WEBVTT - The Sibling Estrangement Story We Can't Stop Thinking About 0:00:10.622 --> 0:00:13.382 You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. 0:00:13.822 --> 0:00:17.182 Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:17.222 --> 0:00:22.061 that this podcast is recorded on. So I'm editing a 0:00:22.142 --> 0:00:25.302 video about Labia and you guys are all saying it, 0:00:25.342 --> 0:00:27.622 and then I've got my phone and all of a 0:00:27.662 --> 0:00:31.982 sudden it goes silent, and I'm like, why isn't volume working? 0:00:32.502 --> 0:00:34.702 So I turn the volume up the loudest and I'm 0:00:34.742 --> 0:00:37.101 just like, why isn't it And I hear Maya's voice 0:00:37.702 --> 0:00:41.062 yelling LaBier from my car on the street. 0:00:45.822 --> 0:00:47.502 Hello, and welcome to MoMA. 0:00:47.542 --> 0:00:50.902 Me are out loud and to our Friday show, where it. 0:00:50.622 --> 0:00:52.462 Is a news free zone. 0:00:52.782 --> 0:00:55.822 Today is Friday, the twenty first of February, and I 0:00:55.862 --> 0:00:57.342 am Jesse Stephens. 0:00:56.902 --> 0:00:59.222 I'm mea Friedman, and I'm Amelia Lister. 0:00:59.542 --> 0:01:02.382 And on the show today the sibling feud that sent 0:01:02.502 --> 0:01:04.782 me out down a week long rabbit hole and left 0:01:04.822 --> 0:01:07.662 us asking is sibling therapy a thing? 0:01:08.182 --> 0:01:08.782 Should it be? 0:01:09.542 --> 0:01:13.262 Plus recommendation, something a bit sexy, something a bit controversial? 0:01:13.622 --> 0:01:16.782 And the book Amelia can't stop talking about and our 0:01:16.822 --> 0:01:19.181 best and worst of the week. From an embarrassing moment, 0:01:19.422 --> 0:01:21.942 one of us thinks she's beautiful. That's not me and 0:01:21.982 --> 0:01:26.142 the genes that transformed or wardrobe, but first meya. 0:01:26.262 --> 0:01:29.062 In case you missed it, languishing is back. 0:01:29.422 --> 0:01:32.302 You might be triggered by that word because it was 0:01:32.822 --> 0:01:38.062 a mid and immediately post pandemic term for that feeling 0:01:38.422 --> 0:01:42.102 that everything is just a bit well. You'll be surprised 0:01:42.102 --> 0:01:44.702 to know, or maybe you won't. It's officially a thing again. 0:01:44.862 --> 0:01:47.182 Australians are doing it very very well. We are champion 0:01:47.262 --> 0:01:49.982 languishers at the top of the leaderboard. A study of 0:01:50.062 --> 0:01:52.862 sixteen thousand people following their well being over a five 0:01:52.942 --> 0:01:56.302 year period found that one in five were languishing. So 0:01:56.462 --> 0:01:59.742 things like you might be struggling with your relationships, you 0:01:59.822 --> 0:02:02.662 might not be experiencing as much joy as you used to, 0:02:02.862 --> 0:02:05.462 You're not really setting the same amount of goals, You're 0:02:05.502 --> 0:02:07.862 missing that forward energy, and you feel a bit stuck 0:02:07.902 --> 0:02:08.621 and stagnant. 0:02:09.621 --> 0:02:11.381 Jesse, isn't this just called February? 0:02:11.542 --> 0:02:14.142 I think that might be part of it, but I 0:02:14.181 --> 0:02:17.822 also think there's something else going on. I was reading 0:02:17.862 --> 0:02:21.102 an article by Adam Grant that he wrote during COVID 0:02:21.142 --> 0:02:24.422 about this languishing phenomenon, and he said that it is 0:02:24.702 --> 0:02:28.582 the emotion that sits between depression and flourishing, and that 0:02:28.742 --> 0:02:29.622 a lot of people who. 0:02:29.742 --> 0:02:31.862 What's a pretty broad spectrum though. 0:02:31.942 --> 0:02:33.942 Yes, but he was saying that one of the biggest 0:02:33.942 --> 0:02:37.622 predictors for depression or anxiety in the future is that 0:02:37.662 --> 0:02:40.901 you're languishing in this moment. You don't feel like you're flourishing. 0:02:40.902 --> 0:02:43.022 And I was thinking about it in the work context, 0:02:43.502 --> 0:02:46.262 and how when you have a job that is very pecy, 0:02:46.422 --> 0:02:50.022 say it's very You're constantly distracted and pulled in different directions. 0:02:50.502 --> 0:02:52.501 It's really hard to get into a state of flow. 0:02:52.542 --> 0:02:55.742 And he says that flow is the antidote, like finding 0:02:56.181 --> 0:03:00.022 yourself able to immerse, even if it's in your personal life, 0:03:00.022 --> 0:03:02.742 if it's reading or gardening or whatever it is. Flow 0:03:03.222 --> 0:03:06.662 is the opposite to languishing. And I thought, I can 0:03:06.702 --> 0:03:10.062 see how we kind of we struggle with goal setting 0:03:10.262 --> 0:03:13.101 or feeling a sense of achievement or joy in the workplace. 0:03:13.382 --> 0:03:15.302 We're constantly going from one task to another. 0:03:15.542 --> 0:03:18.062 But Amreilya, isn't there a case to be made for 0:03:18.222 --> 0:03:21.102 languishing being just a symptom of we need to just 0:03:21.102 --> 0:03:22.702 stop and catch our breath for a second. 0:03:22.942 --> 0:03:25.902 Yeah, I've heard a lot about languishing lately like you have. 0:03:26.181 --> 0:03:28.742 Sometimes I hear gen Z refer to it as bed rot. 0:03:28.942 --> 0:03:31.382 I think that's part of the same phenomenon. I just 0:03:31.382 --> 0:03:35.542 sounded really old. And I also recall Megan Markle when 0:03:35.582 --> 0:03:39.342 she was interviewed on her Chua to Africa in twenty nineteen, 0:03:39.662 --> 0:03:43.542 and she distinguished between surviving and thriving. And really that's 0:03:43.582 --> 0:03:46.222 what we're talking about here, the difference between surviving and thriving. 0:03:46.582 --> 0:03:50.142 But we can't be flourishing and thriving and kicking goals 0:03:50.182 --> 0:03:53.302 and inflow all the time. Have we just become completely 0:03:53.702 --> 0:03:57.102 unable to accept any form of stacey No, no, no. 0:03:57.022 --> 0:04:01.822 But languishing is about numbness. It's about not actually feeling anything. 0:04:02.062 --> 0:04:05.622 I think this is all a little bit overrated. I 0:04:05.622 --> 0:04:07.902 think a lot of these trend stories, Oh we're all 0:04:07.942 --> 0:04:08.902 feeling one way. 0:04:08.982 --> 0:04:09.782 It means that the. 0:04:09.702 --> 0:04:12.262 Writer is in a certain life state and they feel 0:04:12.262 --> 0:04:12.662 that way. 0:04:13.422 --> 0:04:14.422 I have to be. 0:04:14.422 --> 0:04:17.541 The annoying one here and say I'm not currently languishing. 0:04:17.622 --> 0:04:20.142 And that's because, as of a couple of weeks ago, 0:04:20.222 --> 0:04:23.582 I have both children in primary school. Both of my 0:04:23.662 --> 0:04:26.502 children and I talk to women about this. In the 0:04:26.621 --> 0:04:28.342 lead up to this event, and they got this far 0:04:28.381 --> 0:04:30.741 off look in their eyes, and they would say, everything's 0:04:30.741 --> 0:04:33.382 about to change. You're about to discover your life again. 0:04:33.462 --> 0:04:36.222 You're about to feel in control again. And it didn't 0:04:36.262 --> 0:04:38.222 fully make sense to me because school still ends at 0:04:38.222 --> 0:04:40.782 three o'clock. It's not like I have this entire day 0:04:40.821 --> 0:04:43.342 to play with. But it's true. There's something about moving 0:04:43.421 --> 0:04:47.981 into that life stage where it's more predictable, it's less expensive, 0:04:48.501 --> 0:04:50.141 you know where your day's going to go in the 0:04:50.142 --> 0:04:52.741 shape of it for the most part, and I feel 0:04:52.741 --> 0:04:55.222 like I'm not languishing anymore. I think there's something to 0:04:55.301 --> 0:04:58.421 having small children, which is maybe endemic to languishing. 0:04:58.541 --> 0:05:00.902 I wonder if, and it's interesting because it's languishing in 0:05:00.941 --> 0:05:03.061 your professional life. I wonder if this is what I 0:05:03.101 --> 0:05:05.421 was referring to a few weeks ago when I talked 0:05:05.421 --> 0:05:08.622 about not wanting anything. I was really I was at 0:05:08.662 --> 0:05:10.901 work and going, I'm really it's not like I'm not 0:05:10.981 --> 0:05:12.981 enjoying it when I'm here, but I don't have any 0:05:13.342 --> 0:05:17.142 clear goals. You're living two distinct lives. You don't feel 0:05:17.142 --> 0:05:17.702 fully in it. 0:05:17.782 --> 0:05:20.942 I think languishing is maybe I heard Glennon Doyle describe 0:05:20.941 --> 0:05:24.261 it once when she was talking about in a slightly 0:05:24.262 --> 0:05:27.702 different context, being on the landing where she'd actually had 0:05:27.702 --> 0:05:29.902 a relapse in her eating disorder, and she said, I 0:05:29.941 --> 0:05:31.061 was sort of you know, if you look at that, 0:05:31.142 --> 0:05:33.181 or sort of falling down or going down the stairs, 0:05:33.702 --> 0:05:36.142 and then I'm at the landing where I'm not falling anymore, 0:05:36.142 --> 0:05:40.262 but I haven't started going up yet and recovering, and 0:05:40.342 --> 0:05:44.261 I like that idea of a landing. Languishing is almost 0:05:44.462 --> 0:05:46.501 you know, used to say, oh I'm languishing. That used 0:05:46.541 --> 0:05:49.022 to be something that was very indulgent, like I'm languishing 0:05:49.022 --> 0:05:52.341 in bed, like, oh, it's so delicious. Now it feels 0:05:52.741 --> 0:05:55.902 really negative, like bedrot and oh no, I'm languishing. And 0:05:55.981 --> 0:05:59.342 of course anything connected to the pandemic is languishing. But 0:05:59.421 --> 0:06:01.222 I think there's a lot to be said and we 0:06:01.222 --> 0:06:05.782 shouldn't demonize just not being productive or maybe that phase 0:06:06.142 --> 0:06:07.782 while you're going through a change. 0:06:08.181 --> 0:06:10.022 Yeah, I reckon, it's about how long you in it. 0:06:10.421 --> 0:06:12.222 I think that if you feel like you've been languishing 0:06:12.222 --> 0:06:14.101 for four years, you feel like your life isn't going 0:06:14.142 --> 0:06:16.861 anywhere and you have no control over what's happening, then 0:06:16.902 --> 0:06:20.301 that's probably a sign there's something wrong, whereas languishing, I've 0:06:20.301 --> 0:06:22.701 had it described to me as ebb and flow, like 0:06:23.022 --> 0:06:26.661 sometimes you're in flow and sometimes life ebbs. That's okay 0:06:26.662 --> 0:06:27.421 to sit in that too. 0:06:28.181 --> 0:06:29.981 When have I every time? I always say how great 0:06:29.981 --> 0:06:31.541 your house looks? Say look at all your new ship. 0:06:31.702 --> 0:06:33.662 You show you a meeting. This isn't here to sit 0:06:33.782 --> 0:06:36.741 and talk about this? What is that your. 0:06:38.941 --> 0:06:39.381 Seriously? 0:06:39.421 --> 0:06:41.461 What is wrong with you? 0:06:41.462 --> 0:06:41.702 You know what? 0:06:41.861 --> 0:06:46.502 David, you get murdered first for when it's no, you 0:06:46.541 --> 0:06:47.101 get murdered. 0:06:47.262 --> 0:06:49.141 David, you get murdered first. 0:06:50.022 --> 0:06:51.782 No you vote for me? 0:06:52.022 --> 0:06:53.382 No? Why? No? 0:06:53.741 --> 0:06:54.061 Why? 0:06:54.501 --> 0:06:54.541 What? 0:06:54.861 --> 0:06:54.941 Just? 0:06:55.142 --> 0:06:57.901 I love you? I really I love you, but I 0:06:57.941 --> 0:06:58.901 cannot stomach you. 0:06:59.181 --> 0:07:00.461 I'm the other spot. 0:07:00.902 --> 0:07:04.702 Sibling relationships, one of the most significant attachments of our 0:07:04.782 --> 0:07:07.942 lives and also one of our biggest blind spots, are 0:07:08.022 --> 0:07:12.222 having a moment. Liam and Noel Gallagher of Oasis fame, 0:07:12.422 --> 0:07:15.142 who had a fight fifteen years ago and then publicly 0:07:15.142 --> 0:07:18.662 feuded for more than a decade, have recently reconciled with 0:07:18.982 --> 0:07:22.742 their tour coming later this year. But the story that 0:07:22.782 --> 0:07:26.701 got us thinking about the complexity of sibling relationships this week, 0:07:26.821 --> 0:07:31.462 with the explosive accounts being shared by the Murdocks who 0:07:31.502 --> 0:07:35.662 managed to make succession look like play school. Maya, you 0:07:35.742 --> 0:07:38.622 have fallen into this rabbit hole, very very deep. We've 0:07:38.662 --> 0:07:41.342 been trying to get you out. Can you briefly explain 0:07:41.381 --> 0:07:44.742 to us what has happened with the Murdock siblings and 0:07:44.782 --> 0:07:47.382 why their names are suddenly everywhere? Because wasn't it It was 0:07:47.422 --> 0:07:49.262 New York Times, it was The Atlantic. I was seeing 0:07:49.302 --> 0:07:50.902 it all over the Sydney Morning Herald and the age 0:07:50.941 --> 0:07:51.622 over the weekend. 0:07:52.302 --> 0:07:55.662 The weekend was like my super Bowl because twenty eight 0:07:55.742 --> 0:08:01.462 thousand words of Murdock gossip or succession really gossip, dropped 0:08:01.502 --> 0:08:03.141 over the weekend. As you said, there were these two 0:08:03.182 --> 0:08:06.262 very big stories based on all the transcripts that have 0:08:06.342 --> 0:08:09.062 come out of a big court case between different members 0:08:09.102 --> 0:08:12.142 of the murder family against each other, and also an 0:08:12.142 --> 0:08:14.982 interview that James Murdock, who is the youngest of Rupert 0:08:15.062 --> 0:08:18.502 Murdock's sons, he gave to The Atlantic and he's been talking, 0:08:18.542 --> 0:08:20.182 He and his wife have been talking to his journalists 0:08:20.182 --> 0:08:22.622 for a year about all of this stuff, about his 0:08:22.821 --> 0:08:25.742 estrangement and about the estrangement from not just his father 0:08:25.821 --> 0:08:29.822 but also his brother, and the various estrangements between all 0:08:29.862 --> 0:08:31.862 the different siblings at different times. 0:08:32.022 --> 0:08:34.182 Miya, can I just interrupt and say, it's so interesting 0:08:34.222 --> 0:08:37.422 he chose to talk to that particular writer, Mackay Coppins 0:08:37.422 --> 0:08:40.862 at The Atlantic, because that writer is most well known 0:08:40.982 --> 0:08:46.542 for writing very sympathetically and very fairly about the Republican 0:08:46.862 --> 0:08:49.742 right in the US, and specifically about the influence of 0:08:49.742 --> 0:08:53.622 Evangelical Christianity on the Republican right in the US. And 0:08:53.662 --> 0:08:56.262 I find it fascinating that he chose someone who he 0:08:56.342 --> 0:08:59.142 must know his dad's probably quite sympathetic with a lot 0:08:59.142 --> 0:09:01.262 of these causes that this reporter writes about. 0:09:01.382 --> 0:09:04.502 Right, So he didn't choose a well known liberal commentation. 0:09:04.622 --> 0:09:04.862 Yeah. 0:09:05.022 --> 0:09:05.222 Right. 0:09:05.782 --> 0:09:08.862 The whole thing was just extraordinary because, you know, in 0:09:08.942 --> 0:09:11.182 succession was huge, as it has been for the last 0:09:11.222 --> 0:09:13.902 few years, there've been a lot of speculation that it 0:09:13.942 --> 0:09:16.902 was based on the Murdocks and that people within the 0:09:16.982 --> 0:09:20.862 Murdoch family suspected of each other of leaking to the writers. 0:09:21.342 --> 0:09:24.142 It's now alleged in this one of these articles that 0:09:24.182 --> 0:09:26.182 perhaps it was one of Liz Murdocks, one of the 0:09:26.302 --> 0:09:29.822 daughters her ex husband, who was leaking. But what was 0:09:30.022 --> 0:09:32.222 so interesting about this and what sort of was at 0:09:32.262 --> 0:09:33.942 the heart of it is that you know, in the 0:09:34.022 --> 0:09:37.902 last season of Succession Logan, the patriarch dies and all 0:09:37.942 --> 0:09:40.782 of his children aren't ready for what to do, and 0:09:40.822 --> 0:09:42.742 it's a bit of a shit show. So apparently the 0:09:42.822 --> 0:09:45.062 Murdocks when they watched it, some of the Murdock siblings 0:09:45.102 --> 0:09:46.502 watched it and went, oh shit, what are we going 0:09:46.542 --> 0:09:48.862 to do when dad dies? So it's a case of 0:09:49.262 --> 0:09:52.102 art imitating life that then imitates art because they then 0:09:52.302 --> 0:09:54.982 tried to draw up planned so that they wouldn't end 0:09:55.062 --> 0:09:56.662 up like what was depicted on. 0:09:56.622 --> 0:09:59.422 This Cree show, as it stands, right, So they didn't 0:09:59.422 --> 0:10:02.742 tell Ruper. I read some of this over the weekend. 0:10:02.782 --> 0:10:05.142 So as it stands, there are I think six siblings, 0:10:05.182 --> 0:10:08.382 but the four so you've got Prue, You've got Liz, James, 0:10:08.382 --> 0:10:10.342 and Lachlan, who all have the same those three have 0:10:10.382 --> 0:10:10.902 the same mother. 0:10:11.222 --> 0:10:13.022 Yeah, those four eldest children. 0:10:13.102 --> 0:10:16.662 Prue his first marriage, and then Liz, Lachlan and James 0:10:16.742 --> 0:10:19.102 are from his second marriage to Anna Murdoch. 0:10:19.382 --> 0:10:23.062 So those four are part of a trust and they 0:10:23.102 --> 0:10:27.422 get sort of a vote in what happens to the Murdoch. 0:10:27.182 --> 0:10:30.302 Correct, So all six of his children, this trust was 0:10:30.302 --> 0:10:33.502 written before his youngest two children with Wendy Dang, Grace 0:10:33.502 --> 0:10:35.902 and Chloe, were born. They're now in their early twenties. 0:10:35.902 --> 0:10:37.862 But it was the way for Anna Murdoch when she 0:10:37.982 --> 0:10:41.222 divorced Rupert. Wasn't her decision to divorce. She wanted to 0:10:41.262 --> 0:10:45.702 secure the future of her three children and stepdaughter pru 0:10:45.702 --> 0:10:50.182 who she'd raised as being the equal beneficiaries of Rupert's 0:10:50.182 --> 0:10:53.742 share after he dies. So what happens is that even 0:10:53.782 --> 0:10:57.142 though all six of his children have equal financial share, 0:10:57.502 --> 0:10:59.342 only those four have voting rights. 0:10:59.622 --> 0:11:01.822 Okay, so it comes down to voting rights, and the 0:11:01.862 --> 0:11:04.422 big fallout, as far as I could see, is between 0:11:04.582 --> 0:11:06.102 Lachlan and James. 0:11:06.662 --> 0:11:06.782 Yes. 0:11:06.942 --> 0:11:10.582 And what was really revealing and James and father, Yes, 0:11:11.062 --> 0:11:14.342 was James saying the falling out with Lachlan wasn't an accident. 0:11:14.582 --> 0:11:17.822 My father kind of wanted this. He brought us up 0:11:17.942 --> 0:11:19.742 to be at each other's throat exactly. 0:11:19.822 --> 0:11:22.702 So Rupert, who inherited his company from his father and 0:11:23.022 --> 0:11:28.262 grew it enormously, has always played particularly his three middle children, Liz, 0:11:28.542 --> 0:11:31.302 James and Lachland. James and Lochlan are only fifteen months apart. 0:11:31.342 --> 0:11:33.662 They're both in their early fifties. Now, but since they 0:11:33.662 --> 0:11:36.102 were in their sort of teens or early twenties, he's 0:11:36.102 --> 0:11:38.382 always played them or the three of them off against 0:11:38.422 --> 0:11:41.382 each other as to who would be the heir apparent, 0:11:41.902 --> 0:11:45.222 exactly how it goes in succession. It's interesting it never 0:11:45.222 --> 0:11:47.742 occurred to him that it would be Liz. James says 0:11:47.742 --> 0:11:50.302 his father's a misogynist and doesn't believe that his daughters, 0:11:50.302 --> 0:11:53.142 his adult daughters, are even capable of making decisions about 0:11:53.142 --> 0:11:55.782 their own lives, lit alone running a company. So it 0:11:55.822 --> 0:11:58.542 was always between James and Lachlan, and at one stage 0:11:58.902 --> 0:12:00.782 it looked like it was going to be James, and 0:12:00.822 --> 0:12:04.062 then there was the phone hacking scandal in the UK 0:12:04.542 --> 0:12:06.542 and James had to take the fall on behalf of 0:12:06.582 --> 0:12:09.902 the company and on behalf of Rupert some say, and 0:12:09.942 --> 0:12:12.182 so he then had to essentially leave the company. He 0:12:12.222 --> 0:12:14.862 was demoted, and then pretty soon after Lachlan came back 0:12:15.422 --> 0:12:17.902 and it became clear to him that he was being 0:12:17.902 --> 0:12:20.622 pushed aside and Lachlan had pretty much been chosen. So 0:12:20.702 --> 0:12:23.382 he's been estranged from the company and actually speaking out 0:12:23.422 --> 0:12:26.502 against the company. For example in twenty twenty when they 0:12:26.542 --> 0:12:30.862 were the Bushfires in Australia and Rupert's outlets were sort 0:12:30.902 --> 0:12:33.182 of saying it we had nothing to do with climate change. 0:12:33.462 --> 0:12:36.302 James Murdock came out with his wife, the well known 0:12:36.382 --> 0:12:39.782 philanthropists and climate activists and spoke out against News Limited. 0:12:39.982 --> 0:12:41.942 He then had to stand down from the board. 0:12:42.062 --> 0:12:45.102 So he's become more and more estranged, and at various 0:12:45.102 --> 0:12:47.582 times he's also been astranged from his siblings. But it's 0:12:47.742 --> 0:12:50.222 very much a couple of years ago, Rupert pretty much 0:12:50.222 --> 0:12:53.542 confirmed Lachlan is the heir apparent. He's now in charge, 0:12:53.582 --> 0:12:55.702 and the reason that this has all come out is 0:12:55.702 --> 0:12:59.022 that because the all four of them have equal voting rights. 0:12:59.062 --> 0:13:02.462 After Rupert dies, there was some talk that maybe the 0:13:02.462 --> 0:13:05.222 other three would have a coup and kick out Lachlan 0:13:05.422 --> 0:13:08.222 and turn the company instead of it being so conservative 0:13:08.262 --> 0:13:10.662 think of Fox News, move it. 0:13:10.622 --> 0:13:13.381 Further to the left. And Rupert, who's very conservative and 0:13:13.662 --> 0:13:16.502 Lachlan shares those views, thought that was a very bad idea. 0:13:16.582 --> 0:13:20.222 So he tried to basically rip up the trust and 0:13:20.262 --> 0:13:24.502 say to the other children, no, Lachlan is the only 0:13:24.582 --> 0:13:25.782 one I'm crossing you out. 0:13:25.902 --> 0:13:31.662 Oh so he underlined recently underlined or crossed out shit, 0:13:32.182 --> 0:13:34.022 and they of course took him to court and they won. 0:13:34.182 --> 0:13:36.702 The Murdocks, as I've always said, are just like us. 0:13:37.222 --> 0:13:39.902 We have so much in common with this Australian dynasty 0:13:40.502 --> 0:13:43.622 because one in twenty five Australians are affected by family estrangement, 0:13:44.062 --> 0:13:47.022 just like James, and up to thirty percent of people 0:13:47.342 --> 0:13:51.381 experience ongoing conflict with a sibling. So the reasons for this, 0:13:51.462 --> 0:13:54.062 according to Kayla Steel from the Black Dog Institute, are 0:13:54.102 --> 0:13:59.982 things like parental favoritism, conflicting values and lifestyle choices, and 0:14:00.342 --> 0:14:04.662 disruptive family events that can expose unresolved conflicts, think something 0:14:04.742 --> 0:14:08.942 like a parent's death or divorce. And last year saw 0:14:08.982 --> 0:14:11.862 a rise in sibling therapy, which we'll get to because 0:14:11.862 --> 0:14:14.062 there's an example of that in the Murdocks. But one 0:14:14.102 --> 0:14:17.982 realization a lot of siblings have is that for each child, 0:14:18.062 --> 0:14:21.222 they grew up with a different parent. Amelia, do you 0:14:21.302 --> 0:14:25.742 think there is something especially complicated about our relationship with siblings? 0:14:26.142 --> 0:14:28.982 I do, And this came up for me just last week. 0:14:29.022 --> 0:14:31.662 I had dinner with a friend. She and her sister 0:14:31.702 --> 0:14:33.862 are twenty two months apart, and I bring that up 0:14:33.902 --> 0:14:36.822 because Lachlan and James are only fifteen months apart. So 0:14:37.022 --> 0:14:40.462 I'm talking specifically about siblings with not a lot of 0:14:40.502 --> 0:14:42.942 time between them, I imagine the twin experience is a 0:14:42.982 --> 0:14:46.742 different thing again. And she said that they had this 0:14:46.862 --> 0:14:50.742 really emotional conversation recently. They both ended up in tears, 0:14:50.902 --> 0:14:55.582 and her older sister's going through some things, and she said, basically, 0:14:55.702 --> 0:14:58.342 I wish that you hadn't been born, because while I 0:14:58.422 --> 0:15:01.422 love you and I'm so proud of you, you've made 0:15:01.422 --> 0:15:04.422 my life more difficult by being here because people have 0:15:04.542 --> 0:15:07.782 constantly compared them to each other. She's felt like that 0:15:07.982 --> 0:15:11.422 fundamental breach with her parents was when the younger sibling 0:15:11.502 --> 0:15:14.982 came along and diverted the attention away, and to hit 0:15:15.062 --> 0:15:17.262 that kind of primal point with each other well into 0:15:17.302 --> 0:15:20.742 their forties, I thought, just shows how difficult and how 0:15:20.902 --> 0:15:23.702 our sibling relationships are evolving all through our lives. 0:15:24.022 --> 0:15:28.022 Because therapy has historically focused so much on the parent dynamic. 0:15:28.302 --> 0:15:30.622 Right, But yeah, people think of therapy as being for 0:15:30.702 --> 0:15:34.782 romantic relationships or for self discovery and self help. 0:15:34.942 --> 0:15:37.742 Yes, but the thing about siblings is that that's where 0:15:37.782 --> 0:15:38.902 you learn conflict. 0:15:39.102 --> 0:15:40.422 Yeah, family dynamics. 0:15:40.662 --> 0:15:43.862 I think that's a much more exciting and emerging area 0:15:43.982 --> 0:15:48.102 in in clinical psychology at the moment. A therapist told 0:15:48.102 --> 0:15:51.782 me once that families often delegate the emotional processing within 0:15:51.822 --> 0:15:55.062 the family to one member of the family, which really 0:15:55.102 --> 0:15:58.342 resonated with me because I think that's usually the daughter 0:15:58.502 --> 0:16:00.862 in my family, but you're the eldest daughter, there's me 0:16:00.982 --> 0:16:03.942 and my brother. But in the Murdoch family, I think 0:16:03.982 --> 0:16:07.102 it's James. He's the feeling one, the one who emotes 0:16:07.182 --> 0:16:11.622 and processes in public, and clearly his father really resents 0:16:11.702 --> 0:16:12.302 him for that. 0:16:12.502 --> 0:16:13.862 Because the funny thing. 0:16:13.702 --> 0:16:17.822 About that delegation of emotional responsibility is that it doesn't 0:16:17.822 --> 0:16:19.622 mean that people are grateful to you for being the 0:16:19.662 --> 0:16:22.142 one who processes the emotions for the family. It can 0:16:22.182 --> 0:16:25.382 often invoke really complicated feelings for everyone else, and I 0:16:25.382 --> 0:16:27.582 think that's sort of what James is going through. He's 0:16:27.622 --> 0:16:29.822 the one who's been processing in public and he's been 0:16:29.862 --> 0:16:30.542 punished for it. 0:16:30.662 --> 0:16:32.222 I also think that interesting. 0:16:32.302 --> 0:16:38.022 There's something about sibling relationships that feels like incredibly stifling, 0:16:38.182 --> 0:16:41.662 that you can't evolve within them, that you are always 0:16:42.182 --> 0:16:44.702 pigeonholed as a particular type of person that you were 0:16:44.702 --> 0:16:48.342 when you were five, and life is about changing and 0:16:48.782 --> 0:16:51.102 feeling as though in different contexts you're a different type 0:16:51.102 --> 0:16:53.542 of person, and I, at two and a half was 0:16:53.702 --> 0:16:55.782 identified as the bossy one. I was the bossy one, 0:16:56.062 --> 0:16:59.462 and outside my family, I'm not the bossy one. And 0:16:59.502 --> 0:17:03.742 it's so annoying that when I get back into that dynamic, 0:17:03.782 --> 0:17:05.542 not only am I seen as that, but I become that, 0:17:06.101 --> 0:17:10.061 and it can feel like incredibly confronting and li and 0:17:10.061 --> 0:17:11.502 then you look around and you go none of you 0:17:11.542 --> 0:17:14.661 even know me, which I can feel within all the 0:17:14.742 --> 0:17:15.902 dynamics of siblings. 0:17:15.901 --> 0:17:19.262 Well, that's exactly what happened with the Murdocks, because so James, 0:17:19.302 --> 0:17:22.302 according to the Atlantic article, was pigeonholeders the rebel. 0:17:22.341 --> 0:17:23.821 Early on he died his hair. 0:17:24.462 --> 0:17:27.502 He was clearly very brilliant, but sort of enjoyed doing 0:17:27.502 --> 0:17:30.581 things like drawing cartoons instead of studying hard at university. 0:17:30.982 --> 0:17:32.422 Lochlin was much more the. 0:17:32.381 --> 0:17:35.141 Apple of his father's eye, the one who fell in 0:17:35.182 --> 0:17:38.061 line with his father's expectations, most. 0:17:38.022 --> 0:17:41.061 Like him, the most likely values point of view. From 0:17:41.502 --> 0:17:43.661 a lot of yeah, he modeled himself on his father 0:17:43.742 --> 0:17:45.661 a lot more than any of his other siblings. 0:17:45.742 --> 0:17:49.542 But then when Lochlin escaped the Murdoch Empire to come 0:17:49.581 --> 0:17:51.661 back to Australia, when he and his father had a 0:17:51.661 --> 0:17:54.821 big breach in the early two thousands. James tried to 0:17:54.901 --> 0:17:57.821 inhabit the role of father's apple of his eye and 0:17:57.901 --> 0:18:00.621 tried to dress like his father and act like his father, 0:18:01.141 --> 0:18:04.422 and his father hated that because the family dynamic depends 0:18:04.422 --> 0:18:07.261 on people continuing to play that role even as they 0:18:07.302 --> 0:18:09.421 as individuals change and rebel against it. 0:18:09.782 --> 0:18:13.822 Yeah, that's so so interesting. I also had a therapist 0:18:13.901 --> 0:18:17.581 once tell me that a lot of people go to 0:18:17.702 --> 0:18:21.302 therapy and their siblings come up in therapy, and a 0:18:21.341 --> 0:18:25.141 lot of people feel very guilty and conflicted about the 0:18:25.141 --> 0:18:27.782 fact that they don't have close relationships with their siblings 0:18:27.782 --> 0:18:30.462 as adults. Might have actually been Esther Perell who talked 0:18:30.462 --> 0:18:33.061 about this, not my therapist. I'm getting them confused. But 0:18:33.222 --> 0:18:36.782 then she said, it's actually really uncommon to have a 0:18:36.821 --> 0:18:39.662 close relationship with a sibling when you're an. 0:18:39.542 --> 0:18:42.621 Adult, probably precisely because of this. Yeah, exactly. 0:18:42.661 --> 0:18:44.901 And it's almost like Jesse when you were saying about 0:18:44.901 --> 0:18:47.782 how you got frozen. You know how people say celebrities 0:18:47.821 --> 0:18:50.341 get frozen at the age they became famous. There's something 0:18:50.341 --> 0:18:54.701 about having siblings. A dynamic gets frozen in your childhood. 0:18:54.702 --> 0:18:57.581 I don't know, necessarily in what part of your childhood 0:18:57.821 --> 0:19:01.182 because those dynamics can change, I guess, but that dynamic 0:19:01.341 --> 0:19:04.542 you don't get the opportunity to grow out of them exactly. 0:19:04.661 --> 0:19:07.261 I've heard it referred to as a shadow relationship. So 0:19:07.742 --> 0:19:13.022 you have this defining relationship with certain dynamics that include 0:19:13.022 --> 0:19:16.222 behavior that probably wouldn't be legitimate anywhere else in your life. 0:19:16.262 --> 0:19:18.982 The way that siblings fight, the names they call each 0:19:18.982 --> 0:19:23.101 other would not be appropriate often between a partner or 0:19:23.141 --> 0:19:26.142 a friend or a boss, but siblings kind of get 0:19:26.141 --> 0:19:29.302 away with it. But the shadow is that you then 0:19:29.462 --> 0:19:32.542 bring I was reading this therapist say, you bring that 0:19:32.621 --> 0:19:35.742 to every relationship you enter. So whether it's a type 0:19:35.742 --> 0:19:39.181 of attachment where you felt like you were parenting the 0:19:39.222 --> 0:19:43.181 other one, or you felt constantly in conflict or competition, 0:19:43.901 --> 0:19:47.142