1 00:00:10,614 --> 00:00:13,254 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. 2 00:00:14,094 --> 00:00:17,174 Speaker 2: Mumma Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:17,214 --> 00:00:19,054 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. 4 00:00:22,374 --> 00:00:25,574 Speaker 1: Hey, I'm Taylor Strano. This is Mmma Mer's twice daily 5 00:00:25,614 --> 00:00:29,574 Speaker 1: news podcast, The Quickie. Today Ozzie's across the country will 6 00:00:29,614 --> 00:00:32,214 Speaker 1: tune in as one of the most talked about trials 7 00:00:32,254 --> 00:00:36,214 Speaker 1: in recent history draws to a conclusion, well at least 8 00:00:36,334 --> 00:00:40,134 Speaker 1: for now. Today, the sentencing for mushroom murderer Aaron Patterson 9 00:00:40,174 --> 00:00:44,174 Speaker 1: will be broadcast live, something almost never seen in our courts. 10 00:00:44,494 --> 00:00:47,134 Speaker 1: So how did we get here and why has Justice 11 00:00:47,174 --> 00:00:50,494 Speaker 1: Beel allowed a TV camera in the courtroom? Before we 12 00:00:50,534 --> 00:00:52,894 Speaker 1: get there? Here's Claire Murphy with the latest from the 13 00:00:52,974 --> 00:00:56,294 Speaker 1: Quickie newsroom for Monday, September eighth. 14 00:00:56,094 --> 00:00:59,374 Speaker 2: Thanks Taylor. The community in Melbourne's out of Northwest remains 15 00:00:59,374 --> 00:01:02,614 Speaker 2: in fear, with multiple perpetrators still on the run after 16 00:01:02,654 --> 00:01:05,654 Speaker 2: the fatal knife attack of two young boys. Fifteen year 17 00:01:05,654 --> 00:01:07,774 Speaker 2: old doal Eck Young and a twelve year old boy 18 00:01:07,814 --> 00:01:10,734 Speaker 2: were walking home from a local buskall match on Saturday 19 00:01:11,014 --> 00:01:14,174 Speaker 2: when they were attacked. Both died at the scene. Officers 20 00:01:14,214 --> 00:01:17,094 Speaker 2: believe the incident was a targeted attack, but are also 21 00:01:17,094 --> 00:01:20,174 Speaker 2: looking into whether it's a case of mistaken identity, saying 22 00:01:20,174 --> 00:01:23,014 Speaker 2: the children who were murdered were not members of any gang. 23 00:01:23,334 --> 00:01:26,134 Speaker 2: Dow's father visited the scene of his son's death yesterday 24 00:01:26,214 --> 00:01:29,494 Speaker 2: desperate for answers, saying his son was a basketball player, 25 00:01:29,574 --> 00:01:33,214 Speaker 2: not a criminal. Witness reports and CCTV footage show a 26 00:01:33,254 --> 00:01:36,054 Speaker 2: group of up to eight young males wearing face masks 27 00:01:36,054 --> 00:01:38,814 Speaker 2: and wielding machettes and other long blades, jump into a 28 00:01:38,854 --> 00:01:42,094 Speaker 2: car and flee after the attacks. Youth crime has been 29 00:01:42,094 --> 00:01:45,854 Speaker 2: increasing in Victoria, the latest statistics revealing crimes committed by 30 00:01:45,934 --> 00:01:49,974 Speaker 2: children aged ten to seventeen increased by nearly eighteen percent 31 00:01:50,014 --> 00:01:52,254 Speaker 2: in the twelve months to the end of March. It's 32 00:01:52,334 --> 00:01:55,454 Speaker 2: the second successive quarter of record youth crime rates since 33 00:01:55,534 --> 00:01:59,774 Speaker 2: data collection began in nineteen ninety three. Aaron Pattison's lawyers 34 00:01:59,814 --> 00:02:02,774 Speaker 2: have urged Justice Christopher Biale to show her mercy and 35 00:02:02,814 --> 00:02:05,414 Speaker 2: give her a chance to be released back into the community. 36 00:02:05,814 --> 00:02:08,574 Speaker 2: Patterson's fate will be revealed today when she's expected to 37 00:02:08,574 --> 00:02:11,334 Speaker 2: be sentenced to life behind bars. The fifty year old 38 00:02:11,334 --> 00:02:14,094 Speaker 2: found guilty of killing her ex's parents, Don and Gale 39 00:02:14,134 --> 00:02:17,494 Speaker 2: Patterson and Gail's sister Heather, and attempting to murder Gal's 40 00:02:17,534 --> 00:02:20,294 Speaker 2: husband Ian by serving them a meal laced with death 41 00:02:20,334 --> 00:02:23,894 Speaker 2: cap mushrooms two years ago. While Pattison's lawyers concede that 42 00:02:23,934 --> 00:02:26,494 Speaker 2: a life sentence should be handed to their client, they 43 00:02:26,534 --> 00:02:29,494 Speaker 2: are urging Justice Bill to consider a chance at parole, 44 00:02:29,814 --> 00:02:33,654 Speaker 2: citing her difficult and isolated conditions in custody. However, the 45 00:02:33,694 --> 00:02:36,294 Speaker 2: prosecution say her crime was so cruel she does not 46 00:02:36,374 --> 00:02:40,694 Speaker 2: deserve mercy. Detective Leading Senior Constable Neil Thompson will be 47 00:02:40,774 --> 00:02:43,694 Speaker 2: farewell that a funeral of the Victorian Police Academy today. 48 00:02:44,094 --> 00:02:46,574 Speaker 2: The fifty nine year old nature lover and thirty eight 49 00:02:46,614 --> 00:02:49,534 Speaker 2: year police Force veteran was reportedly on the brink of 50 00:02:49,614 --> 00:02:53,054 Speaker 2: retirement when he was allegedly gunned down by self professed 51 00:02:53,094 --> 00:02:56,134 Speaker 2: sovereign citizen Desi Freeman while attempting to serve him a 52 00:02:56,174 --> 00:02:59,494 Speaker 2: warrant at his Poor Punker property last month. Freeman remains 53 00:02:59,534 --> 00:03:02,214 Speaker 2: on the run in the Victorian High Country. Police over 54 00:03:02,254 --> 00:03:05,534 Speaker 2: the weekend announcing a one million dollar bounty for information 55 00:03:05,694 --> 00:03:09,454 Speaker 2: leading to Freeman's arrest, the largest reward ever offered in Victoria. 56 00:03:09,934 --> 00:03:13,014 Speaker 2: Members of the Victorian Police Force will form another guard 57 00:03:13,054 --> 00:03:15,694 Speaker 2: of honor for their fallen colleague today, the same as 58 00:03:15,694 --> 00:03:18,214 Speaker 2: they did for Senior Constable Vadam de Ward hot Art 59 00:03:18,214 --> 00:03:21,694 Speaker 2: on Friday, who was killed in the same incident. US 60 00:03:21,774 --> 00:03:25,014 Speaker 2: President Donald Trump has posted an AI generated image of 61 00:03:25,054 --> 00:03:27,414 Speaker 2: himself in the likeness of a character from the war 62 00:03:27,494 --> 00:03:30,814 Speaker 2: movie Apocalypse Now, but instead of the backdrop of Vietnam, 63 00:03:31,014 --> 00:03:34,454 Speaker 2: it's the Chicago skyline. The picture was posted on Trump's 64 00:03:34,494 --> 00:03:37,494 Speaker 2: social media with the caption Chicago about to find out 65 00:03:37,534 --> 00:03:40,854 Speaker 2: why it's called the Department of War with helicopter emojis. 66 00:03:41,174 --> 00:03:44,094 Speaker 2: The caption refers to Trump's plan to rebrand the Department 67 00:03:44,134 --> 00:03:48,094 Speaker 2: of Defense while also launching his aggressive anti immigration enforcement 68 00:03:48,134 --> 00:03:50,774 Speaker 2: campaign in the city. He also posted a quote from 69 00:03:50,814 --> 00:03:52,654 Speaker 2: the movie, but instead of saying I love the smell 70 00:03:52,694 --> 00:03:55,014 Speaker 2: of napalm in the morning, he wrote, I love the 71 00:03:55,054 --> 00:03:58,454 Speaker 2: smell of deportations in the morning. The Governor of Illinois 72 00:03:58,454 --> 00:04:01,854 Speaker 2: has worn Chicago residents that ice agents are surging across 73 00:04:01,854 --> 00:04:04,614 Speaker 2: the city of Chicago, saying the President of the United 74 00:04:04,694 --> 00:04:07,534 Speaker 2: States is threatening to go to war with an American city, 75 00:04:07,854 --> 00:04:10,374 Speaker 2: saying this is not a joke, this is not normal. 76 00:04:10,614 --> 00:04:12,894 Speaker 2: He went on to say that Trump isn't a strong man, 77 00:04:12,974 --> 00:04:15,854 Speaker 2: he's a scared man, and Illinois won't be intimidated by 78 00:04:15,854 --> 00:04:19,174 Speaker 2: a wannabe dictator. Kristin Cabot, the woman at the center 79 00:04:19,214 --> 00:04:22,094 Speaker 2: of the Coldplayed crowdcam incident that exposed her affair with 80 00:04:22,134 --> 00:04:25,894 Speaker 2: her married colleague, has filed for divorce from her husband. Cabot, 81 00:04:25,894 --> 00:04:28,414 Speaker 2: who's also resigned from her job at Astronomer, where she 82 00:04:28,454 --> 00:04:31,414 Speaker 2: worked alongside Andy Byron, the CEO and man she was 83 00:04:31,454 --> 00:04:34,654 Speaker 2: caught on camera with, filed for divorce on August thirteen. 84 00:04:34,974 --> 00:04:37,174 Speaker 2: The next hearing on her case is expected to happen 85 00:04:37,214 --> 00:04:40,174 Speaker 2: on November twenty, six, days after the pair were caught 86 00:04:40,214 --> 00:04:42,294 Speaker 2: on the crowdcam trying to duck out a view. When 87 00:04:42,294 --> 00:04:45,694 Speaker 2: they appeared, Coldplay frontman Chris Martin commenting that they were 88 00:04:45,734 --> 00:04:49,334 Speaker 2: maybe having an affair. Byron resigned from Astronomer. Neither have 89 00:04:49,454 --> 00:04:53,654 Speaker 2: commented publicly about the incident. Icon Dame Julli Andrews has 90 00:04:53,694 --> 00:04:56,174 Speaker 2: won an Emmy for her voice only performance as Lady 91 00:04:56,214 --> 00:04:59,854 Speaker 2: Whistledown in Bridgeton at the seventy seventh Creative Arts Emmy 92 00:04:59,854 --> 00:05:02,574 Speaker 2: Awards in LA. The eighty nine year old has been 93 00:05:02,574 --> 00:05:05,654 Speaker 2: nominated for being the voice twice before and once for 94 00:05:05,694 --> 00:05:08,254 Speaker 2: the same in Queen Charlotte, but has never won the trophy. 95 00:05:08,574 --> 00:05:11,814 Speaker 2: This time she beat Kazaria for The Simpsons, Mya Rudolph 96 00:05:11,814 --> 00:05:14,654 Speaker 2: in Big Mouth, alent Tutic for and Or, Jeffrey Right 97 00:05:14,734 --> 00:05:18,254 Speaker 2: in What If? And Invincible Stephen Ewen Andrews didn't attend 98 00:05:18,294 --> 00:05:21,094 Speaker 2: the ceremony, the actress still not having the opportunity to 99 00:05:21,094 --> 00:05:23,974 Speaker 2: meet any of the bridgeton cast yet despite being part 100 00:05:24,014 --> 00:05:25,334 Speaker 2: of the show since its inception. 101 00:05:25,774 --> 00:05:31,854 Speaker 1: Thanks Claire Next, how often do we televise courtroom proceedings? 102 00:05:34,414 --> 00:05:37,614 Speaker 1: This morning, Aaron Patterson, convicted of murdering three members of 103 00:05:37,654 --> 00:05:41,054 Speaker 1: her husband's family and convicted of the attempted murder of 104 00:05:41,094 --> 00:05:44,094 Speaker 1: In Wilkinson with a dish of death cap Mushrooms, will 105 00:05:44,094 --> 00:05:47,854 Speaker 1: face sentencing at the Victorian Supreme Court for the first 106 00:05:47,894 --> 00:05:50,694 Speaker 1: time in the court's history. That moment will be live 107 00:05:50,734 --> 00:05:54,574 Speaker 1: streamed across Australia. So how did we get here? The 108 00:05:54,654 --> 00:05:57,974 Speaker 1: mushroom murder case kicked off when Erin Patterson's home cooked 109 00:05:58,054 --> 00:06:01,614 Speaker 1: beef Wellington sent three relatives and a family friend to 110 00:06:01,734 --> 00:06:05,614 Speaker 1: hospital back in July twenty twenty three. Only one managed 111 00:06:05,654 --> 00:06:09,174 Speaker 1: to survive. Erin claimed innocence from the start, but after 112 00:06:09,254 --> 00:06:12,934 Speaker 1: months of investigation and headlines, police arrested her in November 113 00:06:12,974 --> 00:06:16,134 Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, charging her with three counts of murder 114 00:06:16,174 --> 00:06:19,734 Speaker 1: and one of attempted murder. The trial ran from April 115 00:06:19,814 --> 00:06:23,054 Speaker 1: to July, with all eyes on the Victorian Supreme Court, 116 00:06:23,254 --> 00:06:26,254 Speaker 1: where Erin maintained her innocence, putting the deaths down to 117 00:06:26,294 --> 00:06:29,934 Speaker 1: a tragic accident. In July twenty twenty five, the jury 118 00:06:29,934 --> 00:06:33,174 Speaker 1: handed down guilty verdicts on all charges, three counts of 119 00:06:33,254 --> 00:06:36,494 Speaker 1: murder and one of attempted murder. Last month, a plea 120 00:06:36,534 --> 00:06:39,774 Speaker 1: hearing saw Patterson back in court. At that plea hearing, 121 00:06:39,854 --> 00:06:44,574 Speaker 1: the victim's families spoke directly to the court through impact statements. 122 00:06:44,694 --> 00:06:47,534 Speaker 1: Some were read aloud, others handed straight to the judge. 123 00:06:47,574 --> 00:06:51,374 Speaker 1: The lunch's sole survivor, Ian Wilkinson, and Erin's a strange husband, 124 00:06:51,494 --> 00:06:56,094 Speaker 1: shared raw emotional accounts of their loss and the fallout. Now, 125 00:06:56,294 --> 00:06:59,574 Speaker 1: sentencing is set to be live streamed and televised, marking 126 00:06:59,614 --> 00:07:02,614 Speaker 1: an extraordinary moment for the legal system, the victims, and 127 00:07:02,734 --> 00:07:06,734 Speaker 1: everyone following this story. Normally, Australian law makes it illegal 128 00:07:06,774 --> 00:07:10,414 Speaker 1: to record or broadcast court proceedings, but give the public interest. 129 00:07:10,454 --> 00:07:13,374 Speaker 1: In this case, Justice Christopher Bilee has approved the live 130 00:07:13,454 --> 00:07:16,894 Speaker 1: broadcast to help increase understanding of the work of the court. 131 00:07:17,134 --> 00:07:21,094 Speaker 1: With only the judge visible on screen, his sentencing remarks 132 00:07:21,134 --> 00:07:24,654 Speaker 1: are expected to run for around thirty minutes. It's not 133 00:07:24,694 --> 00:07:27,254 Speaker 1: the first time the courts have gone live for big stories. 134 00:07:27,334 --> 00:07:31,494 Speaker 1: Chris Dawson and George Pell's convictions both pulled huge online audiences. 135 00:07:32,014 --> 00:07:35,574 Speaker 1: So what happens next for Patterson? The victims, families and 136 00:07:36,054 --> 00:07:40,334 Speaker 1: justice system prosecutors are asking free life sentence with no parole. 137 00:07:40,574 --> 00:07:43,174 Speaker 1: To tell us more, we're joined by Sophie Newham, principal 138 00:07:43,214 --> 00:07:46,014 Speaker 1: sources that are at New Legal Sophie, why has Justice 139 00:07:46,014 --> 00:07:48,574 Speaker 1: Bill allowed this sentence hearing to be televised? 140 00:07:48,894 --> 00:07:52,374 Speaker 3: There has been significant public interest in this case, as 141 00:07:52,414 --> 00:07:55,454 Speaker 3: you would know, there was media and just general members 142 00:07:55,494 --> 00:07:58,014 Speaker 3: of the public lining up to access the courtroom during 143 00:07:58,054 --> 00:08:02,134 Speaker 3: the trial. His honor has recognized the intense public interest 144 00:08:02,294 --> 00:08:04,814 Speaker 3: and he's decided that it would be in the public 145 00:08:04,814 --> 00:08:07,934 Speaker 3: interests to televise it so that the community has an 146 00:08:07,974 --> 00:08:10,894 Speaker 3: understanding about the work of the court and also so 147 00:08:10,974 --> 00:08:13,854 Speaker 3: that his judgment on the sentence has its proper context 148 00:08:13,854 --> 00:08:15,814 Speaker 3: and people can watch the entire thing. 149 00:08:16,174 --> 00:08:18,734 Speaker 1: Is it significant then that this has been televised? Does 150 00:08:18,774 --> 00:08:19,494 Speaker 1: that happen often? 151 00:08:19,894 --> 00:08:22,974 Speaker 3: I think it's significant that it's been televised. I mean 152 00:08:23,014 --> 00:08:25,934 Speaker 3: Supreme Courts in New South Wales and Victoria have been 153 00:08:26,014 --> 00:08:29,814 Speaker 3: live streaming significant cases. There was recently the case in 154 00:08:29,814 --> 00:08:33,134 Speaker 3: New South Wales of the police officer Sergeant White that 155 00:08:33,334 --> 00:08:37,454 Speaker 3: was all over YouTube on the Supreme Court website, and 156 00:08:37,534 --> 00:08:39,774 Speaker 3: Victoria started as well. The difference is that they're obviously 157 00:08:39,854 --> 00:08:44,534 Speaker 3: using a television camera instead of the in court cameras. 158 00:08:45,454 --> 00:08:47,294 Speaker 1: Don't we do this for every case? Then? If it's 159 00:08:47,334 --> 00:08:51,334 Speaker 1: not the norm, but it's also not completely extraordinary, why 160 00:08:51,374 --> 00:08:52,694 Speaker 1: don't we just do it for everything? 161 00:08:53,494 --> 00:08:56,974 Speaker 3: I guess the probably main thing is the resources, but 162 00:08:57,254 --> 00:09:00,974 Speaker 3: also the public interest informs what matters are going to 163 00:09:01,014 --> 00:09:06,054 Speaker 3: be publicized. The difficulty is you want to strike a 164 00:09:06,094 --> 00:09:10,334 Speaker 3: balance between you know, educating the community and allowing them 165 00:09:10,374 --> 00:09:13,214 Speaker 3: access to what happens in a court room, but also 166 00:09:13,294 --> 00:09:15,014 Speaker 3: you don't want it to become this kind of TV 167 00:09:15,134 --> 00:09:18,694 Speaker 3: drama Meybia skeptical, which you know you've seen in America 168 00:09:18,774 --> 00:09:20,894 Speaker 3: when they televise things like the Amber Heard and Johnny 169 00:09:20,894 --> 00:09:23,814 Speaker 3: Depp trial. I think in New South Wales and Victoria 170 00:09:23,894 --> 00:09:28,974 Speaker 3: we have more of a traditional approach to publicizing. 171 00:09:28,334 --> 00:09:31,374 Speaker 1: Things, So this will be the first time that anything's 172 00:09:31,414 --> 00:09:35,054 Speaker 1: been broadcast out of the Supreme Court in Victoria. Are 173 00:09:35,054 --> 00:09:37,494 Speaker 1: there other examples though, Like I can think of a 174 00:09:37,534 --> 00:09:40,574 Speaker 1: few high profile cases where we've put them on television 175 00:09:40,654 --> 00:09:42,734 Speaker 1: or live stream them for the public. What comes to 176 00:09:42,774 --> 00:09:43,534 Speaker 1: your mind. 177 00:09:43,694 --> 00:09:46,534 Speaker 3: Yes, so there have been recently the Josh pel case, 178 00:09:46,574 --> 00:09:49,734 Speaker 3: obviously Bruce Lehman that has been publicized as well, as 179 00:09:49,774 --> 00:09:52,094 Speaker 3: well as the matter of Sergeant Light. 180 00:09:52,534 --> 00:09:55,774 Speaker 1: It's interesting as well, though, right because those cases that 181 00:09:55,814 --> 00:09:58,334 Speaker 1: you've listed, they all come from different courts and different 182 00:09:58,574 --> 00:10:00,414 Speaker 1: sides of the law. Some of those are criminals, some 183 00:10:00,534 --> 00:10:03,134 Speaker 1: of them are civil. So there's no hard and fast 184 00:10:03,214 --> 00:10:06,854 Speaker 1: rule of how a judge might choose to televise on 185 00:10:06,934 --> 00:10:07,654 Speaker 1: not televised. 186 00:10:08,094 --> 00:10:11,254 Speaker 3: That's correct. I think what is important to note as 187 00:10:11,254 --> 00:10:15,454 Speaker 3: well is that obviously there are certain cases that will 188 00:10:15,454 --> 00:10:18,614 Speaker 3: not be publicized. So there are certain cases that the 189 00:10:18,614 --> 00:10:21,774 Speaker 3: court will be closed. That includes sexual assaults, that includes 190 00:10:21,774 --> 00:10:25,054 Speaker 3: domestic violence, matters involving children. So there are some limits 191 00:10:25,094 --> 00:10:29,454 Speaker 3: to what cases are even appropriate and permitted to be publicized. 192 00:10:29,894 --> 00:10:32,454 Speaker 1: So can you think of any reason why some people 193 00:10:32,894 --> 00:10:35,734 Speaker 1: might be opposed to a matter being televised. 194 00:10:36,214 --> 00:10:38,414 Speaker 3: Definitely, I think we can't forget that at the heart 195 00:10:38,454 --> 00:10:40,814 Speaker 3: of these matters that are being publicized, there are real 196 00:10:40,854 --> 00:10:43,574 Speaker 3: people who are being affected by these decisions, and I 197 00:10:43,574 --> 00:10:47,494 Speaker 3: guess they don't appreciate when members of the community and 198 00:10:47,534 --> 00:10:50,774 Speaker 3: perhaps media outlets as well, kind of make these things 199 00:10:50,774 --> 00:10:53,454 Speaker 3: into a bit of a spectacle, a little bit into 200 00:10:53,454 --> 00:10:56,174 Speaker 3: a TV drama, And I guess it's a matter of 201 00:10:56,174 --> 00:10:59,254 Speaker 3: striking a balance between informing the community but also respecting 202 00:10:59,294 --> 00:11:03,734 Speaker 3: those people's feelings and emotions in those situations. 203 00:11:04,094 --> 00:11:06,974 Speaker 1: What happens now that Aaron has been in jail since 204 00:11:07,054 --> 00:11:10,294 Speaker 1: before her trial started in April this year, where she'll 205 00:11:10,294 --> 00:11:14,374 Speaker 1: now remain. But once Justice Biil hands down his decision 206 00:11:14,414 --> 00:11:17,054 Speaker 1: later today, is that the end of the story? Is 207 00:11:17,054 --> 00:11:20,774 Speaker 1: that all over Red Rover for the Mushroom murders. 208 00:11:21,174 --> 00:11:23,894 Speaker 3: Oh look, I expect that her lawyers might have something 209 00:11:23,934 --> 00:11:26,534 Speaker 3: to say after he's honor hands down his decision, but 210 00:11:27,054 --> 00:11:29,014 Speaker 3: you know, they may be of course avenues for appeal. 211 00:11:30,334 --> 00:11:33,214 Speaker 3: But yes, I expect that the media interest in that 212 00:11:33,254 --> 00:11:36,774 Speaker 3: case will continue with things like books, podcasts, and documentaries. 213 00:11:37,294 --> 00:11:40,134 Speaker 1: Thanks for taking some time to feed yourlind with us today. Hey, 214 00:11:40,214 --> 00:11:42,934 Speaker 1: if you're enjoying The Quikie, make sure you're following us 215 00:11:42,974 --> 00:11:45,654 Speaker 1: and have your auto downloads turned on in your favorite 216 00:11:45,694 --> 00:11:48,974 Speaker 1: podcast ab so you never miss an episode like this 217 00:11:49,054 --> 00:11:52,734 Speaker 1: afternoon's Evening Headlines update, where we'll unpack the outcome of 218 00:11:52,774 --> 00:11:57,254 Speaker 1: Aaron Patterson's sentencing. The Quikie is produced by me Taylor Strano, 219 00:11:57,374 --> 00:11:58,414 Speaker 1: and Clare Murphy.