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Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. So I'm editing a

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Speaker 2: video about Labia and you guys are all saying it,

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Speaker 2: and then I've got my phone and all of a

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Speaker 2: sudden it goes silent, and I'm like, why isn't volume working?

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Speaker 2: So I turn the volume up the loudest and I'm

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Speaker 2: just like, why isn't it And I hear Maya's voice

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Speaker 2: yelling LaBier from my car on the street.

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Speaker 3: Hello, and welcome to MoMA.

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Speaker 2: Me are out loud and to our Friday show, where it.

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Speaker 3: Is a news free zone.

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Speaker 2: Today is Friday, the twenty first of February, and I

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Speaker 2: am Jesse Stephens.

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Speaker 1: I'm mea Friedman, and I'm Amelia Lister.

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Speaker 2: And on the show today the sibling feud that sent

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Speaker 2: me out down a week long rabbit hole and left

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Speaker 2: us asking is sibling therapy a thing?

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Speaker 3: Should it be?

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Speaker 2: Plus recommendation, something a bit sexy, something a bit controversial?

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Speaker 2: And the book Amelia can't stop talking about and our

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Speaker 2: best and worst of the week. From an embarrassing moment,

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Speaker 2: one of us thinks she's beautiful. That's not me and

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Speaker 2: the genes that transformed or wardrobe, but first meya.

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Speaker 1: In case you missed it, languishing is back.

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Speaker 4: You might be triggered by that word because it was

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Speaker 4: a mid and immediately post pandemic term for that feeling

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Speaker 4: that everything is just a bit well. You'll be surprised

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Speaker 4: to know, or maybe you won't. It's officially a thing again.

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Speaker 4: Australians are doing it very very well. We are champion

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Speaker 4: languishers at the top of the leaderboard. A study of

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Speaker 4: sixteen thousand people following their well being over a five

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Speaker 4: year period found that one in five were languishing. So

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Speaker 4: things like you might be struggling with your relationships, you

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Speaker 4: might not be experiencing as much joy as you used to,

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Speaker 4: You're not really setting the same amount of goals, You're

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Speaker 4: missing that forward energy, and you feel a bit stuck

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Speaker 4: and stagnant.

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Speaker 1: Jesse, isn't this just called February?

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Speaker 2: I think that might be part of it, but I

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Speaker 2: also think there's something else going on. I was reading

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Speaker 2: an article by Adam Grant that he wrote during COVID

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Speaker 2: about this languishing phenomenon, and he said that it is

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Speaker 2: the emotion that sits between depression and flourishing, and that

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Speaker 2: a lot of people who.

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Speaker 1: What's a pretty broad spectrum though.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but he was saying that one of the biggest

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Speaker 2: predictors for depression or anxiety in the future is that

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Speaker 2: you're languishing in this moment. You don't feel like you're flourishing.

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Speaker 2: And I was thinking about it in the work context,

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Speaker 2: and how when you have a job that is very pecy,

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Speaker 2: say it's very You're constantly distracted and pulled in different directions.

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Speaker 2: It's really hard to get into a state of flow.

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Speaker 2: And he says that flow is the antidote, like finding

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Speaker 2: yourself able to immerse, even if it's in your personal life,

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Speaker 2: if it's reading or gardening or whatever it is. Flow

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Speaker 2: is the opposite to languishing. And I thought, I can

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Speaker 2: see how we kind of we struggle with goal setting

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Speaker 2: or feeling a sense of achievement or joy in the workplace.

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Speaker 2: We're constantly going from one task to another.

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Speaker 4: But Amreilya, isn't there a case to be made for

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Speaker 4: languishing being just a symptom of we need to just

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Speaker 4: stop and catch our breath for a second.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I've heard a lot about languishing lately like you have.

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Speaker 5: Sometimes I hear gen Z refer to it as bed rot.

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Speaker 5: I think that's part of the same phenomenon. I just

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Speaker 5: sounded really old. And I also recall Megan Markle when

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Speaker 5: she was interviewed on her Chua to Africa in twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 5: and she distinguished between surviving and thriving. And really that's

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Speaker 5: what we're talking about here, the difference between surviving and thriving.

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Speaker 1: But we can't be flourishing and thriving and kicking goals

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Speaker 1: and inflow all the time. Have we just become completely

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Speaker 1: unable to accept any form of stacey No, no, no.

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Speaker 2: But languishing is about numbness. It's about not actually feeling anything.

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Speaker 5: I think this is all a little bit overrated. I

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Speaker 5: think a lot of these trend stories, Oh we're all

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Speaker 5: feeling one way.

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Speaker 1: It means that the.

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Speaker 5: Writer is in a certain life state and they feel

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Speaker 5: that way.

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Speaker 1: I have to be.

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Speaker 5: The annoying one here and say I'm not currently languishing.

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Speaker 5: And that's because, as of a couple of weeks ago,

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Speaker 5: I have both children in primary school. Both of my

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Speaker 5: children and I talk to women about this. In the

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Speaker 5: lead up to this event, and they got this far

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Speaker 5: off look in their eyes, and they would say, everything's

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Speaker 5: about to change. You're about to discover your life again.

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Speaker 5: You're about to feel in control again. And it didn't

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Speaker 5: fully make sense to me because school still ends at

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Speaker 5: three o'clock. It's not like I have this entire day

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Speaker 5: to play with. But it's true. There's something about moving

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Speaker 5: into that life stage where it's more predictable, it's less expensive,

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Speaker 5: you know where your day's going to go in the

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Speaker 5: shape of it for the most part, and I feel

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Speaker 5: like I'm not languishing anymore. I think there's something to

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Speaker 5: having small children, which is maybe endemic to languishing.

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Speaker 2: I wonder if, and it's interesting because it's languishing in

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Speaker 2: your professional life. I wonder if this is what I

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Speaker 2: was referring to a few weeks ago when I talked

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Speaker 2: about not wanting anything. I was really I was at

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Speaker 2: work and going, I'm really it's not like I'm not

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Speaker 2: enjoying it when I'm here, but I don't have any

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Speaker 2: clear goals. You're living two distinct lives. You don't feel

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Speaker 2: fully in it.

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Speaker 4: I think languishing is maybe I heard Glennon Doyle describe

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Speaker 4: it once when she was talking about in a slightly

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Speaker 4: different context, being on the landing where she'd actually had

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Speaker 4: a relapse in her eating disorder, and she said, I

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Speaker 4: was sort of you know, if you look at that,

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Speaker 4: or sort of falling down or going down the stairs,

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Speaker 4: and then I'm at the landing where I'm not falling anymore,

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Speaker 4: but I haven't started going up yet and recovering, and

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Speaker 4: I like that idea of a landing. Languishing is almost

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Speaker 4: you know, used to say, oh I'm languishing. That used

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Speaker 4: to be something that was very indulgent, like I'm languishing

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Speaker 4: in bed, like, oh, it's so delicious. Now it feels

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Speaker 4: really negative, like bedrot and oh no, I'm languishing. And

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Speaker 4: of course anything connected to the pandemic is languishing. But

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Speaker 4: I think there's a lot to be said and we

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Speaker 4: shouldn't demonize just not being productive or maybe that phase

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Speaker 4: while you're going through a change.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I reckon, it's about how long you in it.

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Speaker 2: I think that if you feel like you've been languishing

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Speaker 2: for four years, you feel like your life isn't going

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Speaker 2: anywhere and you have no control over what's happening, then

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Speaker 2: that's probably a sign there's something wrong, whereas languishing, I've

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Speaker 2: had it described to me as ebb and flow, like

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Speaker 2: sometimes you're in flow and sometimes life ebbs. That's okay

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Speaker 2: to sit in that too.

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Speaker 1: When have I every time? I always say how great

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Speaker 1: your house looks? Say look at all your new ship.

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Speaker 1: You show you a meeting. This isn't here to sit

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Speaker 1: and talk about this? What is that your.

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Speaker 6: Seriously?

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Speaker 1: What is wrong with you?

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Speaker 6: You know what?

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Speaker 3: David, you get murdered first for when it's no, you

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Speaker 3: get murdered.

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Speaker 6: David, you get murdered first.

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Speaker 5: No you vote for me?

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Speaker 4: No? Why? No?

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Speaker 5: Why?

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Speaker 4: What?

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Speaker 5: Just?

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Speaker 1: I love you? I really I love you, but I

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Speaker 1: cannot stomach you.

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Speaker 4: I'm the other spot.

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Speaker 2: Sibling relationships, one of the most significant attachments of our

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Speaker 2: lives and also one of our biggest blind spots, are

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Speaker 2: having a moment. Liam and Noel Gallagher of Oasis fame,

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Speaker 2: who had a fight fifteen years ago and then publicly

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Speaker 2: feuded for more than a decade, have recently reconciled with

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Speaker 2: their tour coming later this year. But the story that

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Speaker 2: got us thinking about the complexity of sibling relationships this week,

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Speaker 2: with the explosive accounts being shared by the Murdocks who

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Speaker 2: managed to make succession look like play school. Maya, you

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Speaker 2: have fallen into this rabbit hole, very very deep. We've

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Speaker 2: been trying to get you out. Can you briefly explain

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Speaker 2: to us what has happened with the Murdock siblings and

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Speaker 2: why their names are suddenly everywhere? Because wasn't it It was

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Speaker 2: New York Times, it was The Atlantic. I was seeing

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Speaker 2: it all over the Sydney Morning Herald and the age

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Speaker 2: over the weekend.

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Speaker 4: The weekend was like my super Bowl because twenty eight

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Speaker 4: thousand words of Murdock gossip or succession really gossip, dropped

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Speaker 4: over the weekend. As you said, there were these two

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Speaker 4: very big stories based on all the transcripts that have

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Speaker 4: come out of a big court case between different members

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Speaker 4: of the murder family against each other, and also an

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Speaker 4: interview that James Murdock, who is the youngest of Rupert

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Speaker 4: Murdock's sons, he gave to The Atlantic and he's been talking,

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Speaker 4: He and his wife have been talking to his journalists

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Speaker 4: for a year about all of this stuff, about his

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Speaker 4: estrangement and about the estrangement from not just his father

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Speaker 4: but also his brother, and the various estrangements between all

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Speaker 4: the different siblings at different times.

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Speaker 5: Miya, can I just interrupt and say, it's so interesting

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Speaker 5: he chose to talk to that particular writer, Mackay Coppins

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Speaker 5: at The Atlantic, because that writer is most well known

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Speaker 5: for writing very sympathetically and very fairly about the Republican

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Speaker 5: right in the US, and specifically about the influence of

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Speaker 5: Evangelical Christianity on the Republican right in the US. And

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Speaker 5: I find it fascinating that he chose someone who he

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Speaker 5: must know his dad's probably quite sympathetic with a lot

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Speaker 5: of these causes that this reporter writes about.

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Speaker 1: Right, So he didn't choose a well known liberal commentation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 4: The whole thing was just extraordinary because, you know, in

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Speaker 4: succession was huge, as it has been for the last

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Speaker 4: few years, there've been a lot of speculation that it

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Speaker 4: was based on the Murdocks and that people within the

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Speaker 4: Murdoch family suspected of each other of leaking to the writers.

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Speaker 4: It's now alleged in this one of these articles that

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Speaker 4: perhaps it was one of Liz Murdocks, one of the

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Speaker 4: daughters her ex husband, who was leaking. But what was

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Speaker 4: so interesting about this and what sort of was at

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Speaker 4: the heart of it is that you know, in the

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Speaker 4: last season of Succession Logan, the patriarch dies and all

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Speaker 4: of his children aren't ready for what to do, and

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Speaker 4: it's a bit of a shit show. So apparently the

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Speaker 4: Murdocks when they watched it, some of the Murdock siblings

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Speaker 4: watched it and went, oh shit, what are we going

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Speaker 4: to do when dad dies? So it's a case of

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Speaker 4: art imitating life that then imitates art because they then

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Speaker 4: tried to draw up planned so that they wouldn't end

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Speaker 4: up like what was depicted on.

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Speaker 2: This Cree show, as it stands, right, So they didn't

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Speaker 2: tell Ruper. I read some of this over the weekend.

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Speaker 2: So as it stands, there are I think six siblings,

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Speaker 2: but the four so you've got Prue, You've got Liz, James,

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Speaker 2: and Lachlan, who all have the same those three have

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Speaker 2: the same mother.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, those four eldest children.

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Speaker 4: Prue his first marriage, and then Liz, Lachlan and James

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Speaker 4: are from his second marriage to Anna Murdoch.

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Speaker 2: So those four are part of a trust and they

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Speaker 2: get sort of a vote in what happens to the Murdoch.

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Speaker 4: Correct, So all six of his children, this trust was

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Speaker 4: written before his youngest two children with Wendy Dang, Grace

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Speaker 4: and Chloe, were born. They're now in their early twenties.

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Speaker 4: But it was the way for Anna Murdoch when she

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Speaker 4: divorced Rupert. Wasn't her decision to divorce. She wanted to

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Speaker 4: secure the future of her three children and stepdaughter pru

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Speaker 4: who she'd raised as being the equal beneficiaries of Rupert's

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Speaker 4: share after he dies. So what happens is that even

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Speaker 4: though all six of his children have equal financial share,

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Speaker 4: only those four have voting rights.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so it comes down to voting rights, and the

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Speaker 2: big fallout, as far as I could see, is between

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Speaker 2: Lachlan and James.

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Speaker 5: Yes.

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Speaker 2: And what was really revealing and James and father, Yes,

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Speaker 2: was James saying the falling out with Lachlan wasn't an accident.

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Speaker 2: My father kind of wanted this. He brought us up

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Speaker 2: to be at each other's throat exactly.

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Speaker 4: So Rupert, who inherited his company from his father and

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Speaker 4: grew it enormously, has always played particularly his three middle children, Liz,

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Speaker 4: James and Lachland. James and Lochlan are only fifteen months apart.

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Speaker 4: They're both in their early fifties. Now, but since they

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Speaker 4: were in their sort of teens or early twenties, he's

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Speaker 4: always played them or the three of them off against

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Speaker 4: each other as to who would be the heir apparent,

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Speaker 4: exactly how it goes in succession. It's interesting it never

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Speaker 4: occurred to him that it would be Liz. James says

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Speaker 4: his father's a misogynist and doesn't believe that his daughters,

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Speaker 4: his adult daughters, are even capable of making decisions about

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Speaker 4: their own lives, lit alone running a company. So it

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Speaker 4: was always between James and Lachlan, and at one stage

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Speaker 4: it looked like it was going to be James, and

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Speaker 4: then there was the phone hacking scandal in the UK

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Speaker 4: and James had to take the fall on behalf of

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Speaker 4: the company and on behalf of Rupert some say, and

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Speaker 4: so he then had to essentially leave the company. He

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Speaker 4: was demoted, and then pretty soon after Lachlan came back

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Speaker 4: and it became clear to him that he was being

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Speaker 4: pushed aside and Lachlan had pretty much been chosen. So

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Speaker 4: he's been estranged from the company and actually speaking out

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Speaker 4: against the company. For example in twenty twenty when they

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Speaker 4: were the Bushfires in Australia and Rupert's outlets were sort

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Speaker 4: of saying it we had nothing to do with climate change.

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Speaker 4: James Murdock came out with his wife, the well known

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Speaker 4: philanthropists and climate activists and spoke out against News Limited.

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Speaker 1: He then had to stand down from the board.

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Speaker 4: So he's become more and more estranged, and at various

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Speaker 4: times he's also been astranged from his siblings. But it's

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Speaker 4: very much a couple of years ago, Rupert pretty much

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Speaker 4: confirmed Lachlan is the heir apparent. He's now in charge,

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Speaker 4: and the reason that this has all come out is

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Speaker 4: that because the all four of them have equal voting rights.

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Speaker 4: After Rupert dies, there was some talk that maybe the

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Speaker 4: other three would have a coup and kick out Lachlan

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Speaker 4: and turn the company instead of it being so conservative

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Speaker 4: think of Fox News, move it.

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Speaker 1: Further to the left. And Rupert, who's very conservative and

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Speaker 1: Lachlan shares those views, thought that was a very bad idea.

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Speaker 4: So he tried to basically rip up the trust and

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Speaker 4: say to the other children, no, Lachlan is the only

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Speaker 4: one I'm crossing you out.

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Speaker 1: Oh so he underlined recently underlined or crossed out shit,

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Speaker 1: and they of course took him to court and they won.

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Speaker 2: The Murdocks, as I've always said, are just like us.

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Speaker 2: We have so much in common with this Australian dynasty

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Speaker 2: because one in twenty five Australians are affected by family estrangement,

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Speaker 2: just like James, and up to thirty percent of people

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Speaker 2: experience ongoing conflict with a sibling. So the reasons for this,

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Speaker 2: according to Kayla Steel from the Black Dog Institute, are

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Speaker 2: things like parental favoritism, conflicting values and lifestyle choices, and

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Speaker 2: disruptive family events that can expose unresolved conflicts, think something

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Speaker 2: like a parent's death or divorce. And last year saw

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Speaker 2: a rise in sibling therapy, which we'll get to because

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Speaker 2: there's an example of that in the Murdocks. But one

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Speaker 2: realization a lot of siblings have is that for each child,

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Speaker 2: they grew up with a different parent. Amelia, do you

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Speaker 2: think there is something especially complicated about our relationship with siblings?

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Speaker 5: I do, And this came up for me just last week.

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Speaker 5: I had dinner with a friend. She and her sister

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Speaker 5: are twenty two months apart, and I bring that up

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Speaker 5: because Lachlan and James are only fifteen months apart. So

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Speaker 5: I'm talking specifically about siblings with not a lot of

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Speaker 5: time between them, I imagine the twin experience is a

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Speaker 5: different thing again. And she said that they had this

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Speaker 5: really emotional conversation recently. They both ended up in tears,

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Speaker 5: and her older sister's going through some things, and she said, basically,

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Speaker 5: I wish that you hadn't been born, because while I

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Speaker 5: love you and I'm so proud of you, you've made

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Speaker 5: my life more difficult by being here because people have

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Speaker 5: constantly compared them to each other. She's felt like that

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Speaker 5: fundamental breach with her parents was when the younger sibling

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Speaker 5: came along and diverted the attention away, and to hit

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Speaker 5: that kind of primal point with each other well into

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Speaker 5: their forties, I thought, just shows how difficult and how

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Speaker 5: our sibling relationships are evolving all through our lives.

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Speaker 2: Because therapy has historically focused so much on the parent dynamic.

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Speaker 4: Right, But yeah, people think of therapy as being for

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Speaker 4: romantic relationships or for self discovery and self help.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but the thing about siblings is that that's where

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Speaker 2: you learn conflict.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, family dynamics.

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Speaker 5: I think that's a much more exciting and emerging area

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Speaker 5: in in clinical psychology at the moment. A therapist told

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Speaker 5: me once that families often delegate the emotional processing within

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Speaker 5: the family to one member of the family, which really

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Speaker 5: resonated with me because I think that's usually the daughter

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Speaker 5: in my family, but you're the eldest daughter, there's me

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Speaker 5: and my brother. But in the Murdoch family, I think

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Speaker 5: it's James. He's the feeling one, the one who emotes

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Speaker 5: and processes in public, and clearly his father really resents

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Speaker 5: him for that.

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Speaker 1: Because the funny thing.

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Speaker 5: About that delegation of emotional responsibility is that it doesn't

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Speaker 5: mean that people are grateful to you for being the

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Speaker 5: one who processes the emotions for the family. It can

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Speaker 5: often invoke really complicated feelings for everyone else, and I

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Speaker 5: think that's sort of what James is going through. He's

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Speaker 5: the one who's been processing in public and he's been

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Speaker 5: punished for it.

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Speaker 3: I also think that interesting.

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Speaker 2: There's something about sibling relationships that feels like incredibly stifling,

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Speaker 2: that you can't evolve within them, that you are always

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Speaker 2: pigeonholed as a particular type of person that you were

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Speaker 2: when you were five, and life is about changing and

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Speaker 2: feeling as though in different contexts you're a different type

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Speaker 2: of person, and I, at two and a half was

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Speaker 2: identified as the bossy one. I was the bossy one,

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Speaker 2: and outside my family, I'm not the bossy one. And

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Speaker 2: it's so annoying that when I get back into that dynamic,

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Speaker 2: not only am I seen as that, but I become that,

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Speaker 2: and it can feel like incredibly confronting and li and

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Speaker 2: then you look around and you go none of you

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Speaker 2: even know me, which I can feel within all the

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Speaker 2: dynamics of siblings.

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Speaker 5: Well, that's exactly what happened with the Murdocks, because so James,

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Speaker 5: according to the Atlantic article, was pigeonholeders the rebel.

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Speaker 1: Early on he died his hair.

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Speaker 5: He was clearly very brilliant, but sort of enjoyed doing

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Speaker 5: things like drawing cartoons instead of studying hard at university.

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Speaker 1: Lochlin was much more the.

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Speaker 5: Apple of his father's eye, the one who fell in

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Speaker 5: line with his father's expectations, most.

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Speaker 4: Like him, the most likely values point of view. From

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Speaker 4: a lot of yeah, he modeled himself on his father

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Speaker 4: a lot more than any of his other siblings.

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Speaker 5: But then when Lochlin escaped the Murdoch Empire to come

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Speaker 5: back to Australia, when he and his father had a

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Speaker 5: big breach in the early two thousands. James tried to

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Speaker 5: inhabit the role of father's apple of his eye and

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Speaker 5: tried to dress like his father and act like his father,

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Speaker 5: and his father hated that because the family dynamic depends

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Speaker 5: on people continuing to play that role even as they

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Speaker 5: as individuals change and rebel against it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's so so interesting. I also had a therapist

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Speaker 4: once tell me that a lot of people go to

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Speaker 4: therapy and their siblings come up in therapy, and a

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Speaker 4: lot of people feel very guilty and conflicted about the

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Speaker 4: fact that they don't have close relationships with their siblings

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Speaker 4: as adults. Might have actually been Esther Perell who talked

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Speaker 4: about this, not my therapist. I'm getting them confused. But

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Speaker 4: then she said, it's actually really uncommon to have a

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Speaker 4: close relationship with a sibling when you're an.

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Speaker 1: Adult, probably precisely because of this. Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 4: And it's almost like Jesse when you were saying about

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Speaker 4: how you got frozen. You know how people say celebrities

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Speaker 4: get frozen at the age they became famous. There's something

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Speaker 4: about having siblings. A dynamic gets frozen in your childhood.

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Speaker 4: I don't know, necessarily in what part of your childhood

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Speaker 4: because those dynamics can change, I guess, but that dynamic

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Speaker 4: you don't get the opportunity to grow out of them exactly.

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Speaker 2: I've heard it referred to as a shadow relationship. So

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Speaker 2: you have this defining relationship with certain dynamics that include

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Speaker 2: behavior that probably wouldn't be legitimate anywhere else in your life.

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Speaker 2: The way that siblings fight, the names they call each

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Speaker 2: other would not be appropriate often between a partner or

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Speaker 2: a friend or a boss, but siblings kind of get

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Speaker 2: away with it. But the shadow is that you then

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Speaker 2: bring I was reading this therapist say, you bring that

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Speaker 2: to every relationship you enter. So whether it's a type

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Speaker 2: of attachment where you felt like you were parenting the

400
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Speaker 2: other one, or you felt constantly in conflict or competition,

401
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Speaker 2: it defines. The therapist was saying, you see people get

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Speaker 2: locked into sort of a spouse relationship, and when they

403
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Speaker 2: turned to the sibling relationship, they went, that's actually what's

404
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Speaker 2: informed it.

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Speaker 1: That's fascinating.

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Speaker 4: One of the things I always ask people with multiple

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Speaker 4: children of any age really is what's the dynamic like

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Speaker 4: between the children, because I always find that fascinating and

409
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Speaker 4: it can be so different why do you think it

410
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Speaker 4: is that so many siblings when they fall out, they

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Speaker 4: fall out in ways that are kind of can be catastrophic.

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Speaker 5: It's because it's so deeply painful. And I speak from experience,

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Speaker 5: because my brother and I went through a period of

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Speaker 5: estrangement earlier in my life. We probably only didn't speak

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Speaker 5: for about six months, but I think it might have

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Speaker 5: been the most difficult six months of my life.

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Speaker 1: And why do you think that?

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Speaker 5: Because it's such a primal relationship. You assume that, like

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Speaker 5: your parents, your sibling is always going to be there

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Speaker 5: and you're going to get that unconditional love, and I

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Speaker 5: suppose you do in a certain way, but it's also

422
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Speaker 5: more volatile.

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Speaker 4: Always a relationship based on competition, competition for your parents' affection,

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Speaker 4: time love.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if it's necessarily that, or if it's

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Speaker 2: just so complicated because so much is unsaid, like there

427
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Speaker 2: are so many entrenched dynamics. I think there's also an

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Speaker 2: element of My mum has lost two siblings recently, and

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Speaker 2: we were talking about how it feels like the death

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Speaker 2: of childhood, and I think that estrangement does that too.

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Speaker 2: There's such an innocence often to your early years in

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Speaker 2: a nostalgia if you had a pleasant upbringing where it

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Speaker 2: felt simple that then you get into adulthood and all these,

434
00:21:21,901 --> 00:21:24,701
Speaker 2: as they say, almost triggers. Whether it's things going on

435
00:21:24,742 --> 00:21:27,702
Speaker 2: with your parents or your own families, it comes up

436
00:21:27,782 --> 00:21:30,101
Speaker 2: and it just makes a mess of it. And I

437
00:21:30,141 --> 00:21:35,061
Speaker 2: heard this hourglass theory of sibling relationships, which is a

438
00:21:35,141 --> 00:21:40,262
Speaker 2: real closeness. When your kids midlife, you tend to separate.

439
00:21:40,782 --> 00:21:44,101
Speaker 2: And then this therapist was saying that towards old age,

440
00:21:44,141 --> 00:21:47,701
Speaker 2: when people look towards end of life or going I

441
00:21:47,702 --> 00:21:49,142
Speaker 2: don't know how much long I'm going to be here,

442
00:21:49,182 --> 00:21:51,341
Speaker 2: there is this real desire that kicks in to get

443
00:21:51,381 --> 00:21:52,422
Speaker 2: close to your siblings again.

444
00:21:52,661 --> 00:21:56,542
Speaker 4: It can also cascade down when your siblings have children

445
00:21:57,302 --> 00:22:01,902
Speaker 4: and you see how your parents are with your children

446
00:22:02,022 --> 00:22:06,262
Speaker 4: versus your siblings' children, and you can see sometimes that

447
00:22:06,262 --> 00:22:10,061
Speaker 4: that can cause like that jealousy and that rival, which

448
00:22:10,101 --> 00:22:13,182
Speaker 4: is feels silly to another adult. I've seen it play

449
00:22:13,182 --> 00:22:16,662
Speaker 4: out in families where they get jealous of the grandparents'

450
00:22:16,702 --> 00:22:19,182
Speaker 4: relationship with certain grandchildren. I was talking to one woman

451
00:22:19,222 --> 00:22:21,782
Speaker 4: once since she's like was talking about her favorite grandchild.

452
00:22:22,302 --> 00:22:24,701
Speaker 4: Her three daughters were like laughing because they just know

453
00:22:24,821 --> 00:22:27,142
Speaker 4: that that's the favorite grandchild.

454
00:22:27,621 --> 00:22:28,222
Speaker 1: I think at the.

455
00:22:28,222 --> 00:22:31,861
Speaker 4: Heart of your relationships with your siblings, particularly with estrangements,

456
00:22:31,901 --> 00:22:35,262
Speaker 4: is that we're all just wounded children, right, And when

457
00:22:35,262 --> 00:22:39,262
Speaker 4: you're in your wounded child self, you're not thinking rationally,

458
00:22:39,341 --> 00:22:42,982
Speaker 4: you're not perhaps behaving in the best or most mature way.

459
00:22:43,022 --> 00:22:45,742
Speaker 4: But it can be really hard to be anything other

460
00:22:45,782 --> 00:22:48,862
Speaker 4: than that wounded child when you're dealing with your siblings.

461
00:22:48,901 --> 00:22:51,141
Speaker 2: And to be a child is to be in a

462
00:22:51,182 --> 00:22:54,342
Speaker 2: state of narcissism. My childhood I refer to it as

463
00:22:54,341 --> 00:22:56,381
Speaker 2: my childhood, and Clari always laughs at me because it's

464
00:22:56,422 --> 00:22:59,262
Speaker 2: as though she wasn't there, But like, I have these

465
00:22:59,302 --> 00:23:03,142
Speaker 2: memories and there were side characters, but really, Jesse's childhood

466
00:23:03,222 --> 00:23:05,381
Speaker 2: is a narrative that is told from Jesse's point of view.

467
00:23:05,422 --> 00:23:08,262
Speaker 1: It's funny you say that because when my father is

468
00:23:08,302 --> 00:23:10,662
Speaker 1: with his siblings, he taught about my mother.

469
00:23:11,222 --> 00:23:12,942
Speaker 3: I do the same. I do the same.

470
00:23:13,141 --> 00:23:16,182
Speaker 2: And then you have a brother say that this thing

471
00:23:16,222 --> 00:23:19,462
Speaker 2: happened or that they felt as though this dynamic existed,

472
00:23:19,581 --> 00:23:22,421
Speaker 2: and you're like, well, that fundamentally conflicts with my memory

473
00:23:22,462 --> 00:23:26,621
Speaker 2: of my childhood, and you can't reconcile that you lived

474
00:23:26,621 --> 00:23:29,861
Speaker 2: in the same house and yet lived totally different lives.

475
00:23:30,302 --> 00:23:33,461
Speaker 4: And then of of course being a parent watching dynamics

476
00:23:33,542 --> 00:23:38,582
Speaker 4: established between your children, watching those sibling dynamics and sometimes

477
00:23:38,581 --> 00:23:41,101
Speaker 4: really hard to know when to intervene and when not

478
00:23:41,702 --> 00:23:43,982
Speaker 4: and how much you just have to let play things out,

479
00:23:44,022 --> 00:23:48,181
Speaker 4: and watching allegiances change over the years and dynamics change

480
00:23:48,182 --> 00:23:51,422
Speaker 4: over the years. Like Remy and Luca, for example, they're

481
00:23:51,422 --> 00:23:55,141
Speaker 4: eleven years apart, so for most of Remy's life, Luca

482
00:23:55,302 --> 00:23:57,182
Speaker 4: was like a third parent to him, and they kind

483
00:23:57,222 --> 00:23:59,141
Speaker 4: of what are they going to have in common? But

484
00:23:59,262 --> 00:24:02,382
Speaker 4: now Luca's twenty seven and Remy sixteen, and the.

485
00:24:02,381 --> 00:24:03,701
Speaker 1: Gap has just closed.

486
00:24:04,141 --> 00:24:06,821
Speaker 4: I think Luca's gotten less mature and Remy's got more mature,

487
00:24:06,861 --> 00:24:09,102
Speaker 4: and they've kind of met in the middle, and so

488
00:24:09,182 --> 00:24:12,981
Speaker 4: that's that's like a delight. But at the same time,

489
00:24:13,581 --> 00:24:16,942
Speaker 4: I also know people whose children are estranged from each other,

490
00:24:17,061 --> 00:24:20,662
Speaker 4: and it is apparently gut ranging for them.

491
00:24:20,942 --> 00:24:24,861
Speaker 2: Amelia, did you know that Maya has a real complicated

492
00:24:24,901 --> 00:24:27,462
Speaker 2: relationship with her parents' dog, that she has a real

493
00:24:27,542 --> 00:24:30,821
Speaker 2: jealous relationship, like it's the other sibling, Like Maya has

494
00:24:30,861 --> 00:24:33,222
Speaker 2: a real you should look at Maya looking at this dog.

495
00:24:33,621 --> 00:24:37,702
Speaker 5: I was kind of bring up maybe a more interesting example,

496
00:24:37,742 --> 00:24:43,621
Speaker 5: which is the Kennedy family, you know, the American political dynasty,

497
00:24:43,782 --> 00:24:45,661
Speaker 5: and we'll talk about them a little bit later in

498
00:24:45,702 --> 00:24:46,462
Speaker 5: this podcast.

499
00:24:46,542 --> 00:24:50,142
Speaker 1: But John F. Kennedy and Robert F. Kennedy were two

500
00:24:50,462 --> 00:24:51,982
Speaker 1: American politicians. John F.

501
00:24:52,061 --> 00:24:56,542
Speaker 5: Kennedy was assassinated and his wife Jackie and Nassis started

502
00:24:56,581 --> 00:25:00,061
Speaker 5: an affair in the aftermath of the assassination in her

503
00:25:00,101 --> 00:25:01,421
Speaker 5: grief with Robert F.

504
00:25:01,502 --> 00:25:04,702
Speaker 1: Kennedy, his brother who was then also assassinated, who was.

505
00:25:04,661 --> 00:25:07,901
Speaker 5: Then also assassinated. And you might remember also that Joe

506
00:25:07,942 --> 00:25:12,701
Speaker 5: Biden's son Bo died of brain cancer, and then his

507
00:25:12,982 --> 00:25:18,701
Speaker 5: other son Hunter started a relationship with Bo's wife. And

508
00:25:19,302 --> 00:25:21,941
Speaker 5: you look at those stories and they seem kind of

509
00:25:22,061 --> 00:25:23,581
Speaker 5: preposterous almost, or.

510
00:25:23,661 --> 00:25:25,221
Speaker 1: Just that, but they're not.

511
00:25:25,422 --> 00:25:27,821
Speaker 5: Because the thing about siblings is, and to your earlier

512
00:25:27,901 --> 00:25:30,021
Speaker 5: question here about why they cut so deep when they

513
00:25:30,061 --> 00:25:32,701
Speaker 5: go wrong, your sibling is like a carbon copy but

514
00:25:32,821 --> 00:25:36,821
Speaker 5: with some key fundamental differences, and so it's like Uncanny

515
00:25:36,901 --> 00:25:41,022
Speaker 5: Valley looking at that siblings. No wonder this often happens

516
00:25:41,061 --> 00:25:45,141
Speaker 5: where siblings end up in relationships with their siblings' former partners.

517
00:25:45,182 --> 00:25:47,581
Speaker 4: That is so true so the Murdocks did go to

518
00:25:47,661 --> 00:25:51,141
Speaker 4: therapy just like it was depicted in succession. In about

519
00:25:51,141 --> 00:25:54,942
Speaker 4: twenty ten, Rupert called them all to like a weekend

520
00:25:55,462 --> 00:25:59,302
Speaker 4: of therapy in the Southern Highlands, Yes, in New South Wales,

521
00:25:59,341 --> 00:26:01,981
Speaker 4: and it was according to James, it went very badly.

522
00:26:02,101 --> 00:26:03,702
Speaker 4: I think it came up in the court case as well.

523
00:26:03,942 --> 00:26:06,422
Speaker 4: But they all felt like they were just being manipulated

524
00:26:06,462 --> 00:26:09,222
Speaker 4: and it was all just like gas lighting and recriminations

525
00:26:09,341 --> 00:26:12,381
Speaker 4: and all of those things. And James made the comment

526
00:26:12,462 --> 00:26:14,501
Speaker 4: that the therapist was a bit outmatched.

527
00:26:15,182 --> 00:26:17,101
Speaker 3: Can you there's no therapist who is qualified.

528
00:26:17,141 --> 00:26:17,302
Speaker 4: No.

529
00:26:18,262 --> 00:26:20,621
Speaker 5: I had to bring up Rupert is clearly a man

530
00:26:20,661 --> 00:26:24,181
Speaker 5: of astonishing pettiness and I know we love microaggressions on

531
00:26:24,222 --> 00:26:27,262
Speaker 5: the show. One amazing revelation that I had to bring

532
00:26:27,341 --> 00:26:29,101
Speaker 5: up with the group is did you hear that when

533
00:26:29,141 --> 00:26:31,982
Speaker 5: Jerry Hall moved out of their bell A home after

534
00:26:32,262 --> 00:26:34,981
Speaker 5: Jerry Hall was married to Rupert for a time, he

535
00:26:35,022 --> 00:26:36,341
Speaker 5: sent her an email divorcing her.

536
00:26:36,381 --> 00:26:39,621
Speaker 3: Actually she has micro that's a bit micro petty.

537
00:26:39,702 --> 00:26:42,702
Speaker 5: She had to provide receipts of her belongings to prove

538
00:26:42,861 --> 00:26:44,022
Speaker 5: that they belonged to her.

539
00:26:44,222 --> 00:26:45,742
Speaker 1: I wish you could take them out of the house.

540
00:26:45,821 --> 00:26:47,341
Speaker 1: No therapist could compete with that.

541
00:26:47,542 --> 00:26:50,381
Speaker 3: No one is cheaper than a rich person, No one.

542
00:26:50,581 --> 00:26:51,542
Speaker 1: Out loud is in a moment.

543
00:26:51,581 --> 00:26:53,941
Speaker 4: We've got some recommendations that were a little excited about,

544
00:26:53,982 --> 00:26:55,742
Speaker 4: and one of them is a little bit sexy.

545
00:27:00,581 --> 00:27:05,502
Speaker 1: Vibes ideas atmosphere, something casual, something fun. This is my

546
00:27:05,581 --> 00:27:06,542
Speaker 1: best recommendation.

547
00:27:07,702 --> 00:27:10,022
Speaker 4: It's Friday, so we're going to help set up your

548
00:27:10,022 --> 00:27:12,661
Speaker 4: weekend with our best recommendations.

549
00:27:12,661 --> 00:27:15,061
Speaker 1: Amelia, do you want to go first? I would love to.

550
00:27:15,861 --> 00:27:20,661
Speaker 5: My recommendation is something that I mentioned before, which is

551
00:27:21,061 --> 00:27:24,661
Speaker 5: a book called Ask Not The Kennedys and the Women

552
00:27:24,742 --> 00:27:25,542
Speaker 5: They Destroyed?

553
00:27:25,901 --> 00:27:27,502
Speaker 2: Is this a new book, because I think I've heard

554
00:27:27,502 --> 00:27:28,621
Speaker 2: people talking about.

555
00:27:28,341 --> 00:27:28,901
Speaker 1: This new wish.

556
00:27:29,462 --> 00:27:30,782
Speaker 4: You told me you were reading a book about the

557
00:27:30,821 --> 00:27:32,302
Speaker 4: Kennedy women, and I went and bought it, and I

558
00:27:32,302 --> 00:27:32,982
Speaker 4: bought the wrong book.

559
00:27:33,022 --> 00:27:34,302
Speaker 1: But I'm deeply engraced in that.

560
00:27:36,061 --> 00:27:39,621
Speaker 5: So this is by Maureen Callahan. The reason I wanted

561
00:27:39,661 --> 00:27:41,341
Speaker 5: to read it. I was never that interested in the

562
00:27:41,422 --> 00:27:45,701
Speaker 5: Kennedy's camelot political dynasty. Knew vaguely who they were, but

563
00:27:45,942 --> 00:27:47,542
Speaker 5: would never have thought to read a book about them.

564
00:27:47,542 --> 00:27:49,742
Speaker 1: Two things changed. The first, Robert F.

565
00:27:49,821 --> 00:27:53,702
Speaker 5: Kennedy Junior and his deep weirdness. You recall the stories,

566
00:27:53,742 --> 00:27:55,741
Speaker 5: the worm in his brain, the dumping, the bear in

567
00:27:55,782 --> 00:27:56,462
Speaker 5: Central Park.

568
00:27:56,542 --> 00:27:57,581
Speaker 1: He's a weird guy.

569
00:27:57,702 --> 00:28:00,542
Speaker 5: And then he had the relationship with the journalist Olivia Nuzzy.

570
00:28:00,661 --> 00:28:03,262
Speaker 5: I wanted to know how he turned out so weird.

571
00:28:03,061 --> 00:28:05,542
Speaker 2: Because I kept going, isn't this a respectable fan like.

572
00:28:05,542 --> 00:28:07,421
Speaker 1: Exactly family is going on? Yeah.

573
00:28:07,542 --> 00:28:11,581
Speaker 4: Fun fact, if you're watching White Lotus Patrick Schwartzenegger, who

574
00:28:11,621 --> 00:28:15,501
Speaker 4: plays Saxon, the eldest son of the southern couple in

575
00:28:15,542 --> 00:28:17,261
Speaker 4: White Lotus, he's a Kennedy.

576
00:28:17,422 --> 00:28:18,821
Speaker 1: You can tell that by looking at his hair and

577
00:28:18,861 --> 00:28:19,222
Speaker 1: his jaw.

578
00:28:19,542 --> 00:28:23,141
Speaker 5: The second is that MEA and I have developed this

579
00:28:23,182 --> 00:28:25,421
Speaker 5: all abiding love that I know you've spoken of on

580
00:28:25,462 --> 00:28:28,502
Speaker 5: the show. For Carolyne Bassett Kennedy, who was the wife

581
00:28:28,542 --> 00:28:31,262
Speaker 5: of John F. Kennedy Junior. They died very tragically in

582
00:28:31,262 --> 00:28:33,662
Speaker 5: a plane crash in the late nineties. She very much

583
00:28:33,661 --> 00:28:36,901
Speaker 5: embodied nineties style. I love the nineties. I grew up

584
00:28:36,901 --> 00:28:39,422
Speaker 5: in the nineties. I want to inhale everything about them.

585
00:28:39,502 --> 00:28:42,342
Speaker 5: So those two things made me think I need to

586
00:28:42,422 --> 00:28:45,222
Speaker 5: learn more about the Kennedys and this so called Kennedy curse.

587
00:28:45,262 --> 00:28:47,142
Speaker 1: You hear about it. I've ever heard that expression.

588
00:28:47,702 --> 00:28:51,582
Speaker 5: These stories in this book are extraordinary. The weirdness of

589
00:28:51,582 --> 00:28:55,142
Speaker 5: this family, the depravity of it, really just blows your mind.

590
00:28:55,142 --> 00:28:57,422
Speaker 1: It was like a ton of children, right, big Catholic family.

591
00:28:57,422 --> 00:29:00,622
Speaker 5: There were eleven children in the family of John F.

592
00:29:00,702 --> 00:29:04,102
Speaker 5: Kennedy and Robert F. Kennedy, the original ones, and they

593
00:29:04,142 --> 00:29:08,022
Speaker 5: have always treated women badly, both women within the family,

594
00:29:08,102 --> 00:29:10,421
Speaker 5: women who have married into the family, women who have

595
00:29:10,702 --> 00:29:15,782
Speaker 5: dated members of the family have ended up dead, mentally unwell,

596
00:29:16,182 --> 00:29:17,181
Speaker 5: deeply depressed.

597
00:29:17,302 --> 00:29:20,142
Speaker 1: It was not one of the eleven siblings, a girl

598
00:29:20,422 --> 00:29:22,822
Speaker 1: who had a mental illness, and she was just sent

599
00:29:22,862 --> 00:29:24,142
Speaker 1: away for her whole life.

600
00:29:24,182 --> 00:29:26,582
Speaker 5: She was sent away for her whole life. Her parents

601
00:29:26,661 --> 00:29:29,662
Speaker 5: never visited her and silent her away to an asylum

602
00:29:29,702 --> 00:29:31,822
Speaker 5: and in England they were living in the US, they

603
00:29:31,862 --> 00:29:35,661
Speaker 5: never saw her again. You just learned something in every chapter. So,

604
00:29:35,782 --> 00:29:39,502
Speaker 5: for instance, I had no idea that both Robert F.

605
00:29:39,582 --> 00:29:42,262
Speaker 5: Kennedy and John F. Kennedy were both having an affair

606
00:29:42,262 --> 00:29:44,302
Speaker 5: with Marilyn Monroe at the same time.

607
00:29:45,182 --> 00:29:46,062
Speaker 3: So did they know.

608
00:29:46,542 --> 00:29:50,262
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was part of the whole the whole shebang weird.

609
00:29:50,622 --> 00:29:53,622
Speaker 5: There was multiple instances of this in the family. Also

610
00:29:53,742 --> 00:29:56,822
Speaker 5: another crazy story is Ted Kennedy, who was the brother

611
00:29:56,942 --> 00:29:59,501
Speaker 5: of Robert and John and was regarded as a bit

612
00:29:59,542 --> 00:30:02,542
Speaker 5: of a screw up, but when they were both assassinated,

613
00:30:02,582 --> 00:30:05,501
Speaker 5: all the political hopes turned to him. The problem was

614
00:30:05,742 --> 00:30:08,221
Speaker 5: that he when he was very drunk one day, as

615
00:30:08,262 --> 00:30:11,302
Speaker 5: he often was, he he drove off a bridge and

616
00:30:11,542 --> 00:30:14,182
Speaker 5: a woman was in the car with him, and the

617
00:30:14,222 --> 00:30:16,542
Speaker 5: car drove off the bridge, sunk to the bottom of

618
00:30:16,582 --> 00:30:19,382
Speaker 5: the ocean. He got out, but he left her in

619
00:30:19,462 --> 00:30:19,742
Speaker 5: the car.

620
00:30:19,862 --> 00:30:21,742
Speaker 1: It's a succession, and didn't tell anyone.

621
00:30:21,822 --> 00:30:24,302
Speaker 5: Didn't tell anyone until the next morning, and they could

622
00:30:24,302 --> 00:30:27,102
Speaker 5: have rescued her if he told someone. And during that

623
00:30:27,222 --> 00:30:29,862
Speaker 5: night he was staying at a hotel, he complained about

624
00:30:29,862 --> 00:30:31,582
Speaker 5: how much noise the people in the room next to

625
00:30:31,622 --> 00:30:32,182
Speaker 5: him were making.

626
00:30:32,262 --> 00:30:32,981
Speaker 1: Couldn't sleep.

627
00:30:33,582 --> 00:30:37,222
Speaker 2: So he's just can I asked, JFK was nice guy?

628
00:30:37,342 --> 00:30:37,582
Speaker 6: Right?

629
00:30:37,902 --> 00:30:40,622
Speaker 1: No, none of them was JFK.

630
00:30:40,822 --> 00:30:44,382
Speaker 4: The dad, No, no, no, heng one, the one who married

631
00:30:44,422 --> 00:30:47,622
Speaker 4: Carolyn Kennedy. It's interesting because I'm reading the book about

632
00:30:47,702 --> 00:30:50,742
Speaker 4: Carolyn that really goes into a lot of detail about him.

633
00:30:51,502 --> 00:30:52,182
Speaker 1: He wasn't a.

634
00:30:52,222 --> 00:30:56,982
Speaker 4: Terrible person, and he had chronic undiagnosed adhd that I've

635
00:30:57,022 --> 00:31:00,102
Speaker 4: diagnosed by reading it, and I think that's part of

636
00:31:01,062 --> 00:31:02,622
Speaker 4: you know, he was a chosen son. He was the

637
00:31:02,661 --> 00:31:05,262
Speaker 4: Lachlan Murdock of that family. I mean, JFK only had

638
00:31:05,302 --> 00:31:08,222
Speaker 4: two kids. He wasn't necessarily the guy you wanted to

639
00:31:08,262 --> 00:31:10,502
Speaker 4: be married to. I don't think he was a cheaterah

640
00:31:10,582 --> 00:31:14,462
Speaker 4: like his dad, but he was fairly volatile. And yeah,

641
00:31:14,502 --> 00:31:16,661
Speaker 4: I think he was pretty selfish in terms of the

642
00:31:16,742 --> 00:31:18,662
Speaker 4: Kennedy men are all about themselves.

643
00:31:18,982 --> 00:31:22,661
Speaker 5: I'm fascinating apart from the sort of tabloidy interest of it,

644
00:31:22,702 --> 00:31:25,862
Speaker 5: which is definitely there for me. As I'm getting older,

645
00:31:25,902 --> 00:31:28,661
Speaker 5: I'm finding that I'm more interested in reading nonfiction. I

646
00:31:28,742 --> 00:31:31,102
Speaker 5: never used to read nonfiction, and now I like to

647
00:31:31,182 --> 00:31:35,422
Speaker 5: read about how children are raised, why people turn out

648
00:31:35,462 --> 00:31:38,902
Speaker 5: the way they do, family dynamics. There's plenty of family

649
00:31:38,982 --> 00:31:40,302
Speaker 5: dynamics to analyze here.

650
00:31:40,702 --> 00:31:43,102
Speaker 4: By all accounts, he was a lovely person and given

651
00:31:43,182 --> 00:31:45,822
Speaker 4: the life that he grew up in, was very very normal,

652
00:31:45,862 --> 00:31:47,622
Speaker 4: Like he liked to just go rollerblading in the streets

653
00:31:47,622 --> 00:31:50,142
Speaker 4: of New York and everyone said he was a really nice,

654
00:31:50,262 --> 00:31:54,421
Speaker 4: good person. So he wasn't awful, but was complicated.

655
00:31:54,462 --> 00:31:55,941
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're all very complicated.

656
00:31:56,022 --> 00:31:59,142
Speaker 5: He saw his father get shot and die when he

657
00:31:59,182 --> 00:32:01,742
Speaker 5: was four years old, so that's going to be a.

658
00:32:01,702 --> 00:32:05,741
Speaker 2: Trauma, intergenerational trauma, maya, what's your recommendation.

659
00:32:05,222 --> 00:32:06,022
Speaker 1: It's very different.

660
00:32:07,222 --> 00:32:09,222
Speaker 4: Do you know that the most searched for term by

661
00:32:09,222 --> 00:32:13,102
Speaker 4: women looking for porn is lesbian and threesome. They're two

662
00:32:13,182 --> 00:32:16,181
Speaker 4: of the top terms. And we know this here at

663
00:32:16,222 --> 00:32:21,302
Speaker 4: MMA MEA because we have just launched a new it's

664
00:32:21,342 --> 00:32:24,702
Speaker 4: not really a podcast, it's like an audio erotica series.

665
00:32:24,782 --> 00:32:28,662
Speaker 4: It's called Butter and it's basically we're sort of dropping

666
00:32:29,142 --> 00:32:32,942
Speaker 4: the episodes in batches with spice ratings.

667
00:32:32,982 --> 00:32:34,102
Speaker 1: It's sort of erotic fiction.

668
00:32:34,182 --> 00:32:36,102
Speaker 4: I don't know if you remember back in the nineties

669
00:32:36,542 --> 00:32:38,302
Speaker 4: there was a big surge in erotic fiction.

670
00:32:38,542 --> 00:32:40,102
Speaker 1: Now there are the.

671
00:32:39,742 --> 00:32:42,742
Speaker 4: Fourth Wing books, which some people refer to as very smart.

672
00:32:42,782 --> 00:32:44,661
Speaker 4: Of course, there's fifty Shades of Gray. So there's a

673
00:32:44,661 --> 00:32:48,582
Speaker 4: long history of women being interested in erotica instead of

674
00:32:48,622 --> 00:32:52,262
Speaker 4: you know, close up bits of porn, which some women

675
00:32:52,302 --> 00:32:55,421
Speaker 4: are into, but a lot of women like a different experience.

676
00:32:56,062 --> 00:33:00,062
Speaker 4: So we have got these stories. They're all from a

677
00:33:00,062 --> 00:33:03,022
Speaker 4: woman's point of view. The idea is that it could

678
00:33:03,102 --> 00:33:06,421
Speaker 4: be you and We've got voiceover artists from different ages

679
00:33:06,462 --> 00:33:09,461
Speaker 4: and different backgrounds to reflect as many different sort of

680
00:33:09,582 --> 00:33:15,622
Speaker 4: women's fantasies as possible. Threesomes, lesbians, butt play. Princess plugs apparently.

681
00:33:15,102 --> 00:33:15,542
Speaker 1: Are a thing.

682
00:33:15,622 --> 00:33:16,461
Speaker 3: What a princess like?

683
00:33:16,542 --> 00:33:19,542
Speaker 4: Bdsm It's a nice word for a butt plug. Some

684
00:33:19,582 --> 00:33:22,862
Speaker 4: people are into that. All of those are either already

685
00:33:22,862 --> 00:33:26,942
Speaker 4: released or coming ha ha. Here's a little excerpt as

686
00:33:26,942 --> 00:33:30,981
Speaker 4: to how it sounds.

687
00:33:31,702 --> 00:33:36,822
Speaker 6: She knows she's caught me out. She leans forward, gaze

688
00:33:36,862 --> 00:33:40,942
Speaker 6: fixed on mine, her full lips tease a smile as

689
00:33:40,942 --> 00:33:44,942
Speaker 6: she stands and holds out a hand, tilts her head slightly,

690
00:33:45,942 --> 00:33:47,222
Speaker 6: a silent invitation.

691
00:33:49,822 --> 00:33:52,862
Speaker 7: I make my way to the bar, flashing the bartender.

692
00:33:52,902 --> 00:33:56,421
Speaker 7: What I hope is a confident smile. I'd like a

693
00:33:56,502 --> 00:34:02,622
Speaker 7: red wine, please, I tell him something I don't know bold.

694
00:34:03,222 --> 00:34:07,182
Speaker 4: These are, honestly so, they're so good. Producer Ruth has

695
00:34:07,262 --> 00:34:10,422
Speaker 4: a little tip. Make sure if you're listening in your AirPod.

696
00:34:10,422 --> 00:34:12,142
Speaker 4: It's probably not something to listen to you on speaker

697
00:34:12,222 --> 00:34:13,102
Speaker 4: unless you're alone.

698
00:34:13,182 --> 00:34:15,381
Speaker 1: But if you're listening on your eropods, make sure they're charged.

699
00:34:15,422 --> 00:34:17,981
Speaker 4: Because she was listening in a public place and then

700
00:34:18,302 --> 00:34:20,821
Speaker 4: she didn't realize that her AirPods had run out of

701
00:34:20,822 --> 00:34:22,742
Speaker 4: bat trees and it just was coming through the speaker.

702
00:34:23,382 --> 00:34:26,182
Speaker 4: We did this survey and we wanted to find out

703
00:34:26,261 --> 00:34:30,062
Speaker 4: what fantasies women had and what sort of language did

704
00:34:30,102 --> 00:34:33,902
Speaker 4: women want to use. So, for example, nobody liked the

705
00:34:34,022 --> 00:34:35,582
Speaker 4: term velvet mound.

706
00:34:36,062 --> 00:34:39,342
Speaker 1: You know, sometimes you can be yeah, so it's all.

707
00:34:39,142 --> 00:34:42,142
Speaker 4: Just you know, the favorite I love this favorite places

708
00:34:42,181 --> 00:34:44,661
Speaker 4: for a fantasy to take place. We're in your own bed,

709
00:34:45,261 --> 00:34:48,701
Speaker 4: followed by hotel room. There's some languishing going on. It's

710
00:34:48,902 --> 00:34:51,701
Speaker 4: fantasies for lazy girls. So we will put a link

711
00:34:52,022 --> 00:34:55,582
Speaker 4: in the show notes or just search Butter, Yes, Butter

712
00:34:56,181 --> 00:34:57,462
Speaker 4: wherever you get your podcasts.

713
00:34:57,781 --> 00:35:01,981
Speaker 2: My recommendation, Amelia, have you seen the movie The Apprentice yet?

714
00:35:02,302 --> 00:35:08,062
Speaker 1: No? I can't tell me why I should. Okay, yes, Hello,

715
00:35:08,342 --> 00:35:11,301
Speaker 1: this is Donald Trump from mister Cohne. Thank you so much,

716
00:35:11,422 --> 00:35:20,261
Speaker 1: Donald Who Roy Kohn, nice to meet you, the Roy

717
00:35:20,342 --> 00:35:22,302
Speaker 1: Cohn You're brutal, guilty as John.

718
00:35:23,701 --> 00:35:28,822
Speaker 6: How You'm always went Who's rules. The first rule is attack, attack, attack.

719
00:35:29,062 --> 00:35:30,942
Speaker 7: It's going to be the finest building in the city,

720
00:35:30,822 --> 00:35:33,102
Speaker 7: maybe the country, in the world.

721
00:35:34,062 --> 00:35:34,901
Speaker 3: Have you heard of it, ma'am?

722
00:35:35,022 --> 00:35:37,342
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I can't bear it. I can have to

723
00:35:37,342 --> 00:35:39,822
Speaker 1: work out needs to sell that interesting.

724
00:35:39,982 --> 00:35:42,502
Speaker 2: So I'm the one who's not actually very interested in

725
00:35:42,542 --> 00:35:44,862
Speaker 2: Donald Trump and who really leans out of the news cycle.

726
00:35:44,982 --> 00:35:48,661
Speaker 2: And yet I had seen articles about this movie and

727
00:35:48,701 --> 00:35:50,942
Speaker 2: how it was struggling to find a distributor in the

728
00:35:51,022 --> 00:35:54,661
Speaker 2: US because Trump's lawyers were saying, you can't show this movie.

729
00:35:54,942 --> 00:35:55,022
Speaker 5: Now.

730
00:35:55,102 --> 00:35:58,502
Speaker 2: It stars Jeremy Strong, who we know from Succession and

731
00:35:58,902 --> 00:36:03,022
Speaker 2: The Apprentice is I went in knowing nothing about this story.

732
00:36:03,661 --> 00:36:09,222
Speaker 2: Jeremy Strong plays Roy Kohane and Cohne was essentially Trump's mentor,

733
00:36:09,701 --> 00:36:12,822
Speaker 2: and it follows a very specific period of Trump's life,

734
00:36:12,862 --> 00:36:17,062
Speaker 2: like his ascension through New York socialite kind of life.

735
00:36:17,582 --> 00:36:21,181
Speaker 2: And it is so revealing to see those relationships that

736
00:36:21,261 --> 00:36:25,901
Speaker 2: he had, the way he treated his mentor, his relationship with.

737
00:36:26,261 --> 00:36:27,982
Speaker 3: I think it was his first wife that it.

738
00:36:27,982 --> 00:36:30,182
Speaker 1: Follows, Avana. That was Avana Trump.

739
00:36:30,342 --> 00:36:33,781
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is really really interesting. I don't want to

740
00:36:33,781 --> 00:36:36,701
Speaker 2: tell you too much about it, but it's pretty damning

741
00:36:37,022 --> 00:36:37,861
Speaker 2: in terms.

742
00:36:37,582 --> 00:36:38,862
Speaker 1: Of I'm so shocked.

743
00:36:39,982 --> 00:36:43,342
Speaker 5: Does it show that he's not a nice guy?

744
00:36:43,462 --> 00:36:43,861
Speaker 3: You know what?

745
00:36:43,982 --> 00:36:44,261
Speaker 1: It's like.

746
00:36:44,302 --> 00:36:46,902
Speaker 3: I had heard a lot of stories from us.

747
00:36:46,822 --> 00:36:49,542
Speaker 1: And you were like, I'm not sure. I do my

748
00:36:49,542 --> 00:36:50,181
Speaker 1: own research.

749
00:36:50,261 --> 00:36:53,022
Speaker 2: You know what, You hear the big stories, but sometimes

750
00:36:53,062 --> 00:36:54,502
Speaker 2: you just need to see the little.

751
00:36:54,221 --> 00:36:56,341
Speaker 1: Story and a lot of my cropettiness, you just need to.

752
00:36:56,261 --> 00:36:59,382
Speaker 2: See the little way that he engaged with this mentor

753
00:36:59,862 --> 00:37:03,461
Speaker 2: and his relationship with his father. Again, it is very

754
00:37:03,542 --> 00:37:06,781
Speaker 2: the Murdocks. It is very the Kennedy's in terms.

755
00:37:06,582 --> 00:37:08,502
Speaker 1: Of he never had his father's approval.

756
00:37:08,582 --> 00:37:10,701
Speaker 3: Oh what happened to his Like, I didn't know any

757
00:37:10,741 --> 00:37:10,942
Speaker 3: of this.

758
00:37:11,142 --> 00:37:13,341
Speaker 1: So it's brother died of our colorism, right, Yeah, that's

759
00:37:13,342 --> 00:37:14,501
Speaker 1: why he doesn't drink yep.

760
00:37:14,622 --> 00:37:16,221
Speaker 3: And so except for Dieko.

761
00:37:16,181 --> 00:37:19,142
Speaker 2: Jeremy Strong and a bunch of others from the film

762
00:37:19,342 --> 00:37:22,861
Speaker 2: were nominated for Academy Awards, like this is a very

763
00:37:23,261 --> 00:37:25,861
Speaker 2: in terms of reviews and stuff like this has been

764
00:37:25,942 --> 00:37:28,462
Speaker 2: very very highly reviewed. So it is called The Apprentice.

765
00:37:28,502 --> 00:37:31,142
Speaker 2: It is on stan It is definitely worth a watch.

766
00:37:31,902 --> 00:37:34,342
Speaker 2: After the break our best and Worst of the Week

767
00:37:34,902 --> 00:37:35,422
Speaker 2: out loud as.

768
00:37:35,462 --> 00:37:37,221
Speaker 4: If you want to listen to us every day of

769
00:37:37,261 --> 00:37:40,022
Speaker 4: the week, you can get access to exclusive segments on

770
00:37:40,102 --> 00:37:42,181
Speaker 4: Tuesdays and Thursdays.

771
00:37:41,701 --> 00:37:43,741
Speaker 1: By becoming a Mum and mea subscriber.

772
00:37:44,142 --> 00:37:46,261
Speaker 4: Follow the link in the show notes to subscribe and

773
00:37:46,302 --> 00:37:48,661
Speaker 4: support us, and a big thank you to all our

774
00:37:48,701 --> 00:37:49,781
Speaker 4: current subscribers.

775
00:38:01,582 --> 00:38:02,582
Speaker 1: It's time for Best and.

776
00:38:02,542 --> 00:38:04,221
Speaker 4: Worst, which is the part of the show where we

777
00:38:04,261 --> 00:38:06,701
Speaker 4: share a little more from our personal lives.

778
00:38:07,142 --> 00:38:11,982
Speaker 1: Amelia, you're the guest. Yes, go okay, I'll start with worst.

779
00:38:12,062 --> 00:38:13,022
Speaker 1: It's a little bit heavy.

780
00:38:13,822 --> 00:38:16,782
Speaker 5: I have a son and a daughter, and as mentioned,

781
00:38:16,781 --> 00:38:21,462
Speaker 5: they've both started school four and six twenty two months.

782
00:38:21,701 --> 00:38:25,062
Speaker 1: The four year old, who was a girl.

783
00:38:25,582 --> 00:38:29,142
Speaker 5: Had an accident at school about a year ago, and

784
00:38:29,302 --> 00:38:31,302
Speaker 5: she has a scar on her forehead.

785
00:38:31,462 --> 00:38:33,462
Speaker 1: A couple of things have happened recently that are very

786
00:38:33,542 --> 00:38:34,781
Speaker 1: upsetting to do with this scar.

787
00:38:35,102 --> 00:38:39,462
Speaker 5: So I've had two men, i'd say probably in their

788
00:38:39,502 --> 00:38:44,142
Speaker 5: fifties in my suburb say unpleasant things about the scar.

789
00:38:45,102 --> 00:38:47,102
Speaker 5: The other day, I was walking down the street with

790
00:38:47,142 --> 00:38:49,901
Speaker 5: her and a man walks past and he.

791
00:38:49,862 --> 00:38:50,661
Speaker 1: Says, nice bra.

792
00:38:50,942 --> 00:38:52,901
Speaker 5: And I think that's weird because I'm wearing a black

793
00:38:52,942 --> 00:38:55,021
Speaker 5: crew neck T shirt. You know, sometimes you wear something

794
00:38:55,062 --> 00:38:56,661
Speaker 5: and you're a bit conscious it shows your bra. But

795
00:38:56,701 --> 00:38:58,661
Speaker 5: I thought, no, I'm wearing a T shirt. Doesn't and

796
00:38:58,701 --> 00:38:59,661
Speaker 5: also shut up.

797
00:39:00,221 --> 00:39:03,221
Speaker 1: But I was a little unnerved, and then it hit

798
00:39:03,302 --> 00:39:06,421
Speaker 1: me he had said nice scar to my four year

799
00:39:06,422 --> 00:39:06,901
Speaker 1: old daughter.

800
00:39:07,701 --> 00:39:10,821
Speaker 5: And then a couple of months before that, we had

801
00:39:10,862 --> 00:39:15,902
Speaker 5: been getting her face painted and a man walks past

802
00:39:16,142 --> 00:39:19,702
Speaker 5: and he says that it's an improvement that she's getting

803
00:39:19,701 --> 00:39:20,422
Speaker 5: a face painted.

804
00:39:20,862 --> 00:39:23,902
Speaker 1: Oh my god, what sort of a grown man to

805
00:39:24,022 --> 00:39:26,982
Speaker 1: comments on the appearance of a child little and negatively.

806
00:39:27,701 --> 00:39:30,462
Speaker 5: So those are what I would deem matcrow aggressions. But

807
00:39:30,462 --> 00:39:33,501
Speaker 5: I've got some microaggressions to share too. The other day,

808
00:39:33,622 --> 00:39:35,942
Speaker 5: I was sitting at the bus stop with my two children,

809
00:39:36,062 --> 00:39:39,182
Speaker 5: and an old man who I'm sure meant well, says

810
00:39:39,221 --> 00:39:42,462
Speaker 5: to my daughter, I like your skirt. And she's very

811
00:39:42,502 --> 00:39:45,261
Speaker 5: shy and as is appropriate with a man she's never

812
00:39:45,302 --> 00:39:47,861
Speaker 5: met before. He's talking to her in public, and she

813
00:39:48,022 --> 00:39:50,622
Speaker 5: kind of, you know, looked demure, and then he said,

814
00:39:50,781 --> 00:39:52,781
Speaker 5: are you going to a party? And she didn't really

815
00:39:52,781 --> 00:39:54,981
Speaker 5: want to talk to him anymore, and so I said, yes,

816
00:39:55,022 --> 00:39:56,941
Speaker 5: we are, and then I moved her away from him,

817
00:39:57,422 --> 00:39:59,701
Speaker 5: and then he started marstering under his breath about how

818
00:39:59,781 --> 00:40:02,822
Speaker 5: rude she was what And I just thought to myself,

819
00:40:03,022 --> 00:40:05,462
Speaker 5: my son loves fashion just as much as my daughter,

820
00:40:05,542 --> 00:40:08,661
Speaker 5: because their children and they haven't yet been taught that

821
00:40:08,781 --> 00:40:11,422
Speaker 5: only girls are allowed to be interested in fashion, he

822
00:40:11,462 --> 00:40:14,701
Speaker 5: has a favorite T shirt? Has anyone ever said to

823
00:40:14,822 --> 00:40:17,301
Speaker 5: him nice T shirt going to a party? Can you

824
00:40:17,342 --> 00:40:19,741
Speaker 5: imagine it would be absurd to say that to a boy?

825
00:40:20,542 --> 00:40:23,502
Speaker 5: And then, just generally, I noticed that her behavior is

826
00:40:23,582 --> 00:40:26,622
Speaker 5: policed a lot more than his. So on a bus, like,

827
00:40:26,701 --> 00:40:29,022
Speaker 5: if she's not sitting down, the bus driver will have

828
00:40:29,062 --> 00:40:31,102
Speaker 5: no problems shouting at her to sit down. Fine, the

829
00:40:31,102 --> 00:40:32,861
Speaker 5: bus driver's got a job to do. The bus driver

830
00:40:32,942 --> 00:40:35,542
Speaker 5: needs to keep her safe. But I wonder why it's

831
00:40:35,582 --> 00:40:37,982
Speaker 5: never my son who's told to sit down in that way,

832
00:40:38,542 --> 00:40:40,821
Speaker 5: or why it's never my son who's told that he's

833
00:40:40,862 --> 00:40:43,622
Speaker 5: blocking the pavement in my suburb, which is filled with

834
00:40:44,062 --> 00:40:47,902
Speaker 5: rather grumpy old people talk to you by strangers. Yeah, exactly.

835
00:40:48,062 --> 00:40:50,542
Speaker 5: So I've got a control group. My control group is

836
00:40:50,582 --> 00:40:53,341
Speaker 5: my son, because they're very similar in age, they look

837
00:40:53,462 --> 00:40:56,741
Speaker 5: very similar, and one of them gets told things in

838
00:40:56,781 --> 00:40:59,381
Speaker 5: public that the other doesn't. The conclusion that I come

839
00:40:59,462 --> 00:41:04,022
Speaker 5: to is that we are still treating girls like public property.

840
00:41:04,342 --> 00:41:06,582
Speaker 5: We still think that girls are up for debate. If

841
00:41:06,582 --> 00:41:08,861
Speaker 5: a girl's walking down the street, how does she look,

842
00:41:08,902 --> 00:41:11,462
Speaker 5: how is she acting? Is she meeting my standards? Is

843
00:41:11,502 --> 00:41:13,422
Speaker 5: she acting the way I want her? To act.

844
00:41:13,701 --> 00:41:15,382
Speaker 1: If not, I will give her some feedback.

845
00:41:16,062 --> 00:41:20,221
Speaker 5: And boys, already at six, we're taught that boys don't

846
00:41:20,261 --> 00:41:22,622
Speaker 5: get that kind of feedback. Boys are a little bit

847
00:41:22,622 --> 00:41:24,861
Speaker 5: more serious that they just have a little bit more

848
00:41:24,902 --> 00:41:27,742
Speaker 5: of that. To be clear, I don't want people chiding

849
00:41:27,822 --> 00:41:30,301
Speaker 5: my son any more than I want them reprimanding my

850
00:41:30,422 --> 00:41:34,221
Speaker 5: daughter or commenting on my daughter. But it's very striking

851
00:41:34,302 --> 00:41:38,062
Speaker 5: to me that they are treated so differently in public.

852
00:41:39,142 --> 00:41:42,542
Speaker 4: I keep thinking about the scene in Barbie where she

853
00:41:42,661 --> 00:41:47,222
Speaker 4: comes to Earth and she's like, I've got this weird

854
00:41:47,302 --> 00:41:51,382
Speaker 4: feeling I've never had before. It's like awareness, but of myself.

855
00:41:52,741 --> 00:41:55,942
Speaker 4: It's like what it would be like to grow up

856
00:41:55,982 --> 00:41:58,741
Speaker 4: in a world where you weren't aware of being perceived,

857
00:41:59,781 --> 00:42:03,701
Speaker 4: which which is being a boy essentially in our society.

858
00:42:03,781 --> 00:42:07,222
Speaker 1: As a girl, you learn it. It's the soup wes women, right.

859
00:42:07,221 --> 00:42:09,262
Speaker 3: Yes, Wow, what's your best?

860
00:42:09,942 --> 00:42:12,942
Speaker 5: My best is that I have finally settled on my

861
00:42:13,062 --> 00:42:17,062
Speaker 5: mum uniform. It's taken as discussed many years. What I

862
00:42:17,142 --> 00:42:20,102
Speaker 5: struggled with after having children and figuring out what to

863
00:42:20,142 --> 00:42:23,502
Speaker 5: wear is I didn't want to wear ath leisure to

864
00:42:23,582 --> 00:42:26,662
Speaker 5: say do school pickup, but I didn't want to what's.

865
00:42:26,542 --> 00:42:29,821
Speaker 4: Wrong with jesse toe? What's wrong with the camel toe?

866
00:42:30,102 --> 00:42:31,622
Speaker 4: Jesse happy with that?

867
00:42:31,781 --> 00:42:32,062
Speaker 1: Leisure?

868
00:42:32,741 --> 00:42:35,181
Speaker 5: Has he ever felt right to me since the pandemic?

869
00:42:35,382 --> 00:42:37,022
Speaker 5: Maybe it's because I watch too much of it then

870
00:42:37,221 --> 00:42:39,942
Speaker 5: Now it just feels like too much in public. So

871
00:42:40,302 --> 00:42:43,702
Speaker 5: now I've hit on a item of clothing I always

872
00:42:43,862 --> 00:42:46,822
Speaker 5: scratched my head about, and that is a barrel leg gene.

873
00:42:47,302 --> 00:42:50,062
Speaker 5: I am accepting questions on this. I know it's controversial.

874
00:42:50,142 --> 00:42:53,661
Speaker 5: So you might know these as horseshoe jeans cowboys, we

875
00:42:53,741 --> 00:42:56,622
Speaker 5: know them as barrel jene. I mean, it's not a

876
00:42:56,661 --> 00:43:00,181
Speaker 5: good name. And they look ridiculous. The concept of them

877
00:43:00,342 --> 00:43:04,542
Speaker 5: is ridiculous. You put them on and it feels like

878
00:43:04,822 --> 00:43:07,062
Speaker 5: you're a little bit edgier and a little bit cooler

879
00:43:07,102 --> 00:43:09,221
Speaker 5: than you actually are. So you can get away with

880
00:43:09,261 --> 00:43:11,822
Speaker 5: sort of of throwing on the rest of your outfit

881
00:43:11,942 --> 00:43:15,062
Speaker 5: because you're already wearing something edgy and like a bit

882
00:43:15,102 --> 00:43:17,381
Speaker 5: more pushing of the jeans are saying I know what's

883
00:43:17,422 --> 00:43:19,622
Speaker 5: going on. My jeans are saying I know what's going on.

884
00:43:19,661 --> 00:43:21,542
Speaker 5: And then that allows me to have a side part.

885
00:43:21,781 --> 00:43:25,222
Speaker 5: You see what I'm saying, my millennial instinct.

886
00:43:24,942 --> 00:43:26,542
Speaker 2: No, I read an article the other day. You know

887
00:43:26,542 --> 00:43:28,542
Speaker 2: what the headline was, side part it's back.

888
00:43:28,781 --> 00:43:30,701
Speaker 1: It's because they're actually more flattering.

889
00:43:30,862 --> 00:43:31,861
Speaker 3: I think they are too hot.

890
00:43:31,902 --> 00:43:34,382
Speaker 2: Take I need to know where you got those janes.

891
00:43:34,582 --> 00:43:35,741
Speaker 3: Where you got She also.

892
00:43:35,542 --> 00:43:38,102
Speaker 4: Wears white barrel jeans. I can attest they look really

893
00:43:38,102 --> 00:43:40,382
Speaker 4: good on you, so inspired by you because you or

894
00:43:40,462 --> 00:43:43,301
Speaker 4: them to a dinner that we had, I was like,

895
00:43:43,342 --> 00:43:45,981
Speaker 4: they're amazing. Okay, I'm going to give them a guy.

896
00:43:46,302 --> 00:43:48,422
Speaker 4: So before Christmas, I went and I tried on some

897
00:43:48,502 --> 00:43:49,702
Speaker 4: pairs of barrel leg jeans.

898
00:43:49,982 --> 00:43:52,462
Speaker 1: Do you feel good? And them? I looked ridiculous. I

899
00:43:52,542 --> 00:43:53,502
Speaker 1: just looked ridiculous.

900
00:43:53,622 --> 00:43:55,542
Speaker 2: You know what, Melia is tall? I think you can

901
00:43:55,582 --> 00:43:56,982
Speaker 2: get away with it with a bit of heart. I

902
00:43:56,982 --> 00:43:57,821
Speaker 2: think you're too short for.

903
00:43:58,422 --> 00:44:01,661
Speaker 4: That's too I think I am. And what's also interesting

904
00:44:01,781 --> 00:44:03,902
Speaker 4: that I thought the white was a bold choice, especially

905
00:44:03,942 --> 00:44:07,502
Speaker 4: from other of young children. Bold choice white, I was phenomenal.

906
00:44:07,542 --> 00:44:08,421
Speaker 3: I love white jeans too.

907
00:44:09,382 --> 00:44:11,982
Speaker 5: Bo Yeah, okay, So I got them In Brisbane. I

908
00:44:12,022 --> 00:44:15,102
Speaker 5: went on a girl's trip away and we went shopping

909
00:44:15,221 --> 00:44:17,422
Speaker 5: because I never have time to go shopping anywhere, so

910
00:44:17,502 --> 00:44:19,942
Speaker 5: we finally had time to sort of try on clothes

911
00:44:19,982 --> 00:44:23,701
Speaker 5: as opposed to sort of walking into Vinnie's and grabbing

912
00:44:23,781 --> 00:44:26,382
Speaker 5: anything that fits me and walking out. So that was

913
00:44:26,422 --> 00:44:29,582
Speaker 5: a nice novelty. They're citizens of humanity. Okay, they're the

914
00:44:29,622 --> 00:44:31,821
Speaker 5: white barrel leg and I wear them, and I'm just

915
00:44:31,902 --> 00:44:35,301
Speaker 5: like I'm wearing a side part. I'm wearing not very

916
00:44:35,342 --> 00:44:37,982
Speaker 5: trendy sneakers and a very old T shirt. But it

917
00:44:38,022 --> 00:44:39,822
Speaker 5: doesn't matter because I'm barrel legged.

918
00:44:41,022 --> 00:44:44,182
Speaker 3: I love it all right, I'm going to do my west.

919
00:44:44,902 --> 00:44:49,221
Speaker 2: So we were recording this podcast at a separate studio recently,

920
00:44:49,382 --> 00:44:51,781
Speaker 2: and for some reason when we're at that studio, every

921
00:44:51,781 --> 00:44:53,622
Speaker 2: one of our cars somehow got damage.

922
00:44:53,701 --> 00:44:59,022
Speaker 1: Dash about it driving reversed into trees. Okay that other

923
00:44:59,062 --> 00:45:00,902
Speaker 1: people like cars swipe.

924
00:45:01,342 --> 00:45:02,582
Speaker 3: Mine was swine side.

925
00:45:02,741 --> 00:45:06,022
Speaker 2: So my little mirror was knocked off anyway. So I

926
00:45:06,102 --> 00:45:08,022
Speaker 2: just send the car blah blah blah. I get a

927
00:45:08,022 --> 00:45:10,622
Speaker 2: car back, drive it home, go to turn on the

928
00:45:10,622 --> 00:45:13,102
Speaker 2: next day, battery done. So to get the NRMA to

929
00:45:13,102 --> 00:45:16,221
Speaker 2: come over. So Anna Ram comes over and sort of

930
00:45:16,342 --> 00:45:19,622
Speaker 2: side plot. My big job for February of this year

931
00:45:19,661 --> 00:45:22,142
Speaker 2: has been mummyer out loud socials. So I've been having

932
00:45:22,181 --> 00:45:24,582
Speaker 2: so much fun on TikTok and Instagram.

933
00:45:24,142 --> 00:45:25,622
Speaker 1: And you're not languishing, you are.

934
00:45:25,622 --> 00:45:29,301
Speaker 2: I'm flourishing, not with my socials. So anyway, the NM

935
00:45:29,462 --> 00:45:31,182
Speaker 2: gets there and I'm like, look, I have a baby napping.

936
00:45:31,462 --> 00:45:33,901
Speaker 2: I went inside and did some work while they got

937
00:45:33,902 --> 00:45:36,982
Speaker 2: the car started. Anyway, I'm sitting on my phone and

938
00:45:37,062 --> 00:45:39,302
Speaker 2: you know the video that I did about how apparently

939
00:45:39,382 --> 00:45:41,622
Speaker 2: we'd been mispronouncing the word labia.

940
00:45:41,822 --> 00:45:44,462
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's labia. Did you know that I didn't.

941
00:45:44,741 --> 00:45:48,502
Speaker 2: Okay, apparently it's labia. So I'm editing a video about

942
00:45:48,942 --> 00:45:50,781
Speaker 2: LaBier and you guys are all saying it, and then

943
00:45:50,822 --> 00:45:53,142
Speaker 2: I'm I've got my phone and all of a sudden

944
00:45:53,181 --> 00:45:57,822
Speaker 2: it goes silent, and I'm like, why isn't my.

945
00:45:56,862 --> 00:45:57,902
Speaker 3: My volume working?

946
00:45:58,422 --> 00:46:00,661
Speaker 2: So I turned the volume up the loudest and I'm

947
00:46:00,701 --> 00:46:03,062
Speaker 2: just like, why isn't it And I hear Maya's voice

948
00:46:03,622 --> 00:46:08,941
Speaker 2: yelling LaBier from my car on the street because it's

949
00:46:08,942 --> 00:46:09,781
Speaker 2: coming through my car.

950
00:46:09,942 --> 00:46:10,701
Speaker 3: Radious, it is.

951
00:46:10,701 --> 00:46:13,461
Speaker 1: Literally an urban nightmare. That's not a safe work place

952
00:46:13,502 --> 00:46:14,142
Speaker 1: for that man.

953
00:46:14,622 --> 00:46:16,221
Speaker 2: That man was just trying to do his job, and

954
00:46:16,261 --> 00:46:18,582
Speaker 2: he's got you yelling LaBier through my car.

955
00:46:18,582 --> 00:46:20,502
Speaker 1: Play at least now I know it's now to pronounce it.

956
00:46:20,942 --> 00:46:23,542
Speaker 3: And the thing was. I was still like, this isn't working.

957
00:46:25,261 --> 00:46:26,462
Speaker 3: It's getting louder and louder.

958
00:46:26,822 --> 00:46:30,982
Speaker 2: And then that man was so traumatized that he somehow

959
00:46:30,982 --> 00:46:32,661
Speaker 2: disconnected my car play and it's just.

960
00:46:32,582 --> 00:46:33,301
Speaker 3: Never gonna work again.

961
00:46:33,382 --> 00:46:34,542
Speaker 1: Did he say anything to you?

962
00:46:35,142 --> 00:46:37,262
Speaker 2: I just stayed inside and I was like, clearly it's ready,

963
00:46:37,302 --> 00:46:38,302
Speaker 2: but I don't want to go outside.

964
00:46:38,661 --> 00:46:39,741
Speaker 1: I can never see him again.

965
00:46:40,221 --> 00:46:42,662
Speaker 2: And then he was like to speak of babies away,

966
00:46:43,261 --> 00:46:44,782
Speaker 2: I've got to go bye.

967
00:46:45,462 --> 00:46:46,502
Speaker 3: Do you know how to say labia?

968
00:46:46,582 --> 00:46:46,741
Speaker 1: Now?

969
00:46:46,781 --> 00:46:48,142
Speaker 3: So that ruined my day?

970
00:46:48,261 --> 00:46:49,022
Speaker 1: That's so good.

971
00:46:49,502 --> 00:46:53,902
Speaker 2: My best is swimming lessons. So we have started a

972
00:46:53,902 --> 00:46:54,461
Speaker 2: swimming lesson.

973
00:46:54,462 --> 00:46:55,941
Speaker 1: I thought that was your worst last week.

974
00:46:56,142 --> 00:46:59,542
Speaker 2: Well, last week we had lesson one and Luna was

975
00:46:59,902 --> 00:47:01,982
Speaker 2: would we say expelled? I think we'd say expelled.

976
00:47:02,022 --> 00:47:03,381
Speaker 1: I think she's self selected out.

977
00:47:03,502 --> 00:47:06,661
Speaker 2: Yeah, so she had a total meltdown, like your little

978
00:47:06,701 --> 00:47:09,102
Speaker 2: girl shy. Lunar is shy, and part of the swimming

979
00:47:09,142 --> 00:47:11,661
Speaker 2: lessons is being held by the instructor and Luna is like,

980
00:47:11,902 --> 00:47:12,502
Speaker 2: absolutely not.

981
00:47:12,781 --> 00:47:13,942
Speaker 1: She got very clear boundaries.

982
00:47:13,942 --> 00:47:16,221
Speaker 3: She's got clear boundaries, and she just went, let's get

983
00:47:16,221 --> 00:47:16,822
Speaker 3: out of the pool.

984
00:47:16,862 --> 00:47:19,781
Speaker 2: So we needed to get out early and we just

985
00:47:19,822 --> 00:47:23,381
Speaker 2: watched the lesson all week I was trying to bring

986
00:47:23,462 --> 00:47:26,221
Speaker 2: up swimming lessons and be like, waking up so much fun.

987
00:47:26,221 --> 00:47:29,942
Speaker 1: It's overell, I'm learning this, yeah.

988
00:47:29,741 --> 00:47:30,182
Speaker 3: I thought.

989
00:47:30,302 --> 00:47:32,661
Speaker 2: I was like, I don't know, warming her up to it,

990
00:47:32,701 --> 00:47:34,661
Speaker 2: and every time I'd bring it up, she was like, oh, wait,

991
00:47:34,822 --> 00:47:36,502
Speaker 2: all done, all done, and I was like, no, no, we

992
00:47:36,542 --> 00:47:39,262
Speaker 2: got to go on Friday. So we get there on Friday.

993
00:47:39,261 --> 00:47:40,821
Speaker 2: She sees the pool, she doesn't cry, and I'm like,

994
00:47:41,142 --> 00:47:43,542
Speaker 2: this is good. And then we get in the pool.

995
00:47:43,982 --> 00:47:45,582
Speaker 2: She got a little bit upset, she was a little

996
00:47:45,622 --> 00:47:49,022
Speaker 2: bit not happy, and then there was no languishing in

997
00:47:49,062 --> 00:47:51,902
Speaker 2: that pool. She flourished. She loved it, she was smiling.

998
00:47:52,502 --> 00:47:56,982
Speaker 2: I was so crowd and I was like, this is resilience.

999
00:47:57,181 --> 00:48:00,301
Speaker 2: We have shown resilience as just a little girl, Claire,

1000
00:48:00,342 --> 00:48:02,381
Speaker 2: and I kept saying, you are most improved. Because her

1001
00:48:02,422 --> 00:48:05,301
Speaker 2: cousin Matilda is also in the class. Matilda is very good.

1002
00:48:05,342 --> 00:48:08,102
Speaker 2: She's best and fairest, we've decided, because she approaches everything

1003
00:48:08,102 --> 00:48:12,741
Speaker 2: with enthusiasm. But I was so proud that Luna could

1004
00:48:12,822 --> 00:48:15,821
Speaker 2: come back and just like throw herself into it, which

1005
00:48:15,862 --> 00:48:17,062
Speaker 2: is basically a thought now.

1006
00:48:17,181 --> 00:48:22,661
Speaker 4: When Jesse was describing how badly Luna hated the assuming

1007
00:48:22,741 --> 00:48:28,781
Speaker 4: lesson Claire was like Matilda. By contrast, exclusively experienced joy in.

1008
00:48:28,741 --> 00:48:30,661
Speaker 1: The pulpit loves it.

1009
00:48:31,622 --> 00:48:35,662
Speaker 4: My worst was Monday's show. I'm hoping that out louders

1010
00:48:35,661 --> 00:48:37,461
Speaker 4: won't go, yeah, it's pretty shit.

1011
00:48:37,942 --> 00:48:39,301
Speaker 1: It wasn't the show that was shit.

1012
00:48:39,542 --> 00:48:42,302
Speaker 4: It was me, and I know that our incredible production

1013
00:48:42,502 --> 00:48:45,502
Speaker 4: team will have edited it to make me sound better.

1014
00:48:45,862 --> 00:48:48,502
Speaker 4: But what's interesting, I'd say I'm pretty good at podcasting.

1015
00:48:48,542 --> 00:48:50,821
Speaker 4: I've been doing it quite a long time. I would

1016
00:48:50,862 --> 00:48:54,822
Speaker 4: say I have way more than the ten thousand hours

1017
00:48:54,862 --> 00:48:58,862
Speaker 4: that you require to become good at something. But what's

1018
00:48:58,982 --> 00:49:02,181
Speaker 4: interesting about this job is that sometimes you can I

1019
00:49:02,261 --> 00:49:06,942
Speaker 4: can surprise myself with being absolutely rubbish, and I just was,

1020
00:49:06,982 --> 00:49:09,382
Speaker 4: and I don't know why. Sometimes there are different reasons

1021
00:49:09,382 --> 00:49:11,542
Speaker 4: that I've been rubbish in the past. Sometimes it's a

1022
00:49:11,622 --> 00:49:14,861
Speaker 4: lack of preparation. That wasn't the case this time. I

1023
00:49:14,982 --> 00:49:15,502
Speaker 4: was prepared.

1024
00:49:15,582 --> 00:49:17,062
Speaker 3: Sometimes it's too much preparation.

1025
00:49:17,302 --> 00:49:19,982
Speaker 4: Sometimes yes, you have to just be like Goldilocks and

1026
00:49:20,022 --> 00:49:21,062
Speaker 4: get just the right amount.

1027
00:49:21,741 --> 00:49:23,741
Speaker 1: I was using a bit of AI for my preparation.

1028
00:49:23,862 --> 00:49:25,661
Speaker 1: I think that contributed to it.

1029
00:49:26,102 --> 00:49:28,462
Speaker 4: I just couldn't find my groove and I just couldn't

1030
00:49:28,462 --> 00:49:31,421
Speaker 4: say what I and I also my medication. I'd had

1031
00:49:31,422 --> 00:49:34,181
Speaker 4: too much tea, so I was feeling very sort of

1032
00:49:34,302 --> 00:49:36,302
Speaker 4: jittery something.

1033
00:49:38,022 --> 00:49:40,221
Speaker 1: Thanks for making me feel better, but I think it.

1034
00:49:40,142 --> 00:49:40,542
Speaker 5: Was just me.

1035
00:49:40,741 --> 00:49:41,421
Speaker 3: What was your best?

1036
00:49:41,542 --> 00:49:44,421
Speaker 4: My best is very superficial and it is my hair.

1037
00:49:45,142 --> 00:49:47,941
Speaker 4: Never in my life would I've ever said my hair

1038
00:49:48,062 --> 00:49:51,861
Speaker 4: is my best. I don't think my hair is exceptional hair,

1039
00:49:52,221 --> 00:49:57,341
Speaker 4: but in terms of my hair's individual life cycle and

1040
00:49:57,382 --> 00:50:01,022
Speaker 4: how I have felt about my hair during my life,

1041
00:50:01,701 --> 00:50:04,181
Speaker 4: I'm really happy with it at the moment. If a

1042
00:50:04,261 --> 00:50:08,301
Speaker 4: color our colorist l who cuts O colors my hair

1043
00:50:08,342 --> 00:50:11,102
Speaker 4: and your hair and Holy's hair, now, I just leave

1044
00:50:11,142 --> 00:50:13,261
Speaker 4: it to her. I'm one of those people that are like,

1045
00:50:13,862 --> 00:50:15,221
Speaker 4: what do you think it looks great?

1046
00:50:15,342 --> 00:50:15,942
Speaker 1: She just does it.

1047
00:50:16,181 --> 00:50:18,262
Speaker 3: Yeah, I really like it. I think that that color

1048
00:50:18,342 --> 00:50:18,821
Speaker 3: is quite in.

1049
00:50:20,342 --> 00:50:22,021
Speaker 1: I don't even know what she does to the color.

1050
00:50:22,022 --> 00:50:22,902
Speaker 1: I have no input.

1051
00:50:23,261 --> 00:50:25,142
Speaker 4: I'm growing it a little bit, so I'm liking it.

1052
00:50:25,181 --> 00:50:26,781
Speaker 4: For a long time, I had it quite short and

1053
00:50:26,822 --> 00:50:30,782
Speaker 4: Bobby and I'm using I bought a dice and air straight,

1054
00:50:30,862 --> 00:50:33,942
Speaker 4: which I'm no I'm converting everybody.

1055
00:50:33,542 --> 00:50:34,261
Speaker 1: To you know that.

1056
00:50:34,382 --> 00:50:36,261
Speaker 5: I came into the office a few months ago and

1057
00:50:36,342 --> 00:50:37,861
Speaker 5: you just looked at me and said, you need a

1058
00:50:37,902 --> 00:50:39,622
Speaker 5: dyceon estray to everyone.

1059
00:50:39,622 --> 00:50:41,582
Speaker 4: And I don't want to make my recommendation because it's

1060
00:50:41,622 --> 00:50:43,461
Speaker 4: really expensive and I don't want people to feel bad.

1061
00:50:43,502 --> 00:50:46,821
Speaker 1: It's like seven hundred dollars. Apparently the shar is really good.

1062
00:50:47,221 --> 00:50:48,982
Speaker 4: What exactly, I'm sure there are dupes, but what it

1063
00:50:49,022 --> 00:50:50,982
Speaker 4: does is that it blow dries your hair and straightens

1064
00:50:51,022 --> 00:50:53,222
Speaker 4: it at the same time, and it goes from wet

1065
00:50:53,342 --> 00:50:53,741
Speaker 4: to dry.

1066
00:50:54,102 --> 00:50:55,022
Speaker 1: Yeah, all in white.

1067
00:50:55,022 --> 00:50:56,982
Speaker 5: And you know how some people like you and me,

1068
00:50:57,342 --> 00:51:00,502
Speaker 5: we're just never being good at doing I no, no, no, no.

1069
00:51:00,342 --> 00:51:03,182
Speaker 1: No no no, It's just not something. And I'm not interested

1070
00:51:03,181 --> 00:51:04,021
Speaker 1: in getting blow dryes.

1071
00:51:04,062 --> 00:51:06,582
Speaker 4: I hate going to the hairdresser, so it's now become

1072
00:51:06,622 --> 00:51:08,382
Speaker 4: my I would save it in a fire purchase. So

1073
00:51:08,422 --> 00:51:11,742
Speaker 4: the combination of my mine Air Straight and Elle has

1074
00:51:11,781 --> 00:51:13,262
Speaker 4: just been making me very happy.

1075
00:51:13,982 --> 00:51:16,622
Speaker 2: That's all we have time for today. A big thank

1076
00:51:16,661 --> 00:51:19,862
Speaker 2: you to you the out louders for listening to today's show.

1077
00:51:20,261 --> 00:51:22,941
Speaker 2: We will be back in your ears next week.

1078
00:51:23,102 --> 00:51:24,502
Speaker 1: Maya, do you want me to read us out?

1079
00:51:24,622 --> 00:51:24,781
Speaker 5: Yes?

1080
00:51:24,982 --> 00:51:25,902
Speaker 1: I do, Okay.

1081
00:51:26,102 --> 00:51:27,861
Speaker 4: A big thank you to our team, who we will

1082
00:51:27,862 --> 00:51:32,782
Speaker 4: now name Group Executive Producer Ruth Divine. Executive producer Emmeline Gazillas.

1083
00:51:32,822 --> 00:51:35,502
Speaker 4: Our audio producer is Leah porg Just, our video producer

1084
00:51:35,542 --> 00:51:38,222
Speaker 4: is Josh Green. Our interns at Tessa and Coco.

1085
00:51:38,462 --> 00:51:40,821
Speaker 2: And if you are looking for something else to listen to,

1086
00:51:41,022 --> 00:51:44,942
Speaker 2: may I suggest yesterday's very naughty subscriber episode. It was

1087
00:51:44,982 --> 00:51:46,261
Speaker 2: so naughty we couldn't do it here.

1088
00:51:46,302 --> 00:51:47,661
Speaker 1: We're a bit inspired by butter.

1089
00:51:47,701 --> 00:51:49,622
Speaker 2: A little bit, a little bit. Have you seen Baby

1090
00:51:49,622 --> 00:51:50,342
Speaker 2: Go yet a million?

1091
00:51:50,422 --> 00:51:50,622
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1092
00:51:50,701 --> 00:51:52,102
Speaker 1: Loved it, loved.

1093
00:51:51,781 --> 00:51:52,502
Speaker 3: It, Thank you.

1094
00:51:52,942 --> 00:51:56,062
Speaker 2: So we have a theory that a I'm trying to

1095
00:51:56,062 --> 00:51:59,382
Speaker 2: think how many letters it has in cases listening letters.

1096
00:51:59,542 --> 00:52:01,742
Speaker 1: Type of sexual act is back.

1097
00:52:02,142 --> 00:52:05,781
Speaker 2: It's going to be big of the digital the digital variety.

1098
00:52:05,902 --> 00:52:08,181
Speaker 2: There is an act that's back, and apparently there is

1099
00:52:08,221 --> 00:52:11,821
Speaker 2: one generation that is having the best sex. And we

1100
00:52:12,221 --> 00:52:14,542
Speaker 2: have a very sexy discussion we do. So you can

1101
00:52:14,582 --> 00:52:16,342
Speaker 2: listen to that by the link in the show notes.

1102
00:52:16,542 --> 00:52:18,142
Speaker 2: Bye bye.

1103
00:52:18,542 --> 00:52:21,821
Speaker 1: Shout out to any Muma Maya subscribers listening. If you

1104
00:52:21,982 --> 00:52:24,342
Speaker 1: love the show and want to support us as well,

1105
00:52:24,542 --> 00:52:26,941
Speaker 1: subscribing to Mom and Maya is the very best way

1106
00:52:26,942 --> 00:52:28,982
Speaker 1: to do so. There is a link in the episode

1107
00:52:29,062 --> 00:52:29,502
Speaker 1: description