
Speaker 2: these days, there's a lot of stuff that goes on
Speaker 2: in IVF clinics, which I call them one percent is
Speaker 2: little things that they've developed along the way to help
Speaker 2: the transferred embryo actually take Yeah. Yeah, And there's been
Speaker 2: a number of those that have come in and out
Speaker 2: of popular use in IVF over the last dec so
Speaker 2: as they're trying to get over some of their rate
Speaker 2: limiting steps, you know, just do things just a little
Speaker 2: bit better at each little step of the way.
Speaker 1: So, pat, do you remember back in August twenty three
Speaker 1: that seems like yesterday, but it was nearly a year
Speaker 1: and a half ago, we had doctor Ralia lu who's
Speaker 1: a specialist in IVF, and we asked her the question,
Speaker 1: when does she see people in her clinic or when
Speaker 1: does she advise people to go and to have egg
Speaker 1: freezing if that's what they have decided to do to
Speaker 1: do in their life. Let's take a listen to what
Speaker 1: she said. The women that are coming to have egg freezing,
Speaker 1: what is the ideal age for that to happen, and
Speaker 1: are they coming as singles or are they coming as
Speaker 1: a couple and the couple aren't quite ready to have
Speaker 1: the baby or what's the most common scenario for you?
Speaker 3: The most common scenario is women coming as either singles
Speaker 3: or in a relationship not yet committed to parenthood, but
Speaker 3: couples do sometimes come together and consider both egg and
Speaker 3: embryo banking. The ideal age to freeze eggs, in my opinion,
Speaker 3: is in the late twenties or early thirties. Why not earlier, Well,
Speaker 3: you're definitely more fertile when you're younger, but you're also
Speaker 3: more likely to have fertile time ahead of you to
Speaker 3: naturally conceive, and you are more likely to have those
Speaker 3: opportunities they still available to you a little bit later
Speaker 3: on in life. And we don't want to be freezing
Speaker 3: eggs for everybody because it puts patients that risk of
Speaker 3: undertaking procedures they may never need and keeping eggs in storage,
Speaker 3: which can incur costs. What I would say is that
Speaker 3: when somebody is in their late twenties or early thirties,
Speaker 3: they're the most fertile they'll ever be from that time
Speaker 3: point forward, and they have some idea of when they
Speaker 3: might plan a first child, they wish to be parents,
Speaker 3: and they have a better notion of how useful having
Speaker 3: a supply of frozen eggs as an asset will be
Speaker 3: for them. And so I think it's that sweet spot
Speaker 3: between not yet having reached an age where fertility decline
Speaker 3: is really serious where you still have a reasonable overin
Speaker 3: reserve in most instances to get a good outcome from
Speaker 3: an egg freezing treatment, but also being able to look
Speaker 3: into your feuture think about how useful that asset will
Speaker 3: be to your future though.
Speaker 2: So I think that's really interesting and it's great to
Speaker 2: hear that. Again. One of the things, one of the
Speaker 2: comments I would make about that is that I guess,
Speaker 2: at the absolute peak of your fertility powers, when you
Speaker 2: might be the very very best egg collector you can
Speaker 2: possibly be, you don't know you've got a problem. And
Speaker 2: I think that that's relevant. Also, someone like Raley is
Speaker 2: a doctor in a reproductive service who sees people who've
Speaker 2: perhaps sought her out for that particular service. As a
Speaker 2: general gynecologist, I'm actually in the lucky old position of
Speaker 2: raising fertility preservation with people who have not considered that
Speaker 2: at all, and sometimes who don't think that it's a
Speaker 2: problem that they needed added to their problem with thank
Speaker 2: you very much. So it can be challenging to say
Speaker 2: to someone have you considered this?
Speaker 3: Yep?
Speaker 2: Some people go, oh my god, thank god you mention it.
Speaker 2: That's terrific. I'm so glad you brought that up, let's
Speaker 2: do that. And other times people say no, should I excuse.
Speaker 1: Me, I'm not that old exactly, And that is it?
Speaker 1: Because I don't know. I think we get a bit
Speaker 1: of a skewed representation of successful pregnancies in people's forties.
Speaker 1: What we don't see are people that perhaps are keeping
Speaker 1: their fertility struggles quiet, you know, because so therefore, I
Speaker 1: think it gives us a false sense of security that
Speaker 1: we will be fertile well into our late thirties early forties.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, that's a problem, and there are there is publication
Speaker 2: of data reasonably easily available that says how many babies
Speaker 2: born in Victoria Edge yet are born as a result
Speaker 2: of assisted reproduction. I would love to know and have
Speaker 2: it my finger tips. How many babies are born from
Speaker 2: a frozen eck, not a frozen embryo as part of
Speaker 2: an IVF cycle, to a couple experiencing a fertility properm
Speaker 2: But how many are born from a woman who's thirty three,
Speaker 2: wants three babies, think she's running out of time, freezes
Speaker 2: her eggs because she's single, meets a partner, uses those
Speaker 2: frozen eggs, yeah, and has her babies that way. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I haven't seen that data.
Speaker 1: All right, so you know, if we follow Riley's advice
Speaker 1: and maybe you know, late twenties or early thirties, we're
Speaker 1: thinking about having our eggs frozen, like, it's a pretty
Speaker 1: costly thing to do. It is cost I thought what
Speaker 1: we could do now is I did a bit of
Speaker 1: research different IVF clinics. I've got a rough estimate of
Speaker 1: what it costs. And what people have to be really
Speaker 1: aware of is often what they're quoted on, say a
Speaker 1: website is just about the process of freezing eggs. They're
Speaker 1: not adding things like the daybed, hospital, the anethetist, the
Speaker 1: storage costs, the medication costs.
Speaker 2: Yeah so, or even just going to see the doctor
Speaker 2: at the clinic in the first place visit. They tend
Speaker 2: to quote in terms of how much a cycle costs,
Speaker 2: and that involves mostly the laboratory costs. There are other costs.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So for all up, I think it's about seven
Speaker 1: and a half thousand dollars, with an ongoing storage fee
Speaker 1: of about five hundred and fifty six hundred dollars per year. Okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: so we watched one of those doctor shows. People might
Speaker 1: find this surprising, but we watch a lot of medical
Speaker 1: shows like House and one of the doctors remember her
Speaker 1: parents had said we will pay for you to have
Speaker 1: your eggs frozen, and she was shocked. She was like,
Speaker 1: you know, firstly, I'm not of the age that I
Speaker 1: should be even worrying about my fertility. Why are you
Speaker 1: wanting me to go and pop out babies. I've got
Speaker 1: this big career, don't you know. And then she came
Speaker 1: back to it and said, n actually it was a
Speaker 1: really good idea. What are your thoughts, doctor pat. If
Speaker 1: a parent said I will pay for you to have
Speaker 1: your eggs froz, do you think it's worth it.
Speaker 2: I think it's a brave parent who would bring it up. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but if you knew that was an issue within your family,
Speaker 2: then yeah, I guess why not. There's certainly I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, they're biggish figures. It's common in Australia for
Speaker 2: grandparents to pay for things that the current generation might
Speaker 2: be priced out of.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Oh, we're seeing that in the clinic, aren't we. We're
Speaker 1: seeing a lot of anti natal care being paid for
Speaker 1: by the grandparent.
Speaker 2: We do, so I guess this is no exception.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, So people might also ask, hang on
Speaker 1: a minute, can Medicare pay for any of this?
Speaker 2: I think Medicare gets involved and some of the providers
Speaker 2: get involved in a sort of a charitable sense. If
Speaker 2: you're having reproductive preservation done because you've got cancer, yeah,
Speaker 2: and you might be about to start a course of
Speaker 2: chemotherapy for your breast cancer, what have you. So the
Speaker 2: big providers of IVF have got a sort of a
Speaker 2: hotline that you can ring and say, my patient's about
Speaker 2: the start chemo. Can you give them a really quick
Speaker 2: and discounted or free cycle to put their eggs or embryos,
Speaker 2: depending on their circumstances in the freezer before we start
Speaker 2: that potentially destructive treatment.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Otherwise, if it's elective, there's no Medicare rebate on
Speaker 1: any of this.
Speaker 2: There is for IVF, there's not for egg freezing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, good, Now you did mention chemo, and
Speaker 1: I did want to say, like we've talked about your age,
Speaker 1: but what about those people that have got perhaps endometriosis
Speaker 1: or PCOS or a known problem that could cause fertility.
Speaker 1: Would you recommend that that's I think that they should
Speaker 1: consider to.
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, so that that's one of the things that
Speaker 2: comes into the decision. And it's definitely one of the
Speaker 2: things that drives my decision about whether to bring it
Speaker 2: up and whether to discuss it, and whether to encourage it.
Speaker 2: For example, there's a thing called an ovarian edometrioma, which
Speaker 2: is a form of endometriosis where a whole lot of
Speaker 2: endometriosis forms in a big blob inside the ovary and
Speaker 2: the woman develops essentially an ovarian cyst that's made out
Speaker 2: of endometriosis, and it's very destructive to ovarian tissue, and
Speaker 2: sometimes you might have one on both sides. So a
Speaker 2: woman with bilateral ovarian endometriomas might run out of fertility
Speaker 2: of usable eggs much sooner than a woman who had
Speaker 2: no endometriosis or the ordinary type of peritoneal endometriosis on
Speaker 2: the pelvic lining, and that woman I would definitely be
Speaker 2: talking earlier about egg preservation, and then the woman with
Speaker 2: ordinary endometriosis perhaps a bit later, and the woman with
Speaker 2: no reproductive problems other than her social issue probably the
Speaker 2: latest all.
Speaker 1: Right, and any other conditions like pcos or perhaps if
Speaker 1: they've had an earlier ectopic pregnancy, lost an overtube yea.
Speaker 2: Each one of those circumstances has some potential issues that
Speaker 2: would come into the discussion. Yeah, for sure. You know,
Speaker 2: if they'd lost one tube to an ex topic but
Speaker 2: the other side was fine, then their fertility is not
Speaker 2: greatly reduced. If they're still young, they've already got their partner.
Speaker 2: I don't think I'd be saying much other than try
Speaker 2: again when you're ready. Someone who'd lost both tubes is
Speaker 2: clearly going to need some reproductive assistance, and some of
Speaker 2: those other conditions severe phos and so forth. I think
Speaker 2: they all would come into what amounts to quite a
Speaker 2: complex and rich discussion.
Speaker 1: Good well, I think people will know by this episode
Speaker 1: what questions to ask their GP to begin with. Hopefully
Speaker 1: get onto a gynecologist so they can sort of deep
Speaker 1: dive on some of these issues, yes, and then make
Speaker 1: a really informed decision about whether they want to freeze
Speaker 1: their own eggs or not.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it used to be easier to wasn't possible, so
Speaker 2: you could just say bad luck, not bad luck, but
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. You could you could say, look,
Speaker 2: this is the limits of technology. Yeah, and then it
Speaker 2: became possible. And like a lot of technological breakthroughs, sometimes
Speaker 2: the technology arrives before we know exactly what to do
Speaker 2: with it. So one thing's for sure. Though for a
Speaker 2: long time it was considered experimental, it often didn't work,
Speaker 2: and then suddenly it did. Yeah. And as suddenly as
Speaker 2: it did work, it was being offered commercially.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So there's a Kate Stern is a leading a reproductive
Speaker 2: a professor in Melbourne who who I remember getting up
Speaker 2: at a conference and saying, just the take home message
Speaker 2: for your patients is this is no longer experimental. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's it's real. It works. So you know, the question
Speaker 2: is who should who should do it? But there's no
Speaker 2: longer a question of does it work? Yeah, and I
Speaker 2: think inspect that more and more people will look at
Speaker 2: this great.
Speaker 1: All right, as usual, people, we are at the end
Speaker 1: of the DM line on Instagram, which is at the
Speaker 1: Kick Pregnancy podcast. You can send us an email even
Speaker 1: off our website growmbaby dot com dot au. And if
Speaker 1: you've got any more questions about this, there's also another function.
Speaker 1: Spotify have this really neat function where you can put
Speaker 1: a question or a comment on the end of a podcast. Now,
Speaker 1: so heaps of ways to get in contact with us
Speaker 1: if you've got any further questions.
Speaker 2: We would love to hear from you.
Speaker 1: All Right, everyone that's us for this week will be
Speaker 1: back in your ears next week. We're looking forward to it.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening by for now. Hey, even though doctor
Speaker 1: Pat is well a doctor and we get lots of
Speaker 1: other doctors and other experts on our podcast, I just
Speaker 1: need to remind you that this this podcast is for
Speaker 1: informational purposes only. We share lots of medical insights and experience,
Speaker 1: but everything we talk about is general in nature and
Speaker 1: may not apply to your specific situation. Please always consult
Speaker 1: with your own healthcare provider for your individual medical advice.
Speaker 1: When you grow your baby